1968 Predicted Every Modern Tech Problem

[Sponsor] Linear helps teams track issues, manage projects, collaborate on docs, and ship products - and the crazy thing is their software is actually fast and a joy to use. Learn more: https://trm.sh/linear [Description] In this episode of The Standup, Casey Muratori joins us to look at the fascinating parallels between 1968 tech and today. We examine the original context of "premature optimization is the root of all evil" and flip through the pages of Datamation from over 50 years ago. It’s a wild trip through early ray tracing, the birth of firmware, and the first mentions of virtual machines. [Sources] Dax Fraud Tweet: https://x.com/thdxr/status/2092238606987370884 Stripes Fraud Pricing Update: https://support.stripe.com/questions/updates-to-radar-pricing-(january-2027) Caseys BSC 2025 Talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo84LFzx5nI Caseys BSC 2026 Talk: http://computerenhance.com/theroot (lots more sources here too) Programmer of the Month (Edsger Dijkstra) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnMnXsmxoHc

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Are you going to the moon, Prime?

• 0:01Speaker 01

  No, I'm not going to the moon, but I have.

• 0:02Speaker 00

  Dang it, that was the thing I announced to Trash earlier.

• 0:07Speaker 01

  I'm going to the moon SpaceX sponsorship. That'd be an insane sponsorship.

• 0:13Speaker 02

  That would be sick.

• 0:13Speaker 01

  I'm gonna stream from the moon. Starling.

• 0:16Speaker 02

  Also, I like imagining that they picked, they picked us. They're like, of all the people they could send to the moon.

• 0:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 0:22Speaker 02

  Probably Prime and Teach would probably do the funniest stream from the moon.

• 0:26Speaker 00

  It's like, it'd basically be like, Prime is right in the middle of one small step for man, one giant leap for mankind, and like Riverside would like, would like, and Teach would interrupt, and Riverside would rearrange all the windows. It's like, okay.

• 0:41Speaker 01

  It's one small step, yeah, real small step, Prime. Look how tiny those little legs are. They're like, shut up, man, I'm doing my speech.

• 0:48Speaker 02

  Try taking, try taking a bigger step, bro. Like, what?

• 0:56Speaker 01

  Uh, anyways, I'm sorry. Can a man get started today?

• 0:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 0:59Speaker 03

  Big shout out to Big Z. She sent me some snacks today.

• 1:03Speaker 00

  Thanks, Lindsay.

• 1:04Speaker 01

  Thanks, Lindsay.

• 1:05Speaker 03

  Bought a Sour Patch Kids and Cooler Ranch Doritos.

• 1:09Speaker 01

  Now, now, now Trash, that seems kind of like a pretty basic snack pool. Like, how, how does that make you feel? Like, is it, is it pretty basic? Do you feel like?

• 1:19Speaker 03

  That's why I asked for it. The classic. It's classic.

• 1:21Speaker 01

  It's the classic, you're pretty happy about hitting that lap?

• 1:23Speaker 00

  Those are his staple food groups, Prime. That's like the basis of his diet.

• 1:26Speaker 03

  I got, I got my fruits. I got my fruits. I got my, I got my grains.

• 1:32Speaker 00

  We, ancient grains.

• 1:34Speaker 03

  Liquid? It's water. I'm drinking water at least, so that's good.

• 1:37Speaker 01

  Wow, you're drinking water.

• 1:38Speaker 00

  Prime, what are you drinking today?

• 1:40Speaker 01

  I am drinking water with a little bit of a very special Chinese formula.

• 1:45Speaker 02

  Cause I brought my coffee.

• 1:49Speaker 01

  Wait, TJ, is that, did, wait, did you actually put a liter and a half of coffee in there? Cause that looks like the big boy.

• 1:55Speaker 02

  It is a liter and a half, isn't it? I did a whole Karaf just to bring this today, cause I knew you were gonna have a stupidly large mason jar.

• 2:04Speaker 03

  I gotta bust out my mason jars now.

• 2:06Speaker 01

  I know, but now that's, yours is like stupidly large for coffee. That's way larger.

• 2:12Speaker 02

  And?

• 2:12Speaker 01

  All right, hey, shall we get started?

• 2:14Speaker 00

  We could.

• 2:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:15Speaker 01

  Well, all right, welcome to the standup. Today, we have a very special guest who's on here every single week. Casey Muratori, legendary game dev, giving us a presentation. And also, he did have a, a brief blocker at the beginning. And I was wondering, I actually put these both in review, like, in progress, so we're doing them at the same time, but I was just wondering if you can recall the brief blocker, Casey, that you had?

• 2:40Speaker 00

  Gosh, do I recall the brief blocker that I had? I probably have to go look back at the Discord and hope that I, I typed it in there, because I never remember. Um.

• 2:50Speaker 01

  Okay, uh, well, while you do that, I will say that this is the-

• 2:52Speaker 00

  Oh, Dax's credit card fraud. Was it Dax's credit card fraud?

• 2:55Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:56Speaker 02

  I love hearing it. Dax's credit card fraud is awesome.

• 2:59Speaker 01

  Dax's credit card fraud. Let's go.

• 3:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, so I was feeling this so, like, I was, I was perfectly in, in, uh, empathy with Dax on this, because he posted like a screenshot of their Stripe, you know, they, they had like, here's, here's what our Stripe blocked payments was, right? And he's like, this is larger like than the entire like revenue of the company, just what the-

• 3:25Speaker 01

  Can I throw something out there really quickly?

• 3:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:27Speaker 01

  Dax runs a company called OpenCode, which has-

• 3:29Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 3:29Speaker 01

  Something like 15 million reoccurring users per month, or whatever, average monthly users or average weekly users. I can't remember. It's a very large number. And he's been battling credit card fraud, and he's been posting numbers of exactly how much fraud he has. And this is when Casey is like, I gotta say something.

• 3:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, and like, it was, you know, the, the number was like over $300 million of just like blocked fraudulent payments. And it wasn't, that wasn't like this year. That was like, I don't remember what it was. It was like a week or a month or a day, or whatever. It was like-

• 4:01Speaker 01

  It was yesterday.

• 4:02Speaker 00

  It was like yesterday.

• 4:03Speaker 01

  It was insane.

• 4:04Speaker 00

  It was ridiculous, right? It was completely out of control.

• 4:06Speaker 01

  If you're anything like me, you have a bunch of ideas, but perhaps you're a bit disorganized. So often, I find myself having a long brainstorming session, but at the end of it, I just have a big markdown file, and then, of course, at that point, I've lost everything. Hey, stop doing that. You gotta check out Linear and use the Linear MCP. I have a big conversation, I come up with a bunch of ideas, and at the end, I get a set of tickets that are actually all the things that I need to do. And when I don't know what to work on, I go, hey, agent, go to Linear and tell me what I need to do next, and it will find exactly what I need to work on. This has been so successful for me that I'm in actual serious danger of completing a project. Go to linear.app/terminal and

• 4:49Speaker 01

  get six months for free on Linear. Thank you for supporting the channel, and thank you Linear for sponsoring the video.

• 4:54Speaker 00

  The reason I find this so absurd is because everyone, no matter how small or large your business is, knows that this is an absurd problem, that just, that people can just take credit cards and put them into a form, and then that actually just shows up as a charge. And that then, when it turns out to be fraudulent, which of course it will a bunch of times, because there's no safeguards on it, uh, you are responsible for dealing with that. And there's two ways that you're responsible for dealing with that. Either one, you have to pay extra money to someone like Stripe, significant amounts of extra money-

• 5:32Speaker 03

  Right.

• 5:33Speaker 00

  For them to try and block it for you. They actually charge you differently now, too, based on how like, like, good you want the blocking to be. So it's like a closet, I swear, I swear to God, I'm not making that up.

• 5:43Speaker 02

  I did not know this. That's insane.

• 5:44Speaker 03

  I just want medium effort. I just want medium effort blocking.

• 5:47Speaker 02

  Well, it's like the reasoning effort for your LLMs, you know?

• 5:51Speaker 00

  Well, uh, maybe I can, I mean, you know, just really briefly here, I, I might actually have the, uh, the actual verbiage that they use to announce this, cause I remember, uh, reading it pretty, oh yeah. Uh, here it is. It's an email that I got from them. It says, introducing new Stripe Radar plans and pricing. As fraud on the internet has accelerated over the past few years, we've been rapidly adding to Radar our fraud prevention product. Last year, we blocked $110 billion in fraud and shipped dozens of new features. With so much new functionality, we're introducing four tiers: light, standard, plus, and pro,

• 6:31Speaker 00

  and updated pricing. So, you actually have four choices with how much fraud do you want, I guess, and you get to pay Stripe based on how much you want them to prevent it. Now, to me, this is absurd, because the entire point of the payment base layer, which is not Stripe, by the way, Stripe is like one above the payment base layer, like Visa and Mastercard.

• 6:55Speaker 01

  It's a payment aggregator.

• 6:57Speaker 00

  Exactly. They're, they're, they're a payment processor, like, you know, that, that handles all the other stuff for you. Essentially, Visa and Mastercard is doing nothing. There shouldn't be like, basically any fraud. They should have designed a secure system that makes it so that it's highly unlikely, like, that you have to be like, literally social engineered in person or something, right? To have this kind of thing happen, but like, at least in the US, I know, I think Europe actually does this a lot better. They have a lot more direct, like, PIN-based stuff, or where you have a bank app that you use to like approve it and things. But in the US, you know, we have like two-factor authentication for stuff like your Twitter login, but your credit card, zero-factor authentication. It's just type in the number. That's it. You

• 7:41Speaker 00

  can type in the number, and the date, and the CVV, you get the money, right? And the only thing stopping you from committing that credit card fraud is basically a bunch of machine learning that sits on top of that at some place like Stripe and goes, hmm, okay, like, based on the IP address of this person, do I think it's that person or not? I can say from experience of running a not particularly large company, certainly nowhere the size of Dax is, that we still get tons of fraud that gets through Stripe. So not like, and so Dax also does. Like, if they're seeing that level of fraud that Stripe blocked, they are seeing not that much, but they are seeing a level that Stripe did not block,

• 8:25Speaker 00

  that they then are on the hook for, and they pay fees. Like, there's the, the, they actually charge you, charge you, when someone does a fraudulent payment to you. Uh, that gets passed through to you as a basically chargeback, uh, um, I don't know what you call it, penalty, if you will. It's, this system sucks. It needs to be fixed, and it really, I, I don't think it's acceptable that people are now making businesses out of charging you to fix what is a completely broken payment system, instead of someone actually fixing the broken payment system. Which you, by the way, pay constantly, cause Visa and Mastercard are doing just fine.

• 9:04Speaker 03

  Right.

• 9:05Speaker 02

  So Casey, um, I don't know if you've heard of it, but there's this little thing called cryptocurrency. I've got a few coins that I think are gonna solve the exact problems that you're looking for. My primary one, Teach Coin. I think it's, speaking of going to the moon, am I right? Am I right, boys?

• 9:24Speaker 03

  Let's pump it.

• 9:25Speaker 01

  Nice callback right there. It is kind of absurd that we live in a system that the only solution is, I don't know, good luck, good luck.

• 9:34Speaker 00

  Yeah. And, or crypto, or like, I don't know, try some random cryptocurrency and hope that you're, and, and that's an adoption problem, right, too, where it's like, the problem is none of your customers do that, right? They don't, they don't have like, they don't have Teach Coin. I know we all want them to have Teach Coin.

• 9:50Speaker 01

  I want Teach Coin, okay? Teach hasn't even shared Teach Coin with me.

• 9:54Speaker 02

  World Coin, wow, that's really a throwback.

• 9:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:57Speaker 01

  That is.

• 9:58Speaker 03

  Is that still a thing?

• 9:58Speaker 00

  So, yeah, yes.

• 10:02Speaker 01

  And that's part two of Sam Altman's adventure.

• 10:04Speaker 00

  Anyway, that's just a blocker rant, cause it's not getting fixed. It's pretty clear that we're just like, because too many people are just like sort of siphoning money off of that system now, uh, that like, they don't want to fix it. And I don't know why other, I guess no one else has a big enough coalition to basically like, cause the government could solve this pretty quickly. They had just passed a law that was like, you can't pass on, like, you, you eat the fraud, right? Like, payment, payment processors eat the fraud. Then this would get fixed overnight. That would be the end. Like, there'd be no more, you can just type in a credit card. As soon as Visa and Mastercard were on the hook for that, then that's over, right?

• 10:40Speaker 01

  Yes, because it'd be inconvenient for us, cause we get passed on with some sort of like, hey, is this really you type of-

• 10:46Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 10:46Speaker 01

  Thing, but at least, I would, like, I was charged $2,000 like two weeks ago with someone fraudulently figuring out one of our credit cards. And it's just like-

• 10:54Speaker 00

  It's absurd.

• 10:55Speaker 01

  I have never shopped at this place ever.

• 10:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:57Speaker 01

  How is this happening? And then the place is just like, well, you know, you shouldn't have done that. And I'm like, I didn't do anything!

• 11:03Speaker 00

  What'd you get, Prime? What'd you order?

• 11:05Speaker 01

  A bunch of like, it wasn't Timu, but it was something like Timu, and it was like $2,000 of Timu. And I was just like, bro, I have never shopped there in our life.

• 11:15Speaker 00

  That's, that's everything on Timu. What am I, what am I gonna do with everything on Timu for $2,000? You could buy the entire warehouse.

• 11:23Speaker 01

  You could practically buy the company for $2,000, right?

• 11:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, anyway, that's the only blocker. Not much to say, but yeah, I mean,

• 11:33Speaker 00

  what Dax is experiencing on a large scale, everyone else is experiencing at a smaller scale is I guess what I would say.

• 11:39Speaker 01

  And I have to feel particularly bad for specifically AI companies because AI companies also, if a scammer can get through, they can then go on to perform more sophisticated scams. So it is like, it is like, it is the like honey pot of all scammers are AI companies. And so they have to have like, harder, you know, when they're talking about the 100x engineer, they're getting the 100x scammers coming to them.

• 12:05Speaker 00

  I wonder how many times it's happened that somebody used a fraudulent credit card to bootstrap their AI processes to harvest more credit cards and fish more people, which they can then use to then buy more. And so it's just this nice virtuous cycle. It ends up taking up all of Anthropic's like, like data centers with fraud.

• 12:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's definitely like an underwear gnome thing or a sock gnome or whatever it was. I think it's underwear. I can't remember from South Park.

• 12:34Speaker 00

  Underpants gnome.

• 12:36Speaker 01

  Hack AI to be able to like, get more credit cards, get more credit cards to hack. And they're like, then what? Well, we'll then do that and then profit. It's just like, when does it happen though?

• 12:47Speaker 00

  It's gonna happen. It's there's, well, it happens when they charge $2,000 finally and get their Timu items from you.

• 12:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's true. I got Timued.

• 12:56Speaker 02

  Prime, can we go over my blockers that you skipped last time with DHH?

• 13:00Speaker 01

  Okay, I did not know you had blockers, nor do I, uh, did you put them on the linear board?

• 13:04Speaker 00

  Rude, Prime.

• 13:05Speaker 02

  They were literally on there. You looked at them and then you just went straight to your only one and then not to mine.

• 13:11Speaker 01

  Just, just to like really make sure that we're on the same team.

• 13:14Speaker 03

  Drama.

• 13:15Speaker 02

  Okay, yeah, that's true.

• 13:16Speaker 01

  Drama. Can you right now put them to in progress?

• 13:19Speaker 00

  If we, if we even have a team at this point, based on that lack of cohesion and, you know, I didn't like that at all.

• 13:27Speaker 03

  The co-CEOs are fighting.

• 13:28Speaker 02

  Mostly it's just because I had a joke, that two jokes that I really wanted to do. It doesn't really matter. The first one was I was gonna ask DHH for watch advice. And then after he gave me some advice, I was hoping that at some point he was gonna ask, why did I want his advice? And I was saying, I just figured it's time. That was the first one that I really wanted.

• 13:48Speaker 01

  That's pretty good.

• 13:50Speaker 02

  And then, since he's been showing off cars, I just wanted to show off a cool Lego car that my son built. So that was it. Just a Spider-Man.

• 13:56Speaker 03

  Is that Spider-Man?

• 13:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:58Speaker 02

  It's a one of one, you know? So that was all, but I just at least wanted to, I wanted to get those out into the universe. I don't know the next time that I'm gonna get to do the watch joke. And I really didn't want it to get lost, apparently in several different linear boards that we're not communicating about. So that's fine.

• 14:12Speaker 01

  Well, TJ, you're kind of out of time on those jokes. So we're just gonna move forward. I know.

• 14:17Speaker 00

  Yeah. By the way, Prime, I should also thank you. Uh, I retold that orange head joke that you referenced. And, and I love it. I love it.

• 14:30Speaker 02

  Trash, we have to tell you offline, it cannot be repeated online because it defeats the purpose of the joke. It's an inside joke.

• 14:37Speaker 01

  It's an inside joke.

• 14:38Speaker 02

  All right.

• 14:39Speaker 01

  And it gets funnier. If you can find one person that's already heard the joke and they get to be a part of you telling it a second time, it is exponentially more funny.

• 14:47Speaker 00

  Okay, I didn't know that. I guess I'll have to do that.

• 14:50Speaker 01

  Wait, because they start seeing it coming and they start seeing the person's face where they're like, and then?

• 14:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 14:56Speaker 01

  And then they like realize how funny it actually is. And then it just turns, it just is painful.

• 15:00Speaker 00

  I think the best part of the joke too is I don't even understand why it's funny. It just is like, like I sort of get it, but not really. Like, I'm like, this really shouldn't be that funny, but it really is.

• 15:10Speaker 01

  I think, I think the, the, the totality of the joke is that man has an insatiable need for more. I think it's like the, like the theoretical joke, but it's just so funny. Hey, by the way, if you see me in person, you can ask me about the, the man with an orange forehead and I'll be glad to talk to you.

• 15:28Speaker 00

  All right. Anyway.

• 15:30Speaker 02

  Casey, I'm not joking you. When Prime first did that, I think the TwitchCon, I don't remember which TwitchCon it was, I, I think I heard the joke 15 plus times.

• 15:41Speaker 01

  But TJ, tell me that there wasn't a point where people were sweating, laughing? Well, one person did not know the punchline. There were, there were times where people were like.

• 15:50Speaker 02

  No, I'm not saying I didn't enjoy the experience. I just want to let you know when Prime's saying multiple times, he's not saying, oh, maybe you get to three over one conference. He's talking double digit numbers. Otherwise it's kind of a rookie situation.

• 16:02Speaker 01

  You have to because you need people that have already heard it because then it gets exponentially more funny.

• 16:09Speaker 01

  All right, Casey, you're on now time. Okay, let me do a little intro here. All right, welcome to the standup. Today we have asked legendary game programmer Casey Muratori to give us an amazing presentation. And what he's gonna do is gonna give us a glimpse of the root of the root of all evil is pre-optimized performance. Dang it, I can't even remember the titles. Too many, too many preferences. Thank you. I'm crushing it.

• 16:35Speaker 02

  I was also gonna say, Prime, I mean, I think we need, at this point, probably add computer historian to Casey's repertoire.

• 16:44Speaker 00

  At this point, maybe.

• 16:46Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 16:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, occasional computer historian, perhaps.

• 16:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay. Today we have with us legendary game programmer and competent and very insightful his, uh, computer historian Casey Muratori.

• 17:01Speaker 00

  You, I love the legendary, like, it's not legendary at all, but now you have made it a thing. And under my videos, people now put legendary game programmer.

• 17:14Speaker 02

  You gotta change your username.

• 17:16Speaker 01

  Wait. Chat, can you guys search Casey on Google?

• 17:19Speaker 00

  Well, I don't know what the legend, there's no legends. There's not a single legend. Anyway.

• 17:26Speaker 01

  The chat, we have the funniest thing we can do. You know, AI overviews? If we keep this up.

• 17:31Speaker 00

  Oh, no.

• 17:32Speaker 01

  AI overview will be like legendary game programmer.

• 17:36Speaker 02

  That's what I wanna see.

• 17:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's what I wanna say.

• 17:38Speaker 03

  Everybody spin up your bots.

• 17:40Speaker 00

  So, uh, the legend is about how, how I started being called legendary. That's the actual only legend. And that will be an actual legend since people will have to explain it because it doesn't make any sense. Anyway, um, yeah, so a lot, a lot of people last year saw that big oops talk that I did. Because for some reason it was very popular, which was just luck, I guess. Because it's very long. Um, it's very long and I wasn't expecting that. So just like, I don't know, people were in the mood for a, a longer thing. So that was cool. And so a lot of people watched the big oops. That was my Better Software Conference 2025 talk. So for Better Software Conference 2026, I just wanted to do, uh, one more of those. They're very hard to do.

• 18:25Speaker 00

  I think I've talked about this before. You have to just read a tremendous amount and you have to condense things down so dramatically that like you're leaving most of the things out. Uh, you know, a lot of people ask me like, why didn't you talk about X or this, that? I'm like, because bro, there is so much stuff you can't talk about, even spending two hours. There's just, I mean, it was thousands of pages of documentation. Everything had interesting stuff in it. I mean, computer history is just chock full of things. It's hard to get through a single paper without being like, wow, like this would be cool to talk about, but just doesn't fit here or whatever.

• 19:01Speaker 00

  So anyway, um, so this year I wanted to do one more of those and it was, uh, on the phrase premature optimization is the root of all evil. And the reason I wanted to do that one is because I, before I started researching it a while ago, I actually didn't really know the circumstances around the sort of like first times it was committed to page, if you will, like written into an article and or had, uh, examples shown about it. And I kind of wanted to go, I, I knew about the original sort of citing in the Knuth paper.

• 19:39Speaker 00

  Sort of the first paper anyone wrote that has it in it. Knuth actually said it, uh, uh, according to a transcript, he said it in a lecture slightly before that paper was printed, but the paper's manuscript had already been submitted at the time. So this is like the first time it would have ever really been committed to paper as far as I know. Obviously people probably were saying it before that, but anyway. So I wanted to find out more about like, why it got said, like, why would someone like Knuth write it down? You know, what was going on at that time period? I just kind of wanted to get it more than I did because I just didn't really know. And I obviously know Knuth's like research. I know he has the, uh, Art of Computer Programming series and a lot of other books.

• 20:20Speaker 00

  He has a street math book and all these like publications, all that stuff, but I never really like knew much about his history. And so I kind of started like looking into all of that and, and kind of found this whole story about structured programming and what was going on at the time that I found really educational. So really the talk is just an attempt to kind of share that point in history. It's like, here's kind of what they were thinking about, what they were tackling, what professors like Knuth were looking at at that time. And once you kind of know all that, I think it puts the phrase in much better perspective about what like it actually means. It's like a really much more tangible

• 21:02Speaker 00

  way you can relate to the phrase. So anyway, that's what the lecture is. And, uh, and, and it's exactly like the big oops where I, you know, I use pretty much exclusively excerpts from source material to kind of like give you a sense of everything that was going on and who is involved and all this other stuff. So, um, that's up now. The VOD is up. You can get to it easily if you just go to computerenhance.com slash the root.

• 21:30Speaker 00

  All one word, the route. It will take you directly there. And I have a page where it's got the YouTube video of the talk and then references, hyperlinked, so you can actually like, any of the slides that you see, if you're like, I want to read more of that, I'd like to see the original, they're all hyperlinked on that page. You can just click through and get them and read the original references. Sometimes they're paywalled because they're at like, you know, it was an institute, like, you know, it's IEEE's, like, you know, publication that isn't available for free currently or whatever, so. But most of the time, there's just a freely available PDF that the author has posted or whatever, or that journalist is out

• 22:13Speaker 00

  out of print for so long that it's just on, you know, they just put their archives online, so.

• 22:17Speaker 01

  Casey, you know that you could, oh, never mind, never mind, my joke I just realized completely doesn't work. Keep on going.

• 22:23Speaker 00

  Prime, we can fix it in person.

• 22:24Speaker 03

  I have an actual question.

• 22:25Speaker 02

  Josh, definitely leave it in.

• 22:26Speaker 00

  Prime, go again.

• 22:27Speaker 01

  No, I can't, because I thought computer enhance was CH for abbreviating it or for initializing it, but then I realized there's the EN, then it could have been CH route. It could have been Chroot.

• 22:39Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 22:40Speaker 01

  It would have been so awesome, but then I realized I'm an idiot.

• 22:43Speaker 00

  I need to capitalize, it used to be like computer and Hans with like a big H and then it can. Okay, sorry, what were you gonna say, trash?

• 22:51Speaker 02

  Hans.

• 22:51Speaker 00

  Trash.

• 22:53Speaker 03

  Real question, what does, for these long talks, like, how many hours does it take to, like, what's the level of effort that you're going through to make these long talks?

• 23:03Speaker 00

  Way too much, I guess is what I'd say. Typically, I do like, typically, the the idea or basis research comes from something I happened to do earlier, so like a year or two ago or something like that. And then I spend, it's just like, I don't know, maybe like, two weeks of 16-hour days, like, straight, just going through all the material, clipping it out. It's like, because I can't afford to spend that much time on them, and I have to go through so much history that's just, it's really brutal. Because then just going back and, you know, going through all the papers again, finding new papers, answering questions that like, are like, oh, this,

• 23:47Speaker 00

  what about this part? Like, where's that reference? Or why did this person do this? Can I find something? And so it's really, really brutal, and I don't recommend it. I don't recommend it at all to anyone.

• 24:01Speaker 01

  My rule of thumb has always been 40 hours per hour when it comes to a conference talk.

• 24:07Speaker 00

  Um, that's.

• 24:08Speaker 01

  Yours sounds even higher.

• 24:10Speaker 00

  It's higher than that just because of the nature of the work, because of how much reading is involved. And, and I think, you know, one of the things that I sort of talked about with Dmitry, because we do that AI podcast, and we do an episode, it'll be coming out later, where I, I sent him like a paragraph describing like the research, and I was like, Dmitry, have the, have the AIs do it, and we'll compare them, like, afterwards on an episode, we'll go through it and see like how they did. Because it was gonna be like a, kind of a shoot down episode, right, where we go like, here's what Anthropic got, here's what

• 24:50Speaker 00

  OpenAI got, here's what Gemini got, because now I know the thing like backwards and forwards, I can kind of be like, who did what, when, and how.

• 24:59Speaker 00

  And like, one thing I was thinking about on that episode too, was just, I don't know how you speed this process up. You can't really outsource it to an AI or something like that, or even a research assistant, because the valuable part is you exploring the text, without a preconceived notion of like what the questions are that you want to have answered, right? And so it's kind of this, it's this really difficult problem of making a talk like this, it's, the value comes from you immersing yourself in the material, not from answering a particular question.

• 25:38Speaker 00

  And so it's very hard also to figure out how you would accelerate it, like, using, using AI, using assistants, using whatever, I just, it's, it's not really, I don't know, it just kind of is a long process, is I guess all I would say, and so, eh.

• 25:56Speaker 01

  I've been, I've been trying to do that as well, seeing if I can like, can I do research and all that? And then at the end of the time, after spending, you know, three hours getting research from an AI, I go, ah, shit, I have to read the paper anyways. And so then I just go read it, like, either way, and so now I just like, well, I can't say this thing, because I don't even actually know how accurate it is, or if it really is the like, the thing I'm thinking, and so then.

• 26:17Speaker 00

  And, and I wouldn't, like, I don't want to say it too strongly, because since I haven't tried actually using AI to prepare a talk like this, I don't know if maybe like, you could come up with a workflow that sort of works.

• 26:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:30Speaker 00

  But in my experience, like, you know, you doing, reading all of the papers yourself, like, all the stuff you find is so valuable, and you never knew you were looking for that, right? And so that's just, that's the tough part about it, is it's all about that happenstance, that exploration. I really enjoy it, it's just the time pressure is so brutal. And I never get a chance to rehearse these talks either, so I just have to get up and give the talk just from the slides that I ended up with that are, were done, you know, just before I get up there, right? Because I'm constantly making modifications. And so it's just, it's a, it's a really grueling experience, is I guess what I would say.

• 27:13Speaker 00

  But, so I probably, this is probably it, those are probably the two that I'm ever gonna do. But, you know, I certainly learned a ton when I was doing it.

• 27:22Speaker 03

  Nice.

• 27:23Speaker 02

  I think the stuff for me that I found helpful, using AI for it, is like, finding original sources for stuff, which like, if you have papers already as a starting point, then you can use those, and you could literally read them through, but sometimes you're like, I don't even know, can you like find anything to read? Like, that's very helpful. Um, and to like, even just, you know, hey, can you turn these really badly formatted PDFs or like weird old webpages? Like, you can just ask it, like, I ask it sometimes, I literally say like, just turn this into a webpage locally and H, like, just that I can click through and open it like a book, you know what I'm saying, or some stuff like that, which is helpful.

• 28:02Speaker 00

  Like OCR this for me, because this is a mess.

• 28:05Speaker 01

  Yes, I have a PDF right now that I can't scroll, because of just the way it is on the internet, it just won't scroll, it just is so chunky, so I'm just like, make it different, thank you.

• 28:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Or like, collapse it into something, like, I have this one thing right now where, I just, it goes through, the, the guy who made Obsidian made a thing that like turns most webpages into like really simple like markdown that you can read. So like, use his little package to like turn some stuff into like offline markdown. I can read articles like from my phone. So like, that stuff's pretty nice if you're trying to just like, get stuff going there. And then the other thing I like is for like making animations. If you have to like make animations or like move something around on the screen for the presentation, using AI to like, hey, can you make it so like this thing lights up and then that thing lights up and a line connects the two things?

• 28:54Speaker 02

  And you're like, because I don't want to click that in PowerPoint anymore, I don't know, like that, I graduated from high school already, I don't want to click the animation button anymore.

• 29:04Speaker 00

  What does it make it in? Like, is it making a movie file, or is, are you having it drive PowerPoint and it's still being made in PowerPoint?

• 29:11Speaker 01

  That's your choice.

• 29:12Speaker 02

  That's up to you. That's up to you. The, the one that we've been experimenting with on our side is called Remotion, and it's like, Casey, you won't be happy, so close your ears maybe for part of this, or just, but it like literally runs, it runs in a browser and it more or less screenshots the browser at certain times to construct a video, but then that lets you like reuse all of the CSS animations and everything that already exists, so you'd be like, I want this to ease in from this opacity to that opacity over this time. Cool. You just do that, and then it's more or less like screenshots to, to render them. But the other one that I've done for other stuff is just literally like, hey,

• 29:54Speaker 02

  write me a static HTML page that is the slides, and use JavaScript in the browser to move it, and I can just like fullscreen it, you know, and then like that works, and it will run on another computer, which is helpful.

• 30:06Speaker 00

  You present in a brow, you basically just present in a browser.

• 30:09Speaker 02

  Right, just fullscreen the browser and then click next, next, next, right.

• 30:12Speaker 01

  Casey, look at this one right here. See this beautiful thing right here?

• 30:15Speaker 00

  Uh, well, I mean, it's Riverside, so no, but I mean, yes.

• 30:19Speaker 01

  So I can press this, and I made a screenplay in the Tuie. Those are stars in the Tuie. And there's the, there's the lander right there, the Apollo lander. I can put like a little disco right here next to it.

• 30:31Speaker 00

  Why is it Apollo lid? What's going on, Prime? This was the, the moonshot referred to earlier?

• 30:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, doing that. We, you know, I have some nice like.

• 30:38Speaker 02

  Prime, he doesn't know why you're making it, is what I'm saying.

• 30:40Speaker 00

  No, I don't.

• 30:41Speaker 01

  I'm doing a video on it, and so I can also like, get some nice, that's a particle effect. I made a particle effect right there.

• 30:48Speaker 03

  A video on Apollo or how you made the game?

• 30:50Speaker 01

  No, Apollo, like the, the story of the airs, because I'm learning about it. And so there you go, see? You can do animations.

• 30:57Speaker 02

  Research one.

• 30:58Speaker 01

  In the Tuie.

• 31:03Speaker 03

  Do people come out? I wanna see the people. Where's the people?

• 31:05Speaker 02

  I love it.

• 31:06Speaker 01

  I do. So, okay, so I do have a really funny idea for that one, which is gonna be take, uh, take Super Mario, and you know how Super Mario runs and goes on the flagpole and goes down?

• 31:15Speaker 03

  Right.

• 31:16Speaker 01

  Have someone that looks like, you know, standard Mario and jump a couple of moon rocks, ride the thing down, then go in the moon lander, then it shoots off. So instead of going in the camp, so you go in the moon lander and then it takes off.

• 31:25Speaker 02

  That's nice.

• 31:26Speaker 01

  All right. Hey, Casey, you need to kinda keep on going with this presentation. I realize we're pretty far off topic.

• 31:31Speaker 00

  That's okay.

• 31:31Speaker 01

  Thanks, Trash.

• 31:32Speaker 00

  I mean, it's the stand-up. I already gave the talk. If you wanna see the talk, it's there.

• 31:36Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 31:37Speaker 00

  So, so, uh, yeah, there, uh, we were kinda talking about, obviously, these talks are not things I can give other versions of, right? So there's not much I could really do, uh, on the stand-up. But what I kinda wanted to do was figure out something I could show on here that might be fun. Because, you know, I, like I already said when we were talking about this, you basically, you, you don't really have, um, time to put in almost any of the things you found, right? What you see in the talk is like a tiny, tiny little sliver, right, of the actual, um, of the actual stuff, right? And so what I wanted to show here was there's this, um, one of the period, there's, there's multiple periodicals that like everyone read

• 32:22Speaker 00

  at the time. Communications of the ACM, uh, was an example of, of one of those. It's in fact, Communication of the ACM was what that original Donald Knuth structured programming with go-to statements paper where premature application of the root of all evil, where he writes that, uh, that was actually in Communication of the ACM. That was like a very common thing people would, would see. Um, actually, no, that, I'm sorry, uh, that was in computing surveys. Um, Communication of the ACM is kind of like more like has the letter, letters in it and stuff like this. So those periodicals from the Association of Computing, uh, for computing machinery, those are like very common periodicals that lots of people read. But there was this actual magazine called Datamation, D-A-T-A-M-A-T-I-O-N,

• 33:07Speaker 00

  that was a very prominent like trade magazine at the time, and a lot of things are like, are in there. And so I happened to have to read through those, as you'll see in the talk, uh, I had to read through those to like dumpster dive to find this one advertisement that Edgar Dykstra, like, like of the Dykstra algorithm, like that Dykstra, uh,

• 33:31Speaker 01

  Programmer of the Month.

• 33:32Speaker 00

  Refers to multiple times. He, sorry?

• 33:34Speaker 02

  He won Programmer of the Month on Prime's channel. So that was cool.

• 33:38Speaker 00

  Oh. All right. Well, yes, Programmer of the Month. Edgar Dykstra.

• 33:42Speaker 02

  Yep. Very important. Very prestigious.

• 33:45Speaker 01

  It's literally like touring award, Programmer of the Month.

• 33:48Speaker 00

  Yep. Um, yeah, I was gonna say that touring award is kind of like a nice to have, uh, resume patter, but Programmer of the Month is when you know you've really made it, right?

• 33:57Speaker 01

  That's how you know.

• 33:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:58Speaker 03

  I hope I get that one day.

• 34:00Speaker 00

  So someday, we're all aspiring to, to that. Uh, so anyway, in this, this magazine, uh, like Dykstra actually refers to an advertisement derogatorily, refers to an advertisement in this magazine Datamation. And that, that's in the talk. You can, you can go see that. But while I was trying to find this ad that he sort of, you know, cryptically refers to multiple times, I read through all the issues of Datamation, like in 1968. And because they've been digitized by this like preservation, uh, Patreon called Bit Savers. And while I

• 34:42Speaker 00

  was reading through these, it kind of like just struck me how, it, it's weird, but like the more things change, the more they stay the same. In 1968, like, computers were like massive, like most, a lot of them were the size of the room. They were at least cabinet-sized, right? Uh, they had like, you know, teletype for, for like talking to them and stuff. It was like, you know, they're like terminals. Occasionally, you would have a CRT display that could maybe like draw some lines on it for you and things like this. They also had big plotters that they would use, you know? It's that era of computing history. Nobody has a personal computer. That's not a thing. I don't even think the term personal computer would be used at this point, right?

• 35:26Speaker 01

  I think 75? Was that Apple one?

• 35:29Speaker 00

  I don't, I don't know, but like, uh, cause, yeah, but heaven help me.

• 35:33Speaker 01

  It was called a personal computer.

• 35:34Speaker 00

  Yeah. And so, uh, you know, we're talking about 1968. So several years before the, the term, uh, was really a thing that people were thinking about, right? But anyway, when you read through it, it's still kind of nuts. Like, you get this really interesting sense for the time period. The sorts of things that were kinda different, like now you can buy a high resolution CRT for $6,200 in $1968. So, you know, it's kind of interesting to see, uh, how some things have, have, uh, have gotten better. But in a large, to a large extent, the stuff that they talk about is like the exact same stuff we talk about today. So I kinda just wanted to grab some screenshots. I'm sorry, I just ra- rapidly

• 36:17Speaker 00

  did this last night, Prime, when you said, uh, that I should, I should show something today. So these are not as organized as I would like.

• 36:23Speaker 01

  That's perfectly fine. We love to hear from you.

• 36:25Speaker 02

  Casey, I'll just say, that's $60,000 in today's dollars if I did the Google search correctly.

• 36:30Speaker 00

  Yes. It's, it's around 10x. Yes.

• 36:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:34Speaker 00

  Um, so this one, uh, maybe I should move my, um,

• 36:39Speaker 01

  I don't know how to make this fit in the screen properly, but I can just make you small for now, and then that will fit in the screen for me.

• 36:46Speaker 00

  So I don't know if you can see here, but this is an advertise, well, it's not really an advertise, it's announcement for a new product of a 4K display in 1968, right? 4K, 4,096 by 4,096 raster elements, right?

• 37:03Speaker 01

  What are we doing here?

• 37:05Speaker 00

  I'm just, I'm just pointing. I don't know. It's hard to get wordfish about some of these things, but I thought that was kind of cute. Um, anyway, I thought it was kinda cool that we could get some salary comparisons. So again, 10x these. So, you know, here's a partial list of computer careers. $100,000 to $350,000 a year. So,

• 37:26Speaker 02

  Nice.

• 37:27Speaker 00

  It was already like people were getting Silicon Valley salaries.

• 37:31Speaker 02

  True.

• 37:32Speaker 00

  In 1968.

• 37:34Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 37:35Speaker 00

  Which is pretty great. Uh, AI, um, taking over the world and us being very scared about it.

• 37:43Speaker 01

  That was huge during that time.

• 37:45Speaker 00

  Hex upon a learning demonstration. This is by some people, uh, from IBM. And they essentially say that, that, uh, uh, what, what was the good thing? It says, the, um, uh, "This arises from the belief that the computer is a serious threat to man because it poses and it possesses an intelligence that dwarfs mans. Many people do not realize the contribution that programmers make to computer performance. Instead, they ascribe the performance to some inherent mystical ability of the computer. This naturally results in their regard in the computer with considerable awe." And it has, uh, a thing that says, "There is therefore a need to communicate to the public the basic principles underlying computer

• 38:28Speaker 00

  artificial intelligence in order to dissipate some of the mystery surrounding computers." And there's another one in here that I was gonna, uh, point out where they talk a little bit more about the, uh, the degree to which people, uh, in fact, this article itself says, "Accompanying this positive attitude toward computers is an underlying sense of anxiety." Uh, there's, there's more here on here. Anyway, this, these are in no particular order, so we'll get back to that thing that I just showed in a minute.

• 38:56Speaker 01

  Is that a Cope 45?

• 38:57Speaker 00

  That's what I was gonna say. This is, this computer is called the Cope 45.

• 39:03Speaker 02

  Prime, you can reply to people with this on X with this ad. When they say something, you're like, "Uh, here's a Cope 45 for you."

• 39:12Speaker 00

  Okay. The Cope 45 is here, guys. Working now. That is what it says in this ad. The Cope 45. "It provides 100% backup with immediate turnaround in a load and go environment for your library of programs." So, you know,

• 39:28Speaker 01

  That sounds literally just like today's computing, right?

• 39:30Speaker 00

  When people tell you to cope, okay? When people tell you to cope, you tell them, "I cope, I use a Cope 45, uh, for all my backup needs." So, another thing that's exactly the same is everyone was worried about, uh, data mining. In 1968, there was literally this thing called the Long Subcommittee, which they were reporting on in Congress, uh, where they were-

• 39:58Speaker 02

  That's a person's name, though, Casey, right? Not like, uh, they're not just saying-

• 40:01Speaker 00

  Probably is, it's Edward V. Long, a Democrat, a Democrat from Missouri.

• 40:06Speaker 02

  I literally, Casey, I thought you were about to show us something where they were saying, "Guys, turns out having subcommittees that put red tape on everything really makes the program suck." That's what I thought we were about to get.

• 40:20Speaker 00

  That's also separately true. Uh, but if you take a look at this, it basically says, "Citizens' names appear 3 billion times, their age is 2 billion, their marital status 1.5 billion, and their income 1.25 billion." And Senator Long, who was like heading the committee, goes, "Careers before my subcommittee have convinced me that whatever privacy remains for the American citizen remains because the federal government is presently too inefficient to pull all its personal information files together. It is extremely time-consuming and expensive to put your finger on any one individual,

• 40:54Speaker 01

  Come on, stand-up trash.

• 40:56Speaker 00

  "But the proposed federal data bank will make it easier and cheaper to put your whole life history no further than the push of a button away. What good will this technical progress be if we fail to preserve our privacy in 1968?"

• 41:11Speaker 01

  Dude, Long would have lived quite short knowing about flock cameras.

• 41:16Speaker 00

  Oh, uh, flock cameras, you say? Gosh, uh, I wonder if those will come up in a clipping in a couple of slides here. So, um, software as a service, they got you covered. Now you can lease your software with no capital investment, guys.

• 41:34Speaker 02

  What?

• 41:35Speaker 00

  Yep. They had it all figured out. They were like, "Look, you just pay us, and then, you know, for this monthly fee, we will provide the software to you. And when, you know, when you stop paying, we take the software back. It's all good, guys."

• 41:49Speaker 02

  The benefits are great, though. It says right in the article. It says the benefits are great.

• 41:54Speaker 00

  Exactly. Uh, this was the year, 1968, that they decided software could be patented, right? There was a, there was a bill introduced that would have banned software patents, and they decided, "All right, maybe not." That was this year, 1968. So that, that bill, had it been passed, we wouldn't have had software patents. All right. Moving on, I'm just kinda going through these, uh, uh, uh, rapid fire, rapid fire here. This is more about the, the patent, like, office there.

• 42:30Speaker 00

  Okay, so I don't think I need to talk about anything here. I don't even know why I screenshotted that. Why did I screenshot that? Oh, you know why I screenshotted that? I know why I screenshotted that. It's because of, if you look at the table of contents,

• 42:45Speaker 00

  those among you with eagle eyes, with the sharp eyes, the razor sharp eyes of a sharp-eyed stand-up viewer.

• 42:56Speaker 01

  Sex viral.

• 42:57Speaker 00

  Of an eagle.

• 42:58Speaker 03

  Sex viral.

• 42:58Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 42:59Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 43:00Speaker 00

  Will notice, will notice a particularly famous publication here in the April edition.

• 43:09Speaker 01

  computerenhance.com?

• 43:11Speaker 00

  Nope.

• 43:13Speaker 00

  Can anyone see it? Does anyone, can anyone out there see it? Do you see it?

• 43:19Speaker 01

  FCC? No, I don't.

• 43:22Speaker 00

  Number, page 28. "How Do Committees Invent?" by Melvin E. Conway. That is right, Teed. It is the original publication of Conway's Law.

• 43:35Speaker 01

  Whoa.

• 43:36Speaker 03

  That's wild. That's all full circle.

• 43:38Speaker 01

  How did people read it if it was more than 140 characters, Casey?

• 43:43Speaker 00

  I don't know. They were thumbing through this weird dead tree thing and they, I don't know how it worked. It's weird. Really foreign concept. So, this was good. 27 cents for 1,000 characters. That was the price of the

• 43:58Speaker 02

  Oh, I love measuring it in characters. Oh, that's awesome.

• 44:04Speaker 00

  Yep. So here's that Melvin Conway, the original.

• 44:10Speaker 00

  There he is, right there. Very dashing, I would say.

• 44:13Speaker 01

  I was just thinking, dang, that guy's handsome.

• 44:16Speaker 00

  Hey, ladies.

• 44:16Speaker 03

  I'll listen to anything he says.

• 44:18Speaker 00

  Let me tell you about how committees invent.

• 44:25Speaker 00

  So anyway, the term firmware was coined just the prior year. And they were talking about the concept that computers of the future might have firmware in them.

• 44:39Speaker 00

  In 1968. Boy, did they ever. I'd like to tell you about UEFI BIOS.

• 44:47Speaker 00

  Anyway, that's not really quite what he meant by firmware.

• 44:49Speaker 01

  Do you want to tell us about UEFI BIOS in one of these, in a stand-up one day?

• 44:54Speaker 00

  I mean, there's not much to say. It's like something like 2 million lines of code just for, you know, the reference implementation of the thing that is the software on your computer before you use any software on your computer, right? It's nuts. Firmware here, they were kind of thinking of it as being,

• 45:14Speaker 00

  well, no, this is kind of what, I won't go, that doesn't matter. That'd be like a whole rat hole. But anyway, I thought it was kind of fun. It was like, wow, 1968 was the first time they were really talking about firmware. It's the year before 1967, actually, that I think it was first coined. Now, this article, "An Experimental 360/40 for Time-Sharing", 360 being the IBM System 360, and 40 being the Model 40 of that line of computers. I thought this was kind of interesting because they already were talking about like virtual memory and all this stuff, but they were also talking about virtual machines and everyone running on a virtual machine. Like hypervisor, they were like, yeah, yeah, yeah, like, no problem.

• 45:55Speaker 00

  You can read up in the corner here, it says, "If only software is used over as considered to be larger than the supervisor program is assisted by some additional hardware. With this added hardware, the user is not aware of anyone else in the system. In fact, he cannot reach data belonging to others. That part of the physical machine the user sees under these conditions is called a virtual machine, which can but need not have the same specifications as the host machine. In our case, the virtual machine had the same specifications as the host machine." So it's like,

• 46:23Speaker 03

  That's crazy.

• 46:24Speaker 00

  They were just running on VMs. They were like, yep, that's gonna be cool. Don't worry about it. We got it.

• 46:31Speaker 00

  Did you want like continuous integration testing? No problem. They were like, do you need to have like, you know, your tapes tested, things like this?

• 46:41Speaker 03

  Is this an ad?

• 46:42Speaker 00

  Yes, it is.

• 46:43Speaker 01

  I just can't believe how much of this is like right for today.

• 46:46Speaker 00

  No, it's, they just had primitive hardware.

• 46:49Speaker 01

  Fundamental assumptions are wrong. Like, right, like, do you need your tapes tested today? We'd never test tapes today. But it's like, but it's all right.

• 46:55Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 46:58Speaker 00

  Like, we have done nothing, basically. Hardware got a lot better and we just are exactly the same as what was in a Datamation magazine from 1968.

• 47:08Speaker 00

  So, what was this in?

• 47:11Speaker 01

  The end of OS is, I have to, I have to hear about this because I hear agents are operating systems these days.

• 47:16Speaker 00

  Okay, this is a joke. One of the weird things about this is the level of like satire and like just generally horsing around that happened in Datamation magazine is kind of nuts. We'll get to another one of these in a second. But there'd be a lot of these parody articles that are just in there. No call-out, it's not like, oh, this, haha, this is a joke. It's like, we just wrote-

• 47:42Speaker 03

  It's like a Mad Magazine?

• 47:43Speaker 00

  Yes. They would just do that. Every, maybe, maybe every episode, there'd be like two articles that were just straight-up humor. And there was no differentiating them from the completely dry, 100% serious, like the other stuff that I've been showing, right?

• 47:59Speaker 01

  That's awesome.

• 48:00Speaker 00

  Here, they literally say, "A new programming system was announced for delivery in two years to be called assembler stock support, or ASS."

• 48:13Speaker 00

  So it's just like, alright. Good job, guys. The ASCII standard was adopted. So President Lyndon Johnson, I assume.

• 48:25Speaker 01

  LBJ stamped ASCII?

• 48:27Speaker 00

  I think so. I said President Johnson. It could have been another guy, President of, maybe President of the Sanders Institute, I don't know. Just says President Johnson.

• 48:40Speaker 01

  Because, I mean, I have my Petski right here already.

• 48:43Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 48:44Speaker 01

  You know, so ASCII's a big upgrade, I do have to say.

• 48:48Speaker 00

  I, and Lyndon Johnson maybe agrees with you.

• 48:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, Lyndon Johnson helped me get off the Petski. I'm very happy about that.

• 48:54Speaker 00

  So I thought that was kind of cool. It's like, alright. And again, this is not, here's all the back issues of Datamation. This is just 1968. All of this is just from 1968.

• 49:06Speaker 03

  That's insane.

• 49:08Speaker 01

  They only publish one per year, Casey, or how often did they publish? One per month?

• 49:12Speaker 00

  It's one a month, so that's 12 issues of Datamation.

• 49:14Speaker 01

  Alright, gotcha.

• 49:15Speaker 00

  And, oh, but the things I'm showing you, I only had time to go through the first six again. So it's only half that you're actually, it's only the first half of 1968 that we're looking at here.

• 49:27Speaker 00

  I like this piece of artwork. I think it's very moving. That's all. "The mournful fisherman", it's called.

• 49:32Speaker 03

  Scary.

• 49:34Speaker 00

  Anyway, so here's more about the privacy. "Statistical databanks said to be privacy threat. Protecting individual privacy requires more than controlling access to personal dossiers, a lawyer and management consultant told the Boston Bar Association Committee on Automation recently. Aggregate statistics can also provide intelligence about individuals." And they go on to talk, like, it's all here.

• 49:58Speaker 01

  That's crazy.

• 49:58Speaker 00

  Like, it is all here. Everyone, they, people knew about everything that was going to happen, but it happened anyway, might be the way to say it, right? Which is kind of a bit sad, or disheartening, I don't know. Anyway, these are just more salary examples.

• 50:15Speaker 01

  If you're blocked in your career, Cobol?

• 50:18Speaker 00

  Still good advice. Still good advice today. Career Opportunities Beyond Old Limits. It's an acronym, prime.

• 50:26Speaker 01

  Oh, Career Opportunities Beyond Old Limits. That is real good. I didn't even notice that.

• 50:31Speaker 01

  It's still actually good advice today. If you learn Cobol, you can make hundreds of thousands of dollars because they really need people to figure out how to, you know, maintain and move forward these systems.

• 50:40Speaker 00

  At this point in time, no one is sure if there will ever be a time when you, when learning Cobol isn't still a valuable, marketable skill. Like, it should have been that no one knows it today. That's not what happened.

• 50:57Speaker 00

  Okay. "Using Computers to Try to Win Elections." 1968, right?

• 51:05Speaker 01

  Sick.

• 51:05Speaker 00

  "Political Pros Applying Computers to Campaign." "The Democrat National Committee recently replaced a 1401 with a 5-tape 360/30, is working with the equipment in 2.5 shifts or more just about every day and plans to add at least one disc pack. The RNC is renting 25 hours a month on an SBC Mod 40 and less or from another DC Service Bureau Integrated Business Methods." So it's like, yep, they were already doing that too.

• 51:36Speaker 00

  "Lawyer Sees Computers as Aid in Handling Cases." So this was someone going, look, we could have the computers read these legal opinions and then they could predict what the judge was going to do. It's just kind of nuts.

• 51:49Speaker 01

  Now my computer is my lawyer, which is sick.

• 51:56Speaker 00

  I just hold it up. I hold up my phone in the and have it speak for me at.

• 52:01Speaker 02

  Your honor, can you talk to chat GPT voice for me, please?

• 52:05Speaker 03

  Objection, objections.

• 52:07Speaker 00

  Repeat that, repeat that for chat GPT voice.

• 52:10Speaker 01

  It feels like a husk. This is like turning into a husk thing with husk in the in the courtroom.

• 52:16Speaker 00

  This, uh, write in from a reader. It's an op-ed page. Literally, like, literally, it just sounds like an AI stan from today wrote in. They say, with each passing year since the development called ENIAC, man has been increasingly making computers and automation the whipping boy for his own deficiencies. I have been working in this field for over fifteen years and have watched in silence as unemployment, dehumanization, big brother, invasion of privacy, and finally, the very destruction of the fiber of our society have been blamed on my chosen field.

• 52:57Speaker 00

  I no longer can remain silent. It is time we put our critics and their criticisms in perspective. It's not our computers. To error is human. Let me cite some examples. Several years ago, I was associated with a project which attempted to provide computer assistance to medical X-ray interpretation. Most, if not all, of the doctors to which the project was described offered the universal argument against computers, but you cannot automate the years of study and value judgment which must be based on years of experience. Does it sound familiar? A series of X-rays from the case history of a patient who died was presented to trained physicians and the computer. In all cases, the physicians missed the vital interpretation until the malady could no longer have been arrested. The computer sensed an irregularity early enough, so we were advised that corrective action could have started, right?

• 53:41Speaker 00

  He just goes on and on, talking about all these ways that like people have demonized that both the computers are better. It's, it's nuts. Like, this is nineteen sixty-eight.

• 53:51Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 53:52Speaker 00

  It's totally nuts. Here. Sorry, yeah?

• 53:57Speaker 02

  So now I feel like I can't decide if it's a good tweet or not, so I need your approval before I send it. I typed it while you were talking.

• 54:03Speaker 00

  Alright, yeah, yeah.

• 54:04Speaker 02

  Can I, so it said to error is human, you know, because it's talking about how the people make mistakes. But now I kind of feel like we should be saying to error is agentic. Should I tweet that or not? What do you think? Is that?

• 54:17Speaker 00

  I'm the wrong one to ask.

• 54:20Speaker 01

  Is agentic. To fable is divine.

• 54:23Speaker 02

  I'm just gonna say to error is agentic. I'm just gonna tweet that only. There you go. Okay.

• 54:27Speaker 00

  I mean, there's only one way to find out. You just gotta, sometimes you just gotta put it out there to each and see what happens.

• 54:31Speaker 02

  I did, yeah, I did. Okay.

• 54:33Speaker 00

  Somebody asked about flock cameras. I think Prime, you were saying flock cameras?

• 54:38Speaker 01

  Oh, I did, yeah.

• 54:39Speaker 00

  Because you were like saying that other piece, oh, sort of like flock cameras, but it was kind of distantly related. How about actually just flock cameras?

• 54:48Speaker 00

  New York State has a development program underway to use a video camera to capture the image of the rear of motor vehicles passing a vehicle presence detector. This image is processed by a specialized device which locates the license plate and identifies its alpha numeric code. The code is transmitted to the central computer at a remote location for comparison with stolen vehicle and traffic warrant files. A match results in the output of the license number, vehicle type, and an indication of the charge. The police vehicle is monitoring the output device a short distance from the detector and is able to enter the stream of traffic and apprehend the wanted vehicle two or three seconds after the initial detection. J.J. Paley of the New York State Identification and Intelligence System expressed optimism

• 55:31Speaker 00

  as to its potential contribution in the stolen vehicle and wanted traffic violator areas.

• 55:37Speaker 01

  Wow. Do you just have to read nineteen sixty-eight's data whatever? Datement. You can come up with modern day billion dollar companies.

• 55:45Speaker 00

  Just read through this and find something someone isn't doing right now, and there's your next Y combinator pitch, folks.

• 55:53Speaker 02

  Casey, this reminds me, have you ever seen? Oh, go ahead. Go ahead, Casey.

• 55:57Speaker 00

  No, continue.

• 55:58Speaker 02

  Have you ever seen Colossus, the Forbin Project? Have you ever watched this movie? Nineteen seventy.

• 56:04Speaker 00

  It's right, I have not watched it, but that sounds very, I've heard the name certainly.

• 56:08Speaker 02

  They probably wrote and, you know, produced this during this time. We're Casey. Little, I'll give you a homework assignment for once, which is watch this movie. You'll love it. I promise you. I guarantee it.

• 56:20Speaker 00

  Say it one more time, Colossus, the Forbin Project or something?

• 56:23Speaker 02

  Colossus, the Forbin Project. Yep.

• 56:25Speaker 00

  Uh, don't eat in the computer room.

• 56:30Speaker 00

  Alright, you eat these donuts, the crumbs get in the tape.

• 56:34Speaker 01

  I actually tell this to my kids. They're not allowed to eat in the computer room. Yeah, this is good. This is actually really good advice.

• 56:40Speaker 00

  Residual static charges attract crumbs to the tape's surface, and the crumbs cause dents, and dents create permanent errors, guys. So that one, not as applicable to today. Uh, there's some more software as a service. I thought, uh, you guys might like one point five cent, uh, per bit storage, because I was thinking, pretty soon with the AI, uh, data center build out, I'm imagining this is roughly, I'm imagining this ad will be accurate again.

• 57:06Speaker 01

  Honestly, Casey, I do have to say, it seems like it costs a little bit to get memory in that time.

• 57:11Speaker 00

  It costs just a little bit.

• 57:14Speaker 03

  Is this Lockheed Martin?

• 57:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I was just saying Lockheed?

• 57:18Speaker 00

  Yeah. Um, so Lockheed Martin was just Lockheed Aircraft Corporation at that time because they hadn't merged with the Martin Marietta, with Martin Marietta.

• 57:29Speaker 02

  Got it. Interesting.

• 57:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, that, that, that wasn't true in nineteen sixty-eight, yeah.

• 57:33Speaker 02

  They were just making generic, also like, memory system stuff too, like outside of?

• 57:40Speaker 00

  Well, yeah, because. No, it's, you can actually see, you probably can't, but it says Lockheed Electronics Company, a division of Lockheed Aircraft Corporation. So they kind of had like this, you know what I'm saying?

• 57:52Speaker 02

  Yep, yep, yep.

• 57:53Speaker 00

  So, yeah. Uh, this is, well, okay, I, I guess I don't know. I assumed this was another one of their comedy ones. It's called a hexadecimal pronunciation guide. I thought it was really funny. I, I.

• 58:10Speaker 03

  It has to be.

• 58:11Speaker 00

  I just, it has to be. I don't, I don't know. So don't take my word for it. I can't prove it. Uh, because like I said, they don't really, um, they don't really say whether the article is comedy or not. But, but here are the way that they suggest pronouncing the, the digits. A for Ann, B is Bet, C is Chris, D is Dot, E is Ernest, and F is Frost. So when you encounter things, uh.

• 58:38Speaker 01

  Christine, oh my gosh.

• 58:40Speaker 02

  That shit is, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 58:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 58:44Speaker 01

  I am loving that.

• 58:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, me too. Auntie Betty, Christie, Dottie, Ernesty, right, uh, Frosty.

• 58:50Speaker 01

  Jipity. Oh, and it's not on there.

• 58:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, uh, uh, these are just so good.

• 58:55Speaker 01

  Auntie Doty. Oh, that's crazy, because on Silicon Valley, F, uh, F5 was Flevety Five.

• 59:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:02Speaker 03

  Auntie Christine. That's like a, that's, that's.

• 59:05Speaker 00

  It's so, I was like, we should do this. Like, I should try to learn this pronunciation.

• 59:10Speaker 01

  A Frosty Two?

• 59:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:11Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh.

• 59:12Speaker 00

  A Frosty Two is so good.

• 59:15Speaker 02

  It is good. I thought maybe they were gonna be working up to like a hidden message inside where they like pick a hot, a pretty high number, and then it like says a whole sentence, and it's like, you're an idiot for reading this article or something like that.

• 59:27Speaker 00

  I don't, I don't think, it just, it's written very tongue in cheek, so I just, I just assumed it was comedy, but, uh, but I don't. I didn't have time to really read through the entire article to like, see if there's any thing where they literally say it, but I don't think they ever do. They, these, the humor was like wicked dry in that way.

• 59:45Speaker 01

  Can you send me a link to that one? Because I think I'm just gonna make a YouTube video on that one. That was just so funny.

• 59:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, just send me, send me a message, send me a DM so I'll remember. As soon as we're done here, I'll send it to you.

• 59:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Otherwise, it will be forgotten.

• 59:57Speaker 01

  Otherwise, I'm also forgetting your forgot, your forgettings.

• 1:00:01Speaker 00

  So, uh, again, we kind of already went over this. Here's an entire book called Privacy and Freedom by Alan F. Weston that they're reviewing here that's entirely about, like, uh, the, you know, it has an entire section on computer, like what computers are doing to privacy in that era.

• 1:00:17Speaker 03

  Why does it say ten dollars, like, after the heading?

• 1:00:21Speaker 00

  That's the price of the book. The price of the book.

• 1:00:23Speaker 03

  Oh, got it, got it, got it.

• 1:00:24Speaker 00

  Which would have been a hundred dollars. Yeah, this is a review of the book.

• 1:00:27Speaker 01

  Good book. It's a hundred dollar book.

• 1:00:30Speaker 01

  Honestly, its logo does kind of look AI-generated though. If you go back to it, notice that it has like these weird kind of arrows sticking out of things, and then one part doesn't have arrows.

• 1:00:39Speaker 03

  Oh, that's Claude's logo, you're right. It's the butthole.

• 1:00:43Speaker 00

  It's a Claude butthole, yeah.

• 1:00:45Speaker 02

  They stole the logo when they read this and stole the data. That's makes sense.

• 1:00:51Speaker 01

  Claude created its own logo by stealing.

• 1:00:54Speaker 00

  Um, I, I like the idea of asking the, boldly asking the question, how do you gruntle the buyer of memory stacks? Uh, because I've always wondered how you gruntle the buyer of memory stacks.

• 1:01:07Speaker 01

  Can one define gruntle?

• 1:01:09Speaker 00

  Yes, you can, and I, I'm going to use it because it's not what it sounds like. I'm going to use it in inappropriate ways in the future as well.

• 1:01:17Speaker 01

  Oh, I love this definition.

• 1:01:18Speaker 00

  Me too, me too.

• 1:01:19Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh.

• 1:01:21Speaker 02

  Well, because disgruntled, right, is to be upset, to be made upset, right? So gruntled is to be made not upset.

• 1:01:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, is the opposite of disgruntled, yeah.

• 1:01:30Speaker 02

  Right, like the Eagles. They became very gruntled.

• 1:01:34Speaker 00

  Yes. Uh, Communist China.

• 1:01:37Speaker 01

  Post-sex spiral gruntled.

• 1:01:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. Communist China still posing a threat to our computer supremacy. Very important to track. They, they said within five years, they would have, uh, computing technology. That was what this estimate said. They were fifteen years behind currently, and then they would pull to five years behind in the next something. It was, yeah.

• 1:02:02Speaker 01

  Trash.

• 1:02:02Speaker 03

  What did you say?

• 1:02:04Speaker 00

  Sorry, what? What did Trash say? Trash say?

• 1:02:08Speaker 03

  It was a whisper joke. I was just saying, I didn't know China existed in sixty-eight. That's crazy.

• 1:02:16Speaker 02

  That's a good one, Trash.

• 1:02:17Speaker 03

  No one was actually supposed to hear it, but then you started laughing.

• 1:02:23Speaker 00

  So, uh, this one is not funny or really interesting to anyone but probably me. And that is that if you look up, like, on Wikipedia, this is one of those ones where I'm like, ah, man, I'm not doing another one of these talks, but if you look up on Wikipedia what the first ray traced image was, it will tell you that the first ray traced image was, like, published about in April, uh, 1968 by, uh, a guy named, oh, what was his name? I don't remember. Sorry.

• 1:02:59Speaker 00

  Uh, but randomly going through the 1968 datamations, here is three ray traced images in an advertisement for a service that does ray tracing for you.

• 1:03:13Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:03:13Speaker 00

  And this is February 1968. So I guess Odin being noteworthy is not the only thing Wikipedia maybe doesn't quite have correct in there. But I was like, oh, that's, I wonder where, where the actual first ray traced images came from, because they probably aren't the ones cited, uh, in that, in that Wikipedia, but I don't know. So I wanted to go to-

• 1:03:38Speaker 02

  They probably do it for the very first time in an ad for a company that's been doing and selling the services.

• 1:03:43Speaker 00

  Yes, I know. Uh, so I don't know. Uh, it's pretty, it's pretty hard to say, but, you know, made me want to look into it more. And that's it. So that's what we got, which is good, because I think we're basically out of time anyway.

• 1:03:55Speaker 02

  That was awesome.

• 1:03:57Speaker 00

  And that's, that's just the first six months of 1968. There's so much more. It's, it's crazy. And, uh, by the way, if you liked that Cope 45-

• 1:04:09Speaker 01

  And two zigzags?

• 1:04:10Speaker 00

  If you liked the Cope 45, there's a, another ad for Cope later on in datamation, later on in that year, where the Cope logo is huge, so I can try to get that, I could try to grab a screenshot of that one for you. Just this big Cope computer. Um, I'll, I'll go dig that one up later today.

• 1:04:32Speaker 02

  Obviously, we'll have a link to the whole talk.

• 1:04:34Speaker 01

  And so all of this is in service to your, sorry.

• 1:04:36Speaker 02

  I was just, go ahead, Prime. Go ahead. You take it.

• 1:04:38Speaker 01

  Okay, I was just gonna say, in all of this kind of research, this is all the side research. This is how Unbroken got discovered. This is the same process, where you're just doing a lot of side research for the root of the root of all evil is premature optimization.

• 1:04:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, because, uh, you know, like I said, the, to, to me, the interesting part of these history talks is not, like, I don't really want to tell people what to think about the topic, because that's more of like an op-ed kind of a thing. That's like, oh, let me tell you what I think about, you know, optimization or something like that, which is fine, you know, and that's a different kind of article. But when you're doing these history talks, what I kind of want to do is I want to go feel like I kind of know the time period. I want to, as much as possible, like, put my brain back there by reading all of the things that were going on at the time and, and stuff like reading their trade magazines and all this sort of stuff. And then try to give you a feeling for like, this is when this thing was said. Like, this is actually what was going on at the time. This is where these people were in their lives.

• 1:05:39Speaker 00

  This is what they were thinking about. This is how their personal lives were or whatever, right? Just to kind of like, put you back there. And I, to me, it's really, really cool to have that experience. And unfortunately, I only can get a little bit of that across in the talk, right? Like, I, I get some of it across as best I can, but, you know, if I go back and look at the talk, I'm just like, yeah, I, I only got a little fraction. Like, I tried my best, but you can never really give the full impression of it of when you actually go back and like, read all this material, you get such a much more palpable sense of like, oh, okay, like, I see what, what life was like and what they were thinking about, right?

• 1:06:15Speaker 02

  Well, we'll link the full talk in the description, so people can watch all of it in all of its glory, which will be great.

• 1:06:21Speaker 00

  Don't forget to like and subscribe.

• 1:06:22Speaker 02

  Right. I think I watched the first, like, 30 or 45 minutes earlier today, but it's three hours long. So guys, sit down. Get yourself, get yourself a little jar of coffee.

• 1:06:32Speaker 00

  Yeah. Oh, this one's- It's actually only, it's, it's actually only two hours long. There, there's a Q, like, it's like an hour-long Q and A after it or something. So the actual talk is, I think, two hours. Uh, yeah, Ginger Bill, who, of course, is, makes a language called Odin that is not noteworthy, uh, according to Wikipedia.

• 1:06:50Speaker 02

  Unnotable.

• 1:06:51Speaker 00

  I've never, I don't even know who he is. I've never heard of this guy.

• 1:06:54Speaker 01

  Right now, it's not there.

• 1:06:54Speaker 00

  Random guy, I don't know. They had some random guy interview that no one's ever heard of.

• 1:06:59Speaker 02

  Non-legendary program developer.

• 1:07:01Speaker 00

  Completely unlegendary.

• 1:07:03Speaker 02

  Legendary program designer.

• 1:07:04Speaker 00

  Yeah. Uh, also, also, the, the talk was edited and post-produced in a program called Blick, which is a new video editor that was written in Odin. The non-noteworthy language that, that they used to build the program that edited the talk you can watch, right? Uh, so, so, once again, Wikipedia really crushing it there.

• 1:07:35Speaker 00

  There's a reason I never cite Wikipedia once in these talks. It's because it's always a pretty crude approximation from act, for actually going to the, you know, the source material, right? But, anyway.

• 1:07:45Speaker 01

  We, we have a rule where we try not to show many sources, if any sources, from Wikipedia. We always try to find more of the, the original one.

• 1:07:55Speaker 00

  Yeah. Anyway.

• 1:07:58Speaker 00

  Thanks, everyone, for, uh, checking it out. And, uh, yeah.

• 1:08:02Speaker 01

  Well, that makes me excited for just all the side, like, even just the sidebar-ing, because I don't know if, I don't know if you know the Unbroken reference.

• 1:08:08Speaker 00

  Uh, no.

• 1:08:09Speaker 01

  Okay, so the girl who wrote, um, Seabiscuit?

• 1:08:13Speaker 00

  Oh, okay.

• 1:08:14Speaker 01

  While she was doing research for Seabiscuit, she saw, yes, yes, it is. Uh, while she's doing the research, she saw a column that just said, "Man who survived Japanese internment camp comes back and everybody celebrates him." And she just set it aside and then she later went through that. It's just like this, going through the history and reading newspapers, you find all these fun side quests.

• 1:08:34Speaker 00

  Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:08:39Speaker 02

  Prime, uh, chat wants you to watch the whole thing on stream and turn it into an eight-hour reaction.

• 1:08:45Speaker 03

  They said that about the big oops, too.

• 1:08:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, they did.

• 1:08:47Speaker 02

  I know, they're still waiting. They're still waiting.

• 1:08:49Speaker 01

  Uh, I mean, Casey, can I have permission to do all eight-hour stream of it?

• 1:08:54Speaker 00

  I mean, you had my permission for the big oops as well. You have, you have my permission to, to eight, eight-hourify this or 16-hourify it or any hours you want, Prime.

• 1:09:04Speaker 01

  Extra Life is coming up, where we do a charity drive for kids. I could react to the big oops and that. It will take 24 hours for me.

• 1:09:13Speaker 00

  Go right ahead. Go right ahead. I would love it. That would be fantastic.

• 1:09:19Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:09:19Speaker 02

  That's a good idea, Prime.

• 1:09:21Speaker 01

  I can do that. I think, but remember, Google or YouTube does have a 10-hour video limit, so there is gonna be, uh-

• 1:09:28Speaker 00

  It'll be parts, installments. It's gonna be like episodic.

• 1:09:32Speaker 02

  Reacting to the big oops, part one.

• 1:09:39Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:09:40Speaker 01

  Well, hey, I love that. This was awesome. Thank you so much, Casey, for joining us today on the stand-up you made today. A legendary stand-up with your, uh, with your information.

• 1:09:51Speaker 03

  I like his intro. He's like, "We have a special guest today who is on every episode."

• 1:09:56Speaker 02

  That was good. Yeah, actually, Prime and Trash, both of you guys need to watch Colossus, Foreman Project this week. And Chatters, you guys have to watch it, too. What?

• 1:10:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:10:06Speaker 02

  Colossus.

• 1:10:07Speaker 03

  Colossus is an X-Men villain. Is it him?

• 1:10:09Speaker 02

  I know, but it's not that at all. It's not related to that at all.

• 1:10:11Speaker 01

  Isn't Colossus the invincible one in X-Men that they have to like?

• 1:10:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, he had like the purple helmet.

• 1:10:16Speaker 02

  Is 1970 before X-Men existed? I don't know when X-Men existed first initially. I probably just made a lot of people mad.

• 1:10:22Speaker 01

  I think based on the lore, they're in the 60s, if I'm not mistaken. By the way, Kyle Hill does have an excellent video breaking down the Ice X-Men, that if he were to shoot Ice, he would actually explode like TNT and kill everybody around him. Very good breakdown of energy transfer.

• 1:10:36Speaker 02

  I was assigning homework and it's watching a movie. I'm the best teacher. Okay, you guys have to watch a movie for homework. Everyone come ready with their thoughts next week. We'll do a little brief, you know, we'll barking, not discuss this.

• 1:10:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, can you link it?

• 1:10:48Speaker 02

  I'll send you the link to the right one, uh, in Discord. Yeah, yeah.

• 1:10:52Speaker 01

  Also, Ginger Bill has an excellent point. There were technically 22 men before X-Men. There's the A-Men, the B-Men, the C-Men.

• 1:11:00Speaker 03

  I was like, huh?

• 1:11:01Speaker 00

  They're kind of late. They're kind of late.

• 1:11:03Speaker 03

  Oh, that was a C-Man.

• 1:11:08Speaker 02

  Trash, we all were.

• 1:11:09Speaker 01

  You was a C-Man.

• 1:11:10Speaker 03

  That was a C-Man, literally.

• 1:11:14Speaker 00

  That's why I said we all were.

• 1:11:15Speaker 02

  Okay, let's end the episode, please, fast.

• 1:11:19Speaker 01

  Bye, everybody. Bye-bye.