Riz Ahmed: Dealing with grief, Tom Cruise & trying stand-up comedy

Is Riz Ahmed about to become a stand-up? This week, Romesh is joined by Oscar and Emmy-winning actor, rapper and writer Riz Ahmed. Romesh surprises him with a very special gift, and the two get into what it takes to create something as personal as Bait, the series Riz has spent a decade getting made. They talk about code-switching, finding the space to be yourself, and why it’s so hard to enjoy success when you’re in the middle of it. Riz also opens up about his dad, and what Tom Cruise had to say about his mum at the royal premiere of Digger. Plus, there’s a lot of hip hop talk (Biggie or Tupac?), a game of Misquoted, and a closing story that’s far darker than anyone expected. A Ranga Bee Production. Chapters: 00:00 Intro02:02 Why Riz changed his name02:34 A gift for Riz05:38 Why taste in stand-up beats ability11:45 Riz on SNL14:17 Riz's attempt at stand-up24:40 Why Riz hates being boxed in26:13 Bait and landing James Bond31:55 Putting your own life on screen38:09 A question from Shanthi39:11 Riz's mum, Tom Cruise and the royal premiere48:50 Losing his dad50:51 What Romesh's dad said after a gig54:59 Biggie or Tupac?1:04:19 Misquoted1:08:24 Riz's dark closing story1:10:59 Outro Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

  One of my most enduring memories of my dad is he went to hospital, he had a heart attack. And we went to see him. And he was laying in the thing and I said, you're right dad. And honestly, he did the loudest fart.

• 0:13Speaker 00

  I've, I've ever heard to this day. Completely unbroken eye contact.

• 0:23Speaker 00

  I thought he was lowering the bed. That's the noise, that was what the noise was like.

• 0:28Speaker 01

  That sounds hydraulic.

• 0:31Speaker 01

  I'm Riz Ahmed, I'm gonna be on the Romesh Rag and Nathan Show.

• 0:44Speaker 01

  Oh, shut up, Romesh.

• 0:47Speaker 00

  My guest today, hell, is from North West London and is now a proper Hollywood big dog.

• 0:54Speaker 00

  He's an Academy Award and Emmy winning actor. Uh, who segues effortlessly between comedy and drama from Four Lines, Rogue One, A Star Wars Story and Bait to The Night Of, Mogul Mogly and Sound of Metal. He's brought us everything from humour and swagger to visceral intensity. He's also a rapper known as Riz MC, who has released two soul albums and is a member of hip hop group, The Sweatshop Boys. And he's currently starring alongside Tom Cruise in the satirical comedy Digger. It's the insanely talented, the peerless, the unmatched, the undeniable, the straight up sick, legendary, nobody fucks with this guy. Fuck with him at your peril. He's the Don, the Don Dada, Mr Dick Swing Low. Riz Ahmed, everybody.

• 1:42Speaker 00

  What do you think?

• 1:43Speaker 01

  Um, it's not Riz MC anymore.

• 1:44Speaker 00

  Whoa, is it not?

• 1:45Speaker 01

  It's the only bit of feedback I have, like a, like a South Asian dad. Yeah, you messed this up. No, thank you, that was, that was amazing. Can I record that?

• 1:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:55Speaker 01

  Or there's gonna be a recording of this now.

• 1:57Speaker 00

  We're recording actually, we're hoping to put it out, Riz.

• 1:58Speaker 01

  In the morning when I wake up to get myself out of bed, when I'm weeping into my pillow. Oh yeah, it's amazing. No, I changed my name from Riz MC, because it sounded like, uh, sounded like what someone, um, who's 12 years old would have named themselves in the 90s, which is what it was.

• 2:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, well.

• 2:12Speaker 01

  It's now just my name, Riz Ahmed.

• 2:13Speaker 00

  Okay, because, because.

• 2:15Speaker 01

  It, it kinda, kinda ages you a little bit.

• 2:18Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 2:18Speaker 01

  You call yourself Riz MC.

• 2:19Speaker 00

  Listen, you're talking to, you're talking to Wrangler the lazy heart assassin. I know exactly what you mean.

• 2:26Speaker 01

  There's not a great track record of people changing their names, is it? It's like Kanye.

• 2:32Speaker 00

  Look, listen, in, in.

• 2:34Speaker 01

  It's only people who change their name.

• 2:36Speaker 00

  There's something, there's something.

• 2:38Speaker 01

  Swerving something.

• 2:39Speaker 00

  There's something about changing your name that makes you wanna buy lube. I, I, I don't know what it is. Now, look, it's very difficult to think of a gift for Riz Ahmed, but.

• 2:50Speaker 01

  Why give me a gift?

• 2:51Speaker 00

  We've got you something quite special. It's actually a voucher, but have a look.

• 2:56Speaker 01

  Wow, thank you very much. This is so kind of you, man.

• 2:59Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 2:59Speaker 01

  Appreciate it.

• 3:02Speaker 00

  What do you hope the voucher's for? Just, just speak with your gut. M and S?

• 3:07Speaker 01

  Maybe like.

• 3:07Speaker 00

  Waitrose?

• 3:08Speaker 01

  One of those salons where you get like, they do threading on your eyebrows. Something like that, something really niche.

• 3:14Speaker 00

  It's not that unfortunately.

• 3:15Speaker 01

  That I don't want. Um, all right, wow, okay. Snoop Clog, I like it.

• 3:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:21Speaker 01

  I like it already, so. Wit card.

• 3:23Speaker 00

  Good, great.

• 3:26Speaker 01

  Type five. Wow.

• 3:30Speaker 00

  So this voucher entitles you to do a five minute set before one of my shows.

• 3:36Speaker 01

  Phew.

• 3:37Speaker 00

  Now, what's your first instant, immediate reaction?

• 3:43Speaker 01

  It's like, have you seen that film Obsession?

• 3:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:46Speaker 01

  You can like, you wish for something and you get it and then everything fucks up really badly. It's like, are you, this is a cautionary tale, be careful of what you wish for.

• 3:56Speaker 00

  Well, the reason that we got you that is first of all, that, that voucher is.

• 4:00Speaker 01

  Because it is my dream to one day do stand up comedy.

• 4:03Speaker 00

  It's a real voucher.

• 4:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:04Speaker 00

  So you, I, I, that's not just.

• 4:05Speaker 01

  Should I do it?

• 4:06Speaker 00

  You, mate.

• 4:07Speaker 01

  At some point, I mean, there's no expiration date on it.

• 4:10Speaker 00

  No, but.

• 4:10Speaker 01

  We'll wait for the acting to go properly downhill, you know? It'll feel like, uh.

• 4:16Speaker 00

  Then you'll be fighting me, I'll go, Rom, Rom, Rom, do you remember a few years ago, before it got cancelled, you gave me that voucher?

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• 5:22Speaker 01

  Bro, do you remember before I changed my name?

• 5:24Speaker 00

  You know, before that stuff came out?

• 5:26Speaker 01

  Before all the lube?

• 5:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 5:28Speaker 00

  Before I combined Diddy and Y.

• 5:31Speaker 01

  Listen, um, I really appreciate it. I'm, I'm, um, I'm sweating, I'm, uh, excited.

• 5:38Speaker 00

  The idea of it makes you nervous?

• 5:39Speaker 01

  It does, yeah. I mean, I think that I, I'm a, I'm a, I would like to do stand up in the same way that you would like to play for Arsenal. Do you know what I mean? It's like, kinda, you're just a fan and you just watch so much of it.

• 5:53Speaker 00

  I'm quite insulting about my football ability, if you don't mind me saying. You've got no fucking idea what skills I've got.

• 5:58Speaker 01

  I wanted to put you in misery. And just kind of, um, I just watch it so much and I'm just such a fan that I'm like, well, maybe I could have a, you know? You know how people start thinking, maybe I should manage a leadership team? It's that kind of thing, it's a bad idea, but.

• 6:13Speaker 00

  I, well.

• 6:14Speaker 01

  It's exciting.

• 6:15Speaker 00

  I think the gap between you and doing stand up is, if you don't mind me saying, a lot smaller than the gap between me and playing for Arsenal. Right, because for me, playing for Arsenal is impossible. I now sit opposite you, older than the manager. So that feels unlikely.

• 6:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 6:31Speaker 00

  You doing stand up, you're a naturally funny guy. The, the issue that you do have.

• 6:36Speaker 01

  Here it comes.

• 6:36Speaker 00

  Well, no, the issue that you do have is, we were talking before you came on, your taste in stand up is exquisite. And I don't know if you found this with acting, but when you start doing stand up, your taste is so much better than your ability. So, so, so you, you have this, you have this idea.

• 6:53Speaker 01

  So what ends up happening?

• 6:55Speaker 00

  Well, you, you kind of have this, I have this, and I still have it, to be honest with you, Riz. I'm not as good as I want to be and I'm not as good as I think I should be.

• 7:02Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 7:03Speaker 00

  And you have this idea of what you love about stand up. And the best stand up, and I think, you know, I, I know you're a proper stand up fan, the best stand up makes you look at a thing in a different way. It makes you think about life and you're laughing, but you're thinking about, and then I go, my eyes fucked. You know, and then, you know, that's your opener and then you think, oh, maybe I'm not the guy that I, I wanna be. That, that's the biggest, but what I'm saying to you is, I think you should do it.

• 7:29Speaker 01

  Okay, great, thank you.

• 7:30Speaker 00

  You just did, what we can do is.

• 7:32Speaker 01

  Is it still scary?

• 7:34Speaker 00

  Not, I don't find it scary anymore.

• 7:36Speaker 01

  It's not scary, it's not, it's not exciting, it's not like, cause I guess the thing about it that I think is so exciting is that there's no like, going to the theatre or whatever, where everyone just politely sits through it. If you're shit, you're shit, if you're bombing, you're bombing.

• 7:50Speaker 00

  Correct.

• 7:51Speaker 01

  If you're killing, you're killing, it's raw, it's unfiltered, there's no fourth wall, there's no safety.

• 7:55Speaker 00

  No.

• 7:55Speaker 01

  But that's not exciting for you anymore.

• 7:57Speaker 00

  That is exciting, I mean, that's why I keep doing it. I think that you never complete it. I'm never gonna be as good as I wanna be at stand up and that is what's gonna keep me doing stand up, I think. I think if I, the day that I walk off and go, I'm as good as I wanna be.

• 8:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:11Speaker 00

  I probably have to quit.

• 8:11Speaker 01

  I think that's true for anything though, man. I was, I remember, um, we did this round table thing and Gary Oldman was saying, Gary Oldman, incredible actor, you know? So many people look up to him, myself included. And he goes, you know, every time I'm on a set, I always think, any minute now, I'm gonna get a tap on the shoulder and someone's gonna say, you really shit.

• 8:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:32Speaker 01

  And you need, sorry, we're gonna have to replace you. And he's like, I hope in a way it never goes, cause it keeps me on my toes. So I kinda feel like there's always that thing of chasing. Chasing that moment of like flow when you're just in it and it's just killing. And the thing is, is like, you're not fully in control of that. You can't really bottle it and capture it. And that's what's so, in a way, it's like pressing refresh on Facebook, isn't it? It's like, well, like a slot machine. It's like a completely randomized reward. All you can do is keep showing up. Some days the magic is there, some days it's not.

• 9:04Speaker 00

  Is that the same with acting?

• 9:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think for any kind of performance.

• 9:07Speaker 00

  It's, it's, it's quite annoying that it doesn't proportionately reward you for the time that you spend working on it. And what I mean by that is.

• 9:14Speaker 01

  Do you think?

• 9:15Speaker 00

  Well, I feel like sometimes I, I could have an idea for a, a stand up idea. And I work on it for ages and ages and ages and I'm tweaking it and thinking about it and da, da, da.

• 9:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:26Speaker 00

  And I try it on stage and it never quite hits. And then another day I could be talking to you and something will pop into my head. And then I go and do it on stage that night and it's fully formed and ready to go.

• 9:36Speaker 01

  But do you think you have to show up those nine times?

• 9:39Speaker 00

  I, that's the.

• 9:40Speaker 01

  For the 10th time for Lightning to strike.

• 9:42Speaker 00

  I think so, I think so.

• 9:42Speaker 01

  You know, if you just turned up 10% of the time, you probably have 10% of the ideas.

• 9:47Speaker 00

  What I can say is many people have tapped me on the shoulder and said, you're shit. But the, the good news is you can still, you can keep going.

• 9:54Speaker 01

  All right, I'll do it. I'll take you up on it, man.

• 9:55Speaker 00

  Are you serious?

• 9:56Speaker 01

  Well, maybe.

• 9:58Speaker 00

  Oh, come on, man. Can you snip the bit where he goes, yeah, well, maybe?

• 10:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:02Speaker 00

  No, but I, I would help.

• 10:04Speaker 01

  I'm very flaky, but I'm an actor. It's like.

• 10:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's true.

• 10:06Speaker 01

  Anything's possible.

• 10:07Speaker 00

  Here's the voucher, here's what the voucher doesn't say, though. I'll help you with the five.

• 10:11Speaker 01

  Will you really?

• 10:12Speaker 00

  Yeah. We can, we can, we can shoot the shit, figure it out, work out what the set's gonna be.

• 10:17Speaker 01

  God, this is amazing.

• 10:19Speaker 00

  And then we'll do, and then you'll do it.

• 10:20Speaker 01

  This is like Jim Will Fix, what, do you know?

• 10:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:25Speaker 00

  I, I am wearing a tracksuit, to be fair. I just, I just need.

• 10:28Speaker 01

  I'm suddenly feeling very uncomfortable about this.

• 10:32Speaker 00

  What happens when you change your name? Is you start, you start making non-stokes five minutes into the podcast.

• 10:40Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 10:40Speaker 00

  But you have got comedy chops, haven't you?

• 10:42Speaker 01

  You know, I don't know. I'm not sure about that. It's a lot of pressure.

• 10:44Speaker 00

  Well, you're a funny guy.

• 10:45Speaker 01

  Well, let me tell you something. I, I, we were talking about this before, we brought a mutual friend who's a stand up comedian. Gus.

• 10:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:52Speaker 01

  Can't.

• 10:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:53Speaker 01

  And he basically does.

• 10:54Speaker 00

  Funny bones.

• 10:55Speaker 01

  Yes, he does crowd work.

• 10:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:57Speaker 01

  Right? And so I sometimes think like, is that, would you recommend to me? As a fledgling stand up comedian now, that I officially am.

• 11:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:06Speaker 01

  Just go out there and just try and do crowd work? Or like, no, definitely don't do that. As in, put it like this, do you think they're both skills that you just have to get good out of over time? Or is one harder than the other or?

• 11:17Speaker 00

  I don't think one's harder than the other. I, I think that some people can't do, can't do both of them. And I think crowd work is, gets, definitely gets better with practice.

• 11:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:30Speaker 00

  Uh, what you basically have to do with crowd work is not shit yourself, essentially. Is, is, is be confident enough in your abilities. If you're having a conversation with somebody, funny will come, right? You've got to go, I back myself enough.

• 11:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:43Speaker 00

  That I can have this chat with this person and my mind, my brain will give me funny.

• 11:47Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 11:48Speaker 00

  And that takes a bit of practice. What I would say to you is, if you're starting out doing stand up, which you are. You, there are so many, there are so many uncontrollables. You need to have as many controllables as you possibly can. Crowd work is you're adding an uncontrollable needlessly. So if you, if you prepare a set, then you go, whatever happens, I'm doing this five minutes, right? And I'm not relying on this person, I don't know, this person having a funny job in order for me to springboard this. So my advice would be, don't do crowd work when you open for me.

• 12:23Speaker 00

  It's not an instruction.

• 12:24Speaker 01

  I'm gonna make you look really good, though.

• 12:25Speaker 00

  It's not an instruction. Imagine if you fucking ripped the ass out of it and then I'm like, what the fuck? I've got to go and do my shit show after it turns out Riz is even better at stand up than he is at acting.

• 12:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's inspiring. I'd like to make you look bad if I can.

• 12:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, I've been doing it for years, mate. Have you seen Judge Romesh? Um, were you, um, but you've got comedy chops and also congrats on your SNL appearance. You were great.

• 12:49Speaker 01

  Thanks, man.

• 12:50Speaker 00

  You were great on that.

• 12:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was fun. That was fun. They had one sketch that did really well and we were talking about this, it was Traitors.

• 12:56Speaker 00

  Yes, the lobster.

• 12:57Speaker 01

  The crab man.

• 12:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, crab, was it crab or lobster?

• 12:59Speaker 01

  Great, big crab man.

• 13:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, crab's more relatable than lobster, isn't it?

• 13:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think so.

• 13:03Speaker 00

  Um, that sketch is so funny.

• 13:05Speaker 01

  That was funny, yeah.

• 13:06Speaker 00

  Because I'll tell you what other sketch I loved.

• 13:08Speaker 01

  Tell me.

• 13:08Speaker 00

  The Operation sketch.

• 13:10Speaker 01

  Operation, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 13:11Speaker 00

  I mean, that was, that was like a proper.

• 13:13Speaker 01

  It was a short film.

• 13:14Speaker 00

  It was dark and funny.

• 13:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:16Speaker 00

  A lot of reviews call me that.

• 13:21Speaker 01

  There's, um, I tell you what, like, that experience of doing SNL. Reminds me so much of like doing the school play.

• 13:30Speaker 00

  Right.

• 13:30Speaker 01

  You know, which is why we kind of all get into this. I think a lot of actors, it's that kind of camaraderie of like, we're all in it together against the odds. It's gonna be a show. We've got to somehow make it work. And it's literally that, you know, you come in on the Monday or whatever, or on the Tuesday, I think.

• 13:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:46Speaker 01

  And they're like, people just pitch you 50 sketches. And the ones you like, they then pitch you the scripts and then you just kind of like pull it out your ass.

• 13:58Speaker 00

  Do you have that level of ownership over what happens? So you're saying what are you like?

• 14:01Speaker 01

  Well, you're kind of saying like, not into that, I'm into that, I'm into that. And then the producer, um, and that team kind of also go, look. We think this would be good. What do you think? And then you kind of, you, you kind of discuss it a little bit and there's a bit of back and forth and is that too surreal? Well, the writers really love that, but will the audiences understand that? Okay, let's do that because I think Riz can actually do that. He definitely can't do that other thing, do you know what I mean?

• 14:25Speaker 00

  They don't say that in front of you, do they?

• 14:26Speaker 01

  They literally do.

• 14:27Speaker 00

  Jesus.

• 14:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. And, um.

• 14:30Speaker 00

  If this team started telling me what they think I can't do, they'd be fucking gone. Let me be clear on that.

• 14:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. Uh, so with this podcast.

• 14:40Speaker 01

  Someone had an honest conversation with Romesh. About flagrant strength.

• 14:46Speaker 00

  I've heard a rumor that somebody, somebody talked honestly to Romesh about his limitations. What the fuck were you thinking?

• 14:54Speaker 01

  Um, so, yeah, like, it's, it's, it's a lot of fun. And I really enjoyed kind of with the monologue and stuff, like, it's such an amazing team of writers there. And it's, it's a kind, in a way, it's a version of exactly what you said. You kind of, someone puts together a type five with you.

• 15:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 15:10Speaker 01

  And they, they're writing it and you're bouncing ideas and that kind of stuff. So a very kind of like a soft launch.

• 15:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:16Speaker 01

  For my stand up career.

• 15:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, cause I thought I was gonna watch you do stand up. Cause Gus did a, I think it was the fundraiser.

• 15:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:24Speaker 00

  And you were on.

• 15:26Speaker 01

  It was back in the day. This was. It was a few years ago, man.

• 15:28Speaker 00

  It was a few years ago. And I thought Riz is gonna do stand up, but you didn't do stand up.

• 15:33Speaker 01

  I thought I was doing stand up.

• 15:35Speaker 00

  No, you didn't.

• 15:36Speaker 01

  I thought I was doing stand up. I thought I did do stand up. What a fucking, yeah. I distinctly thinking, remember thinking, this is my chance. Well, what I did was this, something which was a kind of little bit of a, um, a hard fast thing, which I used to do. Is when I'd be performing, um, at clubs, back, this is back in Riz MC days. What I would do is I'd have a 25 minute set and I'd spend more than half of it telling jokes. So I'd kind of tell jokes and, you know, in a way to set up the track.

• 16:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:10Speaker 01

  And I would ramble so much. You know who I saw do this recently? Do you know Mustafa the poet?

• 16:15Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 16:15Speaker 01

  He's an amazing artist, love him. He's an amazing songwriter, artist, human being. I saw him at the Barbican and I'd say about 60% of the set was him telling stories and busting jokes in between.

• 16:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:28Speaker 01

  And, uh, and so he's kind of got this thing, Mostef has this thing as well, where he's like, I'm a closet stand up, I just wanna. So I would use the set as an excuse to tell jokes. And cause they're not expecting it, it kind of kills. They're expecting you to be like a serious rapper. And so it works. So when I did the fundraiser for Gus, I came out. I remember people being, maybe it was just nervous laughter at how bad it was. But they were kind of like, were expecting to do spoken word. I was just started telling stories and cracking some jokes.

• 16:56Speaker 00

  You were being funny, but you weren't doing stand up.

• 16:58Speaker 01

  But then, you're right, yeah.

• 16:59Speaker 00

  It wasn't stand up, stand up. It was not like what you're gonna do at the O2.

• 17:02Speaker 01

  Gamekeeper.

• 17:03Speaker 00

  You know?

• 17:04Speaker 01

  Um, but I think that that, um, is very different when people are like expecting you to make them laugh, right? So that's the added pressure of like, oh, come on then, what have you got here? As opposed to, I'm gonna come out and do spoken word. No, I'm gonna talk about.

• 17:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 17:19Speaker 01

  You know?

• 17:19Speaker 00

  That's why some.

• 17:20Speaker 01

  Dysfunctional family or whatever. That's a kind of easy win.

• 17:23Speaker 00

  You have talked about having to code switch and, you know, the cult, you know, growing up and the, the way you have to behave in different environments. You're so established now and you're so revered and respected. Do you feel like you've moved beyond that now or do you still feel like you have to do the dance a little bit?

• 17:41Speaker 01

  You know, I think that some level of kind of code switching kind of probably. Happens without thinking about it.

• 17:50Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 17:51Speaker 01

  Not just for me, but I think probably for a lot of us, right?

• 17:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, definitely.

• 17:54Speaker 01

  Although I've seen you, you're pretty much the same around your mum as you are on the podcast.

• 18:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's cool.

• 18:01Speaker 01

  Which is.

• 18:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:02Speaker 01

  Speaks to your limitations again.

• 18:06Speaker 01

  Most people who have a kind of range to their personality.

• 18:10Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 18:11Speaker 01

  No, um, but I, I do think that there's a, there's a kind of natural. Kind of thing like where, you know, this is who you are at home and this is, and maybe that's kind of exacerbated a little bit for me. Um, because those worlds that I inhabited growing up were really different from each other. So I think in some weird way, it's just kind of maybe part of who I am a little bit. Um, I, I would like to think it's become less. I would like to think that I'm kind of like, this, I've, I've committed. I've decided this is who I am.

• 18:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:40Speaker 01

  On some level.

• 18:41Speaker 00

  I, I think it's tr, I, I sometimes feel ashamed of what my attitude was towards it when I was growing up. To be, to be completely honest with you. Because I think when you're a kid and, you know, I was subjected to, you know, obviously we all get racism when we're growing up and stuff like that. Still get it now. But when I was a kid, I, your desire is to fit in and to be the same as everyone around you, right? Uh, uh, and to be the same and to, to, to, to, to fit in with the majority, I guess. And so then whenever your culture displays a difference, you're, you become, I remember young and feeling like, feeling nervous about that.

• 19:23Speaker 00

  Whereas now, I feel like it's, it's a bonus. It's an amazing thing and I'm, and I'm really happy about it. But that, I've, I've felt, I sometimes think about what my attitude towards it was when I was younger.

• 19:35Speaker 01

  You were hardcore racist.

• 19:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, I just sort of, you know, I, I used to, I used to shout.

• 19:39Speaker 01

  Get them!

• 19:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, I used to go home and go, when the fuck are you going back? You know, and they couldn't understand it. And they said, but were your mum and dad? I said, I don't want you here.

• 19:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:50Speaker 00

  You know? You're leeches.

• 19:53Speaker 01

  You're taking my job.

• 19:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

• 19:57Speaker 00

  But you know, I mean, I, I, what I mean is like the, you know, I don't know. Going to, going to school smelling of the food from home, all, all those kind of things, you know?

• 20:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. It's interesting, you know, I.

• 20:12Speaker 01

  For whatever reason, I totally understand that response as well. Where did you grow up?

• 20:17Speaker 00

  In Crawley.

• 20:18Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 20:18Speaker 00

  So right near the airport. So it was easy to send them back.

• 20:22Speaker 01

  There's no excuse really, what they.

• 20:24Speaker 00

  Could literally, we're underneath the flight path.

• 20:25Speaker 01

  Can I just pause and say, before you said people of colour, don't you think that's a slightly hilarious term?

• 20:29Speaker 00

  It's insane. It's insane.

• 20:32Speaker 01

  It sounds like a description for like, like Oompa Loompas that draw rainbows in the sky.

• 20:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, Oompa Loompas are people of colour. That, I think that's a fit.

• 20:41Speaker 01

  People of colour. It sounded like someone was trying to come up with something nice to say and they ran out of ideas halfway through.

• 20:47Speaker 00

  People, they're people. And there's a colour. People of colour?

• 20:51Speaker 01

  You know, people, not coloured people, but there are colours involved.

• 20:57Speaker 00

  People with, people with colour.

• 20:59Speaker 01

  And also, they are people. It's important we call them people, in case, in case anyone tries to suggest they're not.

• 21:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, listen, Andy, Andy, you keep saying the coloureds. That's not, that's not gonna work.

• 21:11Speaker 01

  Andy, stop saying that, yeah. It feels like a kind of, um, yeah, they were workshopping an idea and then the time ran out.

• 21:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:20Speaker 01

  On it, so they had to just present it. It doesn't really make any sense. Should we coin another term?

• 21:27Speaker 00

  Go on. Is there a better one? Is there, but is there a better one?

• 21:31Speaker 01

  I don't know if there is. I mean, people started saying BIPOC.

• 21:35Speaker 00

  BIPOC. People? We could just leave it there.

• 21:38Speaker 01

  BIPOC sounds like a superhero.

• 21:40Speaker 00

  I know, it's insane. Have you heard, oh my god, he, she, his, his daughter's going out with a BIPOC. There goes the neighbourhood.

• 21:47Speaker 01

  It sounds like a future where AI grows limbs.

• 21:51Speaker 00

  Fucking get these BIPOCs out!

• 21:52Speaker 01

  BIPOCs are humans.

• 21:55Speaker 00

  Fuck, you know, you can't, you can't walk down my street without seeing a lot of BIPOCs.

• 22:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:01Speaker 00

  It's an epidemic of BIPOCs.

• 22:02Speaker 01

  I know. We need to come up with something better. Um, what are we talking about again? Crawley, your family, they wouldn't leave. Yeah, I, I understand that response. For whatever reason, I think because the neighbourhood I grew up in.

• 22:13Speaker 00

  A bit more diverse.

• 22:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe the, the, maybe the one you grew up in. I felt like I had a strong sense of, of that and where I was from. And so it kind of became, i- i- in a way, still a kind of problem, but an opposite kind of problem where I defined myself in, like, the struggle.

• 22:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:33Speaker 01

  You know, in opposite defiance. Like, this is who we, and, and that actually is its own issue because, and I realised this in a way after becoming a dad, where it's like, I realised for a lot of my adult life, I defined myself in opposition to this thing.

• 22:50Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 22:51Speaker 01

  In opposition to hate, in opposition to people who said, you know, um, you, you're not a person, you don't matter, or whatever that is. So, i- in a way, that can just be its own kind of cage. And I was like, well, how can I just live in the, in the joy? Do you know what I mean? Rather than living in a struggle, defining yourself purely by.

• 23:11Speaker 00

  To constantly think you're pushing against something is exhausting.

• 23:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, if you're living a life in response to a question someone else has asked, you're not really setting the terms of your own existence.

• 23:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:20Speaker 01

  And I realised that a li- a little bit. But yeah, but for whatever reason, I had that opposite thing, rather than to try and like camouflage

• 23:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:27Speaker 01

  The kind of like.

• 23:28Speaker 00

  You were, the other way.

• 23:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly, exactly. And then weird things start happening, because I went to Oxford and I like, I'd meet people who'd go, oh, hello, how you do? And then I'd find myself just kind of going further dealing with like, wag one colour.

• 23:47Speaker 01

  I'm like sat in a tutorial. Is that Oxford John is saying, have you written the essay? Bled. Don't try and chat to man about no, it's like, uh, uh, he's like, are you okay? He's like, I don't know fam.

• 24:02Speaker 01

  It's just happening right now. It feels like a safe space.

• 24:08Speaker 01

  I think you should leave. Thank you. It was just very weird.

• 24:13Speaker 00

  That's so funny.

• 24:13Speaker 01

  Do you know what I mean? You just start kind of playing into who you think people, or even then the opp- opposite thing would, and then I realised I'm doing that and someone would kind of like, you know, posh white dude, I used to run club nights, so people would be like, coming like, hey, bruh, I'd like to DJ as well, like fam. You know, I'd like to spin drum and bass, lad. And then I'd be, and then I'd go like, well, that would be delightful. What would you, who Marcus Intellects, who are, who are you a fan of? And, and it'd just be a weird kind of thing where I'm like, who, I don't know. I'm just kind of like trying out, um, yeah, these, these different versions of who I am. And I, and I guess like, that confusion is part of where acting came from.

• 24:55Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? Um, maybe the security of like, oh, I'm in this character, I'm this, I'm this thing. And, and also a place where you can try out these different kind of flavours or versions of, of who you are. And I think we do all have them. Um, yeah.

• 25:10Speaker 00

  No, I mean, it's a really interesting take. And I think what you've said just then, I think you can definitely see that in your career and the way that you've approached stuff and, you know, your acting and your music, I, I, I think we can see that. And the way you carry yourself, you have that, you know, you, you have that.

• 25:24Speaker 01

  All over the place.

• 25:25Speaker 00

  All, all over, all, no, not all over the, what I mean is.

• 25:29Speaker 01

  Confused.

• 25:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, confused. Just like, what the fuck are you? No, no, what I mean is, like, pick a lane, man. Do you know what I mean? No, what I mean is, you are, you have that, not that you're fighting something, but you have, uh, your MO is to put that message across, you know, and, and.

• 25:50Speaker 01

  To try and create a bit more space. I think like, I think if anything now, my instinct is to try and like, find where the parameters or the boundaries are and just try and push them or nudge them a little bit and just try and see what's outside of them. Because yeah, yeah, maybe on some level, I spent a lot of my life not deciding or knowing exactly where I belong or who I am, but I, I was still sure that one thing I needed was space.

• 26:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:15Speaker 01

  I wanted to have space to be able to be different things and not be boxed in in a way. It's like,

• 26:22Speaker 01

  yeah, I think that's, that's the kind of thing that I, I think animates a lot of my work and my life, is trying to

• 26:29Speaker 01

  just not be boxed in, you know, just try and like, to try and break down some categories. And so, you know, someone was asking me that, you know, what kind of projects would you like to do? What would you like? And I was, I had to kind of think about this. And, um, I think I like things that sit on a bit of a, um, a bit of a fault line. You know, things that are hard to put in a category. So something like Four Lions.

• 26:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:53Speaker 01

  It's funny. It's quite dark. And you're not sure if you should be laughing.

• 26:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:59Speaker 01

  And I think I really like that. Similarly with Nightcrawler. Again, it's kind of like horrific, but also kind of absurd. Iger as well. It's kind of like, slaps you in the face with something in quite a creative way, but it's also, yeah, quite surreal. And, and so I really like things that are walking a bit of a tightrope.

• 27:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:17Speaker 01

  Between two identities, if, if, if, you know what I mean, that are like, hard to categorise.

• 27:22Speaker 00

  Well, with that in mind, let's talk about Bait, which feels like almost the ultimate coming together of all of that stuff, right? Um, first of all, congratulations. It's such a great show. It's, when, when you watch it, you sort of think, how did you make this? What I mean by that is, all the Bond stuff and all of that, was that hard to make happen initially?

• 27:42Speaker 01

  It was, it was hard, yeah. So, the original seed of the idea did not include James Bond in it.

• 27:48Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 27:48Speaker 01

  For people who don't know the show, it's about an out of work actor who lands an audition to be the next James Bond. And when word gets out he's auditioning, people have some very strong opinions on it. He starts kind of spiralling, right? And, um, the initial idea was just kind of, I had about 10 years of just kind of like notes, like anecdotes, stories, experiences of just kind of, of just, just life, of life of kind of like, being from Wembley, having the family that you do, and, and, but then there'd been this perception of you as this other thing, you know, and how confusing and comedic that could be. So it just came from a very personal place. A lot of the stuff you see in the show is from my own life, but we needed to find a place to put it all.

• 28:34Speaker 01

  And so we realised, okay, if this is a character who wants to not be himself, who wants to escape who he is, what would he want to be? He'd want to be the pinnacle of cinematic achievement, you know, um, darling of the British establishment, ultimate alpha male, that's James Bond.

• 28:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:52Speaker 01

  So we're like, amazing.

• 28:54Speaker 00

  So that came later. Basically, James Bond signified what, what is the ultimate aspiration for somebody.

• 29:00Speaker 01

  Exactly. And on some level, we all want to be James Bond. We want to be decisive, desirable, successful, superhuman, right? And this is about a guy who, who doesn't really love who he is, who's got a real deficit of self-love. And so.

• 29:13Speaker 00

  And is that, does that come from your experiences?

• 29:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. I think, I think I realised on some level, I, I think we all struggle with self-love, not to take it away from myself, but the society, the culture we live in is, makes you, is designed to make you feel like you're not good enough.

• 29:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:28Speaker 01

  If you get these trainers, you'll be better. If you get this haircut, you'll be better. But if you get this Brazilian butt lift, or whatever it is, you know.

• 29:35Speaker 00

  Guilty, guilty, guilty.

• 29:37Speaker 01

  And, um, so whatever it is, is like, you're not good enough, you've got to be better. So it feeds this deficit of self-love. And we all end up looking for love in the wrong places. And the show is about that. When you try and people please, you know, um, to an extent where you kind of lose who you are. And so the show came from this place of, you know what, life feels like one big audition for all of us.

• 29:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:00Speaker 01

  And, and so James Bond came later as a way to like, bring all the themes together. But yeah, we wrote all these scripts and we were quite far down the line. We still didn't have any permission to, to use it. We're like, what are you doing? He's like, at some point, you've got to go and chat to them, man. And Amazon did not control the creative rights at the time.

• 30:18Speaker 00

  Right.

• 30:19Speaker 01

  And they were like, don't look at us. Barbara Broccoli is running the show. Spoke to my agent, he was like, don't look at me.

• 30:26Speaker 01

  And so I had to go take Barbara Broccoli, um, out. We had a little brunch in LA. And I explained it to her. And I said, look, Bond is really a symbol. It's a symbol of achievement, success and belonging that this character is searching for. It's really about family. It's really about self-love. And to her credit, she read it, she got it, and she, she said, you know, I've never let anyone do anything like this before, but I'm into it.

• 30:51Speaker 00

  When you did the, is it brunch she took her for? Like, when you were doing that, wasn't your arse going? Because you're thinking the whole, we've put, we've built this into the show. Like, this has got to go really well.

• 31:00Speaker 01

  It was, man. Yeah.

• 31:02Speaker 00

  I can't even imagine.

• 31:03Speaker 01

  It was quite stressful.

• 31:05Speaker 00

  And you've got to not look too thirsty either, right?

• 31:09Speaker 01

  Listen, if we don't, if you don't go for this, we're gonna.

• 31:13Speaker 00

  We're fucked.

• 31:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. Uh, how do you play sad? I just tried to be really honest, you know. I, I think the show taught me a lot about, well, something actually I had to heard Stephen Graham talking about a lot, who's an absolute ledge who I love, um, on your podcast, which is vulnerability. You know, actually you can't.

• 31:33Speaker 01

  You can't break through to another level creatively or as a person unless you're willing to be vulnerable. So I was just really honest with her. I was like, look, man, this is so personal to me. You know, the house, we're gonna shoot it in, it's gonna be a rebuild of the exact house I've grown up in, you know.

• 31:52Speaker 01

  So, you know, so many things in the show are drawn directly from my life. I'm really putting myself out there because it's meaningful to me. And I think she responded to that. And I can tell you, scene after scene, things in the show, you know, they literally happen to me, you know.

• 32:08Speaker 00

  You know, you mentioned the people pleaser side of it because, you know, one of the things is, and I'm sure you've had this, is that when you're coming up as a BIPOC, you are, you are a representative, right? And, and, and people imprint their expectations. You know, you're supposed to be representing for your people, I guess, is the best way. And if somebody doesn't do that, they can be vilified, right? And I, I understand the motivation behind that. But what, what bait does is it shows, because you, we always love your character, but we see other people respond to him negatively as a direct result of something he's chosen to do. Under the pressures of the moment.

• 32:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's messy. He's very messy.

• 32:51Speaker 00

  He's chosen to go this way and you see what the reaction of the other person is. It's, it's really interesting, that, that side of it. You, you kind of, and when I was, when you, when you watch it, you, you feel like, when you say that you've gone through those things, I can totally get that. To then decide, I'm gonna put that on, I'm gonna write about it, I'm gonna act in it and put it on screen, what the hell was that like? Because that is, that I imagine is difficult.

• 33:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I joke that this was like a more fun way of doing therapy.

• 33:22Speaker 00

  Right.

• 33:23Speaker 01

  But it was, in a way, it was very, very exposing and it felt like the biggest kind of swing and biggest creative risk I could take. I was very paranoid about it backfiring and looking at self mythologizing or indulgent or just crap, you know. And if I'm really honest, I think I sabotaged it for about 10 years. You know, I started scribbling the ideas down in 2016, took me till 2026 to make it. And the patience of my producing partner, Ali Moore, is like monumental, but she just kept gently encouraging me, like, listen, this is, this is the thing you wanna do.

• 33:57Speaker 00

  Yeah. Happy 10 year anniversary of you starting working on this.

• 34:00Speaker 01

  Exactly. At what point are you gonna, and so, um, it did feel like that, but I, I kind of felt like.

• 34:12Speaker 01

  I, I got to a point personally where I needed to find that self-love. I got to a point where I realized I'm in danger of looking for love in all the wrong places. Um, you know, the round of applause, a pat on the back, you know, whatever that is. Um, being in the club, in, as in, in, in the.

• 34:35Speaker 00

  The inner circle.

• 34:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and just like finding little moments where I missed out. That was like, why is landing more than it should? Why do I care about that?

• 34:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:43Speaker 01

  And so I felt like I have to go on that journey. If I'm really honest, it was, that was a big part of it. I was like, I'm hitting a wall in terms of my own growth as a person. And the only way to exercise that feeling is to really put it out there.

• 35:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:00Speaker 01

  And try and take all these experiences and anecdotes of me losing my way, looking for love in all the wrong places, people pleasing, and make sense of it and try and have this character go on a journey. And, and I guess, yeah, it had to be personal in that way because i- if I'm, if I'm telling a story about a character who, um, yeah, who's kind of got, got a look for self-love and, and, and take off the mask.

• 35:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:30Speaker 01

  Then I guess I have to take off the mask in telling the story. And so that's why there's so much stuff in there that's just, you know, directly from my life.

• 35:37Speaker 00

  I, I, I, you know, one thing that somebody says to me with stand-up, and look, you'll discover this when you, when you open for me, but one of the things, one of the bits of advice somebody gave to me is i- if you are embarrassed about sharing this on stage, it's probably a great thing to say.

• 35:51Speaker 01

  That's, that was one of our rules in the writers' room.

• 35:53Speaker 00

  Right, right, right.

• 35:53Speaker 01

  He said it has to be true.

• 35:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:56Speaker 01

  Or have an element of truth in it. Um, it has to be funny and it has to be scary.

• 36:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:06Speaker 01

  For me to share and put out there. And I think that's how you arrive at characters, hopefully that are kind of complex and messy, you know. Because even if you don't like rooting, if you're not like, yes, he's right, it feels real.

• 36:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:20Speaker 01

  It feels honest. You know, I've got my character saying and doing some questionable things.

• 36:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:25Speaker 01

  But hopefully it's honest, you know.

• 36:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So with, with that, with that sort of self-love in mind, how are you able to detach from that now? Like, what I mean is, because I think, without getting, you know, without getting too deep, I think if you can detach yourself from outcomes and you can stop relying on that validation that you're talking about, that's when you start to really, you really find a contentment in what you're doing. Have you, have you found that?

• 36:53Speaker 01

  No.

• 36:55Speaker 00

  I haven't either, man. I'm fucked.

• 36:56Speaker 01

  No. You're asking me if I'm enlightened?

• 37:00Speaker 00

  Yeah. Are you enlightened?

• 37:02Speaker 01

  You just saw them putting him out fucking makeup on me. These, none of these are my clothes. What do you mean, am I enlightened? You're kidding me? I'm gonna be refreshing this just to try and get the view count up as soon as I get home.

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• 38:14Speaker 01

  I don't know if I'm, I haven't locked into that point of view and that way of being 24/7. Of course not. We're human, you know. We live in this world. But I do feel like things go best when I have detached from the outcome.

• 38:28Speaker 00

  Right. Same.

• 38:30Speaker 01

  You know, things go best when it's like, I have to do this for the process. Bait felt like that to me.

• 38:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:36Speaker 01

  It felt like I have to do it. I was answering, asking and answering these questions for myself in real time as I was making it. It was joyful in itself to make it. When I think of Sound of Metal, when we finished it, I said to the director, um, the writer-director, Darius Marder, you know what, I actually, I don't know, busted my ass for like a year learning how to play the drums, learning sign language, doing this whole thing, going on this journey. I actually don't care if anyone sees this because it's been such a nourishing, incredible, life-changing experience.

• 39:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:09Speaker 01

  And I think that when you lose yourself in something, by definition, you're not self-conscious.

• 39:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:15Speaker 01

  Do you know what I mean? Not conscious of how you will be perceived and who you are. And that's flow.

• 39:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:20Speaker 01

  You know?

• 39:20Speaker 00

  I, I, I think, look, I, I think, I personally think you have to be in love with the process and not the results. I- i- is, is the way to look at it. But that's really hard. Do you, do you know what I mean? Like, it's that thing of like going.

• 39:33Speaker 01

  How to dance like no one's watching.

• 39:34Speaker 00

  Exactly. And, and the problem is, is that as soon as, when you're working on anything, I imagine you had this when you were putting bait together, and I have this when I'm putting stand-up together or writing anything, as soon as I start thinking about what an audience member might think of this, or a critic might think of this, I have to stop myself and sort of take a break because I, I.

• 39:55Speaker 01

  It's natural, right? It probably comes up a lot, doesn't it?

• 39:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, it does. But it's a pollutant, I think.

• 40:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I agree.

• 40:01Speaker 00

  Like, that's what I'm gonna do is podcast. I don't give a fuck what you think.

• 40:06Speaker 01

  Clearly.

• 40:09Speaker 00

  No, but that's really interesting. It's really interesting and it's very hard to detach from that. We've got a question for my mother now. She's recorded it.

• 40:15Speaker 01

  Oh wow, no way.

• 40:17Speaker 06

  Hi Riz, this is Shanti, Romesh's mum. How are you? I saw you took your mum to premiere recently and Tom Cruise took a liking to her. I'm quite jealous. Does your mum like showbiz events? And have you had any moment at a showbiz party that you will never forget? Have a blessed week, lots of love. Bye.

• 40:44Speaker 01

  Thank you. Thank you, auntie. I appreciate it. Appreciate the question. Have I kind of, have I blended you in it a little bit now?

• 40:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, I would say it wasn't good. No, I would say.

• 40:58Speaker 01

  This is really not a question for me. This is a passive aggressive comment about your plus ones.

• 41:03Speaker 00

  If you're asking me, do I think you should think about the impact upon your BIPOC brothers and sisters? When you do stuff, yes, I do. Yeah, I do.

• 41:12Speaker 01

  Oh man, yeah, sorry, bro. Well, my mum, yes, my mum came to the Emmys and she came to this premiere of Digger recently. And she enjoyed it, man. She had a good time. She got to meet William and Kate.

• 41:32Speaker 01

  She's a fan of the Royals. And, and yeah, she, she had a nice chat with them. She met Tom Cruise. Tom Cruise, man, is so positive and sweet that it's, as a British person, it's.

• 41:48Speaker 00

  Off putting almost.

• 41:48Speaker 01

  Very uncomfortable.

• 41:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's so nice and positive. It's like.

• 41:53Speaker 00

  I know. What's wrong with you?

• 41:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. But he loved my mum, man. And he was like, I was saying this, I said this the other day, but like, just before we were about to share the film with the whole world, we were in the wings about to go on stage for the royal premiere. The cast, the producers, the team, they're all there. And Tom turns around and he's like, and he was like, he's gonna give a speech and he just goes, Riz, your mum. Love your mum. Fantastic. Beautiful, inside and out. And we were like, okay. And he was like, okay. And then we're just gonna go and share the film with everyone. So it's just.

• 42:28Speaker 00

  That is wild. That is wild.

• 42:31Speaker 01

  Before sharing the film with the world. I'm not sure how the director felt about that. So what about the nine years I've spent on this project? She's just come along and upstaged the whole team. So, so yeah, like, she, she leaves a good impression. She's great, man. She's fun. She's funny. She started gatekeeping me a little bit at the Emmys.

• 42:52Speaker 00

  In what way?

• 42:52Speaker 01

  Well, people wanted pictures and she was like, not her. She was like, not this guy. She was like, can't get a picture with this one. I was like, why? He goes like, he's already had one. I was like.

• 43:00Speaker 00

  Wow, that's actually quite useful.

• 43:02Speaker 01

  She was like my bouncer. I was like, oh, I don't think they have.

• 43:05Speaker 00

  My mum's the opposite of a gatekeeper.

• 43:07Speaker 01

  She's got power hungry.

• 43:08Speaker 00

  My mum's the opposite of a gatekeeper. She's handing out free tea. Oh, I know. You know Romesh? Yeah, he's on tour. Oh, no, no, no, don't pay, don't pay.

• 43:15Speaker 01

  Don't pay.

• 43:16Speaker 00

  Just constant, constant.

• 43:18Speaker 01

  Your guest list is crazy.

• 43:20Speaker 00

  Arranges meets and greets, just randomly. Rami, do you mind seeing, do you mind seeing this family after the show? I said, who are they? I met them in a park and I said, you must, you must meet my son.

• 43:35Speaker 01

  Actually, you know what? She does that as well. She's all over the place. She invites all these randoms and she's like, can I have a photo?

• 43:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, no, she's great, man. She's, she's actually like a lot of the kind of highly,

• 43:53Speaker 01

  acerbic kind of humour.

• 43:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:57Speaker 01

  In bait.

• 43:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:58Speaker 01

  It's kind of hers. It's kind of like her and my dad. I realise now watching it, it's like so much of the comedy and the vibe of the show comes from that and it's from them. It's their vibe as well. Like my mum would always have the most creative threats to us. You know, it's like, I'm gonna chop you up into little pieces and I'm gonna feed you to the birds.

• 44:17Speaker 00

  Nice.

• 44:18Speaker 01

  Do your homework.

• 44:19Speaker 00

  My mum's catchphrase was, you'll be, you'll be walking around without your head. She said that to us so much.

• 44:27Speaker 01

  That is cold. Mic drop.

• 44:29Speaker 00

  Um, you obviously, look, Riz, there's no getting around it. You're a film star, okay? You're a proper, you're an A-lister.

• 44:37Speaker 01

  You reckon?

• 44:37Speaker 00

  Right? Of course you are. And, and I don't, look, it's so exciting, it's so exciting, man, that you're an A. Like, for all the BIPOCs, like, like.

• 44:47Speaker 01

  What about for the Bames?

• 44:49Speaker 00

  For all the Bames, the Bames, the BIPOCs, the, everybody, all the Bames, man, the Bames. The Bames are fucking buzzing. It's exciting. For you.

• 44:59Speaker 01

  What about the non-Bames? You guys, how are you feeling about it?

• 45:01Speaker 00

  They don't give a shit, mate. They don't give a shit.

• 45:04Speaker 01

  He had to brief them on who I was and they were here.

• 45:06Speaker 00

  Genuinely.

• 45:07Speaker 01

  You've got one of your cousins in.

• 45:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's good, it's good to mix up the guests a bit. That's what they said. They don't give a fuck.

• 45:15Speaker 00

  You know, you know what they said? You know what category you came under? Box ticker. That's, that's.

• 45:22Speaker 00

  They were like, do you know what? Let's get Riz on.

• 45:24Speaker 01

  The boxpox.

• 45:25Speaker 00

  And then we, yeah.

• 45:27Speaker 00

  Let's get Riz on and we can get back to the white guys that we know and love.

• 45:30Speaker 01

  You've got no idea, you've got no clue what happened. You've got no. You seem really nice.

• 45:37Speaker 01

  Honestly, this whole time, he's been trying to avoid eye contact with me, like, I hope these guys expect me to see any of his films. Are these films? Four Lions, that's a typo. That's a football team.

• 45:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. Okay, thank you. What was, what was the, what were you trying to say?

• 45:54Speaker 00

  Um, does it feel normal to you? Because, look, I mean, you're in, you just talked about being in a film with Tom Cruise. You're in Digger and, and that's huge. Does it, but you're, I don't think it should feel huge to you. You're in and amongst it, right? But I'm interested in what your, what your feeling is. Do you ever think about how mad that is or are you in there mentally?

• 46:20Speaker 01

  You know, it's in a weird way, which is probably not healthy. I don't really stop to go, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, like, back up.

• 46:31Speaker 01

  You, kid from where, you're like in this, like crazy, you know, I, I feel very grateful. I really do. I'm, I'm big into like gratitude lists and all of that stuff, you know, I'm, I'm into that. But I feel grateful that I get to do this and work with the people I work with and be here chatting to you and I, I, I'm, I feel really hap, like, like, wow, man. I feel gratitude.

• 47:02Speaker 01

  But I don't really stop to kind of like reflect on the journey.

• 47:05Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 47:06Speaker 01

  Do you know what I mean? And kind of, uh, think like, wow, this is crazy. Like from the outside of it, I'm kind of like,

• 47:14Speaker 01

  quite like in it. I'm just kind of like trying to figure out the scene and like then watching it back and thinking, did it work?

• 47:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:21Speaker 01

  And like, I'm quite, I'm just kind of like trying to learn, I guess. Like even with Tom Cruise, when I'm out on the outside of it, I'm not thinking like, bro, that's crazy. That's Tom Cruise. I'm thinking just more like, I'm kind of learning. I feel like I'm kind of quite a sponge.

• 47:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:39Speaker 01

  Rather than sat outside kind of like a telescope or whatever, like looking at the bird's eye view.

• 47:45Speaker 00

  It would be self-destructive to turn up every day going, that's Tom Cruise.

• 47:50Speaker 00

  I mean, that's the, that's a way to have a shit day, isn't it?

• 47:53Speaker 01

  It'd kill his vibe.

• 47:54Speaker 00

  Bro, do you reckon I can get that coconut cake?

• 47:55Speaker 01

  It would absolutely destroy his vibe, wouldn't it?

• 47:58Speaker 00

  No, but what do you think the chance of me getting a coconut cake?

• 48:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, bro, can I just stop you a minute? It's Tom Cruise.

• 48:04Speaker 01

  Are you aware of that?

• 48:05Speaker 00

  Fucking Tom Cruise guy.

• 48:06Speaker 01

  Are you aware of this? Yeah. That must be mad. What's that like? Yeah, no, I, I, yeah, I think I like, I like being in it, absorbing it, learning. And I do feel if I step back, it's more kind of gratitude, but not like, yeah, I don't know if that makes sense.

• 48:25Speaker 00

  No, it does make sense. It does make sense. You're in the film.

• 48:27Speaker 01

  How do you do that? How do you step outside of your own life really fully to kind of like, this is your, and like, reflect on it in that way. It's, it's weird. You're in it. Do you know what I mean?

• 48:38Speaker 00

  My agent said to me, Rom, some, because I get so busy and I, and I, I love what I do, I think, in the same way that you do. And so you get caught up in doing stuff and doing stuff. And my agent would say to me, Flo would say to me sometimes, Rom, like smell the roses from now, like now and again, do you know what I mean? In terms of, this is pretty amazing. If I'd have said to you three years ago, this would be what you'd be doing.

• 49:00Speaker 01

  You'd be chatting to Riz Ahmed.

• 49:01Speaker 00

  Yeah. You know, if you'd be chatting to somebody that the team didn't know in three years' time, what would you say to them?

• 49:08Speaker 01

  I told you this podcast was a bad idea. Diminishing returns. End it.

• 49:13Speaker 00

  Um, no, she, you know, I think it's, it's a bit, it's a bit of that, right?

• 49:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. So how are you doing with that? Are you able to do that?

• 49:19Speaker 00

  No.

• 49:20Speaker 01

  No, it's not really, I don't really, I think, can I tell you another thing?

• 49:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:24Speaker 01

  I feel like when you're like quote unquote smashing it, things are going well, like you've, you know, you've done this thing you wanted to do and it's being received well and all this stuff. And people are like, dude, you gotta take a minute to enjoy this. You're like, I can't, I'm really busy.

• 49:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:39Speaker 01

  It's like the moments that people tell you to like stop and reflect and savour are usually the moments where you are completely overwhelmed and kind of drowning in like the stuff you're hustling to make.

• 49:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 49:52Speaker 01

  And actually, the only moments you get to sit back and reflect is when you're out, down on your luck and on your arse.

• 49:59Speaker 00

  When it's going shit.

• 50:00Speaker 01

  And it's going shit. Those are the moments you maybe go like, this is your life. Okay.

• 50:05Speaker 00

  Look at how far you've come.

• 50:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, fucked it again. So, but when, when things are going well, it's usually because you're grinding and you're peddling so hard. You don't have the time, all the resources to stop and savour it.

• 50:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 50:18Speaker 01

  You're just peddling so hard. Um, I always said, you know what, when, when someone from the outside is like killing it, you know, that's when you should check in on them.

• 50:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:29Speaker 01

  That's actually usually when they are like, dude, like, it's so intense right now. I'm just trying to stay, keep my head above water and stuff. So.

• 50:39Speaker 00

  But you're good now, right?

• 50:41Speaker 01

  I think so, yeah.

• 50:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, okay.

• 50:43Speaker 01

  Was that a, was that a check in?

• 50:45Speaker 00

  That was a check in.

• 50:45Speaker 01

  That was a well-being check.

• 50:46Speaker 00

  A lot of people check in and they, it sounds like they mean it. But I just thought, you're good, yeah? Yeah, I think we can move on.

• 50:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. Didn't feel very genuine. There was a lot of curiosity in that.

• 50:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, sorry about that. Uh, no, I do mean it though. You're good.

• 50:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think so. I'm good. I'm good. Um, you know, what, what's, I mean, it's one of those classic things where, well, we were talking about this before and I'll touch on it now. I lost my dad this year. A few months ago. And, you know, it's obviously really hard. He was a lovely guy. Uh, genuinely just like humble, hilarious guy. Like just bars, like one-liners, you know?

• 51:26Speaker 01

  He was at a hospital, you know, just like cracking jokes with the nurses and all of that. And.

• 51:33Speaker 01

  And obviously like that happens the same year that like, you know, it's like, oh, I've been trying to make Hamlet for fifteen years. I've been trying to make Bait for ten years. I've got this Tom Cruise.

• 51:46Speaker 01

  You know, it kind of all happens at the same time. Life has a kind of fullness to it in that way. I think maybe it's partly this stage of life, you know, they say that, you know, you're you're grinding hardest in your career. At this point, you've got older parents, younger kids, not you, because you started having kids when you were twelve. But but every but there's that kind of um intensity to life right now that I'm just learning to kind of embrace.

• 52:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:14Speaker 01

  You know, that whole it's the best of times, the worst of times, it all kind of, it all happens on top of each other.

• 52:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:19Speaker 01

  I think so.

• 52:22Speaker 01

  Am I good, I think is maybe i- it's not as simple as that, but it's life is full.

• 52:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:27Speaker 01

  And I'm grateful to be able to experience all that, even grief, you know. It's like that whole cliche about grief is a reflection of how much of of your love.

• 52:38Speaker 01

  I do feel that kind of like, you know, that grief will never go.

• 52:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:42Speaker 01

  Actually, but it's a constant reminder of your love. And and if I'm in a state of grief, I feel my dad's presence.

• 52:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:51Speaker 01

  A bit more. So I'm I'm trying to just be grateful for all of it.

• 52:54Speaker 00

  How how did your uh dad, because my my dad passed away before I got any kind of noticeable success, but he was, he did used to come to club gigs.

• 53:05Speaker 01

  Hmm. Oh, wow. What did he say? Was he like your worst critic, biggest fan?

• 53:09Speaker 00

  He said both, actually.

• 53:11Speaker 01

  Tell me, what's a classic?

• 53:12Speaker 00

  So like the first, so there's a a a gig called Crater, this is weekend in Brighton, it's the first weekend, you're trying, as a comic, you're trying to get a weekend of gigs, right? And um and my dad said, I'll come down and watch. And he was really excited that I'd got booked like a paid comic to go do some, do do this thing. And he sat at the back on his own, he didn't tell anybody, I mean, nobody gave a shit who I was anyway, so it wouldn't have got him any cachet. So he sat at the back and um I had, I was in the middle, sort of the baby spot or whatever, I did my thing. And the the night played out and I walked off stage and went and saw him afterwards. And he said um, he uh he said to me, he said, I'm really proud of you.

• 53:57Speaker 00

  He said, but the last guy was much better than you. And he said, if you want to make it, he goes, you've got to look at that guy and think, how do I get as good as that guy? And he said, I'm just being honest with you, you weren't like on the night, he was the star of the night and you, that's something for you to think about. Um, yeah.

• 54:12Speaker 01

  How did that land for you? Were you devastated?

• 54:14Speaker 00

  I wasn't devastated, I I it hurts, it hurts, it hits you. But then, if my dad then ever said anything, that's what you need that. Do you know what I mean? Like, he wasn't saying it in a judgmental way, he was saying it like I'm team Rom. You know, like we like together, we've got to figure out, that guy was better, what do you, what should we do?

• 54:35Speaker 01

  Tell me what what um did you then study that guy's set? Did you learn from him?

• 54:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I think I think the way that you talked about being a sponge when you're acting, that's what you, that's what you do when you're doing stand up. But but how how did your how did your dad interact with your success and and your progress?

• 54:53Speaker 01

  He was quite

• 54:56Speaker 01

  nonplussed, but you know what I mean? Which you need in a way, like he would, I mean, I used to have this running joke where I just go like, yeah, he did that, right? Yeah, good, good. Tell me you're proud. Tell me you're proud, tell me you're proud, tell me, tell me, say it, say it, tell me you're proud, tell me. And and you'd be like, what, what is it to say? Nothing to say, you know? This kind of like running joke, he was proud and he would tell me after I'd like arm wrestled it out of him. Um, like the needy child that I that I was, and on some level I still am, we all are. If I if I'm really honest, um, yes, I think he was proud, but I think he was big into like downplaying stuff, you know? Because

• 55:39Speaker 01

  and this is right, because he's like, it's not what really matters.

• 55:41Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 55:42Speaker 01

  You know, like getting gassed up of like fame or what strangers think of you or even money or any of that, it's actually not what matters.

• 55:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:50Speaker 01

  Which is hundred percent true. And at different points in my life, maybe I would have felt like I wish he had given me more of that pat on the back. He was never like dismissive.

• 56:01Speaker 00

  No.

• 56:01Speaker 01

  He was never uninterested. But it was just measured in a way that was like, what matters? And we always say is, you know, be a good person.

• 56:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 56:11Speaker 01

  That's what matters.

• 56:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:12Speaker 01

  And you'd be like, even when I was younger, I'd be like, for fuck's sake, all right, yes, okay, the good person thing, but come on, like, what'd you think?

• 56:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, but good, right?

• 56:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:19Speaker 00

  Like sick, yeah?

• 56:20Speaker 01

  He'd be like, ah, maybe, you know? There's that kind of thing that he had, which was about really trying to root me and ground me in what really matters. I'm actually really grateful for it.

• 56:31Speaker 00

  You know, I mean, I think that's great.

• 56:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:34Speaker 00

  I think it's really good.

• 56:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I I'm sad he didn't get to see Bait.

• 56:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:38Speaker 01

  That's something that I I wish that he would have been able to see. Um, because it's so I think a lot of it is his humour.

• 56:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 56:47Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? I think in a way, he's all over it, he's all over the show.

• 56:51Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 56:52Speaker 01

  He's in that show.

• 56:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:53Speaker 01

  Um, so I'm sad about that, but honestly, I feel really grateful that I had him for as long as I did, you know, I've got friends who'd lost their parents a lot younger, or even their babies who never met their parents, and it's like, again, I'm just very grateful.

• 57:08Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 57:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, can we talk about hip hop for a little bit?

• 57:11Speaker 01

  Please, yeah, man, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 57:13Speaker 00

  But um.

• 57:14Speaker 01

  My dad had a running joke where he'd like, um, I'd introduce him to people and because, you know, he spoke in a bit of an accent as an immigrant, and so they'd assume whatever about him. And then he'd be like, we had a bit and he'd go to people like, you you Biggie or Tupac?

• 57:32Speaker 01

  And he'd be like, what? And he'd be like, West Side, West Side, tug life. As if like kind of threateningly, as if like you better not be East Coast. He's like Tupac.

• 57:41Speaker 00

  Are you Biggie or Tupac?

• 57:42Speaker 01

  Huh?

• 57:42Speaker 00

  Are you Biggie?

• 57:43Speaker 01

  You know, I love them both for different reasons. It's the classic answer at this stage, isn't it? But I do, I love them both for different reasons.

• 57:48Speaker 00

  So I was like, I was Biggie all the way. I mean, I'm an East, originally an East Coast hip hop man.

• 57:54Speaker 01

  Why? Because you're just more lyrical?

• 57:55Speaker 00

  I just, I just, that's what I got into and then you form an allegiance, don't you? And then you're sort of like.

• 58:00Speaker 01

  Nintendo Sega.

• 58:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, basically, and you're just biased. But then I, but I love West Coast and now I'm the same as you. I I think that they're I I I like them both for different reasons. I I'm always going to be more of a Biggie guy because

• 58:14Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 58:14Speaker 00

  you know, lazy, I chubby, come on. It's like lab designed to be my guy, right? But

• 58:23Speaker 00

  but my kids.

• 58:24Speaker 01

  IPOC.

• 58:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 58:28Speaker 00

  Come on, man.

• 58:30Speaker 01

  That's what's happening there. Yeah.

• 58:33Speaker 00

  But um, but my kids, the three boys, they're all Tupac. It was, yeah.

• 58:39Speaker 01

  As a as a kind of fuck you dad?

• 58:41Speaker 00

  No, I don't think so. I think it's like, because I I they just, they were just like, I I cannot tell you how much I hear hit them up in my house.

• 58:49Speaker 01

  Wow. I think that's directed at you, bro.

• 58:55Speaker 01

  First off, fuck you bitch, innit, yeah?

• 58:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 58:58Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, that was an anthem for us as well. I also think that's partly because music's become so much more visual now.

• 59:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:04Speaker 01

  If you think about it, you had music videos before. But now it's like you discover artists from their interviews, from YouTube, their their whole presence, their swagger. And I mean, there's a reason Tupac was a film star as well. He's got such a kind of swagger and a charisma. He's in the visual age.

• 59:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:20Speaker 01

  He in a way has aged better.

• 59:22Speaker 00

  Than Biggie.

• 59:23Speaker 01

  Than Biggie.

• 59:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:24Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? In terms of that swagger and that charisma, any interview you watch with him, you're like, wow.

• 59:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, he was he was supposed to be, I don't know, whatever creative outlet it was going to be, he was going to be a star, right? Like he just had that.

• 59:39Speaker 01

  So I was actually listening to an interview with Kane or between Kane, like Kane was talking about this about he used to always be Biggie, but actually the older he gets and deeper into like lyricism and distilling your thoughts down, there's something about how distilled and simple and profound Tupac's bars are as well, that are just about really communicating.

• 59:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:00Speaker 01

  With feeling in a different way.

• 1:00:02Speaker 00

  I think it's fair to say there's a depth to what Tupac did that Biggie didn't, you know, like

• 1:00:07Speaker 01

  You reckon, yeah, yeah.

• 1:00:08Speaker 00

  I think so, I mean.

• 1:00:09Speaker 01

  It's both deeper but also more simple.

• 1:00:10Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:00:11Speaker 01

  Which is not a bad combo.

• 1:00:12Speaker 00

  And I think it's like what you and I were talking about, like, without getting too nerdy about it, is that that there's that thing of like, the difference between, the difference between hip hop being a skills based thing and a and a creative art form, right? And it's that thing of like.

• 1:00:28Speaker 01

  Skills versus heart.

• 1:00:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, and and and you know, like when when the, you know, we would, you you talk about, I don't know, future and mumble rap or whatever you want to call it. And people started to, the older hip hop heads started to go, you need to be able to freestyle, you need to be able to spit Hot Sixteen or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then what they, I I think what it's, what some of it's evolved into. Is how does my voice sound in the mix, you know, like, how do I play with my voice to add to this song rather than have I got a metaphor that really works or is the rhyme pattern intricate enough?

• 1:01:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:01:05Speaker 00

  And I think there's a difference, there's a difference in that. And I think the musicality of it resonates with my children more than the skills based on it.

• 1:01:15Speaker 01

  I think so. It's like, it's almost like, it's just a natural evolution. I call it Sudoku rap. You know, when you're just like, oh, the 12 internal rhyme schemes, it's the A, B, C, A, A, C, A, B. It's like, what's happening here? Like, what are we really doing? We're just showing off.

• 1:01:32Speaker 01

  And I also kind of think in a way that's been taken to his conclusion, like people like Eminem did that. And it's like, what's the next evolution?

• 1:01:38Speaker 00

  Further can you go?

• 1:01:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, we're just gonna go down, you know, up our own arses with that. And I kind of feel like the feeling, taking the genre out of the head into the heart is also about a kind of confidence of not having anything to prove.

• 1:01:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:52Speaker 01

  But having a feeling to kind of communicate. And I don't think it's an accident that, you know, some of those kind of classic rappers like Talib Kweli, I remember saying, I mean, it's a while ago now, saying his favorite rapper was Young Thug.

• 1:02:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:02:05Speaker 01

  And Andre 3000 saying his favorite rapper is Future. So I think there is a kind of, you know, the essence of basically doing something punk and unpredictable remains, but it's the way in which the space you have to do it now, I think, is open up.

• 1:02:20Speaker 00

  I think Andre 3000 is a good example of somebody who's technically great.

• 1:02:24Speaker 01

  He does both.

• 1:02:25Speaker 00

  But, but is also.

• 1:02:26Speaker 01

  Also unpredictable, plays with his voice and communicates a lot of feeling.

• 1:02:31Speaker 00

  Because I saw a thing recently where everybody told him not to put Haye out as a song.

• 1:02:36Speaker 01

  Really?

• 1:02:36Speaker 00

  Everybody he knew said, this isn't it. This isn't it. People are gonna.

• 1:02:41Speaker 01

  Too commercial.

• 1:02:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, people are gonna be pissed off. But I don't know if you've, Talib, what I've been listening to recently, it's heartbreaking to listen to. And I know Kanye's cancelled, but he did a song called Life of the Party and Andre does a verse on it, right? His opening verse. And on that verse, he is talking to his late mother via Kanye's late mother. So he's saying, dear Miss Donda, can you ask my mother? And that verse, I'm telling you, man.

• 1:03:13Speaker 01

  I've never heard it.

• 1:03:13Speaker 00

  I cannot listen to it without getting really, you know, it's just, it's technically great, but it hits you right in the, it gets me every single time I listen. Andre's verse in particular is unbelievable. And I think that's what, it's that thing of, he's obviously technically a great rapper, but he's gone. This is how I really feel. And you can tell in the same, actually weirdly, in the same way with what you're saying about bait, he talks about some of the negatives he feels about his, you know, I didn't like you overstepping sometimes. And then there's a bit where he says, I've got to admit to you, I was having sex with that girl behind the church. You know, there's all this stuff where he admits stuff to his mom. Messy?

• 1:03:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:58Speaker 00

  And it's beautiful and amazing. And it's, when I hear things like that, I go, oh, there's a thing that music hits you in a way that it's very difficult to find other stuff that can hit you like that.

• 1:04:09Speaker 01

  It's like honesty over cleverness.

• 1:04:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, mate, that is it, man.

• 1:04:12Speaker 01

  Every time.

• 1:04:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04:13Speaker 01

  I think that's what, when a piece of art is trying to be clever.

• 1:04:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04:17Speaker 01

  I think it gets in the way of the head's getting in the way of the heart.

• 1:04:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04:20Speaker 01

  And I think that honesty is what pulls us through. I think, you know, to keep it on hip hop for a second, I think, you know, the big three, as they're called, right? Like Kendrick, J. Cole, Drake. Whatever you think of them, whichever flavor you prefer of, you know, of your rap, they're all writing bars about being very conflicted.

• 1:04:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04:42Speaker 01

  And contradictory people. You know, it's about, it's almost like there's a neurosis to it.

• 1:04:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:04:48Speaker 01

  There's a kind of like, whereas before it was like, I'm a gangster rapper or I'm like conscious and I'm preaching.

• 1:04:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:04:54Speaker 01

  And like that messiness, I think is part of what has helped.

• 1:04:58Speaker 00

  Showing yourself to be flawed is relatively new.

• 1:05:01Speaker 01

  You reckon, yeah, yeah.

• 1:05:03Speaker 00

  Well, it's been around for a bit now, but what I mean is, if you think about hip hop started about, you know, talking about how great you, you know, and even you're talking about, I've made it. My stuff's really good. I'm better, I'm better than you. I've made this money from these poor circles. And all of that's great, but.

• 1:05:18Speaker 01

  But it leaves me lonely.

• 1:05:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:20Speaker 01

  But actually it's a distraction.

• 1:05:21Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 1:05:22Speaker 01

  But actually I'm really depressed.

• 1:05:23Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 1:05:23Speaker 01

  That's the kind of like the sec, you know, that's the turn, that's the twist, that's the Mr. Morale.

• 1:05:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:29Speaker 01

  You know what I mean?

• 1:05:29Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 1:05:29Speaker 01

  Which I loved as an album. You know, a lot of people had different things to say about it. That's probably my favorite of his albums because of that, because he leans into that, that honesty. Yeah, man. I mean, again, it comes back to what you're saying about stand up. It's like, you've got to go where it's scary.

• 1:05:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:43Speaker 01

  You know, I remember Michaela Cole winning an Emmy for writing I May Destroy You, which was one of the shows that I really looked to as I was creating bait, just in terms of how honest it is. And it's like, I want to make something that no one else could have made because it's so them. She said like, in a world where visibility is confused with success, I dare all the writers to step out of the limelight or step away and write the thing you're afraid to.

• 1:06:07Speaker 00

  It's amazing.

• 1:06:07Speaker 01

  Write the thing you're afraid to. And there was a reason why you're afraid, because it's exposing, because it's honest. But it's honesty is what will connect with people. That's what you relate to. You know, I could watch something, people who've got lives, nothing like mine.

• 1:06:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:06:26Speaker 01

  And it feels like it's me.

• 1:06:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:06:28Speaker 01

  I'm that person now.

• 1:06:29Speaker 00

  Because they're being true to themselves.

• 1:06:31Speaker 01

  Because it's honest. It's honest, you know, it's the wavelength of honesty. So, and I think the honest truth is we are always messy. So when you, when you get into that place, I think that's, that's the sweet spot, I think, you know.

• 1:06:45Speaker 00

  Right, we're gonna play a little game, Riz. It's called Misquoted.

• 1:06:49Speaker 01

  Alright.

• 1:06:49Speaker 00

  I'm gonna tell you some things that you may or may not have said, and you've just got to tell me whether you think you said them or not, alright?

• 1:06:54Speaker 01

  Let's do it.

• 1:06:58Speaker 00

  Here's your first one. Good luck.

• 1:07:00Speaker 01

  That I said.

• 1:07:01Speaker 00

  That you said, yeah. Yeah, it'd be horrendous if it's things that I said. How do you play that game?

• 1:07:07Speaker 00

  It's a good cake, spongy.

• 1:07:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, I said that.

• 1:07:12Speaker 00

  You said that to Esquire magazine, 2026, about the Tom Cruise coconut cake.

• 1:07:16Speaker 01

  Tom Cruise coconut cake.

• 1:07:18Speaker 00

  Delicious, as amazing as ever.

• 1:07:19Speaker 01

  It is good, but I feel like I'm gonna like have a slice of it and die now because so many people are putting evil eye on this.

• 1:07:25Speaker 01

  Do you grow up in the culture of evil eye?

• 1:07:27Speaker 00

  My mom is like, don't show too much stuff. I get that, all of that, yeah.

• 1:07:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, the evil eye.

• 1:07:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:07:33Speaker 01

  For the non-pox, they're like, they're.

• 1:07:36Speaker 00

  Riz Ahmed.

• 1:07:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:39Speaker 01

  Actor.

• 1:07:41Speaker 01

  And this guy was ready to drop a beer. He was like, is he a DJ? He thinks I'm Wayne Lineker.

• 1:07:51Speaker 00

  Are you gonna get him to sing something?

• 1:07:54Speaker 01

  He's bringing his puppet, that thing he does with the, what are you think? I'm not Miss Rachel, bro. So there's this, so there's this kind of thing where basically if you talk about your success or talk about fortunate things that have happened to you too much. He's like, if I just go, Romesh, I love your glasses, man. Those glasses are amazing. It's so great. And you're gonna step outside. They're gonna.

• 1:08:14Speaker 00

  They're gonna break.

• 1:08:15Speaker 01

  They're gonna break.

• 1:08:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:08:16Speaker 01

  And so, yeah, man, alright, I got one coconut cake.

• 1:08:19Speaker 00

  And it's not great.

• 1:08:20Speaker 01

  It's not all, yeah, don't even worry about the cake.

• 1:08:23Speaker 00

  Okay, next one. Did you or did you not say this? Bring back the iPod shuffle.

• 1:08:33Speaker 01

  What a shit quote, man.

• 1:08:35Speaker 00

  Do you think you said it?

• 1:08:36Speaker 01

  I don't think I did. Did I say that? I did. I said it, yeah.

• 1:08:39Speaker 00

  No.

• 1:08:40Speaker 01

  No, I didn't.

• 1:08:41Speaker 00

  It's similar to what you said.

• 1:08:43Speaker 01

  What did I say?

• 1:08:44Speaker 00

  We are living our, we are living like our iPods are on shuffle.

• 1:08:49Speaker 00

  Metro 2013.

• 1:08:53Speaker 01

  But what if your iPod is on shuffle? Who has an iPod?

• 1:08:56Speaker 00

  I want to get an iPod. I want to get an iPod.

• 1:08:58Speaker 01

  That sounds like a lie. That doesn't make any sense.

• 1:09:00Speaker 00

  Uh, said during, you took ayahuasca with some friends? No, I'm joking.

• 1:09:07Speaker 01

  I haven't done ayahuasca.

• 1:09:08Speaker 00

  No, I want to.

• 1:09:09Speaker 01

  Have you done it?

• 1:09:09Speaker 00

  No, I want to.

• 1:09:10Speaker 01

  Should we do it together?

• 1:09:10Speaker 00

  I'd love to. Fucking hell.

• 1:09:12Speaker 01

  That'd be a great episode of something.

• 1:09:13Speaker 00

  Mate, that's, that is, that is Commissioner Catnip, that is.

• 1:09:17Speaker 01

  Come on.

• 1:09:18Speaker 00

  Risen Rom do ayahuasca? Holy shit.

• 1:09:21Speaker 01

  Can we do that? Can we make this happen?

• 1:09:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, not on the, let's not waste it on the podcast. Let's go fucking Netflix or somebody, man. We could do it here. Are you mad?

• 1:09:29Speaker 01

  This would be pay-per-view. Be a live event.

• 1:09:34Speaker 01

  Who'd be the commentators? Gus. Gus would be commentating.

• 1:09:37Speaker 00

  You fucking mash up, you know. Okay, here's your, here's your next one. You don't raise your kids, they raise you.

• 1:09:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think I said that. I've probably heard that of someone else. Edward's trying to sound clever.

• 1:09:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, you said that to The Guardian in 2026.

• 1:09:50Speaker 01

  It sounds like the thing you'd say to The Guardian.

• 1:09:52Speaker 00

  And here's your last one. The way we all want to be seen is James Bond.

• 1:09:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, said to Esquire, 2026. A lot of 2026 stuff going on. You've been hitting the PR.

• 1:10:02Speaker 01

  Researchers did not go very deep.

• 1:10:04Speaker 00

  I was wondering.

• 1:10:05Speaker 01

  They clearly cobbled this together in the last five minutes when they realized I'm not Jay Shetty.

• 1:10:12Speaker 01

  He's like, pull down, fuck, he's getting interviews. This is his first.

• 1:10:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, here's the last one they've done. What was it like?

• 1:10:17Speaker 01

  2026.

• 1:10:18Speaker 00

  What was it like being in The Odyssey?

• 1:10:25Speaker 01

  I might take credit for that.

• 1:10:28Speaker 00

  Look, Riz, it's been an amazing chat with you, man.

• 1:10:31Speaker 01

  You too, bro.

• 1:10:32Speaker 00

  We like to end the podcast on like a big moment. So here are your options, okay?

• 1:10:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:37Speaker 00

  Some sort of, we were after a dream you have, a hidden talent, big or small, or something you haven't said publicly before, or the best advice you've ever been given. Any of those?

• 1:10:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, a lot of those sound too uplifting.

• 1:10:49Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:10:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I'm just gonna end with a slightly dark story.

• 1:10:52Speaker 00

  Please, I'd love that.

• 1:10:55Speaker 01

  So I got a call from the police in February.

• 1:11:00Speaker 01

  And they called me up and they went, hello, we'd like to do a welfare check on Mr. Riz Ahmed. And I was like, what? What do you mean? Welfare check? Um, yeah, we just wanna make sure that you're safe and well. And there's nothing to be concerned about. Threatening call to get from the police. I was like, all right, what's happened? He goes, well, we had a call from the NYPD.

• 1:11:24Speaker 01

  And basically, someone has contacted the NYPD and said, listen, I'm in touch with Riz Ahmed. He's been emailing me. He's being held hostage in West London. And he's managed to get to a device and tell me that unless I pay £5,000 to this account, they're gonna kill him. So NYPD, please help. Can you contact Hammersmith Police? Can you do something or whatever? I don't know why. Hammersmith.

• 1:11:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:11:55Speaker 01

  And, um, and what's basically happened is someone has been catfishing. Attending to be me.

• 1:12:03Speaker 00

  Kidnapped, got to a device.

• 1:12:05Speaker 01

  Me kidnapped. In order to get, in order to get, in order to try and scam money out of people. And I feel someone's probably quite, you know, a bit of a fan, bit vulnerable. And it's quite, quite mad. Well, I was thinking, imagine how effective it would be if I stopped and I actually start sending photos of myself.

• 1:12:28Speaker 00

  Just looking really sad. Wow, that's mad.

• 1:12:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's an exclusive. I know people drop an exclusive. Yeah, you know, there's a lot of uplifting shit on this podcast. I think, I think this is more your vibe.

• 1:12:41Speaker 00

  Wow. No, you're right, actually.

• 1:12:43Speaker 01

  Like.

• 1:12:43Speaker 00

  What I like to have, put an uplifting chat and then just.

• 1:12:46Speaker 01

  Upsetting kinda.

• 1:12:49Speaker 00

  That's my nickname at school, dark and upsetting. Okay, please, give it up. You've been absolutely unbelievable, though, thank you.

• 1:12:57Speaker 01

  Appreciate you, man.

• 1:12:57Speaker 00

  Riz Ahmed, everybody. Mate, so good, man. Thank you so much for watching and listening to this episode. Before you go, if you've enjoyed this episode and you've not subscribed, that's a bold decision, crazy behaviour. Follow and subscribe to the Romesh Rang and Ethan Show wherever you listen. It helps me, really, like, really helps me, it helps the team. And it costs you absolutely nothing. We drop episodes every Monday and Thursday. Mondays, I'm joined by great guests. Thursdays, my mum, Shadi, joins me to answer your questions and family dilemmas. I'll see you Thursday with mum, who, let's face it, is who you're actually here for. If you've got a problem you want to solve or a story you wanna share,

• 1:13:37Speaker 00

  send it to [email protected], voice note or text us on 07731 623355. We can't promise good advice, but you might end up on the show. See you soon.

• 1:13:53Speaker 03

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