The Fall TV We’re Most Excited For. Plus, ‘Lanterns’ E4 and ‘Lioness’ After Dark.

Chris and Andy talk briefly about some of the Creative Arts Emmy Awards that were handed out over the weekend and what they foreshadow for this coming weekend’s Emmy Awards (2:40). Then they preview some of the fall television they’re most excited for, including returning shows like ‘The Lowdown’ and ‘Black Doves’ (14:31) and some new shows like ‘Small Prophets’ and ‘Youth,’ from creator Sharon Horgan (26:04). Then they break down the latest episode of ‘Lanterns’ (44:07) before ‘Lioness’ After Dark (01:03:57). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Video Production and Editing: Jon Jones Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:05Chris Ryan?

  I need sports staff to clear the room.

• 1:08Speaker 02

  Stand up and walk now.

• 1:11Chris Ryan?

  Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at theringer.com. Joining me in the studio, he's the Manhunter, it's Andy Greenwald.

• 1:23Andy Greenwald?

  How long have you known?

• 1:24Chris Ryan?

  Ever since we slept together, all those years ago. Greenwald, great to see you, man, on Labor Day, but we thought, why the hell not? You know, honestly, middle age, what are you gonna do? You know?

• 1:37Andy Greenwald?

  Hang out with the kids?

• 1:38Chris Ryan?

  Nah.

• 1:39Andy Greenwald?

  No, no, no, there's TV to talk about.

• 1:41Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I wanted to talk about lanterns. I wanted to talk a little bit about fall TV. You wanted to talk about the creative arts Emmy.

• 1:47Andy Greenwald?

  It's good that you include me.

• 1:48Chris Ryan?

  Creative Arts Emmy?

• 1:49Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, well, because the way you were framing it suggested that I had plans and Kaya and John had plans, but you were like, I want to talk about lanterns.

• 1:56Chris Ryan?

  No, this is, this is-

• 1:57Andy Greenwald?

  Saddle up.

• 1:58Chris Ryan?

  Greenwald called his own number. He was like, Monday's gotta be the day. I'm a very busy man on Tuesday.

• 2:02Andy Greenwald?

  So true.

• 2:04Chris Ryan?

  So also, like, why go on Tuesday?

• 2:06Andy Greenwald?

  I know. It's like the week's already over.

• 2:08Chris Ryan?

  This is where we belong. And when you look at your podcast feed and it's Bill and Sal, right? And then it's CR and Greens. Greenie.

• 2:16Andy Greenwald?

  Do they say that?

• 2:18Chris Ryan?

  Bill and Sal, they'll call us Greenie.

• 2:19Andy Greenwald?

  They don't talk about us at all. I'm just saying, like, I don't think-

• 2:22Chris Ryan?

  Sometimes.

• 2:23Andy Greenwald?

  No, those are, I love those guys. Don't put me on the spot here. I got no beef.

• 2:29Chris Ryan?

  Here's what I want to do today. I do have a fall television preview. I looked at the next couple of months of releases.

• 2:35Andy Greenwald?

  That's nice.

• 2:36Chris Ryan?

  And I was like, how I want to present this. I could chronologically, I could go hype, hype-

• 2:42Andy Greenwald?

  Fight Beast.

• 2:43Chris Ryan?

  I thought I would just rank them in terms of how much I think you're interested in them.

• 2:47Andy Greenwald?

  This is gonna be a good test on both the fall slate and also your knowledge of me and where I'm at.

• 2:52Chris Ryan?

  Well, what I tried to do is imagine a world in which you were just a mere citizen, flipping channels, you know, scrolling through streaming services, but looking for something a little bit stimulating, a little bit of comfort, but a little bit of, like, provocation, a little bit of, like, artistic boundary pushing.

• 3:11Andy Greenwald?

  Something to spice up my otherwise anodyne existence.

• 3:14Chris Ryan?

  And I think we, as a pod, need it too. Like, we need some juice back, right?

• 3:18Andy Greenwald?

  Do you think?

• 3:19Chris Ryan?

  No, I mean, TV does. Like, I think we've been, we've been having some lols covering the shows we've been covering.

• 3:24Andy Greenwald?

  And by the way, I do want to, I wanted to ask you a Linus question this week.

• 3:27Chris Ryan?

  My silence will continue to be deafening. We're, we're in a bit of a-

• 3:31Andy Greenwald?

  I know, I'm gonna put you on that.

• 3:33Chris Ryan?

  We're in a bit of a dark moment with this show for the last two weeks.

• 3:35Andy Greenwald?

  I'm gonna carve out a little space. I want to ask you-

• 3:38Chris Ryan?

  Please do, we could do Linus After Dark if you want.

• 3:39Andy Greenwald?

  All right, I do.

• 3:40Chris Ryan?

  I don't know anything about why the Emmys are now taking place over two weekends and why there's like a hundred categories got rewarded this past weekend.

• 3:50Andy Greenwald?

  This isn't new.

• 3:51Chris Ryan?

  And I don't think it was aired on TV, to my knowledge.

• 3:54Andy Greenwald?

  It is odd to me that it's not, just because everybody's so desperate for anything, but yes, the Oscars do this too. There's the Creative Arts Awards the weekend before.

• 4:03Chris Ryan?

  But it's not something where they're like, oh, did you see who won the Creative Arts Awards? That means this is gonna happen next week, right?

• 4:10Andy Greenwald?

  Well, no, but I, basically, what it is, is a two-night to dispense with all of the deeply essential and meaningful categories that don't play as well on television, that aren't as prestigious, that the stars aren't necessarily receiving. I think one of the changes, one of the reasons why it's more evident this year is because, for example, the guest star in a television series Emmy has always been given away on this weekend. And like, I feel like between the years of 2004 and 2012, it was just Jean Smart won all of them, before she was Jean Smart, star of Hacks. So it wasn't like a, no disrespect to Jean Smart, but it wasn't a needle-moving sort of pay attention moment. Because of the caliber of actors that come to TV these days, even just to drop in, it's

• 4:55Andy Greenwald?

  a bigger deal. And like, for specifically, guest actress in a television series Emmy went to Betty Gilpin for Widows Bay, along with almost any other category that Widows Bay was nominated for last night, which it won, which sort of previews, I mean, everything from, from score to Christian Springer for cinematography. We already knew, I think, we're gonna do some predictions and previews on Thursday, that Widows Bay was gonna clean up, but Widows Bay is gonna clean up.

• 5:22Chris Ryan?

  It seems like it. It seems like, I think the big question was, does Hacks get this great victory lap Emmys run in comedy? And it does seem like Widows Bay has kind of slingshot Pitt-esque into, like, into the lead position here.

• 5:39Andy Greenwald?

  And speaking of Pitt, Ernest Harding won the highly competitive guest actor in a drama award against many other people on the pit. He played Louis. That was exciting to see. Great congratulations to him. I would say the biggest thing about this award, these awards being handed out over the weekend, is it's really like throwing down the gauntlet, and I'm just gonna say this, like, Katie, Dippled, Hero Marai, people who've been on our show, you can't show up and be like, oh, no, I don't have anything prepared. You guys now, you have like six days, you gotta be ready. Because you're, you're, which camera? Matthew Reese, you're winning an Emmy. You better be ready for it, okay?

• 6:19Chris Ryan?

  Has Matthew Reese ever been like, I'm completely flat-footed, I have nothing charming to say?

• 6:24Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, the camera's on? Which one? Yeah, exactly. I'm just saying, you cannot pretend this isn't happening. Go through your process, be nervous, but be ready, because we're excited to see you win.

• 6:36Chris Ryan?

  Speaking of Hero Marai-

• 6:37Andy Greenwald?

  What's that?

• 6:38Chris Ryan?

  Speaking of Hero Marai-

• 6:39Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, sure.

• 6:40Chris Ryan?

  The director of several episodes of Widows Bay and an essential plank of the creative team there.

• 6:45Andy Greenwald?

  Executive producer, yeah.

• 6:46Chris Ryan?

  I did a Adventures in Moviegoing interview with him-

• 6:48Andy Greenwald?

  Saw that.

• 6:49Chris Ryan?

  Where I talked to Hero for about a half an hour about his favorite films on the Criterion Channel and his life as a moviegoer, and you can watch that on the Criterion Channel now.

• 6:58Andy Greenwald?

  That's great.

• 6:59Chris Ryan?

  Just wanted to let everybody know.

• 7:00Andy Greenwald?

  I'm sorry, I didn't bring that up.

• 7:01Chris Ryan?

  That's all right.

• 7:02Andy Greenwald?

  I like to be the one to celebrate you.

• 7:04Chris Ryan?

  I know you do.

• 7:05Andy Greenwald?

  Whenever possible.

• 7:06Chris Ryan?

  It's really one of your better qualities.

• 7:07Andy Greenwald?

  It's one of my two good qualities. The other one that kind of rocked it was DTF St. Louis. Linda Cardellini, David Harbour won, all told.

• 7:16Chris Ryan?

  Why did, why are Linda Cardellini and David Harbour's categories not on Emmys?

• 7:19Andy Greenwald?

  That was the other example I was gonna give you. I guess to make more space in the, the big night.

• 7:25Chris Ryan?

  For what?

• 7:26Andy Greenwald?

  For speeches, for celebrations of the medium, for like, oh, it's the 25th anniversary of the Angelion sitcom, whatever. Like, I don't know what they're gonna be doing, but they put the actors in a mini-series categories over the weekend as well. So they've already won, good for them, but the, the big totals were, oh, the other sort of very sweet thing was that Rob Reiner won for his appearance on The Bear, season four?

• 7:52Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 7:53Andy Greenwald?

  So he won posthumously guest actor in a comedy Emmy.

• 7:56Chris Ryan?

  That's nice.

• 7:57Andy Greenwald?

  By the numbers, Widows Bay won eight already this weekend, DTF St. Louis won six, The Pit has already landed four, Palm Royale and Margot's Got Money troubles, two shows that are on Apple TV that we do not really cover, won three. But here's the one that I think is gonna be exciting for you.

• 8:13Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 8:14Andy Greenwald?

  A little program called I Love Lucy was recognized with a legacy award, which is a little bit like giving a appreciation award to Oxygen for helping us breathe.

• 8:24Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 8:25Andy Greenwald?

  They really went on a limb with that one.

• 8:27Chris Ryan?

  Was that a special dispensation or was it up against competition?

• 8:31Andy Greenwald?

  Wouldn't that be amazing? This one's legacy matters more. The only other thing I thought was interesting was Spider Noir won five Emmys.

• 8:38Chris Ryan?

  And it got canceled.

• 8:39Andy Greenwald?

  Got canceled right before.

• 8:40Chris Ryan?

  Oh. But that was interesting.

• 8:42Andy Greenwald?

  Did it got canceled?

• 8:43Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I mean, I wonder whether or not that show is maybe expensive, or Nick Cage is busy, or what the deal was.

• 8:50Andy Greenwald?

  I'm gonna answer the first part. Yeah, that show is super expensive. As I talked about, when we talked about it, I can speak from some personal experience. The development of that show spans four, five, maybe almost six years.

• 9:03Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 9:04Andy Greenwald?

  I think-

• 9:05Chris Ryan?

  They had to get it right.

• 9:06Andy Greenwald?

  But, but here's the thing, I genuinely think, from talking to some folks who are involved in it, that they feel that they did a great show, and they are proud of it, and that they told a story, and that it's diminishing, potentially diminishing returns to revisit it and come up with another reason for doing it, rather than maybe circling back up and coming up with another Spider-type show.

• 9:26Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 9:27Andy Greenwald?

  The larger industry thing, this can, this will filter into a lot of our other conversations, I think, in terms of just like a larger industry trend that surprised me, is that the streamers and networks are increasingly concerned about the diminishing returns for everything. Meaning, the second and third seasons of shows are underperforming relative to what people expected them to.

• 9:49Chris Ryan?

  What would an example be?

• 9:50Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, I think you could point to, what are some shows that came back this year? I mean, we were talking about this briefly when we were talking about like Last of Us coming back, which is still, you know, a blockbuster for HBO, but-

• 10:03Chris Ryan?

  Neil Druckmann doing some bang-up PR for Last of Us, season three.

• 10:06Andy Greenwald?

  What's he been doing? I didn't see-

• 10:08Chris Ryan?

  He's just like, I have nothing to do with it.

• 10:09Andy Greenwald?

  Cool.

• 10:10Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. And, and seems to be rather pointed in his, like, don't, don't loop me in on this, like-

• 10:15Andy Greenwald?

  That's sort of my attitude generally about Hero's Adventures in Moviegoing, you know? I wasn't part of it. Good luck with it. I hear good things.

• 10:24Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 10:25Andy Greenwald?

  So it, but it, I get, what I'm trying to say is it's not just the three year gap between seasons that some shows are experiencing. On the, on the 10,000 footest, 10,000 foot view of things. There was a swing away from the expense of launching a show, limited series, big stars and whatever, just for that one hit. And thus we've, we've seen, you know, people trying to crack the code of, is it the pit that comes back every year? Is it task that goes from limited to ongoing? But the pendulum in terms of development is seemingly swinging back to people saying, we'd rather just have limited and.

• 10:59Chris Ryan?

  I feel like the kid in the front of the class. It's, it's bringing it back every year. Like.

• 11:03Andy Greenwald?

  I agree.

• 11:04Chris Ryan?

  Like.

• 11:04Andy Greenwald?

  I agree.

• 11:05Chris Ryan?

  There are so many little things you can see from like the short episode order for something like adults.

• 11:11Andy Greenwald?

  Yep.

• 11:12Chris Ryan?

  Where for fans of that show, that's basically a, a two night experience rather than a 10 to 12 week experience. You can point to shows that inexplicably, like not VFX heavy shows. Taking two, two and a half years to come back. Gary Oldman just talked about this in some Slow Horses promo. Where he's just like, the show works because a bunch of people work insanely hard to make this model that we, we follow work, which is essentially the British model, but still like, it works really well. I want to do our fall TV preview.

• 11:46Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 11:47Chris Ryan?

  For Andy.

• 11:49Andy Greenwald?

  Thank you.

• 11:49Chris Ryan?

  I do, I did also, be since I have you here. And I know Nathan Fielder's work is very important to you. Wanted to ask you about this out of nowhere news that Nathan Fielder and Lance Oppenheim have made a documentary about Elizabeth Holmes. That's coming out next month.

• 12:06Andy Greenwald?

  That Sean has already seen.

• 12:07Chris Ryan?

  That Sean has already seen, and you can see his, his, I assume glittering review. He said, he wrote, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha on Letterboxd. So I assume that means he enjoyed it.

• 12:18Andy Greenwald?

  Well.

• 12:18Chris Ryan?

  Or he enjoyed the spectacle of, of it happening or whatever, but I'm.

• 12:22Andy Greenwald?

  He keeps you guessing. It makes you want to tune into the next episode of the big picture.

• 12:25Chris Ryan?

  I, it looks very intimate.

• 12:27Andy Greenwald?

  It does. So what's the name of this thing? It's called, Everybody Means Nothing To Me. No, that's Elliot Smith. Everybody, all the time now. Look at me, everyone. Come on.

• 12:39Chris Ryan?

  You can see everything.

• 12:41Andy Greenwald?

  I wasn't wrong.

• 12:44Andy Greenwald?

  It's an excruciating trailer.

• 12:45Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 12:46Andy Greenwald?

  But, cool, good. No, I, I want to be honest with you. I want to have like a real, I want to have a real reckoning about this.

• 12:54Chris Ryan?

  Okay, let's do it.

• 12:55Andy Greenwald?

  Many people know.

• 12:56Chris Ryan?

  Have you continued to experience this, this phenomenon that you're having? Of, of, of people thinking that you look like Nathan Fielder? Is that what you're going to say?

• 13:04Andy Greenwald?

  I would say since the glasses went full time. And I started, you know, just doing a lot more core work, you know? No, not that part, but.

• 13:15Chris Ryan?

  You do look good.

• 13:16Andy Greenwald?

  You know what? I think we're both doing great. Thank you.

• 13:20Andy Greenwald?

  I would say it has, it has dissipated a little bit. I think the sting of having someone ask for a photo with who they thought to be Nathan Fielder in front of my younger daughter was, yeah, that was a tough one. That one took some time. But the bigger thing that I have to say is, you know, one can't be cowardly about art. You know, one has to run towards the things that discomfort us, if I may. And I also feel strongly, though I've yet to remedy this, that I'm aware of the massive mistake I made in not engaging with the rehearsal season two. And that I, I must.

• 13:55Chris Ryan?

  You're scared of flying too, or you were. So that was part of it too.

• 13:59Andy Greenwald?

  No, I, I don't love flying. Not scared of it, but you know, there's this thing when you're on an airplane and it kind of like bumps a little bit. What do you call that?

• 14:09Chris Ryan?

  Turbulence.

• 14:10Andy Greenwald?

  Don't love it.

• 14:10Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 14:11Andy Greenwald?

  Don't love that part, but everything else is fine, you know? It's great.

• 14:14Chris Ryan?

  Food.

• 14:15Andy Greenwald?

  Food is delightful. The duct tape, you know, whatever you need. Anyway, so I, just to say that I, I need to address this blind spot. I admit it. I'm okay with it.

• 14:25Chris Ryan?

  This is great. This is growth.

• 14:26Andy Greenwald?

  But.

• 14:27Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 14:28Andy Greenwald?

  But that said, the underlying thing, why I didn't engage really with Nathan for you is because the style of comedy is him inches away from Elizabeth Holmes's face while she doesn't blink. And that's intense.

• 14:40Chris Ryan?

  Well, Batman may have met his Joker in this documentary. I don't know anything about it. There's, there's a lot of buzz about it. There's a lot of speculation about it. And I think that there's going to be an issue with like a cohort of critics who have gotten to see it.

• 14:55Chris Ryan?

  And then I think Lance Oppenheim and Nathan Fielder are relying on their, their secrecy and their, their, you know, being honest to their, whatever forms they had designed to see it, like to not reveal what usually happens with Nathan Fielder's work, which is like major, I can't believe this is happening kind of twist. So I'm very curious to see what that is.

• 15:15Andy Greenwald?

  I, I also, you know, have to stay true to the other previously staked out position, which was super pro Lance Oppenheim, because primetime looks like one of the most exciting movies of the year.

• 15:26Chris Ryan?

  Looks gangbusters.

• 15:27Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah. So I want to just be held accountable.

• 15:31Chris Ryan?

  Let's talk a little bit about fall television before we do the lanterns. So I went through kind of my usual sources to see what was coming out over the next couple of months.

• 15:41Andy Greenwald?

  People want to know who your sources are.

• 15:42Chris Ryan?

  Metacritic.com. And then it's like slash TV release.

• 15:46Andy Greenwald?

  I didn't mean like with the justice department wants to know who's talking to the times. They just thought maybe you had some other ways of getting this information.

• 15:53Chris Ryan?

  Isn't it the Pentagon? They're, they're the ones who are like polygraphing everybody, right?

• 15:56Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, but you know, national security.

• 15:58Chris Ryan?

  That actually comes up in, in Linus.

• 16:01Andy Greenwald?

  I can't wait to talk about, why did we lead with that? Okay, we'll save it. Cause you're, you're worried. You gotta be accountable too.

• 16:08Chris Ryan?

  I'm hearing some footsteps. It's Pete X F. Look, I, I wanted to put together a top 10 list of shows that I thought you'd be fired up about because I think that we have had a weird year. Not you and I, but TV.

• 16:22Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I think we're good.

• 16:22Chris Ryan?

  Where we started out very strong. I thought we had the pit and we had industry. We had a bunch of shows that we've liked, Widows Bay. Furious, like it's, it, the top end is very strong. There have been years where I've been like, man, I already have my top 10.

• 16:39Andy Greenwald?

  Okay.

• 16:39Chris Ryan?

  You know, this year I could probably fill it out, but it's not only been like a little bit fallow, in my opinion, but it's also been uninspiring up until Furious and Widows Bay. Especially up until Furious, I found it to be like, TV has kind of lost its, its way. We have a lot of stuff that feels like it's bloated, a lot of stuff that feels like it's undercooked.

• 17:04Andy Greenwald?

  Do you, I'm going to push, I'm going to dig a little bit here. Now, do you feel like it's because things, there haven't been enough things that surprised or delighted? Or is it that the, the volume of mediocrity has started to drown out the highs?

• 17:17Chris Ryan?

  I think it also could be me. I think also when you put up, like if you, if you spend a ton of time watching something as generally programmatic as weekly television or episodic television, you can start to see some tricks and you can start to see some seams that maybe you don't, if you're just casually watching a show at a time here or there. And that's on me, like, I mean, I have to find my joy, right? Like it, but some of it is like, oh, I know. I'll give you an example.

• 17:47Andy Greenwald?

  Okay.

• 17:47Chris Ryan?

  There are scenes in lanterns, for instance. But I, I could think of a couple of shows like it where there are more, it's more or less a set piece or more or less like a piece of physical action where a character might be getting chased or a character might be trying to get into a building that they're not supposed to get into. And the entire time I'm like, obviously they're getting into the building. Like, how long is this? You know what I mean?

• 18:11Andy Greenwald?

  I see.

• 18:11Chris Ryan?

  So that there's something where I, I think I'm hitting against the maybe limited scope of the visual storytelling, but the over reliance on needing those visuals to be effective. Or something like that. There's a couple of little tenets of that stuff that I'm like, okay, I'm banging my head against the wall a little bit here, but admittedly, I, I, I did this research on the next couple of months and I'm just as excited as you will be.

• 18:36Andy Greenwald?

  It's interesting though, because I think where you're, you're a hundred percent right that TV generally to be successful in a consistent way has to follow certain patterns and it has a certain established rhythm and a relationship with audiences that allow it to flourish in the margins. It's kind of what our conversation was about Furious, where it's a cat and mouse show. The cat and mouse are going to cross paths at a certain point. But it, so in that, it becomes all about how surprising can be the way that they do it? How, like when, how?

• 19:08Chris Ryan?

  The formalism.

• 19:09Andy Greenwald?

  Exactly. And then if those delight, then you stop paying attention to the familiarity of it. But, and anyway, we should get into the list, but I think this specific conversation is relevant to lanterns too. In the ways that it delights and in the ways that it.

• 19:22Chris Ryan?

  It can frustrate.

• 19:23Andy Greenwald?

  Services and frustrates.

• 19:24Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. All right. This is the Andy ranking of the new and returning shows of fall. The reason why I put this together this way is because I'm trying to like, I just wanted to give it some, some scope.

• 19:35Andy Greenwald?

  This is also a little bit like Chris GPT. Like you could have done my columns for me at Granland.

• 19:39Chris Ryan?

  I don't even, I don't even have to change the letter. It could just be.

• 19:42Andy Greenwald?

  I know.

• 19:43Chris Ryan?

  See, well, I guess you would have changed the letter.

• 19:45Andy Greenwald?

  Which letter?

• 19:46Chris Ryan?

  Well, you know how like Bill was doing like chat GBT?

• 19:48Andy Greenwald?

  I hadn't heard about that.

• 19:49Chris Ryan?

  But he accidentally, yeah. Anyway.

• 19:53Chris Ryan?

  So the number one, two and three shows that are, I have ranked here are all shows that are returning.

• 19:59Andy Greenwald?

  Okay.

• 20:00Chris Ryan?

  I have the low down season two as our number one show of the fall.

• 20:04Andy Greenwald?

  So exciting.

• 20:04Chris Ryan?

  I have Slow Horses, season six, and I have Black Dove, season two.

• 20:09Andy Greenwald?

  This is going to be a great fall.

• 20:11Chris Ryan?

  These are.

• 20:11Andy Greenwald?

  Stop there.

• 20:13Chris Ryan?

  An interesting collection of shows to talk about together because obviously they're all genre shows that are a genre that we care about a lot. Detectives and spies. Sometimes kind of both.

• 20:23Andy Greenwald?

  Sometimes.

• 20:23Chris Ryan?

  And.

• 20:26Chris Ryan?

  They are examples of the varying ways in which seasonal television has succeeded and failed in terms of like giving us reliable thrills. I don't, I cannot wait for Black Dove's season two. It has been a while.

• 20:40Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 20:41Chris Ryan?

  Since Black Doves was on. Shout out Joe Barton, I know he made Amadeus, I'm sure he's been very busy, like, we love Joe Barton. I was saying like-

• 20:47Andy Greenwald?

  No, no, no, I-

• 20:48Chris Ryan?

  I don't remember why they are the way they are.

• 20:51Andy Greenwald?

  No, but this is, but I would say this, um, this is, this is a continuation in a way of the praise we were giving the show two years ago when it premiered. That for me, the joy of Black Doves is Ben Whishaw sadly drinking champagne with a shotgun next to him and then going to rescue Keira Knightley or vice versa. I a hundred percent don't really remember the conceit of what organization they belong to and where they stand vis a vis Interpol or British politics.

• 21:18Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, and who did what to whom to get them there, right?

• 21:20Andy Greenwald?

  But I think the sign of a well-made show like that is that I don't actually care. I can't wait to be back in that world at Christmas time. But, but it is an interesting, again, it's another interesting conversation about what we look for in these TV shows and I don't know, I think I would have accepted anything, you know, for, when, when we were waiting for a new season of Mad Men to come back. The, I would have accepted any kind of like context shaking.

• 21:44Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 21:44Andy Greenwald?

  Or, and, but, and I would have been happy with the characters because we love them, but that was a different relationship where-

• 21:50Chris Ryan?

  Black Doves is like, I want my program back.

• 21:52Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, with Mad Men, I was like, I see that they have disbanded the previous firm and I know Lane Price is essential in this forming of the second one. Now I am prepared for the season to begin.

• 22:01Chris Ryan?

  When will we find out when Dick Mitten and Whitman and Dom Draper like converge? But like Black Doves, I'm just kinda like, please make things go boom and have like cool dinners. Uh, I'm really excited for the show to come back. Sam Riley and Dev Campbell are joining the cast for season two. For Slow Horses, season six, uh, some seasons work better than others. This season is based on Joe Country and Moscow Rules, the two McCarran novels.

• 22:28Andy Greenwald?

  I find that really interesting that they took two books because-

• 22:31Chris Ryan?

  They did.

• 22:32Andy Greenwald?

  There is a, there are a finite number of books, right? Unless he, or is he, he's continued-

• 22:36Chris Ryan?

  I think he's gonna keep writing them, but I think, I, I would bet, I think they're already shooting season eight. I'm gonna guess, I think they're already shooting eight. Usually by six, usually at the end of a season, they have a trailer for the following season, right?

• 22:50Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, because they, I think their production schedule is such that they shoot, they're shooting in the summer, so they would have been shooting season seven this summer and wrapping up just as the season six premieres.

• 23:01Chris Ryan?

  Oh, you think six and seven is a block and then they'll do-

• 23:03Andy Greenwald?

  No, it's not a block, it's just that they shoot in the summers and they premiere in the fall, the following falls, to give them enough time.

• 23:08Chris Ryan?

  Okay, well-

• 23:09Andy Greenwald?

  But they're probably writing, uh, eight to your point.

• 23:12Chris Ryan?

  I'm gonna, I'm gonna guess they're gonna do 10 seasons.

• 23:14Andy Greenwald?

  That's incredible.

• 23:15Chris Ryan?

  I mean, I guess, I know, I mean, I think that there's plenty of material, there's also novellas that they could mess with.

• 23:20Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 23:21Chris Ryan?

  Um, I'm very excited for this season.

• 23:24Andy Greenwald?

  If they did 10 seasons in 10 years, they should get the I Love Lucy Legacy Award.

• 23:29Chris Ryan?

  Well, I think they can do it for as long as Oldman wants to do it.

• 23:32Andy Greenwald?

  For sure.

• 23:32Chris Ryan?

  I think it's, it's a staple of Apple's programming at this point. And it's like the thing that they have that people, I couldn't tell, like, I was looking at Twitter like a week ago or something and it was just like a tremendous amount of Slow Horses tweets that felt in the Lane Brown clipping zone of like-

• 23:50Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 23:50Chris Ryan?

  Accounts I'd never heard of being like, the way she looks at him and it's like, you know, like Catherine Standish looking at Roddy, you know? But I am very excited for season six, that's September 17th, I believe.

• 24:04Andy Greenwald?

  Also, this season has the return of, of, of, what's her name, Olivia Cook.

• 24:10Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 24:11Andy Greenwald?

  Right? Now, I, I feel like, again, speaking about being accountable, I appreciate this, I think you let me off the hook for this, maybe, which was generous because, because I think you have read some of the novels. I have not read any of McCarran's novels and I really, really remember, again, there have been so many seasons since, but I really feel like I staked some ground on this podcast being like, well, she'll be back. But like, I thought-

• 24:34Chris Ryan?

  Did you?

• 24:34Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, I felt pretty strongly that, that it was misdirected. This was me like, I know how the show works, three episodes in. Uh, I was glad that in the long arc of history, I was right-

• 24:46Chris Ryan?

  You didn't think it was a Kings, Mayor of Kingstown situation?

• 24:47Andy Greenwald?

  No, but I, but when it just-

• 24:49Chris Ryan?

  She was also not Kyle Chandler at that point, this is before House of the Dragon.

• 24:52Andy Greenwald?

  And then she went to do House of the Dragon, so maybe she was on avail, I don't know what the characters like in the books, but I thought it was cool that they, it, it's just an impressive thing in that you can really, you can do it if you come back every three years, but it feels more exciting when you have a show that is relentlessly pushing forward, but continues to carry its own history with it. I think that's, I think it's exciting.

• 25:11Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, me too. Uh, Lowdown, season two, I can't possibly explain how excited I am for this.

• 25:16Andy Greenwald?

  Name the new cast members.

• 25:17Chris Ryan?

  Tommy Lee Jones and Betty Gilpin.

• 25:18Andy Greenwald?

  Emmy Award winner Betty Gilpin.

• 25:20Chris Ryan?

  Yes, Tommy Lee Jones, I believe, is playing Lee's father.

• 25:23Andy Greenwald?

  Incredible.

• 25:24Chris Ryan?

  Uh, and Betty Gilpin, I believe, is, uh, the owner of the alt weekly that he writes for, but I'm not sure. In any case, this seems like the kinda show that will, if it was already like fully taken flight in the first season, it's going to be like already up and running, like this is a show screaming out for, you already know and love these people, here's a new case and here are a couple of new characters.

• 25:49Andy Greenwald?

  For people who are listening to us talk about this, who haven't watched the first season yet, stop the podcast and watch the first season. But one of the things that I think we got away from in praising its development and delivery of the season one plot was that one of the most remarkable aspects of it was that it launched with a complete, uh, galaxy of lived-in locations and characters. That one of my favorite memories of the show is the early season interactions between Ethan Hawke's character and a character played by Macon Blair, who's a director-

• 26:24Chris Ryan?

  Yep, Blair.

• 26:24Andy Greenwald?

  Who also, um, he directed that movie that was called Shitheads and is now called Idiots, that just came out. And that character, or, or the other people on his street, um, what's that kid's name? Um, Josh Fadem, Fadem, I said his name wrong, sorry, um, the neighbors.

• 26:38Chris Ryan?

  The record store owner.

• 26:39Andy Greenwald?

  Who owns the record store. Like, they don't quote unquote matter to the plot, but it is so rare to have a show that arrives with a fully lived-in world to enjoy. And I think it, I'm just so glad for many reasons that it was gonna continue, but for a show that could move forward but also spread out, it's just a, it's, it's, it's speaking to the theme of having something recurring.

• 27:00Chris Ryan?

  Those are the top three.

• 27:02Andy Greenwald?

  Those are strong top three, I think it's gonna be a great fall.

• 27:04Chris Ryan?

  Now I have a bunch of new stuff. And I, I think you're gonna be kinda like, oh damn. So number one-

• 27:10Andy Greenwald?

  Okay.

• 27:11Chris Ryan?

  I can't say that I am super familiar with Mackenzie Crook's work since The Office and I guess Pirates of the Caribbean.

• 27:17Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 27:17Chris Ryan?

  Um, he played Gareth on the UK office. He has also become a show creator over in England. He made a show called The Detectorists, um, that I never saw. And now has a show that I think I have received at least a dozen emails about over the course of the year when it was airing in England about how we needed to find this show, how we needed to talk about it, how we were gonna love it. It's called Small Profits, Profits.

• 27:40Andy Greenwald?

  All right.

• 27:41Chris Ryan?

  Uh, P R O P H E T S, Profits.

• 27:44Andy Greenwald?

  Oh.

• 27:45Chris Ryan?

  And it is, uh, six episodes, it's coming to Apple on October 7th and it stars, um, Pierce Quigley, who is also in The Detectorists, uh, who is still distraught, he plays a man named Michael, who is still distraught seven years after the disappearance of his girlfriend. So like any of us would, this is the log line, he turns to alchemy, specifically the creation of magical spirits who can predict the future. Uh, Cook co-stars in the Manchester set series, as does Michael Palin.

• 28:16Andy Greenwald?

  Michael Palin.

• 28:17Chris Ryan?

  And several other folks, Paul Kay, Sophie Willen, um, I, I, I don't know anything about it, the trailer seems delightful, weird and cozy.

• 28:27Andy Greenwald?

  And how is it coming to us?

• 28:28Chris Ryan?

  Via Apple Television.

• 28:30Andy Greenwald?

  Is it?

• 28:30Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, that's why I was like, oh, Apple, Apple thought enough of this to, to, to put some coin up for it.

• 28:35Andy Greenwald?

  That sounds great.

• 28:36Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, so I was like, this is cool, new, new, maybe a new voice for us to cover.

• 28:41Andy Greenwald?

  Mm-hmm.

• 28:42Chris Ryan?

  The next one that I have here after Small Profits is, um, Tiptoe, which is a new show from Russell Davies, who made years and years-

• 28:51Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, I know about this, yeah.

• 28:52Chris Ryan?

  And it's a sin. This is Alan Cumming, David Morrissey to-

• 28:57Andy Greenwald?

  As neighbors, right?

• 28:58Chris Ryan?

  As neighbors, as, as feuding neighbors.

• 28:59Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 29:01Chris Ryan?

  Sign me up.

• 29:02Andy Greenwald?

  I, but is it, is it set particularly during any sort of troubles?

• 29:05Chris Ryan?

  Not to my knowledge, troubles as in-

• 29:07Andy Greenwald?

  I don't mean the troubles, but I mean more like UK-

• 29:10Chris Ryan?

  I didn't get any deep detail about that, but Alan Cumming and David Morrissey play feuding neighbors, it's five episodes, it's on Starz.

• 29:16Andy Greenwald?

  You know, I love Alan personally and professionally. I also know about the show because they were doing press together for it.

• 29:24Chris Ryan?

  Uh-huh.

• 29:24Andy Greenwald?

  And I think I saw it through Alan's Instagram and just absolutely delightful because they've known each other for 30 years and they were talking about like, and they were so cozy and friendly and I think they play vicious antagonists in this, but it was very sweet to hear them talk about how they had that level of trust. They could do that because they know that they love each other, it's nice.

• 29:43Chris Ryan?

  It doesn't seem to be, uh- Existing in any kind of like historical moment, other than I think, according to Wikipedia, anti LGBTQ rhetoric on social media leads the neighbors to become enemies.

• 29:58Andy Greenwald?

  It could be anytime, but I think.

• 30:00Chris Ryan?

  It could be any.

• 30:02Andy Greenwald?

  It's timeless sadly.

• 30:03Chris Ryan?

  It's timeless content.

• 30:05Andy Greenwald?

  Russell Davies, I mean, he's been on the pod. We had a great talk with him about, about it's a sin.

• 30:09Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 30:10Andy Greenwald?

  Also famous for Doctor Who and bringing it back, but.

• 30:14Chris Ryan?

  And Queer's Folk.

• 30:15Andy Greenwald?

  And Queer's Folk. I mean, incredible career, but also such an interesting creator, because he just does his own thing and seems to have what appears to be, I'm sure he would dispute this, but from our perspective, like, like a tenure track position with British Television.

• 30:30Chris Ryan?

  Doesn't he live in like the coolest house in Wales that just like oversees a lock? And, and he writes?

• 30:36Andy Greenwald?

  In my impression, that's most houses in Wales, but it probably is the nicest one. But yeah, he just writes it all himself. But it is like, it's the type of career that we don't really seem to be able to support in America. I mean, maybe David Simon and Pelikanos were the closest and they're like, we do what we do and we do it for HBO when we're ready to do it.

• 30:52Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 30:53Andy Greenwald?

  But his curiosity is, not curiosity, but his, his, the range of what he likes to write about is wider certainly, but always worth checking out.

• 31:02Chris Ryan?

  The next show I wanted to mention is Youth, which is the new show from, oh, by the way, Tiptoe comes out October 2nd.

• 31:08Andy Greenwald?

  Okay.

• 31:08Chris Ryan?

  And in five episodes. The next show I wanted to talk about after that is Youth, which is the new show from Sharon Horgan.

• 31:13Andy Greenwald?

  We didn't talk about the trailer. Good trailer.

• 31:14Chris Ryan?

  Good trailer. And this is, Sharon Horgan is essentially, aside from Bad Sisters, which was clearly like a kind of like, like black comedy, mystery thriller. She's kind of made a career out of chronicling different phases and stages of her life from Motherland, which I adore so deeply. Catastrophe with Rob Delaney.

• 31:42Andy Greenwald?

  Great.

• 31:42Chris Ryan?

  And now Youth, which is about love and sex and death in your 50s. And.

• 31:49Andy Greenwald?

  Couldn't be us, dog.

• 31:50Chris Ryan?

  Looked good. Starts on, on September 20th, eight episodes. The first two go up. It's on HBO and it looked awesome.

• 31:57Andy Greenwald?

  Every episode written by Sharon. Also, did you see how deep the cast list goes? Maybe you saw in the trailer.

• 32:02Chris Ryan?

  I didn't.

• 32:02Andy Greenwald?

  First of all, great to see Rupert Friend. But among the guest stars, recurring stars are the great Harriet Walter, who played the kid's mother on Succession.

• 32:10Chris Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 32:11Andy Greenwald?

  And our number one draft pick, Freddie Fox. Stays working.

• 32:14Chris Ryan?

  Can't lose. The one after that, this is really interesting.

• 32:18Andy Greenwald?

  I guess this is her first HBO series since Divorce, right? Which we didn't really engage with.

• 32:21Chris Ryan?

  We did not really engage with that. In fact, I don't even remember who she was getting divorced from.

• 32:25Andy Greenwald?

  Thomas Hayden Church.

• 32:26Chris Ryan?

  Really?

• 32:27Andy Greenwald?

  Who is now on Tires.

• 32:29Chris Ryan?

  He sure is on Tires.

• 32:31Andy Greenwald?

  Did I tell you that? I don't think I told you this, but you know, I love to do the, the Thomas Friedman style of research, you know, like just boots on the ground, like Man of the People. On my recent flight to Seattle, I would say I had visual, like in my, my field of vision, I could see four other people's screens and three of them were watching Tires, season three.

• 32:52Chris Ryan?

  Was one of them Kaya?

• 32:52Andy Greenwald?

  Has Kaya been watching?

• 32:55Speaker 04

  I have.

• 32:55Chris Ryan?

  Oh.

• 32:56Andy Greenwald?

  You convert Kaya?

• 32:57Speaker 04

  You, Andy, converted me.

• 32:59Chris Ryan?

  She knew I was already.

• 33:01Andy Greenwald?

  She's hopeless, but, but it was my, I'm the swing voter. Wow. That's nice, Kaya. Thank you.

• 33:07Chris Ryan?

  I need your help on this one.

• 33:08Andy Greenwald?

  Okay.

• 33:09Chris Ryan?

  For one thing, something's going on cosmically. I'm opening my heart to animation.

• 33:13Andy Greenwald?

  What?

• 33:13Chris Ryan?

  I, well, first of all, Blue Eye Samurai is coming back imminently.

• 33:17Andy Greenwald?

  You like that more than I did too, right?

• 33:19Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. But I, another one grabbed my eye. Another animated show grabbed my eye. Get Ero? Euro?

• 33:25Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, Get Jiro.

• 33:26Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Jiro, is it just the J is hard?

• 33:28Andy Greenwald?

  The J is hard in Japan. You were thinking more of a Greek or even a Spanish.

• 33:33Chris Ryan?

  Sure. Animated, anime style.

• 33:36Andy Greenwald?

  That's Tony Bourdain's graphic novel.

• 33:39Chris Ryan?

  Based on Anthony Bourdain's graphic novel about a dystopian future where chefs are super celebrities. Among the voice talent, Titus Welliver and Justin Kirk. Starts October 3rd.

• 33:51Andy Greenwald?

  On what channel?

• 33:52Chris Ryan?

  Adult Swim slash HBO. And it looked really cool. Did you read this graphic novel?

• 33:57Andy Greenwald?

  I think there was more than one volume, I think. I read the first one. Yeah. I mean, it did combine a lot of my interests.

• 34:02Chris Ryan?

  The Age of Apocalypse, Battleworld.

• 34:05Andy Greenwald?

  Sushi. Pretty much me for a period of my life.

• 34:09Chris Ryan?

  Here's the last batch.

• 34:13Andy Greenwald?

  Okay. Now, when you say the last batch, they are lower on the list because you think they will be less appealing to me or they're more wild cards?

• 34:18Chris Ryan?

  As we get, the lower we get, the more I'm like, this could go one of two ways.

• 34:22Andy Greenwald?

  And, and are you, are you including like East of Eden in this or because we already talked about that?

• 34:26Chris Ryan?

  I didn't include East of Eden. I mean, like, I, I think it looks lovely, but I didn't know if you were gonna be like, stop the presses, East of Eden's on.

• 34:33Andy Greenwald?

  And what about the new Pride and Prejudice? No?

• 34:35Chris Ryan?

  I didn't have that on here.

• 34:36Andy Greenwald?

  No thoughts for that?

• 34:36Chris Ryan?

  I guess I don't really know you.

• 34:38Andy Greenwald?

  It's fine. It's fine. It hurts.

• 34:40Chris Ryan?

  I was like, does this new Pride and Prejudice, is this Emma Corrin is in this one?

• 34:43Andy Greenwald?

  It's Emma Corrin and Jack Loudon. And Dolly Alderton wrote it. And Olivia Colman plays mom.

• 34:52Chris Ryan?

  And when's that coming out?

• 34:53Andy Greenwald?

  Soon. First week of October, I think.

• 34:55Chris Ryan?

  Not on Netflix. Well, you can remove either Vision Quest from your list?

• 35:00Andy Greenwald?

  No, no. Keep talking.

• 35:01Chris Ryan?

  Vision Quest is just weird. This, honestly, it could be the last MCU show. I'm not even sure. I have it down here because you and I care so deeply about what happened in Sokovia that to see.

• 35:12Andy Greenwald?

  Some have forgotten.

• 35:13Chris Ryan?

  See James Spader come back as Ultron or in some capacity?

• 35:18Andy Greenwald?

  Isn't he just coming back as James Spader in a soundstage, living inside of Paul Bettany's mind?

• 35:23Chris Ryan?

  Is he?

• 35:24Andy Greenwald?

  I believe he is himself. Like, I don't think he is voicing a very expensive drawing of a killer robot.

• 35:31Chris Ryan?

  Wait, what do you mean? He's coming back as himself?

• 35:33Andy Greenwald?

  Have you not seen the, the pictures of the show? They've released them, maybe only to select press.

• 35:37Chris Ryan?

  There's a picture of James Spader just being Blacklist James Spader.

• 35:41Andy Greenwald?

  Google James Spader, Vision Quest. Let's, can we get the camera on Chris's screen or is that illegal? I think this should be part of it. My understanding of the series is that because Vision has been through some tough times post Sokovia, this is kind of like a Herman's Head type series.

• 35:55Chris Ryan?

  As Ultron in human form in Vision Quest.

• 35:58Andy Greenwald?

  I thought that's why you brought this up. It's like a Herman's Head for robots. And inside of his head, ever since they defeated him, I guess, James Spader, James Spader has been living in his head, which does sound provocative.

• 36:12Chris Ryan?

  Well, it's Ultron in human form. I don't know if James Spader looks like that all the time.

• 36:16Andy Greenwald?

  Looks like what?

• 36:17Chris Ryan?

  Well, he's got a giant beard. He looks like he's a mastodon.

• 36:19Andy Greenwald?

  I, I'm going to say something. I'm gonna, you know, I like to play it close to the vest. I like to play it safe. My guess is that Ultron in human form looks like whatever James Spader looked like the day they got him to set. And they're like, okay, I guess we're doing this.

• 36:34Chris Ryan?

  So I'm, I'm curious about this. I'm also curious about where this leaves Marvel Television.

• 36:41Andy Greenwald?

  Here's, here's why I want to go super hard at Vision Quest. How many episodes is it?

• 36:47Chris Ryan?

  A hundred and five.

• 36:48Andy Greenwald?

  Truly.

• 36:49Chris Ryan?

  I just wrote down Vision Quest, bullet point, finally.

• 36:53Andy Greenwald?

  That's me. Here's how I think we should handle Vision Quest. I'm, I'm gonna propose something to you. I think we should take Kevin Feige at his word with this because my understanding, when it was introduced at the D20.

• 37:05Chris Ryan?

  Eight episodes streams weekly.

• 37:07Andy Greenwald?

  What's it called? D23 or something?

• 37:08Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 37:10Andy Greenwald?

  I feel like he, I feel like someone said, Vision Quest is essential viewing for Doomsday. So I think we need to cover this show like it's the second season of The Sopranos. I think we need to devote more airtime and more brain power to the show than anything else on our, on our slot.

• 37:30Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 37:31Andy Greenwald?

  Do you know what I mean?

• 37:31Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 37:31Andy Greenwald?

  Like rigorously cover this text.

• 37:34Chris Ryan?

  I don't even want this clipped for social. I want it clipped for personal use so that when you're like, episode two of Vision Quest, I'm out.

• 37:41Andy Greenwald?

  I won't be out. I won't be out. You're more likely to be out than me.

• 37:46Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. This is, this is a character whose charms have escaped me.

• 37:49Andy Greenwald?

  How many episodes of Secret Invasion did you watch?

• 37:53Chris Ryan?

  I think most of it.

• 37:57Andy Greenwald?

  Okay. How many episodes?

• 37:58Chris Ryan?

  Cause I kept waiting for it to be like the Parallax View and it wasn't. Yeah.

• 38:04Andy Greenwald?

  In retrospect, like, how do we feel about, now that we know?

• 38:07Chris Ryan?

  That the Russos lie to us.

• 38:09Andy Greenwald?

  Constantly.

• 38:09Chris Ryan?

  Chronically.

• 38:10Andy Greenwald?

  But, but also the, just that like, you know, more of the backstory of like how challenging these things were to make and then also how little they paid off in terms of their larger story architecture. What are your feelings this many years on of Captain America and the Winter Soldier? No, it wasn't Winter Soldier. It was Falcon and Winter Soldier.

• 38:28Chris Ryan?

  Well, I mean, I think it would be a very challenging endeavor, but one could re-watch all of Marvel's TV efforts to see where, like, if there's any hidden gems, if there are any things that we charged too harshly.

• 38:44Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 38:44Chris Ryan?

  If in fact, the things that were good were not actually as good as we thought they were in the moment. You and I have been pretty much off the sauce since Wandavision. You know, I think we had-

• 38:55Andy Greenwald?

  One Division was the first one.

• 38:56Chris Ryan?

  No, but I mean, I don't think we've like heralded-

• 38:59Andy Greenwald?

  Loki.

• 39:00Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, Loki.

• 39:00Andy Greenwald?

  Loki ruled. Loki was really good.

• 39:02Chris Ryan?

  Oh yeah, that's right. You were crazy about Loki.

• 39:04Andy Greenwald?

  Crazy about Loki. S1.

• 39:06Chris Ryan?

  S2, do you, what was your, what was your relationship to S2?

• 39:10Andy Greenwald?

  Nah.

• 39:11Chris Ryan?

  Nah.

• 39:11Andy Greenwald?

  Miss me with that. I mean, look, who doesn't love a protagonist slowly becoming an all-seeing story tree at the center of the multiverse? Like, that does appeal to me. But I just have, I do have some fond memories. I don't know why I have this nostalgia. It's kind of COVID-y. But like, watching Falcon and Winter Soldier and then seeing all the lines that were ADR'd off characters' backs while they were changing the plot in real time?

• 39:30Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. I mean, like, they were, they were-

• 39:32Andy Greenwald?

  It's wild.

• 39:33Chris Ryan?

  They were weaving it in mid-air. It was, it was something else.

• 39:35Andy Greenwald?

  It was beautiful. And, and, um, you know, Wyatt Russell's John Walker-

• 39:39Chris Ryan?

  I enjoyed John Walker.

• 39:40Andy Greenwald?

  Was important.

• 39:41Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Um, I'm gonna read you for the last two here. I'm gonna read you a log line. And then you tell me if you're interested in this.

• 39:48Andy Greenwald?

  Okay, hold on, let me, alright.

• 39:50Chris Ryan?

  Set in 1977.

• 39:52Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, just like us.

• 39:54Chris Ryan?

  An Indianapolis man named Tony Christus, uh, Caritzis, uh, takes a man hostage and phones a local radio reporter and demands to be interviewed on the air. The, uh, the man who takes the hostage, the hostage taker, is played by Giovanni Ribisi.

• 40:09Andy Greenwald?

  Hmm.

• 40:10Chris Ryan?

  The radio reporter is John Hamm. The television show is American Hostage, which is Sean Ryan and Eileen Myers, who did The Night Agent, and Sean Ryan did The Shield. It's their effort at creating a, um, like a Ryan Murphy anthology style.

• 40:28Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, there could be a different American Hostage every week.

• 40:30Chris Ryan?

  Every week.

• 40:30Andy Greenwald?

  Is this an-

• 40:31Chris Ryan?

  Every season. Every season.

• 40:32Andy Greenwald?

  That's what I mean, sorry.

• 40:32Chris Ryan?

  This is an anthology show.

• 40:33Andy Greenwald?

  Is this an original hostage-taking, or is it a historical hostage-taking?

• 40:36Chris Ryan?

  Historical. It's a true story. It also stars Muriel Enos and William Jackson Harper. It's on MGM Plus.

• 40:43Andy Greenwald?

  Hmm.

• 40:43Chris Ryan?

  Don't even know if you have that. And it starts September 20th with a two-episode premiere. Just based on this cast-

• 40:50Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, good cast.

• 40:51Chris Ryan?

  The Ribisi Hamm piece.

• 40:54Andy Greenwald?

  Ribisi doesn't, doesn't get out of bed for just anything these days.

• 40:57Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 40:57Andy Greenwald?

  And you've always been a big Giovanni guy.

• 40:59Chris Ryan?

  Well, you see him around, and he's always got a cool camera.

• 41:02Andy Greenwald?

  You see him around?

• 41:03Chris Ryan?

  He's around. He's around in UCLA.

• 41:04Andy Greenwald?

  He's in these streets? He's outside?

• 41:05Chris Ryan?

  And I just love his, his dedication to, to keeping, like, old cameras up and working. Like, I think he works on, like, a bunch of, like, IMAX cameras and Vista Vision cameras and stuff.

• 41:16Andy Greenwald?

  This is a whole LA I don't know about.

• 41:17Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, and he shot Strange Darling, that, that horror thriller from a couple of years ago. He was a DP.

• 41:22Andy Greenwald?

  Have you invited him on the podcast?

• 41:24Chris Ryan?

  No, I think he went on Big Pick for Strange Darling with JT Mulder. But, this seems cool.

• 41:29Andy Greenwald?

  Is, is Hamm's part, I mean, I haven't seen a trailer. You're hitting me with this cold. I didn't even know about the show.

• 41:35Chris Ryan?

  I don't think there has been a trailer, but he plays a 1970's radio reporter, local radio reporter in Indianapolis.

• 41:40Andy Greenwald?

  Does he leave the radio station, or did he shoot out his whole season in, like, a week in a room? Because that would be, that would be very economical for the series going forward.

• 41:48Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 41:48Andy Greenwald?

  If the person the hostage taker calls can just, can just wrap out in a couple of days.

• 41:54Chris Ryan?

  The gallant Garrett Delahunt, "I'm nude in my house for the entire season of Lanterns." Uh, I think this looks cool. And then this other one, I just can't believe I'm, like, reading this actual log line. Uh, this is called Kill Jackie, and it's on AMC.

• 42:09Andy Greenwald?

  Okay.

• 42:09Chris Ryan?

  Our, our dearly beloved AMC.

• 42:12Andy Greenwald?

  Still waiting for that call.

• 42:13Chris Ryan?

  Uh-

• 42:13Andy Greenwald?

  To run it.

• 42:14Chris Ryan?

  The show stars Catherine Zeta-Jones.

• 42:18Andy Greenwald?

  Okay.

• 42:18Chris Ryan?

  Uh, it's about a one-time drug smuggler, now art dealer, who gets targeted by a group of assassins, and then she turns the tables by going after the assassins.

• 42:26Andy Greenwald?

  What?

• 42:27Chris Ryan?

  It feels kind of late 90s. It's based on a Nick Harkaway novel, who is John Le Carre's son.

• 42:32Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 42:33Chris Ryan?

  And it co-stars Daniel Ings.

• 42:35Andy Greenwald?

  What? And this has to be a co-pro.

• 42:37Chris Ryan?

  Looks very late 90s, early aughts, kind of tongue-in-cheek comic thriller.

• 42:46Andy Greenwald?

  Okay.

• 42:46Chris Ryan?

  I'm sure you're right. It is a co-pro. It comes out October 2nd. And it looks okay. It looks cool. Ron Perlman's in it.

• 42:54Andy Greenwald?

  Kill Jackie, Daniel Ings. It says it's Amazon Prime.

• 42:58Chris Ryan?

  This says AMC.

• 43:00Andy Greenwald?

  Are the, maybe the walls are collapsing. Interesting. Okay, well-

• 43:05Chris Ryan?

  AMC Plus.

• 43:07Andy Greenwald?

  AMC Plus, Amazon.

• 43:08Chris Ryan?

  Oh, uh, it's a Prime Video original outside of the United States. That's what you're, you're thinking of.

• 43:13Andy Greenwald?

  I see.

• 43:13Chris Ryan?

  Sorry.

• 43:14Andy Greenwald?

  Okay. Well-

• 43:15Chris Ryan?

  There's a lot of, there, we're coming to it over there.

• 43:17Andy Greenwald?

  And it's Freemantle, which is an international company, but, interesting.

• 43:21Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 43:21Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, I think two things. One of the things that you mentioned is a wild card. Will take flight, and we'll be super into it. But I also think we should, in the modern parlance, hold space for an 11th show that we don't know about, that will furious, furious or the gold us.

• 43:38Chris Ryan?

  I have it.

• 43:39Andy Greenwald?

  You have it already?

• 43:40Chris Ryan?

  I already have it.

• 43:41Andy Greenwald?

  God, you're good at this.

• 43:41Chris Ryan?

  High Value Target: The Hunt for Saddam Hussein, starring Joel Kinnaman, eight episodes on TNT. We're fucking back.

• 43:49Andy Greenwald?

  Dude.

• 43:49Chris Ryan?

  We're fucking back on TNT. Get Inside the NBA out of my face. And let Kinnaman hunt Saddam.

• 43:57Andy Greenwald?

  Was, was he successful?

• 43:58Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. He was, obviously.

• 44:01Andy Greenwald?

  Eventually?

• 44:01Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 44:02Andy Greenwald?

  How long was his hunt?

• 44:04Chris Ryan?

  Eight episodes.

• 44:05Andy Greenwald?

  I would say, again, I'm not a close scholar of the Middle East, but-

• 44:08Chris Ryan?

  This starts next week, by the way.

• 44:10Andy Greenwald?

  I do, I'm ready. I don't think-

• 44:11Chris Ryan?

  Or this week.

• 44:13Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, they're waiting. We always like to get involved in-

• 44:15Chris Ryan?

  It's September 13th.

• 44:16Andy Greenwald?

  We like to get involved in Iraq right after September 11th. So that's perfect. Very respectful. I, in my, you know, again, my memory might be faulty. I'm not a scholar of the region. But I believe that between the years of, like, 1970 and his end, Saddam Hussein was in these streets and bunkers, but like, he wasn't really hiding. You know, he was like, "I'm running things," you know? So what was Joel's, like, pursuit?

• 44:40Chris Ryan?

  He apparently is the guy who's like, he's a Saddam expert, and he briefs Bush about it. Like, I think he's going back and forth.

• 44:47Andy Greenwald?

  A real hero.

• 44:48Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 44:50Andy Greenwald?

  He's like, "Mr. President, as I was saying on September 10th, hunt for this guy."

• 44:57Andy Greenwald?

  "I'm interested in a version of this story."

• 44:59Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 45:00Andy Greenwald?

  Look, you're all ashamed now.

• 45:01Chris Ryan?

  No, not.

• 45:03Andy Greenwald?

  You're a bit abashed. You were a little too eager.

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• 47:08Chris Ryan?

  Do you want to talk about Lanterns, episode four?

• 47:11Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I do, I do.

• 47:12Chris Ryan?

  I'll tell a funny story to start us off here.

• 47:14Andy Greenwald?

  I was hoping you would. I think this is gonna be good for us.

• 47:16Chris Ryan?

  People make mistakes. I'm not too big to admit it. And when we, you know, we have a couple of screeners for Lanterns, although I believe-

• 47:23Andy Greenwald?

  I think we're-

• 47:24Chris Ryan?

  I think this, we're cut off.

• 47:25Andy Greenwald?

  We're cut off, dude.

• 47:25Chris Ryan?

  Uh, I accidentally watched four ahead of three, and I thought it was good. Because four starts at the end of two.

• 47:34Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, and this makes sense. Sequential television.

• 47:36Chris Ryan?

  And there were a couple of things that threw me off. One, I was like, "You guys are treating Laura Linney's arrival incredibly like Loki."

• 47:44Andy Greenwald?

  Pretty chill about this.

• 47:45Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I was like, "That's Laura Linney, and I didn't meet her yet, and yet, it seems like I'm supposed to know who she is and what she's doing here."

• 47:51Andy Greenwald?

  Were you leaning in at that point, or did you feel like it was a little bit aggressive to introduce a guardian as Laura Linney in a motel room?

• 47:59Chris Ryan?

  I thought it was surprising.

• 48:00Andy Greenwald?

  Okay.

• 48:01Chris Ryan?

  Uh, I also thought it was surprising when, when Sunday's episode aired, this past Sunday's, or, or the Sunday, the third episode aired, actually.

• 48:11Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, oh, yeah.

• 48:11Chris Ryan?

  People were like, "Holy shit, what a portrait of an American family." And I was like, "What?"

• 48:18Andy Greenwald?

  We thought they, the family that paints each other nude?

• 48:20Chris Ryan?

  And then it was like, you know, Jasmine Seifus-Jones is so incredible as John's mom. And I was like, "Was she in that episode?"

• 48:26Andy Greenwald?

  On the phone?

• 48:26Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, like, when she just was like, "John, is that you?" So I was like, "What am I, was there like a stinger post-credit scene?" I went and looked, nope, because it wasn't up.

• 48:37Andy Greenwald?

  Correct.

• 48:37Chris Ryan?

  And I had missed, missed, mis-watched them.

• 48:39Andy Greenwald?

  Okay.

• 48:40Chris Ryan?

  It did, though, in a strange way, speak to this sort of, like, unique way that they're kind of setting up this early part of the season. To go flashback episode three, to go standalone episode almost, that's kind of one, from one perspective, is kind of a fascinating choice. And, look, I thought that there were parts of, of this episode that sang, and I thought that the twists are interesting. I'd like to talk to you about some of the detective work.

• 49:08Andy Greenwald?

  Mm-hmm.

• 49:09Chris Ryan?

  But, but tell me what you thought about episode four.

• 49:11Andy Greenwald?

  I, well, first of all, I did watch it thinking of your mishap.

• 49:15Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 49:15Andy Greenwald?

  And I thought that was very interesting for the reasons you just said, which is, if you expected the show to kind of be basic paint-by-the-numbers, this does pick up exactly where the other one left.

• 49:26Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 49:27Andy Greenwald?

  I, well, since I was going into this episode with that in mind, I was even more grateful for the, for the, the breadth of three, um, to add more context to it, to get us out of Rushville, to, to, to make a larger world than this and one investigation. I think that the, my, my sense is, my confidence is high that when the season is done, whether we come out loving it, liking it, respecting it, that the scaffolding of how they built a very complicated machine is going to be impressive.

• 49:59Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 49:59Andy Greenwald?

  And I think that the flashback episode where it fell was really clever and really good. And as you said, not playing, playing with, it's always the relief pitcher metaphor, but playing with delivery and velocity is one of the more powerful tools in the showrunner arsenal. So I thought that was really well done.

• 50:14Chris Ryan?

  The density of information in this episode, I think, is pretty high, uh, both in terms of this opening Sinestro sequence.

• 50:23Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 50:24Chris Ryan?

  Um, which, which I thought was excellent, but was rather long, you know, like it's a, it's a, it's a pretty, if you're, if you're like a casual fan and don't know much about the Green Lanterns in general and who the fuck Sinestro is, um, it's, it's a pretty like heady scene to watch. Can you give me any context to it? I know you're a DC guy.

• 50:47Andy Greenwald?

  Well, no, I, I think, I, I'm on the other side of it. I love those scenes and I love their, um, their almost austerity. Like, I think the reference that I would imagine was in the room was, um, uh, a different Manhunter, the Michael Mann Manhunter, or any Hannibal Lecter movie.

• 51:05Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 51:05Andy Greenwald?

  Um, that that's how they were going to frame it and that, you know, as the other characters talk about Sinestro and Hal and that relationship, I think the subtlety of not just his red skin tone and his little slight alien ears, but you understand that this is a father figure and a friend who he loves, but can no longer trust. And like, that's enough. Um, I think deeper hardcore Green Lantern core heads know that Sinestro's betrayal involves the color yellow, which is the color of fear and letting fear into your heart and how that defeats green, which is all about bravery and fearlessness. And I think they're doing a relatively smart job of keeping that, um, up here, you know,

• 51:49Andy Greenwald?

  like in the sort of intellectual sense of like, we understand that it is both, uh, heroic, but also deeply fucked up to be like, I'm not afraid of anything.

• 51:57Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 51:57Andy Greenwald?

  And that what happens when you let the fear in and where it, where it, where it leads you. So I thought that, I thought that was really artful. I thought also in the spirit of, um, the Colonel in Boogie Nights, who I know was a hero of yours, both on screen and off.

• 52:10Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 52:11Andy Greenwald?

  You know, he's a man who knows what he likes. Let's put it that way. Right?

• 52:14Chris Ryan?

  Sinestro is or the Colonel?

• 52:15Andy Greenwald?

  No, the Colonel is.

• 52:16Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 52:16Andy Greenwald?

  Um, and, you know, to that point, like, I love a what the fuck Linda LaFian, uh, set piece. So.

• 52:26Chris Ryan?

  Zoe's satellite death.

• 52:29Andy Greenwald?

  No.

• 52:29Chris Ryan?

  Oh.

• 52:30Andy Greenwald?

  The fucking slaughterhouse.

• 52:31Chris Ryan?

  Oh, yeah. That was very, very, very Lindelof.

• 52:34Andy Greenwald?

  There's, there's this thing, and we've been talking about it. And again, because we know him, like, I think we're, we're, we're doing a forensic read of it that maybe is maybe more, we assume more.

• 52:42Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. I mean, even last week, we were ascribing a lot of like Damon writerly, like, sort of themes in Damon Lindelof's past work that may have been Vanessa Bader Kelly or Chris Monday or Tom King or whatever, you know?

• 52:56Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah. I, I don't want to miss, I don't want to like to, to apportion the credit incorrectly. But again, I do think that there is a step that is a hallmark of Damon's shows and rooms that has filtered into other rooms successfully, which is you reach a point in the breaking of the episode where they're going to go detective. They're going to go after the satellite. If you think about it purely like A to B to C. And then I just have this belief that there's a moment, a pause, and maybe the pause is a day, or maybe it's three weeks where no bad ideas in a brainstorm, like what is the most visually what the fuck we could do here to earn more of what we want the show to be? And a high-tech slaughterhouse where everyone's ignoring them and then a cow comes through a Lynchian

• 53:41Andy Greenwald?

  hellmouth into a white room and then is gorily and bloodily vivisected for a pile of steaks? Pretty good.

• 53:50Chris Ryan?

  Is that, or like portal that the cow walks through the same thing that John goes through to get to his interview?

• 53:57Andy Greenwald?

  Possibly. I mean, it, it's similar. And so, you know, if you're watching the show on a different level, you could be like, oh, does that mean that the Manhunter's technology also led John?

• 54:06Chris Ryan?

  His guardian technology.

• 54:07Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah. Or that, yes, or that John is being set up or something. If there's a deeper, another card to turn. Cool. But also in that moment, it was like Lynch directing, what was the first George Lucas movie that THX?

• 54:20Chris Ryan?

  Uh, yes, THX 138.

• 54:21Andy Greenwald?

  That one, like some weird visual crossover of that language and ending in the room with a guy who is not an alien. Like, I just, I just really, really.

• 54:30Chris Ryan?

  That sequence is awesome.

• 54:31Andy Greenwald?

  I just vibrate to that. Like, I just think it's so, it, when they do that in a show that has so many mechanisms like spinning, it just feels like a moment we can throw your hands up like you're on a roller coaster and enjoy it. So I, for that alone, I really, really liked the episode. But I have other things to say. Well, no, but please, you next.

• 54:51Chris Ryan?

  No, I wasn't, it wasn't, we, we don't have to go trade back and forth. I'd love to know, what, what did you think of the Zoe stuff?

• 54:57Andy Greenwald?

  My concern when you ask me stuff back to back to back is that I think there are people who single channel our podcast and only listen to you. And I'm worried then there, it's just going to be silence.

• 55:07Chris Ryan?

  I remember when we used to do Zoom recordings, uh, back in COVID.

• 55:11Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah. And we would record our own audio and send it in.

• 55:13Chris Ryan?

  I don't talk that much.

• 55:14Andy Greenwald?

  Hmm. Did, did, did someone else? Or did, um, was it because you were more, you were worried about like aerosols?

• 55:22Chris Ryan?

  I was more reflective back then, you know? Uh, I wanted to ask about the Zoe stuff because.

• 55:28Andy Greenwald?

  What do you think? Yeah.

• 55:29Chris Ryan?

  I thought the Port of Jagannathan scene, her, her scene with, with Aaron Pierre in the motel room was very good.

• 55:37Andy Greenwald?

  Okay.

• 55:37Chris Ryan?

  I, I liked it a lot. I like this idea of, um, if you take it at face value, that everything is, all the, all the little blinking lights are pointing to her as the Manhunter.

• 55:49Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 55:50Chris Ryan?

  Uh, that the, you know, Sentinel of Destruction could also come in the shape of a, a great healer and a great, um, you know, it would be like, why should we revolt against the Manhunter? He's like cured cancer, cured cancer. Nobody's sick here.

• 56:07Andy Greenwald?

  His body looks amazing.

• 56:08Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. My body, I'm cut, you know? Uh, great.

• 56:11Andy Greenwald?

  He probably does a lot of protein and, and weight training at that age.

• 56:16Chris Ryan?

  I suppose this is a question about whether or not, the thing I wanted to ask is whether or not this is, do you feel like this is a lot of work to come up with a red herring?

• 56:25Andy Greenwald?

  Well, I.

• 56:27Chris Ryan?

  Cause it seems like everybody is just like, obviously.

• 56:30Andy Greenwald?

  It's her now.

• 56:30Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 56:31Andy Greenwald?

  But what's weird is that the red herring was everything else up to this point. And we have reached the halfway point of the season. I think that so far, and we'll see how it plays out. So this is not me predicting a reaction to it, but I will say that the, um, the Zoe, the Zoe thread has probably to me been the least successful part of the series. Nothing to do with the performer, but you know, the, the relationship between her and John doesn't make any sense to me, other than it's what people wanted them to do, writers needed them to do. So that when she says, this is the last time, I'm like, why? I don't understand why it was the first time. I don't really understand why they are attracted to each other, why someone who is so buttoned up would be relatively

• 57:14Andy Greenwald?

  reckless in this case. Um, and maybe in, you know, with a brain trust like this, my questions are the questions, maybe these are the questions we're meant to be asking. But everything was so, um, signposted for it to be her, including the way the camera lingered on the bracelet that she left for whatever reason before she got.

• 57:34Chris Ryan?

  Vaporized.

• 57:36Andy Greenwald?

  Potentially vaporized.

• 57:37Chris Ryan?

  So.

• 57:37Andy Greenwald?

  So, so it, and, and then in the, if you're stacking red herrings, them going to chase this guy Hammond and then meeting a guy and then being told that someone else, only for them both to say to each other, we both know who it is though, really, right?

• 57:51Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 57:51Andy Greenwald?

  And then my next question is, is this the most interesting thing Jon Stewart's ever done in his pre-programmed life, which is have sex not once, but twice.

• 57:59Chris Ryan?

  With a man.

• 58:00Andy Greenwald?

  With a, with a, um, pansexual, intergalactic, omniscient being.

• 58:04Chris Ryan?

  And to what extent is it part of, or in a kind of continuum of behavior and cause and effect that Hal interrupting his assassination attempt, getting him dishonorably discharged?

• 58:21Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, right.

• 58:22Chris Ryan?

  Sending him in this path to where he's going to become like an architect, but then becomes.

• 58:26Andy Greenwald?

  Who's pulling all these strings?

• 58:27Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Who's pulling the strings? I end.

• 58:31Chris Ryan?

  And you know, the culpability of his parents, I'm like, is this a guy rebelling? Is this a guy doing deep undercover detective work? Like, what are we seeing here? Um, and I, I think that the, the third episode gives the fourth episode so much more color when it comes to Hal jumping out of the car in the last moment and allowing, allowing John to crash into a light pole.

• 58:53Andy Greenwald?

  You, you think he'll be okay?

• 58:54Chris Ryan?

  I do think he'll be okay, but I just think it's like, for most of this episode, these guys are actually like seemingly getting along. Like, I mean, they're at least going along with each other.

• 59:03Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 59:04Chris Ryan?

  Um, now there's like the whole, like, just take the ring and say the oath and, you know, that stuff. But I, I, I think it was like a, a handy, good, middle season detective episode that had some really good human moments.

• 59:16Andy Greenwald?

  And it had some really good meta-human moments, like the idea of them being cornered by thugs with guns that shoot darkness.

• 59:25Chris Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 59:26Andy Greenwald?

  That is a pure comic book idea.

• 59:27Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 59:27Andy Greenwald?

  And I loved it and I loved seeing it. I wondered though, the other feeling I had to this episode was that it was funnier and funnier in the sense of like, it was, they made it, they made a point of underlining

• 59:40Chris Ryan?

  It was more buddy cop stuff.

• 59:41Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, he's like, did you just make a joke? Because John does make a joke at one point. And then there's a moment where they both say, set it off is a good movie, you know?

• 59:47Chris Ryan?

  That's right.

• 59:47Andy Greenwald?

  And there's the whole line about, you know, superheroes don't really lock the door and jazz, this can't be good. And it's a lot more buddy cop. Um, and I enjoyed that. This, this is a weird thing where like, I'm not complaining about how clever the script was or how much more enjoyable it is for Aaron Pierre and Kyle Chandler to be playing off of each other as opposed to playing like almost on top of one another. But, um, the, the, the subsequent feeling that you didn't have because you watched them out of order was that it, there was an element of, we got the serious stuff out of the way. Now we can be goofy again.

• 1:00:17Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. I mean, it almost felt like a season two episode. You know what I mean? At times where you'd be like, and now these two guys are investigating like a crime and this is their patter, but you know, you can trust that they, they love each other.

• 1:00:28Andy Greenwald?

  It's also the, the nature of a show that wants to tackle real world issues where I think they were correct to more soberly state the facts in terms of John's role as a black man on earth and also intergalactically and his relationship to his family. That wouldn't necessarily have been the time for a lot of, you know, wink, wink jokes. But the fact that like, it went so, if the switch flipped so dramatically from one episode to the next, you just felt the difference.

• 1:00:53Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I thought that like, we were asked to kind of consider the idea at the end of the second episode that John can manifest lantern-like powers independent of the ring, right?

• 1:01:03Andy Greenwald?

  Or he can continue to.

• 1:01:04Chris Ryan?

  Or continue to, right? That he is more special than he may even know, right? Like that, it's not just he's been training his whole life to do this, but he may have some innate gifts that other beings in the galaxy have taken note of. And then in the third episode, we just go back to his kind of, not we just, it was an extraordinary like effort to go back and kind of establish why this character is behaving the way he is, why Hal Jordan might be behaving the way he is and what context brought these two people together. I don't know that I came out of the fourth episode and was like, and then this is what we learned coming out of the fourth episode about any of these people, but that doesn't necessarily need to happen every episode.

• 1:01:42Andy Greenwald?

  No, I, I, and I continue to feel like I would rather have the more humorous, human Jon Stewart when we can, because I continue to say, to feel that like, the construction of his backstory is really thought provoking and interesting and resulted in an excellent episode. But I don't believe him as a human because of it.

• 1:02:02Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 1:02:02Andy Greenwald?

  I don't believe him. I mean, maybe Joel Kinnaman could do it if he was hunting Saddam Hussein, but nine months in the bush, you know, with one target. It's wild.

• 1:02:11Chris Ryan?

  It is wild.

• 1:02:12Andy Greenwald?

  It's no wonder he jumps into bed with the first step grandmother that he can find.

• 1:02:16Chris Ryan?

  Do you have any other notes you wanted to share before we get, we get into After Dark?

• 1:02:20Andy Greenwald?

  No, I guess I just feel like, where, where are you with this show halfway through? Do you feel like enthusiastic and engaged and eager to see where it goes?

• 1:02:29Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, on a visual level, I look forward to watching it every week and I'm never bored while I'm watching it.

• 1:02:34Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:34Chris Ryan?

  And that increasingly is becoming something I'm very sensitive to. Uh, like just the, do I feel my mind wander? Am I locked in? Do I find the performances charismatic and engaging? Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. So even when I'm like, that scene was wonky or it seemed like that was like gifted to the, this, this revelation was gifted to them in the, in the, to expedite, expedite like the plot. I, instead of like hard work figuring out who the, the Manhunter is, I, uh, I just, I just, I, I really enjoy it, but I do note some differences or some basically, some flaws here and there. What, what about?

• 1:03:16Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I, I'm, I'm loving watching it. I think never bored is a very high praise these days to give. I just like the way it handles these ideas. I like the way that this, this sounds pretty basic, but I like the way Hal Jordan flies. I like the thought that was given to that and what it feels like when he says point in the sky and he's gone. I really like the Sinestro stuff. I, I like a show that can give us an interesting Sinestro and an interesting Sheriff Kelly McDonald in the same episode, that it's not overweighting one versus the other. But actually the thought I had when I was finishing the fourth episode was I do have some regret for not sticking with Penguin. Not because I feel like I missed out on Oz Cobblepot's rise to power, but more specifically,

• 1:03:58Andy Greenwald?

  people genuinely loved that show or really, really liked that show, let's say, right? And after one episode, I think you and I were like, this is very, very well done. And this might be the best version of this, best case, but because it is essentially using the, the trappings of a crime show, but instead of filling it, the, the new, the space created by originality with what something like Furious did, it filled it with DC and Matt Reeves lore.

• 1:04:23Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 1:04:24Andy Greenwald?

  I was okay stepping back. The reason I was thinking of it was, is there a natural cap on these things? You know, that are, that no matter what good intention you're putting into it and how much thought you're putting into an episode like three, you are setting up James Gunn's man of tomorrow. You are dealing with the precepts of, you know, the D C U or the character's history and whatever, and can you overcome them?

• 1:04:47Chris Ryan?

  It's a really, it's an interesting point.

• 1:04:48Andy Greenwald?

  I, I don't. And, and also it's not a bad business model for audiences or for Casey at HBO to be like, I'm going to, you know, spend money and attract talent and make the best series of B pluses we can.

• 1:05:01Chris Ryan?

  This is also a hit, you know?

• 1:05:02Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah. The show is. Yeah, I know, this, I'm not trying to damn it with faint praise. I guess I'm just wondering, can it, there have been moments that have transcended and moments, and not every show needs to.

• 1:05:12Chris Ryan?

  I think the DC shows are working generally. I mean, I, I'm not addicted to them. Like, you know, I watched a bit, probably more than you of Penguin.

• 1:05:21Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:21Chris Ryan?

  And then I think I finished it as well.

• 1:05:24Andy Greenwald?

  Did you? Did you watch more, have you watched, in Peacemaker?

• 1:05:27Chris Ryan?

  I, I, you know.

• 1:05:28Andy Greenwald?

  It's fine.

• 1:05:28Chris Ryan?

  Peacemaker is fun.

• 1:05:30Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:30Chris Ryan?

  Um, I don't think Peacemaker is like the best show I've ever seen, but I definitely like enjoyed what I've watched of it. And then it seems like that Skylar Gisando show, the, the Jimmy Olsen show, like, that's a really good idea for a TV show to have the American vandal guys make a true crime documentary with Jimmy Olsen. Like, that's, that's like, let's take chances with the TV stuff rather than sort of stally going through six episodes only to have a post-credit stinger that somehow links to an Avengers show.

• 1:06:01Andy Greenwald?

  Isn't that crazy though? Like, I know this is incredibly obvious, but I just hadn't been grouping them together in the same way that we group the MCU TV shows. Like when you said DC is working on TV, it, I just was thinking about our jokes about Falcon and Winter Soldier and Vision Quest. Like, oh my God, yes, they're working.

• 1:06:19Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:19Andy Greenwald?

  It is incre, it is entirely successful, especially compared to what Marvel became and what they were trying to do and, and what they didn't even try to do.

• 1:06:28Chris Ryan?

  And I, I don't, I mean, that's not. I don't know if it's all gun. I don't think Penguin is in the gun verse. It's more like the Matt Reeves side of things, right?

• 1:06:37Andy Greenwald?

  And for now.

• 1:06:38Chris Ryan?

  I think predates gun a little bit.

• 1:06:40Andy Greenwald?

  It does. I still wonder if like, the effort of introducing another Batman when you have Robert Pattinson is just like, okay, maybe.

• 1:06:48Chris Ryan?

  Well, if they make one of those like every five years, I don't.

• 1:06:51Andy Greenwald?

  It's gonna be six years, I think.

• 1:06:53Chris Ryan?

  I know, I know. But looks cool.

• 1:06:55Andy Greenwald?

  Well, that's all that matters to us.

• 1:06:57Chris Ryan?

  Um, all right, Lioness.

• 1:06:59Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I gotta ask, okay, can I set this up for you?

• 1:07:01Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 1:07:03Andy Greenwald?

  I, there were just, there were rumblings and disturbances in the force because generally the ambient feedback I get about Lioness is that like, you know, it's all go, brother. Like, everybody's having a great time.

• 1:07:16Chris Ryan?

  All go, like the audience or the people on the carrot?

• 1:07:18Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, yeah. And recently, it's, I've picked up on a sense that there have been some bumps.

• 1:07:24Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 1:07:24Andy Greenwald?

  That people are not as gung ho about some things and maybe the season has taken a turn. And when we last checked in on Jo and her team of bathtub enthusiasts killers.

• 1:07:36Andy Greenwald?

  This show could

• 1:07:38Chris Ryan?

  I had no notes.

• 1:07:38Andy Greenwald?

  You had no notes. You were thrilled.

• 1:07:39Chris Ryan?

  Um, since then, and I talked about it with Van and we were equally like, kind of delighted by the messiness of basically doing two seasons of this show and one where one is, they tried to kill Joe and they missed and then Joe gets her revenge. And then there's also another season where they've kidnapped Joe and are trying to get her out of the country and her lioness team is looking for her.

• 1:08:02Andy Greenwald?

  And those are both happening concurrently this season.

• 1:08:04Chris Ryan?

  They are, and they are like

• 1:08:05Andy Greenwald?

  In two timelines or something?

• 1:08:06Chris Ryan?

  In two timelines. And I would not say evenly distributed and not always clearly demarcated. So some, so in this previous, this episode that just happened on Sunday, there's basically a turn mid, mid-episode where they bring back our Ukrainian Russian double agent.

• 1:08:21Andy Greenwald?

  Oh.

• 1:08:21Chris Ryan?

  Who's living happily in Tulsa, uh, under the name Paige Weaver, where she shops for one and has, uh, like a very Airbnb'd out, you know, furnished house in Tulsa, but she has like one avocado, you know, just for like one, one Ukrainian lady who wants to hang out at night, you know?

• 1:08:39Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, I feel like one avocado would be pretty fucking exciting in Kiev.

• 1:08:44Andy Greenwald?

  You know what I mean?

• 1:08:44Chris Ryan?

  No, that's the breadbasket of Europe, isn't it?

• 1:08:46Andy Greenwald?

  Ukraine?

• 1:08:47Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:47Andy Greenwald?

  Right now?

• 1:08:48Chris Ryan?

  I mean, generally.

• 1:08:49Andy Greenwald?

  Read the news, brother. I know democracy is dead.

• 1:08:51Chris Ryan?

  You should say that.

• 1:08:52Andy Greenwald?

  But.

• 1:08:52Chris Ryan?

  I, for some reason, got served a video of people shopping at a grocery store in Kiev and they were like, don't let them, don't let them fool you. We still got groceries.

• 1:09:02Andy Greenwald?

  They all had six fingers?

• 1:09:03Chris Ryan?

  I don't know why I got served that. Actually, I do.

• 1:09:05Andy Greenwald?

  I know.

• 1:09:06Chris Ryan?

  Cause you're talking about lioness.

• 1:09:07Andy Greenwald?

  And by the way, I am not, just to be clear, before I get aggregated by like pro Putin forces here, I have no opinion or knowledge of the state of Ukraine's groceries.

• 1:09:19Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:20Andy Greenwald?

  It was more that from my experience, all of Europe is avocado mad and they mostly grow them, I believe in Spain and Portugal and maybe in North Africa.

• 1:09:28Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:09:28Andy Greenwald?

  Okay?

• 1:09:29Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 1:09:30Andy Greenwald?

  Kaya, okay?

• 1:09:31Chris Ryan?

  Over the last two weeks, I would say this season has made it a decision, a turn. And that turn is this. The CIA is conducting a domestic purge of our government, higher education and news media to rid them of, I guess, Russian double agents, but kind of not so veiled, like communists. Like it is a weird, like red scare thing where they're like, it turns out like all these people through NGOs and political action committees are getting paid by Russia to indoctrinate our youth and our masses with like woke nonsense.

• 1:10:16Andy Greenwald?

  Brother, that's Senator Tommy Tuberville's campaign literature.

• 1:10:19Chris Ryan?

  I know. I got a show for Tom, if he's not already watching. And I, look, I, I think my, my tolerance level for stuff like that is, is pretty high.

• 1:10:30Andy Greenwald?

  It is. I can't believe that you're blinking on this.

• 1:10:33Chris Ryan?

  There's been a repeated trope on this show this last two weeks where, um, Joe's, uh, heart surgeon, thoracic surgeon husband.

• 1:10:44Andy Greenwald?

  I love him. Dave Anabell.

• 1:10:46Chris Ryan?

  Is in this safe house, uh, on a, on an army base where they've been living since the kidnapping attempt. And he does nothing but watch the news.

• 1:10:54Andy Greenwald?

  Uh-oh.

• 1:10:55Chris Ryan?

  And he's just like, honey, is this what you were talking about? Like with, like these, these professors who are peddling anti-American invective? And she's just like, no, this is only the story that the news wants you to hear. And I, it is, it is like, we've gotten into like episode 400 of the lioness podcast that I'm like, all right, guys, like, it's not as funny as it used to be.

• 1:11:21Andy Greenwald?

  That's amazing. It's amazing. And somewhere I just feel like JD Vance doing the Palpatine meme.

• 1:11:26Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:27Andy Greenwald?

  Where he's just like, yes.

• 1:11:28Chris Ryan?

  They keep, uh, kidnapping people and then really delighting and informing them that they will not be marandized. Like being like, where I'm sending you in Gitmo? I'm like, we're doing Gitmo still? He's like, you're gonna be like listening to Metallica with No Roof for like five years and then I'm gonna come back and ask you again what I just asked you and see if you have like a better attitude about it.

• 1:11:54Andy Greenwald?

  I honestly, that sounds like a kid I knew in high school. Like that is how he spent

• 1:11:57Chris Ryan?

  Miranda?

• 1:11:58Andy Greenwald?

  No, that's how he spent high school. And the teacher will be like, I'm gonna come back and ask you again about fucking of mice and men.

• 1:12:03Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:04Andy Greenwald?

  But wow.

• 1:12:05Chris Ryan?

  Um, so it's tough and

• 1:12:08Andy Greenwald?

  This is a big deal for you to bump on some of this stuff, you know?

• 1:12:11Chris Ryan?

  We now find out that Joe's been kidnapped by Iranian forces. Um, so

• 1:12:17Andy Greenwald?

  It's a hotbed.

• 1:12:17Chris Ryan?

  That's going on. And yeah, this one, this one, I, I, I felt like this was not my favorite lioness episode. Just put it that way. And I think a lot, I think, I think a lot of people have joined me in this journey of watching this somewhat very entertaining spycraft show that also has long stretches of political invective.

• 1:12:40Andy Greenwald?

  Yes. Yeah.

• 1:12:41Chris Ryan?

  Not a lot of self-reflection and

• 1:12:43Andy Greenwald?

  So the show is sort of advocating for some sort of large, like cultural revolution, if you will, where we purge the academics.

• 1:12:50Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:51Andy Greenwald?

  In order to achieve not communism.

• 1:12:53Chris Ryan?

  Not communism.

• 1:12:54Andy Greenwald?

  That's cool.

• 1:12:55Chris Ryan?

  So what would that be?

• 1:12:55Andy Greenwald?

  Let's do it the other way.

• 1:12:57Chris Ryan?

  So, yeah.

• 1:12:58Andy Greenwald?

  Can't possibly see the downside.

• 1:12:59Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, P weird, but hopefully this lady in Tulsa is gonna figure it all out. She seemed to have all the roadmaps for how the Russians exfil.

• 1:13:06Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, I thought you were saying they black bagged her and sent her to Gitmo.

• 1:13:09Chris Ryan?

  No, she just went to Tulsa and witnessed protect, protect, protection. But then they found her because they were like, the Russians are gonna kill her. So we gotta go find her.

• 1:13:16Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, they were like, there's only one woman in Tulsa buying fresh produce, not eating.

• 1:13:20Chris Ryan?

  Not smoking indoors.

• 1:13:21Andy Greenwald?

  Not smoking indoors at the bar next to Sterling's house.

• 1:13:24Chris Ryan?

  But I continue to be seated. I'll, I'll finish the project. You know, Tim Simons recently started watching lioness. So I take my influence seriously.

• 1:13:31Andy Greenwald?

  What I enjoy most is that our buddy Tim is texting you about his journey with lioness.

• 1:13:37Chris Ryan?

  Like 11 PM at night.

• 1:13:39Andy Greenwald?

  But I'm on the thread.

• 1:13:40Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:40Andy Greenwald?

  And every, so I wake up.

• 1:13:42Chris Ryan?

  You haven't answered at all, have you?

• 1:13:44Andy Greenwald?

  I back channel with him. No, no, but like, I don't answer because I wake up sort of bleary eyed and I throw on the glasses and, and I look at the text and it's just like a bunch of texts from 11:13 that's like, Jesus, no wonder Andy doesn't watch this. I don't know what more I can add. I feel seen.

• 1:14:01Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Um, but look, man, we'll, we'll, I'll, I'll give you the finale recap and we'll kind of see where we're at.

• 1:14:07Andy Greenwald?

  Thank you. You know, you're basically doing the, like the, the, the self-reflective DNC deep dive, like what went wrong that they buried.

• 1:14:14Chris Ryan?

  That's right.

• 1:14:15Andy Greenwald?

  You're doing the work and they need to hear what you say from your report from the front lines.

• 1:14:20Chris Ryan?

  Uh, we'll be back on Thursday. We're gonna preview the Emmys. We'll do should win, will win that day. And we'll also talk a little bit about the return of the paper on Peacock and NBC, I believe.

• 1:14:31Andy Greenwald?

  I believe both this time.

• 1:14:32Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. And thanks to Kaya and John for producing us on Labor Day. Hope everybody had a nice long weekend and we'll see you Thursday.

• 1:14:38Andy Greenwald?

  Happy holiday, Marines.

• 1:14:49Speaker 06

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