Clayton Morris: Blackouts & Water Shortages, Tech Overlords Build AI Dystopia & Crush Resistance

The DoJ is using your tax dollars to sue any community that resists data centers. Clayton Morris on the AI takeover of America. (00:00) Clayton Morris’ Perspective on AI and Data Centers (08:08) The AI Task Force Designed to Pummel Communities (14:29) How Much Water Does It Take to Cool a Data Center? (29:53) The Powerlessness of Communities Consumed by Data Center (47:34) The Upsides vs. Downsides of AI Paid partnerships with: Dutch: Use code TUCKER for $50 off your vet care at https://dutch.com/tucker Black Rifle Coffee: Promo code "Tucker" for 30% off at https://www.blackriflecoffee.com Redmond Salt: Use code TUCKER for 15% off your first order at https://redmond.com/tucker Alp Pouch: Shop the new Frontier collection at https://AlpPouch.com/Tucker Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' health care to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the House Majority PAC dot com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 0:34Speaker 01

  Clayton Morse, thank you so much for doing this. You've, a lot of us have been focused on the AI slash data center story from a badly informed tech perspective, trying to answer the question, you know, will machines become our masters? Is this the end of the human race? But there's another component to the story which may be bigger, and it has to do with the physical world, the demands of AI on that world, and the short-term implications for the rest of us because of the construction of these data centers. And you have been on this more than anyone I know. So can you just frame the way that you're looking at AI and data centers? Why is it important?

• 1:12Speaker 02

  Well, I think it's so important for these communities. You're seeing, if we step back, there's so much math involved in this. And, you know, I always say that they're, like, every real estate story is all local. So it's all, you know, different what's happening in New York from what's happening in Texas right now, what's happening in Quincy, Washington, or Homer City, Pennsylvania. Like, it's all different. But it's all of the same, you know, it's all of the same animal, so to speak. And so we are, I don't even think we're at the beginning of this because there's so much discussion about AI. Just flip on CNBC or Bloomberg or anything. It's AI everywhere. We're going to hit an AI bubble. We haven't even started this build-out for AI data centers

• 1:57Speaker 02

  across the United States. And I honestly think we're at the precipice of a major transformation for humanity. And we won't know for years whether it's good or bad. There were studies done on Google, the Google effect, back in like 2011. You know, our kids like outsourcing their ability to search for things to Google. Like, think about how funny that is now in hindsight, all these years later. But we are, I think, at the beginning of this build-out. We haven't even begun to see the thousands of data centers and the way that this is going to change humanity for good and bad. And I think that anyone who says they know for sure doesn't know. And I think a lot of these companies that are spending $500 billion,

• 2:41Speaker 02

  we just got word that Nvidia is going to take out credit in order to build out massive amounts of infrastructure. So this is like a new phase of this now, not even their own money. It's going to be a credit story, borrowing money at enormous sums from Wall Street in order to build out this infrastructure. So just at like a micro level, if you just think about communities and what it means to just you and I, it means, right now, increased prices for kilowatt hours just to run your home. It means increased prices at the grocery store just to get additional groceries because the cost of everything has gone up. It means water shortages across the United States. We're already seeing it.

• 3:25Speaker 02

  We're already seeing it, its effects on ranchers. So it's so big, and there's so many pieces of this. You've got the robotics piece of this, which is the human robotics layer. So AI will, of course, be involved in every level of robotics, which is going to be as, if you listen to Elon Musk, and I believe he's a smart, very smart person, he says that his Tesla robotics division is going to be the biggest product in human history, his Optimus Robots. So if you take him at his word, or even if half of his word is true, and that's just one company, the human robotics element of this is going to be absolutely massive. And of course, then the AI, the compute power that will be layered inside of that hardware,

• 4:09Speaker 02

  is, the requirements for that are going to be astronomical. And that's just one piece of it. Every company that exists right now, just about every company is incorporating AI. It's like the AI that you don't see that I think is, in many ways, the most like invasive of all of this. So for instance, Zoom. Like, you and I are talking right now on Zoom.

• 4:32Speaker 01

  Right.

• 4:32Speaker 02

  Well, they've recently sort of shifted to becoming really an AI productivity company in many ways. That's their focus now. Forget being just like, hey, we're going to have a meeting over Zoom. Now they've added in a take notes feature, which can use AI and basically take notes for you during your meeting. And now their focus is AI. So AI being built into everything you can think of.

• 4:53Speaker 01

  Let me ask you to pause and ask you a question for a second. So just to take Zoom as an example. So Zoom, again, being this software program that allows people to speak on video conferencing anywhere, between each other, anywhere in the world. Basically, what they're saying is we're going to transcribe every conversation, and that's going to be helpful as a productivity device somehow. But what happens to the data? So the substance of your conversation is now on a Zoom server. Do you have control over what's done with that data? With your words, with that information?

• 5:31Speaker 02

  I mean, I think this idea that you have control over any of your data is a joke. You can ask companies to delete your data. But of course, when the FBI then wants to subpoena that data, suddenly it manages to show back up again. So wait, I thought, you know, like, that you could just like delete that stuff. Or Google tells you that, hey, after 30 days, we delete this stuff. It's all there. It's fractals. It's always going to be there. So Zoom, you know, you opting into this, the take notes feature, and I don't know the full backend of what Zoom's operation looks like, but most of it is all built on Amazon Web Services. Most of it is built on Amazon's infrastructure, from Palantir to Flock Safety. You know, they'll tell you that they've got their own proprietary layer of what they do with that data, but all of it's built on like Amazon infrastructure

• 6:15Speaker 02

  and this sort of this backend infrastructure. So where is that data going? It's living in these data centers and being built out at a clip that we've never seen before. Like, so right now, there are about 809, give or take, a few data centers being built right now. There's about 4,800 of them that are currently built. There's another, I think, 3,900 that are in, that have been projected to be built over the next year, doubling the amount of data centers in the United States. And they're not getting smaller. They're getting bigger. They're getting more massive. Take, for instance, like the Project Stargate in Texas, in Abilene, Texas.

• 6:59Speaker 02

  Massive, massive infrastructure that Trump, of course, was championing. And a lot of this was opened up, we shouldn't forget, at the very beginning of the Trump presidency with all these executive orders, so that you could start building a data center without even getting environmental permits. So you could start the construction. So if, like, the redacted news, you know, data center wants to get started, I could go out tomorrow, say, buy some land, and I could start this construction, local permits, and get started. Forget the EPA requirements, like, how much pollutants will be spun off as a result of the diesel generator backups or the water influx or any of the particulate matter that will be spun off as a result of the center, the water usage, all of that. Don't worry about it because now the EPA doesn't care.

• 7:44Speaker 02

  You can get those, you can already start construction. And then, of course, on top of that, you have Trump's AI litigation team, which is pretty funny when you look at it. So the Department of Justice has built like an AI litigation team to go out to different states. Like, you can see where the priorities are. So if there's a state or a community that says, we don't want data centers in our backyard, or we're putting onerous rules in place and regulations in our backyard because we don't want these things here, well, here comes Trump's Department of Justice and the AI litigation team to town, not staying at a Best Western when they arrive. And they're going to start to look at your community and sue you for onerous regulations

• 8:27Speaker 01

  What?

• 8:28Speaker 02

  against data centers. This was part of that executive orders and executive actions at the very beginning of Trump's presidency. So glad we have an AI litigation team in place.

• 8:36Speaker 01

  Wait, so the Department, our Department of Justice, which I thought we owned as citizens, is now working on behalf of private companies, which we do not own, in order to force communities to subsidize those private companies?

• 8:52Speaker 02

  Yes. So under the Attorney General, under this AI litigation team, this task force, will go out and they'll see, hey, you know, did, you know, did this community in upstate New York put in place some toxic diesel particulates zoning law that's not going to allow this data center to be built because they'll need backup diesel generators? And when they kick on every 30, you know, every few days to test the diesel backup, and it's going to shoot off these particulates and so forth, we don't want that here. We don't want it polluting our air and our waterways, by the way. So that's what this task force will look at.

• 9:31Speaker 01

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• 13:41Speaker 02

  And there's going to be, you know, the loopholes that'll be used here, and we'll see what this data AI litigation task force does. It's like the, you know, the white supremacy task force or the antisemitism task force that'll be deployed across the United States. So it'll be interesting to see like what loopholes are employed. But good news is like 500 or so different communities have already fought back against this. There was a friend of the show, Derek Bros, and Hakim Anwar put on a day of action on the beginning of August against these data centers. So people around the country to come out and say, we don't want these things in our backyard, at least kind of drawing attention to them. We don't want the noise. We don't want the pollution.

• 14:22Speaker 02

  And there's so much just misinformation and there's fear about all of these data centers right now, and there's just a lot of, there's just a lot of BS that's kind of floating around about how these things operate. Maybe we could talk about it if you want to kind of dive a little more deeply.

• 14:39Speaker 01

  Well, I want to dive very deeply into it. I mean, you've already, you know, we're 10 minutes into this. You've already shocked me. So I had no idea that was happening. And, you know, if you were to have dinner with me, I would pretend to be highly informed on everything, but obviously that's not true because I didn't even know this. I didn't know that there was a Department of Justice AI Task Force designed to pummel communities into accepting things they don't want, which is to say, taking sovereignty from American citizens. So, um, yeah, I do want to go into great it up. So tell me about the misconceptions or, as you said, misinformation.

• 15:15Speaker 02

  Well, for one thing, there's, if you listen to Wall Street or you listen to the people that, the sycophants, you know, like on CNBC or the people that love to have these CEOs on their shows and, you know, access journalists, you know, who love to have these CEOs on their shows and kind of promote AI data center build outs and all the new technology that they're rolling out. And so some of this technology is, is good, right? There is actual good cooling technology that's emerging from companies like Vertiv, VRT, which instead of using water that would cool it with using evaporation technology, which is the biggest, one of the biggest problems. Forget the electricity piece of this for a second. That's a big, that's the other big part of the story.

• 15:59Speaker 02

  By the way, this energy, you know, it's like you can, it's like you can rob Peter to pay Paul. We're not using water. Oh yeah, but you're using the energy now, the electricity to use dry cooling to cool. Okay. So it's just like, it's like the shell game. You say moving things around a board, you know? So when you see these like CEOs come on CNBC or Bloomberg or whatever and tell you how they've solved the cooling problem because they don't need water. Eh, okay. Now what about the massive amounts of electricity that you need now to use dry cooling? So it's, anyway, it's a.

• 16:29Speaker 01

  Well, it takes resources to make things. That's just the bottom line. It takes resources to make things and the supply of resources is finite. So anyone, it doesn't mean you shouldn't make things. You should, but every act of creation is a trade-off. So it's not clear why we have to lie about that. Let's just be honest about it. But anyway, so, but to the question of water, can you go into that? How much water, exclusive of this new and promising technology you just described, but like in general, how much water does it take to cool a dating data center?

• 17:01Speaker 02

  Hundreds of millions of gallons. And most, let's be clear, most of the data centers are using this evaporative cooling system. And I mean, by a huge percentage. So, you know, that's great that we've got some new technology out there that uses cooling plates and it keeps it in on like a closed loop. So the water is like right up against the, the computers, the GPUs, and then it kind of flows through and it gets cooled almost like by an air conditioning unit and then comes back a little cooler. But still, that excess heat needs to go somewhere, right? So it pushes off somewhere. It's not, but the water usage, yes, you're limiting that. But on most of them overwhelmingly, it's evaporative cooling. And so you're, it's all just being wasted. Hundreds of millions of gallons.

• 17:45Speaker 02

  If you think about an average American home, about, you know, 200 gallons to like run an American home, you're 300 million gallons or 500 million gallons of water just for these data centers. And we're talking like small data centers. So these communities are already seeing, they're already pressed. And if you go to the desert southwest or you move out towards, you know, Colorado, Nevada, Utah, Wyoming, a lot of the ranchers in these areas are at their limit with their ability to get water to just feed their heads of cattle. So everything is so dry. I just interviewed a rancher who's dealing with this right now. So in order to get permits to pull, you know, to pull water to feed their heads of cattle,

• 18:29Speaker 02

  they have to go to the city, the municipality, they have to get those rights. But most of those permits are already used. Like they're not, there's no like new permits, just like sitting there for Bob Rancher to come grab. So they're already tapped, tapping into these aquifers. I mean, requiring them to go down, pull out any kind of water they can from these aquifers, right? So those are already tapped a lot in the west of the United States. And then on top of that, now you have these data centers that are coming in and all these ranchers are asking the question, how are they able to get water? Like we've applied for permits and we as ranchers are not allowed to get water, but, but they are? Where are they getting the permit? So they're, they're carving out these special permits for these ranchers, which is, I mean,

• 19:13Speaker 02

  excuse me, for these data centers, which is unbelievable on the, on its surface. And so these ranchers then are having to compete for what little water scraps are left to feed their head of cattle, which brings up a larger question about wanting to decimate the beef industry, of course. And you have, you know, 68 million heads of cattle. How many of those are being whittled away, whittled away, whittled away? And then you've got wildfires out west on top of that, which is destroying the grazing land, so they don't have enough water for that. But the data centers are fine to get these water rights somehow. People should ask questions about that. Like how are they able to get these carve-outs to tap into these aquifers in ways that these ranchers are not? It's very interesting. So.

• 19:55Speaker 02

  The misinformation right now is this idea that, well, now we've got this new sort of liquid cooling setup, and so therefore we're not using as much water. And that is the case in some, in some cases with some of this new technology. But a lot of that is even built out yet. But you're seeing like these companies like Vertiv like exploding. I think they're even more valuable now, like share price, not more valuable, but like more than Amazon, because they're selling these, these cooling technologies that they can use in these data centers. So that's just one piece of it. But the majority of these data centers are using an enormous amount of water that we simply don't have.

• 20:36Speaker 02

  And you're having these communities now fighting over it in order to, you know, homeowners who are having to deal with this now. And of course, the other big piece of this is the smart meters. So just take, for example, like Aurora, Colorado, not too far from me, where they implemented these smart water meters. So they can monitor at every 15 minute increments, like the amount of water that you're using as a, you know, as a, as a private citizen compared to the water that's being used from these data centers. I don't know what sort of metering system they have on these data centers, but there's a, there's a massive data center called QTS in Aurora, Colorado. Massive, huge.

• 21:18Speaker 02

  And in that, in that setup, they've got, they're using an enormous amount of water. And the homes around Aurora, Colorado are using now these smart meters to monitor how much irrigation, how much water they're using. And they've sent out thousands of notices to people that live there that, hey, you've used too much water, you're using too much water. And these smart meters are only going to increase across the United States. There's many communities that are now rolling out these water smart meters in order to make sure that you're not using enough water. But are those same, are those same, you know, municipalities sending out notices to the data centers to let them know how much water they're using?

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• 24:30Speaker 01

  I'm confused. I mean, so they're, one of the long-term and distressing trends in the United States is the explosion in population in places that don't have the resources to sustain that population. So I'm thinking Clark County, Nevada, Maricopa County, Arizona, you know, Phoenix, Vegas, Denver, parts of California, like they don't have the water for this number of people. So we know this, no one seems to care. This is going to be a huge issue going forward. But there are other parts of the United States, Upper Midwest, for example, that have a ton of water and not a lot of people. So why would you ever build a data center in Colorado, for example, which already doesn't

• 25:15Speaker 01

  have the resources to support the people? Like, who's making these decisions and why? Do you have any idea? Why, why is every data center not being built on Lake Superior?

• 25:22Speaker 02

  Well, because the money. So just take, for example, I believe it's probably the money, but a lot of it is these data center build outs now, well, a couple of pieces. I'll take the, I'll take Quincy, Washington. I think it's an interesting sort of anecdote of a story. So the propaganda around Quincy, Washington is that data centers saved this town. Data centers came in, used the hydroelectric power here and the influx, the tax basis now, well, I think it was like three different centers that were built, three different data centers. The amount of influx of like a 56% increase in taxes flew into like Quincy, Washington.

• 26:07Speaker 02

  So they built $120 million new school, they built all new sewer infrastructure inside of Quincy, Washington, parks, water slide parks for the kids, crime has dropped, and they point, and they blame it specifically on the data centers. So all of the money that flows into these communities from their taxes is exorbitant. So they don't want to turn away from this additional tax revenue.

• 26:34Speaker 01

  Right.

• 26:35Speaker 02

  In these communities. And that to me is, it's always the money, right? That's at the heart of it, is clearly, it's clearly the tax revenue that's coming in. The other piece of this is that I think these companies are telling, I say they're telling lies, but they're certainly, they're certainly structuring these deals in a very interesting way, which is we will, we're not going to pull from your resources. So we're not going to tap the electricity in your town. We're not going to tap the excess water. We figured that out, which is, which is laughable, because there's always the spillover effect of these things. It's not self-contained. But a lot of these new data centers being built profess to be self-contained, which is,

• 27:18Speaker 02

  we're going to produce our own power, so you don't have to worry about it. So we're going to use these SMRs, these small nuclear reactors, these modular nuclear reactors. There's companies like New Scale Technology, which are, you know, exploding these like, so Amazon can put a nuclear reactor at one of these data centers, a small nuclear one. We don't need to rely on Three Mile Island, which by the way, is being revitalized right now in order to power data centers. I know if people recall the fun that happened at Three Mile Island, but so that's being revitalized right now for data centers. So they can build self-contained power modular nuclear technology. The other story, and I was speaking to a source at Amazon, who, it was just crazy

• 28:02Speaker 02

  to hear what their build out looks like right now, and said that when they go in, they're looking at like defunct coal plants or other power plants that are nearby these data centers. And if they can't get the power they need from the local community, they just buy up the, like the coal-powered plant or the, you know, the, the other, the other power plants that were there. They buy them up and then they revitalize them, bring in, you know, a couple thousand people, build it out to a new, a new energy complex. And then, oh, you think, oh, that's great. So now that, that coal plant that you're taking over, which is defunct, it closed

• 28:47Speaker 02

  three years ago, or four years ago, or 10 years ago, under regulations and onerous regulations and so forth, you're going to revitalize it and then the community will benefit. No, no, no, no, no. They're going to get all the power. So they're not giving any of this power back to the community. The coal plants specifically, and the ones in Nevada and Colorado where Amazon is coming in and building these facilities, they're buying them up and revitalizing them, and they're turning them into natural gas facilities. So that it's far cleaner, they don't have to deal with the coal regulations, and then they will use all of that energy. Oh, okay. So then, then it won't have an effect on the community then, right? So then, energy prices won't have gone up in the community. Oh, no, no, no.

• 29:31Speaker 02

  In fact, the sources I've spoken to at Amazon said, absolutely, the energy costs will go up in those communities, and they already have. So, but, so they're self-contained. Why are my energy costs going up? It's because the spillover effect of it all and the grid capacity and everything else. So you're already seeing this across the country. People without data centers, even in their backyard yet, are seeing increases to their kilowatt hours, their per kilowatt hours upwards of 12, 13, 14% just in prices. We in Colorado have already seen prices skyrocket, even without the massive data center build outs, because it's future projections. So it's, it's the auction process of electricity.

• 30:15Speaker 02

  So the future projections on the auction process believe that they will be over capacity. They believe, and local communities are saying, expect blackouts. If I could, I'll give you an example. Homer City, Pennsylvania, Western Pennsylvania, near where I went to college out there, University of Pittsburgh and that whole area in Western PA. This is a really interesting anecdote because Homer City, they, you know, their energy prices have already increased, but they're building this, they've, the data centers that have come in there have revitalized the old coal plants that are there and were shut down in 2023.

• 30:56Speaker 02

  Now they're building this massive Homer City energy complex on top of it, converting it to natural gas, but the people of Homer City don't get the benefit of it. They don't get any of that. It's going to go to the data center build out and I think the mayor, the other members of the local city council have already seen those prices go up and have said that we will expect blackouts. This is Pennsylvania. This is in Texas where you get incredible heat waves, you know, you'll still get heat waves and things, but not like Texas or Arizona. So expect blackouts, like over the next few years, our grid cannot handle this.

• 31:37Speaker 02

  And so the people of this area that live in the surrounding area can, can expect to see their homes affected by this and blackouts that will unfold in these, in these neighborhoods. And that, again, that's Pennsylvania, Western Pennsylvania, nowhere near like Abilene, Texas or Arizona. So these things are very real for people and the costs that will be passed on to the consumers where energy costs are already skyrocketing is, is very real. I know the Trump administration says, well, we're putting this cap on as part of this, you know, this AI build out, we're putting this cap on it so that we're going to make these producers pay that. But there's no evidence that they are, like we are already paying more for electricity already.

• 32:22Speaker 02

  I don't know what it is for you, like in Maine, like if you've seen it there, if you know, like what data center, because it seems like I'm looking at the data center map in Maine is like very minimal for build outs from what I can tell. But so you have the future projections of costs of this energy build out that are already affecting people.

• 32:40Speaker 01

  I mean, I guess I'm really, I'm struck by so many parts of the story, but the one that I'm fixated on maybe most is the total powerlessness of the people who live in this country to have any effect on any of this at all. Going back to what you said at the outset of the conversation about the Department of Justice targeting anyone who complains about this or tries to slow it down. Have there been, I don't think most people are for this. I don't think people understand exactly what the purpose of it is. I don't think there's been much of an attempt to convince us that this will improve our lives, which is to say the technology itself, AI data centers, is that, how is that good for me? How does it make this a better country for my kids?

• 33:24Speaker 01

  No one's spending any time trying to convince us that it is. It's all scaring the crap out of people, maybe for good reason, maybe not. I really don't know what the motive is. You talk to an AI person, someone developing AI and they spend very little time telling you how this is going to cure cancer and a whole lot of time telling you how it may end humanity. So it's like, I don't really get what's going on here, but I know that people aren't for it. Has anybody had any success in protecting their own communities from destruction by this?

• 33:57Speaker 02

  I mean, maybe New York state is the only real story right now from a state level where you have the state now banning the build out of data centers right now. So, and you know, you have Governor Abbott in Texas, who is now putting a one-year moratorium on data center build outs through an audit process. So you have to prove like your energy efficiency and all of that in order to be built out in Texas. But also I love, I love the hypocrisy there. So it's okay that we can have like massive child trafficking operations like happening right, right in the state of Texas and right under your nose and old Walmart facilities and thousands of children being trafficked and, but we're gonna, we're gonna audit data

• 34:42Speaker 02

  centers.

• 34:43Speaker 01

  Abbott has, has overseen the total destruction of, of Texas and it's, I don't, yeah, I'm not saying he's evil, he's just weak, but yeah, doesn't get the credit he deserves for that, but it'll be obvious in the next 10 years.

• 34:55Speaker 02

  But New York, I mean, so we'll see. I mean, I don't know, and I don't know what's going to happen in Texas. I mean, you have this Project Stargate project in Abilene, Texas, arguably the large, one of the largest data center build outs in the world in Project Stargate, one that President Trump has championed. So I wonder if there's going to be any pushback from his, the AI task force, you know, if anyone speaks out against that in the state of Texas. But New York, and I don't know how much of this is, you know, how, how, how much of this will continue and will New York be like the state that says, we're, we're done with data centers altogether, sorry, go, go someplace else. What will that look like? And I don't know.

• 35:39Speaker 02

  And I don't know if this will be rolled back pending some, hey, we now feel that they're self-sufficient, the power is self-sufficient, that they don't need to rely on us at all for energy, for water. And they've figured out the diesel generation backup so that it's not spilling off particulates and all of these other things. And now we can welcome them back to the state. You know, and then you have governments, you have local governments like in the state of Georgia, of course, who are going after and using eminent domain to seize land, just like you would to build a new highway, seize people's homes in order to build AI data

• 36:21Speaker 02

  centers, because it's a, as President Trump, as part of these executive orders, I mean, he, he was explicit that this is a national security issue for the United States of America. So this is another big piece of this. And I don't think enough people are talking about what the Trump administration just did even just a few weeks ago with the FCC ruling. I don't know, are you familiar with the FCC ruling?

• 36:41Speaker 01

  Totally ignorant as usual. And I'm also confused as to why this is a national security issue. I don't even know what that means. I mean, China, China, China, China, China, but okay. How is it a national security issue? What are you talking about? Do you have any clue?

• 36:55Speaker 02

  So, I mean, I guess if you look at, from a military perspective, to make sure that we have the AI infrastructure that can deal with the future of modern warfare, whether it's drone capabilities, robotics on the battlefield, it all comes back to war, of course. So to make sure that Palantir, you know, Palantir using AWS, it's not really public, but they really use a lot of Amazon Web Services as the backend of Palantir with their own sort of proprietary front end of all of this. Then you're building out all of these, these new government data centers that Amazon is helping build. And what's interesting about these data centers that Amazon is building for the military or for the Pentagon or the CIA is you've got like eight layers of security in these facilities.

• 37:39Speaker 02

  So that even if President Trump wanted to go through them, he has to go through like eight layers of like, you know, bio scanning and I don't know, it's like the movies where you walk through a corridor and one door opens and scans your eyeballs and.

• 37:52Speaker 01

  Get smart.

• 37:53Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. So like eight layers of this stuff in these facilities and Amazon builds this for the CIA and others. And as they get to a certain level of the build out, they basically hand the keys over to the guys on the inside and they say, we'll take it from here. And so then Amazon's like, okay, we built, you know, now if you call us, if you need us, and that's how this operates. And so they will only come back, I've learned, if there's like some sort of massive power outage or something like that, they have to come back in. But otherwise it's like the CIA then runs these facilities. And by the way, some of these facilities are being built kind of in plain sight, but inside of other facilities like Veterans Affairs buildings. So you think, oh, that's a Veterans Affairs building, but inside is a hidden, is a hidden

• 38:38Speaker 02

  operations data center inside of some of these facilities that I've learned as well, which is interesting. So a lot of these government buildings, you think on the outside are one thing, an IRS building, but on the inside is a, is a hidden, is a hidden data center for, for monitoring its citizens. So national security, the idea that we don't want China to have this AI layer for all of the data collection that we're doing in the United States, whether it's flock safety, I know that's the most like kind of public facing one right now, but that data goes somewhere and it goes through AWS, it goes through Amazon Web Services, the same way that Palantir does and all of it, and it needs to be stored somewhere. So it needs to be stored in these massive facilities, whether it's Nevada and other

• 39:20Speaker 02

  places and all of this data that's being collected on Americans from, you know, phone calls to email, everything that they're, they're using to scan and, and track us at this moment. And so they don't want China involved in this, of course, and that's the outwardly facing, you know, enemy. We don't want to use, we don't want any of their models, their AI models. We want to use our own models that are helped in, inside the United States and funded by the United States government or in part with large grants and so forth. So that's like the national security piece of this. So about a week ago, there's a story that really didn't get much attention, but it's

• 40:00Speaker 02

  huge and it's going to, it's going to further bring more AI build out and infrastructure into the United States in a huge way. And that is the FCC's ruling on hardware, basically the components for robotics cannot be built outside of the United States. So 65% of the component parts in your humanoid robots or robotics need to be built within the United States now. Well, Elon Musk, I mean, and Tesla and Optimus, like that's a huge, they're going to have to shift dramatically so that now instead of the, most of it being built in China, most of it will need to be built in the United States.

• 40:41Speaker 02

  The actuators, fingers for robot, all of that stuff needs to now be built in the United States, sixty-five percent of it. So that's another big piece of this war right now over AI between China. That's going to increase, though, to over eighty percent by the year twenty thirty. So that ruling is like, hey, get your stuff figured out now at sixty-five percent because it's going to go up to eighty percent. So all of this stuff will be built in the United States, or at least presumably it'll be built in the United States. And then this AI layer inside the United States is just going to grow. So speaking to sources at Amazon, they're, they're build out, they are sold out. This blew me away.

• 41:21Speaker 02

  They are sold out for eight, like if I wanted to, like, redacted news, my little crappy show, like if I wanted to build an AI data center and, or even just use a part of compute, like with Amazon Web Services for my show or something, or you wanted to do it with, with, with the Tucker Carlson network or something. Amazon has sold out through twenty thirty for capacity. Like, we want a portion of this data center to be devoted to whatever. Sorry, we're sold out for, through twenty thirty. And we don't have enough capacity now, and we have projected to be building out thousands of additional data centers in the next few years. So when I said at the beginning, we're not even at the beginning of this, and people

• 42:05Speaker 02

  are already talking about a bubble and this, no. And there's so many other pieces to this. I'm sorry, I'm just kind of rambling here, but all these ideas kind of fly into my head about how crazy this is because there's so many pieces of this. You have the robotics piece of this, you have the information layer, then you have like the factory piece of this, then you have the efficiency piece of this inside of these factories, then you have just the, the actual infrastructure to build out all of these different data centers, and then all of the companies surrounding those build outs. Like, this blew me away. I don't know if you've heard of United, United Rentals? Have you heard of this company?

• 42:46Speaker 01

  No.

• 42:47Speaker 02

  It's just one example. So when you think about Amazon goes in and builds a new data center, well, or Meta, or Google, or whomever, they hire, they don't like come in there and like change the community and like thousands of people get jobs. Like, people come in for like about eighteen months at most and they leave. So it's kind of like the gold rush or like, you know, St. Elmo's in Colorado, ghost towns, you know, they come in, they do what they need and then they leave. So they hire these companies to bring in caterpillar, earth digging machines, and United Rentals is one of those companies, right? So, and they're, they've got now sites in one thousand different locations. So, hey, United Rentals, we're building out a data center in Reno, do you have a location nearby you can bring earth diggers, movers, generators, backup generators, all

• 43:32Speaker 02

  of that? Yep, we got you down. And so then they'll come in, bring all that equipment, build it out, and then it leaves. That's just like one piece of the puzzle. Then you've got like the porta potties companies, like you've got so many pieces of this, this build out that's happening. And so people are like, well, it creates jobs temporarily, and a lot of those people come in for every job, they're not like creating new jobs every time, right? They're just, they just go to a location and they go to the next location, so not creating new jobs. And these data centers really only employ at the most around maybe fifty people, and even that number is dwindling. So, sorry, there's just so many pieces of this that it's, it's like, there's, and there's just like a lack of information out there about it, and it's, I just find it just so

• 44:16Speaker 02

  fascinating and frustrating and terrifying all at the same time.

• 44:19Speaker 01

  And maybe also a little bit silly. I mean, this is happening so fast, and as you've pointed out, it's so complex, and, but it's also so expensive that you have to ask like, well, what is this? I mean, it's an effort, obviously, to snap the control grid into place and, you know, eliminate dissent, got it. It's an effort to stay on par with China, got it. But it's also an investment opportunity for a lot of people, and it's the last hope of states like California, which have been completely hollowed out. I mean, the tax base in California is like disappearing, and so their hope is that AI is going to hit, this is all going to be incredibly profitable, and they'll be able to keep their welfare state afloat.

• 45:01Speaker 01

  Is this a good bet from a business perspective, or is it a bubble? And if it's the former, how exactly does it make money? I don't understand that part of it.

• 45:10Speaker 02

  Where's the revenue come from? Yeah, no, this is a great question. And so when people say we're in an AI bubble, they don't know what they're talking about, I believe.

• 45:19Speaker 01

  Right.

• 45:20Speaker 02

  When Mark Cuban says, you know, we're, we're building out so many of these data centers and we don't need them, and they're going to be turned into pickleball courts, I, I believe he doesn't know what he's talking about. From every source I've spoken to, we're nowhere, we're not even at the beginning of this, and the demand for compute is off the charts from different companies. So I don't know what he's talking about, like, these are going to be converted to pickleball courts. I think if anything, my theory, my theory is that these are going to be turned eventually, we don't need them, these, because they're cement and steel, these are going to be turned into for-profit prisons. That's just my theory, just throwing it out there. They're out in the middle of nowhere, they'll be converted, and we need them badly.

• 46:04Speaker 02

  Of course, the Trump administration loves the for-profit prison system, so I just think that that's a perfect transition, not pickleball courts. But anyway, so the, the, so right now, we're at the beginning of this, and I was going through earnings reports, trying to find over the past few weeks, the reason I say we're at the beginning of this, because I have not seen yet from companies on their earnings reports where they have pointed to the AI build out in their factories equalling a percentage of revenue, to answer your question. There's very few of them right now. But I believe that that wave is coming.

• 46:45Speaker 02

  So I think, and I'm not being hyperbolic about it, I really believe that the wave is going to, and that will increase the demand a hundred times. There are a few companies that have now said in some earnings, in small measure, their AI build out has increased revenue. So for, I'll give you an example, there's like a, an outdoor furniture company, and I was going through their reports, and they were explaining that with their AI layer that they built in, they were able to sort of, I don't know, bunch furniture together in a certain way that was more aesthetically pleasing at their stores? I don't know exactly, and they were able to increase revenue. It also increased the proficiency of their sales associates, so it didn't cost jobs,

• 47:29Speaker 02

  it actually increased their sales associates proficiency by like eighty-two percent, they claim, leading to about a fifteen percent increase in revenue. Might have the number slightly different, but you get the point, right? Like, they've been doing something the same way for thirty years, and then suddenly they add in this like AI efficiency layer, and suddenly they've increased their revenue by fifteen percent without, they didn't hire anybody new, they didn't build new factory or new warehouse, they just like bunched furniture together in a certain way that like increased something. Another company, I was looking at their earnings, they claimed that with the scrap metal, that

• 48:10Speaker 02

  they were able to save, like, they put in an AI efficiency layer in their metal processing facility in their factory, and when it would chop off pieces of metal, that would usually lead to about a hundred and twenty-nine million dollars in wasted scrap. But by putting in this AI efficiency layer, they were able to save almost all of that, like, saving hundreds of millions of dollars in not having like wasted scrap metal. So these are like small little anecdotes from like a few companies that have maybe shown some initiative with AI. And so if, if we see huge increases in efficiency and revenue, game over.

• 48:53Speaker 02

  Like, you know, there, there's no bubble. You know, like with the, the dot com bubble, there were people building like fake websites, you know, with, they didn't have anything, there was like nothing there, it was like fake. And there were so many greedy people who were building all these like fake websites, I remember it well, like pets dot com, you know, all these, whatever. And it was all just fake, and it was all greedy people. And so I don't know, I, I mean, I, I'm just going to say, I don't know. I don't know if, like, this is all greed, or if these companies who've been doing something a certain way for fifty years in their warehouse, suddenly they add in like this AI efficiency layer.

• 49:34Speaker 02

  And their revenue increases by 20%. Maybe they don't fire anybody. Maybe they actually hire more people. I don't know exactly. So anyone who says they know is, I just, I don't know. Maybe Elon knows. He seems to know.

• 49:48Speaker 01

  I just, yeah, I, and I'm the last person who would know. I'm happy to admit that. But whenever I see lemming like behavior, I suspect the cliff is near. You know, whenever, you know, every midwit you run across is saying the same thing about the future. I generally bet that's not what the future is going to look like. But, you know, maybe I'm the midwit. But I have noticed all of a sudden, when the guy from Shark Tank is like talking about stuff he doesn't understand. The future is data centers. I'm like, I think the future is probably not data centers, but you know, who knows? Maybe I'm just reactionary.

• 50:26Speaker 02

  No, can I say this? I think, I think the future is human connection. So I think one of the, I'm always a glass half full kind of person. I think one of the benefits of this, despite all of its downsides, is the human interaction layer. And you're already seeing it, actually. Restaurants are reporting that like, young people are coming in and they're not drinking. Number one, they don't, they, they don't drink alcohol. And they're coming in, they're bringing like a stack of like playing cards and they're just hanging out all night. Like, or a board game, they're bringing Scrabble, you know? And they're, and they don't bring their phones at all. And they just come in and are together.

• 51:06Speaker 02

  And I think there's going to be an insatiable desire for human interaction with this explosion of AI. Call it slop, call it fakery, whatever you want to call it. I think there's going to be a, really an insatiable desire for human connection and human interaction. And, and human content, you know, people to be able to say, I'd rather watch Tucker's show because it's real human beings having a conversation than the fake AI generated garbage that, you know, maybe Hollywood is putting out. So, you know, I think that's one maybe benefit. It's that among young people, you're seeing this shift and I, I hope that that's the case. I don't, I don't know.

• 51:48Speaker 02

  I'm just more troubled about how this is going to affect young people than anything. I see my kids, my son just turned 16 and, you know, and, and he's going to go into the trades. Because so many of these jobs are just being taken by AI. And they will be. And if you don't think that that's the case, you're fooling yourself. Yes, I know all these Wall Street types, the Shark Tank types are like, this is going to create way more jobs. And we don't know. Maybe they're right. And maybe there will be so many jobs created to help the AI efficiency layer or help the robots, you know, help the robots and all of this piece of it. I don't know that there's any evidence that that's true.

• 52:27Speaker 02

  I think most of the, the jobs that you can name, you can title yourself, I'm an accountant, I'm a pilot. I'm this, I'm that, are going to be replaced by AI. I mean, at what point soon will FedEx, all of their aircraft be run by AI instead of pilots? Or maybe because of a pilots' union, there'll be one pilot on board just to oversee the AI. But certainly won't be two, certainly won't be three. So if you're thinking about becoming a pilot, like when my son was, he's kind of like stepped back from that because like there's, that's going to, you're not going to make any money on that and you're not going to be able to, those jobs are going to disappear. You're already seeing it in the military. It's already happening.

• 53:09Speaker 02

  So going into the trades, I'm just concerned with my kids, you know, like, so my son going into electrical engineering and learning how to work with his hands and, and be able to do something meaningful. You know, I don't know. It's a, it's a scary time. I'm just really worried about the cognitive offload too for children. Yeah, I brought up the, I don't know if you remember that study back in, it was like 2011, that Google, the Google effect study? And, you know, it was the idea, how much are, are we outsourcing search and other things to Google? Instead of doing it ourselves? And the sort of idea of search offload or cognitive offload?

• 53:53Speaker 02

  And I'm sure you do it, I know I do it. It's like, oh, if I know I can just search for it and find it, then I don't need to store it up here.

• 54:00Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 54:01Speaker 02

  You know, it's like the Socrates, it's like what, Socrates and Plato, Socrates being worried about, we won't be able to remember things because we're not, you know, we're going to write everything down. You know? And the only reason we know that is because Plato wrote it down. But anyway, so that was the fear on the Google effect side. Now it's really transitioned to something else entirely with AI. Beyond just, oh, I don't need to remember it because I can search for it later and Google will just like surface that one page. But even with that, you had to go and do the research yourself. You had to click on the link. You had to read the book. You had to synthesize the information, you had to organize your thoughts. You had to reason.

• 54:45Speaker 02

  You had to write it down. So I can just think about college for myself, just having to get like five or six books on the topic. I remember writing a whole report on vanilla in Latin America. And I had to go to the special library at the University of Pittsburgh's campus that you had to go under like lock and key because these were old, rare books from like 150 years ago and had to sit in that library. I couldn't take them out because they were rare and I had to do all of this research on vanilla and all of this in Latin America. And after reading these like four or five books, I had to write, I had to synthesize my thoughts. I had to organize my thoughts, which I'm not very good at. It's something I've struggled with my whole life, but I've gotten better at it.

• 55:27Speaker 02

  Because I've been forced to do it, to write essays, to write, to reason, to think, to put all of these things down in a, in an argument or a narrative. Become a better writer just by writing over, over the years. And then present my paper and then, you know, get a C on the paper. It's pretty normal for me or get a B. But now kids are just outsourcing that fully. It's the cognitive offload where they're saying, hey, I'm in eighth grade, so write me, write me a paper as if an eighth grader wrote it about the fall of the Roman Empire. And don't make it sound like AI. So no amount of research, forget the Google effect. Now it's, I'm going to, you're going to do all the research for me.

• 56:12Speaker 02

  You're going to synthesize everything, you're going to organize everything. And then you're going to present it and I'm going to turn it in. And so what these studies have found recently is that kids are actually doing really well with their projects, with using AI. And they're turning in like great work. But then when they're tested on it, they fail because they, they have no memory of having done any of the work. They didn't sit in the library and research vanilla all afternoon, drinking, you know, big gulps. They, they just offloaded all of that. And so they're not remembering anything. And being tested on it, they don't, they can't recall anything. So I'm just, I'm really, really worried about, you know, that part of it.

• 56:56Speaker 02

  And what's going to happen to, to my kids, our kids going forward and our ability to have conversations, to reason, to think, to have debates, to present arguments, to support your arguments, organize your thoughts. That's where I'm, that's the real human piece of all of this.

• 57:18Speaker 01

  Well, that's kind of the question is what's, what's the purpose? I mean, does the machine serve the person or the person serve the machine? I think you could make a strong case. I think most people would make the case that for all the benefits of the internet over the last 30 years, it's been a, a net loss for humanity. We don't live in a more peaceful world. We don't live in a more stable world and we don't live in a smarter world, a wiser world. We don't. And probably many reasons for that, but the internet hasn't achieved its core promises. Peace, stability, knowledge, wisdom. That didn't work. So knowing that, why would you triple down on the effect with AI?

• 57:59Speaker 01

  And of course you wouldn't if the goal was to serve people. And you really do detect when you listen to technologists speak, that their orientation is totally different. Like it's like, so we have an obligation to serve technology. No one ever explains why, I guess because it's a god, maybe the only god. And so whether that means higher energy prices or less water or dumber, more suicidal children or whatever the result kind of inevitably will be, that's the price you pay to serve the machine. And it's like, that seems backward to me.

• 58:36Speaker 02

  It absolutely does. And I, you know, just sitting here thinking as you're saying that, like, have we had a net positive with the internet? And it's, it's hard, it's hard to argue that we have in any appreciable way. We're sitting in a, in a third world war right now.

• 58:54Speaker 02

  Think about how the internet moves markets and creates incredible anxiety. You hear this sort of like palpable feeling of anxiety across the United States. I think largely you could blame that on the internet. When people, you know, jump on X or jump on social media and they're fed these dopamine hits of 15 second videos. And they're just like, why did I do that to myself? You feel sort of transported. I, you know, just getting sucked into, you know, voyeuristic content with people getting arrested or whatever it is. It's just, it makes you feel awful. And I don't think that there's, you have influencers on escalators like filming themselves and like, what? This is what we want?

• 59:39Speaker 02

  Like, you know, this, that's why I'm encouraged that the, you know, younger people are saying, I don't want a smartphone anymore.

• 59:46Speaker 02

  The internet and smartphones, I think you could combine them and then add in this like AI layer on top of it. And you're just constantly online. So I don't know. I think you're going to see, maybe you're going to start to see more Amish communities pop up. You know, you're going to start to see like a pushback, sort of internet free zones.

• 1:00:04Speaker 02

  You know, do not bring your phones in here. I don't know how, I don't know how big those things will be. And I don't know what kind of pushback we'll have from, from people who've gone through it. Will we have sort of a moment where we all say enough is enough? We don't want this anymore.

• 1:00:21Speaker 02

  There are the arguments, well, maybe we shouldn't be connected in such a way to these, these AI models that are coming from China, that are coming from the United States, that are coming from OpenAI, Anthropic, et cetera. Get open source models that you can then store like on your own compute in your own house. That is, so you have like all of the wisdom self-contained.

• 1:00:47Speaker 02

  And I know there are like some libertarian friends of mine who believe that that's the way to go. It's like you have, you have all of this compute sort of living. I don't want to say like Hillary Clinton's style, like on your own servers in your house. But you're not relying on China, you're not relying on the government, you're not relying on these companies. You're relying on yourself. And if you want to do some deep research on a project, you have access to it because it lives on your own server in your house, disconnected from those people. I don't know. I don't have that.

• 1:01:12Speaker 01

  Without getting too far afield, however, I mean, I think one of the biggest things that's happened in technology in recent memory was the hacking of cold wallets and the theft of Bitcoin from cold wallets. And the promise of a cold wallet was it was disconnected from the internet. It was, it was wholly yours. No one could put a finger on it other than you. And that was the assurance that your Bitcoin was actually yours. And to so, to see that get hacked somehow, suggests that anything with an electrical impulse is not really under your control.

• 1:01:48Speaker 02

  Well, we even saw the story, was it three weeks ago? About the AI model that was offline, was not even connected to the internet. And managed to somehow connect and get all, and hack, jump online to hack and then jump back offline.

• 1:02:04Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:02:06Speaker 02

  And so, and then add in the robotics layer to this on top of it all, right? So the humanoid, the humanoid robot piece of this, where, you know, you're going to have this, you're going to have this in warfare, you're going to have humanoid robots. I mean, it's straight, it's, it literally is straight out of Terminator.

• 1:02:25Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:02:26Speaker 02

  You know, this is what's coming. And who can stop it? Is there going to be some sort of a kill switch and the ability to turn this stuff off? I don't think so. So I don't know, we're going to build compounds with, you know, corrugated, I don't know, steel walls and turrets on our houses now to protect us against the, the coming AI robot invasion. But we're seeing it on the battlefield already. And we already know that the US military is years ahead on this planning for where this is going. So I don't know, it's, to me, it's, this is the greatest bizarre, most bizarre and biggest transformation in human history that we're watching right now unfold before us.

• 1:03:10Speaker 01

  Yep. Yep. I mean, I hate to say it, a lot of flawed people with true ideas out there. But Ted Kaczynski did call this 30 years ago. And because he was crazy and violent and killed innocents, we ignored it. But we shouldn't have, because he was, you know, he was on to something, I would say. Clayton Morris, thank you for that really informed and kind of amazing rundown of where we're going. I'm grateful.

• 1:03:40Speaker 02

  My pleasure. It's scary. Let's hang, let's hang out and have a human, human conversation without AI.

• 1:03:46Speaker 01

  I can't wait. Great to see you.

• 1:03:49Speaker 02

  Thanks.

• 1:03:50Speaker 01

  Thanks, man.