The Basement: Brian Laythe | Ghosts, Possession, and Shadow People

-Don’t sleep on [@ultrapouches]. New customers get 15% Off with code BASEMENT at https://takeultra.com! #UltraPouches #ad -Discover how to move your IRA or 401k into physical gold and silver — with no taxes or penalties. Get your free portfolio review and free gold & silver guide from GoldenCrest Metals: visit https://whyfileslovegold.com or call (888) 949-9172 now. -Ready to reach your goals? Visit https://hims.com/thewhyfiles to get a personalized, affordable plan that gets you. Dr. Brian Laythe has spent fifteen years pointing cameras and EMF meters at haunted places, and he'll tell you straight when something's explainable. Then there's the rectory in Cincinnati. Two people, two nights, the same thing coming through them — and a team that never fully recovered. We get into the blue flame, the beach balls, and the one room he refuses to go back to. Bring coffee. LAYTHE LINKS: www.israenet.org Book: "Ghosted!: Exploring the Haunting Reality of Paranormal Encounters" Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:25Speaker 01

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• 0:48AJ Gentile?

  Today I'm talking with Dr. Brian Lath, a social psychologist who spent years hauling truckloads of equipment into haunted houses that did the thing almost nobody does in his field. He published the numbers. Three studies, and in all three, the electromagnetic field shifted right before something happened. Shadow figures out of a basement with no other exit. Beach balls off a bed 11 times in an hour and nobody knows why.

• 1:11Speaker 03

  Beach balls off a bed? That's not a haunting human. That's a bachelorette party losing their damage deposit.

• 1:19AJ Gentile?

  I don't get it. Anyway, how do you know what goes on at a bachelorette party?

• 1:23Speaker 03

  I used to be an exotic dancer. My stage name was Magic Pike.

• 1:29AJ Gentile?

  Okay.

• 1:31Speaker 03

  You're so jelly on my wrist.

• 1:34AJ Gentile?

  Today we're covering what ghost hunting shows get wrong about those blinking meters, why Brian isn't convinced hauntings are dead people, and a personality scale that predicts who has these experiences.

• 1:45Speaker 03

  Not dead people, huh? Well, I guess grandma's off the hook.

• 1:49AJ Gentile?

  Off the hook for what?

• 1:51Speaker 03

  Well, every noise in the attic we blamed on her for like 20 years. Turns out it's probably just a raccoon or a squatter. Who knows?

• 2:00AJ Gentile?

  And there's an abandoned rectory in Cincinnati where he told the owners to shut down. That story ended his field work. And after hearing it, I wouldn't go back either. After our conversation, I'll come back and break everything down. Let's go down to the basement.

• 2:21AJ Gentile?

  Okay, I read your dissertation. Loved it.

• 2:29AJ Gentile?

  You hired actors to insult fraternities to attack their beliefs.

• 2:34Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:34AJ Gentile?

  What was going on there?

• 2:38Speaker 04

  When I was in graduate school, before I officially got into parapsychology, I was really interested in the idea of social identity theory, which is in essence, a theory that says when you label groups and make them different, you will instantly get bias. You will instantly get prejudice. And it's silly because it's not talked about a lot, but it is a hugely robust area of social psychology research. It's not two or three papers. It's a couple of hundred.

• 3:08AJ Gentile?

  I bet.

• 3:10Speaker 04

  And so the whole point of the dissertation was if I bring an actress or an actor into these groups and I basically tell the group that they're a piece of crap, right?

• 3:22AJ Gentile?

  Well, put us in the room. What's, who's the group and what are the attacks?

• 3:25Speaker 04

  Well, I, man, this is 20 something years ago. So I did religious groups. I did fraternities and sororities, and I did a couple of political groups. And I actually had to extend my dissertation time because I actually ended up going to, I think, I want to say at least three, if not four colleges or universities to get enough groups to do it.

• 3:46AJ Gentile?

  It was a chunky paper.

• 3:47Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm surprised you pulled up my dissertation. So we would-

• 3:53AJ Gentile?

  Well, hang on. Your dissertation is the whole theme of your career, that dissertation.

• 3:59Speaker 04

  You think so?

• 4:00AJ Gentile?

  I do indeed. It's all about, it's all about beliefs and, and how if someone has a belief that's strong enough, no matter how much you insult or attack it, they will not waver.

• 4:10Speaker 04

  Yes. Yeah, no, I mean, you're absolutely right. That was incredibly insightful. I should have caught that.

• 4:17Speaker 04

  Well, yes, because my, the reason I even got into graduate school was I started in psychology of religion, right? So the idea was let's look at group differences. Let's look at what happens when you bring a actress in who says, I am mad at your group, you did this to me, you did that to me, which was essentially what they would do. They would claim to be from another student organization.

• 4:37AJ Gentile?

  Tell us what specifically, give the attack.

• 4:40Speaker 04

  I am trying to remember. It's like-

• 4:42AJ Gentile?

  Then make it up, then make it up.

• 4:43Speaker 04

  Oh, make it up, okay. You look funny and smell, no, there was, if I remember.

• 4:49AJ Gentile?

  Like conservative kids, liberal kids?

• 4:52Speaker 04

  Yep. Several sororities, several fraternities. The claim was they came from a rival student organization.

• 4:59AJ Gentile?

  Sure.

• 5:00Speaker 04

  And that they had complaints about people's behavior in the group. And I did keep, I did actually keep the manipulation rather generic because I didn't want them to be able to track or trace.

• 5:10AJ Gentile?

  Sure.

• 5:10Speaker 04

  Right? By the way, ethics review for that one was not fun, getting that approved. Oh, Lord. So they would just basically come in and make very generic complaints about other people's behavior in the group and how they should know better and you shouldn't treat people this way, et cetera, et cetera. And I set up like a three-stage assessment, right? So how much did you like the group before we did this? Then I'd have the person come in and give the complaint and I'd be like, now that you've heard this complaint, because my whole claim for making this believable was I'm a representative of the student council and, you know, various bureaucracies of the college. This is a new technique we're trying out because, you know, we want to give people voices and let people respond to complaints, right?

• 5:54Speaker 04

  So I tried to make it sound bureaucratic and believable.

• 5:57AJ Gentile?

  It does.

• 5:57Speaker 04

  Yeah, I tried. I think some of them saw through it, but you did the best you could. It was a pretty overt manipulation. So then I'd give those same ratings again after the complaint. And here's what's interesting. So I'd have the actress come out, then I would do a complete debunking, right? Guys, I'm full of crap. I would literally like, and I'd literally say that, like, guys, I'm full of crap. None of this is true. This is Talia. She's an actress. That was one of, her name was Talia, lovely person. You know, come in and say hi, and she'd wave and kind of bow and walk out. And I'd say now, but before you go, I want you to fill out this sheet one more time. Because one of the variables I was interested in was what's called belief perseverance. And it kind of ties into confirmation bias, which is more popular nowadays.

• 6:39Speaker 04

  But there were earlier studies that basically showed that once a person buys into an idea, right? And of course, we see this in marketing and everything else, right?

• 6:48AJ Gentile?

  You see this everywhere.

• 6:49Speaker 04

  Yeah. And also, of course, you know, where campaign money goes to affect you, right? Democrats never try to influence Republicans and vice versa. You go for the middle. But belief perseverance research basically says, once you establish that somebody is good or bad at a thing, and it's given, not even really have to be given by an authority figure, they tend to persist in that belief. The early studies were interesting because they divide groups into people who are going to evaluate suicide notes.

• 7:19AJ Gentile?

  Wow.

• 7:20Speaker 04

  Whether they were, and I'm a bad academic, I can't remember the actual names of the authors of that study. But they would come in with group A and go, you know what? You were really good at distinguishing these suicide notes. And then they'd come into group B and they'd go, oh, man, you suck at this. You're only getting like 10% of these right. And then at the end of it, they do the same thing I did in my dissertation, which was, guys, we're liars. None of this is true. We're academics. We're the experts that told you this. And by the way, we just lied. Does everybody understand that, right? And they're like, uh huh. Before you go, how good do you think you are at evaluating suicide notes? They completely persisted in their belief.

• 7:56AJ Gentile?

  They did?

• 7:56Speaker 04

  Yes. So the people that were told they were good at it, even though the whole thing was a sham and proven to be a sham, they're like, I'm really good at evaluating suicide notes. And the other group was like, I'm bad at it. It just, it persisted. True to form back to the dissertation, I do ramble. I used to be a professor, sorry. When I'd look at the change-

• 8:15AJ Gentile?

  Your student ratings, by the way, you mentioned that.

• 8:17Speaker 04

  The student ratings?

• 8:18AJ Gentile?

  Yeah. Have you read your ratings from students?

• 8:20Speaker 04

  No, I don't look, no. You don't look, do you look at your comments?

• 8:23AJ Gentile?

  Absolutely not.

• 8:24Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 8:24AJ Gentile?

  Absolutely not. Your reviews are very good.

• 8:27Speaker 04

  Oh, thank you.

• 8:27AJ Gentile?

  They say you're snarky, you will insult someone, but you can take it. You ramble, but it's always brilliant.

• 8:34Speaker 04

  Well, that's, that is awesome to hear, and I'm still not going to look at my comments. It's been about seven, eight years now since I've been a regular professor. But no, the point of the dissertation, and I am rambling again, there was about a 15 to 18% shift, if I remember, in negativity. So what was your value of the group, you know, beforehand to after my actress insulted you? And you'd see about a 15 to 18% drop. And then of course, after we said, hey, this is all BS. Their ratings didn't change a bit. That 15 to 18% drop persisted even after we gave them every excuse in the world not to believe in it anymore. And it was across ideology. And that was one of my major claims.

• 9:17Speaker 04

  And it's not a unique claim, but I was kind of driving home the point, which was, you know, this stuff happens regardless of whether we're dealing with religion, whether we're dealing with politics, whether we're dealing with affiliation with a sorority or fraternity. This appears to be a generic phenomenon. Like this belief perseverance tendency and group ideology is just something, it doesn't matter what your belief system is. You can be pro Red Cross, you can be pro feminist, you can be pro MAGA, doesn't matter.

• 9:46AJ Gentile?

  Doesn't matter.

• 9:46Speaker 04

  The group effect is the group effect.

• 9:48AJ Gentile?

  Well, you had an interesting hypothesis that I think turned out to be wrong, which was if you are attacked from within your group, it will sting more. And that turned out not to be the case.

• 9:57Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 9:58AJ Gentile?

  So what was that like with a committee watching? It's midnight. I'm three hours deep into research for next week's episode, cross referencing declassified documents and half crazy witness statements, and my brain is starting to fog. That's usually when I reach for coffee, except coffee at midnight means staring at the ceiling until 3 a.m. instead of sleeping. That's the exact trade off Ultra was built to solve. Ultra Focus Pouches use something called Infinity Paraxanthine, a caffeine metabolite that gives you the mental lift without the jitters, the crash, or wrecking your sleep later. No nicotine, no caffeine, just paraxanthine plus L-theanine, alpha GPC, ginseng, and B vitamins doing the actual work.

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• 11:22AJ Gentile?

  Please support the show and tell them you heard from us.

• 11:25Speaker 04

  Well, okay, now, there's some exceptions to that because there is the scapegoat effect. Because what people don't think about is, I belong to group X. Well, actually, the easiest way to think about this is Protestant religions, right? 400 years, 4,000 denominations. Why did that happen? You start with one church, somebody decides that God's toe is blue, a subset decides that God's toe is green, let's fight about it. And what happens? You get a schism and you get a new denomination.

• 11:52AJ Gentile?

  Yep.

• 11:53Speaker 04

  So, and this is one of the really big points about the power of belief systems, which, you know, ties into conspiracy theory and all the stuff that you guys carry on about, which I love, is whenever you get a disagreement within a subgroup, you have this risk of creating a new nested in-group out-group. And depending on how severe it is, you may end up getting that schism and a split. And of course, organizational psychologists and really anybody in business or anybody with an organization knows this as well. But the data is pretty clear on that. So, yeah, you know, that unity and that need for unity drives, I think, a lot more than people realize in terms of what people advocate and don't.

• 12:36AJ Gentile?

  We were talking before we went to air about academic gatekeeping. It sounds like this applies there as well.

• 12:43Speaker 04

  Oh, God, yes. And, you know, it's like, it's almost, it is religious. You know, how dare you speak of the heresy of non-objectivity, but it's never been objective. And I think, and to be fair to academia, is there really any business, any group, anywhere in the world, that is truly objective? And everyone from experience, whether you're working at a Walmart or whether you're working for a large corporation, like, I don't like that mythology that we promote, that somehow there are these groups, these organizations, that are pure and clean of human nature and behavior.

• 13:23AJ Gentile?

  Ha.

• 13:24Speaker 04

  Yeah, exactly. So, but no, academia is political. And even though that's heresy to say, we shouldn't be surprised by that. Everything is political. So, yeah, you know, I will say, you can publish parapsychology-related topics more easily today, particularly in the last 10 to 12 years. More mainstream journals will accept, you know, anomalies, right? Anomaly psychology, anomalistic psychology, or parapsychology. And now you do have to jump through a few more hoops. And if you've got a decent editor, they may just desk reject it. You won't even get to peer review. They're like, no. And in some ways, you're like, thank you, right? Because, but it can be done.

• 14:08Speaker 04

  You know, I think maybe 20 years ago, if you had an anomalous topic, you were gonna have to go to the parapsychology journals or the anomalistic journals, you know, JSE, PA, all of those, right? Nowadays, there is a select set of maybe 10 to 15 different journals that if you don't get too ridiculous in your claims, they will take your manuscript and the peer review will not be atrocious. There are sometimes exceptions.

• 14:36AJ Gentile?

  Dr. Eric Worgo sat right there, and he's a pretty accomplished social scientist. And he said psychologists were the most aggressive, most heinous on the subject.

• 14:47Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 14:48AJ Gentile?

  Like, almost like we're attacking their belief system.

• 14:51Speaker 04

  Yes. Yes. It has been my, this is just my personal experience, so I'm not trying to judge the entire field. I find that there is more ideological capture in the social sciences than there is, like in STEM fields. I think I've even seen some surveys that suggest that the physicist and the biologist is like, yeah, ghosts, maybe. But you get over into psychology, sociology, even anthropology, and they're like, no.

• 15:27AJ Gentile?

  This is left brain, left brain, right brain drift. That's what's happening.

• 15:30Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 15:31AJ Gentile?

  I mean, social sciences are emotional.

• 15:33Speaker 04

  They are, but I would still expect them to do the things that scientists are supposed to do, which is, I don't care what your topic is, what your research design look like and what does the data say.

• 15:44AJ Gentile?

  Yes.

• 15:45Speaker 04

  But that, I think, has probably been a myth in all science. But again, it's not a condemning thing for me to say this. Where are you not going to find ideological bias? In a social human system where everyone has attached belief systems that they prefer to use, and then, of course, monetary and reward and everything else structures that are piled on top of it.

• 16:06AJ Gentile?

  Sure, funding.

• 16:07Speaker 04

  Yeah. And to pretend that that doesn't matter, like, the ethical person will, you know, kill their family and go without a job so that their kids starve, no, they're not going to.

• 16:16AJ Gentile?

  No.

• 16:17Speaker 04

  So, it's, it is a political game, not one that I enjoy, and I try to stay away from it as much as possible.

• 16:23AJ Gentile?

  Yeah, it's like, what's the NSF into this year?

• 16:26Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 16:29AJ Gentile?

  Tell me about the VHS tape that you wish you still had.

• 16:32Speaker 04

  Oh, the fire experiment, okay. Man, you dick. This was, okay, so, story time. This was when I first decided, I think it was 2009, and I'm like, okay, I'm gonna grab me some community college students and we're going to ghost hunt. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna go all in. You know, so I got the equipment, you know, because I'd loved parapsychology for years. I was in the closet, you know, on the down low, reading it, you know, reading a bunch of books. And of course, had a strong religion background. I'd already started studying various religions and various magical and esoteric practices as well. So, we went to this house that, the story was, and I think it was our first official

• 17:13Speaker 04

  investigation, had a nice camera setup, had some EMF meters, like, yay. And the lady had a disabled child. And she told us that there were toys turning on and off, right? Nothing, you know, that's, that's happens, right? And that her kid was seeing scratches.

• 17:34AJ Gentile?

  Wow, okay.

• 17:36Speaker 04

  They couldn't account for some of the wounds and scratches that were on the kid's body. And so they asked us to come and do an investigation. And of course, we did, and we set up cameras. At the time, my dear friend Kay Owen, who kind of trained me on the ways of ghost hunting back in the day, was with us, and she had old-school VHS tape recorders, right?

• 17:56AJ Gentile?

  Yep.

• 17:57Speaker 04

  So, honestly, not a super eventful night. I think, in particular, nothing, you know, just insanely crazy happened. But of course, we assigned the footage and started to do the review. One side note, did see a kind of a shadow person, black figure, in one of the films. But this is, and I've never seen this since, and on our scale, this is one of the rarest things to see. On the SSE, this is like, you know, you do not get a high endorsement of this. I get a call from her, she's like, you gotta see this. I'm like, okay, Kay, what's going on? She's like, you just gotta see this. So she pops in this VHS tape. And I want to be clear, this was a double-wide, like a double-wide trailer, right? So, we were in the kitchen, dining room was, I use my hands, I hope that's okay.

• 18:42Speaker 04

  Dining room was right here, kitchen was right here, we had the setup right here. We're talking six, seven feet away. We had eyes on that dining room the entire time. There was never a point in time that anyone wasn't, just because that's where the base camp was, right? So, we're watching this video, and I did not see this. We, like I said, we watched this the entire time. And on this video, I kid you not, there was a four, I'd say probably a four to six-foot gout of blue flame.

• 19:08AJ Gentile?

  Blue?

• 19:08Speaker 04

  Blue flame, yes. No lie, blue flame, I'll swear to it, to my dying day, struck, and this had carpet in the dining room, shot straight up out of the middle of the dining room carpet, I'd say for about two and a half seconds. Just tall. I mean, a gout, like somebody had stuck a fireworks nozzle, right, or a gas nozzle, and shot straight up. And never seen it since. And what was interesting was, it was only on film.

• 19:39AJ Gentile?

  What was the room like?

• 19:41Speaker 04

  The room was, again, it was one of those small, you know, kind of dining room areas that you see in like a double-wide trailer.

• 19:48AJ Gentile?

  But was there residue? Was there smell?

• 19:50Speaker 04

  Nothing that I, nothing that I can remember, because we saw it post hoc. It was only on the VHS tape.

• 19:55AJ Gentile?

  Blue flame is a chemical fire.

• 19:58AJ Gentile?

  Wow. So yeah, I wish you had that tape.

• 20:00Speaker 04

  I wish I had that tape. Um, and, and I, it's probably gone by now. And so, you know, it's, it's an anecdotal story at this point. Um, but no, to this day, I'm like, how the hell did that happen? Um, you know, and I would definitely put that as, you know, that was anomalous. Because again, we walked back and we had wires set up and if we walked past that room and into that room, probably 50 times that night, we would have seen a scorch mark and it would have left a scorch mark.

• 20:24AJ Gentile?

  Cause it was four or six feet high.

• 20:26Speaker 04

  Yeah, there was, there was no tube or like, in other words, it wasn't like a, it, it appeared above the grave. It was like straight up out of the carpet. So I would imagine, you know, certainly, and certainly the owner would have been like, hey, who's been smoking cigarettes in my house?

• 20:38AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 20:38Speaker 04

  Right? Um, no, nothing. And again, now, Kay at the time was like, this is a bad sign. She said, I've only seen this three times. She had like a 20 year history at that point. She's like, normally people's houses burned down.

• 20:50AJ Gentile?

  Mm hmm.

• 20:50Speaker 04

  When this comes, when I'm like, oh, uh, luckily that didn't happen.

• 20:54AJ Gentile?

  Within a month and a half or so, she said, right?

• 20:56Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 20:57AJ Gentile?

  The house, the house stayed standing?

• 20:58Speaker 04

  Yep. Nope. No problems.

• 21:00AJ Gentile?

  What, did you ever figure out what was going on in that house?

• 21:03Speaker 04

  Um, well, you know, that, that's kind of a loaded question because even from the get go, we never tried to do overt explanations. And I have, I have to admit, looking back on it, I, I wish I'd have done more, um, care support. Cause you know, at the time I was young and eager and I wanted to capture objective phenomena. I was trying to devise a method for kind of reliably separating.

• 21:24AJ Gentile?

  Yeah.

• 21:24Speaker 04

  Uh, this stuff kind of objectively, right? You know, into, into core classifications. Um, to my knowledge, uh, you know, I, I don't know if it ever resolved. I do know she had two friends and they were like drinking margaritas on the front porch. Um, and I also remember Kesha's Tik Tok had just come out, which is an odd memory.

• 21:41AJ Gentile?

  Okay.

• 21:42Speaker 04

  Just to kind of put together there. Um, but no, we never had a clear explanation. Uh, we did go through the toys. They did turn on for us kind of by themselves and behave oddly. So, you know, a little bit of anomalousness there. Um, but in terms of finding any source for where the scratches or cuts could come from, or, you know, deep voices, you know, from Beelzebub telling them that the child was possessed. Nope. Nothing like that.

• 22:03AJ Gentile?

  When you're doing the research like that, especially when you're blown away by, I guess it would be pyrokinesis.

• 22:08Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 22:10AJ Gentile?

  Do you forget that there's people there? There's, there's people in distress there?

• 22:14Speaker 04

  Yeah. And, and, you know, one of the things we ended up doing fairly early on in those days was we moved away from residential's residential hauntings because they are, and of course now with more years and experience, you know, you need a lot more support for, for those individuals, you know?

• 22:30AJ Gentile?

  Yeah.

• 22:31Speaker 04

  What happens on the television shows? I'm not saying it's wrong, but it, it is promoting a particular point of view. Um, and, and nowadays I would say absolutely, you need to ask what their expectations are and you need to investigate what their state of mind is, you know, psychological history. Um, and, and then really just ask, what do you want us to do here?

• 22:51AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 22:51Speaker 04

  Do you want us to, to try and debunk this? Do you want us to just document the evidence? Um, if you're looking for a cleansing, we don't do that. Um, you know, and hindsight, uh, you know, it could have been done better back in the day.

• 23:04AJ Gentile?

  I bet most people just went validation. I just want someone else to see this.

• 23:07Speaker 04

  They do, but that becomes problematic with residential's, but residential investigations because if you don't get the evidence or you go, actually this is really explainable, uh, they don't tend to like that.

• 23:18AJ Gentile?

  No, cause we're back to your study again.

• 23:20Speaker 04

  Yeah. Um, and in those days, I really, really tried to say, you know, we're being scientists here. We're going to come in, we're going to, you know, try and get the best data we can, and we're going to try and rule out whatever we can. Um, and beyond that, we'll let you know if we found something, but you know, we don't, we'd say upfront, you know, we don't do exorcisms, we don't do cleansings, we don't do X, Y, and Z. Um, yeah, the, the belief component, uh, obviously, uh, from ghosted and, and other papers is such a powerful component. Uh, there's almost quasi-therapy going on.

• 23:52AJ Gentile?

  Yes.

• 23:53Speaker 04

  Um, and that raises some ethical issues too.

• 23:55AJ Gentile?

  Mm hmm. Well, before the vocabulary and transliminality and all of that, before you knew what any of this was called, what happened to you? Like as a five-year-old?

• 24:09Speaker 04

  I have had a long series of, uh, you know, and to make the skeptics happy. Uh, if you want to say hypnagogic episode or altered state of consciousness or, you know, whatever, fine. I, I don't even really care. Um, but I've had a series of, uh, kind of paranormal experiences from a young age, um, including some, some pretty negative encounter, encounters in my early, uh, early years, like say 12 or 13, that actually led me to become religious, uh, because it scared me so bad. Um, I was like, okay, I'm, I, I need to have a talk with God.

• 24:41AJ Gentile?

  Yes.

• 24:42Speaker 04

  Um, and I, I won't lie. I think that's probably shaped a lot of the course of my life. Uh, now if, you know, it's, it's tricky. I, I don't know if I'm really different or not, but I, I try to make a distinction between explaining the thing doesn't tell you why it occurred in the first place.

• 25:02AJ Gentile?

  Of course.

• 25:03Speaker 04

  Um, but I don't think that distinction is commonly made, um, in science, and I don't think it's commonly made in, um, in a lot of discussions of the paranormal. Uh, let me kind of tangent, give you an example.

• 25:15AJ Gentile?

  Okay.

• 25:16Speaker 04

  Let's say I had a, a Star Trek tricorder, right?

• 25:19AJ Gentile?

  Cool.

• 25:19Speaker 04

  And so I got to time travel and I'm going to go back and I'm going to witness the resurrection of, of Jesus, right? And so I put my tricorder out and then hopefully this isn't offending anybody with blasphemy. And I, now suddenly I have all the information, right? I'm like, oh, look, this cellular, cellular structures did this and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I can explain this now. Well, okay, great. But the guy still came back from the dead.

• 25:45AJ Gentile?

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• 26:30AJ Gentile?

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• 26:55Speaker 04

  Right. Right. I mean, so.

• 26:56AJ Gentile?

  Right. Still, he still did it.

• 26:58Speaker 04

  Yeah. The, the why is not the how.

• 26:59AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 27:00Speaker 04

  Uh, so, you know, I, I had.

• 27:02AJ Gentile?

  Exactly right. It's, that's a great way of putting it. You could show the data and people would say, yeah, but he did it.

• 27:07Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 27:07AJ Gentile?

  That's, that's neat, but he did it.

• 27:09Speaker 04

  Yeah. Because really we're digging into what are the fundamental mechanisms of the universe.

• 27:13AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 27:14Speaker 04

  In the sense of, and, and you know, here's a bit of a bender and I promise I'll come back to paranormal experiences. We talk about chance all the time, right? Um, and there, there may be some philosophers of science that are going to get mad at me about this. How do you know it's chance? I'm talking about the normal distribution. There is a distribution of odds for dice, right? And we say it's, it's going to perform in this certain way. And we know there's a certain odds of getting, you know, two, two six-sided dices. Um, there's a certain odds of getting two, there's a certain odds of getting 12, and those are universal. But with a particular roll, I got a seven. Well, that's chance. How do you know it's chance? What's the actual mechanism? What's the actual thing that gave

• 27:55Speaker 04

  you a seven? And, and the honest answer is, we don't know. You can call it God, you can call it chance, you can call it, you know, probability gremlins. There's no answer for that mechanism. So I separate this idea of, uh, you know, obviously laws and probability and math works. Um, another way to, to think about it, we know there's a relationship, a really well-done relationship between depression and anxiety. And you might see in a research paper, you know, uh, depression is significantly related to anxiety. Well, what happens if I change that language to sadness demons bring, bring anxious demons? I just changed the words.

• 28:36AJ Gentile?

  I can't, I can't say for you're wrong.

• 28:38Speaker 04

  Yeah. I mean, the math doesn't change. The statistical outcomes don't change. The methods don't change.

• 28:44AJ Gentile?

  As someone who has depression and anxiety, it does feel like demons.

• 28:47Speaker 04

  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, that, that, well, that's a whole nother tangent. But, but, and again, I'm not doing this, you know, to engage in sophistry. I'm not, but one of the things that I've, I've really had to struggle with over the decades is making sense of God, the universe. It's, it's something that I've just kind of been obsessed with for a long time. I'm not claiming to have those answers, but it is something that I think about all the time.

• 29:11AJ Gentile?

  If you claim to have the answers, I wouldn't believe you.

• 29:13Speaker 04

  Well, and you shouldn't. Uh, you know, I, I don't require anyone to agree with what I, and, and that's, that's the point. You don't have to agree with me and you might not want to. Um, but I do recognize when humans pretend to know something versus when we're like, we have these rules and we know these rules work well. Um, but the map is not the territory. And, and that's not even an opinion. That's, that's objectively demonstrable.

• 29:39AJ Gentile?

  Yes.

• 29:40Speaker 04

  Um, so full circle. Um, you know, I, I had an experience when I was 12 or 13. I, I had some hypnagogic episodes when I was younger.

• 29:48AJ Gentile?

  Hypnagogic, meaning before sleep?

• 29:50Speaker 04

  Uh, yeah. Yeah. Or, or waking up, or I actually had a spiritual experience. Who knows, right? Uh, too young and it's not like there was psychologists to do a checklist at the time.

• 30:00AJ Gentile?

  I had one too, and we're going to talk about it a little bit later in the show.

• 30:02Speaker 04

  Um, well, I, I remember before that happened, I, being nine or 10 and waking up and, and I swear to you, there was a Tyrannosaurus Rex downstairs.

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• 30:58AJ Gentile?

  Downstairs?

• 30:59Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 31:00AJ Gentile?

  So you got out of bed?

• 31:01Speaker 04

  No, I didn't. I sat up and I heard, I heard a T-Rex, whole roar, big footsteps. Roar, roar.

• 31:08AJ Gentile?

  How do you know it wasn't like an allosaur or a triceratops?

• 31:12Speaker 04

  Cause I'm psychic.

• 31:14AJ Gentile?

  Okay.

• 31:15Speaker 04

  Never mind the hallway was only three foot wide, it was a T-Rex, damn it. And honestly, it was freaking me out and I remember screaming. I remember screaming for my mom at the time. Now, I did start to catch on after about the 20th footstep, I'm like, wait a minute, there's like 12 steps here. Right? And then of course, the next thing I know, and that's why I think it was a hypnagogic experience, is my mom was in the doorway. I didn't see her come into the doorway, just, right?

• 31:43AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 31:44Speaker 04

  And for the listener, if you're not familiar with these either hypnagogic or hypnopompic episodes, it's stage one sleep, right? So you're, you're kind of in the sleep stage, but you're kind of awake. It allows for full auditory, visual and kinesthetic hallucinations.

• 31:58AJ Gentile?

  This audience knows this is the land of the shadow people.

• 32:02Speaker 04

  Yeah, yes. But by the way, when they say, we know this occurs, they've classified it this way. But in terms of deep research that's gone into this, you know, I think about Hufford's classic book about night hag, right? And the curious note that in some cases, there'd be very weird, objective paranormal phenomena in association with night hag that was independent, like, oh, the dresser drawer moved by itself. Again, I'm not a fan of, oh, look, we took something mystical and turned it into a science term. Now it's all better. I'm like, bullshit. There's...

• 32:37AJ Gentile?

  That's what they do.

• 32:38Speaker 04

  Yeah, but that's a problem. Because, because here's my thing, I don't think that science can't do it, I think they can. I tend to look at that as if you really wanted to do it, you'd get down and dirty and you would do a series of papers and you would figure out how to operationalize this stuff and you would separate the weed from the chaff. But I don't think that gets done. I think we very often will take a term, was it mass psychogenic illness? No, sick building syndrome. You ever seen the papers on sick building syndrome? They're like, oh, all this weird stuff occurred. Well, it's sick building syndrome. What's that mean?

• 33:15AJ Gentile?

  What does that mean?

• 33:16Speaker 04

  Yeah. Good question, because, because the paper isn't really going to tell you either. There's, there's no explanation for why this phenomenon still occurred, or why it was, you know, isolated to a certain area, or why this entire group of individuals, you know, had these weird, you know, physical problems and illnesses and everything else. They're like, nope, we'll just call it sick building syndrome and we'll move on. And I think that's where there's areas where parapsychology has basically bled into the mainstream, it just hasn't been sufficiently covered. Just my two cents, and I'm sure a lot of people would disagree with me on that, but I am rambling. Do we want to go back to my experience or we want to let that go?

• 33:56AJ Gentile?

  If, if I need to bring you back, just trust that I will.

• 33:59Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 34:00AJ Gentile?

  Everything is fine.

• 34:01Speaker 04

  I trust you, AJ.

• 34:02AJ Gentile?

  Just trust me.

• 34:03Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 34:04AJ Gentile?

  We talked a little bit about that you were pre-seminary. What's your relationship with God like now?

• 34:09Speaker 04

  I have a very, when I say good, I have a very, very intense relationship with God. But most, probably a line, a line, I'm less heretical when it comes to Catholicism. I think the standard Catholic would accept me a little bit more than a Protestant would. But I'm, I'm definitely a heretic in the sense of...

• 34:32AJ Gentile?

  In what way?

• 34:33Speaker 04

  Well, I, you know, again, I've, I've dabbled with a lot of spiritual systems and I have a lot of, I've been heavily influenced by Kabbalah, particularly, you know, Victorian Kabbalah, after Golden Dawn got a hold of it and everything else.

• 34:46AJ Gentile?

  So theosophy as well?

• 34:47Speaker 04

  Indirectly. You know, of course, Blavatsky kind of fed, I mean, they don't say it a lot, but Blavatsky definitely fed into, you know, the Golden Donners. Not a fan of Crowley for the record, but that's a whole nother story. And I don't take, you know, Golden Dawn material at face value. But I will say that, and forgive the butchery, the ochchiam, you know, the tree of life, if you really look at it as a structural metaphysical system, you know, 10 manifestations of God, each representing different aspects, conveniently tied to various planetary influences which are universal. And, you know, of course, the tarot applications where you see the various paths of the tree. And then you apply as above, so below, and the four systems of them.

• 35:32Speaker 04

  And I'm like, this is an insanely good classification system.

• 35:36AJ Gentile?

  It is, the Emerald Tablet is right behind me.

• 35:38Speaker 04

  Yeah. And, and, and I've never been able to let go of that. So I think in some ways, I might be more of a Jewish mystic, or a butcher Jewish mystic, or a bad Jewish mystic, because of course, I'm not Jewish. But no, I think a lot of my view of God and Christianity and religion in general is very Kabbalic in nature.

• 35:57AJ Gentile?

  And Gnostic as well.

• 35:59Speaker 04

  Yes, yes. Although I don't know to what extent Gnosticism is complicated.

• 36:05AJ Gentile?

  It is.

• 36:06Speaker 04

  And, and again, I tend to get a little gun shy when people are like, yes, I've seen heaven, it's got 72 layers, here's the 72 names, right? You know, 72 angels of the Shem Hamaphorish and all that.

• 36:18AJ Gentile?

  But, but, but an ancient Jew would say Jesus was Gnostic.

• 36:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, he would. And I wouldn't go against basic Gnostic principles. And if you've ever kind of dived into the history of that, Elaine Pagels is, I think is not a bad source. And of course, and the, I never say this right, Nag Hamandi or Nag Hamadi, I can't remember. You know, I think the idea of Gnosticism early on, before the more orthodox side of Christianity decided to, you know, structure the churches, was kind of close to Protestantism.

• 36:54AJ Gentile?

  Okay.

• 36:55Speaker 04

  Well, I mean, think of it this way, not modern Protestantism.

• 36:59AJ Gentile?

  No.

• 37:00Speaker 04

  If you think about the idea of, we're not going to worry about structure, we're, you know, God is an individual searching sort of thing, right? You must look inside.

• 37:11AJ Gentile?

  God is in here.

• 37:12Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 37:13AJ Gentile?

  He's not in that building.

• 37:14Speaker 04

  Which, if you think about it, if you're trying to make an organized religion, that's a little tricky.

• 37:19AJ Gentile?

  Yeah, we need to leave those books out.

• 37:20Speaker 04

  Yeah. Well, and to be fair, right? How do you create a unified church if you're going to say, hey, here's a few rules, you need to find, you need to find God on your own?

• 37:34AJ Gentile?

  No good.

• 37:36Speaker 04

  Yeah, you're not going to, you know, and in fairness, you know, with young Christianity and, and, you know, unfortunately, a lot of Christians are not familiar with early Christian history. They're not even aware of how the Bible was formed, which frustrates me some days.

• 37:49AJ Gentile?

  Why? Would you have, would you have included all the books, the Apocryphon, Enoch?

• 37:59Speaker 04

  No, man, you're about to make me say several controversial things, so I guess I'm going to say them.

• 38:06AJ Gentile?

  What's the worst that can happen?

• 38:07Speaker 04

  Oh, you'd be surprised. Actually, you probably wouldn't. Let me think about how to say this.

• 38:15AJ Gentile?

  Pseudophrapha, I love it.

• 38:17Speaker 04

  I, I love all those books, but I, maybe I'm a little bit of a snob in the sense of, if you are a person of faith and you care a great deal about your faith, and by the way, I, I don't have any judgment about whatever faith a person has. I really am...

• 38:31AJ Gentile?

  Neither do I.

• 38:32Speaker 04

  I really am a, if God has called you God, quote unquote, universe, God, right? God has called you to something, I believe there's a purpose for that, it's not my business to muck with your relationship.

• 38:41AJ Gentile?

  We're just having a conversation, this channel knows I have great respect for religion, all of them.

• 38:46Speaker 04

  Yeah. So I don't, you know, if, if a person's been called to traditional, traditional Catholicism, in my mind, that's your path, you should follow it. But I don't have any sense of exclusionism with religion, which gets me in trouble.

• 39:02AJ Gentile?

  Why? Why would that get you in trouble?

• 39:04Speaker 04

  Well, because a lot of, a lot of people's fundamental religious beliefs require that exclusionism, right? I mean, you know, even modern, Catholic, actually Catholicism has some loopholes they get around.

• 39:14AJ Gentile?

  They do.

• 39:15Speaker 04

  But, you know, particularly with Protestantism, which is, you know, the younger form of Christianity, this is the way, this is the path, and this is it, and this is best.

• 39:22AJ Gentile?

  And if you don't follow this way, you don't go to heaven.

• 39:25Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 39:26AJ Gentile?

  Right? I don't like that.

• 39:28Speaker 04

  I don't either. But again, if that's where a person is, that's where a person is. I think...

• 39:33AJ Gentile?

  Everyone can get to heaven, that's your way.

• 39:35Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 39:36AJ Gentile?

  I've got my way.

• 39:37Speaker 04

  Yes. Now, I would say there are universal morals, you know, don't be an asshole, right?

• 39:41AJ Gentile?

  Sure.

• 39:42Speaker 04

  And, and, you know, but I also think there's a distinction between what we might call the social morals that we have, and of course, as a social psychologist, understanding that religion is not the same. You know, the rules, the rules we follow now in various religions are not the rules that were followed 60 years ago. Very much a difference between dogma versus the core books upon which a religion is, is established. All that having been said, I love the Apocrypha, I certainly love the Catholic Apocrypha, and I like the Gnostic texts. But we also, I also want to be balanced in say, if Paul and the various, you know, the

• 40:25Speaker 04

  various future bishops, you know, those New Testament books, all of which came before the Gospels.

• 40:31AJ Gentile?

  Yes.

• 40:32Speaker 04

  You know, they did have a goal, which was, we need to keep this alive. And, and I do have to, I do have to give due credit and say, how else were you going to do that if you weren't going to unify under churches and rules?

• 40:43AJ Gentile?

  That's a great point.

• 40:44Speaker 04

  And how were you going to survive? You know, because at the time, early, early Christianity was a cult. A cult, not occult, right?

• 40:51AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 40:52Speaker 04

  You're going to go mainstream if you're going to spread this good word, so to speak.

• 40:55AJ Gentile?

  There's no difference. Between a cult and a religion?

• 40:58Speaker 04

  Well, just numbers.

• 40:59AJ Gentile?

  Just numbers.

• 41:00Speaker 04

  Now, now, in, in secular conveyance, right? Uh, that's, you know, people hear a cult, they're like, yes, and we kill children and goats and do like, you know, that, but no, in, in a very technical academic sense.

• 41:10AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 41:11Speaker 04

  Numbers is what makes you a religion.

• 41:13AJ Gentile?

  Sure.

• 41:13Speaker 04

  So, um, so no, I, I'm kind of open minded about both sides of it. I see why it happened and I see why orthodox religion, right? So to speak, occurred the way it did. Um, but I do think going back to the Gnostics, that some of that introspection and personal enlightenment and, and if I remember Pegels correctly, the fact that various people would take turns, uh, being the priest or the minister or the rabbi. Um, you know, and, and the way Pegels sets it up, this just was not going to work for, for an organized religion. Um, I'm just a fan of the Gnosticism. Uh, not, not so much the modern form where there's, I, I can't remember 36 layers with passwords.

• 41:50AJ Gentile?

  Yep.

• 41:51Speaker 04

  That you have to get through.

• 41:52AJ Gentile?

  Yep.

• 41:52Speaker 04

  Um, I think that might be a little too much.

• 41:54AJ Gentile?

  So, I agree. I'm more like the Book of Philip and Book of John.

• 41:58Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 41:58AJ Gentile?

  That's more my speed. Um, so you're in, you're in social sciences, psychology. And, um, you start to talk about parapsychology and someone said, you will never speak to another human being again.

• 42:13AJ Gentile?

  Who, who, who was that? Who told you that?

• 42:15Speaker 04

  Oh, well, and actually I, I'm not, I don't, did, did I say that?

• 42:20AJ Gentile?

  Someone said that to you.

• 42:22Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 42:22AJ Gentile?

  Don't go into the field because you'll never be taken seriously again.

• 42:26Speaker 04

  Honestly, that was my undergrad advisor.

• 42:28AJ Gentile?

  Hmm.

• 42:29Speaker 04

  Um, and, and, and in fairness, uh, the, the degree of, of, of bias, when you're looking at the eighties, early nineties towards parapsych was significantly more.

• 42:40AJ Gentile?

  Oh, sure.

• 42:41Speaker 04

  Robust.

• 42:42AJ Gentile?

  Oh, sure.

• 42:42Speaker 04

  We, we've gotten, you know, society as a whole has gotten a little more loosey goosey in the last 30 years.

• 42:48AJ Gentile?

  I'd call it open minded.

• 42:49Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 42:50AJ Gentile?

  That's fine.

• 42:51Speaker 04

  And in terms of, of, of, you know, psychology, religion lit, uh, there's been about a 10% decline in orthodox religion. Uh, in, in adherence to it in our society, uh, really, I think persistent now for about 30 or 40 years. So we are seeing a cultural paradigm shift.

• 43:07AJ Gentile?

  That's interesting because church attendance is up.

• 43:09Speaker 04

  It is now.

• 43:10AJ Gentile?

  It is now.

• 43:11Speaker 04

  Um, and, and if, uh, man, cause I am not going to go into politics on here, but, uh, if, if you objectively, if you objectively look at what has occurred in the last 10 or 15 years, we have had a lot of challenges.

• 43:24AJ Gentile?

  We have.

• 43:24Speaker 04

  To what we would call the unified social fabric.

• 43:28AJ Gentile?

  That's not, that's not left or right. That's.

• 43:29Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 43:30AJ Gentile?

  That's all of them.

• 43:30Speaker 04

  Yeah. Um, but as a result, uh, you know, if you're kind of familiar with the dynamics of it, if you don't have a message, many messages will compete.

• 43:40AJ Gentile?

  Yes.

• 43:40Speaker 04

  Back to social identity theory. Now you have your in groups and your out groups. So I would say that the onboarding of religion recently is a counter move against the 2015, right? Kind of left leaning material. Um, and so I don't even know how that's going to pan out.

• 43:56AJ Gentile?

  I don't, I don't either, but I'm glad it's happening.

• 43:58Speaker 04

  Balance is good.

• 43:59AJ Gentile?

  It is good. Um,

• 44:04AJ Gentile?

  I think, were you a professor by day and then giving ghost tours at night and tarot readings?

• 44:11Speaker 04

  Uh, yeah.

• 44:11AJ Gentile?

  Cause you started a, I guess a student club, right?

• 44:14Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 44:15AJ Gentile?

  And I think it had a terrible acronym was, was ASAP?

• 44:18Speaker 04

  Yeah, ASAP, yes, yes.

• 44:20AJ Gentile?

  ASAP, okay.

• 44:21Speaker 04

  Okay, in my, in my defense.

• 44:23AJ Gentile?

  Go ahead.

• 44:23Speaker 04

  In my defense, and I'm going to own this for the entire field. Social scientists are shitty at naming things.

• 44:30AJ Gentile?

  I see that.

• 44:31Speaker 04

  We have multiple names for the same theory. We, it's, it's, we're bad at it. I will own my sin. Um, yeah, it, it turned into Israel, which isn't necessarily the best name either.

• 44:42AJ Gentile?

  Um, I noticed that. It went from ASAP to Israel.

• 44:44Speaker 04

  Yeah. Yeah, yes, uh, in, in 2014, I believe.

• 44:47AJ Gentile?

  Okay.

• 44:47Speaker 04

  Yeah. Um,

• 44:49AJ Gentile?

  So what were you doing? Where were the tours?

• 44:51Speaker 04

  Uh, well, actually we did the tours as part of fundraising for when we actually filed for nonprofit status. So, uh, the whole nonprofit started originally as just students volunteering and me kind of showing them the scientific method and us basically me having a gaggle of research assistants.

• 45:08AJ Gentile?

  What were you teaching at the time?

• 45:09Speaker 04

  Um, sociology and psychology.

• 45:12AJ Gentile?

  So would you have students coming during office hours with ghost stories?

• 45:16Speaker 04

  Um, actually what I would do is I'd just make a pitch every semester, uh, with that caveat of this is work. Make no mistake. If this interests you, it's available and with all the appropriate ethical caveats of this will not affect your grade. This, there's no brownie points to be had here. I do this, if you're interested, you want to learn about science and poke ghosts, so to speak, um, come see me. Um, and we never, I, I never had a problem, uh, recruiting a gaggle of, of people.

• 45:41AJ Gentile?

  Of course not.

• 45:42Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 45:43AJ Gentile?

  Um, You were teaching first years, second?

• 45:45Speaker 04

  First and second.

• 45:45AJ Gentile?

  First and second, yeah.

• 45:46Speaker 04

  But I also did university. I'd do, uh, junior and senior level classes too. Um, cause yeah, the odd thing, I was a social psychologist, but, um, they basically asked me to do, uh, sociology. And I'm like, yeah, sure, why not? Right? Most of the stuff in sociology comes from social psych anyway. I'm like, let's go. Um, so, you know, for, for a long time, for about 10 years, um, it was really just a, a student organization. And then we did, uh, local historical tours, uh, down in Jeffersonville, Indiana, where we collected all the stories and we would actually do some investigations on the site. And then we'd give tours as fundraisers, uh, to get a little bit of money because, uh, anyone who does investigations knows that the cost of actually buying equipment is insane.

• 46:29Speaker 04

  Um, and I had the amount of money you would expect of being a, uh, community college slash adjunct university professor.

• 46:36AJ Gentile?

  Well, take us to one of the stops in the tour. Tell us a ghost story.

• 46:40Speaker 04

  Well, okay. Um, there is a nice little bistro, free advertising, uh, called The Red Yeti.

• 46:46AJ Gentile?

  Oh, I do love it.

• 46:48Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's, it's in, uh, it's in downtown Jeffersonville on Spring Street. Um, and their owners reported, in fact, somebody stole our material and was doing a recent report on them about a year ago in a newspaper. I'm like, how dare you?

• 47:00AJ Gentile?

  Content thieves.

• 47:01Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 47:01AJ Gentile?

  Tell me about it.

• 47:01Speaker 04

  Grr, whatever. Uh, but, um, so, uh, they were, there was an apartment upstairs, if I remember correctly. And they, uh, were reporting shadow people and various weird disturbances. The restaurant itself reported some pretty strong psychokinesis.

• 47:17AJ Gentile?

  Psychokinesis, things were moving.

• 47:19Speaker 04

  Yes, yes. Psycho, uh, glass, glassware being flung off a shelf. And we're not talking about like oops, tinkle. Uh, there was, uh, several reports, if I remember correctly, of flinging, objects being flung.

• 47:29AJ Gentile?

  Okay.

• 47:30Speaker 04

  Um, so at the time we were a, a local organization, right? You know, student, professor, whatever. Um, and I can't remember if we asked them or if they invited us, uh, to investigate. But anyway, there we were. Um, interestingly, we set the, all, you know, we set the equipment up. And in those days I had, you know, a full range of data logging, EMF meters, multiple cameras, hotspot method, right? Because again, my goal was let's capture objective phenomena, right? Uh, there's a whole discussion there, but I wanted to catch weird spooky shit. Um, which interestingly enough, did we see objects move? No. Uh, did a couple of our members have psychosomatic effects? Uh, and we had some members that, you know, like, oh, I feel kind of nauseous. I feel weird.

• 48:15Speaker 04

  Uh, yes. The interesting bit was, and I'm mad because again, this was almost great evidence. We had three people in the kitchen. They swear up and down, they saw roughly an 18 inch to two foot orb glowing blue.

• 48:34AJ Gentile?

  Wow.

• 48:35Speaker 04

  Pop through one wall and pop through the other. Now I can say this, we did have a camera in the kitchen and I did catch the corner of it.

• 48:46AJ Gentile?

  You did?

• 48:47Speaker 04

  We caught the corner of it. We didn't catch the full, so in other words, if this was the screen, right? You could see it, like you saw this bright light, like just around the corner, but it wasn't a full capture. So, I mean, it definitely corroborated their experiences and there was obviously some sort of light anomaly that we captured on video. Um, but yeah, that was, they saw a full bodied quote unquote orb, crackling blue, solid, popped right through it, uh, all of about a half second.

• 49:16AJ Gentile?

  Did something happen on that property?

• 49:19AJ Gentile?

  What did they think it was?

• 49:20Speaker 04

  Trying to remember. Well, okay, Jeffersonville was known both for illegal gambling and a fair amount of, if I, if I remember correctly, and I hope I get this right, mob activity?

• 49:30AJ Gentile?

  Okay.

• 49:30Speaker 04

  There's a fair amount of murders.

• 49:32AJ Gentile?

  Okay.

• 49:32Speaker 04

  And a fair amount of burnings and a fair amount of, uh, people dying under suspicious circumstances. And I can't remember the specifics of that because it's been like 15 years, I think. Um, but it did have a history of some kind. I just can't remember what was specifically the case. Supposedly it's still haunted because like I said, I saw a report on it six months to 12 months ago in some newspaper, um, advertising Jeffersonville, or maybe it was a Facebook ad. Um, but no, we never got any of the objects moving, but we did, uh, did have three witnesses that saw a, a full blown orb, you know, not like a bug, but like a, oh, look, this is emitting its own light. It just flashed through the kitchen. What the hell is that? Um, pretty spooky.

• 50:11AJ Gentile?

  Very spooky. Let's take a quick break and when we come back, we can talk about the gear, the science and how K2 meters may be a waste of your money.

• 50:20Speaker 04

  Yeah, they are.

• 50:21AJ Gentile?

  We'll be right back. Okay, the dumb question. Here's the dumb question.

• 50:26Speaker 04

  Hit me.

• 50:28AJ Gentile?

  Everybody sees on TV the ghost hunters with the box with the lights. Oh, he's rolling his eyes. And it's spiking. What is the box? What is it measuring?

• 50:38Speaker 04

  Um, usually with an EMF meter, like the K2s and stuff, they're measuring mains frequency, EMF, which in America is 60 hertz and in England, I believe 50.

• 50:49AJ Gentile?

  It's 50 in England. So this is just electricity in the walls?

• 50:51Speaker 04

  Well, it's, it's not so, you know, any electrical current will give off. By the way, I am not a physicist. This was me doing side research to figure out how to put together meters back in the day. Uh, so not an expert, just someone that's read on it.

• 51:05AJ Gentile?

  The experts are then in the comments. Don't worry about it.

• 51:07Speaker 04

  Okay, of course they will. Well, actually, um, um, so any electrical field is going to give off a magnetic field. Right? So the vast, you know, so anytime you have mains frequency, 60 hertz, right? Um, EMF, it's coming from, yes, the electricity's electricity in the walls. Now where people make a mistake is that electromagnetic fields decay on an exponential rate. So something that is 100 milligauss up close will be 10 milligauss one feet away.

• 51:37AJ Gentile?

  Inverse square law.

• 51:38Speaker 04

  Yeah, exactly. Um, and that gets, sometimes you'll see people make claims like that. Well, the power lines, I'm like, well, the power lines after about 10 feet go to nothing.

• 51:47AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 51:47Speaker 04

  Um, but in terms of, of EMF spikes, um, in my experience, you know, back, back when I did field stuff, we rarely would get, um, spikes. And, and you do see on the shows, you know, they're like, oh, you know, 1.8 milligauss. I'm like, well, okay, but that's not really abnormal. Um, now that, I mean, there are some.

• 52:08AJ Gentile?

  1.8 milligauss?

• 52:09Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 52:10AJ Gentile?

  Doesn't, isn't the earth somewhere between 200 and 500 milligauss?

• 52:13Speaker 04

  Well, but that's geomagnetic fields.

• 52:15AJ Gentile?

  Yes.

• 52:15Speaker 04

  And those are down at the 2 to 10 hertz range, if I'm remembering correctly.

• 52:20AJ Gentile?

  They are.

• 52:20Speaker 04

  Um, and I think somewhere between 1 and 2 milligauss is the norm.

• 52:25AJ Gentile?

  Oh.

• 52:26Speaker 04

  Maybe I'm wrong.

• 52:27AJ Gentile?

  Okay.

• 52:27Speaker 04

  Um, cause it's been a while since I've dug into that. Um, but no, not a high field. Now, um, and this is, uh, like, uh, Stan Corren's would, would be the person you'd want to talk to on this one in, in detail. And he's, if he ever watches this, he's going to be mad at me. Um, but yeah, you can have various, uh, geological features that will increase or decrease, uh, geomagnetic activity. In fact, he did a whole series of studies suggesting, um, are you familiar with the Persinger effect?

• 52:54AJ Gentile?

  Uh, yeah.

• 52:54Speaker 04

  Yeah. Right. Uh, so.

• 52:56AJ Gentile?

  God helmet?

• 52:56Speaker 04

  Yes, the god helmet. Uh, and, and the claim for a while, and I personally do not agree with this. Uh, doesn't mean I'm right. I just don't personally agree with it. You know, the claim was, look, there's naturally occurring geomagnetic fields at these haunted locations.

• 53:10AJ Gentile?

  Yes.

• 53:11Speaker 04

  Um, but I believe in the papers he did, looking at 40 or 50 locations, maybe two of them actually met criteria. But it gets more problematic because for you to get a god helmet effect, you need, if I remember correctly, 6 to 8 hertz.

• 53:26AJ Gentile?

  Mm hmm.

• 53:27Speaker 04

  Applied to the brain consistently.

• 53:29AJ Gentile?

  6 to 8 hertz at the temporal lobe.

• 53:31Speaker 04

  Yeah, uh, consistently for several minutes.

• 53:33AJ Gentile?

  Mm hmm.

• 53:33Speaker 04

  And that is going to be a tall order in a natural geomagnetic field.

• 53:39AJ Gentile?

  Right. The god helmet's got magnets right next to your brain.

• 53:43Speaker 04

  Uh, we did buy one of those, by the way, and set them up back when we did the Black Moon Manor, uh, study way back in the day. Um, and we had people, uh, cause ghosts are perverts. They were wearing the helmet and they, they felt an earthquake and then they got fondled and it was, this was a very messed up day. So we're like, okay, let's not mess with that here too much. It's freaking people out. Um.

• 54:04AJ Gentile?

  Didn't Persinger say that the, that people were creating the ghost phenomenon?

• 54:10Speaker 04

  Yeah. The, the idea was you're basically having a hallucination, or if you like vernacular, tripping balls, off of a geomagnetic field.

• 54:18AJ Gentile?

  Yes.

• 54:19Speaker 04

  Um, I don't think that explanation is sufficient.

• 54:21AJ Gentile?

  Okay.

• 54:21Speaker 04

  Um, and I've also done several studies now at this point showing, and I can't tell you why, there's just a relationship. Uh, there is a time synced relationship between objective and subjective paranormal phenomena and EMF wiggle right before the event occurs. Um, and.

• 54:38AJ Gentile?

  And it's time sync.

• 54:39Speaker 04

  Well, yeah, I, I would say, if I'm going to be formal about it, a correlation in time with either suppression of EMF or expansion of EMF right before observable paranormal phenomena, like objects moving. Right?

• 54:53AJ Gentile?

  So this is why you want all your video, audio, everything time synced.

• 54:57Speaker 04

  Yeah. And, and that was really the original goal of, of Israe back in the day. We're like, okay, I want, I want to see if all the shows with ghost hunting are true. Let's test the EMF theory, right? Um, and to be fair, the research we did, I mean, in fairness, I did three papers out of it and there's, they replicated across the board.

• 55:17AJ Gentile?

  What frequencies?

• 55:18Speaker 04

  Um, if I'm remembering correctly, we got the effect both with geomagnetic and, uh, mains frequency.

• 55:27AJ Gentile?

  So the phenomenon is affecting frequencies that exist already. So you don't have to filter anything out. They're not living on their own part of the spectrum, or are they?

• 55:38Speaker 04

  When you say they, are you referring to like ghosts, discarnate entities?

• 55:41AJ Gentile?

  Whatever caused the wiggle.

• 55:42Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 55:43AJ Gentile?

  I'm not a believer, to be honest.

• 55:44Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 55:44AJ Gentile?

  Um, I'm a hopeful believer. Like I, like I want to believe.

• 55:47Speaker 04

  Um, I, I actually do fully believe in discarnate agency. I also believe in psi. That doesn't mean I can prove it as a scientist, right? And I want to make that distinction clear. There's what science can demonstrate and then there's what anyone particularly believes about it. Um, the science answer, and then we can get to, to the ghosty answer is uh, in, in the first study at Black Moon Manor, no electricity generating fields at all, half mile away from power lines. This was a nearly abandoned house in the middle of nowhere. Um, we captured three videos of shadow people coming out of a basement with no exits. Right? So there's no entry or exit to this point. And I'm proud of this one. This is, this is one of the best phenomena we ever captured.

• 56:30Speaker 04

  The video sucks unfortunately, because it was 2009.

• 56:34AJ Gentile?

  I was just going to ask you if this is available.

• 56:35Speaker 04

  The, well, it, it is, and I could find it. It, and in the video, it's clear. I have some pictures in the book, but the, the book pictures don't capture it well.

• 56:42AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 56:42Speaker 04

  And I'm sorry, um, but the point is there was three videos where you would see an scenario. Camera here, camera here. Okay. So this camera, uh, and this camera's pointing the opposite direction. So obviously for, for criticism or, or skepticism, nobody could have been behind this, right? Everyone was accounted for in the house. They were all outside at the time. In fact, we were doing sweeps around the house to see if there's anything we needed to be aware of, right? Um, that might be influencing what was going on inside of this location. So the front camera's here, it's pointed to one door. The door only goes to a basement with no entry and no exit.

• 57:22Speaker 04

  And we had three episodes. We had about an eight foot tall shadow come across the door.

• 57:30Speaker 04

  Then we had an eight foot tall shadow come back across the door. And it's very clear in the video, right? There's, it's this tall, like stripe, kind of humanish. And then five of various heights come out. And in each instance, there was either an expansion or suppression, when you look at the data, of the electromagnetic fields.

• 57:52AJ Gentile?

  There was.

• 57:53Speaker 04

  Yes. So it was correlated with this compression. And when I say compression, uh, this is the one caveat we found. If you want, if, if this thrice done research is solid, right? Could have been wrong, could be a null finding if somebody else did it, but three times, not too bad, right? Um, what we found was not a spike, right? Oh God, the milligauss went up. What we found was wiggle. So the only way you're going to find this stuff is if you were data logging.

• 58:21AJ Gentile?

  Is this wiggle like amplitude wiggle or compression of the sine wave?

• 58:24Speaker 04

  Um, amplitude, right? So you would get, like, if this is the average wiggle amount you would get with EMF, over time, you're sampling one, two, three, or 15 times a second, whatever the sample rate is, right? We would either get an expansion, so the, the peaks and the trials get higher, or we get a suppression. And we found that to be the case in all three of the studies that we did. Um, so quality EVP in the 2013 study, uh, those shadow figures, which, uh, oh, and by the way, the shadows were in infrared.

• 58:54AJ Gentile?

  They were in infrared?

• 58:56Speaker 04

  Infrared, because actually it wasn't bright enough for full color video. So it was the black and white infrared that picked up the shadows.

• 59:03AJ Gentile?

  Wow. So, well, that means there's heat.

• 59:09Speaker 04

  This was a place, I kid you not, I haven't seen apparition happen very often. This was a place where I personally witnessed, I can't prove it, you know those um five pound plastic chairs you can buy at Walmart? One was just in the middle of the room out of nowhere. Poof, five pound chair.

• 59:25AJ Gentile?

  Just disappeared?

• 59:27Speaker 04

  Yeah, like I look away, I'm doing my thing, two minutes later, and it's not like somebody brought plastic chairs to the site. Um, next thing you know, there's a damn chair in the middle of the room.

• 59:37AJ Gentile?

  We rolling camera on that?

• 59:38Speaker 04

  No, got no video for that one. Also, there was a milk crate in the basement that people were sitting on. That, again, there was one, only one exit and entry, and it's not like you can, you know the old milk crates that, right? Not like you can shove that under your shirt.

• 59:51AJ Gentile?

  No.

• 59:52Speaker 04

  That thing disappeared.

• 59:53AJ Gentile?

  That, it disappeared?

• 59:54Speaker 04

  It disappeared.

• 59:55AJ Gentile?

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• 1:01:09Speaker 04

  Yes, and it was all bull crap.

• 1:01:12AJ Gentile?

  What do you mean?

• 1:01:13Speaker 04

  It was, um, when we went, there was a place called, uh...

• 1:01:17AJ Gentile?

  This isn't Black Moon, right?

• 1:01:18Speaker 04

  It is Black Moon.

• 1:01:19AJ Gentile?

  So Black Moon, Black Moon is fully debunked?

• 1:01:21Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:01:22AJ Gentile?

  But stuff still happened?

• 1:01:24Speaker 04

  Yes. Yes. Um, yeah, and yeah, because the claim back in the day was like, oh, the tuberculosis, kids in the back, and people are dead, people in suicide. We, we actually, and I'll be fair, I have never been, um, it's good to do the history, um, but I've never been big on the history, because again, my focus at the time was like, no, I want to capture spooky shit, right? I want to capture the weird stuff. Uh, but we did in that one, do, uh, do some historical research and debunked all of it. It wasn't, like, there was no historical evidence of dead bodies or anything like that. I'm not even sure the suicides were true.

• 1:02:00AJ Gentile?

  I don't think they were.

• 1:02:03Speaker 04

  And my understanding was that, um, the owners of the property got so mad about the legends that that's what ended up getting it bulldozed and torn down and everything else. Um, yeah, that's, yeah, that's what I got accounted, that's what I got told anyway. Um, but no, that place, also, uh, change, change in candy would show up on the floor.

• 1:02:22AJ Gentile?

  Change?

• 1:02:23Speaker 04

  Uh, like coins.

• 1:02:26AJ Gentile?

  No, I know what you mean. Check the dates on those?

• 1:02:29Speaker 04

  I didn't, no. Well, because again, honestly, me being skeptical, I'm like, who's got a hole in their pocket? I, I just didn't take it, anything after the milk crate, the chair, over comes, it's like, eh, maybe, change.

• 1:02:40AJ Gentile?

  Coins appearing, it happens in all kinds of, it happens on Skinwalker Ranch all the time, you're finding coins.

• 1:02:45Speaker 04

  And a fair history of it with Poltergeist phenomena.

• 1:02:47AJ Gentile?

  Yes.

• 1:02:48Speaker 04

  Uh, over the years, too. Uh, so no, I would call that place legitimately active while, while I was around. Like, you're gonna have a hard time debunking some of that stuff.

• 1:02:55AJ Gentile?

  Did you feel anything?

• 1:02:56Speaker 04

  Um, yeah, there was a lot of a sensation of a presence there.

• 1:03:00AJ Gentile?

  There was?

• 1:03:01Speaker 04

  Yeah. Um, and, and again, now, I'm gonna say...

• 1:03:04AJ Gentile?

  I guess Persinger would have agreed.

• 1:03:06Speaker 04

  Well, I mean, although, if I remember the readings, I'm not sure really it would have qualified for a Persinger effect, in terms of the Hertz rate that was going on over there.

• 1:03:15AJ Gentile?

  Not at 60, but at, but at 5?

• 1:03:18Speaker 04

  Uh, maybe. I mean, you know, but again, and I'm not saying it can't occur, I think under controlled laboratory conditions, you absolutely get that Persinger helmet effect. I'm just, um, and I could be, you know, somebody may write me and correct me, but I find it suspicious that nature would provide such a sustained Hertz rate over an extended period of time to produce that effect. Um, and it's certainly not going to account for psychokinesis, and it's not going to, you know? So for subjective events, absolutely.

• 1:03:47AJ Gentile?

  No, that's been, that's been proven to, in testing third man syndrome, it stimulates the temporal lobe.

• 1:03:52Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:03:53AJ Gentile?

  The frontal lobe, and you suddenly feel a presence.

• 1:03:54Speaker 04

  And I think something like one out of five, or maybe 10% of people actually had full-blown visions.

• 1:04:00AJ Gentile?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:04:01Speaker 04

  If I remember. Um, and although this makes me a bad researcher, um, and, because I can't remember the, the name, uh, the name of the, the researcher, but there's a fair amount of studies into mirror gazing, where, um, vast majority of participants, after about a minute, will see distortions of the face.

• 1:04:17AJ Gentile?

  Yep.

• 1:04:18Speaker 04

  Um, and then a, a small percentage of those will actually go on to see additional, um, I suspect that's correlated with translumality, but that's another sidebar.

• 1:04:26AJ Gentile?

  Um, I've, I've read those studies, and quite a few subjects bailed out, they said, I don't want to do this anymore.

• 1:04:31Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. Well, we had that in the Seon study, part of, um, the EMF relationship we're talking about. Um, I actually got permission to set up a Seon study. Uh, so we had, uh, 10 or 11 participants, each do 10 sessions, five, five and four, five and six, uh, 10 sessions, and we set up the cameras and the EMF meters. Um, and we didn't actually capture any phenomena, but my goodness, they verbally reported an insane amount of phenomena, and low and behold, we got that suppression-expansion effect with EMF in time to their verbal reports.

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• 1:06:05AJ Gentile?

  What were they talking about?

• 1:06:07Speaker 04

  Well, we went, we went whole hog on this one, this one was almost as bad as my dissertation. Um, I had them purposefully do an invocation, a meditation, and even a, kind of a, a small, slightly occultic summoning.

• 1:06:21AJ Gentile?

  Wow, okay.

• 1:06:22Speaker 04

  And then, and then the rule was, anytime you're experiencing something, we want you to verbally report it. Because we were also interested in contagion effects. To what extent, if you're saying you have a chill, will other people be like, yeah, come to think of it, I'm having a chill. By the way, massive contagion.

• 1:06:38AJ Gentile?

  Yep.

• 1:06:39Speaker 04

  Right? Um, so a lot of that can be explained by conventional psychology, in that sense. Unless you want to interject a little bit of spiritual wiggle inside the contagion, which...

• 1:06:48AJ Gentile?

  You can.

• 1:06:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, you can. I actually think that's, might be the case.

• 1:06:51AJ Gentile?

  But I think with the Ouija board, it's just contagion.

• 1:06:52Speaker 04

  Um, maybe.

• 1:06:54AJ Gentile?

  Okay.

• 1:06:55Speaker 04

  Maybe. Well, and I say maybe because nobody's really dug that deeply into it.

• 1:07:01AJ Gentile?

  No.

• 1:07:02Speaker 04

  You know, two or three cool studies does not a thorough investigation make.

• 1:07:06AJ Gentile?

  No.

• 1:07:07Speaker 04

  And I'd say the same about my EMF data. Um, I would stick to that and really be like, yes, that is real, if I had three or four other researchers decide to do their own study and replicate the results. But I have to own that this was me doing repeated studies. Uh, so it's not independent verification. So I would say, yep, I think something's there, um, I'm not gonna die on that hill over it. Um, I mean, it is replicated three times, that's, you know, so I'd say, hey, look, it happened, but, um, I'd, I'd love for somebody else to pick it up and give it a try.

• 1:07:38AJ Gentile?

  Sure.

• 1:07:39Speaker 04

  Um, but no, with the Seons thing, no, they would report all sorts of phenomena. Uh, we even had one who swore that they saw a spirit, and it freaked them out so bad, uh, that they, they were out. They, they, they left the study. Um, but no, we'd have people get exhausted, headaches, put their head on the table, um, a whole range of, of, uh, subjective psychosomatic phenomena, if, if you will.

• 1:08:01AJ Gentile?

  What about EVP? Did you ever get into that?

• 1:08:04Speaker 04

  Not, not from the Seon study. We didn't get a thing that would be objective.

• 1:08:07AJ Gentile?

  Ever get anything on EVP?

• 1:08:08Speaker 04

  Yeah, um, but I'm, I'm pretty snooty about EVP.

• 1:08:12AJ Gentile?

  Go ahead.

• 1:08:13Speaker 04

  In the sense of, I'm like, I want to hear a voice, damn it. I don't want, shh, shh, shh, shh. I'm like, okay, paridolia, uh, which also hasn't been sufficiently studied. Also ticks me off. Um, but, uh, yeah, no, every now, the Black Moon Manor case, we had a couple of very clear voices.

• 1:08:28AJ Gentile?

  You had voices?

• 1:08:29Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:08:30AJ Gentile?

  Saying what?

• 1:08:31Speaker 04

  Um, I remember, this one, we didn't include in the study, because it got shown later, uh, but evidently, there was a recorder that got some, uh, grandpa-like voice, being like, dang kids walking around here, thump, thump, thump.

• 1:08:42AJ Gentile?

  Wow.

• 1:08:43Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, I-

• 1:08:44AJ Gentile?

  Like an awareness of you guys.

• 1:08:45Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm. Yep. Um, I've been lucky enough to run into some stuff that's just outright creepy.

• 1:08:51AJ Gentile?

  Go ahead.

• 1:08:51Speaker 04

  Uh, well, I mean, you know, uh, between, what, between the fire, between the shadow people. Um, let me think. Um-

• 1:08:58AJ Gentile?

  The EVP is what's creeps me out the most.

• 1:09:01Speaker 04

  I, I don't, I have some designs that if somebody wanted to help me with it, because this is, I'm, I'm starting to get to the age where I'm like, I am not carrying this 400-hour project on my own. I'm not doing it. I'm like, I'm too tired.

• 1:09:14AJ Gentile?

  Yep.

• 1:09:15Speaker 04

  Um, one of the things I would love to see, and actually I might be moving towards this the next couple of years, is starting to study the common myths of investigating. Um, and, and there are several designs I could think of off the top of my head where we could start to crack at EVP in a very meaningful way. Paradolia is tricky, right?

• 1:09:38AJ Gentile?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:38Speaker 04

  I mean, not to get too geeky, but you know, you can set a baseline for the average amount of noise.

• 1:09:43AJ Gentile?

  Hmm.

• 1:09:44Speaker 04

  You would get on an audio recorder.

• 1:09:45AJ Gentile?

  Sure.

• 1:09:46Speaker 04

  Um, then you could, right, start statistically sampling, uh, if you get a significantly different rate when people are asking questions versus when they're not, when people are present versus when they're not. Um, the whole radio, the radio interference theory of EVP, of which there's not a single fricking study to test. And that annoys me because it's like, it's called a padded soundproof box.

• 1:10:09AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 1:10:09Speaker 04

  Put one near a radio tower. Put one in your house. Are there noises? You know, that's not hard.

• 1:10:16AJ Gentile?

  No.

• 1:10:17Speaker 04

  That's a citizen science project. If, if enough people wrote me and said, hey, I'd be willing to do it, I'd be like, let's go. Cause it's not hard. But again, that's where we get skep- pseudo-skeptics who don't really have a background in science, making very grandiose claims about things that can't happen when they haven't ever cracked open a research article ever. Um, but no, stuff like EVP, uh, you could do certain protocols with ghost boxes that would at least get at the idea of, are you getting an abnormal amount of response? Are you getting responses that are, you know, deviations from what you might hear? That's modelable. It's-

• 1:10:52AJ Gentile?

  Have you heard of ghost box that worked? And for everyone listening, the ghost boxes on YouTube is all nonsense. Don't listen to those.

• 1:10:57Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:10:58AJ Gentile?

  Those are nonsense.

• 1:10:59Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:10:59AJ Gentile?

  Have you ever heard a real one? This is like the Tesla's or the Edison Spirit radio.

• 1:11:03Speaker 04

  Now, when you say a real one is in like one that just rotates through frequencies?

• 1:11:06AJ Gentile?

  Or that you're, that you heard something. And my next question would be on what frequency?

• 1:11:12Speaker 04

  Um, I haven't dealt with them extensively. I have played with some generic ones and there's been one or two times where the responses seemed revel- relevant. Um, I had, one time I did have an obulus that, uh, we were investigating, believe it or not, a, um, police officer training building. And that obulus went off four or five times in about three minutes and it said, gun, danger, officer. And I'm like, holy crap.

• 1:11:45AJ Gentile?

  What is an obulus?

• 1:11:46Speaker 04

  And, well, good question. What, how does the obulus actually? And that's, that's one of the problems with research. An obulus is basically a device that's got a pre-programmed set of, I think, 2,000 words.

• 1:11:56AJ Gentile?

  Yep.

• 1:11:57Speaker 04

  And now they have all these apps.

• 1:11:58AJ Gentile?

  Yes.

• 1:11:58Speaker 04

  They're doing all sorts of complicated stuff. And I've also watched some of those videos where they evidently have a very complicated, um, obulus slash ghost box slash combo that's, that's selecting. Of course, the problem for science is, what's all that math and technology behind what you're getting?

• 1:12:14AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 1:12:14Speaker 04

  Because if I don't know that, there's no way I can test whether you have something normal or abnormal in the first place.

• 1:12:20AJ Gentile?

  This is why I don't like them, is how did you teach the ghost how to use your machine?

• 1:12:25Speaker 04

  Well, but I might counter and say, you know, uh, Nelson's, uh, Global Consciousness Project, right?

• 1:12:31AJ Gentile?

  That's, that's a fair response.

• 1:12:32Speaker 04

  So, and, and all the micro PK studies nowadays are done with electronics. Uh, we just finished, um, we just finished a set of studies where we were looking at enchantment and, um, and ESP, and that was all done online. Now, that one was a null finding, by the way. We did a, our sample, our original pilot, we got suggest, uh, suggestive results, but we didn't get it, uh, we didn't get it with the, with the main sample study. Um, but there's been a bunch of other micro PK studies, right? So the idea of, of influencing small, you know, um, uh, electronic random number generators are true random, but those are all electronics. Um, you know, technomancy might be a thing. Um-

• 1:13:13AJ Gentile?

  I mean, it seems like it's all manipulating the, the electromagnetic spectrum somehow.

• 1:13:18Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:13:19AJ Gentile?

  Why?

• 1:13:19Speaker 04

  And, and, huh, good question. Let's, let's talk to some physicists.

• 1:13:22AJ Gentile?

  I mean, that's why I wanted to have you in here is because you have a lot of I don't know, but you have a lot of research that shows that something's happening on, on the spectrum.

• 1:13:31Speaker 04

  It, it, it is. I, I think it is. And, um, and I will say for whatever GPT is worth, um, and, and by the way, when I use GPT, I specifically say, use peer-reviewed studies only.

• 1:13:41AJ Gentile?

  Mm-hmm. You need to do that.

• 1:13:43Speaker 04

  Yeah. And then double check.

• 1:13:44AJ Gentile?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:44Speaker 04

  Um, and when you do that, actually, you tend to get much better responses. Um, but I did go down a rabbit hole one day and say, okay, you know about these three studies. What does dark matter and dark energy have to say about this? Um, and evidently, and again, GPT, so count it for what it's worth, uh, and I'm not a physicist, so count this for what it's worth. Um, there have been some physics studies that are showing, um, basically electron-like charge with possible dark matter. Um, so, you know, you want to go out there for an unsubstantiated theory, maybe if, and if you want to accept the, the research that I did, maybe EMF is some sort of secondary effect of, uh, dark matter interactions.

• 1:14:28AJ Gentile?

  I hadn't considered that. That's, that's very interesting. They have to prove dark matter first, but-

• 1:14:32Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:14:32AJ Gentile?

  That's very interesting.

• 1:14:33Speaker 04

  Exactly. Right. Well, we have numbers that don't fit in this formula. Hey, I know. Let's call it, yeah.

• 1:14:37AJ Gentile?

  Let's put it over here.

• 1:14:38Speaker 04

  Uh, again, labeling. Um, and again, you know, for, for the listener, that is a completely unsubstantiated theory. So don't, you know, I'm, I'm not, I'm not-

• 1:14:46AJ Gentile?

  We're just having a conversation. I'm just interested in this stuff.

• 1:14:49Speaker 04

  I'm just keeping it, keeping it on the, keeping it real.

• 1:14:51AJ Gentile?

  Um, you have an IMDB page?

• 1:14:54Speaker 04

  I have an IMDB page.

• 1:14:57AJ Gentile?

  You do? Um, I think it's Portuguese film, Portuguese documentary.

• 1:15:01Speaker 04

  Oh, yes, the bile. Yes.

• 1:15:03AJ Gentile?

  Macro, macro-science?

• 1:15:05Speaker 04

  Yeah, I-

• 1:15:06AJ Gentile?

  Tell us about beach balls.

• 1:15:07Speaker 04

  Uh, yeah. Well, that relates to the EMF study.

• 1:15:10AJ Gentile?

  Yes, it does.

• 1:15:11Speaker 04

  Um, have you, have you ever heard in, in your time of the whispers in Mitchell, Indiana?

• 1:15:16AJ Gentile?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:15:16Speaker 04

  So, okay, now it's got a controversial history, but I have been there tw- at least 10 times.

• 1:15:22AJ Gentile?

  Well, tell the story.

• 1:15:23Speaker 04

  Um, so the, the haunting background story of it is, uh, supposedly there was a doctor that performed abortions, right?

• 1:15:33AJ Gentile?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:15:33Speaker 04

  Um, and, and of questionable nature. And there was a girl there named Rachel who died in a fire. Um, and the legends go that, uh, supposedly the police have gotten some phone calls.

• 1:15:44AJ Gentile?

  Yep.

• 1:15:44Speaker 04

  From her. Um, I've never been able to verify that, but it's awesome story.

• 1:15:48AJ Gentile?

  I, I read the same thing, that there were police reports about that. That they saw her.

• 1:15:53Speaker 04

  Yeah. Uh, and actually, uh, again, K. Owen from back in the day, uh, swears up and down she saw her.

• 1:15:59AJ Gentile?

  Yep.

• 1:15:59Speaker 04

  And even had an audible conversation once. I have been there. I've never heard Rachel. Um, and they also nowadays believe in something called Big Black, which depending on who you're talking to, is either an alien or some sort of, I-

• 1:16:14AJ Gentile?

  I don't know that one.

• 1:16:15Speaker 04

  Yeah. I, I, I'm not sure I do either.

• 1:16:17AJ Gentile?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:17Speaker 04

  There's, uh, but supposedly a, a big dark mass energy with claws. Um, here's what I will say about the place. Whether the history's true or not, um, I have been to that, I have, uh, been through that place top to bottom. I've looked at the vents for, you know, wires. I've looked for airflow. I've looked for, you know, microphones. Um, and I, I think there were a couple of, um, people that claimed they caught some hoaxing at some point. Um, I've never caught it. And I have been there multiple times and I have seen a ridiculous amount of phenomenon out of that place.

• 1:16:54AJ Gentile?

  Like what?

• 1:16:54Speaker 04

  Uh, it, it came a go-to. Um-

• 1:16:56AJ Gentile?

  It became your go-to?

• 1:16:58Speaker 04

  Yeah. Actually, it's, and in fact, the 2019 paper where we have the beach balls was a direct result of Rachel's room.

• 1:17:03AJ Gentile?

  But that was in Rachel's room?

• 1:17:06Speaker 04

  That was in Rachel's room. Yes.

• 1:17:07AJ Gentile?

  Yeah. You have to tell us that story. It's wild.

• 1:17:09Speaker 04

  So it's, um, and in fact, when I used to go there, uh, EMF meters scooting on their own across cases.

• 1:17:15AJ Gentile?

  Um, were you seeing a wiggle during, while they moved?

• 1:17:20Speaker 04

  That was before I was doing the wiggle. That's before I designed that whole system. Uh, but the beach ball, uh, thing was, I think 11 beach ball movements in an hour with two EMF GMF data logging meters, two cameras, one in Rachel's room, one in the adjacent room, which I can't remember what it was called. Um-

• 1:17:39AJ Gentile?

  So you've got beach balls, what, on the bed?

• 1:17:41Speaker 04

  Yeah. There were two, and, and those are regular trigger objects they keep there.

• 1:17:45AJ Gentile?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:17:46Speaker 04

  Um, I've been there and watched those for nine hours not move a bit.

• 1:17:49AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 1:17:49Speaker 04

  Um, we pick them up, we poke them, wait, look for them. We hit, you know, when this started happening, uh, and in fact, I have the whole video of it, right? People knocking on the headboard, people jumping on the bed, the balls don't fall off, right? Uh, everything was blowing on it. You name it. We tried to do it. Um, and still, over about 60 minutes, there were 11 instances of one or the other falling off the headboard or slightly projecting off the headboard about, uh, or I'm sorry, baseboard, about, uh, about a foot and a half. Um, and of course, looking at the EMF data, you have the suppression-expansion effect. Interestingly, the other room, no change in EMF, 10 feet away.

• 1:18:32AJ Gentile?

  Really?

• 1:18:33Speaker 04

  Yeah. So now, if you know anything about fields and vectors, right, um, EMF traditionally, right, any energy traditionally either is a field-

• 1:18:41AJ Gentile?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:41Speaker 04

  That comes from a source, or it's a projected beam. It's a vector, right?

• 1:18:45AJ Gentile?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:18:46Speaker 04

  Um, that data in the other room suggests that, one explanation, spontaneously generating fields with no means to produce them. Cause there's no additional electronic devices or anything else in that room. Yet we still saw the changes in EMF localized to that room.

• 1:19:04AJ Gentile?

  And this is the adjacent room? There, there should have been some residual falloff from-

• 1:19:09Speaker 04

  Yeah. You would have expected the other room. If it was a vector, right?

• 1:19:12AJ Gentile?

  If it was a vector.

• 1:19:13Speaker 04

  Or if it was a large field.

• 1:19:14AJ Gentile?

  Or if it was a field, you should see at least the inverse square, but you didn't get that.

• 1:19:18Speaker 04

  Nope.

• 1:19:19AJ Gentile?

  What the hell is going on in that room?

• 1:19:20Speaker 04

  Good question. Right? And that's where you, I mean, you know, anomalistic psychology. Well, it's not even psychology, anomalistic physics, I guess. Um, no, I have no conventional explanation for that. And that's how we wrote it up. We're like, we don't have an explanation for this. It looks like, you know, putative psychokinesis. And there was an EMF association. Um, and we made a point in that paper to be like, we could be wrong, but we've ruled out X, Y, and Z. We did all of these things. And, and here you go. Um, but related to that point, um, I've had groups in there, uh, and I, I used to be a little, a little rough. And, and for anybody who's listening to this that used to be on the team, I'm sorry. Um-

• 1:19:59AJ Gentile?

  You, you were on your team?

• 1:20:00Speaker 04

  But we, we would get, uh, we would have, uh, new individuals, uh, that would come in. And, and my attitude was a little bit military. Get on in there. Go on up in that room, sit by yourself, right?

• 1:20:12Speaker 04

  And we actually had a person have a pretty bad experience up there. They started shaking and crying. And so we immediately ran up to Rachel's room because that's where it happened. And, you know, as a team, we got her out because we're not cold hearted, right? And, you know, and everybody's like, oh, right? Because there's tears and there's like shaking.

• 1:20:29AJ Gentile?

  Was she just sitting in the, in the room?

• 1:20:31Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:20:31AJ Gentile?

  In the dark?

• 1:20:32Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. Hey, hey, it's a boot camp.

• 1:20:34AJ Gentile?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:37Speaker 04

  Well, you got to get your sea legs if you're going to do this. I mean, because whether you believe or not, these spaces are spooky and you got to get used to spooky.

• 1:20:45AJ Gentile?

  Have you ever been in a dark room and you had to get out?

• 1:20:49Speaker 04

  Not personally, but I've just seen a lot of creepy shit. So.

• 1:20:53AJ Gentile?

  Personally, just throw the kid in there.

• 1:20:55Speaker 04

  Yeah, I have a buildup, but that's kind of the point. It's like, it's like a hazing. It's like, we got you back. We got you on camera. You're good.

• 1:21:02AJ Gentile?

  She could never see another beach ball again.

• 1:21:04Speaker 04

  No, no, we made her get back in. She stuck around for years. She wasn't permanently traumatized. I was an ethical psychologist.

• 1:21:12Speaker 04

  But the point is, we got everybody in, and this is the weirdest that I can't explain this. We're pulling her out. And we're walking, maybe, you know, there's like four of us. We're walking back down the steps, you know, we're going to get a break, let her have some coffee or whatever. And I kid you not, I heard a wookie.

• 1:21:29Speaker 04

  Everybody, there's this weird, and I'm about to make this noise for giving you a look, right? And everybody, and I remember looking around and we all go, what the was that? And some sort of audible noise out of that room, like an audible voice. Now that I had recorded.

• 1:21:46AJ Gentile?

  You did?

• 1:21:47Speaker 04

  Yes, I have it recorded. I got to find it. It's, God, I got so much stuff buried on hard drives.

• 1:21:52AJ Gentile?

  You have to get that to us.

• 1:21:53Speaker 04

  It didn't sound like a wookie. I heard it and it sounded like a wookie. It did sound very audibly like some sort of odd voice coming out of the room, and it was very clear. Like it was, there was no mistaking it. It wasn't a thump or a bump. It was an absolute voice coming out of that room.

• 1:22:08AJ Gentile?

  I've seen some EVPs, I don't know how real they are. It's almost like a data burst where you just hear this, this noise. But if you slow it down.

• 1:22:16Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:22:16AJ Gentile?

  There's voice in there.

• 1:22:18Speaker 04

  And I don't know how legitimate that is or isn't.

• 1:22:21AJ Gentile?

  It's fun, though.

• 1:22:21Speaker 04

  Yeah. I mean, because as a scientist, it's fair to say, it's like, how many layers of compression and variables and, you know, oh. So it's, it's hard to get at that. But I do know in the case of that, that whispers instance, that we all heard that voice and that voice showed up on, on the audio recorder in there.

• 1:22:38Speaker 04

  Psychosomatically or subjectively, I've seen a person knocked flat on their butt. Uh, in the whispers. I mean, slammed to the ground.

• 1:22:47AJ Gentile?

  Did they fall or did they feel pushed?

• 1:22:50Speaker 04

  They got slammed.

• 1:22:51AJ Gentile?

  Wow.

• 1:22:52Speaker 04

  And in fact, it was interesting because back in the day, uh, it was, it was again, I didn't expect to bring up KO in this much, but Kay and I were in the.

• 1:22:59AJ Gentile?

  Oh, I've got questions about Kay coming up.

• 1:23:01Speaker 04

  In, in the whisper. Oh, good lord.

• 1:23:05Speaker 04

  Could get hired as a private detective.

• 1:23:09Speaker 04

  But no, we were, um, we were basically taunting, uh, the supposed doctor for a good hour.

• 1:23:14AJ Gentile?

  How do you taunt the doctor?

• 1:23:15Speaker 04

  We're, oh, we, we were like.

• 1:23:17AJ Gentile?

  This is back to your study again, man. I told you, it's all about that first thesis.

• 1:23:21Speaker 04

  Uh, well, we were in that room in the whispers where supposedly he was doing his stuff. And again, I don't even, yeah, I know he existed. I, I don't know if that was really him or not. At the time, I'm like, sure. So we were just talking trash. Uh, we were provoking. We were like, did you kill babies? You know, like we were going at it for like an hour.

• 1:23:38Speaker 04

  Just basically daring it to, because in those days I was, I was just like, do it. Do it. I'll be okay. Do it. I'm ready to bleed. And nothing happened. And then we had another person walk in five minutes later. He touches the headboard and I got this on camera and he's just like.

• 1:23:54AJ Gentile?

  Oh, my goodness.

• 1:23:55Speaker 04

  He gets up, he looks around like, but that's not entirely uncommon for the whispers. Cuts and scratches are all over the place. And some of them go well beyond what you might call, you know, a, a conversion disorder or a psychosomatic reaction. I mean, you can diagnose it that way, but.

• 1:24:10Speaker 04

  Trixie, complicated would might be a good word for that.

• 1:24:13AJ Gentile?

  I'd love to see the video on that because you, you'd be able to tell if it was a push or a fall.

• 1:24:17Speaker 04

  Well, and, and, you know, that's something we wrote about in the book because I actually bring that up specifically, uh, when that happened. Which is, you know, if the resolution was high enough, could you go and maybe look for a handprint? But even if you did, you know, that's not going to convince a diehard skeptic.

• 1:24:32AJ Gentile?

  No.

• 1:24:32Speaker 04

  You know, that subjective phenomena at the end of the day is, is really beyond our technology or science to measure in a significant way. Um, in, in the old days when we did the three class system, I always called those class twos weird creepy, but I can't prove it.

• 1:24:46AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 1:24:47Speaker 04

  It just, it goes in a maybe category, right? It will freak you out, might have a nightmare over it. But in terms of being able to, to really give it a good proof label.

• 1:24:58Speaker 04

  Had another colleague who's very much a friend of this day, we're very, very close. She swears she got punched in the gut. And then she vomited.

• 1:25:08Speaker 04

  So, you know.

• 1:25:09AJ Gentile?

  This was on an investigation?

• 1:25:11Speaker 04

  Yep. Also in the whispers.

• 1:25:13AJ Gentile?

  In the whispers as well.

• 1:25:14Speaker 04

  Yeah, all that's the whispers.

• 1:25:17Speaker 04

  And then, uh, you know, we can talk about the Sedansville rectory, which is a whole nother cup of tea, but.

• 1:25:23AJ Gentile?

  Go for it.

• 1:25:24Speaker 04

  I don't want to.

• 1:25:26AJ Gentile?

  I have a science question, but we're definitely getting back to it, but I have a science question. I, I understand how. The spectrum can be manipulated by whatever this is. I get it. I don't understand how. Telekinesis or psychokinesis works. How, what is this? Let's say. Something pushed the beach ball.

• 1:25:45Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:25:46AJ Gentile?

  What is the science that could make that possible?

• 1:25:48Speaker 04

  Good question.

• 1:25:49AJ Gentile?

  Let's, well, let's speculate.

• 1:25:50Speaker 04

  And, and to be fair, you're not going to find a parapsychologist or a physicist, or maybe even a metaphysicist, or that there's not a mechanism for sci. There's not a mechanism for PK then. And that is one of the criticisms that is a fair criticism. We're observing secondary data. Or I should say tertiary outcomes, right? We can see the effect. We can't see the mechanism that causes it. To be fair, dark matter.

• 1:26:17AJ Gentile?

  Gravitons.

• 1:26:18Speaker 04

  Energy, gravitons, right? So we're not the only field to do that, but oddly enough, we get all the crap for it. Nobody else calls the other people into account.

• 1:26:27AJ Gentile?

  I hadn't considered dark matter, but that or gravitons would do it. But now we're talking hyperdimensionality.

• 1:26:32Speaker 04

  Yeah. But I mean, even gravitational lensing, which is the case they make for, I believe, uh, dark matter, right? That is a secondary effect.

• 1:26:39AJ Gentile?

  Yes.

• 1:26:39Speaker 04

  You're not measuring the particle or the wave itself. And, you know, frankly, gravity.

• 1:26:45AJ Gentile?

  But that would mean there's black holes connected to the ghosts.

• 1:26:48Speaker 04

  Maybe.

• 1:26:50Speaker 04

  It's, you know, this is, here's a weird mind bender about all this stuff. We talk about how physics has these laws that are absolute, but, um, are, are you familiar about, are, are you familiar with sample to population? The idea of, right? So if I want to know about all daffodils on the planet, I can look at one daffodil.

• 1:27:10AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 1:27:10Speaker 04

  And make a conclusion.

• 1:27:11AJ Gentile?

  Yep.

• 1:27:11Speaker 04

  Right? And what people don't understand is this is the method for all of science. Because literally it's impossible to measure everything. Right? I can't measure every man and woman in the world if I want to look for subtle IQ differences. I have to take a sample and infer from that population.

• 1:27:25AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 1:27:25Speaker 04

  Or that, that from that sample and infer to the population. Well, here, and again, I'm not denying physics. I'm not divine quantum physics in any way, shape or form. But the truth is, we're like, well, gravity works like this.

• 1:27:37AJ Gentile?

  Well, that's, no one knows how it works.

• 1:27:39Speaker 04

  Well, yeah, but you could say from the measurements, this is the law. Well, look at the entire EM spectrum and let's realistically say. Do we measure everything that goes on in the EM spectrum everywhere in the world?

• 1:27:51AJ Gentile?

  No.

• 1:27:52Speaker 04

  And it's impossible to do it.

• 1:27:53AJ Gentile?

  Impossible.

• 1:27:53Speaker 04

  So, so one of the, when we talk about, oh, it's paranormal, I'm like, or.

• 1:27:59Speaker 00

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• 1:28:46Speaker 04

  There could be all sorts of stuff going around and I'm not trying to make excuses for it. It's just, it's, it's a, this is a true thing. We simply don't measure all the variability. Of various energy spectrums. Could there be repeatable intelligent patterns somewhere in the spectrum, anywhere? There could be, I'm not saying there are, but there could be because we sure as hell aren't measuring it. So we have to understand that with science.

• 1:29:11Speaker 04

  They're not absolutes. This is why the scientific method and inferential statistics and all the mathematics very clearly say. Absolutely non-negotiable. You don't ever prove anything. You get more and more evidence that makes it likely.

• 1:29:25AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 1:29:26Speaker 04

  But literally because of the phenomenology, you're like our limited perception, our limited power, our limited ability to perceive, our technology limits. All of these are very real, non-controversial things. And that means there's only so much we can study and sample, and then we generalize those findings to everything else going on.

• 1:29:45AJ Gentile?

  Everything comes back to Gödel's theorem of incompleteness.

• 1:29:48Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:29:48AJ Gentile?

  Like you can, you'll never fully know.

• 1:29:50Speaker 04

  Yeah. And, and, and I think the, the key point here is this isn't me giving you a tangent philosophy. I'm like, no, no, here are the facts about how human beings work. Here is the technology. Here is factually what we can measure and here's factually what we don't. So, you know, anytime people are making these claims like, what are we? No, it's like, well, we don't know. It just works really well. Doesn't mean it always works really well. And it doesn't mean it works well in Timbuktu because if you really want to answer that, you're going to have to go take a lot of sampling and data in Timbuktu.

• 1:30:20AJ Gentile?

  I believe in sci, I just don't know how it works, you know? One of the great remote viewers like Joe McMonigal is wrong most of the time.

• 1:30:27Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:30:28AJ Gentile?

  But he's right sometimes.

• 1:30:29Speaker 04

  Yeah. Yeah. And, and you know, and I, I think the sum of sci data would say, uh, useful, but not necessarily something you want to always put a bet on.

• 1:30:38AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 1:30:40Speaker 04

  And that's okay. Right? Um, I do think, uh, related to, uh, you know, studies with magical practice and et cetera. I think there are some probably methods in esotericism that would probably improve that. But

• 1:30:51AJ Gentile?

  What methods?

• 1:30:53Speaker 04

  Well, you know, this is the thing is, you know, people sensationalize the occult, right? But they really shouldn't because

• 1:31:02AJ Gentile?

  It just means hidden knowledge.

• 1:31:03Speaker 04

  Yeah, and, and to be fair, Buddhists probably think Catholicism is really weird and creepy.

• 1:31:08AJ Gentile?

  I bet they do.

• 1:31:08Speaker 04

  Right? A lot of this stuff, and I think it's because of horror movies and everything else. They're like, oh, right? It's like, well, no, if you actually read it, it's not that much more different than some of this stuff over here. It's a different maybe belief system, or it makes different, you know, metaphysical or theological claims. But it's not actually that spooky. Or I say that as a person who's like, yeah, I sit in the dark and think, but, but, you know, if you get used to it, it's, it's not, it's not overwhelmingly mind blowing. It's not like the movies. You're not going to crack open a book and suddenly it's going to come out.

• 1:31:45AJ Gentile?

  Well, we all picture like Jack Parsons' basement with Elrond Hubbard and there's a pentagram in Crowley and there's

• 1:31:52AJ Gentile?

  Is that what you're talking about?

• 1:31:52Speaker 04

  Yeah, sure, sure. Absolutely. And then that's

• 1:31:54AJ Gentile?

  Well, let's not, I don't want us to do that. Let's not mess with that.

• 1:31:58Speaker 04

  Why not?

• 1:32:00AJ Gentile?

  Because you said, I don't know a lot during this segment. So I don't know if we should have candles and sheep's blood in the basement.

• 1:32:06Speaker 04

  Yes, I didn't, I did not advocate sheep's blood. Granted, I know Parsons got a little iffy and Crowley definitely got a little iffy. But the core processes of magic aren't that different than prayer. True. And in fact, you know, if you look

• 1:32:20AJ Gentile?

  Or mantra?

• 1:32:20Speaker 04

  Or a mantra. And if you look at the Catholic Mass objectively, right? Wow, whole lot of magical implementation, symbols, pieces and objects that have spiritual meaning, right? All around Latin or a very codified set of rituals that are supposed to produce an intended effect.

• 1:32:39AJ Gentile?

  Yes.

• 1:32:41Speaker 04

  Hmm, hmm. Magic is no different. Now, in fairness, you get into the grimoires, right?

• 1:32:47AJ Gentile?

  Yep.

• 1:32:48Speaker 04

  You start going in this particularly from like the, you know, 15th century on and it's all like, I'm going to call these demons. I'm like, well, you're an idiot, but okay, fine. If you want to mess with a chaos creature hypothetically, whether it's a Jungian archetype in your mind or not, you go do that. But in terms of the actual procedure of, of magic, it's not much different than religion.

• 1:33:10Speaker 04

  It, it has some variations. It certainly has influenced religious history throughout, in a very profound and powerful way. But the trick with modern esotericism is not so much you're doing this method or ritual. It's that you've been training your mind in certain forms of altered states of consciousness,

• 1:33:29AJ Gentile?

  Yes.

• 1:33:29Speaker 04

  visualization, right?

• 1:33:33Speaker 04

  And single mindedness. In fact, you know, everybody loves Peter Carroll, the chaos magician. And he even came up with a mathematical formula, which, you know, spoiler alert, I'm, I'm actually working on doing some, maybe some actual studies that, that tease that formula apart. Because I've found some ways to operationalize his, his formula.

• 1:33:53AJ Gentile?

  Oh, that's interesting.

• 1:33:55Speaker 04

  And I'm, I'm hoping I get to do that.

• 1:33:57AJ Gentile?

  You found ways to do that mathematically?

• 1:34:00Speaker 04

  Yeah, sure. Absolutely. A lot of issues with science are just operationalization.

• 1:34:05AJ Gentile?

  True.

• 1:34:05Speaker 04

  Right? When you really think about science, all you're really doing is I need a reliable way to measure this. And I need to make sure that what I think I'm measuring is what I'm measuring. And that's, that's a lot of scale design and mathematics and, and you can do a pretty good job if you have a sufficient background to make sure that you're measuring what you're supposed to be measuring. Which is why I don't like it when people who don't have backgrounds like in paranormality or hauntings or esotericism or religion, sitting in a white tower in academia being like, I made the scale. I'm like, well, there's no guarantee that what these questions you designed with a tertiary knowledge are actually measuring what you think they're measuring.

• 1:34:46AJ Gentile?

  So who's the right person for that job? What background do you need?

• 1:34:48Speaker 04

  For any given field, you need someone probably with cultural experience in the thing they're trying to measure.

• 1:34:55Speaker 04

  You know, the, the, the current go to measure for paranormal belief is, and I can never say this gentleman's name right. I think it's Tabach, Tabachek or Tobiaschek. I'm not sure which is paranormal belief scale. But when I did the study with magical practitioners, they hated that scale.

• 1:35:10AJ Gentile?

  Why?

• 1:35:11Speaker 04

  Because it's basically built in 1980s satanic panic Protestantism.

• 1:35:17AJ Gentile?

  Okay, so what's on the scale?

• 1:35:19Speaker 04

  So then like, black cats are bad luck.

• 1:35:22AJ Gentile?

  Really?

• 1:35:22Speaker 04

  I believe in witches. And it's like, oh, man, for 2026, 20, like it does not fit. Now, from 1980s, where, you know, you had the, the satanic panic and Protestantism was much more, you know, that would kind of make sense, but it's not culturally relevant anymore. In fact, I would personally

• 1:35:40AJ Gentile?

  Ozzy Osbourne's on that list.

• 1:35:41Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. I, I would make, I, I would make the personal criticism and feel free to disagree, anyone can, that we probably need to retool paranormal belief measures. Because frankly, the culture has gotten a lot more broad. You know, what mediums think versus ufologists think versus occultists think, you know, that it's, they're, they're Venn diagram overlapping, but they're not the same. And if we want real assessments of that belief in terms of what it predicts, I think it's probably time for researchers to get together. Each of them with a respective background in the actual culture they're trying to sample. Because it is, you know, kind of culturally specific. We probably need to go back and retool those and do new scales.

• 1:36:22AJ Gentile?

  I think you're right.

• 1:36:24AJ Gentile?

  Do we go to heaven when we die?

• 1:36:27Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 1:36:28AJ Gentile?

  The reason for the question is how are we pulling discarnate entities out of wherever we go after this? How, how can you insult an abortion doctor and bring him back from? He's in hell. How do you bring him back from wherever he is?

• 1:36:44Speaker 04

  I, I don't have, I personally do not have fixed beliefs about the afterlife.

• 1:36:50AJ Gentile?

  You don't?

• 1:36:50Speaker 04

  In, in the sense of, I do think there is an afterlife.

• 1:36:55Speaker 04

  At the same time, I think that is one of the great metaphysics questions. And I, I won't lie, I've, I've spent probably thousands of hours at night trying to think about models that might make sense about the idea of, of what happens when we die and how that happens. Do I think there is a heaven or a hell or maybe some version of it?

• 1:37:16Speaker 04

  I mean, yeah, I'm not sure I'd use, I'm not sure I'd use the word heaven and or hell. I, I think depending on the, on the religion you look at and the tradition you look at, it gets different. I do think we persist. I'm not sure how much personally.

• 1:37:34Speaker 04

  And, and I allow for, for discarnate agency. And by the way, the Catholic Church did too for a long, long time.

• 1:37:38AJ Gentile?

  Yep.

• 1:37:40Speaker 04

  You know, modern, modern religion, particularly Protestantism, turned all of spiritual entities into God, angels, demons, maybe dead people, and that's it. Historically, the Catholics did not look at it that way. And frankly, they couldn't because, you know, for several hundred years, they were roaming around converting pagans and they just kind of fit stuff in.

• 1:38:00AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 1:38:01Speaker 04

  I, in terms of that kind of answer, obviously I don't have one. I wish I did. I, I think all the time about various models that might account for various major faiths and minor faiths and, and hierarchies. And again, I, I tend to turn back to as above, so below.

• 1:38:21Speaker 04

  You know, personal take.

• 1:38:24Speaker 04

  Everything we see with our own naked eyes has hierarchy. We see ecosystems. We see larger and smaller. It would make sense to me that if there is a spiritual structure to the universe, that it is likely to follow a hierarchical structure. What that looks like.

• 1:38:43AJ Gentile?

  Well, if, if prayer works, mantras work, meditation works, you're tapping into some universal consciousness.

• 1:38:49Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 1:38:50AJ Gentile?

  Manifestation, I believe that works.

• 1:38:51Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 1:38:52AJ Gentile?

  I mean, we're sitting here, this is manifestation in, in practice.

• 1:38:56Speaker 04

  And there's a fair amount of studies that support it.

• 1:38:57AJ Gentile?

  Yes.

• 1:38:58Speaker 04

  Across the board.

• 1:38:58AJ Gentile?

  Yes. The government studied it.

• 1:39:00Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:39:01AJ Gentile?

  Then maybe these entities are part of that, or maybe we're pulling them back out of the universal consciousness.

• 1:39:09Speaker 04

  It, it could be, it may also be that there are levels of closeness to physical reality. That, you know, if you, if, well, the Kabbalic system, you know, angels are archangels, you know, astral realm, lower critters, higher critters, you know, claphotic chaos entities, you know, you know, it, it's a model. Is it the right model? I don't know. But I would say from personal experience, I, I'm not sure. I think we overestimate how much genuine haunting, where there's like anomalous phenomena, if you want to accept, you know, if you want to accept that there are, you know, intelligent agency, and I do personally believe that. I'm not so sure that it's dead people as often as we think it's dead people.

• 1:39:52AJ Gentile?

  That's interesting.

• 1:39:53Speaker 04

  Well, you know, if, if you, if you look at, you know, all of the folklore accounts of the she, you know, with, with Ireland and Scotland and even, you know, Native American myths, a lot of cultures account for nature spirits, middle spirits. And again, if we're going with an as above, so below sort of hierarchy,

• 1:40:11AJ Gentile?

  Yep.

• 1:40:12Speaker 04

  there's going to be a tier. There's going to be, there's going to be a system of, of lower to higher entities. And I don't mean that like a evil-good sort of sense. You know, basic critters, just like frogs are not human beings, right? Or, or animals or slightly intelligent or maybe possibly, you know, if you move to animism, certain degrees or levels of current consciousness. You know, up to, you know, big boss management level angels and archangels that are handling the cogs of the universe, if you will.

• 1:40:43Speaker 04

  I'm not so sure that, you know, it, it's very popular to go, oh, it's a ghost. It is a dead person that is hanging around for some reason. And they're angry because they didn't get a Snickers bar before they died. Give them a Snickers bar. But if that was the case, I would expect to see a higher correlation between highly traumatic events in a history of a location.

• 1:41:02AJ Gentile?

  Yes.

• 1:41:02Speaker 04

  And actual verifiable phenomena. And I have not found that relationship. I don't think that relationship is as solid as people think it is.

• 1:41:11AJ Gentile?

  Could it, could it be something that's really just the intelligence of a critter that's just knocking glasses around? Just a disturbance in the force?

• 1:41:20Speaker 04

  I, I don't think it's entirely unintelligent. And in fact, I would even say like, in a lot of experiences I've had in haunted houses, if you, again, you want to take it at face value, right?

• 1:41:31Speaker 04

  It is weird how many times there will be phenomena that will kind of ramp up, that will be kind of spooky until someone flips their litter, freaks out, cries, screams, strong emotional feed reaction, and then it goes quiet for the rest of the night. Almost as if it got fed.

• 1:41:49AJ Gentile?

  It got fed, but it got fed by negative energy. Why would it want to eat that?

• 1:41:56Speaker 04

  Well, you know, if, if, again, we're going with an ecosystem of spirit, things have got to feed on something. And it

• 1:42:05AJ Gentile?

  I mean, this is demons, this is fairies, this is gin, this is in the east, they have spirits.

• 1:42:09Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:42:09AJ Gentile?

  It's all the same stuff. They all feed on negative energy.

• 1:42:12Speaker 04

  Yeah. Or some kind of energy, or some side, some sort of output, or you know, there is some sort of interaction between the human and, and the spirit. In fact, I'm not sure I'll ever get to it, but I, I would love to start doing cross-cultural comparisons and actually getting large scores of accounts of various entities from gen, demons, angels, fairies, right? Strip the labels off. Look purely at the interaction, the behaviors, the consequences, the outcomes, the phenomenological pieces.

• 1:42:45AJ Gentile?

  They're gonna line up.

• 1:42:46Speaker 04

  And yeah, to what extent do they mathematically line up? And then, when you put the labels back, do you get the hierarchy you think you would?

• 1:42:53AJ Gentile?

  Probably not. That's, that's an interesting turn.

• 1:42:55Speaker 04

  You know, again, that stuff's doable, but also, that's several hundred hours even with AI.

• 1:43:01AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 1:43:02Speaker 04

  You know, and then that's always an issue when it comes to this stuff, which is labor and funding. Sometimes, you know, Jim Horan and I have, have put in insane amounts of time, and it's not our day job, just, just, just to do the work that we have. But man, I would love to get my hands on a project like that. Because I think, because it, it makes the skeptic happy and the believer happy. If you want to treat it purely as an anthropological, or sociological, cultural comparison of, of spiritual beliefs, great, that works.

• 1:43:34AJ Gentile?

  That works.

• 1:43:35Speaker 04

  If you want to infer that it's somewhat real, does that give us some implications about theological or metaphysical structure? Sure.

• 1:43:42AJ Gentile?

  I wouldn't take much funding to do this.

• 1:43:44Speaker 04

  It wouldn't, it'd be more, it'd be more time, time and labor. And in fact, I've, I've dug with AI a little bit, be like, how much can you actually get a hold of, to where we can actually get, you know, actually database the raw accounts? And it's like, I can get a hold of a fair amount! And I'm like, hmm. But again, I'm trying to slow down right now, so. But yeah, I mean, I, I do have, aside from, you know, the mainstream research, I have a lot of theology questions, and I have this burning desire to dig into it. I don't know how far I'll get, I don't know if it's good for me, but you know, I'm just gonna keep praying a lot and thinking about it and seeing where, where things go.

• 1:44:24AJ Gentile?

  Yeah, keep praying while you do this. K. Owens, you talked about her pulling up with a truckload full of stuff. What was in the truck?

• 1:44:32Speaker 04

  Oh, that's the original rig system.

• 1:44:34AJ Gentile?

  That's right, the rig.

• 1:44:35Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:44:36AJ Gentile?

  What is all that stuff?

• 1:44:37Speaker 04

  Okay, so rigs is, is basically, you know, back in the day with the tech, in, in the early noughties, you know, you had to, oh goodness, what are the, what's the, the tri-field meters, right? Well, you had to specially pay just to get those connected with a jack. And then you had to run actual wire to an actual computer box with very specific software to data log the EMF. And so K. Owens was the first person who actually, with, by the way, kudos to her. Without a whole lot of educational background, she's like, by God, I'm just gonna teach myself. Internet was young back in those days. She put together the first system, and then I put together an improved system based on her tech.

• 1:45:21Speaker 04

  But yeah, when we were doing, by the time we were doing Black Moon, it was a full truck bed of equipment.

• 1:45:25AJ Gentile?

  What, what made her go to EMF in the first place, all those years ago? Didn't she start in like, the seventies, eighties?

• 1:45:31Speaker 04

  I think she was active, I want to say she was active in the late eighties to the nineties.

• 1:45:35AJ Gentile?

  Okay.

• 1:45:36Speaker 04

  And, you know, again, I, I don't want to tell, I guess, too much of her story, but she was originally tapped to be the ghost hunters group.

• 1:45:44AJ Gentile?

  It would've been great.

• 1:45:47Speaker 04

  But they, they, they went with the plumbers.

• 1:45:49AJ Gentile?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:50Speaker 04

  So, but no, she, she kept meticulous records for the time, I was, you know, I, I owe her a, a fair amount. She, she taught me the ropes of the original investigation, and I kinda went from, went with her.

• 1:46:02AJ Gentile?

  Yeah, you guys did scientific method.

• 1:46:04Speaker 04

  Yeah, and that was our deal. Because she was like, I can collect this data, I need help with the math. I'm like, I can do the math! And so that's, that's where that started, and it, it built on from there.

• 1:46:14AJ Gentile?

  Tell me about Nell.

• 1:46:18Speaker 04

  Nell, you're gonna have to contact me, which one of the, which one of the study, oh!

• 1:46:25AJ Gentile?

  She's a retired healthcare worker.

• 1:46:26Speaker 04

  Yes, with the, the San Antonio disturbances?

• 1:46:29AJ Gentile?

  Yes.

• 1:46:30Speaker 04

  Yes. So that was one of our haunted, haunted people syndrome case studies, that we did down in, we did down in Texas. And that is, that is a, that is a complicated story.

• 1:46:43AJ Gentile?

  I mostly want to know about Nell.

• 1:46:46Speaker 04

  Well, I want to be careful, because I don't want to break ethics, in terms of...

• 1:46:50AJ Gentile?

  Don't do that, just, what kind of person she was?

• 1:46:52Speaker 04

  She was, and I don't think it's, it's, it's, I don't think it's unethical to say this, haunted by a, a lot of, a lot of difficulty. You know, as we say in the paper, she had moved in five locations, over I think 10 years, the reported phenomena that she said she experienced, you know, with her, every time.

• 1:47:16AJ Gentile?

  What happened to her?

• 1:47:17Speaker 04

  Oh, let me think, man, it's been a while.

• 1:47:18AJ Gentile?

  Because she could not get away from it?

• 1:47:20Speaker 04

  No, she had a whole lot of physical, physical signs. She reported a lot of personal apparitional experiences. She reported a fair amount of psychokinesis with smaller objects. If I'm remembering correctly, don't quote me on this, a fair amount of physical illness. It did spread, the phenomena spread to her daughter and her granddaughter. Her husband was involved with it.

• 1:47:46AJ Gentile?

  Even after they left, that, left her? This is hitchhiker effect?

• 1:47:50Speaker 04

  Yep. And, and in fact, I was talking to Jim, and she has moved a couple of times since. We did that paper, and the phenomena has still continued.

• 1:47:59AJ Gentile?

  Wow.

• 1:48:01Speaker 00

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• 1:48:50Speaker 04

  So, you know, and, and in terms of how much of that was verifiable, you know, when, when we deal with that case, that is very much more of a cultural psychological manifestation of haunted people syndrome, right? What are the conditions by which this person is persistently haunted, and what are the dis-ease or psychological effects that are happening as a result? And, and she has, has persistently just continued to have problems.

• 1:49:15AJ Gentile?

  Did she have some early trauma? When did the...

• 1:49:17Speaker 04

  She reported, and I believe this is also in the report, so I think I'm safe there, she reported very negative spiritual experiences in childhood.

• 1:49:24AJ Gentile?

  Yep.

• 1:49:25Speaker 04

  Which I, by the way, there's not a lot of good studies on this, but I keep getting this, is trauma related to, right? In fact, we have another reporter who's, who's kinda digging into that right now. I really do think there is a relationship between childhood slash supernatural, spiritual, and normal trauma, and, and people being kind of prone to anomalous experience.

• 1:49:49AJ Gentile?

  Because, could this be person here again?

• 1:49:52Speaker 04

  I don't think so.

• 1:49:53AJ Gentile?

  You don't think so?

• 1:49:54Speaker 04

  And actually, in Nell's case, I believe her family, if I'm remembering correctly, oh man, I hope I'm not wrong on this, man, you take cognitive psychology, and then you proactive and retroactive memory interference, and then you never trust your memory again. It's just like, ta-ha! I want the certainty back!

• 1:50:10AJ Gentile?

  Yeah, let me know how that works for you, I'm looking for mine too.

• 1:50:13Speaker 04

  Well, middle age doesn't help either, but, no, if I remember, because I, I think we were in the car and we were talking about it, we were driving around one time, her, both her grandmother or her mom, reported a whole lot of, of spiritual negative experiences, and she reported childhood experiences that were near terrifying.

• 1:50:33AJ Gentile?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:34Speaker 04

  So...

• 1:50:35AJ Gentile?

  And these were not hypnotic experiences?

• 1:50:37Speaker 04

  No, no, I believe they were awake. And then there might've been some that were, but no, I, I think spiritual intrusion, if you wanted to find it that way culturally, was, was very much part of, part of her life, and has been since childhood.

• 1:50:49AJ Gentile?

  No, her story's very sad.

• 1:50:50Speaker 04

  Yeah. And, and, and I feel bad that we weren't able to provide her better methods for relief.

• 1:51:00AJ Gentile?

  I have some more questions about her, but let's take a quick break and we'll come back. We'll talk about haunted people.

• 1:51:04Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:51:06AJ Gentile?

  I'm gonna get a little random now, all my questions that don't fit into the structure.

• 1:51:11Speaker 04

  Ask your questions, bridge keeper. I'm not afraid.

• 1:51:14AJ Gentile?

  Well, the first one's kinda scary. Um, tell me about the, the baby and the gas demon. Put us in the room.

• 1:51:22Speaker 04

  The baby and the gas demon? Oh my goodness, you're gonna have to give me some reference for that one.

• 1:51:27AJ Gentile?

  It was kind of like an exorcism.

• 1:51:31Speaker 04

  Oh, I don't even know that you're referring to something I saw when I was like 15 or 16 years old.

• 1:51:38AJ Gentile?

  I am.

• 1:51:38Speaker 04

  Um, back in the day, I used to spend time, um, with various, uh, different churches and denominations. Um, and some of those were Pentecostal. Uh, and Pentecostals are so interesting. Uh, and I remember specifically, I was at a friend's house. Um, and, um, these, the individuals were very devout and they picked up the baby that was crying. And they literally did a prayer over the baby to exorcise the gas demon from the baby's tummy.

• 1:52:09AJ Gentile?

  Did they mean that?

• 1:52:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, no, no, no, no.

• 1:52:11AJ Gentile?

  Seriously?

• 1:52:11Speaker 04

  Yes, they were very, they were very serious. And at the time I was, I was very devout too. But I mean, even I, I was, I was a Methodist. So, you know, I was like, okay. Um, you know, I, I did spend some time with Pentecostals. I saw some very awesome instances of glossolalia. Right? Where the speaking and tongues occurred. Um, I've, I even saw in those Pentecostal churches, uh, people, you know, taken over by the spirit, slain in the spirit, where, you know, the, the preacher would be like, and the spirit is upon you. And they would flop over and roll around and laugh and, and, you know, bubbles in their stomach. Um, and in fact, I even had an episode, now looking back on it, I'm like, wow, that was some just interesting suggestion persuasion of facts. Um, but I actually had an episode back in those days where the, the preacher hit me and I'm like,

• 1:52:56Speaker 04

  huh? What? Whoa.

• 1:52:58AJ Gentile?

  And it worked?

• 1:52:58Speaker 04

  Uh, it did.

• 1:52:59AJ Gentile?

  What's happening there?

• 1:53:00Speaker 04

  Um, if I remember the sensation, um, it, it really did create, uh, some, some, some moderate psychosomatic symptoms. I, I felt very kind of lighthearted and kind of bubbly. I, I felt strange, almost tingly. Uh, for a minute or two, uh, and then I came out of it. Um, but I do remember being kind of ambushed. I, I, like, I, I think I ended up going up, I mean, this is, this was several decades ago.

• 1:53:28Speaker 04

  And of course, you know, the preacher hit. Um, by the way, for the record in college classes down the road, I would use this in terms of suggestion hypnosis responses. Right?

• 1:53:35AJ Gentile?

  Well, I was gonna ask, um, do you need to be suggestible for that to work?

• 1:53:39Speaker 04

  Um.

• 1:53:41AJ Gentile?

  Like, if I don't believe that's, like, I kinda don't believe he can do that.

• 1:53:44Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:53:45AJ Gentile?

  I kinda think you did that.

• 1:53:46Speaker 04

  So if we move into the psychology of it.

• 1:53:48AJ Gentile?

  Yes.

• 1:53:49Speaker 04

  Um, and on.

• 1:53:50AJ Gentile?

  Let's wrap up the baby demon. How do we solve the baby gas demon?

• 1:53:54Speaker 04

  Oh, they actually, uh, praised God after the baby farted or belched. I can't remember.

• 1:53:59AJ Gentile?

  And demon was expelled.

• 1:54:00Speaker 04

  Evidently, yes.

• 1:54:01AJ Gentile?

  Okay, well, there's some parenting advice.

• 1:54:03Speaker 04

  Yeah, so.

• 1:54:04AJ Gentile?

  Okay.

• 1:54:04Speaker 04

  When intestinal distress gets bad, um.

• 1:54:07AJ Gentile?

  It's just, it's just a demon and just fart and you're fine.

• 1:54:11Speaker 04

  I need a young priest and an old priest. Yeah, um.

• 1:54:15Speaker 04

  But no, you're, um, now you're talking about hypnosis.

• 1:54:18AJ Gentile?

  Yes.

• 1:54:18Speaker 04

  Right? Uh, conscious suggestibility. Um, and of course, you know, the funny thing is with production and television, it's not like those effects aren't used in various ways, uh, to create various effects.

• 1:54:29AJ Gentile?

  Sure.

• 1:54:30Speaker 04

  Um, but suggestion is insanely powerful. Now, the official, you know, the official

• 1:54:37Speaker 04

  data suggests that maybe about 10% of the population is fully suggestible. So in other words, I, you know, I can run routines and in fact, I used to have a hypnosis class in psychology. Where we would, for, you know, poop and giggles, I would do conscious suggestion effects. Um, and, and we even do exercises, um, we do the balloon exercise, or the, the balloon exercise. Your left, your left hand has a balloon tied to it, your right, um.

• 1:55:03AJ Gentile?

  Well, we've all been to those shows. I've been to one here in Vegas and one of my friends, she went up there and was clucking like a chicken.

• 1:55:08Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 1:55:09AJ Gentile?

  And she swears that she didn't, wasn't playing along. She actually did that. I'm like, come on.

• 1:55:14Speaker 04

  Yeah, no, no, um, it, it is real. Um, I, I did that. Uh, I stopped doing that class after a while because it, I had, one person went fully under.

• 1:55:23AJ Gentile?

  Really?

• 1:55:24Speaker 04

  Just from a suggestion exercise. Like, um, I would do mild induction, just to see if they were suggestible. And that student went completely under and blacked out for like five minutes. Um, and I'm like, okay, time to stop.

• 1:55:35AJ Gentile?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:36Speaker 04

  I mean, no harm, no foul. She was fine. Nothing inappropriate. Got her out. No, no side effects. Yay. Right? Um, but no, uh, you can do with, I used to use the balloon exercise, balloon brick exercise with hands. Um, with deep breathing, I'd turn off the lights and everything else, uh, to see who was suggestible. And then I'd say, you know, are there students who are willing to go further with this? Um, and I'd do the whole, you can't pull your hands apart.

• 1:56:00AJ Gentile?

  Sure.

• 1:56:00Speaker 04

  Um, and it's not hard with a person that has a mild degree of suggestibility. And of course, no doubt, the, being an authority figure as a professor adds to it, right? So there's all these components. A lot of that has to do with belief.

• 1:56:12AJ Gentile?

  Um, what, what makes someone suggestible? Is it physiological?

• 1:56:16Speaker 04

  I don't believe they actually know.

• 1:56:18AJ Gentile?

  Is it, does it have to do with intelligence?

• 1:56:21Speaker 04

  Uh, I don't think that would be the case either.

• 1:56:23AJ Gentile?

  Really?

• 1:56:24Speaker 04

  Um, now, again, this is me talking outside my area of expertise. Um, but to my knowledge, they've never really done a whole lot of neurological correlates or physiological correlates with hypnosis. Which, you know, notably as a side note, is pretty much an occult technique they ripped from.

• 1:56:40AJ Gentile?

  Sure it is.

• 1:56:40Speaker 04

  Ripped from, you know, esotericism, um, and then slapped a label on it.

• 1:56:44AJ Gentile?

  Um, I bet the military has studied this.

• 1:56:46Speaker 04

  Oh, I'm sure they have. And, and that's one thing I'm discovering, the more I try to dig around on data. That's proprietary. I'm like, son of a buck. I have, you know, I have a feeling a lot of social, psychological and odd effects are sitting either in the military or a corporation or a marketing firm, and we're never gonna see that data.

• 1:57:04AJ Gentile?

  Yep.

• 1:57:05Speaker 04

  Um, which makes me sad because I really wanna see that data. Um, but, you know, they did it. They have rights to it. But no, I, there is, and of course, you know, that also raises the question, to what extent you're like, oh, well, you're just consciously affect sub, sub facial cues and your actions are causing, I'm like, is it? You know, I, I have questions about contagion effects. Is there possibly psi? Going on in a contagion effect? Because when you look at the way it's measured, same thing with suggestibility and hypnosis. You're, you can't explain the mechanism. You're looking at person A trying to influence person B, and then you observe the effects of person B, but it is very unclear in any objective sense, what is going on in between there?

• 1:57:49AJ Gentile?

  We don't have any brain scans of someone who's under? We do?

• 1:57:52Speaker 04

  Uh, no, no, because, and this is, this is.

• 1:57:54AJ Gentile?

  Why not?

• 1:57:54Speaker 04

  Well, but, okay. You're making me talk way outside my field, so, um, I'm, I'm.

• 1:58:00AJ Gentile?

  I do that for a living.

• 1:58:01Speaker 04

  Yeah, the, the comment section's gonna be unpleasant.

• 1:58:03AJ Gentile?

  Nobody reads it.

• 1:58:04Speaker 04

  Here, to my knowledge, um, and actually, I, I feel fairly confident about this. Technology in terms of neuronal structure, right? What can we actually do in terms of measuring the brain? They're still using EEGs and EKGs and maybe MRIs. But there's only so much you can do with a person in a $2 million donut.

• 1:58:24AJ Gentile?

  Right. True.

• 1:58:25Speaker 04

  And it's only so fast.

• 1:58:26AJ Gentile?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:58:27Speaker 04

  Right? Um, offhand, I can't, I can't remember how many times a neuron, a neuron fires per second. Right? If, if you wanna get at the, you know, the hard problem of consciousness, you wanna get at all this stuff, then you're gonna have to have technology that not only fits on your helmet, but it measures at a resolution and a frequency so much beyond what we're currently doing, unless the military or the grays have it.

• 1:58:51Speaker 04

  Cause who the hell knows? Um, you know, you're gonna, you have to have a resolution of technology that we're not even close to. Um, and I respect, I, I'm not saying that, that brain chemistry functions or that neuroscience is incorrect. I'm just owning that the technology in terms of what we can really claim about it, which essentially still relates to this area lights up and this area lights up.

• 1:59:14AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 1:59:15Speaker 04

  Now, what's going on in those areas? Right?

• 1:59:18AJ Gentile?

  It's on or it's off?

• 1:59:19Speaker 04

  Uh, there's still a bunch of neurotransmitters. They have no clue about what they do. So, and I'm not saying it's not a noble field. It's a good field. I, I think the claims that get made about, we've proven that the brain, I'm like, eh.

• 1:59:30AJ Gentile?

  Have you?

• 1:59:31Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's like you've, you've found evidence that supports a theory to a certain percentage extent.

• 1:59:35AJ Gentile?

  Yep.

• 1:59:36Speaker 04

  Which is a true and fair statement.

• 1:59:37AJ Gentile?

  It is.

• 1:59:38Speaker 04

  Um, but.

• 1:59:39AJ Gentile?

  That's good research.

• 1:59:39Speaker 04

  But it's not, you know, again, I, I keep coming back to this theme. There's a whole lot of stuff that we haven't dug into sufficiently. To, I would say, merit some of the claims that get made. Uh, particularly when it comes to this idea of materialism and the brain is consciousness. I, I don't think, we're nowhere close to that. Um, in, in fact, I've, I've made some people angry and I'm sure there's some that would disagree. They're like, well, this proves the brain causes. I'm like, well, unless it's a receiver.

• 2:00:06AJ Gentile?

  What do you think? Is it a receiver?

• 2:00:07Speaker 04

  I personally, not being an expert, think it's a cloud model.

• 2:00:11AJ Gentile?

  So, so universal consciousness and we're at a terminal?

• 2:00:15Speaker 04

  Um, well, yeah, uh, very similar to, you know, if you use Google products, right? If you use Google Sheets, Google, right? There's a little bit of software that's in your browser.

• 2:00:24AJ Gentile?

  Yep.

• 2:00:25Speaker 04

  And then there's a lot of processing going on somewhere else. Um, and, and I've seen some theorists suggest that, that some quantum behavior is now possible in the brain. Like there's, they, before they were saying that, um, it's just too hot and liquidy in there.

• 2:00:38AJ Gentile?

  No.

• 2:00:39Speaker 04

  First, but the, I think the new research is suggesting, or at least the theorists are suggesting, like, oh, contraire.

• 2:00:45AJ Gentile?

  Oh, contraire, yeah.

• 2:00:45Speaker 04

  Again, outside my expertise level, so what.

• 2:00:47AJ Gentile?

  No, quantum processing in warm, what, animals has been proven? That, that's a fact.

• 2:00:52Speaker 04

  But if, if I was gonna put money on something, I would say, I, I think more of a cloud model. Um, I, I think, uh, there's some processing, I think, that's going on, but I do believe in a soul. So, you know.

• 2:01:03AJ Gentile?

  An, an individual unique soul?

• 2:01:09Speaker 04

  Yes, but I've been influenced by like Dionne Fortune and some other thinkers who are like, "Well, you kind of shed part of the personality and there's like a core component that goes up."

• 2:01:19Speaker 04

  I'm not saying I buy into that. I'm not saying like, "That's it," but I'm like, "Okay."

• 2:01:23AJ Gentile?

  I lean there.

• 2:01:24Speaker 04

  Maybe, yeah. You know, fitting in reincarnation and all this other stuff into a universal model. I, good luck.

• 2:01:33AJ Gentile?

  I kind of feel like we log out, we take our, whatever we learned back to wherever we go.

• 2:01:38Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:01:39AJ Gentile?

  Your soul group or whatever says, "How was it?" You go, "That was okay. Let's try it again." And you come back and you do it again.

• 2:01:44Speaker 04

  I will say, since I'm giving controversial opinions today, I do get nervous of the spiritual messages that conveniently only reflect moral values that we only gave a crap about for the last 50 years.

• 2:01:59AJ Gentile?

  Like what?

• 2:01:59Speaker 04

  Well, you know, if aliens or medium spirits come down and they're like, "You must care about the environment. The environment is..." You know, it's like, okay, so no deep spiritual truths, no like, "Be nice to one another. We all need to hug and recycle." I'm like, "No, not so much."

• 2:02:18Speaker 04

  And I only say that because as a social psychologist, I'm like, "How is this not just a reflection of current social values manifesting?" Right?

• 2:02:25AJ Gentile?

  Yes.

• 2:02:26Speaker 04

  Now, you start to show me accounts where people are showing me sort of like, kind of deep and sustaining moral tendencies or belief. I might tend to take that more seriously.

• 2:02:37Speaker 04

  But I tend, I tend to get suspicious as soon as I hear a trendy moral response out of a person that's, you know, either channeled a UFO or had a UFO experience or had, or medium, mediumship sort of responses. But that's my bias. I think that seems to be more of, "Well, I'll reframe. We're dirty test tubes. It's obvious we're dirty test tubes." And so I think if you wanted to go into like a metaphysics model or a spiritual model, there's the idea that we can have this divine pure, right, you know, channel come down, but because we are dirty test tubes, that's not even an opinion, right? We know that we don't perceive everything around us accurately. We know, you know,

• 2:03:21Speaker 04

  "I can't know what's going on in your head. We have to use language symbolically. We've got limits. We have our belief systems, our culture, right, that shapes how we're going to interpret this information." I think it's difficult to assume that a person is ever getting a pure message.

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• 2:04:37Speaker 04

  Personal take, but I mean, there's a fair amount of good philosophy and evidence that would support that claim.

• 2:04:41AJ Gentile?

  There is.

• 2:04:44Speaker 04

  So yeah, I'm not sure what to make of the modern revelations over the last 100 years. I'm not saying there's not some legitimate cases, and I certainly wouldn't debunk all of them as not paranormal or not having some sort of quote-unquote "truthiness" to them. But my general rule with all this stuff is, we should critique ourselves. You know, the difference between a Jim Jones cultist and someone that is spiritually seeking is their ability to look inside themselves, be introspective, and go, "Hmm, this might not be a good idea." In fact, if you go back to magical practice, one of the, you know, one of the things that Victorians consistently said is, "Yeah, get in the therapy. Go get you some therapy."

• 2:05:29Speaker 04

  In fact, the Golden Dawn, not that it's the end-all, be-all, but they're like, "At some point, you need to go see a psychotherapist." And, and I think the reason for that was very clear-cut. You need to be able to go, you know, if we accept that people are getting spiritual messages, or messages in general, but let's be clear, these are internal to the mind, right? So these are some form of, if you wanted to convert this completely outside of spirituality, go, "Let's just go Jungian. Let's accept that the unconscious can split off."

• 2:05:56AJ Gentile?

  Yep.

• 2:05:56Speaker 04

  And it can. We know that. Multiple personality, right? So that's not a stretch. So let's say that you've, and I think that's a good part of magical practice, which is, you're getting these conversations or intuitions or information, almost like a dialogue. And, you know, the rule of thumb is, if it's telling you, "You're awesome," it's probably bullcrap.

• 2:06:19Speaker 04

  And I think this is also why people that move, that can move into mediumship or magical practice of any form, if they're not, and this isn't easy, I want to be clear, this isn't an easy step to take. In fact, I think it's difficult.

• 2:06:36Speaker 04

  If you can't develop the ability to critique yourself and your own internal thought mechanisms,

• 2:06:43Speaker 04

  that stuff is dangerous. You know, you will look at a lot of, you know, once you get past the grimoires into the Victorian age, you will see a lot of people making claims, going, "This is not for everybody."

• 2:06:55AJ Gentile?

  It's not.

• 2:06:56Speaker 04

  And I don't think they were, I mean, yes, they were all rich, so it probably was a little bit of elitism, but, but aside from that, I think there's an underlying message, which is the case. Not everyone is mentally prepared to dig inside their psyche and go on a voyage. And if there's a lot of denial in your life, if there's, you know, if you haven't come to terms with the fact that you can be an asshole sometimes, because a lot of people don't like that, right? A lot of people don't, you know, and our culture doesn't value that either. You know, everyone else is the bad guy, but not you, AJ. You're special.

• 2:07:27AJ Gentile?

  Nope.

• 2:07:28Speaker 04

  And in every human being, you know, Jung, classic Jung, and classic Freud, right? Everybody has a dark side. And, you know, and that's why, particularly with Jung, he was like, "You're not going to become enlightened, individuated, right, until you embrace your shadow." And what was the shadow? All the repressed crap you do that you don't want to earn or own.

• 2:07:48AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 2:07:50Speaker 04

  You know, so if you want to look at spiritual experiences as a, just a Jungian psychological journey, I don't care, you know, if it works, who cares?

• 2:08:01Speaker 04

  That is a serious journey, and it does have dangers. And it requires a degree of honesty with the self that our culture doesn't engender. Our cultural, culture does not teach people to be selective and critical of their own thought processes.

• 2:08:19AJ Gentile?

  So let's say I'm not mentally prepared to do it. I do it anyway. What could happen?

• 2:08:23Speaker 04

  I think you are going to end up in a state of existential crisis. I think depending on genetic proclivity and the degree to which you are in a state of denial, you may end up in a breakdown state. I think it might facilitate anxiety. I think...

• 2:08:39AJ Gentile?

  So don't mess with this. So is this why Golden Dawn says, "See a therapist?" Because we need to rule out everything else?

• 2:08:45Speaker 04

  Yeah, I wouldn't even say rule out. I think it's more of, you know,

• 2:08:50Speaker 04

  the magicians in those days, "The left-hand path and the right-hand path. I just do it for spiritual enlightenment. Like, ooh, practical magic is dirty." I'm like, "Yeah, okay, whatever." But the truth is, you are messing with your own mind in this process. Whether you want to accept, whether you want to accept the spiritual component of it or not, you are still internally going into the imaginal state, into your own internal thought processes, and poking around at things that we don't train people to poke around at. And yes...

• 2:09:23AJ Gentile?

  And this doesn't need to be parapsychological at all.

• 2:09:25Speaker 04

  No.

• 2:09:26AJ Gentile?

  This is just you messing with your own head.

• 2:09:28Speaker 04

  No. And I've had volunteers back in the day who frankly just were not a fit to do investigations. I remember there was a minister who joined for a little while, and the phenomena did match the belief system, and it was causing crisis, and he got out.

• 2:09:43AJ Gentile?

  My guess would be people that are highly suggestible would not be good on an investigation.

• 2:09:48Speaker 04

  As subjects, bahahaha.

• 2:09:51AJ Gentile?

  As subjects, they're good.

• 2:09:52Speaker 04

  Yes, but no, in terms of their mental health, no.

• 2:09:53AJ Gentile?

  No.

• 2:09:55Speaker 04

  And, and I've, we've had a couple of situations over the years where that has gone very, very south.

• 2:10:03Speaker 04

  So...

• 2:10:04AJ Gentile?

  Do you want to tell us one of those stories or no?

• 2:10:06Speaker 04

  Okay, well...

• 2:10:08AJ Gentile?

  Drink your coffee.

• 2:10:11Speaker 04

  Mental courage.

• 2:10:13AJ Gentile?

  I'll have some nicotine or buckle, buckle it up.

• 2:10:18Speaker 04

  Um, so the reason, the reason we stopped doing investigations.

• 2:10:24AJ Gentile?

  Oh, you stopped?

• 2:10:24Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:10:25AJ Gentile?

  Oh, boy. Okay.

• 2:10:26Speaker 04

  Yeah. Is we had what you can either call a dissociative fugue or amnesia or a full blown possession.

• 2:10:37AJ Gentile?

  This is dissociative fugue, so you don't know what's going on at all?

• 2:10:41Speaker 04

  Yeah, blank out for, for 30 to 45 minutes with radical change in behavior.

• 2:10:47Speaker 04

  And here's what's interesting. It happened to two different people on two different occasions. One went into a full blown, if, you know, again, I'm, I'm sorry, I always wiffle waffle on terminology. One went into what would look like a full blown possession.

• 2:11:05AJ Gentile?

  Did this happen in the same place?

• 2:11:06Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 2:11:07AJ Gentile?

  Same place?

• 2:11:08Speaker 04

  Yep. And, and in fact-

• 2:11:10AJ Gentile?

  Same entity with two people?

• 2:11:11Speaker 04

  Looks like it.

• 2:11:12AJ Gentile?

  What?

• 2:11:15Speaker 04

  And, and this is where, this is where you just throw science out the window and you're like, well, this happened. Interpret it as you will.

• 2:11:22AJ Gentile?

  Is this the place where you said, I'm not going anymore?

• 2:11:24Speaker 04

  Yes. And in fact, that place was so bad, we called the owners and said, you need to not let people in here anymore.

• 2:11:30AJ Gentile?

  What happened to those people who went into a fugue state?

• 2:11:34Speaker 04

  So, okay, we did four investigations of that place over a period of about a year and a half. It was an abandoned rectory. I think it's actually been on a couple of ghost hunting shows back in the day. It's in Cincinnati. I think it was called Saddam, the Saddamsville Rectory.

• 2:11:50Speaker 04

  It did produce knocking and rapping. It did produce really loud weird noises. But I think it was the second session or the second time we were there. My very good friend and, and we're, we're still a great friend. She helps me with the business. I remember sitting across from her and I looked over and I know her really well and she got this look in her eyes.

• 2:12:16Speaker 04

  That said, I'm about to beat the living crap out of you. I mean, like it was just seething anger. I know her really well.

• 2:12:24AJ Gentile?

  Was this a switch or was this just?

• 2:12:26Speaker 04

  Just sitting there doing nothing, not talking to nothing. All of a sudden, just this.

• 2:12:31Speaker 04

  And I'm like, did I do something wrong? And she got up, walked out of the house. With a five pound flashlight, which is why I was kind of being careful with her because I'm like, oh, that's brain damage if it hits.

• 2:12:47Speaker 04

  And basically for about 10 minutes was just roaming around in this state of extreme rage and anger. Half out of it, half, half in it. By the way, historically, psychologically, never saw that behavior out of that individual before. Not her nature.

• 2:13:03AJ Gentile?

  What was she saying?

• 2:13:05Speaker 04

  She didn't talk. If I remember correctly, she was kind of gritting her teeth.

• 2:13:10AJ Gentile?

  Did she eat anything or do anything?

• 2:13:12Speaker 04

  No, she just was, and it was outside. It was cold that night, I believe. And after being away from the building in about five minutes, she basically said, I was gonna murder you.

• 2:13:22AJ Gentile?

  Wow.

• 2:13:23Speaker 04

  She's like, I felt, now here's what's interesting. The owners of this, this location were suffering from similar problems. The marriage evidently, if I remember correctly, was in great degree of discord because either the husband or the wife, and I think it was the husband, was going into these fits of uncontrolled rage.

• 2:13:40Speaker 04

  And it was becoming a persistent issue.

• 2:13:43AJ Gentile?

  But only him?

• 2:13:44Speaker 04

  If I remember correctly, yes. And so, you know, and, and again, there was no, there were no triggers to this whatsoever. There wasn't a conversation. I wasn't poking her. The other team wasn't insulting. Like in other words, there was just quiet. We were doing our shift in those days. To minimize interference. I was like, look, we don't roam around. Okay. We set up our hotspot areas. You pick the spot, sit your butt down.

• 2:14:10AJ Gentile?

  Yep.

• 2:14:10Speaker 04

  And that's where you're gonna be. If you're gonna get up, great, but say, hey, I'm leaving this area for the auto recorder. And then, you know, go to the new area and then sit down. Let's not make shuffling noises. Let's not make, right? Let's minimize contamination as much as possible.

• 2:14:22AJ Gentile?

  Yes.

• 2:14:25Speaker 04

  And so, yeah, for about, I think it was about a duration of 15 or 20 minutes.

• 2:14:29AJ Gentile?

  That's a long time to be in that state. I mean, you have to be, when do you start to panic? Like, is she ever gonna be okay again?

• 2:14:36Speaker 04

  Well, that, I wasn't worried on that one. It's the next one that scared us. Because she did come out and then, yeah, basically, you know, long story short, was like, I really felt like murdering you.

• 2:14:46AJ Gentile?

  So she wasn't fully disassociated? She was?

• 2:14:49Speaker 04

  No, but she was somewhat disassociated. So she, she said she felt kind of detached and that she wasn't herself. And that getting out of the house helped.

• 2:14:59Speaker 04

  So moved forward and we had another member. Who was perfectly fine going up the stairs. I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna do that. And then they went into a full dissociative state, except at this point.

• 2:15:16Speaker 04

  Same anger in the eyes, except, and this is completely personal, something else appeared, seemed to me to be there. Like my intuition went off bad on this one. I was like, okay.

• 2:15:30AJ Gentile?

  So you weren't questioning, did I do something? You saw?

• 2:15:33Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:15:33AJ Gentile?

  You recognized this?

• 2:15:34Speaker 04

  Yeah. And, and if I remember correctly, I still have these tapes and I'm almost afraid to go through them.

• 2:15:39AJ Gentile?

  We need to see them.

• 2:15:40Speaker 04

  I need to, well, this was mostly audio. I don't think we caught a whole lot of it on camera because here's what went down. This person started behaving completely opposite to their nature.

• 2:15:53AJ Gentile?

  This is an old directory?

• 2:15:54Speaker 04

  Yes. And at that point.

• 2:15:59Speaker 04

  I actually went, and I never did this in the group. I, I kept it scientific, but at this point I'm like.

• 2:16:06Speaker 04

  And, you know, kind of growling, angry. At the time I had, I still have leg issues, but at the time I had to use cane. Cause I, I blew out my hip and my leg a little bit. So I tried to actually kick my leg out from underneath me.

• 2:16:20Speaker 04

  And was proud of it. Was like, I'm gonna kick your leg out. All right. So interestingly enough, because we had had this episode before, I actually took the time to make holy water. For lack of better words. Old school with salt in it. Right?

• 2:16:37Speaker 04

  So I actually made a circle around her. And it took her five minutes to get out of it.

• 2:16:46AJ Gentile?

  Holy water circle?

• 2:16:47Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm. Couple of invocations, made a circle. I'm like, cause I was like, this might be serious. So I, I took it as kind of serious. And so, yeah, I made a circle and she struggled with it for about three to five minutes. And when she got out, she was proud. She said, she said, I broke your circle.

• 2:17:05AJ Gentile?

  Wow.

• 2:17:06Speaker 04

  And I was like, I, you know, me being a cocky bastard, like, I'll just make another.

• 2:17:13Speaker 04

  But it was, I was dealing with a different person. Now, whether you want to call that, you know, dissociative identity, whether you want to call that, you know, some sort of psychological condition. I'd end up, by the way, consulting some other PhD clinical psychologists to be like, what was this?

• 2:17:26AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 2:17:26Speaker 04

  The one guy, one guy in particular was like, yeah, it was a possession. I'm like, well, shit, that doesn't help.

• 2:17:32Speaker 04

  But we, at that point, it, it went from a scientific investigation to a, we may have a possession on our hands. What the hell are we gonna do here? And so this individual, we finally got them outside. They were physically resistant.

• 2:17:45AJ Gentile?

  Physically resistant?

• 2:17:46Speaker 04

  Yeah. So they were, they were combative. One of the members there who had just come with us. Started asking some questions in Latin to which she was responding correctly, even though she didn't have a Latin background.

• 2:17:57AJ Gentile?

  Oh, no.

• 2:17:59Speaker 04

  And interestingly, there were some reports, and again, you know, you don't have to believe any, I'm just telling you the story. There were some members that were claiming that they were getting impressions from her, even though they weren't in the same room. So there was a lot of weirdness going on and, and to this day.

• 2:18:19Speaker 04

  We're not entirely sure. But at the end of the day, she was outside for about 30, 40 minutes in 20, 30 degree weather. We were chasing after her. She remained violent. She remained obstinate. She was cussing. She was. And then finally, with a fair amount of prayer and a cup of holy water on her head, she snapped out of it.

• 2:18:40Speaker 04

  To which she blacked out. She said she didn't remember a thing.

• 2:18:44AJ Gentile?

  She didn't remember any of this?

• 2:18:45Speaker 04

  Nope. Now, interestingly, post hoc.

• 2:18:49Speaker 04

  She would find herself, if I remember correctly, the stories correctly, she would find herself coming back to the website of the location and not notice that she had gone to the computer and pulled up the pictures. And she would report feeling a longing to go back there.

• 2:19:05AJ Gentile?

  Wow.

• 2:19:06Speaker 04

  So, you know.

• 2:19:09AJ Gentile?

  I don't know why that bothers me, but it does.

• 2:19:11Speaker 04

  It lingered. Symptoms of that lingered for, I want to say, almost two to three months. And I'll be honest with you, at that point, because up until that point, I'm like, I do science, right?

• 2:19:22AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 2:19:23Speaker 04

  And, you know, and the members were aware. I dabbled with some, you know, tomfoolery, so to speak. But I never went in that direction, right? It was always, we're here for the data. You know, that turned into basically a religious exorcism episode. And it was so disturbing to the members that we, it just broke everybody up. Rumor has it, the one person that came with us as a guest, never talked to us again and went to the priesthood. So, I don't know if that's really true, but that's, that's, that's the rumor. It fundamentally shook the entire group to its core. And pretty much broke the investigation team up for quite a while.

• 2:20:04AJ Gentile?

  Is that the only place that you said not going back?

• 2:20:06Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah. I mean, I've, I've seen, you know, a lot of that.

• 2:20:10AJ Gentile?

  So it takes a lot to scare you off?

• 2:20:12Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah. Yeah. And honestly, I could confront that again, but you know, I do have a sense of ethics and I'm like, I'm not, I was not comfortable putting people at risk.

• 2:20:20AJ Gentile?

  Well, that's really the thing. You could confront it, but if you're not the one chosen, you put someone else in danger.

• 2:20:25Speaker 04

  I mean, at the end of the day, I was the one that, that tried to push it out, if you want to believe it, right? And, and it worked. Yay! Wouldn't want to do it twice in one night.

• 2:20:32AJ Gentile?

  No.

• 2:20:33Speaker 04

  And again, this is all personal, certainly outside my realm as a scientist. But, but no, the phenomena that occurred from that was...

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• 2:21:41Speaker 04

  Mind boggling. And to this day, I mean, I'm not throwing shade on the person it happened to. I can't prove that that wasn't a dissociative episode. I can't prove she was prone to kind of psychosomatic effects.

• 2:21:55AJ Gentile?

  Okay.

• 2:21:56Speaker 04

  But this was certainly beyond her normal mode of behavior. And of course, we called them and said, you all need to get rid of this place. You need to get rid of the furniture. You need to not let people in here. It's dangerous.

• 2:22:05AJ Gentile?

  Do you think if they knocked that building down, that the entity would still be there?

• 2:22:10Speaker 04

  My understanding is they did shut it down. Now, I don't know if the building's still there.

• 2:22:14AJ Gentile?

  I mean, knock that, you gotta, you gotta knock it down.

• 2:22:16Speaker 04

  I would not disagree. And, and probably salt the earth.

• 2:22:19AJ Gentile?

  Salt the earth.

• 2:22:20Speaker 04

  From, from the spiritual perspective, I'd say salt the earth and, because something, something not nice is there. You know, the funny thing is, and again, take this for what it's worth, it was either the first one or the second one, you know, they looked at me at some point and they're like, well, they really want you. And I'm just like, okay.

• 2:22:43AJ Gentile?

  Okay, that's enough.

• 2:22:45Speaker 04

  Yeah. So it's, and you know, if you want to frame for it, acted like a demon. Was it a demon? I don't know. What, what do you think? But seemed to be a demon that very much fed on sexuality and emotion. So if you were going to go Kabbalit classification, the clip of corresponding to Nietzsche. So, nature. If, if you don't, then you say dissociative feud or a brief psychotic episode, but not necessarily history of that.

• 2:23:14AJ Gentile?

  If you have no history of that, then I don't buy that.

• 2:23:16Speaker 04

  Yeah. You know, and again, I don't formally lean one way or another. I'm like, this was a very weird liminal thing that happened. And, and it was sufficiently weird and disturbing enough to, to prevent us from, from moving forward.

• 2:23:30AJ Gentile?

  And how is she doing now?

• 2:23:32Speaker 04

  Not entirely clear. It caused, it caused splits. So I very much hope they're well. But yeah, that was a, that was a bit of a bender.

• 2:23:43AJ Gentile?

  I told you, I'm not really a believer, but kind of, but not really, but kind of. I had a night hag experience without knowing the lore of that before.

• 2:23:55Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:23:56AJ Gentile?

  I was maybe mid 30s, happened on vacation at a, kind of an old hotel. And it was the scariest experience of my life before and since. And it felt very real, like this old woman climbing into bed, pressed down. It was, there was sexual violence. I've told, I've said this story on the channel, so you can find the whole thing in detail. I couldn't go back in the room. My wife had to pack us up. We had to leave the building. And I'm not really a believer. You did a lesson on you to me on the night hag.

• 2:24:31Speaker 04

  Yes, yes.

• 2:24:33AJ Gentile?

  What is going on with her?

• 2:24:34Speaker 04

  Um, okay. Before I go into that, I'm going to back up and make a general statement, which is, you know, and we kind of touched this earlier. Well, I can explain this. Well, I was still terrified. Thanks. You know, like, so, so there's a point where if it brings comfort to explain it in scientific terms, you know, we're almost moving to a clinical psychology realm.

• 2:24:56AJ Gentile?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:24:57Speaker 04

  Great.

• 2:24:58AJ Gentile?

  I tell myself it's hypnagogic.

• 2:25:00Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:25:01AJ Gentile?

  But it didn't feel like it, man.

• 2:25:02Speaker 04

  And, and, and, you know, in terms of the research of, of, of sleep paralysis slash hypnagogic episodes, they're, one, overlapping, and again, not well-defined. You know, they're, they're, they're case studies, there are post hoc accounts, again, in terms of slapping an EEG, I mean, they have done EEG studies, remember, with, with sleep paralysis. But when you get that combination of the night hag and everything else, those accounts, you can label them scientifically. We can see a set of symptoms that are likely with sleep, sleep paralysis in particular.

• 2:25:38AJ Gentile?

  But why her? I wasn't, I had no prime, I wasn't primed for that at that time.

• 2:25:43Speaker 04

  Well, were you, were you poking around with anything ghosty at all?

• 2:25:48AJ Gentile?

  No. Nope.

• 2:25:49Speaker 04

  Okay. You know, and, and again, if we go beyond the, you had a hypnagogic episode with sleep paralysis, and your mind created it. I mean, if you want to go a pure scientific explanation, maybe you watched some sort of horror movie or film that unconsciously embedded in your mind, that in turn, you know...

• 2:26:11AJ Gentile?

  But the real question is, why are we, why is it this old woman that a lot of us see? I don't, I don't watch horror movies. I don't like horror movies. So, why do we see, why not an old man? Why not a, a red demon with horns?

• 2:26:25Speaker 04

  Well, I would, have you read Hufford?

• 2:26:26AJ Gentile?

  No.

• 2:26:27Speaker 04

  You might want to, you might want to get Terror That Comes in the Night.

• 2:26:30AJ Gentile?

  Oh, great.

• 2:26:32Speaker 04

  By Hufford. Well, what he does is, he does a cultural comparison of night hag experiences. So you might actually find some psychological comfort in that. And what he does is, he makes a separation between what's called the experiential source hypothesis and the cultural source hypothesis. And his whole premise was, either this phenomena has some sort of, this experience of the night hag has some core, actual phenomenological reality, right? Some sort of core real experience that, you know, culture is laying on top of it, or it's purely a cultural source, right? Now, we know that sleep paralysis and versions of the night hag occur cross-culturally.

• 2:27:08AJ Gentile?

  Yes.

• 2:27:09Speaker 04

  Right? So Cheyenne's a good resource for that. There's a couple of others that have published in the last few years, but I don't remember the names.

• 2:27:14AJ Gentile?

  After I told this story to the audience, email just went crazy.

• 2:27:19Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:27:20AJ Gentile?

  A thousand people. We all saw the same thing.

• 2:27:22Speaker 04

  And I'm trying, and I'm trying not to apply, I'll apply my belief, I'll be like you, I'll apply the belief, I'll do the opposite. I'll apply the belief at the end.

• 2:27:29AJ Gentile?

  Okay.

• 2:27:30Speaker 04

  So we know sleep paralysis, right? Essentially is, the motor cortex shuts down at night, so you don't act out your dreams and jump out a window, you know, yay! And then, of course, when it comes back, you know, it's not on yet. So that's paralysis.

• 2:27:42AJ Gentile?

  Yep.

• 2:27:43Speaker 04

  By the way, neat trick for anyone that goes through this, if you have repeated sleep paralysis, the trick is not moving your body. The trick is moving a single digit.

• 2:27:52AJ Gentile?

  Okay.

• 2:27:53Speaker 04

  I've had one episode, and luckily, luckily, I learned this before I had the episode. So you focus on your finger or your toe.

• 2:28:02AJ Gentile?

  What was your episode?

• 2:28:04Speaker 04

  I didn't have any sort of phenomena with it. I just woke up and couldn't move. And I, and I remember it took about 45 seconds till the panic sets in, because in fact, the panic is a very common feature of this occurring early on, unreasonable panic.

• 2:28:15AJ Gentile?

  Sure. I'm a lucid dreamer, so you learn to get past the buzzing.

• 2:28:19Speaker 04

  Yeah. And I've actually got better with lucid dreaming over the years. But anyway, but I remember in my episode, I'm like, pick your finger, pick your finger, pick your finger, pick your finger. And, and within like 30, because I knew the panic was coming, right? I'm like, I know it's coming. I gotta get it. And I managed to get the finger wiggling and I snapped out of it in time. So there is obviously a biological component to it, like a neurological, biological component to it. But Hufford did show that there are very much cross-cultural comparisons. And of course, Cheyenne in South America showed this as well in Mexico, that this, some version of the night hag has different representations across multiple cultures. Now, you can say that this just is a combination of sleep

• 2:29:01Speaker 04

  paralysis, which is very obviously measurable, plus a hypnagogic episode.

• 2:29:05AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 2:29:06Speaker 04

  Right? And in fact, I believe in hypnagogic episodes to the point that if a person reports haunting phenomena coming out of sleep or into sleep, I tend to be like, eh, probably hypnagogic.

• 2:29:16AJ Gentile?

  Sure.

• 2:29:17Speaker 04

  Right? Or hypnapompic, depending on whether they're awake or asleep.

• 2:29:19AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 2:29:20Speaker 04

  But again, from Hufford and other sources, there have been both subjective and objective paranormal phenomena that can be associated with those episodes.

• 2:29:29AJ Gentile?

  Hmm.

• 2:29:30Speaker 04

  That are more difficult to explain.

• 2:29:32AJ Gentile?

  Oh, boy.

• 2:29:33Speaker 04

  So if you want me to tell you with 100% certainty that that was just you and your head, I'm not going to tell you that. Um, you know, back to our earlier conversation, when I was 12 or 13, I had a visit from something. Um, I do not remember a specific trigger. Um, I do remember I sat up out of bed and then there was just something in the room that I couldn't see positioned at the doorway.

• 2:30:02AJ Gentile?

  Couldn't see, but knew it was there.

• 2:30:03Speaker 04

  Yep. Absolute feeling of evil.

• 2:30:06AJ Gentile?

  Uh, yes.

• 2:30:06Speaker 04

  Oppression.

• 2:30:07AJ Gentile?

  Yes.

• 2:30:08Speaker 04

  And again, I'm in the doorway. You can't get out and it stayed with me all night.

• 2:30:13AJ Gentile?

  All night.

• 2:30:14Speaker 04

  Mm hmm. Um, which frankly was responsible for my religious conversion. It terrified me so badly that that's, uh, that's what ended up leaning me towards, uh, thinking about seminary as a teenager.

• 2:30:28AJ Gentile?

  Of course it would. Anyone who's had this experience knows how real it feels.

• 2:30:33Speaker 04

  Now, you know, related to what you experienced, um, I subsequently found out that, um, where I grew up had a lot of not friendly things around. Um, yeah, I don't have a better word for this. Some land is friendly. Some land less so. I happen to live next to a, a, a boy scout camp with a 30 year history.

• 2:30:58AJ Gentile?

  Oh no.

• 2:30:59Speaker 04

  A very, very, very crazy.

• 2:31:01AJ Gentile?

  Oh no.

• 2:31:02Speaker 04

  Phenomena. Um, but the thing is where I live is about as peaceful and kind as you can imagine, but I kid you not, you drive seven miles and suddenly you're like, did I just enter the set of hocus pocus? What the hell is this?

• 2:31:14AJ Gentile?

  You could feel that?

• 2:31:15Speaker 04

  Oh yeah. I, and you can almost even see it in the, in the terrain. It just, it feels fundamentally different. Um, there was a church about a mile and a half from where I lived and there was a road that goes all the way around. And, uh, by the time I was of driving age, none of my friends would drive around that church because we used to do it. Um, I remember particularly I had a friend, we drove around it. We're sitting in the car and I'd get this overwhelming feeling of something nasty in the backseat.

• 2:31:46AJ Gentile?

  In the backseat?

• 2:31:47Speaker 04

  In the backseat, like something was hitching a ride.

• 2:31:49AJ Gentile?

  Yeah.

• 2:31:49Speaker 04

  It was, it was, and I remember looking over at my friend and going, and I didn't say a word. He's like, yeah, I know.

• 2:31:56AJ Gentile?

  Uh, you just gave me chills.

• 2:31:57Speaker 04

  Yeah. He's like, yeah, no, I know. And from that point forward, there was another route to my house. We just, everybody just took that route.

• 2:32:02AJ Gentile?

  Go around it.

• 2:32:03Speaker 04

  And I didn't even tell my friends, take that route. Uh, you know, one crazy hypothesis I can't back up is that whatever was there from that church could get just far enough that it came to visit me in my teenage years.

• 2:32:13AJ Gentile?

  Yeah.

• 2:32:14Speaker 04

  You know, if, if you want the non-psychological explanation, um, yeah, I don't know. But you know, back to your case, um, you know, if, if I was you, I'd be inclined to start looking at my family history to see if you have practitioners, see if you have people with curses, see if you have lineages of people that dabbled with stuff they shouldn't.

• 2:32:34AJ Gentile?

  Oh, I'm from Southern Italian. They did all that stuff.

• 2:32:37Speaker 04

  Oh yeah. Yeah. You're screwed.

• 2:32:38AJ Gentile?

  I'm screwed.

• 2:32:39Speaker 04

  It's, uh, folk Catholicism. I mean, you know, sometimes they didn't just stick with the saints.

• 2:32:45AJ Gentile?

  Yeah. I wear Saint Michael every day.

• 2:32:47Speaker 04

  Yeah. Um, you know, and, and also keep in mind, you know, why the grimoires survived, right?

• 2:32:52AJ Gentile?

  Why?

• 2:32:52Speaker 04

  Cause priests kept that.

• 2:32:54AJ Gentile?

  Yes.

• 2:32:55Speaker 04

  So, um, you know, you, you might want to look a little bit into your family history.

• 2:32:59AJ Gentile?

  I might just leave it alone.

• 2:33:01Speaker 04

  Or just, yeah.

• 2:33:02AJ Gentile?

  I'm just gonna leave it alone.

• 2:33:03Speaker 04

  Um, but no, I mean, you know, you want the standard answer? Yep. You had a hypnagogic episode with sleep paralysis.

• 2:33:08AJ Gentile?

  That's what I'm going with.

• 2:33:09Speaker 04

  Or some hot old lady decided to have her away with you.

• 2:33:14AJ Gentile?

  Is sexual violence part of the, is that common?

• 2:33:17Speaker 04

  It, it can, it, it can be. Um, I've seen accounts, uh, that have definite sexual content to them. And I would imagine that that is, cause I make that joke, but I would imagine that is even more horrifying and terrifying. Um, and, and with that.

• 2:33:31AJ Gentile?

  We had to leave and I'm, I'm not afraid of anything.

• 2:33:34Speaker 04

  Sure. Well, I mean, from a clinical psychology perspective, right? Um, I'm not a clinician, but I play one on TV. Um, you know, good move. Why not? What, what do you have to prove to anybody? Right? Like I just had a traumatic experience. I know. I'll confront that right now.

• 2:33:48AJ Gentile?

  Nope.

• 2:33:49Speaker 04

  Or go home, recoup at base camp.

• 2:33:51AJ Gentile?

  Yep.

• 2:33:52Speaker 04

  Um, interestingly, I, I did, uh, in the last year, get contacted by a person who, um, repeatedly was having very traumatic succubus, incubus experiences. Um, and they reported, um, a lot of that. Uh, it, it happens evidently.

• 2:34:10AJ Gentile?

  Uh, there's a reason that succubus incubuses are, exist.

• 2:34:13Speaker 04

  Yeah. Um, so, you know, and again, all of this comes down to, um, it, it's some kind of real. You know, if, if you wanna, if you wanna debunk it or you wanna find, you wanna find mainstream explanations, you can and you probably will. There's an overlap there. Um, at the same time, I think sometimes we don't pay enough attention to the fact of, was it real to you?

• 2:34:32AJ Gentile?

  Sure was.

• 2:34:33Speaker 04

  And, and what were the consequences of that? And how did, you know, it much more in a clinical psychology perspective. And it's why we've written some papers on haunted people syndrome for clinicians, right? How do you address this without, you know, cause it's not good clinical psychology to be like, you're full of shit.

• 2:34:49AJ Gentile?

  No, that's not helpful.

• 2:34:50Speaker 04

  Like you, you just broke rapport, bad move, right? You're crazy. Like, okay, that's not how you start a therapy session. You know, if these people believe it where it's rational, you know, whether it's debunkable or not, if it's not about I'm right, you're wrong. Um, and honestly, I think sometimes we get too far into that with some of this stuff. Um, you know, it is about what did you experience? What did you perceive? How are you processing it? And are you okay? And if you're not okay, how can we help you cope with what you're experiencing in a way that makes sense to you, that fits with your value system, that sits, fits with your belief system? Um, and, and I don't care whether you're right or wrong. I don't care whether other people agree with you or not. That's really not the point. The point is here's where you're at. Uh, and really that's the heart

• 2:35:34Speaker 04

  of good therapy, period. Right? It's, you know, good therapy is not, let's look at this external standard and make you conform to it. Uh, good therapy is selfish. Where are you at? Where would you like to be for you? How do we take steps in your life? Uh, it's also true with anxiety and depression, right? Uh, the meds don't fix much.

• 2:35:54AJ Gentile?

  No, they don't.

• 2:35:55Speaker 04

  Uh, and of course now they have that whole line of research coming out where they're saying they've never had a good relationship between anxiety and depression alleviation and psychotropic meds. Not shocked by that. I worked at Psych Ward for two years. Um, but again, if we come back to therapy, removing politics, removing ideology, and certainly removing non-data based interventions are, um, it does come down to let's be selfish. Let's talk about you. Let's talk about what you're experiencing. Let's talk about, are you willing to look at what you're doing? How's that working for you? Right? That's, that's a critical question. But again, introspection.

• 2:36:32AJ Gentile?

  Yeah.

• 2:36:33Speaker 04

  Because you know, rule number one of therapy, if you don't want help, nobody can help you.

• 2:36:39AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 2:36:39Speaker 04

  If you don't wanna look at things and change things and do some work, it's just like physical therapy. If you break a leg, you wanna fix it, that physical therapy is gonna suck. Um, well, unfortunately, therapy has a suckiness component to it because over time, the therapist is gonna have to get you to a point where you're willing to confront uncomfortable things. And, you know, in theory, in a supportive environment where you're not alone and go, okay, now that we've looked at this, what do you think we can do together to make it better? And the whole goal for therapy should be not that you match group A, B, or C. It should be how much have we improved? Your wellbeing on a day-to-day basis? How many techniques and strategies have we given you?

• 2:37:23Speaker 04

  So that, you know, if we can't get rid of it, we can help you mediate it, moderate it, make it, and, and give you back really, because I think a lot of issues with psychology and psychological disorders is that theft of control.

• 2:37:36AJ Gentile?

  That's true.

• 2:37:36Speaker 04

  Human beings need a sense of control and that full circles back to our belief systems. Why do people stick to these belief systems? Cause they're using them to make sense of the world around them.

• 2:37:45AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 2:37:45Speaker 04

  And, and human beings do not like it when they don't have control.

• 2:37:48AJ Gentile?

  No, they don't.

• 2:37:49Speaker 04

  And prediction is a form of control.

• 2:37:52AJ Gentile?

  That's true.

• 2:37:53Speaker 04

  Prediction is a massive form of control. Right? That's the appeal of mainstream religion. Here is one book. The book has a complete set of answers.

• 2:38:01AJ Gentile?

  Yep.

• 2:38:02Speaker 04

  And it gives you a worldview and a map of the universe by which you know what the hell is going on. And.

• 2:38:07AJ Gentile?

  And you know how it ends.

• 2:38:08Speaker 04

  Yeah. And by the way, no judgment there. I'm jealous.

• 2:38:12AJ Gentile?

  Me too.

• 2:38:13Speaker 04

  I'm a questioner. I'm, I'm bored. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm not a Judas. Oh my goodness. I'm, I'm a doubting Thomas, right?

• 2:38:19AJ Gentile?

  Sure.

• 2:38:19Speaker 04

  I'm a believer, but I'm a Thomas. Um, and I envy people.

• 2:38:23AJ Gentile?

  People who know for sure they're going to heaven? God bless them.

• 2:38:26Speaker 04

  And more importantly, I would never want to take that from anybody.

• 2:38:29AJ Gentile?

  Never.

• 2:38:29Speaker 04

  Because.

• 2:38:30AJ Gentile?

  I'd love to have that.

• 2:38:31Speaker 04

  Cause that's what they use to make peace with a world that is not a kind world. Um.

• 2:38:39AJ Gentile?

  Those, and those people are very kind people.

• 2:38:42Speaker 04

  They can be, or sometimes they can be mean and aggressive.

• 2:38:44AJ Gentile?

  They can, but I mean, for the most part, in my experience, people who are very faithful.

• 2:38:48Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 2:38:48AJ Gentile?

  Are very, very nice.

• 2:38:50Speaker 04

  My, my, my hero is my grandmother who had a fourth grade education, was stoic as all get out. If she talked, she had something to say. Otherwise she didn't. Smarter than most people I've ever met in my life. I miss her dearly. She's passed away for, uh, what's it been? 10 years now? 15 years now? Um.

• 2:39:09AJ Gentile?

  Well, she lived a long time.

• 2:39:10Speaker 04

  11 years. Yeah. She made it to 90.

• 2:39:11AJ Gentile?

  She made it to 90.

• 2:39:12Speaker 04

  She made it to 90. Um, and in fact, when I had those experiences back in the day, I'd end up spending a lot of time at my grandma's because my room got a little tainted, right?

• 2:39:19AJ Gentile?

  Of course.

• 2:39:20Speaker 04

  But she was insanely wise. Um.

• 2:39:23AJ Gentile?

  Did you know how lucky you were to have her that long?

• 2:39:26Speaker 04

  Oh yeah. No. No, she's, uh, she's missed.

• 2:39:31AJ Gentile?

  What a gift, man.

• 2:39:35Speaker 04

  But full circle, yep, you had a weird experience.

• 2:39:38AJ Gentile?

  I did.

• 2:39:38Speaker 04

  But here's the other thing, too. I'm throwing this out here.

• 2:39:42AJ Gentile?

  Okay.

• 2:39:43Speaker 04

  Why not engage in some spiritual protection measures? If it works, who cares?

• 2:39:47AJ Gentile?

  It can't hurt.

• 2:39:49Speaker 04

  You know, if it works, who cares?

• 2:39:51AJ Gentile?

  Right, the old Pythagorean.

• 2:39:53Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:39:53AJ Gentile?

  Why not? Couldn't hide?

• 2:39:55Speaker 04

  I mean, you know, Crowley with his heroin, uh, mind-breaking, soul-destroying, uh, history, I definitely believed.

• 2:40:02AJ Gentile?

  He did.

• 2:40:03Speaker 04

  But don't go down that route. Um, but yeah, uh, you know, and that, that, I think sometimes that's where, uh, I'll frustrate my colleagues who are much more skeptical than I am. As they're like, but it can't be, I'm like, does it work? I don't care. You know, it's.

• 2:40:18AJ Gentile?

  The wife will be like, why is there salt and chalk everywhere? What are you, what are you doing? It's like, that's, that's, that situation, you remember, she remembers. This is almost 20 years ago.

• 2:40:25Speaker 04

  Yeah, if you need to put a full-size, you know, Solomon circle with the Hebrew and everything else, and it makes you sleep, but do it.

• 2:40:33AJ Gentile?

  I think she may have even, uh, come back about a week ago, I'll tell that story at some point.

• 2:40:39AJ Gentile?

  Transliminality.

• 2:40:41Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 2:40:42AJ Gentile?

  You have, you have a test on your site. What is, we should plug your site, where do they go to find this test?

• 2:40:50Speaker 04

  IsraeNet.org.

• 2:40:52AJ Gentile?

  That's right, is, so it's Israel without the L.

• 2:40:54Speaker 04

  Yeah, Israe, I-S-R-A-E-N-E-T.org.

• 2:40:57AJ Gentile?

  You need acronym help, man.

• 2:40:59Speaker 04

  I know, I do, I do, it's a problem, I might have a tumor.

• 2:41:03AJ Gentile?

  So this is a survey to see, I guess, how psychic you are?

• 2:41:07Speaker 04

  No, okay, transliminality, and here's where we do go full-blown science, because we've been doing a lot of my loosey-goosey fruity stuff, so let's.

• 2:41:14AJ Gentile?

  Cause you, now, before you explain it, you maxed out on this test, right?

• 2:41:17Speaker 04

  I'm pretty high, yes.

• 2:41:18AJ Gentile?

  All right, so what, so what is this testing?

• 2:41:20Speaker 04

  All right, so transliminality is, um, and, and really, uh, Jim's been the, the majority, uh, validator, he's done the bulk of research for this. I love this variable because it's interesting.

• 2:41:31AJ Gentile?

  Okay.

• 2:41:32Speaker 04

  Transliminal, right? So this is, um, a measure that addresses the extent to which a person has thin psychological boundaries. Okay, so, um, no one would debate at this point, we have a conscious self and an unconscious self. And in a kind of a Freudian vein, we have a nice, thick barrier between the conscious thoughts and all the stuff that we bury in a Freudian sense, or union-wise, you know, put down there, um, that we don't have access to. We also have a pretty thick barrier between our ego or conscious self and the environment around us. People that are highly transliminal are, or high transliminals, have thinner boundaries. So material from the unconscious to the conscious passes more freely, and material from the conscious to the environment and back

• 2:42:18Speaker 04

  go through more freely than the average human being. And what we have found is that transliminality, this kind of thin boundary structure, is very much, in multiple studies, significantly predictive of anomalous experience.

• 2:42:34AJ Gentile?

  It is?

• 2:42:35Speaker 04

  Yes, uh, and we've replicated that with our own scales, it's been done in previous scales, and we've done a, a, a fair amount of research, including previous research I wasn't involved with, that suggests they may be a little bit better at ESP. So.

• 2:42:49AJ Gentile?

  I had a friend growing up who swore that she could see auras, and everyone thought it was nonsense, I don't think it was, I think she could.

• 2:42:55Speaker 04

  It, yeah.

• 2:42:56AJ Gentile?

  Think she could.

• 2:42:56Speaker 04

  Um, now, I'm gonna go, well, let me, let me give the official diatribe, so it's a well-researched scale, it's been ROSH validated, which is a very high level of statistic, it's actually what the SAT uses, right? So, and trust me, the SAT wants to be predictive, um, because they got money.

• 2:43:15Speaker 04

  If the colleges decide to use it again, but that's a side note.

• 2:43:18AJ Gentile?

  They're starting to.

• 2:43:19Speaker 04

  Yeah, like, oh, shock of shocks, you take that away, performance goes down, surprise.

• 2:43:23AJ Gentile?

  Surprise.

• 2:43:25Speaker 04

  Um, but no, the, the, the point of the scale, and it's also been significantly linked to actual temporal lobe lability.

• 2:43:31AJ Gentile?

  It has?

• 2:43:32Speaker 04

  Yes, so it's, it's a, it originally was Michael Thalborn that designed it, uh, Jim has done a lot of revisions on it, taken it a lot further, uh, standardized scale, we use it all the time, because it is reliably predictive of anomalous experience.

• 2:43:45Speaker 04

  In fact, I just put up a survey with another, uh, podcast I did, uh, about a month ago, uh, and we're collecting data on that, we have something like 270 responses. So we're, we're looking at that from a, like, kind of like a podcast listener community, um, and I want to see what that, how that data turns out.

• 2:44:00AJ Gentile?

  Do you want more responses?

• 2:44:02Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah, sure, I'll post, I'll, I'll get it up, I'll get it up on the internet, we'll see what we can do.

• 2:44:05AJ Gentile?

  You got it.

• 2:44:06Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 2:44:07AJ Gentile?

  Woo, can everybody go to IsraelWithoutTheL dot org?

• 2:44:11Speaker 04

  I'm sorry, everybody, for my poor acronym.

• 2:44:13AJ Gentile?

  And see, and see how psychic you are.

• 2:44:15Speaker 04

  In fairness, Institute for the Study of Religious Anomalous Experience, sounds fancy until you're abbreviated, so.

• 2:44:22AJ Gentile?

  Didn't you find that certain people, maybe it was magicians, or something like that, scored low?

• 2:44:27Speaker 04

  Yeah, no, high.

• 2:44:28AJ Gentile?

  They score high?

• 2:44:29Speaker 04

  High transliminals, yes, and in fact, um, I'm of the opinion, right, because transliminals are gonna get more sensory information going back and forth from the unconscious and the conscious, right? And also, they're gonna be more susceptible to environmental effects. And to be clear, very high levels of transliminality can definitely be associated with diagnosable mental illness, right?

• 2:44:50AJ Gentile?

  Oh.

• 2:44:50Speaker 04

  So, uh, you, there's a certain degree of it, like, say, probably one standard deviation, or a little bit, a little bit above the mean to about, eh, one and a half, where you're in kind of a sweet spot of, you are just more sensitive to environmental stimulus, you're gonna be more, um, you're, you're gonna be more responsive, and you're gonna have more reactions from your unconscious to your conscious, you're gonna get feelings and impressions.

• 2:45:15AJ Gentile?

  Well, that makes perfect sense, then.

• 2:45:16Speaker 04

  So I tend to think of it as a bit of a proxy measure for psychicism. I don't, and, and so far, our direct tests have had some, some support for that, some statistically significant responses, um, but with the magicians, they actually went sigh missing, they did significantly worse.

• 2:45:34AJ Gentile?

  They did worse?

• 2:45:35Speaker 04

  Uh, than they ought to, and I had them actually do, um.

• 2:45:38AJ Gentile?

  They did worse than random, if I remember.

• 2:45:40Speaker 04

  Now, in fairness, two caveats to that, one, I had them do an online ESP app, and online digital ESP is not the same as, look at me, I lit candles, I have a circle, right?

• 2:45:51AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 2:45:51Speaker 04

  But I did have, I did have them do one with any ritual of choice, and one without. Um, and yeah, the findings went, I think, were null, were, were null in one condition and sigh missing in the other. So they went worse than they ought to, and I, I can't tell you if that was because, I'd, I'd love to replicate it, but honestly, I'd love to replicate it in a more organic structure, and then the things get real complicated, because now you're talking to lab.

• 2:46:15AJ Gentile?

  Yeah.

• 2:46:15Speaker 04

  And I don't have $200,000 to pay everybody to, right? Uh, although if anybody wants to send me $200,000, anybody? Um, but, uh, the point is, um, they, um, I, I think in organic environments, and this comes back to what I was talking about, like, maybe finding ways to measure, uh, the actual meditation and visualization components involved in ritual magic, because I think we might have a bit of a cookbook recipe for how to enter an altered state of consciousness that might facilitate microPK or ESP.

• 2:46:48AJ Gentile?

  I think Buddhists may agree with you.

• 2:46:50Speaker 04

  Uh, yeah, um, and, and the thing is, it's not that other researchers haven't said, do you have meditation experience? I'm like, well, okay, great, I just measured a bunch of occultists, and by the way, there were mild correlations between daily meditation and visualization exercises, right? So I, it wasn't, I mean, it was significant, it just wasn't an insane variance accounted for, uh, but there was a lot of, of preliminary evidence with these magicians that suggested that, yes, these various techniques that they're actually using, because there's a big separation between, look at me, I'm a wizard, versus, no, no, no, really, I'm practicing X, Y, and Z every other day, and I'm actually doing it, right?

• 2:47:22Speaker 04

  And by the way, that's not a criticism to that community, that's the same with religion, whether we're dealing with exoteric or, uh, exoteric or, I'm sorry, not exoteric, uh, yeah, no, intrinsic and extrinsic religiosity, um, that's true with every group, uh, if you've ever run an organization, there's two or three people you can absolutely rely on, and then a bunch of people that you're, why am I paying you?

• 2:47:40AJ Gentile?

  Everywhere.

• 2:47:41Speaker 04

  Yeah, um, so the point is, when you're dealing with, and that's why I used, uh, Ruin Soup, because a lot of those are really avid practitioners, um, and I got measures, um, but, but, dang it, I lost my train of thought.

• 2:47:53AJ Gentile?

  Well, do you want to be more transliminal, and can you teach it, can you teach yourself to be?

• 2:47:57Speaker 04

  Well, the theory, yes, uh, it's both a state and a trait variable.

• 2:48:00AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 2:48:01Speaker 04

  So, um, you have the, the trait tendency of transliminality, which the data clearly showed magicians were pretty high on compared to, to the population. Um, and the theory is that actually the exercises taught in esotericism are helping to train magicians to control the transliminal tendencies. Uh, because think about it, if a lot of your practice is this altered state of consciousness, where you are trying to get impressions, voices, intuitions, you're going through complex rituals to try and get in contact with a force, a spirit, and energy, okay? Having thin boundary structure, hey, that's a good thing.

• 2:48:37AJ Gentile?

  That is a good thing.

• 2:48:37Speaker 04

  Right, but what if it's uncontrolled? What if it's intrusive? And that's where you move from some subclinical symptomology into, uh-oh, this may actually be problematic for a person's well-being.

• 2:48:49AJ Gentile?

  Could this be your, those possessed women, maybe transliminal, uncontrollable?

• 2:48:55Speaker 04

  I, I think they were moderate transliminals, because I, I think I had them sample at some point.

• 2:49:02Speaker 04

  Um, but transliminality itself is not necessarily a leaning towards psychosis.

• 2:49:06AJ Gentile?

  Okay.

• 2:49:06Speaker 04

  Very high levels of it, I, if I remember correctly, were in fact associated with, uh, schizotypal tendencies.

• 2:49:13AJ Gentile?

  Well, that would make sense.

• 2:49:14Speaker 04

  Yeah, but keep in mind, one of the myths out there is that a person can magically hallucinate and just go back to normal. That, that doesn't happen.

• 2:49:22AJ Gentile?

  That doesn't happen.

• 2:49:23Speaker 04

  No, um, I've, I've been around hundreds of schizophrenics back in the day, and I promise you, uh, the hallucinations are just one bit of a very pervasive set of, of crippling symptoms.

• 2:49:32AJ Gentile?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:49:35Speaker 04

  But yeah, high, high transliminality without any form of moderation or technique to deal with it, because really, what are you dealing with? A lot of sensory information coming from different sources that you're not dealing with well. I would say one model of magic is, how do I control and create rituals to control the impressions that I'm getting? To have a shut-off switch.

• 2:49:55AJ Gentile?

  Well, especially if you're, if you're dealing with trauma, that you kind of want to keep down there.

• 2:49:59Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 2:50:00AJ Gentile?

  It, it's good training to have.

• 2:50:02Speaker 04

  And, and that is, you know, again, we come back to trauma, because a lot of people do have trauma.

• 2:50:06AJ Gentile?

  Sure.

• 2:50:07Speaker 04

  Um, and again, I think in the paranormal community, there is probably a significantly greater amount of trauma than you find in the average population.

• 2:50:15AJ Gentile?

  I agree. Your day job is forensic psychology?

• 2:50:20Speaker 04

  I can't really call myself a forensic person.

• 2:50:23AJ Gentile?

  What do you do during the day? Courtrooms, evaluations?

• 2:50:25Speaker 04

  No, no, actually, I just work with, I have clinical psychologists and we help veterans get disability benefits.

• 2:50:33AJ Gentile?

  Where can we find that online? I'd love to support.

• 2:50:35Speaker 04

  Well, I mean, I work with law firms only. I don't work individually with veterans because, and honestly, as a pitch, we recommend veterans who need to work with the VA. I wholeheartedly recommend they just get a lawyer because it's easier.

• 2:50:48AJ Gentile?

  Really?

• 2:50:49Speaker 04

  So, we work with lawyers to help do assessments, to help get better ratings. So, we work only through lawyers. And that's, you really have to because there's a whole lot of work with VA processing.

• 2:51:02AJ Gentile?

  So, you're trying to get, what, I guess PTSD diagnosed so that they can get help?

• 2:51:07Speaker 04

  Yeah, we only do, we only deal with psychological disorders. We don't do with medical.

• 2:51:12Speaker 04

  And again, no direct referrals. Like, there's no point in contacting me because all of the, there's a whole lot of steps before you get to a clinical psychologist's assessment. And I'm not a clinical psychologist, right? I have clinical psychologists that work for me. I help with the research and the paperwork and the submission.

• 2:51:27AJ Gentile?

  Well, how do the lawyers help?

• 2:51:28Speaker 04

  Well, the lawyers actually are proficient in VA law. So, rather than a veteran trying to tackle all the paperwork required

• 2:51:37AJ Gentile?

  Yeah, good luck.

• 2:51:38Speaker 04

  to get disability through the VA, the lawyers take it on for them. And it's kind of like a disability claim.

• 2:51:44AJ Gentile?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:51:45Speaker 04

  And in my, from my personal opinion, it's almost always better to have representation just because the mountains of paperwork and all of the appeals and the, and you know, most people don't have the time to read the 25 books necessarily, necessary to understand what all this paperwork entails. I really think it's just better off to get a lawyer.

• 2:52:03AJ Gentile?

  You're 100% right. I'm glad you said it 100% right. To all the vets listening, that's how to deal with the VA is through representation. It's the only way.

• 2:52:12Speaker 04

  Yeah, and I mean, don't get me wrong, I don't hate the VA or anything, but again, it's a complicated procedure. You know, it's government, a lot of laws.

• 2:52:18AJ Gentile?

  Yeah.

• 2:52:18Speaker 04

  So, it's just better to get representation. Because again, that away, it's taken care of. Because then they contact you and go, hey buddy, we need to do an interview. Hey, this is happening. Here's what we need to do next. And you don't have all that stress and trauma of trying to be a person working that large bureaucratic system.

• 2:52:35AJ Gentile?

  Can the vets afford this?

• 2:52:37Speaker 04

  Yeah, actually, because just like disability law, the lawyers don't charge until after the whole thing's settled. And then there's back pay that occurs, right? Because there's your date of claim. And it's true with disability too, right? And so, whatever your date of claim is, however long it takes for you to get accepted, you get that chunk of change and the lawyers get compensated by getting a little bit off the back end.

• 2:52:59AJ Gentile?

  Sure. What's the name of this organization?

• 2:53:02Speaker 04

  Oh, you mean the law firms?

• 2:53:04AJ Gentile?

  Yeah, how can the vets get help?

• 2:53:08Speaker 04

  Woods and Woods would be, would be a good one.

• 2:53:12AJ Gentile?

  Woods and Woods.

• 2:53:14Speaker 04

  Also, National Vet Help.

• 2:53:17AJ Gentile?

  We have a lot of vets listening.

• 2:53:19Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, save yourself the drama.

• 2:53:22AJ Gentile?

  Totally agree.

• 2:53:27AJ Gentile?

  Last question.

• 2:53:30Speaker 04

  Is it, is it really?

• 2:53:31AJ Gentile?

  Really, last question. Everyone go get ghosted. This is on Amazon, right?

• 2:53:36Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's on Amazon.

• 2:53:37AJ Gentile?

  But Amazon Get Ghosted, you're gonna love it. Right now, there's someone, there's thousands of people who, like me, are dealing with, with trauma, but not handling it as well as I did.

• 2:53:51AJ Gentile?

  Advice, what can they do to deal with it?

• 2:53:53Speaker 04

  So, when you say trauma, are you referring to like, trauma related to maybe some spiritual?

• 2:53:58AJ Gentile?

  Whether it's night hag, night terrors, sleepwalking, they just can't get, they're you're afraid to go to sleep for a little while.

• 2:54:07Speaker 04

  Sure. Okay, so noting, I am not licensed or a clinician, but from

• 2:54:14AJ Gentile?

  But you could talk like a friend.

• 2:54:15Speaker 04

  Yeah, and also saying, but I do have a lot of clinically adjacent experience. The first thing is proving it is irrelevant.

• 2:54:25Speaker 04

  I've seen a lot of people who are like, but if I don't get this documentation and if somebody doesn't come and say, this is real. Now, by the way, that can be dangerous in the sense of every night, 15 demons come to me and fairies, you know, like, okay, maybe you need to go talk to somebody, right? So, barring a tendency towards psychosis, I don't think that proving it is actually the best thing for mental health. I think instead, you need to maybe do a little bit of therapy shopping.

• 2:54:55Speaker 04

  You know, because again, I'm not gonna, I'm not critiquing therapy, but all doctors are not good doctors. All therapists are not good therapists.

• 2:55:03AJ Gentile?

  True.

• 2:55:03Speaker 04

  All, everything are not good everything. All teachers are not good teachers.

• 2:55:08AJ Gentile?

  Even chemistry is important to the therapist.

• 2:55:09Speaker 04

  Yeah, and you know, honestly, the, you know, BetterHelp and the other online therapy, you know, it makes it easy now. And so, you may have to do some shopping, but I think you should be talking to someone. And I think the goal should be engaging in safe, appropriate behaviors, right? That help you cope and feel better.

• 2:55:32Speaker 04

  No one, there is no version of psychology where feeling like a victim is a good thing.

• 2:55:40Speaker 04

  You know, when you steal power from an individual, and there's all sorts of studies that demonstrate this, when you, when you take away your sense of autonomy, your sense of power and choice, when you feel victimized, that's not a good psychological state to be in. It's not healthy for the human being. I think of learned helplessness back in the day where they shocked the dogs to the point in the cage where they no longer even tried. But, but this is, and this is gonna sound a little bit like a self-help book, you're never truly a victim. You always have choices. They may not be good choices, but you always have choices. And if that means finding a therapist or a support group where, if nothing else, you

• 2:56:25Speaker 04

  can just practically say, okay, whether it's ridiculous or not, or whether someone else would approve of this or not, if it's safe and it's not dangerous, what can I do to make me feel better about this? That's what you should be doing.

• 2:56:41Speaker 04

  You know, again, your personal experiences, if they're traumatic, are your personal experiences. And you have the autonomy and the right to confront those in a, in hopefully a helpful way. And again, get consultation, you know? Get a therapist. Talk with them about what steps could I take? You know, just anxiety, EMDR works pretty well.

• 2:57:02AJ Gentile?

  EMDR?

• 2:57:03Speaker 04

  Yeah, I can't even remember what it stands for. Essentially, faking rapid eye movement.

• 2:57:07AJ Gentile?

  Really?

• 2:57:08Speaker 04

  Yes, that you do in your stage four sleep. For some reason, tends to help people de-lodge anxiety.

• 2:57:16AJ Gentile?

  That's interesting.

• 2:57:17Speaker 04

  Well, because if you think about like what anxiety is, it's a persistent state of, of fear that you can't, it's broken tape, right? It keeps replaying. It's, you know, it's not rational.

• 2:57:28AJ Gentile?

  You know it's not rational.

• 2:57:30Speaker 04

  But it keeps hitting you. You can't seem to get rid of it. EMDR seems to help some people, just spending two minutes, closing your eyes and doing that back and forth eye motion.

• 2:57:39AJ Gentile?

  I'll go through three days where I'm just living on cortisol and it sucks.

• 2:57:42Speaker 04

  Yeah, there's meditation techniques. You know, you don't have to go into esoteric meditation. There's a whole lot of studies showing that meditation will help with some panic and in some cases, even alleviate some PTSD symptoms.

• 2:57:55AJ Gentile?

  What would your grandmother say?

• 2:57:57Speaker 04

  Pray about it.

• 2:57:59AJ Gentile?

  Say pray about it.

• 2:58:00Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, grandma would say pray about it. And grandma would be like, well, what are you gonna go out and do about it? You know, that's something I think that is missing from our culture nowadays, which is you still get to make choices.

• 2:58:13Speaker 04

  You still get to make choices. And even if they're bad choices, eventually you'll come to some options that aren't bad choices. Because, you know, this is certainly my personal perspective.

• 2:58:25Speaker 04

  The world has suffering in it and none of us are going to escape that. Not all of it.

• 2:58:32Speaker 04

  And in kind of a broader philosophical perspective, we wouldn't like the world if we did alleviate suffering. Because for any grizzled individual that you've ever talked to with wisdom, they'll, they will say, that sucked, but I learned some of my most valuable life-changing lessons through that.

• 2:58:52AJ Gentile?

  100% true.

• 2:58:53Speaker 04

  I'm not, and by the way, I'm not justifying what happened to someone, any way, shape or form. Like, bad things happen to people and it's not fair.

• 2:59:00Speaker 04

  But I think when we, whether it's paranormal or otherwise, we can't let people take our ability to choose and make choices.

• 2:59:10Speaker 04

  And if we remember that and we have agency again, you know, work, it's work and it's effort, there is no magic pill, despite what, you know, Pfizer might tell you, there is no magic pill. But you know, if you've had a series of terrifying paranormal experiences, then make yourself be motivated to learn more about it and learn possible techniques that you can use to take control back over the agency that you feel was taken from you.

• 2:59:39AJ Gentile?

  Well said. Dr. Brian Lee, thank you for coming in today. It's been fun. Everybody. That was Dr. Brian Lee. He said he won't die on the hill of his own EMF data until somebody else replicates it. So, I went looking. Nobody has, yet. But it's in print. In 2013, he and Kay Owen published the first study in the Journal of Parapsychology. A house had no electricity and the electromagnetic field still wiggled before weird things happened. Two more studies found the same pattern, both his. He told you that before I could, which is my favorite kind of guest. Now, the rectory in Cincinnati, Brian says a teammate went blank and fought her way out of a saltwater circle he drew around her. When she got out, she said, I broke your circle. Now, the possession, I can't check.

• 3:00:24AJ Gentile?

  The building, I can. Ghost Adventures shot there in 2012. Brian told the owners to close it. And last I could find, the current owner was turning it into an Airbnb. Hard pass. I'm not a complete believer, but Brian debunked his own haunted house backstory and published anyway. That's a believer I'll listen to all day long. His book is Ghosted on Amazon and his institute is at israenet.org. That's Israel without the L. And everything I mentioned is linked down below. Until next time, be safe, be kind, and know that you are appreciated.

• 3:01:17AJ Gentile?

  A secret code inside the Bible said I was. I love my UFOs and paranormal fun as well as music, songs singing like I should. But then another conspiracy theory becomes the truth, my friends. And it never ends, no, it never ends.

• 3:01:51AJ Gentile?

  I fear the crackhead and got stuck inside Mel's home with MKO drugs. I'm being only too aware. Did Stanley Kubrick fake the moon landing alone on a film set? Were the shadows people there? The Roswell aliens just fought the smiling man, I'm told. And his name was Cole. And I can't believe I'm dancing with the fish. Head to fish on Thursday nights with AJ2. And one more time for me all through the night. All I ever wanted was to just hear the truth.

• 3:02:35AJ Gentile?

  So one more time for me all through the night.

• 3:02:57AJ Gentile?

  The Mothman sightings and the solar storms still come to have got the secret city underground. Mysterious number stations, planets circle to Project Stargate and what the dark watchers found. Then a simulation, don't you worry though. The black nights had a lighted tone to me so I can't believe I'm dancing with the fish. Head to fish on Thursday nights with AJ2. And one more time for me all through the night. All I ever wanted was to just hear the truth.

• 3:03:41AJ Gentile?

  So one more time for me all through the night. Head to fish on Thursday nights with AJ2. And one more time for me all through the night. All I ever wanted was to just hear the truth. So one more time for me all through the night. Girlie loves to dance. Girlie loves to dance. Girlie loves to dance on the dance floor because she is a camel.

• 3:04:25AJ Gentile?

  And camels love to dance when the feeling is right on waste in time. Girlie loves to dance. Girlie loves to dance.

• 3:04:51Speaker 00

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• 3:05:15Speaker 01

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• 3:05:38Speaker 06

  Where some see heroes and others see egos. Bloomberg sees the era of billionaire athletes. While others follow the noise, we follow the money. Learn more at Bloomberg.com.