470: Mark Malkoff—Love Johnny Carson

Johnny Carson didn't just host The Tonight Show—he defined late-night television. In this episode, Mike talks with comedian and pop-culture historian Mark Malkoff https://markmalkoff.com/, author of the book Love Johnny Carson https://www.amazon.com/Love-Johnny-Carson-Obsessive-Journey/dp/0593472551/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&dib_tag=se&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.hY51shzKVKt7JPEFs5v6exSDZmees15SEU3ZRIfDnt4.a9YsNvUyhL0Lh0g7HrYLdMTPAxqWAFchvA6oUvTfmZA&qid=1770664488&sr=8-1, about Carson's quiet influence, off-camera generosity, and the unlikely ways his legacy still shapes comedy today. It's a short history lesson, a love letter to show business, and a reminder that some icons never really leave the stage.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Mike Rowe?

  And here we go again. It's me, Mike Rowe. It's The Way I Heard It. My guest today is Mark Malkoff. If you don't recognize his name, you're certain to recognize the name at the center of the terrific book he has just written, as given away by the title of this episode, Love Johnny Carson.

• 0:23Speaker 01

  Which just happens to be the title of the book.

• 0:25Mike Rowe?

  Of the book. It works out great. This kid, Mark, he does love him some Johnny Carson, man.

• 0:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, he does. And he's not old enough to like have really lived through the heyday of him.

• 0:36Mike Rowe?

  Yeah. And yet, he has written a book that I'm just going to shamelessly recommend right now, here in the preamble. I'll do it again in an hour and a half from now when we wrap up our conversation. But I mean it. This book... There are a lot of books out there about Johnny Carson. This one is different. This guy, Mark, he's a stand-up by trade. But he had an obsession with Johnny Carson ever since he was a kid.

• 1:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06Mike Rowe?

  You know, his dad loved him. His family loved him. And like millions of people, it was just a big bowl of warm milk for him every night before he went to bed.

• 1:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15Mike Rowe?

  And unlike most normal people, Mark never got over it. And so, he decided a couple of years ago that he was gonna scratch what itched and went on a series of in-person interviews with over 400 people, most of whom you've heard of.

• 1:35Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:36Mike Rowe?

  To get at the nub of the thing, to answer the question, "Who is Johnny Carson?"

• 1:42Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:42Mike Rowe?

  And holy crap, this is interesting.

• 1:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, and he really nailed it. And he mentions a lot of these names as he talks about it. But the book, like you said, for me, I'm listening to the book and what stuck out to me was that it like immediately took me back to when I was like 12 years old, sitting in front of the TV, late at night, up later than maybe I should be, watching, you know, people like Flip Wilson and Johnny Carson. Oh my god, the devil made me do it.

• 2:12Mike Rowe?

  The devil made me do it. You know what? Here's the thing. The book works on its own. Um, you'll hear me liken it to drinking from a fire hose because there's so much content in it.

• 2:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:23Mike Rowe?

  And it's all so much fun. But under the surface, there is this other thing. And it's the thing you just talked about.

• 2:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:32Mike Rowe?

  It's the shared memories of this show helmed for 30 years by a guy. Who, I don't know that there's anyone that's ever been more famous, really, than Johnny Carson.

• 2:48Speaker 01

  Fair.

• 2:49Mike Rowe?

  And he lived at a time when we only had three or four broadcast choices, right?

• 2:55Speaker 01

  At a time when, you know, the whole country was watching one of three things.

• 2:59Mike Rowe?

  Right.

• 2:59Speaker 01

  Every night.

• 3:00Mike Rowe?

  And so, we're galvanized. Our memories are informed in a universal way by The Tonight Show.

• 3:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:10Mike Rowe?

  What's interesting about Mark, you know, and I called him a kid, he's not a kid, he's in his 40s, you know, but he, he just went for it. And I think mainly to amuse himself. Just tried to get this monkey off his back by getting people to answer the question, you know, who was the real Johnny Carson? And what comes out is such an easy to digest, honest, love letter.

• 3:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:35Mike Rowe?

  To a time, and a guy, and a sensibility, and in some ways to the country. You know, because it really touches on a lot of things that as you read, you're gonna chuckle, and smile, and nod, and say, I remember that.

• 3:50Speaker 01

  I remember that. Yeah, it's like a time machine.

• 3:52Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 3:53Speaker 01

  Right?

• 3:53Mike Rowe?

  Yep. And look, make no mistake, that's what all good books are. They are time machines. They can transport you, you know, sometimes to a fake world, Game of Thrones. Uh, you know, Lord of the Rings. They can, they can take you anywhere. This one takes you to a place that you'll actually remember. You were actually there.

• 4:15Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 4:15Mike Rowe?

  You shared a lot of this and maybe some of it you've forgotten about. Some of it you've probably never heard before. But all of it is really fun. What a great guest. Kudos to you, Mr. Producer, for finding him and convincing him to fly out here to do this.

• 4:32Speaker 01

  It was super hard, super hard to get him, to nail him down.

• 4:35Mike Rowe?

  Yeah, you had to answer the phone and everything. You know what? You take a break while we take a quick break. But when we come back, it's Mark Malkoff. The book is called Love Johnny Carson. And like all fine tones, this one lives up to its name.

• 4:57Mike Rowe?

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• 5:41Mike Rowe?

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• 6:24Mike Rowe?

  This is True Mark. You flew all the way in from New York just for this?

• 6:27Speaker 02

  I did.

• 6:28Mike Rowe?

  I'm so honored, man.

• 6:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm going. Are you kidding me?

• 6:31Mike Rowe?

  No, I'm not.

• 6:31Speaker 02

  I'm excited.

• 6:32Mike Rowe?

  I bent down last night to pick up my dog and something in my knee clicked and it really hurt.

• 6:39Speaker 02

  Oh, I'm sorry to hear that.

• 6:40Mike Rowe?

  And I was about to go out and do a bunch of stuff and I decided it'd be best to sit still. Chuck had sent me your book. It arrived the night before. So because my knee hurt, I sat down and I read three quarters of your book.

• 6:53Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 6:54Mike Rowe?

  And then I finished it just as you walked in.

• 6:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, walked into your office as you were finishing it.

• 6:59Mike Rowe?

  Actually, that's my partner's office. I don't have anything here.

• 7:02Speaker 02

  You're gonna work on that.

• 7:03Mike Rowe?

  I'm like a carpetbagger. I come down once a month to do this thing. But look, I'm taking the scenic route to say you're not the only guy to write a book on Johnny Carson.

• 7:14Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 7:14Mike Rowe?

  But you're the only guy to write one like this.

• 7:16Speaker 02

  Thank you. Yes, that's true. I've been very fortunate.

• 7:20Mike Rowe?

  This is Chuck. You read some? Oh, yeah, yeah. I'm a third of the way through. Drinking from a fire hose. Yeah. Am I right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like the stories just keep coming at you really quick. So this guy Mark, who's sitting across from me, he's a comedian by trade?

• 7:34Speaker 02

  Yes. Yeah, comedian, writer, podcaster.

• 7:36Mike Rowe?

  Okay. You did something very savvy because as you know, you're in a very noisy world. You are in a knife fight in a phone booth.

• 7:44Speaker 02

  Oh, man, I didn't know that. I know what you're saying, yeah.

• 7:47Mike Rowe?

  So what have you done? You have identified the object of your obsession, affection from your youth. And you have interviewed everybody in this town, it seems.

• 7:59Speaker 02

  Over 400.

• 8:00Mike Rowe?

  400 interviews. And you've gotten what really amounts to a kind of compendium about who Johnny Carson was.

• 8:10Speaker 02

  It was an accident, though.

• 8:12Mike Rowe?

  But how many great things are accidental?

• 8:16Speaker 02

  Listen, I follow my curiosity. You're a curious person. Johnny Carson was curious. I thought I'd sit down with maybe a few people at the most to get my questions answered. And it turned out, everybody wanted to talk about him. Friends, people that had never talked publicly, all wanted to tell.

• 8:30Mike Rowe?

  Why?

• 8:31Speaker 02

  I don't know why.

• 8:31Mike Rowe?

  Well, let's get into it, though.

• 8:33Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 8:33Mike Rowe?

  Because, I mean, look, I have a theory about why I would want to.

• 8:36Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 8:37Mike Rowe?

  As a viewer. But I don't think this book works 20 years ago.

• 8:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, you're probably right.

• 8:43Mike Rowe?

  He had to die, and he had to be gone for a while. And then, the country, and the town, and the industry, had to like, do some sort of gut check to start to think, really, how do we feel about this guy? And really, what did he do that changed things?

• 9:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, and how much people miss him today. I mean, all the late-night hosts still talk about Carson. I mean, over 3 billion YouTube views on this man, still the gold standard in everybody's mind. And we're still talking about him. He hasn't been on the air in 3 decades.

• 9:14Mike Rowe?

  Why you? And before you answer.

• 9:16Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 9:17Mike Rowe?

  Let me just make sure the... This is the last...

• 9:19Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 9:20Mike Rowe?

  Not the last compliment, but the last point I want to make before we really dive in. Your book starts with a simple question. Who was Johnny Carson?

• 9:28Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 9:28Mike Rowe?

  And every page answers it to some degree or another. So, I mean, I don't want to just go through your whole book, but rather than ask you who Johnny Carson was, let me ask you why he's stuck in your craw, to the degree he has.

• 9:45Speaker 02

  For somebody that was that famous, that dominated American culture for 30 years, that was that iconic, there were very few stories about what went on behind the scenes at the show. I didn't know I'd get into Johnny's life, but I had all these questions. From what was it like being on the show? Who was holding the curtain open for Johnny? I was with that guy, by the way, and...

• 10:04Mike Rowe?

  What's his name?

• 10:04Speaker 02

  Irving Davis. And Johnny would be, because, you know, I had a day job with Letterman. And Letterman, before the show, nobody talks to him, before he needs silence. Johnny's back there, joking with everybody, smoking a cigarette, up until here's Johnny. So, it was just to hear those stories, like what actually went on behind the scenes.

• 10:22Mike Rowe?

  See, that, that's such... I mean, I am so interested in process.

• 10:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:29Mike Rowe?

  Right? You know, every now and then I'll go out and impersonate a speaker and I'll be backstage and there'll be somebody queuing me. And like, little moments like that, people don't think about. But it's a very conscious choice to decide, am I gonna go away? Am I gonna sit quietly and like, really get in my head and collect my thoughts? Or am I going to pretend that I'm just walking into a room to talk to some friends?

• 10:53Speaker 02

  He would protect his energy. He would only get to the studio maybe an hour or two before. Letterman and a lot of people were there all day. Only because he knew if he was around people, it would affect his energy. I mean, Mike, he was doing an hour and forty-five minutes in New York. And then it went down to ninety minutes, eventually sixty minutes. The staff said when he would arrive an hour or two before the studio, sparks would be flying off of him because he'd be so excited. One of them said when you shook hands with him, it was like shaking hands with a nuclear reactor during the show. I mean, he completely paced himself, like a quarterback starting on Sunday. I mean, the energy was everything. No lunches, that was his rule on a tape day, would take away his energy. So he saved it for the show.

• 11:31Mike Rowe?

  Well, it took a toll. I know New York was what, sixty-two to seventy-two?

• 11:35Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 11:35Mike Rowe?

  Now, he was a young man.

• 11:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:37Mike Rowe?

  He was living, as Hemingway said, all the way up.

• 11:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, there were some lives here and there. There were some tough, tough nights that Ed McMahon helped get Johnny home.

• 11:47Mike Rowe?

  Yeah. But the energy thing is, is so interesting. It's, I think most people can understand why it would take so much energy to keep a ninety-minute live show on the air. What they don't understand is how he was able to make it so effortless. And what a head fake it is for people to go in and, oh, I'm just gonna guest host.

• 12:11Speaker 02

  That was it. People thought it was easy and people would call up Johnny and said, I had no idea. Carson would watch the show at home. He said he'd watch it sometimes. He would study his performance. He'd be home watching Arnold Palmer trying to guest host the Tonight Show or Kirk Douglas and just be cracking up that they would think and people... Even comedians like Chevy Chase in 1986 called Johnny and said, "I had no idea how hard this was. I'd never done a monologue." And then, a few years later, I guess Chevy Chase forgot, because he did his own show on Fox, all 26 episodes.

• 12:40Mike Rowe?

  Oops.

• 12:40Speaker 02

  Johnny actually tried to talk Chevy out of it, because they were poker buddies, Steve Martin, Barry Diller, Carl Reiner, a bunch of them, and said, "Chevy, you really want to do this, five nights a week?"

• 12:50Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 12:51Speaker 02

  But it was brutal. I mean, people, one of his competitors, Carson's competitor, said it was more exhausting than shoveling snow for eight hours, doing a 90-minute show. I mean, that's what he, that was his, and Shanley, same thing. Gary Shanley says it's murder.

• 13:02Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 13:03Speaker 02

  I mean, yeah.

• 13:03Mike Rowe?

  But, you know, for the audience, the last thing you want to do, I don't care if you're watching your favorite rock band, or your favorite comedian, or a talk show, you don't want to see the technique.

• 13:15Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 13:15Mike Rowe?

  You don't want to see the effort.

• 13:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:17Mike Rowe?

  You don't want to see the sweat. Really, I mean, that, to me, is what stage presence really is. Your ability, especially through a camera, to make the viewer comfortable.

• 13:29Speaker 02

  Listen, Frank Sinatra is one of the coolest, in terms of performers going out there. You don't see him break a sweat. And his daughter told me, before he hosted The Tonight Show and during his concerts, he'd be backstage, almost getting sick from nerves. I mean, everybody's different, but again, like so many pros, he walks out there and hits his mark, and he's Frank Sinatra. But before that, whatever it takes to get you to that place. I mean, and some people really tortured themselves.

• 13:53Mike Rowe?

  What did he mean to the country, in your estimation, when he was at the height of his power?

• 14:00Speaker 02

  When he was 25% of all of NBC's profits, and people were watching every night as they went to sleep with this guy, I think it was stability. I mean, there were, whatever was going on in America, there were so many tragedies. The guy was always a steady rock. In 1968, especially, I mean, he was friends with Robert Kennedy, with Bobby Kennedy. They lived in the same building. Bobby Kennedy would go to Carson's office. And suddenly, Bobby Kennedy's assassinated, and Johnny, a couple nights later, does no monologue, and no curtain, and he just has, it's like, four or five people, and they just talk about his friend Bobby Kennedy. A few months prior to that, Martin Luther King Jr. loses his life, and Carson comes out. A couple of days later and just talks about Martin Luther King shows a clip with he had just been on with Harry Belafonte, his guest host, which was Carson was responsible for

• 14:45Speaker 02

  that. And they did a tribute with Sammy Davis Jr. And Diana Ross and during all those times, Vietnam, Carson was as a constant and people would go to him.

• 14:54Mike Rowe?

  And how often was NBC up his ass to, I mean, I know when Belafonte came on, they they must have been horrified.

• 15:01Speaker 02

  They were scared. Carson calls up Mr. Belafonte and said, I want you to guest host for a week and he's like, you know what this means? Carson said, oh, I do. Because Carson, you wouldn't know, you wouldn't know Carson's politics, but he was very much against the Vietnam War and was more in line with Belafonte than not. And Mr. Belafonte had all these people at NBC who were terrified. They said, okay, okay, you're gonna have Martin Luther King on, Mr. Belafonte, but you're not gonna talk about race, are you? And he said, no, we're gonna talk about opera. And it was all these people that were so scared, but Carson was really good about putting people in the chair that with different opinions. I mean, he had everyone from Billy Graham to Madeleine Murray O'Hare, the most famous atheist. So he wasn't afraid of really strong ideas, but he really did like to put people that

• 15:44Speaker 02

  shared his politics, he'd like to give this seat. But again, we didn't know how he voted. And he was very careful about that.

• 15:51Mike Rowe?

  My memory of it, which is just, you know, one man's memory, but he, like, you knew you weren't gonna get a lecture, you knew you weren't gonna get a sermon, he wasn't gonna shake his finger at you, but you also knew that he had beliefs and ideas and opinions. But it just felt first and foremost, beyond anything else, he was there to entertain me.

• 16:14Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 16:15Mike Rowe?

  You know, he wanted me to laugh, but at the same time, he was living in the same world as I was. And so he kind of knew when to hold a mirror up and to be an avatar for the country. And he knew, like, he just knew where the line was. And I just make that point because it sure, it feels to me like his contemporaries today maybe don't.

• 16:41Speaker 02

  It's just a very different time. And Carson thought, these people are going to bed with me at 11:30, they want to be entertained. Person before me, Jack Parr, biggest thing in TV, controversy, some was real, some manufactured. He'd suddenly cry, Carson.

• 16:56Speaker 02

  I said, "No, this is entertainment." And in the beginning, people, the critics, Carson's dull, he's bland, and it really took, and there were rumors he was gonna get replaced for two years, and, I mean, the guy didn't have, couldn't get his own bathroom at NBC in his office, he had no leverage. So, once he got leverage and he got ownership of the show in 1980, he let NBC have it, and rightfully so.

• 17:16Mike Rowe?

  So, go back.

• 17:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:17Mike Rowe?

  I bet most people don't, certainly don't remember, because it was a long time ago, but he started on a, on a talk show.

• 17:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, he started, he had a game show, Who Do You Trust?

• 17:28Mike Rowe?

  Yeah, that's what I mean, a game show.

• 17:29Speaker 02

  And then before that, he had a local show on NBC in Los Angeles, and then Red Skeleton, this gentleman of a very popular national show, had a concussion and said, "You have to get that Johnny Carson boy." Carson, it was his biggest break, within two hours, he was in front of a national audience for the first time hosting a show, and, I mean, this is a guy who, from the time he was 14 in Nebraska, had been performing. I mean, he'd been doing magic, non-stop, then shrill-iquism. I mean, Dick Havitt told me, he met Carson when he was 12 years old. He was a junior magician and met him in a church basement in Nebraska. Carson was in his early twenties, still a star for Nebraska, he was on the radio. And, um, yeah, this guy could have easily stayed in Nebraska and had a great career, but his ambitions, I mean, when he graduated, the day he graduated, when he was 17, he graduated early,

• 18:14Speaker 02

  hitchhiked to Los Angeles. First thing he does, gets a star map, goes to Jack Benny's house and hangs up Benny's house, and he's waiting for Benny to come out, which he didn't. Then he goes to get, uh, he enlisted in the Navy, but wasn't officially in the Navy, gets, uh, goes to the uniform store, dresses as an naval officer and goes to the USO shows. Um, it's everyone from Orson Welles, he dances with Merlina Dietrich. Um, and then he did get arrested, because they asked for his papers, and he did not have them, and his aunt and uncle had to bail him out, but...

• 18:40Mike Rowe?

  But his enthusiasm...

• 18:43Speaker 02

  Yes, for performing.

• 18:44Mike Rowe?

  Right.

• 18:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:45Mike Rowe?

  And his basic curiosity as a human seemed to inform virtually everything he did. I mean, I don't know how, I think anybody can fake anything for a while.

• 18:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:59Mike Rowe?

  I don't think you can pretend to be a curious person for 30 years.

• 19:08Mike Rowe?

  Here's a crazy idea. What if there was an academy out there that paid students to learn instead of the other way around? Specifically, men and women who want to work in the skilled trades. And what if this academy not only paid for your training, but also covered all the expenses associated with your training, like travel and food and lodging? And finally, what if this academy guaranteed you a job at the end of the training period? Well, that's exactly what's happening at America's Workforce Academy by Meta. This is a five-week, highly immersive pre-apprenticeship program that gets you all the necessary certifications you'll need to start a career in the skilled trades immediately.

• 19:50Mike Rowe?

  I'm talking about AI-proof, six-figure jobs, helping to build out the new infrastructure that our economy is depending on. Electricians, plumbers, HVAC techs, welders, fiber optic technicians, these jobs, they are all in demand like never before. And again, every graduate of America's Workforce Academy is guaranteed a job on a Meta website. I first announced this program a few months ago, and I have been watching the response ever since. It's extraordinary. This is a nationwide, unprecedented fast track to a long-term career in a skilled trade. If you, or your spouse, or your kid, or your grandkid are looking for a straight path

• 20:34Mike Rowe?

  into a career with no cost at all, check out the opportunities for yourself at meta.com/america'sworkforceacademy. That's meta.com/america'sworkforceacademy.

• 20:47Speaker 02

  He didn't want to have dinner with the A-list celebrities afterwards. It was always astronomer Carl Sagan, it was Jim Fowler, zoologist, who went on the show a lot. There was a gentleman for population control, Dr. Paul Ehrlich, and those are the people...

• 20:59Mike Rowe?

  Population bomb.

• 21:00Speaker 02

  Yes. And Carson, this was a book that nobody was buying, and he went on Carson's show, and it sold millions of copies.

• 21:07Mike Rowe?

  Yep.

• 21:08Speaker 02

  I mean, Carson, he would always call it the author slot. He'd be falling asleep in New York, and there would be these people that would come on. I mean, it was really revolutionary people, like Ellen Peck. Came on, I think in 1970, maybe the late 60s. And it was a book about how women don't necessarily have to have kids and be married. And Carson said to the audience, it was like the audience wanted to attack her. But he wasn't afraid to put new ideas out there.

• 21:32Mike Rowe?

  Well, look, this goes back, the thing that I like about it, your book, I mean, is that it functions as a portal into a lot of different lives, which The Tonight Show did as well. You know, it just gave us a little look. It was like the shallow end of the pool. And of course, today, if you want to get in the deeper end, you can pick up your second screen.

• 21:51Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 21:52Mike Rowe?

  And go deep. Now, you mentioned Ehrlich, and this struck me too when I read it in the book. Paul Ehrlich, for those of you who aren't up on 50-year-old bestsellers, wrote a book called The Population Bomb. And Carson gave him a lot of press. The book sold like crazy.

• 22:06Speaker 02

  18 appearances, people would call in with death threats, people would write in with death threats. People were, and Carson wasn't afraid of it. He kept putting him on because Carson silently agreed with him.

• 22:15Mike Rowe?

  Didn't want a bodyguard, but carried a gun.

• 22:17Speaker 02

  Yes, nickel-plated gun. He really tried, I mean, he drove himself, Ed McMahon had the limousine, here's Ed license plate. Thought it was ridiculous. Ed, Ed would be, wouldn't have a desk, he'd have a Barca lounge. And he'd be getting the manicures and pedicures, and Carson's just rolling his eyes. I mean, this was a guy from Nebraska who was bringing a brown paper sack lunch. And was just as middle America as you can get. Again, didn't want the bodyguard, but did, never had to use the gun, I have to say.

• 22:44Mike Rowe?

  Well, that's good.

• 22:45Speaker 02

  But Ehrlich, you're talking Ehrlich.

• 22:46Mike Rowe?

  Well, so Ehrlich, now, that book had a huge impact on Bill Maher. Bill Maher today has been on a tear for years, talking about the fact that there are just too many people on the planet. Now, in the fullness of time, you've got Elon Musk and a long list of other people who are credibly saying that the greatest threat we face as a species is the population collapse. I'm reading this, you know, and all the different things I read, and I'm thinking, what would Carson say today? If he were alive and saw that book essentially being debunked in real time? To be that confident, I'm not talking about John, I'm talking about Paul, but to be that confident and that wrong about a thing that consequential?

• 23:33Mike Rowe?

  Maybe that's why we die. Because you don't want to live long enough to see just how wrong you can be.

• 23:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, that was Johnny's thing. He put people with like theories and hypotheses. Some were true, some weren't. But he wasn't afraid to really put the stuff out there. And I mean, people, the narrative is, is this guy wasn't political. At the same time, Nancy Reagan called the show twice and demanded jokes stop.

• 23:56Mike Rowe?

  Because Ronnie doesn't dye his hair.

• 23:57Speaker 02

  Yes. And then Johnny, the next night, said somebody very influential called and phoned me. I'm not going to say who. And I know for a fact now that Ronnie does not dye his hair, but he does bleach his face. That was, and then the second time was in the 80s, early 80s, when Johnny and Saturday Night Live were doing drug jokes and Nancy Reagan personally phoned and said, no more drug jokes. I'm going to launch Just Say No, and they stopped doing it. So, I mean, I mean, everyone from Jimmy Carter's mom was upset with jokes to the board administration. Whoever was in power, Johnny was going to give it to them. And again, you couldn't tell what side he was on. But at the end of the day, I would like to think, and it seemed that everyone was laughing with him.

• 24:35Mike Rowe?

  Well, he gave it to them, but it was still funny.

• 24:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:38Mike Rowe?

  It was still in the context of a joke.

• 24:40Speaker 02

  They weren't mean spirited, I didn't think.

• 24:42Mike Rowe?

  He doesn't dye his hair, but he does bleach his face.

• 24:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:45Mike Rowe?

  Come on.

• 24:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:46Mike Rowe?

  That's just so, you know, there was an eight-year-old in him, basically, right? As much as he was a fan of big ideas and smart people like Sagan and science, he was still a child. He, I mean, he liked that silly, silly stuff.

• 25:04Speaker 02

  Absolutely. The sketches would show that and the guests. I mean, he liked various different types of people and stuff. But yes, silly. Him and Ed, or him and Burt Reynolds having a shaving cream battle. This is all impromptu. I mean, an egg fight with Dom DeLuise and Carson.

• 25:20Mike Rowe?

  Didn't Burt cut his tie?

• 25:22Speaker 02

  Yes, one of the first times that he was on. You know, Burt Reynolds, it's always the comedians that get the credit for Johnny making the career, but... Burt Reynolds, I think was the first time he guest hosted, which Johnny during his first or second appearance said, "How would you like to guest host?" And Reynolds was known as a dramatic guy and goes out there and gets deliverance because of it.

• 25:42Mike Rowe?

  John Borman.

• 25:43Speaker 02

  Yes, was watching and said, "I want this guy." And Reynolds' life changed. And then he's on with Helen Gurley Brown and Burt Reynolds with Carson. And that's when they come up with this idea, I think Johnny came up with it, that he was gonna do this playgirl-type

• 25:56Mike Rowe?

  For Cosmo.

• 25:57Speaker 02

  Yes. And Reynolds said at the Academy Award that year, he became a household name because of that centerfold, because of Johnny Carson. He said he counted like five jokes and he knew that that's when he arrived. And that was all Carson.

• 26:08Mike Rowe?

  But for Burt Reynolds to lean over with a pair of scissors and cut his tie, like, you don't touch Johnny Carson.

• 26:16Speaker 02

  That's what they would tell them. Yeah, you don't want to do this. This isn't Reynolds. As a rebellious person, it broke every rule.

• 26:22Mike Rowe?

  So what does Johnny do when you break a rule? Is there a sliding scale? Does it depend who you are?

• 26:30Speaker 02

  I think it depends on who you are. He was having people in his home and he expected people to act a certain way. I think if people were talented enough and did it in a certain way, it would be okay. Like, the Don Rickles thing was so controversial in 1965. Can you, you think about insult comedy now, it's so ubiquitous, but Carson had to take three minutes in 1965 and explain, "Okay, you don't know who this next comedian is. He's gonna make fun of me, but it's okay."

• 26:52Mike Rowe?

  But it's gonna be okay.

• 26:53Speaker 02

  We're allowed to laugh. And it was decided behind the scenes that Rickles could come out, he would make fun of Ed McMahon and the bandleader Skitch Henderson. They would see Johnny laughing and then it would be okay to insult Johnny. But Johnny, it was the first one that ever put him on late night. Everyone was way too afraid to risk it. So he definitely went against what traditional booking would be.

• 27:15Mike Rowe?

  What other risks did he take that, for the time, were hugely consequential, but by today's measure, might be like, you know, who cares?

• 27:25Speaker 02

  I think maybe Anita Bryant, the singer. I mean, she was in Florida with anti-gay legislation and Carson, I mean, was just, and the monologue just was like, just going after her with barbs. I think that that might have been the late 70s. That might have been one that maybe went against his audience. But they went with him on that. That might have been one. I'm trying to think.

• 27:47Mike Rowe?

  Tell me if this is, if I'm imagining this.

• 27:50Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 27:53Mike Rowe?

  He didn't want too much shtick in his guests. If you went too far with an act and it felt, even if it was funny, my sense was if it wasn't authentic, got off my set, which is like why like Tiny Tim was so interesting, you know, because if I remember right, Carson wasn't sure.

• 28:20Speaker 02

  He, that was it. He would not put anybody on unless he was sure they were the real deal. And he was, listen, everyone in Carson's show, except for one person who just passed away, Craig Tenness, the talent coordinator, no one wanted Tiny Tim on. Craig put his job on the line. The conservative crew thought this guy, I mean Tiny Tim was so, his hair was long.

• 28:38Mike Rowe?

  Tiptoe through the tulips guy.

• 28:40Speaker 02

  Yeah. And Carson really wanted to know, is this guy for real? And it wasn't until at the very end that Carson, no, this guy is for real. And then, you know, 45 million people a year or two later tune into the wedding, second to the moon landing, power of Carson, and made this guy a star. The Beatles, Bob Dylan, everybody is a Tiny Tim fan. Bob Uker, late 60s, I talked to Bob for an hour and he told me when he was on, Carson was so skeptical, he was a former MLB player.

• 29:04Mike Rowe?

  Cause he was funny.

• 29:05Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 29:06Mike Rowe?

  He was funny. You're not allowed to be that funny and athletic.

• 29:08Speaker 02

  The staff's like, he wasn't a player. It's like, he had to see baseball cards, TOPS cards, and had to see articles that this guy was really a ball player. But yeah, he could have been a professional comedian. And that's another thing with Uker and certain guests, they would throw out the pre-interview. They'd always have it, but if it was Rickles, if it was Buddy Hackett, it was just a conversation like this.

• 29:27Mike Rowe?

  See, that's why, I'm gonna ask you about that.

• 29:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:29Mike Rowe?

  Cause this has been, this has been up my butt for many, many years. Whether it's the Today Show, or Good Morning America, or The Tonight Show, or Leno, all of them.

• 29:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:40Mike Rowe?

  There's always a producer who calls me the night before to talk about what we're gonna talk about. And It's so demoralizing because when you do that, well, I mean, it's kind of like take two. Take two is another word for a performance. And it's not a conversation. How can you call it a conversation if a producer calls you the night before and you script it out? And yet, that's always informed this format. Even Carson?

• 30:13Speaker 02

  Carson had it, but a lot of times he didn't stick to it. I mean, I can't tell you how many guests he would throw it out. Back in New York, also, the writers would give him ad-libs for jokes, but he wouldn't, he'd go with it sometimes, but most of the time on his own, and he was usually right. But the best interviews, the most famous things are when he threw everything out and was just having a conversation with the person. And it would go, I mean, sometimes he would put on, now it's, oh, everyone's so obsessed with A-list celebrities on social media, how many accounts, and he would put on people that weren't even famous. He would put them on the first guest before the big movie star. I mean, the potato chip lady, this potato chip inspector from 1960, she's 65 years old in Indiana, and she notices as she's inspecting the potato chips that they're in the different shapes, and Carson puts her on the show.

• 30:56Mike Rowe?

  What shapes specifically? Like faces?

• 30:58Speaker 02

  Like objects. Bob Hope, looked like Bob Hope, different objects, puts her on, and it was, I think, the most requested clip. And he made her a star. I mean, she was, started traveling across the United States, went overseas, and Carson, in his brilliance, you know, he never made fun of the guests. Merv Griffin made the mistake of making fun of Tiny Tim, the audience turned on him. Carson was, his rule was, I'm gonna make my guests look good, no matter what. If they get the laugh, good for them. That was Carson. Carson did script it, but she didn't know it, where Ed McMahon distracted her, and then he bit in on a chip, and she almost had a heart attack.

• 31:30Mike Rowe?

  Cause she thought he just bit Bob Hope in the ass.

• 31:32Speaker 02

  Yes. And then he reveals, no, I have my own chips. And it made every anniversary show, but that was Carson. I mean, he was absolutely, for somebody that was doing that show, I mean, I think he did it best, and even again, today, looking back at him 30 years later, it's still the model on how to do one of these shows.

• 31:50Mike Rowe?

  You know, before there was a VCR, or anything time-shifted, or DVR, or anything like that, I lived next door to my grandparents, and I remember seeing my granddad.

• 32:02Mike Rowe?

  Cry with laughter as he was describing what he saw on the Carson show the night before. And so frustrated that he couldn't show it to us, but it was Ed Ames.

• 32:12Speaker 02

  Oh, yes.

• 32:13Mike Rowe?

  Throwing the tomahawk.

• 32:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, I sat down with him in Beverly Hills.

• 32:16Mike Rowe?

  No.

• 32:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, he was in his 90s.

• 32:18Mike Rowe?

  Explain to people who he was and what happened because that, that, I mean, that weird little moment. I didn't see it live, but my granddad did. And then later I saw it on a special.

• 32:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:31Mike Rowe?

  And it made me feel closer to my pop.

• 32:32Speaker 02

  Sure. Go ahead. I mean, my dad's the one that got me into Carson. A lot of people bonded with their families over Carson. It was something, the end of the day, you could all come together. So I'm in Beverly Hills with Ed Ames. He was known as a singer and he was on a, then on a show, Daniel Boone, I think on ABC. And he, in the beginning, he throws a tomahawk, but it's trick photography. It hits a tree perfectly. And he said, Mark, I did not know how to throw a tomahawk. It was decided that Johnny and him were going to take turns throwing at a wooden cutout of a cowboy.

• 32:59Mike Rowe?

  Perfect.

• 33:00Speaker 02

  And it was right before the show. They tried to tell him, this is how you throw a tomahawk. So he throws the first one, then it's Johnny. They're going to go back and forth. So Ed Ames throws it. This is 1965 and it hits the crotch area.

• 33:11Mike Rowe?

  Of the cowboy.

• 33:12Speaker 02

  In Carson, in his brilliance, Ed Ames goes to retrieve it. He's kind of a bit embarrassed. And Carson grabs him by the arm and holds him back. Jack Benny mode kicks in, which is, we're going to let the silences play, the laughs build. To this day, it's still considered the longest sustained laugh in the history of television with a studio audience. And Ed Ames told me he went home that night and he said, to his wife, the funniest thing happened, but NBC is never going to air this. And Carson, in his brilliance, did two things. One, he told NBC, you are airing this. And the second thing is, is Carson asked for a copy and he kept it in his desk, a kinescope. And he didn't realize that NBC would erase the first 10 years, almost all of the first 10 years. And that's why he had it in his desk. So that's why we, that, that moment.

• 33:53Mike Rowe?

  There's the image.

• 33:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:54Mike Rowe?

  Look at that.

• 33:55Speaker 02

  I mean, it's quintessential Carson.

• 33:56Mike Rowe?

  Not just a cowboy, a sheriff.

• 33:58Speaker 02

  Every year.

• 33:59Mike Rowe?

  That actually takes it to another level.

• 34:00Speaker 02

  Every year on the anniversary show, they would play this. A couple of years Johnny thought, you know, it's overdone. We're not going to do it. And then they would get people outraged. You have to do this every year. And then Carson would do it. But yeah, that was.

• 34:12Mike Rowe?

  But Mark, why?

• 34:18Mike Rowe?

  So as some of you may have heard, I went to Congress 16 years ago to testify before a House Subcommittee. And then again, a year later, to testify before a Senate Subcommittee about the need to reinvigorate the skilled trades with some kind of national effort that would make a more persuasive case for a lot of good jobs out there that didn't require a four-year degree. Well, 15 years later, I finally heard back from the government, and I am delighted to tell you about a program called BuildFreedom.us. This is the national PR campaign that MicroWorks has been talking about for a decade and a

• 35:01Mike Rowe?

  half now, and it's focused on 300,000 or 400,000 excellent jobs in the defense industrial base. These are the electricians, and the plumbers, and the steam finners, and the pipe fitters, and the CNC operators, and the shipbuilders, and so forth. But, in this case, all of those trades are focused on building out our national infrastructure through the defense industrial base. So people who are building our autonomous weapons, our planes, our ships, it's only a matter of national security, and it's a very big deal. And on a personal level, it's really been very gratifying. BuildFreedom donated $10 million to MicroWorks. The money's available right now for you, if you want to pursue a skill that's in demand

• 35:44Mike Rowe?

  and work in the defense industrial base. I think it's an opportunity of a lifetime. Go to BuildFreedom.us, see what's available, and then apply for a scholarship from MicroWorks. The money's there, burning a hole in my pocket. Go get some. BuildFreedom.us. Like, why every year did people want to see it? Like, really think about it.

• 36:06Speaker 02

  I think Carson's being a reactionary comic, I mean, that's what his biggest laughs are by far. Him being a reactionary comic, and in just letting the laughs build.

• 36:15Mike Rowe?

  That's why it was funny the first time. But what is it? About so many of these images and so much of this tape. Is it nostalgia? Is it Wertschmalts? Is it?

• 36:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's a good question.

• 36:29Mike Rowe?

  I mean, I'm, I think, for me, looking at this clip, it makes me laugh for all the reasons we say, but it also reminds me of my granddad with tears coming down his face as he tried to describe it to me when I'm, I don't know, what, 13 years old or something? Which, by the way, how old are you?

• 36:46Speaker 02

  Oh, I'm in my 40s as we tape this, as we record this.

• 36:49Mike Rowe?

  You're in your 40s?

• 36:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:51Mike Rowe?

  What's your secret, man?

• 36:52Speaker 02

  Oh, right back at you.

• 36:53Mike Rowe?

  As we record this. That's a hint.

• 36:55Speaker 02

  If this is after, if this is after January 21st or after, put me up a decade, but, yeah.

• 37:01Mike Rowe?

  Well, I'm only asking because I was born in 62.

• 37:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:05Mike Rowe?

  And I was born when he took.

• 37:09Speaker 02

  October 1st, 1962.

• 37:10Mike Rowe?

  Right. So that's when he went on the air in The Tonight Show in New York. He was always, in my mind, as a kid, but he was still a young man himself. You had to rediscover all this.

• 37:22Speaker 02

  I did. I was 16 when he went off the air and was watching thousands and thousands of hours of Carson and just trying to do as much research as I could.

• 37:32Mike Rowe?

  I don't want to put you on the couch necessarily, but I do need to understand.

• 37:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, sure.

• 37:36Mike Rowe?

  Because whatever you're gonna tell me is gonna resonate with plenty of people who are listening. So it's, I'm going back to that weird kind of why. What, was it your dad?

• 37:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, my dad got me into it. My dad went to the show in 1968 and tell me who the guests were that did Karnak the Magnificent and just got planted that seed and just got me into the show as my introduction to show business. He would do primetime anniversary shows. He'd be with kids. He'd be funny. He'd be funny with the animals. I talked to Joan Embry, I talked to Jim Fowler. I mean, he talked, he was with, you know, the comedians like Dangerfield. Like Rodney Dangerfield would do 50 jokes. Most comedians would did 25 jokes. Rodney did 25 stand-ups, sit-down with Johnny, another 25.

• 38:18Mike Rowe?

  He loved it.

• 38:18Speaker 02

  And, yeah, he was such a powerhouse. So to hear all those behind-the-scenes stories. But my dad was the one that got me into it. And again, there was just something, this mystery on what is going on behind the scenes? Who is Carson? What is he like behind the scenes? And there just weren't any answers. So that's why I started just talking to people. But again, I didn't think it would last eight years doing a podcast about Carson. I didn't realize that everybody.

• 38:42Mike Rowe?

  You literally did a Carson podcast for eight years.

• 38:44Speaker 02

  There were people that I didn't understand why they would want to talk to me. Like, for example, Jimmy Buffett's people said he's really excited to talk to him. Like, why would he be excited to talk to Mark Malkoff? And Jimmy Buffett said, "Mark, you're the first one to ever ask me about Carson was the biggest break of my career." And he said, "In 1981, I couldn't get booked on television. Carson was the one." And they just wanted to share the stories. I had no idea that that would be the case.

• 39:06Mike Rowe?

  So when did you know that you had stumbled into, I'm just gonna say it, a goldmine? And I'm not, I don't know how much money you're gonna make.

• 39:16Speaker 02

  Oh, I don't know.

• 39:17Mike Rowe?

  You're gonna sell a lot of books, I guarantee it. But, just a quick sidebar. I run this foundation called MicroWorks, and we award these scholarships to other people. So I go out and I tell these stories sometimes. And when I knew that I was doing a thing that was resonating, it's when old men, old men that were typically very successful, would pull me aside and say, "Let me tell you about my first dirty job."

• 39:47Speaker 02

  Oh, I see, yeah.

• 39:48Mike Rowe?

  Right? "Let me tell you about the time when such and such..." So, that thing exists in varying degrees with all kinds of subjects in everyone. But for you to find that in Buffett, I'm wondering, like, was that the inciting incident? Or was there some other interview when you left going, "Good grief, the world is desperate to tell their Carson story, and I'm here to absorb it."

• 40:11Speaker 02

  It started almost right away. I sat down with Peter Jones, who did American Masters PBS on John A. Carson. And I told him the idea for the podcast. I call him the next day. And I said, "I'm gonna do this." And I said, "Who do you think I should have on?" And he said, "Do you want Carl Reiner's home phone number?" I said, "Yeah." "Do you want Doc Severnson's cellphone number?" I said, "Okay." "Angie Dickinson's email?" I'm like, so everything, right away. And I'm with Carl Reiner in Beverly Hills, like, within days. And then he's the one that tells his friend Mel Brooks, his Jeopardy friend, "You need to talk to this kid." I'm in Culver City the next day with Mel Brooks.

• 40:43Mike Rowe?

  To be clear, that's because Carl Reiner and Mel Brooks sit down and watch Jeopardy.

• 40:47Speaker 02

  Yes. I'm in Carl Reiner's living room in Beverly Hills. He's like, "Mel and I, we have dinner every night here. I'm gonna tell Mel." And yet, that's, so it was one thing after another. But just the fact that all these people would be like little kids talking about... Mel was doing routines from the 1960s that he did on Carson's show for me in the office. He was on Johnny's very first show.

• 41:04Mike Rowe?

  And when did you interview Mel Brooks?

• 41:06Speaker 02

  I was 2013. I talked to him a couple of years ago for the book to just get some more information on him.

• 41:11Mike Rowe?

  Melvin Kaminsky, right?

• 41:12Speaker 02

  Yes, that's right, yeah. Kid from Brooklyn.

• 41:14Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 41:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's still doing it. He's ninety-eight, still at it.

• 41:18Mike Rowe?

  When you were sitting there.

• 41:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:19Mike Rowe?

  Listening to Mel Brooks. Blazing Saddles, Young Frankenstein.

• 41:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, producers.

• 41:25Mike Rowe?

  High anxiety.

• 41:25Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 41:26Mike Rowe?

  Producers.

• 41:27Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 41:27Mike Rowe?

  And like, did you see him?

• 41:32Mike Rowe?

  Go back in time in his own mind?

• 41:35Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 41:36Mike Rowe?

  As he, I mean, that's the gift I'm getting at.

• 41:39Speaker 02

  That is, and I would see these people reliving it on their faces and tears in their eyes sometimes, especially the comedian telling me and just thanking me for bringing this back.

• 41:48Mike Rowe?

  Ah, now we're getting somewhere.

• 41:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:50Mike Rowe?

  The tears in Mel Brooks's eyes, the tears in my granddad's eyes.

• 41:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:54Mike Rowe?

  A viewer. An icon.

• 41:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:57Mike Rowe?

  Both moved to tears.

• 41:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:00Mike Rowe?

  By the memory, the shared memory of a moment.

• 42:04Speaker 02

  It's powerful.

• 42:05Mike Rowe?

  That's what I mean by a goldmine. It's not, your book, if I can be so bold. Cause I just finished it and I haven't really had a time to properly absorb it, but it's not really about Carson. In my view.

• 42:18Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 42:19Mike Rowe?

  You know, it's about the reader and where the reader was and what the reader can remember and triangulate. And share. It's a chance, like, all those celebs you mentioned. They mean something to me. I have a shared memory of them. And when they talk about a memory that I also recall. You've stumbled into something culturally consequential.

• 42:47Speaker 02

  That's so nice to hear. I just remember even being sixteen in Hershey, Pennsylvania on October, or on May twenty-second, ninety-two, when Carson said goodbye. And I remember even just feeling the weight that this guy is going away. And what that would mean to America and television history and late night.

• 43:03Mike Rowe?

  Is that where you grew up?

• 43:04Speaker 02

  I did for a lot of my life. Yeah, it smells like chocolate when it was windy or rainy. Lucky me.

• 43:08Mike Rowe?

  Are the street lamps still shaped like Hershey's kisses?

• 43:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:12Mike Rowe?

  No.

• 43:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:13Mike Rowe?

  You know, I was in Hershey once for a gig. My suitcase was lost and I needed underwear. And I went to Kmart and I bought Hershey's underwear, literally, like they make underwear.

• 43:24Speaker 02

  Oh, I didn't know that.

• 43:25Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 43:26Speaker 02

  If dollars a dollar.

• 43:27Mike Rowe?

  With chocolate on the underwear, which really is a poor choice when you think about, you don't want to put.

• 43:32Speaker 02

  You probably don't want to do that.

• 43:33Mike Rowe?

  Chocolate on underwear.

• 43:34Speaker 02

  No.

• 43:35Speaker 01

  Was this dark chocolate or milk chocolate?

• 43:36Speaker 02

  Oh, gosh.

• 43:37Mike Rowe?

  Well, it started milk.

• 43:38Speaker 02

  I never.

• 43:38Speaker 01

  Whoa.

• 43:39Speaker 02

  I worked at Hershey Park.

• 43:41Mike Rowe?

  With nuts.

• 43:42Speaker 02

  I never had to dress up like the Hershey bar. I had a friend who did that and

• 43:46Mike Rowe?

  It's hard to come back for that dude.

• 43:47Speaker 02

  Yes. But Hershey, go Hershey. But I remember watching Johnny's last show and just devastated that this guy was going away. I mean, Letterman, for people my age and even your age, was the kind of like, at that point, kind of a cooler-

• 44:00Mike Rowe?

  Even my age? What the hell's that mean?

• 44:01Speaker 02

  Well, I don't mean, I mean, that a lot of people, when I talked to, because I was 16 at the time, and you would have been 30, a lot of people, even 30 years old, early 30s, Dave was the cooler choice. He's doing all this innovative stuff, and Carson really felt he was being taken for granted, and it really hurt him. Robert Smigel, who's a brilliant Saturday Night Live writer, Triumph the Insult Comic Dog, was writing these sketches on Saturday Night Live, and it broke Johnny's heart. They portrayed Dana Carvey playing Carson as really out of touch, senile, and Johnny said, "I do not want to be seen like this." And everybody's giving Letterman the accolades, and it was just a matter of time. I mean, those sketches were the biggest reason by far that Johnny walked away.

• 44:39Mike Rowe?

  What do you make of the fact that your book is filled with examples of courage and confidence on Carson's behalf, but insecurity and sensitivity at the same time?

• 44:55Speaker 02

  Definitely the sensitivity shocked me. I thought the cult was cold and aloof, like the media would make him out to be. He'd joke about the cold and aloof moniker, and then I'd be with his friends and the people that spent the most time, and consistently, they told me the same thing. He was almost the same person on and off camera, and you could not be out there for 30 years and fool the American public and not be yourself. Now, at the same time, it was a small group of people that saw him like that, that he felt comfortable with. But if he didn't know the person, he would be very, very shy. And you, self-preservation purposes, I mean, the guy couldn't walk five feet down the street without somebody literally grabbing his arm. So, I mean, people might have seen him be cold and aloof, but it was self-preservation. So, that was one thing. What was the other thing you asked?

• 45:35Mike Rowe?

  Well, I mean, it's just, sometimes on the same page-

• 45:38Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 45:39Mike Rowe?

  -in your book, you've got this weird juxtaposition between sublime confidence-

• 45:44Speaker 02

  You're right, you're right. He has enough confidence that when comedians would debut on his show, young comedians, he would, during commercials, he would give them ideas for their jokes and punch up their material, like George Lopez told me. Afterwards, when he debuted on Carson, Carson's like, "What?" Afterwards, went to his dressing room, "Why don't you try on this joke this?" And Lopez tried it the next night, and crushed. He said Carson knew what he was. But at the same time, he was definitely very, very, um, he would watch his competition- I mean, in 1971, he was watching four television at 11:30. He's watching his show. He's watching the Dick Cavett Show, David Frost. And then it was either Joey Bishop or Merv Griffin. And he was so competitive and so insecure that I don't know if you wanted me to talk about it, but he faked hepatitis.

• 46:25Speaker 02

  Like, that's pretty big, that he faked hepatitis and was instead getting cosmetic eye surgery.

• 46:30Mike Rowe?

  Right.

• 46:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, because his wife.

• 46:32Mike Rowe?

  So he was off, just so people understand. He's suddenly off the air for two weeks.

• 46:37Speaker 02

  Yes, Joey Bishop is filling in.

• 46:38Mike Rowe?

  Joey Bishop's filling in, and the story goes out that he's got Hep B.

• 46:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, okay, so Cavett is 10 years younger than him. David Frost, the Playboy, is 14 years younger. His mom, Ruth, in Nebraska, said, Johnny, you're looking so old. His girlfriend had just convinced him to stop dying his hair. So Carson gets this idea, I'm gonna just say I have hepatitis, go. He didn't realize, and this was really devastating, that over 200 people, 200 people at NBC would have to get shots, painful gamma goblin shots. And the NBC nurse is going around giving all these people that worked for him shots. Not only that, but people that were guests the last three weeks, Tony Randall, come on into NBC, you need a shot. And Carson's horrified that this is happening. But then you have people at NBC, because Carson, it's the equivalent to someone on Taylor Swift, that famous. There were people that weren't even around Carson that wanted the shot to brag to their friends.

• 47:26Mike Rowe?

  Right.

• 47:26Speaker 02

  So they're like, NBC nurse, give me the shot so I can tell my friends.

• 47:30Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 47:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was, that really shows his competition. Letterman was another person. He loved Letterman, but his biggest fear was going against Letterman. And the best solution possible was for Carson to put Letterman after him and limit him, give him as many limitations as possible in Johnny's eyes. One, no monologue. Johnny thought that that was a key. Dave could only do four opening remark jokes. You have to do it from New York, less guests back then. You can't only have four people in your band, no brass instruments. And it was one thing after another that Johnny, oh, no Fridays, which is when the younger people stay up. And he gave them five Fridays a year for the first couple of years. So. Dave loved Johnny, Johnny loved Dave, but at the same time, if he was competitive,

• 48:14Speaker 02

  like Tom Snyder, when he launched, NBC said, "Okay, we're gonna launch Snyder After Johnny's Anniversary Show." Carson said, "Absolutely not. I end the network, me." And they gave him, for Snyder's debut, they gave him when Joey Bishop was guest hosting to get the ratings down. So Carson had approval over every Letterman guest and every Snyder guest. And that was, he was definitely, he was the most competitive at the same time, yet insecure person.

• 48:38Mike Rowe?

  It's just one more juxtaposition.

• 48:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:40Mike Rowe?

  He was generous.

• 48:41Speaker 02

  He was.

• 48:42Mike Rowe?

  But stingy. He was effusive, but limiting.

• 48:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:47Mike Rowe?

  "I'll do this, but not to that point." He was constantly looking for something like equilibrium.

• 48:58Mike Rowe?

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• 49:39Mike Rowe?

  and data, along with a 30 gig hotspot, for just $29.95 a month for life. Not your phone's life, your life. No contracts, no commitments, just a very rare opportunity to lock into a ridiculously low rate for unlimited talk, text, and data for the rest of your life. It's the unlimited data plan from Pure Talk, and it will not be around for long. $29.95 a month for as long as you live. Taxes and fees not included. Some restrictions do apply. See puretalk.com for details. Offer ends 11/15/26. So chop, chop.

• 50:26Speaker 02

  He would, I mean, he'd take people that were considered too outrageous for TV like Bette Midler and launched her and took her to Vegas when he was, broke Judy Garland's record at the Sahara Hotel. I mean, he was a powerhouse in Vegas. He had an unknown Bette Midler that audiences were just shaking their heads, who is this? But Carson knew her talent and would nurture these people. And you would see them just keep going on Carson's show. I mean, after four months, Dave Letterman was guest hosting the show as an unknown. I mean, Shanley and, Gary Shanley and him were the only unknowns to ever guest host the show. And that was the power. And then they become household names.

• 50:58Mike Rowe?

  Well, you can't, you can't be on the show and still be unknown. I mean, has anybody ever occupied that much gray matter in the public's mind for that period of time? I mean, you mentioned Taylor Swift before, and I'm like, okay, you know, that's a cultural touchstone. But really, I mean, five, six years of, not even that. Like, the intensity of that last tour was a thing. But like, how do you think about her notoriety compared?

• 51:31Speaker 02

  I mean, it's so different. I mean, Steve Martin said Carson was more recognizable than the president or as recognizable. And it was just appealed to every demo. I mean, Taylor Swift, huge accomplishment. And she, you know, gave billions of bonuses, did some really great things.

• 51:45Mike Rowe?

  My mom couldn't pick her out of a lineup.

• 51:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, my mom too, probably. But it was one of those things. Carson really played everyone. Everyone knew who this guy was. And as a recognized, yeah, for 30 years. That was what astounded me. In terms of, he had competition, but no serious competition for 30 years. Who is good enough at their job that that happens?

• 52:05Mike Rowe?

  You know, you mentioned Letterman.

• 52:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:07Mike Rowe?

  I remember Letterman killing in a monologue later, after I think Johnny retired, and then telling the audience every single joke.

• 52:18Speaker 02

  I was there.

• 52:20Mike Rowe?

  What?

• 52:20Speaker 02

  No, I was there.

• 52:21Mike Rowe?

  You were in the studio?

• 52:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was 2005. It was January. Johnny had just passed away and broke everyone's heart yet again because he had left this. And I had worked for Dave. I had a day job at Dave Letterman's show. And if you worked for Dave, there was a rule that you are not allowed to be in the audience, ever, because it would throw Dave off if he recognized somebody.

• 52:38Mike Rowe?

  That had worked for him.

• 52:39Speaker 02

  Yes, or if somebody was famous. If they were a public figure and they had tickets, they'd go up to the balcony because it would throw Dave off. So I, I'm a very persistent person. Some of these guests that took four or five years to convince them to do it, a lot of people said yes right away. And I called up my friends at the show and I'm like, I have to be there for the Johnny tribute show. And they said, Mark, we can't do it. We can get in so much trouble. And I said, I just kept calling. They said, fine. They smuggled me in. So I'm in the balcony where Dave can't see me. And they put me in a folding chair so I'm not technically sitting in the audience. And yeah, Dave comes out, does his monologue, and then he says, I just want everybody to know, all these jokes were written by Johnny Carson. And it's like, so emotional. And then Johnny's producer, Peter LaSalle, was a guest, and then Doc Severnson and Ed Shaughnessy and Tommy Newsom, the band that

• 53:24Speaker 02

  played Johnny's favorite song, Here's That Rainy Day. It was Johnny's final year, final year in, on earth, he was writing jokes for Letterman. And he was like a little kid, so excited to watch a Dave show and see, you know, Dave would do a golf swing and only Johnny would know why he was doing that after he did one of Johnny's jokes. And he was a little, that was his last year. I mean, it was two packs a day since he was 14 of unfolded, unfolded.

• 53:50Mike Rowe?

  Whole mall.

• 53:50Speaker 02

  So, I mean, he didn't stop until he left the show. And then it was, the damage was done. I mean, he, he was such a smart guy. But at the same time, Tony Randall would lecture him about smoking. He said, I'm fine. Not winded. I can play two sets of tennis, not winded. He saw what a smoker's lung looked like. And he said, I, that the other people, not me. And he found out he had emphysema and had to get quadruple bypass. And the last couple of years were really, really tough.

• 54:13Mike Rowe?

  You know, it's not really fair to, like, I'm pointing out these contradictions, these inconsistencies, and these juxtapositions, stingy but generous, and so forth, denial, all these things. It's only the most human thing there is. It's only.

• 54:32Mike Rowe?

  All of us doing that all the time, we just don't imagine somebody who lives at that heightened level of existence would be subject to those same foibles.

• 54:44Speaker 02

  I think he tried to do the right thing. There were definitely times, I mean, he would talk about his struggles on air. He wasn't perfect. He was said he was overly competitive, the drinking. He said some people get fun-loving when they drink. I go the opposite. But just the fact that he left $180 million, which was the most money ever for an entertainer to this foundation that no one knew about until a couple of years after he passed away, the John Carson Foundation, still to this day that pays out millions of dollars every year to all these places. I mean, that was-

• 55:12Mike Rowe?

  To what? What does the foundation primarily-

• 55:14Speaker 02

  It goes everywhere from AIDS to education, just really, it's like, I think it's like maybe 80 different, 80 different groups.

• 55:21Mike Rowe?

  He left $180 million?

• 55:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was the biggest foundation ever in the history for an entertainer. But those were the stories, and I couldn't put them all in the book that I was shocked about, where people would tell me, "Mark, Johnny did this for me. A comedian told me he saved my life from drugs." It was one thing after another. One of the Carson writers said, "I was going through a painful divorce. Johnny said, 'Kind of take you out to dinner.'" I mean, these were the stories that Johnny did not want us to know. He was just like, he didn't want credit. Like, there's some celebrities, they do something, they have their publicists send out press releases to everyone, "Look how great I am," and Johnny wasn't like that.

• 55:53Mike Rowe?

  Back to the generous point. He was so, look, I, every nice thing I've gotten credit for doing in Dirty Jobs, I stole from Carson.

• 56:04Speaker 02

  He was curious, just like you are curious. Curiosity is the key, and everything I've ever done that I've been successful with, that I'm proud of, is curious, is curiosity.

• 56:14Mike Rowe?

  Yeah, and more so because it's a conscious choice. It's like work ethic. You're not born curious. You can exercise that muscle, you can choose, or you can let it atrophy. You can also choose, as a host of a show, to- You know, talk more than you listen. You can let your guest shine or not.

• 56:36Speaker 02

  Try to outdo them like certain guests that, you know, somebody's being funny, I'm gonna be funnier and no comment.

• 56:42Mike Rowe?

  Well, all my life, all my life I did that until Dirty Jobs, when I saw the quote, I don't know if it was Johnny saying or somebody saying it about him, but he was like, Johnny Carson knew he was gonna be back the next day. His guests were not. There would be a new one. And his job in that role was to make the guests as good as they could possibly be.

• 57:04Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 57:05Mike Rowe?

  What a lesson.

• 57:05Speaker 02

  First half hour was Johnny, monologue, a comedy piece, and then his rule was, I'm gonna make my guests look good. They get the first laugh, even if they get all the laughs, that is okay with me. Took it from Jack Benny, his mentor, which is Benny was like, it's my show, if somebody laughs and thinks it's funny, it's, you know, my name is on it, Johnny's name was on it.

• 57:25Mike Rowe?

  Not just that, he owned it.

• 57:27Speaker 02

  He did. In 1980, he got ownership of his show, which was unheard of, but they needed him, and he said, I'm gonna go down to 60 minutes instead of 90, and NBC obviously lost so much money with advertising, but they needed this guy. I mean, it was such a reversal, but to get ownership of a late night show, to get, that is almost unheard of. I mean, Letterman was able to do it with CBS in 93, because they had no infrastructure in place, and they really, really wanted him. But the fact Carson was able, generosity, I know, I'm only gonna bring this up, I know this is, I don't know how awkward this was with the book, but I'm only mentioning this because I know that she saved her job, and we talked about it before the show, was Joan Rivers. Joan, to me, I could have done a podcast about Joan being generous to people and the

• 58:08Speaker 02

  wonderful things she did, which is heartbreaking, which what I write about with, in this book, with her and Johnny, what really did happen. But I do wanna acknowledge, I know I'd met her a couple of times, she wouldn't talk to me for the podcast, and she was gone when I was writing the book, but I do wanna say, I could do a whole podcast on her, on how wonderful she was to people.

• 58:28Mike Rowe?

  Well, if you ever do that, and you want to go from another country, call me. Because she literally saved my career.

• 58:35Speaker 02

  Oh, I know, and that's why I'm bringing it up. And there were so many people that I've read these stories and talked to people, that she was there for them and did these things, and her generosity, it's just...

• 58:44Mike Rowe?

  Well, here's the crazy thing.

• 58:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:45Mike Rowe?

  I certainly, and I think a lot of people do. For those of you who don't know the story, you know, Joan Rivers was a very popular guest host.

• 58:52Speaker 02

  Yeah. Permanent guest host in 83, and she broke Sinatra's record in either Vegas or Atlantic City. I mean, Johnny gave her that real estate for the first time in the history of The Tonight Show, and Joan's career soared even higher.

• 59:05Mike Rowe?

  And she, who knows what would have happened, but I think it was Fox that made her an offer that I was going to say that she couldn't refuse, but really it was kind of Edgar.

• 59:15Speaker 02

  This is what happened. She wanted to be a good wife. When she would meet people in private at a party, it wasn't, hi, my name's Joan Rivers, I'm Joan Rosenberg, and she wanted to be a good wife. And Barry Diller told me, who was the head of Fox, he told me in New York, he's like, I told Joan, you need to tell Johnny. She was, for two and a half months, signed this deal with Fox and was still going on with Johnny, was guest hosting. Barry said, I'm friends with Johnny, I'm playing a poker game with him, you need to tell him. And Edgar was the one that said there's going to be unforeseen circumstances, and she didn't tell him. And at the same time, Johnny was in negotiations with Carson for her to keep guest hosting The Tonight Show, and she had no intention to do. She had already signed this deal with Fox. And then the weekend before Johnny found out, it was Johnny's producer Fred Decord and Johnny were calling Joan at home in California, and they'd say, oh, no, she's in Vegas. They called Vegas.

• 1:00:00Speaker 02

  Oh, no, she's in, they couldn't get her on the phone. And then finally, that Sunday night, Johnny got a call from Brandon Tartikoff, and Joan was dodging them. Joan and then-

• 1:00:09Mike Rowe?

  Tartikoff, who's running NBC at this point.

• 1:00:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, who said, you know, Joan's going against his, has a show on Fox. And Johnny just, he was heartbroken. I mean, he just, he couldn't believe it, and he, he didn't hang up on her, he just wouldn't take Rivers' call. Rivers went into panic mode and called him. But then she did some other things, which she admits she did, which is, number one, she tried to take Johnny's prize producer, Peter LaSalle, over to Fox.

• 1:00:30Mike Rowe?

  No, that's, that's-

• 1:00:30Speaker 02

  And Johnny couldn't understand that. Every talent coordinator, and I've, I've talked to some of them, every five got a call and they were offered to double their salary from Joan to go over to, yeah, go from Johnny. None of them did, they stuck with Johnny. So that was really tough. And then Joan making it out to be some media war. I mean, she said, you know, if you go on my show, you can't do John. Michael J. Fox, Mel Brooks, all these people did Joan's show, and Johnny didn't care. Johnny's cue card person, who Johnny was very close to, Don Schiff, told me, he went to Johnny, he said, "I have the opportunity, my company has the opportunity to do Joan's show at Fox through the cue cards." He's like, "No, you have to do it. It's a lot of money. You have my blessing." All she needed to do was say that I have this opportunity.

• 1:01:10Speaker 02

  But the thing that, that one of the reasons she didn't do it, and Edgar, is that she, this would have happened, is that it would have been two months that Johnny would have removed her as guest host. But it would have been two months, it would have preserved her relationship with Johnny. Everyone sat down with Johnny and said, "I have an opportunity, Joey Bishop, Dick Havitt." And then their shows would get inevitably canceled and Johnny would have them back instantly and it was all good. And Rivers, after 10 months, Barry Diller said, "I'm firing your husband," and Rivers said, "If you do that, I'm walking." Rivers thought Diller was bluffing, he wasn't, and after 10 months, she was out of a job. Two months later, Edgar Rosenberg takes his own life. It was horrible. And then Ms. Rivers finds out she has millions of dollars in debt.

• 1:01:48Speaker 02

  Talk about resiliency. Talk about somebody who, I mean, is an icon, somebody in comedy that was able to bounce back at such a level.

• 1:01:56Mike Rowe?

  Did you see her documentary?

• 1:01:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, piece of work, sure.

• 1:01:59Mike Rowe?

  Jesus.

• 1:01:59Speaker 02

  No, she's incredible. In terms of somebody being that competitive and loving what they do, yeah, it was definitely a masterclass. And if you want longevity in this business, I mean, there was a reason. It just was really hard. I don't think she ever got over what happened with Johnny. She tried to, she'd see him around and he, you know, try to talk to him and he just never, if he was hurt, the relationship was over.

• 1:02:22Mike Rowe?

  It's another thing that makes your book more than a, "Oh, and then this happened, and then that happened." It's so human, dude. It's like, we're sitting right now in Santa Monica, and within, say, 10 square miles, there are many, many, many, many, many, many people, many executives, lots of talent, writers, comedians, all of them, who, in a similar situation, would shrug and go, "That's showbiz." Right? Because you know, if you're in this town, you must be this tall to get on the ride, and you're gonna get stabbed in the back, and your friends are gonna let you down, and so forth, and so forth, and so forth. And if you take it personally, you'll go out of your mind. And here, again, is Johnny Carson, at the absolute top of the food chain. It's not showbiz.

• 1:03:04Speaker 02

  He was wounded.

• 1:03:05Mike Rowe?

  It's personal.

• 1:03:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, there were certain times, there were a few entertainment figures that he just couldn't shake, but it was even people like Dick Clark. He did business with him on bloopers and practical jokes, but wouldn't put Clark on the show for 30 years because when Carson was a game show host, Dick Clark was American Bandstand, this phenomenon, and the network wanted to put Carson's game show, which just had started in the middle of Bandstand, and divide the show up and Clark said absolutely not. And Carson, if he held a grudge and was hurt, I mean, you just wouldn't have the person on. And it was definitely petty. I mean, Carl Sagan, who we loved, corrected him twice on the air and interrupted him. Carson's, he's never coming back. I mean, that was-

• 1:03:46Mike Rowe?

  But they stayed friends.

• 1:03:47Speaker 02

  They did, but it was so, for somebody looking on, petty, but at the same time, someone like Jerry Lewis, who was rude to Carson's staff, said, I don't care if he's Jerry Lewis, he's icon, he's never coming back. He was rude to my staff. So, he definitely had people's back, but there are people that went on that it's, a lot of people would look petty.

• 1:04:06Mike Rowe?

  So he had rules-

• 1:04:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:04:07Mike Rowe?

  But it was a sliding scale, and your experience might vary.

• 1:04:09Speaker 02

  He was not a religious man, but he did not like people doing jokes mocking religion or God. And Ellen DeGeneres, on her third appearance, got banned from the show. They told her not to do a specific joke that she did. And, you know, Carson was a humanist. Carson would spend a lot of time with fellow humanists, Norman Lear, Carl Sagan. These are people that their philosophy is, we don't believe in God, but we're here on earth to leave the world in a better place and to be a good person. And that was what Carson did. But at the same time, he definitely respected people that had faith. And Ellen, when she did that joke-

• 1:04:45Mike Rowe?

  What was the joke, you remember?

• 1:04:47Speaker 02

  The joke, to my recollection, was that she was, just became a godmother to like a five or a 10-year-old. And she's like, I happen to call me God for short. Something that really doesn't seem like it's a big deal, but back then especially, people would write in letters when they were with religion.

• 1:05:03Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:03Speaker 02

  And, I mean, Jay Leno made a- I mean, he would call the viewers and apologize. I mean, Johnny would do that, too. If it was really, if he did a joke that really he felt was fair, he would call the person or write them. I mean, he would get on the phone all the time with people, make a wish with kids and stuff. But he definitely, if he thought he was in the wrong, he would apologize. He would take people that would apologize to him. Chevy Chase sent him an apology letter in 1977 and said, "I'm sorry for the stuff I've said. I'd love to come on if you'll have me." And Carson said, "Absolutely. Come on in." They met each other for the first time before the show, then they became poker pals for decades after that. And it was all good. All it took was an apology.

• 1:05:41Mike Rowe?

  Well, there it is again, man.

• 1:05:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:42Mike Rowe?

  Gracious.

• 1:05:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:44Mike Rowe?

  Or not. Bury the hatchet.

• 1:05:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:47Mike Rowe?

  Or carry the grudge.

• 1:05:48Speaker 02

  And there were people that their careers were not going well, and they said Johnny, they would write Johnny letters. Robert Goulet, "Will you please have me on the show? I haven't done the show in 10 or 15 years." Carson said, "Absolutely." Phyllis Newman.

• 1:05:58Mike Rowe?

  Wait, no, wait, no, wait.

• 1:05:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:00Mike Rowe?

  Was it Goulet?

• 1:06:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:01Mike Rowe?

  Who forgot the words?

• 1:06:02Speaker 02

  Yes! That was it.

• 1:06:03Mike Rowe?

  That is...

• 1:06:04Speaker 02

  That was...

• 1:06:04Mike Rowe?

  That and, what's his name? John Davidson.

• 1:06:07Speaker 02

  Goulet forgot. That was the time that he wrote a letter to Johnny, "Can I come on the show?" He goes on, "And any other late night show would have stopped because Goulet forgets the words to Memories." And Johnny said, "No, we're gonna keep rolling."

• 1:06:17Mike Rowe?

  The song was Memories?

• 1:06:19Speaker 02

  Yes, yes. And John Davidson... It made John Davidson and Goulet look so good because they're human beings to these people. You know, you look at some famous people and you think they're always perfect. And it gave them extra segments on the show, and it was wonderful that Johnny did that with them.

• 1:06:37Mike Rowe?

  Yeah, I just want to jump in and say that. That is, that's the gold, right? So on the one hand, you're gonna have a pre-interview, there's gonna be a producer, you're gonna have a plan. But every now and then, you're gonna let the viewer know that we're on that part of the map that says, "Right, here be dragons."

• 1:06:54Speaker 02

  The mistakes!

• 1:06:54Mike Rowe?

  Right, we're, right. So, so the Goulet episode is amazing, but it's also why, obviously, the Ed Ames beat.

• 1:07:03Mike Rowe?

  But it's why the animals ranked so high. Because you can't script those sons of bitches.

• 1:07:09Speaker 02

  No, he was somebody that we're gonna let all the mistakes get in. And to the point where he would do things on principle sometimes that would shock the writers and they admired him so much. They did a graduation sketch where he was in cap and gowns and it bombed. And he called up the head writer the next day and said, we're gonna do the same sketch tonight. And said, okay, so we're gonna rewrite it. Oh, no, it was a bad audience. This was funny, we're gonna do the exact thing, word for word.

• 1:07:35Mike Rowe?

  What? When?

• 1:07:36Speaker 02

  It was in the eighties.

• 1:07:37Mike Rowe?

  So this, so he's in LA?

• 1:07:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was in the late eighties. Word for word, and it kills the second night. With that, and the writer said, so we're gonna acknowledge to the audience beforehand, we're doing the same sketch. Oh, no, he was fearless, and it killed.

• 1:07:51Mike Rowe?

  That is bananas.

• 1:07:52Speaker 02

  And it killed, and then after it killed, he acknowledged, you know, we, finally, we did that piece, the same piece. And Carson, no, he wanted to do the A to B comparison. He was convinced there was a bad audience, and it was.

• 1:08:03Mike Rowe?

  But, so in his mind, does he think his audience consists only of the people in the studio? Like, what do you do if you're home? Okay, like you watch it last night and you go, you're like, what are you doing, dude? Or is it me?

• 1:08:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a rerun.

• 1:08:20Mike Rowe?

  Am I stuck in some weird?

• 1:08:21Speaker 02

  It's a rerun from the night before. He was brave like that. I mean, it was very rare he would do something like that, but it was just on principle. I mean, it was so hard for him to go out there some nights when the audience was bad and it would happen. But now everybody claps during a monologue joke. If they, monologue jokes don't bomb. Back then, Carson, some of the best lines and the best things was when in the monologue, inevitably, a joke wouldn't work. And he'd be funnier. I mean, he wouldn't purposely pick bad jokes to do, but once in a while, something wouldn't work. And he'd be as funny, if not funnier, with one of those, you know, saving a joke.

• 1:08:55Mike Rowe?

  Well, I mean, is that, is that again, see, I, maybe I'm not being fair to producers, but, you know, to... Like, the whole notion of an audience warm-up.

• 1:09:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:07Mike Rowe?

  Is kinda, I get it, but, you know, anybody who's ever been to see live tapings will see the people on the sides just telling the audience when to clap and, and like, what's the difference between that and a laugh track?

• 1:09:20Speaker 02

  There, there is an audience warm-up person, I'm not gonna mention, who actually tells the audience how loud I need you with my laugh and has them get to that pitch and, yeah, I mean, a lot of those shows, that's what the audiences do. They either clap or, yeah, it's really...

• 1:09:34Speaker 03

  They didn't do that with Carson. That never happened with Carson.

• 1:09:36Mike Rowe?

  Well, and I think viewers are smart.

• 1:09:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:39Mike Rowe?

  And I think Carson, I've never seen anybody who respected the audience more than Carson.

• 1:09:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was, well, one thing, he never, he wouldn't put certain people on if he thought that the audience, because he respected the audience, he wouldn't put them on if they couldn't tell if the person was in character or not. So Gilbert Godfrey was never allowed to do the show. Pee-wee Herman couldn't do the show.

• 1:10:00Mike Rowe?

  But Tiny Tim could.

• 1:10:01Speaker 02

  Yes, because he was real. And if it was something obvious, like Super Dave Osborne, uh, buying, that was okay. Father Guido Sarducci, Don Navello, this is obviously a bit, but if there was any question, like Emo Phillips, we're not putting him on.

• 1:10:15Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:16Speaker 03

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• 1:10:46Speaker 02

  So, yeah, that was his respect for the audience. And he, even with magicians, because Carson was an amateur magician, I mean, he banned Orson Welles, who was his friend, magician friend for his show, for when he guest hosted The Tonight Show, had plants in the audience for this mentalist trick. And Carson thought that was a violation of just a magician's code and also the audience as well, not respecting the audience, and he banned him from the show.

• 1:11:06Mike Rowe?

  Well, what about like, you know, Penn and Teller?

• 1:11:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:10Mike Rowe?

  Also great.

• 1:11:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:11Mike Rowe?

  Magicians, but their shtick is debunking.

• 1:11:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:15Mike Rowe?

  So how's that playing?

• 1:11:16Speaker 02

  Well, I was just in Vegas with Penn and he asked...

• 1:11:19Mike Rowe?

  Dude, you drop names faster than, and I have never, ever talked to anyone in my life.

• 1:11:26Mike Rowe?

  Who has known this many famous people?

• 1:11:28Speaker 02

  I was with Penn, just, and he-

• 1:11:30Mike Rowe?

  This morning?

• 1:11:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was with him like a week and a half ago in Las Vegas. And he was telling me, because he's like, why do you think we were never on Carson? Penn and Teller. I said, oh, you were on with, guess who's Jay Leno at the time, but you didn't do it with Johnny? I was like, I was told that Johnny wouldn't have you on because you were giving away the secrets. And he said, wrong. And he told me the reason that Johnny wouldn't have them on is because at the end of one of the routines, Johnny wanted Teller to come up to show the audience. It was like, it was a take of water to show that he was okay. And they didn't want to do that. So Johnny said, I respect that artistic integrity. We're just gonna put you on with Jay instead. So, and Penn told me he regrets it. And he became friends with Johnny. I mean, they, they became friends and talked on the phone. And Penn did this documentary with Paul Prevenza called The Aristocrats.

• 1:12:15Speaker 02

  And that was one of Johnny's favorite, favorite jokes.

• 1:12:18Mike Rowe?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:12:18Speaker 02

  And Johnny, Penn was gonna go, and Paul Prevenza were gonna go to Johnny's home in Malibu right after the movie was done and premiered, and Johnny passed away. Like, right then, and it was, they were in Sundance when Johnny, they found out Johnny passed away. They were gonna go to his home, and, you know.

• 1:12:34Mike Rowe?

  If I were to suggest people Google the Aristocrat. Which, which version of that joke would you suggest that people watch?

• 1:12:43Speaker 02

  I mean, maybe Gilbert Gottfried is maybe the most famous.

• 1:12:47Mike Rowe?

  It's pretty great.

• 1:12:48Speaker 02

  Gilbert, Johnny would reference the joke, but he couldn't talk about it on the show. I think that people that aren't in comedy or show business, it really, it, there's probably a mistr- like, might not understand why-

• 1:12:59Mike Rowe?

  If you're not following along, it's like the crudest, dirtiest joke-

• 1:13:02Speaker 02

  It is.

• 1:13:02Mike Rowe?

  In the history of jokes.

• 1:13:03Speaker 02

  And they did a documentary where everybody has their own version of this, this thing. And it's filthy. I mean, it's absolutely-

• 1:13:09Speaker 01

  And the punchline is always the same. The Aristocrat.

• 1:13:12Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:13:12Speaker 01

  That's the punchline.

• 1:13:13Mike Rowe?

  Right.

• 1:13:14Speaker 02

  And, yeah, Gilbert did it, was one of the first people to do it, I think, on television. And Comedy Central had to, I think they had to beep it out a lot.

• 1:13:22Mike Rowe?

  Oh, sure.

• 1:13:22Speaker 02

  Yeah. But Johnny, that was one of his favorite jokes.

• 1:13:26Mike Rowe?

  So-

• 1:13:27Speaker 02

  Name dropping. Who else can I name drop?

• 1:13:29Speaker 01

  Oh, dude. Oh, you know, speaking of name dropping, you know who's the worst name dropper that I've ever-

• 1:13:33Mike Rowe?

  Worse than him?

• 1:13:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:34Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:13:35Speaker 01

  Sting.

• 1:13:36Speaker 02

  Really?

• 1:13:36Speaker 01

  Just the worst, yeah.

• 1:13:39Speaker 02

  I thought you were gonna say Dick Cavett.

• 1:13:41Mike Rowe?

  Well, you know what?

• 1:13:42Speaker 02

  I love Cavett, by the way.

• 1:13:43Mike Rowe?

  I just, the extent of my notes here just says Cavett.

• 1:13:46Speaker 02

  I'm only saying Cavett because he'll like make fun of himself to talk about Groucho. And he, I mean, he knew Stan Laurel, he knew Groucho. I want to hear those stories. I sat down with Cavett twice.

• 1:13:55Mike Rowe?

  You're kidding me?

• 1:13:55Speaker 02

  For my podcast. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I sat down with him for the podcast. I mean, he, yeah.

• 1:14:00Mike Rowe?

  Dude, you're absolutely killing me.

• 1:14:01Speaker 02

  He was a writer for Carson. He was, worked for Jack Parr. He got hired in Carson 64, two years.

• 1:14:05Mike Rowe?

  I love Dick Cavett.

• 1:14:07Speaker 02

  Oh, he's the best.

• 1:14:08Mike Rowe?

  No, well, no, no. Carson was the best.

• 1:14:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, but Cavett, for what he did.

• 1:14:12Mike Rowe?

  For what, no one did what he did better than him.

• 1:14:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:14:14Mike Rowe?

  You know, like, that's like a George Plimpton kind of creature, you know? But, I know, I just had another thought.

• 1:14:21Speaker 02

  Love Cavett.

• 1:14:22Mike Rowe?

  Well, Midwest.

• 1:14:24Speaker 02

  That's right, Nebraska. Brando as well. And Carson and Brando were friends for decades.

• 1:14:28Mike Rowe?

  What is with, like, how many famous talk show hosts came out of the Midwest?

• 1:14:33Speaker 02

  A decent amount of people were Midwestern. Dave Letterman, for sure, Cavett.

• 1:14:41Speaker 02

  I think, oh, we're talking Ohio, I think, Jack Parr. It seemed that...

• 1:14:46Mike Rowe?

  Steve Allen?

• 1:14:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, I forget where Allen's from.

• 1:14:48Mike Rowe?

  He seems so urbane. He seems so...

• 1:14:51Speaker 02

  It really was, that was the Midwest. I mean, to succeed with longevity on those shows, it did seem that the Midwest...

• 1:14:57Mike Rowe?

  It's like the central time zone.

• 1:14:58Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:14:59Mike Rowe?

  You need to be all central.

• 1:15:00Speaker 02

  Carson was really good, though, at playing to Nebraska, but then he would be really sophisticated enough to play to the cities. I mean, he, yeah, I really do wish, especially for younger people, I don't, how old do you think people, what is the age that you think maybe people don't know who Carson is? I hope the younger people listening go to YouTube and watch his clips. I mean, again, millions and millions, billions of views.

• 1:15:21Mike Rowe?

  Yeah, I mean, look...

• 1:15:22Speaker 02

  Forty-five, maybe? And anyone under forty-five?

• 1:15:25Speaker 01

  No, it's younger than that. We have somebody, Logan, in the office.

• 1:15:28Speaker 02

  Oh, good, he knows Carson.

• 1:15:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, asked about you.

• 1:15:30Speaker 02

  I have no idea.

• 1:15:30Speaker 01

  No, he did not, no.

• 1:15:31Speaker 02

  Oh, dang!

• 1:15:32Speaker 01

  Did not know Carson.

• 1:15:33Speaker 02

  Logan!

• 1:15:34Mike Rowe?

  Well, look, man, it's like, this is back to your book. There's a, so much of what storytelling is, is a reliance on a presupposed, shared experience. Like, you can't tell a joke if your audience doesn't understand, never mind the punchline, but just the whole premise, the whole underlying thing. So, and when Carson was at his peak... The country basically had three choices a night, maybe four.

• 1:16:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:16:06Mike Rowe?

  And so, we were living in a time when the assumption was the fat part of the bat was gonna be up to speed with your references, cuz people were more or less watching the same thing.

• 1:16:18Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 1:16:19Mike Rowe?

  What would Johnny say today, looking at Rogan, looking at, just go down the list of the top podcasts? The way I heard it, for instance, okay? Like, what, like, how do you think about such a fractured, bifurcated ecosystem?

• 1:16:33Speaker 02

  I think he, I don't know, I mean, he would love podcasts cuz he was curious. I think he would really succeed at something like what you're doing. I know when his retirement years from 92 till he passed away in 2005, he was just obsessed with watching the worst things on TV. He couldn't believe there were all those reality shows and he's like, he was only like disappointed if it wasn't bad enough, but in terms of everybody having a show, I think, yeah, I mean, it's definitely, I feel like the mystique and the, it just lost its magic a little bit. It's just different. I mean, there was just something about everybody tuning in for one person and somebody's career being made where that does, I mean, now, I think for comedians, it seems like social media maybe on Instagram,

• 1:17:16Speaker 02

  but it's just, yeah, I mean, when was the last time a late night show gave a comedian a break? That really launched them, maybe Nate Bargazzi with Jimmy Fallon, maybe. Letterman launched Ray Romano and Gaffigan, Jim Gaffigan.

• 1:17:29Mike Rowe?

  But even that's different now.

• 1:17:30Speaker 02

  Twenty-five years, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:17:31Mike Rowe?

  I mean, what is a hit? You know, you can have a hundred thousand people watch and, okay.

• 1:17:37Speaker 02

  It's way more fun back then with three networks and UHF. I think, you know, to me, The Carson Show is the best time capsule for those thirty years to look at where the popular, the culture was, how people dressed, how people carried themselves, where the politics was, what was socially acceptable, who were the famous people of the day.

• 1:17:53Mike Rowe?

  You don't think about Carson in terms of like a Bo Brummel or a, like a, like a fashionista, but his line of clothing, I'm old enough to remember, that was a big deal.

• 1:18:04Speaker 02

  It was, he was this guy who was paying, it was like, wasn't, I could be off on this, but in the sixties, he could have been a corporation, but he's like, no, I'm gonna pay, it was ninety percent of his taxes, he was like in the top bracket where he was paying. So high and his wife Joanne was the one that brought in this guy Sonny Werblin who owned the Jets and they he was the one that got Johnny the men's line and he started making a gazillion dollars. But that was not what he didn't that's not what his goal he never was chasing the money, but it did follow.

• 1:18:36Mike Rowe?

  But it did catch up. I mean, he was paying 70% in taxes.

• 1:18:39Speaker 02

  Yes, that was like 70% in taxes.

• 1:18:41Mike Rowe?

  And he wasn't cheating.

• 1:18:42Speaker 02

  But he thought he's like, this is my duty. I'm gonna pay 70 and Werblin was the one that we can you can be a corporation and got him all these opportunities and then in 1980 he got ownership of the show. He definitely had that, but at the same time, I don't think that people were watching at home. I mean, he'd wear his suits, they weren't the designer suits.

• 1:18:58Mike Rowe?

  No, but didn't he like wear like a Nehru jacket or something?

• 1:19:01Speaker 02

  Yes, and people started buying him, he wore turtlenecks, people started buying the turtlenecks. But this is one of the best examples I can tell you about Carson just being a comforting presence. I think it was 67 or 68, Muhammad Ali is in Texas, he's about to get arrested, he knows he's gonna be arrested for the next day for not joining the military, he's refusing service, they're not gonna go overseas. Howard Cosell walks into Ali's hotel room and finds Ali under the covers watching Johnny Carson.

• 1:19:26Mike Rowe?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:19:27Speaker 02

  And he knows hours he's gonna be and that's what he, I mean, that was his comfort and I feel like so many Americans, whatever was going on with our day, whatever was politics, he was just a comforting presence.

• 1:19:39Mike Rowe?

  So that doesn't exist today. It just simply doesn't exist. The closest you can come to it is still going to be like maybe a live sporting event in terms of a water cooler moment.

• 1:19:53Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:19:54Mike Rowe?

  That might still galvanize, but nothing like a daily dose, nothing like a nocturnal tuck in.

• 1:20:02Speaker 02

  Not that I can think of, no, unfortunately not. I miss him, I really do. I have to constantly, because I watch so much Carson, I still do, remind myself that, yeah, his show hasn't been on in 30 years and this guy's been off for 20 years, he's not, yeah, he's been deceased. It doesn't, he seems, from when I watch him, he just, it's, it just seems so fresh and it isn't. I mean, he's been gone for a while and we just miss him.

• 1:20:26Mike Rowe?

  Well, I'll tell you something and I gotta ask you about Bushkin, don't let me forget.

• 1:20:30Speaker 02

  Oh, sure.

• 1:20:31Mike Rowe?

  But, but I keep missing it. Cavett.

• 1:20:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:20:36Mike Rowe?

  Here's something I want you guys to Google. Google Dick Cavett, Oscar Peterson.

• 1:20:42Mike Rowe?

  Oscar Peterson, maybe the greatest jazz pianist to ever live. And there's a clip on YouTube of Dick Cavett interviewing him. It is a masterclass in an interview done in a completely different kind of way. He brings him out and they talk, but then they walk over to the piano and Oscar sits down. And you realize the depth of knowledge Cavett has, not just about Oscar's own repertoire and his past, but about music itself. And back to your earlier thing, Cavett was a curious cat. Cavett and Carson, both curious.

• 1:21:19Speaker 02

  He took Jack Parr's advice, which is you throw away any note cards pre-interview. You get prepared, but you're having a conversation. That's what Carson did, that's what Parr did, and that's what Cavett did so well.

• 1:21:29Mike Rowe?

  Well, that's what I'm trying to do here.

• 1:21:31Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:21:31Mike Rowe?

  And you know what? It is a challenge. Actually, it's not a challenge because we have unlimited time.

• 1:21:35Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:21:36Mike Rowe?

  And I'm the master of my own domain.

• 1:21:37Speaker 02

  We're gonna go as long as Jason Alexander's friend, Peter, what's his name? The one that went for...

• 1:21:41Speaker 01

  Oh, Peter Tilden.

• 1:21:42Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:21:43Mike Rowe?

  Peter Tilden.

• 1:21:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:43Mike Rowe?

  And went for two hours.

• 1:21:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, it went a while.

• 1:21:46Speaker 01

  Well, in fairness, his dog was dying, so...

• 1:21:48Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:21:48Mike Rowe?

  Oh, yes, that's right.

• 1:21:49Speaker 02

  That was definitely really...

• 1:21:50Mike Rowe?

  You actually watched that? So you watch the show?

• 1:21:52Speaker 02

  I do. If I'm gonna sit down with somebody, especially to get on an airplane and fly out.

• 1:21:56Mike Rowe?

  You did do that. Man, you must really wanna sell some books.

• 1:22:00Speaker 02

  Oh, come on. No, I mean, I mean, you've accomplished so much. I mean, yeah, no, I wanted to meet you. I wasn't gonna turn this down. I emailed Chuck and Chuck was like, was so intrigued that it wasn't a book publicist. It was a guy who wrote a book that was just like, I would love to come on.

• 1:22:15Mike Rowe?

  And he called me and he get, look, he, whatever you said to him, I've known him forty-six years or something like this. Obviously, he has no, it's like LaSalle plus Cordova.

• 1:22:25Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:22:26Mike Rowe?

  Right? And so, I'll take his recommendation, but I'll also question everything because, you know. He's got his own ideas.

• 1:22:34Speaker 02

  Chuck did get me on the telephone and I'm like, I hope I don't blow this. Or we did a Zoom and I'm just like, I hope I, I pass this, the test. So.

• 1:22:42Mike Rowe?

  Well.

• 1:22:42Speaker 02

  I was glad I was here. I do feel like this is almost like a Carson thing where it's like, I'm coming on with something and I'm like, so nervous beforehand.

• 1:22:49Mike Rowe?

  Well, you, I mean, okay.

• 1:22:50Speaker 02

  Want to do a good job.

• 1:22:50Mike Rowe?

  You've already done it. Now we're, we're in total bonus fill now.

• 1:22:53Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:22:53Mike Rowe?

  You crushed it. But the real reason that I wanted to do a podcast face to face, I did plenty of long distance and stuff.

• 1:23:01Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:23:02Mike Rowe?

  But it's everything that you just talked about. It's the opposite of production. There are no, I got a pad here so I can remind myself of some things.

• 1:23:10Speaker 02

  Two words though.

• 1:23:11Mike Rowe?

  I have two words. Right. What did I write? I wrote caveat and then I wrote, oh, pod, which I'm getting to.

• 1:23:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:17Mike Rowe?

  Well, actually I'm talking about right now.

• 1:23:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:19Mike Rowe?

  And people always talk about, let's have a conversation. The problem is all of the existing formats in morning and late night are still fundamentally designed to make sure that can't happen. And most of it is a time restraint. Some of it is advertorial. Some of it is people, producers fall in love with a plan. So then the whole thing becomes execution instead of, you know, a little adventure. I think Carson would love the podcast world because it would let him do even more of what he was so good at doing.

• 1:23:53Speaker 02

  He was getting pitches. I mean, his office was less than two miles from here in Santa Monica and he was getting pitched things. And I mean, he definitely considered doing things with the Titanic and, and certain, certain things he was curious about. I mean, he took Jim Fowler to Africa on safari and Carson, it wasn't enough for Carson to go on safari. He had to take, he on his own took four months of, of language classes with, of Swahili so he could communicate with the Africans. When he went to Russia, it wasn't enough. He went to Russia in the late eighties. He took four months. He had somebody come to his home in Malibu and taught him enough Russian where he could communicate with the people. I mean, he has curiosity. And the only Oscar host that no teleprompter, no cue cards, all memorized, everything can edit in his head. All I'm saying, his capability was unlike anybody else.

• 1:24:38Mike Rowe?

  We're surrounded too by crutches. Everything from a teleprompter to a cue card, which I know he used, but I've seen the cue cards that he uses and there's, it's just reminders.

• 1:24:49Speaker 02

  It was cue card, it was key words. It wasn't word by word where some hosts need every single word and he could edit the jokes in his head and he was on a level, I mean, there wasn't intimacy. He would make people that were terrified, you know, Elizabeth Taylor avoided the show for 29 years because she was terrified moment like this, comfortable with Johnny. He had that aura very much like this, just, I mean, all the fear.

• 1:25:12Mike Rowe?

  Who peed their pants? Somebody famous peed their pants.

• 1:25:15Speaker 02

  I didn't know that. Robert Smigel, who wrote a sketch where they had Dom DeLuise, played by Chris Barley, pee himself and that was at SNL, did something, but I don't know, maybe somebody did pee themselves.

• 1:25:26Speaker 01

  No, it's in your book, yeah. It's in your book.

• 1:25:27Speaker 02

  Did I really have that in my book? I wrote it, I should know that.

• 1:25:31Mike Rowe?

  I don't know that it was somebody you interviewed, but it might have been somebody telling an anecdotal third party story.

• 1:25:36Speaker 02

  It could have been.

• 1:25:37Mike Rowe?

  I don't want to say, it wasn't Michael Douglas?

• 1:25:40Speaker 02

  Oh, oh yeah, it was, it was Michael Douglas.

• 1:25:42Mike Rowe?

  It was Michael Douglas peeing his pants.

• 1:25:44Speaker 02

  He did, he wet himself, I can't believe I forgot about this. This was Michael Douglas, I wrote a book.

• 1:25:48Mike Rowe?

  I'm sure he's relieved you remember.

• 1:25:50Speaker 02

  I wrote a book. This was in New York in 1970, when it was first time on Carson, he was backstage and he wet himself and they took a hairdryer and he was so nervous. And talk about guest host, Roger Moore is James Bond, he's guest hosting The Tonight Show, he's like, I can do this. He was, he sweat through his suit and during the commercials, they had to take a hairdryer to try to dry the perspiration, and this is James Bond.

• 1:26:15Mike Rowe?

  To your earlier point, man, he made it look so easy.

• 1:26:19Speaker 02

  He really did.

• 1:26:20Mike Rowe?

  That even smart people assumed it was easy.

• 1:26:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was the hardest gig in show business, that's why.

• 1:26:27Mike Rowe?

  It's the ultimate magic.

• 1:26:27Speaker 02

  That's why so many people turned the thing down. Seinfeld's like, why would I do this? No, it's the hardest gig. I don't know how somebody does it. You can be a great stand-up, but be able to sit down and be interesting and funny consistently five nights a week, it's a skillset.

• 1:26:39Mike Rowe?

  And a traffic cop.

• 1:26:40Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:26:41Mike Rowe?

  It's a, it's a very, very. Codified set of muscles.

• 1:26:46Speaker 02

  The one thing about this that I really like is back then, when I was doing the podcast and talked to almost 400 people and then ultimately for the book, more than 400, is that Zoom did not exist. I couldn't do the podcast remotely. So I'm in people's homes, I'm in their offices, and I'm so bad with tech, I don't know how to set up two microphones. So I have one microphone handheld and the person's like.

• 1:27:07Mike Rowe?

  She's like Hugh Howser, man on the street.

• 1:27:09Speaker 02

  Yes. So I'm going back and forth. And there is this thing where we're really close. I don't mean it for it to be like that. And it was just this connection. And Carson, Carson had that with his. I mean, he was able to do that. You're able to do it. And.

• 1:27:22Mike Rowe?

  What surprised you? I mean, you, you must have gone into this project with a certain expectation. What really took you aback?

• 1:27:32Speaker 02

  I didn't think the guy had any friends. And I thought he was cold and alive. You've mentioned Henry Bushkin's book. I mean, they tried to imply he had no friends. He said, Bushkin said that Carson died alone, which isn't true. Carson died with his family. His wife was there, his two kids at the time, his other family. They had a memorial for him, a family memorial that was private on a boat. It was extremely emotional. But I did listen to what Ms. Rivers would say about Carson being a nasty man. And somebody gave me Mr. Bushkin's book, and I just was convinced that Carson didn't have friends. And then I'm sitting down talking to the friends. And it was, I had no idea. The generosity, I mean, people like Lonnie Anderson telling me, no, Johnny finds out my mom is dying of

• 1:28:14Speaker 02

  cancer, and I'm in San Francisco shooting a show. And Johnny said, here's my plane. You'll fly to see your mom whenever you want. And.

• 1:28:21Mike Rowe?

  Jeez.

• 1:28:21Speaker 02

  He didn't want the stories. But like Burt Reynolds, when he, there was rumor he had AIDS. And Lonnie Anderson told me so many of their friends abandoned them. Johnny was in their living room with them. And Johnny never, and this is when Burt's career wasn't going well. Johnny, this is what consistently they said. If Johnny was your friend, he was your friend. And their loyalty that existed was like no other. But if he was hurt, it was over. That was the thing.

• 1:28:44Mike Rowe?

  It's so amazing, man. Isn't it? The fragility and the loyalty. Again, two sides, same coin. Just amazing.

• 1:28:55Mike Rowe?

  Bushkin was his attorney.

• 1:28:57Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 1:28:58Mike Rowe?

  And a real trusted confidant.

• 1:29:01Speaker 02

  1970 to, I think it was like 1987, it was his, um, yeah, it was the, the person he spent the most time with and they, um, Judy Bushkin, who's not alive anymore, the wife said that, I mean, Henry and Carson were closer, as close as anybody can possibly be. Bushkin in his book later said, you know, we were never friends, but she said, everyone else I talked to said that, yeah, they were friends. And Bushkin in an interview said, we were friends. And

• 1:29:24Mike Rowe?

  What was his book called?

• 1:29:26Speaker 02

  Johnny Carson. I can't believe I'm selling books for him, but I've never met him. I've never asked to talk to him. I have no desire to talk to somebody. I talked to an attorney about their former, uh, client. I mean, it's legal what he did. He had a, I believe when he did, wrote the book, he, even though Carson was gone, he had to, um, he not, um, practice an attorney anymore. I don't think he could be. Uh, but that and Miss Rivers were the things that I'm like, this guy doesn't have friends, not a good guy. And I was shocked when I started talking to people. And I mean, I talked to over 400 people. And I mean, other than he was a bad drinker, none of those stories came. I mean, Miss Rivers wouldn't talk to me, Wayne Newton, who has problems, wouldn't talk to me. Uh, but I can count on one hand, the number of people that had problems with him, real problems with him.

• 1:30:08Speaker 02

  And in, in this case with Miss Rivers or Wayne Newton, I can go into what actually did happen, at least according to Carson and people that knew him.

• 1:30:16Mike Rowe?

  But how in the world could you be Johnny Carson and interview that many people and not run afoul of our couple?

• 1:30:23Speaker 02

  I thought that I was gonna get just horror stories and they did not come to my, um, I mean, yeah, I was very surprised.

• 1:30:31Mike Rowe?

  Was that gratifying? Because you loved the guy.

• 1:30:33Speaker 02

  Yeah. I thought I was gonna do seven episodes and it was gonna be almost all negative and I didn't wanna put something out in the universe. I'm like, I'm gonna be disappointed. I don't even know if I'm gonna release this. And then I talked to the people that knew him, the staff, and it was just like one thing after another of things.

• 1:30:48Mike Rowe?

  I didn't quite connect these dots. You.

• 1:30:53Mike Rowe?

  Did, how many episodes of this Carson podcast?

• 1:30:55Speaker 02

  Carson podcast was like almost 400. They're still up. Carsonpodcast.com and they're still up. And yeah, I talked to a lot of, I mean, 50 people at least are not with us anymore. It's heartbreaking, but like every, you know, everyone from Regis to younger people like Bob Saget. I mean, I wanted to get all their stories with Carson.

• 1:31:12Mike Rowe?

  So you got them for the pod?

• 1:31:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:31:14Mike Rowe?

  But you also got all the data for the book?

• 1:31:18Speaker 02

  I didn't realize that when I did that, that that would happen. I promise you, I did not think I was gonna do a book. It was eight years of people being like, you have to write a book. And I'm like, I can't write a book. I don't know how to write a book. I've never done a book. And then the stories just kept pouring in.

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• 1:32:02Speaker 02

  But I would meet people at parties that were, a lot of times comedy, entertainment people. They're like, so what do you do? And I'm like, I'm doing a podcast about Johnny Carson. Oh, I heard he was a terrible person. I said, name three people that have problems with him and they can't do it. Now, that was, I was like, I need to, I felt like I had to write a book to refute at least from Carson's friends who this guy was. I'm not saying he was perfect. He fart wasn't. And he would talk about the drinking and we'd go into the drinking stories in there. I mean, he would say, some people get fondloving. He said he would turn into Attila the Hun. It was one drink too many and he would wanna fight everybody.

• 1:32:36Mike Rowe?

  So crazy.

• 1:32:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:32:38Mike Rowe?

  And he was a bit of a daredevil, really?

• 1:32:40Speaker 02

  He was. I mean, he was a daredevil in the fact that he, I mean, early Tonight Show, he was jumping out of airplanes. He was pitching to Mickey Mantle and Roger Maris at Yankee Stadium. That was in his first week of the show. And then he was on playing with the Jets at the Polo Grounds, racing cars at Indianapolis Motor Speedway with Parnell Jones and Mario Andretti.

• 1:33:02Mike Rowe?

  Oh, I remember. And, well, he had a great line to Andretti after he, I mean, he was, he was driving full on.

• 1:33:08Speaker 02

  Yes, oh, he was going, I mean, I talked to Andretti about it, he was really nice to tell me the story.

• 1:33:13Mike Rowe?

  Of course you did, of course you did. So I'm talking, I'm, oh, Andretti, unbelievable.

• 1:33:18Speaker 02

  I've never, yeah, for the book, I just needed to get the story, so, I mean, I felt like I wanted to get the inside for people.

• 1:33:24Mike Rowe?

  I'm going back to the gold mine, and not, just not the money, and I hope you make a bunch of it.

• 1:33:31Speaker 02

  Oh, thank you.

• 1:33:32Mike Rowe?

  But the wealth of experience, I mean, to grow up as a fan, right?

• 1:33:39Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:33:39Mike Rowe?

  And then to take the object of your fandom and make it the subject of a pod, and then the subject of a book, and then in order to do both those things, to come back here to LA to interview only the biggest names in the entertainment industry.

• 1:33:57Speaker 02

  People were nice to talk to me.

• 1:33:58Mike Rowe?

  Like, 400 of them.

• 1:33:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, at Doc Severnson, I mean, the people, yeah, the people that were there, the power players all wanted to talk to me, and they would thank me, and I didn't understand for a long time why they were thanking me, and then I realized it was the best time for a lot of these people, it was like their college experience. Like, someone that had a great college experience, the best part of their life, and they never get to talk about it in detail. And that was Carson, and that was The Tonight Show, and that was the man who for 30 years entertained us, and then in 1992 broke our hearts, and for two years, I mean, he did, people say, you know, he disappeared, but for two years, we got to see him in the American Teacher Awards, Bob Hope's 90th Birthday, The Simpsons, Presidential Medal of Honor of George Herbert Walker Bush at the White House,

• 1:34:41Speaker 02

  and then Letterman in May of 94, he did a walk-on, and that was the last time we saw the guy.

• 1:34:46Mike Rowe?

  He loved Hope, but he didn't want to be Hope.

• 1:34:49Speaker 02

  He loved Hope. People think that Johnny did not like Hope. He liked him as a person, but it was the last maybe five or six years of Johnny's show that Hope could not go on very, he wasn't, he just was not where he was before. He couldn't hear, he was reading lips, and sometimes what Johnny would ask him wouldn't sync up. And Johnny had so much reverence that he would put Hope on, but he's, he would think, why is this guy degrading himself? Why is he performing, and he just thought that this guy was so good and so... So talented, I have so much respect for him. Why would he do this? That's why Carson, when he was 66, said, "I did it. I don't want to be Hope." He thought Lucille Ball coming in the 1980s was a mistake. "I don't want to be, I want to be remembered for doing the best I could do."

• 1:35:33Mike Rowe?

  "I don't want to stay at the party too long."

• 1:35:35Speaker 02

  He broke his heart going to see Frank Sinatra, who he loved. And Sinatra was getting lyrics wrong. I mean, they were up on the jumbotron, the lyrics, and he still was having trouble. And it's like, why is Frank doing this? Where that was what Hope is. But when Hope called Johnny and said, "Will you do my 90th?" And even though Johnny's retired, said, "I'm there." And, but that was... Loyalty. It was, it was. And then Johnny was in Santa Monica, by here, just taking pictures and really thought about it. Every time he'd say, "You know what? I did it." And one other reason I think that he did disappear is he's quit smoking and gained weight. And I think it was a cosmetic issue probably as well.

• 1:36:11Mike Rowe?

  Well, he did get his eyes done.

• 1:36:12Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:36:13Mike Rowe?

  Got all those people jacked up on gobbling.

• 1:36:17Speaker 02

  That was one of the low points, yes.

• 1:36:19Mike Rowe?

  The only point in your book, there was only one section.

• 1:36:22Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:36:22Mike Rowe?

  Where I slammed it shut and said, "This can't be true."

• 1:36:24Speaker 02

  Okay, let's do it.

• 1:36:26Mike Rowe?

  Well, you already mentioned him twice. It's Dick Clark.

• 1:36:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:36:29Mike Rowe?

  You would have no way of knowing this, but two famous people gave me advice and took me by the scruff of the neck and kind of resuscitated my career. The first was Joan Rivers. The second was Dick Clark. And both of them got on his naughty list and basically stayed there.

• 1:36:47Speaker 02

  They did business, Clark and him did business. I mean, Clark was known for being very frugal, very generous in terms of advice and gave people, a lot of people work. But, yeah, I was surprised about the Dick Clark thing.

• 1:36:59Mike Rowe?

  I was too.

• 1:37:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, they did business, but, yeah, if Johnny was hurt...

• 1:37:04Mike Rowe?

  Didn't he say something? He must have been, "Oh, I remember." So Carson is hosting Who Do You Trust? Ironically. And the network wants to goose its ratings, so they put it on in the middle of Bandstand.

• 1:37:17Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:37:18Mike Rowe?

  Dick Clark is hosting Bandstand.

• 1:37:20Speaker 02

  He doesn't like that.

• 1:37:20Mike Rowe?

  And he's like, "Get this thing out of the middle of my show. What am I doing?" Carson gets wind of that. Got a memory like an elephant.

• 1:37:27Speaker 02

  Exactly, and then the relationship's over.

• 1:37:29Mike Rowe?

  Done.

• 1:37:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, they did business decades later, but you're not coming on my show. Yeah.

• 1:37:35Mike Rowe?

  You know what Dick Clark said to me once?

• 1:37:36Speaker 02

  Tell me.

• 1:37:37Mike Rowe?

  You'll love this. I was, I was hosting a game show called No Relation. Up at CBS, Farmers Market, Fairfax.

• 1:37:45Speaker 02

  Oh, wow. I love Television City, that Jack Benny's old studio. Are you kidding me?

• 1:37:49Mike Rowe?

  I was, I shared a dressing room with Bob Barker.

• 1:37:53Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 1:37:54Mike Rowe?

  So Bob's doing The Price is Right during the week, and I'm doing No Relation on the weekend.

• 1:38:00Speaker 02

  He gets hosted for Johnny once, but keep talking.

• 1:38:02Mike Rowe?

  So Dick Clark is the EP on the thing, and he hired me. And, you know, I'm doing the show, and, you know, I walk out, and I'm like, hi, everybody, I'm Mike Rowe. This is No Relation, the only show, blah, blah, blah, going to the thing. And the only time Dick ever stopped me, the only time, he didn't even tell me to do it again. He just said, I'm gonna make a suggestion.

• 1:38:25Speaker 02

  That's classy.

• 1:38:26Mike Rowe?

  And, and you're a smart guy.

• 1:38:30Mike Rowe?

  Like, I'm listening. He says, when you walk out there and you say, hi, everybody.

• 1:38:36Mike Rowe?

  Well, there are people at home sitting by themselves. They're not an everybody. They're just home watching you. It's just you and them, you know? Don't break the spell. Just say hi.

• 1:38:50Speaker 02

  Hi. That's a really good note. I would never think about something like that.

• 1:38:53Mike Rowe?

  From a broadcaster.

• 1:38:55Speaker 02

  But just the fact that he was so generous, the way he said it, and so gentle. You know, Ed McMahon would probably never would have gotten The Tonight Show, and certainly, who do you trust if it wasn't for Dick Clark? He did a lot of great stuff.

• 1:39:05Mike Rowe?

  Amazing.

• 1:39:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, and McMahon, 30 years of employment, and boy, did he milk it. Star Search, 100, over 100 endorsements, Broadway, movies.

• 1:39:17Mike Rowe?

  Wasn't Ed hawking stuff on the boardwalk in, like, New Jersey?

• 1:39:21Speaker 02

  His dad owned a bingo hall, and Ed is a teenager. He was selling, was it Morris metric slicers? And Jack Klugman and Charles Bronson are roommates. They're not famous. They're acting students, and they're working for Ed's dad in the bingo hall. And Ed is teaching Bronson and Klugman on how to sell and how to really pitch. I mean, Ed was born to do that. I mean, the best thing that Ed ever did, the smartest, shrewdest thing is Johnny was not gonna bring Ed to The Tonight Show because Johnny did not want to remind people he was a game show. Show host and Ed McMahon was his announcer on this. And he wanted somebody from the West Coast, Johnny's friend Hank Sims. Hank didn't want to relocate and Johnny, or Ed took Johnny out to dinner at Danny's Hideaway. Ed got on his hands and knees, tears, begging Johnny, you have to take me.

• 1:40:06Speaker 02

  I just got a new home, King of Prussia, please Johnny is embarrassed. Fine, I'll take you 30 years of employment. Those shows only lasted five years. I mean, but Ed McMahon, smartest thing he ever did.

• 1:40:16Mike Rowe?

  Incredible.

• 1:40:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:40:18Mike Rowe?

  Chuck, who was the guy, publishers clearing house who came in here?

• 1:40:23Speaker 02

  Oh, he was great. I did. Yeah, yeah.

• 1:40:27Speaker 02

  No, I watched that.

• 1:40:28Mike Rowe?

  Good lord, dude.

• 1:40:29Speaker 02

  Cause everything was going well until they changed it up a little bit. And then they started getting the lawsuits, right?

• 1:40:34Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. See, I do watch.

• 1:40:36Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:36Speaker 02

  I try to, yeah, if I'm doing somebody's show.

• 1:40:38Mike Rowe?

  Guy brought me a phallus carved out of wood that he was presented with at some sort of retreat. Anyway, um, full disclosure.

• 1:40:49Speaker 02

  Full disclosure, let's do it.

• 1:40:50Mike Rowe?

  When Chuck told me about your book, my first thought was, I want to talk to this guy. Because, and this is why I keep bringing up Bushkin. Before this podcast was Conversations, I was writing these short stories. Did Chuck send you one?

• 1:41:03Speaker 02

  I did, I listened to it about New York.

• 1:41:05Mike Rowe?

  Yes.

• 1:41:05Speaker 02

  There was a lot of the stuff that was true, but there were definitely details. And I can debunk what wasn't true if you would like me to.

• 1:41:11Mike Rowe?

  Well, that, that's what this podcast used to be. I used to write these short stories.

• 1:41:16Speaker 02

  You did a good job.

• 1:41:17Mike Rowe?

  And thank you, but it was based on Bushkin's book. Now, you've got a problem with Bushkin's book. So the way Bushkin heard it, or at least the way he told it, was the way I read it.

• 1:41:27Speaker 02

  You did.

• 1:41:27Mike Rowe?

  And so that's the way I wrote it. And so I thought, you know what? I, I take a lot of liberties with the stories and I make up dialogue and stuff. But tell me what I basically got right and what's wrong and what's verifiable. About the night that Johnny Carson ultimately invoked.

• 1:41:47Mike Rowe?

  The wrath of the mafia.

• 1:41:49Speaker 02

  The thing that was wrong and some of the details that were left out, first of all, it was 1971. It wasn't 1970. And he said-

• 1:41:57Mike Rowe?

  I can live with that, damn it.

• 1:41:58Speaker 02

  But no, he said that, this is Mr. Bushkin, I want to make it very clear, said that he got this from Joyce DeWitt, who started on Three's company. She heard it from Jilly Rizzo, so this is remote. He, um, he said that-

• 1:42:09Mike Rowe?

  Jilly's, by the way, famous watering hole, New York-

• 1:42:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, Carson Wollap play, Sinatra country.

• 1:42:14Mike Rowe?

  And everybody loved it.

• 1:42:15Speaker 02

  So, apparently, um, yeah, Carson hit on a mafia, so his girlfriend, there was a hit that was placed. And, um, Mr. Bushkin in his book said that, um, the way he heard it, uh, George Wood, who was a William Morris, um, agent smoothed over things in 1970. George Wood died in 1963. It took me two minutes on Google to find out that that wasn't true. So, there, there you go. That's one thing that I'm just like, why just not take the time to see?

• 1:42:42Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:42Speaker 02

  Um, it was really easy.

• 1:42:44Mike Rowe?

  Is there any disputing the basic story that Carson goes in, hits a few of his, uh, vodka sours, sees a beautiful girl?

• 1:42:57Speaker 02

  There's a lot more to it.

• 1:42:58Mike Rowe?

  Okay.

• 1:42:59Speaker 02

  Okay, so it's 1971, Joey Gallo, Crazy Joe Gallo, uh, mafia, just got out of jail. He was there for 10 years. Um, this is in the spring. Um, this is at Jilly's. Um, and he went to use the restroom and Carson was there with Ed McMahon and Robert Coe, Ed's manager. And Johnny, when he drank, you did not want to be around him. He did something inappropriate to, um, Gallo's then girlfriend. Uh, Ga- and Jilly Rose was like to McMahon, get Carson the blank out of here. Got him out and Gallo put a, came out and put a hit on Carson. That 100% did happen. Two things, um, happened right then and there. Um, Sinatra and Carson were friends. They met in St. Louis and, um, Sinatra sat down with Gallo. Sinatra knew a lot of these types.

• 1:43:41Speaker 02

  He knew Gallo and he said, I need a favor. Gallo said, name it. He said, Johnny Carson, you need to leave him alone. And Gallo said, you tell Carson he only lives and breathes because he knows Frank Sinatra. Another thing though happened that NBC had to do. Is that the acting boss at the time was Joe Colombo and Colombo and Gal hated each other, but they wanted to just the NBC wanted to just make sure that everything was good. So Colombo was the top boss. So what NBC had to do, and I watched this with my own eyes, NBC in prime time, not even NBC News in prime time, they did a favorable story on Joe Colombo. I watched it. There was no reason for them to do this.

• 1:44:23Mike Rowe?

  I watched it too.

• 1:44:24Speaker 02

  I was like, I have to watch this with my own eyes. And that was, those were the two things. Sinatra and the NBC doing a positive story on on Colombo.

• 1:44:33Mike Rowe?

  It was, it was, it was positive.

• 1:44:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:44:36Mike Rowe?

  And the shred of plausibility that justified it was that Colombo had formed the Italian American Anti-Defamation League.

• 1:44:44Speaker 02

  He was getting an award.

• 1:44:45Mike Rowe?

  He was getting a award and he was basically trying to make the point that, hey, you know what? We're suffering from stigmas and stereotypes. We hardworking Italians and there's a bunch of nonsense about the mob.

• 1:44:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:44:56Mike Rowe?

  So NBC does a fluff piece.

• 1:44:59Speaker 02

  They did. There was no point for them to do it.

• 1:45:01Mike Rowe?

  And then all is forgiven.

• 1:45:02Speaker 02

  It was, and they didn't even put that on NBC News. They put it in prime time to have more millions of viewers. It was a prime time news show.

• 1:45:09Mike Rowe?

  Was Carson roughed up?

• 1:45:10Speaker 02

  To my knowledge, no. I mean, the whole invention of him being thrown downstairs didn't, to my knowledge, didn't happen.

• 1:45:17Mike Rowe?

  I heard he was in his penthouse.

• 1:45:18Speaker 02

  No, that didn't happen.

• 1:45:20Mike Rowe?

  And recuperating for a couple of days.

• 1:45:21Speaker 02

  Um, to my knowledge, that did not happen. I mean, he might've been holed up at the holed up for a few days at the UN Plaza, but to my knowledge, he wasn't roughed up or anything. I know Mr. Bushkin also said, and this is true, there was somebody that had mob ties. His name was Keith. What's his name? I forget his name, but there was a gentleman that Mr. Bushkin said that Carson was doing jokes about this guy and he was mafia related and that somebody roughed up Carson. I don't know if that happened or not.

• 1:45:47Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:47Speaker 02

  But, you know, it's easy to wait till somebody's gone before, you know, I mean. Stories like Frank Gifford, like that whole thing with Bushkin claimed about Carson's wife, it wasn't Frank Gifford.

• 1:45:59Mike Rowe?

  What was it?

• 1:46:00Speaker 02

  It was a race car driver named Peter Revson, who the media made out to be the heir to the Revlon throne. It's a lot, it's um.

• 1:46:06Mike Rowe?

  So it was Bushkin that said that Frank Gifford?

• 1:46:08Speaker 02

  Yes, was having an affair with, um, yeah, yeah. It was Johnny's, um, second wife. She was going on the weekends to, uh, car races. She was, didn't like New York. She wasn't feeling well and she would go to car races and fell in love with this race car driver. The New Year's Eve or Christmas, um, before she walked in and Johnny was with, uh, a woman and, um, she knew that Johnny was not being faithful. And so she, yeah, Johnny was very suspicious, got a, a private investigator and they went over to, they found where they thought that would be her secret apartment. And, um, it was very obvious to everybody that, yeah, she was in a relationship with this guy, Peter Revson, who was, and then, um, there might've been a framed photo of her and Gifford.

• 1:46:49Speaker 02

  They dated, they definitely did date pre-Johnnie Carson, but it wasn't Gifford, it was Revson.

• 1:46:55Mike Rowe?

  Mark, you're.

• 1:46:55Speaker 02

  Is that anybody still, everyone still with us? I hope so.

• 1:46:58Mike Rowe?

  Your curiosity really is, I won't say insatiable, because I think anything can be satiated, but it certainly is profound.

• 1:47:05Speaker 02

  I try.

• 1:47:06Mike Rowe?

  And it certainly is targeted.

• 1:47:07Speaker 02

  I try.

• 1:47:08Mike Rowe?

  Are you going to continue to be a comedian or is this, are you going to dine out on this?

• 1:47:13Speaker 02

  Am I gonna die? I hope not.

• 1:47:14Mike Rowe?

  No, no, dine out.

• 1:47:15Speaker 02

  Oh, dine out. I like to just follow my curiosity. I mean, I did these social experiments for the longest time where it's like, is this possible? I had a fear of flying, a real genuine fear of flying. And I said, I want to stay on a commercial airplane for a whole month to get over my fear of flying. I can't get on and off and I have to force myself to fly and I did it. So it was, it's a lot of things like that where I'll get the idea and I'll just subject myself.

• 1:47:38Mike Rowe?

  Well, I'm glad you did it, because you, you flew out here.

• 1:47:40Speaker 02

  I did, I did, yeah. I set a Guinness World Record at the time. No, I'm, that could, all the pilots wanted to meet me and they would say, Mark, all of, of turbulences is being in the ocean, going over a wave, it's driving over gravel. So, yeah, I just, I think if you follow your curiosity in a positive way, you can't go wrong.

• 1:47:55Mike Rowe?

  It'll take you some, well.

• 1:47:57Speaker 02

  Maybe.

• 1:47:58Mike Rowe?

  You can.

• 1:47:58Speaker 02

  I guess so.

• 1:47:59Mike Rowe?

  But at least you come by it honest.

• 1:48:00Speaker 02

  Yes, try to.

• 1:48:02Mike Rowe?

  Let's land the plane then.

• 1:48:03Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:48:05Mike Rowe?

  I'll try, but you can answer in whatever way you want. You've got, I mean, I said kind of glibly and I'm going to stick by it. This book is amazing.

• 1:48:15Speaker 02

  Oh, thank you, sir.

• 1:48:16Mike Rowe?

  It's called Love Johnny Carson. But I'm still not 100% convinced it's really about Johnny Carson. And now, especially having talked to you, I feel like it has a lot to do with you and a lot to do with the 400 individuals.

• 1:48:31Speaker 02

  That's fair.

• 1:48:32Mike Rowe?

  You interviewed.

• 1:48:33Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:48:33Mike Rowe?

  And there's something, there's something about this thing that, what's the expression? The, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

• 1:48:41Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:48:43Mike Rowe?

  It's a fairly simple book with a very comforting format, but it is drinking from a fire hose. And if you drink from it and get through the whole thing, you're gonna wind up with insight, questions,

• 1:48:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:48:58Mike Rowe?

  and a whole lot of stories you can share with your friends that are gonna create the illusion of heightened interest, which, let's face it, Mark, that's what we all aspire to, really.

• 1:49:09Speaker 02

  I think so. Sure.

• 1:49:11Mike Rowe?

  You'll buy all that?

• 1:49:12Speaker 02

  Sure. Yes, I like it. No, I mean, definitely, those, the people, I mean, just when I got the tears from people and people thanking me to write this book, the people that were there, that were in the trenches with Johnny, that worked for him, the people that were on the show, um, yeah, it's really a testament to Carson and everybody that went through that show.

• 1:49:29Mike Rowe?

  Top three interviews, your top three favorites.

• 1:49:31Speaker 02

  Oh, gosh. Howard Smith, who was Johnny's friend, who was just, um, not in entertainment at all and just talk about John. I mean, I talk about the John Club. It was a small group of people. He was John.

• 1:49:41Mike Rowe?

  Here's John.

• 1:49:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, I thought he was good. Peter LaSalle, Johnny's producer.

• 1:49:45Mike Rowe?

  Indispensable.

• 1:49:46Speaker 02

  That was amazing to hear the stories.

• 1:49:48Mike Rowe?

  The host whisperer.

• 1:49:49Speaker 02

  Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Um, he, Arthur Godfrey, Dave Letterman, Tom Snyder, um, Craig Ferguson, um, yeah, so I think those two, and maybe Melvin Kaminsky, Mel Brooks, maybe. I mean, he was on Johnny's first show. It's like, Mark, I was 29 and I'm with Groucho Marx because Groucho introduced, was the surprise guest, introduced Johnny. I got Groucho's autograph, kid from Brooklyn, and I'm on the desk, um, mocking Tony Bennett, who was also on the show, and Tony was upset, and so, yeah, just hearing those stories was great.

• 1:50:18Mike Rowe?

  Well, your book is like a bowl of warm milk. It's just filled with familiarity and fun, and you've done a savvy, maybe even a cunning thing.

• 1:50:29Speaker 02

  Oh, thank you, sir.

• 1:50:29Mike Rowe?

  For a comedian.

• 1:50:30Speaker 02

  It means a lot.

• 1:50:31Mike Rowe?

  Well, look, man, I, I call them as I see them, and you've, it's very, very difficult to find a way through. To our earlier point, it's a cluttered, noisy landscape.

• 1:50:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:50:41Mike Rowe?

  It's a great book.

• 1:50:42Speaker 02

  Oh, thank you, sir. I really appreciate that. Yeah.

• 1:50:44Mike Rowe?

  It's a Mr. Sir, by the way.

• 1:50:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was one of those things where I just wanted to do with this, the book, Justice, and just tell the truth and my knowledge and the people that I talked to.

• 1:50:54Mike Rowe?

  All right, it's available now, wherever fine books are sold and so forth.

• 1:50:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, Amazon, I did the audible over five days.

• 1:50:59Mike Rowe?

  Oh, yeah?

• 1:51:00Speaker 02

  I did my best, I did my best. No, you did great, that's what I'm listening to. Oh, thank you.

• 1:51:04Mike Rowe?

  Oh, you're listening?

• 1:51:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:51:05Mike Rowe?

  Chuck never learned to read, so this whole audio thing is just like, gosh. No, that, boy, we could talk about that, too. What a different, talk about a different set of muscles to sit there for six hours and read.

• 1:51:17Speaker 02

  I try to say yes to things that scare me, that scared me, but I was like, this might be the only time I ever have this opportunity.

• 1:51:24Mike Rowe?

  Oh, the compliment I wanted to pay in the beginning, but forgot that we'll end it with now, is you really are a great example of why I wanted to do this podcast.

• 1:51:33Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 1:51:34Mike Rowe?

  You're a, with respect, you're not a celebrity.

• 1:51:37Speaker 02

  No, not even close.

• 1:51:39Mike Rowe?

  You have a white, hot, burning category interest that's unique, you're credible, and your knowledge on your subject is encyclopedic, but there's something beyond that, too, which makes you more than interesting in a passing way. So that's my way of saying thank you for flying across the country to do this.

• 1:52:02Speaker 02

  This was so much fun, I'm glad we got to do this, it was an honor.

• 1:52:05Mike Rowe?

  Were we rolling on any of this, Taylor? Fantastic.

• 1:52:08Speaker 02

  Is this longer than Peter's episode? Because Peter's episode was... Could be. Oh, my goodness, yeah.

• 1:52:13Mike Rowe?

  Mark Malkoff is his name, Love Johnny Carson is his book, you'd be a fool not to get one and read it. Thanks again.

• 1:52:21Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:52:59Speaker 05

  I hate to ask, I hate to beg, I hate to be a nudge. But in this world, the advertisers really like to judge. You don't need to write a bunch, just a line or two. All you've got to do is leave a quick five-star review. Not four. All you've got to do is leave a quick five-star review. And not three. All you've got to do is leave a quick five-star review. Definitely not two. All you've got to do is leave a quick five-star review. We need five. All you've got to do is leave a quick... Even if you hate it. Five... Especially if you hate it. ...review. Thank you.

• 1:53:34Speaker 06

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• 1:54:04Speaker 07

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