228. Negotiate Your Way to Success: Empathy, Mirroring, and Labeling

Be ready, stay grounded, and communicate clearly — no matter what’s at stake. Communicating under pressure isn’t just a useful skill — it can be the difference between escalation and resolution. For Chris Voss https://www.fastersmarter.io/guests/christopher-voss/, former FBI hostage negotiator and CEO of The Black Swan Group, it’s a daily discipline built on empathy, self-regulation, and intentional listening. In this expanded conversation from our Spontaneous Speaking miniseries, Voss offers a rare window into the mindset and methods that helped him show up calm, focused, and adaptable when the pressure is sky-high. “Emotional intelligence is an insane accelerator to outcomes,” Voss shares, explaining how empathy, tone, and timing can shift the direction of any conversation. He breaks down techniques like labeling and mirroring, explores how to use silence and word choice strategically, and explains why overthinking can be just as risky as acting too fast. From gut-level pattern recognition to tactical use of voice, Voss shows how communication becomes more impactful when we’re not trying to control — but to connect. In this episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart https://www.fastersmarter.io/, Voss and host Matt Abrahams dive into how negotiation techniques developed for life-or-death situations can be applied far beyond them — offering powerful takeaways for anyone who needs to think clearly under pressure, stay agile in the moment, and communicate effectively when it matters most. Episode Reference Links: Chris Voss https://www.fastersmarter.io/guests/christopher-voss/ Chris’s Book: Never Split the Difference https://www.fastersmarter.io/never-split-the-differenceEp.197 Prep or Perish: Mastering In-the-Moment Communication (1 of 3) https://www.fastersmarter.io/197-prep-or-perish-mastering-in-the-moment-communication-1-of-3/Ep.198 Pause and Effect: Mastering In-the-Moment Communication (2 of 3) https://www.fastersmarter.io/198-pause-and-effect-mastering-in-the-moment-communication-2-of-3/Ep.199 Blunder Pressure: Mastering In-the-Moment Communication (3 of 3) https://www.fastersmarter.io/199-blunder-pressure-mastering-in-the-moment-communication-3-of-3/Ep.203 No Script, No Problem: Final Secrets to Speaking Under Pressure (Bonus) https://www.fastersmarter.io/203-no-script-no-problem-final-secrets-to-speaking-under-pressure-bonus/ Connect: Premium Signup >>>> Think Fast Talk Smart Premium https://www.fastersmarter.io/premium/Email Questions & Feedback >>> [email protected] Transcripts >>>Think Fast Talk Smart Website https://www.fastersmarter.io/228-negotiate-your-way-to-success-empathy-mirroring-and-labeling/Newsletter Signup + English Language Learning >>>FasterSmarter.io http://fastersmarter.io/Think Fast Talk Smart >>>LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/think-fast-talk-smart/,Instagram https://www.instagram.com/thinkfasttalksmart/, YouTube https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6caGRBUYZCmgDGM2RK6mxKB9jG_ccmm3Matt Abrahams >>>LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/maabrahams/ Chapters: (00:00) - Introduction (01:06) - Path to Hostage Negotiation (01:58) - Power of Emotional Intelligence (03:16) - Staying Calm Under Pressure (04:26) - Mental Prep & Mindset (05:34) - Trusting Your Gut (06:14) - Avoiding Overthinking (07:17) - Flexibility in Negotiations (08:31) - Listen More, Talk Less (08:47) - Labeling & Mirroring (11:07) - Tone Shapes Impact (12:22) - The Final Three Questions (16:04) - Conclusion ******** Thank you to our sponsors. These partnerships support the ongoing production of the podcast, allowing us to bring it to you at no cost. Learn more about how Notion https://www.notion.com/?utm_source=podcasts&utm_medium=thinkfast can support your business at notion.com/thinkfast. https://www.notion.com/?utm_source=podcasts&utm_medium=thinkfast Join our Think Fast Talk Smart Learning Community and become the communicator you want to be. https://learning.fastersmarter.io/?redirect_from=podpage

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Matt Abrahams?

  In the moment, conflict is difficult for everyone. In our October newsletter, out now, you will learn ways to help yourself handle these challenges better. Not only do you get specific advice, we're also providing an infographic to help you remember. Find our newsletter on the Think Fast, Talk Smart LinkedIn page or at fastersmarter.io under Resources. While most communication situations are not life and death, sometimes, they can be. We can all learn to handle the pressure when under the gun. My name is Matt Abrahams, and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business. Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.

• 0:42Matt Abrahams?

  As part of our four-part mini-series on spontaneous speaking, we introduced you to a number of coaches whose jobs require successful in-the-moment communication. So many of our listeners found value in our coaches' advice that we wanted to provide you with an opportunity to hear our complete interviews. So today, I'm excited for you to learn from Chris Voss. Chris is a former FBI lead international kidnapping and hostage negotiator. He is the CEO of the Black Swan Group and co-author of Never Split the Difference: Negotiating as If Your Life Depended on It. Let's jump right in and learn from Chris. Chris, welcome. I look forward to our conversation.

• 1:23Speaker 01

  Thank you. Yeah, so do I. Let's go on an exploration here.

• 1:27Matt Abrahams?

  All right. So for over 20 years, you were a lead FBI hostage negotiator. What trainings and experience led you into that role?

• 1:37Speaker 01

  When I specifically began to train for it was when I volunteered on a crisis-suicide hotline in New York City. I was told the best preparation was to volunteer on a suicide hotline, and as it turned out, that was the case. And then after that, you go to the FBI's two-week school at Quantico. If you're a hostage negotiator anywhere on earth, the training at Quantico is one of the trainings you want to go to. And I loved it and I stayed volunteering on the crisis hotline for a couple more years after that. And I did a lot of teaching, but a lot of it is then self-directed and recognizing that it's a perishable skill and not letting it perish.

• 2:20Matt Abrahams?

  What were one or two of the key things you learned from the work you did with the suicide hotline? And maybe even Quantico, what were a couple of the skills they taught you that you think were invaluable to the role you have?

• 2:32Speaker 01

  What I learned was emotional intelligence is an insane accelerator to outcomes. You know, we speculate that the application of empathy accelerates you to wherever you're going to go 14 times faster. And I kind of got an inkling of that on the suicide hotline when they first said, there's a 20-minute time limit on all calls. Like, you've got to be kidding me. There are anecdotal stories all the time of people being on a phone overnight, staying up all night, trying to talk people out of kidding themselves. How can you do this in 20 minutes? And they said, well, as a matter of fact, if you're doing it right, it won't take that long. And that ended up being the case. And, you know, I learned emotional intelligence. They called it reflective listening at the time. This is early 1990s. It's derivative of a psychologist named Carl Rogers.

• 3:18Speaker 01

  But I remember using it on the hotline, thinking like, if this is this effective with people in crisis, why doesn't everybody in my life deserve it? Why don't the, my family, my friends, my colleagues, people I arrest deserve empathy as an FBI agent? And in point of fact, I started applying it on everything that I did.

• 3:38Matt Abrahams?

  You know, you've negotiated in incredibly high-pressure situations where life is on the line. How do you stay calm and collected?

• 3:47Speaker 01

  You know, anything that looks easy, that somebody makes look easy, they put a lot of time into. Now, I really started on the suicide hotline. They would put us on the lines while we were still in training. About halfway through training, they taught us enough to put us on a line supervised. There's somebody right there. Take the phone out of your hand if you start saying stupid stuff to the person on the other hand, which is entirely possible because advice is usually counterproductive. It short circuits their thinking process. So, the first time that I was on the line, I remember saying, hello, this is helpline. Just like that, a supervisor said, your tone of voice is great. I was great.

• 4:31Speaker 01

  And so, I thought, okay, well, I gotta repeat that. You break it down into small pieces. You practice it live and then you practice it in small stakes interactions. I mean, I gotta practice these skills today. It's not bike riding. I gotta practice every day or my skills deteriorate.

• 4:48Matt Abrahams?

  So, it's the notion of practice and finding opportunities that are low stakes to really work on that and to keep those skills fresh. And it sounds like, at least early on, you had a direct mentor sitting there, giving you feedback and advice as you went. And that's also important, I believe. Before you go into a negotiation or a high-stake situation like that, do you do anything to prepare yourself? Do you do some deep breathing, some centering? What do you do to prepare when you walk into one of these situations?

• 5:17Speaker 01

  I do a sort of daily prep because I never know when a high-pressure situation is gonna come at me. So, the cliches, the gratitude exercise first thing in the morning. The phraseology that, you know, this is happening for me, not to me, calms you down in the moment. You gotta practice that. When I was on a, as a hostage negotiator, I had just relied on the process so much that I was good. You know, I don't know for sure how this is gonna come out, but the best outcome is if I just follow the process that I know, you know, use the skills and let it go where it may.

• 5:56Matt Abrahams?

  So, it sounds like there was a bit of a ritual to your practice. It sounds like you continue that practice, but it's really about relying on what you have done and know that you can get through it. When you're under pressure, how do you quickly gather information and adjust your approach? I mean, you constantly must be reading the circumstances and then making adjustments. Do you have things you use to help you make those decisions? Or are you using some kind of pattern recognition?

• 6:23Speaker 01

  Your gut does the pattern recognition. It's not a conscious process. So when you get to the point where you can lean back enough to let your gut kick in, then you're going to be fine.

• 6:36Matt Abrahams?

  Many of us in these high-stakes situations, clearly different than the high-stakes situations you've lived through, we get in our head and we overthink. Do you have ways that help you turn down that volume of overthinking?

• 6:48Speaker 01

  I'm reading Creativity, Inc. by Ed Catmull, the guy who founded Pixar. And he says, you know, the overthinkers make mistakes at the same rate as the people that are quick to pull the trigger. It just takes them longer to make the mistakes because they're overthinking it. And I thought, that makes all the sense in the world. You know, the entrepreneurial organizations who are really operating on gut instinct, they say, you know, make the mistake now, gather the data, fail fast, move forward. You see it over and over and over again. And it never even occurred to me that the overthinkers would not be any more effective than the quick to pull the trigger. It would just take them longer.

• 7:30Speaker 01

  And that insight in Ed's book just really sort of opened my eyes to the dangers, the perils of overthinking.

• 7:39Matt Abrahams?

  Let's talk a little bit more about that. When things don't go as you expected them to go in the moment, are there ways in which you quickly adjust and adapt? Or do you just stay the course and keep things going forward, even if it didn't happen or occur the way you wanted it to? What do you do when things don't go the way you planned?

• 7:58Speaker 01

  The first thing is to realize there is no course. If you only imagine there's one course, then you're going to stick to it when all the data is telling you you're wrong. So in kidnapping negotiations, I'd show up at an embassy and they'd say, how's this going to work out? It's going to work out one of five ways. And we gotta go along for the ride, see which one it is. You know, that would keep me from getting married to a course. So to recognize that it's your desire to wanna think of one path, you're already limiting yourself. Because never be so sure of what you want that you wouldn't take something better. If you can maintain that flexibility in a moment, then you're gonna do really well.

• 8:40Matt Abrahams?

  I think that is such important advice and insight, that there is no one right way. There are many ways, and staying open and agile and curious is what allows you to adjust and adapt as things happen.

• 8:52Speaker 01

  Amen.

• 8:53Matt Abrahams?

  What rules or guidelines do you follow in your messaging when you communicate in negotiations?

• 8:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, in general terms, you know, he or she who talks most loses. If you're explaining, you're losing. You should probably be listening five times more when you're talking.

• 9:09Matt Abrahams?

  Right, and it's really about the understanding that what you are saying or not saying has an impact in that moment on what's going on. I'd like to get into, if you don't mind, sharing some more detail about two specific skills that you mentioned earlier. You mentioned labeling and you mentioned mirroring. Would you mind taking a moment to just share what each of those skills are and the value they bring to you and the work that you do?

• 9:36Speaker 01

  Uh, the value they bring?

• 9:37Matt Abrahams?

  Yeah, the value of labeling and of mirroring.

• 9:41Speaker 01

  Alright, so I just married you.

• 9:43Matt Abrahams?

  And I fell right for it.

• 9:45Speaker 01

  Well, because it feels natural. Marrying is a delightful skill, which is repeating generally the last one to three-ish words of what somebody has said. It could be one word, it really shouldn't be more than five. And it's just repeating them word for word. And in any given communication, and you touched on it a little bit before, you know, what's said, what's unsaid. And the other side, what they hear is, oh, okay, he got what I wanted to say, but he needs a fuller explanation. And so you're drawn to it, and you give fuller explanations. It's actually much more effective than saying to somebody, what did you mean by that? It doesn't require a lot of mental energy. The return of investment of what you said versus how much you hear

• 10:29Speaker 01

  is insane, and that's why they like it. Because I just gotta say three words and the other side will talk for 10 minutes. Now, the label is just...

• 10:38Speaker 01

  Slapping a label on the dynamic or the emotion or a hidden dynamic. Again, I'm coaching a client earlier and they got a vendor that they're dealing with, who's going to make all kinds of excuses for why they couldn't get stuff done. And I said, well, the label here is, it sounds like you're telling me you're incompetent?

• 11:00Speaker 01

  And it's got to be delivered just like that. I hesitated, you know, I did an upward inflection. I just, what are you telling me? If you're a professional and you agreed on a job, and then you came back afterwards with all kinds of excuses, somewhere along the line, what you're telling me is you didn't know what you were doing. And the important thing about a label is it's got to be a dynamic the other side introduces. You cannot introduce it. The other side has to introduce it and it's fair game.

• 11:29Matt Abrahams?

  What's interesting to me, I mean, you did a great job describing it. So I don't feel like I have to re-explain it. But what's interesting to me is how important the way in which you say your mirror or label plays out in it. So it's not just the words, it's the way you say those words. So that combination of non-verbal presence and the verbal presence matter in this. And a lot of us fixate on just the words. And what I'm hearing you say is it's much more than that.

• 11:56Speaker 01

  Being in law enforcement, then I'm always going to come up with law enforcement analogies. And so tone is like the rifling on a bullet. Now a bullet comes out of a barrel and the things inside of the barrel of a gun called lands and grooves that actually spin the bullet. So that when it comes out, it goes in a straight line. It's the same thing as when you throw a baseball, you spin the ball. A baseball pitch with no spin is called a knuckleball. And that thing goes all over the place and nobody knows where the hell it's going to land. And so for your words to hit the target, you know, the, the very label I used before, I could say, it sounds like you're telling me you're incompetent. Now that's an insult, that tone of voice is an accusation, it's insulting. But if I say, it sounds like you're telling me you're competent? Same words.

• 12:41Matt Abrahams?

  Right.

• 12:42Speaker 01

  Land a thousand percent different.

• 12:44Matt Abrahams?

  One of the things, Chris, I really appreciate is you've done a really nice job of using analogies and analogies are really useful. While I don't know much about guns and bullets, it's very clear that spin matters. We'll be right back to finish our conversation. But first, we're going to take a quick break for a word from our sponsors. Their support covers the cost of production so we can bring you this show for free.

• 13:05Matt Abrahams?

  This podcast is sponsored by Squarespace. The best communicators don't just get their message across, they make it easy for people to know what to do next. Your website can do the same thing. With Squarespace, you can build a polished online presence that clearly shows people who you are, what you offer, and how they can work with you. If you offer coaching, consulting, classes, or other services, Squarespace lets you showcase those offerings, take payments, and use Acuity Scheduling so people can book time with you directly. And with built-in analytics, you can see how people are finding and engaging with your site, helping you make smarter decisions about where to focus. So your online presence doesn't just look professional, it helps people take action.

• 13:47Matt Abrahams?

  Go to Squarespace.com/thinkfast for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code THINKFAST to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Hi, Matt here. Sometimes the biggest obstacle to getting something done isn't the idea, the plan, or even the budget. It's finding the right person to help you execute. And the longer that takes, the easier it is to lose momentum. That's where today's sponsor, Upwork, can help. Upwork gives businesses fast access to highly skilled freelance professionals across areas like marketing, design, software development, AI, and business operations. And with Business Plus, you can access the top 1% of talent on Upwork.

• 14:31Matt Abrahams?

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• 14:58Matt Abrahams?

  So before we end, I'd like to ask you three questions that I'm asking everybody who's part of this mini-series on spontaneous speaking. Are you up for doing that?

• 15:07Speaker 01

  Let's go for it. See what happens.

• 15:09Matt Abrahams?

  Chris, I'd love to know, who is a communicator you admire and why?

• 15:14Speaker 01

  Oprah Winfrey.

• 15:15Matt Abrahams?

  Tell me why.

• 15:16Speaker 01

  So she has dealt with some of the most volatile people on planet Earth. I've had some very specific conversations relayed to me in detail where she has taken celebrities to the woodshed over their behavior. I mean, she has the ability to maintain relationships even with differences of opinion. I'm a big fan. I'm a huge fan.

• 15:34Matt Abrahams?

  Question number two, while those listening in likely aren't going to have to speak in situations like you do, what advice would you give for them to speak better in the moment in general?

• 15:46Speaker 01

  Just take your time. There's so much of advantage while you're speaking to slow down a little. You know, let the moment play out. Some people take their time in speaking because they're determined to maintain control of the conversation. They'll only pause mid-sentence so they don't get interrupted. So slowing the conversation down so you can absorb more information, so you can be more in the moment is not the same as slowing down to stay in control. If you slow down to be more connected with somebody in the moment, to hear them, to make them feel heard, you give yourself time to analyze in the moment, you're going to be a much better communicator.

• 16:25Matt Abrahams?

  This notion of pausing and slowing things down, I think, is really, really important. I want to add an exclamation point to that. In these spontaneous speaking situations, we feel such pressure to respond immediately, and you remind us that slowing down actually affords us lots of opportunity. Final question for you. I want to switch roles on you. I'm the professor, but I'm going to have you be the professor. I'd like you to give me some homework. What is one communication thing that you would encourage me to do in my life that simulates the things that you do so I can get better, in your case, with negotiations and handling high-pressure situations? Is there one thing you'd give me homework to practice?

• 17:05Speaker 01

  Spend a day with whatever somebody says to you. Say, "Seems like you have a reason for saying that." Somebody says, "Hey, man, what a sunny day. Seems like you got a reason for saying that." Somebody says to you, "You know, if you don't vote for so-and-so, you're betraying the American people." Seems like you got a reason for saying that. Just give yourself a day to experiment with that phrase, no matter what people say. You can come back with your opinion, your observation. It doesn't preclude you for any of the natural things you want to say. I promise you, you spend a day doing that, you are going to have four or five conversations. Just the vast majority of them are going to open up in ways you didn't imagine possible.

• 17:49Matt Abrahams?

  I really like that. It opens up the door for more information to come out. So there's more data, as you've talked about. My mother-in-law, who I believe had a black belt in small talk, she used to say, "Tell me more."

• 18:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's encouraging.

• 18:03Matt Abrahams?

  Exactly. Chris, this has been fantastic. You've given us lots of insight into how empathy can be an accelerant and really encouraging us to slow down, be present, and respond not in one course or one way, but be open to responding in a way that's needed in the moment. Thank you so much.

• 18:23Speaker 01

  A pleasure as mine. Thanks for having me on.

• 18:30Matt Abrahams?

  Thank you so much for joining us for another episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the Podcast. To learn more from our spontaneous speaking coaches, listen to our four-part mini-series, Episodes 197, 198, 199, and 203. You can also go to fastersmarter.io/spontaneous. This episode was produced by Catherine Reed, Michael Riley, and me, Matt Abrahams. Our music is from Floyd Wunder. With thanks to Podium Podcast Company, be sure to subscribe and rate us. Also, follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram. And check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language learning content, and our newsletter.

• 19:12Matt Abrahams?

  Please consider our premium offering for extended Deep Thinks episodes, Ask Matt Anythings, and much more at fastersmarter.io/premium. Before we wrap up, I just want to say thank you for listening. It really means a lot to hear how people all over the world are using these ideas in their own lives. It inspires me and the whole team that brings you this show. If you want more episodes and resources, feel free to follow, subscribe, and explore past conversations. We're grateful for your support of Think Fast, Talk Smart.