Why did the world stop wanting boys?

In today's episode: there seems to be a growing preference among expectant parents to have a girl rather than a boy. We unpack gender preference, and whether it’s more difficult to raise boys or girls. Big thanks to Clearblue and OnePass for making this episode of The Room possible. Double your chances of getting pregnant with Clearblue’s Advanced Digital Ovulation Test and free cycle-tracking app. Learn more about the Advanced Digital Ovulation Test, or shop it now. OnePass members get early selected Black Friday products online at Kmart, Target, Bunnings and Priceline, plus free delivery on eligible items or orders. You can sign up to OnePass here. The Room is produced by Dimity Kirkwood, edited by Eilish Gilligan and executive-produced by Lucy Hunt. Our social media team consists of Naima Fatema and Divya Simmie, and our partnerships managers are Tabitha Rachmat and Tahnee Malina. We're a new show, and the best way to support us is by clicking ‘follow’ on Apple and Spotify, and we're super grateful to anyone who leaves a five-star review while they're at it. Also! An old-fashioned 'Tell a Friend In Real Life' is equally appreciated. You can follow The Room on Instagram and TikTok. Follow our hosts on Instagram here: Freya, Rafa and Georgia. Read the full article: Nobody Wants to Have a Baby Boy Anymore. Watch the TikTok compilation of reactions of gender reveals via @funny.usa834 on TikTok here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

• 0:03Speaker 00

  Welcome to The Room, where mothers meet to share their inner world. We're your hosts, I'm Freya Bleathman.

• 0:08Speaker 01

  I'm Georgia Allison.

• 0:09Speaker 02

  And I'm Rafa Husain.

• 0:10Speaker 01

  And today, we have a really awesome episode. It's gonna be quite a big one. But before we get into it, we do wanna see if anyone has a recommendation or something to share from the week.

• 0:19Speaker 02

  I usually do my notes for this show the day before. And yesterday, I just got so distracted by the news. I am a little political science major, little nerd.

• 0:30Speaker 02

  I was stoked to see some of the news coming out of America. And without going into the details, I lived in New York when the Obama presidency transferred to Trump. So there was like a lot of emotion living there at that time. And I just feel like yesterday's news, for the first time in like two and a half, three years, as someone that's really into world politics and culture and things like that, where I felt a bit of hope. And I think it ties in nicely to the topic that we're discussing today, where at the leadership levels of the world, when you have pretty toxic people or toxic masculinity traits surrounding our little people, it can be scary, you know, in what they say in the news. So I just feel like there's a little bit of a new dawn coming.

• 1:14Speaker 02

  And I don't wanna hang my hat on that, but I'm just hopeful, I think.

• 1:18Speaker 01

  Some good role models for boys.

• 1:19Speaker 02

  Absolutely, especially, yeah, you know, ethnic, different diversity groups, different religions and things like that. And hopefully, you know, people that are kids can look up to and feel inspired by versus the state of the world that's been pretty grim to date.

• 1:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, definitely. Give you a new, found hope in democracy as well, I thought. Good segue there, Rafa. Today's episode, we're gonna be talking about a particular article that we all read, which was titled, "When Did the World Stop Wanting Boys?"

• 1:51Speaker 02

  This episode of The Room is brought to you by Clearblue. Double your chances of getting pregnant with their advanced digital ovulation test and free cycle tracking app.

• 2:00Speaker 00

  All right, so "How the World Stopped Wanting Boys", which was published in GQ magazine and written by Sam Parker. Have you guys read the article?

• 2:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:10Speaker 01

  Yes, I devoured it.

• 2:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, I loved this. I'll pull, there's one quote that I really loved that I wanna start with. "A new kind of gender reveal video is becoming a genre of its own, one in which a particular reaction is the main event. A recent compilation racked up 33 million views and 3 million likes on TikTok. Expecting couples do not scream with delight when the colour appears, they scream in horror. They collapse and cry. The reason is nearly always the same, it's blue, they're having a boy."

• 2:42Speaker 01

  There is a TikTok example that we all shared with each other. It is like a compilation videos of gender reveal parties, sort of like quote unquote, gone wrong.

• 2:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:52Speaker 01

  And yeah.

• 2:53Speaker 02

  Just to give a bit of a flavour of the topic that we're talking about.

• 2:56Speaker 01

  Definitely, it's a good one.

• 2:59Speaker 03

  Brinley, watch out. No!

• 3:06Speaker 03

  Pull it out, pull it out. Open them. No!

• 3:12Speaker 01

  Far out.

• 3:27Speaker 02

  I thought this one was gonna be funny.

• 3:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:34Speaker 02

  You get the flavour of and the gist of the videos. Hilariously, the video, the second video, when I heard it without looking at the video, she sounds like a baby, like, and she's the mum. That's a pregnant mum stomping out and like having the biggest reaction.

• 3:50Speaker 01

  Like a toddler tantrum.

• 3:51Speaker 02

  Which I think just, yeah, is some of the problematic feels that I have when you watch that kind of video.

• 3:56Speaker 00

  Oh, I hate it.

• 3:58Speaker 01

  I know.

• 3:58Speaker 00

  Especially, the one that really bothered me was the first one, which was the mum and dad kind of opening a cupboard to reveal the colour clothes in there. And they had what was clearly their two sons with them. They opened it to reveal the blue. And that was the mum that was saying, "No!"

• 4:15Speaker 01

  And stomped off.

• 4:17Speaker 00

  Which makes me feel sick, those poor little boys seeing that. I just, I mean, I find it so bizarre. Like, you guys know it's like a 50/50 chance.

• 4:28Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 4:28Speaker 00

  Why, A, why are they so shocked? B, if you have such a strong preference, why are you filming it? And doing it in front of all these people?

• 4:37Speaker 01

  I agree. But also, it's a choice to then upload it as well.

• 4:40Speaker 02

  I know.

• 4:40Speaker 01

  Like, I feel like that's, you know, you can feel perhaps a gender disappointment or sort of a gender preference when you, you know, you've fallen pregnant.

• 4:50Speaker 00

  I think that's normal. I would almost say that it would be very rare. Not very rare, I feel like people would have even a slight preference. Or, "Oh, a girl would be nice, a boy would be nice."

• 5:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:01Speaker 02

  Especially in that video, she was, that was their third kid. And she had two boys.

• 5:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:06Speaker 02

  So clearly, in that trying to conceive process, she's hoping for a girl. But to your point, it's a 50/50 chance that it's gonna go one way or the other. So if you're gonna have a strong reaction to it, which is probably valid, if she's really desperate for a girl, don't film that shit.

• 5:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:23Speaker 02

  And don't do it in front of your boys.

• 5:24Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 5:24Speaker 02

  Like, to show.

• 5:25Speaker 01

  The decision to then upload it, to share it publicly. And have, like, once it's on the internet, it's on the internet forever.

• 5:31Speaker 02

  Bad taste.

• 5:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:32Speaker 02

  We're just rage baiting, to be honest. They've probably made a lot of money. I know, I bring this up every TikTok.

• 5:36Speaker 00

  You really do.

• 5:36Speaker 02

  You do.

• 5:39Speaker 00

  It's everything wrong with the world.

• 5:41Speaker 01

  A complete side issue. I don't even understand the TikTok Creator Fund. We'll have to ask you on another episode. But I do think the choice there is odd. If you're feeling sort of, you've got a bit of disappointment there.

• 5:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:55Speaker 01

  Or a preference that hasn't been fulfilled, I just can't get around you then uploading it and having your future son potentially see the reaction that you publicly shared.

• 6:08Speaker 02

  I can't get around anyone having a reaction if it's their first child, to be honest.

• 6:11Speaker 01

  I agree.

• 6:12Speaker 02

  Like, and that's not to say, and we'll probably touch on this a little bit later, in terms of our own preferences and what we've grown up with. But if you're trying to conceive, you are having a 50/50 chance of a boy and a girl, and you have a strong reaction on the first, like, that really stresses me out. Because then I question, like, should you be the parent?

• 6:31Speaker 01

  I agree.

• 6:32Speaker 02

  And I think I particularly had a strong reaction when I was trying to conceive in some of those videos, clearly because my algorithm had gone towards like pregnancy, birth, you know.

• 6:40Speaker 00

  And because you'd had a bit of a long process to get rid of me.

• 6:43Speaker 02

  You know, longer, almost a year-long journey trying to conceive with room. You ended up doing a bit of fertility treatment. So then I would like, while I'm wallowing, I'm seeing these like negative reactions to their first child, I'm like, at least you get to be pregnant. Like, not suck it up, but also what, like, how do you form that type of strong opinion?

• 7:01Speaker 00

  And this, I guess, so that we're talking about gender reveals in general and strong opinions. What do you guys think about the fact that all of these negative reactions were about finding out they were having boys?

• 7:14Speaker 01

  Oh, I feel very, very strongly and sad about it.

• 7:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:17Speaker 01

  As a mother of three boys, who I did not have a gender disappointment experience. I found out that I was having the three boys. I don't think I would have found out if I was having one or if I was having two. And that's mainly because I knew that they would be boys. I had a very strong intuition that I would be, that at least my first child would be a boy.

• 7:37Speaker 02

  Is that because you've got brothers and Matt is also?

• 7:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it's also because my cousin had a baby and she had a boy and.

• 7:44Speaker 00

  And you're quite intuitive.

• 7:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:45Speaker 01

  Well, that's true.

• 7:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, you do. As someone that's not intuitive.

• 7:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know.

• 7:51Speaker 00

  Like, you both are, actually.

• 7:52Speaker 01

  I think, I think when my cousin had her son and he was like one of the reasons why like the light flicked for me, then I wanted to have a child when I saw her become a mother. So I just assumed, oh yeah, she had a boy, I'll have a boy. And so I did find out that they were all boys. And that was mainly because I needed to have some control in my pregnancy. So finding out the sexes of the children was quite important to Matt and I. And the third baby really did sway me to think, ooh, actually, I think there's a girl in there. So I didn't have gender disappointment, because I sort of knew in my heart that they were probably all boys. But something in me thought, well, I'd like to have a girl there as well.

• 8:37Speaker 01

  I knew that two, I knew the identical pair would be two boys.

• 8:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:40Speaker 01

  But I was like, oh, I'm, I might be able to recreate my own sibling dynamic. Like, I have two brothers. But when they found out, when we found out there were three boys, I didn't feel gender disappointment at all, I think.

• 8:54Speaker 00

  And how did you find out? Was there any ambiguity? Because I can imagine it would be reasonably high, because you can get the blood test, but that can only really tell you that there's at least one boy in there.

• 9:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I had the NIP test and it came out with the chromosome.

• 9:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, there's a Y in there somewhere.

• 9:09Speaker 01

  Exactly, so we're like, cool, one boy. I knew that would be the case. And then, and I think it was actually such a funny experience finding out that they were all boys, because I think we found out really early. Like, at a scan, we knew that there was one boy. I knew that there was gonna be at least two. I thought the identical pair would be boys. And then the technician did an ultrasound and we weren't, it wasn't super clear whether or not we would be able to see the genitals. And anyway, I remember just sitting there. And they put it on and I was like, hey, is that what I think it is? And they're like, yeah, it is. And I'm like, is that another one? And they're like, yeah. And I'm like, yeah. And they're like, yes.

• 9:53Speaker 00

  There you go.

• 9:54Speaker 01

  Okay, there we go.

• 9:55Speaker 00

  Tick, tick, tick. Having three of them, being like, okay, was that the one we've already seen?

• 10:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's so hard. Oh my gosh, my ultrasounds took so long. Like, remember the twenty week anatomy scan? I was in there for an hour and, no, nearly two and a half hours. It was more than, it was more, because then also I had to like relieve my bladder, stand up, almost do a cartwheel to get them to see, to see, they were really obviously quite particular. Like, they should be in all twenty week anatomy scans, but particularly looking for

• 10:29Speaker 01

  any sort of abnormalities or genetics.

• 10:31Speaker 00

  Gens towards, yeah.

• 10:33Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, you're gonna have a lot to offer in this episode because I think we all come from it in like slightly different ways.

• 10:38Speaker 01

  I know, we do, don't we?

• 10:39Speaker 02

  You've got three boys, I've got a boy and a girl, Freya's got a girl. And we're sort of talking here around, yeah, this commonality in this theme that we're seeing around disappointment. When people find out they're having boys. And overall, there is a little bit of a decline that we're sort of seeing in the preference of having girls over boys. And interestingly, in the US, a piece of data sort of suggests the same trend appears among adoptive parents, which I found really interesting. In the article that we referenced earlier, there was this really interesting quote. According to the National Bureau of Economic Research, prospective parents were willing to pay an average of sixteen thousand dollars more

• 11:20Speaker 02

  for a girl than a boy. And among couples having IVF in the US, where unlike the UK, sex selection is legal.

• 11:28Speaker 00

  And in Australia, it's not so illegal like in the UK.

• 11:31Speaker 02

  Leading clinics have reported seventy five to eighty percent of patients wanting a girl. Like, let's talk that out.

• 11:37Speaker 01

  It's crazy. First of all, did you know that, I didn't really understand, I had to look this up, that you pay for, to adopt a child in the US? Like, you can pay upwards of sixty thousand dollars. I did not know this.

• 11:49Speaker 02

  It's a wild wild west out there in terms of how.

• 11:52Speaker 01

  I mean, there are, like, in Australia, I looked into it, looked into it. And to adopt a child in Australia can range up to, you know, three to four thousand dollars. And that's to do with sort of the legal administrative sessions on being adoptive parents. And other sort of like educational seminars. And then obviously, if you're adopting internationally, you're dealing with

• 12:15Speaker 00

  agency fees.

• 12:15Speaker 01

  Agency fees and foreign transportation of the child and so on. But I was shocked that you, that sixteen thousand US more for a girl.

• 12:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's pretty crazy, like the trends that we're sort of seeing. And I think there's a deeper ethical conversation that probably needs to be discussed around sex selection. I am so grateful that it is illegal. I hope it continues to be that way because we shouldn't, I just don't personally feel like we should have a role in interfering with that. Regardless of having preferences, I think we can all kind of attest to. And I'd love to know, did you have a preference going in? We've kind of touched on your story, Freya. Did you have a preference going in?

• 12:57Speaker 00

  Uh, I think I had a slight preference for having a girl. I, I think I just wanted to, I, I saw myself having a daughter at some point in my life. Because Golds is hopefully our first, I mean, I should say, it's a pretty gender binary conversation. I don't know. Sex wise, she's female. Um, who knows what her gender will ultimately be. But I had a very slight preference for a girl maybe, but I really don't think I would have cared. It's hard to know without being in this situation. But we actually didn't find out what we were having until she was born. So I went the whole pregnancy.

• 13:32Speaker 01

  Oh, you did the surprise.

• 13:34Speaker 00

  Which, to be honest, mostly was because my husband, Rue, didn't want to know. Which is funny if you know us personalities wise.

• 13:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, that is interesting.

• 13:44Speaker 00

  Think he'd want to know, because he's pretty, uh, he likes having a plan. He likes having a bit of control over a situation. He just said it's the only true surprise we have left in life. So.

• 13:55Speaker 02

  That's so funny because I, I love that also, but I feel like the birth has so many surprises as it is. That finding out the sex in the delivery room, even though I didn't have a strong preference, I was like, that would have really overwhelmed me. And I'm so glad I knew going into it.

• 14:13Speaker 00

  I mean, I also, finding out when she came out, I feel like there was so much going on that it almost didn't really register. Like, I didn't really care that much. What about you, Raf? Did you know what you were having?

• 14:24Speaker 02

  We did the nip test and.

• 14:26Speaker 00

  Which is the blood test you get at ten weeks, the non-invasive prenatal testing.

• 14:30Speaker 02

  And you can find out the sex alongside that sort of process. But we were going to Vietnam the following week. And so the nurse was like, do you want us to call you when we've got the results? And I was like, yeah. Anyways, we're on a tour on the way to Ha Long Bay in a group van. And we get this unknown number and I'm like, I, I have a feeling this is the nurse's calling. It was, they called, they're on speaker because the reception was so bad. And they're like, it's a male. And like, everyone in the van heard and they're like, yay, they're having a baby. And Will's like fist bumping the air. Later that day, we had like massages on the boat that we were at. And this lady goes, she's like, oh, you're doing a pregnancy massage and on the cruise that we were at.

• 15:14Speaker 02

  And I'm like, yeah. She's like, your boy's gonna be handsome and very active. And it's hilarious because the whole pregnancy, we were like handsome and active. And now we've got our two and a half year old handsome and active boy. She's like, lived up to that. When she told us we were having a male, I was pumped. I was like, oh, this is super exciting. But then I had a very like sort of sick feeling in my stomach. And it wasn't about the sex, it was about my insecurity and lack of confidence that I felt about raising a boy, because I'm one of two girls. And I think the preference, the slight preference for a girl was based on familiarity of what you've grown up with. And so in my case, I'm really close to my sister, we're close to our mum, it's pretty cliche, but I kind of, I love women.

• 15:59Speaker 02

  I am full feminist. And so, and I, and I love the roles that we kind of play in our family as being connectors and nurturers. So I think I wanted to kind of to replicate that. But then, you know, this other opportunity came in to be a boy mum. And so instead of feeling scared about that, I, like a lot of things in my life, I started researching and learning about it. And, you know, I caught Will's infectious attitude about it as well. He was stoked to be a boy dad. And so one thing that I kind of went through our pregnancy thinking about was, oh, I love this guy being my husband and I get to have a mini version of you.

• 16:40Speaker 02

  And I will say, fast forward to me finding out I was having a girl. I thought I was gonna be a boy mum because I loved it so much that I was like, oh, this is my new like identity. I'm like a boy mum and, you know, we're out in the parks and, you know, not that, that's a very cliche thing to say. We do that with Lila anyway. But I think I embraced what was gonna come from being a boy mum. Then we found out we're having a girl and I was like, really tripped up. But then excited in a different way.

• 17:08Speaker 00

  But I find that interesting though, because you found out about Lila, you would have been like eight months postpartum?

• 17:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, I was six and a half months when we found out about Lila.

• 17:22Speaker 00

  And you would have done the nip.

• 17:22Speaker 02

  And I did the nip test that week. So I found out that I was pregnant and was able to do the blood test to confirm I was eleven and a half weeks at the time, because I found out I was pregnant.

• 17:33Speaker 00

  What I would do to skip the first one.

• 17:35Speaker 02

  I know, I was like, except for.

• 17:37Speaker 00

  Skip but not be aware of it.

• 17:39Speaker 02

  I may have said this in my episode zero, it was matcha, that was a big giveaway that I went to have coffee. But aside from that, I thankfully felt really good. So I was able to do the nip test and the twelve weeks.

• 17:51Speaker 01

  What a whirlwind.

• 17:52Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, the scan all at the same time.

• 17:54Speaker 00

  Do you think that your experience of having a boy in those six months was any different to having a girl? Like you said, it was a boy mum and you loved being a boy mum.

• 18:04Speaker 02

  It wasn't, probably if I looked at the baby on the floor, no, not at all. But the perception of like, just a new world. And it's probably dictated by the fact that I just grew up with my sister. I kind of, even though I've got a lot of male cousins, I didn't really know what it was gonna be like. And so when I was, you know, reading about Dr. Billy Garvey and how to raise like emotionally resilient boys, like, I kind of was just like excited by that. And I have spoken to Will about this recently. And one of the blessings of no matter what kids you get, what sex you get, the boy-girl opportunity is that they are very different.

• 18:45Speaker 02

  I think they will, I, I'm, I will nurture what the child is in front of me versus kind of stereotypical like sex conversation.

• 18:54Speaker 00

  So I wonder whether my preference for having a girl, and Rue did have a slight preference for having a boy. I wonder if it's a bit of an ego thing.

• 19:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, baby.

• 19:03Speaker 00

  Like, you want it to be a little mini you and bring another, I, I, I think I did feel a bit like that. I wanted another me, but I wanted to have her grow out with all the, grow up with all the, without all the sort of anxieties and neurosis.

• 19:18Speaker 01

  Right, the wrongs, right?

• 19:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, hundred percent.

• 19:22Speaker 00

  I would feel, I don't know whether if I had a boy, he would be able to just be his own person a bit more from the start.

• 19:29Speaker 02

  Without the pressure of it, yeah. Potentially. I think like, I feel a little bit of that. You know, I am conscious about how we talk about ourselves in front of both of our kids, to be honest. And so I think the rules are the same. And my whole motto is, I'm not worried about raising a more emotionally intelligent Rumi. I'm really concerned about raising emotionally intelligent kids, full stop.

• 19:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. I want to hear from you, Georgia, about how people responded to you saying you were having three boys. But first, let's hear a quick word from today's sponsor.

• 20:04Speaker 02

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• 21:20Speaker 00

  So Georgia, did you have any negative reactions when you told people you were having three boys?

• 21:27Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 21:28Speaker 00

  Does that surprise anybody?

• 21:30Speaker 02

  Not at all.

• 21:31Speaker 00

  I hate that it does. It actually kind of does surprise me that people would have a negative reaction to you telling them something about your unborn babies.

• 21:39Speaker 02

  I think if you could map the reactions, you would have definitely had more negative reactions to three boys than you would have if you said you had three girls. There's something about it that just...

• 21:48Speaker 01

  I know. It's like, people would start by saying, you know, when I dropped the bomb, oh, I'm having triplets. They're like, oh my God, do you know what their sex is? Yes, it's three boys. Like, oh, you poor thing.

• 22:00Speaker 00

  Oh, so it was the boys, not the triplet aspects?

• 22:04Speaker 01

  I think it was a double whammy. I started with the triplet. I showed that card and then my ace. It was like, it's three boys. I mean, I'll never know what the reactions I would have gotten if there were three girls, but I share that opinion as well, Raf. I think I would have gotten, oh gorgeous, three little girls.

• 22:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, you're so lucky. They'll look after you forever.

• 22:27Speaker 01

  And I do, I mean, it's not all negative that I got and still do. Like, I fear for the rest of my life, I will experience other people's gender disappointment on my behalf.

• 22:39Speaker 00

  That is interesting. I love, that is... I wonder, Rafa, do you get almost the opposite? Having the pigeon pair? Do people say that?

• 22:49Speaker 02

  The opposite being, you're so lucky?

• 22:51Speaker 00

  Well, yeah, one of each. You've got one of each, perfect.

• 22:54Speaker 02

  I do, I do. Yeah, absolutely. Like, I think if we had had a second boy, there probably would have been similar, like, reactions. Oh, you're going to be so busy, you'll be running off your feet, they're so active. It's like, yep, all obvious, know that. Whereas the fact that we had a girl, they were like, what a blessing. You're so lucky, you know, one of each.

• 23:17Speaker 01

  It's bizarre, really. And that's just like conditioning. And I think that your unborn children have, if you find out there's a boy or a girl, you're already gender stereotyping them.

• 23:30Speaker 02

  Projecting.

• 23:31Speaker 01

  And projecting the version of society onto this unborn child. It's madness.

• 23:36Speaker 00

  We do it to newborn babies. We talk to boys less, we make less eye contact with them, we kiss them less, like from the second they're born.

• 23:44Speaker 01

  Sing to them less.

• 23:45Speaker 00

  There was a really interesting quote from the article in GQ that what you just had reminded me of. And it was talking about the change in preference. They talk about how historically there used to be a preference for boys and how it's flipped. And they said, "Some of this isn't simply about girls finally being valued properly. There is a growing and increasingly open distaste for boys, a sense that they are inherently problematic, undesirable by default."

• 24:11Speaker 01

  It makes me so sad.

• 24:12Speaker 02

  It is really sad. Why do you think that is? Do you think it's harder to raise boys than girls right now? Or an idea that it is?

• 24:20Speaker 00

  I feel like there's this sense that if you sort of fuck up a girl, they will self-destruct a bit. But if you fuck up a boy, they'll destroy the world. I don't know, if like, maybe that, I don't know. I don't necessarily believe that. But I feel like there's this sense that a bad man can do so much more damage than a bad woman, to be really simplistic about it.

• 24:45Speaker 01

  I think that's interesting because I also share that to a degree. Like, I don't know if I completely agree with it. And I don't even think you do either. I think that there's just this general fear right now about raising boys and hoping that they won't self-destruct, be violent. I mean, one in three men have been violent to their intimate partner. Those are the facts.

• 25:09Speaker 00

  Well, and I saw, I think it was on Cheek Media's Instagram page or something in New South Wales, one in 10 men have been like charged or like formally reported for domestic violence of some form, which is horrendous. They're terrifying stats.

• 25:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I think it's right to talk about it because the stats are showing, to your point, that if we don't raise emotionally resilient men,

• 25:41Speaker 01

  empathetic men.

• 25:42Speaker 02

  And empathetic and respectful men, they do impact society. And it is often women who are the victims of that male aggression and violence. So I think it's right to be talking about it because that is what the data and the stats are showing. And, you know, as women that have daughters in our lives as well, it's like, we want to keep them safe and protected. And we owe society that by being able to raise these boys. And I think, you know, our state of man is an ABC Eye View show at the moment where Mark Fennell is going out to try and discover and explore why when his son went to go get Pokemon cards was being fed Manosphere content.

• 26:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, on YouTube.

• 26:27Speaker 02

  It's an incredible show.

• 26:29Speaker 00

  I've seen little snippets. I haven't actually watched it yet.

• 26:32Speaker 02

  And it talks about this very real saying that we're saying, to your point, around a distaste for boys. I personally do think it's harder to raise boys at the moment because we have, and this is when I did a little bit of research and reading around raising a boy and my sister having a 10-year-old boy, she's further along on this process. She gave me this amazing book called Raising Men by an Australian psychologist called Steve Bidoof. And I also think that if you are in this grappling with how to raise a good boy and a girl, go back, like, cancel Instagram content creators and go back to some of these profound psychologists who are dedicated educators in this space and read a book.

• 27:15Speaker 02

  Because these books have taught me more about parenting than any six-second reel will ever, ever be able to teach me. Who would have thought? And I have taken those philosophies. And I think they're really important because there are frameworks in place around how to raise boys and what's happening culturally. It's called rites of passage. It's a framework and there's an institute in Australia run by a man called Arnie Rubenstein, who has sort of talked about the development and changes that men have faced. And it's much more significant than women have changed from this hunter, sort of protector, secure model of like our fathers' generations and fathers before them. Our men now, who have become dads,

• 27:59Speaker 02

  are the first in our generation to do parenting differently. And so they're in a state of transition at the moment of what being a man used to be to what it looks like now and what that will look like for our young boys. And it's quite important that those rites of passages and those rituals are maintained because Mark Fennell's documentary and what we're sort of seeing with what Dr Billy Garvey is doing around how men and boys are being raised at the moment.

• 28:26Speaker 00

  And Dr Billy Garvey is a paediatrician, a developmental paed in Melbourne, actually.

• 28:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're just spending a bit of time to kind of say they are different. And it's important that you know that difference so that we can raise them and move away from these dire, sort of grim statistics and what is happening in our world to raise boys differently.

• 28:48Speaker 00

  So it's biological as well as social. I think it'd be remiss of us to assume that there are no biological differences between girls and boys. They've got an entirely different chromosome. There are differences between them. But I totally agree with you, Raf, about the impact of social media. I feel like on my algorithm, it's...

• 29:12Speaker 00

  Like kind of uncool to have boys. And I mean, I think that's probably a product of the kind of more sort of left wing media and, and things that I consume. But it bothers me.

• 29:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:24Speaker 00

  It bothers me because I feel like we need to be calling people in, not pushing them away. And pushing them potentially further down these manosphere paths and incel paths.

• 29:35Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 29:35Speaker 00

  I, I think we're in a state of flux that is this really vulnerable time, like you said, Raf, and we've got to get it right.

• 29:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:42Speaker 00

  Because the alternative is dire, yeah.

• 29:45Speaker 01

  I think also there's a bit of a correlation between the fear of raising boys and the pressure on parents to get it right.

• 29:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:53Speaker 01

  And I wonder the link there is that millennial parents are the most educated parents of history right now. And they have so much information and resources at their disposal. So I think the pressure to get it right, to your point, Raf, there's just so much information bombarding you on like what you should do with your boys compared to what you should do with your girl. They're neurologically wired differently. So do this, this and this. I think it's a great idea to remove any social media because or just go back to your intuition or just thinking about like how you would want to parent your child without the

• 30:32Speaker 01

  noise of even, even from um our experts. Sometimes you just need to do what's, what feels right.

• 30:40Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I think to your point, even if you don't want to read a book or if you don't want to read social media, one thing that we've kind of come back to and Will and I talk about around his desire to raise a boy. And I was like, why did you want a boy so much? Like, and he has a very romantic view of how he grew up, which was outdoors a lot, building Lego. He used to change car engines and tyres and all those like little ritualistic things that yeah, maybe cliche stereotypes of boys who will absolutely get Lila to learn how to change a car tyre when room is doing it. But um for, to, to that biological sort of way, we used to spend our time outdoors.

• 31:20Speaker 02

  Most of it screen free. They are significant things that I think we're kind of not doing as well in modern parenting where yeah, screens are okay, that's fine. What the kids are watching is probably the most important thing. And in the rites of passage framework, they talk about you know, the early years of boys being quite close to their mum. And then around six, they start looking for role models.

• 31:43Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 31:43Speaker 02

  And this won't change.

• 31:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:44Speaker 02

  It's where you get your role model from that is incredibly important. So in the cases where you've got a father that's present, they are looking to dad and they're like, you are my guy.

• 31:54Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 31:54Speaker 02

  And then if you don't have a father, they're looking at their uncles, they're looking at their sports coaches, they're looking at their teachers.

• 32:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:00Speaker 02

  They're looking at like the neighbourhood around, people that they will get inspired by.

• 32:06Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 32:06Speaker 02

  If you don't focus on who that boy is looking up to and it are potential, you know, content creators out there. That's where the Andrew Tates of the world and the manosphere and really toxic masculinity people will come into their sphere and they'll go, that guy was cool.

• 32:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:22Speaker 02

  And they feed off that.

• 32:24Speaker 00

  And they get those videos within, I don't even know.

• 32:27Speaker 01

  It's 28 seconds or something like that. Yeah.

• 32:29Speaker 00

  Yeah. When they're scrolling TikTok or whatever, they will get fed manosphere content.

• 32:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:35Speaker 00

  Um, so I want to know, we've spoken a little bit about our experiences finding out the sex of our babies. I want to know about how the listeners felt finding out the sex of their babies. But first, let's hear a word from today's sponsor.

• 32:49Speaker 02

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• 33:30Speaker 00

  So as you all know, Shameless Media did their census survey of 20,000 listeners a few months ago. And we asked of those who had a child whether they experienced disappointment when they learnt their baby's sex. So I think didn't, you're just going to tell us now?

• 33:48Speaker 00

  One in six or 17%. Alright, so that was one in six or 17%.

• 33:53Speaker 01

  Experienced gender disappointment. But we should note that in this census, we uh didn't ask whether or not it was because of you uh had a boy or if you had a girl.

• 34:06Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 34:07Speaker 01

  We might try and capture that data in next years.

• 34:10Speaker 00

  I think that would be very interesting.

• 34:12Speaker 01

  Well, yes.

• 34:12Speaker 00

  Hmm. So what, was that similar to what you would have expected?

• 34:17Speaker 02

  That's lower than I thought.

• 34:18Speaker 00

  You thought more would be disappointing?

• 34:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:20Speaker 00

  Well, I wonder if you.

• 34:21Speaker 02

  Maybe it's just because I see such bad reactions to the gender reveal.

• 34:24Speaker 00

  But this is everyone that's had a baby that answered that question. So if we said, if we just asked the people that found out they were having boys.

• 34:33Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 34:33Speaker 00

  Perhaps that stat would have been different.

• 34:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:36Speaker 01

  And I also think a lot of our listeners would be

• 34:40Speaker 01

  like potentially first time mums. And to your point earlier, Raf.

• 34:44Speaker 00

  That's important, yeah.

• 34:44Speaker 01

  That it would be strange if you had gender disappointment on your first child. And I support that.

• 34:50Speaker 00

  Friends that did. I had a friend that found out she was having a boy and she cried for an entire day. It was her first baby.

• 34:57Speaker 01

  And then did she get over it pretty quickly? Was it just the preference and maybe what she envisioned her motherhood experience to look like? Because I can sort of understand that.

• 35:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:06Speaker 01

  Those feelings are valid if you are expecting something and it doesn't come into fruition.

• 35:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:13Speaker 00

  I think, uh, it's sort of like what we've been talking about. I think there was a bit of fear there.

• 35:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:18Speaker 00

  About the responsibility of raising a good man and how scary that feels at the moment. But I don't know. I mean, I, I actually, I have no judgment for anyone that experiences gender disappointment. I think it is like you said, it's like a form of grief. You're grieving this life that maybe you imagined that you would have and that you're not going to have. The thing I judge is people posting their really negative reactions online.

• 35:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, because you can't take that away. And that kid might be able to see it later on down the track.

• 35:52Speaker 00

  Do you know what? I do, a little part of me watches those videos. I'm like, you are not the kind of person I want raising a boy either.

• 35:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:58Speaker 00

  That lack of emotional intelligence, that lack of perspective. I just, I don't know, maybe that sounds a bit judgy, but.

• 36:06Speaker 02

  It's true though, because you kind of need to have some level of strong emotional.

• 36:10Speaker 00

  I wish you were having a girl too.

• 36:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:12Speaker 02

  It is worrying when you say that kind of stuff.

• 36:14Speaker 01

  I feel like I'm always, if I get a negative response, and I still to this day around having three boys, you know, super active, you must be busy, which I am, but I almost feel like my reactions to that, I'm almost overcompensating.

• 36:30Speaker 00

  I, so that's my theory about boy mum. When people, you know, when people have their like Insta bio, I'm a boy mum. You don't really see people saying, I'm a girl mum. And I wonder whether there's a little bit of overcompensation there, like a little bit of.

• 36:43Speaker 01

  I don't know if we're gonna, I, I think we might let, I don't know if we agree yet.

• 36:48Speaker 00

  Sorry, yes, I'll let you finish.

• 36:49Speaker 02

  I would say it's deserved because of how much negativity there is around.

• 36:53Speaker 00

  That's what I'm almost mean though. Like you're kind of getting on the front foot. Like, don't you feel sorry for me because I love being a boy mum?

• 37:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:01Speaker 01

  Okay, then we sort of are the same. When I get a negative response from people or just a response that feels a bit icky in front of my kids especially. And if I get a response which is, yeah, which is like, oh, three boys, oh, you must be busy. Oh, they're so active. God, you know, rather you, not me, that sort of type of sentiment. I almost feel like my immediate reaction is overcompensating. And I'm sort of saying, no, no, we love it.

• 37:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:29Speaker 01

  They're the best.

• 37:30Speaker 00

  I hate girls.

• 37:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:33Speaker 00

  Girls are all.

• 37:33Speaker 01

  I almost, yeah, I think I am. I'm overcompensating to a degree, especially in front of them because

• 37:39Speaker 00

  Of course.

• 37:40Speaker 01

  God forbid my kids hear that and think like, hold on, what?

• 37:43Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 37:44Speaker 01

  What's wrong with me?

• 37:45Speaker 00

  It's like those two little boys in the first video.

• 37:47Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly. And I think if you're, if you're constantly being told as a, as a young kid, young boy especially, oh, you're too loud, you're too much, you're too active.

• 37:58Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 37:59Speaker 01

  Then honestly, that's a label that they might. Become.

• 38:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:03Speaker 01

  And think like, oh, that's me. And I think that is a bit of a problem socially right now, and it's being fed into our algorithms.

• 38:12Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 38:12Speaker 01

  And I wonder, um, I mean, I, I understand the pressure. I really resonate with a lot of the things that they said in this article around the pressure or the fear of raising, you know, boys right now. Like, our kids are young. My, my, my children are four. My, my son's favourite colour is purple and he's four. It's still to this day. They're wearing dress ups.

• 38:35Speaker 00

  I love that your boys dress up as princesses. But didn't one of them go as a witch to Halloween?

• 38:39Speaker 01

  Yes, they've gone to witch. I asked you with, here is a bad witch or a good witch? And he says, I'm a bad witch.

• 38:43Speaker 00

  Oh, I'm a bad bitch, babe.

• 38:45Speaker 01

  I really, I really was hoping he'd say bad bitch, but he didn't. Um, it plays on my mind a lot about the role, the, the importance of role models, the importance of school educators and the importance of social media at the time where they're going to be undoubtedly given a phone and then flooded within 28 seconds, potentially manosphere or just any sort of man that they might see like, oh, cool. I like the way that he's talking. He's very confident. I like, you know, you're making a lot of sense there. And then that's just potentially the beginning of the end. And hopefully we can support our sons, our children especially, to be resilient, to have an emotional intelligence, to be empathetic about different situations.

• 39:29Speaker 01

  But there's only so much that a parent can do. And that's where I think, feel like there's a link between the fear of raising boys as well as the pressure on parents.

• 39:40Speaker 00

  Yeah. I'd love to hear from the listeners who, you know, one in six experience gender disappointment. I'd love to know what, how long that lasted for.

• 39:50Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 39:51Speaker 00

  And what, if anything, helped ease that disappointment? Whether there was a refrain that they used or there was something that really helped them. I think that would be interesting, but also potentially helpful for anyone who might be searching this episode in the future. They're looking up on Spotify, gender disappointment, they come across this pod and there's a few comments there from people saying that they were in that situation and this is maybe what helped.

• 40:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, totally. I, I, and I think to that point, I would love to just end this chat by saying, there's hope.

• 40:22Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 40:23Speaker 02

  Out there and the State of Man documentary and these educators that we're seeing out in society, really helping us as parents be armed with the right information is incredibly important because I do think that us as parents and especially our generation, we're doing things differently. We've got incredible role model dads, like look at our husbands, like breaking down gender stereotypes, really leaning in, incredible role models to our kids. So it's not all doom and gloom. I think we're probably being surrounded by that information, but Roomy is my answer to the manosphere.

• 40:57Speaker 00

  And Roomy, it's funny comparing Roomy and Lila. Lila's in the more boisterous.

• 41:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. Roomy's incredibly thoughtful.

• 41:06Speaker 00

  Beautiful with Goldie.

• 41:07Speaker 02

  He's a gentle boy.

• 41:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:09Speaker 02

  And this comes down to raising the person that's in front of you, not a version that you think or someone else's kid or comparing it. Um, I think every emotionally literate, respectful boy that we get to raise with the right information is the answer.

• 41:25Speaker 00

  I think it's exciting.

• 41:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's an exciting.

• 41:27Speaker 00

  I'm a boy, so I'm feeling really motivated for this chat.

• 41:30Speaker 02

  I think it's a, it's an exciting, um, responsibility that we have. And it doesn't come down to just boys. It's also applicable to girls and just raising the respectful kids and good humans out there.

• 41:41Speaker 01

  I think it's important to also note that boys aren't the problem, they are the solution. And like our women and our children, our girls really depend on it. And I think also just to your point, Raf, I don't want this episode, episode to feel doom and gloom because I do have so much hope for the parents who are raising our children today.

• 42:02Speaker 00

  And I think, I mean, not to gloat, but our listeners.

• 42:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, definitely.

• 42:06Speaker 00

  They're going to be raising good boys.

• 42:07Speaker 01

  If they're listening to this episode or they're in this, well, they're in this room.

• 42:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's the perfect note to end it on.

• 42:13Speaker 01

  I agree. If you have loved this episode or you have a friend that you, you know, is pregnant or has experienced gender disappointment, please send it on and send us in your thoughts about the episode. You can do that by emailing [email protected]. Please follow us at the room podcast on Instagram. We will be back in your ears on Thursday.

• 42:33Speaker 00

  See you Thursday.

• 42:33Speaker 01

  Bye.

• 42:40Speaker 04

  Shameless Media.

• 42:41Speaker 02

  This podcast was recorded on Wurundjeri land, always was, always will be Aboriginal land.

• 42:47Speaker 00

  Hello, everyone listening, it's Mish and Zara.

• 42:51Speaker 01

  You didn't want, you could have said my name for me. Hi, it's Zara and Michelle.

• 42:55Speaker 00

  And yep, that we are us.

• 42:57Speaker 01

  And we are us and we are here to tell you about something very brand new and very exciting over on Stylish.

• 43:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, if you are not a regular listener, Stylish is the modern magazine that lives in all the places you do. So we've got the podcast, we've got the newsletter, we've got this thriving social community and events. We also now, Zara, have a shopping destination.

• 43:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, we are launching a shopping website. That's right. Our brand new, highly anticipated Stylish website is now live. You can shop all our recommendations, our tips and tricks in one place. We have been working on this for how long? Long time.

• 43:30Speaker 00

  Oh, I think we started talking about this at the beginning of the year. For instance, if you have been looking at some shameless podcast recordings and thinking to yourself, where did the girls get those tops from? There is now a piece live on the website, breaking down some of our favourite cute recording tops of the year. To check that out, go to style-ish, so style-ish.com.au and check it out. Woohoo. Bye.