Pod Insights The Watch Your Summer TV Lineup: ‘Task,’ ‘The Bear’ Season 4, and ‘Welcome to Derry.’ Plus, ‘The Last of Us’ S2E6. About this episode Chris and Andy talk about the trailers that were released this week for the Mark Ruffalo Philly detective show ‘Task’ (12:44), the final season of ‘The Bear’ (25:24), and the ‘It’ prequel series, ‘Welcome to Derry’ (35:03). Then they talk about Episode 6 of ‘The Last of Us,’ a penultimate episode in a season that has felt abrupt (38:57).
Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald
Producer: Kaya McMullen
Video Production and Editing: Jon Jones
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Transcript 12,099 words · 8 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Speaker 00 This episode is brought to you by Boar's Head. You know what I love about football season? It's the football, but also the football watching food. And nothing hits like a Boar's Head sandwich when I'm watching a game. Really, any game day sandwich better with Boar's Head. Philly cheesesteak, layer up buttery slider rolls with Boar's Head London broil roast beef, American white cheese and picante provolone. Delicious. Then add roasted onions, peppers and Boar's Head pub style horseradish sauce. I love horseradish and you've got the ultimate game day cheesesteak. They've also got a whole lineup of premium meats, cheeses, hummus and dips, condiments and more to serve up on game day. Head to your local Boar's Head deli counter to shop now. For game day sandwich inspiration and more, visit boar'shead.com. Boar's Head, committed to craft since 1905.
0:43 Speaker 01 Observe the North American dad. 50s, great polo collection. He enters his vehicle information on Carvana. An offer appears in minutes. Remarkable. He squints, reads it again, smiles and says, dang, that's a good offer. The highest form of approval. No haggling, no hassle. No one called him boss. He's still on the couch. Astonishing. Sell your car today on carvana.com. Pickup fees may apply.
1:14 Speaker 02 I need support staff to clear the room. Stand up and walk now.
1:19 Chris Ryan? Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com. And joining me in the studio, sweet birthday baby. It's Andy Greenwald. Come on.
1:35 Andy Greenwald? Come on.
1:36 Chris Ryan? Forty years old.
1:37 Andy Greenwald? Thank you.
1:38 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
1:38 Andy Greenwald? Yeah, for the eighth time, it's awesome. Thank you.
1:41 Chris Ryan? Dog, we're getting old up in here, you know?
1:43 Andy Greenwald? Yeah, but this is your favorite six months of the year when I'm a little bit further down the track.
1:47 Chris Ryan? I know. You can tell me all about your experiences that I haven't had yet.
1:50 Andy Greenwald? Quite wise, quite wise. But you know, it's not today. We took, we took the day off for a number of reasons, but thank you.
1:55 Chris Ryan? I was traveling back from the beautiful state of Oregon where I was golfing with some homies.
2:00 Andy Greenwald? Yeah, can I ask you a couple of things about that? Well, you, you want to do a rundown?
2:03 Chris Ryan? Yeah, we're going to talk about the task trailer. We're going to talk about the bear trailer. We're going to talk a little bit about the welcome to dairy trailer. Uh, I know that's top of your mind because New England and generational horror and trauma.
2:16 Andy Greenwald? And clowns.
2:17 Chris Ryan? Yeah, is, uh, some of your favorite stuff. Have you aged out of that?
2:21 Andy Greenwald? Clowns?
2:22 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
2:22 Andy Greenwald? Oh, you mean, oh, you mean.
2:23 Chris Ryan? Did you have a clown at your birthday?
2:26 Andy Greenwald? My whole birthday was me doing the clown meme.
2:28 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
2:29 Andy Greenwald? Just slowly putting on my own.
2:30 Chris Ryan? And you know, we got to hit T L O U, The Last of Us. The penultimate episode aired on Sunday night and what else?
2:38 Andy Greenwald? You can see us on Instagram.
2:41 Chris Ryan? Watch pod underscore on Instagram. The watch at Spotify.com. Kind of honestly, cricket's in that inbox. Guess you guys don't, don't love us. What else? You can watch us on the ringer dash TV on YouTube and you can watch us where you listen to us on Spotify.
2:55 Andy Greenwald? Kai, do you want to sign us up for some Substacks? Just so that like, it seems like we have more business than that email address. You can choose for politics.
3:03 Speaker 05 That inbox was really popping during the pit.
3:06 Chris Ryan? During the pit.
3:06 Andy Greenwald? The doctors.
3:07 Chris Ryan? All the doctors wrote us and then nobody wanted to talk about Andor.
3:10 Andy Greenwald? Okay, how about this? If it's only for doctors, I do have kind of a weird red mark on my arm. That people don't like talking. I mean, I was curious about it. Was it a bug bite?
3:20 Andy Greenwald? You don't know. Okay, I have a couple of questions for you.
3:22 Chris Ryan? I have some questions for you. Hit me. Go ahead.
3:24 Andy Greenwald? This is beautiful. It's a free flowing conversation.
3:26 Chris Ryan? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
3:27 Andy Greenwald? Congratulations on your golf weekend. I think it's really fun and I think it's great. There's no, no, there's no skepticism. I love this. I was actually envious because I too would like to go to a nice place and walk around outside with friends. But I don't want to do the golf.
3:40 Chris Ryan? Right.
3:40 Andy Greenwald? So I would just walk.
3:41 Chris Ryan? I wouldn't necessarily what I called, do what I call golf. You know what I mean? Like it is slapping a ball with a metallic rod and hoping it goes 80 yards ahead of me.
3:52 Andy Greenwald? The Scotty Scheffler, right?
3:53 Chris Ryan? I had some Spiethy moments. Do you know what that means? But Jordan Spieth rescues defeat from the jaws of victory a lot.
4:02 Andy Greenwald? That's my whole life.
4:02 Chris Ryan? And I did that. There was a couple of like, did I just kill an endangered bird? Who knows? I have a great shot going in, you know, kind of stuff, but awesome. Oregon is just gorgeous.
4:13 Andy Greenwald? But here's the thing. You texted me at the end of your Saturday, just a little glimpse of your Fitbit or whatever.
4:20 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
4:20 Andy Greenwald? And there was smoke coming out of it.
4:21 Chris Ryan? Yes. It's a, it's a long walk. It's five rounds in three days and it's all walking.
4:25 Andy Greenwald? But also you presumably are golfing, at least in the way that I've seen it done on television to a degree. So you're moving your arms.
4:31 Chris Ryan? It's exactly the way you see it on television.
4:33 Andy Greenwald? So what I'm, you know, you are an athlete of the mind. You know what I mean? You spend every hour of every day in studios like this, just, just doing calisthenics with your, with your, your thoughts and your opinions. Not with your rotator cuffs. How did you do this? How did you suddenly go from zero to 60 miles, literally, in a weekend? And how are you sitting here right now?
4:56 Chris Ryan? I'm wondering whether I should apply this to all sports and whether I should start just trying, you know, should I go to the NBA Draft Combine?
5:02 Andy Greenwald? Yeah.
5:03 Chris Ryan? And participate, you know, and see.
5:05 Andy Greenwald? Just participate.
5:06 Chris Ryan? Me and Ace and Dylan.
5:07 Andy Greenwald? A walk-on.
5:08 Chris Ryan? Yeah. I did several weeks of a 15-minute yoga stretching routine that I found on YouTube.
5:15 Andy Greenwald? I didn't know about this.
5:16 Chris Ryan? And while I was out on the course, I ate many protein balls that were made of hemp hearts and chocolate chips.
5:24 Andy Greenwald? Hemp hearts?
5:25 Chris Ryan? Yeah, what's up? Do you know what that is? Like, I don't, I don't know.
5:27 Andy Greenwald? I mean, I don't, does the plant have a heart?
5:29 Chris Ryan? I don't know.
5:30 Andy Greenwald? Do they just try to appeal to the inner last the Mohicans in you?
5:33 Chris Ryan? That's how you have to get it out. You're like Magua, just like jam your fucking fist into a hemp.
5:38 Andy Greenwald? Wow.
5:39 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
5:40 Andy Greenwald? Okay, that's good.
5:41 Chris Ryan? There were moments of, of real doubt on my part, you know what I mean? Like, I was really, really, really did not want to come back with chronic back pain or with like a really bad injury, and I did not.
5:52 Andy Greenwald? Because here's the birthday angle on this, right? So yesterday I, I did celebrate my birthday and I decided to celebrate it like with something I know makes me feel good, so I did a long run. I was running around the, the Rose Bowl here in Pasadena, which includes a golf course with a lot of signs being like, being like, you are, by being in this space,
6:10 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
6:10 Andy Greenwald? you are forgiving us for your potential death.
6:13 Chris Ryan? Liability, yeah.
6:13 Andy Greenwald? So I was thinking, I hope it wasn't too speathy out there today. And that, so I had a really nice run, just like six, six and a half miles, no big deal, felt good, went back to the car and I had a, a small Mandarin orange that I was gonna use to replenish myself. I'm sorry, a heart.
6:29 Chris Ryan? You were really adorable.
6:30 Andy Greenwald? And I sat for a second, right? Just to get the orange going, to get out of the sun. And I sat and I felt something and I was like, oh, huh, okay, that's a little bit of a, a pain.
6:39 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
6:39 Andy Greenwald? Maybe I sat wrong and I stood up. And then for the next 20 minutes, I had the most excruciating body agony where I couldn't lift my arm and it was radiating to the bottom of my rib cage.
6:50 Chris Ryan? Was it because someone had hit a six iron into your spinal column?
6:53 Andy Greenwald? But I am also now of the age and of the neurotic mentality where I was like, hmm, seems like I really cramped something. Or.
7:01 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
7:01 Andy Greenwald? Paging Noah Wiley.
7:03 Chris Ryan? Cancer of the arm.
7:04 Andy Greenwald? Thoracic explosion occurred.
7:06 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
7:06 Andy Greenwald? And this is it. And I was like, man, I don't want to die on the 134 with orange peel all over me.
7:11 Chris Ryan? Where do you want to die?
7:12 Andy Greenwald? In this studio, podcasting my ideas.
7:16 Andy Greenwald? With you.
7:18 Chris Ryan? The year is 2039. Andy and Chris were like, do you remember in Andor?
7:23 Andy Greenwald? No.
7:24 Chris Ryan? When Lonnie is on the bench.
7:27 Andy Greenwald? The year is 2039. And I'm like, I just feel like-
7:30 Chris Ryan? President John Ossoff has made it National Andor Day.
7:35 Andy Greenwald? That is best case scenario. Give me a Viking funeral if that's what happens. Jesus, that's great. You say it was 2089?
7:44 Chris Ryan? 39, yeah.
7:45 Andy Greenwald? Okay. Oh, that's when we're- oh, wait, so I've got 14 years left?
7:49 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
7:49 Andy Greenwald? Severance season, well, probably Severance season four at that point.
7:53 Chris Ryan? Dude, I, somebody was, I, one of our, one of our buddies was like, will we be doing this in 20 years? And I-
7:59 Andy Greenwald? Podcasting.
7:59 Chris Ryan? No, golfing out in far-fung places.
8:03 Andy Greenwald? Yeah.
8:03 Chris Ryan? And I was like, I will be close to 70 then. I will not be golfing. Or maybe that's all I'll do.
8:08 Andy Greenwald? That's what people do then.
8:08 Chris Ryan? Yeah, yeah.
8:09 Andy Greenwald? Come on.
8:10 Chris Ryan? I'm not gonna be walking five rounds. I'll tell you that. I'll be the guy in the cart with two Medellos.
8:15 Andy Greenwald? Yeah, smart. I'm just- I read the news.
8:19 Chris Ryan? That's not cool.
8:21 Andy Greenwald? Because you like golf? Because you respect-
8:23 Chris Ryan? No, it's not cool for John Elway.
8:25 Andy Greenwald? All right. Well, he made, he made his decisions. Listen. Listen. This is 100% doubt.
8:37 Chris Ryan? We're gonna tell Kyle what that joke is and then she's gonna be like, we can't have that in the podcast.
8:41 Andy Greenwald? I just Googled it. That's the delayed laughter. All of this. All right. Okay, so I did want to ask you about golf. I had one other thing that I wanted to fire off for you.
8:49 Chris Ryan? Please. This is your time. You got this hour.
8:52 Andy Greenwald? Okay, thank you. What's the next hour? Oh, it's the big picture. I, as, as you know, and as, as listeners, maybe I alluded to this, I did have a 14, 15 day run of solo parenting. And near the end of it, I was like, you know what? Let's fire up something that I, that the dad liked. You know?
9:09 Chris Ryan? With the kids.
9:10 Andy Greenwald? Yes, yeah. And I also was kind of, this wasn't like a one for me, one for them kind of thing. I was like, I genuinely think that they might enjoy this. And the movie I fired up was-
9:20 Chris Ryan? Girls, drive my car.
9:22 Andy Greenwald? Yi Yi by Edward Yang in the Criterion Collection.
9:27 Andy Greenwald? Karate Kid.
9:28 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
9:28 Andy Greenwald? I fired up The Karate Kid, which when we were seven, that was the greatest movie I'd ever seen.
9:34 Chris Ryan? That was never really my thing.
9:35 Andy Greenwald? What?
9:36 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
9:37 Andy Greenwald? You weren't into The Karate Kid?
9:38 Chris Ryan? Not really, yeah.
9:39 Andy Greenwald? Look at this face.
9:41 Chris Ryan? I thought like the, the, the duck thing, what was it? What's that? The crane?
9:45 Andy Greenwald? The crane, the duck thing?
9:47 Chris Ryan? What's he do at the end?
9:47 Andy Greenwald? Crane, yeah.
9:48 Chris Ryan? Yeah, that was cool. But like, the rest of the story, I was like...
9:51 Andy Greenwald? So you were bored for 90 minutes until he raised his foot and kicked a dude in the face?
9:57 Chris Ryan? Yes, yeah.
9:58 Andy Greenwald? Were you, was your 1984 mostly like the one friend who let you, whose parents let him rent Commando?
10:04 Chris Ryan? You know.
10:05 Andy Greenwald? And like Kentucky Fried Movie? Like, that was your...
10:07 Chris Ryan? You know I was.
10:08 Andy Greenwald? Cause I saw this-
10:10 Chris Ryan? Or I was at that kid's house, yeah. But by the time you get to the, if you're watching Commando when Karate Kid comes out, it's hard to, it's hard to step on the package like that.
10:19 Andy Greenwald? I am really shook up here, cause I thought I was coming onto this podcast with an ally and a friend. And you'd be like, that movie is everything. And I'm watching it and it's like, better than I remember. It's still really, it's just good and-
10:30 Chris Ryan? They're making another one.
10:31 Andy Greenwald? And-
10:31 Chris Ryan? They got another one coming out. Karate Kid Legends or something like that?
10:33 Andy Greenwald? I believe it's, I believe it's Karate Kid Duck Kick. My, I bring this up to say, for me, it's still a hit. I loved everything about it.
10:43 Chris Ryan? Did kids like it?
10:43 Andy Greenwald? And also I noticed that there was some real class stuff going on that I hadn't appreciated before.
10:51 Chris Ryan? A Marxist reading of the original Karate Kid.
10:53 Andy Greenwald? Well, there's, when Daniel goes to pick up Ally from the country club and Johnny, her parents are encouraging her to dance with Johnny and he comes into the kitchen. And he sees them, you know, anyway, they could not have been more bored. I think they would have preferred it if I had just made them sit on the couch with nothing on the screen for 90 minutes. They hated it so much. And I've done a little crowdsourcing. I couldn't crowdsourc with you because you were out there eating the hearts of hemp.
11:20 Chris Ryan? Yes.
11:22 Andy Greenwald? But there's some feedback I got was that, oh, this was always gonna be a strikeout because this is, and I quote, "a dude movie."
11:29 Chris Ryan? I mean, it's about dudes.
11:30 Andy Greenwald? Kaya, I'm sorry, you, you are, I have to turn to you here. Have you ever seen the original Karate Kid film?
11:36 Speaker 05 So I haven't seen the original Karate Kid, but I have seen like basically all seasons of the Netflix.
11:42 Chris Ryan? Oh yeah, Cobra Kai.
11:43 Speaker 05 Cobra Kai.
11:44 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
11:44 Andy Greenwald? Wait, that is, this feels like a unique thing.
11:47 Speaker 05 It's a weird oversight. I should watch the Karate Kid.
11:49 Chris Ryan? It's not, it's generational. I mean, like, why would Kai have go back and, why would Kai have watched?
11:54 Andy Greenwald? Well, because when Daniel Russo shows up in season four, she's like, who's this boyish 55-year-old? Probably.
12:00 Speaker 05 Yeah, pretty much.
12:01 Andy Greenwald? And yet, that itch was never scratched. Okay, wow, this is, I'm learning a lot. You feel like you know two people.
12:08 Chris Ryan? When your choices are rejected in this manner, do you feel like?
12:13 Andy Greenwald? Like I'm being rejected?
12:14 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
12:15 Andy Greenwald? Uh, no, I've gotten over that.
12:16 Chris Ryan? Okay.
12:16 Andy Greenwald? I've gotten over that.
12:17 Chris Ryan? That's good.
12:17 Andy Greenwald? Um, for my birthday, they, they gave me the gift of, I was allowed to pick the songs during the eight-minute drive to school.
12:26 Chris Ryan? What did you pick?
12:27 Andy Greenwald? Um, uh, Death Heaven. Tribute to my friend Chris. No, I was like, I did play them a Pavement song.
12:35 Chris Ryan? Good. Did they like it?
12:36 Andy Greenwald? What do you think?
12:38 Chris Ryan? Um, at some point, we should talk about Pavements documentary.
12:41 Andy Greenwald? Oh yeah, I've seen some movies recently.
12:43 Chris Ryan? I know you have. Uh, why don't we, why don't we bunch those all together for Andy's Cinema Festival, you know?
12:48 Andy Greenwald? Yeah, so people can kind of tune out.
12:50 Chris Ryan? Well, no, but like if we, we get to see Mission Impossible this weekend, we can put together all the, all the films that you've seen recently and just run them down.
12:58 Andy Greenwald? Guys, four weeks ago, I saw Friendship and it was funny. That's my review.
13:03 Chris Ryan? Um, let's talk about some TV that's coming up later in the summer and early fall. And the most important thing-
13:08 Andy Greenwald? Oh, you're right, it was Karate Kid Legends.
13:10 Chris Ryan? Eh.
13:11 Andy Greenwald? Embarrassed.
13:12 Chris Ryan? Well, I saw it on a poster when I was going to see Final Destination: Bloodlines.
13:17 Andy Greenwald? By the way, you didn't blink when you just said that.
13:18 Chris Ryan? It's a really important movie.
13:21 Andy Greenwald? Do you know that, one thing, obviously I've never seen any of these movies.
13:24 Chris Ryan? I don't know why, they're really funny.
13:26 Andy Greenwald? Well, I did see a clip from one of the movies that was pretty funny. I didn't realize-
13:31 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
13:32 Andy Greenwald? How, how over the top they are. But one thing that I appreciate is that, well, I think it is relatively known that I don't watch horror movies. There's now a small cottage industry of friends who call me as they exit the theater from horror movies. You called me, Tim Simons called me saying, hey, guess what I just did? And I was like, did you just see Final Destination: Bloodlines? And he was like, how did you know?
13:52 Chris Ryan? Did he really?
13:53 Andy Greenwald? I'm the guy.
13:55 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
13:55 Andy Greenwald? Why don't you have him in this chair?
13:56 Chris Ryan? Um, I want to talk to you a little bit about Task, which is the new HBO cop drama from Brad Inglesby, who gave us Mayor of Easttown. Every time I say Mayor of Easttown, does it sound like I'm saying Mayor of Easttown? It does.
14:10 Andy Greenwald? Of course it does.
14:11 Chris Ryan? Yeah. Brad Inglesby, who did Mayor of Easttown. The trailer dropped last week and aired before this Last of Us episode on Sunday.
14:20 Andy Greenwald? Yeah. We just missed it. I think we were gonna, it dropped as we were recording last week.
14:24 Chris Ryan? I want to say something here.
14:26 Andy Greenwald? Thank God.
14:27 Chris Ryan? Sometimes there's a show. I won't say a hero, because what's a hero, right? But sometimes there's a show, and I'm talking about Task here. Sometimes there's a show, well, it's the show for its time and place. And that's Task.
14:42 Andy Greenwald? And the time and place is whatever time it is, wherever you are.
14:45 Chris Ryan? You may be saying to yourself, Andy, Chris, weren't you guys just pumping Dope Thief like six weeks ago?
14:51 Andy Greenwald? Yeah.
14:51 Chris Ryan? And isn't this show a Philadelphia set home invasion cop drama? Eerily similar to Dope Thief?
14:58 Andy Greenwald? More so than I would have expected, yeah, at least in its premise.
15:02 Chris Ryan? But I, I, I may be a 47-year-old child free. This is my son. Task is my child. I can't believe how it felt. A, when I saw Alice in Oliver, and I was just like, I can't believe the conversations with Friends gang is, is back.
15:22 Andy Greenwald? There's a lot, there's some, there's some good faces in here.
15:24 Chris Ryan? There's hitters in this show. It stars Mark Ruffalo and Tom Pelfrey. Tom Pelfrey, who we haven't gotten in a big juicy role since Ozark, I, I would venture a guess to say, I haven't looked at his IMDB.
15:34 Andy Greenwald? Right.
15:34 Chris Ryan? This is the kind of research you come to us for. But a Delco cop drama where Mark Ruffalo is leading a ragtag task force to investigate a spate of home invasions in the Philadelphia area. He's being directed by his, his captain, his superior, played by Martha Plimpton, in Genius Casting. And while we watch this seemingly exclusively shot at night show in its trailer.
16:00 Andy Greenwald? Yeah.
16:01 Chris Ryan? Guns N' Roses' Patience is playing, the crescendo of that song. I'm like, neither here nor there about Guns N' Roses. I think the great songs hit harder than anything ever recorded.
16:11 Andy Greenwald? Yeah.
16:12 Chris Ryan? But like, as far as the mythology and
16:14 Andy Greenwald? Deep cuts.
16:15 Chris Ryan? Axle and Slash and everything, like, whatever. This is a great song, and when this song peaks. You might as well drink a bottle full of Molly water. And the fact that it peaks, they play the crescendo while all these dudes in bulletproof vests kick down doors and guys ride motorcycles.
16:35 Chris Ryan? I'm so ready for this to just be in my life, dude.
16:38 Andy Greenwald? First of all, first of all, I was thrilled because when I saw the trailer for many reasons, like you laid out, first and foremost, you have that mask, I believe.
16:48 Chris Ryan? I do. Yeah, I wore it on the golf course for three straight days. That's why I didn't get hurt.
16:54 Andy Greenwald? I also want to say that like, for as much as we may get dinged sometimes for, I don't know, not preparing a lot, or, you know, not Googling.
17:01 Chris Ryan? No, nobody, nobody gets mad at us about that.
17:03 Andy Greenwald? You seem to have taken this trailer, which you viewed last week, and then gone off, like Alexander Hamilton of the Federalist Papers.
17:11 Chris Ryan? No, this actually, honestly, like, when it comes to shit like this, I took the limitless pill. Like, I immediately, the screen disappeared and it was just ones and zeros and I understand the code. And it's just like, I know when it's time for me to step up and I will step up for task. I will do 13 hour podcasts about every episode if you want.
17:33 Andy Greenwald? Can we talk about, let's talk about how deep the cast is then?
17:37 Chris Ryan? Go.
17:38 Andy Greenwald? Right, because you mentioned your gal Alison Oliver.
17:40 Chris Ryan? Mm-hmm.
17:41 Andy Greenwald? Anyone, anyone in the Rooney diaspora gets a pass from us, right?
17:45 Chris Ryan? Absolutely. Also, the fact that she's playing like a young cop, that's cool.
17:49 Andy Greenwald? Uh, Raul Castillo was great on-
17:51 Chris Ryan? He's so good in looking.
17:52 Andy Greenwald? He's so good in looking. Um, Amelia Jones, who you remember from your Best Picture winner, Coda.
17:57 Chris Ryan? Coda, haven't seen it.
17:58 Andy Greenwald? Did you not see it?
17:59 Chris Ryan? Never saw Coda.
18:00 Andy Greenwald? I thought you were a movie podcaster, you just didn't see it?
18:02 Chris Ryan? Every once in a while, I just, I press eject. I'm not technically on the big picture. I'm, I'm roving third chair and I don't have to do things I don't want to do.
18:12 Andy Greenwald? How did you score that gig?
18:14 Chris Ryan? I didn't. It's just I have an irrepressible personality and you keep inviting me back on, you know?
18:19 Andy Greenwald? You do know yourself. That is, that is self-diagnosis. Uh, Isaac DeBancolay, the great actor from, um, Jim Jarmusch movies and any other movies.
18:29 Chris Ryan? Come on, say his name.
18:30 Andy Greenwald? I'm not, I'm not there yet. Wait, who?
18:32 Chris Ryan? Double F, dog, Fabian Frankel.
18:34 Andy Greenwald? I was saving him. Okay, because I think there's other like, great those guys, guys, like Margarita Lavea, who was just on Daredevil and The Deuce.
18:41 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
18:41 Andy Greenwald? Um, uh, and one other one.
18:45 Andy Greenwald? Mickey Sumner?
18:46 Chris Ryan? Oh, yeah.
18:47 Andy Greenwald? I mean, who can pick among Sting's children? But she's one of my favorites.
18:52 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
18:53 Andy Greenwald? But then, yeah, then there's the question mark. You want to talk about Fabian Frankel?
18:56 Chris Ryan? I have, I have big things. He's your knight of the seven kingdoms. I have big things planned for Fabian in the show.
19:00 Andy Greenwald? Okay.
19:00 Chris Ryan? I think, I actually came to really appreciate him on Dragon. And there's something about his swagger.
19:10 Andy Greenwald? Okay.
19:11 Chris Ryan? And I wonder, I've seen a few, like, Instagram reels where he's talked, he's, he's very excited to debut the Philly accent. And, and he was very excited to get involved with local Philadelphia cuisine. And all the British people on House of Dragon are just like, whatever. But he's just like, no, it's all about hoagies and cheesesteaks and yada, yada.
19:33 Andy Greenwald? Right.
19:33 Chris Ryan? I just can't wait to see this kid and see what he's got cooking.
19:36 Andy Greenwald? First of all, I don't, having spent a lot of time in London recently and having some of the best restaurants I've ever been to. That said, I think in terms of like foodways, I think cheesesteaks and hoagies are right down the middle for our friends across the ocean. You know what I mean? Like, I feel like they understand.
19:51 Chris Ryan? For them, it's a flavor bomb. They're like, where is all of this umami and salt?
19:56 Andy Greenwald? Do you think, I mean, have you ever had like jacket potatoes? Or like, you know?
20:01 Chris Ryan? No, for them, when they come to Philly and, and, and, and the, the grease hits. Like, you don't think they're like, where, what are these exotic flavors that are hitting?
20:10 Andy Greenwald? Grease?
20:11 Chris Ryan? Dude, I like eating in England.
20:14 Andy Greenwald? Yes.
20:14 Chris Ryan? But it's, the seasoning part is on the customer there. Like, they don't pre.
20:20 Andy Greenwald? Oh, I see what you mean.
20:20 Chris Ryan? They don't salt the food very well. Like, they, like, it's a lot of, I know you like a clean piece of fish.
20:25 Andy Greenwald? I do. I do, I'm looking at the camera.
20:28 Chris Ryan? And you like to take a little picture of some haddock and just be like, look at my little haddock. Completely untouched by flavor.
20:34 Andy Greenwald? This is what people tune into. You, irrepressible, joyful person, people want to be around. Me, I'm happy with a piece of steamed fish.
20:42 Chris Ryan? Yeah, yeah.
20:43 Andy Greenwald? And yet we make it work.
20:44 Chris Ryan? I know, but I, I, I'm, I'm into, I'm into this. I, Inglesby creating, oh, God, what were we gonna say?
20:52 Andy Greenwald? The pelfry. Is from Jersey.
20:54 Chris Ryan? Yeah, me and Pelfrey, we built on a podcast after Ozark. And I told him during COVID, it was like real deep COVID. But the NFL draft was like the first thing that was live. It was like, we'd just been watching Last Dance and, and stuff. And so I was just like, anything that even pertains to possible future athletics happening? I'm so excited.
21:17 Andy Greenwald? And was he with you?
21:18 Chris Ryan? No, I did a Zoom interview with him.
21:20 Andy Greenwald? Was he with you?
21:21 Chris Ryan? He's a huge Giants fan. And so I was just like, I was just talking about the NFL draft so intensely. He was like, I'm really happy for you, man. I'm glad the draft's coming.
21:31 Andy Greenwald? Do you think that he, oh, cause he would, but he had to be in Philly this last Magic championship season.
21:37 Chris Ryan? I'm sure it was a difficult time for him.
21:38 Andy Greenwald? But do you think that fueled the performance? Wait, my entire expectations for the show just went up a notch, knowing that this haunted performance was fueled by watching Saquon.
21:47 Chris Ryan? I think they shot it maybe mid-season, mid, mid Eagle season. I don't think they were still shooting during the playoffs.
21:53 Andy Greenwald? They knew what was coming.
21:54 Chris Ryan? They knew.
21:55 Andy Greenwald? They knew. And look, I know, uh, Mark Royball, one of the producers is a diehard, uh, 49ers fan. So I feel like there's a lot of like, that's good. And they had to sit in it, you know?
22:04 Chris Ryan? Well, don't make me alarmed that all these Giants and Niners fans have somehow undermined this show.
22:09 Andy Greenwald? I don't think they undermined it. I think this is like, this is what it's going to have to feel like for us now to be winners. They had to like, sit in it.
22:15 Chris Ryan? I don't know.
22:16 Andy Greenwald? The show's gonna be awesome.
22:17 Chris Ryan? See?
22:19 Andy Greenwald? Can't wait.
22:20 Chris Ryan? The only thing I wanted to say is just, uh, Inglesby creating a Pelikanos-esque or Lehane-esque interconnected crime tapestry of the Delaware Valley.
22:33 Andy Greenwald? Yeah.
22:33 Chris Ryan? Is something that I'm incredibly interested in participating in. And Mark Ruffalo hasn't looked this hardcore since Collateral.
22:42 Andy Greenwald? Oh, it's a great performance in Collateral.
22:43 Chris Ryan? It's great goatee. If I could grow a goatee, it would be that.
22:46 Andy Greenwald? You'd want to be like that? Would you?
22:48 Chris Ryan? Slick back hair.
22:49 Andy Greenwald? Yeah.
22:50 Chris Ryan? Button shirt, shirt button all the way up, rolling through LA, goatee.
22:53 Andy Greenwald? Just curious about Pedro Negro. Just, just lots of things for you to learn in your night on earth, literally, your night.
22:59 Chris Ryan? Is that, that's part M, right?
23:01 Andy Greenwald? What?
23:01 Chris Ryan? Part M.
23:02 Andy Greenwald? Yeah, it's part M, but I feel like Ruffalo like-
23:03 Chris Ryan? Dude, he's so good.
23:05 Andy Greenwald? It's a great movie. Should we just podcast about that?
23:07 Chris Ryan? Should we just talk about collateral?
23:09 Andy Greenwald? Has The Ringer ever considered a movie podcast?
23:11 Chris Ryan? Where we go back and watch old ones?
23:12 Andy Greenwald? Yeah.
23:12 Chris Ryan? Yeah. I should, I'll ask Bill.
23:14 Andy Greenwald? Yeah, I think, I think it would go over well.
23:16 Chris Ryan? Um, this is directed by, uh, the episodes were directed by Jeremiah Zagar, who did the Adam Sandler movie Hustle, the basketball movie. And also of note Sally Richardson Whitfield, who did a handful of episodes of Winning Time and Gilded Age. So just wanted to mention that.
23:37 Andy Greenwald? By the way-
23:37 Chris Ryan? Any concerns, any like concern-
23:39 Andy Greenwald? You know Jeremiah's from Philadelphia.
23:40 Chris Ryan? I, I figured, yeah.
23:42 Andy Greenwald? You figured, you feel someone had to be.
23:44 Chris Ryan? Hustle's set in Philly, too.
23:45 Andy Greenwald? Yeah. I mean, is it like? Huh. I'm trying to think of, like, I feel like there ought to be, as part of these tax breaks that, that cities offer or states offer, there should be some requirement that there has to be some local supervision.
23:59 Chris Ryan? Hmm.
24:00 Andy Greenwald? Do you know what I mean? So like, uh, there should have, like, you know, my, my go-to example is, is when Baby Driver was like, "We are in New York City." And everything's like Peachtree State Building.
24:15 Andy Greenwald? They should have just, there should have been someone there to be like, like Rembert should have been hired as the Atlanta advisor.
24:19 Chris Ryan? Sure.
24:20 Andy Greenwald? To just like, let's be honest.
24:21 Chris Ryan? So you think we should have been brought on to just Philly it up?
24:24 Andy Greenwald? I mean, for, for Dope Thief, too.
24:25 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
24:26 Andy Greenwald? Yeah, because that was not Philly enough, among its many other problems.
24:29 Chris Ryan? Uh, the only thing I wanted to mention otherwise is, uh, we don't obviously get like much of a plot, other than there's a crew taking down scores and these cops have to go find them. I don't know- Where, what, like, what Pelfrey is, is he an ex-cop? Is he a cop? Like, I don't know how, like, deep it gets there.
24:48 Andy Greenwald? He's haunted.
24:49 Chris Ryan? But, you know, Heat in Philly is kind of what I drew about. So I'm just, I'm just super excited. We can talk a little bit about another show we're obviously huge fans of that is coming back.
25:01 Andy Greenwald? Do you think, I just want to say, like, we, we talked last week about the Max becoming HBO Max again. And we were saying, like, do you think Casey Blaise was, like, burning a hole in his pocket, knowing that it was changing? But still, he still had to sort of explain the difference again as recently as, like, his appearance on the Town podcast. Do you feel like he was also dying last Thursday when he dropped the task trailer on a day we recorded a podcast?
25:23 Chris Ryan? But like after the fact?
25:24 Andy Greenwald? But you hadn't talked about it yet?
25:25 Chris Ryan? Yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure that was keeping him up at night.
25:28 Andy Greenwald? Do you think he has, like, what do you, Casey, what have you got for me?
25:32 Andy Greenwald? CR hasn't checked in yet.
25:33 Chris Ryan? Um, I want to talk to you about The Bear coming back.
25:36 Andy Greenwald? Okay.
25:36 Chris Ryan? So we are not too far out from the big binge drop. I hope that works out for them.
25:44 Andy Greenwald? Seems to be doing okay.
25:45 Chris Ryan? Yeah, I mean, it's, it's really just a personal grievance. You know what I mean? Like, I understand there takes all kinds. We, we've obviously grappled with the three episodes at a time thing with Andor. We've, we've worked our way through episodic, week-to-week releases. The binges are the binges. They, you know, you, you do what you can. Uh, obviously FX has data that shows everybody likes to watch The Bear in this fashion.
26:07 Andy Greenwald? And they're, they're now used to it. I mean, that is the expectation. You know what, you know what it's like? I don't know if you've ever been to a restaurant, but sometimes at restaurants, they're like, things are just going to come out when the kitchen is ready.
26:17 Chris Ryan? I'm not a fan of that.
26:18 Andy Greenwald? No, I hate that.
26:20 Chris Ryan? I'm not a fan of the salad coming after, like, a hot app, you know?
26:24 Andy Greenwald? You know, you know who, I, I could do that.
26:26 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
26:26 Andy Greenwald? Like, if I was cooking, I promise you, I will not course it out.
26:31 Andy Greenwald? It will just hit. So if I'm paying you at the restaurant, maybe you help me with that part of the, the job.
26:36 Chris Ryan? Um, what were your initial thoughts after watching the season four trailer for The Bear?
26:41 Andy Greenwald? Um, I felt...
26:45 Andy Greenwald? It's hard to, okay, you tell me, is this just confirming my priors? Because I watched this trailer and I was like, oh, there's story here. There's more for this to go because I think that, you know, a sort of mixed reaction to season three, some highs, not lows, but a lot of mid. I think in terms of moving the ball forward or episodes feeling like they had the structure of what we've come to expect as episodes.
27:08 Andy Greenwald? The fact that at least for the purposes of this trailer, it felt sharp. It felt direct. There's literally a ticking clock for the survival of this restaurant. It was a reminder of how much was left, if I may, on the table last season, but also a reminder that there is some dramatic arc here that the show kind of treaded water in last time.
27:31 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
27:31 Andy Greenwald? So I was happy to see my pals again. I thought it was interesting that Eben Mossbackrak delivers essentially the same line in this that he does in the Fantastic Four trailer, where he goes, okay.
27:44 Chris Ryan? He also does the Maximus line from Gladiator where he's like, on my command, unleash hell. It's just.
27:50 Andy Greenwald? Not familiar with that.
27:51 Chris Ryan? Me and, me and Chris Derry are just like seeing each other across time and space.
27:55 Andy Greenwald? Do you think that if we have a slow week this summer, we could just do the 10 things that absolutely were made just for you? My list would be shorter. Mine would be the time that after I became friends or, you know, after I started to like The Leftovers, Damon named Justin Theroux's horse Andy because they had ridden me? That's my contribution to the culture?
28:16 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
28:17 Andy Greenwald? I feel like you have a lot more bespoke.
28:19 Chris Ryan? Yeah, like Anna Karenina.
28:20 Andy Greenwald? Like that was for you?
28:21 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
28:22 Andy Greenwald? Okay.
28:23 Chris Ryan? Like Tolstoy was like, one day, it's gonna be a little homey.
28:26 Andy Greenwald? One day, there's an irrepressible kid.
28:28 Chris Ryan? In Philadelphia, when he turns 47, he's gonna try and see if his brain still works. So he's gonna read this book, one chapter a day.
28:37 Andy Greenwald? And it won't work.
28:40 Chris Ryan? I, I guess, I wanted to ask you, what were the questions that still need to be answered by The Bear? Like, I watched this show for the experience, for the vibe, for the filmmaking, for the music, for the performances. I, I, it's a very, um, I don't know, almost, like, it's, you know how you go to restaurants for atmosphere? I go to The Bear for atmosphere in some ways.
29:01 Andy Greenwald? That's right.
29:02 Chris Ryan? I feel like. Obviously, can Carmy keep it together and keep this restaurant open? Is Sid interested in pursuing a professional life with somebody who she deems to be pretty volatile in Carmy? You know, there's the family aspect of it. There's Richie's kind of maturity. But there is, you know, Oliver Platt being like, you only have this much time to make this restaurant successful.
29:25 Andy Greenwald? Brian Koppelman says it too.
29:27 Chris Ryan? That's true. Um, I, I, I don't know whether the bear staying open or not is, is actually why I'm watching the show. But that's, this is a real like concern trolling.
29:37 Andy Greenwald? No, I, I, look, I think you can, if you do watch the show the way clearly we don't, there are unanswered questions like the review drop. What does it say? And the trailer sort of suggests that maybe it's not a four star rave. There are specific character beats and character journeys. I think the thing that I'm interested in, and I know I said this at length when we were discussing season three, is where the show nets out on the subject of fine dining and of perfectionism and what it does to people and what, whether the goal is ever worth the journey. And there's some hints that the show is probably going, and I, I mean, I sort of believe that the show is going to end
30:17 Andy Greenwald? in a more like psychologically balanced place that may or may not involve some sandwich shop aspects coming back into play. But remember the thing last year, which was the, it was frustrating because it didn't go anywhere. It was just this like dumping of trauma on the table where it's like chaos menu were changing every night. And that's the only way to win.
30:34 Chris Ryan? Sure.
30:34 Andy Greenwald? There's stuff in the trailer suggesting that maybe chaos isn't how to have a successful business slash life.
30:38 Chris Ryan? Right.
30:40 Andy Greenwald? So I'm, I'm curious to see where it nets out on that. Broadly speaking, I've, like you, I've never watched the show to find out what happened to the Russian and Pine Barons. You know, like I, I like hanging out with these people. I like the way the show is performed and shot. I think I texted you this when the announcement came that it was coming next month. I did think it was interesting and maybe it changed today because I didn't see, I didn't really look into the marketing materials.
31:06 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
31:07 Andy Greenwald? But none of them said final season.
31:09 Chris Ryan? I, you know, you're the, you're not even the first person to mention this and I guess I haven't, I don't have an answer for that. It never occurred to me that there would be more bear.
31:19 Andy Greenwald? No.
31:20 Chris Ryan? Possibly because of just what we already know about the direction of people's careers. I suppose.
31:25 Andy Greenwald? Including Chris's.
31:26 Chris Ryan? If I had to make a guess. That Matty Matheson is like actually the most sort of viable person you could make a fun show about that would actually still be like, yes, I'm not in the Fantastic Four or a Luca Guadagnino movie or a Bruce Springsteen movie.
31:43 Andy Greenwald? Although I would like to see him in all three of those things.
31:45 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
31:46 Andy Greenwald? He is the next Harold of Galactus. I think that it, I guess I was surprised because it is often a way to juice ratings and attention and ultimately award consideration when you make a big deal saying like one last service. I also think, again, no actual inside knowledge in this, we've not talked to Chris, I think, since the last time he was on the podcast, but I am sure there were informal conversations, even if they were just sitting around craft services, being like, what if, about how they could continue to be in this business one way or another.
32:17 Chris Ryan? I'm sure.
32:18 Andy Greenwald? But they filmed this, for the most part, last year when they filmed season three. So it's not like this has been, it's not like the larger restaurant of the show has stayed open.
32:28 Chris Ryan? Yes.
32:29 Andy Greenwald? For the last year.
32:30 Chris Ryan? Right.
32:31 Andy Greenwald? So I guess, you know, it could be a simple thing and maybe one of our friends from FX will email us and be like, oh, here's why we do that or don't do that.
32:37 Chris Ryan? Strangely, this is the kind of show that I would not be averse to them revisiting in 10 years or in eight years. It's like, where's Carmy now? Where are these people now? Have they decided to come together to do something, you know?
32:49 Andy Greenwald? Can I recommend for people who like The Bear and are waiting for the next month to recommend an article, a review that came out from the San Francisco Chronicle over the last few days?
32:59 Chris Ryan? Sure, man.
33:00 Andy Greenwald? The new food critic went to pay her respects and also observe the French Laundry.
33:05 Chris Ryan? Mm-hmm.
33:06 Andy Greenwald? And Thomas Keller.
33:07 Chris Ryan? Gavin Newsom's favorite, yeah.
33:08 Andy Greenwald? Gavin Newsom's favorite, your governor's number one spot. He, do you listen to his podcast?
33:14 Chris Ryan? I've seen clips.
33:15 Andy Greenwald? You didn't answer my question.
33:17 Chris Ryan? I mean, I've seen clips. I've not fired it up, but you know, I think that that's a great use of a governor's time.
33:22 Andy Greenwald? I totally agree, doing what we do.
33:24 Chris Ryan? Someone who loves to pod, I get it.
33:27 Andy Greenwald? The, uh, so Thomas Keller, the founder and owner.
33:30 Chris Ryan? That's really cooking over here, so.
33:31 Andy Greenwald? Not fine, we're good.
33:33 Chris Ryan? Got it on autopilot.
33:34 Andy Greenwald? What does he think about the welcome to dairy trailer? Oh, I can tell you, I just saw it on my drive down here.
33:39 Chris Ryan? Gavin Newsom would probably be a sick third chair for us.
33:42 Andy Greenwald? Yeah, like, people should do what they want to do. And if what you want to do is be a podcaster, by all means, come on in, the water is crowded, but feels fine. You know what I mean?
33:52 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
33:53 Andy Greenwald? Um, I, on the other hand, have no designs on higher office. I would rather not be an elected official of California. So, um, so anyway, Thomas Keller, French Laundry's restaurant, he made a memorable appearance in the season three finale.
34:07 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
34:08 Andy Greenwald? Basically telling.
34:09 Chris Ryan? Showing Carmy how to do a chicken.
34:10 Andy Greenwald? But his life story too, and it was very moving, I think. I thought that was moving, I thought it was sweet, and it was a different angle on a chef that some people are, a titan of the industry that some people are, you know, in awe of or afraid of. But he's sort of had, um, he's been getting kicked a lot. Like, the New York Times revisited Per Se and was like, this isn't very good. And then the New York Times did it again. Your girl Melissa Clark did a double, what, what did you do when you had the two guns on the subway, was it?
34:36 Andy Greenwald? That's what Melissa Clark did to French Laundry and Per Se.
34:39 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
34:41 Andy Greenwald? And so.
34:41 Chris Ryan? Why?
34:42 Andy Greenwald? Well, so it's, it's a, it's a complicated conversation. I think the larger thing is that these restaurants are titans, they cast a long shadow, they are incredibly expensive, and for people who have that money and want to like splurge, they still are a huge destination.
34:55 Chris Ryan? But why did you do the double drive by?
34:56 Andy Greenwald? 20th anniversary and 30th anniversary of, of Per Se and French Laundry respectively. And basically, a lot of it can be boiled down to, like, we are all now living in this chef's world, but grandpa maybe isn't keeping pace anymore.
35:11 Chris Ryan? Okay.
35:11 Andy Greenwald? And so, anyway, the new critic went to the French Laundry under a, she is not anonymous, she has a photo of herself, but she did book it anonymously with friends to review it again two years after the last.
35:23 Chris Ryan? Must be nice.
35:24 Andy Greenwald? Previous critic reviewed it. Keller had her removed from the dining room to meet him in the garden.
35:30 Chris Ryan? Really?
35:30 Andy Greenwald? So he could say, what are your intentions here? And talked about basically like very vulnerably about like how he's attacked.
35:36 Chris Ryan? Well, he's
35:36 Andy Greenwald? And it's unfair.
35:37 Chris Ryan? He's become a little bit of a punching bag.
35:38 Andy Greenwald? And then was gonna ask her to almost kick them out and then said, no, no, actually, I'm gonna cook for you.
35:43 Chris Ryan? Oh.
35:44 Andy Greenwald? And then wouldn't let her pay, even though that ran afoul of like the, anyway, it's a whole thing. She wrote very, um, I thought it was a very well-written piece, like captured his humanity, but also this is a crazy situation.
35:53 Chris Ryan? Uh huh.
35:54 Andy Greenwald? If you're interested in the bear and the toll of restaurants, but also like what role any of these sort of fine dining places play or ought to play in our lives, I thought it was a really smart piece.
36:04 Chris Ryan? That's a great recommendation from you. San Francisco Chronicle?
36:07 Andy Greenwald? What if it wasn't? What if I just like, oh, sorry, it was the East Bay Express. Uh, uh, yeah, I believe so.
36:14 Chris Ryan? Um, okay, so we're excited for the bear. Welcome to Derry, uh, is just the it prequel. Uh, also coming from HBO, I believe that's in the fall. Uh, Bill Skarsgård, uh, you know, returning to the role of Pennywise, the clown that, uh, steals children and pulls them into the sewer for a life of hell.
36:32 Andy Greenwald? Go on. This is
36:34 Chris Ryan? And is he available on Mondays and Wednesdays?
36:37 Andy Greenwald? I think he's a few blocks from our office here in scenic downtown Los Angeles.
36:41 Chris Ryan? He's actually guesting on Gavin Newsom's pod. Pennywise?
36:45 Andy Greenwald? Let me tell
36:46 Chris Ryan? You and I are on both sides, opposite sides of the aisle.
36:49 Andy Greenwald? We're different sides.
36:49 Chris Ryan? I wanna reach out and see what are some of your concerns? I'm interested in all constituents.
36:53 Andy Greenwald? And Pennywise is like, sometimes you just wanna grab kids. And he's like, well, no, I can see that and I respect your choice.
36:59 Chris Ryan? As a guy who lives in the sewer, I just don't get a lot of natural light. What can we do about that?
37:03 Andy Greenwald? Can we all agree, Pennywise, that we love children? We love their laughter? Can we all agree that they brighten our lives? Now, we may disagree on how to engage with children. I take them to lunch at the French Laundry, so they learn about truffles.
37:17 Chris Ryan? You take them to a demonic hellscape.
37:20 Andy Greenwald? But we're all just learning.
37:21 Chris Ryan? Uh.
37:22 Andy Greenwald? We're all just learning.
37:23 Chris Ryan? This looks cool. And I am going into it with an open heart and open eyes because if Andor taught me anything, it's like you can make cool shit out of any of the prequel, like lead up stuff.
37:37 Andy Greenwald? Yeah, I need you on this one.
37:39 Chris Ryan? I know.
37:39 Andy Greenwald? And the reason I need you is I am not ignorant, ignorant. I was a very big fan of the 80s mini series.
37:49 Chris Ryan? Yes.
37:49 Andy Greenwald? Starring Tim Curry and I believe also Harry Anderson was in it. It was one of those classic.
37:53 Chris Ryan? And this series comes from Andy Machete who did the films.
37:56 Andy Greenwald? But I don't really remember the mini series enough and I don't know what made the movies particularly good or gripping or special, so much so that we should have an expectation from this. Can you explain that to me?
38:09 Chris Ryan? Derry is obviously the frequently returned to setting for a lot of Stephen King stories. They tried a couple of years ago with Castle Rock to do a what if we did a kind of anthology-ish show, right? Was Castle Rock an anthology or was it just set in a town in Maine where all the stuff?
38:28 Andy Greenwald? No, it was, it was going to be a, I mean, it was, it was a season, it was a story that folded in all of the pieces.
38:37 Chris Ryan? With a lot of the different characters, right? Lizzy Kaplan played the misery woman, right?
38:42 Andy Greenwald? And there was to be a suggestion that in a potential season two, right? They would fold in more stories and it would somehow be some unified theory of the King verse.
38:49 Chris Ryan? Which I'm, I'm open to discussing, you know?
38:53 Andy Greenwald? Cause you've been silent on that for a while. You're ready to break your silence.
38:56 Chris Ryan? I think I, sometimes I think what I would just, I would say is that I really enjoyed reading the books when I was a kid and I have really liked some of the movies. But when it comes to, I think I made a suggestion here last year or earlier this year that there needed to be like a Kevin Feige of the Stephen King verse who was like, this is how we're gonna lay out these stories and how they might connect, but you know, there's a unifying vision of how we're gonna do these.
39:23 Andy Greenwald? I disagree with that.
39:24 Chris Ryan? Okay, cool.
39:27 Chris Ryan? That's why we're podcasting.
39:28 Andy Greenwald? That's why we have a podcast. It's the first, that's, that's the most we've ever disagreed.
39:31 Chris Ryan? You think that Stephen King's stories are better when they have individual voices kind of taking them in lots of different directions. I, I just mean for, it's cool that Andy Machete is doing this. It had everything from Stand By Me vibes to, you know.
39:45 Andy Greenwald? The movie did.
39:45 Chris Ryan? The, the, the show, the show, Welcome to Derry.
39:48 Andy Greenwald? This new trailer.
39:49 Chris Ryan? Has a little bit of Stand By Me vibes. 1960s kids trying to, you know, make their way in the world and they encounter incredibly evil. Um, I'm not, I'm not, I, I, I'm gonna be there for you and I'm, and I'm, the HBO imprint on it makes me excited for it.
40:03 Andy Greenwald? And, and there's a good cast. There's Jovan Adepo, Chris Chalk. I mean, these are actors that I like in lots of things.
40:08 Chris Ryan? Yeah, I'm excited.
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42:05 Chris Ryan? Let's get into, speaking of HBO shows, let's talk about Last of Us.
42:08 Andy Greenwald? Okay.
42:11 Chris Ryan? There's a couple of different directions I want to go in, but this is the penultimate episode of a seven-episode season.
42:18 Andy Greenwald? Yes, we can confirm that.
42:20 Chris Ryan? We can confirm that. And also, I think it's worth talking about the... I would actually say, despite the fact that we've been talking about this show for about two months now, abrupt feeling of this season. You know, the... And we're going to be doing spoilers for the entire season of Last of Us if you were up until this moment. So if you haven't seen it, obviously you don't care what we have to say, anyway. But I think abrupt is a word I would use for a lot of the things that have happened. Abrupt introductions of characters, abrupt exits of characters. The storytelling and the, you know, expansion from Wyoming to the Pacific Northwest almost felt abrupt, like it didn't feel like a journey. It felt like they went into a little portal
43:03 Chris Ryan? and popped up in Seattle and knew exactly what they were doing, you know? So there's been a little bit of a pacing and structural issue for me this season. And I obviously, like a lot of people, feel like there's a Pedro Pascal-sized hole in the back half of it, for sure. But this episode, and the faces that we encounter in this episode, including Pedro Pascal's, but also Tony Dalton and Joe Pantoliano.
43:24 Andy Greenwald? Yeah.
43:26 Chris Ryan? Some of the best acting of the series happens in these incredibly small spaces.
43:32 Chris Ryan? And I thought it was a remarkable reminder of like how good this series can be, even though those things are now almost becoming teases.
43:42 Andy Greenwald? Right.
43:43 Chris Ryan? What did you think of the episode?
43:44 Andy Greenwald? Well, I'll start with what you just said. If you want to make, if you make the case for this show, I think you would pull two specific things from this season, actually. I think you would take the second episode, obviously, which is just an exemplary television production and filmmaking.
44:01 Chris Ryan? And we should note that this episode and the following, the finale, directed by Neil Druckmann, who is obviously the creator of the game.
44:08 Andy Greenwald? Yes. And this was co-written by his co-writer of the sequel to the game. I think you would also then point to this episode saying, with the resources we have and the artistic pedigree that we hope to bring to the show, this is what we can achieve. To do things that are, frankly, I think, I don't think this is, I don't mean this in a pejorative way, but there's, there is, can be something tedious about backfilling story, about catching you up through time, about doing, you know, traumatic events or origin stories. That can be the most boring part of television to watch or make, but when you are doing it with some, you know, some thoughtful writing and some outrageously talented guest
44:52 Andy Greenwald? stars, it can really get you a long way. So I'm happy about that. I'll also say that just in terms of my own, like what I want to spend my Sunday nights doing, I would rather be celebrating Ellie's birthdays, probably, than seeing Jeffrey Wright torture someone with a copper pan.
45:08 Chris Ryan? Well.
45:09 Andy Greenwald? I mean, we're all different. Again, these are these subtle differences that make me, governor of California, and you, trash clown that lures children into the sewer. But-
45:19 Chris Ryan? Or the CDC of French Laundry, who knows?
45:22 Andy Greenwald? Who can say? But I, I'll also say, though, that with this episode, that the use of time within the episode, what they chose to show us, and then a little, pull out a little bit, you know, expand the aperture a little bit, like how they've chosen to spend this season really is frustrating, I think, in terms of the use of real estate. And I want to be very clear when I say this. This season was affected by the strikes.
45:56 Chris Ryan? Yep.
45:57 Andy Greenwald? It is an expensive show to make and difficult production to corral.
46:01 Chris Ryan? Sure.
46:02 Andy Greenwald? So had the strikes not happened when they happened, I think it's likely that, I don't know if seven episodes after two years was their goal.
46:08 Chris Ryan? They've also taken this idea, and I think there's a lot more narrative from the game to go.
46:15 Andy Greenwald? Mm-hmm.
46:16 Chris Ryan? But the suggestion is that this is going to be a four-season show now.
46:19 Andy Greenwald? Okay.
46:20 Chris Ryan? So I wonder whether, not unlike House of the Dragon, which I think similarly suffered from a, oh, okay.
46:26 Andy Greenwald? We're doing this now?
46:27 Chris Ryan? Yeah, like, I wonder whether or not, like, post-strike, there's a different kind of momentum and structure to the seasons.
46:34 Andy Greenwald? Yeah. Right. I also think that, um, sometimes, I think that sometimes there's some bad faith listening to when we talk about things, or when I criticize things, the implication that I'm like, oh, I'm criticizing this because I could do better. I could not do better. And I also think that, specifically, I could not do better with the, here's the time that we have, here's the real estate, we'll try to do it this way, and we'll do things like we saw in this episode, where we will take a break off a piece of a scene, not show it to you in the season premiere, and then reveal it here where it might have more meaning.
47:05 Chris Ryan? Yes.
47:07 Andy Greenwald? I think there is nothing but good intention in these kind of, this kind of juggling. It's very, very hard to do and have it feel rewarding. I think there are moments when it pays off, and there are moments when it doesn't. Broadly speaking, for this episode, I thought that there were, um, two things that really hit and made sense to me in an episode. One is the second half of the conversation, which I thought was, you know, a great performance, particularly by Pedro Pascal. I thought it was, uh, it was sweet, it adds nuance, it gives you an understanding of what's to come, um, and was worth the wait. Whether this was the place to drop it, I don't know, because I don't know where we're going.
47:45 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
47:46 Andy Greenwald? Second, the walk with Eugene.
47:49 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
47:49 Andy Greenwald? Was outstanding. And it's not just because Joey Pants was good. It was because, and again, I want to be careful when I say this, because my guess is that over 20 combined seasons of all the Walking Dead shows, there's probably been a couple storylines where someone's like, let me just do one thing before I become a monster. Like, that is a, that's probably a zombie trope at this point.
48:08 Chris Ryan? Yeah, I just think that I was very... I was blown away by like, I, I find the writing on this show to be a bit maddeningly literal. You know, when somebody is feeling some, but something, they usually just say it.
48:22 Andy Greenwald? Yes.
48:22 Chris Ryan? With the exception of Joel, which is why I think I gravitated towards him a lot. Just because there was like, it allowed their performance to almost be more nuanced because this is about what this guy can't bring himself to say.
48:35 Andy Greenwald? Right.
48:36 Chris Ryan? And not that everybody's a chatterbox, but it's like, I feel like the character will feel something and just sort of utter it, you know, pretty, pretty routinely. And the Joey Pants character was doing the same thing. Eugene was like, I gotta talk to Gail. There are things I need to tell her. And, you know, we have rules, but then he pulls the gun and the gun's empty. Like just the desperation, the humor, the humanity in that character, it like kind of snapped the show back into focus for me. And I almost feel like the, now I, I admit, what's probably going to happen is that like, you and I watched this and we're like, that's Tony Dalton, that's Joe Panellano. I would imagine 80% of the people watching Last of Us did not register Tony Dalton.
49:21 Andy Greenwald? Right.
49:22 Chris Ryan? You know, I mean.
49:22 Andy Greenwald? Because they didn't watch Hawkeye?
49:23 Chris Ryan? No, because Better Call Saul was like a, a little seen show comparative, in comparison to Last of Us, you know? And I don't think Tony Dalton is like a big star. So it's not like a huge get. It is to us. It is to people who have been watching TV closely. But I, I, it's funny when we have these cameos and it's like, I'm like, that's Alonzo Mac.
49:45 Andy Greenwald? Yeah.
49:45 Chris Ryan? You know, and I don't know if anybody else is feeling that way, but they definitely, these character actors are bringing so much to these small roles.
49:53 Andy Greenwald? You're benefiting from having that person. I think that, the reason I say that like is the Joey Pants thing was that like a, a trope was really only to say, I didn't want to overpraise it and be like, no one's ever done that.
50:02 Chris Ryan? I don't think, yeah.
50:03 Andy Greenwald? What I want to say is, I wanted a whole episode of that. That whole walk, I feel like there's so much pathos and drama and emotion. And even if not the whole episode, I wanted more frankly. And you know, if Craig Mason were here with us, he'd be like, what was that bit with Gavin Newsom? What kind of podcast is this? But the second thing you'd probably say was-
50:24 Chris Ryan? This guy likes sewers?
50:25 Andy Greenwald? He'd probably be like, me too, right? But because we had to do these other things and they did the best they could with it, and I get that. So I don't want to like judge the show harshly for what I wish we had more of. That said, that plus the setting, you know, they filmed this as part of the previous block before they moved, you know, when they were in the wilderness and it was beautiful and where he took them was beautiful. And I found that really, really affecting. Now, I guess I'm in a zag and say it's not a criticism that the older Joey Pantoliano is on a critical patrol run. It actually is inspiring as someone who celebrated a birthday yesterday, that I could still contribute to my society.
51:02 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
51:03 Andy Greenwald? At that point, the way the show sometimes loses me is then there's a whole bunch of secondary things. Like, I'm not saying Joel should break the rules, break protocol. They make a big deal of saying he's a guest in this community even then. He is a expert marksman and bone shaver, by the way. He can really make a guitar. But he is also traveling with the only person in the world who is immune. So I just feel like it's a numbers game with older Joey Pants and I feel like they could have walked him back.
51:38 Chris Ryan? Yeah, I mean, presumably Ellie could die of blood loss if they were just, if she just got not on for a while.
51:43 Andy Greenwald? By Joe Pantoliano?
51:45 Chris Ryan? I'm just saying, like, yeah. The idea of there being rules in their recreated burgeoning society.
51:53 Andy Greenwald? Right.
51:53 Chris Ryan? And which rules Joel follows.
51:57 Chris Ryan? Versus the ones that he decides to break. And what his quote unquote mission is in this life. And it's basically to protect Ellie. Like, he takes her on as this surrogate daughter. He guides her west. He gets her all the way to this place that he's been asked to take her. And then decides that what they're doing breaks his kind of protocol. You know what I mean?
52:17 Andy Greenwald? Yeah, I, I think that the other thing that I'm struggling with is the journey in the first season was, you know, I definitely had issues. I'm on record with having issues with that season. But there was a cleanliness to the through line of the mission. She's a magic item, like from a J.J. Abrams movie, right? Like, she's secure it. And then the magic becomes transferred to her person. And then he has to save the person because this is a magic person. The years following, what's interesting about that is that magic allure of she could save the world goes away. And then she becomes, like we all are, like a flawed person, you know, who becomes a teenager and that friction. I really liked, I, I imagine there might be some debate about it.
52:59 Andy Greenwald? I actually liked the museum space launch scene. Thought that was really sweet. And I like that the show kind of left reality for a moment to let her have that moment.
53:13 Andy Greenwald? I still struggle with kind of buying the central relationship. And maybe this is, maybe this is a feature, not a bug, right? That he is just pouring everything that he didn't get to pour into his actual daughter into this vessel, who is her own person.
53:28 Andy Greenwald? But I, I find it, I still find it tough. And I also think you were talking about the way the writing is sometimes declarative. I do think sometimes the writing lets Bella Ramsey down because her dialogue is just primarily being angry with an F-bomb in the middle of it. I, I don't know why I'm turning into a prude here because I now have a about to be 12 year old who is, who's become quite fond of some swear words.
53:49 Chris Ryan? Oh, really?
53:50 Andy Greenwald? But.
53:50 Chris Ryan? What's, what's her favorite?
53:52 Andy Greenwald? I wish I had a funnier one of them in my tongue. Yeah, she likes the hits.
53:56 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
53:57 Andy Greenwald? She likes pop music and popular swear words. I think that it kind of, it feels reductive just how often. You fucking lied to me, Joel. Like, yep. What else?
54:09 Chris Ryan? Yeah, I, I, I try sometimes to just kind of imagine like, this is not a person who's done a lot of rea- not reading, but like, I, after they've kind of arrived at their teenage vocabulary, they've then become essentially an infantry person in an army against the walking
54:29 Andy Greenwald? It's true.
54:29 Chris Ryan? You know, of zombies. So they're not like, like myself maybe banging out a chapter a day of Corinna. You know what I mean? Like,
54:39 Andy Greenwald? You know what I wish? Like, it depends what she's reading too, though, because like, one of my, just to loop it back to, to Welcome to Derry. When you're a kid and you're reading Stephen King books and you start reading your first one, there is an element of like, you going to your friend's house and watching Commando where you're like, oh, whoa. And he uses some salty language. Have we talked about this? That like, I'm still, have not gotten over reading The Stand or one of these books and like, on page 18, after using all the other familiar swear words, one character goes, whore master.
55:10 Andy Greenwald? I'm like, what? What?
55:13 Chris Ryan? Mom?
55:15 Andy Greenwald? Explain.
55:18 Andy Greenwald? In what scenario is it better to say that?
55:20 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
55:20 Andy Greenwald? Than some of the classic ones?
55:21 Chris Ryan? Right.
55:22 Andy Greenwald? But maybe Ellie should try it.
55:24 Chris Ryan? I also think, from what I can understand about the, just, I honestly read more about the discourse surrounding the show from game fans than I read the literal discourse.
55:33 Andy Greenwald? Oh, so what's going on with our pals?
55:35 Chris Ryan? I think there's some disappointment about like, this show on the part of the game fans. I, this is one of those funny things where we'll watch a Star Wars show or a Marvel movie or whatever, and we'll be like, well, actually, this is BBY 4, you know, so.
55:49 Andy Greenwald? Was that me?
55:50 Chris Ryan? No, but that's me too. But like, I don't have any investment in how this show goes one way or the other, as long as it's good. I do think in the next season, it will be quite different. You are essentially tying a bow on the Joel story with this episode and with these, this season. That's changed. We've been introduced to Jeffrey Wright's Isaac character and Caitlin Dever's Abby character. And we have the Sarah fights. So we have this new kind of like landscape of adversaries out there. Ellie has a completely different mission now, which is essentially to get vengeance for Joel's death. That she seems to be prioritizing above all others, but now also has this knowledge of Dina's being expecting a child.
56:29 Andy Greenwald? She's gonna be a dad, she said.
56:30 Chris Ryan? So there's that tension and we are also in Seattle. We're, you know, as far west as you can get in this country. So like, I think this is gonna now kind of settle into a different kind of series.
56:40 Andy Greenwald? Okay. It's just interesting then. And it is a little, you can't talk about this without talking about the strike. It seems like, and I don't think, neither of us have watched the finale or screened or the finale. We'll be talking about it next week.
56:54 Andy Greenwald? This is really House of the Dragon-y, starting to feel to me because we could potentially, for people who don't know or don't care, House of the Dragon, season two, built up to
57:05 Chris Ryan? A battle.
57:05 Andy Greenwald? likely would be a super sick dragon battle and then ended on the precipice of it being like, well, this is gonna, this is gonna feel good when it comes in 2026 or whenever it is.
57:14 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
57:14 Andy Greenwald? Uh, and I think a lot of people were left like, wait, what? I think we might be, is that a good Rusillo imitation?
57:23 Andy Greenwald? I can work on it. I, I think, uh, I'm starting to realize, and I don't know what's gonna happen in this episode, but you just laid it out, that a show that is more about Isaac and Abby and all these things, is this episode gonna end right on the precipice of that? And then we have to wait two years for any resolution to what this season-
57:43 Chris Ryan? I don't think she's getting Abby in this next episode.
57:45 Andy Greenwald? So is this a, so do we end up with this kind of throat clearing season, which is, you know, artistically interesting and viable and the Joel stuff hit? But I don't know, and I'm curious, audiences' tolerance for this in terms of their like, investment portfolio. It hits different when it's 24 to 28 months before you get more of it. Like, taking a season to be like, I'm gonna get you from here to here, but you won't believe where we're going next, is it a wonderful luxury?
58:13 Andy Greenwald? But these gaps really, really hurt.
58:15 Chris Ryan? Well, in the same way that we're like, it's Tony Dalton, holy shit. You know, I think that we're also probably- Not representative of like a pretty normal TV watcher when we're like, you know, anguished over the delays between seasons where there are many people who probably are like, I watched both of these seasons together, you know, I hadn't, I didn't, I'm catching up on it. It's true. You know, there's so many different experiences of it, but I, I am actually like weirdly excited for a Jeffrey Wright, Caitlin Dever post-apocalypse show with Bella Ramsey.
58:45 Andy Greenwald? I am as well. I mean, I think that this is my, this is my hardest criticism take, like the young, young lovers finding their way in a post-apocalyptic landscape CW show is not working for me.
58:59 Chris Ryan? Okay.
58:59 Andy Greenwald? I, I, I am not buying it and I'm not really, I'm not compelled by it in any way.
59:05 Chris Ryan? You're sending that dish back to Thomas Keller.
59:08 Andy Greenwald? I'm sending it back.
59:09 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
59:09 Andy Greenwald? I'm sending it back. That's right.
59:11 Chris Ryan? Um, we'll be back with you guys on Thursday. A bunch of stuff to talk about. So like we, Duster, we're gonna maybe check in on that.
59:19 Andy Greenwald? I watched Duster, yeah.
59:20 Chris Ryan? I've, uh, I'm current on Hundred Foot Wave.
59:24 Andy Greenwald? Good for you. Wait, what about, when does the studio finale drop?
59:26 Chris Ryan? Studio finale is on Wednesday.
59:28 Andy Greenwald? God, that's just.
59:28 Chris Ryan? I believe.
59:29 Andy Greenwald? I, how, how, we love this show.
59:30 Chris Ryan? So we'll talk studio, we'll talk a bunch, we're gonna catch up on other shows.
59:34 Andy Greenwald? Okay.
59:34 Chris Ryan? That we missed while we were kinda deep diving in.
59:36 Andy Greenwald? Do you wanna tell me about what other shows are now or let's wait till we wrap?
59:39 Chris Ryan? Well, I'm saying Hundred Foot Wave, Duster, Studio.
59:42 Andy Greenwald? I'll take notes.
59:43 Chris Ryan? Um, I, I feel like we owe Friends and Neighbors a final check in.
59:47 Andy Greenwald? We do. Is it almost over?
59:48 Chris Ryan? It's almost over and, uh, what was the other one that I was telling you about? Overcompensating on Amazon's pretty amusing. I go, there's a bunch of shows out there, yeah, so.
59:56 Andy Greenwald? And, and, and there's some, it's summer movie season about to hit.
59:59 Chris Ryan? That's right. I know that that's where your true passion lies.
1:00:02 Andy Greenwald? Yeah, I mean, all of a sudden I heard that there's a fixed third chair opportunity. You know, they've just been sort of substitute teacher-ing it for a while.
1:00:11 Chris Ryan? If you want the third chair in Big Pick, I'm sure you could throw your hat in the ring.
1:00:14 Andy Greenwald? I cannot think, I, you know how we were saying Last of Us, we were, last week when we were like, well, video game fans are mad and TV fans are mad. Who's this for? That's me on the big picture. Like, that would be an incredible troll. No one would be happy.
1:00:30 Chris Ryan? Thanks to Kaya and John, we'll be back on Thursday.
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Previous HBO Max Is Back (Though It Never Really Left) and Four Lessons Learned From ‘Andor’ Next Live at ‘Everybody’s Live’ and ‘The Studio’ Season Finale Page updated November 3, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated