Will Apple Own the Emmys This Year? Plus, ‘House of the Dragon’ S3E4 With Joanna Robinson.

Chris is joined by Joanna Robinson to talk about Apple’s surprising Emmy turnout, the Outstanding Drama Series nominations, the state of comedy, and more takeaways from this year’s slate of Emmy nominations (2:50). Then they talk about the surprising lack of summer TV and the potential reasons behind it (20:27). Later, they discuss ‘House of the Dragon’ Season 3, Episode 4 (32:16). Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of The Watch and so much more! Host: Chris Ryan Guest: Joanna Robinson Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Additional Video Supervision: Sarah Reddy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tremfya offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tremfya is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject Tremfya, proper training is required. Tremfya is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis, serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis.

• 0:44Speaker 00

  Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tremfya today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit tremfyradio.com.

• 1:00Speaker 01

  This episode is brought to you by NASS Energy. Every ounce of dirt, sweat, and gears, every checkered flag and trophy raised, every lap, every race, every hard-fought place. They're all jammed inside every can of NASS Energy. High-performance energy for burning the midnight oil in the garage and pedal-to-the-metal human horsepower for the streets. Go ahead, crack open a can of NASS Energy and get after it.

• 1:29Speaker 02

  Playing sports, have to clear the room.

• 1:32Speaker 02

  Stand up and walk now.

• 1:34Chris Ryan?

  Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at TheRinger.com. Joining me in the studio, bringer and her parmander is Joy Robinson.

• 1:47Speaker 04

  Christopher Ryan, what a joy, what a delight. We missed you so much on Talk of Thrones this week.

• 1:51Chris Ryan?

  You did an able-bodied job replicating my aura. I thought the A's hat was incredible.

• 1:57Speaker 04

  Great.

• 1:57Chris Ryan?

  Black CR is definitely a character that either me or Van can experiment with.

• 2:03Speaker 04

  Yeah, which one do you think?

• 2:04Chris Ryan?

  I think Van.

• 2:05Speaker 04

  Yeah, okay.

• 2:07Chris Ryan?

  We are here on Monday. It's Odyssey Week. It's World Cup Week.

• 2:11Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:11Chris Ryan?

  World Cup semis Tuesday, Wednesday, and then the final on Sunday.

• 2:14Speaker 04

  I know.

• 2:15Chris Ryan?

  But there's still television to talk about.

• 2:16Speaker 04

  Is it coming home? What do you think?

• 2:19Chris Ryan?

  I think that the English national team will beat Argentina. I don't think that they will beat to win the final, though.

• 2:24Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 2:24Chris Ryan?

  Unless there is like five injuries in the Spain-France match.

• 2:28Speaker 04

  Spain-England? Is that your guess?

• 2:30Chris Ryan?

  I have Spain winning it before the tournament, so I suppose I should just stick with my prediction.

• 2:34Speaker 04

  Why not?

• 2:35Chris Ryan?

  You have gotten swept up in World Cup fever.

• 2:38Speaker 04

  It's the monoculture. I love it.

• 2:40Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. There's also just like, it's a really narrative-rich tournament, you know? And there's lots of like, you can watch it and just be like, "Great game." Or you can watch and be like, "Now I need to find out everything about the guy who got sent off from Switzerland for simulation."

• 2:55Speaker 04

  And I did.

• 2:55Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:56Speaker 04

  It said "mistaken identity" on the caption. I was like, "What's happening here?"

• 3:03Chris Ryan?

  I wanted to talk to you about a couple of things today. I want to chat with you a little bit about the Emmys. Andy ably monologued about it on Thursday or Friday. And he also had Matt and Ben from Star City on to discuss that show, which I thought was extraordinary in its first season and really hope it comes back. I think Andy and I will talk more in depth about that on Thursday, but I wanted to ask you about the Emmys.

• 3:24Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 3:24Chris Ryan?

  I wanted to talk to you a little bit about, kind of coming out of the Emmys, what we have for the rest of the summer, which is really not very much. And then we could do a little bit of a Dragon check-in. Because obviously, you are extensively breaking it down both on Sunday nights and with Mal tomorrow, but...

• 3:41Speaker 04

  But I need the episode for thoughts.

• 3:43Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, and I also just think it's like, we're about midway through, or midway-ish. And I think it's a good time to do a check. I did some Man on the Street reporting in Philadelphia, and people were surprised at our adoration for three, episode three, but generally think this season is awesome.

• 4:01Speaker 04

  Okay. But they were like, "The moody think piece."

• 4:04Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, they were like, "There's not enough dragons in that one."

• 4:06Speaker 04

  Got it.

• 4:06Chris Ryan?

  I want battles.

• 4:08Speaker 04

  I want princes to die and ships to burn.

• 4:10Chris Ryan?

  Innocent shepherds ignited, burnt to a crisp. So let's talk a little bit about the Emmys before we get into the specific shows. I am on the record as saying I don't really think the Emmys have the same value as the Oscars, obviously. I mean, I don't think that they do. And that I am a little bit annoyed at the amount of gymnastics the TV industry seems to be doing for the Emmys and for the Emmy eligibility window. I suppose one could look at this set of nominees... And say, well, that's why they do it because there are a couple of shows, say Task, our beloved Task, which I don't think got nearly enough nominations.

• 4:50Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 4:52Chris Ryan?

  Or a show like Industry, which didn't quite, you know, come up against the prime, prime window, I don't think. But.

• 4:58Speaker 04

  But then stuff like The Gilded Age or Pluribus, you know?

• 5:03Chris Ryan?

  Which now seem to be like, kind of, I can see those shows being kind of almost grandfathered in, like, stamp that every year, you know?

• 5:10Speaker 04

  Gilded Age, yeah, for sure.

• 5:11Chris Ryan?

  As somebody who follows the Oscars quite closely.

• 5:14Speaker 04

  I do.

• 5:15Chris Ryan?

  What's your, like, vibe on the Emmys? What's your, what's your, how do you feel about the Emmys?

• 5:20Speaker 04

  Well, so the, the value I see in the Oscars, I will say, is the winners help determine what kind of stories get made, right? Do you think that there's no correlation between Emmy wins and what kind of stories get made?

• 5:35Chris Ryan?

  What an awesome question. I don't. I think that there can be moments in TV, whether it's Lost or Homeland, where you can feel executives turn around and say, where's my version of that? And while those shows, I think, were recognized for Emmys pretty heavily at various points in their runs, I don't, was Lost an Emmy show?

• 5:59Speaker 04

  Early.

• 5:59Chris Ryan?

  Early on.

• 6:00Speaker 04

  First season, I believe.

• 6:02Chris Ryan?

  I don't really get the impression that that's driving, like, the sort of data-rich, algorithmic streaming programming these days. But I do think that one of the ways in which these streamers have bought their way into Hollywood in general is to go nuts for it, for awards.

• 6:18Speaker 04

  This is my first F Y C. season in Los Angeles, so I'm getting to experience it a little differently and see, like, a bit more of that, of that money and how it's spent. And thinking about Apple specifically, which wasn't the hot, you know, didn't get the most nominees out of the various platforms, but performed quite well in the Emmy nominations this year. Their model right now, which is a huge money loser, right?

• 6:45Chris Ryan?

  We assume, yeah.

• 6:47Speaker 04

  Seems as such. I think they would report if there was profitability.

• 6:51Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, even their most popular show, like Ted Lasso, for instance, I don't think would be a drop in the bucket compared to like a Taylor Sheridan show personally.

• 7:01Speaker 04

  But it's not even just numbers, it's just like money in money, like, you know, they don't have ads and they pour billions of dollars into, like billion of the B, into their content. So it's almost like, if you look at like Apple and Amazon, these are just sort of like, oh, and we have a streamer. You know, we make all of our money on our devices or we make all of our money with people buying toilet paper, in Amazon's case, and then also we have a streamer because Tim Cook and Jeff Bezos want to be part of the Hollywood. And so like Tim Cook, let's say specifically with Apple, wanting to like be at the Emmys and be part of the Emmy conversation, and obviously Tim Cook's about to not be the chief over there, but Tim Cook

• 7:44Speaker 04

  wanting to be part of that Hollywood conversation means that Apple is chasing a certain kind of show, which means that the Apple lineup to me right now, looks a bit like what HBO did a while ago.

• 7:57Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, where it took the lessons that HBO taught and said, okay, like, what's the more, I don't want to say vanilla, but what's the safer version of this?

• 8:06Speaker 04

  Absolutely. I mean, safer, I would agree with. I would even agree with vanilla, honestly, but like, and there are Apple shows that both of us really love.

• 8:12Chris Ryan?

  Of course, yeah.

• 8:13Speaker 04

  Of course, but like, and that star model that they have, but HBO is doing this interesting pivot, and obviously HBO got the highest number of Emmy nominations, so it's not like it's slouching around, but like, they're doing this IP pivot, you know, that's part of their new model.

• 8:29Chris Ryan?

  Going through a merger.

• 8:30Speaker 04

  Yeah, so. Apple has an opportunity and I feel like in the conversations that I've had with people inside of the industry, Apple is chewing up a lot of space in the conversation.

• 8:41Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I would also say for as much as that they're taking a little bit of the space from HBO, they're filling the vacuum that Netflix seems to have left by more or less pivoting away from prestige awards-driven TV fare. I think every year they still have a couple of movies that they splash around for.

• 8:59Speaker 04

  Do you think it was Apple winning the Oscar for Coda and Netflix is just like, "Fuck it. We've been trying for years."

• 9:08Chris Ryan?

  I don't know. I will be very interested to see where this conversation is this time next year and where especially the movies on Netflix conversation is for this time next year. But I do feel like Netflix, while still having two or three like very notable releases a year, for our purposes, it's fewer and farther in between where I'm like, there's a Netflix show that we need to talk about.

• 9:33Speaker 04

  What is the latest you've heard about this idea that there might be an adolescent season two?

• 9:37Chris Ryan?

  I have not heard that.

• 9:38Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's in the conversation and I'm just like...

• 9:40Chris Ryan?

  With the same characters or just like riffing on like similar themes?

• 9:43Speaker 04

  Might be anthology, but that sort of shocked me a bit. But you know, it's like one of the biggest hits they've ever had.

• 9:52Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I mean, on one hand, I can kind of see why. I mean, they basically, because of when they released it, went on an 18-month award jag for it. So it's like clearly something that has just been anointed. You know, Jack Thorne, I can't believe he has the time. But Stephen Graham, if he can squeeze that in after Heat 2, all power to him. I wanted to ask you about the outstanding drama nominations because that was, let me just call it, the noms up here really quickly because that was one...

• 10:24Speaker 04

  Where you threw your computer across the room?

• 10:26Chris Ryan?

  I didn't throw anything. I was like, this is sort of what I imagined was gonna happen. You know, there are shows here that I have not gotten a chance to watch or have fallen behind on. So like Diplomat, Phoebe, my wife loves that show. I have not gotten... See beyond season one, I think.

• 10:44Speaker 04

  I was a little surprised that The Diplomat was here. I know that it's, as it's become increasingly like West Wing methadone, you know, as they just like bring more and more cast members from the West Wing on like, I, I understand that it's maybe feeling a bit, but it's so soapy to me in a way that I was surprised that it's here.

• 11:00Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, and then Gilded Age, I think I have, I've loved at various points. I find it eminently watchable and entertaining, but those two are at the top. And then you've got Night of the Seven Kingdoms, Paradise, season two, Andy and I talked about with amusement, but I don't think was as good as the first season. The Pit, Pluribus, Slow Horses, Your Friends and Neighbors. And I wanted to say.

• 11:24Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 11:25Chris Ryan?

  I was gonna ask you, like, you know, is there any like, I'd trade this for that in the outstanding drama that you can think of?

• 11:33Speaker 04

  Easy. Your Friends and Neighbors, it's preposterous that this is here, despite what I just said about Apple. Like, I think that show is terrible and I'm confused why it's here. So like, Industry is the biggest snub, obviously. I'll Come Correct on the Watch and, and Honor Your God, which is Industry. But also like, you know, this season of Industry was incredible.

• 11:54Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, and it's, I, I know that Andy, I'm not sure if Andy hit this when he did his pod, but I, Andy illuminated to me over the weekend when I saw him. He was just kinda like, that's just not something, like, the voting block is conservative in so much as, like, they're not gonna go for an overly bleak nihilistic, fast-talking, British, like.

• 12:17Speaker 04

  Maybe.

• 12:18Chris Ryan?

  Coke drama, I, you know, but I, I, I would definitely, I would go as far as to trade off Slow Horses for Industry. Like, I would get rid of one of my darlings.

• 12:27Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 12:28Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 12:28Speaker 04

  And then the Lowdown, I would put in here before I would put The Diplomat or Paradise with love and respect. Like, or I'm not really into The Gilded Age personally, but like, The Pit being here, Pluribus being here, those two feel incredibly important.

• 12:41Chris Ryan?

  And I'm happy for Night of the Seven Kingdoms.

• 12:43Speaker 04

  And I'm like thrilled for Night of the Seven Kingdoms. I'm, I was a little surprised that, that it didn't get like a single acting nom. If, if they were like considering it in this category. That it didn't get a single acting on, but maybe that's like a a season two choice. I guess my other question, and and you know, you and I are not Emmy scholars, but like, is something with industry a bit more like if they weren't on board from the very beginning with the show, they don't love to get in on it.

• 13:08Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I would have to go back and look at how Breaking Bad developed into the Emmy juggernaut that it became, and a lot of that I think was driven by Cranston and his performance.

• 13:18Speaker 04

  But was The Netflix bum.

• 13:19Chris Ryan?

  Breaking Bad, a or a first season Emmys thing?

• 13:23Speaker 04

  I don't think so, and I think, I mean, that just became undeniable in a way that industry unfortunately isn't. Industry is like a smaller, like in terms of numbers.

• 13:33Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I was trying to think of something that would be like aspirational for industry now going into its final season, so it's a little bit beyond the point, but maybe a better comp would be Saul, where I don't think that that had a lot of recognition early on, but then started to towards the end.

• 13:48Speaker 04

  And there is, there was a bit for a time, a sort of like, it's time for Jon Hamm, you know, it's time for Kyle Chandler or something, you know what I mean? Like, it's time for Matthew Reese with the Americans, you know, so, but I think that has more to do with performance than like, they like, what the Emmys like to do, the TV Academy like to do, is rubber stamp a show from the beginning and then just sort of stick with

• 14:10Chris Ryan?

  Give it an award for five years.

• 14:11Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 14:12Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, so we saw that with obviously West Wing, we saw that with Modern Family, like, you know, there are, there are historic runs that shows go on. I was actually, that sort of dovetails nicely into the next thing I wanted to ask you about, which was a show that we obviously both adored and covered extensively was Widows Bay, kind of a late breaking show and so much as I think it was still running when voting, when the window closed at least, or, you know, so like a couple of those episodes technically wouldn't be

• 14:38Speaker 04

  I think they could only deliver the first episode I wanted. It's like something like really Um.

• 14:45Chris Ryan?

  Like highly technical about that?

• 14:47Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 14:47Chris Ryan?

  Do you think then that a, is it like a, is it a runaway train? Or is it like a nice pleasant late surprise? Like, is, because Widows by Bay by far, among people I talked to, is the most beloved new show of the year.

• 15:02Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 15:03Chris Ryan?

  And so I didn't know whether that would necessarily translate to, to voting.

• 15:07Speaker 04

  Um, I, I wasn't surprised that it got nominated. I was not surprised that Matthew, Matthew Reese getting nominated felt like a, a lock to me. Him getting double nominated is fascinating.

• 15:17Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 15:17Speaker 04

  Um, Kato Flynn, I was like, pretty sure. But like Dale Dickey getting nominated, I think is, that's when you, you get really excited for a show.

• 15:26Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, and Lick later and Gilpin do kind of guest nods, yeah.

• 15:28Speaker 04

  Yeah, like when, when they start to dominate in the guest category, you know, the, the White Lotus phenomenon, or the pit phenomenon, where it's just sort of like, how many actors from this show can we sort of?

• 15:39Chris Ryan?

  Are there three or four, uh, supporting actresses in the pit?

• 15:43Speaker 04

  I think it's four, but Nani Supriyan is for, for some reason.

• 15:45Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 15:46Speaker 04

  Yeah. And so it's just sort of like, that, when you start to nominate sort of down the cast list, that's why, that's when it's not just sort of like, oh, a shiny new thing fluke. It's, let's take this seriously. And if I were HBO, so certain that Hacks, the final season of Hacks, which also got heavily, heavily nominated, uh, hugely nominated, but if I were so certain that like, you know, Gene Smart was again gonna win and, and et cetera, et cetera, I, I would put a little bit more oomph behind my campaign.

• 16:16Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I, you know, so the other comedy, outstanding comedies nominated, or nobody wants this, The Bear, Abbott Shrinking, Only Murders, and the aforementioned Hacks, and.

• 16:26Speaker 04

  Only, Only Murders is one of those where like, they decided early on, Only Murders.

• 16:30Chris Ryan?

  And they've just, they really want Steve Martin and Martin Short to come to the ceremony.

• 16:34Speaker 04

  Here, here it is.

• 16:35Chris Ryan?

  But if, if you'd asked me three months ago, or two months ago, I would have just been like, yeah, this is Hacks' victory lap and like, the sort of great bear war is over and, you know, that Hacks won and can write.

• 16:47Speaker 04

  They won that whisper campaign of, is this really a comedy?

• 16:49Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, it wasn't that much of a whisper, it was shouting, yeah.

• 16:52Speaker 04

  The shout campaign, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 16:53Chris Ryan?

  Um, but. I do wonder whether or not the sheer excitement around Widows Bay, around something new, around something tonally a little bit different from stuff that's come out maybe over the last couple of years is like significant enough to push it. I think that there will be, it's not going to be like a clean sweep for Hacks, I don't think.

• 17:13Speaker 04

  I would love to see that. I would love to see more division. Like, it really gets so boring at the Emmys when it's just sort of like The Pit wins everything and Hacks wins everything. And you just sort of zone out in the beginning of the ceremony and don't tune back in, basically. But like, if it's, if it's parceled out a bit more, like, Jean Smart should get her umpteenth Emmy.

• 17:34Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 17:35Speaker 04

  She should get it. So should Hannah Imaner, but I would not be upset if like a Kate O'Flynn, who just like came out of nowhere, absolutely crushed it. Everyone is obsessed with her. Like, that would just be really fun and like, sort of like a handing off of the baton of just sort of like, Hacks is bowing out, Widows Bay is fresh and brand new.

• 17:53Chris Ryan?

  I also kind of want this to happen for Widows Bay because it doesn't feel like it's going to be ready until, I mean, at the very least, late next year, I would imagine.

• 18:04Speaker 04

  Wouldn't it be fun if it was a Halloween show?

• 18:07Chris Ryan?

  It would be, but she's just starting to write it, I think. Kate?

• 18:11Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 18:12Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 18:12Speaker 04

  I think that's true, but also, isn't it true that she's like, had, at least had like ideas in the tank for a long time? I think you're probably right, but I am trying to be optimistic about shows coming back and this idea of like, the pitification, I guess is what we're calling it. But like, how excited are we, two people who talk a lot about television, that next January, if all goes according to plan, we get another season of Night of the Seven Kingdoms and we get The Pit, starting its several month run.

• 18:41Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 18:41Speaker 04

  And it's just sort of like, those are two great shows, at the top of the year, that we can feel confident.

• 18:46Chris Ryan?

  And we could get Task relatively soon after that.

• 18:48Speaker 04

  That would be thrilling.

• 18:49Chris Ryan?

  I guess. No, probably not until like summer, I would imagine.

• 18:52Speaker 04

  It would be a great summer show.

• 18:53Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 18:54Speaker 04

  All that quarry.

• 18:56Chris Ryan?

  We gotta get back to the, we gotta get back to rock diving.

• 19:19Speaker 05

  Trifluoridone, guselcomab, taken by injection, is a prescription medicine for adults with active psoriatic arthritis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine.

• 19:44Speaker 05

  Imagine being a million miles away. Explore the possibilities. Ask your doctor about Trifluoridone. Tap this ad to see new joint data and learn more about Trifluoridone, including important safety information.

• 20:00Speaker 01

  This episode is brought to you by Panda Express. Telling someone you love them, it isn't always easy, but showing them through food, sometimes that's better than words, especially when that food's wok-cooked at Panda Express, a Joe House favorite. Pick from delicious classics like orange chicken, honey walnut shrimp, kung pao chicken, and black pepper sirloin steak. Perfect when you're watching the team you love or eating with the person you love. Have you eaten yet? Click or tap the banner to order or visit a Panda Express near you.

• 20:32Speaker 06

  Visible puts the ultimate wireless hack in the palm of your hand. With unlimited 5G wireless data and hotspot, designed to keep you connected, powered by Verizon's 5G network. And no contract holding you back. Plans start at $25 a month, or get the premium Visible Plus Pro Plan and save $10 on your first month when you use promo code HACK. Make the switch at visible.com. Terms apply. See visible.com for details.

• 21:02Speaker 07

  Your credit card company is hoping you don't hear this. They're charging you 21% APR interest, making it hard to pay down your balance. A home equity loan from Rocket Mortgage could cut your interest rate by more than half, so you could wipe out your high-interest credit card debt with the equity you've built in your home without touching your current mortgage rate. See how much you could save at rocketmortgage.com. Rocket Mortgage LLC, licensed in 50 states. NMLS Consumer Access.org, number 3030. Call 8004ROCKET for full program details.

• 21:33Chris Ryan?

  You know, the limited series has been a category in flux, I would say. There's no White Lotus this year to dominate it, I suppose. But Shogun moving out of limited, didn't it move out of limited anthology into outstanding drama the year that it won? And its return is, I suppose, still imminent, but like, I don't know when.

• 21:55Speaker 04

  Yeah, they're still filming, I believe, so.

• 21:58Chris Ryan?

  Next year. Next year. And then Task announcing that it was going to be a continuing series rather than a limited series tweaks this limited series category. And I do wonder if Task would have walked this if it had just been like a one-off, like Mare style. Although, you know, with Julianne Nicholson coming, now everything is.

• 22:19Speaker 04

  How excited are you?

• 22:20Chris Ryan?

  Now everything is an ongoing series. I'm very excited. Is Love Story just gonna walk this category because of its popularity? What do you think is gonna happen here?

• 22:27Speaker 04

  I would have said possibly yes, except he didn't get nominated.

• 22:33Chris Ryan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 22:33Speaker 04

  And that's, I mean, I think sort of deservedly so. But I would love for like Constance Zimmer to win for that show. I did not love that show at all. But I thought there were a couple of great performances.

• 22:46Speaker 04

  I liked Beef, season two, a lot more than a lot of people did, so, you know.

• 22:49Chris Ryan?

  I like Beef season two a lot.

• 22:50Speaker 04

  It got pretty well nominated as well. But yeah, it's a very funky year for that category.

• 22:56Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I can't tell, I can't get a feel for the DTF fandom or the feeling of DTF among the awards block.

• 23:06Speaker 04

  Yeah, but Bateman is always like a real power player in the awards space.

• 23:10Chris Ryan?

  And he's running for Black Rabbit, I think, in some, one of those categories. But I was, I was struck by, you know, when we were talking about it and Andy and I were a little bit dismissive, I admit. But it was just like the passion with which people responded to us being like, no, you've gotta keep giving it a chance. You've gotta keep giving it.

• 23:29Speaker 04

  Yeah, DTF. We got so many emails, why aren't you covering DTF? What's wrong with you?

• 23:32Chris Ryan?

  And I think Steve Conrad has like a really dedicated fanbase, but this went beyond that. I think this really caught on with some people. You mentioned Beef. Feast in Me, I think, could also be a surprise here.

• 23:42Speaker 04

  People liked that.

• 23:42Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I thought it was entertaining.

• 23:45Speaker 04

  Like with a lot of limited series, especially a Netflix limited series, I'm like, there are episodes I really liked.

• 23:50Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 23:50Speaker 04

  You know, like if you put Claire Danes and Matthew Reese in a room and let them cook for an episode, that's great. And then elsewise, you're like. I mean, I'm going through this with Cape Fear right now, but like, why, you're like, why isn't this many episodes?

• 24:01Chris Ryan?

  Why isn't this a movie?

• 24:05Speaker 04

  Riz Ahmed getting nominated for bait, I was really happy to see that.

• 24:08Chris Ryan?

  That was cool.

• 24:08Speaker 04

  Because I really liked that show and that was just like a huge passion project for a performer that I really like.

• 24:13Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I was very happy to see him in the Digger trailer. Seemingly really understanding the assignment, maybe even more than some of the other people in that movie. I was curious where your head was at now that we've kind of gotten out on the other side of the Emmy eligibility calendar, part of the calendar. And now we're entering into this sort of summer. And I don't know why I have this association over the last 10 years, like really for the, almost the entire time I've been doing the pod with Andy, that summer's busy. The Game of Thrones is on, or, you know, there's, there's a couple of shows on during the summer that keep people really occupied. And then, that, that, that there is more of like this 12-month TV calendar.

• 24:56Chris Ryan?

  And now I almost feel like we are reverting back to pre-streaming.

• 25:00Speaker 04

  Yeah, remember when there was no summer TV?

• 25:02Chris Ryan?

  TV is a September to May activity, and, and the summers are essentially a ghost, ghost town.

• 25:09Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 25:10Chris Ryan?

  It kind of feels like that's where we're going again.

• 25:12Speaker 04

  It's, I mean, as the whole thing is swinging back to, as like, didn't Netflix just announce that they're introducing like channels?

• 25:19Chris Ryan?

  Always on channels.

• 25:20Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 25:20Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 25:21Speaker 04

  I mean, we're just trying to reinvent the thing that we fled from in the first place. My understanding is that part of that is, as these various streamers move from subscribers at any cost to fuck, we actually have to make a profit.

• 25:36Speaker 04

  That's changing their sort of throw anything at the wall and see if it sticks, which goes back to your question about limited series.

• 25:41Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 25:41Speaker 04

  Because what I've heard is that nobody wants a limited series anymore, right? Because you can't, you can't build a library off of a limited series. You can't get that like sort of second season pop off a limited series, all this sort of stuff. And so, it's, it's not profitable. It, it was all the rage. And, and when it was in its heyday, like when, you know, you and I at different outlets were covering. True Detective and Fargo and all the rest and and I think you and I

• 26:11Chris Ryan?

  And like The Night Of.

• 26:12Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. And I think you and I as fans of um the British TV models, I mean, I'll just speak for myself. I got I was like, yeah, do what British TV does so well. But it's not turning it's it's almost like British TV is on a government model. Um, they're they're not turning a profit, right? And so they're sort of like, OK, this is too expensive.

• 26:33Chris Ryan?

  Well, it's now and when you look at I cause so when I was looking at what's coming out this summer.

• 26:37Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 26:37Chris Ryan?

  And there's a couple of Apple, specifically Apple, bringing over British made uh series. And there's been some talk in British media about like, is the BBC or the or is our television industry essentially a feeder system for Hollywood now?

• 26:55Speaker 04

  Apple and Netflix.

• 26:55Chris Ryan?

  Um, which I'm sure is profitable for the, you know, because they are not dealing with the same economic model that the American film television industry are. But I don't know. I mean, I think that on one hand, I kind of welcome the break of there not being like an always like 12 month a year constant rush of TV shows. But I now almost think they've overcorrected and there's like a huge dead zone here for somebody to be like, why don't we put this here? Yeah. Um, like in the next couple of weeks, this is what's coming out soon. I mean, from what I could tell.

• 27:30Speaker 04

  That's why we're covering Cape Fear.

• 27:31Chris Ryan?

  Exactly. Yeah, that's why we spent 10 weeks doing Star City, uh, eight weeks. Uh, Lucky Ted Lasso, those are Apple's summer shows, Lucky and Ted Lasso. And then Slow Horses comes out in September, but Slow Horses at this point is like, you've either got season tickets or you don't. Like Netflix has The Hawk, which has been on the stove for a while. It's the Will Ferrell golf comedy.

• 27:53Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 27:53Chris Ryan?

  That uh Rami Youssef had been involved with and now has different uh.

• 27:58Speaker 04

  And can't throw a rock in this town without hitting a billboard for it.

• 28:01Chris Ryan?

  Exactly. Um, and the only other thing that jumped out at me aside from tires, season three was the bombing of Pan Am 103, which I think only appeals to us because of the cast.

• 28:15Speaker 04

  Connors Wendell.

• 28:16Chris Ryan?

  Connors Wendell, Eddie Marzan, Peter Mullen, Merritt Weaver, uh, and Patrick J. Adams. One of the lineup, but it looks like a very, very procedural, like TikTok of this tragedy and.

• 28:30Chris Ryan?

  I don't really know like, like how much ground. There was already a Lockerbie mini-series, I think, that was on Peacock.

• 28:37Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 28:38Chris Ryan?

  With Colin Firth, like, a year or two ago. That's what I saw for them. It's also six episodes, which may be a bit long, uh, for that story, but I don't remember, uh.

• 28:49Speaker 04

  Because it should be a movie.

• 28:51Chris Ryan?

  Yes. Yeah, probably.

• 28:53Speaker 04

  We love television, but so many of these things should be movies.

• 28:56Chris Ryan?

  Uh, Paramount, basically Lioness, season three, which-

• 29:00Speaker 04

  But that's for you.

• 29:00Chris Ryan?

  Obviously, I'm very excited about, but that's it for them.

• 29:03Speaker 04

  Say thank you, Paramount.

• 29:04Chris Ryan?

  Thank you, thank you Daddy David for serving. FX has The Shards.

• 29:09Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 29:10Chris Ryan?

  Ryan Murphy's adaptation of Bret Easton Ellis's novel.

• 29:13Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 29:13Chris Ryan?

  HBO's got Lanterns. Unless I'm, unless I have missed something.

• 29:17Speaker 04

  No, absolutely not.

• 29:18Chris Ryan?

  And those are, The Shards and Lanterns and Adults and a bunch of that stuff is, like, later in August.

• 29:24Speaker 04

  Yeah, exactly. Um, and it's not like they got out of the way for something. Did they get out of the way of The Odyssey? I don't know what to tell you, but like-

• 29:31Chris Ryan?

  The World Cup?

• 29:33Speaker 04

  I've no, I've no, I don't, I've not experienced a summer like this in a long time, in terms of, like, looking at what to cover and being completely baffled.

• 29:40Chris Ryan?

  I would love to know the algorithm of, like, this is why we have to put 10 shows out on Apple in two months, but then one or two shows for June, for late June, July, and, and the beginning of August.

• 29:53Speaker 04

  But I mean, they, you know, they had Maximum Pleasure Guaranteed, Cape Fear, Lucky-

• 29:58Chris Ryan?

  Star City.

• 29:58Speaker 04

  Star City, I'm sorry.

• 29:59Chris Ryan?

  That's okay, no.

• 30:00Speaker 04

  But I did watch the first episode of Star City. I told you I did. Really like it. But I was also like, oh, this is made in Latin for you. So I understood why.

• 30:08Chris Ryan?

  It's Russian and or.

• 30:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, exactly. I was, I was like, oh, it's Lives of Others. Great. Um, I had a, I had a great time. Um, The Shards, I'm fascinated by. I'm fascinated by this YA show swing that's happening, that Apple apparently doesn't want anything to do with, but Amazon is leaning all the way in.

• 30:26Chris Ryan?

  Oh, my God.

• 30:26Speaker 04

  Right? Like, they're like, this is our brand now.

• 30:28Chris Ryan?

  All I hear is people humping. Not me involved, but like-

• 30:32Speaker 04

  Phoebe, Phoebe watching.

• 30:33Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, off the television, yeah.

• 30:35Speaker 04

  Young people humping. But yeah, it's, it's-

• 30:37Chris Ryan?

  He's a hockey player and she's this. And yeah, I'm just like- Okay, like, let's, let's give it a shot.

• 30:42Speaker 04

  I suppose. Um, I, yeah, I don't know what to tell you. Like, it's fascinating, but, but what I will say to all the people who run streamers who are listening to this podcast, what an opportunity you have next summer to absolutely own the space if you want to.

• 30:55Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I mean, it'll be, I, I can't tell the way Sean kind of has a feel for production cycles, release schedule cycles on the big picture and like what's happening in Hollywood and why people are clearing out this weekend, but coming hard for this weekend and whether or not something that is August, the new dumpuary kind of thing. I don't really have a feel for that. I would imagine these companies are pretty sophisticated at this point. They must have data that suggests like, let's steer clear of late July, everybody's gone, but I don't, I don't know.

• 31:27Speaker 04

  Possibly, but also I think it goes back to that whole like, you know, and this is what Sean is talking about a lot recently on The Big Pick where, where it's just like, audiences will no longer just eat crap, right? They, they have had a decade plus of crap of like, we made whatever and we're gonna throw it at the wall and see what sticks. And I, they're getting tired of it and they want things that are actually good and that is slowing down, that is slowing down the entire, I mean, we're, we're in post-peak TV now, right? We're in a contraction era.

• 31:59Chris Ryan?

  I feel like we're in something of a, a swoon.

• 32:03Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 32:03Chris Ryan?

  I think, I think between, I think between like the feeling that something is gonna change with the merger.

• 32:10Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 32:11Chris Ryan?

  I think getting out from under like the extraordinary spending, but also like the weird like arms race that happened between all these upstart streamers. I think everybody is kind of like, there's a kind of show that people are happy to have on, but don't really feel the need to talk about, or at least they don't talk about it to me. Like, people don't come up to me to talk about All Her Fault. People, you know what I mean?

• 32:36Speaker 04

  But like, so that means, does that mean the battle is won, but we have to win the war differently? Do you know?

• 32:43Chris Ryan?

  Well, I, I guess it depends on what's your goal. Like, is the goal to have something like Widows Bay that feels like actual the closest thing we have to a water cooler show in the last couple of months? Is the goal just for everybody to like make money and keep people blithely entertained? Allah, it's 1986 and my stories are on and

• 33:03Speaker 04

  Right.

• 33:03Chris Ryan?

  You know, if that's the case, like, that's why Chloe Sevigny's in Five Star Weekend, you know? Cause she's like, it's a good paycheck. My mom gets to watch it. Like, people enjoy this stuff, like.

• 33:13Speaker 04

  Is Netflix, most of all, is confusing to me because like, once again, we don't have Nielsen ratings really on these, in these places to track things. We have to take their word for it in certain things. And every time I open up the Netflix homepage and look at the top 10 of what everyone's watching, and I'm like, but people aren't talking about this, you know?

• 33:32Chris Ryan?

  Well, because they're also watching it completely on their own schedule and their own.

• 33:35Speaker 04

  On their own schedule, but like, but also second screening, barely watching, it's just noise that's on, you know? And so it's not permeating in any kind of way. And so that doesn't lend itself to the longevity or the loyalty that something like The Pit will or otherwise.

• 33:50Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I mean, even with The Pit, I, you know, anecdotally knew people who would wait till there was five or six episodes stored up to start watching The Pit so that they could binge. You know what I mean? Like, I think that people's television viewing habits have changed so profoundly. And they've gotten so wise, like, you know, fantasy avoiding Andor spoilers for like a year and a half is stunning to me that he was able to be like, man, season two of Andor is incredible. And I'm like, you didn't know what happened? You didn't hear about like that big part?

• 34:20Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 34:21Chris Ryan?

  And that's a guy who's really online. So I think people have gotten pretty good at being like, I'll bookmark this and get to it when I want to get to it.

• 34:30Speaker 04

  Yeah, and then what you have to create, I mean, whatever, I'm just telling them to make old fashioned television as I always do. But like, you have to create an urgent, a sense of urgency. If I don't watch The Pit, then I don't get to talk to everyone about The Pit and have an opinion on The Pit. And like, what I hear so often from our listeners is, and this is, this is very, as much true for House of R as anything else, is like,

• 34:51Speaker 04

  I want to wait until the season's over and hear what everyone thinks, whether or not they thought it was good, before I even start it. Cause is this gonna fall off a cliff? Am I gonna start something and it's gonna fall off a cliff and I feel like I invested all this time and I wasted my time? So I'll just wait till. Everyone watches all of Lanterns before, for example, or Spider Noir, or whatever it is, uh, and, and start it. And then they either don't get to it, or everyone's watching at their own speed.

• 35:16Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 35:17Speaker 04

  You know what I mean? But like, once you're three seasons into the pit, is that still how you approach the pit?

• 35:23Chris Ryan?

  That'll be really fascinating. Cause like, also like, will people be like, okay, I've seen all the pit's tricks?

• 35:29Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 35:29Chris Ryan?

  You know what I mean?

• 35:30Speaker 04

  Possibly. But like, if you make it through the soft, the potential's off more slump, which the pit did not experience, then it just becomes a show everyone, increasingly everyone watches.

• 35:41Chris Ryan?

  Right. I mean, like, that, that's why we-

• 35:44Speaker 04

  Remember television?

• 35:45Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. I mean, I think that like, that's why a show like Succession is like, more of a, a miracle than it is commonplace. You know what I mean? That the show builds and builds and builds, is able to consistently surprise people with things that happen on screen that still feel very much part of the fabric of the story it's telling.

• 36:01Speaker 04

  Right, narratively, yeah, yeah.

• 36:02Chris Ryan?

  But feel like, I gotta go home and watch Succession tonight because I don't want people to be making bore on the floor jokes at the office and I don't know what they're talking about. Bleak summer, but we still have House of the Dragon for a couple more weeks.

• 36:16Speaker 04

  Hot D, baby.

• 36:16Chris Ryan?

  Uh, I did not share my, my feelings with you on, um, on Talk the Thrones. I thought this was like a really good episode. I think not quite as, I didn't have the same feeling for it-

• 36:28Speaker 04

  That was true.

• 36:28Chris Ryan?

  That I did about three. This was a real like, damn ravens really be flying everywhere? Because there was a lot of like, a raven has told me that this is happening. And I'm like, these ravens, like, kind of almost like emails, you know?

• 36:40Speaker 04

  Remember how last week you're like, why are people flying their dragons? And this week you're like, ravens. Yeah, they should fly everywhere.

• 36:46Chris Ryan?

  Um, you know, this was, I guess in some ways, like a James Norton showcase episode.

• 36:51Speaker 04

  That's a hundred percent what it was.

• 36:51Chris Ryan?

  And we also really, we got to see Darren. I liked, up until like, even the frame before he was like, Darren, come here. You're like, that's Darren. I know that's Darren. You can't trick me twice.

• 37:02Speaker 04

  When, when, uh, your guy Brasso from Andor, Jon Roxton walks in, he's like, my prince.

• 37:07Chris Ryan?

  Yes, that was cool.

• 37:08Speaker 04

  Yeah. We wound up talking largely about James Norton's character, Orman Hightower, and Darren Targaryen in there. And they're- I just think it's really exciting in the third season of a show that I've always quite liked to get characters that feel so urgent and exciting and new.

• 37:27Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 37:28Speaker 04

  I am deeply emotionally invested in Darren Targaryen for some reason. Like, I just think, did you, did you watch Blimey Manor at all on Netflix?

• 37:36Chris Ryan?

  No.

• 37:37Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 37:37Chris Ryan?

  Is that, is Darren on Blimey Manor?

• 37:39Speaker 04

  That kid was on Blimey Manor and he played like a-

• 37:40Chris Ryan?

  Wait, the Flanagan thing?

• 37:42Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 37:42Chris Ryan?

  I must have. I mean, I've seen, I think I've seen all the Flanagan shows.

• 37:45Speaker 04

  It was the second, it was the second one after House-

• 37:46Chris Ryan?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I saw that. Yeah.

• 37:48Speaker 04

  So there's two kids in that show and he was one of them and they get like possessed by ghosts-

• 37:52Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, of course.

• 37:53Speaker 04

  At a certain point and they're so scary.

• 37:54Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 37:55Speaker 04

  Yeah, the like turn of the screw Henry James sort of thing. And so he's so, he was so creepy and so good in that. And he's gonna be Link in the Zelda movie, which I have some questions about as well. But like this kid is someone to watch and I just find him really, uh, he's fantastic. And, and that character is a character we don't really have, haven't had on House of the Dragon. Is a much, feels much more like a Thrones character than a House of the Dragon.

• 38:19Chris Ryan?

  I was gonna ask about that because the Ormond Darren stuff felt very well-written, but in a way that didn't feel entirely tethered to like text.

• 38:32Speaker 04

  You know what's interesting is that episode is written by David Hancock, who you called out last season, uh, who was on The Crown.

• 38:38Chris Ryan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 38:38Speaker 04

  And you called out last season is like an elevation in the language and stuff like that. And so I do think it's interesting that they brought him on for this and he'll be on another episode this season. But brought him back to really, really introduce us to this kind of Crown-esque storyline over here in Tupperton.

• 38:56Chris Ryan?

  I thought, you know, for as repulsive as Ormond is articulating like some anti-Targaryen sentiment in a, in a way that sort of would have, would have fit with- High-born Westerosi people where they're just like, I can't believe we're all dying because these incestuous maniacs are burning each, everybody. Although he also has some other hotter, hotter takes.

• 39:19Speaker 04

  Yeah. About. Yeah. He does. No, I mean, I think it's interesting because I don't know what this is about me, something that the House, House of the Dragon has always offered up to us is a complicated conflict where there are good points made on both sides and

• 39:34Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 39:34Speaker 04

  there isn't, you know, you've always been team green, but there isn't supposed to be like a die to the wool villain and a, a clear hero.

• 39:42Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 39:43Speaker 04

  That's the, it's trying to give you something emotionally complex. And then all of a sudden like Orman Hightower shows up like a villain, a real villain shows up and I'm really, and then maybe I'm just like, I'm just really excited.

• 39:55Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 39:56Speaker 04

  And I'm like, oh no, do I need basic like good versus evil in order to feel a certain way about Westeros? I don't know.

• 40:02Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, they did some really nice fake outs in this episode. I thought Orman, him bringing back the, uh,

• 40:09Speaker 04

  Hugh Hammer's brother-in-law.

• 40:11Chris Ryan?

  Hugh Hammer's brother-in-law.

• 40:12Speaker 04

  Also from Andor.

• 40:13Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, that's right. And executing him.

• 40:16Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 40:16Chris Ryan?

  Or having Darren pop his cherry, execution cherry. I also thought that the Daemon Reyna scene was quite good.

• 40:23Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 40:24Chris Ryan?

  Um, and gave that character like a slightly different pitch to throw, which I thought was, was welcome. You know, Daemon is, is the, my, among my favorite reasons for watching the show and that's Smith's performance. But having him just be like, God, like what do I have to do to save this girl's life?

• 40:43Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 40:44Chris Ryan?

  Uh, and was just an excellent scene and an excellent like piece of plot mechanics, I thought.

• 40:49Speaker 04

  I think this season is already so much better than season two and I'm curious to see if we feel like we continue to climb.

• 40:57Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 40:57Speaker 04

  Or, you know, I don't know what the, like even the people who reviewed this season, I think only got the first four episodes.

• 41:03Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 41:03Speaker 04

  So I don't know what the back half is gonna do.

• 41:05Chris Ryan?

  I, I saw on Vulture, the Vulture's recap foregrounded the like, I was told there would be battles sentiment. It was kind of like, I thought after last season and all the throat clearing, like we were gonna get some real like, some action. And I think that will inevitably be the second half of the season.

• 41:24Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 41:26Chris Ryan?

  I don't know how much longer we're gonna have to wait, but. It's weird, because it's like, I do know what's going to happen.

• 41:33Speaker 04

  Yeah, you read the wikis.

• 41:35Chris Ryan?

  I've read the wikis, you know, and so I'm kind of like, it's funny to not have any kind of like mystery to it, but also like a lot of anticipation for for some of these sequences that I think are coming up.

• 41:49Speaker 04

  But what's interesting about wiki reading, or even Fire and Blood reading, is that it doesn't, you know, like, there's so little content in Episodes 3 and 4 that are from the book.

• 41:57Chris Ryan?

  Fire and Blood.

• 41:58Speaker 04

  You know, and so, you know, our whole shtick of like, let's explain what happened in the book versus the show, you have to like, sort of think outside the box in terms of how you cover it, and that's exciting for us, because we don't know. We know what happens, but we don't really know how it happens. And I can't wait to find out.

• 42:14Chris Ryan?

  Do you think that, because, you know, we have House of the Dragon, we're gonna get another season of that. We have young Egg on Night of the Seven Kingdoms, although not really full-blown maniac Targaryen yet. And we might have Aegon's conquest as a movie.

• 42:31Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 42:32Chris Ryan?

  If I had told you, uh, 15 years ago.

• 42:37Speaker 04

  15, okay.

• 42:37Chris Ryan?

  Well, however long ago, when Thrones debuted, 10, 15 years ago, that the Thrones project would be so Targaryen-based, would you have been like, "That makes sense, because that's what a lot of the text is about"?

• 42:51Speaker 04

  Well, no, only because George hadn't, uh, published Fire and Blood at that point, and hadn't made it clear that, like, Targaryen history was something that he was interested in. He had done Dunkin' Egg, but like Dunkin' Egg doesn't feel like a Targaryen story at all. And then he had written, he wrote this like wiki-esque book, um, you know, like a reference book almost, that has some of the Targaryen history in it, but like, leaning into Fire and Blood, that being the only thing he's published since The Dance of Dragons, which is insane, gives them the best material to adapt.

• 43:22Chris Ryan?

  Is there other, like, Stark or Lannister?

• 43:26Speaker 04

  Yeah, well, they were supposed to do the like Corlys conquering the world show. There's a like Nymeria show, like, there's just not a lot of shows that they've floated. But like my understanding immediately after Thrones ended, there were people who wanted to do Dunkin' Egg right away. And HBO said, we want dragons. So if you're gonna have dragons, you gotta have Targaryens. So that's where we are.

• 43:53Chris Ryan?

  That's it. I mean, I would love it if there was like another thing in development that was maybe a little bit less blonde.

• 44:01Speaker 04

  Well, you know, I think what really excites me about Dunkin' Egg working as well, Nine of the Seven Kingdoms working as well, it did and getting Emmy nominated is like the possibility of the powers that be at HBO thinking, okay, where else in Westeros can we go? That feels a little smaller, but more approachable and exciting for people. And there's this, you know, there's this play debuting in Stratford, I want to say, or is it in Oxford? I can't remember. They're doing a stage show called The Mad King, which, so that's Targaryen related. But it's about the tourney at Harrenhal, which is like, kind of what kicked off the whole Roberts Rebellion war. But like, that's kind of, even though it's called The Mad King, not really a Targaryen story. And so that's like, pretty exciting that they're exploring that.

• 44:44Chris Ryan?

  I wonder.

• 44:45Speaker 04

  Do you want to go with Mallory and me to go see it?

• 44:47Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 44:47Speaker 04

  Okay, great.

• 44:48Chris Ryan?

  In England?

• 44:49Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 44:49Chris Ryan?

  I'll do anything in England.

• 44:50Speaker 04

  Great.

• 44:50Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 44:51Speaker 04

  That's what I was told.

• 44:52Chris Ryan?

  I wonder whether or not.

• 44:58Chris Ryan?

  I'm very curious to know, cause like, you know, to the extent that I can tell, I think House of the Dragon is very well, like, lots of people are watching it.

• 45:06Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 45:07Chris Ryan?

  You know, I'm always fascinated as I, as I see people greet the Avengers Doomsday concept art, which may or may not be official or whatever it was, with sort of like, oh, okay, yeah. And reactions to the Russo's quotes and stuff like that being like, you guys aren't done this movie yet? This is coming out like two months.

• 45:25Speaker 04

  Yeah. What does that tell you?

• 45:28Chris Ryan?

  Well, I wonder whether Thrones will ever go the way of like, it's, you know, it had its moment and then it goes. Or is this like, how durable is this storytelling if George doesn't finish the books and/or suggests something that happens after Jon Snow goes north?

• 45:43Speaker 04

  Unlike Mar- like, what's your, what's your count? So Marvel, you're like, it had its moment and now it's sort of running on fumes to a certain degree.

• 45:50Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I mean.

• 45:51Speaker 04

  Though I am very excited for the Paul Bettany vision show, personally. And also Wonder Man got a, got a great Emmy nomination.

• 45:57Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 45:58Speaker 04

  He's amazing in that show. That was fantastic. But I won't disagree that Marvel's running on fumes right now, but like. What's the world that, you know, Star Wars endured in its own way? Like, so is it just we need a galaxy, a galaxy far, far away to play with? A Westeros, a galaxy far, far away?

• 46:16Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I think there's always going to be a fascination. I mean, I think that you, we probably look back on this time period and be like, Dune was also quite dominant for eight years or however long it's gonna be. Actually, more like five or six years, right?

• 46:29Speaker 04

  Yeah, pretty fast clip.

• 46:31Chris Ryan?

  You know, there are different pieces of IP that reign supreme at any given moment. I think one thing that's marked a lot of these things is that they have to go away for a while for people to miss them, and that's something that I don't think that the people who own the rights to these things are willing to do.

• 46:47Speaker 04

  Right, anymore. They're like, you used to. But like, well, I think, okay, so here's, I think, the problem with Marvel versus, a problem with Marvel versus Westeros is that Marvel's intention is for everything to click together in place. And so that means, despite them saying, oh, Black Panther is so different, or this is so, you know, or Doctor Strange is a horror or something like that, there's, you know, homogenous nature to Marvel that, that the Westeros space shows don't have to have. And so the best example of that is Night of the Seven Kingdoms, which does feel extremely tonally different, if not formally, not formally different than, than Thrones did.

• 47:29Speaker 04

  Hot D is trying to be more Thrones-like.

• 47:33Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 47:33Speaker 04

  But if we're thinking of an Aegon Conquest movie and a Mad King play and a comedy like Night of the Seven Kingdoms, it just means that Westeros is a place where you can tell all kinds of stories, especially if you're not trying to make them click together.

• 47:47Chris Ryan?

  Yes. I mean, there's also like something fascinating about the fact that for a lot of these stories or a lot of these franchises, they do have like a demarcated like this, and this is when the story ends. Like, not only is Thrones not finished, but we have an idea, we know, like, they won.

• 48:06Speaker 04

  One of my favorite reactions to the episode two of the season of Hot D when Rhaenyra, you know, takes the King's Landing, they're like, all this for Bran to wind up on the throne?

• 48:18Speaker 04

  All of this fuss and then Bran's gonna sit on the throne? So, but it, but I don't, you know, obviously Hot D is not as... Biggest Thrones was at its peak. Night of the Seven Kingdoms is much beloved, but also a much smaller show. So definitely the ending of Thrones. And House of Dragon, season one, not, not quite scratching that itch for people. Has shrunk the, it's not like the audience has grown. It, it has contracted.

• 48:41Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 48:42Speaker 04

  But I, but it's still like a very healthy audience.

• 48:44Chris Ryan?

  Oh, yeah. And I think that like one thing I sometimes don't really understand until I like leave Los Angeles is how many people out there are like, oh, I've read those books like 10 times.

• 48:55Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 48:55Chris Ryan?

  Like, you know, I, I know you and Mallory have, but I don't know sometimes like when I'm in a bar and somebody's like, well, I've, I've read, I've read it. I might just reread it to get ready for this or whatever. You know what I mean? Like it's, it is, it is a fandom that is pretty profound.

• 49:11Speaker 04

  It's true, but like that was also true of Wheel of Time. And then that just didn't stick.

• 49:14Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 49:15Speaker 04

  You know what I mean?

• 49:15Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 49:16Speaker 04

  But, but I think Dune is a, is a good comp for that in terms of like, people will just read Dune over and over and over and over and over again.

• 49:23Chris Ryan?

  I mean, Dune is almost the inversion of Marvel because they were like, we have a filmmaker who's very special.

• 49:29Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 49:29Chris Ryan?

  And because of that filmmaker, this cast will do it. And we are going to make this happen in a very condensed period of time.

• 49:36Speaker 04

  Right. But also Denny is like, I'm, is, is not saying I'm going to adapt every Dune book.

• 49:40Chris Ryan?

  No.

• 49:40Speaker 04

  He's like, I'm doing the first two.

• 49:42Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 49:42Speaker 04

  And then we're done.

• 49:43Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 49:43Speaker 04

  That's what we're doing. We're doing a trilogy.

• 49:45Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 49:45Speaker 04

  And, and Will Warner Brothers say, okay, well, they did, right?

• 49:48Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 49:48Speaker 04

  We got the Bene Gesserit show, which did not work, you know? So.

• 49:53Chris Ryan?

  Are you excited for Dune 3?

• 49:54Speaker 04

  Hugely excited. And I mean, I love, I love The Odyssey. We're going to cover it extensively on House of R. You're going to cover it on the big pick, but like The Odyssey, I consider The Odyssey genre IP.

• 50:05Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 50:06Speaker 04

  So I think the, I think Project Hail Mary, The Odyssey and Dune 3 being like the one, two, three of this, 10 pulls of this year is good news for quality, sort of.

• 50:18Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 50:18Speaker 04

  Genre adaptation.

• 50:20Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, but they are increasingly seem to be big screen. You know?

• 50:24Speaker 04

  I, I know.

• 50:25Chris Ryan?

  It's just been a minute since, I mean, like even. I was trying to think of like any, I don't even think there is a Star Wars TV show, live action TV show. Is Ahsoka doing another season?

• 50:34Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 50:35Chris Ryan?

  Okay. Is that this year or next year?

• 50:37Speaker 04

  Next year. It's definitely next year. Yeah.

• 50:39Chris Ryan?

  Is there another one in like in the?

• 50:41Speaker 04

  Well, yeah, it's like, there's no Star Trek project in the works. There's no Doctor Who. Like, this is, I think, the first time in, I don't know, 50 years that there isn't either a Doctor Who or a Star Trek project in the works.

• 50:52Chris Ryan?

  Interesting.

• 50:52Speaker 04

  Yeah. It's a big weird time.

• 50:53Chris Ryan?

  I hope nothing like really bad happened the last time that that occurred.

• 50:57Speaker 04

  Right.

• 50:59Chris Ryan?

  Um, Joy, thank you so much for joining me.

• 51:00Speaker 04

  Oh, my God, what a thrill.

• 51:01Chris Ryan?

  Uh, thanks to Kaya and Kai and Sarah. Uh, we'll be back on Thursday with Andy covering a bunch of stuff that we missed. Uh, everybody have a wonderful World Cup semifinals. Any predictions?

• 51:11Speaker 04

  I'm gonna go Argentina, Spain. That's what I think.

• 51:13Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 51:13Speaker 04

  But you're the expert. That's what everyone's saying.

• 51:15Chris Ryan?

  These are the best four teams in the world, and I think that this is like really, really tight on both sides.

• 51:19Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 51:19Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 51:20Speaker 04

  But it was interesting, the Argentina-Swiss game, like, they had some momentum.

• 51:24Chris Ryan?

  They did.

• 51:24Speaker 04

  They were sweating, you know?

• 51:26Chris Ryan?

  They did. The big Gianni came in and was just like, that's, we gotta get these guys out of here. I can't have the Swiss in the semifinals. Uh, we'll talk to you guys on Thursday.

• 51:42Speaker 07

  Check home worries off your list and save up to $5,000 on repairs with Virginia Foundation Solutions. Wet basement? Foundation cracks? Uneven concrete? Leave those to us. Small problems can lead to bigger repairs when left unchecked. Virginia Foundation Solutions provides waterproofing, foundation repair, and concrete leveling to help keep your home dry, stable, and secure. You've got enough on your list. Let us handle the repairs. Schedule your free inspection with Virginia Foundation Solutions today.

• 52:14Speaker 06

  With Truvia Sweeteners, it's simple to make sweetness part of your routine. From sweetening your creamy morning matcha to freshly baked blueberry scones, Truvia Sweeteners make it easy to enjoy the flavors you love with less sugar per serving. From everyday drinks to homemade favorites, they're made to fit right in. Because with Truvia, every moment tastes better. Find Truvia at your favorite local grocery retailer and bring better sweetness home.