What a divorce lawyer wants every woman to know

In today's episode: What is essential to think about before getting married? And just how much should women have in an emergency fund in case of divorce? We spoke to Claire Walczak, an accredited family law specialist and a partner in the Melbourne family & relationship law office at Lander & Rogers, to answer all our questions on divorce. Having practised exclusively in family law since her admission to practice, Claire is passionate about her role as a family lawyer. She takes pride in providing specialist legal advice to her clients and empowering them with the financial independence and emotional security to plan for the next chapter of their lives. You can connect with Claire on LinkedIn or find her on Instagram. Thank you to Babybee and OnePass for making this episode of The Room possible! Babybee makes prams for parents who expect more, shop the Black Friday sale now at Babybee online. OnePass Members get early selected Black Friday products online at Kmart, Target, Bunnings and Priceline, plus free delivery on eligible items or orders. You can sign up to OnePass here. The Room is produced by Dimity Kirkwood, video produced by Scott Walton, and executive-produced by Lucy Hunt. Our social media team consists of Naima Fatema and Divya Simmie, and our partnerships managers are Tabitha Rachmat and Tahnee Malina. We're a new show, and the best way to support us is by clicking ‘follow’ on Apple and Spotify, and we're super grateful to anyone who leaves a five-star review while they're at it. Also! An old-fashioned 'Tell a Friend In Real Life' is equally appreciated. You can follow The Room on Instagram and TikTok. Follow our hosts on Instagram here: Freya, Rafa and Georgia. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Rafa Husain?

  Welcome to The Room, where mothers meet to share their inner world. We're your hosts, I'm Rafa Husain.

• 0:10Freya Bleathman?

  I'm Freya Leithman.

• 0:10Georgia Allison?

  And I'm Georgia Allison.

• 0:12Rafa Husain?

  This week, we're hearing from a family law specialist about how women can prepare themselves in the unfortunate event of a divorce. But before we do that.

• 0:21Georgia Allison?

  This episode of The Room is brought to you by Baby B, prams for parents who expect more.

• 0:25Rafa Husain?

  So it's a meaty topic this week around advice about divorce from a family law specialist. It follows on from our episode earlier in the week where we were hearing about.

• 0:36Georgia Allison?

  The moment you knew that you were headed for divorce. So that's the theme of the week.

• 0:41Rafa Husain?

  Yes, and I'm super excited to unpack this because I feel like it's probably going to be advice that we could all

• 0:47Georgia Allison?

  Take from.

• 0:47Rafa Husain?

  Take from and learn from. But before that, does anyone have any wins or losses from their week?

• 0:52Freya Bleathman?

  Well, my win is you, Rafa.

• 0:55Georgia Allison?

  Yay.

• 0:56Rafa Husain?

  So nice.

• 0:57Freya Bleathman?

  Because I, yesterday, I recorded an episode for Bump with Steph and Laura. And, well, actually, it'll come out the same day as this episode. And I didn't have anything I could do with Goldie. We don't have family nearby or anything like that. And Rafa, very kindly, she was working from home. She was like, just drop her off at mine, go do the recording, come back, like, I'll sort it. And it was just an absolute lifesaver. My husband and I did the most convoluted, complicated pick up and drop off. And then he left the car there and caught the train and blah, blah, blah. But sadly, she didn't get a playdate with Lila because Lila's just asleep.

• 1:35Rafa Husain?

  Lila fell asleep and she does a solid two hour nap during the day. So anyways, I've got some golden time on the mat. And you know when kids see different play toys and stuff like that? She was like, her legs were like shaking because she was just like, kick, kick, kick, kick.

• 1:50Freya Bleathman?

  And I think it was like big kid toys and stuff. And it was so funny, it probably was a blessing in some ways that Lila wasn't there because she did give us some of Lila's odd things. And last time we tried to do that, Lila was like, taking it out of the bag, being like, no, no, like, I still want this.

• 2:05Rafa Husain?

  Her favourite thing to do is now, she knows how to open our laundry cupboard. And we were getting ready this morning, we come out, all of our pillowcases, half of our blankets are just pulled out. And she's like, just standing there in the pile of laundry. I'm like, great, so glad that we all folded that and took it away perfectly. Because this is her new favourite game. Anyway, she would have done that, yes, with the bag of clothes yesterday. So, oh, I'm very pleased that we're able to help.

• 2:27Freya Bleathman?

  Oh, my God.

• 2:28Georgia Allison?

  It's so gorgeous. We were on our whip for the listeners and this sort of like logistical nightmare.

• 2:33Rafa Husain?

  Yes.

• 2:34Georgia Allison?

  Yeah, taking you through to how we plan our episodes. And the logistical nightmare that Freya, you were going to go through with Rue was just saved by the day with my ram.

• 2:46Rafa Husain?

  So happy. It was like, you know, my mum, I live with my mum, so it was a bit of like extra flex. It's a day that Lila's usually at home with the fam as well, and I happen to be around as well. So very happy to help. We need the village, right?

• 2:57Georgia Allison?

  Yes, absolutely.

• 2:58Rafa Husain?

  In whatever way it can. How about you? Any wins or losses?

• 3:01Georgia Allison?

  Yeah, win for me, really, just specifically to me. I have, I am entering my sewing era.

• 3:07Rafa Husain?

  Yes.

• 3:08Georgia Allison?

  Yes, I have, yes, I've taken out the sewing machine. I'm not, hey, I'm not the greatest sewer or anything, but I am just loving doing little projects. By the time this episode comes out, I will have gifted my nephew, my gorgeous nephew will have turned one. And I have made him this week a like little crown with like, yeah, which has like a one for his birthday. It's in felt. I've learnt how to do a blanket stitch, which, you know, for the sewing listeners, you hear me?

• 3:36Rafa Husain?

  Yeah.

• 3:37Georgia Allison?

  And I'm just loving it. Like, it's just little projects just for myself. And I just feel like it follows on to what I sort of shared on Tuesday's episode, that I have a bit more capacity to do things for myself now that my kids are a little bit older. And this is just one thing that I have taken up. And I don't know, it's just very mindful, I'm off my phone.

• 3:57Freya Bleathman?

  Well, because you can't be on your phone, you need your hands.

• 3:59Georgia Allison?

  I need your hands.

• 4:00Freya Bleathman?

  I need a hobby like that.

• 4:01Rafa Husain?

  Those tactile like hobbies are so good.

• 4:04Georgia Allison?

  And it's just like using a different part of my brain, which I'm also loving.

• 4:08Rafa Husain?

  How do we put an order in for one of those fringe bags?

• 4:10Georgia Allison?

  Yes, I know, I'm getting, I just went to the op shop.

• 4:12Freya Bleathman?

  That was another thing you made.

• 4:13Georgia Allison?

  Yes, I made something on my Instagram, go check it out. I made fringe bags for my best friend's wedding, made it all for the bridesmaids and one for her. And it was so much fun.

• 4:24Rafa Husain?

  I think you need to put an order button up because I'm being fully serious that I would like one for Christmas.

• 4:29Georgia Allison?

  Let's take this offline. Absolutely, I've got this beautiful black fabric that I'm going to do because I feel like a black bag, you always need a black bag.

• 4:35Rafa Husain?

  Yeah, I love it. So good, please.

• 4:38Freya Bleathman?

  What about you, Rafa? Win or loss?

• 4:40Rafa Husain?

  Oh, the loss from gastro that I mentioned on episodes.

• 4:42Georgia Allison?

  I thought you said you weren't going to do any more poo toys.

• 4:45Rafa Husain?

  And then here I am, I'm rounding out the final week. But if you didn't listen to Tuesday, please listen to it. Anyways, I have a theme over the last couple of weeks where I've been talking about bowel movements of some way, shape or form between. Anyways, that was a loss. And I would just say, like, getting whipped around by gastro, gastro obviously itself for the two days knocked me out. But it's the depletion afterwards that I've like, I've not been set foot in the gym in eight days. I've barely been eating, it was so dramatic. I'm like eating that banana, like toast, the BRAT diet or whatever it is.

• 5:16Freya Bleathman?

  Yeah, I'm very familiar.

• 5:18Rafa Husain?

  This is my first coffee in like eight days, so I think I'm going to be back on. But yeah, anyways.

• 5:23Freya Bleathman?

  So we are super excited today because we actually have some voice notes from Claire Walczak. Claire is an accredited family law specialist and a partner in the Melbourne Family and Relationship Law Office at Lander and Rogers. And she is going to give us all of her expert advice and insight into all things divorce.

• 5:44Rafa Husain?

  This is our first expert chiming in as well. And we do not know what she said. So this is going to be a bit of a live reaction to some of her answers to some questions.

• 5:55Freya Bleathman?

  So the first question we asked her is, is there anything that the marriages of those who get divorced have in common?

• 6:02Speaker 03

  In terms of the statistics, the latest ABS data tells us that couples who divorce typically separate after about nine and a half years of marriage. And the median age divorce is around 47 for men and 44 for women. So these are often established relationships where lives, finances and families have become quite intertwined. One of the biggest warning signs I see is avoidance around money.

• 6:37Speaker 03

  Often, one person has traditionally managed the family finances and the other person doesn't have a complete understanding of what they own, what they owe, how their investments are structured, or even what the household costs to run. That can become incredibly stressful when a relationship breaks down. Because suddenly that person is being asked to make significant financial decisions about a property settlement without having had much exposure to the finances during the relationship. So one question I encourage people to ask themselves is, do I actually understand our financial position?

• 7:19Speaker 03

  If the answer is no, have the conversation, sit down together or if appropriate, involve your accountant or financial advisor so both people understand the financial picture. The second issue that I come across is problematic spending. So that could be in terms of gambling, drugs, alcohol or other significant expenditure. And that can place enormous pressure on a relationship.

• 7:49Speaker 03

  And there's an important distinction between one person managing the finances and one person controlling them. If someone is restricting their partner's access to money, monitoring everything they spend or preventing them from having financial independence, then that can move into financial abuse or family violence territory.

• 8:14Speaker 03

  But there are so many other reasons that relationships come to an end. Sometimes people have simply grown apart. Sometimes they realise they have very different parenting styles or values. And sadly, we also see many relationships where family violence has been a significant factor in the breakdown.

• 8:33Georgia Allison?

  Wow, thank you, Claire. What a beautiful voice. I should have heard that too.

• 8:36Rafa Husain?

  Yeah, I was like, playing her all day.

• 8:40Georgia Allison?

  I wish you were in the room. I, well, she shared so much just then. Like, I was just trying to grapple with a few of the points that she raised. And obviously, the big ticket item, but I realised that it's a lot later in life than I thought. Um, like, it, it seems as though, you know, the age of women, it's, I think she said forty-four.

• 8:59Rafa Husain?

  Yeah.

• 9:00Georgia Allison?

  Um, a bit older for men at forty-seven. So a time when your lives are very much intertwined, kids are involved, most likely a mortgage. Um, cause she touches on the financial, um, pressure and understanding or the management of money being a huge factor of, uh. Like, what leads people to divorce or why people are disputing the divorce in a way, or like fighting over money, I suppose.

• 9:25Freya Bleathman?

  I wonder if it's a symptom of an unhealthy relationship, cause it sounds like sometimes it's the cause of divorce. Or also, it's the big issue that comes up.

• 9:34Rafa Husain?

  A lot, time and time again.

• 9:35Freya Bleathman?

  Divorce, yeah. First of all, as a data girl, when she started off with the ABS, I was like, nah. Like, she's a listener, she knows about the census. But I, I did, I was a bit, I don't know, it always makes me feel a little bit destabilised. When, I think, you always just hope you're sort of out of the woods.

• 9:56Rafa Husain?

  Yeah, and you're like nine years.

• 9:58Freya Bleathman?

  Yeah, I'm like, I'm not there yet.

• 10:01Georgia Allison?

  No.

• 10:02Freya Bleathman?

  No one's safe.

• 10:03Rafa Husain?

  No.

• 10:03Freya Bleathman?

  Yeah.

• 10:03Rafa Husain?

  Yeah. What, were you surprised by what she said in terms of factors contributing to divorce?

• 10:08Freya Bleathman?

  Uh, I wasn't surprised. A lot of it sounded like quite insidious stuff.

• 10:14Georgia Allison?

  Mm-hmm.

• 10:14Freya Bleathman?

  I wasn't sure whether it would be something happened, someone cheated or something like that.

• 10:19Georgia Allison?

  I was surprised she didn't mention cheating, cause I feel like a lot of the examples I have in my life that led to divorce, like, the big thing that happened was cheating.

• 10:26Freya Bleathman?

  Hmm, true, yeah, yeah.

• 10:28Rafa Husain?

  I sort of, I wasn't surprised at all by what she said, cause I, I just, I feel like maybe I've read about it or heard about it, that my, money.

• 10:35Georgia Allison?

  Hmm.

• 10:36Rafa Husain?

  And money stories and finances are often one of the contributing factors, often related to a series of other things. So I, um.

• 10:46Rafa Husain?

  Another fellow, fellow podcaster, hardly, Mel Robbins, who I love.

• 10:51Freya Bleathman?

  Bit like a Hamish Blake.

• 10:52Georgia Allison?

  I know, that was like me comparing myself to Hamish Blake on the socials.

• 10:56Rafa Husain?

  Yeah, when I was doing a bit of research for this, she had a guy called James Sexton, who's also the leading number one divorce lawyer in New York on her show recently. And he sort of talked about, you know, a few tips. And he said that dopamine-related, um, factors. So it's cheating, gambling and money.

• 11:16Georgia Allison?

  Yeah.

• 11:16Rafa Husain?

  All kind of are like, cause stem from similar addictive areas.

• 11:20Freya Bleathman?

  And maybe impulse control.

• 11:22Rafa Husain?

  Impulse control and they're huge destabilisers for marriage. So I think I had that in my head and then her clarifying that. That is also the case in Australia is interesting. They're kind of global, global factors.

• 11:34Georgia Allison?

  I think the other big thing for me is, um, which made me a little bit unsettled, was that, um, a lot of the examples that lead to divorce is where one person in the marriage has been the one who is known about their financial position, has maybe controlled the finances, is understanding the investments. And so therefore, when you get to the divorce part of it, it just gets messy. Because maybe one person hasn't the same sort of financial literacy than the other. And then there's this power play there, um, that comes into it. Which is just, that's just sad. And I feel like for women, it's just another example of how important it is to have a understanding about your financial position and have an interest into it. Because it can put you up and set you up.

• 12:18Georgia Allison?

  Um, if, you know, you never know where, what, what started out as a very happy marriage, where it would lead to.

• 12:25Freya Bleathman?

  I think we actually did ask some more specific questions about finances of Claire. Should we quickly hear from the sponsor of today's episode? And then we can hear her answer.

• 12:36Georgia Allison?

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• 13:09Freya Bleathman?

  I think I do, do you have, you've got a different one. I've got the Juno as well.

• 13:12Georgia Allison?

  You have the Juno?

• 13:13Rafa Husain?

  The best.

• 13:14Georgia Allison?

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• 13:40Freya Bleathman?

  So the next question we asked of Claire was, should women have an emergency fund in case of divorce? And how much exactly?

• 13:48Georgia Allison?

  I want to hear if you guys have any emergency funds before we hear from Claire, cause I'm super curious about this and I have some follow-up questions.

• 13:57Freya Bleathman?

  Well, I did have an emergency fund pre-mat leave and that's been very much dwindled to nothing.

• 14:05Rafa Husain?

  Yeah.

• 14:05Freya Bleathman?

  I think I had about eight thousand dollars or something. Um, mat leave plus having my dogs are thirteen and seventeen. So they're expensive and a couple of vet trips can eat into that pretty quickly. I don't think it was necessarily in case of divorce. But I've always felt very strongly about having an emergency fund. I mean, I don't know, I'm not a religious person. But one of my, I don't know, it's just a phrase that I come back to a lot, which is there but for the grace of God go I. Have you guys heard that before? Basically, I think about it all the time and at work and things like that, where someone's in a horrible situation. I think our gut. I think it's quite human instinct to be like, okay, that could never happen to me because of X, Y, Z.

• 14:49Freya Bleathman?

  I would never let my child get into that situation where that accident happened, or I wouldn't, I would never marry someone that would do that. But I just think what I've seen, just in my day-to-day life and also through work, is just, it can happen to any of us.

• 15:04Georgia Allison?

  Absolutely.

• 15:04Freya Bleathman?

  All those things. It happened to my parents. My parents got divorced. Maybe that also fed into it. I just think that, I don't, I hope we don't get divorced. I don't think we'll get divorced, but we've only been married for a year and a half, so we've still got eight years until we hit the peak time.

• 15:19Georgia Allison?

  Yeah.

• 15:19Freya Bleathman?

  Who knows what can happen? I'm one person in the relationship, there's a whole other person.

• 15:23Rafa Husain?

  Yeah.

• 15:23Georgia Allison?

  And is this a money that, I mean, besides the fact that it's dwindled, whatever, um, is that something that your partner, Rue, didn't have access to? Like, it was just in your account?

• 15:33Freya Bleathman?

  We've mostly got separate accounts. I think we touched on this in another episode.

• 15:36Rafa Husain?

  Set up the whole.

• 15:37Freya Bleathman?

  Yeah.

• 15:38Rafa Husain?

  Yeah.

• 15:38Georgia Allison?

  Okay. I just don't have any money that I would be able to access, that Matt didn't have access to.

• 15:46Georgia Allison?

  I don't, I mean, yeah, shout out to Matt, we're not getting divorced.

• 15:49Rafa Husain?

  Yeah.

• 15:49Georgia Allison?

  But I, yeah, I don't have any emergency funds. I have access to money, but it would be the same money that Matt would have access to as well. We have very joint funds.

• 15:59Rafa Husain?

  That's a very common, I would say that's probably the more, more common. I think probably, um, it would be uncommon to have, you know, emergency funds. Obviously, it requires diligence and discipline over the course of time. I do have a separate savings fund and a separate sort of area that my salary gets paid out to, which is kind of rainy day funds. Not in the case of divorce, but just generally, um, speaking for other, you know, things that pop up or to your point around dogs and like family stuff. So, but it does sit in my account.

• 16:33Georgia Allison?

  Your account.

• 16:34Rafa Husain?

  Yeah.

• 16:34Georgia Allison?

  Yeah, interesting. I felt like, should I have one? I was like, when I heard this, that we're gonna ask this, I'm like, let's hear what she says.

• 16:41Rafa Husain?

  Yeah.

• 16:42Georgia Allison?

  But I'm like, Claire can tell you.

• 16:43Rafa Husain?

  Yeah.

• 16:44Georgia Allison?

  Need to start saving.

• 16:45Speaker 03

  Yes, I think women and really everyone should have some financial independence and access to an emergency fund. One of the very first questions that I ask a client at an initial conference is, do you have immediate access to money to meet your living expenses? Unfortunately, we sometimes see people come to us after separation, having suddenly been cut off from joint bank accounts or credit cards. And that can leave them needing money for very basic things, such as housing, groceries and expenses for the children, as well as obtaining legal advice. So how much exactly do they need?

• 17:29Speaker 03

  Well, there's really no magic number. The reality is that accessing joint funds after separation can take time, particularly if lawyers or the court need to become involved. So the greater the financial buffer you have, the better. It gives you some independence and breathing space while everything else is being worked through.

• 17:51Georgia Allison?

  Okay, that answers that.

• 17:54Freya Bleathman?

  Start saving, girls. People, like cutting the other person off from the joint account is evil.

• 18:01Georgia Allison?

  Yeah.

• 18:01Freya Bleathman?

  And if they're, if they're ending up in a position where they can't afford things for themselves and their children.

• 18:07Georgia Allison?

  It's pretty drastic.

• 18:08Freya Bleathman?

  Abusive.

• 18:09Georgia Allison?

  Yeah.

• 18:09Freya Bleathman?

  That I hate, I could not hate that more.

• 18:12Rafa Husain?

  Yeah, and I think this is a hard, this is a big topic, like, and I've just realised in hindsight, like, we're, we're hearing from a specialist in this space that sees people in their worst kind of situation.

• 18:24Georgia Allison?

  I'm glad you said that.

• 18:25Rafa Husain?

  And I think it's just bringing to light the reality of the choice of who you partner with. Being an incredibly important decision on all aspects of your life and so, and coming back to some previous episodes, safety. Cause if you're cutting off someone that you married and like the choice of that partner being the breadwinner and they're now not able to eat. They've got nowhere to live, like, that's full on.

• 18:48Georgia Allison?

  Hmm.

• 18:49Rafa Husain?

  Yeah.

• 18:50Freya Bleathman?

  But can you ever really know what someone's going to be like when you divorce them or break up with them? I'm sure people have been through that situation and seen a very different side to someone once things go south.

• 19:04Rafa Husain?

  A hundred percent, but I do think like, you know, just quickly touching on, I truly think you know who you're marrying at a version of them. And the data is saying that it's about six years of unhappiness before they're making this choice. Either through the, whoever in, in initiates it. I think the writing's on the wall and you do hear these stories that like, maybe we'll get married and he will change or they will change. It's like, no, everything is going to be harder after kids and all that sort of stuff. So bridging the gap of trying to think someone's going to change, I think you, you hear a lot of these stories. So I, I, I think, I do think that you will, you tend to know a sense of the person

• 19:44Rafa Husain?

  um, in, in the lead up to the divorce and then you're probably gonna get a worse version of what you've seen.

• 19:51Georgia Allison?

  Hmm. I don't know if I agree with that, purely because I feel like I've had an example set to me in my life by someone who very close to me. Got married, beautiful day, had a child, and then her husband pretty much woke up one day and said, I'd no longer wanna be married to you. It was, she was completely blindsided. And so I don't, and, and as it turned out, they've divorced now. Um, and I just don't think you, you can, you can completely know someone until you put it in, in front of you, a circumstance. Like, I think you, like, to your point, um, Freya. You get the worst version of somebody in this situation, in a, in a courtroom. And this, I mean, um, loving this advice and it's, yeah, opening up a lot of our eyes here.

• 20:34Georgia Allison?

  But this is an extreme example, like Claire is a partner in a law, as a, as a family law specialist in Melbourne, Landers and Rogers. She is seeing two people at their very worst here. But I think if there are single people, single mothers especially, listening to this and thinking to themselves, I thought I was marrying the love of my life and I've now divorced.

• 20:56Rafa Husain?

  Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's true. I think they are marrying the love of their life, but I'm saying like, at that time. You're like, pre the actual divorce in the, uh, in the marriage.

• 21:09Georgia Allison?

  Yeah.

• 21:09Rafa Husain?

  Was everything as rosy, where she completely blindsided when the divorce showed up. Or like he left her. I, I, I don't know. She may not have felt like that on her wedding day, and I think you do choose these people in the hope that you're going to have. Like, cause marriage is romance, like, at, at the end of the day, it's like you meet this person, you're, you choose this person, you say, I do. And you're like, you're, you're not going into it being like, I hope it's doom and gloom. You're hoping that it's going to be happily ever after. But I think of the reality, maybe through pressures of marriage behaviours that you start seeing, it just doesn't end that way.

• 21:43Georgia Allison?

  Yeah.

• 21:44Freya Bleathman?

  So what you're saying is maybe not necessarily going into the relationship, you know what that could be like in divorce.

• 21:51Rafa Husain?

  I think you're choosing, yeah.

• 21:52Freya Bleathman?

  Hints as you're getting closer to the breakdown.

• 21:55Rafa Husain?

  And I know a lot of people that have tiny little glimmers of someone's personality in the lead up to the wedding and still go ahead with the wedding. And they have been feeling some sort of way in the engagement or the process. And it's like, I, and then the friends end up divorcing. And one example that I'll bring up is, I was like, your partner doesn't know the real you. You're hiding certain things about what you do, how you spend your money, how you go out. What you get up to on the weekends because they have such strict protocols or like, uh,

• 22:30Georgia Allison?

  Expectations.

• 22:31Rafa Husain?

  Expectations of how this particular wife should show up in society. And I was like, if you can't be your true self, and this probably comes back to like that friendship base sometimes being beneficial in a marriage. It's like, I could do anything in front of my husband and he would not judge, like, you know, and we really, really. I think that's a rare thing sometimes in a marriage, which it shouldn't be.

• 22:54Georgia Allison?

  Wow, that's, that's very interesting. Let's move on and hear from Claire about what she says to the question, do women or men initiate divorces more commonly?

• 23:02Speaker 03

  From my experience in practice, it is pretty equal. And I have now checked the latest two thousand and twenty five Australian Bureau of Statistics divorce data, which supports this and shows that around fifty percent of divorce applications were joint applications. Just over twenty five percent were made solely by a female applicant. And twenty four percent were made solely by a male applicant. So these figures tell us who formally applied for divorce. However, not who initiated the separation or ended the relationship.

• 23:40Speaker 03

  Now, Australia is a no fault jurisdiction when it comes to separation and divorce. So from a legal perspective, who ended the relationship isn't particularly relevant. But from a social and behavioural perspective, it's actually a really interesting question. And it makes me think it's something we should start capturing as part of our initial client intake. Because over time, we could build some fascinating insights into who is initiating separation and why.

• 24:14Georgia Allison?

  I'm obsessed with this woman.

• 24:16Rafa Husain?

  Me too. Claire needs to join the pod, I think.

• 24:18Georgia Allison?

  Also, she, I feel like she's just entered into what we should be asking in the next census. Because I, when she started talking about who initiates divorce, that's just the filing of the papers in, in legal sense to the courts. I wanna know who initiates the separation because I had it, I had like a note in my notes here. I thought it would be women for some reason. I just had this intuition of that it would be the women who get fed up. And maybe that's just following on from what we discussed on Tuesday. There's just like a multitude of little situations where the woman is feeling, you know, maybe underappreciated, not considered, does all the tasks at home, the mental load has just gotten to the point where.

• 24:59Rafa Husain?

  Add submission for the divorce papers to the mental load and she's probably getting it done.

• 25:04Freya Bleathman?

  She's like, I'm just gonna delegate this one thing to you.

• 25:06Georgia Allison?

  One thing to you, can you please?

• 25:08Rafa Husain?

  Skewed the statistics.

• 25:10Freya Bleathman?

  It's so, it's interesting. I similarly thought it was maybe slightly more women, which I guess with the filing it was, but slightly more women initiating it on a social level. But I wondered, I feel like, I wonder if it's shifting. In my mind, I feel like maybe back in the day, when in hetero relationships, the man might have had more power and more money.

• 25:36Freya Bleathman?

  I'm just making assumptions and maybe more, uh, could fare better in a divorce. I wonder like whether it was more common then, whereas now I do think culturally things are changing somewhat. And maybe women are expecting better and women maybe are more likely to be working and potentially have more financial independence. I don't know. Whether it's shifting a little bit.

• 26:01Georgia Allison?

  Well, historically, men have been the holder of all property, like they didn't, like women didn't have access to money. So it was going to the man anyway. So historically trapped in a marriage because they weren't gonna get anything out of the divorce anyway.

• 26:13Rafa Husain?

  Yeah.

• 26:14Freya Bleathman?

  They'd be left destitute.

• 26:15Georgia Allison?

  Mm hmm.

• 26:16Freya Bleathman?

  And obviously that still happens now, I'm sure.

• 26:19Rafa Husain?

  Just about to say, I was like, I am thinking about any listeners who are maybe going, shit, I should know more.

• 26:28Georgia Allison?

  Yeah.

• 26:29Rafa Husain?

  And, and maybe not feeling like they can ask that question of the partner. And that feels sad, you know, but I hope, you know, it is also giving impetus to hearing from an expert about what, what the reality could be like and some small steps that you can make to protect yourself.

• 26:48Freya Bleathman?

  Yeah, I guess we're kind of assuming that maybe the people are going, oh, what actually, oh, now we're getting divorced. And I don't realise that I don't know anything. Maybe they do know that they don't know it, but they can't actually talk to their partner about it. That could be potentially dangerous or.

• 27:04Rafa Husain?

  Exactly.

• 27:05Freya Bleathman?

  You know, they're maybe trying to placate them and not wanting to cause any.

• 27:09Rafa Husain?

  I agree. I think that's my gut feel as well, interestingly.

• 27:12Freya Bleathman?

  Interesting.

• 27:12Georgia Allison?

  Right, let's move on. But before we do so, let's hear from today's sponsor. If there's one skill you pick up fast as a parent, it's online shopping, usually at three AM with a baby or two babies on your shoulders.

• 27:24Freya Bleathman?

  Or three.

• 27:24Rafa Husain?

  Or three.

• 27:24Georgia Allison?

  Or three. No, one's normally in my lap.

• 27:28Georgia Allison?

  And with Black Friday coming up, it's the perfect time to get sorted for Christmas. So if you're planning to shop, joining One Pass is a bit of a no brainer. I have just joined. One Pass members get early selected Black Friday products online at Kmart, Target, Bunnings and Priceline, plus free delivery on eligible items on orders. And if you join on a forty dollar annual membership, you'll unlock a twenty dollar One Pass reward to spend at your favourite retailer. Join today at onepass.com.au. Tees and seas and exclusions apply. Offer ends December the second, twenty twenty six. No free trial. See onepass.com.au for retailer event details. Thank you so much to One Pass for making this episode of The Room possible. Okay, moving on, I wanna know what Claire says about how much the average divorce costs.

• 28:14Speaker 03

  There really isn't an average cost of separation in Australia because every family is just so different.

• 28:22Speaker 03

  However, if a couple reaches agreement relatively quickly, the legal costs can be quite modest. But if you're talking about a disputed property or parenting matter that goes all the way to a final hearing, each person can easily spend well over a hundred thousand dollars. It, it becomes very, very expensive.

• 28:44Speaker 03

  In my experience, the biggest determinant of cost is the level of conflict, the complexity of the issues and how long it takes the parties to reach resolution.

• 28:55Rafa Husain?

  Yeah, I'm not surprised by that.

• 28:56Georgia Allison?

  That is the extreme example though, but I wasn't surprised either, I must say.

• 29:01Freya Bleathman?

  I, I felt sick hearing that bigger. What the fuck?

• 29:06Georgia Allison?

  Yeah, well, a lot of things depend on.

• 29:08Freya Bleathman?

  Well, over a hundred thousand.

• 29:09Georgia Allison?

  Well, what if you've got like.

• 29:10Rafa Husain?

  Separation of assets.

• 29:11Georgia Allison?

  Yeah, but also just a, like a.

• 29:13Freya Bleathman?

  Custody stuff.

• 29:14Georgia Allison?

  No, I'm more talking about your lawyer. Like if you've got a very senior lawyer, their fees per day, if you're taking this contested matter to a court, can be tens of thousands, not just thousands.

• 29:24Freya Bleathman?

  Well, what causes divorces to cost? I assumed lawyer cost.

• 29:28Georgia Allison?

  Yes.

• 29:29Freya Bleathman?

  I kind of assumed that was pretty much all of it, that there's other things you have to pay for.

• 29:33Rafa Husain?

  Over property, like if you live in a mortgage, you're selling, who's living? Who, like, there's, there's a, like, car, all your assets shares.

• 29:44Freya Bleathman?

  So is that like your net worth reduces by?

• 29:48Rafa Husain?

  No, they're battling over where everything will go.

• 29:51Freya Bleathman?

  And so the money's being eaten up with law, lawyer costs.

• 29:54Georgia Allison?

  Correct.

• 29:55Freya Bleathman?

  So are they spending upwards of a hundred thousand sometimes on a law, on lawyers?

• 29:59Georgia Allison?

  Yes.

• 29:59Rafa Husain?

  Yeah.

• 30:00Freya Bleathman?

  Fucking hell.

• 30:00Georgia Allison?

  Yes, yes.

• 30:02Freya Bleathman?

  Oh my god.

• 30:02Georgia Allison?

  I, I think if you've got a dispute between two people who have a great deal of assets and they're not, ha, they're not being able to negotiate amicably together, then the lawyers, if that takes time, you know, you can eat up a, a lot of your lawyer's costs on reading emails, sending, sending your lawyer to double check on, on the correspondence that going between two lawyers. Like the, the lawyer fees associated with the longevity of a complex but disputed matter is where a lot of those costs would be eaten up.

• 30:33Freya Bleathman?

  Gee.

• 30:34Rafa Husain?

  I think if it wasn't so expensive, you would see higher rates of divorce. Because it is so expensive and a lot of feedback that I've either read about or heard from personal stories, look, in, in my culture, like Bangladeshi culture or South Asian cultures, divorce is very frowned upon because it's a failure

• 30:55Rafa Husain?

  as a status in society. Oh, did you hear about so and so? They couldn't make it work, like blah, blah, blah. Does, does it mean that women or men are staying in unhappy marriages? Yeah, it does, because there's this whole like sacrifice to the nth degree for your family and, you know, that whole big sort of stuff. But then you hear facts like this and you're like, no wonder as well. Because it is an arduous process. It kind of goes back to like, if they make these things hard because they want to preserve the idea and union of marriage. I think society like wants and likes the idea of marriage, so it's, it's really expensive. It's a difficult process.

• 31:31Georgia Allison?

  There are other avenues where you can separate more amicably in like an alternative dispute resolution scenario, such as mediators, conciliators, they can sort of.

• 31:40Freya Bleathman?

  Can get divorced without a lawyer?

• 31:42Georgia Allison?

  Yeah, you can go through a lawyer and if it's amicable and you can just say like, we're no longer going to be together. We've got a house, we've got cars, we've got the kids, we wanna split it fifty fifty or sixty forty. We've also got our superannuation that we wanna split. It could be, I mean,

• 31:57Rafa Husain?

  more straightforward than usual.

• 31:59Georgia Allison?

  Quote unquote straightforward.

• 32:00Rafa Husain?

  Well, they said fifty percent of the submissions are joint. So in that case, maybe, you know, fifty percent are relatively seamless.

• 32:07Georgia Allison?

  I don't love those stats though, because fifty percent, you're, you're jointly deciding together to

• 32:14Georgia Allison?

  apply for a divorce. I wanna know the stats with what, um, Claire details. She wants to know the stats about who initiates the separation. I think that, that aside, who initiates the divorce is really just a piece of paper.

• 32:28Freya Bleathman?

  Hmm, I'd love to know, speaking of it just being a piece of paper, whether the costs change at all if you've got a prenup? Because I, I looked into prenups well before we got married, just as, it was always something I was planning on doing. And in the end I didn't, because apparently to get an actual prenup that's worth the paper it's written on, kind of watertight, is quite like ten thousand dollars or something. And I was like, immediately annoyed. So maybe it was a couple of hundred bucks. Um, but I, yeah, I wonder whether that makes divorce proceedings more straightforward or if it complicates things and then is more expensive to unpack.

• 33:07Georgia Allison?

  Yeah, wow.

• 33:08Freya Bleathman?

  I'd be interested.

• 33:09Georgia Allison?

  I'm so interested that you even looked into a prenup, to be honest. I love that. In a way, I, I'm just curious as what, is it because you're a child of divorced parents?

• 33:18Freya Bleathman?

  Uh, probably, honestly. I, I think I am. I mean, it's like what I said before, like, there but for the grace of God, go I. Like, you know what I mean? Like, anything can happen.

• 33:29Rafa Husain?

  Yeah.

• 33:29Freya Bleathman?

  I don't wanna be in a situation, I think I grew up with a bit of money anxiety.

• 33:35Georgia Allison?

  Sure.

• 33:35Freya Bleathman?

  Like, I was basically raised by my single mum with three kids and I didn't wanna be in a position, if I could help it, like that.

• 33:46Rafa Husain?

  Being so exposed.

• 33:47Freya Bleathman?

  Yeah, and I think as well, like pragmatically, I earn the most and my earning percent, potential is a lot higher. And I think, yeah, I just wanted to protect myself just in case. But it is, it's not very romantic. And I think Rue was a bit offended when I even brought up, but I said it from the day we met, before I even met him. I'm like, whoever I end up in a de facto relationship with, I'm gonna get a prenup.

• 34:11Georgia Allison?

  Yeah.

• 34:12Freya Bleathman?

  Like, I'm kind of shocked that I don't have one. That's very often.

• 34:14Rafa Husain?

  Yeah. Well, I think it's interesting because you just touched on de facto relationship. I have a lot of friends that are like, oh, I would never go through like the union of marriage and stuff like that, but they've got de facto relationships and living with their partners and their kids. And I was like, girl, you're, you're just as married as I am without the jewellery.

• 34:36Rafa Husain?

  You know, it's like.

• 34:37Freya Bleathman?

  You have to be living with them for six months.

• 34:38Georgia Allison?

  It's not long.

• 34:39Rafa Husain?

  It's not long and it's, I know a lot of people that it's royally, you know, screwed over in terms of like, you know, having an affair and then separation and then actually the splitting is.

• 34:49Freya Bleathman?

  Yeah, so does being married even make a difference?

• 34:52Rafa Husain?

  Not if you're living with your partner for more than six months, by the letter of the law. But you will split everything and it just comes up with that prenup conversation. We actually did Will's estates planning when we, after we bought a house and we were already married. Um, so that kind of came up, like where do you want things to go and that separation of assets? More so for, if something was to happen to Will and I. But it did get me thinking and I was like, oh, we probably should have done a, a, a prenup. But we do have a, a final snippet from Claire that, um, we could touch on where I think.

• 35:25Freya Bleathman?

  Oh, yeah.

• 35:26Rafa Husain?

  Might give us a bit to your question, is a prenup helpful?

• 35:30Georgia Allison?

  I'm super curious about prenups. So if any of our listeners have done one or contemplating doing one, please write in to us because I think that is a really interesting and practical tip that we could maybe have a bit more financial literacy and independence or understanding of our finances, which Claire has touched on.

• 35:49Rafa Husain?

  Yeah, absolutely. To that point, there is one final snippet from Claire. We're asking, what do you wish all women would do before getting married? What about married women? So let's hear.

• 36:02Speaker 03

  My first tip is don't avoid conversations about money. It might not be romantic, but discussing spending habits, financial goals and expectations early can prevent a lot of conflict later on. My second tip is to maintain some financial independence. Consider keeping an individual bank account alongside any joint accounts. Financial transparency is important, but so is maintaining some independence. And my third tip is have an honest conversation about what would happen if the relationship ended. Nobody enters into a marriage or relationship expecting it to fail.

• 36:46Speaker 03

  But discussing issues like finances, living arrangements and asset protection early can save significant stress down the track. In some situations, a binding financial agreement, also known as a prenuptial or cohabitation style agreement, may also be worth considering. The best time to have these conversations is when the relationship is strong, not when it is breaking down.

• 37:13Freya Bleathman?

  Great tip. Have you guys spoken to your partners about what would happen if you got divorced?

• 37:19Georgia Allison?

  I did last night in preparation for this.

• 37:21Freya Bleathman?

  That's so funny.

• 37:22Georgia Allison?

  I did. And Matt did not like the conversation, to be honest. He says, I actually don't like where this is going. And I said, it's all for prep. It's all for prep. But I, I even said to him, I expect you to be who you are right now in a divorce, which is what Claire touches on. No one enters into a relationship or a marriage thinking it's going to end in divorce and you are marrying a person who I think on the day that you get married is the best version of themselves and the person you wanna spend the rest of your life with, but that might not necessarily be the case. Um, so yeah, we touched on it last night, but didn't really go anywhere because he sort of didn't wanna go, uh, didn't wanna speak any further on it.

• 38:03Rafa Husain?

  What about you, Raf? We haven't, no. I didn't do that prep. But we probably will in hindsight. I'll come back and let you know if there's any learnings. I think similarly, you know, we've luckily married absolutely amazing human beings who are so respectful and great guys. You would hope that that would continue, um, you know, in your co-parenting and all that sort of stuff. I think I always come back to friends that have divorced or I've seen it and it's, the marriage might end, but that relationship can continue. So it's a, it's a new way of cohabitating or co-parenting. So, you know, you hear about it. I can't remember what they call it when it's like conscious uncoupling. That's right.

• 38:44Freya Bleathman?

  Oh, Gwyneth Paltrow.

• 38:46Rafa Husain?

  Yeah, yeah. Gwyneth Paltrow, Chris Martin come to mind when it's like, oh, we've chosen to do this. And, you know, that's a very modern day way of looking at.

• 38:54Georgia Allison?

  Also, they've got stacks of cash. It must be really easy to unconsciously.

• 38:58Freya Bleathman?

  It was probably harder when you've got, uh, maybe, I feel like it's easier if you have no money. Cause you're like, see ya.

• 39:05Rafa Husain?

  I think it's, you know, I'm thinking about the separation or having the fin, like it's all come back to money, which I'm surprised by. I definitely think there was other factors that might contribute to it. But I think the financial literacy, as you know, we talk about women's independence, or in this case, I'm centered around women, but whoever the, um, primary caregiver is like, you know, I think about the stay at home parents as well, that like, how did they start saving? You know, like when they're reliant on someone else's income, um, and you know, hope for the best. It just, yeah, it's, I don't know, making me feel a bit.

• 39:44Freya Bleathman?

  Yeah. I mean, they could still, I guess, have their own accounts, but you'd have to have a partner that.

• 39:49Rafa Husain?

  Is helping you.

• 39:50Freya Bleathman?

  Obviously respects the work you're doing and be giving you some kind of income. Yeah.

• 39:55Rafa Husain?

  Paying super, all that sort of stuff.

• 39:56Georgia Allison?

  I almost feel like that's a whole episode in itself because I have strong opinions of how stay at home mums could maybe keep some financial independence because they, what the work that they're doing should be honoured. And it should be, I mean, we all, can we, we all agree that it's maybe not, um, paid work, but it certainly is a lot of work.

• 40:18Rafa Husain?

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. How about you, Freya?

• 40:20Freya Bleathman?

  Well, we, funnily enough, listening to this, I was thinking, have we spoken about this? And the only thing that we've ever touched on is how we'd split the dogs if we got divorced? And who would get which dog?

• 40:34Georgia Allison?

  Well, as Claire says, that's actually quite important.

• 40:36Rafa Husain?

  That is an important conversation.

• 40:37Freya Bleathman?

  So we haven't discussed the actual human child, but we've got a plan in place for the dogs. I mean, bless them. They're 13 and 17. I don't know if they'll still be around potentially when the time comes.

• 40:51Georgia Allison?

  If the time comes, not when.

• 40:52Freya Bleathman?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. If the time comes. But anyway, that's, that's rock solid. So we've established that.

• 40:58Rafa Husain?

  That's good. Important chats.

• 41:00Georgia Allison?

  I feel like Claire had some really practical tips for people. Like I love the fact that she just wanted you, wanted the listeners to just have some conversations when the time is right and the feelings are good. And so you can have an uncomfortable conversation that's not sexy, it's not romantic, but it's practical. And you can sort of set the expectation, um, going forward or into your, into your, what will be a very happy marriage. But, you know, it's important to have those uncomfortable conversations.

• 41:29Freya Bleathman?

  Yeah.

• 41:29Georgia Allison?

  Early.

• 41:29Freya Bleathman?

  Yeah. I think, I mean, I don't know about you guys, but I fucking loved the structure of this episode. I love getting the voice notes from an expert. Let us know if you guys like this, cause I want to do more.

• 41:40Rafa Husain?

  Yeah, agreed.

• 41:42Freya Bleathman?

  Please email us at [email protected] or follow us on Instagram at the room podcast and send in your thoughts. We will see you next Tuesday.

• 41:53Rafa Husain?

  Bye.

• 41:53Freya Bleathman?

  Bye.

• 42:05Speaker 04

  Shameless Media. This podcast was recorded on Wurundjeri land. Always was, always will be Aboriginal land.

• 42:13Speaker 05

  At Edward Jones, we believe rich isn't about having life all figured out. It's opening yourself to all the possibilities. That's why your dedicated financial advisor provides long-term planning built around you, meeting you where you are and helping you get closer to where you want to be. So no matter where you're starting from, you can move forward with confidence. The key to being rich is knowing what counts. Let's find your rich. Edward Jones. Member SIPC.