VAR Controversy Overshadows Manchester Derby

How did the officials get it so wrong with Erling Haaland’s winning goal? Should Phil Foden have been sent off? Where do we go with VAR from here? Gary, Alan and Micah also discuss the other big talking points from the weekend, including Arsenal’s resilient performance against Sunderland and how Hull continue to impress after exposing Chelsea’s weaknesses. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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• 1:25Speaker 04

  Hello, welcome to The Rest Is Football with Micah Richards, fresh from the studio, Alan Shearer, who's in his pants, would you believe? When we were setting up, he accidentally stood up and he's ready for bed, that boy. He's going straight in his pit after this.

• 1:41Speaker 05

  Is it a cold night, Gaz, or was it warm?

• 1:45Speaker 06

  Sorry, I had to see that, lads. Sorry, I had to see that.

• 1:51Speaker 04

  Well, it's been another fascinating weekend in this Premier League season. And I think we have to start with the Manchester Derby. You were at the game, Micah. But before we come to the Manchester Derby, I went to the Spurs game, which there wasn't a lot going on in that game, but I was looked after very well at Spurs. It was a fun afternoon. And do you know what I got? You know, I didn't get my legacy cap from England yet.

• 2:16Speaker 06

  All right.

• 2:17Speaker 04

  Hopefully I will get one at some point. I got my legacy number from Tottenham.

• 2:22Speaker 06

  Nice.

• 2:24Speaker 06

  They should have put you in the team. You'd do better than their forwards would now.

• 2:28Speaker 04

  Well, one or two people did actually mention that. The crossing wasn't very good from Spurs, but we'll come to them in due course. Wow. Good old VAR has burst back onto the scene.

• 2:42Speaker 06

  It was all going too well, what, two or three games in? It was, it was okay. It was, I think we were quite, I wouldn't say enjoying, but quite for how the referees were being allowed to referee a little bit more. And taking responsibility, but the biggest game up to now and it's spectacularly fielded. I mean, honestly, we've got VAR, PSR, SCR, thresholds. We've even got a fucking panel out voting on whether the VAR right or not. I mean, we're, it's like, come on.

• 3:18Speaker 05

  What have you got, RC as well? What's that ref's call?

• 3:21Speaker 06

  Now it's pro ref instead of it.

• 3:26Speaker 04

  Well, as you mentioned pro ref, the pro ref spokesperson has issued the following statement. Following the incident in the 60th minute of Sunday's Premier League fixture between Manchester United and Manchester City at Old Trafford, we can provide clarification regarding Erling Haaland's awarded goal. The on-field decision was offside against Erling Haaland. That was checked by VAR and he was found to be in an onside position. In the same attack, it was established that Enzo Fernandez did not play the ball and therefore that makes any offside offence subjective. However, they used your word, Micah. However, on this occasion, the VAR did not recognise the likely impact of his position and should have recommended an on-field review.

• 4:11Speaker 04

  Contact has been made with Manchester United this evening to acknowledge what we deem as an error of judgement. A review of the incident will take place.

• 4:22Speaker 05

  Well, first of all, before we go into it, at least they are taking accountability, which we do like to see, don't we?

• 4:29Speaker 04

  Yeah, of course.

• 4:30Speaker 05

  However, like you just said, however, like you just said, Gaz. I mean, right, I know the laws of the game and I ask you a lot about the laws of the game and all that sort of thing. And you have to have a basic knowledge of what's going on in football because we give our opinions and you want to be right in your opinions, but you want to say it with confidence. I'm not a referee. It's up against my team in Man City, United, going against my team. And even I know the position that he's in, Enzo Fernandez, of course it has an effect on one, the goalkeeper and two, Martinez. And I saw that after about 30 seconds. I saw that, I think, ooh.

• 5:14Speaker 05

  It was a bit dubious, offside with Haaland. It was Dogu's foot, wasn't it? And I was thinking, ooh, is he going to be onside? It looks very tight. So I understand that and you want to get it right. And they've stopped putting the lines on, on the field, especially on the screen now. So it's again, you're thinking, oh, is it or isn't? And by the end of it, come to the conclusion that he's probably offside. And then when he said he was onside, but I said, oh, it's going to get ruled out now because Enzo Fernandez is, is trying to attempt to play the ball. And for them not to see that, it's just, it's, it's getting to the level now where it's pathetic. It's absolutely pathetic. And United didn't deserve to win the game, but you don't want to see results being won

• 5:58Speaker 05

  by decisions like that, especially when it's took two to three minutes to look at also.

• 6:04Speaker 04

  Obviously, the first thing you do is like you said, you look to see if Haaland was actually off or not. And he looked off, but you, you couldn't tell. And there was a dangly foot, as you like to put it, from Dogu. But he ticks every box of the laws on, on that particular occasion. I mean, he was definitely attempting to play the ball. He was, he was a diving header. He only missed it by a couple few inches. At the same time, he's standing in such an obvious offside position that has to make a difference to how Martinez defends anyway. Because he knows he's offside, so he's not going to drop at all. So that's two points. And then it has to have an impact on the play, even when he misses the header because Martinez is trying to get back and the goalkeeper doesn't know whether to go out.

• 6:47Speaker 04

  I mean, they've admitted their error and everyone makes mistakes, but when you've got that much time to look at something, it was almost as though they didn't understand the law or they hadn't thought about it. But they did because they showed so many replays of it. They were obviously looking to see if they thought he had any kind of impact on the play. So yeah, it was, it was a howler.

• 7:09Speaker 06

  I mean, clearly you've got a footballer trying to attack the ball in the middle of the goal. How can anyone say that he's not affecting the play or the defender? I mean, clearly even his position tells you he, he has to be affecting the play.

• 7:25Speaker 05

  Let me talk about it from a defender's point of view, please, guys. Because we always talk about strikers and when you're trying to hold the line or when you're trying to be in sync with the rest of the defenders, you work on certain things, when to push out and when to drop off. And if someone's offside, you're actually trying to catch them offside. So when the ball comes in, everything that happens after that is affected by where we take our line and whether we attempt to play the ball as a defender. So to try to say that Enzo Fernandez didn't affect the play by attempting to go for the ball, it's just, it's nonsense.

• 8:09Speaker 05

  It's like ABC 123 School of the Law of Football, you know? For them to get that so wrong, I just, I just couldn't believe it.

• 8:18Speaker 06

  In the biggest game in front, when it's going all around the world for them to get that wrong is a, is a howler.

• 8:24Speaker 04

  They've had this high bar and this wasn't a case of whether it was onside or offside because obviously Haaland was onside in that sense. But this is more about obviously subjective view and therefore they've had this high bar all season. And the first time that they've obviously changed a decision and it was, it was so obviously wrong. It didn't make any sense. Now, obviously we saw the Foden Bruno Fernandez. Let's move on to, to Phil Foden's red card. I take the position that if you give Foden a red card, you've got to give Bruno a red card as well because, I mean, Bruno fouled him and then kicked him deliberately in the back.

• 9:05Speaker 04

  Foden shouldn't have responded, but he did by kicking him obviously in the stomach. Bruno goes down screaming and I thought he made his decision very quickly. He probably didn't see the Fernandez kicking to the back, I would imagine, because I don't see how one is different to the other. So for me, I think a yellow card each would have done, but I think you've got to give them both the same. Whether it's a red, whether it's nothing at all or it's a yellow, they've both got to be treated in the same way because the offence is identical. In fact, you could say Fernandez is worse because he initiated it.

• 9:47Speaker 06

  Yeah, I, I agree with what you said, Micah. If Phil Foden goes down screaming and pretending to be in agony and pain, then clearly there's no doubt for me that Bruno Fernandez would have been sent off as well. His reaction has more than helped get Phil Foden sent off. And I agree, it's either two reds or two yellows. It shouldn't have been red for, I know, I know he's kicked out and that deserves it, but then if he's getting it, Bruno Fernandez should have got the red card too. Definitely agree with you.

• 10:14Speaker 05

  But why, why don't they just send the ref, who was Michael Oliver, wasn't it? Why didn't they just send Michael Oliver to the screen? And just to have a look at, you know, there's going to be tension in a, in a derby for, for one. And we shouldn't ref games differently just because it's a derby. But you have to have a feel for the game, a understanding of the game. And the VAR could have told him, look, there's a couple of things that have happened that have led up to Phil Foden kicking out. So I want you to just go to the screen and have another look at it, you know? And I don't think they're helping each other out. He's, okay, they want to stand by the ref decision and they want the game to, to flow more freely.

• 10:59Speaker 05

  And we, we totally understand that. But Foden's not going to kick out for no reason. So I totally agree with you guys. I agree with you, Al. It's rather yellow for both, red for both, or, you know, let, let's, let's play on. Give, give both players a talking to and, and move on. We know Phil Foden shouldn't be kicking out. It made the referee's decision for him because of the reaction of Bruno Fernandes. If Foden would have reacted like that, like Alan said, then Fernandez potentially would have been given a, a red card. But when you look at Fernandez and the brilliant player that he is, this is a part of the game that it's embarrassing to see. He doesn't need to do that.

• 11:42Speaker 05

  He doesn't need to resort to that level of shit-houseery because he's better than that. And when that happened, it just sort of killed the game a little bit. I feel it had a negative effect in Man United's favour, to be honest.

• 11:56Speaker 04

  Yeah, they actually started the game pretty well.

• 11:59Speaker 06

  I was going to say that after all the talk of the decisions and how bad they were or whether you, whatever, we have to say how brilliant Man City were when they went down to 10 men.

• 12:08Speaker 04

  Some terrific performances. I thought Elliot Anderson was, was outstanding. He was absolutely everywhere. You've been, well, I would say only slightly critical of him, Mike, because he sometimes jumps too soon. I thought by and large today, he got it right, didn't he?

• 12:25Speaker 05

  Yeah, but the formation was a little bit different. He was sort of the pivot, wasn't he, today, rather than two normally had him and Enzo? And then the timing of when he jumped wasn't quite working out. I, I thought he's got so much energy, but I thought his discipline today was brilliant. I actually think the sending off actually helped Man City in a way because there was a lot more disciplined as a group when there was defending. And then he was only jumping at the right time. So I think it helped him. I thought Enzo played well. He was trying to crash the box at the right times. But I just thought with Man City to do that to United and United with an extra man,

• 13:09Speaker 05

  I, I, I just thought they was poor. And I've always sort of, I won't say protected Man United. Me and Al have gone back and forth time and time again. I can see improvement in Man United. City have, have 10 men and, and United just don't know how to play through spaces, no rotations. Every time Man City were in that stable block, they had no ideas whatsoever. All they was looking for is a counter attack. All the shots that I had were pretty much outside the box until Embomo had that, which looked potentially to be offside.

• 13:42Speaker 04

  What a save.

• 13:43Speaker 05

  It was, it was a great save from Donnarumma. But I thought Man City, and I, and I said after the, um, the game midweek in Champions League.

• 13:51Speaker 06

  Porto.

• 13:52Speaker 05

  Guardi played really, really well. It looked disciplined, but actually Anderson showed that he, he can be disciplined and he shouldn't just do it. When United had the extra man, he should do that going forward because he was outstanding. He really was.

• 14:06Speaker 04

  Would you worry a bit about Manchester United, the fact that they, well, apart from that, and Bumo chance. They hit the post a couple of times, Rashford free kick, I remember, long, great effort. And, um, and Cobby Main who hit a really good effort as well. And I thought Cobby Main who did some nice stuff, but up top though, you know, they look like they're lacking. I mean, they've got Sesko on the bench. He is, it's, it's odd. I mean, he comes on and he has scored in games, but you, you wonder why he's not getting a starting place. Obviously they've got, you know, Cunha, like he's, he's more of a 10, isn't he, than, than a nine? And Bumo plays mostly off the right. Obviously Rashford was, is on the left. So, um, it, it's so, you kept looking at it, you think, man, you get someone up top. Are you going to bring the big man on? And then he did come on, but a bit late.

• 14:50Speaker 06

  You could have given him more time, Sesko. I was saying he has to bring him on and I thought you could have brought him on at least 10 minutes earlier than he, than he actually did.

• 14:58Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 14:59Speaker 06

  But there's talk, isn't there, where they've strengthened the forwards and they've strengthened the midfield, but they didn't strengthen defensively. Uh, I'm, I'm, I'm not 100% certain that, that great up top anyway. I think they're all right. They're decent, but when you compare them to a lot of the big teams.

• 15:14Speaker 04

  I look at all the teams at the top at the moment and you look at the squads. And I think Manchester United squad is that of a fourth, fifth place finish. And I think generally it is about players ultimately. If you look at Arsenal squad, way stronger. If you look at City squad, way stronger. And even Chelsea squad, I would say, particularly in forward positions is stronger. And I think I'm drifting off a little bit here, but I was at the Spurs game yesterday and that already the start, there's a few grumblings. And you think at some stage, someone like Spurs or even Manchester United, they've got to go, this is our guy. We've got to go, look long term. We've got to have some kind of patience.

• 15:56Speaker 04

  If you look at the teams that have been relatively successful, it's generally the teams that stick with the manager. The most obvious example of that is Arteta. There was lots of times during the early years that he was, you know, loads of pressure from the fans, but, but the club resisted. And I think they've benefited from that because I think, you know, most coaches, there, there are a few that are unbelievably exceptional, the likes of Pep Guardiola. But by and large, they're all pretty good, you know? They know what they're doing, um, but they're always the people that, that get the blame. But ultimately it's, I think it's about the players you've got in your squad.

• 16:31Speaker 06

  For what he did last season and getting Man United into the Champions League, I don't think they've, they've backed him anywhere near enough. Michael Carrick to, to where they, to where they want, to where they want to go.

• 16:39Speaker 04

  Which is sort of my point.

• 16:40Speaker 06

  Yeah. I know they invested a lot in Sesko in terms of being a centre forward, but clearly they don't feel as if he's good enough to start games. Otherwise he would be.

• 16:49Speaker 05

  But don't you think there's a, there's a bigger problem with Man United in terms of their, their style of play? And I mentioned in the week against Sabah, when United played Sabah and they had to be in the sentancy and they had to control the game. There was holes all over the place. I think them going into the game today, they had a specific plan of what they wanted to do. There was being a little bit higher, there was trying to be a bit more aggressive. But ultimately how they was going to score a goal was try on that counter attack. As soon as Man City went down to, to 10 men and then Man United had to try pick through, they just couldn't do it. I think that's the next step for them now.

• 17:32Speaker 05

  I think they're, if you look at the system, how they set up, Embomo very good on transition. Rashford's very good on transition. Cunha likes to get in pockets as well. Fernandez likes to operate in spaces where he can get on the ball and then play the ball forward quickly. But when they haven't got that, what else do they bring to the table? And that's what you're thinking now, that's the next step for, for, for Carrick, I would say.

• 17:59Speaker 04

  Let's move on to Arsenal, very impressive start to the season. It was a very old fashioned kind of game, wasn't it? It's like lots of corners and rough stuff and long balls from, you know, Sunderland and Arsenal can obviously defend themselves in, in that way. I mean, they do look particularly strong. That was a tough, physical game. They've got a big squad. They've started the season in, in top form. They really do look the real deal again this season, particularly probably more so probably, probably now that they've got that title under their belts.

• 18:30Speaker 06

  Yeah. And what, who they've added to their, to their squad. I mean, when you're bringing Bruno Guimaraes on, when you're signing Konzer, who looks already solid, made a great start to life at, at Arsenal. Yeah, they, they can, they can do, they can do everything very well. And as you say, if you want to play aggressive, if you want to play long balls, you want to play set pieces, fine. They can handle that. They can have a fight with you, can scrap. They're as good as anyone at doing that. They're tough. But also when you have to play, they're, they, they can play as well. So, um, they're, they're looking incredibly strong at Arsenal. Yeah.

• 19:07Speaker 05

  I thought Sunderland were outstanding.

• 19:09Speaker 04

  Yeah, I agree.

• 19:10Speaker 05

  The place was absolutely rocking. The sound coming out of the stadium was, was, was not normal. All they needed was that finishing touch. Ray got man of the match in that game, didn't he? Because he was outstanding again. They can play in so many different ways and they have the squad to compete with whatever the game demands. I think that's the, the most important thing with Arsenal. And yes, on another day, Sunderland could have got a couple, but Ray is safe for, for the penalty.

• 19:39Speaker 04

  The penalty save, that's probably the best penalty save I've ever seen.

• 19:42Speaker 05

  It's just big moments, isn't it? You know, when you need your player to come up trumps, it's just, yeah.

• 19:48Speaker 06

  I didn't think it was a penalty, by the way.

• 19:50Speaker 04

  No.

• 19:50Speaker 06

  I didn't think that was a penalty. I know the ref give it, but when he said, oh, he's clearly pulling him and he's not looking at the ball. Well, Konzer got pulled off Dan Bollard, but yeah, it was a great save, superb save. And what, what, what about Bruno Guimaraes scoring the goal? Getting battered off the Sunderland fans and coming on and scoring.

• 20:09Speaker 05

  What was that celebration? He was doing like that. Do you know anything what he was like doing?

• 20:13Speaker 04

  That's what Alan looks like in his pants, that's what he.

• 20:22Speaker 06

  You just felt it when they were hammering him and booing him and what have you, they're thinking, he has got the quality to do something to you here, he has got the quality to damage you. It's when the player gets their last laugh, it yeah, it must hurt them.

• 20:35Speaker 04

  Yeah. Interesting you mention the atmosphere at the stadium there, Micah. Do you think that's probably the best atmosphere at any stadium in the North East?

• 20:43Speaker 06

  No, come on, let's not go there.

• 20:46Speaker 05

  I love the Geordies, so I'll answer that one.

• 20:49Speaker 06

  Micah was at St James' when PSG came along.

• 20:53Speaker 05

  Oh, that was brilliant. That was loud. That was entertaining. That was really good. I have to give that to the Geordie.

• 21:00Speaker 04

  Ben White's been playing well this season, but obviously now Jürgen Timbers coming in as well. I mean, the strength in depth they've got in pretty much every position, I would say barring a nine. I think they're, I mean, Timbers is such a good player. I mean, Ben White's also been brilliant this season and he can play in opposite different positions across the back.

• 21:23Speaker 06

  You've got Miles Lewis-Skelly coming off, I think, and then you've got Bruno Guimarães coming on. You've got Rice coming off. I think Zubimendi's coming on. You've got Ben White coming off and Timbers coming on. I mean, it's incredible, isn't it?

• 21:37Speaker 05

  You've got Eze, Eze coming on for Zolles. You've got Moreno coming on for Odegaard, just a World Cup winner. It's ridiculous. It's ridiculous.

• 21:48Speaker 06

  Strong, very, very strong.

• 21:50Speaker 04

  I think, looking at it realistically now, even though I put Chelsea second, I think City are the only team that could probably challenge, if anyone can challenge at all.

• 22:00Speaker 05

  The way Man City have sorted out the midfield, I want to say problem in the first three games, I would say City wasn't playing that well. And then you go to the game against Porto, Wadi goes midfield. And then the performance from Anderson and Gay against, you know, 11 men at Old Trafford. Now you're starting to think, okay, maybe they're going to be better than everyone. We always say with the new manager and new players, it's going to take time.

• 22:26Speaker 04

  Yeah, they've won every game.

• 22:28Speaker 05

  They look really good. I think it was that Community Shield game when everyone was saying Arsenal are going to walk it. But I won't be writing off Man City just yet.

• 22:37Speaker 04

  No, no, they've won every game since that, I should say. Onto Chelsea. I mean, we should obviously shout out Hull again. I mean, still unbeaten, four games in, finally conceded a goal, but they're doing tremendously well at the moment. I mean, incredible start from Hull. But in terms of Chelsea, obviously same old a little bit, that they looked really good going forward mostly, but vulnerable defensively. But he did change his system, Mike. I wanted to ask you about what you thought of that. He went, you know, because he's been playing the Xabi Alonso way with three, you know, two wing backs bombing on forward and leaving the three up top. Obviously changed to four at the back. I don't know whether that was because it was against one of the promoted teams and he thought,

• 23:20Speaker 04

  well, I don't really want three central defenders, so he changed. But I don't think it really worked. Were you surprised?

• 23:28Speaker 05

  No, I wasn't surprised because Xabi Alonso is flexible, isn't he? So I wasn't surprised and you've got to pick a team depending on which opponents you play. The one thing I haven't noticed with Chelsea, they've become very easy to play against. And no matter what system, whether it's three or whether it's a four, they're not doing the hard yards. You know, they're thinking, okay, because we've got them three up top, we don't need to concentrate. The goals that they conceded against Hull, from a defender's point of view, it was quite embarrassing letting the ball bounce, not getting tight, not being aggressive. And if you look at Chelsea over the years, especially my history, watching Chelsea,

• 24:10Speaker 05

  they've always had like a good, solid defence. Yeah, it's a new look Chelsea. And we can talk about formations all you want. I think it was more to do with individual errors and switching off. And you've got to give tremendous respect to Hull for what they did in the game. But Chelsea, whether they're playing three or four, I think it's more psychological. They're not doing the hard yards and conceding two every game. It's not good enough, is it?

• 24:38Speaker 06

  Hull should have won it with the chances they had. I mean, they had a chance to make it 3-1.

• 24:42Speaker 05

  At the end, yeah.

• 24:43Speaker 06

  So they, I mean, I know that before the game they would snap your hands off for a draw, but they should have won it actually with the chances that they had.

• 24:50Speaker 04

  They could conceivably have won every game they've played.

• 24:52Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 24:53Speaker 04

  One or two chances that they've missed along the way. But, I mean, fabulous start for them. And I suppose, you know, if you take the three, let's talk about, we can all wrap them into one here. The three promoted clubs, Hull, Ipswich and Coventry. Obviously Coventry have had the toughest start. But Ipswich now have got two wins. They won at Palace. I worry for Palace a little bit, as we said at the start of the season. So, but I don't think any of us really envisaged Hull as being the leading contenders of those three that were promoted. I mean, it's a staggering effort. I mean, it's early, very early, but it did offer help when you got a few points and a bit of confidence.

• 25:32Speaker 06

  I think that's been the difference. I mean, the way Hull started and then the way Coventry started. And even Ipswich, Ipswich got their win first day of the season, didn't they? Remember the rightly, they beat Sunderland. So Coventry, oh, Coventry were really poor, just can't find a goal, looked really poor up front, really poor.

• 25:51Speaker 04

  I mean, they had so many chances in the first half. The game could have been completely different. I mean, I know it's when it looks like 5-0, but obviously they had so many chances in that first half and they missed them. Then they go behind and then they got another chance and then they concede another goal, they get two down. Then they're down to 10 men. It's all run a bit. I feel for Frank at the moment, he's got to turn it around somehow. They need to grind out a couple of results somehow to get their confidence. But let's take a break and discuss one or two of the other games when we come back.

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• 28:05Speaker 04

  Welcome back to The Rest Is Football with Alan Shearer, Micah Richardson and me, Gary Lineker. Brighton have had a really impressive start to the season. Some of the stats that they've got, I mean, they're topping, I think, like XG. There you go, Micah, a bit of XG.

• 28:20Speaker 06

  XG, lovely.

• 28:21Speaker 04

  Few stats there. Even before their 5-0 victory in the game at Coventry. Goals, they'd scored eight, which was first. They've now got 13. I imagine they're very much first. Expected goals, 7.4, first. Set piece goals, four, first. Big chances, 15, first. Open play crosses, 67 now. 67 crosses, that's what we love, first. Possession won in the final third 19 times, first. Possession, 71%, first. And all those, I would imagine, would have been proved in today's performance, so.

• 28:59Speaker 06

  Good start for them, eh?

• 29:00Speaker 04

  Are they a dark horse for a, I don't know, European champion? Well, they're already in Europe, but Champions League spot if they can keep going. I mean, they've got a lot of injuries as well, you know. They've got quite a big injury list. They've got Svadov out, Hinchallwood out, Evan Ferguson out, Matoma, Bifa, Minte, Aziz and Ruta all missing.

• 29:20Speaker 05

  I mean, the manager's just outstanding, isn't he? We can talk about scouting and getting players in, but the manager's got to get his message across. De Kuyper, I just think he's, oh, he's a level above. He's so good on the ball, when he's driving forward, the decision making.

• 29:40Speaker 05

  I really like the, you remember the fullback, Kadioglu as well, Turkish? And I talked about him 18 months ago. For some reason, they've just managed to get it right. They play really good attacking football. They're not afraid to get on the ball. Brugge, really good goalkeeper as well. He's just got them playing terrific stuff. And then let's talk about the goal. Dunk.

• 30:06Speaker 06

  Dunk's goal. What a goal.

• 30:08Speaker 05

  God.

• 30:09Speaker 04

  Call it a slam dunk, but you can't get slam dunks in that range. They're close in, aren't they? So it doesn't really work, that pun.

• 30:16Speaker 05

  But you know who's pivotal in what they're trying to do at Brighton?

• 30:19Speaker 04

  Pascal.

• 30:20Speaker 05

  Bro. Pascal, yeah, you said it. Bringing him back is just, oh, the way he controls game, his set pieces. He's so calm on the ball, his experience, he knows the team. Yeah, they look like a real outfit.

• 30:36Speaker 04

  I'll tell you, I liked, Micah, Yalcouye.

• 30:40Speaker 05

  Yalcouye, yes. He's only young, isn't he?

• 30:43Speaker 04

  I mean, they do find them, don't they? Their recruitment is extraordinary.

• 30:47Speaker 05

  How did they do it? I don't understand how they do it. There's one thing recruiting though, Gaz and Al, but then there's getting them into the team and then performing at the level which the Premier League requires. Because when you have this data, it's a risk at the end of the day, isn't it? But then for them to do it consistently, I just think it's brilliant.

• 31:06Speaker 04

  They're counter pressing. There's another buzz.

• 31:09Speaker 06

  Oh, my God. Hang on, we've gone XG transitions and now counter press. Have a look at yourself in the mirror, will you?

• 31:17Speaker 04

  I am, but do you know what? I'm just trying to make Micah happy because I know he loves all this jargon.

• 31:23Speaker 05

  I love it. I love it.

• 31:25Speaker 06

  Counter pressing.

• 31:29Speaker 04

  Do you know why I said that? Because Hertzler told me how important that was.

• 31:33Speaker 05

  Hey, what about the latest one though? Rest defence.

• 31:38Speaker 04

  What? What's this?

• 31:40Speaker 05

  Rest defence. You don't know rest defence?

• 31:42Speaker 04

  Is that if a defender makes a mistake, they get arrested? What do you mean rest defence? What does that mean?

• 31:48Speaker 05

  So is it like your team's attacking?

• 31:50Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 31:51Speaker 05

  And then your position of your defenders or your midfielders, that's called a rest defence?

• 31:57Speaker 04

  So basically you mean when the ball's up the other end of the pitch?

• 32:00Speaker 05

  Yeah, well, essentially, yeah, you could say that.

• 32:03Speaker 06

  Back in your day, guys, it was stay alert, be ready for it.

• 32:09Speaker 04

  I mean, honestly, you've got to have a phrase for everything now, haven't you?

• 32:14Speaker 05

  Oh, I love it. I love it.

• 32:15Speaker 04

  Whatever the phrase is, oh, Brighton are doing it very well indeed.

• 32:19Speaker 06

  They are.

• 32:19Speaker 04

  Let's lump these two in one because they're two obviously big clubs that are both struggling. I went to the Spurs game, as I said, they drew at home to Everton. There's hardly a chance in the entire match. I think Everton had probably a couple of reasonable chances in the second half. I can't think of a really clear cut Spurs chance.

• 32:40Speaker 06

  Van Hecke had one, one off chance.

• 32:42Speaker 04

  Yes, he did. Yeah, he did have that Van Hecke one. Brennan Johnson had one as well where it was cut back and he blazed it high and wide and right. But Everton had a couple as well. But I mean, they haven't scored this season. You can see why they're struggling up top. Obviously, Solanke is back, but he didn't look particularly sharp. Yeah, he probably needs some games. Needs to stay fit, which is really important. Obviously, they've got still one or two injuries and players coming back from the game. And I would lump in here Aston Villa as well, who've obviously had a traumatic pre-season, losing a lot of their star players. They've got one or two come in, but losing at home to Forest will be of some concern.

• 33:27Speaker 04

  Which of those two, Spurs or Villa, do you think will fare better?

• 33:32Speaker 06

  There's no doubt that the pressure would be more on Spurs because of what they spent on some of the players and the huge sums I think they've spent over the top on.

• 33:44Speaker 06

  Yet with the style they've had and not scoring and being really poor. But I guess from a Villa point of view, it's perhaps understandable more because of what they've had to sell and the turnover of players. But yeah, what was the atmosphere like when you were there? Is it starting to get a bit edgy?

• 34:03Speaker 04

  There were a few boos at the end, Alan, but Bayern Munich during the game, not so much. They weren't, it wasn't an incredible atmosphere because, you know, sometimes the game's got to give you something for the fans, you know, get some real tackles in or whip a few balls in the box. But there was nothing for them to go at. And then obviously every now and again you'll go, you know, there'll be come on you Spurs or a bit and a little for a spell, but it's not constant. Everton fans are making more noise, but away fans generally do. I think their fans have not scored a single goal in four games. So you can understand why they're all a little bit hesitant. I don't think they were particularly hard on them.

• 34:44Speaker 04

  There were a few boos at the end. They've not lost, so, which is something. Everton were very good, very well organised defensively, difficult to beat. They've got some big lads at the back as well. So I was in the boardroom, I was talking to people and I think at some point though, even for the fact, you've got to be a little bit patient. You've bought in. They've finally done what I think the fans have wanted them to do for a long time. They're spent. They've not done that for a long time. They've given a huge amount of money during the summer. They've brought in the players. Give them a little bit of time and patience, which is not something that you get in football very often.

• 35:22Speaker 04

  But at some point Spurs have, they've got to pick a man and stick with him and build and just be patient.

• 35:33Speaker 04

  Easy to say, easy to say, but and you need to see something. But at the minute, the manager will now be under pressure. But what do you do? Well, if it doesn't work in the next couple of months, ease out and then what do you do? Someone else comes in and he buys a load of players or he influences their recruitment. They buy a load of players and then that goes wrong and you keep doing it. It's like a never ending cycle. At some point, you've got to do what Arsenal did and go, right, this is our man. And if it's Deserby, it's Deserby. If it's not, it's not. But at some point, football now, I mean, it's just mad how many coaches go. I think, also, this is a mad stat.

• 36:15Speaker 04

  I was told yesterday that Deserby is now the ninth longest standing manager.

• 36:20Speaker 06

  You have to give the fans something though. You have to give them something. And the manager has to give them upstairs watching something, the belief that. The money that they've spent and the players that he bent over backwards to get. They've got to show something sooner rather than later. Because at the minute, they're not. They're miles off it.

• 36:41Speaker 04

  They are. It's a worry, but I don't know what the answer is. I mean, for the first time, they've backed the manager. So now they need to follow that up, I would say. I think Deserby knows what he's doing. He's a good coach. I think he's not necessarily saying the right things. I think he talked about the players are not fit enough yet, but who's been in charge of that? Micah?

• 37:08Speaker 05

  Yeah, obviously, it's what we've four games in, the players are not going to be peak fitness right now. But I would agree with both of you in terms of the club does need a little bit of stability. Then you've got to start looking at the players then now, you know? Sabinho, who did all right in the game, for Mamouche, you want to see a little bit more from, like you said, with Solanke just coming back from injury. Fernandez did all right in spells. I think if you're looking at the positives from the game, they've got a clean sheet. But you want to see a little bit more. Madison came onto the pitch. We'll give him a little bit more confidence.

• 37:49Speaker 04

  The creativity they need.

• 37:51Speaker 05

  We can't keep saying the same thing all the time. This is where the players now have to take responsibility. They've been crying out for new signings. They've got them new signings now. Well, let's see what you've got.

• 38:02Speaker 06

  And Richarlison's an issue, isn't he? Because he's clearly not, he hasn't put him in the squad and he's still at the club. I saw him flash up on the screen. He was in the stadium.

• 38:10Speaker 04

  He was sitting on the bench next to Pedro Porro, who was injured.

• 38:13Speaker 06

  Yeah, I mean, that's a messy situation as well. You know, it's like when the player's there and the manager wants rid of him and he's got pals there and whatever. It can be a difficult situation that for the manager.

• 38:23Speaker 04

  Oliver Glasner's got a great record against Unai Emery and he had him again. Good win for Forest, you know, and Morgan Gibbs-White again, another assist. I mean, his record over the, since, well, this year basically, since the start of the year is pretty impressive. He's either scored or assisted in each of his last eight Premier League away appearances, six goals and four assists. Only Erling Haaland, Robin van Persie and Andrew Cole in the history of the Premier League have enjoyed better runs than that.

• 38:57Speaker 05

  Can I ask you something though? You guys are strikers. De Lap, who was at Man City early doors, really, really liked him. And then he goes to Ipswich, was amazing for what they needed. Then he goes to Chelsea and you think playing with better players, he would score more goals. And then he goes to Forest and he looks like a new player, completely different player. And he looks like a new lease life. He's not got that pressure on him. Yes, at bigger clubs, we know there's bigger pressure. We get that. But just in terms of the way he moves, you know?

• 39:35Speaker 04

  He was injured quite a lot in that season. I wonder whether he ever got to full fitness or whether it is a thing that he couldn't deal with the big club. He was out for quite a lot of the time with injury and never really got a proper run. He did play a lot of games without scoring though.

• 39:50Speaker 06

  Shouldn't have gone to Chelsea. It was a bad move for him.

• 39:54Speaker 04

  Do you think?

• 39:55Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 39:55Speaker 04

  It's hard to not go to a club like that.

• 39:57Speaker 06

  Financially, I guess it was great for him and what have you. But I think in terms of his football career, I'm not sure he was ready for that step up to that intensity, that size of club. He'd have been better off going to another club and he might have been getting that bigger move now rather than having to go back a bit.

• 40:16Speaker 05

  Yeah, I agree with that. Just lastly on Villa before we move on. I would give Villa the benefit of doubt as well, just because they played Champions League football. They got a good win, didn't they, against Bruges? And then we talked about Villa's squad and what they're going to do. And I think we all said with, you know, them balancing Champions League with the league, with all the players leaving. They do need a little bit of leeway.

• 40:41Speaker 04

  Oh, definitely. Liverpool, no goals again, home to Fulham. I thought Fulham did really well. Fulham had been struggling as well, hadn't they? They conceded a lot of goals and Liverpool didn't offer much again.

• 40:56Speaker 06

  Very flat, weren't they Liverpool? Didn't. Yeah, really, it was really strange, really flat performance. Can't have too many of them at Anfield in front of your own fans against Fulham.

• 41:07Speaker 04

  Yeah, you could make the excuse that they played in midweek, but then so did a lot of teams.

• 41:11Speaker 05

  It's very hard to put your finger on Liverpool.

• 41:14Speaker 04

  It is.

• 41:15Speaker 05

  I've sort of analysed them in midfield, I don't think the balance is right. And then they've been, how do you pronounce his name again? Araho?

• 41:24Speaker 04

  Araho.

• 41:25Speaker 05

  Araho. He's played right back in games or whatnot and then is Frimpon going to start in that? The people prefer Subozla in the right back position. There's just so many questions, you know? And the manager's trying to play it a certain way and you can see what he's trying to do. Press high and all those sort of things, but something at the moment is just not clicking. And it needs to be sorted sooner rather than later because when Liverpool are at home, you expect them to win.

• 41:53Speaker 04

  Is Florian Wirtz an issue?

• 41:54Speaker 06

  He's another one though, isn't he? I remember when he came in, Mike, you were, I mean, we're all, to be fair.

• 41:59Speaker 04

  Oh, he was so good at Liverpool.

• 42:00Speaker 06

  Unbelievable talent and he's going to be doing this and doing that. He hasn't quite, has he? You've just seen little tiny flashes of it, haven't you? Not enough, nowhere near enough.

• 42:09Speaker 05

  Trust me, this kid from a young age, I was expecting big things. He was doing, he was doing amazing. But yes, he was in Bundesliga, but he used to take games by the scruff of the neck. He used to be always on the ball. He'd be goals, he'd be assists. I think one season in All Comps, he got over 15. And yeah, for someone so small, you're looking at, well, his size is not really going to play a part. It was his brain, the way he wanted to play and always getting involved. But he's not been that Liverpool. So when he said it's a problem, yes, if he doesn't start performing, yes, it is becoming a problem because they've got so many players now in that forward area when everyone's going to be fit. He needs to give more now.

• 42:53Speaker 04

  I wonder if they're possibly better with Subozla in that kind of 10 role with McAllister and Gravenberg behind them.

• 43:00Speaker 05

  Yeah, I, I, I think it's definitely.

• 43:02Speaker 04

  Worth a try, I would have said.

• 43:02Speaker 05

  But that's the thing, when you have, and I mentioned on last week's pod. When you spend that much money, you've got to shoehorn them in. And then that's, that's the thing, Liverpool at the moment, Wirtz is a good player, is a clever player. But he's not affecting the game in terms of goals and assists and that's what he needs to start doing.

• 43:21Speaker 04

  They had three forwards worth over £100 million or whether they're worth it or not will remain to be seen. But they cost over £100 million each hour.

• 43:28Speaker 06

  Yeah, mad, isn't it? And then they put in that performance and that flat. Yeah, that's why I said you can't have too many of them, particularly at Anfield.

• 43:35Speaker 04

  Okay, let's call it a day there because Alan's going to run upstairs and we, please don't do it before we go off air, Alan. I don't, you can't shock the nation in that way. It's, you just wouldn't do. Right, that's it. Goodbye from me.

• 43:50Speaker 05

  Goodbye from me.

• 43:51Speaker 06

  Goodbye from me. Have a great week.

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