Osher Günsberg Interviews Rich

Today we switch gears a bit. How? This time the interviewer becomes the interviewee. Why? In just a few days (May 21st to be exact), the paperback version of Finding Ultra* hits bookstores — front table placement at Barnes & Noble! — or so I've been told…. I'll believe it when I see it — and online retailers. It's quite an honor that I am even getting a paperback release at all, and I want to make the most of the rare opportunity. On that note, my publisher thought it might be fun to have someone interview me for a change. Not to ask the same old questions I'm always asked, but to kind of go beyond the typical “Where do you get your protein?” line of inquiry and delve deeper. I must admit I wasn't to keen on the idea initially. This podcast isn't really about me, it's about my guests; I'm just the host. Then again, if I could find the right person to do it — somebody who knows me quite well and has something to really bring to the equation — then maybe it could be cool. Who? Well I found the right guy. Not only is Osher Günsberg a good friend, fellow plant-eater, marathon runner / aspiring ultra-runner and all-around cool dude, he's also a professional host. Those Down Under likely know this swarthy, handome and dynamic gentleman as ” Andrew G. ” — host of Australian Idol (Australia's version of American Idol) and from an array of other radio and television programs in both Australia and here in the U. S., including the CBS show Live To Dance, which he co-hosted with Paula Abdul. In addition, he is a proud supporter of the Indigenous Marathon Project, which provides an opportunity for Indigenous men and women of Autralia to run the New York Marathon, which is not only inspiring but helps encourage healthy, active lifestyles. A long way of saying he is total pro. And in this interview, it shows. Then there is this little matter of how — in the right light — we can appear to look somewhat similar. Don't believe me? Check the Instagram I posted the other day — it's over the top; although he is admittedly far more handsome and charming than I. Dopplegänger Günsberg. Forgive the phrase — I know it sounds like everyone's favorite hair band. I guess I just wanted to write two words in a row with a diaeresis. I think you will really enjoy my conversation with Osher. He’s the man. THANK YOU! Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 0:44Rich Roll?

  It's kind of an amazing thing. For listeners of the show, all you special people, we're offering an exclusive $20 off an annual subscription right now. To get it, go to meals.richroll.com, take your quick personalization quiz, and enter promo code RICHROLL20 at checkout. Welcome to the Rich Roll Podcast, episode 30 with Asher Gunsberg.

• 1:19Speaker 01

  The Rich Roll Podcast.

• 1:22Rich Roll?

  What's up, everybody? Hey, it's Rich Roll. It's the Rich Roll Podcast. It's episode 30. I can't believe we have done 30 episodes. That's crazy. I started this podcast back in December when my family and I were living on the North Shore of Kauai at this organic farm, and I was sort of feeling the need for a creative outlet, for a little bit of a hobby, and just did it on a flyer and had no expectations. And I'm just amazed that the show has found an audience. Very, very grateful, and I'm having so much fun doing it. I feel like I learn something new with every guest and every episode, and I hope you do

• 2:06Rich Roll?

  too. And hopefully, I'm getting better at doing this. The first couple ones, you know, were admittedly a little bit rough, and I'm certainly no professional broadcaster.

• 2:19Rich Roll?

  But hopefully I'm getting better and you are continuing to tune in and enjoy the show. What's going on? Well, I'm in New York City, very, very excited to be in New York. I love New York City. I used to live here in the late 80s and until last year, it had been many years since I had visited and I now have had the occasion to come back here a couple of times and I just, I love the vitality of it. I love the energy. It's so fun to be here because living in Los Angeles, I live in a very beautiful rural kind of remote part of LA outside of town and have the good fortune of being surrounded by a

• 2:59Rich Roll?

  lot of natural beauty, but I miss the energy of the urban environment and there's just something about New York, it's irreplaceable. It's the greatest city on earth, so it's always fun and a gift to come back here. I just got back from a 14 mile run in Central Park, two full loops plus in Central Park and I just love it. I love being up early, getting out there and seeing all the people out there biking and running and getting fit and I don't know, man, just something about this place, so great to be here. Why am I here? Well, I am here, well, for two reasons really. First of all, I'm speaking

• 3:41Rich Roll?

  on Saturday, May 18th, at an event called The Seed, The Seed Experience, which is down in Soho at 82 Mercer Street. It's this super cool, huge loft space and I did this event last year. It was really fun. Last year was the first year and I'm so glad to be coming back this year to speak. I'm speaking Saturday at 5 o'clock, but the event goes on all day Saturday and all day Sunday and essentially it's just a smorgasbord of plant eating goodness, tons of vendors and amazing food and a battery of amazing speakers in addition to me speaking, Brendan Brazier speaking.

• 4:21Rich Roll?

  Who you know, you know him as the Vega founder and, and kind of very well-known plant-based advocate, Tim Van Norden, the raw running guy who was a guest on this podcast a couple of months ago, he's going to be there. Who else? I think Kathy Freston speaking. There's a whole bunch of people speaking. They're doing film screenings too, and all sorts of events around it. It's super groovy. So if you are in New York City or in the vicinity, I encourage you to stop by and check it out. If you want to learn more, you can go to the seedexperience.com. And again, I'm going to be speaking 5 o'clock at Saturday for like an hour and I'm going to be signing books. And I'd love to meet you and sign your book,

• 5:05Rich Roll?

  shake your hand, whatever. So that's one of the reasons I'm here. The other reason I'm in New York is that the paperback version of my book, Finding Ultra, is coming out on the 21st, May 21st. I'm very excited. I'm very honored that Crown decided to issue a paperback version of the book. It's an indication of the strength of how well the book has been selling. And it's a blessing and an honor to be able to, to, to have that. And so I'm here doing some press around that and trying to get the word out. And you know, in a self-serving way, I suppose, I'm trying to sell books, right? They're like, hey, you

• 5:50Rich Roll?

  know what? You didn't make the New York Times Bestseller list with Finding Ultra, but maybe you can make the paperback list with, with the paperback issue of Finding Ultra. So I'm here trying to drum up interest and all that kind of good stuff. And on that note,

• 6:05Rich Roll?

  that kind of brings me to today's episode, what we're doing today and kind of honor, sort of honoring the 30th episode and also in anticipation of the paperback release. My publisher suggested, and I thought it was kind of an interesting idea. They said, hey, you know what? You know, you've interviewed all these amazing people. Why don't you have somebody interview you? And I kind of said, well, you know, I do these interviews all the time. I think people are sick of hearing what I have to say. I feel like I'm constantly repeating myself. And they said, well, what if you had a friend of yours do it? And they kind of asked you the stuff that, that, you know, you don't usually get asked, or they kind of go beyond

• 6:46Rich Roll?

  the typical interview questions that you get. Maybe there's something interesting there. I don't know. But I thought about it and I thought it could be cool. I think it all depends on getting the right person to do it. And today, I definitely found the right guy to do it. My friend Asher Gunsberg interviews me and we talk for almost two hours. And it was a great opportunity to kind of get into some stuff in a deeper way and kind of go beyond the typical questions that I get. Like, hey, you know, how, where do you get your protein? And, and, you know, what do you think about when you're running that far, whatever? And, you know, kind of the standard five or six questions that I typically

• 7:27Rich Roll?

  get. And Asher is a total pro. I mean, this guy, I only met him recently, but we've become fast friends. He's an Aussie transplant. And for those of you who are tuning in from Down Under, you probably know him as Andrew G. He was the host of Australia's version of American Idol. So I think they call it Australian Idol, or just Idol, I'm not sure. But, you know, he's a professional TV personality and host and a radio host and a journalist, kind of an on air guy who's very, very good at what he does. He's incredibly dynamic

• 8:08Rich Roll?

  and fun and energetic and inquisitive. And we had a great time talking. And he really, you know, he pushed me and we probed into some cool stuff. So I hope you enjoy the interview as much as I enjoy doing it with Asher. We've been out running. In addition to kind of what he does professionally, he's also a long term vegan, plant based guy. He's been eating plant based diet for like 10 years. He's gotten into running and marathon running and he's training for his first ultra. He's going to do the Bulldog 50K, which is in Malibu Creek State Park, Malibu Creek State Park down the street from where I live.

• 8:48Rich Roll?

  And so, you know, we have lots of commonalities and common interests in addition to bearing a kind of bizarre semblance of looking like each other. If you follow me on Instagram, you might have seen the picture that I posted the other day of Asher and I. We're both wearing the same glasses and the same white v-neck t-shirt with a little bit of scruff and the same haircut. And we look a little bit too much alike in that photo. I thought it was pretty funny. If you haven't seen it, just go to my Instagram at @RichRoll and check it out. So today, it's all about the paperback. I'm just trying to get the word out. So if

• 9:29Rich Roll?

  you've enjoyed Finding Ultra, please spread the word. Father's Day is coming up. Might make a good Father's Day gift. And now that the paperback is coming out, it's cheap, too. So if you're interested in doing that, what do you do? Well, I would suggest that you use the Amazon banner ad at richroll.com. If you go to richroll.com and click on the podcast page, on the right-hand side, there's an Amazon banner ad. If you're going to buy something on Amazon, like your Father's Day paperback version of Finding Ultra, just click the banner ad. It'll take you to Amazon, buy whatever you're going to buy. It's not going to cost you anything extra, but Amazon throws us a few pennies and it helps keep

• 10:14Rich Roll?

  the podcast going. And I really appreciate all the people that have been using the banner ad. It's amazing to kind of check the account once in a while and go, wow, there's a lot of people that are supporting the show by making their purchases using that click-through. And that's just, it's amazing. It feels really good and makes me feel better and better about doing the show, that people would go out of their way to do that. And also, beyond that, we have a donate button for people that are feeling inclined to go the extra step and throw us a few dollars directly. You can do that. And we've gotten a lot of donations from people, which, you know, I was even like dubious about putting

• 10:57Rich Roll?

  That up to begin with, like, I'm gonna ask for people, ask people for money, like, you know, this is free, it will always be free, you don't want to donate, you'll always get it for free, but for people that feel like going, going, going out and throwing us a few bucks, hey, man, that's great, you know, we have expenses, and that's really helping cover the costs of doing this, and it takes me a lot of time, you know, it's, I wish I could do this every day, or at least three times a week, but for every show, it takes me about three or four hours to post-produce it and get it up after I've done the interview, and it's work, you know, it's definitely work, and it's, it's time that I could be spending training, or, or doing other work, or spending time with my kids and my family,

• 11:40Rich Roll?

  but I believe in it, and we are at almost half a million downloads, actually, by the time this episode goes up, we might even cross it, which is incredible, so, thank you, everybody, that's tuned, that has been tuning in and subscribing, if you've been enjoying it, spread the word, tell a friend, that's all, it's free, it will always be free, like I said, and, hey, you know, leave a comment on the iTunes, on the iTunes page for the show, we've gotten a lot of great comments there, and, again, another reason to thank all of you, you guys are making it happen, you're putting wind in my sails,

• 12:20Rich Roll?

  and giving me the resolve to keep this going, and we've got a lot of things coming up for the show that are exciting, I'm looking at bringing on a producer, and looking for some studio space, so I can kind of take this to the next level professionally, and institute some systems, and get some people to help me, and if I can do that, then I can probably put up more episodes, because I won't be shouldering the burden of actually doing every single thing myself, which is what I've been doing so far, so, anyway, that's it.

• 12:52Rich Roll?

  Asher Gunsberg, we sit down, we talk two hours. It's pretty epic. He's a great guy. If you want to know more about Asher, you can follow him on Twitter at @AsherGunsberg, O-S-H-E-R-Gunsberg, G-U-N-S-B-E-R-G. I'm going to have him back on the podcast and interview him because he's up to some pretty cool stuff too with his advocacy work. He's getting involved in the Aboriginal running marathon project, which is pretty neat, working with the Indigenous people in Australia. And I want him to come on and talk about that. And we can talk plant-based eating, we can talk running and ultra running and all of that.

• 13:35Rich Roll?

  But this time, he's kind of turning the focus on me and peeling back the layers. And I'm going to do this sort of paperback release interview of me in two installments. This is going to be Asher's interviewing me. And then, and then in a couple of days, I'm going to upload part two, which is Mishka Shabali interviewing me. And Mishka was a guest on the show last time I was in New York. So what was that? I don't know, a month or six weeks ago. It was a really popular episode. We had a really intense conversation and I thought that he would be a good guy to also interview me because he can get into some of the other kind of subject areas that

• 14:20Rich Roll?

  I touch on in the book that he can relate to personally, like the recovery story and all of that. So I sat down with Mishka last night when I got into New York and we had another hour and a half, really intense conversation, but this time him asking me the questions and I'm going to upload that as part two of this kind of paperback release thing. So again, Finding Ultra, the paperback comes out 5/21. Get it for Father's Day. Tell a friend. Get the word out. Help me spread the word. Maybe we can make the New York Times Bestseller List. If we do, it'll be because of you guys and you guys only. So, thank you, thank you, thank you.

• 15:05Rich Roll?

  And without further ado, let's get into it. Asher Gunsberg interviewing me. Let's have it.

• 15:19Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me, Rich. It's amazing to be here in your home. It's beautiful home up here in the wilds.

• 15:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah, thanks.

• 15:27Speaker 01

  We love it. It's part of LA that no one thinks is LA, but it's LA.

• 15:31Rich Roll?

  It is.

• 15:32Speaker 01

  Mountains.

• 15:32Rich Roll?

  I lived, I actually lived in LA for many years before I even knew this area existed. It's quite the gem and still pretty undeveloped, you know, and close enough to town where you can drive in. But when you're here, you feel like you're on vacation.

• 15:46Speaker 01

  You're the reason I know this place exists. Cause when I first met you and I said, oh, you know, let's go for a run. You said, yeah, come out, come out here and we'll go running through that park down the street. I'd never been out here. I've driven through here to get to Malibu when I lived in the valley to go surfing and stuff, but just, I just banged straight past, never even looked to either side.

• 16:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you drive right past Malibu Creek State Park. You have no idea what's in there. We go in there running the other day and you're like, you're thinking, why isn't everybody up here? That's so magical and amazing.

• 16:16Speaker 01

  If you're coming to Los Angeles, it's worth, it's absolutely worth the day trip out here to go for a bit of a walk. Cause true, true wilderness.

• 16:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 16:23Speaker 01

  Out here, which is amazing in any kind of civilized world or civilized society to find actual wilderness still around.

• 16:28Rich Roll?

  It's, it's easy to throw barbs at LA, you know, and make fun of it. And, you know, most people like, including myself, who like I just said, who lived here for a long time before I knew this existed. I mean, your experience of LA is flying into LAX, which is like, you know, the world's worst airport.

• 16:43Speaker 01

  Descending through the airborne mud cloud.

• 16:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And then, you know, renting your car, getting in your car and driving on Lincoln Boulevard or Subulvita and Pico Boulevard and going, yeah, this is lousy.

• 16:54Speaker 01

  I used to tell people, I used to tell, what's LA like? I'm like, you know, in Australia, when you drive away from the airport and you leave the part of the city that looks like, oh yeah, this is near the airport. And then you arrive where you're going, it looks totally different. LA never changes. It all looks like it's by the airport.

• 17:08Rich Roll?

  It's basically a gradual extension of LAX.

• 17:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:13Rich Roll?

  I'm like, I've been traveling a lot, um, more than, you know, I have in many years and been in a lot of airports over the last year. And it's just, it's always shocking to me how poorly represented Los Angeles is with its airport. I'm like, what are we in? Like, you know, I mean, literally, you feel like you're, you know, in some sub-Saharan country or something.

• 17:33Speaker 01

  It's not that bad.

• 17:34Rich Roll?

  It's pretty bad.

• 17:35Speaker 01

  It's not that bad.

• 17:35Rich Roll?

  Well, and it's always under construction. So you think like, you know, the improvements are right around the corner. But, you know, I've lived here for, I don't know, 15, 16 years, and it doesn't seem to have changed too much.

• 17:46Speaker 01

  Never ever. But it's good that you're flying so much because you're putting the word out about the book, aren't you?

• 17:51Rich Roll?

  I'm trying. I'm trying. Yeah.

• 17:53Speaker 01

  Good man. Which is why you asked me here today. I like that how you popped the question. You waited till we were at about, I don't know, two and a half thousand feet up above sea level. My heart's about to blow out of my chest. Hey, man, I've got to do this thing. And my publisher wants me to get interviewed, man.

• 18:07Rich Roll?

  It was not a premeditated thing. It just occurred to me because my publisher said, you know, why don't you find somebody to interview you for the podcast? And I was like, that seems kind of, you know, self-aggrandizing or whatever. But, you know, not that I'm against being so promotional. Um, but, uh, but yeah, you're, you know, you're the, it just occurred to me when we were running, I was like, oh, you know, you're the perfect guy to do it. You know, we're both plant-based and running, ultra-running, you're training for an ultra right now. You're wearing similar glasses and have a similar hairdo and you're a professional radio and television guy. I mean, why didn't I think of that sooner?

• 18:44Speaker 01

  Well, honestly, mate, it's an absolute, it's an absolute honor that you even asked me. I was, I was so blown away that you even asked me. And, um, you say, I have to be today or tomorrow.

• 18:52Rich Roll?

  I know, last minute.

• 18:53Speaker 01

  I've, you know, I always do my homework. As you can see, I've done a lot of homework.

• 18:57Rich Roll?

  I'm impressed. You've got a notebook out. We keep it loose and fast here, you know, we can just wing it.

• 19:03Speaker 01

  That's okay. I, you know, we have a, I learned a very important lesson. And I was on a, I was on a snowboarding adventure with my youngest brother in Japan. And, um, we met an Australian guy called Saul. He was in his late 60s.

• 19:15Speaker 01

  And he told us on the back of one of those transfer buses, he goes, I always remember the six Ps. What are the six Ps, Saul? Prior preparation prevents piss poor performance.

• 19:24Rich Roll?

  I like that. That's definitely going in the show notes for this episode.

• 19:28Speaker 01

  And then there's the five Ds.

• 19:30Rich Roll?

  What's that?

• 19:30Speaker 01

  Don't dither or delay, decide or delegate.

• 19:33Rich Roll?

  I like that.

• 19:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. And he told, and both of us just like, whoa.

• 19:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah. It's either, it's, it's good, but it's also a little cheesy too. It's sort of like what you would hear at some self improvement.

• 19:44Speaker 01

  Well, that's what he said. He's like, he said, boys, that's the first year of business school right there. Don't even worry about it. It's, I've taken care of you. You're fine. So, and he's right. So, but I always, I always, people used to ask me if I would get nervous before I interviewed this person or that person. I'd never get nervous because I always prepare. So I always.

• 20:01Rich Roll?

  Do your homework.

• 20:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. So.

• 20:03Rich Roll?

  Well, first of all, you're talking about, uh, you know, oh, thanks for asking me to do this. It's an honor and whatever. But you just got back from Vegas interviewing the guys from Hangover three.

• 20:11Speaker 01

  Oh, that doesn't matter.

• 20:13Rich Roll?

  This is a, this is a quite the consolation prize.

• 20:15Speaker 01

  I disagree. That's.

• 20:16Rich Roll?

  I mean, what is that? What's that like? You know, you interview Zach.

• 20:20Speaker 01

  My friend Alicia says it's, um, it's speed dating with cameras.

• 20:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 20:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:24Rich Roll?

  How long are those interviews?

• 20:25Speaker 01

  God, we have now already spoken the length of three of them.

• 20:28Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 20:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're short.

• 20:29Rich Roll?

  I mean, do you try to bring something different to that?

• 20:31Speaker 01

  As much as you can.

• 20:31Rich Roll?

  Spice it up a little bit.

• 20:32Speaker 01

  As much as you can.

• 20:33Rich Roll?

  They must just be glassy eyed and like, please just, let's just get through this.

• 20:38Speaker 01

  Every time you see, and we talked to, uh, and we talked to Owen Wilson about his latest film and there's Owen going, yeah, you know, la, la, la. And there's a, like a generic kind of person nodding at the answer to the question. That's, I'm the guy.

• 20:51Rich Roll?

  You're the guy that with the poster and there's a poster of the movie.

• 20:54Speaker 01

  Exactly. That's exactly right.

• 20:55Rich Roll?

  And this is the problem with media and this is why podcasts are so great.

• 21:00Speaker 01

  You can smash it out. Yeah.

• 21:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I mean, it's, and I think people are hungry for that, you know, they're just tired, they're tired. So it's, I mean, those shows, Entertainment Tonight, all the evening shows, you know, the late night talk shows and all of that are hugely popular. But like, is anybody ever really satisfied with what anybody's, you know, as you go on, hey, you tell me about your vacation.

• 21:20Speaker 01

  It serves a purpose though. All that stuff serves a purpose. If it didn't.

• 21:24Rich Roll?

  Do you think people are aware of that? The only reason those celebrities go on those shows though, is when they have a movie coming out? I mean, I think a lot of people, but I think a lot of people aren't even completely aware of that.

• 21:35Speaker 01

  Look, I've

• 21:35Rich Roll?

  I mean, we're not doing anything that different than that.

• 21:37Speaker 01

  I've worked in, I've worked in media a long time. It's my 20th, 21st year or something in broadcasting and it, people just wanna, at the end of the day, they wanna sit down and escape from their terrible boss or the kid that's annoying them and, and go, oh, Angelina Jolie had her boobs done again. Hey, honey, did you hear that? And then they get to talk about something that it isn't.

• 21:59Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 22:00Speaker 01

  The phone bill for a while.

• 22:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I get that, man, you know.

• 22:03Speaker 01

  And that's it.

• 22:04Rich Roll?

  I'm not above that.

• 22:04Speaker 01

  That's what it's there for. But you asked me because you want me to interview you.

• 22:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well, we could do whatever.

• 22:11Speaker 01

  All right, but I, because here's the thing, I've read your book. I know you, I've listened to a bunch of your podcasts, not all of them. So if I cover anything that you've already covered, please.

• 22:20Rich Roll?

  All right.

• 22:20Speaker 01

  Please let me know. I think I've probably caught about 60 to 70% of them. Maybe more. I've missed, I've missed a few.

• 22:26Rich Roll?

  That's pretty loyal.

• 22:27Speaker 01

  But I pretty much go, you're in there, you get updated. I go, we've got another one. I live in Venice. I sit in my car a lot. I drive a lot. I listen to a lot of podcasts. That's the other thing, you know, just I, I don't listen to, I've got a satellite radio in my car. I don't even listen to it anymore.

• 22:40Rich Roll?

  I do too. I just listen to podcasts. It's like, you just program your own. I have literally like, you know, 45 hours worth of content always on hand. Why would I turn the radio on?

• 22:49Speaker 01

  And I've, exactly. And here's, I've had a career in radio since 1994. I just, only just stopped five months ago. And like, how the hell can a radio station compete with curated content that someone has put, designed exactly for themselves, their own playlist of things that exactly they are interested in and want to hear in the palm of their hand.

• 23:09Rich Roll?

  And everybody has a mobile device. So I'm actually shocked that, that podcasting isn't more. I mean, it's growing, obviously, but isn't more popular than it is. I mean, there's a lot of people that are like, what?

• 23:20Speaker 01

  You wait.

• 23:20Rich Roll?

  You know.

• 23:21Speaker 01

  The way it streams over the air, uh, right now, like Spotify, it streams, uh, you know, MP3 over the air. Or if you're on unlimited data plan here in the States, you can get the, your podcasts over the air. That'll be a widget in your dashboard before long.

• 23:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 23:36Speaker 01

  And it won't be the iTunes store, it'll be a widget, like an app on your dashboard. You just touch that screen and there's Rich Roll Podcast, it's updated again when you want to listen to it.

• 23:44Rich Roll?

  Well, the iTunes, or there's a podcasting app for the iPhone now that does that. Like, I used to have to download them on my desktop and then sync my phone and make sure that they were all updated. But now they just stream through that app on my iPhone, so.

• 24:01Speaker 01

  Well, like you said, you asked me to interview you because you've got the paperback coming out. Congratulations, that's a big step.

• 24:07Rich Roll?

  Thank you.

• 24:08Speaker 01

  And so I've put together a bunch of questions, because I've read your book and you're a very interesting man. You cover a lot in your book. And I guess the first question that I really want to ask you is, where do you get your protein from?

• 24:26Rich Roll?

  I'm so glad that we have a professional in the house, Steve.

• 24:33Rich Roll?

  And you come right out of the gate with the question that I never get asked.

• 24:37Speaker 01

  Follow up, but don't you miss bacon?

• 24:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah, exactly. You know what's really funny about that is today, Rip Esselstyn, who wrote The Engine 2 Diet, just came out with a brand new book called My Beef With Meat, came out yesterday. And so he's in New York right now doing the talk show circuit. And he was on one of those morning shows today, like CBS This Morning or one of that. And it was, and the person who does his Twitter tweeted it, she's like, oh, I gotta see this. And, you know, he's sitting there and it's Charlie Rose and whoever all the other hosts are on that show. And he's there to talk about his new book, First Question, where do you get your protein? You know, but he was Johnny on the spot with it. It's like, he's been doing this forever and still it's the first question everybody wants.

• 25:24Speaker 01

  Which is the biggest, and that's what is really interesting about your story and why I think so many people are drawn to you. And when I tell people, I know this guy, he does this, they go, he did what? On plants? When I tell them about your finishing Ultraman twice, not even just competing it, but finishing the damn thing, you know? That really blows all that out of the water and you're, the fact that you are who you are and you are able to talk, you know, intelligently also helps in that.

• 25:53Rich Roll?

  Sometimes.

• 25:55Speaker 01

  That people kind of, the stereotype of the skinny, weak vegan. Guys out of the way. So I guess the, the question, the first question that I really actually didn't want to ask you, sorry.

• 26:08Speaker 01

  I've, we're here at your, your home, your beautiful home. And I've just been, for the last week, I've had a mate stay on my couch out in Venice and he's Texan. He's calls himself, he's a gentleman rancher, rancher, sorry, with the R on the end. And I've been feeding him green smoothies every morning, but we, I took him grocery shopping and he asked me the question, um, do you think it's more expensive to eat the way you eat, being vegan? I know you like to say plant-based, I appreciate that. So do you think it's cheaper to eat a regular American meat and potatoes diet versus a plant-based diet? And I'm a single guy living by myself, you're a father with a wife and four children.

• 26:51Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 26:51Speaker 01

  So I guess my first, that's my first question is like, that's a concern for a lot of people, I guess.

• 26:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it is. It's a valid, it's a valid concern. And the, I guess the, the quick answer is it can be a lot more expensive to eat plant-based. So you have to be a little bit more judicious and careful and, and do a little bit more homework about where you're sourcing your foods. If you're going to go to Whole Foods and try to buy everything that you need for your kitchen at Whole Foods, it's going to be a hell of a lot more expensive than going to Taco Bell every day.

• 27:25Speaker 01

  But just a, Whole Foods is a, is a chain of stores. It's like a supermarket that stocks like organic and, you know, grown in, in beds of organic grass-fed horse manure.

• 27:38Rich Roll?

  Right. It's very high-end and it's very, uh, overpriced often. The joke is it's called a whole paycheck. That's what you call it here. And, uh, and so, yeah, if you're gonna, if you're gonna be trying to buy all your foods there, it is going to be a lot more expensive. But, um, there are many, many ways of circumventing that. And we've actually found that, uh, it ends up being about the same, if not cheaper, if you're just a little bit more, um, aware of what you're doing. So for example, in the United States, there's a chain of grocery stores called Trader Joe's. So we get a lot of our stuff there. Um, not everything, like the produce isn't always so good there, but there's a lot of staples that we can get there that are, it's, it's pretty darn cheap.

• 28:20Speaker 01

  And when you say, when you say staples, cause people. Always ask me, it's like, what do you, what do you eat? Because they, it's so beyond their paradigm of I get up in the morning, I have cereal and I put milk in it. And then if I'm hungry in between, I make toast and then I have a burger or, or, or something for lunch, you know?

• 28:36Rich Roll?

  So in terms of what we eat, well, well, uh, you know, basically lots of produce, um, fresh vegetables, fresh fruit, uh, whole grains, legumes, seeds and nuts. And, you know, those are, that's, you know, basically all you're exempting is a lot of processed crap that everybody knows is bad for them. And then the meat and dairy products, right? And the meat products can be quite expensive, right? So you're eliminating those right off the top. So you're not buying ribeyes and all sorts of things that can jack up, um, you know, you know, the cash register. So, uh, and there are ways of getting produce relatively cheaply, right?

• 29:15Rich Roll?

  Like Trader Joe's doesn't always have the best produce, but lots of farmer's markets have co-op programs where you can get stuff pretty cheaply. There's lots of little markets peppered around Los Angeles, like there's one called Viarda in the deep valley. You can go there. I mean, literally you can fill your entire, uh, shopping cart for like 25 bucks.

• 29:33Speaker 01

  We do, we do live in a unique part of the world.

• 29:36Rich Roll?

  Right. And not everybody has that. So, and I'm, I'm empathetic to that. I'm not, I'm not, you know, I'm not unaware that, um, we're quite luckily, lucky living where we live. But, um, a lot of, when you say staples, like for example, brown rice or black beans and kidney beans. I mean, you can buy these things in bulk incredibly cheaply. And when they, they can provide the base of a million different dishes that you make. So, you know, maybe once or twice a week, my wife and I, and when I say that, I mean, my wife will, will cook up like, you know, uh, a lot of black beans and a lot of rice, and then we store it, you know? We can make soups out of that. We can make, um, stews out of that. We can make veggie burritos. And we always have plenty of food on tap.

• 30:20Rich Roll?

  And literally you can buy a giant pound, you know, bag of rice or beans for like pennies almost, right? So when that's providing kind of the base of a lot of your dishes, it becomes pretty inexpensive, really. I mean, if you're, if you're going to buy. Organic produce at Whole Foods and you're going to juice it all where you're going through a ridiculous amount of produce like that's going to add up fast. So it's just about making smart choices and dialing it in. But in terms of variety and staples, like there's more available than you might imagine and it doesn't have to be bland or boring.

• 30:49Speaker 01

  I guess the follow up question that I had to that was I started to wonder this might be, you know, when I have to get the Freakonomics guys in, but if you calculated over the course of your life until like as a man in your maybe 60s, how much money you spent on your groceries every week and then put on top of that, the angioplasty and the stent that you got put in.

• 31:10Rich Roll?

  Of course.

• 31:11Speaker 01

  Which rates from, I looked at it today. So I knew I was coming to see you. So research is like in America, it's anywhere between 25,000 to 100,000 dollars to get that stent put in.

• 31:20Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 31:21Speaker 01

  Then that just.

• 31:22Rich Roll?

  And that's just.

• 31:23Speaker 01

  Pretty much traced back to poor diet.

• 31:24Rich Roll?

  And that's normal operating procedure for a middle aged guy these days, unfortunately.

• 31:28Speaker 01

  So like if you could save yourself that, like how, I wonder how much, I wonder which is cheaper. Like that's the other thing. Like what's cheaper is getting the stent put in when you're in your 60s or spending a little more money on healthier food through your life and then having that money to go and buy your kids a college education.

• 31:45Rich Roll?

  Right. Exactly. I mean, the sky's the limit with healthcare costs the way they are right now and things that aren't covered by insurance and how high the deductibles are. Um, you know, we're getting sicker and sicker and sicker and more obese and more congenital disease and heart rate, you know, heart or heart disease rates are through the, I mean, it's ridiculous, right? Um, so the Freakonomics argument is very powerful. And if you balance all of that out, you're definitely going to save money eating a plant-based diet. The problem with that for a lot of people is that's not inspiring or motivating.

• 32:17Speaker 01

  Cause it's not now.

• 32:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's not now. And it's like, well, I want to go to In-N-Out right now. Like I'll worry about the stent later. You know, it's like people don't, that's not how people are wired. I'm not really wired like that. I mean. In my experience, pain is the true motivator to get people to change. And that's what made me change because I was in enough pain where I was willing to roll up my sleeves and get uncomfortable and do something that at the time I didn't necessarily want to do or believe that it would really impact my life that much. And it's been an amazing journey, but you know, I often ask myself, well, you know, what would you have just done this anyway? If somebody said, hey, you know, you're going to have a lot of healthcare costs coming up, you know, you better, you better straighten out like, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's hard, you know?

• 33:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, as humans, we're not, we're just not.

• 33:03Rich Roll?

  We're not, we're not. No, psychologically, we're not wired that way.

• 33:08Speaker 01

  So if you're Stephen, if Stephen Dubner's listening, uh, just go out and do that, please. Um, now I've, I got here early and I got to watch your kids, um, both your, you've got four children. And I watched both of your daughters make their afternoon snacks. Now, anyone with kids, I don't have any kids myself, but all my mates have got kids and getting any kind of vegetable into your child should be an Olympic sport.

• 33:36Speaker 01

  What is it like? You know, cause that just even like just explaining what I just saw these two girls make for themselves.

• 33:42Rich Roll?

  What did they make? I'm afraid to ask.

• 33:43Speaker 01

  Oh, one of them made herself the most amazing burger. She made it in the oven, the older one.

• 33:48Rich Roll?

  Right, Mathis.

• 33:49Speaker 01

  She made herself a burger in the oven with a roast, she roasted a mushroom.

• 33:54Rich Roll?

  Oh, like a portobello burger.

• 33:55Speaker 01

  Amazing. With lettuce and tomato and she roasted the bun and like versus coming home, opening a pop tart, throwing it in the toaster. Right? Like parents listening to this would probably be like, if only I could get my kids to do that. Like, is that, is that because that's just all they've known? And when they go to their friends' houses, what's the pressure like for your kids? Cause you raised your kids vegan as well.

• 34:19Rich Roll?

  We, yeah, I mean, to say we raise them vegan is a little bit.

• 34:23Speaker 01

  Sorry, I gotta stop saying vegan. It's to say you raise your kids like you on a plant-based diet.

• 34:27Rich Roll?

  Well, no, but even that is slightly inaccurate because it's been a kind of an evolving thing, you know? And first of all, I'm really glad that Mathis made a port, her own port developer.

• 34:37Speaker 01

  It made me really hungry, Rich.

• 34:39Rich Roll?

  She's nine, so that's pretty cool. And I know, you know, my 18-year-old Tyler comes it down in the morning and makes his kale smoothie on his own accord. And, and it's kind of amazing. You know, I take it for granted now and it's just normal, but it is amazing. And it didn't happen overnight. I mean, you know, I've been doing this for six years. And prior to that, it was, you know, it was whatever, right? But I think the most important thing from a parenting perspective, unfortunately, is you gotta walk your walk. You know, you can't expect your kids to make a healthy choice if you're not making that choice as well. And kids are smart. Like if you're sneaking off and waking up in the middle of the night to go eat ice cream,

• 35:21Rich Roll?

  they know, they know what's up, you know? So you have to do it yourself and lead by example. And, you know, several years later, they may or may not take a tip from that. But what we've done is, you know, the reason I kind of like, I didn't cringe, but I was like, I had a reaction to you saying, you know, you're raising your kids plant-based because we're not raising them with any agenda, really. We're just like, hey, we're filling our house with healthy foods and come to the, come to the market with us and help us pick them out. And we involve them, you know, we, we treat them like grownups, I guess, and to some degree with respect to this and give them respect and say, here's why we're getting these foods. Help us get this. What kind of this would you like? You know, and we, we set certain parameters around that.

• 36:06Rich Roll?

  But we, they're participating, you know, and then we bring it home. They help us put it away. They help us decide what we're gonna make for dinner. And then, you know, Julie likes to play around and come up with new recipes. So she'll have Mathis or Tyler travel like, hey, you know, what if we put this in here? I wonder how that would taste. And, and so they develop an emotional attachment to where their food is coming from, how it's prepared and what they're eating. And, you know, they've seen the changes that have happened with me. They've seen, you know, what's happened with their mom, like really kind of taking on this mantle of, of really learning how to be a vegan chef, which she's not trained to do, but she's really kind of discovered and fallen in love with and, and not setting any rules around it, you know? So.

• 36:48Rich Roll?

  You know, if Mathis, the nine year old who went and made the Portobello burger, she goes out to her friend's house or a birthday party and they have cake or pizza, she's welcome to eat that and I'm not going to judge her or have any problem with that. The point is, you know, we try to educate so that they can make the best, most informed decision for theirself and by not creating a rule around it, then you remove that, that thing to rebel against. So there's no emotional energy around the choice. You know what I mean? It's just like, hey, you know, we're trying to do the right thing. Do the best you can. We're humans. Nobody's going to be perfect around it. And I think when parents crack down on kids, that creates kind of a, you know, an FU mentality when they get older.

• 37:28Speaker 01

  And what about, because one of my, one of my best mates, Simone down in Australia, she has three daughters. She went and she became a vegan nutritionist. She raises her kids vegan. And I'm pretty sure there'd be the same thing here in, in America and that other parents are, you know, really awesome. And having kids is great because you just get all these heaps of free advice from other people about how to do it.

• 37:53Rich Roll?

  Unsolicited.

• 37:55Speaker 01

  What, yeah. What are other parents' reactions?

• 37:57Rich Roll?

  Let me tell you.

• 37:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. You shouldn't, your kid has to be eating cheese. They're gonna have, their bones are gonna break the first time they catch a football. Like, do other parents give you the stinky eye? Or, I mean, or do you not mix in those circles? Or what's other parents' reactions when they see, because it's fair enough, like, everyone's like, hear the story, like, oh yeah, my 14 year old, she started listening to punk music and stopped eating meat. Yeah, yeah. But a younger kid, like a kid kid, Simone's kids are, the youngest one's 11 weeks and there's one, I think, six, seven, and the other one's about four, I think. Um, you know, if, when you've got a kid like that.

• 38:33Rich Roll?

  Right. It's a big responsibility and every parent wants to make sure they're doing best by their child and making the right decision.

• 38:39Speaker 01

  They'll only, they'll only too happily tell another parent what they're doing wrong.

• 38:42Rich Roll?

  Of course. And, and, and there's a fear-based program around that too, because it's sort of like, all right, well, I know if I kind of feed them what everyone else is feeding them, that things will be probably, will be okay, right? But if I'm going to go outside the norm and do this thing that, that, you know, is potentially dicey, is that right? And of course, you're gonna, you're gonna get judgment for that. Um, you know, now, you know, we don't really get it to our face, really. You know, if people are talking behind our back, you know, that's conceivable. I'm sure that's going on.

• 39:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:13Rich Roll?

  Um, I'm not aware of it. Uh, all I know is that my kids are healthy and happy and Seem to be doing fine and, and you know, as a parent, we had, we need to make sure they're getting their B12 and their vitamin D and all of that. And we do that. But other than that, um, you know, they're all growing and, you know, developing mentally and physically and it's all fine. But I think the thing is, um,

• 39:35Speaker 01

  But you're also really, you're really careful about it. You don't just feed them salad. I mean, I used to, when I did,

• 39:40Rich Roll?

  No, no, no.

• 39:40Speaker 01

  I did, um, Idol in Australia. I was the host of the Australian version of Idol, um, which is called Australian Idol. It's called American Idol here. It's called Malaysian Idol there.

• 39:47Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 39:49Speaker 01

  And people knew that I, I, I was vegan and they would come up to me and go, you, I can't even tell you how many times it happened, Rich, when people would be like, oh yeah, I used to be vegan and then my hair fell out. Or I was vegan and then one of my kidneys failed.

• 39:59Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 39:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. Cause you didn't, you weren't smart and you didn't eat.

• 40:03Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 40:03Speaker 01

  You can't just eat salad.

• 40:05Rich Roll?

  You can, you can be unhealthy on a vegan diet. Just to say, I'm eating a vegan diet. First of all, I don't even know what that means. That can mean many, many things, you know? It can mean something that's very healthy. It can mean something that's very unhealthy. Uh, so just to say that, um, I don't have enough information. And when, you know, when people say things like that to me, you know, my question is, well, let's, let me find out what exactly you were eating, you know? And then, and we'll figure out what went, what went wrong. I mean, you could be a, I mean, now more than ever, you can be a crazy junk food vegan with all the, you know, processed kind of stuff they have that's non-dairy and non-animal and all the fake meats and cheeses and all of that. I mean, you know, if you go eat, I love Veggie Grill, but if you go there every day and eat the buffalo wings

• 40:47Rich Roll?

  with the, with the non-dairy ranch sauce, like that's not, you're not going to be doing too good after a while, I think.

• 40:54Speaker 01

  But they taste so good.

• 40:55Rich Roll?

  They do. And they're, and so people say to me like, do you cheat? You know, do you cheat on your vegan diet? And I was like, I don't cheat, but if I, like I consider having the buffalo wings at Veggie Grill kind of cheating, you know, because that's not a whole food plant-based diet. That's like a processed vegan food. And you can trick yourself into thinking, well, it's vegan. It's great, you know? So it's not, what's the problem? Um, and I think that's where people get into trouble because it's a very, you know, you can eat, it's about nutrition, nutrient density, you know? So you're eating foods that are very nutrient poor, um, but calorie high, regardless of whether they have dairy or animal products. And, um, you know, you're not going to be heading in a good direction.

• 41:33Speaker 01

  I have one more question about food and then I don't want to move on. Um, but there was one thing in your book that really completely blew my mind about. The microbes in your gut

• 41:45Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 41:45Speaker 01

  Driving the cravings. These are the things that aren't you. These are the bacteria that live inside you that

• 41:50Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 41:50Speaker 01

  That are not you. They're the little Individual organisms that we play host to.

• 41:55Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 41:56Speaker 01

  Drive our food cravings. And that completely freaked me out because I know you've said it. And I'm grateful you credit me every time, but yet I had a window diet for a long time. Whereas if I could drive up to the window, I would eat food out of it. And it was amazing. It would be 90 minutes to two hours after eating it that I would Be searching the side of the road for another Kentucky or Burger King or whatever.

• 42:18Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 42:19Speaker 01

  I was 21 or 22. I didn't know any better, but.

• 42:21Rich Roll?

  Your impulses have been hijacked.

• 42:23Speaker 01

  But now all I want is kale.

• 42:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I know. Right. Because you have a different microbial ecology.

• 42:28Speaker 01

  So this is the thing, like people go, I would be vegan, but I can't give up my cheese. I love my dairy. Like, is that just a case of changing?

• 42:37Rich Roll?

  I think there's two things going on with that. First of all, it's, it's kind of a The first part of that for me is, is an interesting kind of

• 42:46Rich Roll?

  Spiritual rabbit hole, because When you say like, I just can't give up my cheese, like, well, what is that? You know, what are you saying? Well, what you're doing is you're telling a story. And you're affirming that story by repeating it. And by repeating it enough, it becomes true. This is the story that you've created for yourself. And in some respect, there's an identity formed around that. And that becomes cemented, even if it has no bearing in reality. So you have the power to change that story if you want. That doesn't have to be your story. You can start to affirm something else and watch your life move in a different direction. The second part of it is the microbial thing. And that's like, it's a crazy, crazy story.

• 43:29Rich Roll?

  And, and I started to learn about this. I talk about it in the book.

• 43:36Rich Roll?

  My buddy, Compton Rom, who I've, he recently moved to Salt Lake, but I've gotta, gotta have this guy on the podcast because he's just a mind blower. Like, he knows so much. He's a, he's a, he has a PhD in microbiology and was a research doctor for a long time. And he started a holistic nutrition company called Ascended Health. He moved to, he moved to Salt Lake to kind of start, you know, building it. And he used to live down the street. And when I started training for Ultraman's, like, he was a friend. He's like, he wanted to use me as like his, his guinea pig, like, because he was trying all these crazy potions. He's like, I want you to drink this and see how it makes you feel and perform. And I go over to his house, just down the way, and I go into his kitchen, and, and it looked

• 44:21Rich Roll?

  like I'd walk in and there're just test tubes all over the place on the island in the kitchen. I was like, this looks like a meth lab in here. Like, what are you doing? You know? And he'd have crazy green potions boiling on the

• 44:31Speaker 01

  It's whole food, Richard. I promise you it's whole food.

• 44:33Rich Roll?

  And he's like, oh, it's awesome. I just came up with this new resveratrol turmeric, you know, potion. You gotta try this. And, and, and he started experimenting with, I'll get to your, answering your question. But this is a funny story. So, he started experimenting with using lasers to kind of repair muscle damage, you know, like the, the sort of lead red lasers that you see, you know, for pointers and things like that. So, he became very interested in that. And somehow, he found a way to order, like, a dozen or two dozen of these super high-powered lasers that were manufactured by a defense contractor to be used as, on, on sniper rifles, as like the scope, you know, where, you know, the

• 45:17Rich Roll?

  red, you see in the movie, like, the red dot or whatever. He's like, and he got them shipped to his house. And he's like, check it out. And he would like, beam it up on a cloudy night, and you could, it would go all the way up to the cloud. Like, he's like, it has like a five kilometer range on it, or some crazy distance, like, they were so powerful. And he's like, but they're awesome. You beam them on, like, if your knee is hurting, you kind of use it on your knee, and it helps, it's like, it creates like, an immune system response. That helps you sort of repair your body more quickly. And so he's experimenting with all these things. And I'm like, all right, dude, you realize like you're on some crazy homeland security list right now like you've ordered over the internet like these high powered like, you know, lasers that are used for sniper rifles.

• 46:01Rich Roll?

  You're going to get a knock on the door and these feds are going to walk in and they're going to see all this shit on in your kitchen. And you're going to you're headed for Guantanamo, man. We're never going to see you again. But anyway, he, he, uh, so he knows everything there is to know about microbes. And he was the first one who started to kind of educate me about this. And he's convinced, and I believe in him because I know his background, that, uh, that microbes, you know, basically dictate our health. And you're seeing more and more research coming out all the time. Like there was the recent thing about the effect of, of meat on, I think it was heart disease. A bunch of research studies came out recently.

• 46:45Rich Roll?

  And it had to do with, uh, the gut bacteria that are the result of eating those kind of animal products that was having the deleterious effects on health.

• 46:56Rich Roll?

  So, and I think there's a book that just came out to, I can't remember it right now, but if I, I'll, I'll, I'll put it in the show notes. About this relationship between your microbial ecology and your gut and your, and your wellness. And essentially, um, it's, it's a short section in the book, but I kind of describe it as, um,

• 47:17Rich Roll?

  you know, we think we're sentient beings, right? That we have power over our thoughts. We're made up of cells and those cells make up our organs and our systems and, and ultimately who we are. But really, uh, we're more microbe than human. Like our, we have 10 times the number of microbial likes, sort of single celled entities in our gut alone compared to all of our cells, like something like a trillion, you know, microbes in our, in our gut. And there's evidence to suggest that, that the nature, that these microbes somehow, in some totally bizarre way,

• 47:53Rich Roll?

  can impact our Nervous system in a way that that triggers our cravings. So for example, you eat McDonald's food and there's that food is has a certain microbial ecology built into it. And that starts to you eat it and it starts to populate in your gut, right? And then that starts to take over like the more you eat McDonald's, the more of those kind of microbes are in there. And then those microbes, they need more of that particular kind of food to live, right? So they're they're triggering your nervous system to say, we need more of that. We need more of that. And then that starts to take over. And suddenly you're driving around going, I never ate McDonald's for five years. I had it the other day and now I want it again. And I want, why do I

• 48:33Rich Roll?

  want it again? You know, like that craving impulse starts to take over. And it sounds wacky and like new agey and all that kind of stuff. But a great example

• 48:45Rich Roll?

  is in the documentary Super Size Me. So Morgan Spurlock starts to eat McDonald's, starts to eat McDonald's first couple of days. He's like having a hard time getting it down. He's in the car like he's on day two or whatever. And he throws up out the window like he just can't handle it. Right. And then like two weeks, two and a half weeks or something like that later, he wakes up, he feels horrible, like he's got headaches, he can't function properly. Then he goes to McDonald's and eats McDonald's feels great. He's like, I feel awesome now like, why is that? You know, it's like this relationship, this addictive relationship that starts to take over. It's sort of like, you know, if you're, if you're, if you're a heroin user and you know, you, the first time you use heroin, you're going to get sick, right? But then you're going to feel

• 49:28Rich Roll?

  sick until you get it. It's a similar kind of thing.

• 49:31Speaker 01

  So how, say, for example, someone's listening to this and like, you know, that's, I mean, that certainly describes my relationship with fast food when I was in my late teens and early twenties. How long does it take for that biology to change inside your gut if you started to change your diet slowly?

• 49:44Rich Roll?

  I can't say exactly. I think it's probably an individual thing, but I think it starts, it begins immediately upon the introduction of a different kind of food. So yeah, I mean, to sort of follow up and answer the question completely, you start eating healthier foods, they, they, there's a different microbial ecology that feeds on those kind of foods. Start eating more of that, you start to crave it. So you know, you never thought you liked kale before. Now you're like, I need that kale shake, you know, you will, your cravings will change in that. And then, you know, getting back to the spiritual part of it, that story that you tell, like, I need this, or I need this to live or feel good or whatever will begin to shift.

• 50:27Speaker 01

  So for a lot of, for a lot of people though, um, the idea to go plant-based is as if you're asking them to run Ultramet, like to, to, they may as well run a three-day event with a double marathon at the end of it, as change their entire diet, because it's all they've ever known. So, you know, it's all like with any training or with any change in your life, it's incremental. So if someone's listening and they're like, this is a really inspiring story. If only I could, I don't know where to start. What's like, you know, what's a small step? What's a thing like today, right now, when they put this podcast off that they can, they can possibly do?

• 51:06Rich Roll?

  Right. For the plant curious.

• 51:07Speaker 01

  For the plant curious. I like what you're doing.

• 51:10Rich Roll?

  I mean, first of all, I'm not telling anybody what to do or not do. Like, I'm just trying to share my experience, but I understand what you're saying.

• 51:15Speaker 01

  You may as well be saying, like, for example, um, I was in Brisbane and, uh, in Australia the other week and we were gonna go run, um, me and Dan Mack were gonna run the Noosa Half. And I talked to my brother's girlfriend. I said, well, you run, why don't you come? There's a 5K on the same day. Just like, oh, I can't do 5K. Like, it was as if I was asking you to run a marathon.

• 51:36Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 51:37Speaker 01

  Like, you run, you run, she runs all the time. But like, it was as, in her mind, they were the same thing. A 5K, which is for me, it's relative, it's like that. Um, yeah, for her, it was, it was just as insurmountable. Whereas just asking someone to, to change your entire diet, everything they know in their fridge, the fact that they can shop with their eyes shut, because they know exactly what they've always bought, every shopping list is the same for decades on end. Suddenly, it's this insurmountable thing to try and concede.

• 52:03Rich Roll?

  I think the biggest thing, if, if, if somebody could just try one thing, um, to begin to shift, it's having a green smoothie in the morning, you know, rather than pancakes or oatmeal or whatever. If you just made that one change and like blended kale and spinach with some pineapple or some berries or, you know, an orange banana, whatever it is, like some vegetable, dark leafy greens and some fruit, and you started your day with that every day, that's huge, you know? And I think that once you start doing that and you start to under you feel the relationship between what you're putting in your body and how you feel because it's undeniable. If you have a really good like Vitamix blended green juice in the morning or a juiced

• 52:48Rich Roll?

  or whatever it is, it doesn't, you don't need like the super fancy blender or whatever. Just do with, you know, do the best you can with what you have. And you start to eat those, start your day eating those kinds of foods and monitor how you feel an hour later versus how you feel after eating waffles or something like that. With, you know what I mean? I go, oh, man.

• 53:07Speaker 01

  A lot of people don't even.

• 53:08Rich Roll?

  You start to put it together and you're like, wow, I actually feel pretty good. Like, I don't feel all heavy and groggy and, you know, maybe I can try something else now. And it's starting, starting to make those little incremental changes and paying attention to how you feel, I think, is, is massive. And I think also, uh, yeah, it's this idea of like, oh, well, going plant based, that's too hard, there's no way, you know what I mean? It's too hard. Or people try it, they go, they make it three, four, or five days. And then they have a, you know, they go off the plan and go to In-N-Out Burger, whatever. It's too hard, forget it, you know? It's not about that. It's like letting go.

• 53:43Speaker 01

  I've seen my, my ex-wife, who never ate fast food her entire life, grew up in Israel. Her mom was with the Health and Producers Commission. And so she was incredibly healthy, healthy woman. When she ate In-N-Out Burger for the first time, I watched her eyes roll back in her head like it was the greatest thing she'd ever, ever, ever chewed on. So there's got to be something.

• 54:03Rich Roll?

  Right. No, there's, I don't know what they're putting in that, you know?

• 54:06Speaker 01

  I don't know, but it's people flying for it.

• 54:08Rich Roll?

  Well, it's sort of like that, I keep talking about this, so sorry if I'm repeating myself, but that new book that came out, uh, Sugar, Salt, Fat, or Salt, Sugar, Fat, whatever it is, talking about how these food companies are finding ways to put certain things in these foods that trigger the, the pleasure center and kind of activate that addictive response, you know? Julie's convinced that.

• 54:28Speaker 01

  Is your wife Julie?

• 54:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah, my wife Julie, she's convinced that Starbucks is putting something in their coffee that is like beyond, that's creating like an extra added like addictive response. Yeah. Cause she's, she's like, I notice it like if I go to Coffee Bean or if. I go to Pete's and I get my chai or something like that from another place. It doesn't feel the same. It's different. There's something about Starbucks, like she's got this conspiracy theory that they're doing something in there that is like, you know, creating that like need and drive to go back there. But getting back to your question, I mean, I think it's about letting go of this perception idea or perfection ideal. You know what I mean? Like, it's not about being perfect. It's not about adhering to, you know, some kind of idealized diet.

• 55:13Rich Roll?

  You set yourself up to fail, you know, we're human beings, we're fallible, we're going to fail. And when it comes to food, my goodness, you know, it's like, it's a challenge for all of us. So it's just about making more informed, educated choices and moving in a, in a right direction and like kind of giving yourself permission to fail once in a while and being okay with that so that you can kind of, you know, it doesn't like knock you out of the game.

• 55:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think just your fitness career and like, listen to the people that you've had on this podcast is absolutely, there's no shadow of a doubt that eating this way is enormously beneficial to like, not necessarily going to go out and do ultra fitness, but any kind of, any kind of sport. I did want to ask, who's the, um, who's the female rich role? Who's the, who's the, who's the female plant-based ultra athlete? Who's the, because it seems like it's, it's all, there's a lot of dudes. There's a lot of dudes doing this plant-based.

• 56:13Rich Roll?

  Kind of advocacy or whatever.

• 56:14Speaker 01

  Advocacy. Yeah. Who's the, who's the female rich role?

• 56:16Rich Roll?

  Who's the athlete? Who's the athlete you mean?

• 56:18Speaker 01

  Would it be Venus Williams, do you think?

• 56:21Rich Roll?

  Possibly, yeah. I mean, they're still kind of relatively new to it. Um, there's an Ironman athlete who also has done Ultraman named Hilary Biscay, who's amazing. She's incredible triathlete, super talented, you know, she's won Ironman, like a big Ironman race before, and um, she just kills it out there and uh, she's plant-based.

• 56:43Rich Roll?

  There aren't as many, well, there aren't as many, I don't know, I think that there's something, I think there are plenty of plant-based women out there. It's much, you know, like I just had Lisa Fallon-Mindel on the other day and she's killing it in age group triathlon races and, you know, is on the podium and all of that vegan. And she's a wellness coach and, you know, there's plenty of people out there like that. I think that, that a plant-based diet is an easier thing for a woman to kind of maneuver into. And maybe there's not this sort of feeling of the pressure to evangelize like maybe it is for the guys because it's so out of the masculine box for a guy to like do that and be an athlete that it's almost like you feel compelled to go, oh my God, who

• 57:25Rich Roll?

  would have thought? Like, you guys should check this out. Like, you know, there's a different way of doing this.

• 57:30Speaker 01

  Which I did want to talk about as well. And I think, like, the first time I, I, I met you, we were at a, one of your book talks. And that was the question I asked. I'm like, what's your, what are your thoughts on the emasculating the, the, the male vegan and, and or the guy who's on a plant-based diet? I know you had one of my favorite, I know it sounds like I'm pumping your tires, man, but one of the podcasts I listened to that I really like, actually you and James Lightning Wilkes, when he talks about, don't mistake my kindness for weakness. Don't mistake my compassion for weakness. The guy's in MMA death machine.

• 58:07Rich Roll?

  Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly.

• 58:09Speaker 01

  And in Australia, I actually, I was talking about it on another podcast down in Australia, there's a, there's a commercial where a guy goes to the fridge and he pulls out one of those, you know, like little box breakfast juices. And he sips it and he goes, makes this icky face. And his, in one version, his girlfriend comes in and the other version, his wife comes in and sees him making icky face and goes, you're making that face because we're going to my mother's, mother's house. How dare you, da, da, da, da. And like, just goes to town and it just totally emasculates him and tears shreds off him in the kitchen. And then the logo comes on, don't make soy face, have a real dairy drink. And I was like, God.

• 58:47Rich Roll?

  There's no shortage of commercials like that. They're, they're coming out like all the time. There was one for like Schick Razors that I, I tweeted about it recently. It was on, it was online and it was, it made some similar kind of crack about like what it means to be a man. And, you know, we just were constantly reinforcing this ridiculous stereotype. And it goes back to You know, the beginning of man, when man was the one who went out and slayed the beast and brought it back and that was what was, you know, your job and you weren't a man unless you could provide in that way. And we don't live in that world anymore. And that doesn't necessarily need to be the way that we define ourselves. And I think James's quote is profound. I mean, do you watch Game of Thrones?

• 59:32Speaker 01

  Love it.

• 59:33Rich Roll?

  All right. So, look at, look at the way, look at the way young King Joffrey rules.

• 59:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:38Rich Roll?

  So, his idea of being a man is to just be as aggressive and brutal as possible. And he feels like he is affirming him, his masculinity in that regard, but it's backfiring on him completely. He doesn't have the respect of, of anybody who knows what's going on. And the true, strong king is the, the king that understands restraint and compassion. And there's something inherently very masculine about that, you know, when to hold back and how to hold back and, and when you show kindness. And I think that's, that's interesting, you know, and I don't think it's talked about enough. And, you know, I mean, let's face it, since when is it, why is it considered manly to go down to the Ralph supermarket

• 1:00:20Rich Roll?

  or the Kroger, the, whatever, buy your chuck roast, bring it back and, and put it on the barbecue in the, in the backyard? Like, I don't understand what's, you know, that's, that's the manly thing to do. But again, that's a story we tell ourselves that we reaffirm. That really is kind of absurd.

• 1:00:36Speaker 01

  But it's totally, totally supported by all of the marketing around it.

• 1:00:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:41Speaker 01

  When I first, when I first shifted my diet and I started to come out of this haze of just eating, I guess, I want to say it differently, but it's exactly what it was, eating what I was told to.

• 1:00:51Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:00:52Speaker 01

  By the billboards and the magazines and the television commercials and the radio commercials. Once I came out of that, I had a look at like, it's almost inescapable, this diet that's marketed to the, you know, Western civilization. Like, this is what you should eat. You have to have this in the morning, you have to have this at lunch, you have to have this at dinner. And here's an easier, cheaper version. And here's a version where, you know, you can drive up to a window and get it. And, um, Do you think we're far away from seeing that kind of marketing for a healthier way of living?

• 1:01:23Rich Roll?

  I think that those marketing messages are incredibly powerful and they're backed by very well-funded corporate interests that have very vested interests in keeping us thinking and eating this way. There's a lot at stake, right? But I think that things are changing. You know, I'm optimistic and hopeful. You know, five years ago, the idea of eating plant-based wasn't where it is now. You know, you have people like President Clinton espousing the virtues of doing this and every day, somebody new and interesting is talking about it and it's part of the public discourse in a way that it never

• 1:02:06Rich Roll?

  has been before. And it's really not the provenance of the marginalized hippie anymore like it always has been. And, you know, that's the stereotype that I brought to it, you know, thinking about like, oh, well, if you're going to be vegan, you're the guy who's following the Grateful Dead around with the, you know, like with the dreadlocks and the hacky sack. And it's like, that's not my trip, man. I'm never gonna do that.

• 1:02:28Speaker 01

  You carry a VHS of atrocities at a chicken farm with you at all times.

• 1:02:31Rich Roll?

  Exactly. You know, like, I am not gonna be that guy. So if I'm gonna, I'm never gonna eat that way because I don't want to have anything to do with that, you know, that image, you know? And so it's about changing the dialogue to free ourselves from that definition, which I think, you know, is why plant-based is a better term because it's more neutral and it's not a politically charged term. It's more accessible for people. Plant power has its own kind of masculine connotation, which is why I like it. And just, you know, I was talking about Rip Esselstyn's new book, My Beef with Meat, which just came out yesterday. It's a couple hours ago. It was number 13 on

• 1:03:11Rich Roll?

  Amazon in All Books. And I'm sure by the end of today or tomorrow, it'll be in the top 10. That's every book on Amazon, right? Every book. So that tells me that this is gaining steam.

• 1:03:26Speaker 01

  So I've got it written here at the top of this page. Why now?

• 1:03:31Rich Roll?

  Now.

• 1:03:33Speaker 01

  Why?

• 1:03:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's.

• 1:03:34Speaker 01

  I've been, I've, I've been eating this way. When people, when I tell people I've been vegan for over 10 years, they're like, oh, oh, so you're not just doing it because it's fashionable.

• 1:03:44Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:03:45Speaker 01

  Today, or because you saw someone do it on, on The View. You're like, no, I've been, it's a long time.

• 1:03:50Rich Roll?

  Right. Why now?

• 1:03:51Speaker 01

  Why now?

• 1:03:51Rich Roll?

  It's almost like a Malcolm Gladwell question, uh, like a tipping, it's like a tipping point thing, right? Like, it's taken this long for enough people to kind of congeal around this concept. And for the information flow and the ideas to spread kind of organically and virally. You know, Rip Esselstyn's father, Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn, started treating cardiac patients with a plant-based diet back in the 1970s. It was anathema. He ended up losing his job at the Cleveland Clinic and like, he's been shouting from the mountaintops since then about, you know, basically his message then is exactly what it is now. And it took like Forks Over Knives and all these sort of books and, and documentaries to come out

• 1:04:36Rich Roll?

  to now where he's finally sort of being taken seriously and vindicated in a way. It took that long. So things take time, you know, it takes time for people to acclimate to new ideas and, you know, you see it, but now it really is becoming pervasive. I mean, we live in Los Angeles, so it's like every other restaurant now. You know, is vegan or offers vegan options. So we're spoiled in that regard, but, but, uh, you know, it's cropping up more and more and more. And I think, you know, I think Forks Over Knives actually had a lot to do with that, that documentary.

• 1:05:06Speaker 01

  I wonder what, because in, in Australia, we have a very different healthcare system where we have socialized medicine. And despite what many people's televisions tell them, it doesn't turn you into Russia. Everything's actually kind of okay.

• 1:05:18Rich Roll?

  I was just in Canada a couple of weeks ago and they were telling me about it and I was like, oh my God, I can't believe how good that sounds.

• 1:05:24Speaker 01

  It's pretty, it's pretty amazing. Um, but what it does is it puts the onus of responsibility for wellness kind of back on the people as a whole. And, you know, there's, you know, if, if you're going to get a lung transplant, my tax dollars, you're going to have to pay for it. So then that's kind of switches it around. And then you start, I've noticed in Australia, you start to see. First it was one quarter of an aisle at the supermarket where I would go and get like tofu and things like that. And now there's an entire gluten free aisle.

• 1:05:53Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:05:53Speaker 01

  All right. So, and it just goes on and on. It's just like getting bigger and bigger and bigger. Uh, down there, there's kind of the awareness for, for eating kind of at least more. Uh, what is, what does he say? Uh, Sid consciously?

• 1:06:10Rich Roll?

  Consciously.

• 1:06:10Speaker 01

  Sid Gosehelman, the guy with the hat?

• 1:06:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:13Speaker 01

  Um, he talks about it's like just people eating, just being aware.

• 1:06:18Rich Roll?

  And mindfully.

• 1:06:19Speaker 01

  Mindfully, that's the word. Being mindful about what you're eating, being mindful. It's not just a piece of meat on a styrofoam tray.

• 1:06:24Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:06:25Speaker 01

  You know, and so I just found, I just found it kind of interesting that when I was just down there the other day that this will make no sense to you, but you can get vegan Tim Tams in Australia, which

• 1:06:36Rich Roll?

  What's a Tim Tam?

• 1:06:36Speaker 01

  Dude, someone please send Rich some vegan Tim Tams so I can make him do a vegan Tim Tam slam. It's the greatest biscuit ever created by humans.

• 1:06:46Rich Roll?

  All right. So don't answer that question. I'll just wait to receive it in the mail.

• 1:06:50Speaker 01

  It truly, it truly, truly is.

• 1:06:52Rich Roll?

  Is that some kind of weird Vegemite?

• 1:06:54Speaker 01

  No, brother. I was Vegemite speaking by the way.

• 1:06:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:58Speaker 01

  Um, I did want to ask you about training because I have gone for runs with you. And if anyone ever gets the opportunity to go for a run with Rich, just kind of keep it in the back of your mind. Yeah, this guy, just the first time I asked him, well, what's your best marathon time? He goes, I don't know. I've never run one.

• 1:07:13Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:07:16Speaker 01

  I've run a double, I've run a back to back and I've done it with a swim and a bike on the other side of it, but I've never just run one.

• 1:07:22Rich Roll?

  I don't race that much.

• 1:07:24Speaker 01

  Uh, so we're, we're pounding up this hill and, uh, I, I want to ask you this because I want to know what you do. When you're doing those enormous endurance events, when you're swimming for 10 kilometers, when you're, uh, and then getting off and biking for, you know, another half a day or spending a whole day riding 200 miles. Surely even you, you've got the chat, chat, chat in your head. Because even yesterday, when you were asking me about where my heart rate is, the first time you asked me, I told you where it was, you're like, oh, you'd better slow down. From that point, every time I saw that heart rate, I didn't feel like I had to walk. I felt completely fine, but inside I was like, oh man, I'm gonna have to stop and walk now. Because I had that trigger in my head. Like, how do you overcome those negative thoughts, especially when you're getting fatigued,

• 1:08:09Speaker 01

  especially when you're getting tired? How do you, how do you, what do you do?

• 1:08:17Speaker 01

  Because that's all it is. It's just a thought. It's not actually have anything to do with my body or how much energy I've got.

• 1:08:22Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:08:25Rich Roll?

  It's tricky. Like, I wish I had like the magic bullet, like canned answer to that, that could solve everybody's problems.

• 1:08:32Speaker 01

  Tell me what you do when you're on the bike.

• 1:08:33Rich Roll?

  I think that, that, I think what I'm on those, whether it's a race or like a really long, challenging training session,

• 1:08:41Rich Roll?

  I try to get to like a state of no mind, where it's like an active meditation, where there's, there's no to very little thought going on. And that's a practice, that's like a meditation, it's like practicing meditation actively in the pursuit of training.

• 1:08:58Rich Roll?

  And the more I can get into that space, then time becomes a very elastic, right? And as I progress the training volume up from, you know, a two hour ride up to a 10 or 12 hour ride, like when I'm really maxing out on training, you know, I've gradually increased it, so I've acclimated slowly to the volume. So an eight hour ride like doesn't seem that long to me because it's that elastic nature of time. Because time's weird, you know, it's like when you're really hurting, you know, a minute can seem like forever, you know, but if you can get into that kind of like fugue state, where you have an elevated heart rate, but it's, you're fit enough to sustain it for a very long period of time. It's like this weird pipe cleaner through your system,

• 1:09:43Rich Roll?

  where everything gets cleansed out and you're like this weird blank slate.

• 1:09:47Speaker 01

  But something happened, man, something happened. You had, you had a DNF on your first marathon.

• 1:09:52Rich Roll?

  Uh.

• 1:09:52Speaker 01

  My first Ironman.

• 1:09:53Rich Roll?

  Oh, I did though. Well, I tried to run. Yeah, I tried to run a marathon before Ultraman.

• 1:09:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. So it happened to you.

• 1:09:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:00Speaker 01

  You stopped the, the, the, something happened in your mind and you had to.

• 1:10:05Rich Roll?

  And in my body.

• 1:10:05Speaker 01

  And in your body. Well, this is what I'm saying. At some point you were able to overcome that. And what, what was it that, that shifted? How did you get over that? How did you switch from the guy that has to go, oh no, I'm going to have to stop and walk, even though everyone's come to see me and I've told everyone I'm going to do this. And there's so much expectation to the guy that goes, you know what? Yes, my knee hurts a bit, but it's only a few more miles and I'm going to be fine.

• 1:10:26Rich Roll?

  Right. Preparation, you know, I took the training incredibly seriously. And I did everything in my training that I experienced everything in training that I would experience during the race. So by the time I lined up for the first Ultraman, I knew that I could complete it because I had done race simulate, I'd done three race simulation weekends in the two months, like sort of prior lead up. So the idea of running 52 miles on the third day, I'd run a 45 mile run, like so tired, I could barely get out of bed. So I knew I was ready and I knew I could do it. So when that moment came where it's like, I'm hurting, it's like, oh, well, I was here, you know, six weeks before and I was able to push through.

• 1:11:11Rich Roll?

  So I would like recollect those moments and draw on them for strength to say, oh, oh, you remember when you felt like that before? So, you know, there's no shortcut to that experience and putting the work in, you know, like when I DNF that, when I DNFed at Wildflower and when I DNFed in that marathon, you know, before I hired a coach and started to learn about training. You know, I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't have any experience and I hadn't trained properly to experience what to expect when I would kind of come across that in a race context.

• 1:11:41Speaker 01

  So, and I've, I've heard you talking about this about, I don't know, I have, because when you talked about it, I'm like, I do that too, the looping thoughts.

• 1:11:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:49Speaker 01

  Do you replace the loop of this is going to hurt, this hurts a lot with the loop of, I've been here before, I've been here before?

• 1:11:54Rich Roll?

  I try, you know? I mean, you know, you do your, the best you can. I mean, it's negative thought patterns can be addictive, you know what I mean? And again, it goes back like this is the story I'm telling myself. This hurts, this hurts, this hurts, this is horrible. When can I quit? When can I quit? And the more you kind of repeat that and cement that thought, then the more likely you are to quit, right? Irrespective of what your body's doing. So it's sort of, um.

• 1:12:20Rich Roll?

  It's drawing this distinction between higher consciousness and thought, right? So we kind of walk around and think, well, our thoughts are who we are. But that's actually not true. And in my experience, it's not true. You, you can be aware of your thoughts, which by very definition means there is, there's a distinction between your consciousness and your, and your thinking mind. Right? If you can sort of have a judgment on your thoughts somewhat simultaneously with having the thought, then that must be two different things going on right now, two different systems. Right? So to recognize that thought for what it is and to make a decision about how much power you're going to give it and to say, it's just a thought.

• 1:13:04Rich Roll?

  I, I can choose, my higher self can choose to pay attention to that and to give it strength and power, or I can choose to dismiss it and replace it with a thought, another thought pattern that will hopefully loop, that will kind of point me more in the direction of the goal that I'm trying to achieve.

• 1:13:20Speaker 01

  You've just launched a thousand PRs right now.

• 1:13:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I hope so.

• 1:13:26Speaker 01

  No, really, because as the more I train, the more I go for, you know, doing marathons and then signing up for this ultra and to do this ultra, the more that I realize how much work I have to put into that aspect of my training. I have to, not only do I have to work on, you know, doing the long runs and doing the intervals and things like that, work on my nutrition, I have to work on what happens between my ears.

• 1:13:47Rich Roll?

  Absolutely.

• 1:13:48Speaker 01

  When I get really fatigued.

• 1:13:49Rich Roll?

  Absolutely. You know, I say it all the time that, you know, one of the kind of guys that inspired me to do Ultraman in the beginning was this guy, David Goggins, amazing, incredible athlete, Navy SEAL, had been like a football player and a power lifter. At one time weighed like, I don't know, 250, 280 pounds or something like that and decided he wanted to go and try the 10 hardest endurance challenges in the world to honor his fallen brethren, who had, people who had lost their lives in overseas wars.

• 1:14:20Rich Roll?

  And he had never been a runner or a triathlete and then he threw himself into doing races like Badwater and Ultraman and did quite well despite not fitting the prototype at all, like not looking like a runner, not really training like a runner or a triathlete and, and just being an overall badass, basically.

• 1:14:36Speaker 01

  And now you seal black ops head training.

• 1:14:40Rich Roll?

  Exactly. Yeah, like a laser focus, right? And he said, uh, he said, um, when you think you're done and cooked, you've actually only accomplished about 40% of, of what you're capable of. So, and it's a, it's a mental barrier. It's not the body. The body is not the limiter, it's the mind. And so when you go out and you're training to be aware of that, that you're not just training your body, you're also training your mind, you're training your spirit and, and every workout has a purpose and you should be conscious of what you're doing. Like it's easy to just, oh, I have an hour, I'm going to go out and run, do that, you know, fuck off or whatever, but to, to go, all right, well, you know, what are some things that I can work on mentally? Like what are, what are the things that generally trip me up? What can I do differently?

• 1:15:24Rich Roll?

  And it's like rebooting your operating system, you know?

• 1:15:27Speaker 01

  Lucky, lucky we got all that time out on the trail. Um, since the, since the hard covers come out, um, it's, and this must've been such a thrill. I don't even know how you would've been able to sleep at night when you found out that this book did it. Now, I hope I got it this right. It became a part of the curriculum at a college and you went to go speak at that college? What was that experience like?

• 1:15:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it was crazy. That was a, that was a crazy, cool experience. Well, I got asked to, um, from time to time I get asked to go and speak and usually it's like a veg fest, you know, sort of like preaching to the choir, you know, to the converted, you know, like, and in the summertime, there are all these veg, every city's got one, you know, you kind of go on tour and it's the same people that are speaking.

• 1:16:09Speaker 01

  I never have to pack, I never have to pack traveling food when I go there, cause I'll just get something.

• 1:16:13Rich Roll?

  Oh yeah, you go there and it's like all the food's there. It's awesome.

• 1:16:16Speaker 01

  Normally I'm taking bags of nuts and bananas. I'm taking all my food with me.

• 1:16:19Rich Roll?

  And they, and they, and all the vendors are giving it to you and you get goody bags and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, it's awesome.

• 1:16:25Speaker 01

  I'll bring my own toothpick.

• 1:16:26Rich Roll?

  But yeah, I got asked to come out to Charleston, South Carolina and speak at the College of Charleston. And I was like, oh, cool. The first, like, I've never spoke at a college before. That's pretty cool. And what I didn't find out until like, just before I was going there was that they had put my book on the freshman curriculum. It's required reading in this required freshman course called The Freshman Experience, which I gather has something to do with like, kind of, you know, giving freshman students kind of an alternative experience to the typical kind of college curriculum. I don't fully understand it completely, but it's pretty cool, man. I got to go and speak to the students and I also spoke to the general public there.

• 1:17:08Rich Roll?

  And it was like, wow, I can't believe I wrote a book that's being taught in a college. Like, that is such a trip.

• 1:17:12Speaker 01

  Were they, now, this is the, were they approaching it from a place of, yes, you could go and, you know, try and live the dream that you saw in Animal House or Revenge of the Nerds, but have a read of this guy's book and see that he actually did that. And then was that the angle they were coming from?

• 1:17:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, I think that the guy who kind of put it together is a big, you know, like, sort of vegan advocate. And he just, you know, loved the book and wanted me to come out. So there was definitely kind of the the plant-based diet component of that that contributed to it. But I think, kind of, you know, in a more general sense, the book, it had a little bit of a slow debut because, you know, there's a picture of a guy running on the cover. And it's like, oh, well, this is a book for runners about how to be a better runner, you know? And that appeals to a certain demographic of people, but that's not a huge, you know, that's not, that's not the general public at large, right? And it took, it took time for word to kind of get out or spread that actually it's,

• 1:18:14Rich Roll?

  that's sort of the surface level story, but it's really about How do you access a better version of yourself? And diet is certainly like the beginning portal to that, but it's not the be all, end all. That's like the starting line. And once you kind of clean up your diet, and you know, in my case, plant-based, and I stand by that being optimal, at least in my experience. Then what? You know, it's sort of like you develop a clarity of mind and a more energized kind of feeling of being in your body and an increase in vitality and energy. And then what do you channel that towards? And so the message really, or the theme that I'm, was trying to express, that hopefully comes across, is that it's an opportunity,

• 1:18:57Rich Roll?

  it's a growth opportunity to access and unlock a better, more authentic version of yourself, to more fully express something that maybe is locked deep inside you, or has been latent, or that you've been afraid to kind of pursue. And it gives people like a permission, or a little bit of an inspirational roadmap to kind of begin that journey. And it has nothing to do with running, or Ultraman, or any of that. It could be playing the banjo, or whatever. And so, in the context of speaking at colleges, there's that. There's sort of this call to action to invest in yourself, to think differently, to not like be an automaton, to just do your homework, but to actually do what I didn't do in college,

• 1:19:42Rich Roll?

  which was to develop a relationship with myself, to try to understand what is it that I want to express and offer? What do I want to devote my life to? And college is like the fertile ground to kind of begin that journey. And you know, unfortunately, I was too loaded.

• 1:19:58Speaker 01

  This is what I was gonna ask.

• 1:20:00Rich Roll?

  And disconnected from myself to do that.

• 1:20:01Speaker 01

  So, go back, what is it, 27 years? You're at college, and they say, "Oh, this Ultraman athlete's gonna come and talk to you." Like, what, do you think it would have changed your life if you, as you were, saw you speak now?

• 1:20:15Rich Roll?

  Probably not.

• 1:20:17Speaker 01

  You know, I was just getting going. My alcoholism was just starting to kick in. You know, it's like, I actually found that bit of the book like so visual to read. I was, because that was my 17, 18, 19 year old experience. It was just an endless, it was house parties and beer. Right. Just unstoppable. And it was nuts. Yeah. Crazy.

• 1:20:36Rich Roll?

  I don't think I could have, I wouldn't have been able to hear it, you know? You know, the, the, this sort of, uh, you know, the message presents itself when the person is ready to hear it. You know, personally, I wouldn't have been ready to hear it, but you know, maybe there are other people. Maybe I would have, I don't know. You know what I mean? Like, I remember being in high school and they carted in some recovering alcoholic to come and talk to us. And he told some crazy stories about how like, he just couldn't watch football or have, or have pizza anymore without getting drunk. And I just thought that was, you know, absurd. And this was like, before I even started drinking. And I was like, I don't want any part of that dude. Like, first of all, he doesn't look like he's enjoying his life. And, and, uh, and I don't know what I'm supposed to be getting out of this.

• 1:21:21Rich Roll?

  And, you know, I, I still remember that, but I remember being kind of turned off at the time. And, and maybe there was a preachiness to it. I'm, I'm not sure or whatever. So, you know, how do you relate to a college student? How do you get through to them and help and, and hopefully inspire them? So you don't do it by telling them, don't drink and eat healthy food. You just try to tell us, tell a story and see if it kind of connects with somebody.

• 1:21:46Speaker 01

  What was their reaction? Did guys and girls come up to you afterwards?

• 1:21:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah, for sure. Um, you know, not everybody, but you know, definitely like I did a Q and A. And there were plenty of students who were like, how do you do this? And how do you do that? And, um, it was cool, man.

• 1:22:10Speaker 01

  When you were drinking, you would still go into the gym, right? You were still working out.

• 1:22:14Rich Roll?

  Occasionally, not near, not in the latter years, but you know, there was a good, yeah, there was a, well, first of all, I started drinking alcoholically when I was still a competitive swimmer, trying to do two of the, both of those things at the same time. Which didn't work out too well. But I think I know what, what are you getting? I think I know where you're going with this, but.

• 1:22:35Speaker 01

  I'm just kind of getting, what was, what was your, well, let me just go back and then, and I'll ask you this question. Cause I'm really fascinated to know.

• 1:22:43Speaker 01

  You got into what Stanford was it?

• 1:22:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:46Speaker 01

  On the back of your swimming?

• 1:22:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, I was a good student too, but I probably wouldn't have gotten into Stanford without the swimming certainly.

• 1:22:54Speaker 01

  So when your your competitive peak, which you talk about in the book was in swimming was in college, right?

• 1:23:00Rich Roll?

  My freshman year was the last time that I swam fast. Yeah.

• 1:23:03Speaker 01

  So who's fitter? That Rich Roll? Or, you know, or if you were eating the way you did now, if you lived your life the way you did now, when you were there, where you had that opportunity, that swim program, that coach, that school?

• 1:23:17Speaker 01

  Do you ever think about what what might have been? What could have happened?

• 1:23:19Rich Roll?

  Of course, unquestionably. I mean, but who doesn't? You know, that's not, you know, unique to me. I mean, I think most people or a lot of people go, God, if I could go to college now, knowing what I know now, like, you know.

• 1:23:32Speaker 01

  I'd already have a degree.

• 1:23:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, well, just, you know, you think back to college and you're like, oh my God, like, basically, the whole world was available to me. It was there for the taking if I just kind of could have showed up for it in a different, more responsible way, you know? I mean.

• 1:23:45Speaker 01

  Okay, so it's a bit unfair of a question because you're right. So I guess the question is like, who's fitter? Plant-based Rich in his mid 40s or that Rich?

• 1:23:54Rich Roll?

  What's your definition of fit?

• 1:23:57Speaker 01

  Um, that's a good question. Like, who's? I ask this because

• 1:24:06Speaker 01

  the reason, the way I got into eating a plant-based diet was a very different way from everybody else. There's this, there's this game we play in Australia called cricket.

• 1:24:13Rich Roll?

  All right. I've never heard of that.

• 1:24:14Speaker 01

  All right. It's it's kind of.

• 1:24:16Rich Roll?

  And now here's the point, here's the part where you start to explain the rules of cricket.

• 1:24:20Speaker 01

  It's exactly like baseball.

• 1:24:21Rich Roll?

  And we hear crickets.

• 1:24:23Speaker 01

  No, it's a cricket is exactly like baseball is that I hit a ball to you, I throw a ball to you, you hit the ball away for a certain distance and you have to get from one place to another before the ball comes back. All right, you get out the same way, caught on the fall, la, la, la. So we have this, except cricket can go for five days. And when when we have a World Series, we actually play other countries.

• 1:24:43Rich Roll?

  All right.

• 1:24:45Speaker 01

  Not like this World Series.

• 1:24:45Rich Roll?

  Five days.

• 1:24:46Speaker 01

  Five days. We have games to go for five days and a hundred thousand people show up and it's the greatest. Anyway, so one of the greatest cricket players, uh, my country, Australia's ever seen was a guy by the name of Greg Chapel. And he was a god when we were kids. A god. All right. And he wrote a book called The Men's Health Manual or The Men's Health Repair Manual. I read it when I was twenty three, twenty four. And he was talking about a plant-based, he was in his fifties at this point. He was talking about eating plant-based and his experience of quitting dairy. And he said there is like, here's, I'm fifty something right now. And the way I eat right now, I'm fitter, faster, sharper than when I was considered the best batsman on the face of the earth.

• 1:25:24Speaker 01

  And he did lament for a second about, you know, if, if I did it then, there was this big sporting record, like breaking, I guess it's like breaking Babe Ruth's big record. Like I would have broken it. It would have smashed to pieces if I was eating the way I do now. And that really affected me because it had nothing to do with dreadlocks. It had nothing to do with patchouli oil. It was just the guy who was this icon. That's back when, you know, sport had beards, men had beards, mustaches, you know, it was like, manly. Big V-neck shirts and like, like here's this guy who was this super masculine dude going, I am fitter, more powerful and faster now than I was when I was considered the greatest athlete.

• 1:26:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's amazing. Um, no, I, I know where he's coming from and I, I feel the same way. I mean, I would, I guess I asked you the question of what's your definition of fitness? Because for me, fitness now, uh, is sort of a holistic definition of kind of being balanced between mind, body and spirit. Certainly way more fit now than I was in college. I was completely out of balance. I could bench press more in college and I could swim the hundred butterfly faster in college than I, than I can now, for sure. Um, so on that very limited, um, kind of definition of fitness, uh, you could, I guess you could make the argument that I was fitter in college. When I was swimming five hours a day and not cycling and not running and I was eighteen, you know what I mean? Well, when you're eighteen, you do anything. Six years old, right?

• 1:26:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:45Rich Roll?

  But I would consider myself way more fit now and, and sort of connected to my body and, you know, kind of self-aware and dialed in for sure. No question about it.

• 1:27:01Rich Roll?

  And had I been plant-based in college, I mean, dude, you know, like, I think about that all the time, you know, all the time. It's interesting, I got a little side anecdote I had on a podcast, maybe a month or so, or maybe, no, it was one of my earlier guests, my friend Garrett Weber-Gill, who is an Olympic gold medalist swimmer, swim for the University of Texas, and he was on that four by 100 free relay at the Beijing Olympics, where the United States came from behind and beat France and Michael Phelps, and it was like a big deal, right? Like, he was an amazing swimmer, like incredibly fast, super into food, he's got a website called Athletic Foodie, and he's a professional swimmer now,

• 1:27:45Rich Roll?

  trying again for the Olympics. And he left me a voicemail over the weekend, he was in Charlotte at a big meet, I think it's called the Ultra Swims, a big swim meet every spring in Charlotte, North Carolina. He's like, "Hey, Rich, it's Garrett, I'm out here in Charlotte, the meet, I'm at Ricky Baron's house." Ricky's like another, like, massive, like, swim star, right? And he's like, "We're having lunch, we're talking about food and nutrition and health and plant-based and all this kind of stuff." And this guy, Mike Alexandrov, he's a, he's a, like, an Olympic, you know, 100 breast stoker, guy's like amazing swimmer. He starts telling me how he's read this book, and, you know, he's starting to learn about being plant-based, he started eating chia seeds in the morning, and he's

• 1:28:26Rich Roll?

  got all this energy, and he's just killing it in his workouts. And then I was like, "Wow, that's cool." Like, I wasn't, I didn't, I'd heard the name Mike Alexandrov, but I didn't know who he was. And I was like, I checked him out online, he ended up winning, like, the 100 breaststroke, and the 200 breaststroke at that meet that weekend. And I emailed him, I'm like, "Dude, chia seeds are rocking it out for you." And like, I don't know if he's completely plant-based, but it sounds like he's, you know, probably kind of leaning in that direction, maybe more so than most swimmers, because Garrett was telling me they still, most swimmers eat abominably. But for him to be, you know, like, for a swimmer at that level, at that elite level, to be, you know, there's a lot of fear. You know, it's like, even if you read a book and it says, "Absolutely, this diet will make

• 1:29:09Rich Roll?

  you a better athlete," it's sort of like, it's scary to try something different than what you've been told, even if you kind of believe it intellectually, in the back of your mind, you're like, "Yeah, but I don't know," you know, and it takes balls and courage to try something different, because there's a lot to lose when you're an athlete at that level, and that's your job.

• 1:29:28Speaker 01

  I think in, you know, you hear it kind of bandied about, and especially when in the wake of what we've seen in the last 12 months, when just the international bodies are cracking down on doping, cracking down hard, athletes are just gonna look to nutrition. They're gonna look to nutrition for the advantage.

• 1:29:46Rich Roll?

  Right, I hope so.

• 1:29:47Speaker 01

  That's where they're gonna look, and that's, hopefully, they'll find that. And like then, it's not the cover of a Wheaties box, it'll be the cover of the kale packet. Hey!

• 1:29:56Rich Roll?

  Right. The irony is that, for the most part, you know, at least in my experience, you know, athletes are so like, they're all about, you know, what's my workout and training really hard, and even like extending that to all the kind of rehab stuff they do, and weight room and strength, and, but then when it comes to diet, it's just like, whatever. You know, like, they'll just eat whatever because they're hungry, and they're just like calories in, calories out. And this same guy, Garrett, was telling me, he was at the Olympic Training Center in Colorado Springs for a training camp, and this is where America's best and brightest go to prepare for the Olympics. And I was like, how's the cafeteria there? And he was just like, ugh, really? He was like, you wouldn't believe, he's like, they have healthy options there, but you kind of have to ask for it.

• 1:30:40Speaker 01

  It's the Olympic training camp.

• 1:30:41Rich Roll?

  It's like, yeah, exactly, right?

• 1:30:42Speaker 01

  I can't believe it. I don't believe it.

• 1:30:44Rich Roll?

  There's a lot of work to be done still.

• 1:30:46Speaker 01

  That's astonishing. That's absolutely astonishing.

• 1:30:49Rich Roll?

  Well, and it goes, you know, there's a lot of, you know, there's just, it's, I mean, where do you even point the finger? You know, it's like, there's a lot of education that still needs to have to happen.

• 1:30:58Speaker 01

  You get your mate to tell his buddy there at Colorado Springs to get you and Julie in there, and you and your wife to go in there.

• 1:31:04Rich Roll?

  Dial it in, right.

• 1:31:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, this is, you know, this is the, where does, where does this go? I mean, obviously, even the very first time, you considered raising your, or having your kids eat mostly a plant-based thing. You guys, you're intelligent, you know, husband and wife, you know, we should really figure this out and make sure that all their bones and everything are gonna grow right. Like, you didn't just guess it. You obviously did your homework. So, it's in education that, you know, this is as a way of eating and a way of living and a way of creating the best version of yourself is gonna move forward, isn't it? And like, so in your experience or your opinion, beyond things like this podcast, like- Where do you see this kind of education coming from?

• 1:31:46Speaker 01

  Do you see perhaps, you know, putting, putting like, it's in the freshman class at one university. What about, you know, in the, in the primary school or in a, in a high school?

• 1:31:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, that's, that's the goal. You know what I mean? And it starts with word of mouth and it starts with things like little podcasts like this. And then, and then it grows to, you know, books like Finding Ultra and My Beef With Meat, you know, and people starting to get the word out. And then it creates like a momentum around it. The problem is that, like we were talking about before, there's a lot of cemented vested interests that, you know, really don't want to budge, you know? So there's huge food companies that are providing the school systems with the food, you know?

• 1:32:26Speaker 01

  That's right, because here in America, here in America, the cafeteria, the kids ate lunch at school.

• 1:32:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, you can bring your own lunch, but you know, school lunch in America is abominable. It is absolutely horrific, the food that they're given and what they're told is healthy or not. And what, you know, there's regulations, like they have to have a fruit and they have to have a vegetable. But, you know, when they can characterize ketchup as a vegetable, you know, it's just, it's absurd. And, you know, there's been people that have been working hard to try to change it. You know, Jamie Oliver had that TV show, was it last year or a couple of years, years ago called Food Revolution? And I thought it was wonderful, you know? He went into this small town and he kind of revolutionized their little, um, I think it was in Pennsylvania, change your school lunch program. And, you know, he was able to kind of expose standard operating procedure at these schools

• 1:33:16Rich Roll?

  and enact some small changes and kind of empower the kids and the teachers and the faculty or whatever to take greater responsibility for that. And then, um, the story I heard was that the next season he wanted to come to Los Angeles and do the same thing, you know, at this larger, more entrenched school district program. And it just wasn't going to happen. Like he couldn't get, he couldn't get it going because there was too much political resistance. Because there's too much money involved with these people.

• 1:33:43Speaker 01

  From the contractors that provide the food, the trucking and all that?

• 1:33:46Rich Roll?

  Absolutely, yeah, there's unions and there's lobbying groups and, you know, there's a lot of, you know, powerful interests that really don't want any of these changes to happen.

• 1:33:57Speaker 01

  People don't, people don't even consider that that would even go on. Like, we're these weird, we are these weird creatures. We have to put something in our bodies at least three times a day or we get cranky, irritable, and after a couple of weeks we die. And so it's such a... We will forgive a lot of badness around it as I'm hungry, it gets to a point where you're so hungry, I don't care, I'll just have it, put it in my, in my face. You talk about it in your book when you bonked riding and you pulled over and you ate out of a garbage dumpster.

• 1:34:22Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:34:23Speaker 01

  You know, but you were at that point, you were like, dude, I've just gotta eat. And so people tend not to want to think about that. They tend not to want to think that some.

• 1:34:30Rich Roll?

  Well, then you, when you start to kind of say, well, here's how it really works, you start sounding like some kind of lunatic conspiracy theorist.

• 1:34:36Speaker 01

  I did bring my tinfoil hat.

• 1:34:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I know. But on that note, there was a story, a big story about a week ago about a public school in New York in Queens, that is the first public school to institute a vegetarian school lunch program, which is like amazing, right? Like, so when you understand like how entrenched these, these, these interests are, to be able to enact a seismic change like that is, is like a big deal, right? So I'm actually, I'm going to New York tomorrow and I've got a bunch of podcast interviews lined up when I'm there, but I'm going to go out to that school and interview some of the people that are known of that. So I want to, I want to know like, how did that happen? But you know, it's like, it's, it's an amazing story.

• 1:35:21Speaker 01

  Cause like, as we're going, circling back to where we started, watching your kids make their afternoon snack today, this is the time of their life where they create their food habits. And if the food habit they're getting at school is slop on a plate with some cut up peach in a can. And you know, that's then, I know when I first started living alone, when I started, when I moved out, I went to the grocery store and I was like, well, what do I get? Oh, I get what I've always eaten. And I didn't know anything else.

• 1:35:50Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:35:52Speaker 01

  And so, and education was a very big part of me. And yeah, totally. I've, I've made some big mistakes and I conk out a lot of the time and I just eat pasta all week and, and freak out. But speaking of your family, this, this has nothing to do with anything that you have written in your book, nor what you've talked about on your podcast, which I am kind of interesting, interested to know, what, considering it's something that I'm not, and there's a lot of people who are listening that are not, that are considering that this is in their future, what do I need to know about being a father?

• 1:36:29Rich Roll?

  Oh dude, you're coming out of left field with that one.

• 1:36:34Rich Roll?

  That's pretty heavy.

• 1:36:35Speaker 01

  Watching you yesterday, Rich and I went for a run up a mountain. Well, Rich strolled and frolicked on the mountain.

• 1:36:41Rich Roll?

  It was freaking hot out yesterday, man.

• 1:36:44Speaker 01

  It was like a hundred degrees at like 8 a.m. It was hot. We came home and one of his daughters is just frolicking in the pool and just watching the two of you interact, watching the two of you light up like that. I was like, man, there's something, that's a relationship in your life that you're not going to get anywhere else. And like, what, to guys who are like, I don't know about kids, guys who are afraid of kids, guys who are like, meet a girl and they go, yeah, but she wants kids. And they're terrified of it. What would you, so let me ask you, let me get in that way. What would you say to them?

• 1:37:14Rich Roll?

  I would say that I'm not the guy who was walking around going, I can't wait to have kids in a family. You know what I mean? Like, I love my kids and I can't imagine my life without them. They've enriched my life in ways I can't even articulate. But it wasn't like I was that guy who was like yearning for it his whole life. In fact, when I got sober, my relationship experience had been so horrible that, you know, I wasn't even sure I ever wanted to be in a relationship again, let alone be married. And it took a lot of years of work and, and to get to a place where I was even comfortable being

• 1:37:56Rich Roll?

  intimate with another person, you know, feeling, be feeling safe in that, in that respect. And I thought that my next girlfriend would be, you know, five, five to seven years younger than me and, and hopefully relatively issue free. You know what I mean? Like, after this experience that I had with this terrible kind of marriage thing that happened that I talk about in the book. But, you know, life and love doesn't, doesn't work that way. You know what I mean? You know, I met Julie. She already had two boys from a previous marriage and the heart wants what the heart wants. So when I, you know, when I wanted to pursue a relationship with Julie, it came, you know, it was the whole package kind of coming in with it. Not that I, you know, they had, I wasn't trying to replace their

• 1:38:40Rich Roll?

  dad who was very much in their life. He's since passed away, but. But I was like, oh, wow. Like, I had like instant kind of family situation going on. And that was not in the that was not what I was kind of well, to say wanting is a weird word, but it wasn't what I had programmed for me. But then realizing, you know, how amazing that was and then wanting, you know, my own children as a result of that.

• 1:39:08Speaker 01

  So what was the what was the click? Was it the fact that Julie turned up with these these guys and you kind of got to have a bit of a test run?

• 1:39:15Rich Roll?

  There was a little bit of that. You know what I mean? Like, it was a little bit of the sort of being the cool uncle for a while and getting used to being around young people before I had my own kids. So I had like a little bit of a little bit more experience than maybe a new dad. Because I was, you know, I got to spend so much time with these young boys that were three and four when I first met them. And also, when, you know, when I had my first child with Julie, she'd been through it before. So there wasn't any of that new parent panic, you know, like, maybe I was panicked, but she's like, it's handled. You know what I mean? Like, don't worry about it. Like, I've done this before. It's gonna be okay.

• 1:39:53Speaker 01

  So just just go just go back at least at least nine and a half months. Just go back, go back to where like, where was the switch from, oh, I don't even know if I want this, don't know if I can have this in my life to, you know what? Yeah, I do want this. What was like, I'm asking, because there are a lot of guys that go, oh, I don't know if I could ever do it. And they're too afraid to. And all of a sudden, they turn around, they're like, oh, shit, 50.

• 1:40:19Rich Roll?

  Right. And honestly, I think that

• 1:40:21Speaker 01

  Women too.

• 1:40:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, I think it first started with being in a healthy relationship, you know, and that kind of like grounded me in a certain way and made me want to build on that. So the first part was was being being healthy with my partner, you know what I mean? And that took a lot of work, like I said, to be able to kind of be in that space after never being in a healthy relationship my whole life.

• 1:40:45Rich Roll?

  And with that grounding comes, I think, a level of sort of settling or domestication, where you get more comfortable with that idea. And then having the boys around going, "Yeah, I wanna, I wanna build this. I want more of this in my life." I mean, you know, I think that, that, uh, you know, for people that don't want kids, that's fine. That's a choice. I have no judgment on that. You know, the only thing that I can offer is that it makes me feel more complete, you know? It gives me purpose and grounding and, and direction that I don't think that I would have without kids. And, you know, it's weird. It's like, uh, you know, if there's any kind of criticism from the book, it's like, you always get like a little bit of snark or whatever. It's like, "Oh, this guy is like

• 1:41:30Rich Roll?

  so irresponsible with his kids. He just goes off and trains all day and like his poor wife and kids." And it's like, that's not what's going on at all. I mean, you've been around my family. You have a sense of like how we kind of function. Um, you know, there are times where I've put a lot of time into training, but never at the cost of my family and kids. And, and, you know, I would never sacrifice that for some midlife athletic goal. Uh,

• 1:41:58Rich Roll?

  it requires work to be balanced in that regard. But, uh, but I think that it makes me a more present, uh, partner and father for my kids.

• 1:42:11Speaker 01

  And that, um, because what you're hearing, what he's talking about, like the, the grounding and the focus and the direction that being a father gives you, it sounds like something that you, obviously something you can't access any other way.

• 1:42:26Rich Roll?

  Well, I think that, you know, this sort of stereotypical fear reaction of having kids, like, "Oh, my God, my life is gonna be over and I'm not gonna be able to do all these things that I like to do." I mean, certainly, you know, trajectories change when you have kids. It's just by the very nature of there being another human being in your life. You know that you're responsible for. Um, but, uh,

• 1:42:51Rich Roll?

  My experience has not been that anything has ended, you know, it's really just been enriched. And I think, again, it goes back to, you know, like the things that I liked to do before, I still do. And the things, and your interests change, things I used to be interested in doing or thought that I would miss. I don't miss anymore.

• 1:43:08Speaker 01

  And how is it, there's a lot of the times, and, and I had the opportunity, after, after I got divorced, I had the opportunity to go to live with a family, a friend of mine, she invited me to come live with her house. And I lived in the, in the back house and they had two kids and I got the opportunity to interact with a family that wasn't mine and kind of be around, like, as you say, like a cool uncle or whatever. These kids were six and eight and it redefined my relationship to motherhood because I'd never seen another family work. And I was like, oh, right, it can, it can be this way because I'm one of four boys. Mum raises alone from when I was 11, it was like Lord of the Flies in my house. It was insane, it was, it was awesome. Mum did a great job, but it was pretty.

• 1:43:53Rich Roll?

  Just boys running crazy, beating on each other.

• 1:43:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was that. Yeah, we went through a lot of holes in the walls. But, but a lot of people tend, and you see it often, people tend not to be able to, to break away from their, what they knew. It's like with eating, you know, they, this is what they learned about being in a family. So when they have their own kids, this is what they do and they just do it because their dad always did it. Did it, have you found yourself redefining your relationship with fatherhood and fathers being a father?

• 1:44:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah, definitely. And I, I have to attribute Julie with a lot of that kind of, um, sort of program busting. You know, I come from, I come from very loving parents who, who took care of me and provided all of my needs. And, and, you know, it was very kind of, um, upwardly mobile suburban, not, not like wealthy, but like, you know, we didn't have to worry about it. Uh, you know, my parents were able to send me to, you know, a really nice high school and, and all that kind of stuff and, and. It was very conventional and, and basically conservative. And Julie's kind of like, comes from a completely different life experience. Like she grew up, she's half Chilean. She grew up in Alaska.

• 1:45:03Rich Roll?

  She's the youngest and just ran wild over these glaciers. As you know, like she's got insane stories about when she's young and she has this ability to kind of see things differently than most people. And she has the courage and the backbone to say, I know everybody's doing it this way, but I'm, I'm going to do it this way. You know, and if you don't think I can, then just watch me, you know? And she's very strong and powerful in that way. And that challenges me because I'm like, wait a minute, you know? That's not how people do this. And we need to do it like this because I feel safe doing it this way.

• 1:45:35Speaker 01

  Like the food choices we were talking about before.

• 1:45:37Rich Roll?

  Exactly. And this, so, so I guess the best example of this is we've made this decision to homeschool our kids. Right? Which is a huge responsibility and one that, you know, not a day goes by where I don't go, am I doing the right thing? Is this in their best interest? Am I screwing them up or is this? And I watch like, you know, the kids develop and I see them achieving a level of maturity that I don't typically see in kids of that, that age. And I know I feel better and more secure about making this choice, but it is way out of my comfort zone. Julie is convinced that, you know, we're doing the best thing for them. But because of my upbringing, it's like, I don't know.

• 1:46:20Rich Roll?

  Like, you know, I'm used to, you know, I wore a coat and tie to high school every day.

• 1:46:24Speaker 01

  So did I. Yeah, I went to that kind of high school.

• 1:46:26Rich Roll?

  And so it's like, if we're not doing that, then like, what are we doing over here? Like this doesn't make sense to me. And it, and it makes me, but I think that you have to, you know, ask those hard questions and kind of challenge yourself to try new things if you want quantum growth. You know, if you just want to, if you want to be like everyone else and do what everyone else is doing. It's sort of like you get out of things what you put into them. Right? And great entrepreneurs, you know, people that have.

• 1:46:58Rich Roll?

  You know, changed our world have been people who have asked those hard questions and have boldly sort of said, I'm not going to do it that way. I'm going to do it this way. And maybe they've made enemies and made mistakes along the way, but they've had the kind of backbone to do something different. And I see that in Julie and it helps me look at my life and the choices that I'm making in a different way. And hopefully, you know, empowers me to do different things. And, you know, I think everybody needs to, you know, kind of question authority or question the status quo. You know, when you watch the news at night, like, well, what is behind that? Like, why are they telling me this story and not this other story?

• 1:47:39Speaker 01

  You discuss this with your kids when you watch the news with your kids?

• 1:47:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:47:43Speaker 01

  Awesome.

• 1:47:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:45Speaker 01

  I folks used to do that. My mom always did that as well. So that leads me on to my next question about, you know, you talk about having this, you just talked about having this, you know, this kind of reason for being with these kids in your life. And you introduce yourself often as a recovering attorney.

• 1:48:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:04Speaker 01

  So a lot of people would think, you what? You gave up being a lawyer? This, by society perceives, it's like, it's a bath tap that just drips water, drips money. Sorry, I should say it's a shower faucet that just spurts out money when you're a lawyer. So you've got four kids mouths to feed, yourself and your wife, and you're like, don't want to be a lawyer anymore. That is colossal. That's like more intense than going, I'm going to go do five Ironmans in five days. Like, it's such an enormous, enormous leap to do.

• 1:48:36Rich Roll?

  I think that when you want to do something with your life, if you have kind of one foot in and one foot out, then it's not going to happen. Or you are not giving it your all, right? And, you know, I made a decision when the book came out and started getting, you know, kind of the reaction that it was getting, I felt that I had a responsibility.

• 1:49:08Rich Roll?

  And it sounds weird, not like a calling, but like, you know, I, I felt compelled and I had the passion to try to take this message and spread it as best as I could, you know? I mean, the emails that I get from people, it's just, it's very moving and I, and I feel a responsibility as like a career of the message to, to, you know, kind of seed that garden and, and help it grow. You know what I mean? I think people, uh, there's a need for it and there's a sense of satisfaction that

• 1:49:50Rich Roll?

  comes with participating in this dialogue that I don't get, you know, from practicing law. And it's a hard, it was a hard wrought decision. Certainly I can go back to doing it, you know, should I need to, it's not like, it's not like I can't go back to being a lawyer. But I made the decision to not try to do both because I wanted to commit myself to this completely. And it hasn't been, you know, a bed of roses, you know, it's like, we got a late start today because on my way back, uh, my car broke down, you know what I mean? And right now, like, quite honestly, like, I don't have enough money for a new transmission.

• 1:50:32Rich Roll?

  And Julie just left to go call AAA and get it towed over to the gas station, you know, it's like, I'm watching every penny and, and, uh, we're making it work, but it's a warrior path, dude, you know? And it isn't, you know, I think an outsider can look at it and go, oh, well, you know, good for him, you know, he wrote a book, he goes around and do all this, must be nice. You know, it's like, it is freaking hard and I, and I'm working my ass off, you know, harder than I ever did as a lawyer to try to figure out how to systematize this in a way that I'm still being responsible to my family because that comes first. And then, and if that begins to suffer and I have to go back to practicing law, then

• 1:51:16Rich Roll?

  I will do that. That's fine. You know, that's my obligation as a responsible, fiscally responsible parent, um, but I'm really trying to give this a go.

• 1:51:24Speaker 01

  It seems that you've got this, this kind of skillset of the determination and, and

• 1:51:32Speaker 01

  You know, ability to, as we talked about earlier, overcome the automatic negative thought that you can apply to either running up a mountain, cycling across a lower field, or going, you know what, I'm going to take this path.

• 1:51:44Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:51:44Speaker 01

  And would you say there that it's a similar, it's endurance, but it's just, you know, it's using the same part of your brain?

• 1:51:52Rich Roll?

  Oh, yeah, there's no, yeah, there's no question about it. Like, people have been asking me, well, what's your next race? Or when are you going to race again? And I keep saying, well, I haven't signed up for anything. I just haven't found the thing that inspires me, you know, the way that I was inspired to, to, you know, take on this Ultraman challenge. But I think the truth is, is that all of that kind of verve and enthusiasm and passion is really directed now towards this message. Like, all of the energy that I put into training for Ultraman, like, that, that sort of super keen, you know, Compton Rom laser pointed at the cloud is like, is now directed at things like doing the podcast and going out and speaking to people and meeting people

• 1:52:34Rich Roll?

  and, you know, trying to help people improve their lives. Like, that's, that's my, that's my Ultraman.

• 1:52:41Speaker 01

  Even though, even though you said, you just, you know, and really, thank you for being so, so candid about talking about, you know, where you are in, in, in life at the moment. You know, there's somebody listening to this right now who's sitting in an office cubicle or working in a mobile phone store or something and just goes, bah.

• 1:52:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:58Speaker 01

  What would you say to them? That like, they've got a dream of doing something else. And even though you've made, now you've made that leap and now you're, you know, the net is there.

• 1:53:09Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:53:09Speaker 01

  But, you know.

• 1:53:10Rich Roll?

  So we, so what are you saying?

• 1:53:11Speaker 01

  So my question is, what would you say to, like, for example, for me, I'm, you know, I was at this point in Australia with my career and I'm like, you know what, I've got to go to America. That's, that's the next move. That's where it's going to be.

• 1:53:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:22Speaker 01

  And, and I committed and I'm here and the career momentum in Australia died down as it does. And I'm here and I'm working real hard to, to, to make stuff happen over here, but I can't do it any other way. I can't have a foot in those countries.

• 1:53:35Rich Roll?

  No, you can't. You can't be afraid to fail.

• 1:53:38Speaker 01

  So, but I've, you know, had the benefit of, you know, I've put money in the bank.

• 1:53:45Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:53:45Speaker 01

  Saved up.

• 1:53:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:53:46Speaker 01

  You know? What would you say to someone who's listening to this right now going, yeah, I would change jobs or I would move my career or I would do that because?

• 1:53:55Rich Roll?

  But I can't because of that. Yeah, no, I get it. I mean, I think that, you know, when I, when I was, you know, buckled over on the staircase and realized they needed to change my diet, that, you know, did I have a flash that I would be sitting here with Andrew G doing a podcast right now? He's like, you know, you can't predict the trajectory of your life because it is composed of tiny moments aggregated over time. So to somebody who feels stuck, you know, the way out is to just begin doing something, you know, whether it's, hey, go to the bookstore and buy The Artist's Way. And when you wake up in the morning, write three pages down. You know, that's a start. You know what I

• 1:54:38Rich Roll?

  mean? That's actually a massive thing to do, a massive change, you know, and, and over time, you start to string together tiny little seismic shifts like that. And you'll look back a year later, two years later, five years later, and your life will have taken on a completely different color and trajectory.

• 1:54:56Speaker 01

  And so in that point, on that path, the idea of deciding not to do law anymore was just another step on that path. Was it, or was it, it was obviously a bigger step, but you didn't just wake up and go, that's it, I'm not gonna do?

• 1:55:05Rich Roll?

  No, no, no. I mean, I've been trying to find a way out of practicing law for a very long time, but I tried to do it with one foot in and one foot out. Like, hey, I'm just gonna do a little bit. Or, you know, and then the phone would ring and I'd get sucked into doing some project because somebody was paying me. So, a lot of it has been about creating a foundation that made it possible for me to generate income from other sources, which I spent a lot of time creating that foundation before I turned the faucet off on the law. And then also, it's about healthy boundaries, too, and learning how to say no, you know. For me, it's, if somebody wanted to offer me a gig, even if it was working for horrible people, you know, I would say yes, because my self-worth was, it might

• 1:55:49Rich Roll?

  be the last gig anybody ever offers me, and I'm lucky to get it.

• 1:55:52Speaker 01

  Aldrich?

• 1:55:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, for me. So, there's an esteem issue built into that. And as you start to develop greater self-esteem by doing esteemable acts, you have an opportunity to create healthier boundaries around yourself. And, and a lot of times, that involves learning how to say no to opportunities that might seem attractive in a short-term way, but aren't actually serving your longer-term vision for what you, you want your life to be.

• 1:56:18Rich Roll?

  Right?

• 1:56:20Rich Roll?

  Come on, dude. You know all this stuff.

• 1:56:23Speaker 01

  Though it's heavy, though. It's good. It's good. It's good to hear. I mean, there's someone listening to this right now.

• 1:56:27Rich Roll?

  But listen, you know, I've had, you know, dark moments of the soul. Like, I didn't sleep very well last night, right? I was up. I was barely, barely slept last night because, you know, I was like, oh, my God, I gotta do this. And I gotta, how am I gonna make ends meet with this thing? And this other thing that I thought was gonna work out, I just found out, isn't working out. It's like, it's not all roses, man. It's like, you know, I am like busting my butt, and it's not always going, the brakes aren't always going my way. Like, I've had a rough couple days. So, like I said, it's the warrior's path. You have to stay in the game. You know what I mean? And you have to be, you have to believe in yourself, and you have to have faith in something outside of yourself, that this path that

• 1:57:06Rich Roll?

  you're on will lead you into a direction that is suited for you. But that only comes with doing the internal work. You know what I mean? You can't trust your instincts if you're not healthy on the inside, right? Because they're, what are those signals that are leading you? Are they healthy signals? Are they unhealthy signals? And, you know, your divining rod for making that determination better be well tuned.

• 1:57:34Speaker 01

  Sometimes the, you know, we think we've got the best idea about how something should go. And then we turn around and go like, well, this is the best that, the best that I could do. And it's got me to this point, which I'm not happy about. So, we actually get to a point where we start listening to other people's ideas, and then trusting them and doing what they say. So, I'm interested to know, who are the people around you that you turn to when you're having that dark night of the soul? Who do you turn to for guidance? And who, because people are listening to this going, here's this guy, Rich Roll, he did this, he eats this, he has this life, I want to be like him. So I'm going to take similar steps, because I want that in my life as well. But you're looking up as well. So who are you looking?

• 1:58:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, for sure, my, for sure, Julie, you know, I mean, she's, I check in with her, you know, daily, if not hourly, like, I'm feeling down today. This is what happened, you know, and she helps me talk through everything. So again, it goes back to having that. You know, healthy communication in your relationship where you know, you feel safe talking about vulnerable things. And then I have friends in recovery that I run my decisions by, you know what I mean? Like, I try not to make big decisions in isolation. You know, I'll run it by, you know, trusted people, people that I trust their judgment, and then I'll evaluate the reaction. And it's usually a pretty good indication of whether

• 1:58:53Rich Roll?

  I should or shouldn't do something. But again, you still have to take responsibility for that decision. And sometimes, you know, when I, when I first was like, hey, you know, I'm eating plant-based, and I think I'm going to try this crazy Ultraman race. What do you think? You know, it was like, I didn't get an overwhelming like slap on the back, like, go for it. We're proud of you. That's a, that sounds awesome. You know, the, the reaction was, yeah, no, that doesn't sound like a very grounded decision, Rich. Have you thought this through? Or like, how are you, you know, like, I don't know, you know, like, where is this coming from? You know, so that would have been in it, that would, that was an example of where I actually said, you know, this time I'm going to trust my instinct, because I feel, I feel driven in this direction for some reason, and it feels

• 1:59:36Rich Roll?

  right to me. And even though people I trust are kind of saying, well, I'm not so sure, Rich, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do what feels right to me. But I would say overwhelmingly, or the majority of the time, when I run my decisions by my peers, you know, I end up listening to them. But it's, it's incumbent upon you to make sure that you recruit the proper board of advisors.

• 2:00:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:00:00Rich Roll?

  Because otherwise, you fall prey to, you know, the whimsical, you know, ideas or advice of somebody who, you know, is not guiding you in the right direction. Right?

• 2:00:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. So you've mentioned Julie quite a bit. She sounds like, and I don't know if this is such a thing. But what would you say to women who are listening, or guys who would like to take this message to their wives or girlfriends, or, or girls who'd like to take this to their boyfriends or husbands, about the, the training widow, the, the partner doesn't, doesn't see their partner because they're off on a six or eight hour?

• 2:00:38Rich Roll?

  The triathlon widow, yeah.

• 2:00:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. What would you say to those people about what?

• 2:00:43Speaker 01

  You know, that training does for this person, or you know.

• 2:00:47Rich Roll?

  To the person who's the widow?

• 2:00:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, the one sitting at home going, I'd love to do something on my Saturday, but he's or she's off riding up a mountain today.

• 2:00:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's, that's a tough one.

• 2:00:55Speaker 01

  Cause it's, it's a, it's a big deal.

• 2:00:56Rich Roll?

  It's a real, it's a very real thing, you know, and I have friends on both sides of that equation.

• 2:01:06Rich Roll?

  I think it's, I think it depends on the, the, the specific dynamic of that relationship. You know what I mean? Is there, is their communication healthy or is it dysfunctional? You know, is it the kind of thing where the, the guy makes all the money and he says, screw you. I'm going to do what I want with my free time and you're going to, you're just, you're going to have to suck it up. Like, or is it, you know, where there's more parity in the relationship and there's more open communication? You know, I think it depends, but, but, uh,

• 2:01:34Rich Roll?

  you know, I think the person who's suffering needs to address the issue in a conscious way and in a non-threatening way. Saying, you know, cause I know what it feels, I love when I'm training, you know, like, but when I'm off training, I'm thinking, you know, what is the time that I'm missing with my kids? Like, I need to balance this correctly. What else can I cut out of my life so that this isn't interfering? And to be able to have that conversation with your partner and say, hey, listen, you know, it would be really great if you could be around more. You know, is there another way or there are other hours that we could do this? You know, maybe, um, instead of having your rest day on Monday, why don't you have it on Sunday? You know, we can enjoy the kids or let's set aside a specific day or two days.

• 2:02:17Rich Roll?

  Or this is the night that we always go on our date, you know, and that's sacrosanct. And this is the day that you do things with the kids. Or every Tuesday, you know, you take your son to baseball or whatever it is. And you set appointments and you, um, you put some time and effort into organizing the schedule and work with the person as opposed to come at them and say, you know, why are you doing this in a, in an aggressive way?

• 2:02:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, right. Um, and I, I guess the other, the other question, the other part of that I would like to, you know, ask, and I know that back when I was still living with, um, when I was still living with my wife, eh, the, the me and her before a run and after a run were two completely different things.

• 2:03:00Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 2:03:01Speaker 01

  Like when I came back from, if I'd, if I had missed my run, that was worse. If I'd missed my run.

• 2:03:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:06Speaker 01

  It's like, it was not a good day.

• 2:03:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:08Speaker 01

  For anyone.

• 2:03:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah. No, I say it all the time. Julie's like, would you please go running?

• 2:03:17Rich Roll?

  Like, I'll just be, I'll just embark on some absurd line of argument with her and she, she's just looking at me like, like, are you done yet? Like, okay, leave now, you know, come back when you, and it's amazing the difference, isn't it?

• 2:03:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, man. I have to, if I don't, if I don't run, I just go, do it. I just, yeah, I've gotta go. But I, I, I'm interested, like, you mentioned before, and I'm wondering if, if you want to cover it here, or if this is going to be in the next book, like, what I'd be really interested in, I'll tell you what, here's what I'd like you to put in the next book, please, Rich. Um, I'd like you to put in the running meditation technique that you talked about, and addressing that entire mental and psychological aspect of the endurance thing that you, you spoke of.

• 2:04:02Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 2:04:02Speaker 01

  Um, you touched on it, what we talked about, but I'd love you, for you to dive deep and kind of give that gift to people. Um, because you can tell them what to eat, you can tell them, you know, run this many intervals, that many splits, do this many cycles, this many rest days, but when you hit that wall, here's how to think your way around it.

• 2:04:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:19Speaker 01

  You know, that's, that's what I'd love to, I'd love to see from you.

• 2:04:22Rich Roll?

  Good, man. I'm glad to hear that, because that's kind of, you know, the direction that I'm thinking.

• 2:04:27Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 2:04:28Rich Roll?

  Well, I mean, I think.

• 2:04:30Speaker 01

  Because honestly, seeing where you run, seeing the mountains you run with, with, you know, with the hawks and the, we should, we should give you a, a First Nation name there. You really, you really deserve, you know. I can understand why you would get into that kind of transcended space. Dam or I run down on the Venice boardwalk. I don't quite know if I can.

• 2:04:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but I go down and run on the Venice. We talked about this. I go down and run on the Venice boardwalk, sometimes for very specific reasons, you know, that are related to being on the trail with the hawk. Like, I go down there so that I can run by all the people selling weed and the people in the bars and the drunks walking around and the kind of street urchin characters.

• 2:05:07Speaker 01

  Oh, my neighborhood.

• 2:05:08Rich Roll?

  That I love. No, and I love it. And I used to live down there, right? And, and I go down there to kind of check myself or, or get a read on my barometer. Like, if I'm running through there and I'm like, oh, that looks good. I could go into that bar at two in the afternoon right now. Well, then I go, all right, well, that's interesting. Like, I, I probably need to dial up my program right now.

• 2:05:29Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:05:29Rich Roll?

  Or I, or I do it as a gratitude check where I'm running through and I was like, I see somebody and I go, that guy looks exactly like what I used to look like. I can tell. I can see it a mile away. And it makes me feel like it, it makes me check in and, and get, and emotionally tap into like, the distance traveled, you know, because I, I have, you know, sometimes I forget, like, oh, yeah, you know, a couple, if a couple of things had been different, like, I could be that guy in that bar, you know, and I'm not, and I forget that. And so that's, to me, just as powerful as being alone on a trail, you know, it's, it's like they say,

• 2:06:14Rich Roll?

  it's easy to be spiritual if you're, you know, a Tibetan monk sitting in a cave, right? It's a lot harder to be spiritual in the world, you know, with the stimuli and real life challenges and all of that. And so, you know, you gotta, you gotta take that with you wherever you go and vary that experience.

• 2:06:33Speaker 01

  So if you could write about how to get into that, that running meditation, that would be good. If you could write about how to get vegetables into children, people would be very, the way you described that, I found that really, really good. And the way, the mindset that you put around and involving them in, in that choice, because like, even just getting veggies into kids is a huge, right? Particularly when every time they turn on the television, it's like, eat this, it's covered in cheese and sugar.

• 2:06:58Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 2:06:59Speaker 01

  And salt.

• 2:07:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, that'd, that'd be really good for, for book two, which is How Far Away?

• 2:07:07Speaker 01

  It's a little ways away.

• 2:07:08Rich Roll?

  Well, you know, it's interesting.

• 2:07:09Speaker 01

  And some awesome thing about being about fatherhood. Something else in there about because you've got, I think you've got a lot to share with a lot of men. Like, we talked about this on the trail the other day. The role of men in society, it is you're not Don Draper. You don't come home, go to, you know, there's a triple finger Scotch waiting for you on the desk. You read the paper.

• 2:07:29Rich Roll?

  That could be good though.

• 2:07:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, you get handed a paper, you get left alone for 20 minutes. Dinner's hot on the table and you fall asleep in front of the TV before Carson comes on. Like, that is gone.

• 2:07:40Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 2:07:40Speaker 01

  And I see my, I see my elder brother, my eldest brother kind of struggle with it. My, he's, he's older than me and he's just got twin boys. And he's like, well, what do I, I'm, I'm, I'm supposed to go out and earn money. Yet I'm also supposed to share this responsibility of changing all these diapers. Nappies, we call them in my country.

• 2:07:59Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 2:08:00Speaker 01

  And preparing all these bottles, yet now I can't sleep because I'm up at three in the morning. I've got a client briefing at nine.

• 2:08:06Rich Roll?

  You know, there's a confusion of the gender roles. Like, it's, it's, it causes vertigo for men. Like, what are we supposed to do? Are we supposed to be the guy who's opening up the door and paying the check? Or are we, we supposed to be the metrosexual guy who's getting the chest waxed? And, you know, it's like, what do you, what is, you know what I mean?

• 2:08:22Speaker 01

  Really blonde hair.

• 2:08:23Rich Roll?

  But I think, uh,

• 2:08:26Rich Roll?

  yeah, there's a lot to mine there. I mean, I've been thinking like, you know, it's funny.

• 2:08:33Rich Roll?

  Somebody, I think it was my editor said to me, I was like, I'm thinking about it. I'm thinking about it, you know, what, what the next book is going to be. And he said, well, most authors only have one book in them. And I was like, that's great.

• 2:08:46Speaker 01

  No, man, but.

• 2:08:47Rich Roll?

  And I go, and I thought about that and I was like, because for a while I was like, well, what do I want to express? And I go, maybe I've already done it, you know, maybe that, maybe I don't have another book. But then I've been thinking about it. It's like, I told my story, I'm not telling my story again, but I think, you know, I look at.

• 2:09:04Rich Roll?

  All these diet books are sort of, you know,

• 2:09:08Rich Roll?

  motivational books or what have you. Well, specifically the diet books. And generally, they lay out a diet plan and then they're like, there you go. Here's all the reasons why you should do it and here's how you do it. Good luck. Have a nice life. And for me, that is, that's great and that's important. But that's sort of a cliffhanger, you know, it's sort of, well, all right, well, now what? You know what I mean? It's because my perspective is always that wellness or health is, should be perceived in a more holistic way where, where food and diet is certainly, you know, a huge critical factor in it. But, but if you're mentally and spiritually unfit or out of balance, then you know, you can eat kale all day long, but you could be a raving lunatic. Right? Or your life can be completely out of whack.

• 2:09:52Rich Roll?

  So how do we approach these other aspects? Or once you clean up your diet, you know, how do you channel that energy? Like we were talking about before, to be, you know, more fully expressed, grounded and happy in your life. And, and you have to kind of look at these other aspects and address them, whether it's, you know, fatherhood or, you know, this sort of meditation, meditative, you know, spiritual aspect of, you know, what you're doing in your life, whether you're an athlete or a business person or whatever it is. And kind of getting into that. And I think that's where like, you know, I think I was glad to hear you say that because I think I, you know, I do have something to offer to that discussion. You know, it was like, well, I'm going to write another plant-based diet book. You know, my beef with meat just came out.

• 2:10:35Rich Roll?

  It's number 10 on Amazon. It's like, what am I going to offer to that conversation? That hasn't already been articulated, like not much, you know, I can reiterate it. But I'm not interested in writing a book that's just, you know, just that, unless I'm bringing something new or interesting to the equation. So anyway, that's where I'm thinking, I have some ideas, but it's gestating.

• 2:10:55Speaker 01

  You've got a lot to, you've got a lot to offer a lot of people, man.

• 2:10:58Rich Roll?

  And, um, thank you.

• 2:11:00Speaker 01

  Well, you do, and you've, you've certainly, you're talking from your own experience. And you keep saying it in my, in my experience and your experiences. It's, you know, you live like no one I've ever seen. You have a really interesting life. Your, your youngest daughter addresses me as an equal.

• 2:11:15Speaker 01

  How old is she?

• 2:11:16Rich Roll?

  Five.

• 2:11:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I guess it reminds me of, because my parents did the same thing. My parents never talked to us in baby talk and they always, from when we were the youngest people, we would freak, freak grownups out by calling them by their first names and, you know, asking them about their name, one on one. And it's awesome, man. And you have a, you've got a lot to offer people. So I think you've got more than one book in you. I hope so.

• 2:11:37Rich Roll?

  Um.

• 2:11:38Speaker 01

  I don't think there's anything else I wanted to chat to you about.

• 2:11:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah, dude.

• 2:11:41Speaker 01

  You feel happy to feel like?

• 2:11:42Rich Roll?

  We've made it to the two hour mark, dude.

• 2:11:44Speaker 01

  Oh, really? Do you feel like we've covered everything? Is there anything else?

• 2:11:46Rich Roll?

  Dude, this has been awesome. Are you kidding? This is, yeah, really great, man. I appreciate you doing this.

• 2:11:51Speaker 01

  Okay. It is really, now, don't get me wrong.

• 2:11:53Rich Roll?

  I can see why they pay you the big bucks for this kind of thing.

• 2:11:55Speaker 01

  It, it's not often that I get to chat to someone for such a long time. It's sometimes three minutes, sometimes four, sometimes 10, rarely 20. But to get to chat someone for two hours.

• 2:12:07Rich Roll?

  Two hours, man.

• 2:12:08Speaker 01

  It, it's, it's, it's weird because I'm used to sprints.

• 2:12:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:12:12Speaker 01

  You know, so.

• 2:12:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:12:14Speaker 01

  It does feel a little strange.

• 2:12:15Rich Roll?

  This is the Ultraman of, uh.

• 2:12:18Speaker 01

  Um, but like I said, man, I'm really, I'm really grateful to have been a part of, of this and, and your journey and this experience.

• 2:12:25Rich Roll?

  No, man, it's good. We're gonna have to flip the switch and, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna interview you next time.

• 2:12:30Speaker 01

  Oh, give me, give me a couple of months. Let me conquer that mountain up the road.

• 2:12:33Rich Roll?

  Right. Well, we'll get out and we'll do, once you're, once you're in the thick of the, uh, the Bulldog training.

• 2:12:39Speaker 01

  The Ultra.

• 2:12:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, so Asher's committed to running the Bulldog 50K, which is a local 50 kilometer trail running race that is conducted in Malibu Creek State Park here in August. Um, and it's very challenging course. There's a lot of vertical.

• 2:12:56Speaker 01

  Eight thousand feet.

• 2:12:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I mean, there are, there are times on that, on that, on that trail where you feel like getting down on all fours and it's kind of like bouldering. So it's gonna be awesome dude, you're gonna do great.

• 2:13:07Speaker 01

  I'm looking forward to it. Hey, thanks again man, this is great.

• 2:13:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah, thank you man, I appreciate you doing it. Peace. Plants.