X-Men Casting Rumors and ‘Spider-Man: Brand New Day.’ Plus, ‘House of the Dragon’ Season 3 Finale.

Chris and Andy talk about the X-Men casting rumors and why they’re excited for the upcoming reboot film (7:05). Then they share their thoughts on ‘Spider-Man: Brand New Day’ (19:09). Later, they discuss the ‘House of the Dragon’ Season 3 finale (44:53). Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of The Watch and so much more! Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Studio Production: Sarah Reddy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Your credit card company is hoping you don't hear this. They're charging you 21% APR interest, making it hard to pay down your balance. A home equity loan from Rocket Mortgage could cut your interest rate by more than half. So you could wipe out your high-interest credit card debt with the equity you've built in your home without touching your current mortgage rate. See how much you could save at rocketmortgage.com. Rocket Mortgage LLC licensed in 50 states. NMLS consumeraccess.org, number 3030. Call 8004-ROCKET for full program details.

• 0:30Speaker 01

  Star Wars: The Mandalorian and Grogu is now streaming on Disney+.

• 0:35Speaker 02

  What are you waiting for? Hop on.

• 0:38Speaker 01

  The must-see galactic adventure comes home on Disney+.

• 0:42Speaker 02

  This is the way. Our only chance is to work together.

• 0:47Speaker 02

  I'm like this kid. Always wear your seatbelt.

• 0:52Speaker 01

  Star Wars: The Mandalorian and Grogu now streaming on Disney+. Rated PG-13.

• 1:05Speaker 03

  I need sports staff to clear the room.

• 1:08Chris Ryan?

  Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at theringer.com. And joining me in the studio is alive. It's Andy Greenwald.

• 1:23Andy Greenwald?

  Which one? Who are you talking to? Which one's who is alive?

• 1:25Chris Ryan?

  In the show House of the Dragon?

• 1:27Andy Greenwald?

  Were you gonna spoil something?

• 1:29Chris Ryan?

  For what?

• 1:29Andy Greenwald?

  House of the Dragon, at the top.

• 1:31Chris Ryan?

  How are we spoiling it?

• 1:32Andy Greenwald?

  Well, if you said who you were talking about.

• 1:34Chris Ryan?

  Well, I assume people listening to The Watch on a Monday have watched House of the Dragon on a Sunday.

• 1:38Andy Greenwald?

  Let's hope so.

• 1:39Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:39Andy Greenwald?

  Look, I'm just excited to see you.

• 1:40Chris Ryan?

  I'm excited to see you.

• 1:41Andy Greenwald?

  You were on vacation, man. I hope it was restful.

• 1:43Chris Ryan?

  Uh, not really. Yeah. Uh, we had a lot of forest fires, a lot of, a lot of god parenting, but it was good, you know?

• 1:50Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:51Chris Ryan?

  Uh, it's good to see you, though. Uh, some housekeeping. Obviously, watch at spotify.com for emails. TheWatchPod underscore Instagram for reels, for viral content. Walkman versus Strokes takes. Um, thank you, Kai.

• 2:05Andy Greenwald?

  How's it feel going over the middle catching those hospital balls?

• 2:07Chris Ryan?

  You know what? It gave me a new appreciation for some of your work.

• 2:11Andy Greenwald?

  Thank you.

• 2:12Chris Ryan?

  That was like some real like, no wonder Julian Edelman is a little bit fucked up. You know, like, it's, it's kinda tough out there, you know?

• 2:21Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I mean, you made the catch, but at what cost?

• 2:23Chris Ryan?

  But I also, I stand by what I said.

• 2:25Andy Greenwald?

  Uh huh.

• 2:26Chris Ryan?

  I, I, it is what it is, you know? And if you don't like it, maybe this isn't the podcast for you, you know?

• 2:31Andy Greenwald?

  I would just say that you chose an interesting target, though, because Julian Casablanca writes songs about his critics now. So you may be immortalized.

• 2:38Chris Ryan?

  Like I said, I don't think I'm gonna rise to that level for him, but that's...

• 2:43Andy Greenwald?

  You are listened to in the halls of power in this nation.

• 2:45Chris Ryan?

  We'll see. We'll see.

• 2:47Andy Greenwald?

  For now.

• 2:47Chris Ryan?

  Like in Mitch McConnell's coffin.

• 2:51Chris Ryan?

  He's like, I gotta hold on. Do you hear what Greenwald said about the Hot D finale?

• 2:57Andy Greenwald?

  Well, he's heard a lot of Spider-Man takes last week, but not ours.

• 3:00Chris Ryan?

  I did see like a great, great fucking image of, it was a do he was like Mitch McConnell is working from home.

• 3:05Andy Greenwald?

  I saw that as well.

• 3:06Chris Ryan?

  And then it was just a view was like, rate my work from home setup. It was a coffin.

• 3:13Chris Ryan?

  Stark, are we doing that? Okay.

• 3:15Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, we're doing it. You're back from vacation unfettered.

• 3:17Chris Ryan?

  Um, so that's housekeeping for how you can get in touch with us. You can watch us on YouTube at the Ringer TV, Ringer dash TV YouTube channel.

• 3:25Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:25Chris Ryan?

  Uh, that we share with the Prestige TV podcast. And you can also watch us on Spotify, or hope you listen to us, or you can listen to us on a variety of podcast networks or platforms. And furthermore.

• 3:36Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 3:37Chris Ryan?

  I think we should just say out front today, it's Hot D and BND. We're doing, um, House of the Dragon finale, a little bit of delayed Spider-Man reaction, and also like some state of Marvel stuff, which I know we've hit a lot recently.

• 3:50Andy Greenwald?

  But it's out there.

• 3:51Chris Ryan?

  Chill out, but it's D23 on Friday. And Andy and I like the X-Men, and we're just gonna talk about it, okay?

• 3:57Andy Greenwald?

  How are you celebrating D23 on Friday?

• 3:59Chris Ryan?

  Uh, I think I might go see the end of Oak Street, which is not a Disney property. Um, the last thing.

• 4:08Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, yeah.

• 4:08Chris Ryan?

  Is that people will be curious to know our thoughts on the episodes of Furious that have aired since we last discussed it. And my thoughts at least on the first couple of episodes of Lioness, season three, although I know that you are a dabbler. You're sort of a lion dabbler, not a lion tamer, but you like to get like, just stick a, stick a foot in the cage.

• 4:28Andy Greenwald?

  I am really, I am really touched by something that we should talk about. That you carried with you in your heart, this idea that I had been keeping up with Lioness out of my devotion to you in your worldview.

• 4:41Chris Ryan?

  I thought it might be just out of your devotion to staying up on the news.

• 4:45Andy Greenwald?

  I thought that was so sweet when you, you faltered when you heard that I hadn't been. So now I feel, that worked on me. So now I feel like I should reengage. Also, I did see a comment from a listener that this whole time, they thought we were saying Linus, and that it was some sort of like dark tinged peanuts reboot.

• 5:02Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 5:02Andy Greenwald?

  Which I'm there for.

• 5:05Chris Ryan?

  Somewhere, someone has taken that meeting.

• 5:08Andy Greenwald?

  For sure. Like, what if Pigpen was the grime that clung to him was actually the grime of society?

• 5:13Chris Ryan?

  Right, or Pigpen, yeah, Pigpen is Taxi Driver, kind of. Uh, so Furious and Linus on Thursday. Today.

• 5:20Andy Greenwald?

  Furious is so good, by the way. I'm, can't wait to keep talking about it. I just wanna, I just wanna, I'm caught up.

• 5:25Chris Ryan?

  You are bursting at the seams to talk about Furious.

• 5:27Andy Greenwald?

  I am so impressed by that show in ways that I think will, might be, I don't know, I'm, I'm eager to try and articulate, but I think it's really, really special.

• 5:36Chris Ryan?

  Good. Linus is on Paramount Plus. This is a necessary segue.

• 5:40Andy Greenwald?

  Sure.

• 5:40Chris Ryan?

  And so is The Agency, which we talked about extensively, season two, uh, the American adaptation of Le Bureau. Uh, its future has been, um, largely kind of undecided, you know, usually something like that, a show that, um, expense to make and of the cast of that quality. You'd expect kind of like an immediate decision after the season.

• 6:03Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 6:04Chris Ryan?

  Um, perhaps Paramount was waiting to see what kind of numbers were coming in in terms of people catching up with the season. But after a couple of weeks of us being like, no news is bad news.

• 6:15Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 6:16Chris Ryan?

  There are some rumblings, uh, both ones that we've heard and also ones that showed up in Leslie Goldberg's Anklar newsletter and that has since been aggregated. And when I went back to Leslie Goldberg's newsletter, I was like, I wonder how people are making this deduction. She basically did a huge survey of everything that Cindy Holland, who runs Paramount TV now.

• 6:38Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 6:38Chris Ryan?

  Has in development and what she's got kind of coming back and what, and in the returning shows category, she did include The Agency, season three.

• 6:46Andy Greenwald?

  And that was aggregated as confirmation of a renewal.

• 6:49Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 6:50Andy Greenwald?

  That is not the case.

• 6:51Chris Ryan?

  That is not the case. But we will monitor the situation.

• 6:54Andy Greenwald?

  I would say, based on rumblings, that I think that there is, that we are not alone in hoping that the show is renewed for a third season. But I do think that there are the kind of negotiations that we usually aren't privy to and the kind of negotiations that we actually would be kind of opaque to us regarding money, et cetera, are happening right now.

• 7:14Chris Ryan?

  I would just have to imagine that Fast Bender has like a window.

• 7:18Andy Greenwald?

  That's the other thing. That's a real, as do the Butterworths, because they're making many other television shows.

• 7:22Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, they're making Laird, they're making Mobland, season two is about to air, they're still supposed to make season three with Hardy coming back.

• 7:29Andy Greenwald?

  And, and it's not just that Fast Bender has a window and a schedule, it's that all actors on returning shows have holds. And, you know, usually, and sometimes they even have like pay or play things in terms of like, they get paid if their decision isn't made by a certain point anyway. So, um, I would say that compared to when we talked about it, you know, and really enjoying the season like a couple of weeks ago, I would say I'm slightly more optimistic that we'll see more of it, but I don't feel comfortable saying that it's, I mean, obviously there's no news, but I don't feel like it's a sure thing and we don't even know who, I would say there's a, there's as good a chance that it would be on another service than it would be on Paramount.

• 8:05Chris Ryan?

  X-Men casting, that was the other thing I wanted to talk to you about, because we're gonna talk about Spider-Man. Um, this is, I know that you and I give the MCU a lot of grief and we have talked a lot over the course of like the run of our show about comic book, film fandom.

• 8:25Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 8:26Chris Ryan?

  Um, which I honestly count myself as a part of.

• 8:29Andy Greenwald?

  Do you?

• 8:29Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. A kind of a blue dog in that, in that coalition, but, but.

• 8:35Andy Greenwald?

  It's a, it's a big tent.

• 8:36Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Uh, I, I have to admit that the X-Men stuff coming out of Spider-Man.

• 8:43Andy Greenwald?

  Mm-hmm.

• 8:45Chris Ryan?

  Is actually like awakening something inside of me a little bit where I am legitimately excited.

• 8:51Andy Greenwald?

  Tell me why.

• 8:52Chris Ryan?

  Well, because of the way that I think I enjoyed Sadie Sink in Spider-Man a lot, spoiler alert. But furthermore, like, I just like the people who are working on it. As far as like the choices that they're making.

• 9:05Andy Greenwald?

  Like Sonny.

• 9:06Chris Ryan?

  And Jake Schreier.

• 9:07Andy Greenwald?

  Jake Schreier, Joanne Calo.

• 9:09Chris Ryan?

  I don't like, I mean, I like them personally, but like, I don't know them personally that well. I just, all I'm saying is that like, it's a cool choice.

• 9:15Andy Greenwald?

  Yep.

• 9:16Chris Ryan?

  And so far, they've cast Kit Connor as Cyclops. Kit Connor, who I saw in an Alex Garland movie Warfare. But I'm not super familiar with otherwise.

• 9:27Andy Greenwald?

  Heartstopper, right? He was one of the stars of Heartstopper.

• 9:30Chris Ryan?

  What was that?

• 9:30Andy Greenwald?

  It's a Netflix, long-running Netflix romantic show based on the bestselling graphic novel series.

• 9:37Chris Ryan?

  I feel like when we talk about, uh, long-running YA Netflix shows, like Chris Hansen's gonna walk in.

• 9:43Andy Greenwald?

  You know how this looks, right? Can we talk about that trailer? That is so sick.

• 9:48Chris Ryan?

  I was wondering if you were like, there's no way I'm gonna watch that.

• 9:51Andy Greenwald?

  I have rarely been as turned on by a trailer as Tony Revellori was.

• 9:56Chris Ryan?

  You know how this looks?

• 9:59Andy Greenwald?

  I saw that trailer and I felt alive. It looks so good.

• 10:02Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 10:03Andy Greenwald?

  And exciting. And he looks, he's just blacking out right now, and I thought that was thrilling. And also instant memes, so.

• 10:09Chris Ryan?

  It's, it's, he's, he, he may need to take himself out of things soon.

• 10:15Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 10:15Chris Ryan?

  Because between Beggars and that, it's like, that's all you see is his face. And now people are going back and grabbing like, this funny interview he did in 2013. And he's just, he's, he's Pattinson run shit right now.

• 10:28Andy Greenwald?

  Also, like, they're also, he's, he is now, did you see the clip of him? Like, he's critiquing his own performance in Twilight?

• 10:35Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 10:35Andy Greenwald?

  Being like how he sat down at a table in one scene and like, did it with his fingers? Cause he thought that was an elegant vampire way to sit? It's just like, he's having a great time.

• 10:44Chris Ryan?

  Kit Connor is Cyclops, Sadie Sink is Jean Grey, Samara Weaving is Emma Frost.

• 10:48Andy Greenwald?

  Now, these are, nothing is official official, but these have been reported.

• 10:52Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 10:52Andy Greenwald?

  As opposed to aggregated as rumors.

• 10:54Chris Ryan?

  Then there are rumors.

• 10:56Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 10:56Chris Ryan?

  That three actors testing for Professor X.

• 11:00Andy Greenwald?

  Wait, there's, there's one, there's two others that are strongly rumored to have been.

• 11:05Chris Ryan?

  I bet I'm gonna get to them. Do you want me to keep reading or?

• 11:07Andy Greenwald?

  No, when you skip Professor X and come back to it and do the other ones.

• 11:09Chris Ryan?

  Uh, Adam Driver as Sebastian Shaw.

• 11:11Andy Greenwald?

  Why don't you skip that one?

• 11:13Chris Ryan?

  Indy Navarrete is Mystique.

• 11:14Andy Greenwald?

  No, skip that one.

• 11:15Chris Ryan?

  Did you tell me?

• 11:16Andy Greenwald?

  Charles Melton as Beast and Kaylee Spahney as Rogue.

• 11:20Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 11:20Andy Greenwald?

  Only because those have been at the, those have been repeated for a very long time. Charles Melton was on a Beast list for a while and then, you know how this looks, right?

• 11:31Chris Ryan?

  To catch a beast.

• 11:34Andy Greenwald?

  And then both of them obviously started.

• 11:36Chris Ryan?

  Chris Hansen walking in, the guy's just solving math problems.

• 11:41Andy Greenwald?

  You're making it sound better.

• 11:44Andy Greenwald?

  No, and what if like, Charles Xavier, an adult, is like, I must recruit special children for my school? And Hansen comes in? There's a lot of opportunity for overlap here.

• 11:54Andy Greenwald?

  Sonny, who show ran Beef, and Melton and Spahney were the co-stars of the season. There's a lot of, uh, there's a lot of Wind Horse Finger tea leaves there that make a lot of sense.

• 12:02Chris Ryan?

  Connected tissue.

• 12:03Andy Greenwald?

  Then there is the more, that, so that, those are, I would feel confident about all of that. And now we're into the realm of like, oh, you're serious about that?

• 12:12Chris Ryan?

  Kevin Feige has been publicly saying that he's been trying to get Adam Driver to join the MCU for years and he keeps rejecting them. The rumor is that he would play Sebastian Shaw.

• 12:22Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 12:23Chris Ryan?

  Who is.

• 12:24Andy Greenwald?

  The Black King.

• 12:24Chris Ryan?

  And I would know him from.

• 12:27Andy Greenwald?

  This is also gonna be my favorite year plus of content. Where they'll be like, oh, the 12, huh? A storyline in which even Iceman is considered one of the most powerful mutants ever to live. I guess. Can you explain it to me, dork?

• 12:39Chris Ryan?

  No. I was setting you up to help our listeners understand.

• 12:43Andy Greenwald?

  It's fine.

• 12:44Chris Ryan?

  The direction this is going.

• 12:45Andy Greenwald?

  Some of you may remember Sebastian Shaw from Kevin Bacon's iconic performance in the role in, what was that, First Class?

• 12:51Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 12:52Andy Greenwald?

  Separate and apart from Driver, it is a cool character to be considering for a reboot. Because it does sound like they are avoiding, at least in the near term, redoing Wolverine and redoing Magneto. Neither of which are obviously important parts of the mythos, but not essential. And they are doing Emma Frost, the White Queen, who started as a villain, partnered with Sebastian Shaw, the Black King. They are the evil mutant overlords of like, kind of a freaky Soho House.

• 13:16Chris Ryan?

  The Inferno? What's their club? Hellfire Club.

• 13:20Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, I, again, I'm not a member, but like Soho House, I imagine has similar vibes. And, uh, then in Grant Morrison's run 25 years ago, Emma Frost became sort of a anti-hero and then full, like, really important part of the team. But the idea of, like, it's, it's more classic Feige to me of like, this is a really strong character that's been on the bench and on the back burner. And we can use better for the story we want to tell. If it's gonna be Sebastian Shaw. Certainly better than casting Adam Driver as like, Mr. Sinister or something ridiculous like that.

• 13:51Chris Ryan?

  The Wolverine part was, I did not know that they were holding off on casting that or holding off on the character arriving just yet. That's interesting, especially because I would imagine Jackman is gonna make several appearances in the upcoming Avengers films.

• 14:06Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 14:07Chris Ryan?

  Now, I have my own thoughts on that.

• 14:10Andy Greenwald?

  Save them for your Substack, what?

• 14:12Chris Ryan?

  I don't think that the Fox X-Men are going to be in that movie very long.

• 14:15Andy Greenwald?

  I think this is one of your strongest and most accurate takes. I, I, I think the first 15 minutes have been put in the trailer, honestly.

• 14:22Chris Ryan?

  That's a, that's a good way of looking at it. But if you get Jackman jacked.

• 14:26Andy Greenwald?

  Well, he'll be in more of it.

• 14:27Chris Ryan?

  You gotta have go snick snick a couple of times, right?

• 14:30Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, but also, don't you think it's gonna be like, oh no? First of all, please can you do that again, just for social? I think, um, I think there's gonna be like, oh, the incursion of the multiverses has claimed James Marsden. And also Kelsey Grammer, somehow.

• 14:45Chris Ryan?

  Not President Wildcat again!

• 14:48Andy Greenwald?

  Somehow Hugh Jackman has returned.

• 14:50Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 14:51Andy Greenwald?

  I don't think that's gonna be an issue.

• 14:54Chris Ryan?

  Okay, so.

• 14:54Andy Greenwald?

  But as you know, as a superfan, canonically Wolverine was not an original member of the X-Men. Actually, you know, made his first appearance in a Hulk comic.

• 15:04Chris Ryan?

  Oh, I didn't know that.

• 15:05Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 15:05Chris Ryan?

  I didn't know that.

• 15:06Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 15:06Chris Ryan?

  I don't really need to see his whole like, uh, super soldier, Canadian, like skeletal replacement thing. I think I got that, yeah.

• 15:16Andy Greenwald?

  You're good on that.

• 15:17Chris Ryan?

  But like, it'll be cool when they finally do cast Robert Pattinson as Wolverine, that'll be awesome.

• 15:22Andy Greenwald?

  You'll be very happy. There, there's other rumors, I think, based on some like, like, like the, the deep dork web where they're like, well, Daphne Keen will be a part of this cast as X-23. And I'm like, okay, you've lost me, even me, okay?

• 15:35Chris Ryan?

  And you think it's cool not to have Magneto?

• 15:37Andy Greenwald?

  I think, I mean, I.

• 15:39Chris Ryan?

  We gotta play the long game, right?

• 15:41Andy Greenwald?

  Let's, let's do the Professor X casting thing, because then I think my answer to it's cool not to have blank is actually my answer to why I think this Sadie Sink reveal and gave me a lot of confidence in this movie.

• 15:52Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 15:52Andy Greenwald?

  So let's, let's put a pin in that.

• 15:54Chris Ryan?

  So the Professor X rumors circle now around Bill Skarsgard.

• 15:59Andy Greenwald?

  Mm-hmm.

• 16:00Chris Ryan?

  People will remember as Pennywise from the Ed films, um, and as.

• 16:04Andy Greenwald?

  He's kind of always a freak, right?

• 16:05Chris Ryan?

  I can't remember what, who, what was his name in John Wick 4?

• 16:09Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, did he have a cool name?

• 16:10Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, he did. He was Marquis Vincent Bissette. To something. And.

• 16:17Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, that's a cool name.

• 16:19Chris Ryan?

  He.

• 16:19Andy Greenwald?

  De Grammont.

• 16:21Chris Ryan?

  De Grammont. Bill Skarsgard, Christopher Abbott, who folks may remember from Girls. But is now kind of like an established and highly, like, critically, like, adored indie film and stage actor in his intervening years. And Tom Pelfrey, beloved Tom Pelfrey from Ozark and Task, uh, are all being tested for, have been tested for, have read for.

• 16:44Andy Greenwald?

  The most recent, and I don't know if any, I mean, who knows about any of this? But the most recent reporting, um, from Jeff Snyder was, Pelfrey's out.

• 16:51Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 16:53Andy Greenwald?

  But I don't know if we can hold stock in any of this, but there you go.

• 16:56Chris Ryan?

  You gotta shave the head.

• 16:58Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, although McAvoy didn't shave the head in the first.

• 17:00Chris Ryan?

  No, I know.

• 17:00Andy Greenwald?

  Movie.

• 17:01Chris Ryan?

  But that was.

• 17:01Andy Greenwald?

  Then he did, and then it looked very silly.

• 17:03Chris Ryan?

  Yes. And Pat Stewart just will not let that chair go.

• 17:06Andy Greenwald?

  No, he pried out of his fingers, cold, dead fingers.

• 17:10Chris Ryan?

  But I think that's cool to go for a very young, like, this is a young cast, that's a young Professor X. They, they can grow old together.

• 17:21Andy Greenwald?

  You know how this looks, right?

• 17:26Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, it's right there.

• 17:30Chris Ryan?

  It's good to be back.

• 17:31Andy Greenwald?

  I would say.

• 17:32Chris Ryan?

  I was like, kinda like, is it good to be back?

• 17:34Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, come on, you missed it. I, I, we can just, like, there's probably a couple of other things to touch on, but like, why not say it here?

• 17:44Andy Greenwald?

  Can we just drop the audio? It's fair use, right?

• 17:49Andy Greenwald?

  Before we talk about Spider-Man, my main takeaway from that film.

• 17:52Chris Ryan?

  It really is the thinking man's pause.

• 17:54Andy Greenwald?

  It is, finally. They, they took that joke from us.

• 17:57Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, sure.

• 17:58Andy Greenwald?

  You know?

• 17:58Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 18:01Andy Greenwald?

  My main takeaway, and this is, you know, your mileage may vary on whether this is a good takeaway from a massive Spider-Man movie, was it gave me faith in what Marvel was going to do with X-Men, because of the, the way that they introduced Jean Grey, first of all, the caliber of the actor and the performance, instantly I was like, she's awesome, and she's a star, and she, she has the charisma to hold this movie as a villain.

• 18:21Chris Ryan?

  Did you get to her Stranger Things seasons?

• 18:23Andy Greenwald?

  The first one.

• 18:24Chris Ryan?

  Did Sadie sing Stranger Things seasons?

• 18:25Andy Greenwald?

  The first one, yeah. Um, but I had not seen, I, I was not as familiar with her work.

• 18:29Chris Ryan?

  And you hadn't seen her iconic running up the hill moment, Ben?

• 18:32Andy Greenwald?

  No, nor did I see her in, was it John Proctor plays the villain on stage?

• 18:36Chris Ryan?

  No, my, my wife adored that performance.

• 18:38Andy Greenwald?

  Everyone did.

• 18:39Chris Ryan?

  She thinks it's like, like, the greatest thing she's ever seen, like, was Sadie sing on that.

• 18:43Andy Greenwald?

  I think that's awesome. So they, so already they were like, working from a place of confidence, but I think the idea of introducing them as kind of, you know, potentially, not just feared and misunderstood, but maybe actively hated as terrorists for their behavior and their actions, was, it's not radical. There have been chapters of X-Men history that have done that, but I thought that was an interesting and confident commitment for the beginning of that story inside an existing universe that also already has superheroes.

• 19:13Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 19:14Andy Greenwald?

  Because I think people have said this for a while, that one of the blessings, one of the many blessings that have been bestowed upon Kevin Feige, was actually not having the rights to everyone, because it allowed some focus, because the idea of some superpowered people are heroes.

• 19:29Chris Ryan?

  But no mutants.

• 19:30Andy Greenwald?

  And some are gross and weird. It's like that meme of the person calling HR at her desk, depending on the two people showing up, like, that is hard to square. So this movie actually did a lot of labor, I would say that's true generally about the movie, but it did a lot of labor to differentiate heroic heroes from anti-heroes.

• 19:47Chris Ryan?

  I thought it introduced what is the central thesis of X-Men comic books that makes them so powerful for so many generations of readers and viewers, is like, that idea of like, difference, and that idea of like, being rejected by society for your difference.

• 20:03Andy Greenwald?

  And being hunted and feared.

• 20:04Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, and like, like, I think that they articulated that really well in a Spider-Man movie, which we'll talk about now. So this is obviously spoilers for what will probably be the most popular movie in the world this year.

• 20:16Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 20:16Chris Ryan?

  Uh, with Dune 3 and Avengers: Dune's Day, uh, receipts still waiting to come in in December, but outpacing The Odyssey.

• 20:25Andy Greenwald?

  And, and out-earning, uh, Endgame.

• 20:28Chris Ryan?

  Astonishing. You know, I was just having this conversation with a couple of, of friends on a text thread the other day about like, trying to explain obsessions, or even to count for the movie obsessions popularity.

• 20:41Andy Greenwald?

  Who's on the text chain?

• 20:42Chris Ryan?

  Uh, Sheil, um, Jalen Brown.

• 20:47Chris Ryan?

  John Cruck.

• 20:48Andy Greenwald?

  Choose carefully. It's fine.

• 20:51Chris Ryan?

  Mitch McConnell.

• 20:51Andy Greenwald?

  I've been very busy. Yeah?

• 20:55Chris Ryan?

  No, we were just talking about like, you know, obsession, really good movie. It's astonishing that it made half a billion dollars, you know, and how do you account for that? Uh, I kind of feel similarly about the Spider-Man movie, which I really liked.

• 21:09Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 21:09Chris Ryan?

  But I'm also like, this is the biggest movie of the year. Interesting. Like, there's not, um, to me, a, like,

• 21:21Chris Ryan?

  it, it's not like a run out and tell your friends how important it is that they see this superhero movie.

• 21:26Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 21:27Chris Ryan?

  But I do think it's a testament to the goodwill that the franchise.

• 21:30Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 21:31Chris Ryan?

  Over many iterations, and specifically the Tom Holland franchise, has built up that like, there is a repeatable experience people are having in the theater when they go see this movie, and you kind of come out with a little bit of a pep in your step, whether or not you think it's like, Dark Knight good or not. Like, you're still kinda like, damn, that was like, kind of fun to watch, and also a little bit surprising here, and a little bit thoughtful there.

• 21:58Andy Greenwald?

  Well, the level of quality of that franchise is really remarkable, over, over the three iterations, and particularly of this one. I would say that this might not even be like, this usually doesn't fall into our, um, bailiwick of coverage, but like, it, it, people are seeing a Tom Holland and Zendaya movie as much as they are seeing a Spider-Man movie. I say that from my own household experience, where my kids loved it and wanted to see it opening weekend, but I think the emotional engagement, especially for my 13-year-old, is like, almost entirely like these absolutely beloved and, you know, adorable, generally celebrities.

• 22:34Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 22:34Andy Greenwald?

  And, and the continuation of their story, and it was actually, it, it did my jaded heart good to see that I do think the reaction, I'm sure there are, there's a percentage of the audience, which is globally enormous, who are like, oh, I, I really liked the, you know, Daniel Dustin Cretton's like renewed commitment to physics when Spider-Man swings into Scorpion really kept me glued to my seat, but really, the fact that the, that the moments of tension in the story are, are, is she gonna remember that they love each other or not?

• 23:03Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 23:04Andy Greenwald?

  And that the movie essentially punted on that for future movies, was incredibly impactful. And so you get to see in real time, like, a collision of some of the biggest movies of the last few years, like, it, weirdly, and again, I, I think I'm with you in the sense that I'm like, not like Jason Bateman in Arrested Development, but like, her about this movie, only because as a movie, if we're gonna talk about it by its parts, I thought it was fine to good. I don't think it was like, earth-changing, but it does seem to unite the same fandom that went to see Infinity War and Endgame with the fandom that 30 years ago went to see Titanic, in terms of like, I wanna see the love story of our time play out.

• 23:41Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 23:42Andy Greenwald?

  That is an incredible, um, Venn diagram, if you wanna be a successful, if you wanna be successful at the box office.

• 23:49Chris Ryan?

  Did you detect any of the, Tom Holland has hit pause on Spider-Man because he was so deeply changed by working on The Odyssey, that he wanted to bring some of the lessons of filmmaking that he learned from Christopher Nolan and apply it to Spider-Man?

• 24:06Andy Greenwald?

  The moment that made me think of that quote was when, early in the film, when Peter goes into a bodega and he sees Ned for the first time, and he's like, oh my god, my past has come and intersected with my present. It's a feeling probably Odysseus felt as well, as he too stood in front of his non-alcoholic beer brand placed just behind my face in every shot of this scene. Do you know what I mean? Like, there was an intention to the artistic purpose in that moment. Yeah, no, and he's just like, with the part early on, he's like, even my Samsung phone can't find out what's going on.

• 24:40Chris Ryan?

  Yes, yeah.

• 24:40Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, I, I live in the world, I get it. But, um, to answer your question, 100% no.

• 24:46Chris Ryan?

  Yep.

• 24:48Andy Greenwald?

  But that doesn't mean it wasn't successful in what it was, but it wasn't that type of movie. I just think that even before he worked on The Odyssey, one of the hallmarks of this franchise has been its willingness to have the types of human moments in both performance and in script that are often the first things edited out, and like, just as a small moment, like, Jean searching for V-Max, and it's just the last thing her sister saw. It's been a fascinating case study, because I think that was, that was a lovely little script moment. Like, that was a nice thing, that had some nice emotional resonance and payoff. And then I do think there's a portion of the audience that's just like, what did that mean? Cause they're just not used to things aren't being handheld.

• 25:29Chris Ryan?

  It was a non-spiteful commentary on Easter egg culture.

• 25:32Andy Greenwald?

  Exactly.

• 25:33Chris Ryan?

  And I thought it was like.

• 25:34Andy Greenwald?

  Well said.

• 25:34Chris Ryan?

  Not mean, not like a rug pull, but it was like, sometimes in life, this kind of thing happens, where you think something is important, and it turns out to just be something somebody saw on a billboard or whatever, you know? I take note that you liked those human moments between, uh, Zendaya and, and Tom Holland, just because.

• 25:53Andy Greenwald?

  Is Chris Hansen here?

• 25:56Chris Ryan?

  As a amateur trainspotter of like, who rewrote what and credit, credited or uncredited screenwriters, Justin Kritsky, who wrote, uh, Queer and Challengers, and is a, a very much like a screenwriter, uh, du jour, and like, very, very popular, uh, was brought in to do some rewrite work on, on this screenplay, and apparently, part, the part, part that he worked on the most were the Aunt May talking to Tom in the, the bedroom, and then Jean later, and then some of the, the stuff between.

• 26:30Andy Greenwald?

  And that makes sense.

• 26:30Chris Ryan?

  Between, between, uh, Zendaya and Tom Holland, but like, specifically the stuff on Punisher's, uh, boathouse, like, we're.

• 26:37Andy Greenwald?

  We're, we're gonna get to him.

• 26:39Chris Ryan?

  And I thought you could tell that it had a lived-in sensitivity that maybe some of the other stuff did not.

• 26:46Andy Greenwald?

  I would say that that was also, separate and apart from whatever working arrangement everyone had, like, that strikes me as incredibly healthy franchise management. Chris McKenna and Eric Summers, who are the credited writers on all three of the John Watt Spider-Man trilogy.

• 27:00Chris Ryan?

  The Community too, right?

• 27:02Andy Greenwald?

  Also from, from the world of Community, from comedy writing, um, have the script credit for this movie as well, but they have not even been shy about, like, when, like, when Daniel Cretton has been interviewed about the movie, he's like, well, Justin and I were working on this on set, and Justin was on, so, Justin came on and was the screenwriter on set, which is a much more contemporary thing to have happen in these franchise movies that are constantly rewriting.

• 27:27Andy Greenwald?

  Um, I, again, I, I don't have no idea about what was cut, or what was added, or what the working relationship was like, but that strikes me as very healthy, in that you have the people who carry the DNA of the franchise and of these characters to this point, but it is intentionally a pivot, and it's a largely successful, certainly financially completely successful pivot into what the next few of these movies might be like, so having a different tone, tonally different screenwriter on set works.

• 27:53Chris Ryan?

  Are you excited to visit New York City sometime in the next six to 12 months, go to a show, go to a play?

• 28:00Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 28:00Chris Ryan?

  Look at Playbill and see, was briefly possessed by Jean Grey and Spider-Man: Brand New Day as a credit for like, 85 theater actors?

• 28:09Andy Greenwald?

  I thought you were going to say to go to New York and look around for my favorite chippy, because I'm actually in Glasgow by accident.

• 28:16Andy Greenwald?

  Like that I thought would be.

• 28:18Chris Ryan?

  Uh, there was a, a, a kind of, I thought there was a nice like, kind of

• 28:25Chris Ryan?

  almost musicality to like, what it was essentially the major kind of villainy of the movie, which was Jean possessing.

• 28:32Andy Greenwald?

  That was awesome.

• 28:33Chris Ryan?

  It was cool. Yeah.

• 28:34Andy Greenwald?

  It was also, I feel like, you know, I'm all about mea culpa's on this podcast. Like, uh, we were so close in that every time we talked about this movie and then post trailers, I was like, well, I just, I don't know. I don't know what the movie is. I don't know who the villain is. Anyway, Sadie Singh's clearly playing Jean Grey.

• 28:50Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 28:50Andy Greenwald?

  But I did not have the creative imagination to make that jump that she would be the villain. And maybe that's a kudos to the filmmakers because that was a very bold choice.

• 29:00Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 29:00Andy Greenwald?

  To make the villain of this, you know, highly anticipated movie, not just a new character, not just a new character played by a young actor, but a new character played by a young actor that is also going to be the linchpin of an entirely new.

• 29:14Chris Ryan?

  Franchise.

• 29:14Andy Greenwald?

  Franchise.

• 29:15Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 29:15Andy Greenwald?

  That's a lot on, on some slim shoulders, but it, it worked because it was surprising. And as you said, the way that they, um, visualized her power was unique and visually interesting. And then also to your other point, like what happens at the end hints at why this level of power in someone unpredictable and unreliable is terrifying. As opposed to, I mean, like this kid got bitten by a spider, but like he can't within, with one thought, take out all of Manhattan.

• 29:51Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. And I think that there, the reason why I've always responded to the X-Men as well is because I do think that

• 29:58Chris Ryan?

  to a person, all of their powers are curses, you know?

• 30:02Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, right.

• 30:03Chris Ryan?

  And that's not always been the case with the Avengers kind of, uh, era of, of superheroes that we've had in the movies. And especially the later period stuff where it became a lot of like, I'm so, I just shoot beams of light out. Like, I'm just like, and you're like, I don't even know what you're doing.

• 30:21Andy Greenwald?

  Even Scarlet Witch, her powers, what are, like man on the street challenge, what can she do?

• 30:26Chris Ryan?

  What can't she do?

• 30:26Andy Greenwald?

  What?

• 30:27Chris Ryan?

  You know?

• 30:28Andy Greenwald?

  Can't she do? That's beautiful.

• 30:30Chris Ryan?

  Um, all of the, all of the X-Men are like, kind of crippled by their own.

• 30:35Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 30:36Chris Ryan?

  Their own, their own specialness. And it's like, it was cool to see them dramatize Jean early on as being somebody who is sometimes only have, has like a, the most looseest control over what she's capable of.

• 30:49Andy Greenwald?

  And again.

• 30:50Chris Ryan?

  And people around her who are trying to provoke her to be even bigger or smaller than what she actually is.

• 30:55Andy Greenwald?

  And I think that when Feige's MCU has been its most successful, has been a sense of cherry picking the canonical biographical aspects of characters that work best for the most successful screen version of the character, which is a long way of saying, I think I kind of remembered vaguely that Jean had a sister, but that is not historically like a foundational part of who this person is. And that was really smart. It was just a smart, they, they found it, they identified it, and they made it better for the story that they're choosing to tell.

• 31:28Chris Ryan?

  I just felt like we got in and out. Like, you know, like the sister, uh, rest in power, but like,

• 31:34Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 31:34Chris Ryan?

  It was like, not a belabored thing. Now I don't remember if I, I don't think I knew anything about Sarah Gray. I, I.

• 31:42Andy Greenwald?

  No, I, I don't think you did either. I say that as your friend.

• 31:46Andy Greenwald?

  And I'll say it to a court of law and I'll say it to these Dateline cameras. You never knew her. You never visited her and that wasn't your burner.

• 31:54Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 31:57Andy Greenwald?

  But it, but it, you know, it was, I'm curious your thoughts on this because you are more actively, not just a movie watcher, but you talk about movies more and, and contemporary movies. And I think generally like the, the bill of fare of what movies need to do these days is just enormous and groaning to accomplish everything. You know, character level, franchise management, setting up the next one, all that. So there is no more, there's no more like elegant shape to a three act structure, really. That said, I was a little bit thrown in the watching of it, that the third act of a Spider-Man movie, which are, I know this sounds insane to say, but are relatively precious. And it's been five years since the last one, was this detour into the backstory of a different franchise's lead, who is also

• 32:43Andy Greenwald?

  the villain of this one. It, it was a momentum surprise.

• 32:48Chris Ryan?

  I wonder whether or not that's a very comfortable place for everybody who's involved in this to be because, you know, I, I think there is some disappointment that we've had three Spider-Men. And, you know, I, I didn't.

• 33:01Andy Greenwald?

  And no Spider-Women?

• 33:01Chris Ryan?

  I didn't go back through and, and re-watch all those movies. So I don't know, like where they go. They've obviously introduced some iconic villains.

• 33:08Andy Greenwald?

  You mean the previous trilogies?

• 33:09Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, the previous trilogies. But he's obviously the best person suited to be the new Tony Stark as a, in terms of, I can drop by for a couple of scenes, or I can give this person, you know, a, a great platform to emerge.

• 33:24Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 33:25Chris Ryan?

  But I don't know beyond the, uh, like Peter MJ stuff.

• 33:32Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 33:33Chris Ryan?

  What, and, and with great power comes great responsibility. Like, I don't really know what they want to do with that character. And it might just be that he is the ultimate locker room presence and the ultimate vibes guy.

• 33:45Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 33:45Chris Ryan?

  And what they can do is basically shadow pilot, backdoor pilot, the X-Men.

• 33:51Andy Greenwald?

  Now, what's amazing about that, and you, you picked up on is that is kind of the role that the character has played in the comics for many years. I mean, there was, it's not just a cartoon that was called like Spider-Man and his amazing friends. There was a long running comic in the eighties called Marvel Team Up. There was Spider-Man and a blank. And it was just a chance to like, give other characters shine because they would inevitably hang out with him or cross paths with him. I thought the, the greatest success of the movie, separate and apart from the charisma of the leads, was its real knowledge of and celebration of the idea that this character, particularly played by this actor, is the heart and soul of this massive corporate project.

• 34:29Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 34:29Andy Greenwald?

  That like, and that, and that he plays that role, both in terms of our connection to it in the real world, but also within the world. Everybody loves him for a reason. Like the city loves him, um, fucking Punisher loves him. And that when anyone ever, and whenever anyone plays in his sandbox, they are in his story.

• 34:47Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 34:47Andy Greenwald?

  And servicing the type of story that he tells, which is basically a selfless and generous and kind story, which is not always the case for X-Men and Punisher or whatever. And I agree with other critics. I know the Midnight Boys were saying this as well, that of all of the Spider-Man media, which there's been quite a lot, this movie got closest to the comic book tone of this guy every day being like,

• 35:11Andy Greenwald?

  Wednesday, man.

• 35:12Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 35:12Andy Greenwald?

  And on a Wednesday, he may fight Tombstone and put Scorpion back in jail, and then also be laid on his rent. And then like, that is the nature of the character, that there is just this rogues gallery and this constant like time to make the donuts.

• 35:23Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 35:24Andy Greenwald?

  Of being this underappreciated hero. Now, historically in the comics, he isn't also part of the deep police state with surveillance cameras on every corner. Uh, but you know.

• 35:33Chris Ryan?

  Didn't you hear AOC said woke one is over? You can't, you can't, you can't get mad at Spider-Man.

• 35:38Andy Greenwald?

  Well, also Tony Stark's gone, so he had to partner with Palantir or whomever, you know, for his latest.

• 35:44Chris Ryan?

  I think he's a much better, uh, like, uh, basically like keystone of a, of a world. Because he's so, like you said, like he's just so engaging and he is so likeable. It's almost like Iron Man is, is actually like a testament to Downey's charisma.

• 36:01Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 36:01Chris Ryan?

  Cause Iron Man himself is an alcoholic arms dealer.

• 36:05Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 36:05Chris Ryan?

  You know, like.

• 36:06Andy Greenwald?

  I'm sorry, is that bad?

• 36:08Chris Ryan?

  It's more realistic, but it is, um, let's hit two other things I wanted to talk to you about.

• 36:14Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I can guess one.

• 36:15Chris Ryan?

  One is, uh, the whole, like, I'm turning into a spider plot line of this, which I thought, have they done that before?

• 36:25Andy Greenwald?

  In the comics, many times.

• 36:26Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 36:26Andy Greenwald?

  But only in the last like 20, 30 years. And, and some of that storyline, you may remember from Madame Web.

• 36:33Chris Ryan?

  I do. That's it.

• 36:34Andy Greenwald?

  Like that there, that, that's the villain in that iconic piece of cinema, I think was part of a time they told the story where it's just like, I am the original Spider-Man in which I am more spider than man. And there have been many of us. There was an actor who I almost, I don't feel like we should name him because I hope he has a beautiful career.

• 36:53Chris Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 36:54Andy Greenwald?

  You know, I, I feel like he was, there was a lot of ADR in his performance.

• 36:58Chris Ryan?

  That, that was probably the least successful part of it for me, I think. Uh, although pretty cool when he fought the ninjas.

• 37:06Andy Greenwald?

  This is why, this is why you work on both sides of the aisle.

• 37:08Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Uh, but I wanted to talk about Burnthaw.

• 37:12Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I would just agree with you about like the, the mutation plot worked as a thematic metaphor for the story and a way to get Hulk involved and stuff. But like, that is Spider-Man becoming a, like, that is the least interesting, the least interesting versions of the character for me. They have now done both. One is in which he's like, I shall become a spider. And the other one is I shall become Iron Man in a space suit that also shoots webs.

• 37:36Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 37:36Andy Greenwald?

  It's just a dude, man.

• 37:37Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 37:38Andy Greenwald?

  That's what makes him good.

• 37:39Chris Ryan?

  What makes the Punisher good?

• 37:41Andy Greenwald?

  Okay.

• 37:42Chris Ryan?

  No, I'm asking you.

• 37:43Andy Greenwald?

  Let's talk about it. I was, I gotta say, I was pretty shocked that how much this became like a two-hander.

• 37:50Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 37:50Andy Greenwald?

  Between, um, Telemachus and Menelaus, because the way the movie.

• 37:55Chris Ryan?

  Menelaus?

• 37:56Andy Greenwald?

  Menelaus. You don't think it's like a, like a house?

• 37:59Chris Ryan?

  I, I think in the movie, they're like, Menelaus.

• 38:01Andy Greenwald?

  In the movie, they're also like, dad's coming home soon. So.

• 38:04Chris Ryan?

  Fair, fair point.

• 38:05Andy Greenwald?

  You know.

• 38:05Chris Ryan?

  Fair point.

• 38:06Andy Greenwald?

  I was thinking, sorry, Emily Wilson walks in and she's like, you know how this looks, right?

• 38:12Andy Greenwald?

  See the way we combined the threads? It's like Adam Webb.

• 38:15Chris Ryan?

  Dad's actually not coming up.

• 38:17Andy Greenwald?

  That's exactly right.

• 38:21Andy Greenwald?

  I, when he shows up at the beginning and like he webs his mouth when he's about to say the F word and they're doing the tank chase or whatever. I was like, oh, they're doing this frantic friendly neighborhood Spider-Man thing. And that might be the extent of his role in this film. That was not the case. So I was pretty surprised. I would say that it was a good choice of like bench management to be like, we have a great actor. We have a great character that you might not expect to be the team up. But in this new, in this brand new day, if you will, these are the sort of, these are the sort of people that he's dealing with. So I thought that aspect of it was fun. I need you to talk me through the burnt all of it because maybe it's just overexposure, but like, I need him.

• 39:05Andy Greenwald?

  I, I, I love him. Not as much as you, but I love him. I need a different, a different color from his paintbox.

• 39:13Chris Ryan?

  Well, I think you're probably, did you watch the Punisher, like?

• 39:17Andy Greenwald?

  I sure did.

• 39:17Chris Ryan?

  Film that he made?

• 39:18Andy Greenwald?

  Well, the short film that he made with Ronaldo, Rinaldo, Marcus Green. I did watch it and it is shocking that that character is also this character. But that's what's cool about comics.

• 39:26Chris Ryan?

  I agree. It's definitely amusing to imagine people being like, what else can I watch from The Punisher?

• 39:33Andy Greenwald?

  Truly. Yeah. Because I never thought, you know, maybe this is the future that they wanted for us. But I never expected my 13 year old to say the words, I really like The Punisher.

• 39:41Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Tell me more about Frank Castle.

• 39:44Andy Greenwald?

  It's like Phoebe Bridger's album, please?

• 39:48Chris Ryan?

  Sure. Yeah. Like is he in danger of, of self parody? I suppose any actor who goes big like that is.

• 39:58Chris Ryan?

  Am I partially to blame for that? Possibly, you know, like?

• 40:01Andy Greenwald?

  I appreciate your willingness to.

• 40:02Chris Ryan?

  Is the constant, you know, invocation of a years old Baltimore police, you know, detective that he played helping matters? Probably not, you know?

• 40:12Andy Greenwald?

  Especially because I would say the percentage of people for whom this is their, their first encounter with, um, you know, big time burnt all. I would say it's much more people saw this than saw We Own the City, despite our efforts otherwise.

• 40:30Chris Ryan?

  I thought he was delightful in this movie. I do think it's pretty fucking crazy that the entire film hinges on Punisher nearly assassinating Jean Grey with a sniper rifle.

• 40:39Andy Greenwald?

  Yes. And instead blowing out Peter Parker's fucking liver.

• 40:44Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 40:45Andy Greenwald?

  And then Jean Grey's just like, breathe with me. She's like doing the same doctoring you did after you saw House for a season.

• 40:51Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 40:52Andy Greenwald?

  Where she's like, you'll be fine. Now just breathe.

• 40:53Chris Ryan?

  He does, she, she does do the Neo, like just start pumping your heart again stuff.

• 40:58Andy Greenwald?

  That's cool.

• 40:58Chris Ryan?

  That was pretty vivid. And he also gets off scot free.

• 41:03Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 41:04Chris Ryan?

  He's got visitation privileges at the hospital. They're, they're like, who, who could possibly have shot this guy?

• 41:09Andy Greenwald?

  I know. And also who possibly could have shot upwards of 65 people in a series of abandoned warehouses in the Bronx recently?

• 41:18Chris Ryan?

  So that's not Staten Island that they keep referring to. Staten Island is where he lost his family.

• 41:22Andy Greenwald?

  No, Staten Island is, I think people are, people, you, you were saying like, kudos to people for knowing Vmax is just what it is. It was just a runner.

• 41:29Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 41:30Andy Greenwald?

  It was just a gag about a shared history that these characters had that determined their dynamic.

• 41:38Chris Ryan?

  Do you think they'll make more standalone Spider-Man?

• 41:40Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 41:40Chris Ryan?

  With Tom Holland?

• 41:41Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 41:41Chris Ryan?

  With Zendaya?

• 41:43Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, because they're married, so it probably seems like not. Also, how many days did Zendaya do on this movie versus The Odyssey?

• 41:49Chris Ryan?

  This is the funny thing about all these actors who have got five movies this year is she's kind of only barely in two of them.

• 42:00Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 42:00Chris Ryan?

  She's incredible in the drama. Did you see the drama?

• 42:03Andy Greenwald?

  No, it just hit streaming. I'm going to watch it.

• 42:04Chris Ryan?

  She's, she's wonderful in the drama and she's wonderful in Euphoria.

• 42:07Andy Greenwald?

  She's good in everything. I have no notes about how good she is.

• 42:10Chris Ryan?

  Spider-Man, Brand New Day and The Odyssey, while she's good in both, it seems like she was there for like a couple of, like a week or two.

• 42:16Andy Greenwald?

  She was very good in her limited scenes and the show, and the show, the movie pops when they are together. And it was the smart play to guarantee that whatever the next movie is will be as big as this one to delay their.

• 42:29Chris Ryan?

  Reunion.

• 42:29Andy Greenwald?

  Their reunion. That said, it is just sort of interesting. Maybe we're behind on this. We're just noticing it because it's the biggest movies and the biggest stars. But we are still carrying, I imagine, I know I am, this sense that like, when you go to do a movie, it's like, we've all seen the Apocalypse Now documentary. It's just like, I guess I'm going to be in Thailand for six months with a lunatic changing his mind.

• 42:48Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 42:49Andy Greenwald?

  Like that is not the era of filmmaking we're in anymore. And instead it's like a series of days in Atlanta and a series of days in London or Tunisia or wherever. And they, and they wrap you out and, and certainly stars of that caliber are able to do that.

• 43:03Andy Greenwald?

  And it certainly did help that she's, this is the, this, these are the movies in which they fell in love and that her husband has complete creative control over. So I'm sure it wasn't like a hardship. They enjoy it.

• 43:12Chris Ryan?

  Pushing big NA on people.

• 43:14Andy Greenwald?

  Pushing, yeah. Once again, these celebrities, but I, but it, I don't know. I did leave the movie being like, that was all she did, wasn't it?

• 43:22Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 43:23Andy Greenwald?

  But it's fine. It is a, it's a sign of a successful franchise, I guess, that they didn't act like this was going to be their only time making it, even though it may have been. Because the scene when the three friends are reunited has the same spark that the first three movies did. And I am not so jaded that I wasn't like, this is wonderful fun to see these three young actors playing off each other again.

• 43:46Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 43:46Andy Greenwald?

  And it, and it was very stingy with that.

• 43:48Chris Ryan?

  So in the future, they're just going to like get to know him again?

• 43:53Andy Greenwald?

  I don't know. I mean, I think the fun of the ending, um, and again, I think like, we should give credit to Daniel Dustin Cretton, who directed it and the screenwriters who wrote it. Because there, there was heart and intention in it. Like there, despite the things that like the boxes it had to tick and the fight scenes or whatever. Like I did think they thought cleverly about how to bring Anne May back and what it would mean and the moments that they did or, and to leave on a moment of, you know, in, in the Redditor era where people are like, well, no, clearly Ned remembers now and the spell is broken because Mephisto is too busy, you know, with harvesting iron heart soul to, no, it's just like, that was a nice moment because either the spell is broken or it's just like a moment of you're the guy from the other night and are we friends or whatever it is.

• 44:38Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 44:39Andy Greenwald?

  That.

• 44:41Chris Ryan?

  That should be enough.

• 44:43Chris Ryan?

  It is enough.

• 44:44Andy Greenwald?

  But, but how they're going to integrate, it, it does make me think that those characters likely won't be in Battleworld in Secret Avengers, Secret Wars.

• 44:53Chris Ryan?

  Ned will be in Battleworld?

• 44:55Andy Greenwald?

  I would say.

• 44:55Chris Ryan?

  You're really pushing your boat out.

• 44:56Andy Greenwald?

  I would say with respect, Jacob Badlon is probably available for, and would like to be in, in Battleworld. My guess is no.

• 45:04Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 45:04Andy Greenwald?

  Do you have any, do you, do you feel like you've been also silenced on the, the fact that there is a strong, there's a strong, uh, take on the internet that the Hulk has been dispatched. We will never see Mark Ruffalo again because he has been too outspoken about Palestine.

• 45:20Chris Ryan?

  I, I didn't see that take. I, I imagine.

• 45:22Andy Greenwald?

  He has been silenced.

• 45:23Chris Ryan?

  Won't he be in the movies coming up?

• 45:26Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah. I, I, I am fairly sure that he didn't do the press, not because of his outspoken political views, but because he is in Passyunk right now. Getting eaten alive by mosquitoes. And that, considering again, like how totally fine it is to fly to Glasgow for four days and be like, oh no, it's happening again. And then they draw him in the rest of the movie.

• 45:47Chris Ryan?

  You wouldn't like me when I'm mad.

• 45:48Andy Greenwald?

  I think it's okay. And I think he'll be on, I think he'll be on Battleworld, baby.

• 45:52Speaker 01

  Star Wars, The Mandalorian and Grogu is now streaming on Disney Plus.

• 45:58Speaker 02

  What are you waiting for? Hop on.

• 46:00Speaker 01

  The must see galactic adventure comes home on Disney Plus.

• 46:04Speaker 02

  This is the way. Our only chance is to work together. I like this kid. Always wear your seatbelt.

• 46:14Speaker 01

  Star Wars, The Mandalorian and Grogu now streaming on Disney Plus. Rated PG 13.

• 46:23Chris Ryan?

  Let's get to another Battleworld. Hot D.

• 46:26Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 46:26Chris Ryan?

  S3 finale.

• 46:27Andy Greenwald?

  Great. Great. Literally great. Great.

• 46:30Chris Ryan?

  I have long said.

• 46:31Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 46:32Chris Ryan?

  That there's no lock on this door. You're free to leave Shawshank whenever you want.

• 46:37Andy Greenwald?

  No, the only prison I'm in, I'm the jailer.

• 46:42Andy Greenwald?

  Trapped in up here.

• 46:45Chris Ryan?

  Where do I want to start with you with this?

• 46:47Andy Greenwald?

  I want to start with you. Go, I mean, I want to know.

• 46:50Chris Ryan?

  I think that my appreciation for this show is greatly aided by podcasting with the wonderful Joanna and Mallory about it.

• 46:59Andy Greenwald?

  You get context.

• 47:00Chris Ryan?

  And so I get context. I think I also got drawn into the lore more this year. And while I did not read the source material, I've done a lot of, you know.

• 47:10Andy Greenwald?

  No, you're like the guy in college, you're kicking and screaming. You don't read the novels. You read the criticism.

• 47:16Chris Ryan?

  I, I read a lot of like, you know, supplemental texts to, to aid my understanding of, of what was going on. I don't think that was smart because I think it would be, it would have been better to go into this as I guess you probably did, being surprised by outcomes, if, if that such thing were possible.

• 47:34Andy Greenwald?

  Well, yes and no. I mean, there's a level of surprise that is not veering into wonder that actually speaks to my, I think, deep disinterest in this show and the world that it's attempted to build in the sense that like, this episode opens with Rhaenyra getting news of Aegon's.

• 47:52Chris Ryan?

  He's back.

• 47:53Andy Greenwald?

  Proof of life.

• 47:53Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 47:54Andy Greenwald?

  And I was like, is she happy about that or sad? Like that was my level of like remembering, who cares about?

• 47:59Chris Ryan?

  When she instantly bursts into tears and starts screaming, where did that convince you that she was sad?

• 48:06Andy Greenwald?

  No, frankly, because it's just like another day in the office. No, no, no.

• 48:10Chris Ryan?

  Why don't you get, get on the grill and cook a little bit here about how you felt about the finale. But now that we've reached the end of this third season.

• 48:17Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, look, I think it's, it's, it's the, it's the, it's the same conversation we had about the season premiere now in the B side of it, in that the show edits, I'm sad to say, I would have said at its best, but I think the third episode showed that there's a different version somewhere inside of here that they could have explored had they been able to, or had they gotten started on a different creative foot. But the, other than that, uh, other than that, like zag, I think the show is at its best a series of dots on a timeline and with some spackle. And so this was another significant dot.

• 48:58Andy Greenwald?

  I don't think it's the sign of a successful show, certainly a mass market show, that I can watch it with, admittedly, like the mindset and attitude of a deep casual at this point and be like, half of what's happening in this episode could have happened at the midpoint of the season.

• 49:13Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 49:15Andy Greenwald?

  And then the second, secondary follow up to that is, well, at least if they were stalling, because all shows manipulate time and audience interest. I mean, that is the nature of serialized storytelling in this medium. At least were the diversions worth it or memorable? And I have to say, I don't think they were ultimately. Like, if you think about how at the beginning of the season, we were pointing out things like, here's a promising strand, here's a promising strand. And at least in this season, we seemed to be able to focus on them. And one of the promising strands was Kristen Cole and Gwain being like fog of war friends. But halfway through the season, Kristen Cole's like, let me be real with you, I'm on a suicide mission, dog. And Gwain's like, okay, peace. And then Kristen Cole gets got.

• 50:00Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. And literally, one person is like, hmm.

• 50:03Andy Greenwald?

  Hmm. I'm reacting to that news.

• 50:04Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 50:05Andy Greenwald?

  And then, and then it's like, oh, Laris and Aegon, we're gonna get a road trip for the ages between these two kooks. And then as soon as there's an army coming, Laris is like, so you're committed to this then? All right, see ya. You know, like, that feels like watching a, watching other people play chess in the park.

• 50:24Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 50:24Andy Greenwald?

  As opposed to being on the board with them. And that's a bummer. And that's separate and apart from my reaction to other specific things that happened in this episode.

• 50:30Chris Ryan?

  It's interesting you bring those two different things up. They were among my, if not my favorite. I mean, Laris and Aegon actually was one of my favorite threads of the season. And then-

• 50:39Andy Greenwald?

  Primarily because of the actors, though, I would say.

• 50:41Chris Ryan?

  I think that the reason why I reacted so strongly to episode three, which is the one that's shot almost entirely from Rhaenyra's POV, or at least her experiential kind of understanding of what's happening around her, was so refreshing, was because it offered the show, A, like, different feel and a different tempo and a different look, but B, it was an editorial decision. It was like curation of an experience.

• 51:08Andy Greenwald?

  Someone is making something there.

• 51:09Chris Ryan?

  And I made this point last night to Mal and Joe, and I don't think I made it very well, but I, I feel like this episode could have really benefited from the same kind of like, honestly, like, pretty cutthroat treatment of Alicent in this episode, where they're like, she shows up in the last 30 seconds to be like, I feel a disturbance in the force.

• 51:27Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 51:28Chris Ryan?

  And that's because that character probably was not with any other characters that she would have a conversation worth hearing about. But I don't know necessarily that I feel like, a lot of the conversations that happen at various points in this episode had to happen as many times as they did. I felt like there was a lot of repetition of statement of intent, statement of like allegiance, whatever it is. And I think that, I think that this gets to a little bit maybe of the source material stuff. You know, the Game of Thrones series is adapted from a series of novels that are written from the perspective of very specific characters. I think that that is one of the great acts of adaptation

• 52:11Chris Ryan?

  that I've ever seen, frankly. I mean, like, what they did with those books. And regardless of how you feel about the end of it, the last season of it, to make you feel, to make, I think, equally, people who have never read the books and have no idea what's gonna happen next, and people who've been waiting years to see the things that are about to happen, take place, to equally satisfy those two parties, is a really amazing act. But I think part of the reason why a lot of stuff in House of the Dragon winds up falling maybe a little flatter for you than it does for me, but not super 100% successful for me, is because it's being adapted from this very odd source material.

• 52:50Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 52:50Chris Ryan?

  And a lot of the events that have transpired and will transpire are, and then this happened, and then this happened, and then this happened. But they're not necessarily evidently about family, or about-

• 53:04Andy Greenwald?

  Or, or, or personal transformation, or growth, or learning.

• 53:08Chris Ryan?

  The things you need, the things that TV shows are made of.

• 53:10Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 53:11Chris Ryan?

  And they went through great lengths to try and establish that by having a younger cast play Rhaenyra and Alicent in the beginning of season one. They went to great lengths to establish character stakes by putting various people at Harrenhal dreaming their lives away with Alice and Kristen Cole's kind of like, you know, road to nowhere. And like, they've tried to do the work. And I do think when I talk about it with, with Mal and Joe, I'm definitely like, oh, like, this is really, there will be moments where like, Daemon talks to Rhaenyra in Hyvolirian, and that's when he's trying to encourage her to see herself as this god thing. And like, there are good flourishes in this show,

• 53:55Chris Ryan?

  but I think there's something very static and a very kind of like, reportorial about-

• 53:59Andy Greenwald?

  It's infuriating. For example, there's a version of Rhaenyra, and Emma Darcy's performance is exceptionally strong, during, doing a lot of thankless things for the back half of the season. But there's a version of the character of Rhaenyra, whose mission and whose goal is to honor the legacy of her father, who was a good king, and trying to be like him, but is frustrated in that ambition. The version of the character we have on House of the Dragon is one who's reduced to shouting Reddit prophecies to everyone to justify-

• 54:33Chris Ryan?

  That's off book, by the way.

• 54:34Andy Greenwald?

  All of her behavior. Congratulations. Not to you, but I just mean like, but that is kind of infuriating. If you are pointing to a larger canon, or a link to the other series, in order to justify behavior, that really only makes sense in a history book about like, man, everybody was crazy, you're in trouble.

• 54:53Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 54:53Andy Greenwald?

  What you're speaking to about, like, what it's lacking in relation to other shows, is the feeling that we need from filmed entertainment of both emotional investment and the possibility of surprise. Not, there are very few Tony Gilroy's, you know, but if you look at what he did with Andor, which is also a story that had an ending, that he was writing toward, and how when he stepped into the series development process, he was like, no, we're just not gonna do that. We're not gonna do the obvious thing, where we start the marble here, and then we just roll it down. We are going to tell a story about a rebellion, and we're going to use this track in ways that you would never expect to get there. And suddenly you care about characters, and within the creation, there

• 55:35Andy Greenwald?

  are characters that have their own mini arcs that give us some meaning and sustenance. My biggest frustration about the show is that it shares this deeply nihilistic worldview that Game of Thrones ultimately shared, that I think, thinks it's smart, but is honestly fucking stupid. And particularly in the case of this show, and I'm sorry it's a little bit gloves off, because I found this episode so infuriating, and ultimately, the season maybe more infuriating, because it gave us evidence of, look, we actually have a lot of life and spark here in some cast, and in some creativity, and in some production design that we can show you when we're allowed to. So it's almost like I'm feeling harsher because of episode three.

• 56:10Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 56:10Andy Greenwald?

  But if the fundamental belief of the show is that, guess what, both sides are bad, that's not actually as galaxy brain as you think it is. That's actually kind of nihilistic and just deeply unsatisfying. So both sides are bad, we're not rooting for everyone, and death and ruin comes to them all at the end? What are we watching for? And I'm not saying we need some like glimpse of hope that like, you know, what's his name? Not Alf, the other one.

• 56:37Chris Ryan?

  Hugh.

• 56:37Andy Greenwald?

  Hughes. Well, maybe Hugh will have a happy ending. It's like, well, literally no one gets a happy ending, because that's still somehow the, the currency of the land is that everything sucks. So in the big finale, there was a moment when the big crazy guy from the north is banging his shield, and they're all banging their shields. And I was like, well, this at least is trying to give us some sense of cultural otherness or place, that these are the warriors who do this thing, and the thing that they do has this effect on people. And it's not just running towards people until dragonfire makes them run the other way. And I was like, that's kind of interesting. And then it culminated in him just having like a few good moments of, you know, I don't want to get Chris Hansen in

• 57:20Andy Greenwald?

  here again, but using his sword on Ormen before he laughs at the dragonfire engulfing them both. I'm like, man, I really hope James Norton enjoyed his time in Leavesden, you know? Like, the catering on studio, I can attest to, it has a really, there are some really nice options. Because otherwise, what are we doing? You know, again, damned if you do, damned if you don't. Like, they got a good actor to like, have a little bit of a prissy personality and do some things.

• 57:44Chris Ryan?

  Like, a season long villain arc is not-

• 57:47Andy Greenwald?

  A season long villain arc in rooms until he gets stabbed up the butt. It's like, okay.

• 57:51Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Well, you put it that way.

• 57:52Andy Greenwald?

  There are worse ways to make a living, you know?

• 57:55Chris Ryan?

  But there are better ways.

• 57:55Andy Greenwald?

  But there are maybe better ways, uses of our time, or uses of our actors. I just found that so, all of the carnage and all of the, all of the intensity and the violence being amped up to hide the fact that there's nothing else there, so that even that what the season appeared to be chasing was Daemon, who is a one dimensional monster, wandering around the fog of war, being like, damn, maybe we went too far. I'm like, I don't believe you.

• 58:19Chris Ryan?

  He's also a girl dad, though.

• 58:20Andy Greenwald?

  Okay, now, now can we lean in and talk about what's interesting to me?

• 58:23Chris Ryan?

  The choice to make it about the Targaryens, I think, the, like, the court of George R. R. Martin has proved me wrong. Like, I have sounded this sort of note where I've said, that's not actually the most interesting thing about, in my experience, Westeros is not the Targaryens, their arrival, their conquest of the world, their various insane kings, a couple of the good ones, their fascination with flying nuclear weapons, and their inability to control them. Like, I think that that was so much more interesting to me as a- Product of myth and history in the series Game of Thrones than it is in

• 59:05Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 59:05Chris Ryan?

  Practice in House of the Dragon. And I actually think that's probably as good as dragons can look, like on screen, you know what I mean? Like, like in terms of

• 59:13Andy Greenwald?

  Sure.

• 59:14Chris Ryan?

  Executing something, the reason why this show takes two years to get on the air is probably because it takes a long time to get the dragons to look as good as they do. And for the battle scene like Tumbleton to be executed the way it is. And I, you know, I hate doing this. I hate being like, the show should be about Kristen Cole. But like a show that was about the bastards and broken things beneath those powerful people is a more interesting story than me than.

• 59:37Andy Greenwald?

  The challenge of talking about the show season to season, and I imagine it's frustrating to some of our listeners, is that it does all come down to the original sin. You know, and we were, maybe we'll talk about it more detail next week, but, but I, I'm so fascinated by what FX did with the show Adults, because basically that John Landgraf, the head of the network was like, I believe in the show, but we screwed up the beginning. We're going to make a secret new prologue pilot as a mulligan. That rarely happens, and it certainly couldn't really happen with a show like this. But it is all stemming from that original decision because there are interesting things here. But you also have to consider, if you're considering the fake history that George R.R. Martin wrote, you also have to consider the history of, of Warner Brothers Discovery and what it was before that, and the failed spinoff that they tried to get off the ground,

• 1:00:20Andy Greenwald?

  and how they needed to have some dragon content on the air to continue to justify all the other shows that they were making. And the decision to make something that felt safer, because it started with where the other one ended, which is dragons. Like you begin to have some understanding of that, like it is a much harder sell. And a much tougher to explain to your executives as well as your boardroom that like, so in this history, there's a character named Sir Ulf who likes to drink. And what his, his decision making swings history. And we're going to tell that story. Now, I, I'm not saying that I could do it. I'm not saying that any screenwriter alive could have pitched that successfully, let alone pulled it off. But that is so interesting. And it is the eighth best expressed thing in this finale.

• 1:01:04Andy Greenwald?

  Do you know what I mean? Like, he's a drunk and he's pissed off at everyone, but they gave him a nuclear weapon. And look what happens because of it. Like, that is compelling. And when you're making the show, I'm sure the people making it were like, at least we got to do that too, in addition to everything else. But that's not the focus. And so it feels really disappointing, I think, because of that.

• 1:01:24Chris Ryan?

  I'm glad that there's multiple, like, if you're gonna do Game of Thrones the way they're doing it, I'm glad that they have chosen to do this and Night of the Seven Kingdoms.

• 1:01:33Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 1:01:33Chris Ryan?

  And that, you know, I mean, I know that Aegon's conquest is being rumored to like start shooting next year, I think, like, it sounds like they're very serious about that. As a movie, um, but I, you know, I still, I remain fascinated by this television experiment to like bring this stuff to life and the conflict between the source material and the actual stuff on screen.

• 1:01:55Andy Greenwald?

  What's, what's Sanaa Mazun's character? Miss, what's her name?

• 1:01:58Chris Ryan?

  Masaria?

• 1:01:58Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah. What an arc. What a, what a legendary arc this season. Someone finally comes up to her, tears in their eyes, Sarah, Sarah, you must go to Pentos. And she's like, no, my place is here for no apparent reason, but sometimes I sleep with the queen. Can we just say, in the 14 years that we've podcasted, this, this wacky medium of television has taken us to some outlandish places.

• 1:02:21Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 1:02:22Andy Greenwald?

  Recently, we went to Venus, where it turns out we shouldn't have landed.

• 1:02:25Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 1:02:25Andy Greenwald?

  In Star City.

• 1:02:26Chris Ryan?

  They, they definitively told us that.

• 1:02:28Andy Greenwald?

  I would say of everywhere we've ever been and everywhere I've had to spend time for television, I think there is no place worse than Harrenhal.

• 1:02:37Andy Greenwald?

  Like, it is borderline insane to me. I mean, maybe they had the standing sets and they had to amortize them over another season or something. But like emerging from such like a lethargic prison box, where Matt Smith, a compelling and charismatic, charismatic actor is just yelling at a tree for half of the season. Then you just take another character and put him back there? And everyone who shows up there, it's a dream, kiss my mom. No, my brother's here. I'm like,

• 1:03:02Chris Ryan?

  Well, he was, Aegon was actually there, yeah.

• 1:03:05Andy Greenwald?

  Didn't know that at first, but he was there. Tom Glenn Carney is having the time of his life in that scene. And that, I pepped up at that moment. I, I appreciated that scene a lot. But like, can you, man of the people, bastard and broken thing, can you explain Alice Rivers to me? Can you just?

• 1:03:22Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, she's like Melisandre.

• 1:03:23Andy Greenwald?

  So she's a magic lady?

• 1:03:24Chris Ryan?

  She's a lady who made like a deal with like, a, a like lowercase devil, like she made.

• 1:03:30Andy Greenwald?

  Mephisto.

• 1:03:30Chris Ryan?

  Cause she tried to, what was it, keep her kid alive?

• 1:03:34Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 1:03:34Chris Ryan?

  It didn't work.

• 1:03:35Andy Greenwald?

  No.

• 1:03:36Chris Ryan?

  But the price she paid for using magic was like she could never leave Harrenhal. And it's like basically keeping her alive, but she can't leave. And so she's trying to bring people to Harrenhal, like to have more babies, to have babies who are going to be powerful, like

• 1:03:51Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 1:03:52Chris Ryan?

  Correct the institutional wrongs done to her.

• 1:03:54Andy Greenwald?

  It's just a bummer. If you have a friend that won't leave their house.

• 1:03:57Chris Ryan?

  Sincerely listening to me.

• 1:03:58Andy Greenwald?

  No, I'm listening. But I'm like, if you have a friend that won't leave the house, then you gotta have other friends. You know what I mean? You can't always go over to their place.

• 1:04:04Chris Ryan?

  It's true.

• 1:04:04Andy Greenwald?

  You can't do it. So. Where are you? Where are you?

• 1:04:10Chris Ryan?

  I'm, I'm fine. I'm, I'm, I'm, uh,

• 1:04:15Chris Ryan?

  I was, I was sufficiently entertained by like the Tumbleton battle and like the, the sort of the things that got checked off the board and what's to come. It's not, it's not coming back until 28, man.

• 1:04:27Andy Greenwald?

  I, I just, I think I was really worked up and like, respect to the show and like a classic.

• 1:04:32Chris Ryan?

  This pissed me off way.

• 1:04:33Andy Greenwald?

  Way. Cause I just thought that the, this, the, the pointless savagery of the end just struck me as very cynical.

• 1:04:42Andy Greenwald?

  Because why?

• 1:04:44Chris Ryan?

  The Helena part or the, just the battle?

• 1:04:46Andy Greenwald?

  No, I didn't even care about that. Like the, oh, the butterflies are fleeing because a magic girl jumped out of a window. I'm, I, I have no, I do not care about this character. I, she was, she was knitting more prophecy. It's cool. That's cool. It's like, it's like a new, new Supreme drop, like Rhaenyra's gonna wear that, you know? Exclusive piece. Speaking of a Supreme drop, Helena.

• 1:05:07Chris Ryan?

  Son.

• 1:05:08Andy Greenwald?

  Where'd you get that? No, it, it, it's just in terms of like, do, we don't use, I don't want to use the word earn too much, but I'm just like, give me some presents or stakes here other than another piece on this board to get to where we'll get in 2028.

• 1:05:22Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 1:05:23Andy Greenwald?

  And, um,

• 1:05:24Chris Ryan?

  Well, you're, you're, like I said.

• 1:05:25Andy Greenwald?

  I'll say it's just risky business to have a show that feels like so, so, so claustrophobic and then have a major plot point be how someone can't leave a place. Just maybe that's why I'm reacting so strongly.

• 1:05:35Chris Ryan?

  We can wrap it up there. I do want to talk about Adults. It's, uh, second season is coming soon, but that's an interesting industry story, an interesting TV story. So maybe we can file that with like our Thursday roundup of stuff. Thanks to Kai, Kai and Sarah for producing us today. Thanks to you.

• 1:05:49Andy Greenwald?

  Are you, are you, do you want to go check out the shards or you don't know yet?

• 1:05:54Chris Ryan?

  Reviled critically.

• 1:05:55Andy Greenwald?

  That makes me want to, that makes me interested.

• 1:05:57Chris Ryan?

  Uh, does it? Okay.

• 1:05:59Andy Greenwald?

  No, I mean, I, I,

• 1:06:01Chris Ryan?

  You've been actually, while the cat was away, the mouse.

• 1:06:04Andy Greenwald?

  Mouse was watching television.

• 1:06:05Chris Ryan?

  Smash TiVo. He watched, you watched a little bit of Sterling Point, because I, I mentioned it to you. Have you, you have not watched the shards?

• 1:06:11Andy Greenwald?

  No.

• 1:06:12Chris Ryan?

  You watched the adults prequel. You're up on the, on Furious.

• 1:06:15Andy Greenwald?

  Very up. All the way up.

• 1:06:17Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:06:18Andy Greenwald?

  Fat Joe and Remy Ma all the way up.

• 1:06:19Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:06:20Andy Greenwald?

  You love it when I, I know that you, it charms you when I.

• 1:06:22Chris Ryan?

  That's a very current reference. Yeah, it's good.

• 1:06:25Andy Greenwald?

  As opposed to, I sat on the fact that all season, Tumbleton makes me think of the Pusha T track Brambleton.

• 1:06:32Andy Greenwald?

  I sat on that until the end of this episode.

• 1:06:34Chris Ryan?

  It's for, it's for the real heads who get to the very, very, very last seconds.

• 1:06:38Andy Greenwald?

  That one's for Kai.

• 1:06:38Chris Ryan?

  Thanks very much, guys. We'll see you on Thursday.

• 1:06:49Speaker 01

  Star Wars: The Mandalorian and Grogu is now streaming on Disney+.

• 1:06:54Speaker 02

  What are you waiting for? Hop on.

• 1:06:57Speaker 01

  The must see galactic adventure comes home on Disney+.

• 1:07:01Speaker 02

  This is the way. Our only chance is to work together.

• 1:07:06Speaker 02

  I like this kid. Always wear your seatbelt.

• 1:07:11Speaker 01

  Star Wars: The Mandalorian and Grogu now streaming on Disney+, rated PG-13.

• 1:07:19Speaker 06

  This could be your ad, reaching a brand new audience on Spotify. Launch your first campaign in minutes today with Spotify Ads Manager.