The Codeberg Situation

We dive deep into the controversy surrounding Codeberg's decision to ban generative AI projects. They analyze the platform's reasoning, from hardware strain and infrastructure costs to the potential breakdown of community trust and the "slop" of low-effort pull requests. The discussion expands into the philosophy of coding, the "Amish chair" analogy for handmade software, and whether platforms like Codeberg are protecting the future of human craftsmanship or being "left behind" by the AI revolution. Along the way, they touch on everything from Boston accents and steak-cooking debates to the hidden patterns in LLM-generated humor and the "Interstellar" corn crisis. [Sponsor] Sentry: Catch, trace, and fix bugs across your entire stack. Use code: prime for $100 in free sentry credits → https://trm.sh/sentry

• 0:00Speaker 00

  No, Prime said he could walk back on at Netflix and I said that that is not, that's not a good situation, right? Like, just because I could walk on to my local, like, high school varsity team doesn't mean that they were gonna win state champs, okay?

• 0:14Speaker 01

  Okay, we're not, we're not going for state championships here. We're just going on steady, we're going for steady paycheck. We're going for steady paycheck. The bar's low.

• 0:21Speaker 00

  Steady paycheck. That's a respectable goal, Trash. That's a respectable goal.

• 0:31Speaker 02

  I like how TJ is just hating on my very reasonable and respectable goals.

• 0:36Speaker 01

  What do you mean you want steady income, idiot?

• 0:39Speaker 02

  He's stupid idiot.

• 0:41Speaker 00

  Then why do you start streaming?

• 0:43Speaker 01

  Well, technically, if you leave Prime, then everything just falls apart. There's a, there's a lot of downstream, uh, implications there.

• 0:49Speaker 00

  That's true. Now, I have no effect here.

• 0:52Speaker 02

  Alright.

• 0:54Speaker 00

  I have been kind of brutal on X lately, too. I was thinking about putting in blockers for my own tweets for us to read, but I didn't know if that was allowed.

• 1:01Speaker 01

  What was that? Like, get yourself a ring first, kid?

• 1:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, I know.

• 1:05Speaker 02

  Oh my gosh. Okay, Casey, here, I gotta, I gotta-

• 1:09Speaker 00

  Can you show it to chat, please?

• 1:10Speaker 03

  Oh, I saw it. I already saw this. I saw it.

• 1:15Speaker 01

  I forgot, what was the original post?

• 1:17Speaker 02

  We're gonna, we're gonna bring it up either way. Oh, don't worry, we'll get the original. We'll get the original. Um...

• 1:23Speaker 00

  I, also, for added context for this, which is unaware for everybody who saw this tweet, but good lore, because when I told Kayleen about this tweet, uh, she was like, "Oh, is that the guy that we were making fun of for not having a girlfriend a while ago?" Cause he was sad of- Yeah, it was. Yes. We, he was like, "I went to a party and a girl said my arms were too big." And I said generational fumble, basically, and we, we were giving him a hard time. And then this, this came up. So, Prime, go ahead. Why don't you take it away?

• 1:58Speaker 02

  Alright, so, creatine, as his name, literally, his name is creatine cycles, you can imagine. "Dudes will be skinny and be concerned with open source versus closed source models. Bro, you're worried about the wrong weights." By the way, banger tweet. That's a good tweet.

• 2:12Speaker 03

  I love, I love this tweet. I love this tweet. It's fantastic. No complaints. I don't know why you're picking on this guy, TJ. That's a great tweet.

• 2:21Speaker 02

  Because I love him. TJ comes in with, "Guy has a girlfriend for three hours and starts posting like this. Win a ring before you talk, kid." Bru- brutal mugging. I don't know what the, I don't know what the meme is called, but it's that one guy that's just like, brutal, savage, wrecked. Like, that is what happened there.

• 2:42Speaker 04

  Wow, what do you say after that one? Brutal, savage, wrecked. Absolutely taken down.

• 2:47Speaker 00

  That's an old Dota 2 meme.

• 2:48Speaker 02

  That meme. That, that's what just happened right there. Absolutely destroyed. Poor creatine.

• 2:54Speaker 01

  He was, he was at the, in San Francisco, right?

• 2:58Speaker 00

  Yep, we just did a podcast with him. And Prime, I'm not gonna do any spoilers, but Prime just showed up a lot of different people. Oh, nice, we're doing meme review? Yes!

• 3:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, we're doing another meme review. TJ's been on a heater lately when it comes to puns. Why is...

• 3:16Speaker 03

  Alright, go ahead. I think, on the last one, though, I did wanna say one thing.

• 3:20Speaker 05

  Here we see the elusive programmer, a simple creature that spends most of its time working alone, often in darkness. But what's this? Someone being wrong on the internet? Our coder springs into action, reaching top speeds of 120 words per minute before flash. A light mode website, the natural enemy of these code lovers, stuns our friend. The chase is called off. We'll have to get them next time.

• 3:43Speaker 05

  When not on their computers, they can spend hours drawing crude symbols on something they call whiteboards. Researchers have discovered thousands of dialects, often with more than a dozen used than a single office. However, no linguist has yet deciphered what their purpose is.

• 3:59Speaker 05

  Vain creatures, their bodies have evolved over a millennia to be able to sit in unusual postures while looking at themselves online. This will often last for many hours, using the excuse they're waiting for code review, depressed to why they're so inactive. And finally, after a long day of accomplishing very little, are keyboard warriors ready for bed? Quick read and it's lights out.

• 4:22Speaker 05

  Goodnight, little coder.

• 4:26Speaker 02

  So how do I sleep so well at night? Well, I have Sentry to help me crush those bugs. And I'm not, I'm not talking about, like, little teen-tanny South Dakota bugs that die in the winter. I'm talking about big, mean jungle bugs. And I'm not scared of any of them, by the way, just, but I can squash those bugs with Sear by Sentry.

• 4:46Speaker 03

  The only thing I have to, probably will have to add to this entire discussion, and it's not very good. I wanted to find out who the guy was that you were, that you were mugging there, TJ.

• 4:56Speaker 00

  Oh, Jaden?

• 4:57Speaker 03

  I clicked on, I clicked on it, and the only thing I saw was, like, him with some other dudes making a steak? And it was not how you make a steak. I was like, okay, you guys need to, like, go to cooking school or something, cause like, finish in the oven, my man. Like, do not, like, this is gonna be, like, this is gonna be-

• 5:19Speaker 01

  Finish in the oven? Wait a minute.

• 5:21Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. You finish in the oven, for sure, man. Like, I cook a lot of steak.

• 5:26Speaker 02

  It depends, well, Casey, right, it depends on the thickness of the, the cut and all that. You don't have to finish in the oven if you have, say, you're doing a, a ribeye, but it's only like an inch thick. I mean, three minutes each side on a good cast iron pan heated to 500 degrees, like,

• 5:41Speaker 01

  Charcoal, baby. I need a charcoal.

• 5:43Speaker 02

  What are you talking about, Casey? You're gonna have a nice, perfect pink throughout the whole thing with a good three-minute sit with tinfoil on it.

• 5:49Speaker 01

  Hold on, don't listen to Prime. Prime posted a steak one day and it was like a gray steak. And it was like, what is that?

• 5:55Speaker 02

  That was my first steak ever cooked. Now my steaks are awesome.

• 5:58Speaker 03

  I, I am, I am a big fan of extremely controlled cooking, so like, I never, pretty much never, cook a steak without an in-stake thermometer, because otherwise you do not nail it. You do not nail it, because there's differences, like, unless you have exactly the same steak as last time, you will get a slightly wrong, you know, slightly wrong cook if you're not paying close attention, so.

• 6:23Speaker 02

  I think you're wrong. I think you're wrong. I think the variation gives spice of life, okay?

• 6:28Speaker 00

  Well, obviously, the, the solution to this is when we do an in-person one, we'll also record each of you guys making a steak, and then me and Trash will blind taste test which one is better.

• 6:42Speaker 02

  By the way, we're gonna, are we doing this in September?

• 6:45Speaker 03

  I don't know, are we?

• 6:47Speaker 01

  That's like next month.

• 6:48Speaker 03

  I thought we said October, October at Halloween was the last time I heard anything.

• 6:53Speaker 01

  Well, we're definitely doing a Halloween one. We need to figure that out. That's all I'm saying.

• 6:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's a good point, Trash.

• 6:58Speaker 03

  Trash wanted to go to a haunted house, right?

• 7:00Speaker 01

  Dude, ready to drive? I can drive it. I can drive this.

• 7:04Speaker 03

  Go to a haunted house.

• 7:05Speaker 02

  Okay, okay, we'll, we'll figure this out. Um...

• 7:09Speaker 00

  But doing a steak cookoff and me and Trash will judge. I love this idea.

• 7:14Speaker 01

  We can do it in a haunted house, you know?

• 7:16Speaker 03

  Maybe the steaks are haunted.

• 7:18Speaker 01

  Two birds, one stone, you know?

• 7:21Speaker 00

  Great.

• 7:21Speaker 02

  Alright. Well, this was absolutely illuminating. Let's get back to the stand-up.

• 7:26Speaker 00

  Wait, but Prime, you didn't do my second one. You didn't do my second, my second joke.

• 7:30Speaker 02

  True, true, true, true.

• 7:31Speaker 00

  We just brought it up and then didn't go all the way there, so.

• 7:33Speaker 02

  Alright, so, for those that don't know, Nate McGrady used to be an engineer at X and now currently is an engineer over at Versal. And he says, "Why is soldering so hard?" And TJ responds with, "God gives the hardest battles to as tough as solder's."

• 7:45Speaker 03

  Yep, yep, it's pretty good. It's pretty good.

• 7:47Speaker 02

  That's pretty good. That is really good. Completely underrated tweet, by the way. This, this should, this should have a thousand, minimum.

• 7:55Speaker 00

  Well, yours has two and a half thousand-ish, so I mean-

• 8:00Speaker 02

  God, it's crazy that I should not have ratioed you on this. Like, right, I should not have been allowed to ratio.

• 8:05Speaker 00

  I just wanted the joke, uh, to get out to more dads everywhere. I, I don't need the likes at the end of the day. It's just making sure that dad jokes are still represented out on, on the timeline.

• 8:17Speaker 03

  That, which will indirectly increase the ratio of, like, LLMs learning dad jokes. Like, we want LLMs to make a lot of dad jokes in the future, and if we don't get these dad jokes into the timeline prevalently, the LLMs will not understand that they're very important and should be made frequently.

• 8:34Speaker 02

  I'm not sure if they can, honestly, I'm not sure if they can. We've been doing some experiments and, like, the word "wacky", 100% of the time, LLMs will go, "Oh, you want something wacky? A librarian lighthouse milking the sky." It's the same ti- it's like almost the same thing every single time.

• 8:52Speaker 03

  It, it says that specific combination of things?

• 8:54Speaker 02

  It's always milking something. It involves a cartographer or a librarian or a lighthouse and something is flooded.

• 9:00Speaker 00

  Prove it. Prove it.

• 9:02Speaker 03

  You found like a, a collapse in the latent space.

• 9:05Speaker 02

  Are you really? Do you really want me to prove it?

• 9:08Speaker 00

  Prove it.

• 9:09Speaker 01

  I got chippity on right now. What, what's the prompt?

• 9:12Speaker 02

  Guys, guys, here we go. We're doing it right now? We're doing it right now? Fine, fine, fine, fine, fine, fine, fine. Here we go, I'm gonna give you guys, "It takes a moment, it takes a moment."

• 9:20Speaker 03

  It takes a village.

• 9:22Speaker 02

  It takes a village to create an idiot. So here we go.

• 9:27Speaker 02

  Alright, here we go. So I'm launching Steam for just a quick second. Don't worry, a chat already knows about what's gonna be going down on Friday. So here's a quick Bellatro. Alright.

• 9:37Speaker 00

  Oh, this is why you've been seeing this. Okay.

• 9:40Speaker 02

  Okay, so one of the things we've made in Bellatro is called charades. And the charades is like, pick some wacky, you know, cartoon, whatever. It uses the term wacky. And by using the term wacky, it is the same charade almost universally. So here we go. Here comes the charade. And the charade, of course, it's a lighthouse. My guess is it's milking the sky. Watch this. Watch this. Lighthouse milking the sky.

• 10:07Speaker 00

  Nobody knows what's happening right now, by the way. It's not even clear that ChatGPT is involved in this situation, okay?

• 10:14Speaker 02

  That's fine. That's fine. We're not even gonna tell. We're just, I'm just proving to you guys. Antique lighthouse keeper milking a cloud during an eclipse. I I absolutely called some part of it. I got 11% malt. So for those that don't know, what happened there is I played a quick game of charades with ChatGPT, generating a sweet image for me to be able to look at and then guess what it was thinking. And that image, of course, was this right here, which was that, uh, which was the lighthouse. I could tell it was milking, because there's this small little arm going up to right here. Now, as far as the eclipse goes, I really don't see the eclipse in this situation. But, well, you know.

• 10:48Speaker 03

  I, I have a question. Sorry. Why is it Bellatro skin? Like, why did Bellatro have to come up?

• 10:54Speaker 00

  As I say, Prime.

• 10:56Speaker 03

  Why couldn't you just type it into a normal prompt? Like, what were? Do you have your ChatGPT wired through Bellatro, like, skinned, like, presentation or something? What's going on? I'm so confused.

• 11:06Speaker 02

  Um, so I already have the, I have the prompt all built into Bellatro, and then it gives you a picture, which I think makes it more fun to see.

• 11:14Speaker 03

  Built into actual Bellatro?

• 11:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, we're in Bellatro right now. And that was, that was a strange game. I didn't wanna give, I'm not giving any details about this out, okay? I just simply said, you'll get it. And I knew that.

• 11:26Speaker 00

  Legendary game mod developer.

• 11:30Speaker 02

  You may have heard of my game modding.

• 11:34Speaker 02

  Anyways, on Friday, we'll be doing a, a very severe modding session. Very severe.

• 11:40Speaker 01

  I like it.

• 11:41Speaker 02

  Yes. So I'm very excited about him. Movie trivia turns out to be very hard, too. If you ask ChatGPT, here, well, in fact, let me just see if we can do it.

• 11:49Speaker 00

  I love, someone was like, Bellatro is a based LLM harness. I love the concept of people like, oh, what are you programming in? Oh, I run all my actions through Bellatro. When the hand's really good, they're crushing it.

• 12:05Speaker 02

  I do, I do love that. Uh, but when you ask ChatGPT for a fun movie trivia, for a movie made between 1990 to, like, up to like 2010, it needs to be a popular movie, and you need to give a trivia, almost, it, I, I forgot, I had it down. It was like, I did it like 50 times. And 49 of the 50 times, it was, who directed The Matrix? Every single time. It loves The Matrix. Every single time.

• 12:33Speaker 03

  That was the only question, not other questions about The Matrix.

• 12:35Speaker 02

  The only other question that I ended up getting once, which was, uh, who played Neo in the famous movie The Matrix?

• 12:42Speaker 03

  No, so it only asked The Matrix at all. Like, there were no non-Matrix questions.

• 12:47Speaker 02

  That's because I asked for a famous movie between 1990s to, uh, the double zeros.

• 12:53Speaker 03

  It didn't happen. I just ran it. Has anyone ever heard of Home Alone, for example? Like, what? How's The Matrix the only famous movie in the 1990s? Pulp Fiction? Anyone? Like, what the hell?

• 13:09Speaker 00

  Prime has a ChatGPT memory that says, The Matrix is the best movie of all time. I'm so based. I'm, call me Neo.

• 13:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 13:19Speaker 02

  Uh, okay.

• 13:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, Titanic. I totally forgot about Titanic. There's so many famous movies that are like, in the 90s.

• 13:26Speaker 01

  Cruise, because of that movie. PTSD.

• 13:28Speaker 02

  Really? It wasn't the cruise that got you?

• 13:31Speaker 01

  I got PTSD from watching Titanic. There's like a scene where the guy falls off and hits the propeller and spins like 30 times. I was like, that's not happening to me.

• 13:38Speaker 00

  Trash, they now carry enough lifeboats. That's like the whole thing. They fixed it.

• 13:43Speaker 03

  They say they do, Tej. They said, but do we really know?

• 13:47Speaker 00

  I counted. We were on a cruise. Kayleen and I were walking around. We counted how many there were. Didn't seem like enough, but I trust that there were ones that I missed.

• 13:58Speaker 03

  Shouldn't the lifeboats have to be sort of similarly sized to the boat? I mean, really?

• 14:04Speaker 01

  They should just have two cruise ships of the same size next to each other.

• 14:08Speaker 03

  Backup cruise ship is right there.

• 14:10Speaker 01

  Some of them start sinking. We start going to the other.

• 14:13Speaker 03

  That's exactly what they should do.

• 14:14Speaker 01

  That's the only way I'll get on a cruise ship. There better be two Titanic's going right next to each other. That's what I'm saying.

• 14:20Speaker 00

  Trash, well, what if they had, you could ride on any number in the train, and each one was like slightly smaller, but you could kind of pick, and you're like, I'm gonna be on the third.

• 14:30Speaker 02

  Style.

• 14:31Speaker 00

  Right. So then you had to kind of like multiple backups, because what happens if the second one fails, Trash?

• 14:36Speaker 01

  I don't know. Keep going. You gotta keep going.

• 14:39Speaker 03

  I feel like there's an entire suite of, of cruise, like, architectures, if you will, based on computer programming. So you just did like the big iron fault tolerant one, where it's like, we just have like three Titanic's and they just sail next to each other and it's fine. And then like, there's like the microservices one where there's just like a crap ton of tiny ass bodies. Then everyone's on and they, and you constantly have to like dinghy between them to get shit, because like it's all, yeah.

• 15:07Speaker 02

  I like the idea of having like a raid version, which is that you have the same, you have the same attraction multiple times on different ships, so in case one goes down, you can still visit all the different attractions.

• 15:17Speaker 03

  Except it's like, it's, it's like Raid 5 or like something. It's like, it's Raid where they, like, the band that's playing, there's like three of the instruments on each boat, so if any one boat goes down, you still have all the instruments, but if like two boats go down, you're missing like the drums at that point.

• 15:36Speaker 00

  I was just thinking, there has to be some joke in there about like, all the microservices being deployed, but they're all fighting over which port they get to run in.

• 15:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, that's what happens when they come to dock, right? Like, all these boats are like trying to get in a door and they can't.

• 15:52Speaker 00

  That's why it's called Docker.

• 15:54Speaker 03

  Yes. Finally, something makes sense.

• 15:57Speaker 02

  There'll be some attraction that they're like, man, this one's a really chatty service. It just won't shut, because the dinghies are constantly going to the one. Really screwed up on this one.

• 16:06Speaker 03

  Alright, ladies and gentlemen.

• 16:08Speaker 02

  Ladies, hey, speaking of Codebergs, huh? Uh, so today.

• 16:14Speaker 00

  Holy transition, bro.

• 16:17Speaker 02

  Dang.

• 16:17Speaker 03

  That is more segue than the little scooters that people ride around.

• 16:22Speaker 02

  This is true. Speaking of Codebergs, today we have an excellent episode. For those that are not in the know, we have with us, as always, Tej Dv, famous pun maker, Trash Dev, famous snack eater, and Casey Miratori, legendary game developer, and in fact, even more famous snack influencer than Trash. Leading to sales and thank yous.

• 16:45Speaker 01

  That hurts. That does hurt.

• 16:46Speaker 02

  I know. A man trains his whole life just to be beaten by a rookie. It sucks.

• 16:50Speaker 03

  I know. That was, that was like, I was pulling some amateur stuff and it just, you know, it hit. I'm sorry, Trash. I apologize.

• 16:57Speaker 00

  Trash after that episode goes, I fear not the man who has eaten 10,000 snacks, but one man who has eaten one snack 1,000 times.

• 17:09Speaker 03

  Wait, you're getting, you are now becoming like a weird, like, like, uh, Confucius, or like, like, you've got, it's like, the, Tej is the oracle. Like, I'm expecting you on the, on this show to never say anything except for just like, come in with this like well-crafted one line of wisdom and then come back out again.

• 17:27Speaker 02

  Do you not know the Bruce Lee quote? Mm-mm. Bruce Lee, I don't fear a man that knows 1,000 kicks. I fear the man who knows one, like, who's practiced one kick 1,000 times.

• 17:38Speaker 01

  There's no way that's a Bruce Lee quote.

• 17:41Speaker 02

  Are you an idiot?

• 17:42Speaker 03

  He's very tiny.

• 17:43Speaker 01

  I'm talking about Bruce Lee. I can't believe I don't know this. Hold on, I gotta look this up.

• 17:47Speaker 00

  I don't know anything about Bruce Lee.

• 17:49Speaker 02

  Here we go. Um, let's hope, dang it, uh, quote here.

• 17:56Speaker 02

  There we go. Bruce Lee's famous kick quote is, I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times.

• 18:06Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 18:07Speaker 02

  There you go.

• 18:07Speaker 01

  Okay. All I do is Bruce Lee jokes. You know, like, what's, what's favorite, what's Bruce Lee's favorite drink?

• 18:13Speaker 03

  What?

• 18:13Speaker 01

  What?

• 18:15Speaker 03

  Oh, my God.

• 18:18Speaker 01

  You know?

• 18:21Speaker 02

  Is that supposed to be Mai Tai but with "What Tai"?

• 18:24Speaker 01

  Dude, I was staring at, I was staring at Teesh's tile the whole time as I said it, just waiting to see what he would do.

• 18:31Speaker 00

  You're a...

• 18:33Speaker 01

  You never did that? I did that like my whole childhood. That was like the joke.

• 18:37Speaker 03

  Oh my god.

• 18:40Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 18:40Speaker 01

  Ugh.

• 18:41Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 18:42Speaker 03

  Do you think there's any, do you think there's any chance at all that Prime could do an intro for the show today?

• 18:49Speaker 02

  Uh...

• 18:49Speaker 03

  What are we giving that for odds, for over unders?

• 18:52Speaker 02

  I just bought a very expensive ping pong paddle.

• 18:56Speaker 03

  Okay, so no. The answer is we're already no.

• 19:01Speaker 00

  Prime, can we reveal what you're about to do though? I mean, it's, I think everyone who you're about to do the reveal to isn't a listener of the pod, so I think it's fine.

• 19:11Speaker 02

  Oh yes, okay, okay, okay. So for those that don't know, uh, I have a friend, his name is Doug Doug. And he's, we've been playing pickleball and he keeps beating me at pickleball. And I told him that I used to play ping pong at a pretty serious level. And so, uh, but I said I quit because, uh, I broke my paddle, um, about 12 years ago and I just never bothered to replace it.

• 19:31Speaker 03

  Cause I was ping ponging so hard Doug Doug, that I broke the paddle.

• 19:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was too broke to afford a new one.

• 19:37Speaker 03

  People heard.

• 19:38Speaker 00

  He's a different man with the paddle, okay?

• 19:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 19:40Speaker 02

  And so I quit playing after that, after like losing my paddle. And I, I played in college every, every single, you know, I played four hours a day for years. I was really into ping pong. Famous story is I went to China and I had a li, I had a line of Chinese students out the door and I'd beat them one at a time and no one could believe I could play ping pong that well.

• 20:01Speaker 03

  What?

• 20:01Speaker 02

  And I was...

• 20:01Speaker 03

  What are you talking about?

• 20:03Speaker 00

  That's a, that's a real story.

• 20:04Speaker 01

  This is not a real story.

• 20:06Speaker 00

  That's a real story, I'm not kidding.

• 20:07Speaker 02

  I literally beat like 150 people in a row. I played all day, like 10 hours straight. Yep, I can...

• 20:12Speaker 03

  What am I learning right, what is happening right now?

• 20:14Speaker 00

  Is this like a Forrest Gump kinda like trick you're playing?

• 20:16Speaker 02

  I was seriously into ping pong. Okay, I was seriously into ping pong for a while. Uh, the person I used to play against would, uh, track, like, help train and practice the people that would go and attempt to qualify and qualified for the Olympics and I'd play him. I scored like three points on him once. I was so stoked.

• 20:34Speaker 03

  Alright, so never play Prime at ping pong is what we've learned.

• 20:37Speaker 02

  Well, the thing is, I, I literally have not swung a paddle in 12 years, so I'm...

• 20:41Speaker 03

  I think you're probably still gonna be pretty good, is my guess.

• 20:44Speaker 02

  I am terrible now. I'm terrible now. Anyway, so I got a new paddle, I'm really ready to go play, and so I'm friends with a man named Doug Doug. And he's, he's been beating me at, uh, pickleball, which is like big ping pong. But it's not quite the same. There's no, you can't get a good spin. And so I said, okay, let's play some ping pong. And he's super stoked about it. But I did warn him, like, I used to be good, but I haven't played in a long time, which means I'll probably just overshoot the table over and over again, cause, you know, old muscle memory, but with no talent turns into just disaster, right?

• 21:10Speaker 00

  Right.

• 21:11Speaker 02

  So the goal is, is that when we start warming up, I'll just play a quick one with him. I'm gonna play left-handed. Okay? And then after, like, we kinda play, hit it back, back and forth a little bit of time, and like this. Doug, I hate to tell you this, but I'm not left-handed. And then we're gonna go in and then we're gonna get, we're gonna get serious.

• 21:30Speaker 03

  But didn't you just kind of, now he just knows that that's gonna happen? Like, you literally just told it to everyone in the world.

• 21:36Speaker 02

  No, I don't think, just nobody tell him. No one's gonna tell him.

• 21:38Speaker 00

  Don't tell Doug.

• 21:39Speaker 03

  What if he's watching?

• 21:39Speaker 00

  Don't publish this podcast, turn off the stream. He's not watching. He's not watching.

• 21:43Speaker 02

  He's not watching.

• 21:44Speaker 03

  Okay. Does he live near you? How do you guys play ping pong together?

• 21:48Speaker 02

  Uh, I'm gonna go to, uh, LA here shortly with the family because we have like a, a, a, a friend of my father-in-law

• 21:55Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 21:56Speaker 02

  has a beachfront property and he let us borrow it for 10 days or eight days or something like that. So we're gonna go as a family and go stay down there. And that is 20 minutes away from where he is at. Or 30 minutes or 40 minutes, or some, some, some amount of time. I don't know how LA works.

• 22:11Speaker 00

  The main point was just to, we're about to princess bride him, dude.

• 22:14Speaker 03

  I can tell you how LA works. The way LA works is if it's 40 minutes away, that probably means it's like just down the street a little bit.

• 22:21Speaker 02

  Yes, I, that's why I'm like, it's only three miles Doug and he's just like, you poor, poor man, you have no idea.

• 22:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's like, wait till you see what you're gonna be sitting in for traffic. Okay, so...

• 22:31Speaker 02

  Anyways, so, welcome to the stand-up. Today I have with me, T HDV, Trash Dev and Casey Miratory, legendary game dev and snack influencer. And we are gonna be talking about Codeberg today. For those that are not familiar, Codeberg is an online code hosting platform with a focus on free and open source software. It is part of their mission. A big part of their stuff is that people who open source their code should have a extremely permissive license for everybody to be able to enjoy and bask in the glories of open source software. Uh, with that said, there's been a recent proliferation of LLM-generated code in which is putting strain on anyone that hosts code. I.e. GitHub. GitHub has had a lot of issues and I think we're all familiar with GitHub's issues.

• 23:16Speaker 02

  Well, recently Codeberg came out and said they will no longer allow mostly vibe-coded projects to be a part of codebergonline.net, right? So you can no longer host your vibe-coded stuff on Codeberg. They gave a whole series of reasons as to why. And that is what we're going to discuss today. Is, is this a good move by Codeberg? Are we happy with it? Uh, will this work out for them? Or is this terrible? Alright, so there we go. So this is the addendum that they made. You must not share projects that mostly consist of code written by generative AI tools, including services such as Claude, Open AI, uh, OpenAI Codex.

• 23:57Speaker 02

  Such projects have unclear copyright status. See the requirements in Section 211, Section 213. And furthermore, have little safeguards to ensure that they do not include harmful code. Those other sections just, uh, they're just directly above saying like, hey, we have certain standards, we want certain things to be, uh, like if you are posting a project, we want it to be this type of permissive license. You cannot guarantee that by having an LLM. Is what they're effectively attempting to say. So this is the line that caused the controversy that everybody is freaking out about. Okay, we're getting a 504. So they might actually like, they might be getting, uh, hammered right now. Oh yes, yes, we got it. And so they also, uh, posted a blog post and they had a nice little image right here, which it looks like they've also just recently deleted,

• 24:41Speaker 02

  which is super unfortunate because it was right here within the first couple. But it showed the actual voting. Um, it showed the actual voting, so that has been somehow removed or changed. But the voting goes that two-thirds of all Codeberg people supported the no LLM policies, whereas about one-third said, hey, we don't support the LLM stuff, you should be able to have LLM projects.

• 25:03Speaker 03

  I could be misremembering, but I'd add one caveat to that, which is, it wasn't two-thirds of Codeberg people. It was two-thirds of people who voted, which is 50% of Codeberg people. So it's kind of two-thirds of 50% if you...

• 25:15Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, sorry. It was, it was of the, yes, the voting class of Codeberg. Cause there is two different classes of Codeberg. There's the, you know, people that can just host a small project and of course, the people that are members that are involved, that have voting rights and all that. So that, that side of things.

• 25:29Speaker 03

  Well, I mean, I think it's 50% of the, like, it's, they were talking about how many people participated, which may just be people didn't vote. Like, you know, you had rights to vote but didn't vote. I don't know. Like, I'm just saying, they, they were sort of, it was not clear exactly how many people out of all of the people it was, but just a slight caveat.

• 25:46Speaker 02

  Uh, their, their blog post went on and shared several points about what exactly, uh, is their reasoning behind. And a few of the big reasons, of course, is that LLMs put a natural strain on hardware costs. So the replacement of their hardware and them being fully self-hosted is being directly impacted, going from 700 non-freedom units euros to 3,500s for a SSD is directly impacting how much hardware they can buy. That's realistic. Second, it impacts actual infrastructure, cause there's a higher rate of commits, more code being generated. More of the platform is being used by these, uh, by people who can just generate huge amounts of code and it's largely untouched. Their big argument was that you have a single piece of code, which is tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of lines long.

• 26:29Speaker 02

  And it's just one person interacting with it, whereas something like, say, Ghosty or some other project that's hosted on Codeberg, they have tons and tons of people interacting with it. It creates a very healthy community. And so it's like disproportionately costing them more for something that creates no community. And so they're like, we don't really like that. And then thirdly, they said, hey, the copyright status, we don't really know about that. And then fourth, they said, hey, we really don't like single-use software. Meaning like you shouldn't generate something for your exact need and said it should be built upon something that a bunch of people should be able to have benefits. And that's kind of the hosting or style they wish to have on their platform. So I, I believe I have given the, the rough outline as to everything.

• 27:08Speaker 03

  There's also a very lengthy blog statement, um, which is called "Protecting Our Floss Commons From LLMs" that was posted.

• 27:18Speaker 02

  Yes, here we go.

• 27:19Speaker 03

  And you have the link to that, cause that's pretty helpful, cause it kinda goes through all of the issues that they were concerned about and kind of explained their goals, which is pretty important to understand, like, the motivation of a terms of service change, obviously. So that was pretty, I, I found that pretty helpful to just like know why they were doing it, right?

• 27:37Speaker 02

  Yep, I tried to explain most of their reasons. That's where I got a lot of...

• 27:39Speaker 03

  That's why I said, I feel like you got most of that in your, in your summer.

• 27:42Speaker 02

  I missed a few. I missed a few for sure, but I really, you know.

• 27:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 27:45Speaker 02

  I missed this part, which I don't think I did very well. Let me say this last part, which was losing trust in each other was another big point, which is when you go to a, as a maintainer, when you open up a project, if you have notifications and it turns out the person on the other side, often well-meaning, as they say, put in low-effort poll requests, it kind of builds into you a bias, thinking that all poll requests and all new people are just gonna be a bunch of LLM or low-effort people. And it makes you more resistant to new people coming into your community. It makes it harder for people that are active in your community to be able to like really reach you and have good discussions, because now everything's being passed through this filter of, oh, it's just an LLM, being bothersome. And so it kind of tears down communities and creates a more toxic place. Whereas if you didn't have that, you'd have good conversation, much more meaningful conversation. At least that is their intended argument.

• 28:28Speaker 00

  Good summary, Prime.

• 28:30Speaker 03

  Now, Prime, you are the one who wanted to talk about this originally.

• 28:34Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 28:35Speaker 03

  You were like, I wanna talk about this. So maybe you could start by saying, why did you wanna talk about it?

• 28:41Speaker 02

  Uh, for me, I, I will first start off with what I thought was their most interesting point, which was the last one that, that they said, which is the teardown of communities. Uh, I, I do think that there's something very interesting to that, because I've noticed it a lot, even just in my basic communication, is that anytime I read something that's over three sentences long, I am now like more and more going, I think this person just generated this response. Because it's just like way too, it's just like way too, uh, superfluous, like, there's just, the language is all wrong and it just like, and I realize that it makes me stop really reading a lot of people's responses and it's kind of tearing down the community, whether I realize, like, it wasn't, it was a, uh, it was my favorite part of the four-part diagram, which is called an unknown known.

• 29:23Speaker 02

  I didn't know I knew it, but I just knew it inherently. And I just operate under this bias where I just don't even realize that I'm doing it to myself. Whereas like, I start looking at a lot of stuff and going, oh, this is just LLM-generated, without even giving them a fair shake or really consideration to their argument. And I can see why this is actually tearing down, uh... Tearing down communities and Codeberg being a place that's probably much more tight knit than, say GitHub, I bet you a lot of the maintainers of projects know other maintainers of project. Community is very, very important. And so I'm just curious, like, how, is that something that they should be concerned about? Or is it better just to say, hey, we're growing and adapting to the ever-changing field of software engineering and we should just move away from this, even though I can see why it's beneficial?

• 30:08Speaker 02

  I find this part at least very interesting or very unique.

• 30:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, I guess one thing I would say is, reading through their blog post, I didn't really hit any part where I was like, well, that doesn't make any sense. Like, it kind of was just like, very reasonable. Now, I don't know for a fact that the reasons that they're giving are the real reasons, like, or whether they just hate LLMs or something and, and just, we're gonna ban them either way. You know, I don't know whether it was rationalization, or whether it was actually like, these were the motivating factors. But, to me, it doesn't really matter. It's like, the explanations they gave were very sound explanations. I felt like all of them were pretty reasonable. About the only thing that I would say as a slight counterpoint was, I was like, well, you know, could you just turn this into a monetary policy?

• 30:54Speaker 03

  Could it just be that, well, if you want to do this, like, if you want to use LLMs to generate a lot of code, we're gonna charge you a lot of money. Like, that's gonna cost you. So like, you can't use this service for free, you're gonna have to pay us if you submit LLM-generated stuff, you're already paying for the LLM, so, you know, whatever, or something like that. Because, at least that way, it would, it would be something where it could be adjusted. But, I also understand the perspective of, if they just don't want this, like, if they're just like, we don't, we don't see this as being something we want to be involved with at all, then I can understand the policy, because they're just basically saying, like, look, we don't want this at all, so we don't wanna, we don't wanna pessimize it, we don't wanna reduce its use, we just wanna get rid of it and have those people go somewhere

• 31:39Speaker 03

  else. Totally fine, if that's their decision.

• 31:43Speaker 01

  I have a quick comment. So, I thought, same thing as Casey said, I thought all, like, this blog post was good, and I thought everything was written very well, I agreed with everything. What, what I can't get past is, like, I don't understand how you can even enforce such a thing that they're saying here. So, there was like, a lot of, like, blurry lines, where it's like, you can't have a project that's mostly created by, like, an AI LLM, which, that just blurs the lines. Now, it's like, well, who's deciding what's mostly, or who's not? Like, it almost feels like, you really can't really have a repo on Codeberg unless you have, like, some, like, past reputation of being, like, some great open source person. Like, someone who's coming in, like, it almost shuts off anybody new to, like, the space. Because they have no previous, like, like, credentials or anything like that.

• 32:28Speaker 01

  And if you can't prove that they, they didn't create with an LLM, you're gonna almost just assume, just, kinda like what you said earlier, you almost just assume everyone's using LLM. Like, I've never seen such detailed PR requests, or PR descriptions, until, like, this past year. And every time I see, like, a well-thought-out PR description, I'm like, I'm not reading it, because it's slop. Which is funny, because when I do it, I don't feel that way. I'm like, yeah, this is well detailed, but when someone does it to me, I get, like, I get, like, offended, almost. I'm like, wow, you didn't take the time, so funny. This morning, I actually got a, on one of my open source projects, I got a pull request, and it was definitely just, like, auto-generated. And I was, like, almost pissed off when I got it, but at the same time, like, this whole past week, I've been using LLMs to just, like, knock out a bunch of, like, tech debt.

• 33:12Speaker 01

  But for whatever reason, when I saw someone do it to me, and it wasn't me doing it, I could, I just got, like, super bad for some reason, I'm like, I'm gonna close it, but, yeah, I don't know, I can't explain the, I can't explain the psychology there right now, it's weird.

• 33:25Speaker 03

  I, I think that's kind of a thing that is almost to be expected, though, because everyone, this is common for humans, right? Like, it's just a thing that everyone does, which is, you believe that you are responsible when you use something. Like, I am a good driver, and I drive responsibly, right? But these other people on the road-

• 33:46Speaker 00

  That's why I can text and drive, Casey.

• 33:48Speaker 03

  Yeah. Right? It's like, I can look at the map, but if someone else is doing that, they're just irresponsible, and they're gonna kill somebody and whatever, right? And, uh, you can name just about anything, gun ownership, drinking, whatever it is, drugs, it's always like, the people who think that they can do it responsibly, don't just automatically then think, well, anyone can do it responsibly, they're like, no, everyone else could, right? LLMs feel a lot like that to me. Um, I feel a lot, I, I feel, sort of, ambiently, that people generally are like, I think that AI is bad, and that it's generating a lot of slop, but of course, I use it, and I use it really well, and I make, like, good stuff with it.

• 34:30Speaker 03

  It's like, no, you probably make roughly the same stuff as everyone else, and you're just, like, downgrading what they're making and upgrading what you're making, kind of unfairly, uh, because probably their stuff isn't as bad as you're making it out to be, and your stuff probably isn't as good as you're making it out to be, right? Uh, and that's just how it goes, unfortunately. So, I think you're touching on something very real, I don't think it's specific to AI, but I do think it probably is happening a lot, right now.

• 34:57Speaker 01

  I think that summarizes my feelings exactly. No, sorry, Tej. But, yeah.

• 35:01Speaker 00

  I was gonna say, the other thing for, like, oh, go ahead, Trash, no, sorry.

• 35:04Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no, no. Well, my last comment is, after I read this, I almost felt like it was like a Mastodon, Blue Sky blog post. And I was just like, wow, this is, like, very pretentious, like, come on. But then, I get it, like, after reading this blog article, it's like, okay, okay, this all makes sense, like, financially, too, it also makes sense. But I still feel like it's gonna shut out a lot of, like, future, like, open source creators that do use LLMs, but also use them responsibly. But, to your point, Casey, it's like, how do we know they're using responsibly? Because I use it responsibly, you know? So, it all, it all just seems very hand-wavy, not very enforceable, and pretty much like, you gotta know somebody, almost, kind of thing, which I don't really like, I don't know.

• 35:45Speaker 03

  Tej, you were gonna say something?

• 35:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, the thing I was gonna say was, it's, uh, I, I think, similar to the thing you're saying, Casey, but maybe slightly different, too, is like, for my codebase, I don't care if I fill it up with trash, right? Like, if I do something in my house, and I scuff up the wall, I'm kinda like, well, that stinks, I wish I didn't scuff up the wall. But like, if I was at my friend's house, and I scuffed up their wall, I would feel, like, really bad, because it's like, their thing, right? So I do think there's, like, a little bit of an asymmetry there, where, like, if I do something to someone else's repo, I do feel like I should do better than I would do on my own repo, right? So I do think, like, at least for, I feel like a responsibility, that like, oh, I'm going into your house, what's your rules?

• 36:32Speaker 00

  How do you do stuff? I'm gonna do it your way. You leave shoes on, that's disgusting, but I'll do it at your house. My house, you're taking your shoes off, okay? Everybody at the door, okay?

• 36:43Speaker 02

  Reasonable.

• 36:44Speaker 03

  Gotcha.

• 36:46Speaker 02

  Okay, so I wanted to jump back on, uh, Trash, what were you saying? What, what, what did you just say? What was the, because I had a great, oh yeah, okay, I got it. Ghosty, how does Ghosty work in this world? For those that don't know, Ghosty was a terminal, uh, started off being written by Mitchell Hashimoto in his retirement years, and then gained, gained popularity, and over the last year-

• 37:06Speaker 00

  He's unretired, as of today, by the way.

• 37:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's unretired.

• 37:09Speaker 00

  He's back in the game.

• 37:11Speaker 02

  And over, uh, over the last, like, year and a half, he's been talking about how he uses AI all the time to generate, uh, patches and all that. Like, how do you even enforce the idea of mostly? Like, why would Ghosty deserve a spot on Codeberg? Because we know at least one person committing to Codeberg uses AI regularly. Like, what is the, what is the, the mark of too much slop? Like, I don't, I don't know what that is.

• 37:37Speaker 03

  I, I kinda have something tangential to say. I don't think there is a way to know, but I have something sort of, to add to that, or to sort of, it's not really a pylon, but it's like, a thing that goes along with it, I think. Which is, I think there's, I, based on their blog post, they have a lot of goals, like, there were a lot of things outlined there, right? And I think there's a simpler version that has less goals. So, if your goal is just that you want the projects to be good, and you want them to work well, and you want the system as a whole to work well, then really, I think the only policy you probably need in that scenario is, no one should be able to tell this was done by an LLM. That's the goal, right?

• 38:20Speaker 03

  The goal should be, I get the pull request, and it's been looked over correctly, there's no obvious mistakes, the thing isn't too verbose, like, somebody prepared it so that it looks like a nice, human-generated pull request, and maybe it was generated largely by the LLM, but a human was there to make sure that you didn't get the slop, right? And so, that's the real thing that, like, a project that just doesn't want to drown in low-quality stuff should be concerned with, right? But then there's a separate thing, where they've piled on all these other things, which I don't necessarily disagree with, so I'm not saying pile on in a bad sense, I'm just saying they've added a lot more past that baseline of just, don't disrupt the service.

• 38:59Speaker 03

  They're basically saying, like, they don't really want to invest time in the LLM sort of economy. They're saying, they wanna invest in people, right? I've heard this from multiple places, I believe this was the stated reason why Zig stopped, uh, accepting LLM-generated pull requests as well.

• 39:20Speaker 02

  Slop contributions, and then exactly that.

• 39:21Speaker 03

  They basically said, I think Andrew Kelly literally said, in an interview, he said something like, "We want to invest in people who we believe will become future contributors to Zig, and we want those people to be spending a lot of time in the code." Again, don't know if that's the real reason or not, I can't, like, intuit, or, or I can't, like, see into people's souls and know, like, what they're actually saying, but, as a statement, it is very reasonable, right?

• 39:50Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 39:50Speaker 03

  If that's your goal, is to have, is to cultivate people who are gonna contribute, then not wanting them to be using LLMs as the way that they learn about the codebase could be a very reasonable thing to say. Like, I don't know, right? I'm not in a position to really, uh, judge that. So, I do think there's kind of this, there's kind of different stages, right? When you get to a certain point, the goals that you're trying to sort of go for, kinda have to be, like, yeah, we don't want you using LLMs much, because we think, we, we think there's something to preserve in the human layer, and we're going for that.

• 40:23Speaker 02

  So, I guess, I guess the follow-up question is that, this obviously caused a huge amount of, uh, kind of stir on the internet, and I, I, like you said, I like their, if you take what they're saying at face value-

• 40:34Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 40:35Speaker 02

  And you believe they're being, like, honest in all of their thoughts, that it's purely a very practical, educational type of pursuit, then you'd say, okay, well, this, I think it's totally fine. Like, I think that there's nothing wrong with it. But obviously, the internet kinda freaked out, and there was people just saying how they're gonna get left behind, and all these different kind of things. Uh, is this actually a real concern? Or is this just like a Twitterism that people throw out there, that actually has no real impact into the future of Codeberg?

• 41:04Speaker 03

  Does anyone else want to go first? Because I have something to say about the left behind thing that's kind of its own direction.

• 41:08Speaker 02

  Oh, with Kirk Cameron, famous movie.

• 41:11Speaker 03

  And book series.

• 41:12Speaker 00

  Really famous series.

• 41:12Speaker 02

  And book series.

• 41:13Speaker 01

  What do you mean, left behind in what sense?

• 41:16Speaker 02

  The books. When Jesus comes back, idiot.

• 41:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. Like, and then there's a bunch of people here just standing around. Obviously, we know somebody's getting left behind here, okay?

• 41:23Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 41:24Speaker 01

  No, I mean, like, uh, like, is there... I'm talking about, like, Cobers, but like, I don't understand, like, why they'd be left behind if they took out LLMs.

• 41:32Speaker 03

  Well, I think the implication is that if everyone's going to be programming with LLMs in the future, because that's the new way that people are starting to...

• 41:39Speaker 02

  Next week.

• 41:40Speaker 03

  Well, the people are starting to program now. Like, most people are using these things, or at least a significant portion of developers are using these things. Then if you ban them, you are effectively not going to have enough people, right? Doing work to contribute to Codeberg repositories, I think, right? I mean, that's just the basic implication is there won't be enough programmers doing programming without these LLMs to constitute, you know, a relevant set of projects on Codeberg. Is that... I mean, am I just off base here?

• 42:11Speaker 01

  But they're not banning LLMs straight out. They're just banning, like, strictly, like, only LLM stuff, right? That's what I'm getting.

• 42:17Speaker 03

  Well, yeah.

• 42:18Speaker 01

  But I guess that's like, that's where the... it gets weird.

• 42:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, the... I mean, I don't know. I'm just saying, like, I think that's what they mean by left behind. It's just like, because people will be mostly... Mostly, they will be generating code with LLMs, and if you're doing that, you know, that's not allowed.

• 42:33Speaker 02

  So, Casey, you may not know this, but, uh...

• 42:36Speaker 03

  I probably don't.

• 42:36Speaker 02

  Sorry, Teed, you can go next. Sorry, I just got to throw this in there. Trash knows this very, very well, which is a very common Silicon Valley-ism. So I think this is actually a holdover from just another time, which is that if you were to build a product in 2021 and you didn't use React, you were effectively making it so that no one can work on your project and it's going to be super hard to hire, and all these kind of things. Like, you saw that kind of phrasing and phraseology constantly. So I do think that that mentality, whatever it is, yet again shows up in these type of arguments, which is, well, if you're not doing the current thing, then you're done. You're cooked, you're, you know, whatever the kid... you're chopped, the kids say. I think that's what they say. All right, sorry, Teed, go.

• 43:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, I was gonna say, I think there's... Like, if you think of Stack Overflow, and it, like, used to be a company, and basically now it's not, is my understanding. Like, it used to be popular, and now I think they get, like, sometimes days go by with no questions asked. Am I crazy? Is it that small now?

• 43:34Speaker 02

  It is that small, yeah.

• 43:35Speaker 01

  No way, no way.

• 43:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's like, it's like 10 questions on average a day was the last time I looked.

• 43:40Speaker 00

  And it used to be, like, over 100,000 or something insane, right? Sometimes it peaked. Something crazy. Whatever.

• 43:48Speaker 00

  So, I think, like, from, uh, if you're saying, like, from a business perspective, I think, like, some of what they're... you know, what people are getting at is, like, Codeberg, you won't be able to, like, pay people to work on your stuff, or like, to host it, or do all these other things. Because there's literally just not going to be enough people, like, doing whatever version it is that Codeberg says is, like, acceptable coding policy. I think is, like, the conjecture. The thing that I always feel like is kind of crazy for that, where I just, you know, want to take a step back and make sure people are considering. Like, a lot, you know, spent a lot of time working on NeoVim, did a lot of fun stuff on my setup, whatever. I had a lot of fun doing that. Some of it was productive, some of it was just fun. I always said as much.

• 44:34Speaker 00

  I know that a bunch of people absolutely demolished me using Notepad, or Notepad++, or like, Ed still, and made a... whatever metric you would pick, like, crushed me in terms of number of users, amount of money, amount of money raised, cultural impact. Like, you could pick any vertical, and they crushed my entire career, right?

• 45:02Speaker 00

  So, I always feel like the, like, you'll get left behind because you're not using whatever the current thing is, is like, usually very overstated. Just in terms of, like, there are people who are just, like, either much more persistent, or much more lucky, or work harder, or whatever it's going to be, and they, like, still win and carve out their thing. And unironically, uh, without... and without malice, the "successful by their own standards," a phrase that I know Prime is familiar with at least.

• 45:30Speaker 02

  It's my favorite phrase, by the way.

• 45:31Speaker 03

  That's a really good phrase.

• 45:32Speaker 00

  Is actually... is actually true, though. If Codeberg doesn't want to be acquired by Microsoft and be the default place where people host code, instead they want to be a place that's like, a sustainable business where people can share code with other humans, then they can, like, still meet that goal without getting every new programmer. So it's like, you can't... you might get left behind by the, like, VC hype cycle thing. Like, you'll never get the growth that, like, your venture capital firm would have wanted you to get. But that doesn't mean that the project is like a failure, which is the thing that I just feel like is so... Just like, everyone's talking way past each other about that online in the conversation.

• 46:14Speaker 03

  I feel like that's 100% correct. It's like, the idea of getting left behind doesn't really make very much sense, because it suggests that everyone's goal is to be at the forefront of something, right? But that's not, right? Like, there are... you know, like, you've got people like the Amish who are just like, you know what, I'm just not going to use electricity, right? In 2026. Like, people have to have the freedom to define their own ways of living. And one of the things that I try to tell people, although people rarely seem to want to listen, is that that is a feature, not a bug, of humanity. Because you never really know when humanity in large numbers is going to go do something fantastically stupid.

• 46:58Speaker 03

  Like, we have no idea if AI is going to be a huge mistake. It might be, for reasons we just can't foresee, right? And so, having some percentage of the population who doesn't like it reflexively and chooses to go do something else, that is not bad. Even if they're wrong, it's good. It's insurance. It's basically like humanity's protection about everyone doing something dumb, right? So you always want a diversity of sort of directions forward, where some amount of your populace is not doing the new thing. Even if the new thing turns out to be correct, it was not a good idea to try to pressure them into not going their own way,

• 47:41Speaker 03

  because having that sort of different set of people doing different things for different reasons is why we survive. And the instant you try to homogenize everybody and say everyone should do it this one way, you are effectively, like, eliminating humanity's greatest strength, which is not all doing the same thing all the time.

• 48:01Speaker 00

  They did... this was the problem in Interstellar. They all had the exact same corn. That's why they had to go inside of a black hole.

• 48:08Speaker 03

  I mean, I don't know.

• 48:09Speaker 00

  Trash, that's literally true!

• 48:11Speaker 03

  There's like a bookshelf that...

• 48:12Speaker 01

  No way, what?

• 48:14Speaker 03

  Then Michael... Matthew McConaughey had to go behind a bookshelf and like, then like, punch it to like, get some stuff hap... It's hard to recover from corn.

• 48:22Speaker 00

  If you all are doing the same corn, it's GGs, okay? Timothy Chalamet might disappear from your timeline and never get referenced in the last 45 minutes of your movie, okay?

• 48:33Speaker 03

  You get hit by this huge wave, like, the biggest wave you've ever seen, and you have very little warning, Trash.

• 48:39Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 48:39Speaker 00

  Very little warning.

• 48:40Speaker 01

  Noted, noted on corn, got it.

• 48:42Speaker 03

  Yeah. And then, then Matt Damon lies to you about the planet. It's... there's a ton of bad stuff that happens in this timeline.

• 48:48Speaker 00

  He's a good guy when he's on Earth, but every time you see him not on Earth, he's a bad guy.

• 48:52Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 48:53Speaker 00

  Think about it.

• 48:53Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 48:54Speaker 02

  Uh, something I, you know, I feel like people don't talk about is Matthew McConaughey spends, like, years behind that bookshelf.

• 49:01Speaker 03

  I mean, it's probably a pretty cool little space back there.

• 49:06Speaker 02

  I'm just throwing it out there. It was a long time. He was, he was, he was out there for a long time.

• 49:09Speaker 03

  He's a patient man.

• 49:11Speaker 02

  Very patient.

• 49:12Speaker 00

  Very patient.

• 49:13Speaker 02

  Hitting them with binary.

• 49:15Speaker 00

  Trash, that is what happens, though, by the way. They all have the same corn, and then it gets afflicted by the same disease, and they can't stop it because they ran out of corn. That's what... they can't live anymore.

• 49:25Speaker 01

  I had no idea.

• 49:27Speaker 00

  You're not paying enough attention, Trash.

• 49:29Speaker 01

  I'm not paying attention. I'm not.

• 49:31Speaker 02

  Trash.

• 49:32Speaker 00

  But, the serious point to echo Casey's point is, if you love AI, you should be thankful that there exists people putting out new, untainted, fresh training and keeping the light alive of trades that we may forget how to do. We don't actually want to have the meme where it's like... We lost the technology, whatever the meme is like, "My dad showed me this TV and asked, "How did we put this on the moon?" He said, "Son, we lost the technology." You don't actually want that, so you should be thankful that people exist that are like, "I hate AI, I'm gonna keep writing code by hand." That's a good-

• 50:08Speaker 03

  This is, this is the exact same thing as back in the old, old days, where people were like, "Why are you working on like, game engine stuff? Why don't you just use Unity?" And the answer is, "Don't, why would you ever say that to somebody? The people who you're saying that to are the people who built Unity." Like, that's why you have a Unity, it's because of these- You should just say, "Great, have fun with that, I'm gonna leave you alone, because I want my Unity later," right? Like, that's, it's, people are arguing against their own self-interest. Like, people who are LLM aficionados are arguing against their own self-interest when they tell other people not to pursue other paths. It doesn't make any sense. It's like, the Codeberg people's blog makes perfect sense.

• 50:52Speaker 03

  The people who are saying they shouldn't do this, that they're gonna be left behind, I don't really take that seriously, because that's not what you would say if you actually thought about the system as a whole. And, again, so when you look at those people's motivations, it kinda feels more like they're just self-conscious or something. Like, they, they don't have enough self-esteem to just go, "I'm using LLMs and I'm fine with it, and I don't mind if other people aren't in the band with it." It's like, somebody else not doing it is like, makes them afraid, maybe there's something wrong with them or something. And they have to get everyone involved in this thing, and everyone has to agree it's great to do this, and that there's nothing wrong with using them. It's like, just have some self-confidence. You use LLMs, it's fine, you're fine with it, go ahead and let the people who don't, don't. It, it just, what's the problem, right? I don't understand.

• 51:37Speaker 02

  Casey, can I read you a quote from George Hots?

• 51:39Speaker 00

  Also, I called it in the chat. As soon as Casey said this, I typed in the chat, "GeoHots reference incoming. Prime is so excited."

• 51:47Speaker 02

  TJ, I actually had a completely different point, but when I saw that, I was like, "Oh, that's a good reference."

• 51:53Speaker 00

  Oh, your face lit up, I was like, he's running-

• 51:55Speaker 02

  You did a little bit of shaping, future shaping by accident.

• 51:58Speaker 03

  What is, what is it?

• 51:59Speaker 02

  Alright, well, let me, let me show you. So, this is from his famous blog post called, "I love LLMs, I hate the, I hate the hype." Where he also casually drops that he runs GLM2, just to set up his Linux machine. You know, whatever, a multimillion dollar machine, just to set up Linux, uh, you're the Linux, by the way. Uh, so anyways, he said this, "What I don't like, uh, is two things. One, the constant bullshit about the window closing or perpetual underclass are falling hopelessly behind. This is a negative balance hype. Not only is it not true, it's mostly designed to make you feel bad about yourself and move to shitty San Francisco where everything really does suck, like how these people claim." Oh, it gets better, Casey, it gets better. Again, just in case anyone's wondering, Hots, open invite whenever you want to be on here.

• 52:40Speaker 03

  Hots takes, I love these Hots takes.

• 52:42Speaker 02

  Dude, he's my favorite writer, uh, of the modern age. And two, "This straw man jumped from, 'Oh hey, it's a fancy autocomplete, smart compiler, better search engine,' to it's like, gonna own the whole light cone, bro. If you aren't in San Francisco and at the right parties, there's gonna be a flash of light in the sky one day, and you're not even gonna know what happened, but everything just changed. I'll bet you everything I, I have, that this doesn't happen. The people perpetuating this are terrible people, but the justice is that this is how they feel inside, all the time, themselves."

• 53:14Speaker 03

  I, I guess, you know, all, all I'm doing is, is unknowingly parroting GeoHots here. So, yes, I mean, that's kind of what I was trying to say, but put more eloquently, I suppose.

• 53:26Speaker 02

  I, I love that phrase, but, uh, I mean, I, I do wanna throw this out there, that there's this, there's this one big problem when it comes to AI. Well, really, it comes to anyone talking about technology, and I do this myself all the time, because Neil Vim's still the greatest editor, if you wanna actually be a real programmer. But, uh, the thing is, is that, when you approach a problem, especially, like, you'll definitely see this from people recommending LLMs, is that they can identify and say, "Oh, this is a part that LLMs are not that good at, but don't worry, it's really great at backends. Oh no, don't worry, it's really great at this other thing." And, and so, I, I hearken it to like, something like the gentleman amnesia, which is, you open up a magazine, you read the first thing about horses, you say, "Wow, they're so smart about horses, look at all these cool facts." You go to JavaScript and you read it, and they're like, "Oh, they know nothing about

• 54:11Speaker 02

  JavaScript, they're so, they're such idiots." You turn the page, and you're like, "Oh man, this bee article's so amazing. Look, I know so much about bees now." It's like, you completely forgot the fact that when you knew something, then it was not that good. But when you don't know something, it's like, the most fantastic thing in the universe. So, it has, uh, some strong parallels to that. And I think that people often forget that what they work on and what they're doing may be very good with LLMs. That doesn't mean everybody has a problem that's really aligned with LLMs. Like, if I was just building, uh, some SaaS tools that is taking stuff from the backend and putting it on the front end, like, you bet your sweet ass, I'd be using LLMs like wild. Like, I'd be setting up every last thing, 'cause it's like, this is such a mechanical, obvious, you know, "Put the data in the box, bro." Like, there's not like, a lot you gotta do there.

• 54:55Speaker 02

  And so, it's like, this is a perfect example of you saying, "Hey, you could probably get to the point of even automating PR review through a lot of this stuff, with barely like, any oversight." Whereas, like, you can't do that for everything, but people see this one thing, and they go, "Dude, why aren't you automating PR review? It's obvious, you should do it this way, this is the future, idiot." But like, their, their circle is so much different than other people's circle, but it's the, you know, "I see it, therefore, everybody has this exact same thing." And also, they feel really crappy on the inside, based on GeoHots. And so, uh, that's kind of like, how I look at this, and why people are angry at Codeberg, is 'cause they see their future and what they're doing, and they see Codeberg going against it, and they cannot imagine a world in which is different than their own world.

• 55:36Speaker 03

  Well, I would also just point out the difference in goals, at least, because from my perspective, I, I've never really been super concerned, I mean, I guess I am concerned sort of, because I have to use software, about how good LLMs are, compared to human programming, right? I'm slightly concerned, because like, if they were, if they don't get any better, maybe that's a problem, because people are using them, so I, you know, I kind of want them to improve, in the sense that if they don't improve, we're kind of in trouble. But, you know, that, sort of, that's a separate thing. So, assuming that they get good enough, that it's just fine all the time, and they can write really good code, and we don't really have to worry about it too much, to me, that's really just not part of the equation, at least for me, because it's like, I like to program. Like, I wanna do it, right?

• 56:18Speaker 03

  And, and so, when I look at things, other things in life, uh, I think TJ used chess as an example before, I find that very compelling. It's like, if I wanna play a game of chess, I'm not thinking, "Well, I'm not gonna play that game of chess, because I know that I could get a computer that can play it better than me." I still just wanna do it, right? You know?

• 56:39Speaker 01

  It's good, it's good.

• 56:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:41Speaker 03

  So-

• 56:42Speaker 02

  I like TJ, I, I actually even prefer, that's one of TJ's really great analogies, a second one of his is the Amish chair one, which you kind of alluded to, which is, Amish people still make chairs that I can go buy.

• 56:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, any other thing I was gonna say is-

• 56:53Speaker 02

  Why not just mass produce it from Ikea, idiot? Just use the mass produce one, dummy.

• 56:56Speaker 03

  Drum, drum machines versus live music, right? It's like, we have things that can do stuff on a time, so it's like, I may just wanna learn to play the drums, because I enjoy playing the drums. It's not that I think I will be more precise than a drum machine, or whatever, it's just that I wanted to play the drums, right? And so, to me, those things should be acceptable. Like, if you say that, people should not be, like, hounding you for some reason. It's a perfectly rational thing, that exists in all of these, like, "Hey, we could probably design a robot that hits a baseball really well." That doesn't mean that we shouldn't have people playing baseball as something we watch. Like, it's just, it might just be something we want to do, and that should be fine.

• 57:36Speaker 03

  And you should not care, because if, again, if you're not really self-conscious or something, and you, and you actually have some self-confidence, then if you wanna go build the future with LLMs, those people are not in your way, right? They're like, not, they're not creating a problem by going and doing something a different way, so what's the, what's the issue? Like, why do you have to convince them not to? I, I don't, I don't see it.

• 57:58Speaker 00

  We can agree that it's time to play, stop playing soccer, though, right, Casey?

• 58:02Speaker 03

  Well, we never should've started. I agree that if your country doesn't have a better sport to play, like, if you only have soccer, then play soccer. But if you can, if you can have baseball or something, if you can have like, a, a sport that adults play, you should play, you should probably play that. That's my opinion anyway.

• 58:17Speaker 02

  Yes, I've always, I've always personally thought the quality of a country is, uh, based proportionally on how expensive their, uh, main sport is to play.

• 58:24Speaker 03

  Yes, exactly. That's how you know, that's the affluence of that country. If all you can afford is like, a little ball, that you just run around a field with, eh? Right? Like, not really. Like, that's not, that's not really first world, that doesn't scream first world to me, right?

• 58:39Speaker 02

  It really doesn't.

• 58:40Speaker 03

  So, I don't know, I mean, make of it what you will.

• 58:43Speaker 01

  Oh, it's so brutal.

• 58:44Speaker 03

  You know?

• 58:45Speaker 00

  Love it. Our, our new sports are collecting Pokemon cards. It's a very expensive sport.

• 58:51Speaker 03

  Yeah. Trash has decided that.

• 58:53Speaker 01

  You know how many soccer balls this is worth? This is so many soccer balls behind me.

• 58:57Speaker 03

  I think, I saw somebody saying- Yeah, I saw somebody saying something like, like, "The whole point of the stand-up is to watch Trash's room slowly fill up with Pokemon," and I was like-

• 59:06Speaker 01

  Can I show you guys something?

• 59:08Speaker 03

  Yes, you can, of course.

• 59:09Speaker 01

  This is my, my, this is my binder of bangers.

• 59:15Speaker 03

  Okay, okay.

• 59:16Speaker 02

  Ooh, I love it.

• 59:17Speaker 01

  I pulled this card, just randomly, I don't know if you can see it.

• 59:20Speaker 03

  What is that?

• 59:21Speaker 01

  This is a mega dark ride, it's called, uh, "Special Illustration Rare," $300 card. Boom. Boom. That was my first, first one I ever pulled of like, this, uh, this caliber. And I showed my, I showed my son, and he was so mad at me, he was like, "I want it." I was like, "Uh, okay."

• 59:39Speaker 02

  So, just, just so I understand, Trash, just so we're on the same page, that means all of your other cards are worth less than $300.

• 59:57Speaker 01

  I can't afford to go out and buy a thousand dollar card and I refuse. I want to pull it myself. Okay?

• 1:00:03Speaker 02

  That's actually reasonable. That's actually reasonable.

• 1:00:06Speaker 00

  It's the same thing as AI.

• 1:00:08Speaker 01

  Exactly. So it's like there's people that favor input, which is like the Codeberg people. There's people that favor output, which is like the LLM people who just churn his stuff out, right? I'm an input type guy when it comes to Pokemon, so.

• 1:00:22Speaker 00

  Yep. I respect that.

• 1:00:24Speaker 02

  Trash. Since you're kind of the only one who works at a modern web influencing company within this group right now.

• 1:00:33Speaker 03

  Can we just say the only one with a real job and cut to the chase?

• 1:00:35Speaker 02

  Uh, no, because Casey, you have a very real job.

• 1:00:39Speaker 03

  Is it though?

• 1:00:41Speaker 02

  Oh, okay. You're right. Game engine design and making games amazing is totally not real.

• 1:00:46Speaker 01

  Well, he's gonna be left behind.

• 1:00:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's actually being left behind right now.

• 1:00:51Speaker 01

  Casey's getting left behind. Every time we see him, he's even more behind.

• 1:00:54Speaker 03

  I'm pretty far behind.

• 1:00:56Speaker 01

  Every episode, you should scoot back an inch.

• 1:01:02Speaker 02

  Casey, I don't know if you know this, but 2010 Unity came out, so why don't you quit being such an idiot and just use a real engine?

• 1:01:07Speaker 03

  It does sound right.

• 1:01:08Speaker 02

  I forgot where I was going with this statement.

• 1:01:10Speaker 00

  Trash works at a real job and you want him to give you an opinion on something.

• 1:01:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, trash, trash. As somebody who works in a real job, is in a real, I said web influencing. That's why I actually specifically said that. Because Casey, I just assume is not talking about web standards ever in his life, if possible. Uh, with that in mind, how much of the work nowadays in your sphere is like AI driven completely? Or it's like the expectation that you have to do that? Like, is it falling behind for somebody in your position not to use AI?

• 1:01:42Speaker 01

  Uh, it depends on where you are in the work. So I think there's a lot of things within TV that AI really can't help with. Because obviously we have a lot of proprietary stuff.

• 1:01:54Speaker 01

  That's like maybe not documented the best. So that's where like the expertise of like maybe your previous team or adjacent teams will come in and AI can't really help. Right? So when it comes to like hardcore performance stuff, you know, you can, we've actually tried to throw like a bunch of LLMs at it. Sometimes it falls short. Sometimes it hallucinates. But then there's like the standard stuff, which is like product facing.

• 1:02:15Speaker 01

  AI will typically shine through there, I think. But I think, and this is specific to my company, but I think all companies as a whole, everyone's getting pushed to go agentic coding fully. So we can fully realize our output and then we can then calibrate our personnel at some point, right? And I'm not speaking for my company. I'm just saying, that's just like something I've been seeing. But I don't think that's actually turning out the way these companies think it was gonna turn out. As in like, we're gonna shrink our personnel, but still keep the same velocity. I think they're just keeping the same velocity as they were before, but they're spending way more money.

• 1:02:50Speaker 01

  And I think that's like the brutal reality every single company is seeing now. Because engineers aren't like, yeah, I'm 10 times more productive to work for you. Like, no one's actually wanting to be more productive when they can do less, but have the same input they had before. And I think that's like the actual reality. Unless they're like founders, of course, they're gonna pump out stuff. But I think like your standard personnel does not have that mindset. And I'm not saying I have that mindset. I work very hard, by the way.

• 1:03:15Speaker 03

  Right. Trash in particular did 10x his output, but only him.

• 1:03:19Speaker 01

  I'm a 10x-er.

• 1:03:20Speaker 03

  Only him, everyone else. To go back to the original point we made about, about LLM usage. He was 10x, everyone else, same output.

• 1:03:30Speaker 01

  There is like some one thing that kind of bothers me and it's not within my company, but just in general is, and it's something we tapped on earlier. It's like when you do see those PRs that are clearly generated, like, why should I look at this? You know what I mean? It's like, I'll have, just use another agent to look at your agent's work. Like, that part is still like something that really frustrates me within our industry now. It's, we're outputting all this stuff, but then there's like an expectation of a human to read it because we don't fully trust agents. But there's just so much coming through. No one even has time to do it. So I don't know. I'm kind of torn there. Anyways.

• 1:04:07Speaker 02

  I did see someone wrote a kind of like an excellent, I forget who said this or where I saw it, but which was this idea that by you using an LLM to kind of generate your thoughts, you're really putting the onus of correctness on somebody else. Like, you're not even validating it yourself first and then passing it on. And so it's actually, in some sense, you could consider it like a pretty rude action, like something you would never do just like two years ago. Is now something that people just do all the time. Like, I didn't even prove reading. Like, it's LLM said it was correct. It's just like, dude, that's crazy. Like, what are you doing? Why are you doing that to other people? You're making four other people do the work that you could have done first.

• 1:04:44Speaker 03

  I would never, I would never do anything like that. Like, I always come up with this, all my original thoughts myself. The other day I was thinking about like this lighthouse that was like milking a cartographer, like really hard. And I was just like, that, this is like really smart, what I thought of. And so I wrote that down.

• 1:05:02Speaker 00

  Okay, that's very, that's very impressive, Casey. I'm extremely impressed with you.

• 1:05:06Speaker 01

  That's the one thing that, my mindset's different on AI usage, like with it for work and outside of work is, if I'm gonna make a PR that's like generated through an LLM, I need to make damn sure I can like, know exactly what it's doing. Because if someone asks me, what does it do, like in a meeting, and I can't answer that, that's like, my ass is on the line. So that's like my, that's like the situation I fear the most, where it's like, yeah, can you explain it to me? And if I can't do that, just fire me, dude. So that's kind of like how I handle that kind of stuff, like within like actual professional environments, so.

• 1:05:39Speaker 03

  Can you ask the LLM, can you expla, please also write up what I'm supposed to say in a meeting if someone asks me what this PR does? Return, and then just remember that statement.

• 1:05:50Speaker 01

  It's true. It's true. I actually have my own agent at work now.

• 1:05:53Speaker 03

  You just changed this whole workflow?

• 1:05:56Speaker 03

  You're welcome, Trash. I've solved it.

• 1:05:58Speaker 01

  I have my own agent at work and like if someone asks me a question, I like tag my agent. I'm like, can you go figure this out? And they're just like watching it all real time. I'm like, there you go, buddy. Thumbs up. It's nice. It's nice.

• 1:06:09Speaker 03

  All right.

• 1:06:10Speaker 02

  All right. Does anybody here have an opposing opinion? Does anyone here think that what Codeberg did was a net negative?

• 1:06:17Speaker 00

  Oh, not negative.

• 1:06:19Speaker 02

  Or at least negative to some, some degree. Because obviously people on the internet, there's a lot of people that were just like, you know, losing it. I saw people being like, I'm not even gonna donate anymore, right? I linked in one of the videos, some random guy. I could find the exact drop tweet.

• 1:06:33Speaker 00

  The, the, the biggest complaint I have with it is the concept around it being mostly AI generated. I think, I think of a project that, like I use quite a bit that's called Alchemy. That's how we deploy a bunch of stuff, like for, that we've been testing out for different projects. And it basically like helps you make sure your infrastructure actually like type checks, more or less, is like the very short answer of it. So that like, if I say that this thing needs a database, we actually like have a Postgres database accessible to this service, right? Like that kind of thing.

• 1:07:12Speaker 00

  And one of the cool things they do is they have like a, I don't even know how many, an insane amount of agents like spinning up and like going and hitting AWS or like CloudFlare or like all these different people in like a bunch of insane ways. And then just like recording all of the possible error codes that they get back. Which, believe it or not, are not the same error codes that are in the specs for these systems.

• 1:07:34Speaker 03

  Shocking.

• 1:07:36Speaker 00

  Shockingly, the thing that they say might happen under certain circumstances doesn't actually happen. And the only way that they're finding the list of all the ways those things might fail or the time that it might take between when it says it's gonna deploy and not, and all these other things, right?

• 1:07:54Speaker 00

  Is like actually just run it and see, and then like keep running them again later and make sure that it's still the same. Because they are constantly shipping updates, right? But like, a crazy amount of that is like all, well, you could say like it's all AI. Right? Like depending on what your definition of it is. But I'm like, well, that seems like a pretty good use case of like, we're gonna go make the computer hit the other computer in a bunch of different ways until we find out all the ways that it can fail, or at least many more than what's in the spec.

• 1:08:27Speaker 00

  Would that not be allowed on Codeberg? You know what I'm saying? Like that part? I don't, that's the part where I just don't like them mostly. Because I think some projects are like very intentional about the way that they're doing AI. And I like Casey's sort of more like, is it a waste of someone else's time? Like, that, that's what I don't like. Or is it a waste of like Codeberg's resources in the sense of like, are you pushing a thousand times a second to our thing and uploading? Like, just insane diffs and committing binaries and like destroying it? Some of those though, I don't think you can solve with like a, I don't know, like a policy at, like a words policy. It just has to be a money policy. Like, cool, you get this many commits per day for free and then after this, you just have to pay.

• 1:09:12Speaker 00

  Like, stop doing this. You're abusing the system. Even like if you're not doing it in AI, like if I just did a script that incremented a number and then committed and pushed it to Codeberg, I should also get banned. There's no AI involved, you know what I mean? I'm just literally wasting their resources. So like, that's the part where I don't really like. And I think Prime, you talked about it in your video, but not today. The other thing is like this sort of single use or like single person software. I love single person software. I think the demand for software is unlimited. Like, like the more personalized and better software could be, the more people will want it to do more things for them. Unfortunately, we're currently just at like we're getting more software, but maybe less quality stage.

• 1:09:53Speaker 00

  But like maybe someday hypothetically, you could have it be personalized for you and really good. So that's the other part that I wasn't a huge fan of.

• 1:10:03Speaker 00

  In their sort of list of reasons, yeah.

• 1:10:06Speaker 02

  I'll echo that one. I said in the video, I released a video by the way today on the Codeberg thing, just my thoughts, which is one of them is on this idea that like, single use or personal use software is a net negative and you should always have software that's like attempting to create a community, or bring people around, or is maintained long-term. And it's just like, well, 90% of my ideas are trash anyways. I just need to actually like go and discover them and use them for three months and go, oh, actually, no, this was really actually a bad idea. And so, making that things, you know, making that discovery process smaller is really good. And I can rewrite it and make it into something amazing. But the discovery process is actually really hard. And all like, big projects start off

• 1:10:48Speaker 02

  as personal use. You know, even Linux was just, was Linus being like, dude, check out my toy operating system I made as a research project. It's just like, well, okay, yeah, he's just, he was just checking things out. It wasn't, it wasn't like, I'm gonna make the greatest operating system of all time that everybody will eventually say is the year of my operating system. Every year for 15 years.

• 1:11:09Speaker 03

  It could be that what Codeberg is basically saying, though, and again, I don't know. Maybe what they're saying is like, look, that's just not what we do here. Right. Like, you know, like, they might not be saying, don't do that. They might just be saying, Codeberg is for when you want a community around your project. If that's what you're doing, you come here. If you'd want to do something else, go to GitHub, go to whatever you, wherever you want, we don't care. There's plenty of other places that can host your source code. If you want to do a community-centered project, that's what we do. We're about humans. We're about people coming together and working on projects. And again, like, I don't know if that's what they're saying, but if that's their thing, then that's their thing, right? They're the ones doing this. We don't have the right to go tell them how to run their

• 1:11:52Speaker 03

  source code control. So at some level, it's like, maybe that's what they want, right?

• 1:11:56Speaker 02

  Oh, I have to interrupt you. Can you say, if that's the thing, that's their thing? Can you re-say that, but with a Boston accent? Can you just make that last quick point with the Boston accent? It was so good.

• 1:12:06Speaker 03

  It's just, it's gonna become, it's gonna become de rigueur if I do it every episode, though. Prime, you really want that?

• 1:12:11Speaker 02

  I just, one more time. Just one more time for the boys.

• 1:12:14Speaker 03

  All right. Okay.

• 1:12:19Speaker 03

  Listen, I don't know what Codeberg's thing is, right? You know, I mean, they gotta do what they're gonna do. Cause they've got, they got so many things that they're thinking about. They got LLMs over here, they're sending all these, you know, commitments and things. It just, it doesn't make any sense. So, they gotta limit the people who use Codeberg to the, to, you know, they gotta limit it to the kind of people that are like them, you know, that have the same kind of opinions, the same kind of needs. They don't want AIs in there doing whatever they're gonna do. Is that what we're talking about? I don't know.

• 1:12:52Speaker 02

  It's just when you said, if that's the thing, that's the thing they're gonna do. Like, when you said it, you actually like, kinda tripped yourself up into like, a minor shadow of an accent. Like, you could actually kinda hear it. And so then I was just like, I just need to hear the thing. But...

• 1:13:04Speaker 01

  Is it, is it easy for you to do it? Is it pretty natural?

• 1:13:07Speaker 03

  No, in fact, that one wasn't that good. Like, so there's this problem that happens with accents. It's hard to do specifically. So, Massachusetts, there's Massachusetts, and there's like, Providence. And so Providence is more Italian-American accent, and Massachusetts is a little bit more. And so that one was more Providence, what I just did. It's really hard for me to, without thinking about it too much, and without the right words. It's hard for me to pick one. So like, I'm trying to think, and I'm not really a master at this. There's, you know, there's people who are really good impressionists, and they know exactly how to do it.

• 1:13:43Speaker 00

  I was gonna say, people who really live in Boston.

• 1:13:46Speaker 01

  That would make sense.

• 1:13:48Speaker 03

  They're experts at this.

• 1:13:50Speaker 01

  Impressionist.

• 1:13:52Speaker 03

  It's like, Codeberg, you're Codeberg. It's like, it's, I don't even know if I know what they would say for Codeberg. Oh, you mean Codeberg, Codeberg? Codeberg? Yeah, I've been to Codeberg, Codeberg. I don't even know how they would say Codeberg. I actually kinda wanna go ask a person with a real Massachusetts accent, how would you say the word Codeberg? Because I don't have a good, like, reference.

• 1:14:14Speaker 01

  Can you, can you say Codeberg's retarded?

• 1:14:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, Codeberg. Codeberg is kinda retarded. Codeberg. Codeberg. I think it'd be kinda, it's almost like, it's like Codeberg. It's like saying Codeberg.

• 1:14:26Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:14:26Speaker 03

  Codeberg. Codeberg. You know, Codeberg. You ever been to Codeberg? You're checking source code to Codeberg. Like that, right? And I feel like it's really hard to get that because there's, the Providence accent's more, it's different, right? It's, it's more like, you know, Codeberg, you know, Codeberg, you're checking the source code to Codeberg. It's like, a little bit different. It's very close, but a little bit different. And so it's hard for me to do them on command.

• 1:14:48Speaker 02

  I have a friend that lives in Boston, and he told me this phrase, and I've, I've been wanting to remember the phrase for so long, but it goes something like, "We dropped our Rs here, cause we pick them up over there." And it's like, this thing where it's like, you say "wata," right? You don't say "wata," right? And so they have this like, whole, he, he like, listed it out for me in this like, really logical way. And it's like, this is why, you know, "warch" is like, you know, or whatever it was.

• 1:15:08Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 1:15:08Speaker 01

  "Warch."

• 1:15:09Speaker 02

  And then you're just like, oh, okay, so you dropped Rs here to pick them up over there.

• 1:15:13Speaker 03

  There's also like, uh, New England and the surrounding areas are just like, an accent festival, right? Because there's like, yeah, there's like, "wata," there's like, uh, there's also "wutter," which is like, a Pennsylvania, like, like, there's, there's a, there's like, in the Pennsylvania area, they have like, something like, "wutter." It's almost like, a different way of saying it. There's so many ways. And like, "chocolate," "chocolate," there's a whole bunch of different, like, uh, sayings. So, haven't, we need to get some people on. Find a person with a real Boston accent, we'll have him on, say, "Codeberg." I don't know who that would be.

• 1:15:47Speaker 02

  I actually have somebody right now, the person who told me this, I have him up on Facebook. I just logged into Facebook for the first time in a decade.

• 1:15:54Speaker 03

  Be like, hey, bro, how would you say Codeberg?

• 1:15:57Speaker 02

  He currently lives in Boston right now. So, I mean, this guy is...

• 1:16:00Speaker 00

  Crazy. Those are hard to find.

• 1:16:02Speaker 01

  Is he from Boston? Or did he just like, move there last week?

• 1:16:04Speaker 02

  From Boston. I went to his, I went to like, the home he grew up, I went to the home he grew up in.

• 1:16:11Speaker 00

  We should end the episode.

• 1:16:16Speaker 02

  I can just feel it coming. It's starting to come out of me.

• 1:16:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, we, yeah, all right. Thanks, everybody, for joining us on today's episode of Stand Up.

• 1:16:25Speaker 03

  It's been a wonderful stand-up. Thanks, everyone, for joining us. Prime is busy right now.

• 1:16:30Speaker 02

  I've tried to send a message to this guy.

• 1:16:32Speaker 03

  He's really busy right now. So, we'll see you next time.

• 1:16:37Speaker 02

  Bye-bye.