469: Rep. Riley Moore—I'm Just a Bill

Mike sits down with West Virginia Congressman Riley Moore https://rileymoore.house.gov/, whose path to Capitol Hill began with a welding torch. Moore shares why he chose the skilled trades early in life, what that work taught him about dignity and opportunity, and how those lessons now shape his approach to policy. The discussion centers on Moore's new legislation, the Jumpstart Savings Act, a proposal designed to remove financial barriers to apprenticeships, tools, and certifications—and to breathe new life into America's skilled trades by treating them with the same respect long afforded to four-year degrees.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Mike Rowe?

  Hello friends, it's me Mike Rowe with what you call a bonus episode of The Way I Heard It. Chuck, this was not entirely planned, although somewhat anticipated. And it's just one of those things that turned out to be meatier than I thought it otherwise might be.

• 0:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, it was supposed to be a hot take on this particular topic, which is near and dear to all of our hearts here at MicroWorks. But Representative Riley Moore was pretty representative, and he really brought it.

• 0:35Mike Rowe?

  We're calling it "I'm Just a Bill" because currently, the Jump Start Bill is precisely that, sitting there on the steps of Capitol Hill, hoping that one day, it will become a law. I say this as though I'm anthropomorphizing the bill in much the same way our friends did on Schoolhouse Rock once upon a time.

• 0:56Speaker 01

  Schoolhouse Rock, man, that was great, yeah.

• 0:58Mike Rowe?

  You know, I would love to get somebody on the pod, if they're still around, who was instrumental in making Schoolhouse Rock.

• 1:06Speaker 01

  Like they played an instrument on Schoolhouse Rock?

• 1:10Mike Rowe?

  That would make them profoundly instrumental. Anyway, yeah, "I Am Just a Bill" was a terrific song, and it's impossible not to think of it. What Riley Moore has done, he's a congressman from West Virginia, he had this idea to take, basically, the 529 savings accounts for education, right? This is something that he was in charge of when he was the, what was he before this? Secretary of Treasury, I think.

• 1:37Speaker 01

  He did it on a local basis in West Virginia, and now he's trying to bring it national, the Jump Start program.

• 1:43Mike Rowe?

  Right. What Jump Start does, basically, is it lets a tradesperson use tax-deferred funds that grow in an account to buy tools, to buy a work truck, to buy, whether it's scissors for a cosmetologist, or welding gear for a welder who's hanging out his own shingle. It's a way to help defray the extraordinary capital cost of becoming a freelance tradesman, which is a huge problem. I've been waiting for somebody to do this for years. And it's come out of West Virginia and the bill looks great. And of course, there's some knuckleheads who are opposing it, but for the life of me, I don't really understand

• 2:27Mike Rowe?

  why, because this really does put a skilled tradesperson on, I think, equal footing, or at least their vocations on equal footing with anything that would come out of a four year school.

• 2:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. And what I like best about Representative Moore is that he himself is a tradesman. He was a welder and he knows of which he speaks. And I think that this is going to help people, you know, like a family can start one of these plans and put money away for their child to start a business, or it also works for trade schools as well.

• 3:07Mike Rowe?

  Well, obviously, my slip is showing, you know? I mean, as I mentioned in our conversation, we've got like 3,500 people who have come through MicroWorks and all of them would have benefited from this. And the other thing, spoiler alert, because we learned this at the end of our shorter than normal conversation, is that you can, if this passes, if this bill becomes a law, you'll be able to take your 529 donations down the road and convert them and use them to purchase the tools that you would need to go to work as a tradesman. And look, man, I take it back. My slip isn't showing. This just is common sense. There's just no way we're going to close the skills gap in this

• 3:50Mike Rowe?

  country if we don't start passing legislation that affirmatively benefits the people who are willing to master a skill that's in demand. That's what this is. Also, I should mention, as I do in our shorter than normal conversation, that this is a first. We've never had an elected official on the podcast who's actually in office.

• 4:11Speaker 01

  That's right. Yeah. First time ever. Yeah.

• 4:14Mike Rowe?

  Yeah. Vivek came on before he ran.

• 4:17Speaker 01

  Rick Perry after.

• 4:18Mike Rowe?

  Rick Perry after he ran. And of course, Pete Hegseth before he was nominated to become the Secretary of War. It was also weird to see Representative Riley there, virtually in front of the Capitol. I was just there last week, snowed in and so frustrated with that city, man. They did not clear the streets, Chuck. For five days, those streets were not cleared, schools were closed. I don't know what's

• 4:45Speaker 01

  Inexcusable.

• 4:47Mike Rowe?

  Honestly, it is. I'm sorry, Mayor Bowser, but no one spends more money on their citizens than DC spends. It's like $28,000 a year per capita. And they just can't, uh, they just can't seem to clean the streets. It's mind boggling to me. Have I said too much?

• 5:07Speaker 01

  Maybe, maybe.

• 5:08Mike Rowe?

  Well, too bad. It's a bonus episode. I retain the right for certain liberties. I think you're gonna like this guy. He's a politician. He represents the great state of West Virginia. He's worked a lot of jobs and he's got an idea that I not only think obviously is worth celebrating, but I've, I've offered my, uh, my assistance for what that's worth, to see this little bill, sitting there on Capitol Hill, become a law. I think the country'd be better for it. Representative Riley Moore, right after this.

• 5:44Mike Rowe?

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• 6:25Mike Rowe?

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• 7:11Mike Rowe?

  Congressman, one of us is seriously underdressed. And I'm pretty sure it's me.

• 7:17Speaker 02

  One of us is overdressed, and that'd be me. But, uh, part of the job here.

• 7:22Mike Rowe?

  Well, look, I mean, looks matter. I get that. In fact, wait a minute. You're not really standing there in front of the Capitol, are you? That's some sort of fancy effect?

• 7:30Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no. It's freezing out here, so...

• 7:34Mike Rowe?

  Where are you in the world, exactly?

• 7:37Speaker 02

  Uh, so I am in Washington DC right now. So this is like one of the recording studios here in the Capitol.

• 7:42Mike Rowe?

  Oh, well, I literally just missed you. I was there four days ago. I had some meetings in the Pentagon, if I can be slightly mysterious. But of course, nobody could make it in. So I was a block from the Pentagon, doing this routine, Riverside, with, uh, you know, all the muckety mucks who were... Apparently, the streets didn't get shoveled for like five days or something?

• 8:06Speaker 02

  I'm from West Virginia. We just drive through it. You know, you just... It's fine. It'll go.

• 8:14Mike Rowe?

  Well, look, I know you're busy. I so appreciate you making the time for this.

• 8:18Speaker 02

  Oh, I appreciate you. Thanks for doing this.

• 8:21Mike Rowe?

  Well, look, full disclosure. I've never had an elected official on the podcast before who was currently serving. Like, Rick Perry came on after the fact.

• 8:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:31Mike Rowe?

  Uh, Vivek came on before the fact. But I try and avoid it for obvious reasons.

• 8:38Speaker 02

  Makes sense.

• 8:39Mike Rowe?

  But Riley, your idea... Your idea is so good, it agitated me when I read it. Because my first thought was, who in the world could be opposed to this? And of course, there will be some. But if you would, just sum up what Jump Start is, how you came to it, why you proposed it, and what you think its future is likely to be.

• 9:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, so Jump Start Savings Program is something that I actually started in West Virginia when I was the state treasurer. So, we have it just in West Virginia as a state program. And the idea behind this, this comes from my own personal experience. So, I used to be a welder. That's how I started my career, and through terrible career choices, I'm now a congressman. But, I'd be making more money if I was still a welder. But, in any event, when I got out of trade school, I was working in a mining operation, and then I saw some guys that would come to our job site periodically, and they had like a mobile welding rig, and they would go to different mining operations. I wasn't in coal, I was in trap rock, kind of like open pit mine.

• 9:50Mike Rowe?

  Explain that a little bit more. So, it's not bituminous, it's not anthracite?

• 9:54Speaker 02

  No, so this is, trap rock is kind of aggregate rock. So, like open pit mine type stuff, you know, someone would see it and be like, "Oh, that's like a quartz rock." It's not, it's called trap rock, but, you know, it makes asphalt, stuff like that. So, big stone. And, so I was doing that, and I would maintenance all the mining equipment at night, but we'd start, kind of like 3:00 in the afternoon, and then go till 2:00, 3:00 in the morning, and then get the stuff rolling again. But, I saw these guys, they'd show up in their own mobile welding rig, and I was like, "Man, I want to do that." I was young, I had no credit, I had no money, and I had no ability to be able to purchase any of these things. So, then, when I did get into public service, it was something that

• 10:35Speaker 02

  always bothered me, is that we throw all this money and all these programs that are out there to get people into college and help them in college, but there's nothing really out there that's analogous to help people once they get out of trade school and they're in their profession or vocation. And since the trades are so uniquely different, yes, I mean, we want help getting people into the trades, but what about after when you graduate? That's where the real expense can be, particularly if you want to go out on your own.

• 11:06Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 11:07Speaker 02

  You know, if I wanted to start mobile welding rig, I needed, you know, F350, oxy settling cutting torch, I'd buy a Miller, not a Lincoln. I like Miller welding products better. But, you know, I'd have to buy all this stuff. You're talking about tens of thousands, if not, you know, well over 100,000?

• 11:20Mike Rowe?

  It could be 100 grand.

• 11:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, I couldn't afford that. So how would I help a younger version of me go out and, pardon the pun, jump-start my career? And get going, where I could be an independent operator if I want to be. And so that's why I started this. So it looks like a 529 college savings plan in the manner that it functions because of its savings and then you're not paying the capital gains tax on the dollars invested in. But differently is that it's not for school. It's for tools, equipment, licenses, certifications, and new business startup costs. But this account stays open in perpetuity. It's not like it shuts down.

• 12:05Speaker 02

  You can continue to put money in and take money out throughout your career.

• 12:10Mike Rowe?

  Okay, so not to get too in the weeds, but I want to make sure people understand the corollary. A 529 is a pretty well-established account that parents often use to put in money that is tax-deferred.

• 12:25Speaker 02

  Well, actually, as long as it's applied to your educational expenses, the capital gains taxes will never be paid. And so it can grow tax-free. Now, if you decide to liquidate it and go buy a boat or something, then you're paying the tax penalty.

• 12:42Mike Rowe?

  Right. And there is, well, I'm fascinated by this because, you know, I've got friends on both sides of the aisle and I've got friends in every tax bracket. My wealthy friends have, wealthy-ish, you know, put in a sizable chunk for their kids 18 years ago. And that money grew in the markets, the same way a lot of other investments did. And it turned out to be way more than they needed, even for an Ivy League education. So, you know, you've got a chunk of money left over in a 529. You can't just take it out and buy a boat. You could maybe transfer it to a grandkid, right? I mean, you can pass it on in that way. But you say goodbye to that money for yourself.

• 13:24Mike Rowe?

  It can only be used for specific academic endeavor. This is similar in the way you would fund it, but different in the way you can apply it.

• 13:36Speaker 02

  Exactly. And one of the things that I brought over from the state version of this that, because on the state level, as the state treasurer of West Virginia, I ran the 529 account. And do you know what I found? Tons of dormant 529 accounts.

• 13:53Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 13:54Speaker 02

  Tons of them. And so what we created was a free rollover program where you could roll over your 529 college money into a jumpstart account. Because many of these people were going into the trades. A lot of them were. And but that money, you know, you paid the tax penalty because it'd be applied to something that doesn't have to do with college education.

• 14:17Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 14:18Speaker 02

  And so we wanted to allow them to take that college money and put it into a jumpstart account so they could start their career with a chunk of change there and get down the road.

• 14:28Mike Rowe?

  Well, let me tell you personally why I think I love this. And I say think because unless there's something I missed reading through the bill. I've got maybe 34, 3,500 people who have gone through my foundation. And my foundation pays for trade school. Any two-year school, any vocation, from cosmetology to electrician,

• 14:53Mike Rowe?

  every kind of mining, everything in between.

• 14:55Speaker 02

  And. Oh, but you know, to that point, this does apply for anybody who does any kind of vocation, just like you were doing. So if it's cosmetology, any of that.

• 15:04Mike Rowe?

  Look, it's not a small thing. I just had last week a guy on the podcast named Wyn Clayball who runs all of Paul Mitchell's hairdressing schools.

• 15:14Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 15:14Mike Rowe?

  Now, like, this is the last guy in the world I ever thought I would be interviewing because my foundation is designed to help close the skills gap. And I don't spend a lot of time thinking that the country is suffering from a preponderance of bad haircuts, right? What? There are hundreds of thousands of people who enter the cosmetology trade. And you know what? Scissors are expensive. Razors, like, quality gear, all that stuff. So I'm guessing that you invest in your own career at some point, and then you go through the schooling. You get your credential. This money that's growing tax-free in this Jump Start account that can pay for

• 15:58Mike Rowe?

  your credential, your accreditation, your scissors, your razors, your welding gear, your F-350 even if you can make a case?

• 16:07Speaker 02

  Exactly. All of those things. All of those things. And what we found in the Jump Start program in West Virginia is that you had some of the short-term savers. And now, at the state level, we weren't able to do anything about the federal capital gains tax. That's why this is so important to be able to address at the federal level. We could address it at the state, but we couldn't do it at the federal level. But yeah, you could buy scissors, blow dryers, you know, chairs, whatever, any of those things to start your new business. And not to mention, the newer the tools, the safer you are. I've been on a lot of job sites with the crappiest tools that you can think of, and people get hurt.

• 16:48Mike Rowe?

  Sure.

• 16:49Speaker 02

  You can get hurt. I mean, you could have frayed cables. If you're arc welding, you get electrocuted, any of those types of things. So, I mean, there is a safety thing and a longevity. And so, we had two different kinds of savers. The short-term guys that were like, "I just need to buy a couple of tools here and there each year." And then the people that are actually saving for a big career mover, career dream, to start some type of business.

• 17:12Mike Rowe?

  That's the key, man. This is where I get sideways sometimes with labor, with unions. I got no problem with that, but there is a difference between an employee who wants to remain an employee his or her whole life and has that mindset. And that's fine, no judgments. But it is a different mindset to look at the skilled trades through the lens of an entrepreneur, a small business person. And, I mean, honestly, Riley, the other reason I wanted to talk to you about this is I've never seen a bill that was endorsed by the Teamsters and the Chamber of Commerce at the same time.

• 17:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:58Mike Rowe?

  I mean, that alone, forgive me, we're six minutes into this thing, I buried the lead or 11 minutes in, that strikes me as consequential.

• 18:06Speaker 02

  I think it is. This bill, and I've said this many times, it is not about right to work. It's not about labor unions. It's just about work. That is all we're trying to do here. And there are advantages for labor unions in this as well, things that they could take advantage of. And there's the guys that aren't going to join a labor union. There's stuff for them, too. This is just about getting people to work in jobs that are going to earn a decent living. And, you know, in a state like West Virginia, we only got 25% college attainment. And by the way, that's not a bad thing. That's just not our culture. That's just not what we want to do. We literally have a promise scholarship that if you maintain a certain GPA, you can go to college for free in West Virginia.

• 18:50Speaker 02

  And people just don't want, they don't want to do it. That's not what they want to do. And that just makes sense for a lot of folks to go into the trade. So it's, and depending on your skill and how you're going to do this, a lot of the pipe fitters and particularly pipeliners are going to work on, you know, natural gas pipelines. A lot of those guys will go join unions. Some of the, a lot of those carpenters though are going to go out and start their own thing. Some of the plumbers are going to go out and start their own thing. Some join a union, some don't. I don't really care. Do it however you want. But what we're trying to do here is get more people back into the trades, particularly is that we're going to see this kind of renaissance in manufacturing, I think, here in the United States.

• 19:32Mike Rowe?

  Here's a crazy idea. What if there was an academy out there that paid students to learn instead of the other way around? Specifically, men and women who want to work in the skilled trades. And what if this academy not only paid for your training, but also covered all the expenses associated with your training, like travel and food and lodging? And finally, what if this academy guaranteed you a job at the end of the training period? Well, that's exactly what's happening at America's Workforce Academy by Meta. This is a five-week, highly immersive, pre-apprenticeship program that gets you all the necessary certifications you'll need to start a career in the skilled trades immediately. I'm talking about AI-proof.

• 20:16Mike Rowe?

  Six-figure jobs, helping to build out the new infrastructure that our economy is depending on. Electricians, plumbers, HVAC techs, welders, fiber optic technicians, these jobs, they are all in demand like never before. And again, every graduate of America's Workforce Academy is guaranteed a job on a Meta website. I first announced this program a few months ago, and I have been watching the response ever since. It's extraordinary. This is a nationwide, unprecedented fast track to a long-term career in a skilled trade. If you, or your spouse, or your kid, or your grandkid are looking for a straight path

• 20:57Mike Rowe?

  into a career with no cost at all, check out the opportunities for yourself at meta.com/america'sworkforceacademy. That's meta.com/america'sworkforceacademy. Don't you think, to some degree, all the trouble in the world, especially with regard to workforce and closing the skills gap and the cost of a four-year degree versus the cost of the accreditation or the credentialing that we're talking about? All these things just seem to be the consequence of painting with too broad a brush. I don't know what it feels like in the capital there, but West Virginia, to your point, it

• 21:42Mike Rowe?

  makes no sense to talk about West Virginia and Florida, or West Virginia and California in the same breath. It's like, the states have personalities, the states have identities. And, you know, the cookie cutter advice that's so often dispensed from the hallowed halls behind you, seem to forget that. And so, there's just a lot of talking past each other. And like, when did work become co-opted by labor? And when did management become...

• 22:16Mike Rowe?

  The equivalent of Scrooge McDuck and every rapacious capitalist that ever walked the earth and how do we get ourselves into such narrow little lanes?

• 22:26Speaker 02

  No, I couldn't agree with you more and my experience here is this place is filled with a tremendous amount and I don't think I've ever been around as many lawyers. Like, everybody's a lawyer. I'm not one. You know, there's not a ton-

• 22:45Mike Rowe?

  You're the opposite of a lawyer.

• 22:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's not a ton of guys who were welders. Now, I mean, we got some, you know, that have done some other blue collar work in their life and that's cool. I wish there were more. And to the point, the state legislature in West Virginia is part-time and it is awesome because it's 60 days and you just sprint through and you're doing all this. But my colleagues, because it is part-time, were coal miners, truck drivers, carpenters. I mean, people that are living normal, regular lives and then coming in as a citizen legislator and then trying to fix things in their community. I mean, it just makes a lot of sense.

• 23:23Mike Rowe?

  Well, it's, I mean, it's Mr. Smith Goes to Washington. It's just, I think a lot of people are discouraged about DC because it doesn't feel like that. It doesn't feel like the farmer took a break to go in to, you know, serve the country. It doesn't, it doesn't feel like the dirty jobber took a break for public service and then went back to his or her, you know, gig. I mean, I'll circle back to jumpstart in a second, but I'm kind of interested in how a welder, you know, working trap mines winds up. I mean, really, what's your story, man? How did this happen to you?

• 24:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, it was, so, go to trade school and my mother's family, all of them were welders. All of them union, by the way. And so-

• 24:15Speaker 02

  I ended up going that path and I remember my grandfather telling me, he's like, "Become a welder. It's like a bass player in a band. Everybody always needs one. I'm telling you, just do it." And so I ended up going that direction and he was not wrong. I was never one for work, particularly, I mean, I know how to stick weld, MIG weld, TIG weld. I mean, I can do all that stuff. And so...

• 24:40Mike Rowe?

  I'd be remiss, real quick sidebar, but can you just make a case for welding? Real quick, as a trade, as a way in to that world, what is it about mastering that specific skill? Because I've seen it in my own foundation, time and time again. But as a welder, how does it inform your worldview and how does it allow you to make sense of your current gig?

• 25:06Speaker 02

  Finality, I guess is the best way to put it. And what I mean by that is when I was welding, and I had several different experiences, working in a mine, worked in a machine shop, steel structural, building buildings, things like that. But at some point, we were done. I'd have a finished product. And I could look at it and be like, "All right, looks good. Let's go. Keep on moving down the road." It's hard, growing up doing that and doing this job where it's, every problem is like forever. And it's like, we make incremental progress on it, which is great, but I'm here because I want some like finality in some of these things.

• 25:44Mike Rowe?

  Yeah. But look, it's, it's why short stories are so much more satisfying to write than novels.

• 25:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:53Mike Rowe?

  You get the satisfaction of finishing a thing. Plus, you know, a welder told me once on Dirty Jobs, he was like, "It's, it is the satisfaction of finishing, but it's also the joy of always knowing how you're doing at every sense and every step of the process. Plus, fundamentally, what are you doing, man? You're, you're connecting things. You're joining things. You're, you're uniting things."

• 26:23Speaker 02

  And not only that, is you're joining things, you're connecting things, but the inspector's going to show up.

• 26:31Mike Rowe?

  You will be weighed and measured.

• 26:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, it will be, and you know, if they are x-raying that thing and it's not passing, you're doing it again, and then if you have a few of those, you're in trouble. So, I mean, you're not going to half-ass this thing. And I think, you know, a lot of these jobs that you're in, kind of white-collar jobs, there's a lot of people that just half-ass things, right? But, you know, if you're building a house, or you're building a building, you're hanging I-beams, whatever, you know, there is no half-ass to that. You've got to do it correctly, and there's a lot of...

• 27:04Mike Rowe?

  I think we call that fool-assing, Congressman.

• 27:06Speaker 02

  Yes, exactly. And, but there's a lot of pride that goes into that, because welding is a skill. A lot of these trades, these are real, real refined skills that take training to be able to do, and I know people kind of outside of this may realize, I mean, you put two pieces of metal together, it's a lot harder than that. And, I mean, actually building something, looking at the blueprints that have been put together by engineers many times who have never welded in their life. So you're having to like interpret some of that design and trying to make it reality when sometimes maybe it won't even be necessarily realistic in the manner that you're, they're trying to get pieces to fit in, or you know, tight corners or something, it's like, did

• 27:51Speaker 02

  they even think about trying to weld this together? But that's the beauty of the challenge of it all, and then being able to look at this finished product and saying, "I did that." There's buildings I still drive by today, and I'm like, "I built that."

• 28:03Mike Rowe?

  It's a, it's just impossible to overstate the pride that comes with craftsmanship. Every day, I talk to people who ultimately, when I ask a dirty job, or really what is it, sometimes it's the money, sometimes it's the flexibility of the schedule, there's always that beat. There's always the idea that you can return to the thing that you finished, and it's still standing, and you can see it, and you can drive over it and point to it, or hang from it, or, or whatever it is. I wanted to ask you two about... Your thoughts on trade education specifically? I'm thinking about the credentialing that you mentioned.

• 28:44Mike Rowe?

  And I wonder, you know, if you think about what has to happen to really close the skills gap. It's like, what, seven million open jobs now?

• 28:52Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 28:53Mike Rowe?

  Right? I mean, it's just like, I mean, we've got to reinvigorate the trades state by state, I think. And part of this, for me, anyway, I certainly want the best trained workforce possible. But should it really take six, seven, eight years to be a master plumber? Is there a way to fast track the credentialing in most of the skilled trades that you would champion?

• 29:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, certainly, I think that there could be ways to fast track some of it. Now, some folks want to get rid of all licensure requirements, which I am, I'm not for that. You know, we had something come up in the state legislature of West Virginia, and they wanted to get rid of licensure requirements for like electricians, crane operators. Like, I'm not standing under that load. You're out of your mind. But yeah, I mean, some of this stuff does take too long. And we gotta do something to be able to expedite it, to get more people into the workforce. It can't be as long as an undergraduate and a master's degree wrapped up altogether. And I totally agree with you, though, because we're leaving a lot on the table, because that's where some of these jobs need to be filled.

• 30:03Speaker 02

  Like you said, the seven million that are just sitting open right now. And I think the other thing, though, that we have to do simultaneously is remove, and this has been happening, thanks to people like you, the stigma around doing these jobs. When I first left the trades to start a white collar job, they looked at my resume and they said, oh, so you, you went to trade school during high school and finished right after. They're like, what happened? Like, something had to happen for me to go do that. And that's the question that I want to get rid of in all of this. I want somebody to look at it and say, oh, that's awesome. That's cool. You actually know how to do something.

• 30:44Mike Rowe?

  Yeah, right. So, how do we do it? I mean, I've got my theories, but as an elected official, what, what do you see as the role?

• 30:56Mike Rowe?

  Of government, is there a .gov that is somehow a solution to this thing in whole cloth? Or is it always going to be some version of a public-private endeavor?

• 31:06Speaker 02

  No, well, I think that's where, you know, kind of your jumpstart.gov becomes part of this. I mean, think about, you know, Pell Grants and the loan system and, you know, we piled up billions and billions of dollars of debt on our kids. This is trying to even the playing field here for people who are going into the trades and vocations. We have thrown everything humanly possible at our young people to get them away from the trades over the last 20, 30 years. This type of program is saying, no, this is a... Your government is telling you, this is a good choice. This is a smart choice. And we actually put... We put emphasis on how good of a choice this is, that we have created this program because you are needed. We need you in this workforce.

• 31:52Speaker 02

  So I think that is a little bit different, putting the emphasis on it that your country needs you to go do these jobs, rather than it was, everybody's got to go to college, go get a degree, it doesn't matter what it is. You can go get undergraduate in, you know, Russian literature and end up working at Starbucks and trying to figure out what happened with your life. So, but that is, I think, us saying, this is important to us. It's important to the country, so much so, we have created this program where we are going to set you on a path to be successful as quickly as possible. And that's why the term "jumpstart," just to your point about licensures, right? This gets people into the workforce faster.

• 32:34Speaker 02

  If you're an auto mechanic, you get out of auto mechanic school. You have to buy all of your own tools. Tens of thousands of dollars of tools that you have to buy to go start your job. Where's that money coming from? They could have been saving for that the entire period of time, just like a 529 and just like your friends who had those, who had piled up a ton of money on it. And now they got the best tools. You know, they can start their own shop. They got, you know, they're ready to go from day one.

• 33:07Mike Rowe?

  So as some of you may have heard, I went to Congress 16 years ago to testify before a House Subcommittee, and then again, a year later, to testify before a Senate Subcommittee about the need to reinvigorate the skilled trades with some kind of national effort that would make a more persuasive case for a lot of good jobs out there that didn't require a four-year degree. Well, 15 years later, I finally heard back from the government, and I am delighted to tell you about a program called BuildFreedom.us. This is the national PR campaign that MicroWorks has been talking about for a decade and a half now, and it's

• 33:51Mike Rowe?

  focused on 300,000 or 400,000 excellent jobs in the defense industrial base. These are the electricians, and the plumbers, and the steam finners, and the pipe fitters, and the CNC operators, and the shipbuilders, and so forth. But, in this case, all of those trades are focused on building out our national infrastructure through the defense industrial base. So people who are building our autonomous weapons, our planes, our ships, it's only a matter of national security, and it's a very big deal. And on a personal level, it's really been very gratifying. BuildFreedom donated $10 million to MicroWorks. The money's available right now for you, if you want to pursue a skill that's in demand and work

• 34:35Mike Rowe?

  in the defense industrial base. I think it's an opportunity of a lifetime. Go to BuildFreedom.us, see what's available, and then apply for a scholarship from MicroWorks. The money's there, burning a hole in my pocket. Go get some. BuildFreedom.us. Give me a case study, like, not a wealthy family, not a desperately poor family, but just somebody with a couple of kids, and one of the kids is really looking like they have a proclivity for this kind of work, and the parents want to make sure they're well-positioned. How does it work? How much money can you contribute, shelter, defer, and so forth?

• 35:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, so you can start at just like a 529. So when your child is born, just like you can start a college savings account, you could start one of these Jump Start savings accounts. But I've seen people do this a couple of different ways. Because I always get this question. Well, what if later they want to go into the trades? And we had a college savings account? That's why we have that rollover provision. So you could put it in a 529, let the money grow. You have the same options in terms of investment for the Jump Start. But then your child says, you know what? I actually want to go to trade school. And then that money is there. You roll it over into the Jump Start. And then they're ready to go.

• 35:57Mike Rowe?

  Oh. Whoa, whoa. Then what's, then what possible opposition could there be? I mean, if...

• 36:07Speaker 02

  There shouldn't be. There shouldn't be. And the funny thing about this idea is that it's fairly simple. And it's, you know, the lawyer mind probably didn't really think about it. Somebody who had actually worked in the trades, like, a lot of reactions that I've gotten on this previously is, huh. I wonder why nobody thought about that before? Because it seems fairly simple and straightforward. Like, why the hell wouldn't we be doing this?

• 36:38Mike Rowe?

  Well, I'm thinking of my, my earlier reference. My friend right now has three kids. Two of them spent a fair amount of the money in their 529s. And they've, they've got their degree or they're about to get it. The third, as it turns out, was just not, not going to go the four-year route. And this one is trying to figure it out. Now, that kid's got the same relative amount of money. Actually, more, because none of it was spent on the Ivy League or anything close to it. But he is interested in mechanical stuff. He is interested in this kind of thing. Are you saying that that money, right now, as the law exists,

• 37:21Mike Rowe?

  can't be rolled into the kinds of purchases and expenditures you're talking about? But it would be if Jump Start passes in general?

• 37:31Speaker 02

  Exactly. So that individual could take that college savings money and say, I'm going to trade school. Goes to trade school, vocational school, vocational school, whatever. Say they come out, a welder, right? Or whatever it is. And now, they've rolled that 529 college money into the Jump Start account. And now they can use that money to start a business, buy tools, buy equipment, any of those licenses, certifications, all of those things that I delineated in the bill. So they could go start their career, zero debt, and get right going down the road.

• 38:13Mike Rowe?

  I want to ask you to riff on something you mentioned earlier regarding the skills gap and the stakes of closing it for our country. This, I mean, it's super interesting to me because 17 years ago, when I started my program, the skills gap was a thing, but there was no national emergency. There was no Manhattan-style project thinking, "Good God, we're not going to be able to compete without the right workforce." It was more about, "Hey, America, there's a lot of opportunity hidden in the cracks. There are a lot of companies that have a straight path to a six-figure gig that doesn't require a four-year degree.

• 38:57Mike Rowe?

  And you probably don't know about it because of those stigmas and stereotypes. So let me help you," right? That's why it was called MicroWorks. It was supposed to be just very small, one person at a time. And so the conversation around opportunity and work, it was very intimate in that sort of capitalistic way. Now, all of a sudden, it's like the maritime industrial base needs 400,000 welders, electricians, and CNC operators to build our submarines. The whole AI race, the whole data center thing, it's half a million electricians. It's a totally, like, from a marketing standpoint, from a positioning standpoint.

• 39:39Mike Rowe?

  You know, column A is, hey, get over here, there's an amazing opportunity that you're gonna love. Column B is, holy shit, man, this is a problem with a capital P for everybody. Which one of those things is keeping you up at night right now, both from a West Virginia representative standpoint and as an American who still gives a damn about the country?

• 40:02Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, I mean, certainly the second one certainly worries me. And I've met with shipbuilders about that very issue that you've mentioned, and it is a, we are in trouble. Like, we've got to do something. And to me, just frankly, I think the whole globalization thing has caught up with us. We have offshored all of this stuff for so long, and now we have seen the frailty in these supply chains, and also that it does cause a national security risk, having our supply chains stretched so far overseas for these critical end items that need to be created here in the United States, is

• 40:43Speaker 02

  that, yes, it's a, holy crap, what are we going to do? We need 400,000 guys in a shipyard. It has to move faster, like, much faster than it is right now. And, you know, our biggest peer competitor out there, our adversary, China, they get it. They get it. You know, that there is a deterrent effect in having a massive manufacturing base and an ability to build things on scale.

• 41:14Mike Rowe?

  So, how do we grab the country by the metaphorical lapels and shake it without scaring it? Because it's so easy to alarm, and, you know, it's just the constant political back and forth, it's exhausting. But it doesn't change the fact that... I'm rooting for the president. I, I want to see reshoring reinvigorated. I want to see more manufacturing and the 2 million new manufacturing jobs he's talking about. I love, but I can read the BLS like anybody else. There's 480,000 open positions in manufacturing today.

• 41:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:54Mike Rowe?

  So it's like, you know, I was in a room with him and a bunch of other big shots a couple of months ago. And this topic came up and I, you know, I'm the guy who has to say, I, I'm with you, but I just don't understand where you're going to find the workers unless we reinvigorate all of this. I mean, state by state by state, but certainly on a national level too. So I don't want to repeat myself Riley, but that's why I wanted to talk to you. I just, this to me feels like an affirmative, unassailable thing that at the very least elevates the trades to the same level as a four-year degree. And the fact that, I mean, I, I, there are some people out there who oppose it.

• 42:39Mike Rowe?

  I think for the same reason that they would oppose any kind of incentive that allows people to save money on their taxes, not to make it too political. But, but man, if you're not for this.

• 42:52Speaker 02

  I know.

• 42:54Speaker 02

  And I think that's why you've seen the Teamsters and some of the other unions are going to support this thing. And it's the same reason the Associated Builders and Contractors, the Right to Work guys support this is that everybody sees the gap. They want to get more people in the door and we've got to do something to even the playing field for the guys in the trades and vocations and gals. And so that is, and you've done a great job on this, you know, talking about taking away that stigma. Look, there's a lot of folks come out of here with a four-year degree making 50, 60,000 dollars a year, quarter million dollars in debt, when they could come out of trade school making six figures, no debt, with a program like this that will get them right on their way.

• 43:37Mike Rowe?

  And many of the aforementioned aren't even working in their chosen field.

• 43:43Speaker 02

  No, no, not at all.

• 43:45Mike Rowe?

  That's the real tragedy of it. Look, I, he, when you talk about the stigmas, I'll tell you what I caught a lot of grief for a couple of years ago when the conversation was headline news about forgiving student debt.

• 43:58Mike Rowe?

  And I said, look, personally, I'm very uncomfortable with that. But if you're gonna do it, just for grins, are we also gonna have a conversation about forgiving the capital cost of the F-150 and the tools? And all the stuff that had to be assumed by the relatively small team of people who built your house?

• 44:20Speaker 02

  Right, yeah, yeah.

• 44:22Mike Rowe?

  Okay? So, and if you put folks in a corner with questions like that, their bias becomes revealed in a way that really isn't flattering, and they get angry.

• 44:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:36Mike Rowe?

  And then...

• 44:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:38Mike Rowe?

  And so, I mean, are you running into that now? And what has to happen for Jump Start to become the law of the land? And how can I help?

• 44:46Speaker 02

  Well, I just keep talking about is how you can help. It's just kind of continue to elevate the conversation, awareness of the bill. But I've been pushing this, just got it introduced recently. And I think how we can get at the law of the land, if we here in the House do a reconciliation part two, which we're talking about, that was then called the one big beautiful bill, we're looking at doing that again, part two. And I have pitched this to leadership as what should be part of reconciliation part two. And, you know, look, I was able to roll in there, though, with my endorsements and saying, look, we got the Teamsters, associated builders and contractor, I mean, we got everybody here,

• 45:29Speaker 02

  and I think we're gonna get some Democrats on this bill here very shortly, because they're looking at it as well. They love it. And they're like, yeah, why wouldn't we do this?

• 45:36Mike Rowe?

  Why wouldn't you?

• 45:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:38Mike Rowe?

  Don't take this as advice. I would never give it. But if I were, I would say, put a face on it. You know, not mine, not yours.

• 45:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, not mine.

• 45:50Mike Rowe?

  But, you know, show me the 20-year-old kid who's got his welding thing or his electrical and is ready to go and is starting out. And show me the bill. Like, what's he got to do now to buy those tools? Like, really make it real. I mean, I'll tell you, man, I, you tell those geniuses behind you in that joint that, um, I got 3,500 people who, we gave roughly 17 million dollars to, to get trained to work in these jobs. They are all, they, at some point, struggled with this exact thing. Nobody, I mean, college kids, yeah, you talk about the cost of books and people just clutch

• 46:34Mike Rowe?

  their pearls and gnash their teeth and, oh, the hundreds, maybe even thousands of dollars for textbooks if you're in a law school. This is tens of thousands of dollars, maybe 100 grand to get going.

• 46:45Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 46:47Mike Rowe?

  It's just, we just have to make it real, man.

• 46:50Speaker 02

  Exactly, exactly.

• 46:53Mike Rowe?

  Quick sidebar, uh, tell me when you have to go. I know you got a state to run. You got a couple of minutes?

• 46:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, a couple of minutes.

• 46:59Mike Rowe?

  Okay. Mining, rare earths.

• 47:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:03Mike Rowe?

  Polymetallic nodules. Are you up to speed with what's going on in that world?

• 47:09Speaker 02

  In West Virginia, I'm a little, um, obviously, we've been talking about it for a long time because we get it in the mine runoff. We have a lot of rare earth minerals and we do have rare earth minerals that are co-located in coal deposits.

• 47:23Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 47:24Speaker 02

  We've been trying to get people to come in and they are looking at getting it out. But anytime you mention coal, everybody kind of freaks out. But the rare earths are there.

• 47:33Mike Rowe?

  Yeah. I'm just, I'm talking more about these, um, in fact, here's one here. This is, these things, they're on the bottom of the ocean. They're hundreds of billions of.

• 47:44Speaker 02

  I don't know about those.

• 47:45Mike Rowe?

  Oh, well, that's why I was at the Pentagon. I got sucked in to this conversation and I think it's gonna be. I think we're gonna live to see probably later this year, something along the lines of metal independence, like energy independence.

• 48:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:02Mike Rowe?

  These things are packed with cobalt, copper, manganese, nickel. And they're at depth, right? They're four or five miles down. But they reckon it's a 16, 17 trillion dollar industry. And the tech now exists to get these things. So just as a miner, or a guy that at least spent some time around it, I think you'll probably be amazed and amused to see what's, what's coming. Because if I remember right, I think, I think the president signed an EO back in April that sort of really, like, it was like a starting pistol. So, so the mining thing is, is back in the headlines, underwater, collecting and harvesting, all this stuff.

• 48:47Mike Rowe?

  I, I think it's gonna be something you're gonna wind up in a committee on in six months.

• 48:54Speaker 02

  I, well, I hope so, because, uh, look, that's another one that we gotta beat the Chinese on, rare earth minerals. They're, but, uh, just like you said, we had the starting pistol go off, which, uh, I think my folks are shooting a pistol at me right now. Tell them.

• 49:09Mike Rowe?

  I'll let you go. I appreciate your time. I love what you're doing. And, um, you know, if I can be of use, I'm at your disposal. But we'll push this out in a meaningful way. Cause for the life of me, I, I just don't know who would oppose.

• 49:24Speaker 02

  Mike, thank you so, so very much. It's especially with your voice on this. I think we're gonna be in good shape and I will keep you updated because I am dedicated 100% to getting this done. I mean, this is, this is my life experience. I gotta, gotta help the next guys.

• 49:40Mike Rowe?

  Riley, good on you. I don't know about the tie. I don't know what to say, but if the Congress thing doesn't work out, it's good to know you have a useful skill you could fall back on.

• 49:48Speaker 02

  There you go.

• 49:50Speaker 02

  That's very good.

• 49:51Mike Rowe?

  Thanks, man.

• 49:52Speaker 02

  Thanks, Mike.

• 49:53Mike Rowe?

  Say hey to everybody on both sides of the aisle. I'd appreciate it.

• 49:56Speaker 02

  I will do that.

• 49:57Mike Rowe?

  If you like what you heard. And even if you don't. Won't you please? Won't you please? Pretty please? Pretty please? Subscribe. Well, I hate to beg and I hate to plead, but please, pretty frickin' please. Please sub. Please.

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