Tom Hopper On Getting Sober, Training For The Screen & Finding The Man Behind The Muscle

Tom Hopper is an actor known for his roles in The Umbrella Academy, Black Sails, and The Terminal List. This conversation explores how Tom manages to meld an artistic sensibility with an athlete’s discipline. We discuss his path from drama school to action star, what Navy SEALs taught him, raising his non-verbal autistic son Freddie, a decade alcohol-free, and whether he’s the next James Bond. Earlier in the day, we filmed an Open Container where Tom literally lapped me in the stupidest circuit of all time. I was so humbled. Tom is a mountain of a man and a sensitive artist. He’s an absolute delight. Enjoy! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: Shokz: Use code RICHROLL for an exclusive discount on all Shokz products👉🏼https://beopen.shokz.com/RICHROLL LMNT: Get a free 8-count Sample Pack with any purchase👉🏼https://www.drinkLMNT.com/RICHROLL Ridge: Shop Ridge’s Friends & Family Sale👉🏼https://www.ridge.com/RICHROLL Birch: Get 27% Off Sitewide👉🏼https://www. BirchLiving.com/richroll Momentous: Get up to 35% off your first order👉🏼https://www.livemomentous.com/richroll Check out all of the amazing discounts from our Sponsors👉🏼https://www.richroll.com/sponsors Find out more about Voicing Change Media at https://www.voicingchange.media and follow us @voicingchange Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

  Much of my training is done on dark mornings, either on busy roads or on trails, shared with gravel bikers and various wildlife you're best to avoid. So hearing what's around me, that is essential to safety. Sealing myself off with earbuds really isn't an option. But the trade off has always been accepting every bit of wind and road noise on top of whatever I'm trying to listen to. And the OpenFit Pro, that's what you see right here, solves that. Shocks built open ear noise reduction into an open ear design. So the unwanted noise feels like it's been pushed farther away, kind of like an invisible hand holding it back, while you stay completely connected to what's happening around you.

• 0:44Rich Roll?

  So you get this focused listening experience without the isolation part. I don't know how they do it, but they do, and it's amazing. Plus, they have flexible ear hooks and soft silicone that keep shocks locked in through a hard effort. They shrug off sweat and rain and they sit very comfortably under a beanie, which is very important for me. The sound is genuinely rich. It's Dolby Atmos optimized and the battery runs for days and days of normal use. And right now, for listeners of the show, you can visit shokz.com or click the link in the description box and use code RICHROLL for a discount on all Shocks products. And it can be combined with other official promotions.

• 1:27Speaker 01

  You could have an action star, right? And they can be the toughest guy in the room. But I want to know, who's the little boy that grew up to be that?

• 1:37Rich Roll?

  My guest today is Tom Hopper, an actor known for scene stealing roles in Game of Thrones and The Umbrella Academy. And now for his starring role alongside Chris Pratt and Taylor Kitsch in The Terminal List, a military action thriller series based on the novel of the same name by author and former Navy SEAL Jack Carr. This is a conversation about what it means to pursue the creative artist's life and fully commit to a craft. It's about pursuing acting with an athlete mindset. Why and what led to him giving up alcohol? The crucial role fitness plays in his life and mental health. This guy is a beast and a very impressive high rocks competitor.

• 2:19Rich Roll?

  Life lessons he learned from embedding with special operators. And the surprising revelations that he and his wife have experienced raising a non-verbal autistic son.

• 2:30Speaker 01

  Freddie, who's actually the biggest light in our lives. I saw this interaction that I hadn't had with him for a couple of years, where he kind of looked at me and we were playing again. This is all about how he sees this world and I have to jump into that.

• 2:45Rich Roll?

  Yes, he is incredibly charming. But Tom is also very wise and incredibly empathetic and truly impressed me with his depth. Check out season two of The Terminal List, dropping on Amazon October 21st. And enjoy this delightful conversation with your new favorite actor.

• 3:10Rich Roll?

  One of my favorite categories of guests on the show are people that have found a way to like meld this artistic sensibility with an athletic sensibility. You know, when I was raised, I sort of was under the belief or there was this perception that you could be kind of an artistic kid or you can be the athlete, but never the twain shall meet. Like, these are two different worlds and people are sort of come out of the womb wired for one of these. And I always love putting that lie to the test. And you're an example of that. Like, you're a mountain of a man. You're obviously like an incredible physical specimen who is, you know, super into fitness and wellbeing,

• 3:52Rich Roll?

  cares about your health, super into, you know, high rocks and cross training and all these sorts of things, which shoots you in the roles that you've taken on as, you know, these like special operator types, alpha males. But you're also like a sensitive artist. Like, you wouldn't, you wouldn't go into acting at a young age if that wasn't really the thing that lit you up more than anything else.

• 4:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, for me, uh, like I grew up watching these action heroes, right? They're like my, they're my inspiration from the acting side of things. And I also loved watching, you know, beautiful performances by some of the greatest actors ever, right? But I was, I was always into sport. I was always in team sports and stuff. And I've always seeked performance. I've always wanted to be the fastest on the track and field. I've always wanted to be performing the best I can do. It's weird because my, as my teens went through the process, I was a very skinny, tall guy, right?

• 4:58Speaker 01

  So I had a growth spurt at like 16 and then

• 5:03Speaker 01

  had no muscle whatsoever, you know? Like, I remember someone, you know, taking a piss out of me on the football field once, being like, uh, like your chest goes inwards. They said it was like, so I had all these.

• 5:15Rich Roll?

  Concave.

• 5:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, concave chest. And I was like so skinny and I got really self-aware of that and stuff. And I didn't even start properly. I was doing these sports, but I never really thought about the idea of putting on the muscle and stuff. I wanted to and I wanted to know how to do it. But there wasn't like social media and stuff for now. And I know that, you know, we've talked about this. There's a lot of confusing things of how to do things. But also the information is there readily available to get into that kind of shape. So when I got into drama school, I was looking at theater and thinking, well, how do I make a real career of this? How do I get to be an action guy? How do I get to be in movies?

• 5:53Rich Roll?

  That was always the impetus. You weren't going to the Royal Shakespeare Company so that you could be, you know, on the stage doing Macbeth. It was always like, how do I be Van Damme or Stallone or Schwarzenegger?

• 6:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, because I was following a dream, right? The reason I wanted to become an actor was because I want to make movies and great TV and stuff. And I wanted to fulfill those, those, those dreams I had had as a kid. So I wanted to find something that would set me apart from, from other actors, especially in the UK. There wasn't really many actors in the UK at that point that were, I guess, like, you know, muscular or whatever. And I just tried to find something that would set me apart. So I just started lifting weights in drama school, which we weren't supposed to do. We were supposed to, you know, be free and loose. And on stage, you're supposed to be able to, you know, just.

• 6:43Rich Roll?

  Well, there's a sort of a feat, you know, kind of culture and sensibility to being in drama school. And you're supposed to want to be a Shakespearean actor. And it's embarrassing to admit that you actually want to be an action hero.

• 6:56Speaker 01

  An action star.

• 6:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So did you keep that quiet? Or was that sort of overt? Like, this is why I'm here. Because like, I would imagine your peers, you know?

• 7:05Speaker 01

  Well, to my tutors, I definitely would. But I think everyone wanted that. But it always felt so out of reach at that point, right? You're only in drama school to just do the devised piece that you're doing that week or something, right? So everything was about becoming a better actor. And I did want to do the Shakespeare. I did want to be the best actor I could do. I wanted the disciplines of how do I become better? Because when I went to drama school and all the way through, I was far from the strongest actor, right? There was actors in my drama school that right now aren't working. But I look at and think, how did they not? Because they were so, so good. And I think some part of that is there's an element of luck, you know, right place, right time.

• 7:49Speaker 01

  And then there's also what are you, what's your products, right? What's your brand? What's the thing that you are selling as an actor? And I thought, well, as a lanky six foot five dude, I'm not really selling anything. Whereas if I'm, you know, a slightly more muscular, athletic build, six foot five guy, that sets me apart from a few other guys. So I started to get these like smaller roles when I first graduated of, you know, I was a part of a smaller pool of actors. And what was interesting, I started noticing that I would get roles of kind of tough dudes, but that had a softness to them. They had morality. And that was something that always really interested me

• 8:34Speaker 01

  because you can have an action star, right? And they can be the toughest guy in the room. But I want to know, who's the little boy that grew up to be that? Right? Who's the human being behind that? Who's the relatable person behind that? And I search for those kind of roles. I want to know how you can have someone that to the average guy, you look at a Navy SEAL and think they're invincible, they're, and they are in a lot of ways, you know, they get pushed beyond any human limit. And ultimately, they're just, they were a little boy once, like everyone else that became that.

• 9:10Rich Roll?

  Where's the humanity? Where's the pain behind the eyes? What is the internal struggle and journey that this person is on?

• 9:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:18Rich Roll?

  While they're, you know, shooting guns.

• 9:19Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 9:20Rich Roll?

  You know, things are exploding.

• 9:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. Because that's the thing is they have to do such extreme things, right? And with the Navy SEALs and a lot of the guys that I've talked to, who are in the SEALs, or some of them are still active, they are the nicest guys I've ever met. They are, they are so humane and like beautiful human beings and will do anything for you. But they have an ability, when called upon, to get a part of their brain to a place where they can do like atrocious things, but for the force of good, for what they believe to be, to be right. And that's the mindset I had to get into. It's how you, and in Terminal List, Dark Wolf, my character, Rafe,

• 10:05Speaker 01

  he had to, what we call the, the showrunner, Dave DeGilio, talks about the, the dark wolf, light wolf dial, right? Where as a person, you either sit more on dark wolf, where you go to the dark side, right? So it's kind of like 40. And then you, or you can sit in light wolf most of the time, but you can turn that dial to dark wolf when you need to. And it's the learning of how that mentality of learning how you turn that dial and come back to light wolf, right? And Rafe sits in that.

• 10:37Rich Roll?

  In preparation for this role, did you train and spend time with special forces operators? And what was that like? And what surprised you about those individuals in that community? Because I think our relationship with these people is really based on what we see in movies and TV. I mean, now there's a lot of podcasters that, you know, that are examples of this, so it's a little bit different. But in my experience, like I've, I've met a handful of these guys and they're not what you would expect.

• 11:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally. Yeah, I spent a lot of time with them. Jared Shaw being one, who is our, our main technical advisor and executive producer on the show. He was instrumental in me kind of really understanding the mindset of what it is to be a SEAL. Another buddy of mine, Elvie, who's still very active in the SEALs, he's an instructor for BUDS over there. And I think the biggest thing that surprised me, I had like a real fear of like being around these guys. They're so alpha.

• 11:40Rich Roll?

  They're the real thing and you're a poser and a pretender. You're gonna, you're gonna put on the costume and like flit about and get paid for it.

• 11:47Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. And the fear is as well, what the guys out there, the audience members who are SEALs. How do I get them to respect my performance, right? How do I get them to think, I buy that. I buy that he could do that. And for me, the only way I could do that was immersing myself with these guys and having huge amount of respect for what they've been through. My job is not to do what they do. My job is to respectfully tell their stories, right? My job is to listen, be a sponge and just absorb them. And how do we then tell an authentic story for them? So I just sat with them. I had like a lot of like lunches and coffees and just drinks and just, you know,

• 12:32Speaker 01

  chats with these guys. The biggest thing that surprised me was how gentle and like kind of humble they are and just they don't, they don't glorify what they do. They are so professional and just live by a code and a brotherhood. And you mentioned the word community. Community with those boys is so important. What I love specifically about the SEALs is called the teams, right?

• 13:06Speaker 01

  It's called the teams because it's not about you. It's about your brother beside you, right? It's about if I go into a room and we're clearing a house, say, I'm not thinking about me. I don't give a shit about me. I give a shit about him. How do I protect him? And every one of those boys in that room is doing the same thing. So you go in there together, knowing that you have your, your brother's back. For me, that's something I could really got on board with because I, I grew up in, in team sports. And that's, that's a mentality that I'm like, I totally understand that. Like on a rugby pitch, I know that if my boy's being tackled over there, I have to be there to clear out that ruck to make sure that the ball carries on in our side.

• 13:51Speaker 01

  So that's always about looking after your fellow man. And it's different to, to different parts of the armed forces. There's no, there's very little ego I find with the, the SEALs. They, they all work for each other. And so that's what I love about them is they, their care for one another.

• 14:09Rich Roll?

  I had this guy, Rich Devini, in here a couple of years ago. And he, I'm probably going to get his title wrong, but essentially he was responsible for kind of overseeing like all the teams and, and like BUDS and et cetera. And determining what makes the difference between somebody who gets in and somebody who isn't like measuring up.

• 14:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:33Rich Roll?

  And what was so interesting about it is that it has nothing to do with like strength or your capacity to hold your breath or like, you know, lay in the ocean when it's free. And like all the stuff that they do, carry, who's going to carry the boats and stuff. It's really about their emotional intelligence and their mental resilience. It's way more of a like a head game thing. And they have like kind of revamped their training based upon like tests and data that they've received over the number of years to figure out like who the best candidates are. And they're often, you know, if you lined them all up, like you wouldn't be able to pick them out in a lineup. And Rich Devini certainly doesn't present as somebody that if you saw him on the street, you wouldn't think like you,

• 15:16Rich Roll?

  you, the, the big bushy beard and the big arms and the like, the tight shirt like you're wearing in Dark Wolf. And all that kind of stuff is like, it's not like that at all. Like this guy is like, he just seems like a dad who would be at your kid's soccer game. You know, like very normal and grounded and affable and friendly. And so it's so interesting, like the, the, the, how they're portrayed in movies and television. Like the alphaness, the sort of alpha nature of these guys. I mean, certainly they're all, you know, very much like that. But, um, but when you interact with them, it's like they don't have anything to, they're not like fronting, you know, like they don't have to like be showy in the way that you kind of see them on screen.

• 15:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. And also the guys like Elvie, who does a lot of the, the BUDS training as an instructor. He says that that's what they're looking for. They're looking to break down the masks to see who the person really is underneath. When you're at the, like in Hell Week where they barely sleep, you're like broken down. That's when you see the guys who are, are really true SEALs that will fight for each other. And like they see a man down, they'll go pick him up and bring him back into the fold. It's exactly what you're saying. It's like, it's the, the mindset and who they are as people that they're looking for.

• 16:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 16:29Speaker 01

  Because you've got to know, you've got to know that that guy is someone that will look out for the man beside him. You can't be in any doubt of that. And he says that you have guys that turn up and they'll absolutely rip it on all the physical stuff. They're front of the pack, but they're not thinking about anyone else. They're like, I'm going to like just jack this up and just like, they just go and they do their thing. And they'll, they'll, they'll be like, gone. Because they're not, they haven't got the right mindset. It's very specific, I think, for the SEALs and they're, it's such a beautiful community. And I've, I've, I've had the luxury of meeting so many of them now and they're all the same. You know, there's different versions of them. Obviously everyone's different, but they kind of have these like fundamental tiers

• 17:14Speaker 01

  about them as, as human beings that all slots within the SEALs.

• 17:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Dark Wolf and the original Terminalist show, these are all based on books by Jack Carr.

• 17:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:26Rich Roll?

  He was, he was a SEAL, right? He was a SEAL. This guy's really prolific, like he's just cranking out books all the time. And these books are crushing, right? Like there's a huge appetite for these stories that he's telling.

• 17:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. His, his work rate is unbelievable. Like there was periods when he came to visit the Dark Wolf set or Untrue Believer that we, that we've just done, where he was like, oh yeah, I'm writing at the moment. I only got like two hours sleep last night. But he's still like, his energy is like up here. And I don't know how he does it, you know, it's, it's incredible, his work rate. And I have a lot in common with him because he has a, a son with special needs as well as I do. So we, we can relate a lot with the, the kind of the reason why we, we do it and why we both work so hard. But he is incredible. Yeah. He churns out books at a crazy rate. And, uh, and he's a big part of the production as well. So in terms of the writing of the scripts, he oversees everything

• 18:21Speaker 01

  and has so many plans for more books and more shows around the Terminalist world. Yeah. So he's, he's quite a machine.

• 18:27Rich Roll?

  He's creating his own. I mean, it's sort of a version of Taylor Sheridan. You know, he's like creating an expanded universe, you know?

• 18:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:35Rich Roll?

  And there's a tremendous appetite for this kind of programming. I mean, I'm like, you know, there's that trope where men of a certain age suddenly become obsessed with like World War II or the Roman Empire. Like for me, it's a series of acronyms. It's like CIA, MI6, uh, KGB, FSB, you know, like

• 18:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:55Rich Roll?

  Mossad, you know, anything that's sort of zero dark 30 coded. Like I'm in day one. So like when Terminalist drops, when your show dropped last year, like I'm day one binging this stuff. Like I just love it. Like, I don't know what, what it is, but like I just, I can't get enough of this kind of stuff. Uh, it's wildly popular. Um, and you're kind of at right place at right time. And the sense that I have gotten from you, we've been spending, we spent like the entire day together. Like we, you, we've been together since seven o'clock in the morning. It's the afternoon now. We taped in open container. So I'm just alerting the audience, you have that to look forward to. So I've gotten to know you a little bit today. And my sense is that you are, you mentioned performance at the outset.

• 19:37Rich Roll?

  Like you are a professional athlete and your sport is acting.

• 19:42Speaker 01

  Sure. That's a really interesting way of putting it. I've not actually thought about it like that before. Um, I suppose like the mindset I approach my acting with is, is like a professional athlete. Yeah. Because I, I do everything I can to, is win the right word. Win in acting is people appreciating your performance, right? Is people going, I believe that.

• 20:10Speaker 01

  I enjoyed that. I was entertained by that. So in the same way, I approach my training from a physical standpoint, or like say like a high rocks race. I do everything in my preparation to know that I can perform and I can perform to the best of my ability or what I'm truly capable of. When I turn up on a set, for me, preparation is everything. And knowing that I can, no matter what happens, I can push the character in any direction. I know who this guy is. I know what, the way he thinks. I know the way he reacts. I know who he is to this person I'm talking to. I know the relationship they have. And it's something that I suppose over time, that's something that's, I've realized that I, I do.

• 20:56Speaker 01

  But for me,

• 20:59Speaker 01

  Being the best actor I can be for not just me, like I do it because I have to do it for my family, right? I have a career to think about and every, every, every performance, no matter what it is, no matter how big the role, it matters to me so much to get it right. And then when it comes to something like Terminal List, even more so, right? Because I not only have a fan base of an existing character from a book that I have to think about, but also for Jack, because he's put in the responsibility into me to create a character that he's written to the Navy SEAL community. I owe it to them to make sure

• 21:38Speaker 01

  this is an authentic performance. So I don't take that lightly, right? That's a huge responsibility in my eyes. So yeah, I, I prepare as, as much as I can to get what we call the win, right?

• 21:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah. It's interesting to think of what you do in an athletic context. Like you train as an athlete so that you can perform in a race or in a game, a tournament, et cetera. You do everything possible to set yourself up for success. And when the race arrives, if you're Michael Phelps and you're getting on the blocks, or you're, you know, Djokovic and you're on the court, you have to let all that go and be present. And similarly in acting, you can't like will or force that performance. You can't like, it's not about pushing, it's about letting go and surrendering. Cause if you're not present and available and actually like listening to the person you're interacting with, you're

• 22:33Rich Roll?

  not going to extract a performance that is going to have any kind of verisimilitude, right? Like, so there's this tension between like the athletic person who's just like harder, harder, go, go, go, push reps. And there's a physicality to, you know, what you do and the roles that you have. But there also has to be this like, you have to let it all go and release and allow like something to happen and be available for something you wouldn't have thought of. But if you're caught up in your head and being like, I have to do this, like you've already lost the game, right? Similarly, like if Michael Phelps or Djokovic or Nadal, or any of these people are, are like thinking about what they have to do when they're on the court or in the pool, like they're out of it, they're out of the game, right? They have to be in that flow state. So you have to set yourself up

• 23:18Rich Roll?

  for like this surrender.

• 23:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's exactly it. And it's perfectly put because you don't see, people don't see the reps being done before the performance, right? They just see performance and, you know, I think you said it so well there because you, the work you put in, the reps you put in before you get onto that, in front of that camera, that, that preparation is the only way you do relax. If you haven't done the preparation, you're going to be uptight, you're going to be like, oh shit, what's my line? I think I should have looked at them all last night. You know, all that kind of thing is going through in your head. And you're like, what happened before this? Did I remember? I can't remember. I was just doing this. You don't want to have any of that. You have to get to a point where-

• 24:02Rich Roll?

  We're like, holy shit, that's Chris Pratt.

• 24:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. Which fortunately I'd had a few reads with him to get the role. So I was kind of like-

• 24:09Rich Roll?

  And Taylor Kitsch is an intimidating dude.

• 24:12Speaker 01

  Oh mate, he-

• 24:13Rich Roll?

  He is, he is, he's, he's a force to be reckoned with, that guy.

• 24:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. So-

• 24:17Rich Roll?

  Like, I don't think, he doesn't look like he suffers fools lightly.

• 24:20Speaker 01

  No. And that's, so me and Kitsch got into a brilliant flow state as actors because he is very similar to me in the way he prepares. We, we both come like ready to rock, you know? And so, and we learn that of each other. So then you get into this beautiful place where you know, as soon as you turn up, even like the first rehearsal, you're like in it. And we got this, this great dynamic through Dark Wolf. And he has this ability, Kitsch is a phenomenal actor, like one of the best I've ever worked with. And he has this ability to live in the moment so well that he can ad lib and riff on, on top of

• 25:03Speaker 01

  the lines that are in the script. In drama, that's really like, in, in comedy, it's easier, right? Because you can just sort of play around. Whereas in drama to like pinpoint your own lines in between the lines that are written on the page and them still be so powerful and make perfect sense and be relevant to the scene and the story. He can just like fly around and it's incredible to watch and amazing to work with as an actor. Like I have such huge respect for that guy. And he will, as you say, doesn't suffer fools lightly, but because he cares so much about the end result. He's, he's a, like he has an athlete mentality. Absolutely. He's very, very skilled hockey player and is like grew

• 25:47Speaker 01

  up in team sports and is very close to the, within the SEAL community. And he approaches his work in that same way. So when you get a bunch of guys who all have that similar mindset, and a lot of the guys on Terminal List are very similar to that, we, we found ourselves in a place where in conversations, it's best idea wins, right? You get into these deep conversations about what's best for this scene. And you do it for every scene. Every scene matters. So working together like that with that group of people and having a whole mindset on a set like that is quite unique. It doesn't happen on a lot of shows. It's very rare.

• 26:23Rich Roll?

  This episode is brought to you by Element, right here in black cherry salt. I'm deep in a fall training block right now, which is the biggest sustained running volume that I've attempted since my back surgery. And here's the thing that nobody tells you about rebuilding endurance at almost 60. Hold on one second. It is good. The margins get thinner. When I under fuel or under hydrate, I don't just feel it on the run. I feel it for the rest of the day. A little bit of a headache, some brain fog, a three o'clock fade. It's not a mystery. Often it's as simple as inadequate electrolytes, which is why Element, lives

• 27:05Rich Roll?

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• 27:46Rich Roll?

  a bunch of stuff. And actually I think we'd all be better off avoiding giving and receiving gifts that even when they're very well intentioned, only get used a couple of times before ending up in a cluttered drawer. What I am into is essentialism. Products that I love, products that are built to last and products that I use every day, which is exactly what the Ridge wallet does. It's made out of aluminum, titanium or carbon fiber. I have the carbon fiber one in orange because that's my color. And it's very cool. It's slim. It's sexy. It's sophisticated. It holds up to 12 cards plus cash. And it's built like it'll outlive me. And it blocks RFID to prevent wireless theft. They make the classic version and

• 28:29Rich Roll?

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• 29:09Rich Roll?

  It was about two years ago that I decided to watch Friday Night Lights from beginning to end, you know?

• 29:18Speaker 01

  Nice.

• 29:19Rich Roll?

  Like, uh, cause the first time I watched it, I just, when it ever came out, you know, it's like, I never like watched it sequentially like that. Um, I mean, you know, it's one of the all time greatest shows ever. It's like so good. Uh, and I'm a huge like Pete Berg fan. I love the movie. And Taylor Kitsch, there's such a naturalism to his acting. Like it's, it appears so effortless. Like he's so embodied in that role, uh, in a, in a really beautiful way. And, and he's an interesting case because in the aftermath of that, of like playing Riggins for however many years, there was a moment where it's like, oh, well, this is the guy. Like this is the next guy. And then for whatever reason, it just seemed like he got put in leading man roles in the wrong movies for him. And

• 30:02Rich Roll?

  like a couple of these movies sequentially like didn't work out from a studio perspective. And then we didn't see him for a while. And then he seems like he's like found his footing with this kind of role. Like he's played variations of like the kind of guy that he plays in Terminal List in your show. It almost seems like he has become one of those guys like in real life. And I don't know, he's a curious, like, like mysterious person. But I also know that, like, doesn't he have, uh, like there's, there's addiction in his family. And I think he set up like a foundation or a treatment center.

• 30:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. How was Ridge? Yeah. It's amazing. He's created this whole thing at where he lives in, in Montana, uh, and a foundation and a place where people can go and recover. And it's beautiful what he's created up there. But what's interesting about Kitsch and what I've learned about him is he's, he's, when you first meet him, there's this like hardness to him. And like, how do I, how do I get in with this dude? Right? Like-

• 31:02Rich Roll?

  Right. Like he's, he's not letting you in easy, right? You're gonna have to earn it.

• 31:06Speaker 01

  Absolutely. You gotta earn his respect and also his trust, right? And, uh, but when you're in, he is the most beautiful, kind, generous guy that thinks about everyone but himself. My wife's very similar to that, right? So I kind of know how to work with someone like that. She has a very small friendship group and doesn't let people in easily, doesn't trust people easily. Um, you know, she was hurt in the past and stuff. And that is like been this knock on effect of her trust. And she often calls things out with people. It's like, I don't, don't trust that person or whatever. And I'm like, I think they're okay. You know, quite open in comparison to her. But down the line, often she's right. And Kitsch is very similar to that. If he spots something, he's like,

• 31:48Speaker 01

  I'm not sure about this. He'll call it quite early and he's usually right on that sort of stuff. Um, but when you're inside and you're inside his friendship circle,

• 31:59Speaker 01

  You're in for life, you know, yeah.

• 32:02Rich Roll?

  Um, where is this all heading for you? I mean, are you somebody who's thinking about taking the leap into the Marvel Universe? Like, like, what's the ambition here? Like, what does the career look like five, 10 years from now if you get your way?

• 32:17Speaker 01

  Um, for me, I'm always looking for unique opportunities to test myself. Um, I have a production company now with my wife and we produce movies and and one of the reasons we do that as well is to is to push myself from a creative standpoint, because a lot of the things I do in my my career that, you know, my my agent stuff will bring me a lot of them are more like in the action realm.

• 32:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 32:41Speaker 01

  So we look for unique projects that we can get made separately that are pushing me from an active point of view, like, how can I really push myself? Um, like the one we've just we've just sold now, we shot last year called Better, where I played twins. So I got to play identical twins and we, you know, I'm doing scenes like this, you and me. I would have a body double, but I'm talking to myself, right? And then I have to switch and do the other side. Uh, so that was like one of the biggest challenges I've ever had.

• 33:10Rich Roll?

  So defying this stereotype, so you're available not to be just typecast in these kinds of roles.

• 33:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, because I I want to push myself, you know, and these kind of roles, you can find those ones that do that.

• 33:22Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 33:24Speaker 01

  And it comes to roles, you know, the Marvel Universe, you know, that's obviously one one path, but I look for things that are really unique and how they're like transcending a genre. Um, like, for instance, Umbrella Academy, when I when I got Umbrella Academy, there was lots of like superhero shows and stuff going on at that point. And I had a few that were sort of turning up in my my email page. And then Umbrella Academy came along. And it was such a unique take on the superhero genre. And as I said before, I'm looking for who's behind the superhero, right? Who's the guy behind the mask, behind the costume, behind the superpower? And how does that superpower affect the person? And that's how you make

• 34:08Speaker 01

  a character relatable for me, you know, like, I want to be able to watch a performance or like, I would want people to watch my performance and think, oh, I see myself in him, you know, and sometimes when you just have a superhero that's like blowing up buildings and stuff, it's like, well, do I care? You know, why do I care about the character? So I'm always looking for things that are unique takes on on genres and on characters. And, you know, like, I think, long term, for for me and the production company and stuff, me and my wife, we spoke about this before, but my my son Freddie is autistic and nonverbal. And, you know, has has severe special needs and

• 34:50Speaker 01

  we we have built this production company to build it to be something that will create an income for him long term, so that we don't have to worry as much about his care and like, who's gonna, who's gonna look after him when we're gone and all that sort of thing? That's that's really important to us. So we're trying to build something for him, you know? Um, so that's my big goal is like, what will keep my career growing to a point that will build our production company to be something more than just a little thing on the side is to build it.

• 35:22Rich Roll?

  And projects that are educational in some way around this issue of neurodivergence and and what autism is, like telling stories with actors, like featuring actors that are, you know, that are neurodivergent and and kind of broadening people's understanding of.

• 35:41Speaker 01

  Definitely. So, yeah, a lot of the characters in our in the movies that we were producing and developing, uh, you know, we'll get given scripts and we look at a character and we're like, actually, this character could be neurodivergent, you know, because for whatever reason, we see a path there where the why not, you know, because it's it's part of our everyday life and it's a part of every, you know, a lot of other people's everyday life that they they deal with this. And it's, I don't know what it's like here so much, but in the UK, there's an element where it's all swept under the carpet, you know, swept under the rug. And they're kind of put aside. And for me, I'm like, well, that's not the way this world is for me, you know, and and having Freddie, who's actually the biggest light in our lives.

• 36:26Speaker 01

  It's an everyday thing and we want it to feel like an everyday thing for everyone else. So it's not, it's not something that people feel scared of. It's something that people go, oh, yeah, I know someone like that, you know, because sometimes when I talk to people about, you know, Freddie and I say, you know, he's autistic, nonverbal, they'll be like, oh, what completely nonverbal? And I'll go, yeah, yeah, he doesn't, he doesn't talk. And they're like, wow, I've never, I've never seen that before. And I think, oh, man, that's true. I, before I had Fred, I actually was not educated on this at all. I didn't know this really existed. And that can only be because it's not been presented to me. It's not been something that's that's been in my everyday life. And and that makes it much harder for parents and

• 37:10Speaker 01

  for also these children who are going to grow grow into adults and be in this world. The more we understand it, because that's the key of it, really, is to understand that

• 37:22Speaker 01

  these kids have so much to offer. And

• 37:25Rich Roll?

  Freddie's 11.

• 37:26Speaker 01

  He's 11 now.

• 37:27Rich Roll?

  He's 11 now.

• 37:30Rich Roll?

  I want to understand this better. I'm super interested in what it must be like to be a parent of a nonverbal autistic kid. You know, we're learning all the time that this relationship we have with these types of individuals has always been one of like, well, we don't really understand what's going on here, you know, like, it's, it makes us uncomfortable because they act out in certain ways. And this is not appropriate for polite conversation, yada, yada, yada. But more and more, we're realizing, like, these are very gifted people. They have a different lens on the world. They see everything through a perspective that we don't understand.

• 38:08Rich Roll?

  And often, they are genius in certain respects and in ways that gets overlooked. And finding a way to plug them into the one thing that lights them up, you know, we see these surprising discoveries and in what they're capable of. And I look at them as like celestial beings. They're like angels that come down and they're like, you think you know what's going on, but like, we're operating on a whole other level. And like, I know it's difficult for you to understand and we don't really know how to translate what we're experiencing in words that you could possibly understand. But there is a certain kind of like genius and a diversity of types of geniuses with these people.

• 38:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, because they're all, you know, I've had before where people say, oh, autistic people who are like that or nonverbal, they're like this, right? Or they don't like this, or they don't like that. There is no, I mean, that's why, one of the reasons why they call it a spectrum, right? Because on that spectrum, you can hate this, love this, and on this side, you the complete opposite. Um, and yeah, there's there's certain fundamentals that are like the same amongst all all these kids and adults who who are neurodivergent. But the one thing you picked on there is that they are, they are all working on a completely different energy plane to the rest of us. And angelic is a very

• 39:31Speaker 01

  good word because they're so pure. There's, there's no egos, there's no masks, there's no, they don't know the meaning of deceit, right? They don't know how to to just work for self. They, they exist within our world in a beautiful setting, right? And the way that Freddie sees the world, I learn from every day because he's, he sees the beauty in wind and trees and rain and water and just the air. And it reminds me all the time to appreciate all those, those very basic things.

• 40:08Rich Roll?

  An antidote to, you know, self obsession and being caught up in your stupid bullshit story about whatever.

• 40:13Speaker 01

  Only ever present. Yeah.

• 40:16Rich Roll?

  I can't help but think about, uh, the telepathy tapes. I had Tye Dibbs on the show and like, that is just a wild, you know, like, journey into, you know, some really confronting ideas about the capacity of of certain neurodivergent individuals. I mean, she's essentially making the argument that like, they are communicating on a, you know, in a, in a different dimension, you know, of consciousness and a shared kind of space. And it's like, it's very, you know, you're like, whoa, you know, like, okay, slow your roll here. Like, let me get my head around this. But for anybody who hasn't listened to her, uh, series, The Telepathy Tapes, it is, it's a wild ride.

• 40:58Speaker 01

  It's nuts.

• 40:58Rich Roll?

  I know they're working on a documentary that's going to come out at some point.

• 41:01Speaker 01

  I think they're gonna make a movie of it as well, you know, I heard they.

• 41:03Rich Roll?

  Oh, like a feature movie? Oh, that seems like a film that your production company should be involved in?

• 41:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 41:09Rich Roll?

  Actually, I can connect you with her.

• 41:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, that'd be good.

• 41:13Rich Roll?

  And even if it's just a thought experiment, like, I find it absolutely fascinating because from my perspective, she introduces, uh, these autistic, nonverbal people and then demonstrates through these experiments that they are able to kind of extra perceptually, like, understand things that their parents are trying to communicate, like, they can find things that their parents have hidden, you know, like, it's like all kind of, and it's like, is this a magic trick? Is this real?

• 41:44Rich Roll?

  But actually, what it is, is a vehicle for her to introduce an even more confronting idea, which is that everything we think we understand about consciousness is wrong. And that the material premise that consciousness is a product of biological complexity is actually upside down.

• 42:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:05Rich Roll?

  That the material world is actually a product of a one consciousness. Like, that's really the thesis that she's asserting there.

• 42:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:13Rich Roll?

  So it's like sort of this quantum physics kind of notion of what is reality.

• 42:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, which I've played with a lot with that. And having a son like Freddie, you know, and then listening to the tapes, the telepathy tapes, I'd never even thought about this before, before I came across them. So it kind of blew my mind, especially having a son like Fred. And then I start looking at all the possibilities because I think, I think we're narrow minded if people, if people go, no, no, no, there's no way that's, that can be true. Like, why? Because I, I look at human evolution, we didn't always talk. So there must have been a part of our brains at some point that we did communicate with each other in some form before speech.

• 43:01Rich Roll?

  Because we wouldn't have survived as a species if we couldn't figure out how to cooperate. And cooperation is contingent upon being able to communicate.

• 43:08Speaker 01

  Exactly. And I also think that might be something to do with, you know, like the long history with dogs as well. I think dogs have some kind of connection to this as well of why humans connect with, with certain animals so, so closely. But I, I just think that maybe, and this is just my weird like sort of thesis on it, but I just feel that maybe, once upon a time, we all had that ability. We all have a part of our brain that was able to do that before speech became a thing. And then as speech developed and over, you know, thousands of years, we shut that part off. And these kids that for whatever reason don't have that, that, that neuropathway to create

• 43:52Speaker 01

  speech, maybe theirs is just still active.

• 43:55Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 43:56Speaker 01

  You know? That's, that's the only way I was sort of looking at it and thinking, well, that, that would make sense from a biological standpoint, that they're still like firing there because they haven't, they haven't developed the speech.

• 44:08Rich Roll?

  So have you tried to communicate with Freddie telepathically?

• 44:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, actually, my wife always says this because my wife has got like a deep connection with Fred.

• 44:17Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 44:17Speaker 01

  And one thing that's really interesting is like, my wife, when she's in a bit of a mood, right? She won't always communicate it. She'll just sit in it. And I know her energy's off, but Freddie is so connected to her, it will throw him off if she's off. And it won't be anything that she's actually putting out. She won't be like shouting more or anything like that.

• 44:41Rich Roll?

  He's, he's feeling what she's feeling.

• 44:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 44:43Speaker 01

  And so it's not so much my connection with Fred. I've tried to do things because I'm like so into the telepathy. I'm like, I'm like sort of staring at him going, can you hear me? Can you hear me?

• 44:53Rich Roll?

  I hid the Oreos, you know, like, go find them.

• 44:57Speaker 01

  Follow my voice, Freddie. And, but my wife has had more kind of instances of when she says she's thought things or done things and then Freddie will look at her and, you know, the moments like that when especially like her energy. Energy is a big thing with Fred and her. They kind of are always in, in sync. And so when she's in a great mood, he's in a great mood. If she's down and out, he'll, he'll be stimming more. He's like out and he could be in a completely different room. But if he feels that, so that, that is, that is going across pathways. That's not just something like they can't, like if she, she could be out and about during the day, but and he could be at school and they'll be like, oh, he had a bit of a bad day today.

• 45:37Rich Roll?

  So it's not that he's reading her facial expression or anything like that.

• 45:41Speaker 01

  No, and he won't work like that either.

• 45:43Rich Roll?

  Even if he's not in his presence. It's sort of that quantum physics idea of like particles on opposite sides of the universe that are interacting simultaneously with each other.

• 45:52Speaker 01

  Which is so crazy about the telepathy tapes, right? It's like they can be in a completely side, because there's ones they've done like where they're not even in the same building. And they get them to do, like the kid, or the mum draws a picture, right? The mum draws a picture.

• 46:07Rich Roll?

  It's been like a couple of years since I listened to it, so I don't recall, but there are, yeah.

• 46:11Speaker 01

  The mum draws a picture and then, because and the kids, so my son Freddie has an iPad that he can talk to her and he's at the basic level right now where he can say, you know, I want water, right? And he can communicate through the pictures. So he associates the picture with the thing. But some of these kids now on these, these iPads, they're actually able to talk and type out the letters and the words. And so the mum will be in a completely different part of the house or like somewhere completely different and they'll ask the kid to describe what the mum is drawing. And the kid will start typing out the exact description of the drawing. And it's a new thing that they've given the mum as well.

• 46:53Speaker 01

  They've said, like the people doing the, the series, the producers will be like, okay, draw this. So the kid will have no idea what they've been asked to do. It's gnarly. Like, I highly recommend it to anyone because I think more people should have eyes on it and more great minds should have eyes on it to be able to actually do more research into it. Because I think it's, to ignore it, I think is crazy because it's something that so few people have like clearly tapped into yet, but there's something in it for sure.

• 47:21Rich Roll?

  It seems like it shouldn't be a huge leap to really craft a study that's bulletproof.

• 47:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:28Rich Roll?

  To put this to the test because, you know, there's a lot of dismissal of, of, of Kai's series and people sort of take potshots at it. Well, you know, like they're guiding the hand of the child to like push the thing and like, you know, this is all BS or whatever. It's a magic trick. But I don't know, I found her to be very earnest and she doesn't seem like she's trying to pull one over on anybody. And she seems like she's gone way out of her way to like on her own, try to create these scenarios.

• 48:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:00Rich Roll?

  In good faith.

• 48:01Speaker 01

  The one, the interesting one for me, I think is the sound guy who works on the show.

• 48:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah, like it was the crew who was freaking out.

• 48:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, the crew were like, and most of the crew were complete skeptics, they were saying, and they couldn't believe that they were like, this is gnarly. Because I think, I think that's the best one is you get like true skeptics to turn and to be like, I can't believe what I'm watching. Then you know there's something in it, I think, because you can always, if you, if you want it to happen, you can, you know, you can find ways to like.

• 48:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah, there's a sort of wishful thinking and we'll like, we'll figure out a way to get the result that we want.

• 48:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Manipulate it in some way.

• 48:39Rich Roll?

  Well, it'll be interesting when that documentary comes out and if they make a feature, that's wild.

• 48:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, it'd be very cool. Yeah.

• 48:46Rich Roll?

  This episode is brought to you by Birch. Ah, I can just feel it. Here's an honest question for you. When did you last upgrade your mattress? We replace our phones every couple of years, our running shoes every few hundred miles, but the thing we spend a third of our lives on, a decade, 15 years? Given how essential sleep is to well-being, that math strikes me as backwards. I've been sleeping on a Birch mattress for about five years now and it taught me what I'd been tolerating before. Sleeping hot, waking up stiff, blaming everything except the slab of synthetic foam underneath me. Birch, on the other hand, is built from actual materials, organic cotton, natural latex,

• 49:27Rich Roll?

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• 50:12Rich Roll?

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• 50:55Rich Roll?

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• 51:28Rich Roll?

  But I would imagine the challenge of raising this child, you know, has to be monumental. I mean, was he nonverbal from the get-go? Is this something that like developed at a certain point in his childhood? Or how did that happen?

• 51:43Speaker 01

  So me and my wife differ a little bit on this. We, she was saying that he was always like a little bit different. I, my memory of Freddie was that he was developing, you know, quite stereotypically, you know, he would do certain things that you'd expect kids of that age to do up to about 18 months, I would say.

• 52:09Speaker 01

  And then after 18 months, there was this period where he became a little bit more distant and he was going to his daycare. And they said, oh, we just want to, you know, see about getting Freddie's hearing checked because he's not answering to his name. And I was like, oh, interesting. And then I shouted him across, I was like, Fred! And he didn't turn around. And I, I had a little like sinking moment there because he'd always done that before. Like he would come across to me, would look at me and like, he would smile when he saw me. And I called him a couple of times and he didn't answer. And I was like, that's weird. I've not actually noticed that.

• 52:53Speaker 01

  And then I went up to him and like turned his, his sort of shoulder around to look at me. And then he kind of saw me and like lit up, you know? And so at that point, we were like, oh, maybe there's something wrong with his hearing. So we should get that checked. And we went through this whole process, but he kind of started to just, he regressed, I suppose, from where he was and then sort of plateaued. He sort of stayed and he, his interests were no longer wanting to play with things in a conventional manner. He started to want to like, just get things for a sensory fix. So that's, that sort of continued over the next two years really, where we were, and

• 53:36Speaker 01

  this is the thing, me and my wife went through some tough times because, and she, she really struggled and it was, it was very hard for my wife because she took a lot of responsibility for it. And she blamed herself, you know, and she was in a little bit of denial about whether it was, you know, autism or, and if I brought it up, it would be a tough conversation. She didn't really want to deal with it, which I totally understood. But it was hard for us, you know, to really communicate about it, you know, to get on the same page. Because I, I'm someone who, when, when I see a problem, I go, right, well, we gotta, we gotta fix this. What's the, what's the fix?

• 54:21Speaker 01

  And I start looking for things of the way to get it back on track. I've got that from my granddad. My granddad was very much like that, who Freddie is named after, actually, funnily enough. But my wife was more like, I think it's his ears, I think it's his hearing. And we, we sort of went down that track for a while. And then it just never improved. We saw like a lot of other kids his age, starting to talk, starting to do all the things that you'd expect them to do. And it was this kind of slow realization that he's, he's different, right? And I, I didn't know how to deal with that as a, as a dad. I was, I, you, you grow up, when you think about having kids and you think about specifically

• 55:05Speaker 01

  having a boy, you dream about, oh, I'll get to kick a football around with him. I'll get to, you know, I'll teach him how to play rugby and we'll do all these things. And I suddenly had this realization of, oh, I probably won't ever get to do that with Fred. And I struggled with that a little bit. I didn't know how to engage with him. A lot of the time when I was looking after him, it was, I felt like I was just sort of doing exactly that, just looking after him and making sure, but I couldn't engage with him. I couldn't play with him and I didn't know how to deal with it. And then I had this moment where he was, he sort of, I, I decided to get down to his

• 55:48Speaker 01

  level and like try and really engage with him. I was like, I've got, I've got to try and find something that I can engage with him on. And I had this moment where I realized that I was trying to force Freddie into my world, into the way that I saw things. And I was like, I have to understand his. How does he see this world? What does he enjoy? And I started doing all the things with like water play and like, he used to love, obsessed with stones. He'd always like play with stones. So I started doing that with him and playing with the stones. And I saw this interaction that I hadn't had with him for a couple of years where he kind of looked to me and like, he started enjoying the play and like smiling with me. And we were playing again, right?

• 56:32Speaker 01

  And that, that was my first moment of going, oh, it's not, it's not about me and what I want. This is all about how he sees this world and I have to jump into that. I have to jump into how he sees it.

• 56:46Speaker 01

  And that was a big turning point for me personally, at least of how I now parent Freddie. And it's so different to truly my daughter, who's, who's not neurodivergent, you know, she's neurotypical, talks enough for her and Freddie. And

• 57:02Rich Roll?

  She got double the

• 57:03Speaker 01

  Oh, she got all of it. Yeah. But she's a beautiful soul and an amazing little sister for Freddie. She's perfect for him. So caring and always looking after him and does like his therapy with him and stuff. But yeah, it's, it's something that we've worked on, right? It's like, it's a process and it will be forever a process with Fred, you know, because we, we're in a great stage right now where he's developing really well. He's had a lot of therapy. He does an ABA therapy here in the States, which is amazing for him. And, you know, they always, these kids, they surprise you what, what they can do. And sometimes you think, I'm not sure if he'll ever be able to do that. And then one day he just decides he's going to do it.

• 57:48Rich Roll?

  It's a really beautiful story. I mean, I think every parent can relate to, you know, that exercise that we go through when a child is born is like, well, who is this person going to be? Like, are they gonna, like, like you have this fantasy, you're projecting your own identity, like trying to imprint your kid, like, oh, we're going to do all these things and it's going to be amazing. It almost never, that's never what it is. Like they're going to confront you with whatever it is inside of you that needs to grow and evolve and change. Like it's a, you know, they become these gurus and these, these amazing teachers and they have, you know, wisdom that we lack or didn't get, you know, that we're meant to learn, right?

• 58:29Rich Roll?

  And you go from this guy who is like, this is a problem we need to fix to like, I'm embracing this person because they're actually nourishing my life in a way that I never even actually thought of and, and just appreciating the beauty of it while also, you know, acknowledging the challenge it must be, you know, like just the amount of patience and, and kind of centeredness, the pressure that it puts on your marriage, the time and attention it takes away from your daughter. Like it has to be a Herculean effort to try to thread the needle and figure out how to parent this child in a healthy and responsible way.

• 59:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, me and my wife are always, you know, we're always talking about that. We're always talking about how do we be the best parents for both of them, you know, because they need such different things. We also have an amazing support network in our family. We, we moved back to where both my mom and Laura's parents are and her sister who help out massively with Freddie.

• 59:31Speaker 01

  So we have an amazing unit of, of people. So we're very fortunate in that sense that we have that. But the bottom line is we have to always be open to, to change and to things that

• 59:44Speaker 01

  we weren't expecting to do, you know? We have to like think, okay, what's best for him now? And he's, you know, he's always, he's growing and he's adapting and he's changing. So, you know, I think in the long term, that's always going to be a year on year process, you know, and sometimes day to day process. And, but he's been, even with all the challenges of that, he's been the biggest gift in our life. I mean, both of our children are, but Freddie in particular, because he's changed the way that I look at every person I ever meet now. Before I, I had Fred, you know, you'd be quick to kind of, if someone came up to you in the street, they was a little bit off or like spoke to you differently.

• 1:00:26Speaker 01

  And I remember people saying like, oh, guys, a little bit, he's a little bit off, he's a little bit weird. Maybe they are, but, but sometimes now, I think I always, anyone that comes up to me or I, I speak to them and there's, there's a little bit, oh, I think they're, if, if they're, they're neurodivergent. Before I wasn't educated on that, whereas now because of Freddie, I'm so much more open to meeting every different type of person.

• 1:00:56Rich Roll?

  Suspending your judgment.

• 1:00:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and almost like no, like you don't, yeah, suspend any judgment. Yeah. Because you realize, you start looking at people anyway, when, when you're a parent, I think you start looking at everyone as like, oh, they were once a kid. You know, you start thinking about who they were when they were very little. Like I see kids on the, you know, guys on the street and stuff here in LA. And I'm like, oh man, that's someone's, someone's baby, you know? So I think it does something for you anyway as a parent, but with someone like Freddie, you just become much more open to, to, to everyone, I suppose.

• 1:01:34Rich Roll?

  The conversation around neurodivergence, like the sort of public square discourse around it is very interesting right now because we have a whole sector of society at the, you know, kind of highest earner bracket, like these tech oligarchs. And they love to throw the word neurodivergence around and it feels a bit irresponsible and cavalier. Like maybe you're slightly Asperger-y or whatever and, you know, maybe that allows you to focus on your, building your startup or whatnot. But that's very different. Like I feel like it's almost a badge of honor, you know, like to be the very productive, like highly successful neurodivergent person. And that's very different from, you know, what you're experiencing with your son and

• 1:02:19Rich Roll?

  this like, you know, like on a far end of this spectrum with, you know, being nonverbal, trying to understand this child, how do I emotionally connect with him? How do I enter this world? Like what is the world that he's experiencing? Like, do you have a sense of that? Like, how is he processing his environment?

• 1:02:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, that's the thing, because he's never spoken.

• 1:02:39Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:02:39Speaker 01

  There's this thing of like, I suppose.

• 1:02:44Speaker 01

  If I didn't say, we always have that hope that one day he'll speak, then I'd, I'd be lying, I think, because my wife has never heard the word mummy, you know, and

• 1:02:58Speaker 01

  that's something that I think she'll dream about until he says it or doesn't, right?

• 1:03:03Rich Roll?

  And that's not anything to be ashamed about. This is very human.

• 1:03:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's just a human, for a mum, I think, for their child to, to be able to communicate on the most basic, you know, form of being able to say their name. But yeah, the neurodivergent thing is, is thrown around a lot and it's, as I said before, it's such a broad spectrum of what that means. Uh, but yeah, I mean, it comes into the fact that, you know, one is, is in the bracket of special needs, right? Where that requires.

• 1:03:36Rich Roll?

  These people cannot take care of themselves alone.

• 1:03:39Speaker 01

  No. I mean, Freddie could, but he would, you know, be obese, I think, because he would eat all the snacks in the house. But so we have to, we have to curb that.

• 1:03:47Rich Roll?

  Especially since you can't hide them because he'll, he'll telepathically know where they are.

• 1:03:52Speaker 01

  Every time. Yeah. He's actually amazing at that. But for me, they're the two clear sort of depictions, right? One is, because you hear a lot of people going, well, well, I'm autistic, I'm this and I'm that. And I, me and my wife would go, oh, okay, cool.

• 1:04:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you have to bristle at that, I would imagine.

• 1:04:09Speaker 01

  But you, you also understand that

• 1:04:13Speaker 01

  it is a broad spectrum and they're, they're very different, they're very different categories. I think the problem is there is not enough education of there is clearly this one that we're in that is very different. And, and that's not saying, you know, there's, there's children being raised with a, the sort of highly functioning autism that can be more complicated in a lot of ways than, than what we have. You know, like Freddie on a day-to-day basis actually is, is beautiful to hang around with and he's like, he's not difficult, but there's times where having him and not being able to communicate, like if he's ill, for instance, not being able to ask him, where does the pain, where's the pain? Where, where are you struck? Like, what is it you're feeling?

• 1:04:58Speaker 01

  You have to guess. You're like, I don't know what the problem is. And then you try and take his temperature and then you're like, oh, he's got a temperature now, like what's, but he's not showing us where the pain is. Times like that are brutal because you just don't know what to do. Whereas at least in, with someone that's verbal, you can, you can at least communicate with them. But, you know, Freddie doesn't, there's, there's times where I'm sure it will be extremely hard with people that are highly functioning because there's things that they do and can't do that that will make their day a nightmare if they can't do certain things and stuff. Whereas Fred is okay in that kind of area. We can take Fred on a plane, we can move around with him. He doesn't have that kind of like OCD element. So there's positives and negatives to both sides, but I just think there is a

• 1:05:43Speaker 01

  a very broad lack of understanding of there's two different types, you know, that need to be understood.

• 1:05:49Rich Roll?

  In terms of understanding, what is it that you want people to know and get about this condition that you think is misunderstood, that would be helpful for somebody when they, you know, encounter somebody and like, how do you act? Like, how are you supposed to think about this? What is a right-minded, like ethical approach to better understanding?

• 1:06:11Speaker 01

  I think that's a great question because

• 1:06:15Speaker 01

  I would say,

• 1:06:18Speaker 01

  broadly speaking, I would say that people would think that when you first see Freddie, because he's not talking, because he's doing little things like he'll hold his hand and he might be having his little movie that he has, because it's like a comfort thing for him. That he's not smart or he doesn't know what's going on in the room.

• 1:06:38Speaker 01

  Freddie knows more than most of us than what's going on in the room. He's sensing energy all the time. He's like operating on what I believe to be a completely different energy plane. But he's also, he understands so much more than what he lets on. So just because he's not listening in the same way or he's not responding in the same way as a neurotypical person. He's there, he's present, he's understanding what's going on and he understands a lot what's being spoken about. Uh, he just doesn't show it. So I think the, there is like a fear sometimes of like, oh, I don't know how to communicate with this person. I talk to Fred like I talk to anyone. I just speak to him, chat to him. Like when we're in the car, I'll talk about all sorts of stuff.

• 1:07:21Speaker 01

  He's not responding in the same way that my wife or my daughter does. But I know he's taking it in and I know he understands because we've got to a point now where his comprehension is, like I can just ask him to do stuff and he'll come and he'll do it. Um, I know a kid, Max, who's the showrunner of Umbrella Academy, the showrunner, Steve Blatman, very good friend of mine. His son, Max, is three years older than Fred. Very, very similar to Freddie, non-verbal. And he's now at a point where you could literally like just talk to him and like very easily and he's, he's comprehending everything. That would be my biggest thing to anyone. If you encounter someone that's like that, a child, no matter what age, if they're an adult, try talking to them.

• 1:08:03Rich Roll?

  Right. But don't talk to them as if they're a child that can't understand. Talk to them like a normal person.

• 1:08:07Speaker 01

  Just talk to them perfectly normally. And, uh, and that's also liberating for you as well to, because, because you just go, oh yeah, they're just the same as me. And that's the thing is like, I think that, dare I say fear, there's like a fear of interacting with someone like that because it's just so different. You know, and that's why, like, I mean, I think in the UK it's definitely been swept under the rug and like they're put aside and the, the schools are really, really hard to come by. You know, it's not, it's not talked about enough. And we found, like, one big thing that me and Laura try to do is to build more of a, a community and an online community. We did a lot of YouTube videos during COVID when we went through this diagnosis with Freddie.

• 1:08:47Speaker 01

  And we were like, we should, we should put something out there for like other parents that might be going through this because we knew how hard it was. And there was nowhere to turn. I was looking for videos on, on the support, this sort of thing of like, how do you deal with this? Like, what do you, where do you go?

• 1:09:02Rich Roll?

  That's so surprising. You would think there'd be a lot of that.

• 1:09:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, there may be more now. I haven't looked in a while, but at that point, that was in, you know, like 2020, 2019. Um, and there wasn't, there wasn't really.

• 1:09:13Rich Roll?

  And what is the message that you want to convey to the parent who is at the beginning of one of these journeys?

• 1:09:20Speaker 01

  That it's going to be okay. You know, because you really, really think it's not. And if you, especially if you're in a marriage and a happy marriage that you want, that is like got love in it, but you, you differ. That it will be okay if you work together and you try and find a common ground on how to work through it, that I'll say that it's not gonna always be that hard because there's times early on in Freddie's life where we were like, what, what will we do? Like, what happens if, you know, he, because there's also things like party training and stuff, right? That they don't have the comprehension, Freddie didn't have the comprehension to know that he needs to go to the toilet

• 1:10:06Speaker 01

  for a long time. So we had to guess when he was gonna go and put a, you know, a diaper on him to guess when he might need to go. So this constant stress of like, oh, what if we, and you feel like you can't leave the house and all that sort of thing.

• 1:10:20Speaker 01

  And as I say, like they surprise you, right? Because one day Freddie, Freddie just walked up to where the cupboard was, where the diapers were, just picked them up, got a diaper out and then handed it to me. Right? And you have these moments where you go, oh my God, like he just handed me the diaper. And then just recently, like a few weeks ago. And that's what a big thing about our therapy here in LA.

• 1:10:46Speaker 01

  He's like more motivated, it seems to do stuff. He started swimming on his own. I was telling you about this earlier. He started like, he kind of invented his own stroke and we, he wanted to push into the deep end of the pool. And we're like, I don't think that's a good idea. Uh, but he loves swimming so much. He loves water, but just doesn't have that comprehension to learn how to swim or like to teach him how to swim. And he kept pushing to go in the deep end and me and my wife, well, well, let's just stay by him and see what happens. And then we let go of him and my wife was under the water with her goggles. So she, she came up, she was like, he's actually swimming. He's holding himself up. And he just started swimming.

• 1:11:23Rich Roll?

  Hmm. Like just figured it out.

• 1:11:24Speaker 01

  Figured it out. Yeah. Yeah. And because of a desire to want to do it. And then the other big thing is he started, he just out of nowhere went and sat down on the, on the toilet and peed in the toilet.

• 1:11:35Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 1:11:36Speaker 01

  And that's at 11 now, right? So like, this is a long, long process. So I think what I'll say to parents who are at the beginning of this journey, like sit tight. You're gonna, it's all gonna be good. Like we're on a, it's a longer journey with, with children like Freddie. But if you kind of strap yourself in, it will, it will just continually get better and easier. And if you give them the right help and aid, they'll get there, they'll figure it out.

• 1:12:05Rich Roll?

  We were joking earlier, I was saying, he's such a different type of intelligence.

• 1:12:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:11Rich Roll?

  That there's an analogy with like AI, like in the way that AI can like look at a data set and extract an insight that never occurred to humans.

• 1:12:20Rich Roll?

  Freddie might be the person who loves swimming and then figures out a brand new stroke that no one ever thought of. And he just, he doesn't need a swim instructor. He just needs to figure it out. And there's something about like the intense focus of a neurodivergent person, once they lock in on like the thing that lights them up. It's like sort of get out of the way.

• 1:12:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:40Rich Roll?

  You know, maybe it's not swimming, but at some point it seems like he will find his thing.

• 1:12:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, everyone says that.

• 1:12:45Rich Roll?

  And then like, you know, his life will sort of blossom and it'll be easier to understand like how to meet those needs.

• 1:12:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's it. Like he, he is very, when it's something that he wants to do, he has a. A a hyper, hyper level of focus. And that was the thing. He was so determined to get that deep end. I couldn't stop him. Every time I put him back in the shallow, he just like pushed back to the shallow, to the deep end. And he wanted to get in there. He wanted to feel what that was like and push himself to do it. And that was the first time I'd really seen that with him, where he was like just absolute determination of like, no, no, no, no, you can keep pushing me back all day. I'm gonna keep going there and you're gonna see that I can do this. So that was magical for us, especially his parents who, he loves water. So there's always this fear of him falling into water, which we've had a couple of close calls with that on

• 1:13:36Speaker 01

  on holiday. A few years ago, he he fell in and I turned. Me and my brother-in-law Greg, we turned and we're like, what was that? And we couldn't see what had happened. And then someone screamed that Fred had fell in. And me and Greg like sprinted across the lawn and got into him and he was, he was going under at that time. And he was, you know, had a bit of a cough and stuff and he was fine. I mean, yeah, actually gave my wife full-on trauma, but it was, it was a very close call, right? Um, so from then on, it was like, oh my God, how are we gonna? We've got to find a way to teach him to swim. Because he loves water so much. We don't want to take that away from him, but we, we need to find a way to, to do that. And we'd seen loads of different swimming teachers that were like, I'll get him to swim, I'll get him to swim. And it was, it was difficult.

• 1:14:18Rich Roll?

  He's not having it. And then he just decided, don't worry, I got it.

• 1:14:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, just one day, one day, just one morning was like, no, no, I'm doing this.

• 1:14:26Rich Roll?

  It's making you like,

• 1:14:29Rich Roll?

  you're being compelled to become a better man, a better parent and a better husband. Like you can't get away with stuff, like the intensity of what your relationship with your wife must be, like it's at a different level than like a normal marriage. Like you gotta work your shit out because like the stakes are high and we have to figure out how to parent this kid. And so you're kind of being called upon to, you know, self-actualize so that you can, you know, be the person who can be the right dad to this child and be the best husband that you can to your wife, you know? You can't, you can't sleepwalk through this.

• 1:15:04Speaker 01

  No, yeah, it's uh, and you have to be willing, I think, I think I've learned in, certainly in my marriage. I've had to learn to uh, look in the mirror a lot. I think we both have to do that and just go, where was I responsible in the downfall of this situation and how do we grow from this?

• 1:15:24Rich Roll?

  Especially in light of the fact that you live the circus performer life, like you have to go off to Bulgaria or like Australia or whatever to do these shows and you're gone.

• 1:15:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:35Rich Roll?

  And that pressure that that puts on your wife.

• 1:15:37Speaker 01

  Oh my God, yeah. She, she was an absolute saint through those first few years of my, my kids being born and like that, you know, between, I guess the first year of truly being born and Fred was like three. I was away so much shooting Umbrella Academy over in Toronto and I would, I would jump back as often as I could. But I had to go through this learning curve of like, I would, I would jump back in at home and be like, right, great. Let's all hang out. What we're doing. You know, I want to spend time with my wife and stuff and I just like try and cruise back in. And my wife was like, I need to get out of here. I need to get out and have some space. And I'm like, what? I've been away for weeks. Let's like hang out.

• 1:16:20Rich Roll?

  It's sort of like your turn, dude.

• 1:16:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:22Rich Roll?

  You know?

• 1:16:22Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 1:16:22Rich Roll?

  Glad you're home.

• 1:16:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I need some time. So, and that, that kind of mentality of the two of us clashing on that was a tough period because I just couldn't get my head around it. And my dad actually, who's not the greatest of like wisdom for parenting skill at times. But he said something to me that changed my whole perception of it. He's like, you know, think about it this way, Tom, is like, she's thinking about what's right for you. She's thinking about what's right for the kids. She's organized everything for the kids all the time. She's like trying to sort out. So when you're away, she's doing this, she's doing that. Who's thinking about her? Who's making sure that she's okay? And I was like, oh my God. It was like this kind of like lightbulb moment. And

• 1:17:08Speaker 01

  and I, I went and spoke to my, and we were in a particularly bad place at this point. And I went and spoke to her about it and I said, I, I understand. I need to give you more. I need to think about you more and think about what you need and I've not been doing that. And, and she was like, she was like, your dad said that.

• 1:17:30Speaker 01

  And I was like, yeah, weird, right?

• 1:17:32Rich Roll?

  Being a mother is hard enough.

• 1:17:33Speaker 01

  Oh my goodness.

• 1:17:34Rich Roll?

  You know, a thankless job, but you know, to have to be a mother on that level and have you be gone. It's like, fuck yeah, you should be thinking about.

• 1:17:42Speaker 01

  A hundred percent, yeah.

• 1:17:43Rich Roll?

  Sure that her needs are getting met.

• 1:17:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, it was, uh, it was a real kind of like moment of clarity for me. Um, and we did, I don't know if you've ever done this with, with your wife, but have you ever done love languages?

• 1:17:55Rich Roll?

  Yes.

• 1:17:56Speaker 01

  I think they're amazing.

• 1:17:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:57Speaker 01

  When I figured those out for my wife, I then knew what she needed to receive love from me, right? And I was trying to do the same thing before. I was like, she just wants a hug, so I go try and give her a hug. She's like, I don't need a hug from you, you know? I, her, her love language is a, uh, acts of service. And uh, what's the other one? Acts of service and words of affirmation. She was like, it means more to me that you write me a letter or a card. Or you take the kids from me for an afternoon and say, babe, you go chill out, do what you need to do. I got the kids.

• 1:18:35Rich Roll?

  But now that you know that, you know what to do.

• 1:18:37Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:18:38Rich Roll?

  You know?

• 1:18:38Speaker 01

  It's amazing.

• 1:18:39Rich Roll?

  And that instinct, like there's a problem. She wants me to solve it. No, sometimes she just wants you to listen, you know, and be present with her.

• 1:18:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:49Rich Roll?

  You know, all of these things that, you know, we should know that we know.

• 1:18:52Speaker 01

  We just don't. Yeah. I mean, I, I struggle with that one because do you do that same thing where you like go, well, here's what you could do?

• 1:18:57Rich Roll?

  Right, of course. This is not helpful. Yeah, this is actually making it worse.

• 1:19:02Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Yeah. She's like, sometimes I just need you to say, that really sucks. I go, okay, no suggestion? No, just just like, no, that sucks. That's good enough.

• 1:19:12Rich Roll?

  Speaking of things that really suck, uh, one of the things we share in common is, is uh, our journeys through uh, lower back.

• 1:19:21Speaker 01

  Lower back injuries.

• 1:19:22Rich Roll?

  How's that for, that was a pretty good segue.

• 1:19:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:19:24Rich Roll?

  I made that as graceful as I possibly could.

• 1:19:27Speaker 01

  Well played.

• 1:19:27Rich Roll?

  Um, ours are a little bit different, but I know that you, you know, like the audience doesn't need to hear about mine. They've heard enough of it, but like you've had a, a different but similar kind of experience trying to figure out how to alleviate like debilitating pain in your lower back. And like, this is just, the more people I talk to, like this is an epidemic. It's chronic, you know, like so many people are suffering and there's so much confusion about what to do and all these new alternative therapies. Should I get surgery? Should I not? And there's so many different types of back pain disorders. So what is yours, Ben?

• 1:20:01Speaker 01

  Oh man, well, uh, I've had two separate uh, herniated discs, one L5S1, uh, one L4L5. Uh, one, the L5S1 was my worst one, I would say. Uh, and I had that for a good year and a half and I was going to see, I was, I was working on Black Sale, it was a TV show at the time when I was dealing with that. And I was in excruciating pain every day, you know, for like a year and a half before I got it sorted. And I would go and see, you know, various different back experts. And you were talking about this like,

• 1:20:34Rich Roll?

  So many.

• 1:20:35Speaker 01

  I got a guy.

• 1:20:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:36Speaker 01

  He'll sort you out.

• 1:20:37Rich Roll?

  There's so many guys out there.

• 1:20:39Speaker 01

  I don't know about these guys. I don't know about them, but they uh, they all say the same thing, like ultimately you're gonna have to have a disectomy, you're gonna have to have surgery. Um, and then my, my mate's dad, he'd just been over to the Cayman Islands to have one with a company called Regenex, which was quite a new company at the time, Regenex. Uh, but he did a, a stem cell injection into his and he said.

• 1:21:03Rich Roll?

  Is that where Mel Gibson, Mel Gibson?

• 1:21:05Speaker 01

  No, he went to South America somewhere, didn't he?

• 1:21:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:08Speaker 01

  Panama?

• 1:21:09Rich Roll?

  I don't know. Yeah.

• 1:21:10Speaker 01

  There's one in Panama.

• 1:21:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah, maybe.

• 1:21:12Speaker 01

  Uh, there's a bunch down there.

• 1:21:14Rich Roll?

  Um, and some of this is sus, you know, like it's, it's scary, it's scary.

• 1:21:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, finding the right one. And that's the thing, in, in the, in America, the, the level of stem cells that you need that would normally like fix a problem like that, you, you can't culture stem cells in America. It's not legal to culture them. That's why they all do it down there. Um, or I think there's a place in Europe that they're allowed to do it. But everything's done in South America because there's no limit on what you do. And the Cayman Islands is where they can culture them. So he, he went and had it there. And had an amazing experience. It, it healed his, his herniated disc. And I was literally like a week away from having the back surgery. I'd booked the back surgery and my, my best mate Zach, it was his dad. He was like, I would, I would definitely speak to my dad before you, you go through with the surgery because

• 1:22:01Speaker 01

  he was saying that a lot, I mean, I didn't know about this at this time, but he was saying that a lot of people who have that disectomy, they might get some alleviated pain initially, but the same problem's gonna occur again because you're not really fixing it. You're just kind of snipping off the disc and then it's still, and it's actually weakened the disc then. So I was in this like whole kind of haze, but I spoke to his dad and he was like, you should definitely like speed them. So he gave me the number of this clinic, Regenex, and they have a clinic in Denver. So I spoke to them and they said, yeah, you're, you'll be a candidate for, for the stem cell procedure in your disc. So I traveled across to Denver. And had, like, it was like a two day thing. I went in, they did a bone marrow draw.

• 1:22:44Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 1:22:45Speaker 01

  Drew out the stem cells from that and then under ultrasound, they injected it into the disc. And it was really painful after that one because at that time it's it's kind of advanced more now. But at that point, it creates like a, an inflammatory response. So the, the disc kind of swells. So it swells even more into the nerves. So you kind of become paralyzed for like twenty more hours.

• 1:23:10Rich Roll?

  The impingement on the nerve roots is even more severe. And the ultrasound is so they can guide the needle precisely to where it gets, they're literally injecting into the disc itself.

• 1:23:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So the stem cells go in and then they, they inject PRP, a very specific advanced PRP around the disc to encourage the blood flow. Cause a lot of the time they say the reason that disc herniated disc can't heal by themselves. Cause everything else in the body gets blood flow, it'll heal. It doesn't get enough.

• 1:23:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah, there's no, there's no blood flow in the disc.

• 1:23:42Speaker 01

  No, there's nothing. No, it's just like cartilage, right? So uh, the, they put in the PRP to help the encouragement of the healing process to activate those cells. And then I was, I said, but the pain sort of stayed there for, uh, the, the initial like bigger inflammatory pain that went away. So I could walk around again after like twenty four hours. But the sciatica was still there, right? And I was thinking, I'm not sure if this is gonna, if this has worked because I don't feel any different. And then five weeks later, I was, we were on a family holiday in the, the south of England. And every day for the last like year and a half, I'd gotten out of bed and had this like pull in my, in my leg. Every time I stood, stood up, it was like this dragging pain down my leg.

• 1:24:27Speaker 01

  I stood up out of bed and for the first time in a year and a half, it just wasn't there. And I was like, where's the pain? And then I started walking around and was like, oh my God, the pain's gone. And that was the first moment I was like, that stuff actually works. And it was a really significant herniated disc as well. It was like pushing deep into the, the nerve root. And every surgeon was like, you're a hundred percent gonna need surgery. There's no way you'll fix this any other way. And then I got another injury, the L five, uh, L four, L five about three years later. Um, and I went back to Regenex, but I went to one that was now open in the UK. And they'd advanced it more from there. There was a PRP, an advanced PRP, you know, three different types of PRP and injection.

• 1:25:13Speaker 01

  So it was an even easier process because I went in, did a blood draw. That afternoon I went back in, uh, and they inject three different types, one into the disc, one surrounding the disc and went, and then one on the way out. And I felt relief from that like the next day. It was so quick. Um, so I'm a, I'm a big advocate of that kind of.

• 1:25:35Rich Roll?

  And it hasn't returned?

• 1:25:36Speaker 01

  No, no. And I, I mean, I do do a lot of things to, to strengthen that area and I do a lot of like glue work and a lot of uh, retraction stuff to make sure that I'm, I'm trying to, you know, keep that stable, that area. But no, I've had, I've had no sciatica at all since that and I've lived with it for a long time.

• 1:25:54Rich Roll?

  Uh, yeah, living with that kind of sciatica, with that level of like nerve root impingement. I mean, you just, you're just, you're never not thinking about it. It's like with every time you move your body, it's like with you all the time. And you know, for me, it got to the point, I couldn't sleep, like my leg was just in so much pain and it would, you know. I'm so glad I'm on the other side of that and I'm so cautious about doing things that are gonna put me in that position again. I mean, my condition was very different. It wasn't really a disc degeneration situation. And I do have a little, some slight degeneration. Um, but that's not what needed to be corrected in my case. It was a different situation. It's called spondylolysis, but it was L five S one.

• 1:26:37Speaker 01

  Was that pushing in? So when you said it was down the, on the nerve root, how, if it's not herniated, how is that pushing? That's like the whole thing is retracted onto it.

• 1:26:45Rich Roll?

  The, the disc was compressed, but fundamentally like, like if this is S one and this is L five. And this is like, I'm looking at you like this way, like, it was sort of like the, it was like sitting like the, it was like pushed forward and just crunching on the nerve root. And you know, this thing had to get moved, you know, basically moved back. It was like a, you know, like an engineering situation.

• 1:27:08Speaker 01

  And what do they say what that was from? Like, is that years of like?

• 1:27:12Rich Roll?

  It's a congenital condition called pars defect that a certain number of people are born with, where you have a hairline fracture on the bony backside of one of your vertebrae. And I think many people could live asymptomatic their whole life, but I've done a billion flip turns and run too many miles. And like all the pounding over the years, like obviously exacerbated that and made, made that L five unstable and you know, just slowly, like the symptoms increased over like a ten year period. Like I first noticed some numbness in my foot in like two thousand and ten, you know, and was diagnosed with this then and told like I was gonna need surgery and proceeded to train through it and deny it and see a bunch of guys and just try to manage it.

• 1:27:57Rich Roll?

  Until, you know, around like two thousand and eighteen, it started to get completely out of control. And still it was many, it wasn't until twenty twenty five that I got the surgery. And I have numbness in my foot and that numbness, you know, inches up towards, on, on my shin, up towards my knee. And I still have most of that numbness. I probably always will because I waited so long.

• 1:28:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, cause it's been under that pressure for so long.

• 1:28:21Rich Roll?

  It was, it was a successful procedure. And when you look at my MRI and my X-rays, like you can see some degeneration in the discs. So perhaps like what you did might be appropriate for me at some point. But when I was seeing all the guys, I did have PRP, which not for nothing is actually really painful when, at least for me it was. Uh, and it did absolutely nothing for me.

• 1:28:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, the PRP is like, not all PRP is, uh, is equal, I think, in that sense. Because that's the one thing I think companies like Regenex pride themselves on is the, the, the, the type of PRP. And it's specific for the injury. I, my aunt actually had a very similar situation to you. She had a, she had PRP in her elbow from a, from a tendonitis thing and had a very similar situation to you, very painful. And I was surprised because I was like, my experience of that is not, is not the same. Um, and it's all, I've always had a really good experience. And I think

• 1:29:20Speaker 01

  if you're going to, you know, I don't know who you went to there and I can't speak for them, but like, I just know that if you're, if you're at the right place, they can, it can be really beneficial. Um, but there are some definite ones there that, out there that have had bad experiences for sure.

• 1:29:34Rich Roll?

  Speaking of bad experiences, this is another, this is another segue.

• 1:29:39Speaker 01

  It's getting good.

• 1:29:40Rich Roll?

  I'm gonna crush, I'm gonna crush this transition. Am I right in thinking that, uh, you have put, uh, alcohol in the rearview mirror?

• 1:29:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:49Rich Roll?

  So I'm interested in the story behind that.

• 1:29:52Speaker 01

  Um, well, growing up, I mean, I, I was in a very working class background. Uh, so drinking, drinking culture was very much, you work through the week, the weekend comes, you hit it, right? And you just drink Friday, Saturday night, you recover Sunday, you're about to work Monday.

• 1:30:11Rich Roll?

  Hell yeah.

• 1:30:11Speaker 01

  Right? That's, that's the way. And I, I fell into that straight away. I mean, from a very young age, I mean, in the, the place that I grew up, kids were trying to get alcohol from like, you know, thirteen, fourteen, you're just trying to, and you wanna, you wanna know what that feels like because you're seeing all your older peers doing it all the time. So I suppose I started very early in that side of things and, uh, I was also, you know, part of like rugby communities and stuff and the rugby uh, mentality is, is drinking a lot. I went to drama school where you drink a lot. So I was always doing it. And then in, somewhere in my twenties, I suppose the, the big turning point for me was when

• 1:30:55Speaker 01

  I did Black Sails, that, the, a show about pirates and we got into, we were told to get into like great shape. I, I just thought I'd put it on hold anyway because I didn't want the extra calories. I wanted to, to perform at my best. And, you know, we were being put through these crazy workouts. So I just didn't go hand in hand to go and drink and then try and work out the way we were doing. And that was the, the big point really, when it was the first time where I actually just stopped drinking for a bit. And I just got the most amazing benefit from it. So I was like, wow, I feel completely different. I feel like so much like clearer and I feel like more energy. Um, and then I'd go through periods where I would go to a wedding or I'd go on a night out or whatever, and I would drink again.

• 1:31:41Speaker 01

  And it would just take me like a full week to get back to where I was before that night. And then I started assessing why I was, why, why I needed to drink. Cause I was like, I don't really feel that great afterwards. I really don't feel great afterwards. And I really don't feel that great when I'm on it. I almost become out of control of who I really am. And I sort of saw myself becoming another person. My wife always said to me, like, you're not a great drunk. So I always knew that it didn't really serve me that well. And I thought, well, why do I need to do it? What's, what is it about drinking that is so great? And I suppose I started assessing the wall. It makes me feel like freer when I'm out with all my mates and stuff and they're all doing it.

• 1:32:26Speaker 01

  So it's kind of like this group mentality thing. So I thought, well, I wonder if I can start hitting nights out with my mates. And let's see how good a time I can have when I don't drink a thing. And the hardest thing with that, especially my mates in the UK, was the peer pressure because they all, they're like, what's wrong with you? Why aren't you drinking? It's, you should be drinking. It's like, there's something wrong with you if you're not drinking. So I had to kind of push past that. And also not be any worse to hang out with. I had to be like the funnest guy on, on, on the tour sort of thing. So I would be the one like pushing to go to like karaoke at the end of the night. I'd be like pushing the night.

• 1:33:06Rich Roll?

  You're overcompensating.

• 1:33:07Speaker 01

  Kind of overcompensating, exactly. Yeah. But then you find like this, this setting where you can sit in it and go, yeah, I feel good. I can hang out with all my mates. I can have a laugh. But I wake up in the morning and I can get up and go for a run or go to the gym.

• 1:33:21Rich Roll?

  Five minutes after they're giving you a hard time, they've completely forgotten about it. Like you think everyone's walking around thinking about you, they're not.

• 1:33:28Speaker 01

  They're not, they're not at all. Yeah. So that was, so yeah. And then it just became something I did, you know, less and less. And then to the point where now I think I'm over ten years now, over, yeah, well over ten years, I haven't drank.

• 1:33:46Rich Roll?

  It's, I love that story. Um, you know, recovery is a recurring theme on this show and, you know, I talked to lots of recovering addicts and alcoholics, et cetera. Um, but I also talked to people like yourself who are like, it was mildly problematic in my life, but it wasn't like I had to suffer some tragedy or like my life didn't crash and burn in some way where I had this, you know, epiphany and a reckoning and all of that. Like, it doesn't have to be that way. It was just a recognition slowly over time. Like, is this really working? Is this really worth it? Like, what do I want in my life? Could my life be better without this? And like, making that decision and like, sticking to it. Like, this is, I think,

• 1:34:28Rich Roll?

  emblematic of this cultural shift that we're seeing right now, the embrace of the NA lifestyle, your fellow Brit, Andy Ramage. I don't know if you know him. Yeah, so he's been here, he's a friend. He actually has a documentary coming out called Going Dry. All about this. It's really cool. And he, he was the co-founder of like, One Year No Beer, which I know was a big thing in the UK. I don't if you remember that. But just this movement of like, it doesn't have to be this way. Like, we can go out and be ourselves and have fun, and we don't need this. And our lives are better. And look at how we're flourishing as a result of putting our energy into things that actually matter. And like, kind of transgressing the momentum and gestalt of culture that's pushing it. Like, this is what you have to, you know,

• 1:35:12Rich Roll?

  if you want to fit in, we all want to be members of a tribe, and we want to fit in, and we want to be with our peers and all of that. We don't want to do things that are going to alienate ourselves from our friends, or put us in a position to miss out on having a good time. So, I think appreciating like, that desire, while also providing a healthier alternative, so that you can still show up with your friends, have a good time, and not have to do that. Like, I think it's a really cool thing. And I've seen these cultural norms shift and change. Like, you know, Gen Z, millennials to a large extent, like, they're just not consuming alcohol. In a way that, you know, like, I'm much older than you, but like, it was just, I mean, if you weren't going to drink, forget about it. Like, it was just expected.

• 1:35:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, on, in, in the UK, it was almost, at times, like a nightly thing. You know, before, sometimes I thought about, it's like, we're all alcoholics, because we were drinking every day. And now, the, the youth, like, I look at my, my niece and my nephew, who are like, 21 and 19, and they'll go out and drink, but it's nowhere near what we used to do. Like, hardly at all, in comparison.

• 1:36:23Rich Roll?

  There's also much better drugs now. You don't have to worry about.

• 1:36:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, the hardest.

• 1:36:27Rich Roll?

  In a scary way. But, yeah, the consume, alcohol is like, why, like, it's not as appealing, you know? And you, we're seeing this change. It's super interesting.

• 1:36:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. And do you think that's, do you think that's because of like, parents and stuff? Do you think it's because of, you know, we were talking before about like, generational influence? Do you think it's them seeing?

• 1:36:44Rich Roll?

  It might be them seeing their parents and saying, like, not for me.

• 1:36:47Speaker 01

  I'm alright, yeah.

• 1:36:48Rich Roll?

  Um, but I don't know, but this has been going on for thousands of years. You know, like, why now?

• 1:36:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, I think we saw smoking as well, right? People, I know a lot of my, my peers didn't want to smoke because they saw their parents smoke, or like, a parent had died from smoking.

• 1:37:02Rich Roll?

  But it skipped a generation. I'm seeing a lot of young, because of vapes and stuff like that. Like, the accessibility of, like, marijuana vapes, and nicotine vapes, and all of these kind of higher-grade pharmaceutical alternatives to alcohol are almost more readily available than trying to get somebody to buy you beer at the 7-Eleven. Like, that's, that's harder than what's going on. And I say that as a, a parent of like, you know, like, you know, people who are now maturing into adulthood, like, your kids are much younger, but, you know, it's kind of scary. And part of that's being in Los Angeles, I suppose.

• 1:37:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, because is it legal here now? Is it, or is it like, prescription?

• 1:37:40Rich Roll?

  I mean, it's the spray zone. Well, marijuana is, I mean, it's essentially legal. I mean, there's a difference between state law and federal law, and blah, blah, blah, but on a, on a practical level. I mean, you see the dispensaries all over town, right? And some of them look like Apple stores. You know, and so the marketing behind this is, this is benign, it actually is good for you, and should be part of your wellness routine, whether it's like, microdosing psychedelics, or like, just having some kind of casual relationship with marijuana. And as somebody who's been in recovery for a very long time, like, I know a lot of people who are in recovery for pot, who have had like, marijuana psychosis, and it is not, like, this, this casual kind of affect or, or relationship that our society

• 1:38:24Rich Roll?

  now has with marijuana is like, deeply concerning to me.

• 1:38:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, because I, we, we worked a lot up in Toronto, and Toronto is like, it's completely illegal. Like, people, like you say, like, these stores are like, Apple stores.

• 1:38:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah. You just walk down the street, you smell it everywhere. In New York City, you smell it constantly. All the people I know that smoke a lot of pot, these are not productive people. These are people who are binging an entire season of Star Trek, you know, while eating, you know, Kentucky Fried Chicken and sleeping all day. You know, like, this is, this is, this is what's usually happening. So, you know, buyer beware.

• 1:38:59Speaker 01

  Amy Schumer was like, have you, have you ever tried one of these gummies? I was like, no, no. And this was back in like, 2016, I think. Uh, and she was like, oh, you should, you should try one. Like, they're amazing. You'll just feel like, super chill. And she, she kind of like, sold, sold me on it. And she was like, why don't you just like, go, go for a walk, like, just take like, half one, and go for a walk, and you'll love it. And I was in Boston at the time. And I was like, you know what? They're all talking about this, the wellness benefits of this thing. Let's just see what it's all about. So, I, I took half of one of these gummies, right? And was like, okay, let's see what happens.

• 1:39:41Speaker 01

  And I'll use myself as a guinea pig for these sort of things. You know, like, I'll try anything if I think it's going to give me a benefit. So, let's try it and see what happens. So, I tried, I don't know what the strength was. I swear, I got to this park, and three and a half, four hours flew by like it was nothing. I was sat there in this park, and I remember just, I was, there was like, a wedding going on. There was like, a wedding party. And I remember a couple of people were kind of like, walking by me quite close, and I was like, what? But I remember being so kind of zoned out, and it put me into such a comatose sort of setting. Like, I basically felt sedated, like I was coming in and out of something.

• 1:40:25Speaker 01

  And I was like, super relaxed. And then I kind of came to about three, four hours later, and it, I looked at my watch, and like, three and a half hours had just like, flown by. And.

• 1:40:40Rich Roll?

  Not exactly a nootropic.

• 1:40:41Speaker 01

  No, but just like a weird, I was like, I don't know what.

• 1:40:45Rich Roll?

  A disassociation.

• 1:40:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, but also, what benefit did I get from that? I walked back to the hotel, then.

• 1:40:51Rich Roll?

  These things are so strong.

• 1:40:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think, I don't know what she gave me, but it was.

• 1:40:55Rich Roll?

  I mean, half a one did that to you in your, like, you know, mountainous state of 220 pounds or whatever?

• 1:41:02Speaker 01

  Although I suppose my, my body's just not used to it. So, it's probably, what the hell is going on? But, uh, yeah, I mean, I, it was, it was not for me. I, I experienced it was like, yeah, okay, I think it'll be a one-time only thing.

• 1:41:15Rich Roll?

  You know what is for you? Here's another segue.

• 1:41:21Speaker 01

  This guy's a pro, man.

• 1:41:23Rich Roll?

  High Rocks is for you.

• 1:41:24Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 1:41:25Rich Roll?

  Uh, tune into Open Container for more about that. But when did your competitive uh, spirit inspire you to get involved in being a competitive athlete in High Rocks?

• 1:41:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, probably about, not long over a year, actually, maybe a year and a half ago. Um, I was in, I was still shooting Terminal List at the time, a true believer, which is the one that's about to come out. And I was like, doing my training, I was doing my training for, you know, my SEAL training and stuff, like being shaped for Rafe. And I, I remember feeling like a bit of a plateau, sort of feeling like I wanted something to kind of aim for. And my mate Simon came over and was telling me about this thing called High Rocks that he did earlier in the year. I was like, I've never heard of this thing. What is it? And he was showing me videos, and he was explaining them what the race is. And for people who don't know, it's eight one-kilometer runs, and in between each kilometer run is

• 1:42:24Speaker 01

  a different workout station. You have a ski erg, a sled push, a sled pull, 80 meters burpy broad jumps.

• 1:42:33Speaker 01

  You have a two, what is it, H B B, burpee broad jumps of

• 1:42:37Rich Roll?

  Farmers carry.

• 1:42:38Speaker 01

  Thousand meter row.

• 1:42:40Rich Roll?

  All right.

• 1:42:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, then farmers, 200 meter farmer carry, 100 meters walking lunges and then 100 war balls at the end of the race. And each in between each of those is a one kilometer run. And the idea is you do it as fast as you possibly can. So he showed me the videos of him doing it. I was like, this looks amazing. This looks right up my street. And he told me like, it's all like performance based, all about being as fast as you can. And I, we've talked about this, but I love being humbled, right? I love going, you're not good enough for this. And then I go like, watch me, let's see, come, come back in a year or come back in a few months. And I kind of do that to myself. I kind of like to challenge myself and find things that are hard and, and push.

• 1:43:23Speaker 01

  And I decided that next week I would sign up to one. So I signed up to the London one, which was later on in that year. And I thought, right, well, let's just see where I'm at. And I didn't really do much running before, but I thought, you know, eight, one kilometer runs, I could probably do that and be all right. And on paper, it definitely feels easier than the reality of it. So I did like a simulation in my home gym. I went for a run and then started doing like, I didn't have a sled at that point, but I did like squat, heavy squats, went for another run. And was, was doing the stations and I got to the burpee station, which is like, what, station four?

• 1:44:03Speaker 01

  And I was gassed and I was like, I've been completely humbled by this thing. And just thought, I've got some work to do because I'd already signed up for it. So I was like, I've got some real work to do. So I started researching of how to train for it. And I became highly addicted to it. I mean, I have that kind of personality. And when I have something that I'm into, my, my wife calls it hobby dating. I find a hobby that I'll just like date. So I'll never cheat on it with a girl, but I'll cheat.

• 1:44:30Rich Roll?

  Which is kind of like acting. You take on a role, you immerse yourself in a world you don't understand. And then, you know, six months later, it's over and you go into something else.

• 1:44:38Speaker 01

  Exactly that, exactly that. So yeah, high rocks became that new thing. And then my, my weaknesses were exposed, like my running base was nowhere near where it needed to be. But what I loved about it was it kind of tapped into many aspects of, of fitness, you know, like the, the agility aspect, you know, burpee broad jumps, you're having to like jump up and down from the ground. You have to like use severe like strength and power and the sled pushes and pulls. You have to be able to do different kind of aerobic works, skis, rows, running. So I just loved how the, the cross training hybrid athlete element of it fit into the way I like to train anyway.

• 1:45:20Speaker 01

  And also the performance base, you know, the performance of like knowing a time, I set a goal time of what I think I could get. It was much faster than where I was at the time. And I thought, right, I'm going to aim for under one hour 15. Because my running base, when I first started running, I was struggling to hold a, a five 45 per kilometer, minutes per kilometer pace. So I knew I had to bring it down to like a four 30 minutes per kilometer pace. So for a hundred kilo guy, you know, that's, it was, it was a challenge. So I wanted that, that push. So then over the next few months, I, I worked on just getting better at it, but I, I had some real kind of wake up calls of how much running, what it can do to your body if you do too much too quickly.

• 1:46:02Speaker 01

  I got like an I T B syndrome and like had terrible pain in my knee for a while. So I had to really learn from that and slow down, build slower.

• 1:46:14Speaker 01

  And yeah, it's become, and then I did my first one, first solo in December last year and then got one hour 14.

• 1:46:21Rich Roll?

  Oh, wow. So you got under 115.

• 1:46:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:23Rich Roll?

  You're going to do Birmingham?

• 1:46:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's the plan. Yeah. Birmingham at the end of October. We might have a slight, I don't know this yet, but I've got a slight filming conflict. So I'm not gonna, I can get to it.

• 1:46:34Rich Roll?

  We'll see how deep this obsession runs.

• 1:46:36Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:46:37Rich Roll?

  Can you work, can I take a few days off to do this?

• 1:46:39Speaker 01

  Just to go do a high rock.

• 1:46:40Rich Roll?

  Um, but there's more, I mean, there's a lot of these races every year. The popularity of the sport is like insane. It's gone through the roof. And I think it's cool. Like there's a community piece to this that I think is really powerful. We were talking earlier, I think on some level, it's a reaction to COVID, like this just thirst and desire for I R L experiences and this shared love of fitness that like brings people together. There's all kinds of gyms, you know, this is sort of the maturation or the evolution of like CrossFit gyms into these high rocks gyms. And I've seen a couple of these places and, you know, people can kind of go through the circuit together, like it's cool. And this is a completely different world from like my world of like athletics and fitness.

• 1:47:23Rich Roll?

  And this morning you just absolutely destroyed me. Like I, I was so humbled. I knew that I would be because I'm like a locomotive, like I start slow and I get up to a certain pace. And as an ultra endurance athlete, it's just about like, how can, how long can I maintain this degree of effort over an extremely long period of time? And so I'm never training like the high end of my anaerobic state. It's completely undeveloped. Like I have no fitness up there and I know that's what I need to do in order to be a more robust, resilient athlete. But we always want to do what we like doing and what we're good at. And so I'll do my zone two and like, I'll, I'll do some static lifts in the gym and stuff like that. But like I, I've been shying away from like threshold stuff.

• 1:48:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:07Rich Roll?

  A, it's painful, you know?

• 1:48:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:10Rich Roll?

  Um, and I'm not good at it and all of that. And so this morning you kind of forced me to confront, you know, my, you know, like just how much work I need to do. Like you literally lapped me in the stupidest circuit of all time. And I was like, oh, wow. Okay. Like.

• 1:48:24Speaker 01

  I mean, the thing is with that kind of work, I mean, I was saying this when we were doing it. It's really for saying

• 1:48:31Speaker 01

  that was your first time doing that kind of training though. I mean, it, the reason you get better at that kind of training is just doing more of it.

• 1:48:38Rich Roll?

  So now, but now I have my feet wet. Like you've introduced me to this and okay, now I kind of understand this. And now it's sort of like, okay, like I have to like, okay, now I'm going to figure out how to like get a little bit better at this. Like I can already feel it.

• 1:48:50Speaker 01

  And the, what the kind of workout we did, you can, you can do adaptations of any version of that.

• 1:48:56Rich Roll?

  Like I, I think I want to get the technique down first.

• 1:48:59Speaker 01

  So important.

• 1:48:59Rich Roll?

  Rather than just jump into like these like threshold circuits. Like I need to know how to do these movements properly, which I definitely don't right now. But it's fun. And we were talking about friends in common and other athletes who have found a lot of nourishment in this world. There's more and more actors doing this. I joked that you and Patrick Wilson should like do a team or something like that. Like there should be a celebrity category or whatever.

• 1:49:25Speaker 01

  Like I was saying, they should do like a pro am. So celebrities or actors or whatever get teamed up with the pros. And they have to work in doubles with them. So you do like a double.

• 1:49:35Rich Roll?

  Right. You have like, you get like you and Jake Dearden or like, you know, like one of these guys, like get a ringer with like somebody who, you know, has some kind of like celebrity status.

• 1:49:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, he'd be dragging my ass around. His, his running pace is about a minute quicker than mine.

• 1:49:48Rich Roll?

  When you're in pairs, there's always going to be, it's always going to be that way.

• 1:49:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. That's the thing is like, that's what I love about the doubles in, in high rocks is you, you adapt depending on what the pair is, right? So there's the certain ones, like I did one with my nephew, Ned, who is a, is a phenomenal runner. But he, he was kind of like new to this, this world of training. So by the time we got to the race, we figured out where his strengths were and where mine were and where our weaknesses were. He's far superior to me at burpee broad jumps, right? Cause he's, he's only like 75 kilos. I'm a hundred kilos. So him like springing his little body around is like so much easier than me. Whereas on the big, heavy sleds or like heavier lunges, like I take a bit more of that.

• 1:50:34Speaker 01

  And then on the runs, he sets the pace and I keep up with him, which actually wrecked my gas tank and on the, on the runs. But it's, yeah, you work together and you, you work.

• 1:50:45Rich Roll?

  But if you get your run in shape, you'll have a major improvement.

• 1:50:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. That's where I'm, I mean, a lot of this sort of off season for me has been building up my running, which unfortunately has, has hit me a little bit because I got like a plantar fasciitis thing for doing too much mileage and too much hard running. So I'm having to kind of lean back.

• 1:51:02Rich Roll?

  Earlier, yeah. Like your, your cardiovascular system, your lungs and everything, they're fit enough to handle the intensity and the volume. But your ligaments and your joints and all these things, they just take a lot longer. And it's just so easy to get injured.

• 1:51:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:17Rich Roll?

  You get ahead of yourself because you're fit and you want to push yourself and you want to go hard. Restraint is like always the number one rule with running, like less is more, never run on consecutive days, things like that. You know, until you have enough experience where you know when to push and when to hold back.

• 1:51:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it can creep up on you, the injury, right? Like this, this thing, it wasn't like I did one session too more, too much and it, it just happened. It was like a, you know, like a trauma case. It was just gradually, it became something that, that hit me over multiple weeks. And all of a sudden I was getting up in the morning and I couldn't walk properly because the, the pain was so severe in my, in my foot from the plantar fasciitis. So it's not something that you get like that immediate trigger. It's like your back, right? It was 10 years of that gradually getting worse. I feel like with, with running injuries, sometimes it can creep up on you. And before it's too late and then you've got to give it, you know, double the time to let it settle down again.

• 1:52:15Rich Roll?

  But you know what you can do when you finish your High Rocks race? You can enjoy a delicious NA beer from Go Brewing.

• 1:52:23Speaker 01

  Oh, is that?

• 1:52:24Rich Roll?

  Do you know Go Brewing? So Go Brewing is the NA beer title sponsor of High Rocks. Um, and they're a brand partner. I'm an investor.

• 1:52:33Speaker 01

  Oh, great.

• 1:52:33Rich Roll?

  Joe Chura. Um, yeah, like they're on board with High Rocks. So it's like you celebrate with an NA beer.

• 1:52:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's great. Cause I think sometimes like I, I still love that feeling of having a beer, right? Even so, it's even if it's a placebo effect, just the taste alone of having a beer can be great. But the, uh, so what's, what is in it makes it, does it still taste like real beer?

• 1:52:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah, they've done a great job. They have like these small batch craft beers and they've won all these awards for like best tasting. Like their original NA beers tasted horrible. It's come a long way and now there's some interesting brands. I mean, Athletic Brewing was the first brand to really make a huge impact, especially on the kind of athletic outdoor community.

• 1:53:17Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:53:18Rich Roll?

  Um, but now we have all kinds of brands out there, like Go Brewing is my favorite. That's why I'm backing them.

• 1:53:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, I gotta try it.

• 1:53:25Rich Roll?

  Shout out Go Brewing.

• 1:53:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:26Rich Roll?

  Actually, we have some here. I'll give you some.

• 1:53:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, great.

• 1:53:28Rich Roll?

  Um, and we have, uh, your fellow Brit who has a similar, uh, has a similar kind of giving up the booze story as you. And his name is Tom Holland.

• 1:53:39Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, that's right. He did stop drinking, right?

• 1:53:41Rich Roll?

  He came here and told that whole story and then he founded Bureau, like he has his own NA brand now.

• 1:53:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, I heard about that.

• 1:53:48Rich Roll?

  I mean, you know, you guys don't look alike, but like, you know, Tom, yeah, like it's, the names are similar enough. Does that cause issues?

• 1:53:55Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 1:53:56Rich Roll?

  I think you were, you were coming in and, and, uh, we were having dinner the other night and you were gonna, you were gonna be coming in. It was before we had to like reschedule and, uh, and my wife was like, I, I don't know who this guy is. Like I'm gonna, I'm gonna Google him. And she spelled your name correctly and she's like, oh, he like, you know, had this bad experience with alcohol and then he quit. And then, and, and then I was like, I think that's, I think that's Tom, I think that's Tom Holland. I think you typed wrong. And she's like, no, I typed this. And it was some AI article.

• 1:54:23Speaker 01

  What?

• 1:54:23Rich Roll?

  And it was, it was claiming to be about you. And then there was like a picture of Tom Holland, but they were spelling your name correctly. I was like, there's confusion out there.

• 1:54:30Speaker 01

  That is so weird. Yeah. Yeah. The AI got really confused.

• 1:54:33Rich Roll?

  Right. Anyway.

• 1:54:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. The only person that I do get, uh, do you know the director, Tom Hopper?

• 1:54:38Rich Roll?

  I know who he is.

• 1:54:39Speaker 01

  He directed like Les Mis. So that's the only one that gets, cause the Hooper Hopper thing.

• 1:54:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Hooper, Hopper and Holland, all the Toms in Hollywood.

• 1:54:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then there's Tom Hiddleston.

• 1:54:48Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:54:48Speaker 01

  As well. There's a few Tom H's.

• 1:54:50Rich Roll?

  A little harder to confuse him.

• 1:54:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:52Rich Roll?

  Uh, but he's in the superhero world, right?

• 1:54:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:57Rich Roll?

  How long before you're putting on a Marvel costume?

• 1:54:59Speaker 01

  Um, we'll see. Cause they're, they're doing a lot of reinvention, aren't they right now?

• 1:55:02Rich Roll?

  They are.

• 1:55:03Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, we'll see.

• 1:55:04Rich Roll?

  They need to, they need to think broadly, think more broadly.

• 1:55:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean,

• 1:55:09Rich Roll?

  What they're doing.

• 1:55:09Speaker 01

  That's the thing is like I, those, some of those characters, stories are great. Like the one that always, I mean, it's more the DC Universe and they've just done the new Superman. But Superman always really interested me because of not Superman, as like I was talking about before. It's for me, if I got Superman, I want to concentrate on Clark Kent, right? Who's Clark Kent? Who's the, how do you make Clark Kent unrecognizable to Superman? Because I always feel that the Superman movies, it's like they've just put glasses on them, you know? I don't really feel like they're a, a different person. I feel like I would know.

• 1:55:44Rich Roll?

  They've never really developed that character.

• 1:55:46Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:55:46Rich Roll?

  In the way that like Nolan developed the Bruce Wayne character.

• 1:55:50Speaker 01

  Yes. And I think that's the always the more interesting one is like the, the mask of Superman is Clark Kent, right? He's born Superman. He talks about this in Kill Bill, like Tarantino talked about it in one of his speeches where Bill says why Superman's different. He's born Superman. His mask is Clark Kent. So how do you, how do you create this mask that is unrecognizable? And how do you go deep into who he has to be to not be seen as Superman? And for me, that's the really interesting actor part of it. I think it's from an actor's perspective, I think it's the most interesting one. But it's just not been tapped into in that way yet. Like I'd, I'd love to do a, you know how they read Joker?

• 1:56:34Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:56:34Speaker 01

  I would love to do a version of Superman or Clark Kent when he's older and he's kind of like hidden away, not wanting to be Superman anymore. And he's living life as like a Clark Kent.

• 1:56:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah. He's having an existential crisis about what he's doing. Kind of like, uh, Daniel Craig in Skyfall. Like he has to revisit his childhood. You know, there's a whole identity thing going on with that.

• 1:56:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly like that. Because that's when it becomes, you know, more relatable. It's more human and, um, but I always thought that Christopher Reeve, there's a reason, the reason he was so great is because of his Clark Kent, not because of his Superman. He looked like Superman. He was already that. But I want to see the other guy, you know, how do you be the, the dweeby?

• 1:57:16Rich Roll?

  All right. Well, this was your audition tape. Attention DC, you heard it here, man.

• 1:57:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:22Rich Roll?

  I already know what the clip is.

• 1:57:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's all right. I'm already developing it.

• 1:57:25Rich Roll?

  Speaking of, uh, Daniel Craig, here's my, my final transition.

• 1:57:29Speaker 01

  Oh, here you go. Go on.

• 1:57:30Rich Roll?

  Uh, true or false, you are or are not being considered to be the next James Bond?

• 1:57:37Speaker 01

  I don't think I am. I think they are going to go much younger than what I currently am. Even though I try and age backwards.

• 1:57:45Rich Roll?

  How old are you now?

• 1:57:46Speaker 01

  I'm 41 now.

• 1:57:47Rich Roll?

  41.

• 1:57:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Cause they need to have somebody that they can grow into over more than a decade.

• 1:57:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. And you know, like I, if, if, if I was so lucky to have that opportunity, you know, I'm a massive Bond fan. Then, you know, I, I back myself to be physically able for the next like 10 to 15 years. But I think the, the really interesting thing to do right now with that, because Daniel Craig was so good. And they've kind of done that. They already did that reinvention after Pierce Brosnan to kind of make it more real and raw and gritty. And, and kind of that human side of him, right? Where we see him fall in love and then get hurt. They've kind of done that, right? So the only way to reinvent now, so it's completely different and kind of incomparable to, to Daniel Craig is to go,

• 1:58:34Speaker 01

  let's go right back to when he first becomes this guy and take him into his like twenties maybe. So I, I imagine.

• 1:58:41Rich Roll?

  Origin story.

• 1:58:42Speaker 01

  Like an origin story. Yeah. And I think what would be really cool, I don't know if they'll do this, but what would be really cool is if you took it back in time. As in it actually made it like period.

• 1:58:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I've heard, I've heard people talking about that, like do it as a period piece, set it in the sixties.

• 1:58:55Speaker 01

  Be very cool.

• 1:58:56Rich Roll?

  They definitely have to go in a different direction to try to reimagine this and get people excited. You can't just continue, you know? And, you know, Craig, the Craig thing was the Craig thing, but we have to do something unique now, I think.

• 1:59:08Speaker 01

  I think so.

• 1:59:08Rich Roll?

  There's so many of these movies and so many iterations of this.

• 1:59:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. So how do you, exactly. It's like the question that I'm sure they're all going over is how you, how you do that, how you reinvent. And I think the only way to truly do it, to not make it comparable to what we've already done is to go much younger. So.

• 1:59:24Rich Roll?

  And I think they should cast a complete unknown. We already had, like, I, I, I love all the guys that are in contention. Um, Callum, like, you know, like he would be great, right? Aaron Taylor Johnson, like that guy's a machine. He would be amazing, all in their own right. Um, but we all have a relationship with these people and we have an association with like who they are on screen.

• 1:59:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:59:46Rich Roll?

  I think we need to have somebody we've never seen before and we can like develop a new relationship with this character.

• 1:59:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that was the thing with Daniel Craig, right? Like he was, he was pretty well established, but he, he wasn't like a household name.

• 1:59:57Rich Roll?

  No, not at all.

• 1:59:58Speaker 01

  A lot of those guys almost are really.

• 1:59:59Rich Roll?

  He crushed it in Layer Cake though.

• 2:00:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. He, that was like his audition piece, right? I mean, in Layer Cake, you watch him and go, yeah, he's perfect for Bond. But we were talking about this earlier, when he first, when he first got announced, there was a kind of an uproar. It wasn't right.

• 2:00:13Rich Roll?

  People were not happy. Blonde, like people were freaking out.

• 2:00:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and what I love about that is like you just absolutely smashed them all to pieces with that first performance. It was amazing.

• 2:00:23Rich Roll?

  Well, all of that went away when they leaked the photo of him coming out of the Caribbean sea.

• 2:00:29Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, with his little skimpy Speedos.

• 2:00:32Rich Roll?

  And he was just absolutely like, you know, just drilling it.

• 2:00:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I remember seeing that and thinking that's what James Bond should look like. He should look like a machine.

• 2:00:41Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 2:00:41Speaker 01

  But you don't, you don't necessarily think it in a suit, right? Like he's kind of like trimming everything in a suit. But then when it's off, you see this, this body that's like honed to be able to be like a functional being and like he's, he's capable. You know, and I love that. He's not just suave, he's capable.

• 2:00:57Rich Roll?

  What is your theory on why so many leading men and like action stars come from the UK? Or, you know, Australia also, you know, like is it a tradition or a respect for acting in those places in the world that we don't have here? Like, it seems like there's a disproportionate number of dudes who end up, you know, dominating Hollywood that, you know, come from one of those two places.

• 2:01:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know, man. I'm not sure what that is. I mean, yeah, it does seem to be, there's, there's quite a few or like Europe as well, right? We've had like the Arneys, the Van Damms, Dolphs.

• 2:01:34Speaker 01

  I don't know what that is. Yeah, I mean, the acting. The acting side of I don't know, because it feels like a lot of the action stars aren't like known for their acting prowess necessarily, some of them. But they are like amazing action stars. Jason Statham is an incredible action star, right?

• 2:01:51Rich Roll?

  But he was a top tier diver.

• 2:01:53Speaker 01

  He was, yeah, great athlete. Yeah. Yeah, I saw some videos of him on YouTube.

• 2:01:59Rich Roll?

  No, super legit. I don't, I don't know if he went to the Olympics, but he was like on the national team and yeah, yeah, he was like, he was.

• 2:02:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, legit diver and a very good martial artist. So those sort of things cross over quite well, I think. But I don't know if that's anything to do with the country. I'm not sure if it's just a weird. Thing that's happened. I'm not sure.

• 2:02:16Rich Roll?

  It isn't necessarily normal in the United States to like go to drama school, but I feel like in the UK, that is a path that is sort of accepted.

• 2:02:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, because action is definitely not an action thing, but I definitely think there is a, the, the drama school training. And I think that's what.

• 2:02:34Rich Roll?

  There's a tradition there that dates back hundreds of years.

• 2:02:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, and there's a discipline to that kind of acting that I don't think, I don't really know because I haven't done it, but the, the kind of training they do in the US. Theatre training is, there's nowhere to hide, right? Like you don't get to go for another take. You do it then, or you don't do it at all, or you fail. So. Doing theatre is the ultimate exposure for you as an actor to, to push through and because things happen all the time on stage, right? They go wrong and you have to deal with it and move around it or use it. And acknowledge it and then, you know, you, if you're really skilled, you can make the audience laugh through that moment or you can.

• 2:03:17Speaker 01

  And usually an audience is kind of in with you on it, like they know that it's happened. So they kind of go, how are they going to deal with that?

• 2:03:23Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 2:03:24Speaker 01

  So that's the skill of theatre.

• 2:03:25Rich Roll?

  It's an organic, living, breathing thing.

• 2:03:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, very much so.

• 2:03:29Rich Roll?

  With higher stakes.

• 2:03:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, huge stakes. Yeah. Like if you're doing it professionally, like they expect you to be able to deal with that stuff. So. Yeah, theatre training, I think, gives you a discipline. That is different to, I guess, the way they maybe do it over the States. I couldn't, I can't talk to that, but I'm sure there are types of training here. I know. Like Lee Strasberg and stuff like that is like, is very disciplined and that kind of training. So, and that kind of, I think the Strasberg way. That does also link into the way that theatre is done. So they're, they're very similar like that, but once per screen. And it's all about being real. How do you, how do you connect to the text to make it authentic? So like text work, like learning how to do script and make it your voice.

• 2:04:12Rich Roll?

  Was, was Strasberg the tradition that you were trained in or?

• 2:04:16Speaker 01

  We, we learned it with a lot of practitioners, like Stanislavski.

• 2:04:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I was gonna say, because there's these, you know, kind of different theories and. Ways of going about it, Stanislavski and Stras, these are very different approaches.

• 2:04:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, like outside in or inside out, you know, which way you approach it. So you either draw from your own experiences. And how do you bring that into the, into the text for, for, for a script? Or you take the person's. The character's reality and you go, how do I make that mine? So there's, there's loads of different ways to do it. And sometimes you have to adapt, you have to go, because some people are very strict on their method. And I've been asked a few times, like, what's your, what's your method? I'm like, I don't really have like a set method. I go with what I feel. The character is right for me. And, and sometimes like I'm quite picky with the, the jobs that I do because I want to know that I can do a good job. I don't want to.

• 2:05:13Speaker 01

  Just take a role because it's like, you know, a huge IP or something that's going on and I'm, you know. Asked to do it. I don't necessarily want to do it for that reason. I want to be able to go. How good a job can I, me, Tom Hopper do at that? Am I going to be able to bring the truth out of that role? And sometimes I'm like, I'm not sure that's for me. I'm not sure I'm the guy for this role because I don't feel it. I don't feel like I can do the best job. And if I, if I feel like that, then I don't want to do it. I have to look at characters and, and really go, what's, what's my version of that role? That's truthful. Especially when it's, you know, something like, you know, Jack Carr's universe, because you're telling real, authentic stories. So it matters a lot.

• 2:05:58Rich Roll?

  I think it's important to have that rigorous training if you're going to excel in your field. And there's so many different paths, like as you mentioned earlier, you went to school with so many people who were so brilliantly talented and, you know, could never find a way to plug into it. It's definitely not a meritocracy.

• 2:06:14Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:06:15Rich Roll?

  I'm curious around how you think about like the training versus. The natural gifts, like when you watch somebody like Daniel Day Lewis, who just puts in one transcendent, you know, performance after another. The Robert De Niro's, these people like Meryl Streep, they're just touched in a certain way. And it could be charisma, it could be just some ineffable, intangible quality that they have. And sometimes it's a, it's a stage presence, other times it's just a relationship with the camera that translates in a way that, you know, if you're on set, you don't even see it until you actually watch the movie.

• 2:06:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:52Rich Roll?

  How does that work? Like when you see those people and you're like, how are they doing this? Like, what is happening? You know, like, how, how do I get a little piece of that?

• 2:07:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it's the same way we look at.

• 2:07:04Speaker 01

  Phenomenal athletes, right? You have these outliers sometimes that, you know, have a natural talent, they have the work rate. And they, they are able to just go beyond what other people are, right? And what other athletes of that same sport are able to do, you know, like the Rinaldos, the Messis of the world, the Michael Jordans. And I think you have the same thing in, in acting. You have.

• 2:07:34Speaker 01

  Someone like Daniel Day Lewis, for instance, you know, clearly he from, from jump default setting. Has this kind of magnetism about his face, the way he just sits, the camera loves him. On top of that, the guy works insanely hard at immersing himself. In these situations to be, who am I when I'm completely this role? What does that look like? How do I feel? What is the immersion factor that he'll put himself through to become that? You know, method acting is a thing in our industry that gets. There's a stigma to it because it can be quite intense and not fun to work around for other people. But the other side of that is it creates phenomenal performances sometimes.

• 2:08:19Speaker 01

  Not always, sometimes it's, you know, people get it wrong. But in the case of someone like Daniel Day Lewis. It creates Oscar worthy performances. And he's, he's our Ronaldo, right? He's our Messi. He's, he's someone that has all of it. And I think you have actors that. Sometimes. The camera sits on them and they look great. They're movie stars, like all these kind of movie stars, right? They're brilliant, that, that thing, they do that thing. But. What happens if they're really like pushed in a different direction? Are they able to like adapt and be diverse? And sometimes the work rate isn't there or like the skill to be able to transition across to a different style of acting.

• 2:09:00Speaker 01

  But they're amazing at that one thing. So I, I, I think the thing is with acting is it's so. It's so broad of what is good now, you know, there's people that I see that are phenomenal at. Comedy and then can't transition. I see people that are amazing at comedy, then the transition to drama and they're phenomenal at drama, even better. Like the Robin Williams's of the world, you know, Robin Williams. For me, like Mrs. Doubtfire, right? I think he's one of the, the best performances because in that movie, he crosses over from hilarity. Brilliant genius comedy to this moment in a courtroom.

• 2:09:40Speaker 01

  Where he's gonna lose his children and won't get to see his children anymore. And you see this beautiful heartfelt performance of a man. Going to the extremes of becoming a woman to get to see his children. That for me is a, is an incredible performance because it hits everything, hits all the boxes.

• 2:10:00Rich Roll?

  The great comedian to dramatic actor pipeline is interesting because we've seen that with other people. We know them as sitcom actors or whatever, and suddenly. They become these really powerful dramatic actors. It doesn't go the other way though. You don't see an accomplished dramatic actor excelling in comedy.

• 2:10:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that's why Chris Pratt, I think is great because he's, he's pushing that now in Terminal List. I've seen all eight episodes of A True Believer now. And what's really amazing to see is like how. You know, I, I watched him on Parks and Rec and then, you know, the, the Guardians movies and stuff. And like, I see him doing all this amazing. Comedy style of acting. And then when I see him in Terminal List, there's like a darkness inside there that he brings out. And now in, in True Believer even more so, like he's pushed and pushed and pushed as an actor. And it's so cool to see, to look at the guy in Parks and Rec and then go, oh man, he has this like other side to him that's really brilliant. And. Yeah, there's something about like comedic actors sometimes that they have.

• 2:11:03Speaker 01

  I don't know, like a.

• 2:11:05Rich Roll?

  Well, they have a sense, they have to understand timing.

• 2:11:07Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:11:08Rich Roll?

  In a very precise way that maybe, you know, can get. Somewhat overlooked when you're a dramatic actor, like, because it's all about like landing the line and.

• 2:11:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:11:17Rich Roll?

  And understanding like the dynamic that you're in. Because it's, you know, some kind of line set another way isn't going to work.

• 2:11:24Speaker 01

  Exactly. Yeah. And, and Chris is a. An actual genius at the comedy stuff. Like I've been in, you know, rooms with him where he's making gags and stuff. And what he can do on screen, like he's literally a genius at that sort of stuff.

• 2:11:40Rich Roll?

  He's, he's improv-ing some of this stuff.

• 2:11:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, he's incredible.

• 2:11:44Rich Roll?

  Like when he gives you shit for the tight shirt in season one, like that was, that was on the spot, right?

• 2:11:48Speaker 01

  I know, I got, I got fully like set up on that one, fully set up, turned up on set and I was the only one in that tight t-shirt. But yeah, yeah, he, he gave me shit for that, but. I should have given shit to the costume designer, to be honest, not me, but I was.

• 2:12:03Rich Roll?

  Well, you got one to hang over that person, you know, they owe you, they owe you, although you're getting a lot of mileage out of it.

• 2:12:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, exactly.

• 2:12:09Rich Roll?

  I think you're, you're benefiting from that attention a little bit. I've held you hostage for like an entire day. So I'm going to end this with a final question. I, I feel bad.

• 2:12:20Speaker 01

  Not at all.

• 2:12:20Rich Roll?

  I've literally spent the entire day with you. I want to end this with. Some thoughts around how you think about your relationship with your profession and your career, because you're in a very. Um, uncertain profession, like you talked about like the need to feel in control, but you decide to go into this world where you actually don't have very much control over your destiny. You know, it isn't necessarily a meritocracy. You can work really hard, but you know, you show up, you do these auditions, you hope you get cast in these things, but it's not like getting a job and like, okay, I'm going to work hard and climb this corporate ladder and I have this trajectory and I know where I'm going. Like it's a very different

• 2:13:01Rich Roll?

  thing. You have to have like a capacity to weather risk and uncertainty. So for the person who is thinking about a creative career or is trying to evaluate like whether they can tolerate that degree of uncertainty or risk, is it worth it? Everybody's telling me like, you know, like the chances of you making it and all that kind of stuff is so slim. What are your thoughts on that to the aspiring actor or anybody who's trying to take a like an off beaten path in their life?

• 2:13:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a, it's a great question and one, you know, that I have had for my whole career and like that, that uncertainty thing. Like my brother talks about this because he's a pilot and he just goes like, I don't know how you do it because I know where my paycheck's coming from. I know that I just go to work, I fly the plane and I come home and I get paid.

• 2:13:47Rich Roll?

  You have to be a checklist guy.

• 2:13:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. Just to start with where I began with that and my parents saying to me, it's really hard. It's really competitive. Everyone I ever spoke to was like, you'll be lucky to even get into drama school. You know, it was so competitive just to get to drama school. Then when you get out of drama school, you'll be lucky to get an agent that can get you work and then to even get a job. And I suppose there's two sides of it. One was my, my mom and particularly my granddad, my granddad was a sort of like the constant figure in my, my male figure in my life growing up. He was my mom's dad. And as I

• 2:14:28Speaker 01

  said, you know, we named my son after him. He was always the one that was like, he was a miner in, in the UK, very working class background. And he always said, don't stay around here, Tom. Don't, don't just go into a job here in Colville was where I was, which I love Colville, like it's where I grew up. But he was like, don't stay around here. Travel is like, follow your dreams. If you want to do something, follow your dreams. And that, he said that to me from a very young age. And I suppose that always stuck with me. He said, if you put your mind to anything, you can do it. That was why he always said, and he drilled that into me all the time. And I suppose that created like

• 2:15:12Speaker 01

  a fundamental thing in my head where I just thought, if I put my mind to it, I can do it. And I'd say that to any young aspiring actor. If you can find the strategy for you to just keep pushing, keep finding ways to do it, pivot when it's hard, it'll get better. Stick at it. I've had times where I'm like, I'm not sure where the next job's coming from early on in my career.

• 2:15:39Rich Roll?

  Did you have a plan B or were you just like, I don't want a plan B because I'm all in on this?

• 2:15:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, no plan B because for me, I can't, I can't see myself finishing, to go back to the, the win element, right? Like I can't see myself winning if I go, well, I might finish third, so I should better prepare to finish third. I gotta, I gotta believe that I can do it. And I, and I do, and I always have. And, and, but that doesn't, that's not without, that's not without strategy. That's not without massive action being taken. I actually was talking about this on another podcast about this book, Awaken the Giant Within by Tony Robbins. I read that book at one point and I kind of applied a lot of those strategies to the way that I approach most things in my life now. It was, it was,

• 2:16:25Speaker 01

  the podcast called Books That Changed My Life, and that was one that did. And a big part of like any achieving anything I think in life is if you want to do it, you have to take massive action. You have to figure out what, what works, what doesn't work. And when it doesn't work, you keep changing it until it does. And me and my wife collectively now, you know, her as a partner, we have like our, our goals that we want to achieve with our production company and our careers. And we are applying those strategies and those actions to make sure it happens. And as I've said about that for Freddie and stuff. But I think the only way actors sometimes have a, a thing where they just sit and wait

• 2:17:05Speaker 01

  for the call. I can't do that. We talk about control. I have to find ways to take action. I have to find ways to take back a little bit of that control. Otherwise it will drive me insane. So I'm just not the kind of person to sit there and wait. So I have a very high work rate for that. So I would say to anyone who was in at the start of this journey, take massive action, right? Go and, go and find out other ways that you can get in the door. And I don't just mean like go and network with this person, go and meet this person. It's not really about like just meeting people. It's about finding ways you can get in front of the camera, finding ways to, to further yourself as an actor and put yourself in the best positions you can. And start writing, start like trying to produce things. Do

• 2:17:48Speaker 01

  everything you can to get further and further and deeper into the understanding of the industry and how it works and that your career. I'm not saying that's the right way. I'm saying that's just what I do and it's done okay for me so far. And I, I want to surpass where I've got to, right? I want to keep growing. And the only way you do that is by taking huge amounts of action and just taking control back because as an actor, you feel very much out of control all the time. So you've got to take it back.

• 2:18:16Rich Roll?

  And have a robust, healthy resilience to weather a lot of rejection and not take it personally.

• 2:18:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. And yeah, taking it personally is one thing that's so damaging. Like there's, there's times where you get close to things and it doesn't go your way.

• 2:18:33Rich Roll?

  Have you had that where, because your life could literally change, you know, around like pilot season, you know, my former life as a lawyer, I would negotiate pilot contracts.

• 2:18:42Speaker 01

  Oh, interesting.

• 2:18:43Rich Roll?

  Clients and it's like, you know, this person who's been working so hard for so long and they've, you know, they've tested for this, you know, like this tested for this pilot.

• 2:18:50Speaker 01

  Brutal pilot season thing.

• 2:18:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And like before you even shoot the pilot, you have to sign this contract that could be for like the next seven years and you know what you're going to be paid. But first the pilot has to get like green light to be shot and then it has to get picked up for a series. You know, it's like, there's so many things that have to happen, but just that idea that like, oh, if this is a go, like literally my life changes overnight. It's like playing the Lotto on one level.

• 2:19:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, it really is.

• 2:19:16Rich Roll?

  And what that does to your mind, if you got like really close and then it doesn't happen, they went with another person or the pilot didn't get picked up.

• 2:19:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I think younger, when I was younger in my career, those times were tougher. And I think you kind of have to go through those periods to, to start to feel okay about it and, and kind of develop the wasn't to be mentality. Soon as you get to, okay, wasn't to be. It's crazy. And I, I started doing that almost, even if I did really was like, oh man, that, that.

• 2:19:46Rich Roll?

  You're already thinking about like the, the other house you can move into.

• 2:19:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

• 2:19:51Rich Roll?

  Like this is.

• 2:19:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, the new golf clubs I want.

• 2:19:53Rich Roll?

  Very dangerous.

• 2:19:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's, it's tough, right? Cause it is a dangling carrot and you're like, you're like, it's so close. But I've had roles, I mean, I've had roles where I've been given them, like huge roles where I've gotten them. And then because of scheduling, I couldn't do it.

• 2:20:11Rich Roll?

  You couldn't? Can you say?

• 2:20:12Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:20:12Rich Roll?

  Like, yeah.

• 2:20:13Speaker 01

  But the sooner I get to the place of, okay, it's not on my path. It's not on my journey. That's all right. We'll find something else. The more I've done that, the more there always is.

• 2:20:25Rich Roll?

  Like more, yeah, it's an abundant mindset.

• 2:20:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. So there's never just, there's never just one job, right? There's always going to be another one that's right around the corner. And I think with the right work rate and mentality and, and focus on the right things. And also, you know, when you, you do have to read for roles and stuff, you have to, you have to, it's that preparation thing I was talking about. You've got to, that focus. And, and I think, you know, it goes back to they're not drinking and all of that. I, I do all of those things. I make those decisions now because it does give me why I feel like an edge in those times.

• 2:20:58Rich Roll?

  There's a compounding effect to that.

• 2:20:59Speaker 01

  I think so.

• 2:21:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:21:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:21:02Rich Roll?

  I think you're just at the beginning of this. Like you're having a moment right now, but I think your future is very bright.

• 2:21:08Speaker 01

  Thanks, man.

• 2:21:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah. It was super cool to spend the day with you.

• 2:21:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, you too.

• 2:21:12Rich Roll?

  Season three, Terminal List. What is the title? It's not Dark Wolf.

• 2:21:16Speaker 01

  Dark Wolf is the, was the prequel when we.

• 2:21:18Rich Roll?

  That was the thing you did. And now it's Terminal List.

• 2:21:21Speaker 01

  True Believer, which is the second Jack Carr novel. Yeah. So it's, it's great. It's, it's based on the novel and it's a, it's a thrill ride. It's great.

• 2:21:29Rich Roll?

  Streaming on Amazon, premiering October 21st.

• 2:21:33Speaker 01

  Correct. Yeah.

• 2:21:33Rich Roll?

  The day after my 60th birthday. I promise you, this is the, this is your gift to me. This is, this is the 60th birthday gift that you're giving to me.

• 2:21:41Speaker 01

  Here's Terminal List.

• 2:21:42Rich Roll?

  I will immediately binge this entire thing in one night. I will, I will be like the pot smoking guy on the couch and we'll stay up to watch the entire thing in one sitting.

• 2:21:51Speaker 01

  Four hours will fly by.

• 2:21:53Rich Roll?

  Or just on a long flight or something like that.

• 2:21:54Speaker 01

  Exactly. Yeah.

• 2:21:55Rich Roll?

  This was an absolute delight. I, I really loved the opportunity to get to know you, man.

• 2:22:00Speaker 01

  Me too, man. Thank you so much.

• 2:22:01Rich Roll?

  It's super cool. Let's, let's do more cool shit together.

• 2:22:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, can't wait.

• 2:22:04Rich Roll?

  And keep me posted on all the high rock stuff. And I will likewise do it. I gotta, I gotta work on my technique a little bit.

• 2:22:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, we got dibbles in our future. I'm telling you.

• 2:22:13Rich Roll?

  I was definitely humbled today. So that open container episode will come out at some point TBD, but we're having really fun with this, a lot of fun with this new project. And it was great to have you like do both of our things today, man.

• 2:22:26Speaker 01

  It was great. Thanks for having me, man. It's been a real pleasure to be here. And you know, I've, I've watched you and seen you do your thing and to, to get to work out with you was a real, real pleasure and get to have these conversations. It's, it means a lot to me, you know? So thank you very much.

• 2:22:38Rich Roll?

  Thank you, man. All right. Peace.

• 2:22:48Rich Roll?

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• 2:23:29Rich Roll?

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