What Makes A Sandwich A Sandwich? (Reheat)

Is a buttered roll a sandwich? What about a hot dog? Is it still brunch if it’s 2pm?

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dan Pashman?

  There's nothing quite like Aruba. The white sand beaches are truly unlike anything you've seen. But what really stands out is the food. Because Aruba's not like other Caribbean islands. French pastries, Spanish paella, Peruvian barbecue, papardelle that has no business being that good that far from Florence. Not to mention the local fair. Aruba's food scene pulls you in with its astonishing variety of cuisines and beyond satisfies you with its unexpected flavors. So plan your escape to culinary delight at aruba.com. Your taste buds will thank you. Start the day strong with Quaker protein products. Quaker makes it easy and delicious to get a good source of protein. No matter what the day has in store, Quaker protein products give you a variety of ways to reach your protein goals.

• 0:45Dan Pashman?

  Oatmeal, granola, bars, and rice snacks in flavors you already love, like maple and brown sugar and blueberries and cream. Quaker protein helps fuel you to start whatever's next. Get your protein with Quaker, available at a store near you.

• 1:02Speaker 01

  Sirius XM Podcasts.

• 1:10Dan Pashman?

  Hey, everyone. Dan here with another reheat for you. And this one might get contentious because the questions we're going to be addressing in this episode have been discussed and debated by the great philosophers down through the ages. Of course, we're going to be talking about what is the true definition of a sandwich? I'll discuss that question with Peter Kim, who you heard here on the show last fall, talking about his ramen cookbook. Back when we talked to him for this episode, he was the founding director of the Museum of Food and Drink. Then later in this episode, more semantic throw downs. I'll be joined by writer and podcaster Helen Zaltman to ponder the meaning of brunch and seltzer. Now, this episode was requested by Kevin in Switzerland.

• 1:49Speaker 02

  Hello. I recently came across your episode on what makes a sandwich a sandwich. I would love to hear that episode again and also hear your take on the craze just over the border here in France of the French tacos. It doesn't have much to do with a taco in Mexico, but it's basically a version of a doner kebab with meat, some sort of cheese sauce, french fries, all wrapped into a flour tortilla and then finished on a panini press. So that squishes the burrito wrap thing into basically a sandwich-like shape. So does that count as sandwiching the ingredients? Anyway, love to hear your thoughts.

• 2:33Dan Pashman?

  All right, Kevin, so I have not had a French taco. I have seen them online, though. For folks who haven't seen it, at a glance, it does look like a panini, sort of a flattened sandwich with some kind of browning grill marks across the top. But the difference here is that it's more like wrapped in a flour tortilla and pressed flat. And I don't think that anything wrapped in a flour tortilla is a sandwich. It's probably delicious because I love flour tortillas and I love anything wrapped in a flour tortilla. So I'm not commenting on its deliciousness. I just think that anything that is totally wrapped 360 degrees, whether it's a burrito or even something like a dumpling, which of course is very different, but like same idea that it is fully encased in some kind of dough, not a sandwich. Probably delicious, not a sandwich. So there you go, Kevin.

• 3:18Dan Pashman?

  Anyway, remember, if there's an older episode of The Sporkful you want us to pull out of the deep freezer, we clearly take requests. Be like Kevin in Switzerland and send me a voice memo or email to [email protected]. Tell me your name, where you're from, what episode you want to hear and why. Thanks so much and enjoy my conversations with Peter Kim and Helen Zaltman.

• 3:40Dan Pashman?

  I'm a lover of words and I think using the right words to describe foods is truly important. For instance, a friend may offer you a sandwich, but is it really a sandwich? You need to know if your friend is using this word correctly before answering yes or no. So this issue is crucial. Today on The Sporkful, I'll talk to Helen Zaltman from the podcasts Answer Me This and The Illusionist. She's from England, which is where they invented English. We'll discuss various food words. Is it still called brunch if you're eating it at 4:00 PM? What's the best way to spell donut? And is sparkling water really even water?

• 4:18Speaker 03

  If you put ice in it, does that mean it's no longer water because you've got two states of matter? Does that mean it's now a colloidal, is it an emulsion because you've got a solid suspended in a liquid? You could lose yourself in a pedantic maelstrom.

• 4:30Dan Pashman?

  That's later in the show. But first, what makes a sandwich a sandwich? We tackled this question recently onstage at South by Southwest. From WNYC, this is The Sporkful. It's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman, and we're coming to you live from South by Southwest in Austin, Texas. My first guest here at South by Southwest is the Executive Director of the Museum of

• 5:05Dan Pashman?

  Food and Drink, or MOFAID as we call it for short. Please welcome Peter Kim.

• 5:16Speaker 04

  Hey, Dan.

• 5:17Dan Pashman?

  Peter, thanks for coming. Of your degrees, one of them is a law degree, right? So you are an attorney?

• 5:22Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 5:23Dan Pashman?

  You take the bar, you pass the bar?

• 5:24Speaker 04

  I did.

• 5:25Dan Pashman?

  Okay, so you're a real lawyer?

• 5:26Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 5:27Dan Pashman?

  All right.

• 5:28Speaker 04

  I'm also a very petty person.

• 5:29Dan Pashman?

  Good. Well, that's great. So I want to talk to you about the definition of a sandwich. This is a controversial topic. It's one that I've covered on The Sporkful before, and I want to get your take. So, do you have a definition that you're able to articulate?

• 5:48Speaker 04

  Well, Dan, I've been spending countless minutes thinking about this very weighty question.

• 5:54Dan Pashman?

  Since you got here eight minutes ago.

• 5:55Speaker 04

  I got here about eight minutes ago. So if somebody, if I, if we were going, if, you know, you're grabbing lunch for me, and I said, "Hey, Dan, could you grab me a sandwich?" And you came back with a burrito. I'd be like, what the heck, man? I asked for a sandwich, not a burrito. If you came back with a burger, similar thing, I would say, I didn't ask for a burger, I asked for a sandwich. But yet, a burger might technically be considered a sandwich.

• 6:18Dan Pashman?

  That's right.

• 6:19Speaker 04

  A burrito might also technically be considered a sandwich. So, you know, I don't think we can just look to what we mean when we use it in sort of common parlance, but we also have to think about technically what is a sandwich. And this really can take you down the rabbit hole, I think.

• 6:34Dan Pashman?

  Let's go, let's jump in with both feet.

• 6:37Speaker 04

  Like, I guess the question is, you know, where is the soul of the sandwich? What makes a sandwich a sandwich? You know, I think we kind of have to return to that question. And so, I guess one way to, the one way to do that is we could take a sandwich that we all agree on as being a sandwich, and start to tweak different components of the sandwich, and see if we still agree that it's still a sandwich. Um, so let's say, let's take the turkey club example, right? Can we agree, what are the, on what the components of a turkey club sandwich are?

• 7:02Dan Pashman?

  Turkey, bacon, three slices of bread.

• 7:04Speaker 04

  Lettuce, tomato.

• 7:06Dan Pashman?

  Lettuce, tomato.

• 7:06Speaker 04

  Mayo.

• 7:07Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 7:07Speaker 04

  Right? Okay, so, now, if we subtract the lettuce and tomato from a turkey club sandwich, still a sandwich, right?

• 7:13Dan Pashman?

  Still a sandwich, yes.

• 7:14Speaker 04

  Okay. Then, you know, if you subtract the middle piece of bread, still a sandwich. If you leave it at just the meat, still a sandwich, right?

• 7:22Dan Pashman?

  Just the meat? With bread on top and bottom?

• 7:24Speaker 04

  Yeah, top and bottom bread, still the meat. What if it were just the mayonnaise between two slices of bread?

• 7:31Dan Pashman?

  Well, that's a great question. I, I would argue that that's a spread and not a filling.

• 7:35Speaker 04

  Right.

• 7:36Dan Pashman?

  But that, this brings me to, you know, the, you know, New York State has addressed this question.

• 7:39Speaker 04

  Oh, interesting. I did not know that.

• 7:40Dan Pashman?

  I have here in my possession, New York State tax bulletin ST-835, issue date April 13th, 2011. Introduction: Sandwiches are generally subject to sales tax. This bulletin explains what is considered a sandwich for sales tax purposes. And, and New York State goes on to include as sandwiches, buttered rolls.

• 8:04Speaker 04

  Oh, interesting.

• 8:06Dan Pashman?

  As well as burritos, wraps, pita sandwiches, hot dogs. I mean, they just want to tax anything they can get their hands on. Clearly, I mean, this is outrageous.

• 8:17Dan Pashman?

  Funnily enough, though, it doesn't say open-faced sandwiches.

• 8:19Speaker 04

  Well, you know what? I have to say, I don't have, share the same level of incredulity as you do.

• 8:24Dan Pashman?

  You think a buttered roll is a sandwich?

• 8:27Speaker 04

  I think it could be. I mean, like, let's look at like, uh, what if you had avocado spread in between, you know, in between two pieces of bread?

• 8:33Dan Pashman?

  If it's a spread, it's a spread. There's a difference between a filling and a spread.

• 8:38Speaker 04

  Right.

• 8:38Dan Pashman?

  I mean, you know, we can't have anarchy here, Peter.

• 8:41Speaker 04

  Oh, no, but I, I think we can have flexibility, though. Think about, think about the cream cheese, cream cheese between, you know, in a bagel. You know, that's actually called a sandwich in a lot of bagel shops.

• 8:52Dan Pashman?

  Well, that's just because they want to New York State force them. That's why.

• 9:00Dan Pashman?

  I'm a strict constructionist on this issue. I believe you must, we must look to the framers' original intent. Look to the Earl of Sandwiches' original intent.

• 9:07Speaker 04

  I'm familiar with your kind.

• 9:10Dan Pashman?

  It's my strict constructionism that has led me to be dubbed the Scalia of sandwiches. And I have a two-part test. And the part one is, you have to be able to pick it up and eat it without utensils and without your hands touching the fillings. Now, if it's, if it's a little messy and the fillings get on your hands a little bit, it may be a poorly made sandwich, but I think that it's, you know, the intent is still, the intent is the key.

• 9:39Speaker 04

  You think that burritos a sandwich?

• 9:41Dan Pashman?

  No. Well, if you're only looking at part one, but this is the second part of the test. The fillings must be sandwiched between two separate, hand-ready food items. In other words, something's got to get sandwiched.

• 9:58Speaker 04

  I actually think that we might need to think about there being two different kinds of sandwiches. One is a sandwich that we understand as being a sandwich, which is like a turkey club, you know, the sort of prototypical sandwich. But then there's a sort of metaphysical umbrella concept of a sandwich, which would include things like burgers and even, gasp, burritos.

• 10:17Dan Pashman?

  When we were emailing about this beforehand, you emailed to me and you said, "I even remember studying the famous burrito sandwich case way back in law school."

• 10:27Speaker 04

  That's right, yeah.

• 10:27Dan Pashman?

  I looked it up based on your email.

• 10:29Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 10:29Dan Pashman?

  I'll help you fill in the details.

• 10:30Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 10:31Dan Pashman?

  Panera leased space in the White City Shopping Center on Route 9 in Shrewsbury, Mass.

• 10:35Speaker 04

  Right.

• 10:36Dan Pashman?

  And as part of their lease, the shopping center said, "We won't open any other sandwich shops in the mall."

• 10:42Speaker 04

  Right.

• 10:43Dan Pashman?

  Then a Qdoba came in selling burritos and quesadillas, and Panera said, "What gives? Burritos and quesadillas are sandwiches."

• 10:52Speaker 04

  Right, right, right.

• 10:53Dan Pashman?

  And do you recall what happened?

• 10:55Speaker 04

  What the judge did in that case is, uh, looked, looked at, you know, what the understanding likely was between the parties on what a sandwich was. And I think the judge found that, uh, probably the burritos were not what they were contemplating, so...

• 11:09Dan Pashman?

  That's right. The ju- the judge found that the term "sandwich" is not ambiguous. Uh, the lease is therefore governed by its, the word "sandwich" is ordinary dictionary meaning, which requires two pieces of bread.

• 11:20Speaker 04

  Right.

• 11:20Dan Pashman?

  Which I disagree with. I mean, do you agree with me that you can have a breadless sandwich?

• 11:25Speaker 04

  Whoa. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. No, I don't know about that. I mean...

• 11:29Dan Pashman?

  If you take like two potato pancakes.

• 11:31Speaker 04

  Right.

• 11:31Dan Pashman?

  And put something between, and put, put, uh, bacon or whatever, smoked salmon between them, isn't that a sandwich?

• 11:39Speaker 04

  Now, I, I, when I would look at, look at that, I would say that's a sandwich-like product. It's an issue of definition for what purpose, right? And so, you know, I think that there are a lot of different levels of sandwich definition. A sandwich, you might even say, of sandwich definition.

• 12:02Dan Pashman?

  Do we have any questions? Is there anybody who has an objection to any of the points that have been made or would like to weigh in on this, one of these issues of sandwichdom?

• 12:09Speaker 05

  I'm Jane, I'm from New York.

• 12:10Dan Pashman?

  Hey, Jane.

• 12:11Speaker 05

  How about a peanut butter sandwich?

• 12:13Dan Pashman?

  Peanut butter sandwich. Is peanut butter a spread or a filling? That's the ultimate question.

• 12:17Speaker 04

  Uh, yeah, but even then, I think spreads can make sandwiches, so...

• 12:21Dan Pashman?

  So you say yes, clearly.

• 12:22Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 12:25Dan Pashman?

  Ooh. As I said, I think that it depends on how it's used. And I think that with peanut butter, if you're spreading it on just a thin spread, then it's just a spread. If you're like glopping on, if, you know, when I make a peanut butter and jelly, sometimes I'm using like three tablespoons of peanut butter.

• 12:40Speaker 04

  So Dan, what you're telling me is that when you take, you know, a spoonful or a knife full of peanut butter and you spread it on once, not a sandwich. Spread it on twice, not a sandwich. Somewhere on that third swipe, like halfway across the bread, it has suddenly become a sandwich.

• 12:57Speaker 04

  Interesting.

• 12:58Dan Pashman?

  It's all about the difference between a spread and fillings.

• 13:01Speaker 04

  Right.

• 13:01Dan Pashman?

  I'll also say if you add jelly, it's definitely a sandwich. Once you have multiple spreads, I think that crosses the line.

• 13:09Speaker 04

  Mayonnaise and mustard. What about Dijonaise? Like what if it's a mayonnaise mustard mix?

• 13:15Dan Pashman?

  I think Dijonaise, I think that if the Dijon and the mayonnaise are mixed before being spread on the bread.

• 13:20Speaker 04

  Right.

• 13:20Dan Pashman?

  Then it's a spread.

• 13:22Speaker 04

  Interesting.

• 13:22Dan Pashman?

  But if they're put on the bread separately, it's a sandwich.

• 13:26Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 13:28Dan Pashman?

  Next question, yes, sir.

• 13:29Speaker 06

  I'm Jeremy, I'm from Austin.

• 13:31Dan Pashman?

  Hey Jeremy.

• 13:31Speaker 06

  Hey. Does a grilled cheese count as a sandwich? Is the cheese substantial enough to count as a filling?

• 13:37Dan Pashman?

  I think cheese is. What do you think?

• 13:39Speaker 06

  I mean, by your definition, I would say probably not. I think so, but it seems more, uh...

• 13:44Speaker 04

  Well, see, like Dan's got this sort of like country club view of sandwiches, where you have to really like meet all these different standards. You've got to get vetted, you know, you have to be...

• 13:53Dan Pashman?

  I'm a strict constructionist. I'm a strict constructionist.

• 13:55Speaker 04

  Are you two sauces? Okay, come on into the sandwich club. Are you two sauces that have been pre-mixed before? Oh, wait, no, no, we don't like your kind here.

• 14:03Dan Pashman?

  Well, meanwhile, I mean...

• 14:04Speaker 04

  Step away, non-sandwich. But I do think there are boundaries here. I mean, I do think, yes, it has to be something that fulfills the function of a sandwich, which is something that you can eat with your hands on the go, you know, if you...

• 14:16Dan Pashman?

  So for you, lasagna, not a sandwich?

• 14:18Speaker 04

  Not a sandwich, no, not a sandwich.

• 14:19Dan Pashman?

  So you have standards after all?

• 14:21Speaker 04

  I do have some standards, I do, I do. Anything, you know, could be thought of as something in between other things.

• 14:26Dan Pashman?

  What's something...

• 14:27Speaker 04

  Are we living? I mean, maybe we are sandwiches. We were all sandwiches, maybe.

• 14:29Dan Pashman?

  No, because like...

• 14:33Speaker 04

  I just had a zen moment, guys. And I realized, you know what? I'm actually gonna stop working on the Museum of Food and Drink right now.

• 14:39Dan Pashman?

  Totally.

• 14:40Speaker 04

  Because I've realized, yeah. No, I found my true calling.

• 14:42Dan Pashman?

  Right. By the way, though, now that I think about it, we're not all sandwiches.

• 14:47Speaker 04

  Right.

• 14:47Dan Pashman?

  Peter, we're all burritos.

• 14:49Speaker 04

  Oh, yes.

• 14:51Dan Pashman?

  Because we're all wrapped. We're completely wrapped. Our skin is a tortilla.

• 14:54Speaker 04

  Right.

• 14:59Speaker 04

  Yeah, I don't know.

• 15:04Speaker 04

  Yeah, dude.

• 15:05Dan Pashman?

  Ponder that, man. Ponder that.

• 15:07Speaker 04

  Dude, we are all burritos, man.

• 15:12Dan Pashman?

  All right, well, Peter Kim, executive director of the Museum of Food and Drink. He thinks he's a sandwich, but I think he's a burrito. Thanks so much, Peter.

• 15:21Speaker 04

  Big hand for Peter Kim.

• 15:32Dan Pashman?

  The Museum of Food and Drink plans to open a brick and mortar museum in New York in 2019. They'll have edible exhibits and a giant cereal gun. Yes, cereal gun. Till then, they're doing pop-up exhibits all over the place and a bunch of other fun stuff. For more info, go to mofad.org. Coming up, language buff Helen Zaltman explains why she'll never order a panini, and I try to convince her that sparkling water isn't water. Stick around.

• 16:11Dan Pashman?

  And now, a delicious word from our sponsors.

• 16:23Dan Pashman?

  There's nothing quite like Aruba. The white sand beaches are truly unlike anything you've seen. But what really stands out is the food. Because Aruba's not like other Caribbean islands. French pastries, Spanish paella, Peruvian barbecue, papardelle that has no business being that good that far from Florence. Not to mention the local fair. Aruba's food scene pulls you in with its astonishing variety of cuisines and beyond satisfies you with its unexpected flavors. So plan your escape to culinary delight at aruba.com. Your taste buds will thank you. Start the day strong with Quaker Protein Products. Quaker makes it easy and delicious to get a good source of protein. No matter what the day has in store, Quaker Protein Products give you a variety of ways to reach your protein goals.

• 17:07Dan Pashman?

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• 17:52Dan Pashman?

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• 18:32Dan Pashman?

  Welcome back to another Sporkful Reheat. I'm Dan Pashman. Want to watch me walking my dog while ranting about some food-related issue that's on my mind? Want to see what I'm cooking? Want to see what I'm eating? The best way to do that is to follow me on Instagram. My kids make occasional appearances. There's a lot of fun to be had, so please follow me on Instagram @thesporkful. Again, that's @thesporkful. Thanks. Now, back to this week's reheat. I was really excited recently when I got an email from Helen Zaltman. She said she was coming to the US from her home in London and she wanted to have brunch. Now Helen hosts two smart, fun podcasts that I really like. One's called Answer Me This, the other is called The Allusionist. That's Allusionist with an A. It's a pun. Get it?

• 19:14Dan Pashman?

  We met up at New York's Square Diner in Tribeca, classic old-school joint. We began with a question that Helen had come so far to ask.

• 19:21Speaker 03

  Firstly, Dan, what is brunch? Is it a question of the foodstuffs being brunch-ish rather than like lunch or like breakfast? Or is it the time when you eat it? Is it specifically, say, mid-morning? What are the rules to make it brunch rather than breakfast or lunch?

• 19:40Dan Pashman?

  Typically, I find that most brunch items on a menu are not actually a fusion of breakfast and lunch foods. They're actually half-breakfast foods, typical breakfast foods, and half-lunch foods.

• 19:53Speaker 03

  So you might have cereal on a roast chicken?

• 19:56Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 19:57Speaker 03

  Is that what you're positing, Dan?

• 19:59Dan Pashman?

  No, what I'm positing is that the left side of the menu will be eggs and French toast and pancakes, and the right side will be sandwiches and burgers and steaks.

• 20:07Speaker 03

  I don't think they belong in brunch, steaks, unless it's accompanied by, yeah, unless it's got an egg on it, I guess.

• 20:13Dan Pashman?

  I feel like, I feel like there's much too much focus on like, this is a breakfast food versus this is a dinner food. Like, I'll eat sushi for breakfast and oatmeal for dinner.

• 20:20Speaker 03

  And then you get dressed and go to bed. Shit madness.

• 20:24Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, but, but-

• 20:25Speaker 03

  No, I agree, because like, cold, cold Chinese food, say, for breakfast, what a magnificent thing.

• 20:31Dan Pashman?

  Great breakfast.

• 20:32Speaker 03

  Yeah. So would you think, would you say technically there are foods that are too lunch to be brunch foods? Or do you think it's just fair game?

• 20:39Dan Pashman?

  I don't think any food is too much one meal to be any other meal.

• 20:42Speaker 03

  Okay. Such an equal opportunist.

• 20:44Dan Pashman?

  Yes.

• 20:45Speaker 03

  I wonder how they draw the distinction, then? And is there like, an earliest or latest time for brunch to be brunch rather than breakfast?

• 20:51Dan Pashman?

  Well, here's one of my big points that I want to get your take on, Helen.

• 20:55Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 20:56Dan Pashman?

  I would argue that, so we get the word breakfast, breakfast.

• 21:01Speaker 03

  We do.

• 21:03Dan Pashman?

  Whatever the first meal of the day for you is, whenever it comes during the day, you are breaking your fast since the previous night.

• 21:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 21:12Dan Pashman?

  So the first meal of the day, technically speaking, is always, should always be called breakfast.

• 21:18Speaker 03

  But what if you haven't been to sleep? Then does the whole...

• 21:21Dan Pashman?

  That's a good question.

• 21:22Speaker 03

  Is this like a before and after midnight thing, like in Gremlins? You're opening up more problems than you're solving with this.

• 21:30Dan Pashman?

  I think for it to be brunch, it has to be a true combination of breakfast and lunch, meaning that it has to be, uh, let's, I will grant you for the sake of linguistic expedience.

• 21:41Speaker 03

  Thanks.

• 21:42Dan Pashman?

  It can be the first meal of the day, but it has to replace both breakfast and lunch.

• 21:46Speaker 03

  Okay, yeah.

• 21:48Dan Pashman?

  If you eat three meals in a day, then you did not have brunch.

• 21:56Dan Pashman?

  So Helen, we did an episode recently on this portfolio about donuts.

• 22:00Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 22:01Dan Pashman?

  And several listeners were disappointed that I did not address the question of the spelling of donuts.

• 22:06Speaker 03

  Were they?

• 22:07Dan Pashman?

  They want to know what's quote-unquote correct, but also just feel like they wanted to hear a debate or a discussion about it.

• 22:12Speaker 03

  Okay. Right, let's give them what they want.

• 22:14Dan Pashman?

  Right. What's your take?

• 22:17Speaker 03

  Um, well, I was surprised actually that the economical spelling, the D-O-N-U-T, is actually pretty old, it's almost as old as doughnut, which, um, come on, bro. It's from the early 19th century, doughnut, as in D-O-U-G-H. But then the, the shorter spelling is only a couple of decades later, so that's been in currency a long time. And I think the economical version is good because it can only really be pronounced that way, whereas OU and GH, they present a lot of potential different pronunciation options.

• 22:47Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, like you could call it a duchnut.

• 22:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, or duffnut.

• 22:50Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 22:50Speaker 03

  Or dougnut.

• 22:51Dan Pashman?

  A dougnut.

• 22:51Speaker 03

  Nightmare.

• 22:52Dan Pashman?

  People named Doug wouldn't appreciate that.

• 22:54Speaker 03

  And also, well, they might, they might, finally some recognition. We just dealt with this on, um, my podcast, Answer Me This, in association with a question about what's the correct spelling of yogurt, or yogurt, as I believe you pronounce it in the United States.

• 23:06Dan Pashman?

  A lot of pronunciations, a lot of options for that.

• 23:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, but it's a Turkish word, so it's difficult to import Turkish into English.

• 23:11Dan Pashman?

  So what did you decide on?

• 23:12Speaker 03

  I'm okay with the H, I'm okay with the H.

• 23:15Dan Pashman?

  Really? If you saw that, you wouldn't think that those people were being pretentious?

• 23:18Speaker 03

  Apparently, I think it's more similar to the Turkish spelling to have the H, but then it would be pronounced differently. It represents Turkish phoneme we don't have, but is how it's spelt in Turkish more similarly to English.

• 23:30Dan Pashman?

  So at a Turkish restaurant, I'm cool with the H.

• 23:32Speaker 03

  They can do what they want. They know more Turkish than me. Yeah.

• 23:35Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 23:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:36Dan Pashman?

  But if I was at like some sort of hipster brunch place,

• 23:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:39Dan Pashman?

  I would be like, ugh, you people.

• 23:43Speaker 03

  What makes you think that, do you think? What's in that H that upsets you so much?

• 23:47Dan Pashman?

  To me, like, it's just sort of, it mostly would come across as an affectation.

• 23:50Speaker 03

  Mm hmm.

• 23:51Dan Pashman?

  You know, um, just trying, an assumption that this is somehow a fancier or more, in air quotes, authentic way to spell the word.

• 23:59Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 24:00Dan Pashman?

  It's trying to claim a history that you don't really have a right to claim because it happens to be trendy.

• 24:06Speaker 03

  All that in just one H?

• 24:07Dan Pashman?

  Yes.

• 24:08Speaker 03

  That's main, because I'm blind to the H. Maybe they just spell it how it's spelt on the container that they bought it in. But what I do get really annoyed about is panini.

• 24:18Dan Pashman?

  Okay.

• 24:18Speaker 03

  You have those here, right? The sandwich, panini sandwich.

• 24:20Dan Pashman?

  Press sandwich, yeah.

• 24:21Speaker 03

  Yeah. And it's not panini itself, it's the fact that in Britain, we imported the word panini and then pluralized it paninis, whereas panini is already a plural word. Why didn't we import the singular word? It drives me crazy. So now I won't eat them. Because I do not want to order one.

• 24:38Dan Pashman?

  Right. So one would be a panino.

• 24:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, one is a panino, but I would feel like a pretentious ass if I went in and said, give me a panino, please. So I can't do it. So they're dead to me. It's fine, because they're not even my top five sandwiches, so.

• 24:50Dan Pashman?

  Really? I actually, I like a good panino.

• 24:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, but would you say panino just to be right?

• 24:57Dan Pashman?

  No.

• 25:01Dan Pashman?

  Coming up, Helen and I talk about sparkling water, and I attempt to convince her that it's not actually water. That's after the break. Stick around.

• 25:16Dan Pashman?

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• 25:58Dan Pashman?

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• 26:42Dan Pashman?

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• 27:22Dan Pashman?

  Welcome back to The Sporkful. I'm Dan Pashman. Let's get back now to my conversation with Helen Zaltman. I want to talk to you about sparkling water.

• 27:30Speaker 03

  Good. I'm fond of it as a drink.

• 27:32Dan Pashman?

  What do you call it?

• 27:34Speaker 03

  I like to call it fizzy water, because I think sparkling is a bit pretentious. But in Britain as well, we don't have the terms that you have, like club soda or seltzer. Seltzer sounds quite medical to me. So what's your issue with it, Dan?

• 27:47Dan Pashman?

  Well, I don't think it's water.

• 27:50Speaker 03

  How?

• 27:51Dan Pashman?

  Because in order to make it, you take water, H2O,

• 27:56Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 27:56Dan Pashman?

  and you add CO2, carbon dioxide.

• 28:00Speaker 03

  In kind of separate bubbles.

• 28:03Dan Pashman?

  Well, but it changes the flavor.

• 28:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, but putting a slice of lemon in it would change the flavor. But you would still consider it water, wouldn't you? Because it's overwhelmingly water.

• 28:12Dan Pashman?

  Yes, but so is tea overwhelmingly water.

• 28:15Speaker 03

  Yes, delicious tea water. And milk, yeah, and human bodies.

• 28:20Dan Pashman?

  Why is tea not flavored water?

• 28:24Speaker 03

  Is it something of whether the experience and the character of the thing is still dominantly water? So like you add a lemon slice, you add carbonation to the water, it still tastes watery. Whereas if you add, say, cordial or something like that, then it takes on a different character. But where's the dividing line for you?

• 28:43Dan Pashman?

  But every liquid is mostly water.

• 28:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 28:47Dan Pashman?

  So I just feel like the only logical place, because it's such a slippery slope.

• 28:54Speaker 03

  Absolutely, because of the water.

• 28:55Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 28:58Dan Pashman?

  The only logical place to draw a line is at H2O.

• 29:01Speaker 03

  Yes, but then the water we drink has got other chemicals in it. It's got fluorine or chlorine in it. City water's got probably other things we don't want to know about.

• 29:10Dan Pashman?

  Those are things that ended up there through natural processes.

• 29:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, natural and unnatural, I think.

• 29:16Dan Pashman?

  Or maybe a natural or unintentional processes. I feel like the intent must be for it to be H2O, for it to be called water.

• 29:25Speaker 03

  Okay, and then what about the water of the oceans that has salts and a whole load of crap in it?

• 29:32Speaker 03

  Are you suggesting the oceans are not made of water, Dan?

• 29:36Dan Pashman?

  That is a good question. I guess, I guess we need to have a second definition for water outside of the realm of food and drink.

• 29:43Speaker 03

  I think you do, but I'm not sure that everyone does.

• 29:46Dan Pashman?

  So what's your take?

• 29:47Speaker 03

  I did not have a problem with this until now. I was just happy with the situation as it was. I think you're getting yourself into potential problems. Like, like you could be saying, if you put ice in it, does that mean it's no longer water because you've got two states of matter? Does that mean it's now a colloidal, is it an emulsion because you've got a solid suspended in a liquid? It's a dangerous path you're walking up. By dangerous, I mean, you could just, you could lose yourself in a pedantic maelstrom if you pursue this to its natural conclusion.

• 30:16Dan Pashman?

  Helen, I think we're already there.

• 30:20Speaker 03

  What are these liquids in front of me? Aren't even liquids at all, or just imaginations?

• 30:25Dan Pashman?

  Is this all a dream?

• 30:26Speaker 03

  I think it might be.

• 30:31Dan Pashman?

  That's Helen Zaltman. She's the host of two great podcasts, Answer Me This and The Illusionist. That's Illusionist with an A. It's distributed by our friends at Radiotopia. In case you're curious, Helen had pancakes with a side of bacon, and actually, I made her order a second side of bacon so I could build her a pork lift. Pork lift is this bacon lattice structure that I invented where you build the bacon lattice and put it underneath the pancake stack to elevate the bottom pancake off the plate. That way, when syrup pools on the plate, the bottom pancake doesn't turn soggy. And I think Helen was pretty impressed. I had to touch a lot of her food in order to build her the pork lift, and she didn't seem disgusted.

• 31:11Dan Pashman?

  So I think it was a win. As for me, I went for my classic brunch standby, inside-out omelet sandwich. I got a ham and cheddar omelet, and you carve out a circle of omelet that's the same shape as the English muffin you get on the side, and then flip it inside out. So the cheese from the inside is now on the outside, top and bottom. This brings the cheese closer to your tongue to accentuate cheesy goodness and also helps fuse the omelet to the English muffin. Then I put some home fries in the middle, and it was really good. By the way, if you enjoyed this episode, I hope you'll check out my book, which has a whole chapter called Language Arts, all about food and language. Covers a lot more ground than we were able to cover in the podcast today.

• 31:53Dan Pashman?

  The book's called Eat More Better: How to Make Every Bite More Delicious. Get it at sporkful.com or wherever books are sold. Please remember to subscribe to this podcast on iTunes, or add it to your list of favorites, or whatever you have to do in your app to make sure you don't miss an episode. Please do that. You can even do it right now. You don't even have to stop listening. All set? Great, thanks. This show is a production of WNYC and The Sporkful. It's produced by Anne Sanney and me. Special thanks to Lita Mollad. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman. And we're Owen. And Anna. From Athens, Georgia. Reminding you two. Eat more. Eat better. And eat more better.

• 32:47Dan Pashman?

  This reheat was produced by. Gianna Palmer. The team that produces The Sporkful today includes me, along with managing producer. Emma Morgenstern. And senior producer. Andres O'Hara. Our engineer is. Jared O'Connell. Music help from Black Label Music. The Sporkful is a production of SiriusXM Podcasts. Our executive producer is Camille Stanley. And hey, did you know you can listen to The Sporkful on the SiriusXM app? Yes, the SiriusXM app, it has all your favorite podcasts, plus over 200 ad-free music channels curated by genre and era, plus live sports coverage. Does your podcasting app have that? And there's interviews with A-list stars and so much more. It's everything you want in a podcast app and music app, all rolled into one. And right now, Sporkful listeners can get three months free of the SiriusXM app by going to siriusxm.com/sporkful.

• 33:32Dan Pashman?

  Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.

• 33:40Speaker 01

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• 34:10Speaker 04

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