900: Talk Me Into It

It’s the midterms! This week’s show is about people changing their minds and not changing their minds — and the people trying to do the persuading. Start a Life Partners free trial https://thisamericanlife.supercast.com/?coupon=VIDEO?utm_id=lifepartners&utm_source=rss&utm_medium=shownotes to watch our new video, A Night of Stories and Improv. (00:00:00) Prologue: In Detroit, Rose Johnson tries to convince other Black voters to vote for Abdul El-Sayed. Her friend isn’t having it. (7 minutes) (00:07:30) Act One: In Montana's Senate race this year, Democrats have been caught up in a messy cloak-and-dagger fight, with longtime big-name Democrats not endorsing their own nominee. So many people have been trying to persuade one candidate, Alani Bankhead, to do something that she’s refused to do. Heather Tal Murphy reports. (27 minutes) (00:36:34) Act Two: While working as a car salesman, longtime All Things Considered host Noah Adams learned about a technique to supposedly close a deal. Ira remembers hearing the story decades ago and was thinking about it after Noah’s recent death. (9 minutes) (00:44:24) Act Three: Sam Negron has been working for years to bring Hispanic voters into the Republican Party. He was a part of the push two years ago that helped Trump win more of the Hispanic vote than any Republican. This year, every national poll predicts Republicans losing ground with those voters. But Sam says he is still seeing the exact opposite when he talks to people. He invited producer Ike Sriskandarajah to come to Allentown to see the red wave he is predicting. (11 minutes) Transcripts are available at thisamericanlife.org https://www.thisamericanlife.org/900/transcript / This American Life privacy policy https://www.thisamericanlife.org/page/privacy-policy. / Learn more about sponsor message choices https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This message comes from the Southern Environmental Law Center. No one voted for dirty air and water. That's why S E L C is fighting back to defend the healthy environment everyone depends on. Because it's not political, it's fundamental. Learn more at S E L C dot org.

• 0:18Speaker 01

  A quick warning, there are curse words that are unbeeped in today's episode of the show. If you prefer a beeped version, you can find that at our website, thisamericanlife.org.

• 0:29Ira Glass?

  For sure. Over $11 billion is being spent on advertising for the election next week. But of course, in addition to the ads, there are still human beings out there in this election, trying to persuade the old fashioned way, person to person, in one-on-one conversations. Which is where you really see what people are made of and how they're deciding who they're going to vote for. People really say some stuff. One of our producers, Ike Trias, Kandarajam, met this woman, Rose Johnson, in Detroit. The Senate race there is too close to call. And one problem that Democrat Abdul El Sayed's been having is getting black voters. Rose has been out trying to convince those voters. And Ike, who is she?

• 1:08Speaker 03

  Okay, so Rose is a retired police dispatcher. She's a great grandmother. And she's only been doing this about a year, but she's already worked on seven campaigns. She kind of got obsessed.

• 1:21Ira Glass?

  And you met at a community center?

• 1:23Speaker 03

  Yeah. At the front of the room, her reverend was hosting this live radio show. And there's about 50 people who showed up to hear it. They're all black. And the show spent about half an hour telling people to get out and vote for Abdul El Sayed. But Rose didn't need the nuts, she was already on board.

• 1:42Speaker 04

  He comes here all the time, so we see him all the time.

• 1:45Speaker 03

  She's in so many events that he's been at, that now he actually knows her.

• 1:50Speaker 04

  I stand behind him 1,000% because I feel comfortable with him. He's very, very approachable. He reaches out to you. And when you see him and you meet him, he knows you. So if he sees you in a crowd, he gonna wave at you, he gonna hug you if he can. Because he knows you, he don't act funny. He's, he's the guy.

• 2:08Speaker 03

  She's knocked on doors for him, she's done phone banking. But she knows lots of people don't agree with her, even people who usually vote for Democrats. If he's showing up, like you're saying, why don't people like him?

• 2:23Speaker 04

  It's just the religion. They want to say, oh, the Arab, I don't see that.

• 2:27Speaker 03

  People told that to you?

• 2:28Speaker 04

  Yes. I have a friend of mine, and she talks crazy anyway. And she said, well, I have to be honest with you. I can't vote for him because he's an Arab. And I said, well, that's dumb, because they said the same thing about Kamala Harris. They said Kamala Harris, they want to vote for her because she's a black woman. So I get so upset when people say that. And if she wants to be my friend, she's going to do the right thing and vote for Abdul. Otherwise, I just can't mess with her. I don't want to hear her complaining about, oh, oh, oh. I don't want to hear it.

• 3:01Speaker 03

  And the things she's saying came up with basically every black supporter of El Sayed I talked to while I was in Detroit. They'll describe this decades-long tension between Arabs who own stores and the black patrons who shop there. Detroit has seen decades of violence and distrust and racism between these two groups. And Rose has seen this attitude towards Arabs and other newcomers, too.

• 3:25Speaker 04

  They get businesses, they get stores, they get loans, they get a lot of things that we didn't get coming into this country as African Americans, you know? And they just feel that they're entitled. Just don't come here and act like you're better than us, you're privileged. We get that enough from white people. So we don't need that from others. We need a ban against white people, you know? My opinion. Because it's us against them. That's my opinion.

• 3:52Speaker 03

  I mean, she says that with people she knows, she's been able to talk them out of their prejudice and into a vote for El Sayed. But there's this one person in her life, you heard her talking about her earlier, one of her oldest friends, and she's been making the case to her for weeks. And I asked if I could listen in and record their conversation.

• 4:14Speaker 04

  I can call her now.

• 4:18Speaker 04

  I'm gonna put you on speaker.

• 4:21Speaker 04

  So tell me your opinion of Abdul and why you, are you going to vote for him?

• 4:26Speaker 05

  No.

• 4:27Speaker 04

  Why?

• 4:30Speaker 05

  I don't want to.

• 4:31Speaker 04

  I mean, can you elaborate?

• 4:34Speaker 05

  I really can't say why I want to vote for Abdul because, to be honest with you, I don't trust him. That's why I want to vote for him.

• 4:43Speaker 04

  What is it about him you don't trust?

• 4:47Speaker 05

  His nationality.

• 4:48Speaker 04

  What does that have to do with anything?

• 4:50Speaker 05

  A lot. What I'm saying is, I want to vote for an American.

• 4:56Speaker 04

  He is an American.

• 4:57Speaker 05

  I want to vote for an American.

• 4:58Speaker 04

  He's Arabic-American.

• 5:01Speaker 05

  No, I'm not, no, I'm not an American.

• 5:04Speaker 04

  We're African-American.

• 5:06Speaker 05

  That's different. I'll vote for them.

• 5:09Speaker 04

  For us.

• 5:10Speaker 05

  I'm not gonna vote for him. I'm just being honest with you.

• 5:15Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 5:17Speaker 03

  Could I ask, is there anything he could change, like a policy? Or is there anything he could say? By the way, this is, my name's Ike, I'm a reporter talking to your friend Rose about El Sayed. And I was wondering, is there an argument or something that you could hear that would change your mind?

• 5:38Speaker 05

  It probably is. But it just, I don't, I don't trust him. I'm not clear on none of his point of view. I haven't listened to none of his speeches.

• 5:51Speaker 04

  So would you like to meet him in person, have a conversation with him? Because I can arrange that.

• 5:56Speaker 03

  This is one of Rose's, like, special moves. It's kind of a flex. This is exactly how she got her sister to vote for Detroit's current mayor. She just put them on the phone together.

• 6:06Ira Glass?

  Oh, wow.

• 6:07Speaker 03

  But when Rose offered the same thing, like, do you want to meet El Sayed in person? She said, no. She just can't right now. She said she's got too much going on. Her brother just passed away, and she's heading down to his funeral.

• 6:22Ira Glass?

  So did Rose give up?

• 6:23Speaker 03

  No. I mean, Rose is just as stubborn as her friend. And she said, I am going to take her to the polls. I'm going to hold her hand right up until the booth. And when she goes into the booth, the place that I can't go, I'm going to be whispering outside the booth. Abdul, Abdul, Abdul.

• 6:49Ira Glass?

  Well, ladies and gentlemen, for all the talk the last few weeks about how so many people have changed their minds about President Trump and the Republicans, and all the talk about how tables are about to turn in these midterm elections, let us remember, please, how hard it is to change anybody's mind. Today on our program, we have stories about people who are not changing their minds so easily, and some unusual and extraordinary things being done to try to get them to change, including a tale of millions and millions of dollars being spent, all in the hope that just one person, one person, will change your mind. That's our first act today. From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life. I'm Araglas. Stay with us.

• 7:45Speaker 00

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• 7:49Speaker 06

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• 8:14Speaker 00

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• 8:40Ira Glass?

  This American Life, Act One, Where's the Party? In the Senate race in Montana this year, there's been this messy cloak-and-dagger fight among Democrats, where longtime big-name Democrats are not endorsing their own nominee. And so many people have been trying to persuade one of the candidates, Ilani Bankhead, to do something that she has refused to do. People are scratching their heads, why not? To untangle all this for us and tell the story, it's reporter Heather Tom Murphy, who lives in Montana. And somehow seems to be able to get anybody in the state on the phone.

• 9:12Speaker 07

  Lots of things about Ilani Bankhead's biography are perfect for someone running for Senate. She's former Air Force, 44 years old, counterterrorism specialist, intelligence analyst. Then she became a child sex crimes investigator. She's been part of dozens of convictions. She thought the Republican incumbent was doing a terrible job. He didn't show up for important votes. He didn't seem in touch with voters around the state. She was really bothered by that. And so she decided to run. She drafted up an announcement and posted it to social media, to LinkedIn. Why LinkedIn?

• 9:49Speaker 00

  I love LinkedIn. Yeah, LinkedIn is my jam.

• 9:52Speaker 07

  It's unconventional for a political announcement.

• 9:55Speaker 00

  Oh. Well, I'm not a, I'm not a politician. I'm a public servant. I like to see myself that way, anyway.

• 10:04Speaker 07

  She knew she was a long shot to win the race. In the Democratic primary, she was running against four other people, too far more established. She'd never, ever run for anything before, never been to a city council meeting or a protest. And she was still pretty new to Montana, moved here just a few years ago from Hawaii. She had few connections, no family ranch. Montana has also never sent a woman or a person of color to the Senate. Ilani is both. She's Puerto Rican. It went about how you'd imagine. A few months after announcing, Ilani found her campaign floundering. She'd raised less than $15,000, a tiny amount for a Senate campaign.

• 10:45Speaker 07

  All of her media was homemade, and her positions were boilerplate Democratic stuff. Affordability, end the war in Iran, stop dark money in politics. She was getting very little attention. And then, one day in May, everything changed. I was in the car with my campaign manager, I don't remember where exactly, I think we were driving somewhere, and her stepped

• 11:08Speaker 05

  Dad had texted her and he was like, I love the ad on TV. And we're like, what ad?

• 11:12Speaker 00

  Democrat Ilani Bankhead, US Air Force veteran, running for Senate to fight for our public lands, for affordable healthcare and to stand up to MAGA Republicans who think they're above the law. Ilani Bankhead, the fighter we need in the US Senate.

• 11:28Speaker 07

  The ad was good. Slow motion, gauzy shots of Ilani, an old photo from her Air Force days looking veteran-y. And there were more ads. Ilani walking with her police dog.

• 11:40Speaker 05

  Ilani Bankhead is stepping up to defend our public lands from the Trump agenda. Ilani Bankhead, the proven fighter we need.

• 11:48Speaker 07

  And at that point, did you know who was creating them?

• 11:51Speaker 05

  No, had no idea. I remember running on the treadmill at the gym and seeing myself twice in a 20-minute run. And I was like, I need to get the hell out of here.

• 12:03Speaker 07

  On one hand, this was a huge gift falling out of the sky. But it was also confusing. Who was doing it?

• 12:11Speaker 05

  It felt really weird because I was skeptical. Like, I'm like, why are these people putting these ads on? What do they want? Nobody had approached us. There'd been zero conversations. We hadn't gotten a whiff of anything. So, you know, we didn't know what was happening.

• 12:25Speaker 07

  What were all the things that went through as possibilities for you?

• 12:28Speaker 05

  So it was either amazing angel investor or some nefarious plot. You know, like, I was like, someone trying to influence me later on in the election or some very, like a Mackenzie Bezos, like really generous person who was like, I see her and her background and we need to help her.

• 12:49Speaker 07

  The TV adlets was accompanied by glossy mailers, social media ads, text messages and phone calls. This kind of thing happens. Super PACs show up and pay for ads for candidates who have no idea who they are. But this was an extreme version of it. Suddenly, this totally unknown novice's campaign had way more money pouring in on its behalf than anyone else in her race. 10 times more money than the obvious frontrunner, a former state lawmaker who'd been campaigning for two years. There was a name on these commercials, a super PAC called Progressive Vet PAC. Ilani never heard of it, but the name made sense. She's a veteran. FEC filings showed that the super PAC had raised 2.8 million.

• 13:33Speaker 07

  And it seemed to have been created specifically to support her. This kind of super PAC money is something Ilani actively campaigns against. So she put out statements on social media saying, these are not our ads. Because this was a super PAC and it's illegal for super PACs to coordinate with political candidates, Ilani and her campaign didn't believe they could call them up and ask a lot of questions. On the PAC's financial documents, there were only two names. Someone who's listed as treasurer and a compliance guy. It's impossible to see who donated most of the money, but a few hundred thousand were connected to a billionaire finance guy named Jason Carroll. Carroll co-founded a company that's involved in 10% of all the trades in the US stock market.

• 14:17Speaker 07

  The ads kept pouring in.

• 14:23Speaker 07

  On primary night in June, Ilani and her husband held a watch party at a divey bar in the state Capitol, one where lobbyists and lawmakers often hang out. There were little American flags dangling from the ceiling. The huge influx of ads had taken Ilani from an unknown to getting stopped by strangers at the grocery store and at the gas station. The adlets had been so sudden, there were no fresh polls to predict how the vote would shake out. Ilani watched as the first results were tallied.

• 14:53Speaker 05

  As soon as that first chart hit the screen, I was at the top and it didn't stop. So, and we won by double digits. So, pretty decisive win. It was crazy. It was just, I mean, you're just in shock, right? Because in January, everybody was like, who the hell's this girl? She's never going to win.

• 15:14Speaker 07

  Ilani Bankhead had essentially gone from political nobody to runaway US Senate nominee in just three weeks' time.

• 15:21Speaker 05

  And if tonight proves anything, it's this. Never underestimate what one person can do. The future of this country will not be decided by the loudest people online or the richest people in Washington. It'll be decided by individuals.

• 15:34Speaker 07

  This, of course, is not what happened. It was the opposite. The loudest, richest people had completely turned this race upside down and propelled a totally unlikely candidate to a double-digit victory.

• 15:50Speaker 07

  After the primary, rumors start flying about who had just elevated Ilani Bankhead from long shot unknown to the Democratic nominee for Senate in just weeks. Who was behind this giant infusion of super PAC money? And I'll get to that mystery in a minute. But for any of this to make any sense to you, I need to explain how the race laid out at this point. Ilani was now set up to face a Republican, former US attorney named Kurt Almy, a Trump loyalist who'd been lined up by the outgoing Republican senator. She was also, and this is important, facing a second candidate, an independent named Seth Bodnar. His ads were running everywhere. In Washington, they force you into a box.

• 16:35Speaker 07

  Democrat or Republican. And you vote how you're told to, even if it hurts your state. And I reject that. Bodnar, like Ilani, is former military, served in Iraq, a Green Beret. I'm not a politician. I'm a soldier, a businessman, a husband, a father. Bodnar's resume is full of impressive credentials. First in his class at West Point, two master's degrees from Oxford, Rhodes Scholar, a Bronze Star. And unlike Ilani Bankhead, Bodnar has deeper ties and way more political connections in Montana. His wife's a fifth-generation Montanan. His most recent job, president of the University of Montana, which of course brings all kinds of personal

• 17:19Speaker 07

  and political connections across the state. A perfect centrist candidate for this political moment. So that's what Ilani was up against. But she looked at this formidable opponent and thought, well, okay, this is the part where our Montana Democrats will unite behind their nominee.

• 17:36Speaker 07

  Instead, something strange happened. Those millions of dollars of mysterious ads supporting her stopped running. Ilani started getting calls from reporters about the Progressive Vet PAC that had funded those ads.

• 17:50Speaker 05

  They're like, Progressive Vet PAC is saying your, your race is unviable or something about like, you can't win. So we're taking our money elsewhere. And I was like, bye. You know, I mean, we didn't ask for that money anyway. And that's what we told all the reporters, right? We're like, we didn't ask for this money. We don't want dark money. We're opposed to dark money.

• 18:08Speaker 07

  In other words, the group that put her on the map was abandoning her. So what was going on here? Well, Montana is one of five red states where Democrats are so unpopular, the brand is so toxic, that lots of Democrats have concluded that in certain races, that no Democrat can win. So the best path to victory is to back an independent. And in four of those states, Idaho, Nebraska, South Dakota and Alaska, they did it. The Democratic nominee bowed out over the summer, leaving the field open for independent candidates in those states to sweep up all the voters who are unhappy with Trump and the Republicans. This is what so many of us in Montana thought was happening here. The rumor was Democratic strategists threw themselves behind the independent Seth Bodnar,

• 18:52Speaker 07

  hoping they could get the Democratic nominee to drop out. And to ensure that it happened, they took an extra step during the primary. They urged the rich donors to send money to the newcomer, Ilani Bankhead. Figuring as a newbie, she'd be the most likely to drop out. Anyway, that was the rumor. And that was what Ilani suspected. Something that looked fishy to Ilani was that the billionaire connected to the super PAC, Jason Carroll, had also given money to Bodnar.

• 19:26Speaker 05

  So to me, that's as much of a smoking gun as you're going to get to show that Progressive Vet PAC was pro-Bodnar. I think with the intent of get Ilani elected and get Ilani pushed out of the election.

• 19:39Speaker 07

  So it reaffirmed that it was nefarious plot?

• 19:42Speaker 05

  Yes, it did.

• 19:44Speaker 07

  Why do you think you were misread as someone who was more likely to drop out or the most likely to drop out?

• 19:50Speaker 05

  I think because I'm female and I look really young and I'm brown and I'm petite and I'm kind. And I've, you know, people have mistook in that for weakness my entire career. She's cute and adorable. Like you could, she's a pushover. Like she won't

• 20:05Speaker 06

  Be that hard, which I think is really hilarious because jokes on them. Eat shit, you know, get some better consultants.

• 20:13Speaker 07

  I reached out to Carol, the billionaire, but he didn't respond. I also tried to get the Super PAC's treasurer. When I asked Seth Bodnar about what happened in the Democratic primary, he said flat out, he was not part of any plan to force out any Democratic nominee. He wasn't involved, doesn't know where the money came from that poured into Alani's campaign. So where did the money come from? Who was behind it? Who had just elevated Alani Bankhead from long shot unknown to the Democratic nominee? And then hung her out to dry? I called all kinds of people about this, Democratic insiders and operatives. No one was exactly sure what had happened or if the rumors were true. Until I got to Max Bockus.

• 20:57Speaker 07

  Bockus is a huge deal for Montana Democrats. He was a Democratic Senator here for more than three decades. He knows everyone.

• 21:05Speaker 05

  No, I was not, but I do know of some people who were involved.

• 21:09Speaker 07

  Who was involved?

• 21:13Speaker 05

  Some people I know have been involved in Montana campaigns. Really wonderful people.

• 21:21Speaker 05

  They were part of some organizations that directed the money.

• 21:24Speaker 07

  But they told you that they were going to pick somebody who would be more likely to withdraw? Somebody told you that?

• 21:30Speaker 05

  Yes, that's correct.

• 21:32Speaker 07

  Okay. Bockus wouldn't name names, but he's one of many big name Democrats in Montana who've thrown all their support behind Bodnar, the independent candidate, saying he's their best shot at beating the Republican and going on at length about what an amazing, impressive person Bodnar is. Since that conversation, I've spoken with politicians and political insiders. And as best as I can reconstruct, here's what happened. It all began with a meeting in August 2025 in Anaconda with Democratic politicians and strategists from Montana and beyond. They talked about how only an independent could win certain races in the state, and their win would require getting the Democrat to withdraw.

• 22:14Speaker 07

  Meanwhile, Bodnar, this promising former Green Beret, who some Democrats had been eyeing for years, decided he was ready to take the plunge as an independent. One Democratic insider told me about later conversations where strategists discussed which Democratic candidate would be the best to push out after the primary. There was the Native American man. They decided it would look bad to push him out. And they knew the frontrunner, the former state lawmaker, would never drop out. She'd said so many times. So they settled on Alani Bankhead, though no one spoke to her about this. In Nebraska, where Democrats were also running this strategy, they did get a commitment from the Democratic nominee to drop out in advance.

• 22:57Speaker 07

  Democrats didn't make an agreement like that with Alani, but they funded her during the primary because they needed someone to knock the frontrunner out of the race. And if you talk to the frontrunner about what happened, that is definitely how she sees it. Her name is Riley Neal.

• 23:12Speaker 05

  It was a purposeful effort to repress my race. And I can't say that after this experience, I feel like much of a Democrat.

• 23:25Speaker 07

  She told me about this one very unsettling phone call she says she got right before Bodnar entered the race from a well-known Democrat in the state.

• 23:32Speaker 05

  And he said, so how much would it take you to drop out of the race? $500,000? And I said, no, hell no. I don't need that guy to money. You know, I have plenty of money. And he's like, how about 15 million?

• 23:52Speaker 07

  No, he didn't.

• 23:52Speaker 05

  And I said, yes, he did.

• 23:54Speaker 07

  Why would he even get 15 million?

• 23:57Speaker 05

  I laughed to make it less serious and said, how about 50 million? And I'm not dropping out.

• 24:07Speaker 05

  And then he laughed and we ended the conversation.

• 24:10Speaker 07

  Did he say why he would want you to drop out?

• 24:12Speaker 05

  No. I don't know if he was just, it was a trial balloon or if it was sincere. I don't know. He could probably say, I was just messing around, but you can ask my husband because I thought he was dead serious.

• 24:29Speaker 05

  Oh, that's completely false.

• 24:31Speaker 07

  The person who she said made this offer to her? Former Montana Governor Brian Schweitzer, a Democrat. If the offer were sincere, this would break state law. I called up Schweitzer and told him what Riley Neal said.

• 24:45Speaker 05

  I have absolutely no idea about that.

• 24:51Speaker 05

  She, by the way, not only no idea, this is outrageous for her to have said that.

• 24:59Speaker 07

  Okay. So she said that then the conversation switched and she was quite surprised. And then you both laughed and then you hung up and then you didn't talk to her again for what?

• 25:08Speaker 05

  I may well have done that because the rumors were out there that, that people were getting offered to get out of the race.

• 25:16Speaker 07

  Wait, so what do you mean you may well have done that?

• 25:19Speaker 05

  The rumors were all over the place that people were, that whoever won this race might be getting out of the race.

• 25:26Speaker 07

  I see.

• 25:27Speaker 05

  But I was not proposing anything to anybody. I was saying how ridiculous it would be.

• 25:36Speaker 05

  If somebody would propose to pay money to get out of the race. I may have been making a point that you can't be bought. Maybe somebody else in this race can be bought, but I knew she couldn't be.

• 25:51Speaker 07

  He told me this whole story makes no sense. He endorsed Riley Neal through the primary, then endorsed Alani after she won. He believes it's important for the party to stand behind their Democratic nominee. So after speaking with several people who've worked for Schweitzer, I don't think he was offering her a bribe. I think what might have been happening here is that he might have been trying to figure out if anyone could get Neal to drop out. So he threw these numbers at her. Or he might have been making a joke. Who knows? Everyone's so paranoid at this point in Montana politics. Anyway, back to Alani. After the primary, this intense pressure campaign started to get her to drop out. Lawn signs started appearing all over the capital city of Helena.

• 26:34Speaker 06

  They papered Helena and my neighborhood with yard signs that said, Alani, drop out.

• 26:41Speaker 06

  We heard about that because one of our neighbors, he travels a lot for business. And as he was leaving at like 4:00 AM, he called my husband and was like, hey, like there were these signs around the neighborhood. We, we might have one. Do you want me to go get it?

• 26:56Speaker 07

  A yard sign?

• 26:56Speaker 06

  I think, I think we might.

• 26:59Speaker 07

  She carried this big blue sign into her living room.

• 27:02Speaker 06

  So it says, bow out, Bankhead. Thank you, Alani. Please bow out. Paid for by Montana Freedom PAC, mtfreedompac.org. Not authorized by any candidate. The other side says, bow out, Bankhead. Step back so Montana can step forward. Paid for by Montana Freedom PAC.

• 27:19Speaker 07

  The Montana Freedom PAC supports Bodnar. At this point, I have to pause and say, whoever was in on the plans to boost Alani Bankhead with the idea that she'd be a pushover, that she would wither and quit, their scheming could have benefited from some more basic research about who she is. There's the frequently cited stuff, like working as a senior bodyguard for a secretary in the Air Force. But she's also a life coach and podcaster. People often point to her self-help podcasts and sort of make fun of it for its live, laugh, love vibes. It's called Humble Warrior.

• 27:52Speaker 06

  Journey beyond imposter syndrome. This is where I invite you into a space where high achievers and spiritual leaders converge to redefine success and self-worth.

• 28:04Speaker 07

  But if you listen to what she's actually saying on it, her thing is, here's how to get past these moments when you feel like you're not qualified. Her whole focus is on telling people not to give up. She's written a book on it, runs trainings on this kind of thing for law enforcement. Still, the pressure on Alani has only increased and it's easy to see why. If the polls are right and nothing changes, the Republicans will easily hold on to Montana's Senate seat. The Republican is polling over 40. Bodnar's numbers are in the high 20s or low 30s. And Alani is trailing behind them both in the teens. If she quit the race and Bodnar somehow picked up all her votes, he might win.

• 28:47Speaker 07

  She hasn't raised very much money since the primaries. Well, Bodnar has raised millions. Everyone in politics is seeing this. And Alani started to get calls from Democrats outside the state. They weren't actually telling her to drop out. It was more like, hey, looks like you don't have much of a chance. You have no money. How can you actually compete here? I heard that one of the calls was from one of Alani's political idols, Alyssa Slotkin, a Democratic Senator from Michigan, also with a military background like her. So am I correct that did Alyssa Slotkin call you and ask you to resign?

• 29:27Speaker 06

  I cannot confirm nor deny.

• 29:29Speaker 07

  Why not? Come on.

• 29:30Speaker 06

  Because that's not my style to like name drop in that way. I respect her.

• 29:38Speaker 07

  I reached out to Slotkin and didn't hear back.

• 29:41Speaker 06

  I mean, on the record, I had a US Senator, a sitting governor and a former member of Cabinet call me to try to get me to drop out.

• 29:49Speaker 07

  Did any of them come visit you in person or all phone calls?

• 29:51Speaker 06

  One of them tried to come visit me in person and I told them not to come because I just thought it was weird. And I suspected they were going to try to get me to drop out. And I was like, I don't want you to travel all this way for you to fail at your mission.

• 30:05Speaker 07

  So can I ask you too, when these people called, did anyone ever offer you or hint at anything you would get? Like he would support you in future runs? Or maybe you could have a job or like, we're going to support you? What were kind of things that they tried to offer?

• 30:19Speaker 06

  Oh yeah, there was probing. They're like, what do you want to do next? And I was like, what do you mean? They're like, well, you know, me and my colleagues, like we got into the House and then I got into Senate and others are governors. Like what's the next thing? And I was like, nothing. Like I'm running for Senate and that's it. And they're like, okay. And then they're like, you know, the DNC is standing up this like female veteran like office to support female veterans running as Dems. Like, would you want to run it? And I was like, why would I go work for the same organization that has stabbed me in the back and told me that I'm not supportable? That makes no sense.

• 30:58Speaker 07

  Alani would not tell me who talked to her about this job and said they didn't explicitly ask her to drop out. But the state's Republican Attorney General recently announced he's investigating what happened and whether it broke the law. The DNC says they never offered her a job.

• 31:20Speaker 07

  As Alani heads into the final days of the race, she says she hasn't had a moment of doubt about what she should do. There's no one out there, not on your campaign, who believes that you can win based on the polling numbers. Do you still think you could win?

• 31:35Speaker 06

  If polls mattered, Hillary would have won.

• 31:38Speaker 07

  She says if the Republican wins, she'll feel fine.

• 31:41Speaker 06

  I will be proud to have run the race that we did. And I mean, it will have been the people of Montana that voted that way. It's the people's choice. It's not my choice.

• 31:52Speaker 07

  Her response is always like this. She ran. She won the party's nomination. She didn't break any rules. If someone trying to manipulate the race is disappointed, that is their problem. It's like one part moral high ground, one part middle finger. The deadline for Alani to withdraw, for her name in the Democratic Party to be removed from the ballot, came and went. People are still urging her to suspend her campaign.

• 32:24Speaker 07

  Alani Bankhead's refusal to leave the race fueled a whole second pool of rumors. The rumors are that she's actually a tool of the Republicans, a Republican plant who's trying to split the anti-Trump vote to help the Republican candidate win. What's been left is a mess here for Montana Democrats. The head of the state party just resigned and endorsed Bodnar. The Republican candidate is so confident in his win that he hasn't been coming to debates or even hosting many public events. I went to the godfather of Democratic politics in the state, John Tester, to see what he made of all this. Tester is the last Democrat elected to Senate in Montana, a seat he held for 18 years. He understands well how thin the margins can be in this red state.

• 33:08Speaker 07

  He once won his seat by fewer than 4,000 votes. Tester was one of the first big-name Democrats to support Bodnar. I heard many rumors that he was actually behind the scheme to pump money into the primary for Alani. But he insisted to me that he had nothing to do with it and thought it was, quote, stupid. Still, he's clearly frustrated by Alani's decision to stay in the race.

• 33:31Speaker 05

  I don't know what her motivation is for running.

• 33:35Speaker 05

  But either way, I don't think there's an understanding of the gravity of the situation.

• 33:41Speaker 05

  I don't think there's an understanding of what's at risk here.

• 33:47Speaker 05

  Look, our democracy is hanging on by its fingernails, if that.

• 33:53Speaker 05

  Congress has been AWOL for a year and three quarters. And so is this important?

• 34:01Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, I'm 70 years old. I worked my whole damn life to make sure we have a country that my kids can enjoy and be able to prosper in, my grandkids, too. It may be gone.

• 34:14Speaker 05

  And I've ran four times. And I can tell you when I was behind and I can tell you when I was close to being ahead.

• 34:27Speaker 05

  And there's no way that anybody that knows anything about politics would say, if you're in Alani Bankhead's shoes, that I've got grassroots support and I'm going to win this thing. You're smoking something illegal if that's what you're thinking. Because it ain't there. I don't see it. I have not seen it. There was a homecoming parade at the University of Montana that I was at this weekend. Bodnar had 40 people in his float. I saw one lady carrying an Alani Bankhead sign.

• 34:57Speaker 05

  If that's grassroots support that's going to push you across the finish line, you've got a different view of politics in Montana than I do.

• 35:10Speaker 07

  I wanted to know what Alani made of that in these final days. I called her while she was on her way to a campaign event in Billings and played what Tester said.

• 35:18Speaker 06

  I don't really care. I think John is pitching some kind of hissy fit.

• 35:25Speaker 06

  I put my ring in the hat. I won 48,000 votes. And if they want to support democracy, then they can support the Democratic candidate.

• 35:34Speaker 07

  I think Alani's truly convinced herself that it doesn't matter what the intention of the money was. She won the primary because voters, after learning about her, voted for her. There was this moment when I was watching her campaign at a fall festival in a small town outside of Helena. She made her way through the crowd and person after person stopped her, saying, hey, Alani, you got this, Alani. Nice to see you, Alani. They shake her hand, tap her on the shoulder. She seems to be enjoying herself. In all those other states, the Democratic candidate got out of the way for the independent. The one in South Dakota dropped out after his house caught on fire. Alani is the last one standing.

• 36:29Ira Glass?

  Heather Tom Murphy. Her story was produced by Miki Meek. Coming up, an oracle and a reporter walk into a bar, burst shop. That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.

• 36:43Speaker 00

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• 36:47Speaker 03

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• 37:01Speaker 00

  This episode's sponsor is HubSpot, which offers the following message. What if, instead of updating your CRM, your CRM updated you? No catching up on manual edits, no more guesswork. HubSpot's self-updating CRM keeps your customer context current and helps you understand what to do next. So, marketing builds more demand, sales wins more deals, and customers keep coming back. Learn more at hubspot.com.

• 37:26Speaker 07

  On the next Throughline from NPR, the surprising story behind the discovery of insulin led by a failed Canadian surgeon.

• 37:35Speaker 05

  The best way to describe it would be a reluctant hero.

• 37:39Speaker 07

  It's a story rife with personal grudges and many, many dogs. Listen to NPR's Throughline in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 37:51Ira Glass?

  It's Just American Life. I'm Ira Glass. Today's show, Talk Me Into It. With the midterm elections upon us, we have stories of people convincing other people to change their minds. We have arrived at Act Two of our program. For this act, we're going to leave the world of politics for just a minute and talk about the tactics of persuasion that professional salespeople use to get us to buy a car or a refrigerator or a timeshare or whatever. So this is Act Two, The Ben Franklin Close.

• 38:18Ira Glass?

  Noah Adams died a few weeks ago. And maybe you know who this is. He was one of the longtime hosts of All Things Considered on NPR. Back when I was young, I was his tape cutter for a while. And I have to say, I learned so much about interviewing, listening to how he would structure his interviews and how he would come up with questions that drove in surprising directions. And since he died a couple of weeks ago, I've been thinking about one of the stories that he did that has always stuck with me. And it was this story where he was not the interviewer. He was actually the interviewee in this story. And this was about one of the jobs that he did before he came to NPR. Noah had been a car salesman in Lexington, Kentucky, at a VW dealership.

• 39:01Ira Glass?

  And he was interviewed for this documentary called The Selling Game. And you'll hear, like, he's being interviewed, but mostly just kind of tells this long story without a lot of interruption. And in it, he explains that he used to go to these salesman training seminars where they would teach different moves and sales techniques. And there was one technique that he saw people do and that he heard recordings of that he said was just incredible, but he could never bring himself to do it. He said he would just be too embarrassed. As we'll hear, it requires a lot of shamelessness. The technique was called the Ben Franklin Close. Noah said that you would use this when you got the customer to the point where they had picked out, you know, the car or the insurance policy or whatever it is that you were selling. They had picked out the one they liked, but they just hadn't committed. You know, they were hesitating.

• 39:46Ira Glass?

  And then it's your job as a salesman to get them to buy right now. Like, don't wait. Buy it right now. And they're saying, I don't want to jump into it. I want to think about it. That's when it's time to kick in the Ben Franklin Close. And you say, fine. This is Noah. Let's think about it together. And you absolutely

• 40:05Speaker 05

  We have to say, do you know who Ben Franklin was? You say this to a college professor. I mean, you have to say it. Do you know who Ben Franklin was? The reason you have to do it is because you got them involved and interacting with you. Yeah, yeah, we know who Ben Franklin was. Do you know what old Ben Franklin would do when he found himself in a situation like this? They'd wait, and they'd say, they have to, you know, they'd say, no, what would Ben Franklin do? At this point, you pull out a piece of paper and pencil and ruler. It's a white piece of paper, nothing on it. You say, Ben Franklin, when he found himself in a situation just like this, couldn't decide what to do. But take a piece of paper, and then you take the piece of paper out. And he'd draw a line down the middle. You draw a line.

• 40:49Speaker 05

  And he would then put on one side of that line the reasons why he should do this.

• 40:57Ira Glass?

  And then Noah explains that you, the salesman, then write down on the left side of the paper all the reasons why they should buy today. You know, our old car is on its last legs, and there's a special deal on the financing, like, whatever. Let's say there's a married couple there. You have them name reasons, and you name reasons, and then you write in big block letters. So you have to turn over the page and continue the list all the way down the back.

• 41:20Speaker 05

  Whatever product it is, if the salesman's any good at all, he can come up with about 20 reasons, with the help of the customer, why this should be done today, right now. And then, and this is the fun part of it, well, then what old Ben Franklin would do is take the other side of the page and write down the reasons why he shouldn't do this at this time. And then, the salesman who's helped them, who's written down, in fact, in big block letters the reasons why they should, then takes the piece of paper, very casually, pushes it across the desk, and gives it to them. Gives it to them in the pen and says, OK, very nicely. Now, you folks write down the reasons why you shouldn't.

• 42:05Speaker 05

  And he just leans back, and he's not helping them at this point. And they're lost. They don't know what to do.

• 42:11Ira Glass?

  I'm just going to jump in again. I think this moment is the reason that this stuck with me all these years, is that the wholesale is built around creating this very awkward social experience where you put the customers on the spot, and they find themselves suddenly participating in this ridiculous exercise that you roped them into. And like, in theory, they could stand up and walk out, but doing that would just feel weird or be violating some sort of, like, social rules of sitting there in the room with you. And so these poor customers, they always play along. And they kind of, sort of tentatively, you know, pick up the pen like they've been instructed.

• 42:46Speaker 05

  And they look at each other. Well, let's see. Bob, what should we write? Let's put down this. Shouldn't jump into a decision. Number two, maybe it's too much money. And the salesman's just sitting there, waiting. And they look at him for help, you know, because he helped him with the other one. And he can't think of any reasons why they shouldn't buy it right now. And he just looks at him, and he's sort of tapping his, tapping his finger on the desk, and time's going on, and the clock's ticking. And, and they get to three, maybe, four. I've seen four. And then, then the salesman says, well, is that it? Is that it? Is that all?

• 43:31Speaker 05

  And he says, let's see how many you got. Let's see, there's 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 23 reasons why you should buy it today. And let me see how many you have. Here, it says four. This is what Ben Franklin would do. He would then total up the reasons for and the reasons against. Then you just lay the paper on the table and sit there. And you sit there, and sit there, and sit there, until they say something. And the salesman have a hard time doing this. You have to be quiet, because the next move is theirs. They have to make it, and you should be willing to sit there and wait 30 minutes for them to do it.

• 44:11Ira Glass?

  So you wait, Noah explains. He said that what sometimes happens is that, at this point, the customers will say what's really bothering them, like, why they are not buying right now. But Noah says any specific reason they give, like the payments or whatever, any specific reason, a good salesman has an answer to that specific reason and can kind of solve that problem for them and then close the sale.

• 44:33Speaker 05

  Is it the color? Is it me? Is it my company? Is it the delivery time? Is it the price? Can I give you more money? Can I get you a new one, you know, from the factory? I can get you this and it right now. You know, you've got to get that objection. Turn it around, use it to close.

• 44:47Ira Glass?

  So it's pretty tight. And the interviewer asked Noah, what can the consumer possibly say to get out of this and not buy this item?

• 44:56Speaker 05

  Ah, I've thought of that many times. And when I used to go to these sales training seminars and listen to these people who are really good, I tried to figure out a way that a customer could get out of it. And there is only one way, and I've figured it out, and I've used it a couple of times. And it's hard to do. The only way out is to be willing to step out of the role that you've created for yourself and say, I don't know why. I just don't want it. The salesman's been trained to handle every possible objection that you can come up with. There is not an objection you can come up with.

• 45:37Speaker 05

  The salesman has not been trained to take, turn completely around into a closing device and pin you down to a contract. And if you say, I don't know why, I just don't want it. I don't know why. It'll floor him. He has no response to that.

• 45:57Ira Glass?

  Noah Adams, 1976, on a show called The Selling Game, being interviewed by another old mentor of mine, Keith Talbot, who I am 100% sure is listening. Hello there, Keith. If you know Noah's work at all, you can totally understand why he would never be able to bring himself to do the Ben Franklin close. Noah was like the master of connecting with people, with anybody, and getting them to open up. This kind of manipulation, just not his nature. The Noah's wife, Nina, says that she did see Noah tell salesmen a bunch of times, I don't know why, I just don't want it, and then walk away. She says he got her doing it, too.

• 46:42Ira Glass?

  All right, back to politics. Act Three, Polls Schmoles. We now turn to one last persuader in this program of persuaders. This is a Republican in Pennsylvania. Seems to have a real gift for bringing voters over to his side. He also has some predictions and some thoughts about the polls that he was happy to share with our producer, Ike Strisconderajo.

• 47:02Speaker 03

  Sam Negron is the oracle of Allentown. I first met him two years ago at this weird moment in time. Remember when a comedian at a Trump rally called Puerto Rico an island of garbage? Sam was out here doing damage control with voters.

• 47:18Speaker 05

  There's 29 dump sites.

• 47:21Speaker 03

  He said it wasn't going to be a problem for Trump, and he was right. Trump did better with Hispanic voters than any Republican ever, and picked up lots right here in Allentown. That's the oracle. This time around, every poll is saying Hispanic support of Trump is down. But Sam's been knocking on thousands of doors for a pack called Pennsylvania Republicanos. And again, he's saying, it's not going to be a problem.

• 47:49Speaker 05

  And I don't know where they're getting those numbers, because it's not what I see. It's not what I find. And when I talk to people, what I find is that they're still on board, that they're still voting Republican, that they see the Democratic Party have been taken over by socialists. I've even been able to help a few switch parties through our slate cards.

• 48:14Speaker 03

  From Democrat to Republican, registered Republican in the last year?

• 48:18Speaker 05

  Yeah, in the last two months, I've flipped a couple of people. They were frustrated with the Democrats, and I'm like, well, come here, I got you.

• 48:27Speaker 03

  What's going on?

• 48:29Speaker 05

  I'm telling you, Ike.

• 48:31Speaker 03

  So that's the mission. Is Sam right? We head out onto the streets of this majority Hispanic town to find out if Trump voters really are sticking with Republicans. It's slow-going at first, finding voters, until we stop by a barber shop.

• 48:48Speaker 05

  This is my favorite part of town, because it's still affordable, and it's not so much drama.

• 48:56Speaker 03

  There's a reason why barber shops are a cliche of election coverage. It's a room designed for long conversations. And Sam happens to know the barber here from way back. Actually, wanted his sister to date him, but she thought he was too nice. Sam hasn't seen him in more than a decade.

• 49:14Speaker 05

  We'll see if Willie's here. See, I won't even know if I'll recognize him. He was a pretty kid.

• 49:23Speaker 03

  Willie Castillo is happy to see Sam. Tells him he's got six kids now. Sam says, I've got five, raised five more. Willie's like, hey, do you remember my brother? He's cutting hair, just over there. Sam's like, remember my sister? She's still crazy.

• 49:41Speaker 05

  I used to be on her, but like, yo, but Willie's a good kid. He's too nice.

• 49:45Speaker 03

  Then Sam tells him why he's here.

• 49:47Speaker 05

  2019, I switched parties to Republican, right? And I've been somebody that's, some people see me as influential in helping other Hispanics, what I consider, see the light, right? And-- I am a Republican, brother, so you know. OK, OK, and that was the main question. There's news reports all over the place saying that a lot of Hispanics that swung towards the Republican Party and voted for Trump are, two years later, regretting doing that vote. And that's the question, right? In the past two years, I haven't, I haven't regretted that I supported him.

• 50:27Speaker 03

  Sam is looking at me, smiling, with his arms open, like, see? Willie is even on board with how Trump is removing immigrants.

• 50:36Speaker 05

  I actually got, no lie, friends that I found out that they were illegal after they got arrested by ICE.

• 50:47Speaker 03

  In the last two years?

• 50:48Speaker 05

  Yeah. Those people, they got taken by ICE, and they got deported.

• 50:53Speaker 03

  So good friends here is-- even though your own friends have been removed from this country by the Trump administration, you still support the Republican Party?

• 51:06Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 51:07Speaker 03

  You explain that, because I think that might be a hard thing for people to understand.

• 51:12Speaker 05

  I'll be honest with you. I know a lot of immigrants that came into this country personally that don't belong here, not because they're immigrants, because they're criminals.

• 51:26Speaker 05

  They're criminals.

• 51:27Speaker 03

  Just for the record, the vast majority of immigrants detained and deported by the Trump administration have no criminal record. How about your friends? Have they been?

• 51:37Speaker 05

  My friends are not criminals. The people I know, they're not criminals. They're good people. They wanted to come here and work. But, no. You came in in a certain way, now you gotta go back.

• 51:46Speaker 03

  So, Willie's still backing the president and his party. That's one point for Sam. Willie's 21-year-old son is quietly listening. He's cutting hair, too. I ask him where he's at, but he's like, nah, I didn't vote. And is certain he will not be voting anytime soon. He sends me to AJ, another younger guy who's been listening nearby.

• 52:09Speaker 05

  I voted Trump. Trump, yeah. How do you feel now? Yeah, I'm not really into all of them, or everything he got going on. I just know a little bit here and there. So you regret voting for him?

• 52:23Speaker 03

  Sam jumps in.

• 52:24Speaker 05

  Do you feel like it might have been a mistake voting for him? The regret is probably from the racistness, like, people will be saying he's racist, all of that. But, no, I don't, me personally, I don't regret it now. Yeah. He knows, he knows what he's doing, most of the time.

• 52:40Speaker 03

  That's another point for Sam. In the waiting chairs at the front, I meet another guy, black guy. Hang on. Honorary Dominican, according to a barber nearby. He's also sticking with Trump. He wishes ICE would go further. Not technically a Hispanic voter, but I'll give Sam the honorary point. Sam's killing it. His prophecy's coming true.

• 53:13Speaker 03

  Outside, we run into one more person, Rolando Rolone, an older Puerto Rican guy who was sitting on a pink camp chair in front of the store. He's got a cane, aviators on, there's lots of jewelry on his hands and neck. He's been voting Republican for a long time, and he also stands by his vote for Trump.

• 53:33Speaker 05

  Because that job is a tough job, and the mess. It was happened before. It's not easy to fix it in two years.

• 53:43Speaker 03

  He's gonna vote Republican in the midterms, but with one possible exception.

• 53:48Speaker 05

  I understand the government is Democrat, and I admit it, he's doing a good job. Which one? Shapiro. Governor, yeah, yeah, yeah. I gotta be realistic. You know, he's doing a good job. Are you gonna vote for Shapiro for governor? I'm not sure.

• 54:07Speaker 03

  Sam senses opportunity, like when a lion hears a gazelle step on a branch. His head snaps towards the undecided voter.

• 54:20Speaker 03

  Rolando also perks up. He obviously would rather talk to Sam than me. Sam asks him, what do you know about the Republican candidate for governor, Stacey Garrity?

• 54:30Speaker 05

  ¿Qué tú sabes de Stacey Garrity? ¿Sabes algo de ella? Que realmente, eh, no ha hecho, o no le han dado la oportunidad para que ella le diga al pueblo cuál es su plan de trabajo. Yo cono, eh, eh, you speak English. I know Stacey. I can't say that I know her personally. I've done a lot of work with Stacey.

• 54:59Speaker 03

  Sam pulls up pictures on his phone. He's done private security at some Garrity events, and these are of him and Garrity, videos he's taken behind the scenes with her. Also, pictures of her in a uniform. He talks about her military service, her years in Harrisburg as treasurer.

• 55:16Speaker 05

  Oh, it's somebody that you really need to look into, because Stacey Garrity, papi, just la boca. And look up on the information, she's the one running against Shapiro. They just had a debate. There was several times that the moderators had to say to him after he finished answering, "Okay, can you answer the question now?" You know what I mean? Yeah. It's something that you... He monkey around. Right. You know, you know attorneys, brother. They're good at talking and saying stuff. For me, it's different, especially with her, since I've done protection for her so many times. It's different when you go to a place and you see these candidates talk.

• 55:59Speaker 05

  Obviously, they got their, you know, their game face on. It's different when we're in a back room, waiting, and I'm helping her mom get into, you know, into a chair, or, and we're talking. I find her to be a very, very genuine person, someone who really cares. And I believe that she would be the better candidate. That's just my opinion. But it's something you should look into. Yeah, I think that's...

• 56:26Speaker 03

  What's he gonna say, faced with that charismatic cell?

• 56:30Speaker 05

  To be honest with you, I'm not gonna vote for Josh Shapiro after what he told me.

• 56:35Speaker 03

  Somehow, millions of dollars in Stacey Garrity ads hadn't reached him, but Sam did.

• 56:41Speaker 05

  Sam?

• 56:41Speaker 03

  That's one last bonus point for Sam.

• 56:44Speaker 05

  That was crazy. Did you bring me to Republican headquarters disguised as a barber shop? No, brother. What I'm finding is that most of us are still on board. I was a little worried at first, but now, I'm not worried. I think we got this.

• 57:03Speaker 03

  A lot of people are predicting a blue wave.

• 57:05Speaker 05

  For real? I've heard that. I can show you my Facebook. It's all red, brother. From all the people that I've spoken to, I don't see, um, a blue wave coming. I don't see it. It would shock the hell out of me.

• 57:26Speaker 03

  I called the oracle back just days before the election. He's still predicting a red wave, with a Republican winning his local congressional district and Republicans gaining seats in the House and the Senate. For Pennsylvania governor, he says Stacey Garrity will beat Josh Shapiro. All of these predictions are the opposite of what the polls say. On Tuesday, we get to find out if Sam is still the oracle of Allentown.

• 58:02Speaker 03

  Iksri Kandaraja is one of the producers of our show.

• 58:44Speaker 03

  Well, our program was produced today by Lilly Sullivan and edited by David Kestenbaum. The people who put our show together today include Michael Comete, Andrea Lopez Crusado, Emmanuel Jochi, Chana Jaffe-Wald, Adrian Lilly, Seth Lind, Andrea Marx, Miki Meek, Catherine Raimondo, Stowe Nelson, Nadia Raymond, Anthony Roman, Ryan Rumory, Ruby Schwartz, Alyssa Shipp, Christopher Surtala, and Diane Wu. Our managing editor is Sarah Abdurahman. Our senior editors, David Kestenbaum and Nancy Updike. Our executive editors, Emmanuel Berry. This is our very last week with Catherine Raimondo mixing our show. She does such beautiful work that you hear and don't know is hers, but we do. We're gonna miss her. Special thanks today to Victoria Eavis, Chris Moyles, Montana Public Radio, Nathan

• 59:24Speaker 03

  Heller, Mina Ghanasin, Mito Habe Evans, Constance Van Clay, and Jenna Mulster and Julie Rogers at NPR. Our website, thisamericanlife.org, where you can stream our archive of 900 episodes for absolutely free. This is literally the 900th episode right here. Again, thisamericanlife.org. This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange. Quick program note, this is gonna be the last time I mention the live show that we did onstage in Los Angeles. In that show, I told stories, these amazing comedians improvised scenes based on the stories. It's super funny. We filmed it. You can watch it for free by signing up for a free trial, This American Life Partners membership.

• 1:00:06Speaker 03

  And yes, we are doing this, hoping you're gonna try it out, see all the bonus episodes and the other stuff you get, and decide to stick around and support the show. But if you don't, if you just watch the live show and then cancel, no hard feelings, we're still friends. Either way, head to thisamericanlife.org/lifepartners. Use promo code VIDEO for the free trial. That link is also in the show notes. Thanks to Joe Brogdon's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia. You know, this week, the place that he goes for acupuncture, they offered him a job. He told him that's ridiculous.

• 1:00:38Speaker 06

  Why would I go work for the same organization that has stabbed me in the back?

• 1:00:43Speaker 03

  I'm Arrow Glass. Back next week with more stories of This American Life.

• 1:01:02Speaker 03

  Next week on the podcast of This American Life, Sean has tinnitus, a disease where the frequencies that he hears get replaced by a loud buzzing. And to get across to his wife what the world sounds like to him, he created the simulation you're hearing right now.

• 1:01:15Speaker 05

  So this is about what it sounds like in my head right now. Consonants are getting harder to understand, and you're probably able to hear my vowels from my consonants.

• 1:01:25Speaker 03

  Getting other people to understand what's in your head. Next week on the podcast on your local public radio station.

• 1:01:41Speaker 00

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