893: Testosterone

Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth has ordered everyone over 30 in the military to have their testosterone tested. That inspired us to rerun this classic episode where everyone at This American Life tested their testosterone and compared results. It did not lead to workplace harmony. Visit thisamericanlife.org/lifepartners https://thisamericanlife.supercast.com?utm_id=lifepartners&utm_source=rss&utm_medium=shownotes to sign up for our premium subscription. (00:00:00) Prologue: Host Ira Glass talks with producer Alex Blumberg, who explains that he wanted to do this show because of his conflicted relationship with his own testosterone. He tells Ira that the reasons go back to a girl in his 8th-grade homeroom. We also hear from a man who stopped producing testosterone due to a medical treatment, and found his entire personality was altered. (10 minutes) (00:10:45) Act One: What’s it like to get injected with testosterone? When Griffin Hansbury transitioned, he got massive shots of it and was surprised at the effect it had on him. (17 minutes) (00:27:56) Act Two: The men and women on staff at This American Life decide to get their testosterone levels tested to see who has the most and least, and whether personality traits actually match hormone levels. (13 minutes) (00:40:16) Act Three: What happens when a man suddenly loses all of his testosterone? We return to Alex Blumberg’s interview from the top of the show with a man who that happened to. He says life without testosterone is life without desire. By that he doesn’t mean sexual desire. He means any desire. (6 minutes) (00:46:47) Act Four: Novelist Miriam Toews interviews her 15-year-old son, someone at an age when boys experience a jolt of ten or twenty times the testosterone they had as children, about all the things she doesn’t understand about what he’s going through. (11 minutes) Transcripts are available at thisamericanlife.org https://www.thisamericanlife.org/893/transcript / This American Life privacy policy https://www.thisamericanlife.org/page/privacy-policy. / Learn more about sponsor message choices https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Ira Glass?

  Hey, it's Ira with a quick word before the show starts. So I have this video that I want to show you. Maybe you heard, because we did so many promos, actually, that we just did this live show onstage in Los Angeles where I told stories and then Vic McAlister and these really talented comedians did improvised scenes based on those stories on the spot. And we livestreamed video of this show. And I'm just here to say that if you missed the livestream, you can now see the show. We have posted the video online. It's a really fun show. And to watch this for absolutely free, sign up for a free trial This American Life Partners subscription. And our hope is, you know, you'll stick around after the trial and that you'll love all

• 0:42Ira Glass?

  the bonus episodes and listening ad-free and all the other stuff we give you. Plus, we hope you'll like helping us make the show by sending us this money. But if you don't, if you just want the free trial, watch the video, try it out for a couple of days, quit, no foul, fine with us, and I think you're really going to enjoy watching the show we did. Go to thisamericanlife.org/lifepartners and use the-- this is a very, very original promo code we came up with-- video. That's right. The promo code is video. That link is also in the show notes. OK, here's this week's show.

• 1:20Speaker 01

  Support for This American Life and the following message come from Capella University. You know that feeling when there's a spark building inside you, that you were meant for more? That's your own drive pushing you towards what's next. Capella University gets that. With their FlexPath learning format, you can set the pace and earn your degree without putting life on pause. You've built experience and know what you're capable of. Now, this is your time to turn that momentum into more. The only real question is, what can't you do? Learn more at capella.edu.

• 1:50Ira Glass?

  From WBZ Chicago, it's This American Life. I'm Ira Glass. OK, so maybe you saw on the news that Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth has ordered everybody in the armed services over 30 years old to have their testosterone levels tested. That's men and women both. And then anybody who wants to get special shots to get a testosterone boost, they can get them. The goal here? Hegseth's social media post about this was titled "The High-T, High Testosterone, Department of War." And maybe you saw, people had all kinds of reactions to this, including lots of people joking about how Hegseth was suddenly embracing gender-affirming care. I personally had a strong reaction to the idea of testing everybody's testosterone

• 2:32Ira Glass?

  levels in a workplace, which was, I've lived through that. Here, at my job, at This American Life, we did that. Back in 2002, we did a show where we talked about testosterone and the personality traits that supposedly go along with higher testosterone levels. And as part of that show, all of us on staff got our testosterone levels tested to see who had the highest. And then before the results came back, we all sat down and discussed who we thought might have the highest, and then we revealed the results. Anyway, today, as a cautionary tale to the men and women of the armed services about what it's like for an entire workplace to test their testosterone, we are rerunning that old show. Our staff experiment, you'll hear, comes up a little ways into the show. It's Act Two.

• 3:15Ira Glass?

  But the original episode started with one of our producers at the time, Alex Blumberg, joining me in studio to explain why we took up the subject in the first place, back in 2002.

• 3:25Speaker 02

  Hello, Ira.

• 3:27Ira Glass?

  Alex?

• 3:28Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 3:29Ira Glass?

  What's the reason for this week's show?

• 3:31Speaker 02

  Well, I've been thinking about that. And for me, the reason for today's program goes back to a book I read when I was 15 called The Women's Room. Maybe, maybe people listening will remember The Women's Room. It was a, it was a sort of a seminal feminist novel from the 70s. And I first came across The Women's Room when I was digging through my parents' bookshelves looking for porn, you know, books with naughty parts in them, you know, like Fear of Flying. And so I picked it up and I read it.

• 4:06Ira Glass?

  Because the word "women" was in the title.

• 4:08Speaker 02

  In lipstick, probably, or maybe not. Yes. It's incredibly polemical. Like, it describes basically a group of women, sort of going from the 50s through the 60s. And they sort of all suffer at the hands of the various men in their lives. And, you know, there's constantly, you know, there's like, you know, women are slowly being driven crazy by their husbands' incessant criticism, or they're being called ugly after they get mastectomies, or they're being stifled by their husbands' emotional shallowness.

• 4:43Ira Glass?

  And I noticed you happened to have brought into the studio with you today a copy of The Women's Room.

• 4:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I recently reread it just to see, just to see, for example, I sort of bookmarked a couple of these things. You know, on page 198, the narrator comes in and she says, you know, "You think I hate men? I guess I do." And then a little bit further down, she says, "My feelings about men are the result of my experience. I have little sympathy for them. Like a Jew just released from Dachau, I watched the handsome young Nazi soldier fall writhing to the ground with a bullet in his stomach. And I look briefly and walk on. I don't even need to shrug. I simply don't care." And then a little bit later, "My hatred is learned from experience. That is not prejudice. I wish it were prejudice.

• 5:34Speaker 02

  Then, perhaps, I could unlearn it." There's not very much pornographic about that. It's an incredibly strange thing to read this book at that age, because at that age, I felt like, you know, there's one other woman who sort of comes into play at this point, and that's, I probably shouldn't say her name, let's just call her, you know, let's just call her Kelly. And she was like in eighth grade with me, and she sat two rows away from me. And I remember one time, like, sitting in homeroom with her and seeing, like, the, you

• 6:16Speaker 02

  know, like, her button-down shirt was open a little bit, and I could catch the bare sliver of her little training bra. And it was like, perhaps, the most desire I've ever felt in my life, maybe. I mean, it was just, it was like all-consuming, and I couldn't, I mean, I couldn't concentrate for the rest of the day. I remember it to this day. And so at the time I was reading this book, I felt like, oh, my god, this is what, this is, like, I could see myself becoming the people that she was describing, the men she was describing. And it was really terrifying.

• 6:58Speaker 02

  My testosterone and how it affects me and how I react to it, I think about on a daily basis all the time. It often feels like there's a, there's something in my body giving me instructions that I probably shouldn't follow.

• 7:16Ira Glass?

  OK, which brings us to today's program. A while back, Alex tried to convince all of us who work on the radio show that we should do an entire program about testosterone. And I have to say, none of us were really buying it, especially the women, who found the subject dull, even though, as Alex tried to point out to them, women have testosterone, and it affects them pretty much exactly the same way that it affects men. I think all of us were fearing a kind of men are from Mars, women are from Venus sort of thing, how hormones make men be all aggressive and women all non-aggressive in very stereotyped

• 7:59Ira Glass?

  ways, which all seem kind of reductionistic and dumbheaded. And then Alex started reading and calling people. And one of the people that he called was this guy who wrote an article for GQ magazine about what happened to him when, because of medical reasons, he stopped producing testosterone. And for four months, he lived without testosterone before they caught the problem. And the way he described living without testosterone was really incredible.

• 8:23Speaker 03

  Everything that I identify as being me, my ambition, my interest in things, my sense of humor, the inflection in my voice, I mean, the quality of my speech even changed in the time that I was without a lot of the hormone. So, yes, the introduction of testosterone returned everything. There were things that I found offensive about my own personality that were disconnected then, you know? And it was nice to be without them.

• 9:08Speaker 03

  Envy, the desire to judge itself, you know? I approached people with a humility that I had never displayed before. I grew up in a culture, like all of us, that divides the soul from the body, and that that is your singleness, that is your uniqueness. And then I go through this experience where I have small amounts of a bodily chemical removed and then reintroduced.

• 9:49Speaker 03

  And it changes everything I know as myself. And it violates the sanctity of that understanding, you know? And that's humbling. And it's terrifying.

• 10:03Ira Glass?

  I think when it comes to this stuff, most of us do not know what to believe. We're caught between thinking that our hormones and body chemistry can determine so much about our personalities, and wanting to believe that they don't. And so today on our program, we bring you four stories exploring that question. How much does testosterone determine? Act One of our show, Infinite Gent, someone gets pumped up with several times the amount of testosterone that most men have and describes some surprising changes. Act Two, Contest Osterone. In that act, at Alex's suggestion, all of us on the staff of this radio program decide

• 10:48Ira Glass?

  to find out who has the most and who has the least testosterone with lab tests, to see how the levels match with our personality traits. An exercise, I have to say, most of us at this point would not recommend that you try at your workplace or with your friends. Act Three, Life at Zero, in which we hear about what it means to lose all your testosterone. Act Four, Learning to Shut Up. In that act, a mother asks her teenage son all her questions about what it means to be a boy, which is, of course, exactly the sort of thing you do not want your mother asking you on tape at 15. Stay with us.

• 11:34Speaker 04

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• 11:38Speaker 05

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• 11:54Speaker 01

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• 12:26Speaker 02

  It's This American Life, Act One, Infinite Gent.

• 12:31Speaker 02

  So what exactly does an injection of testosterone do to you? What kind of changes do you feel? Back in 2002, when we first broadcast today's show, our producer Alex Blumberg talked with Griffin Hansberry about that experience. Griffin got massive testosterone shots as part of transitioning from female to male, which Griffin did after he got out of college. I should say that because it's been over 20 years since this interview happened, you might notice some ideas about gender and some language that are of its time. Also, a quick heads up to listeners that the interview acknowledges the existence of sex and sexual desire.

• 13:04Speaker 06

  I went to Bryn Mawr College, which is a women's college, and chose a women's college because I strongly identified as a woman at the time, as a feminist, and as a dyke. I had my leather biker jacket and my big leather belt and my black t-shirts and my Doc Marten boots, you know, my combat boots.

• 13:32Speaker 06

  And that felt pretty comfortable for a while. And then my sophomore year in college, I was lying in bed with my girlfriend. I don't know if we were talking or what it was, and it just sort of hit me like a bolt of lightning, as they say, and I just knew that I had to change my body. And so I started doing the research on it, and the only way to do that was to take testosterone. My first injection was a pretty large one of 2 cc's of 200-milligram-strength depot testosterone, which is a fairly high amount.

• 14:12Speaker 06

  Just to give you a sense of how much that is, the average amount of testosterone in an average male body is between 300 and 1,000 nanograms per deciliter of blood. After that shot, and after an average shot, my testosterone levels go up to over 2,000 nanograms per deciliter, so that I have the testosterone of two high testosterone men in my body at once.

• 14:39Speaker 02

  You have the testosterone of two linebackers.

• 14:41Speaker 06

  Exactly.

• 14:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:43Speaker 06

  Exactly. That's a lot. It's a lot of T. And what's amazing about it is how instantaneous it is, that it happens within a few days, really. The world just, you know, changes.

• 14:58Speaker 02

  What were some of the changes that you didn't expect?

• 15:03Speaker 06

  The most overwhelming feeling is the incredible increase in libido and change in the way that I perceived women and the way I thought about sex. Before testosterone, I would be riding the subway, which is the traditional hotbed of lust in the city. And I would see a woman on the subway, and I would think, you know, she's attractive. I'd like to meet her. You know, what's that book she's reading? I could talk to her. This is what I would say. There would be a narrative. There would be this stream of language. It would be very verbal. After testosterone, there was no narrative. There was no language whatsoever.

• 15:45Speaker 06

  It was just, I would see a woman who was attractive or not attractive. She might have an attractive quality, you know, nice ankles or something, and the rest of her would be fairly unappealing to me. But that was enough to basically just flood my mind with aggressive pornographic images, just one after another. It was like being in a pornographic movie house, you know, in my mind, and I couldn't turn it off. I mean, I could not turn it off. Everything I looked at, everything I touched turned to sex. I was an editorial assistant, and I would be standing at the Xerox machine, and this big, shuddering, warm, inanimate object would just drive me crazy. It was very erotic to me.

• 16:30Speaker 02

  The Xerox machine?

• 16:31Speaker 06

  The Xerox machine, you know, or a car. I would see, I remember walking up Fifth Avenue one day, and this red convertible went by. It was a Mustang. And I remember just getting this jolt in my pants, this very physical, visceral, sexual reaction to seeing a red convertible.

• 16:48Speaker 02

  What did you do with that? I mean, what did you think?

• 16:52Speaker 06

  Well, I felt like a monster a lot of the time, and it made me understand men. It made me understand adolescent boys a lot. You know, suddenly, you know, hair is sprouting, and I'm turning into this beast. And I would really kind of berate myself for it. I remember walking up Fifth Avenue, and there was a woman walking in front of me, and she was wearing this little skirt and this little top, and I was looking at her ass. You know, I kept saying to myself, don't look at it, don't look at it, and I kept looking at it. And I walked past her, and this voice in my head kept saying, turn around, to look at her breasts, turn around, turn around, turn around.

• 17:33Speaker 06

  And my feminist, female background kept saying, you know, don't you dare, you pig, don't turn around. And, you know, I fought myself for a whole block, and then I turned around and checked her out. And before, it was cool. When I would do a poetry reading, I would get up and I would read these poems about, you know, women on the street. And I was a butch dyke, and that was very, very cutting-edge, and that was very sexy and raw. And now I'm just a jerk, you know? So I do feel like I've lost this edge, you know, this nice sort of avant-garde kind of...

• 18:16Speaker 06

  And I've gotten into a lot of arguments with women friends, coworkers, who did not know about my past as a female. You know, I call myself a post-feminist, and I had a woman say, you're not a post-feminist, you're a misogynist. And I said, you know, that's impossible. I can't be a misogynist. And I couldn't explain to her, you know, how I had come to this point in my life. And to her, I was just a misogynist. And that's unfortunate, because it's a lot more complicated than that.

• 18:52Speaker 02

  I'll say. Wow. Testosterone didn't just turn you into a man, it turned you into Rush Limbaugh.

• 18:58Speaker 06

  I know. That I was not expecting. That I was not expecting. So I had to relearn how to talk to women, and I had to learn how to rephrase things, how to hold my tongue on certain things. And I'm not very good at it, so I get in trouble.

• 19:15Speaker 02

  That is so fascinating, that... Because, I mean, as a man, I think, from the time I went through puberty, I feel like that's something that I've been learning to do, in a certain way, is just figure out, like, how to say things without getting myself in trouble.

• 19:34Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah.

• 19:35Speaker 02

  It's like, I would not have thought that you would have had that problem.

• 19:38Speaker 06

  Right. Because I should know better, or something.

• 19:40Speaker 02

  Or something.

• 19:43Speaker 02

  Are there other ways that you, like, other than the visual and other than the libidinal, are there other ways that you feel like testosterone has altered the way you feel or perceive?

• 19:59Speaker 06

  Something that happened after I started taking testosterone, I became interested in science. I was never interested in science before.

• 20:08Speaker 02

  No way. Come on. Are you serious?

• 20:10Speaker 06

  I'm serious. I'm serious. Now...

• 20:14Speaker 02

  You're just setting us back 100 years, sir.

• 20:16Speaker 06

  I know I am. I know.

• 20:19Speaker 06

  I mean, again, and I have to have this caveat in here. I cannot say it was the testosterone. All I can say is that this interest happened after T. You know, there's BT and AT, and this was definitely after T. And I became interested in science. I found myself understanding physics in a way I never had before.

• 20:43Speaker 06

  It's true. It's true.

• 20:45Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 20:46Speaker 06

  I did.

• 20:50Speaker 02

  How about in the way you feel things and in the way you perceive of your feelings? Is there any change there?

• 21:00Speaker 06

  I have a hard time crying. It's very difficult for me to cry. And before testosterone, it was great to, you know, if I was frustrated, angry, or sad, have a good cry. You'd feel better afterwards. And I do wonder if there isn't a chemical component behind it, because I now have a hard time doing it, and it's very frustrating. What I will do is when I feel that pressure build up, I'll go into my room, I'll close the door, and force myself, I just have to force myself to cry. And the quality of the crying is different than the quality of the crying was before T. It's very dry.

• 21:41Speaker 06

  I find myself sort of moaning and sobbing, but with very little tears.

• 21:48Speaker 02

  You've answered a lot of questions for us today.

• 21:53Ira Glass?

  It reinforced a lot of stereotypes that we've always dispelled with.

• 21:55Speaker 06

  I know.

• 21:58Speaker 06

  I know I have. I know.

• 22:01Ira Glass?

  Did you have an idea of what kind of man you were going to be before the transition? This is my model. Who was it?

• 22:12Speaker 06

  I used to watch a lot of Beverly Hills 90210, and Jason Priestley was like my ideal, at least, you know, sort of physically. I mean, I wanted sideburns so bad. And they were-- that was the first facial hair that came in. I got these beautiful sideburns. So it was sort of like the James Dean, Jason Priestley kind of model, I think. That didn't quite materialize. I was better at that as a dyke than I am as a man, I have to say.

• 22:44Ira Glass?

  And is that-- how do you feel about it? Is that like sort of a--

• 22:46Speaker 06

  It's a bit of a disappointment. It's a bit of a disappointment.

• 22:53Speaker 06

  I often ask people, what kind of a guy am I? What do you see? And unfortunately, people often respond that they see a nerd, which I never was before. I was always really kind of cool and popular and hip and whatever. And now I'm five foot four, and I work out, but I'm not real muscular, and I'm pretty small. I'm pale-skinned, and my hair started to thin, and I've got glasses. And of course, I'm also-- I'm a sensitive

• 23:34Speaker 06

  guy now. I used to be the butch dyke, and I was seen as very aggressive. And I was more masculine, in many ways, outwardly, anyway, before testosterone. And now I don't have to prove anything, so I can sort of lay back and talk with my hands and, you know--

• 23:55Speaker 06

  All that stuff that you're not supposed to do. So I'm still very much learning how to be a man in the world. There's a lot to learn. Men-- walking the street is a constant battle. It's a constant contest. I began to notice, once I started to pass as a man, that single men, walking alone down the street, will veer away from their path to walk towards me, sort of get in my space, and then veer back. And it's very much like a little aggressive move. I've had men, just sort of angry guys, walking the street,

• 24:33Speaker 06

  just body-check me. So I really feel like I have to sort of puff myself up so that people will keep their distance a little bit. But if I'm off-guard, and I'm walking around, and I'm sort of enjoying the scenery, it's pretty much guaranteed that somebody will shove me.

• 24:55Ira Glass?

  Were there specific things that you were hoping for?

• 24:58Speaker 06

  I think that the main thing that you hope for, that one hopes for, and that I hope for when starting testosterone, was to pass as male, to be perceived by the world as a man. But I do have a sort of love-hate relationship with passing, that my whole deeper self becomes invisible, and my history becomes invisible. And I think that's hard. It's a hard place to be.

• 25:22Ira Glass?

  Right, right.

• 25:23Speaker 06

  Especially because I-- when I got my first job as a man, I didn't know anything about my past. It was very corporate. So I sort of had to let go of any edgy clothing and facial hair and whatnot that I had before, and I became really boring. I mean, I felt like, wow, people must think I'm really boring if they only knew that I'm so fascinating.

• 25:49Speaker 06

  Throughout those four, almost four years, I had to conceal a lot. I would lie about where I went to college, because I went to Bryn Mawr, and I couldn't say I went to Bryn Mawr.

• 26:00Ira Glass?

  What college did you say you went to?

• 26:03Speaker 06

  Well, Bryn Mawr is in a bi-college relationship with Haverford College. And so I would say I went to Haverford, which is kind of-- I don't want to say anything bad about Haverford. Some of my best friends went there. But I think Bryn Mawr is a superior school to Haverford. I do. And I think it's a superior education. And when I have to say I went to Haverford, it's like a little knife in my heart. But no offense to my Haverford friends.

• 26:36Ira Glass?

  What do you feel like the biggest thing that you do miss is?

• 26:43Speaker 06

  Maybe the close relationships that I had with women. I still have close relationships with the women I've known since before tea, but I don't make close relationships with new female friends. It's hard to do. There's a barrier. So I kind of miss being part of a cool bunch of women. I actually like women better than men. It just so happens that I fit in more as a man, you know? But I think women are really cool. You know, sisterhood is powerful, all that stuff. So--

• 27:23Ira Glass?

  Yeah, yeah. And what do you think is the biggest thing you've gained?

• 27:27Speaker 06

  Biggest thing I've gained? You know, it's just so great when people call me sir. Even after seven years, I don't always hear it, but it still rings a little bell inside my heart, you know, like, oh, sir. It's wonderful. And it's something that, when I was a little kid, I used to wish for, and turned me into a boy, Pinocchio. And you never really think it's possible, but it is possible. And the other nice thing about it is, knowing that that's possible, that you can actually make this enormous leap, means that, well, then anything else must be possible, too, because this is certainly, you know, unbelievable.

• 28:16Ira Glass?

  Griffin Hansberry is a psychoanalyst and the author of the novel Some Strange Music Draws Me In. That conversation with Alex Blumberg happened over 20 years ago, during his early transition, back in 2002. When we reached out to him today, he told us that he would describe some of these experiences differently now, the way he talked about gender, and also the way he talked about looking at women's bodies. In retrospect, he says, it wasn't just the testosterone affecting him when he was looking at women. He says he'd also absorbed a lot of very traditional messages about masculinity. Overall, he said, he wouldn't want listeners to come away thinking that testosterone, by itself, explained so much about men's relationships with women, and so much about desire.

• 29:23Ira Glass?

  Coming up, who has the most testosterone? The slightly femmy host of a public radio program, his staff, or a gay man in New York City? Answer in a minute from Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.

• 29:39Speaker 05

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• 29:58Ira Glass?

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• 30:31Speaker 01

  Support for This American Life and the following message come from Capella University. You know that feeling when there's a spark building inside you, that you were meant for more? That's your own drive pushing you towards what's next. Capella University gets that. With their FlexPath learning format, you can set the pace and earn your degree without putting life on pause. You've built experience and know what you're capable of. Now, this is your time to turn that momentum into more. The only real question is, what can't you do? Learn more at capella.edu.

• 31:03Ira Glass?

  It's This American Life. I'm Ira Glass. Today's show is one that we're rerunning because of the news that Pete Hegseth is ordering everybody in the military over 30 years old to have their testosterone tested, and offering extra testosterone to anybody who's scores low. As I said at the beginning of the show, back in 2002, we did an episode where everyone in our workplace had their testosterone tested, in an episode about testosterone, and just how much testosterone determines our personalities and fates. We rejoin that episode now with Act Two of the program. Act Two, Contest Osterone. At some point in putting together this week's radio show, Alex, who you heard a lot of in the first half of our program, suggested that it might be a fun thing to

• 31:45Ira Glass?

  do, and might illustrate some interesting principles about testosterone, if everybody on the radio staff would get their testosterone level checked. We could each predict who would come out as number one, number two, and so forth, based on their personalities. And then we would compare the results with what each of us had predicted. Since men always have a lot more testosterone than women, we would do two rankings, one for the men, one for the women. We invited two of our regular contributors, David Rakoff and Sarah Vowell, to take part with us, making it five men and four women in all. It turns out to be remarkably easy to get your testosterone assessed. You spit into a little tube twice a day and send it to a lab, in our case, the Yerkes National Primate Research Center.

• 32:27Ira Glass?

  And I think it was Jonathan and Starlee, producers on our show, who you sometimes hear doing stories on the air, who pointed out first that the entire enterprise might not be such a good idea. I just think we're opening a hole. Can-- The worms here that we don't want to be doing.

• 32:44Speaker 07

  It's all very-- well, this whole thing's kind of a mess diplomatic-wise.

• 32:48Speaker 06

  How so?

• 32:49Ira Glass?

  Like, either, you know, I mean, either we'll walk away from this finding out that Starlee has more testosterone than I do, and she'll end up being incredibly upset, and I'll be upset, and everyone will just be upset. You know what I mean? What do we hope to gain, really, from all of this? This whole thing is going to lead to heartbreak somehow.

• 33:09Speaker 07

  I've been thinking a lot about it, and I can't really decide whether I want to have more or if I want to have less.

• 33:15Ira Glass?

  This is Wendy, another producer.

• 33:17Speaker 07

  I don't know. Like, having more makes me seem like an asshole.

• 33:25Speaker 07

  And having not enough makes me seem like a pushover sucker.

• 33:30Speaker 06

  For the men, I think it'll be a big deal.

• 33:32Ira Glass?

  This is Julie, the senior producer of our program.

• 33:35Speaker 06

  I think it'll change all your interactions with each other. You'll know when you're talking to each other, who beat you. I think it'll change everything.

• 33:44Ira Glass?

  Nonetheless, we marched toward the abyss. To find out what personality traits actually correlate with high testosterone and low testosterone, we check with somebody who's done a lot of research on the subject: James Dabs of Georgia State University, author of a book called Heroes, Rogues, and Lovers: Testosterone and Behavior.

• 34:01Speaker 05

  The most simple thing I would say is it leads to a certain boldness and fearlessness and confidence in a person's behavior. They tend to focus upon what they do, move forward with less conflict. The downside is, they don't pay attention to things going on around them, so they get blindsided by accidents and other things going on.

• 34:25Ira Glass?

  What are some of the misconceptions you run into?

• 34:27Speaker 05

  Well, they think it makes them manly and heroic and virile and sexual, which is not really true. It doesn't take much testosterone to have sex, so that-- I mean, that's sort of beside the point.

• 34:43Ira Glass?

  What scientific studies can tell us is that, in general, more testosterone does not mean you're a more successful person. In fact, blue-collar workers tend to have more testosterone than white-collar workers. And unemployed men have more than either group. Actors in trial lawyers, people who basically go on stage in one way or another, tend to have very high testosterone levels. Higher testosterone correlates with baldness and with bigger muscles. And researchers say that people with lots of testosterone have a wolfish smile, and people with less testosterone have a kinder smile, and they smile more often, as if to say, "Don't hurt me." Testosterone goes up when you score a victory at something, it goes down when you suffer

• 35:25Ira Glass?

  a defeat. In one study of World Cup soccer fans watching a match on television, testosterone dropped in fans of the losing team and rose in the fans of the winning team.

• 35:35Speaker 05

  For people, there's not a lot of difference between being in the contest and watching the contest. We can empathize with it so well.

• 35:43Ira Glass?

  So what would all this mean for our radio staff? Well, when it came to predicting which of the women would have the highest testosterone, there was a clear majority in the voting. Here are Sarah Vowell, Todd, our production manager, and Wendy weighing in.

• 35:56Speaker 07

  Julie will win. Julie's tough. She can certainly push me around sometimes. I think Julie has the most because she is the boldest of all of us, right? Like, she says the boldest things.

• 36:10Ira Glass?

  When we're all together in the same place, it is clearly Julie who is the alpha of the whole group. Though, at some point in putting together this week's radio show, Alex and Julie sat down in a studio, and he asked her to predict which women would have the highest testosterone. And here's how she lined it up.

• 36:26Speaker 06

  Wendy first, and then Starlee, and then Sarah, I guess.

• 36:34Ira Glass?

  And then?

• 36:35Speaker 06

  And then me. Just passive me.

• 36:39Ira Glass?

  Yeah.

• 36:40Speaker 06

  Just taking it easy. Girlie, girlie me. Just being feminine over here in the corner. Honestly, who do I think?

• 36:48Ira Glass?

  Yeah.

• 36:51Speaker 06

  Well, I fear me.

• 36:53Ira Glass?

  What do you think it would mean if you won?

• 36:55Speaker 06

  Well, then, it would confirm all my worst suspicions about myself, that I'm really aggressive and pushy and sort of a hothead. I fear me.

• 37:06Ira Glass?

  Among the men, there was no favorite. You could kind of make an argument for any of the men on the staff. Todd likes sports, and he isn't such a bookworm softie like the rest of us on the staff. Alex plays a lot of sports, and he gets into fights on the basketball court. Jonathan is balding, and he has a lot of muscle, corresponds with testosterone. I host a national radio show, which must count for something, right? But when we sat down to talk about it, it wasn't really clear exactly what else should be taken into account. Here's Jonathan.

• 37:34Speaker 06

  I don't entirely understand how this whole testosterone thing works. It's like, who can yell the loudest, right? Who has the most rage? I have rage. I mean, unfortunately, it's like impotent rage. I don't know how that's going to rank.

• 37:47Ira Glass?

  And then, if the main thing the testosterone corresponds with is decisiveness, how does that swing the whole rating?

• 37:54Speaker 06

  I didn't realize that the whole decision-making thing came into--

• 37:59Ira Glass?

  Is it making--

• 38:00Speaker 06

  This whole testosterone thing, yeah.

• 38:01Ira Glass?

  Reevaluate?

• 38:02Speaker 06

  It's making it more complicated, yeah, because, I mean, I'm just filled with regret.

• 38:05Ira Glass?

  Again, Julie. Quick decisions, doesn't look back.

• 38:08Speaker 06

  It's very true.

• 38:09Ira Glass?

  Doesn't look back, I know. Same with Sarah.

• 38:12Speaker 06

  I look back like I'm looking--

• 38:13Ira Glass?

  I look back pretty much every single--

• 38:15Speaker 06

  Every single second of the day?

• 38:16Ira Glass?

  Every single--

• 38:16Speaker 06

  Every single-- I'm regretting what I'm saying right now.

• 38:18Ira Glass?

  Me, too. I'm filled with regret.

• 38:23Ira Glass?

  You're regretting it even as you say it?

• 38:25Speaker 06

  Even now, even now, even now.

• 38:37Ira Glass?

  And then there's the question of David Rakoff. He's gay and a fan of Martha Stewart. But he's also balding, and he's worked as a professional actor, which both correspond with high testosterone levels. So how do you figure that one out?

• 38:49Speaker 03

  The one thing I do worry about the testosterone is Alex told me to, when I did my spit, that I had to have some extra spearmint gum to activate my salivary glands.

• 39:01Ira Glass?

  Sure.

• 39:01Speaker 03

  But the only thing that I could find was extra Polar Ice, which has flavor crystals. And I worry that my sample might have flavor crystals in it.

• 39:12Speaker 03

  So, in fact, I might just simply be the most refreshing.

• 39:23Ira Glass?

  One notable difference between the men and the women: although none of the women wanted to have much testosterone, Alex, Todd, and I very, very much wanted to win. Jonathan claimed he did not want to win, but none of us believe him. And Rakoff also said that he had no interest in winning at all, but then proceeded immediately-- I mean, immediately-- to talk smack about his opponents in a very competitive way. And that was the state of things when we got our results from the lab just two days ago. All right, well, it is two days before our broadcast day. As I record this, our entire staff is on mic, plus contributors David Rakoff and Sarah Vowell in New York. Hello all.

• 39:59Speaker 07

  Hi.

• 39:59Speaker 06

  Hi.

• 40:00Ira Glass?

  And now for the results. I am opening the envelope.

• 40:09Ira Glass?

  Wow, that's fascinating.

• 40:12Ira Glass?

  Wow, that's just incredible. Okay, among the men, Rakoff is number one and has, like, twice the amount of testosterone of anybody in the group.

• 40:26Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 40:28Speaker 07

  Wow. I told you. I voted for you, Rakoff.

• 40:33Ira Glass?

  Oh, everybody's trying to get in with him now that he's number one.

• 40:38Ira Glass?

  Then, in order, the men are-- it's Rakoff, then Alex at number two, then me, like a point behind you, Alex, then Jonathan, and then Todd, all very closely grouped together.

• 40:50Speaker 06

  Wow, but Rakoff has twice as much.

• 40:52Ira Glass?

  As any of us, the gay, Canadian Jew living in Manhattan.

• 40:56Speaker 03

  Okay, we really have to dispense with the Canadian. But actually, that is non-corollary. Believe me.

• 41:05Ira Glass?

  What are the numbers exactly? What is it for-- what's Rakoff in? Rakoff is 274, you're 144, I'm 140.

• 41:13Speaker 07

  Oh, my god.

• 41:18Ira Glass?

  When I looked at the women's results in the envelope, even though she is seven months pregnant, Julie was on top, as we all suspected.

• 41:25Speaker 06

  Well, it's hard. It makes me feel really bossy and aggressive. Now, did they say that the pregnancy would affect it at all?

• 41:37Speaker 07

  She says, trying to make sure you get in that whole girly pregnancy thing.

• 41:42Speaker 06

  Yeah, the fact that I'm able to bear children. The greatest gift a woman can have.

• 41:50Ira Glass?

  I have to say, Wendy and Todd, the lowest-scoring woman and man on the staff, really did not seem very happy about this whole thing by the end. Todd, like most of the men on the staff, had never been seen as especially manly during his life, but he thought, maybe here, maybe here in this group, compared to the rest of us, he might at least stand a chance.

• 42:10Speaker 01

  Someone would be girlier than I. If I can't be the most manly in public radio, where the hell can I be the most manly? Like, I kind of wish this was SportsCenter, because then I'd be okay. Like, out of all my fellow staff members at SportsCenter, okay, I could be the one with the least testosterone. But in public radio--

• 42:27Speaker 03

  We should get them to spit. Is it a real place, SportsCenter? Is it a thing?

• 42:31Speaker 01

  Now, see, that's not fair. How can he, how can he have the most testosterone and not know what SportsCenter is? I know what SportsCenter is.

• 42:50Ira Glass?

  The people in our staff who scored low are feeling rather-- they're feeling terrible about it. What should I say to them?

• 42:56Speaker 05

  I know that. I hated to measure them. I just knew that would happen. It always happens. I told them that. Well, they are what they are. Are they in any way different?

• 43:10Ira Glass?

  After our test, James Dabs reminded me that it was important to remember that any individual person might not conform to the stereotypes of who has higher testosterone. It's not the final answer as to what you're like.

• 43:21Speaker 05

  I tested a stunt man in a movie set once, and he came out low in testosterone, was terribly unhappy about being low in testosterone. The fact is, he still was a stunt man and did all the work that other people couldn't do. So he shouldn't have been focusing upon that testosterone. I think to focus upon the testosterone is the wrong thing to do.

• 43:40Ira Glass?

  Now, when you tried to convince him that he shouldn't feel bad about it, did he find that persuasive at all?

• 43:45Speaker 05

  No. He was just unhappy.

• 43:54Ira Glass?

  James Dabs. I mentioned before that this is a rerun from years ago. In the years since we first broadcast this, James Dabs has died. Our friend David Rakoff has died, too, back in 2012.

• 44:24Ira Glass?

  Act Three, Life at Zero. Okay, so a life with very low testosterone. What might that mean? Well, the most extreme case imaginable is described in the GQ article that Alex read that was one of the inspirations for today's show that he talked about at the beginning of the program. The GQ writer very much describes testosterone as the hormone of desire. And by that, it doesn't mean sexual desire. It just means desire, period. He wrote about his experiences anonymously. Here's more of Alex's interview with him.

• 44:57Speaker 03

  When you have no testosterone, you have no desire. And when you have no desire, you don't have any content in your mind. You don't think about anything.

• 45:11Ira Glass?

  And during those months, how were you behaving? What was different?

• 45:16Speaker 03

  It wasn't that I was behaving. It was that I was not behaving at all. I was, when I was awake, literally sitting in bed and staring at the wall with neither interest nor disinterest for three, four hours at a time. If you'd had a camera in the room, you would have thought I was comatose. I would go out. I would buy some groceries early in the morning, and that would be it. My day had no content. I had no interest in even watching TV, much less reading the newspaper or a book. Food. I didn't want my food to taste good or interesting. And when you're blessed with that lack of desire, you can

• 46:00Speaker 03

  eat a loaf of Wonder Bread with mayonnaise, and that will be your day. And I only saw my girlfriend on weekends since she was living in New York and I was living in Philly. So I could get away with it five days at a time. And needless to say, there was absolutely no desire.

• 46:25Speaker 03

  You know, people who are deprived of testosterone don't become Spock-like and incredibly rational. They become nonsensical because they're unable to distinguish between what is and isn't interesting and what is worth noting and what isn't.

• 46:44Ira Glass?

  Describe your thoughts on your morning walk in this state.

• 46:48Speaker 03

  It's very quiet at 5:30, 6:00, 6:30 in the morning. And yeah, and I would see a brick in a wall, and I would think, a brick in a wall. I would see a pigeon and think, a pigeon. It's the most literal possible understanding of the world.

• 47:13Ira Glass?

  So in this time, when you're without testosterone, you're walking down the street, you're just sort of ticking things off, just making these very simple observations.

• 47:22Speaker 03

  Like a grocery list.

• 47:23Ira Glass?

  Yeah, like a grocery list, exactly. You also have a thought that comes to you all the time, right?

• 47:28Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 47:29Ira Glass?

  Talk about that.

• 47:31Speaker 03

  Which is a very strange sounding thing, which is, that is beautiful. Everything I saw, I thought, that is beautiful. Which is odd sounding, I know, because that sounds like the judgment of a person with passion. But it was the exact opposite. It was said-- it was thought and sometimes even said with complete dispassion, with objectivity. And you see, I was looking at absolutely everything, the most mundane sight in the world, a weed in the sidewalk, and thinking, oh, that's beautiful. The surgery scars on people's knees, the bolts in the hubcaps of cars, all of it. It just seemed to have purpose.

• 48:15Speaker 03

  And it was like, oh, that's beautiful. Everything is beautiful, from the bugs to the cracks in the sidewalk to the faces of other people. And it was automatic. Perhaps to see things objectively is to see them, all of them, as beautiful. But in the most-- you have to understand that the thought was expressed in the most flat-line, boring way possible. Oh, yeah, that's beautiful. That's beautiful.

• 48:55Speaker 03

  You know, you would think that this would be a terrible thing, a terrible state to be in. And for most people, it is. But it was weirdly pleasant. And there is a certain appeal, an impossible appeal, to that Rip Van Winkle existence of being without testosterone. You just have to remember that it doesn't matter if you have nothing, if you want nothing. It's very tricky to get inside that mindset. In some ways, it's difficult for me to even remember it now, but it had its allure.

• 49:32Ira Glass?

  Well, I can understand that because desire often feels like a burden. Like, it often feels like, if I just didn't want that thing, not having it wouldn't be so painful.

• 49:42Speaker 03

  There you go.

• 49:44Ira Glass?

  Yeah.

• 49:47Speaker 03

  All that wanting.

• 49:56Ira Glass?

  Act Four, Learning to Shut Up. Okay, so we started today's program with my coworker, Alex, remembering what it was like to be a 15-year-old boy. And we're going to end it now with another 15-year-old boy, someone who's experiencing the years when a boy's body is flooded with 10 or 20 times the hormones he has in early childhood, or more. And so much of this story is about his mother's questions about what that's like for him. His mom, Miriam Taves, tells the story.

• 50:23Speaker 04

  First off, his hair is red and shaggy and longish, and he's pale and slim and six feet tall. Music is everything to him, which makes sense because he's 15. I was 22 when he was born. I'd never had brothers or any close male relatives, and I'd always dreamed of having a brother or a son. The idea of having a boy in my family was strange and exotic. When he was born, it was like I had given birth to a llama or something. All my girlfriends came to visit me and him in the hospital, and I took them down to the second-floor nursery, and we stared at him in awe from behind a glass window. "That's him," I said, with the orange fuzz on his head. He was lying naked and spread-eagled under a bright heat lamp. He seemed very content. My friend Carol gasped and said,

• 51:08Speaker 04

  "Oh, my god, he's got the biggest balls I've ever seen in my life." We all started laughing our heads off, and then the nurse came and told us his scrotum would shrink to normal size in a few days. I haven't seen him naked in years, but it still often feels, when I look at him, that I'm gazing at an odd creature from behind a glass.

• 51:27Speaker 07

  So, do you think about girls?

• 51:30Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 51:32Speaker 07

  And, like, what do you think about them?

• 51:39Speaker 02

  Um, I don't know. Some of them are cool.

• 51:43Speaker 07

  Yeah? Like, so what makes them cool?

• 51:48Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 51:50Speaker 04

  All his life, Owen's been a quiet kid. Not sullen, but just rather silent. When he was a baby and I'd be pushing him around in his stroller, people would stop and crouch down and talk to him and expect him to laugh and smile. And all he'd do was sigh and stare at them. When he got a little older and went over to his friends' places to play, and it was time for him to go home, he just got up and walked right out the door to the car. He didn't say, "Hey, thanks for having me," or "Next time, we'll play at my place," or even "goodbye." We'd be driving home, and I'd be trying to explain to him that it seemed rude and that sometimes we just had to say certain things at certain times. It was polite and expected. He'd just sigh and nod and kick the dash or stick his head entirely out

• 52:31Speaker 04

  the window. But back then, I could kind of figure out what was going on in his head, even if--

• 52:37Speaker 07

  He didn't come right out and say it. Like, when he was three and he didn't want me to go out, instead of grabbing my leg or having a tantrum or something, he'd hide my shoes and then sit on the couch pretending to read the newspaper while I searched all over the place. When he was eight and angry and sitting in a tree and throwing stones at the car or something, I'd go outside, knowing it would be a matter of minutes before he'd start to cry, and then slowly spill his guts about whatever series of events it was that led to his meltdown, and that the whole scene would end with hugs and apologies, and probably a large muscle activity, like him cheerfully taking shots at my head with a soccer ball. Now, though, the signs are harder, if not impossible, to read. I'm not sure there are any, actually, and I have no idea where to begin my search.

• 53:24Speaker 07

  What do you think girls think about you when they think about you?

• 53:29Speaker 02

  I don't know. Nothing.

• 53:32Speaker 07

  You think, like, no girl ever thinks anything about you?

• 53:36Speaker 02

  Maybe. I don't know.

• 53:41Speaker 07

  He brought 85 CDs with him for a family road trip that would last 11 days. He also brought a sketchbook, which started out as an art class project and has since evolved into a kind of diary, I think. He tends to write things down like, "Jesus, I gotta find someone irrational", or, "The [BLEEP] I'm passing off as writing is slowly killing me."

• 54:04Speaker 07

  The first day of our road trip, through North Dakota to south, the music wars started. His 12-year-old sister, Georgia, claimed the very backseat of the minivan and was content to lie there, surrounded by nail polish and beads and thread and Hershey Kisses and Archie comics, and listen to her music on her Discman, mostly R&B stuff, Destiny's Child and the Save the Last Dance soundtrack. My husband Cassidy and I sat in the front, and Owen sat on the seat right behind us so he could listen to his CDs on the stereo. We'd tell him to listen to them on his Discman, which he did sometimes, but then he'd miss out on our sporadic conversations, which he enjoyed either participating in or mocking. Sometimes he'd give us a choice of his CDs to play. "Nirvana," he'd say. "You guys like Nirvana, right?"

• 54:49Speaker 07

  "Yeah, but the unplugged one," we'd say. "Oh, Lord, help me now," he'd say. He'd pop a dozen CDs into the player. "They will know us by The Trail of Dead, Black Rebel Motorcycle Club, At the Drive-In, other stuff." And we'd listen to half a song from each one and go, "Nope, nope, nope."

• 55:07Speaker 07

  I had wanted to learn more about him from his music. I was pretty sure his lyrics would tell me more about him than he would. But the problem was I couldn't understand most of the lyrics, and none of his CDs, which he'd bootlegged, had liner notes. We asked him if he didn't miss having liner notes, and he said, "Man, liner notes. You guys have this unnatural relationship with your liner notes."

• 55:29Speaker 07

  What are some of your favorite lyrics?

• 55:36Speaker 02

  I like some of the lyrics from The Pixies.

• 55:39Speaker 07

  Can you say some of the lyrics from The Pixies?

• 55:45Speaker 02

  "You're so pretty when you're unfaithful to me."

• 55:48Speaker 07

  So, like, what does that mean to you?

• 55:51Speaker 02

  I don't know. I just thought it was funny.

• 55:56Speaker 07

  When Owen was little, I discovered I could get him to do anything by timing him. "Go get your jacket," I'd say, or, "Clean up your toys, quick. I'll time you." He loved competing with himself and beating his old records, even if I just made up times. And it evolved into a huge, competitive, sports-loving thing that I still don't really understand or enjoy. That timing thing didn't work at all with Georgia. She'd just look up at me and say, "What do you mean, time me? What for?"

• 56:30Speaker 07

  The difference between him and Georgia in the talking department is huge. Georgia will come home from school and literally reenact her entire day so that she's telling me about it almost in real time, hour after hour. Owen, on the other hand, might tell me that his day was good, even if it was bad. But usually, he just shrugs and makes an "I don't know" kind of sound. And then he'll head down to the basement and play his guitar. So, like, do some of your friends have girlfriends? And do you ever think that you'd like to have a girlfriend?

• 57:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:02Speaker 07

  What do you think they think? Like, how would they describe you to their friends, do you think?

• 57:11Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 57:15Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 57:18Speaker 07

  Do you think you do know about it and you just don't really want to talk about it with me?

• 57:21Speaker 02

  I think that, yeah, I think so.

• 57:24Speaker 07

  I can dig it.

• 57:33Speaker 07

  I've learned over time not to worry too much about his silence, although it used to drive me crazy. I wondered if maybe he'd turn out to be a psychopath, although I'm not sure why I associate evil with silence. Anyway, I'm getting better with it. Cassidy often reassures me by saying stuff like, "It's a guy thing," or, "He's a 15-year-old boy. What do you expect?" He told me that when he was Owen's age, he sat in his bedroom by himself for hours on end, typing page after page of angry vitriol against the world on an old manual typewriter until his fingers bled. And he seems really happy now. I realize my kids sound like boy and girl stereotypes. Owen is taciturn and into sports, and Georgia is chatty and prone to the occasional crying jag. But it really just is that way.

• 58:17Speaker 07

  I don't know why. It's not like we planned it. I don't want to think it's because he's a boy and she's a girl. But if it is, who cares? When Georgia was upset about something at school the other day and faced down on the couch, he sat on the floor beside her and said, "It's hard being a girl, isn't it?" I'm not sure that it's any easier being a boy. And I don't know what he does exactly when he's sad other than listening to music. Except for once, it's been years since I've seen him cry. I'd kill to read his notebook. Is there anything about girls that you envy?

• 58:50Speaker 02

  Hmm. No. Nothing. Nothing.

• 58:55Speaker 07

  Well, what about their seams, their ability to kind of talk about how they feel about things? Easier?

• 59:04Speaker 02

  Sure, yeah.

• 59:06Speaker 07

  You envy that?

• 59:08Speaker 02

  I definitely envy that.

• 59:15Speaker 07

  We were all pretty quiet as we drove up to Colorado Springs on our way to Denver. The sun was shining, but it was raining a bit, and we saw not one, not two, but three dead cows in fields, stiff with their legs in the air. And it bothered us. After the third dead cow, I played my favorite song of the summer, Gillian Welch's Elvis Presley Blues. It's a wistful song about the king as a 15-year-old boy just starting out with a big rock and roll dream in a shirt his mother made. And it was kind of miraculous, because Owen actually liked it, too. For me, it was a song about a boy becoming a man and leaving home, and it made me a little sad. I think Owen was probably hearing it as a song about a cool 15-year-old who was about to conquer the world. But really, I haven't got a clue

• 59:59Speaker 07

  how he heard the song or how it made him feel. All he said was that it had a decent pop sensibility. And then he was quiet.

• 1:00:12Speaker 07

  These days, the more I press him for information, the faster he shuts right down. The other day, I tried a new approach. His. I was annoyed by a bunch of things, and rather than broadcast it all over the house, I sat on the couch and glared at the TV and sighed periodically. And strangely, Owen responded.

• 1:00:32Speaker 07

  He observed my weirdness for a while and then left. Then he came back and looked at me again and said one word: "Mom." But in such a nice way that I smiled and said, "Owen." And that was it. And then we sat there for a while silently. I was surprised by how completely comfortable it felt. And then, finally, wordlessly, he got up and took his laundry upstairs.

• 1:01:04Ira Glass?

  Miriam Taves, she's a writer in Toronto. Her so-called is now a grown man, and Miriam tells us it's long past his taciturn days. Her latest book is called A Truce That Is Not Peace.

• 1:01:16Speaker 05

  You know, I'm almost grown. Yeah, and I'm doing all right in school.

• 1:01:23Speaker 05

  They ain't said I broke no rules.

• 1:01:26Speaker 05

  I ain't never been in Dutch.

• 1:01:29Speaker 05

  I don't browse around too much.

• 1:01:32Speaker 05

  Don't bother me, leave me alone.

• 1:01:35Speaker 05

  Anyway, I'm almost grown.

• 1:01:38Ira Glass?

  Well, our program was produced today by Alex Blumberg and me, with Wendy Dorr, Jonathan Goldstein, and Starlee Kine. Julie Snyder was our senior producer for this episode. Help on today's rerun from Molly Marcello, Stowe Nelson, Ruby Schwartz, and Matt Tierney. Also, thanks to Dr. Martin Minor. This is our last week with Molly Marcello, who is our production fellow here at the show. She has been wonderful to work with. We all wish her the best. Special thanks today to El Jefe, to Buzzzy Goldstein, to Robert Powell, to Jim Nelson at GQ, Daniel Foster and Sarah Vowell, Alex Blumberg, who produced this week's show and did two of the stories in it. These days, he is out of the radio game. He's running a building electrification and decarbonization platform called Daisy Chain Energy. If you reach out to him through his website, he'll tell you all about it. Thanks also today to This American Life Partners,

• 1:02:24Ira Glass?

  Michael Seton, Cynthia Hill, and Connie St. Clair. If you are somebody who enjoys our show, and here you are, listening all the way through the credits, so maybe that does describe you, I invite you to please consider subscribing as a life partner. It helps us keep the show going. And as thanks, we've made dozens of bonus episodes. I've just been trying out doing a weekly newsletter. Where basically I just talk about movies and books that I'm liking and recommend them to you. To join, go to thisamericanlife.org/lifepartners. That link is also in the show notes. This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange. Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia, who owns a very, very, very big radio. This is what he says about it.

• 1:03:08Speaker 06

  This big, shuddering, warm, inanimate object would just drive me crazy. It was very, very erotic to me.

• 1:03:17Ira Glass?

  I'm Ira Glass. Back next week with more stories of This American Life.

• 1:03:42Ira Glass?

  Next week on the podcast of This American Life, 29 days after a local hospital closed its birthing unit, Katie went to labor. So that's not great, right? And then, something else happened. I said, "Sasha, then get a chainsaw and cut the wall down." Because I didn't want the baby to die. One doctor, doing incredible things, so many of them, things she has never done before. That's next week on the podcast on your local public radio station.

• 1:04:21Speaker 05

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