The Best Shows of the Year (So Far)

Chris and Andy talk about the trailers for Tony Gilroy’s ‘Behemoth!’ (10:51) and Ryan Murphy’s adaptation of Bret Easton Ellis’s novel ‘The Shards’ (16:26). Then they reveal their favorite shows of the year so far, including everything from ‘Industry’ and ‘The Pitt’ to ‘A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms’ and ‘Beef,' and they reflect on the year in television up until this point (20:09). Later, The Watch: After Dark (0:00). Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of The Watch and so much more! Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Studio Production: Sarah Reddy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:26Speaker 01

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• 1:35Speaker 02

  I need support staff to clear the room.

• 1:38Chris Ryan?

  Stand up and walk, now! Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at TheRinger.com. And joining me in the studio, tearfully singing Talk Tonight, instead of Wonderwall, it's Andy Greenwald!

• 1:56Andy Greenwald?

  It's terrible.

• 1:56Chris Ryan?

  It's not coming home.

• 1:58Andy Greenwald?

  It turns out it is not coming home. Thank you for having me on the Bill Simmons Podcast, Chris. I appreciate it.

• 2:03Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:04Andy Greenwald?

  It's nice to be here.

• 2:05Chris Ryan?

  I guess I should say, I got to host the Bill Simmons Podcast yesterday. I had Ian Wright and Anthony DiBundo and Sean Fantasy on. We talked about the England Argentina match. We talked about the Odyssey. DiBundo and Ian Wright had a lot of thoughts on the Odyssey.

• 2:20Andy Greenwald?

  Did they?

• 2:21Chris Ryan?

  And Sean Fantasy thought Thomas Tuchel was a coward.

• 2:24Andy Greenwald?

  It's a great zag.

• 2:24Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:25Andy Greenwald?

  I, first of all, congratulations.

• 2:27Chris Ryan?

  Thanks, man.

• 2:27Andy Greenwald?

  It's no small achievement. It's a great podcast.

• 2:29Chris Ryan?

  It is.

• 2:31Andy Greenwald?

  Would you like a constructive note?

• 2:33Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 2:33Andy Greenwald?

  I just think-

• 2:34Chris Ryan?

  Did you listen?

• 2:36Andy Greenwald?

  I started it.

• 2:37Chris Ryan?

  Oh, yeah?

• 2:37Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah. No, it's good. It's, it's, listen, it's good. It's good. My note, though, is the next time that he gives you the keys to his choice ride, I think you gotta be a little bit more like the parking garage attendants in Ferris Bueller Stay Off.

• 2:53Chris Ryan?

  So you think I played it too safe?

• 2:55Andy Greenwald?

  I think you gotta open it up. You know what I mean?

• 2:57Chris Ryan?

  Do you, when you say that-

• 2:58Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 2:58Chris Ryan?

  Do you mean I needed to open it up, like, me personally? And just start going like, "Bing bong, it's Wayne Jenkins"? Or do you think, like, is it morning zoo it up? Or do you think the guests were too conservative?

• 3:10Andy Greenwald?

  No, no, no. I just think, first of all, great question, great phrasing.

• 3:14Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:15Andy Greenwald?

  You would have done numbers if you had done CR's side talk.

• 3:20Andy Greenwald?

  I don't know. I just feel like I want, you did bring some of yourself to it, clearly, because you brought soccer and you brought Sean Fantasy.

• 3:28Chris Ryan?

  And the Odyssey. Yeah, I like that.

• 3:29Andy Greenwald?

  You like that stuff.

• 3:30Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:31Andy Greenwald?

  I'm just trying to think of, like, maybe some more personal, like, a deep dive into Len Diten's, like, later works.

• 3:36Chris Ryan?

  So you wanted to be included, is what you're saying?

• 3:38Andy Greenwald?

  No, no, you wouldn't talk to me.

• 3:39Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:40Andy Greenwald?

  You would talk to, like, Len Diten's son, Ben Diten, or something. You know what I mean?

• 3:44Chris Ryan?

  Here's the thing you gotta learn about being political in this world is-

• 3:47Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, yes, yeah.

• 3:49Chris Ryan?

  You and me, we're the, we're the primary. But when you get to Bill, it's the general, and you gotta pivot to the center of it.

• 3:55Andy Greenwald?

  Right, because I'm running to your left. That's totally right. When you get to the general-

• 4:01Chris Ryan?

  That's when I turn into Haley Stevens.

• 4:05Andy Greenwald?

  Totally true.

• 4:06Chris Ryan?

  My heads will get that one.

• 4:07Andy Greenwald?

  It's totally right.

• 4:08Chris Ryan?

  My right heads.

• 4:09Andy Greenwald?

  Okay, well, I thought you did a great job.

• 4:10Chris Ryan?

  Thanks, no, thank you.

• 4:11Andy Greenwald?

  That is exciting, and we have a lot to talk about.

• 4:13Chris Ryan?

  Did you actually listen? I can't tell.

• 4:15Andy Greenwald?

  I started it, but then I was sitting in my car, and I was gonna like crush more of it on like 4X. And then you saw me sitting in my car in the parking lot.

• 4:21Chris Ryan?

  And I was like, what's up, man?

• 4:22Andy Greenwald?

  Well, no, you did the thing you usually do, which is check if I'm weeping, which was cool. I wasn't. Can you imagine if every day you're like, it's gonna be that kind of pod?

• 4:32Chris Ryan?

  You're fucking crying again? Andy, what a day on the podcast today.

• 4:35Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 4:35Chris Ryan?

  Because we'll do some watch after dark about our weekend in Philly and our experience with the World Cup as it comes to a conclusion.

• 4:43Andy Greenwald?

  That's all coming at the end? Oh, man, I'm chomping at the bit.

• 4:45Chris Ryan?

  If you want to do it now, then-

• 4:46Andy Greenwald?

  No, no, but-

• 4:46Chris Ryan?

  After dark can be in the morning.

• 4:48Andy Greenwald?

  Tell the people, I think that's gonna happen for most of America.

• 4:51Chris Ryan?

  For now, you're still the co-host here, so you can, you can make the decisions too.

• 4:54Andy Greenwald?

  Isn't after dark gonna be the norm for most of America once daylight savings time becomes permanent? Did you read about this?

• 5:00Chris Ryan?

  I did read about this. I mean, I've been reading the news this whole, this whole month.

• 5:03Andy Greenwald?

  No wonder you're so cheerful. Okay, finish, finish the rundown.

• 5:06Chris Ryan?

  I'm in a good mood.

• 5:07Andy Greenwald?

  I know.

• 5:08Chris Ryan?

  And I'll tell you why.

• 5:09Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 5:09Chris Ryan?

  Because today, we're gonna do the best TV of the year so far.

• 5:12Andy Greenwald?

  Okay.

• 5:13Chris Ryan?

  We've reached this sort of like, you know, obviously, it's quite late in July. It's an odd time to be doing the best TV of the first half of the year, because it's more than half of the year is over. But now that we got all the Emmy shows kind of out of our system and under the wire to be considered for-

• 5:30Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 5:30Chris Ryan?

  -awards consideration, and we have hit a little bit of a dead zone where, you know, you've got How's the Dragon Still Running, people may be catching up on things like The Agency, Cape Fear wrapping up, and then kinda not a lot other than like Ted Lasso, The Will Ferrell Show, The Hawk. You know, I talked about this with Joanna, but like, they're, they're taking, taking July and August off out here in Hollyweird, and- I wanted to just kind of put a marker on like, okay, what do we think? What's the best of what we've gotten so far and whether we think it's a good year? There may be some surprise entries in there of shows that we have not had a chance to really discuss that deeply.

• 6:09Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, right. You want to fold that into this because there's a show in particular I want to talk about, but it's on my list.

• 6:13Chris Ryan?

  We could do it. I know that you have a comprehensive notes app that covers your entire life. And if you would like to structure this show on the fly, we can.

• 6:22Andy Greenwald?

  Sure. Bananas, ground turkey, olive oil.

• 6:26Chris Ryan?

  Clean glasses.

• 6:27Andy Greenwald?

  And then some notes about the rise of Alamo on Euphoria season three.

• 6:32Chris Ryan?

  But yeah, we can do, we could do World Cup in Philly right now.

• 6:36Andy Greenwald?

  No, let's do, okay, so let's do World Cup at the end because we do have a lot to talk about. Obviously, I am wearing a shirt to support La Furia Roja España, which has been my team from the beginning.

• 6:48Chris Ryan?

  Fucking elite. If you immediately changed, your entire vibe was like, it was like the tiki taka.

• 6:56Andy Greenwald?

  It always has been. I don't use large plates at home, ever. Only pequeño.

• 7:03Chris Ryan?

  Do you like a tin fish?

• 7:04Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, yeah, sure. Who, who doesn't?

• 7:08Chris Ryan?

  I'm not allowed to have tin fish in my house, really.

• 7:10Andy Greenwald?

  What?

• 7:11Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, my wife doesn't like the smell.

• 7:13Andy Greenwald?

  So you're, so you go outside like an alley cat?

• 7:15Chris Ryan?

  No, I just don't eat fish at all. I mean, like, I, I don't really dabble. Yeah.

• 7:20Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, come through. We'll crack a couple tins. Like when I'm in England and they're like, tinnies on the train? I thought they meant like some beautiful Portuguese squid, you know?

• 7:31Chris Ryan?

  Are you popular on trains in England?

• 7:33Andy Greenwald?

  So popular. Well, breakfast is more hard boiled egg season. You know what I mean? Okay, we'll do that at the end, but I did want to say that we had a lovely, brief encounter, much like the film.

• 7:44Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 7:44Andy Greenwald?

  In Philadelphia this weekend where we watched England's last.

• 7:47Chris Ryan?

  Victory. Yeah.

• 7:48Andy Greenwald?

  And it was, it's great to see you.

• 7:50Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, England, Norway, we, we watched a Bad Brother and it was awesome. What a vibe.

• 7:56Andy Greenwald?

  Can I just, I feel like this is, this is important for the listeners to understand that like, so I, I flew across the country. I went straight from the airport to Bad Brother and to walk into this wonderful public house crowded. And I spotted you at the end of the bar and you're chatting with Nick, who's awesome as the owner. And now I know what it's like to be friends with Norm and walk into Cheers.

• 8:21Chris Ryan?

  Well, Norm was a little bit antisocial.

• 8:24Andy Greenwald?

  Okay, so you are well-butrid Norm.

• 8:27Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 8:28Andy Greenwald?

  Like, super popular, chatty.

• 8:29Chris Ryan?

  Norm was like, "I don't want to talk to anybody. I just want giant mugs of beer before, so I can avoid going home to my wife."

• 8:34Andy Greenwald?

  You're resisting what I'm trying to say here.

• 8:36Chris Ryan?

  I understand what you're trying to say.

• 8:37Andy Greenwald?

  Which is that you are the king of these fair amount streets, and it was very cool to be basking in your aura, frankly. Just for a short time.

• 8:45Chris Ryan?

  It was a great place to watch the game, and I appreciate you being there. And then I went out and saw my buddies from this band called The Shyness Clinic, who were very active in the late 90s in Boston when I was living there. And I lived with some of them in Mission Hill in Boston in the late 90s. They got their band back together for the first time in like, more than 25 years. And it was incredible to see them. They played at the Yuki Hall, they played New York and Boston as well. And it was awesome to see them.

• 9:15Andy Greenwald?

  Those are great guys. Do you think we should bring back our late 90s zine that we talked about making?

• 9:21Chris Ryan?

  I think that this is the zine.

• 9:22Andy Greenwald?

  This is literally it.

• 9:23Chris Ryan?

  It's literally the zine.

• 9:24Andy Greenwald?

  So you went and you saw a great show, great friends. I brought my older daughter to visit my aging parents. And the one thing that I was eager to tell you was, I was sort of hopeful that there might be some new opportunities for cross-cultural dialogue. Because my daughter had been in New York with her other grandparents, who took her to see Ragtime, the musical that is back on Broadway.

• 9:49Chris Ryan?

  It's Dr. O season.

• 9:51Andy Greenwald?

  So I, you know, my father has strong opinions about musicals and Dr. O. So I mentioned that she had seen the musical. And my father went on a, I would say, quite repetitive rant about how only in this recent iteration of the show at Lincoln Center has The New York Times given it its due. The New York Times had it out for that show, a fine show. While he's kind of just sort of really dug in on that point, I noticed on the bookshelf, like, he does have, obviously, many books, but like-

• 10:24Chris Ryan?

  Every issue of the New York Times ever.

• 10:26Andy Greenwald?

  Cat-crossed index for Frank Rich's Wrong Opinions. I went to the bookshelf and I pulled down what turned out to be a first edition of Yale Doctorow's 1975 novel Ragtime.

• 10:37Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 10:37Andy Greenwald?

  That sponsored, that sponsored, inspired this musical. And I was like, to my daughter, I was like, "Look, you know, look, triangles of literature, whatever." And the first thing that I realized was the problem. She took the book, she was interested.

• 10:48Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 10:48Andy Greenwald?

  She turned to the back cover, and 70s hardcovers, as you remember, the author photo often is the entire back. So it's fucking Ed Doctorow, Jim Henson-ass corduroy and beard, full bald bate, just looking like, "Yeah, I wrote this shit. I'll do it again next year." So immediately, she was like, "I don't know about this."

• 11:08Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 11:09Andy Greenwald?

  She flipped through it, and this is, by the way, on the way over, she was like, "Maybe I'll read the book, it's so interesting, American history." I was like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah."

• 11:16Chris Ryan?

  It's all happening.

• 11:17Andy Greenwald?

  We're vibing.

• 11:17Chris Ryan?

  Let's fucking watch Ken Burns and Civil War together.

• 11:19Andy Greenwald?

  Maybe one day you'll have a podcast. And so she, she sort of looked through and then like, put it aside. And I was like, huh, I guess she didn't want to really delve into the classics, so I opened it up.

• 11:31Andy Greenwald?

  You, you forget, you know, we're from a different era, different generation. And beginning of chapter two, and I'm, I'm slightly misquoting here, but I believe the beginning of chapter two is, "Mother and father were displeased that Houdini's visit had interrupted their coitus."

• 11:52Andy Greenwald?

  Like, that's really what literature was?

• 11:55Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I mean, like, you get to, like, three-page descriptions of a phallus by John Updike-

• 12:02Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, yeah.

• 12:03Chris Ryan?

  You find out some self, things about yourself as a reader.

• 12:05Andy Greenwald?

  What's exciting with Updike is you're not sure whose phallus it is until, like, the third paragraph.

• 12:09Chris Ryan?

  It's a lot of guys playing basketball.

• 12:11Andy Greenwald?

  Exactly. The steam room was quite large back then, so is he talking about others? Is it a mirror situation? So, you know, culture moves on. It's all right.

• 12:21Chris Ryan?

  I have a couple of things about culture to ask you about before we get to our list. Number one, one of the central creatives at the foundation of this podcast, someone whose work we return to over and over again- Tony Gilroy.

• 12:35Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 12:36Chris Ryan?

  Words, they function as like the intro to this podcast. When you hear Stand Up and Walk, that's obviously from The Bourne Legacy, Edward Norton in the crisis suite. He's got a new movie coming out. It's his first theatrical feature since Clayton, right?

• 12:56Andy Greenwald?

  The Bourne Legacy.

• 12:57Chris Ryan?

  Since The Bourne Legacy, right?

• 12:58Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 12:58Chris Ryan?

  Excuse me.

• 12:59Andy Greenwald?

  Are we going to have to replace the opening of this podcast with Pedro Pascal being like, I've always loved the cello.

• 13:06Andy Greenwald?

  Do you think that would give the same kind of?

• 13:08Chris Ryan?

  I think we would have even more, deeper completion rates.

• 13:13Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, look, this is, this is, this is The Ringer's number one Yael Doctorow podcast already.

• 13:18Chris Ryan?

  I'm sure Brian Curtis is like, well.

• 13:20Andy Greenwald?

  That's actually true. He's coming for our crown.

• 13:22Chris Ryan?

  But I was wondering if you'd saw the Behemoth trailer. This is his film about a classical musician who plays in film, in orchestras, but also primarily in film scores. And that cellist is played by Pedro Pascal, as Andy mentioned. Also starring the film Eva Victor, Will Arnett and Olivia Wilde, who we just saw in The Invite. What did you make of, of the teaser? Cause it is very much teaser. I think there's like three lines of dialogue in it.

• 13:51Andy Greenwald?

  I think that it is a, look, you already said it. We are deeply in the tank for Uncle Tony. We're very excited about this movie. We've had the chance to talk to him about it. He is very excited and passionate about this project. And very bullish on how it was turning out when we, when we heard from him. And I love that Searchlight was like, yes, we see your vision here. We understand that this is not canonically part of the Reed Richards Expanded Universe, and yet we are still going to release it in the theaters. And they're steering into, it appears that in the marketing that they're steering into what the movie is,

• 14:32Andy Greenwald?

  which is a very, very kind of heady, emotional, psychological, not exactly thriller, but drama that makes music and also like a deep, deep love of movies and how movies used to get made, which is very autobiographical for Ternix. His father Frank is a famous writer for the stage and screen.

• 14:51Andy Greenwald?

  I thought, I think the marketing looks up to the task, which was exciting to see.

• 14:55Chris Ryan?

  It'll probably, imagine Fox Searchlight, it's probably gonna be a fall, late fall, like, awards season release.

• 15:02Andy Greenwald?

  It's scheduled for December, which gives it runway to be in a festival.

• 15:06Chris Ryan?

  Good.

• 15:06Andy Greenwald?

  I would imagine. I defer to Bill Simmons podcast guest Sean Fennessy for that. Bit of info, did he drop any of that yesterday?

• 15:15Chris Ryan?

  I feel like I insulted you a little bit.

• 15:17Andy Greenwald?

  Not at all. You would not want me talking about The Odyssey on a podcast, listening to it by millions, because I haven't seen it and don't really have a take.

• 15:26Chris Ryan?

  Did you read it?

• 15:27Andy Greenwald?

  In school.

• 15:28Chris Ryan?

  Did you guys read The Odyssey in school?

• 15:30Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, well, we were both at Quaker schools, but some were a little more rigorous, I guess.

• 15:34Chris Ryan?

  Well, I was a three-sport athlete, so, you know, did not a lot of time for Cyclops.

• 15:39Andy Greenwald?

  Did you pay for nerds?

• 15:40Chris Ryan?

  The only Cyclops I acknowledged was that umpire behind me, am I right?

• 15:45Andy Greenwald?

  It's good. Did you pay for some nerd to do the papers for you?

• 15:49Chris Ryan?

  No, I was probably the nerd doing the papers. But did you actually read The Odyssey?

• 15:53Andy Greenwald?

  I believe I read The Odyssey in college, in college, but for fun.

• 15:58Chris Ryan?

  No way.

• 15:58Andy Greenwald?

  No.

• 15:58Chris Ryan?

  No!

• 16:00Andy Greenwald?

  Come on, I'm just trying to steer you a bit.

• 16:01Chris Ryan?

  There was that moment there where I was reading, like, the letters of Robert Lowell and Elizabeth Bishop, and I was like, this is gonna be such a lucrative life for myself.

• 16:09Andy Greenwald?

  I can really, if you squint, you can see the path towards profitability.

• 16:12Chris Ryan?

  30 years later, I'm just like, yeah, John Travolta was really bad in domestic disturbance.

• 16:17Andy Greenwald?

  Bing bong.

• 16:19Andy Greenwald?

  Good stuff.

• 16:20Chris Ryan?

  There was another trailer that I wanted to ask you about, but I don't know if you've actually seen it.

• 16:25Andy Greenwald?

  Last behemoth take.

• 16:26Chris Ryan?

  Oh, sure.

• 16:26Andy Greenwald?

  I did have another question. So, do you feel like this, is this a heat check moment for Will Arnett, dramatic actor? Do you, when you see?

• 16:35Chris Ryan?

  Isn't, is this thing on, is the heat check, right?

• 16:38Andy Greenwald?

  Well.

• 16:38Chris Ryan?

  We've now, we've now entered the hot zone.

• 16:41Andy Greenwald?

  Do you think?

• 16:41Chris Ryan?

  I don't even know what that term would be. It's like, when you let a heat check shooter just keep shooting?

• 16:46Andy Greenwald?

  Right. So, my point was that, like, he is...

• 16:50Chris Ryan?

  I guess that's like Cam Thomas, you know, who's now out of the league. It's like, you just keep chucking it up there, man. You got it.

• 16:57Andy Greenwald?

  Unlike Will, unlike Will Arnett, Cam Thomas does not have a podcast to fall back on.

• 17:01Chris Ryan?

  He easily could, though.

• 17:03Andy Greenwald?

  Do you think?

• 17:03Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 17:03Andy Greenwald?

  Do you think the NBA needs more ex-player podcasts?

• 17:06Chris Ryan?

  Just as much as they do Will Arnett podcasts, yeah.

• 17:08Andy Greenwald?

  That's the take you should have used on Bill. I just wondered if like, I thought it was interesting that, and I think Olivia Wilde, you and I both think was incredible in the invite.

• 17:16Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 17:17Andy Greenwald?

  So I'm excited to see her acting in this movie. And I think it's interesting, he cast people. You know, it is a very like 2025. I don't, Tony doesn't work like this, but in terms of studios like greenlighting people, I think coming into like being in 2025, being like, oh, Will Arnett's probably going to get an Oscar nomination for this thing on. Pedro Pascal is going to be in the number one movie of the year, Fantastic Four.

• 17:40Chris Ryan?

  Well, they both replaced other actors on this movie.

• 17:42Andy Greenwald?

  That's true.

• 17:43Chris Ryan?

  So Pedro Pascal replaced Oscar Isaac, who was initially attached, and then Will Arnett came in for David Harbour.

• 17:48Andy Greenwald?

  Right, so Moon Knight and Red Guardian were originally going to be in it.

• 17:51Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 17:52Andy Greenwald?

  And we ended up with Mr. Fantastic and Job.

• 17:54Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 17:55Andy Greenwald?

  Okay, win.

• 17:56Chris Ryan?

  I have a question for you that I did not prepare you for, so I don't know if you have an answer.

• 18:01Andy Greenwald?

  I'll take some coffee.

• 18:02Chris Ryan?

  Have one sip.

• 18:02Andy Greenwald?

  Mm, mm.

• 18:05Chris Ryan?

  Will, will we, I'll use, I'll use we.

• 18:08Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 18:09Chris Ryan?

  Will we be breaking our Ryan Murphy fast?

• 18:14Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, our embargo.

• 18:15Chris Ryan?

  To check out The Shards, his adaptation of Bret Easton Ellis's.

• 18:19Andy Greenwald?

  I'm so glad you asked this question. Yes. Yes, we will. Yes, we will.

• 18:24Chris Ryan?

  Did you watch the trailer?

• 18:25Andy Greenwald?

  I didn't, actually.

• 18:26Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 18:26Andy Greenwald?

  How was it?

• 18:27Chris Ryan?

  It did not scream Bret Easton Ellis to me.

• 18:29Andy Greenwald?

  Did it scream Ryan Murphy?

• 18:30Chris Ryan?

  More than that, more than Bret Easton Ellis. I think that there are like, the Bret Easton Ellis of it came through in the voiceover narration about what these characters like to do, which is hump and do coke.

• 18:40Andy Greenwald?

  Get after it?

• 18:40Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. But I haven't read The Shards, is it any good?

• 18:43Andy Greenwald?

  I didn't finish The Shards.

• 18:45Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 18:46Andy Greenwald?

  I was, I went back to, you know, poet, epic poetry.

• 18:52Andy Greenwald?

  Speaking, that actually is not the, if you're putting your arms around my collegiate experience, reading experience, it really did toggle between Bret Easton Ellis.

• 19:01Chris Ryan?

  And Homer.

• 19:04Andy Greenwald?

  I am a big fan of Bret Easton Ellis's novels and sometimes apologist of his novels. And I usually have had the, the, the get up and go to finish them, even the weaker ones, I couldn't do it with The Shards.

• 19:19Chris Ryan?

  What would you say is the best?

• 19:24Andy Greenwald?

  Best.

• 19:25Chris Ryan?

  What's your favorite?

• 19:26Andy Greenwald?

  Rules of Attraction. I love Rules of Attraction. And the movie's pretty good, too. But, um.

• 19:33Chris Ryan?

  What's, did you do one where it's like? No, it's, I keep, I sometimes get like mid to late McInerney and mid to like.

• 19:40Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 19:41Chris Ryan?

  Confused, but is, which one set, had one set in Japan?

• 19:45Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, that's, that, you mean, you're talking about McInerney's second novel, Ransom?

• 19:49Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 19:49Andy Greenwald?

  Which, in which an incredibly handsome guy named like Mac Jackinerney, like goes to Japan to like study the purity of karate at a dojo and like sleep with women? We used to be a proper country, okay? Are we allowed to say that? That book is so insane and it is 100% just been memory hold.

• 20:09Chris Ryan?

  Do you think if we pitched that to Paramount Plus right now, we would get greenlit?

• 20:13Andy Greenwald?

  Paramount's the studio that's interested. I'll tell you that much.

• 20:18Andy Greenwald?

  So, all this is to say, the, my, really, I think maybe the only Ryan Murphy project that I've really enjoyed was the OJ, American Crime Story, OJ season and we.

• 20:31Chris Ryan?

  I liked the, I liked, what I, I think I, I think I finished, I liked the Versace one, too.

• 20:36Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, yeah, that was, okay, so, but particularly, I thought the OJ one and to, and to a different degree, the, the Versace one. I just thought that was a perfect combination of subject matter and artist or story and storyteller because the OJ story is tawdry and I think Ryan Murphy is a poet laureate of particular, particular flavor of like California tawdry. So I think the marriage of him with Bredy Sineless is a, potentially a really good one. Like in the sense that they, I think, would operate well together.

• 21:07Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 21:08Andy Greenwald?

  So I am interested.

• 21:09Chris Ryan?

  Okay, well, that'll be something new and fresh for us and we, we could use a refresh.

• 21:13Andy Greenwald?

  It also has your preferred Homer, Homer gear.

• 21:16Chris Ryan?

  It's got Homer gear and Kaia Gerber, am I right?

• 21:18Andy Greenwald?

  Two of your favorites who just did it on their own. You know what I mean? Just like.

• 21:23Chris Ryan?

  Look, as a nepo, I can't really blame them.

• 21:25Andy Greenwald?

  It's true.

• 21:26Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 21:27Andy Greenwald?

  Do you guys have a meeting? That's where you go to?

• 21:30Chris Ryan?

  Hey, Kaia, what's up?

• 21:33Chris Ryan?

  Cool, what are you reading?

• 21:34Andy Greenwald?

  She's got a copy of your dad's like 1981 video guide open.

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• 24:36Chris Ryan?

  Okay, so do you want to call this the best shows of the year, or do you want to call it our favorite shows of the year? Here's the thing that I've been struggling with, Andy.

• 24:43Andy Greenwald?

  Okay.

• 24:43Chris Ryan?

  The unknowability of the totality of television, you know? And also, maybe, maybe not wanting to know everything. And, you know, because it's like, it's like, I think that there are going to be some things that get left out here. There are going to be some things that we didn't finish.

• 24:55Andy Greenwald?

  From this list that we're gonna offer up?

• 24:57Chris Ryan?

  You could, you could make arguments that some things should be, get in, should get in there. But I have, I have felt more challenged this year than usual by staying on top of like, everything that's relevant in television.

• 25:09Andy Greenwald?

  Do you have like, a list of, not to put you on the spot, but do you have like, a woulda, couldas list? Like, things that you kind of hoped, you hoped to engage with, or things that you feel remiss? Because I'll tell you one thing, my conscience is clear.

• 25:21Chris Ryan?

  Is it?

• 25:22Andy Greenwald?

  Crystal.

• 25:23Chris Ryan?

  You don't care?

• 25:24Andy Greenwald?

  No, I didn't say I don't care, but like, I, hit me if you have some, because I'm curious.

• 25:29Chris Ryan?

  I mean, like, it's like Riot Girls, like, the Sally, yeah, you know?

• 25:32Andy Greenwald?

  Okay.

• 25:33Chris Ryan?

  Like, I feel bad for not saying that. Like, we've been criminally behind on, or really ignorant of Dark Winds. I really only watched the first few episodes of Interview with the Vampire, so I'm not prepared for, like, the vampire list at, like, things like that, where I know that there are things of people I really respect, their opinion, love, and I just haven't caught up on it. And I think probably, they look at us and they're like, damn, those guys like Star City, a lot.

• 25:56Andy Greenwald?

  It's true. What about, um, maybe we'll get to it when we finally can get to it, but I do find, I do find what's happened to that show, The Gold, so interesting, in that we really, really Really loved the first season of it. They made a second season of it, which was released in the UK last year, and I believe is now coming to our shores via PBS Masterpiece or something in the fall.

• 26:18Chris Ryan?

  I have to tell you something.

• 26:19Andy Greenwald?

  That is so specific.

• 26:21Chris Ryan?

  Last night I had a couple of glasses of rosé.

• 26:23Andy Greenwald?

  No shame in it?

• 26:24Chris Ryan?

  And.

• 26:25Andy Greenwald?

  This was after you recorded the Bill Simmons podcast?

• 26:27Chris Ryan?

  Yes, it was after. And then I tucked into bed because I knew I had to come in here and chat with you.

• 26:33Andy Greenwald?

  You need to rest for that.

• 26:35Chris Ryan?

  I'm about midway through London Falling, the Patrick Radenkeef book.

• 26:39Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, yeah.

• 26:42Chris Ryan?

  And right as I was like getting into bed, the fucking, the gold case comes up in the book.

• 26:49Andy Greenwald?

  No.

• 26:50Chris Ryan?

  And I was just like, the fucking streams are crossing, let's go!

• 26:53Andy Greenwald?

  Did you sit bolt upright in bed?

• 26:54Chris Ryan?

  Yes, yes.

• 26:56Andy Greenwald?

  Was Viva alarmed?

• 26:57Chris Ryan?

  No.

• 26:59Andy Greenwald?

  That's cool.

• 27:00Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I was like, this is what it's all about, man.

• 27:04Andy Greenwald?

  I'm just, I'm just trying to think, though, of any example of something that was relatively available, like the season, season one.

• 27:11Chris Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 27:12Andy Greenwald?

  And now it's like you have to, it's like, oh, I used to get this product at Albertson's or Acme or whatever your local supermarket is, but now it's only available by bespoke delivery from like

• 27:24Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 27:25Andy Greenwald?

  The Tinned Fish Shop, you know, outside of Seville.

• 27:27Chris Ryan?

  I almost wish we could go back to like going to like websites like arakgoals.net

• 27:32Andy Greenwald?

  That was you, dude.

• 27:33Chris Ryan?

  That was me. That was my spot.

• 27:34Andy Greenwald?

  Arakgoals, pardon.

• 27:38Chris Ryan?

  Because that's where I used to watch like live streamed soccer.

• 27:41Andy Greenwald?

  That's also where you were like, you ever heard about a show called Black Mirror?

• 27:44Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 27:45Andy Greenwald?

  And I was like, no, is it in the UK? And you were like, not yet.

• 27:47Chris Ryan?

  No.

• 27:48Andy Greenwald?

  It's only on this website.

• 27:50Chris Ryan?

  It was like, basically, you had to like download episodes of Black Mirror off of BBC from sort of like torrents and stuff.

• 27:55Andy Greenwald?

  Is the statute of limitations clear on that, do you think?

• 27:59Chris Ryan?

  They can come for me if they want, but.

• 28:00Andy Greenwald?

  That's what I like to hear.

• 28:02Chris Ryan?

  I can think of a few defense attorneys who would take my case up.

• 28:05Andy Greenwald?

  Okay. Well, I think this is also smart because I think we've learned in recent elections that like Gen Z voters, they don't really care. What they care about is how you own it. You know what I mean? Like own your problematic past or posts, as the case may be for you.

• 28:20Chris Ryan?

  How do you want to do our best of?

• 28:22Andy Greenwald?

  What did you do? What did, I mean, did you make 10?

• 28:23Chris Ryan?

  I have a long list of 17 shows.

• 28:25Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, damn.

• 28:26Chris Ryan?

  I have a numbered list of 10.

• 28:30Andy Greenwald?

  I have a numbered list of 10. I bet we have tons of overlap, as listeners of the podcast would suggest.

• 28:35Chris Ryan?

  Well, I was wondering, ordinarily, I would count us down. But I think that it might be a little bit more interesting if we sort of said, we stipulate that these are the top 5, which I think would probably, for both of us, the same things. Would you like to tell me your top 5?

• 28:47Andy Greenwald?

  Of course, I'm looking at it, and I'm like, who wrote this list?

• 28:50Chris Ryan?

  I'll tell you what my top 5 is while you think about yours.

• 28:53Andy Greenwald?

  What's weird about my list, because we were discussing before we started, like, how I use the Notes app, is that my list is like, The Pit, Almonds. You know what I mean?

• 29:00Chris Ryan?

  Almonds is a great show.

• 29:01Andy Greenwald?

  Almonds are really good for you. Okay, yeah, why don't you go?

• 29:04Chris Ryan?

  And as far as I know, not, like, smothered in parasites.

• 29:08Andy Greenwald?

  As far as you know?

• 29:08Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Number 1, I have Widows Bay.

• 29:11Andy Greenwald?

  Me too.

• 29:13Chris Ryan?

  Number 2, I have Industry.

• 29:14Andy Greenwald?

  Okay.

• 29:15Chris Ryan?

  Number 3, I have Star City.

• 29:16Andy Greenwald?

  That's my number 3, too.

• 29:17Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Number 4, I have The Pit.

• 29:20Andy Greenwald?

  Wow, yeah, okay.

• 29:21Chris Ryan?

  What, is that okay?

• 29:21Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, we're Spider-Man meme right now.

• 29:23Chris Ryan?

  And number 5, I have Night of the Seven Kingdoms.

• 29:25Andy Greenwald?

  Okay, we are exactly the same, boy, except at number 2, instead of Industry, I have Beef.

• 29:32Chris Ryan?

  Is Industry in your top 5?

• 29:34Andy Greenwald?

  Top 5, no. Top 10, yes.

• 29:36Chris Ryan?

  Interesting.

• 29:36Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 29:37Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 29:37Andy Greenwald?

  I am, I'm being consistent.

• 29:40Chris Ryan?

  Is Widows Bay recency bias? Is it, it's the shiny new car on the lot? What is it that makes it the number 1 show for us so far?

• 29:50Andy Greenwald?

  I think that it's a combination of all the things we love best about TV. I think that it's, without question, we, I know this is true for me, but I think it's true for us collectively in the podcast. We really get excited about something that is getting everyone excited. We get excited about the potential for surprise, even in this over-indexed media landscape. We get excited about the, it's a very pure-

• 30:19Andy Greenwald?

  Old fashioned kind of joy of sharing the good news that there is something really wonderful out there that you can discover and adopt. And the week to week release of Widows Bay reminded me of the week to week release of The Pit, season one. It did remind me of like those first beautiful few weeks, five years ago or four years ago, when the pit, sorry, when the bear dropped.

• 30:42Chris Ryan?

  Mm hmm.

• 30:43Andy Greenwald?

  So that collective euphoria is definitely part of it.

• 30:45Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 30:46Andy Greenwald?

  But the other thing about it was no show that's been out this year so far brought me, A, as much joy, but also just made me so deeply, deeply impressed.

• 30:55Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 30:55Andy Greenwald?

  In the sense of like the aesthetic and writerly and producerial and directorial achievement of it was just at such a high bar that it just, it made me very happy.

• 31:07Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I think that there is always going to be an extra 10% of juice that comes out of being like, wow, new people, new characters, actors who I'm familiar with in different roles, like getting to express themselves in different ways. And I think the totality, the realization of the world that Katie Dipold and Hiro Morai brought to us was just astonishing. They came on the show, we talked about that. I kind of had like a moment of revelation when Hiro was talking about, you know, putting, working with Katie to build out the visual world of that show. And, you know, and I often, I think, get seduced by the, by camera movement or, you know, expressive lighting or whatever I think are the tools of the director or the ways that

• 31:52Chris Ryan?

  a director might sign their name. And to hear him talking about, you know, set design, production design, costume design, building out like a thematic and consistent kind of way to see this whole thing, that to me is direction, you know?

• 32:09Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 32:09Chris Ryan?

  And Katie is obviously like the creator of the show and a brilliant writer. And I think brought her sensibility of kind of the Mike Schur sitcom era.

• 32:20Andy Greenwald?

  Mm hmm.

• 32:20Chris Ryan?

  And molded it with some of the best elements of not mystery box television, but genre television.

• 32:28Andy Greenwald?

  Absolutely. I couldn't agree more.

• 32:29Chris Ryan?

  Um, for me, industry took the biggest swings, took the most chances, broke the most tarts, bloody the most noses. Ruin the most bank accounts, you know, like it was, I think I just will just never ever look at this show as anything less than among the best things that have come out this decade. And what it's done with the characters, I think, once we get done with it next year and take a step back and see like, can you fucking believe when you go back to episode one and you see Yasmin and Harper on their first days at Pier Point, where we leave them and especially where we left

• 33:09Chris Ryan?

  them in this previous season, it's an unbelievable journey. And it still feels plausible, it still feels real, it still feels very, very current. And it's thrilling to look at and it's thrilling to watch.

• 33:22Andy Greenwald?

  Separate and apart from, you know, I thought the season was incredible and had incredible highs and also had some, to my mind, lows. So it's in my top 10, but not my top five. But I think the way that I think about the show and the thing that fills me with the most excitement about the show, and this is recency bias, but I think Mickey and Conrad would appreciate this, is when you watch as much World Cup as I've been watching for the last few weeks, as we all have hopefully, you know, especially when you get-

• 33:51Chris Ryan?

  As you supported Rojas.

• 33:53Andy Greenwald?

  Well, I'm listening purely in the Catalan feed.

• 33:55Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 33:57Andy Greenwald?

  The, my favorite thing is when the English announcers are calling the matches and like someone just immediately dribbles and shoots over the crossbar and they're like, you'd like to see a bit more cleverness, a bit more invention, a bit more optimism there, you know, when whoever has the ball. And that's what I think about when I think about industry where I'm like, okay, they, they've, they've, they've got the ball. They never fail to try something.

• 34:24Chris Ryan?

  They do not try to defend a one-nothing lead.

• 34:26Andy Greenwald?

  They do not park the bus. They do not even have a-

• 34:29Chris Ryan?

  And they could, you could do yet another season of crazy investments over here at Pier Point and Eric swinging his bat on the floor, you know, like-

• 34:37Andy Greenwald?

  They do not have an emergency brake on the vehicle that they're driving and what, what do we root for, you know, when we watch things? So I think that's unique and thrilling.

• 34:47Chris Ryan?

  We didn't get to talk about the Star City finale together.

• 34:50Andy Greenwald?

  Excuse me, beef erasure.

• 34:52Chris Ryan?

  Well, I was just, I don't know.

• 34:54Andy Greenwald?

  We're going to Star City. I just want to say. Sorry, I'm acting like you were a vegan.

• 34:57Chris Ryan?

  Go ahead and talk about beef.

• 34:59Andy Greenwald?

  No, I just, I just want to say again, like, my admiration for this season has only grown.

• 35:03Chris Ryan?

  Industry's not in your top five. My bad.

• 35:04Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 35:05Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 35:05Andy Greenwald?

  I just think that Lee Jungson, Sonny, who, who created the show, like, is using contemporary television at such an elite level. And what I mean by that is like the Netflix model and the Netflix largess and the auteur showrunner model to make something. And like the celebrity star machine in terms of who he's casting and who he has access to. And like Phineas is doing the, the music. But to do it, to make something that is so, such a tightrope walk of, of farce and searing emotional social drama. That's about right now and the way that we live through screens and internationally all at once. I find, I find, I find thrilling. I just thought that show was incredible.

• 35:45Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, it's in my, it's on my.

• 35:48Andy Greenwald?

  It's on your long list.

• 35:48Chris Ryan?

  Top 10, yeah, but it's not, it's not in, it's not in my top 10.

• 35:52Andy Greenwald?

  I'm glad we didn't, I'm glad though you were good. I did want to talk Star City because we didn't get to talk about the finale. Your thoughts are not on the record.

• 35:58Chris Ryan?

  They're, they're not. I think that my, my big takeaway was like the extent to which that functions as both a, a series and season finale.

• 36:09Chris Ryan?

  I think obviously there's final moments that suggest like, you know, the story going forward. And obviously there's a timeline that for all mankind is laid out with several of the characters from Star City. That suggests story to, to be told, yet to be told. I really, really, really, really want a second season. I would love to see it. But, you know, if you were just going to do like a, a short novella about, you know, the, the Soviet side of this story. This would be the perfect one.

• 36:41Andy Greenwald?

  But don't you think there is too much, I know that you want it, so I'm not asking you to be devil's advocate here, but like. Because the show so brilliantly privileged the inner emotional life of characters versus, you know, the Narcos Wikipedia, even fake history model of just showing us cogs in the larger machine.

• 36:57Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 36:58Andy Greenwald?

  That like, there's almost too much still left on the table to feel good about a result. Like, I think, I want it, I know you're not arguing otherwise, but like, I want the second season, not because I need to know what happened with the Venus program.

• 37:12Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 37:12Andy Greenwald?

  But more like, these particular people at this moment in this fake history, what happened to them?

• 37:17Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I want to see what happens with Anastasia and Sasha. I want to see what happens with Eurna. Yeah, absolutely.

• 37:22Andy Greenwald?

  I also want to say, because I got to talk to the showrunners, Matt and Ben, but I didn't, I don't think I get to talk too much specifically without them. And I did see someone saying, you know, the usual, like, oh, we just, we glazed the shows that the showrunners come on to talk about. And I don't-

• 37:37Chris Ryan?

  It goes the opposite way, guys. We glazed the shows and then we ask the showrunners-

• 37:40Andy Greenwald?

  Because that makes us interested in talking to them. I want to be really clear about something. Like, I didn't, we didn't invite them on, and then I watched the finale, and there was like, oh, I guess I'll just dance around some stuff. Like, I fucking love that when it came down to the decision to, do we make the single most emotionally compelling finale possible, or do we listen to the bright boys in the science consulting department and say like, oh, actually, Anastasia probably couldn't jump from orbit and land in Finland to rescue her arranged marriage husband?

• 38:11Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 38:12Andy Greenwald?

  They said, fuck logic, we're going with our heart here. Like, that's what, it was interesting to me. And so, you could talk all you want about how the show does not have fealty to the historical record of Finlandization, where Finland sent people back who tried to come over from the Soviet Union, or you could just be like, that's so sick, and it suits the characters.

• 38:32Chris Ryan?

  Also, the whole, maybe Finland's, like, relationship to Finlandization be different if Russia, if the Soviets had gotten to the moon? Can't they explain anything away by having this ripple effect coming off of their moon landing?

• 38:45Andy Greenwald?

  Also, if you genuinely watch that show, and you're like, this would be better if it was closer to the historical record, or to the logistics of orbital space travel, then- I don't know, touch grass nerd.

• 38:59Chris Ryan?

  I don't even know who we're talking to, but the entire act, the entire show is an act of suspension of disbelief.

• 39:05Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 39:06Chris Ryan?

  It's Soviet speaking and colloquial English and at points like acting way more like English people than probably Soviets.

• 39:13Andy Greenwald?

  Have you heard, we often, small sample size this, but like, have you, do you have any anecdotal experience in your life of people being like, oh, should I check that out and then liking it despite having some skepticism?

• 39:24Chris Ryan?

  Star City specifically?

• 39:26Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 39:26Chris Ryan?

  Um, yes.

• 39:27Andy Greenwald?

  You've converted some people?

• 39:28Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 39:28Andy Greenwald?

  Good.

• 39:29Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. We, we, we, we converted Tracy Letts.

• 39:32Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, yeah.

• 39:33Chris Ryan?

  I mean, I don't think he was skeptical. I just think he was like, I had, I would never have thought to check this out were it not for your enthusiasm. So.

• 39:40Andy Greenwald?

  How come he doesn't want to be third chair of this podcast?

• 39:42Chris Ryan?

  I think you.

• 39:45Andy Greenwald?

  I police this side of the table too fiercely?

• 39:47Chris Ryan?

  I think that there's room for one big, big personality on that side of the table. I would be interested to see the vibe between you two.

• 39:53Andy Greenwald?

  Uh, we get along.

• 39:55Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. No, you get along great, but I think like.

• 39:58Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 39:58Chris Ryan?

  I'm Chris Paul, man. Everybody gets a shot.

• 40:00Andy Greenwald?

  Okay.

• 40:02Chris Ryan?

  I don't need, I don't need to say what I think.

• 40:04Andy Greenwald?

  Famously beloved teammate, Chris Paul. Just celebrated in every locker room he's ever been in.

• 40:10Chris Ryan?

  Right. He just demands a lot.

• 40:12Andy Greenwald?

  He gets it.

• 40:13Chris Ryan?

  The pit, I guess I've diminished here because of its consistency. I, you know, I, I got excited about Windows Bay. I get excited about Star City. I think industry just took me places that I never would have guessed it would have at the beginning of the season. The pit essentially iterated on its first season, did the very wise thing of not having, it didn't have a mass shooting. It didn't have like a mass casualty event. It was just like, this was a very hard day. This is about doctors needing their own medicine, you know? I know, I thought it was, I thought it was remarkable and especially as the last few episodes I thought were extraordinary.

• 40:48Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 40:48Chris Ryan?

  Um, I, it's, it's, it's no criticism that it's at fourth here. It's just where it wound up. Was it at fourth for you?

• 40:54Andy Greenwald?

  We had the same top five.

• 40:55Chris Ryan?

  And Night of the Seven Kingdoms, I, I would love to know if there was any influence on this season of House of the Dragon by Night of the Seven Kingdoms. I'm sure that's not how TV production works where, I'm sure they were basically done House of the Dragon by the time Night of the Seven Kingdoms was airing.

• 41:10Andy Greenwald?

  Uh, I think they overlap. They don't film in the same place.

• 41:13Chris Ryan?

  No.

• 41:14Andy Greenwald?

  Um, House of the Dragon films at my beloved Leavesden Studios near scenic Watford, England.

• 41:19Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 41:20Andy Greenwald?

  And, um, I think, I think Night of the Seven Kingdoms was back in Belfast, if I'm not mistaken.

• 41:25Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 41:26Andy Greenwald?

  I actually think, and I haven't rewatched since it aired earlier in the year, but I feel like Night of the Seven Kingdoms, despite getting Emmy attention and being nominated for Best Drama Series in its first season, is almost underrated. And I feel even more impressed by its achievements in the light of this season of House of the Dragon. I'm not trying to like rage bait or pit them against each other, but-

• 41:48Chris Ryan?

  It's just you and me, man. You don't have to, don't worry about them.

• 41:51Andy Greenwald?

  But now Tracy's listening, and he's like leaning in, you know what I mean? And I want, I want him to respect this take. We didn't really talk about it, it's totally fine. I don't have a lot to add to the conversation about this week's House of the Dragon episode, but I was noticing the way that it feels in ways good and frankly, bad, that the show has so clearly ventured out beyond the peer, so to speak. Like, whether it's the lack of George Martin, or whether it's the, like a-

• 42:21Chris Ryan?

  You mean off the text?

• 42:23Andy Greenwald?

  Not just the text, but just like this-

• 42:24Chris Ryan?

  Okay, because it's still relatively, like, close to it, yeah.

• 42:26Andy Greenwald?

  I just have no, like, taking the, making the aesthetic decision to do the Rhaenyra POV episode-

• 42:33Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 42:34Andy Greenwald?

  -was a bold swing that I didn't know was in its playbook, and that was exciting to see. And we were joking to, like, casting, casting, what's his name, the American guy, Dan, I can't believe you say it, like, Dan Fogelberg, as-

• 42:47Chris Ryan?

  Fogler.

• 42:48Andy Greenwald?

  Fogler, sorry, yes, as Torren, the new master of coin. Like, these are some, these feel like aesthetic choices that are outside of what I would have expected.

• 42:57Chris Ryan?

  It certainly breaks from the orthodoxy of the first two seasons.

• 43:00Andy Greenwald?

  Or kind of the template that was set by Game of Thrones. And remember, one of the weirdest things about House of the Dragon is that, like, it has the same theme music. It is so intent, I'm telling you, "It's Sunday, remember what it feels like? Let's get back to that." This week's episode was fucking interminable, but it also had, like, these moments, Jesus Christ, but, like, I turned it on after England and I was just, like, watching those last 10 minutes again for two hours. There's the scenes inside of Tumbleton where it's just like, "Oh, Martha Stewart's Westeros", where the color palette is totally different. And I have wanted things like that on the show-

• 43:33Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 43:34Andy Greenwald?

  -but it feels so like, the, I understand why often production design on Westerosi shows have been conservative, because it is hard to say, "We've always done it this way, but what if we did this?" It is challenging.

• 43:46Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 43:47Andy Greenwald?

  Night of the Seven Kingdoms- Felt effortless in the way it was like, no, no, it's gonna be this now. And I'm not saying it was as bold of a turn as some of, even some of the decisions seen to seen in House of the Dragon this year. But it, it launched itself and asserted itself as its own thing so quickly that I'm very impressed by it.

• 44:06Chris Ryan?

  I greatly prefer this version of this story where we're getting outside of the, essentially the two family castles. Like, I, I was actually curious whether or not there's a term, or if there is an exercise when you're in a writer's room, where you're kind of diagramming how, these are the two main characters, and then from these two characters, these two characters will come, and then from these two, not, not necessarily like they begat them, but how, you know, now that we've got like Ormond and, you know, Aegon and Laris are over here, and we've got like all these different tones, and all these different like kind of aims that these characters may have, what they want out of all of this.

• 44:48Chris Ryan?

  And you know, that has come at the expense maybe of the Valyrian family tree, where I think Corlys has been sidelined since his, you know, if you're not gonna mint my kids, then you can go fuck yourself. Like, we haven't had as much of him. But I, I really enjoy, I am enjoying this version of the show much more than the first two seasons.

• 45:09Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, without question. I just think that like, everything about the show, including my own reactions to it, feel very reactive and still like in the light of what we are used to, or what we've come to expect, or what we've enjoyed before, from this type of storytelling, or this specific IP world, where Night of the Seven Kingdoms was like, hey, man, it's just a tournament. Let's chill out.

• 45:30Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, right.

• 45:30Andy Greenwald?

  Let's just, and like, I, I don't remember the last time, it, it had been since Game of Thrones, honestly, where I was like, I just fucking love this new character. I'm psyched. This is awesome. Let's just hang out here.

• 45:41Chris Ryan?

  Which is the new character that you loved?

• 45:42Andy Greenwald?

  Many. Specifically, I was thinking about, what's his name? I, I'm not gonna remember all these people's names.

• 45:47Chris Ryan?

  The Baratheon? The guy who the

• 45:50Andy Greenwald?

  Daniel Lings, yeah.

• 45:51Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, Daniel Lings. I bet that you and I are gonna have some variance in our bottom five.

• 45:55Andy Greenwald?

  Great.

• 45:56Chris Ryan?

  I want to hear yours.

• 45:59Andy Greenwald?

  Okay, you want me to go six to 10? Or 10 to 6?

• 46:02Chris Ryan?

  Six to 10.

• 46:02Andy Greenwald?

  Six to 10.

• 46:03Chris Ryan?

  Let's keep going in the same direction.

• 46:04Andy Greenwald?

  NBC's Rise and Fall of Reggie Dinkins.

• 46:07Chris Ryan?

  Great pick.

• 46:08Andy Greenwald?

  Seven, HBO's Industry. Eight, the show that I'm most excited to talk to you about today. HBO's The Dark Wizard.

• 46:14Chris Ryan?

  Love you. Yeah.

• 46:16Andy Greenwald?

  I do the work. Slowly. But I do the work.

• 46:20Chris Ryan?

  I never expected you to watch it. I was just like, this is great. Check it out if you if you miss 100 Foot Wave.

• 46:25Andy Greenwald?

  But you're also like, check it out if you like things that are great.

• 46:28Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 46:28Andy Greenwald?

  And I did. I like things that are great. Number nine, the Disney Corporation's Wonder Man.

• 46:34Chris Ryan?

  I have that on my long list.

• 46:36Andy Greenwald?

  And then I put The Agency at number 10, only because I haven't finished it. And it could be a it could be a grower.

• 46:43Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 46:44Andy Greenwald?

  But the Agency, season two. But just in terms of like my engagement with it, it deserved a spot.

• 46:49Chris Ryan?

  My number six is The Bear.

• 46:52Andy Greenwald?

  Look at you.

• 46:53Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, The Bear. I think those last two episodes make the beginning of the season a little bit more cohesive to me. I think if you look at it in totality with Gary, the standalone episode with Burnthall and Abin Moss-Bakrak, between Gary, between moments in the first few episodes of the final season, and then specifically episodes seven and eight. I just think it's a it was a wonderful send off. And I really, I think perhaps there's some sentiment, but I also really admire how the visual style of the show evolved. The stillness in some ways that it achieves in the last season compared to the frenetic nature of the first season. And I thought that there were some really beautiful performances, specifically from

• 47:38Chris Ryan?

  Bakrak in this final season.

• 47:40Andy Greenwald?

  This is amazing. I do think you're right to highlight something that I think is probably going to be overlooked a little bit, which is for all of the, I think, fair criticism The Bear's gotten in recent seasons of like, story, narrative, character paralysis.

• 47:55Andy Greenwald?

  I think it's important to differentiate that from the observation that the creative team did clearly look at this as an opportunity to do something different in terms of the filmmaking.

• 48:07Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 48:07Andy Greenwald?

  Like, we are going to do a season that is going to be this, and it will feel distinct in the terms of like, how much time passes, the music choices, the camera movement and all that. You can't just say it was more of the same in that regard.

• 48:19Chris Ryan?

  I also wonder whether time will be a little bit kinder to this series if you binge it, if you rediscover it, if you re-watch it. I don't know, in our landscape now, if that's something people are doing with shows of recent vintage like this. But I do think that, looked at as a whole, as a total meal, it's gonna be a better experience than, is it, are they gonna get out of this kitchen, or is like, he gonna quit, is what, like, what's gonna happen next? Like, you know, I think, now that I've seen the entire thing, I appreciate it more.

• 48:48Andy Greenwald?

  I think that's really interesting, because the show is about time. I mean, two seasons were just about a ticking clock.

• 48:54Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 48:54Andy Greenwald?

  And when it is now, it has now been set free from the bounds of The Mad Titan Kronos. And I just wanted to bring it back to the Odyssey if I could. And it may have a different, it may be a different experience.

• 49:09Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. We can talk about Dark Wizard in a second. It's my number seven.

• 49:14Andy Greenwald?

  Nice.

• 49:15Chris Ryan?

  Number eight, Shorzy, as usual. And number nine, The Agency, Almost Done That. Been ticking away. Thought this season has been excellent. Pacing-wise, much improved over the first one. I think also, like, you know, as is the case with The Bureau, you see these supporting characters become, they could have their own show, they could have, they're as novels' worth of interesting material for these various supporting characters. So, The Bear, Dark Wizard, Shorzy, The Agency. And my last one is Something Very Bad Is Going To Happen. The-

• 49:47Andy Greenwald?

  I wondered if I was gonna make it on your list.

• 49:48Chris Ryan?

  Netflix series about a cursed woman. And I thought that was great. And a really interesting kind of partner show to Widows Bay, in that it was trying to play with horror over like, a long-form story, which is one of the most difficult things to do.

• 50:03Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I couldn't, I watched the first episode and admired it, and couldn't, couldn't do it. Because of just the ratio. I thought it was very cool, and it was very visually- Compelling and as far as my limited between my fingers peeking out knowledge of horror, I was like, whoa, she's nailing it.

• 50:22Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 50:22Andy Greenwald?

  But it wasn't, it just wasn't leavened with the comedy.

• 50:25Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 50:25Andy Greenwald?

  Nor should it have been. It's its own show, but that was a bridge too far from it.

• 50:29Chris Ryan?

  There's a lot of bleeding out of their eyes.

• 50:30Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 50:32Chris Ryan?

  Let's talk a little bit about in depth about Dark Wizard. What prompted you to revisit this?

• 50:38Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 50:38Chris Ryan?

  Did you watch the first episode?

• 50:40Andy Greenwald?

  No, I never, I.

• 50:41Chris Ryan?

  Okay. What prompted you to turn it on?

• 50:43Andy Greenwald?

  Well, a couple, a couple of things.

• 50:46Andy Greenwald?

  You, I mean sincerely, you were like, it's really good.

• 50:50Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 50:52Andy Greenwald?

  I, my reasons for not engaging with it were really stupid and pithy, which was, I was like, I think I've given enough of my time to wizards named Potter on the HBO network recently, which was a killer text to send once.

• 51:08Chris Ryan?

  Did you send it to me?

• 51:09Andy Greenwald?

  You were among the recipients. You know, I sometimes, sometimes recycle material.

• 51:16Andy Greenwald?

  I had no, I had no reason not to do it other than just like time and because it didn't feel the urgency of scripted or whatever. And then, yeah, when I was traveling, I was like, there are four episodes of this and it's probably, you know, you know, there's a certain way that you can engage with a documentary that is like perfect for airplanes.

• 51:32Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 51:32Andy Greenwald?

  So it was.

• 51:33Chris Ryan?

  Where you get off the plane, you're like, I am an expert in this subject now.

• 51:36Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, I can't wait to tell everyone.

• 51:38Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 51:39Andy Greenwald?

  Also, it's good. It was kind of undercut by the fact that I did have working wifi on this airplane, but there is like a really interesting like Faraday cage of, of the brain that happens when you start watching a documentary in which you are blessedly ignorant of everything, in which you're like, now I can't use Google anymore because what if I accidentally find out what happens? So before we, can we do like a few minutes of table setting? Cause I want to just try to get people to watch it.

• 52:08Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I'll just say, this is a four part docu-series directed by Peter Mortimer and Nick Rosen, who have made several films and I think some other series about alpinists, you know, about, about mountain climbers. They made a film called The Alpinist that you can watch on Peacock, which is extraordinary. And I think one thing that's sort of, this, and then Dark Wizard follows.

• 52:33Chris Ryan?

  A man named Dean Potter, who is an infamous climber from the late 90s and early 2000s, kind of a contemporary of Alex Honnold, and Potter sort of made Yosemite and the valleys below the mountains and El Cap and all the famous mountains in Yosemite, his playground, and was kind of a punk rock icon of mountain climbing as it entered the mainstream consciousness through the proliferation of like video cameras and then more and more high-end cameras that could capture that kind of action. And he was also the, basically the face of Patagonia as it became more than just like the stuff you wore when you were camping, it was like

• 53:16Chris Ryan?

  a lifestyle brand as well. And I think was, you know, featured in several photographic campaigns for Patagonia. He is defined by his boundary pushing. You know, he was one of the people who was like, I can go climbing with a parachute so that if I fall-

• 53:36Andy Greenwald?

  He invented this.

• 53:37Chris Ryan?

  Yes. Like he brought parachutes with him while he would-

• 53:39Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, because he's such a wild thrill seeker who referred to, I didn't realize this was a phrase, the death consequence as a potential outcome for his activities and what that does to you and to your mind. He was just chasing highs and he himself was like very clearly and admittedly bipolar and had mental health struggles and was always pushing. And so went from free soloing at an absurd unprecedented degree to base jumping-

• 54:08Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 54:09Andy Greenwald?

  -to then realizing he could combine them into something he quite cleverly and clearly, you know, helpfully called freebasing-

• 54:15Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 54:16Andy Greenwald?

  -where you could free solo places and if you fell, you could just pull your chute-

• 54:19Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 54:20Andy Greenwald?

  -and then started doing wingsuit flying.

• 54:22Chris Ryan?

  Which is essentially like human flight. You know, it's jumping off a mountain to fly.

• 54:26Andy Greenwald?

  In a suit.

• 54:27Chris Ryan?

  So I would say just for people who haven't checked this out, and we could talk a little bit more in-depth about it in a second with a spoiler warning, the thing that- Blows my mind almost as much as what Potter does is the fact that they were able to capture this stuff.

• 54:44Andy Greenwald?

  All of it.

• 54:44Chris Ryan?

  Because I imagine as this show goes on, you know, I don't know if drone technology is, is.

• 54:51Andy Greenwald?

  It doesn't seem like it.

• 54:53Chris Ryan?

  Become widespread, but you basically have Potter like was compulsively documented everything in his life. If he didn't have a camera crew with him, he had his buddy filming him and.

• 55:06Andy Greenwald?

  Sweet Winkie.

• 55:07Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. And so those guys would basically have rope climbs next to him that would go up, or maybe they would get taken to the top of a, of a peak and then they would rappel down to film Potter coming up. But the footage in the show is fucking extraordinary and it's a similar sensation you get from, you're watching Hundred Foot Wave, although a lot of that I think is done with drones where you're like, how the hell am I getting like this swooping shot of this guy going down a titular Hundred Foot Wave? The same thing is going on in Dark Wizard where you're just like, I just can't believe there was a camera there when this guy fell off a mountain and threw a parachute up in the air. I mean, it's unreal to watch.

• 55:44Andy Greenwald?

  And the, the camera, the omnipresence of the cameras and the documentation and the, and the show does a really beautiful job with his, with Potter's journals and drawings and animating them. And just the, the outrageous, like 24/7 seemingly access to his mind as well as his actions also speaks to one of the really compelling tensions of the show, which is he believed what he was doing was art. He believed what he was doing is spirituality. And he had, like many people who believe those things in the vice grip of contemporary life, had a very challenging relationship to publicity, to profit, to partnerships and participation. And that, so the fact that he's just like, I am a private person

• 56:28Andy Greenwald?

  communing with nature, but I must be, all of this must be documented, is the central tension. And some of the most compelling parts of the series on an emotional level are the central tension between.

• 56:41Andy Greenwald?

  Potter being like deeply Gen X and then everyone else younger than him.

• 56:46Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 56:46Andy Greenwald?

  And you watch him trying to navigate this just like middle finger anti authoritarianism, spiritual lifestyle. And then Alex Honnold shows up on the scene and he's roughly a decade younger. I think he's like eight or nine years younger and he's like an IT guy. He has no fear. He has no qualms about turning free climbing, free soloing El Cap into a Squarespace ad. And the relationship that each of them have to each other, but also to their work and also to their own minds is so fascinating.

• 57:17Chris Ryan?

  Well, it's just, it's unbelievable. It's the, it's, it's, and it can be applied to so many different, that relationship and their different approaches to mountain climbing could be applied to so many different arenas of life where Potter labors over and stresses over and frets over like, how am I going to climb this? I'm, I could die. Like, it's not the right time yet. It's not, you know, he's legitimately.

• 57:40Andy Greenwald?

  I wasn't feeling it.

• 57:41Chris Ryan?

  He's legitimately scared, but I think he's also participating in a narrative about like a guy facing a great challenge. And Honnold's like, I fucking climbed it. I climbed it. I looked like, I looked at it and then I just climbed up it. And, you know, like,

• 57:52Andy Greenwald?

  Hit a checklist.

• 57:54Chris Ryan?

  And it, and it not only is it like drives Potter nuts because this guy keeps beating him two things that he wanted to do, but he's almost challenging the very idea that one individual could claim ownership over a mountain or over a climb. Like Honnold's like, if you want to beat me, beat me. Otherwise, like, get out of my way. And it's not that, you know, I, I love all of that. I love the social subculture of Yosemite and guys living in the valley and guys hanging out there year round and getting to know the Rangers and what they eat and like the stews that they eat and kind of like the, not dumpster diving, but the way they'll be like, oh, you can go over here to pick up good wifi or you can eat, you know, that you, you sometimes like people leave food behind here and you

• 58:35Chris Ryan?

  can pick it up and stuff like that. All fascinating. I think obviously to talk any more in depth about the show.

• 58:42Andy Greenwald?

  One thing before spoilers.

• 58:43Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 58:45Andy Greenwald?

  Invariably, if we are watching either in person or more often in our own respective Faraday cages, sporting events, I will ask or text, obviously, none of us play professional football, but if we did, like, what position do you think you would enjoy doing? Or I'll ask you about, like, we're watching World Cup, I'm like, better to be good at basketball or be good at soccer for one day?

• 59:07Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 59:07Andy Greenwald?

  And either way, it's part of like the fantasy of like, these people are the best at doing something that looks fun, or must feel great to be able to do.

• 59:14Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 59:14Andy Greenwald?

  And that is part of the thrill. I will say that free soloing has jumped above 100-foot wave surfing as the thing I have no interest in ever doing and feel no spiritual connection to whatsoever.

• 59:27Chris Ryan?

  I, I.

• 59:27Andy Greenwald?

  It is fucking terrifying.

• 59:29Chris Ryan?

  I think it's incredibly healthy in life to have things you like to look at.

• 59:32Andy Greenwald?

  Sure. Yeah.

• 59:33Chris Ryan?

  Not everything needs to be a participation thing, and I don't have any interest in doing either of those things, but I realize that, like, I really love watching people, like, accomplish great feats in nature. I mean, it.

• 59:49Andy Greenwald?

  True.

• 59:50Chris Ryan?

  It's just, it, it's a great use of the endless libraries of content to have more and more exciting nature documentaries. There is, um, okay, so here, we'll put a little pin in this.

• 1:00:03Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, we'll do a little spoiler.

• 1:00:04Chris Ryan?

  And we'll spoil a bit of Dark Wizard.

• 1:00:07Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:07Chris Ryan?

  It's been out for a while, so maybe people have gotten a chance to see it. And I think also, this is in general, if you Google Dean Potter, you'll see that he passed away in 2015. He died while doing one of these freebase jumps.

• 1:00:20Andy Greenwald?

  The way he was doing the flying.

• 1:00:22Chris Ryan?

  The flying, yeah. In Yosemite. Ethically and journalistically, they make a decision in this, in this series, similar to the one, I can't remember the name of it, but there was a freediving documentary about a woman who, you know, would do these free dives very deep into the ocean and come back up, and there's all these, like, you know, depressurization and, you know, making sure you can make here and here, and how long can you hold your breath? And in a similar way, the documentary keeps up the appearance that this person may be alive. Like, the way that they frame the interviews, uh, like, it's not a shock, but if you don't

• 1:01:07Chris Ryan?

  Google, you'll be like, ah, this person died.

• 1:01:10Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, I would say.

• 1:01:13Andy Greenwald?

  It was, it's pretty clear to me that he is not participating in the documentary and that the access-

• 1:01:17Chris Ryan?

  In the present tense.

• 1:01:18Andy Greenwald?

  Well, and the fact that they have unfettered access to his private journals and things suggests. But, so I was in that fugue state because I did the first two on one flight and then a few days later I did the other ones. And so I was stuck. I knew that he was-

• 1:01:31Chris Ryan?

  I wasn't sure. I can't remember if you texted me, were like, is Dean Potter still out there?

• 1:01:35Andy Greenwald?

  I did not.

• 1:01:36Chris Ryan?

  No, okay.

• 1:01:37Andy Greenwald?

  I did not. Does sound like me, but I didn't in this case. But, holding that knowledge and then wondering, you know, simultaneously, what, which of these things is going to kill him? Because it could be almost anything that he's doing in any of the episodes. And then how is it in the fabric of the documentary?

• 1:01:55Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:55Andy Greenwald?

  Because the documentary is not like a, it's not like a, you know, the cup game when you're getting scammed on the street. Where it's like, they're just trying to reveal something to you. It's actually like trying to tell you a story about risk and adventure and mental health and friendship, male friendship, honestly.

• 1:02:12Chris Ryan?

  I think that there's like an obvious, they made a narrative decision not to say that he dies in the first episode. And they do it to create a sense of tension rather than a sense of tragedy. It is obviously tragic what happened, but you can say in the beginning that this guy was a divisive and beloved figure-

• 1:02:30Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:30Chris Ryan?

  -in this community and was constantly pushing and what this show is about or what this story is about is about people who willingly take their life in their hands and what happens when one thing goes wrong and what hap- whether or not, whether or not like that's an acceptable sort of consequence of a hobby, essentially. You know, like it can be a lifestyle, it can be something that brings you closer to kind of an epiphany or a state of spiritual nirvana, but it still is a hobby, you know, like-

• 1:02:59Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:59Chris Ryan?

  And you can die doing it.

• 1:03:01Andy Greenwald?

  And one of the most touching and affecting and surprising turns in the documentary is that- Although I don't think it's surprising for people who are paying attention to this more as a story of mental health or addiction, which I think tends to follow a similar pattern, which is that in the fourth episode, the way it's, but also essentially in the last act of his life, he had a moment of calm.

• 1:03:24Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 1:03:24Andy Greenwald?

  And he had a moment of a connection with a partner, this woman Jen, who he'd worked with before, who he, at Patagonia, whom he reconnected with, her children and the role that he played in her, in their life. And then, out of nowhere, he gets a fucking dog who becomes his best friend and starts repelling around the world and face jumping with him.

• 1:03:41Chris Ryan?

  A lot of comments about whether or not that was a humane thing to do with the dog.

• 1:03:45Andy Greenwald?

  Dog seems psyched.

• 1:03:46Chris Ryan?

  Dog is psyched, yeah.

• 1:03:47Andy Greenwald?

  Dog seems psyched. Only to be pulled back in by the old demons, among them are ego.

• 1:03:55Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:56Andy Greenwald?

  About being able to do more than other people or to be challenged by younger people. And it's really affecting the way that story is told. I think that, like, they make such smart and really compelling editorial decisions, which is lingering on not just the ways that Dean Potter's psychology hurt the people around him, which is a familiar story, again, anytime you watch Greatness, there's always the people who get left behind, but really underscoring how the people in his wake loved him, like profoundly in ways that could never be matched. And so there's a lot of like, there's a lot of middle-aged men crying.

• 1:04:30Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:30Andy Greenwald?

  In the last part, which, you know, who among us? I thought that was really, really affecting in that there's an incredible moment in the last one where one of the guys who got really hurt by Dean and broke off with him years before breaks down and basically is like, calls out to someone behind the camera and we realize that someone working on the show is one of the other guys.

• 1:04:49Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:50Andy Greenwald?

  And he's like, can you say something? He's like, you're being a pansy. And then he comes over and they hug each other. And I'm like, what was left in this guy's wake is present.

• 1:04:58Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 1:05:01Andy Greenwald?

  The other thing I really wanted to say was the last 20 minutes of the third episode, maybe, we don't do this, but if we were doing like scenes of the year or sequences of the year.

• 1:05:12Chris Ryan?

  Is that China?

• 1:05:12Andy Greenwald?

  China.

• 1:05:13Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:14Andy Greenwald?

  It is so fucking insane and so powerful and depressing and intense. Basically, what happens is at a very low point in his life and career, before he kind of briefly resurfaced as a family guy.

• 1:05:29Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:30Andy Greenwald?

  And has just, he's dating someone who took her life on his property and at a very, very low point, isolated from everyone except good old Winkie. Dean is offered the chance to go, basically, put on a show on live television.

• 1:05:44Chris Ryan?

  Chinese state television, yeah.

• 1:05:45Andy Greenwald?

  Chinese state television, where they pay him $200,000 to do a big base jump and then do a, like a rope line.

• 1:05:53Chris Ryan?

  A wire walk, yeah.

• 1:05:54Andy Greenwald?

  A wire walk. And he's there and the conditions aren't, it's not just that the conditions aren't ideal or are unfamiliar, it's that it's the opposite of everything he's been doing up to this point, where he's surrounded and crowded and there's voices and everything that would be distracting to anyone, but particularly to someone who's like a soul surfer of this shit. And that there's all this footage of like him trying to do this walk. First yelling at everyone for putting up a net, saying, "I don't, I'm not a circus performer. I don't do this shit with a net. Take the net away." So that there is a death consequence.

• 1:06:25Chris Ryan?

  Walking above a canyon, yeah.

• 1:06:27Andy Greenwald?

  And the day before, he's practicing with a tether, which isn't super cool either, because basically he, he's walking and then will fall and has to catch and like spins around it.

• 1:06:38Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:38Andy Greenwald?

  And they're, the cameras are watching him do this and fail and fail and fail. And he doesn't make it very far at all. And the narration is telling us that like, even if he made it to the middle, it would be harder than anything he'd ever done because it's wobbling, because it's farther.

• 1:06:51Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:52Andy Greenwald?

  And then that night, he yells at Winkie and tells him he's worthless for not bringing, and I, this is a direct quote, "butt weed", which is apparently the weed you bring to China by storing it within your body cavity.

• 1:07:02Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 1:07:03Andy Greenwald?

  Winkie did not do that.

• 1:07:04Chris Ryan?

  Winkie is his photographer and kind of like, you know, his guy.

• 1:07:08Andy Greenwald?

  Kind of like older, like, but who loves him. And then the next day, the cameras are there and there is no net and he has not been able to do this with a tether. And he does it. And at the end, he collapses weeping onto these Chinese rocks. And like the Chinese announcers are like, it's translated with the subtitles are like, Mr. Potter is very emotional.

• 1:07:32Andy Greenwald?

  This is just an incredibly visceral and horrifying encapsulation

• 1:07:37Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:37Andy Greenwald?

  of what the world does to all of us to some small degree, but particularly to this guy, who whether simplistically or not, and clearly ruinously, kind of believed in his own.

• 1:07:51Chris Ryan?

  Mythology.

• 1:07:51Andy Greenwald?

  Mythology, that's the word.

• 1:07:53Chris Ryan?

  And he's, and he's, that's a great encapsulation of all of his best and worst impulses. Like he, there is a degree of an entertainer in him, you know, but there is also a degree of like a solitary artist. How do you, how do you make those two things converge on Chinese state television, you know?

• 1:08:09Andy Greenwald?

  And how do you define your life if it's only by risking death?

• 1:08:12Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, and also like you're doing something where you're responsible for other people. And it's like, if you're gonna essentially like the, your wrinkle, the thing you bring to the game is I might die. Like that's dangerous for other people and it's also dangerous for the people who love you. It's an extraordinary show.

• 1:08:26Andy Greenwald?

  It was awesome.

• 1:08:27Chris Ryan?

  It was awesome. I'm glad you checked it out.

• 1:08:28Andy Greenwald?

  Thank you for your recommendation. See, I'm not just a co-host, I'm also a beneficiary.

• 1:08:32Chris Ryan?

  Should we do a little bit of After Dark about the World Cup before we get out of here?

• 1:08:36Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, and do you want me to save my Sugar season two takes till next week?

• 1:08:39Chris Ryan?

  Uh, how many did you watch?

• 1:08:41Andy Greenwald?

  I just watched, I just, I just watched one, man. I, I, you know, just like.

• 1:08:50Chris Ryan?

  Did you stroke out for a second?

• 1:08:51Andy Greenwald?

  The light just went out. You know, you know, my review is honestly, I could have just, you know, the part.

• 1:08:56Chris Ryan?

  You know, you know, it's worth pulling back the curtain is that he and I were talking, Andy and I were talking about like what to talk about on this episode and, you know, Lucky, the new Apple show. Sugar is back. And we both were like, I don't want to be down on a first episode of anything.

• 1:09:13Andy Greenwald?

  Right now, it just didn't feel good, like.

• 1:09:14Chris Ryan?

  Not after England lost.

• 1:09:16Andy Greenwald?

  No, but I did, I mean, I watched, I did watch the first part of the first episode of Lucky and one of my favorite things about it is that it 1,000%, I have no inside knowledge, but like clearly it started with a scene and then said X months earlier, but someone at Apple got the note that we're all sick of that. So it just took the chyron away, like.

• 1:09:37Chris Ryan?

  Oh, so it's just a flashback without telling you what's happening?

• 1:09:40Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, but it still was like, it'll be more exciting soon. Don't worry. Yeah, but yes, we didn't want to be negative, but like, there's something about Sugar, because it's like, every few days, I'm like, there's an L.A. noir show with Colin Farrell, and he looks great in suits, and we love him, and I can't quite kick it. And my review of it ultimately is, like, that scene from the end of episode three of Succession, season four, where they're at the bar in New York City, and Logan says, "I love you, but you're not serious people."

• 1:10:10Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:11Andy Greenwald?

  That's my review of Sugar. It is such like, if we still had, like, if I still was a participant in the website and was like, writing things, I would probably devote way too much time writing about this show.

• 1:10:24Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:25Andy Greenwald?

  Because it is an exemplar of like, what are we doing? Because Colin Farrell being a private detective in L.A. with Apple's budget is like, let's do it.

• 1:10:33Chris Ryan?

  And shooting in L.A., right?

• 1:10:34Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:34Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, with most of the Breaking Bad cast and production team, yeah.

• 1:10:39Andy Greenwald?

  Well, and, like, did so many things for season two that I'm like, that I admire, like, what they've done with the cast, and like, I'm just looking at the people they've added. Added for season two are actors we really like.

• 1:10:55Chris Ryan?

  Tony Dalton.

• 1:10:55Andy Greenwald?

  Tony Dalton, Jin Ha, Sasha Kaya, Shay Wiggum. Like, that's awesome. And, but, as many people know, and I'm sorry for the spoiler, it is an L.A. noir show that has revealed that our main character is also an alien, an alien who understands the world through old films, so it does The Dream On, in which every so often, it cuts to the movie that the scene is aping, which is cool when Fernando Morelles is doing it in the pilot, and then just fucking exhausting in season two, episode one, reshooting pool, and it's showing scenes of like, The Hustler. What's truly amazing, and I do feel like people who are studying how TV gets made these days about this season, is that the opening before, the first eight minutes of

• 1:11:39Andy Greenwald?

  season two, is the most impressive yada yada I've maybe ever seen, in which Sam Catlin, who used to work on the Vince Gilligan universe and worked on Severance briefly, is now fully running the show after coming on later, I think, in season one. And so the first eight minutes are like, remember all that shit about all the other aliens and his hunt for his alien sister and the alien brother who ran off with the knowledge of her existence? Gimme eight minutes. Give me fucking eight minutes in a hotel room in Bangkok and we'll just be a detective show, I promise.

• 1:12:12Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:12:12Andy Greenwald?

  And it almost gets there so that once he's finally back and investigating like brothers, boxer brothers in Koreatown, I'm like, okay. And it leans into other things. I'm like, I don't care where this alien gets his money and he buys like Hemingway's house in the Hollywood Hills. I'm like, let's, let's do that.

• 1:12:30Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:31Andy Greenwald?

  But because it is a contemporary TV show and it just feels this fealty to like, because there must be some people who are watching it being like, look, I don't know about detectives, but I fucking love aliens. There is this, it just feels the need to like, try to touch this third or at this point, fourth rail, in which case he's like, at the end of this, beginning of, he's beginning a new investigation and at the end of the episode, he's like, maybe more of my brothers are still out there and he sends out like an alien distress signal.

• 1:12:55Chris Ryan?

  I'm like, just, nobody cares that he's an alien. Here's what Sugar reminds me of. Yes. It's not reminds me of because this has never happened, but it would almost be like you go to a, a California, you know, eatery.

• 1:13:07Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, sure.

• 1:13:08Chris Ryan?

  And somebody's just like, uh, we've, we've, sir, you, you ordered and we brought you the Branzino and you're like, I love Branzino. And they're like, and it's, um, the Branzino, would you, would you like some Parmesan with it? And you're like, absolutely not.

• 1:13:21Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:22Chris Ryan?

  Those two things shouldn't go together.

• 1:13:23Andy Greenwald?

  Correct.

• 1:13:24Chris Ryan?

  And they're like, we've also roasted some Parmesan inside the Branzino, you know?

• 1:13:27Andy Greenwald?

  Would you like to tell us about how, would you like us to tell you about how we do things here?

• 1:13:31Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. And it's, we put cheese inside of a roasted fish. You can't get it out. You know what I mean?

• 1:13:35Andy Greenwald?

  You can't get it out.

• 1:13:36Chris Ryan?

  Now you're, now you're stuck with these two flavors that have been separated for a reason and are now brought together. And there are probably, there is probably a pretty cool hour and 45 minute detective movie from 1997 about an alien. And I, and I, I think it could have worked and I admire Colin Farrell for just trying stuff, but this was always like, it's in fact, like you cannot separate it.

• 1:14:00Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 1:14:01Chris Ryan?

  And if you're pulling in it, and so I, I just, I, and for that reason, I'm out.

• 1:14:05Andy Greenwald?

  serialization, serialization, intense canonical serialization is the like de facto storytelling model of our time and it is also kind of the anchor and the curse.

• 1:14:15Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:16Andy Greenwald?

  Because.

• 1:14:18Andy Greenwald?

  Just start it over would be better. Just start it in the right place is so crucial. But much like, I am sure that there are a lot of-

• 1:14:26Chris Ryan?

  It would've been better if he wakes up and is like, "God, it was a weird dream about me being an alien. Now I can be a detective."

• 1:14:31Andy Greenwald?

  There's a, I imagine right now, there's some big brains who are dispatched to Atlanta to the set of Man of Tomorrow, being like, "So Supergirl, rejected soundly. How do we now rework this movie to pick up the threads that people liked, but not the ones they didn't like? And how do we edit Lobo out of this? Or reduce Millie Alka, whatever." We're always, they're always trying to backfill and frontfill at the same time, instead of telling the story. And the other sin is, and I mean no disrespect to all the lovely, talented people who must've worked on the show. If you're gonna be in noir, you gotta get some crackling dialogue. You can't just cosplay it. And there's a scene in this episode where Colin Farrell, who looks the part, he's incredible, beautiful suit, beautiful car. And he's raising a cocktail in a bar and he's having some, you know, like smoky conversation with a woman.

• 1:15:16Andy Greenwald?

  And this is the dialogue, okay? Unpack this for me. She says, "I'm Charlotte." And he says, "Like the web?" And she says, "Like the spider's web."

• 1:15:27Chris Ryan?

  What other web would there be?

• 1:15:28Andy Greenwald?

  What other web is it? The worldwide fucking web? What other web? What was that?

• 1:15:36Chris Ryan?

  I mean, I didn't think you were gonna do anything on Sugar. You have like a whole presentation here. This is amazing.

• 1:15:41Andy Greenwald?

  What's the difference? So when she says, "He's like a spider's web," which I guess is an effective tool to capture prey.

• 1:15:47Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:48Andy Greenwald?

  And she's like, "No, no, I'm like the web that writes messages so a pig will live." And he's like, "Oh, I see how that's gonna be relevant, because I'm a farmer." Do you know, like-

• 1:15:58Chris Ryan?

  Did he say that?

• 1:15:58Andy Greenwald?

  No, but I'm trying to make it make sense.

• 1:16:01Chris Ryan?

  I won't be watching. Thank you. You saved me some time.

• 1:16:03Andy Greenwald?

  I just, I just want things to be good, man.

• 1:16:06Chris Ryan?

  I know, and this is a passion project for you, you know? I get it.

• 1:16:10Chris Ryan?

  Did you have any observations about the World Cup you'd like to share?

• 1:16:14Andy Greenwald?

  Well, I did say, I did say in our text thread yesterday with our Englishmate Joe that like, now I do, I feel like now I can apply for citizenship. Like, I already have spent a lot of time there and do enjoy a piece of steamed fish and then the night at the pub having a small beer.

• 1:16:33Andy Greenwald?

  Sorry, application rejected. I'm just saying that like, I did feel like this was my first full World Cup supporting the Three Lions and like,

• 1:16:41Chris Ryan?

  What would you do if confronted with Liam Gallagher's adage about, we don't go out for one. If I'm going out, we're having hundreds.

• 1:16:48Andy Greenwald?

  I have had drinks with Conrad Kay. Like, I, and my drinks, I've watched him have drinks. You know, I, I confronted it every day along with my mortality and the heat death of my liver when I was there. I'm not good at that anymore, but,

• 1:17:07Chris Ryan?

  So watching England get its heart torn out on international television prepares you for your inevitable?

• 1:17:12Andy Greenwald?

  Migration? No, it just made me feel like I'd earned it more because, you know, as a, as a lifelong fan of my beloved Tottenham Hotspur, like, you know, we had a, we had a rough spell recently, but we're poised to come back stronger than ever thanks to some crucial international signings.

• 1:17:29Chris Ryan?

  You are the sugar of being a Tottenham fan. You're like, I'm alive on this planet.

• 1:17:34Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:36Chris Ryan?

  I read a lot of the Athletic articles and now I'm ready to go.

• 1:17:40Andy Greenwald?

  Well, in my defense,

• 1:17:42Chris Ryan?

  And then we cut to like famous Gareth Bale goals.

• 1:17:46Andy Greenwald?

  In my defense, I did, I've spent a lot of time in London recently and I've had, I have lovely friends across the aisle, both sides of the aisle.

• 1:17:54Chris Ryan?

  Both sides of the North London aisle.

• 1:17:55Andy Greenwald?

  Well, and just across the Premier League and English football generally. And I must say that culturally and emotionally, I really, really connected with the absolute abject misery and self-loathing of Tottenham fans, especially over the last season.

• 1:18:12Chris Ryan?

  I assure you, all 20 clubs feel the exact same way about themselves.

• 1:18:16Andy Greenwald?

  It did feel right. I just felt like I was vibing with these friends in particular and where they were in their relationship to sport. And I also thought, I thought two things and I'll share them, just, just us, just us, dormice.

• 1:18:31Chris Ryan?

  Just this alien detective.

• 1:18:34Andy Greenwald?

  Just this alien fucking podcasters. One was.

• 1:18:38Chris Ryan?

  This is where I take my skin off.

• 1:18:42Andy Greenwald?

  Underneath it is just Liverpool red.

• 1:18:44Chris Ryan?

  It's Bill.

• 1:18:46Andy Greenwald?

  He's hosting this podcast. He would put up with this shit.

• 1:18:52Andy Greenwald?

  That I did feel like some sort of perverse sports pride of like joining a team. I was committing as they were getting relegated. I was like, this would be a good arc. I'm OK with this. That even if we have to fight our way back to the Premier League, like, that's fine. So I did feel like that was a good choice. That was not front running. And yet secretly, my next step was realizing, you know, because we finally got rid of, you know, the money manager who was really dragging the squad down with his.

• 1:19:19Chris Ryan?

  Daniel Levy?

• 1:19:20Andy Greenwald?

  Well, I knew that. I just didn't want to embarrass you. Yeah, with his, you know, his, his, uh, little bit of a skinflint, you know? Like, he wouldn't pay more than 100 pounds for a transfer.

• 1:19:29Chris Ryan?

  He drove a hard bargain.

• 1:19:30Andy Greenwald?

  That's right. So, so to join a team now that they're like, I guess we better spend and buy everybody?

• 1:19:38Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 1:19:39Andy Greenwald?

  Is a really good time to become a fan.

• 1:19:41Chris Ryan?

  It is. If it blows up, you will be insolvent, but, uh.

• 1:19:44Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, that's all of us. I also did feel like it was important to throw myself across the landmine of this club's, I would say, complicated relationship to Judaism.

• 1:19:59Andy Greenwald?

  You know, like, and then their fanbase and some of the chants and some of the... I was like, I think that, I think this is a dialogue that could benefit from my presence.

• 1:20:07Chris Ryan?

  Are you excited to engage with people about it?

• 1:20:09Andy Greenwald?

  Thrilled, especially online.

• 1:20:10Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:11Andy Greenwald?

  I think it'll be good.

• 1:20:11Chris Ryan?

  Well, I think that, you know, if you thought TV internet was annoying, wait till you fucking get a load of this.

• 1:20:17Andy Greenwald?

  But do you think generally, like, I mean, you did share a lot of, I thought, quite smart thoughts about England's failed strategy yesterday. But as a longer and actually credentialed football fan, is there anything you would like to share about England's flameout and my burgeoning attempt? I mean, every four years, I'm like, I'm going to get really into club soccer.

• 1:20:35Chris Ryan?

  I want to know how, how accountable you want me to keep you? How, do you want me to hold you accountable for this, this new hot, new passion of yours? Like, do you want me to be like, hey, man, 11 a.m., Tottenham's playing Everton?

• 1:20:47Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 1:20:48Chris Ryan?

  On Peacock.

• 1:20:49Andy Greenwald?

  That will be good for both of us, because you hate Everton.

• 1:20:51Chris Ryan?

  And you'll, I don't like Everton, but like, I just want to know, like, is this something where you're like? You want me to, you know, measure you as you, as you go along?

• 1:21:00Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 1:21:00Chris Ryan?

  Or is it just like, let you have your experience?

• 1:21:02Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, I think that, no, I want, I want, I want to be held accountable.

• 1:21:06Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:21:06Andy Greenwald?

  I

• 1:21:06Chris Ryan?

  Cause I don't have children, so it's okay for me to watch stuff whenever.

• 1:21:10Andy Greenwald?

  To be fair, maybe it's just like accrued hours.

• 1:21:12Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:13Andy Greenwald?

  But like, so far you haven't questioned my 76ers fandom bona fides, even though I don't really watch the games.

• 1:21:19Chris Ryan?

  Well, I don't really think you super love watching sports. I think they stress you out. I think you love following sports.

• 1:21:25Andy Greenwald?

  I have, but yeah, well, the World Cup, maybe because of the lack of like decades of deep emotional parasocial

• 1:21:32Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 1:21:33Andy Greenwald?

  fuckery.

• 1:21:33Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:34Andy Greenwald?

  Has just been a pure joy.

• 1:21:35Chris Ryan?

  And you've never come out one side or the other on the Falklands either.

• 1:21:38Andy Greenwald?

  Well, that's right. I, I'm like, let, let the voters of Maine decide that one too.

• 1:21:41Chris Ryan?

  That's right.

• 1:21:42Andy Greenwald?

  Throw that one on the fire for them. I would like to be held accountable. I am excited. Every four years I do say some version of like, now is the time to just really become a dedicated Premier League fan. And then I run up against the realities of life and time zones, but I think it's, I think I'm, I think I'm ready.

• 1:21:57Chris Ryan?

  I'll say this about yesterday's match.

• 1:21:59Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:00Chris Ryan?

  Fuck.

• 1:22:00Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, it sucked.

• 1:22:01Chris Ryan?

  Also, when Letaro Martinez scored the winner.

• 1:22:07Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:08Chris Ryan?

  The reaction of the Argentinian players.

• 1:22:10Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:11Chris Ryan?

  Is, is, is the, the plunger going into the vein? That is what it is all about. Like

• 1:22:17Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:22:18Chris Ryan?

  It's a, it's a celebration, but it's like a connection with their fans. And it's also like an act that is

• 1:22:27Chris Ryan?

  unique in sports, I think.

• 1:22:28Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:29Chris Ryan?

  Scoring a goal for your national team to win a match of that consequence.

• 1:22:33Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:35Chris Ryan?

  It blows my mind every time it happens and it happens every, you know, a couple of months, every couple of years, like whatever the, in a Premier League match, in a Champions League match, you'll see something and you're just like, holy fucking shit, I can't believe, like 80,000 people are having like, uh, uh, an absolute like out of body experience. The guys on the field are the same people as the people in the stands. Like, it just feels like that is, that is something that I chase all the time with this sport. It's why I will never quit it.

• 1:23:05Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:05Chris Ryan?

  And it's why for as much of like, you know, A secondary market ticket hiking, you know, bullshit festival that you could see the World Cup as, it's still like unlike anything else. And I was talking to Ian about this when I was just like, you know, we were, we were talking about our buddies at Bad Brother and Nick at the bar who is in Philadelphia during the group stages was like, dude, just like some nights, like 25 Ecuadorians would just come and hang out. You know, it's like, that never happens. That's not, there's not like a normal experience where people travel like this and people go to support their countries and their, and their sides like this. And it's, it's really astonishing. So on the one hand, like while I don't love that Argentina team, like watching them win in some

• 1:23:49Chris Ryan?

  way was like, why I also love the sport. The other object of fascination about yesterday is that they have had, I've watched multiple generations at this point of the England national team and several managers. And there is something so deeply interesting about whether or not there is like an inherent characteristic in the English football players specifically, that is like, I can't really, I can't imagine a success too big, you know, like whether they, whether they actually do start freaking out if

• 1:24:24Andy Greenwald?

  If it looks like they're gonna win.

• 1:24:25Chris Ryan?

  If it looks like they're gonna win. Yeah. And in some ways, they would have been better off going down 1-0, you know?

• 1:24:30Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, but that fits the narrative.

• 1:24:32Chris Ryan?

  Cause they could have just been like

• 1:24:33Andy Greenwald?

  Classic international underdogs.

• 1:24:34Chris Ryan?

  We're going out on our shields and we're gonna play, play football and we're gonna run at these guys and we're, we're gonna go for it, you know? And that instead, they kind of accidentally ceded that role to the Argentinians. And it was, it was a weird match, weird first half, people kicking the shit out of each other and then just like bang, bang, bang, and it's over. And I was like, oh, that was a month.

• 1:24:55Andy Greenwald?

  And I think I have not, I certainly have not earned my place at the commentator's table, but I think even I shot a WhatsApp being like

• 1:25:04Chris Ryan?

  This seems like the wrong strategy.

• 1:25:05Andy Greenwald?

  I do think they should play offense.

• 1:25:07Chris Ryan?

  You don't score one touchdown and go, okay, prevent defense.

• 1:25:10Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, there are teams that have done that.

• 1:25:12Chris Ryan?

  Sure. Yeah.

• 1:25:12Andy Greenwald?

  But it doesn't seem like a winning strategy. What would your, not to shine too bright a light on it, but what do you think your father would have thought about England going to defeat due to the strategical maneuverings of a German?

• 1:25:27Chris Ryan?

  I don't want to comment on how my father would have felt about that.

• 1:25:32Andy Greenwald?

  That specifically.

• 1:25:33Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I mean, who knows? Maybe he would have evolved a lot in the last 10 years, you know?

• 1:25:37Andy Greenwald?

  Old wounds would have healed.

• 1:25:38Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, you know, like after Brexit, he would have been like, no, we're all part of one European family. But like, I think he had some resentment for the Germans.

• 1:25:47Andy Greenwald?

  Sure. For his time.

• 1:25:49Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:49Andy Greenwald?

  The world has moved on. But now, speaking of moving on, you know, that is why I reclaim my Spanish heritage, because, because, because as a fan of Pedro Porro, who of course has played right back for my beloved Spurs since 2022. I want him to succeed. No, that's just in my brain app.

• 1:26:08Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:08Andy Greenwald?

  That's something I've known for, I want to say, days, maybe hours.

• 1:26:13Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:14Andy Greenwald?

  And it just feels good to be at least rooting for one of my guys, you know, in the final.

• 1:26:19Chris Ryan?

  I'm picking Spain for the final.

• 1:26:21Andy Greenwald?

  Even though, I believe McAllister plays for Liverpool, right?

• 1:26:24Chris Ryan?

  That's okay. Victor Munoz, a winger that Liverpool just bought, is a Spanish player.

• 1:26:32Andy Greenwald?

  I know. Tell the camera. I know.

• 1:26:35Chris Ryan?

  Thank you to Kai, Kaya, and Sarah for recording us, producing us, filming us today.

• 1:26:40Andy Greenwald?

  Making us look good.

• 1:26:41Chris Ryan?

  Making us look great. And we'll be back on Monday. Hot D. What else? Maybe you'll have seen The Odyssey. Who knows?

• 1:26:49Andy Greenwald?

  I would like to. But IMAX tickets, hard to get.

• 1:26:53Chris Ryan?

  Just, I have like a phone bootleg you can just check out.

• 1:26:56Andy Greenwald?

  If I watch The Odyssey on iraqgoals.com this weekend on my phone.

• 1:27:00Chris Ryan?

  Dot net. Yeah.

• 1:27:01Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, sorry. Sorry. Well, I just really blew up that other website. Sure, it's gonna be fine. Good luck to your Brasser.

• 1:27:09Chris Ryan?

  You guys have a great weekend.

• 1:27:21Speaker 05

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