Is Mbappé Confident or Arrogant? Barcelona’s Perfect Start & Kane’s Ballon d’Or Bid

Gary is joined by Julien Laurens for a European football special. They begin in France, where PSG have made a poor start to their Ligue 1 campaign. Will they recover and run away with the title, or have they left the door open for the chasing pack? In Spain, Barcelona have made a perfect start to the season. But with José Mourinho’s Real Madrid side hunting them down, Kylian Mbappé and Jude Bellingham are already firing, can the Catalans stay ahead? In Germany, Harry Kane is among the goals again, but can Borussia Dortmund mount a serious Bundesliga challenge? Finally, Gary and Julien give their predictions on who will win the Champions League. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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• 1:26Speaker 03

  Hello and welcome to the Rest is Football. We've got a special edition for you today. We're going to look at European football, all around the big five leagues across Europe. To do that, we've got an expert with us. Julien Laurens joins us. Julien, nice to see you. I haven't seen you since New York. We were staying in the same hotel for the entirety of the World Cup and we kept bumping each other on the sunbed.

• 1:51Speaker 04

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:52Speaker 03

  Early in the morning.

• 1:53Speaker 04

  Early in the morning, you know, before the day of work. That was great. Good to see you. Thank you for having me on.

• 1:58Speaker 03

  Shall we start with France? Because that's obviously your home country. I think the current state of French football is pretty good, isn't it? I mean, the national team played very well. I mean, obviously Spain were brilliant against them. They had a good tournament and everyone thought they were going to win it. They didn't quite manage it. What was the feeling after the World Cup in France? In terms of the fans, et cetera?

• 2:19Speaker 04

  It was a bit mixed because, as you said, it was quite a good World Cup. They were very entertaining until that semi-final game where I think they didn't show up. And maybe they took for granted the fact that they could beat the Spanish team. And I think the star players from Olise to Mbappe and Dembele maybe didn't really carry the team like they should have. And after that, I think, as you know, in football, things move on very quickly. And already after, we said goodbye to Didier Deschamps, who had 14 great years with the national team, winning World Cup, reaching another final as well. And then we got all excited because Zidane was coming. And now he's announcing his first squad at the end of this week for his first game in the Nations League coming up in the next international break. And everybody's super excited, especially the players, especially that generation who

• 3:04Speaker 04

  grew up kind of watching Zidane and him being a bit of the idol, the Olises or the Mbappes. For them, Zidane is everything. So very quickly, I think they moved on from what was a disappointing semi-final for sure, into the next era now for French football with Zidane.

• 3:20Speaker 03

  I suspect I don't know. He would never say it, but I would imagine for someone like Zinedine Zidane, it might be better that they didn't win the World Cup on this occasion. Because to follow someone that's won it twice would have been hugely difficult and to lose a final as well.

• 3:35Speaker 04

  Absolutely. You're right. And you know what's interesting? I don't know, you might have that with people you played with. Because everybody thinks that Deschamps and Zidane are great friends, you know, and they're this and that. And they're not really. Deschamps for a long time felt that the shadow of Zidane kind of being overlooking the national team because we knew Zidane was just waiting for that job. He said no to every other thing since he left Real Madrid because that was his dream really. And I think Deschamps felt that pressure at times. So I think Deschamps wanted to win it, to make things maybe a bit more difficult for Zidane. But you're right, the fact that he didn't win it for Zidane is a much easier start, I think, than if he had to take over the world champions again and kind of keep that momentum going and that level of results really and demand.

• 4:19Speaker 04

  So it would be great regardless because it's Zidane, but I think it's a bit easier for him now.

• 4:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, and he was obviously a great player, but he's also got that managerial coaching pedigree from Real Madrid. And he's used to dealing with superstars. And there are plenty of those in your team.

• 4:35Speaker 04

  You know, we talked about it when we were on the sunbed in the hotel. But one of the things that could hurt France, and I think he did in the end, although the players don't really fully admit it, but I think it's that arrogance that we can have as French people, obviously, when you feel comfortable, when you feel on top, when you feel really strong, like they did going into that semi-final, that, like I said earlier, maybe took it for granted a little bit. And Zidane will have to cope with that and manage that, but it would be great. I think the players are so excited that he's coming over. It would be fantastic.

• 5:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'm sure they will be. In terms of the French league, Ligue 1, surprisingly poor start from PSG. They looked fine in the Champions League, of course. Does it matter? Will they win it anyway? Is there concern amongst the Paris PSG fans?

• 5:16Speaker 04

  Not yet. I think it's still a bit early. The feeling very much back home is that they will win it eventually. They're too good over 34 games not to go and win it. And yeah, maybe Monaco started really well with Philippe Luis or Lille with Davide Ancelotti started well as well. They can push them a little bit, maybe Lyon too. But still, it feels like PSG with their squad, with Luis Enrique, even with the Champions League and the expectation that they will go far in that competition as well, that they will be too strong over 34 games. Right now, after, you know, after the start of the season in four games, it's a bit different. But over the length of the season, really, they should be unstoppable at some point. So the feeling is still very much that, but it's good to have a start of the season where

• 5:58Speaker 04

  others, you know, are showing their credentials, showing what they can do, especially with new coaches. And for PSG, it's been a bit slow. Luis Enrique is still trying to figure out a few things, who is in best form physically, mentally and all that kind of stuff. But they will get there in the league. The Champions League staying obviously the priority anyway.

• 6:17Speaker 03

  Monaco, good start. Philippe Luis as well. How's he managed to get that start going? He seems a very talented coach.

• 6:24Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's right. I mean, Chelsea fans might remember him obviously playing for them. Mostly he's remembered for his time at Atletico Madrid, where I think he learned a lot from Diego Simeone, obviously, although his style is very different to what Cholo can do. We saw that at Flamengo in Brazil, where he won pretty much everything he could win, from the league to...

• 6:43Speaker 03

  And they did really well in the Club World Cup, didn't they? They impressed. Everyone started to talk about him, yeah.

• 6:48Speaker 04

  Exactly. And to be fair, I think it's great for Monaco that they got him. I was a bit surprised that there was not a bigger club before, even in England, that gave him a chance to come over to Europe after the great result he had at Flamengo. It's Monaco and they were very, they're happy with him. He's 41 years old, so he's still very young. And we will talk about Cesc Fabregas and Como later. It's a bit of a similar idea in terms of the intensity, the verticality within the game, but also that press. And there are not many teams suddenly in France who, in a physical league, that press as well as this Monaco team and the Philippe Luis. He's got young players, so he's perfect for that. Like the type of Lamín Camara, of course, that we talked a lot about this summer with his failed transfers to Chelsea.

• 7:29Speaker 04

  But when you've got young players with a lot of energy, really strong physically to cover a lot of ground, Philippe Luis and his philosophy, I think suits really well and fits really well.

• 7:39Speaker 03

  You mentioned Camara, that didn't happen. There's also the Ballon farce. Talk us through that. What on earth went on there?

• 7:46Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, I think Everton left a little bit late, to be fair, for a transfer of this kind of caliber. But when Ballon showed up at Finch Farm, at the training ground to do his medical, as you, you know, as you do in this kind of context, then they saw something on his knee that they were not too comfortable with, Everton, the medical staff. So by the time they exchanged with the Monaco medical staff, where they took another advice and opinion from another surgeon in Paris to have an idea of if this kind of injury to Ballon was a serious one or not. And if it was not, then they could make the deal. If it was too serious, I think they would have pulled out. But by the time all that kind of shenanigans happened, Monaco, who had to sell at least

• 8:27Speaker 04

  a player, it was better for them to balance their books to sell either Ballon or Camara. Then Monaco called Chelsea back because Chelsea had been quite insistent in the summer to get Lamín Camara over. And I think he would have been a wonderful signing for Chelsea and for Xabi Alonso. Monaco said to Chelsea, well, Ballon deal seems to be not happening to Everton, so we need to sell, what about we sell you Camara? So Chelsea were all great, exciting. We've wanted him for the whole summer. But then Everton turned around and said, actually, it's all good with Ballon. There's no problems now. We can make that deal. So Monaco were like, oh, sorry, Chelsea, Ballon is back on Everton, so Camara is not going to come to you, which is a bit naughty in a way, especially when you know that after that, Ballon felt that there was a lack of trust between him and Everton,

• 9:12Speaker 04

  that Everton flagged up with that kind of injury on the medical, didn't really go down well with him. He felt they didn't trust him when he said that his knee was okay. Not really sure if we know the exact truth on that. But it turned out that Ballon said no to Everton. Everton found themselves without Ballon. Monaco said no to Chelsea for Camara. And now they had Ballon saying no for him to go to Everton. So they ended up keeping both Ballon and Camara. Everton were not happy. Chelsea were really furious against Monaco for not letting the Camara deal happen. And that's where we are now. And I can see the frustration for Everton and Chelsea and Camara, to be honest, because he was not too happy not to be allowed to go to Chelsea because he really wanted to go there. And for Monaco, they will have to make that sale in January now.

• 9:56Speaker 03

  Yeah. Track in Liam Rosinha, obviously a young English coach. We saw him at Chelsea for a while. He'd previously been in the French league. He's had a pretty good start.

• 10:06Speaker 04

  Yeah, really good start from Paris FC. One of the surprising team, if you can call that a surprise, because they invested well in the summer. They were good last season too. They have one of the richest owners in the Arnaud family, who own Louis Vuitton and those kind of brands. So of course they have that kind of power. But Liam has done really well. And it's funny, Gary, because in France, a lot of fans, people still had the Liam Rosinha in mind of Strasbourg, who did really well there, more than the failure that he had at Chelsea, really. And I think so when he came back, people were quite excited because it's good, this is a promising young coach with really interesting ideas. And so far, it's worked really well for him.

• 10:47Speaker 03

  I want to talk about a player that's arrived in the Premier League, Mamadou Sangare, who's really impressed. I think a lot of us have seen that talent and I wonder why perhaps one of the big boys didn't go for him, with all due respect to Brentford of course.

• 11:05Speaker 04

  Yeah, absolutely. And you know what? Last season he was the best midfielder outside of the PSG midfielders, obviously, and the Vitinias and Neves and all the reasons that. The best in the league. It's so obvious to see, Gary, you could watch Lens just once, especially in the big games against PSG or Marseille, they won the cup, and you would notice him. It was inevitable that you would see the talent there and the potential even, because he's still a young player. He only arrived the summer before from Austria, so great finding from the Lens scouting network in a way. But it was easy. In all our Ligue 1 team of the season, he was there with pretty much the rest of the PSG team and that was it. So for a club like Liverpool, who I think crying out for a player like him, or even Chelsea,

• 11:49Speaker 04

  because they didn't get camera, it would have been great. So credit to Brentford, who by the way, not just for seeing how good he was, because again, it was quite easy to see, but because through the whole season, they were in contact, he knew how much they followed him through the whole season. So they did a lot of pre-groundwork, if you want, before the transfer, and they were very smart in the way they did that. And then, yeah, they paid a lot of money and he's the highest, obviously, signing ever, the most expensive player, but he's worth it. And he will leave at some point very soon, I think, for another 30-odd million to a much bigger club, because he's really that good.

• 12:27Speaker 03

  Do you think there's a sense perhaps in the Premier League and in English clubs that the big teams, they need to sign big names because that pleases the fans? They're not particularly excited by a player that we've heard of, obviously, in the game, but perhaps fans that are solely focused on Premier League football don't know. They want a big name.

• 12:50Speaker 04

  Yeah, there's a bit of that. Or at least that English Premier League fans or that club's fan would have seen that player in the Prem. And I always think there's a platform in between, let's say, a good Ligue 1 club like Lens and the top of the top in England like Arsenal, United, City, Chelsea, Liverpool, all of that. So, you know, any English club could have gone and get Sangare in Austria like Lens did. Why not? Or to get Kusanov like Lens did, you know, in Belarus. But yeah, I think they wait and see what that guy does in Ligue 1 and then probably at Brentford. And then even if that means spending 80 instead of 50 or instead of 20, then they will go and do that. It's the same for Bale

• 13:31Speaker 04

  Baez, the same for... We've got so many examples. And again, Premier League clubs have raided Ligue 1 this summer. They spent so much money in France because they like those players, because they know those players are good, but also because this is the ecosystem in a way. Smaller club like a Brentford, like a Crystal Palace, will get those kind of players. And then Premier League, bigger clubs will come and get those players from the mid-table Premier League clubs in a way for more money. And that's how also the Premier League goes through things, you know, and lives. So it is. I'm really interested to see the progress now from Sangare and how high it can go, because I really believe that sky is the limit.

• 14:09Speaker 03

  Obviously, most of the players have bought into the Premier League. There's huge amounts of money involved. We'll take France for a start. Do the league in France, do the fans in France, do the clubs think it's great that the Premier League takes all our players because obviously they give us loads of money? Or do they, is there a feeling in France that all our best players go, they all go to that fucking Premier League, it's so rich? Or is there a mix of the two? Where are we?

• 14:39Speaker 04

  It's a bit of both, you're right. Because the money is a necessity. We need Premier League clubs' money, really, for the league to survive. In France, we have really limited TV rights money, as you know, because we don't have a big Sky or TNT come in and spend all that money on our league in terms of TV deals. So the trading of players is what keeps those clubs healthy in a way. They can reinvest that money in the academies, so you produce more young players who then end up going to the Premier League and get that money. And so that's the cycle very much. But there's also obviously a bit of disappointment for those players now to stick around for a bit longer, especially the younger one. I would have loved Bouadie to stay, you know, another year or two at Lille. He's still

• 15:23Speaker 04

  only 18, have more of Champions League experience, play more for Morocco, for example, and all that kind of things. Maybe even win the league with Lille, because he's that good. But yeah, for him, he could not say no to a City, for example. Lille could not say no to 100 million euros from City for him. And they're already thinking about who could be the next Bouadie for them, whether he's one from their own academy like Bouadie was, or somebody that they can find somewhere in another lower league that they will give a platform to and then will end up in England in two years' time like Sangare, like Lens did with Sangare. So it's a bit of both. I think this summer was a bit different, Gary, because of the amount of money spent and the amount of players, like Fernando Espada

• 16:05Speaker 04

  or the last year, who left for the Premier League. And because I think you can produce and you can sign players from other leagues that you make good and then they go to the Premier League. But there's a time where there's so many leave at the same time that this is a big chunk of the level and the talent in your Ligue 1 that is not there anymore. And that will take a bit of time to be replaced by other players who can get to that level of a Barcola, Fernando Espada, Bouadie, or Sangare, all those kind of guys, before another chunk of them go back to England. So it's the way it is, to be fair. There's nothing else we can do, really, apart from keeping that level of producing talent from academies and still finding gems in other leagues that then the Premier League will come and take from us.

• 16:44Speaker 03

  How does France produce so many brilliant footballers? I mean, obviously, we've talked about the academy and how it works in France over the years. And I think everyone's tried to replicate that and have done. But blimey, you are a footballing factory.

• 16:58Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, it is. And it's great. And, you know, credit to coaches and to clubs who invest a lot of that money from players trading and transfer into the academies in terms of infrastructures, but also, you know, scouting, networking to get the best players from the Paris region, from the Lyon region, from everywhere, more local at times. But also, hey, why not going to get players from Paris where you've got a hotbed of talent, street footballers, because they're still very, very, very developed in France. Ryan Shekki, again, the other day, talked about how he grew up just playing football on the streets in his council estate and that was it. That makes different players. And I think that's part of the reason. When you invest so much time and also when you've been doing

• 17:41Speaker 04

  it for so many years, the savoir faire is there, really. And I think the French clubs are making sure that this doesn't go away, that savoir faire, which is really, really important. But there will be, there will be generations and cycles, Gary, where the level and the talent is not as strong as the recent one, of course. And then I think the league might be in a bit more of a trouble there, because if Premier League clubs can't come and get the best talent, because they're just not there for those two or three years of that generation or that cycle, then there won't be as much money and that could be a problem.

• 18:12Speaker 03

  Got a nice link into Spanish football. Let's do Kylian Mbappe to get us there. Continue on the French theme to a degree. Obviously, he's left PSG, they've won the Champions League twice since he went. I saw him commentating on it the other day. He said it doesn't bother him. He's always going to say that, I suppose. There's always rumours, whether he's happy, whether he's falling out with... I mean, he's such a superstar. What's the view in France on Kylian, particularly post-World Cup? I mean, I've got a lot of admiration for it, both on and off the pitch personally.

• 18:49Speaker 04

  I mean, the World Cup in a way, I think, didn't turn things around. But there were times where people in France were maybe not too convinced about the personality, especially because, as you know, as we've just said, he's very confident in his own ability. He knows he's a really, really good player, one of the best in the world. And I think he shows that. But the way he led this team at the World Cup as the captain, his first World Cup as a French captain, the 10 goals that he scored, obviously, in those games, okay, they came up short, but he was still very good. The 22 goals in 22 World Cup games so far in his career, which is an incredible record, that I'm not sure we'll ever get beaten. Kind of like the love that he had back home just kind of went through the roof

• 19:32Speaker 04

  again. But for example, where do you stand when you hear him saying like, yeah, I would vote for me for the Ballon d'Or. I think I deserve the Ballon d'Or. I think I'm the best player in the world by now. He was saying the other day in his L'Équipe interview, I'm the chosen one. You know, I was always the chosen one. You as a former player, how does that make you feel, a player talking like that about himself?

• 19:50Speaker 03

  I think there's a balance somewhere that you've got to find between confidence and arrogance. So there's somewhere in between there. And sometimes when players speak and you see the words written down or you see them said, sometimes players can do them with a little bit of jest. But also, I think, when you're that good, there must be a huge confidence. And he was brilliant in the World Cup. And I think he is a frontrunner for the Ballon d'Or. He has to be, as does Harry Kane, because the phenomenal year he's had in terms of scoring goals. You know, people point at Rodri. I think Rodri, outside

• 20:32Speaker 03

  of the World Cup, probably hasn't done enough to justify the Ballon d'Or, even though he obviously led Spain to success and he's won it before. Funnily enough, I still think the best player in the world this year was probably Lionel Messi. But he's won enough. He's won enough. But it does seem to be, I don't know whether you agree, but the Ballon d'Or has changed in the sense of, there used to be voting and everyone wanted to win it, but no one constantly talked about it. It's become this huge thing now. And it's almost like going into the Oscars, where you get actors talking in interviews and they're doing a lot. I've seen Harry Kane do more interviews in the last month than I've seen him do in 10 years.

• 21:17Speaker 03

  And you could, and it's all obviously to try and tempt the journalists and the coaches, the people who vote for the Ballon d'Or winner to vote for them. So even though Harry probably did it in a more modest way, he's doing the same thing. I don't have a problem with anyone saying, I think I deserve a Ballon d'Or. I think Mbappe must win one at some point in his career. But I don't know, who do you think will win? I think Harry Kane might.

• 21:42Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think he's the most open one we've had in recent years, maybe in history, really, to be fair. I think it would be very tight. I think there are some players like the PSG boys, for example, who might be victim a bit of the spreading of the votes because would you vote for Grealish, or for Dembele, or for Fabian Riz and those kind of guys? I think there's a bit of that for Harry too, with Mikel Olise, who had another incredible year, and maybe a bit of that. But I think it'll be tight. I think you're absolutely right in terms of the PR machine, that some of those clubs, Real Madrid are the master of it, obviously, and make sure that everywhere there's a discussion about Mbappe. And clearly, what PSG are not doing, or Bayern Munich to some extent too, is not pushing one of

• 22:24Speaker 04

  their players forward, because Real Madrid are clearly pushing Kylian forward, more than Vinicius, more than Bellingham, more than, I don't know, anybody else. It's clearly Mbappe. And I think they really want him to win. And the PR machine from Madrid is usually very, very strong in that matter. Yeah. So I think it'd be tight. I think, for me, I would love Grealish to win, Gary, simply because he was wonderful, especially in the Champions League. I know he didn't go to the World Cup, but for a Georgian winger to win the Ballon d'Or, I think he'd be very special and be unique in a way. And he's such a special player too. And that's why you go to watch football matches for players like him. But Kane and Mbappe have been so prolific in terms of goal scoring,

• 23:07Speaker 04

  everywhere, and the impact they had on their team on that level, that I think I wouldn't be surprised if he was, you know, one of them too. And I think Lamine Yamal has a great case. I think Rafinha has a good case too. Like we mentioned, Rodri, there's a few others as well. But yeah, I think Mbappe and Kane, probably the front runners.

• 23:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think so. How is he at Real Madrid at the moment? There's always rumours, you can never, it's hard to know. I mean, you're obviously a journalist and you kind of try and pick out what is actually true, what is not true. You know, is he happy in Madrid? Is he happy with Mourinho? Does he get on with Vinicius Junior? Or does he not get on with Vinicius Junior?

• 23:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's the more, the biggest question. He's happy. I know everybody has probably seen, but he's also found a Spanish girlfriend now. So as much as doing the front page of all the gossip magazines, and you know what, you've lived in Spain, you know that culture really well. I think that's also a part of his happiness. And he's happy. And Mourinho said to him on day one, that the team would be built around him. I think Jude is another big part of this team. And the relationship between Mbappe and Jude certainly is the key here, I think, for Mourinho in this team, as well as the balance of the team. And Vinicius seems the one that is a little bit behind right now. In terms of statistics, Vinicius has only scored one goal, when Kylian has six already in the league, Jude has three

• 24:34Speaker 04

  in the league. So, and that Bellingham, Mbappe kind of partnership, link up, still, it looks really, really strong so far for Mourinho this season. It's a Mourinho team, anything has happened. But why is new, Gary, is that they're conceding goals and chances. We saw that in the Champions League against Inter, we've seen that in the league. It's only one clean sheet in five games, but they're scoring, but they're right. There is four wins, they lost to Betis in a game that they should have won, they had plenty of chances. And Troy Parra, the Irish international, scored at the end after coming off the bench. So that's a bit of a bump in the road from Mourinho so far. But for the rest, he's been pretty positive since he's coming over and came back.

• 25:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, okay. Let's take a break there, Julian. And when we come back, I'll talk about Barcelona and one or two of the other leagues as well.

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• 26:41Speaker 03

  Welcome back to The Rest Is Football, a special international edition with Julien Laurent. Julien, we talked about Real Madrid before the break. Let's have a word on Barcelona. I think they've had a breathtaking start to the season. They've made one or two additions to their squad, most notably, of course, Rodri. I think they're going to take some beating this season. I don't know what you think.

• 27:09Speaker 04

  No, I agree. I mean, five wins in five in La Liga, pretty perfect. Okay. And it's against Levante and Valencia. And Chirac, who was the big game, I guess, was the one where Athletic Club de Bilbao, which they won 2-0, but in the other game, they scored four or five. And also in the Champions League against Feyenoord, that front three of Gordon, Rafinha, now has the number nine, who replaced Lewandowski, and Lamine, obviously, on the right hand side. It could be Ademey on the left as well for Gordon. But that's just been incredible. And you've got Firmin Lopez behind, who plays ahead of Dani Olmo, for example. And that, just the way they attack is breathtaking. The verticality, the pace, the rhythm, the intensity is just, they've been unstoppable so far. And they will be teams that are better

• 27:53Speaker 04

  defensively and stronger defensively than the ones we mentioned that they faced already, where they would have left space and they would have to find another way of winning. But so far, it's been remarkable, really. It's their joy to watch because of the way they attack. And yeah, in terms of balance, there'll probably be questions asked later in the season, especially in the Champions League, when they get to the later stages, or in the games against Atletico or Real Madrid in the league, for example. But for what they've showed so far, they've been such a force going forward that I don't know who will be able to stop them.

• 28:24Speaker 03

  And Lamine Yamal, he's another one that thinks he should win the Ballon d'Or. He's come out like Mbappe, he's had a similar sort of statement. So that PR machine, they're trying to work it for him. I think the fact that probably in the World Cup, because he was coming back from injury, I mean, they won the World Cup and he was still really good. But I don't think he quite reached the absolute heights that we know, that we know Lamine Yamal can reach. But yeah, it's that balance, it's that little kind of line between whether it's arrogance or confidence. But the greats have to have that, don't they?

• 28:58Speaker 04

  Yeah, absolutely. And what's interesting, I think, this season so far, certainly in those five league games, is that he's scored six goals and there's no assists yet. And yet, in past season, he was the creator, he was the provider a lot. Remember those crosses from the outside of his left foot, for example, that were incredible and those kind of things. And yet, it seems that maybe this season, he's focused a little bit more on the finishing, more than creative. Creative, he still is, of course, and he's still an incredible dribbler. But Firmin has done a lot of that. You've got Pedri, who's been in great form alongside Rodri in that midfield. You've got whoever is on that left hand side who's created a lot. And Gordon has four assists, for example, so far. He's been more creative in a way, and more than on that level than Lamine has. So it'll be interesting

• 29:41Speaker 04

  to see if Lamine keeps going into this scoring route more than probably the providing route. But I just love him. I think, I don't mind the swag, I don't mind the low shorts, I don't mind the dribbling, I don't mind that kind of super confidence slash arrogance that he has. I think he's great for the game, he's great for Barcelona and for Spain as well. And they won it without him at the World Cup, being at his best. So imagine what they could have done, or what they will be able to do in the Euros coming up, for example, in two years' time, if he's at his best again.

• 30:13Speaker 03

  I noticed, I thought it was quite amusing actually, with Rodri got caught out, and he said, against Valencia, when he was on the bench, wasn't he? He was chatting, going, these are so weak, so weak. He had to come out and apologise. You now see why they cover their mouths all the time.

• 30:32Speaker 04

  Exactly. We'll never talk like that ever again on that bench.

• 30:35Speaker 03

  Because I used to think, I've thought for years, why does everybody put their hands over their mouth all the time?

• 30:40Speaker 04

  And you know how they are in Spain, right? They don't miss a bit, do they? Everything is so scrutinised. And as soon as we saw Kubasi and Rodri talking on the bench, they said, I wonder what they've been saying. Here you go. A couple of lip readers later, and I think it was Cadenas or Chiringuito, you know, one of those shows. And not in a toxic, negative way to, you know, to create more controversy. It was just, it's interesting, this is what he said. And to be fair, Valencia are not good. They have one point, they're bottom of the table, they're going through a huge crisis with their owner. But he was just being honest to Kubasi. Oh my God, you know, that's not, that's not good. But I think next time he will cover his mouth if he talks like that about opponents.

• 31:21Speaker 03

  Yeah. Do you think there's a sense, because obviously, I think the one thing the Premier League does probably have over the other league is the strength in depth of the league, that you're never, you're never going to get a walk in the park, are you? So I think Rodri's probably gone there and thought... It's a bit easy, isn't it?

• 31:38Speaker 04

  Yeah, and don't forget, he left quite a while ago, you know, it's not like if if this La Liga version, he knew it because he was there a couple of years ago, for example. He left quite a while ago, he's had many, many years at City in the Premier League with that intensity, that kind of level every, every weekend, home or away, it doesn't matter so much. And there he arrives and I've been watching him, he literally plays like in his armchair, in his sofa, every game is kind of easy for him and in a super dominant team, so I get that. There will be tougher games, like we said earlier, but he's great. And I think to a certain extent, I wonder, Gary, if Anthony Gordon felt a little bit like that. Not that it's easy for him to play in this team, because, you know, I don't know how it is for an Englishman to go to Barcelona and to play in La Liga, but I'm sure that he's found the level of La Liga

• 32:23Speaker 04

  certainly lower than, than the intensity that it's had in the Premier League with Newcastle.

• 32:27Speaker 03

  It's difficult because the best teams, obviously, in La Liga are really good. And you look at the success that the Spanish league, La Liga, has had in European football over the last two decades and it's astonishing. It's, it's way ahead of, way ahead of the Premier League. So in the sense that, you know, those giants, Barcelona and obviously Real Madrid in particular, but you could add Atletico in there and the, and also the most extraordinary story, I think, in over a century in football is, is the, is Bilbao.

• 32:59Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 32:59Speaker 03

  You know, they, they're only allowed their own players from the Basque region. I mean, it's a phenomenal success for them and they've never been relegated.

• 33:06Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 33:06Speaker 03

  I mean, there is strength in depth in, in Spanish football. It used to irritate me a little bit when I actually played there that people say, oh, it's just, it's just Barcelona, Real Madrid, but it's not quite that. But yeah, I think it's probably top-heavy, more top-heavy perhaps than.

• 33:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, top seven for sure, top eight, yeah.

• 33:23Speaker 03

  Kubasi, I just want a, a word on him because he's a player that I've, I've watched since, I was going to say since he was young, he's still a child. And he's won, he's won a World Cup, he was obviously the young player of the tournament. I mean, he was, he's, he's such a talent. I think he suffered a little bit probably last season at Barcelona in terms of, you know, the, the high line and occasionally crazy high line in games against the top teams and not knowing quite when to drop, but I mean, he was absolutely imperious at the World Cup.

• 33:55Speaker 04

  Yeah, wonderful talent, there's no doubt. I think he would have learned a lot from last season in that kind of experience of the high defensive line and, and when you are literally on the halfway line and there's all that space behind you, but there's not enough pressure on who is ever on the ball from the opposition team in the, in, in midfield and then that ball can go over you and, but he would have learned a lot. I think you, I expect Kubasi at another level again this season. I think this Barcelona team, certainly in terms of that intensity, is even, is even more there than last season. I looked at some of the, the sprints that Rafinha, Rafinha is 24 sprints per game. Gordon is 21 sprints per game. This is un, like unraveled, no other teams has those kind of players.

• 34:38Speaker 03

  That's why they signed Anthony Gordon, wasn't it? Because he fits what, what Andy Flick wants.

• 34:43Speaker 04

  Yeah, so true. And when they put you under so much pressure because they press you and hassle you all the time, it's very difficult to play against. So I, I expect them to be even better defensively because of last season and how much they've learned from that and Kubasi being the, the key of that. But his quality on the ball is what sets him apart as well of other defenders, not just of his age, but even to like the world's best, like a Saliba, like a Pametano, like, I don't know, Gehe if you want, all those kind of bastoni, he's just that quality of passing, short range, long range is incredible.

• 35:14Speaker 03

  I mean, you see lots of superstars come through, but they're nearly always in forward positions. Central defenders tend to come along a little bit later because you, you know, there's a little bit more, I think, you have to think about the game a little bit more at the back, whereas it's just pure and natural when you're going forward. But to have that kind of tactical brain and the acumen at his age is very unusual for a central defender, isn't it?

• 35:41Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, really impressive. And again, I think maybe La Masia just teaches you so differently at the Barcelona academy that your football IQ is already so developed at a young age, even with the youth team, that when you step up into the first team and make your debut and, but like we said, he's been a bit rocky at times. He's made mistakes, he got, you know, bad passes or lost the ball in a way or, or was, you know, hung on the ball so much and somebody nicked the ball off him and went and scored. So those mistakes have happened, of course, and they probably will happen again because he's still only 18 or 19, but, but he's there and, and he's there for another 15 years easily. And I think that's quite scary to think that already everything that he's won at that, at that age, being a crucial part of all those teams, there's so much more to come from him.

• 36:26Speaker 03

  At the other end of the pitch, it's quite interesting to see what he's doing up front. Since he's played Rafinha a lot as, as, as a nine, because obviously Lewandowski is now gone. And, you know, he, he's shown that he can play on the right, he can play on the left, he can play up the middle and he's banging the goals in. As you said, they've not played the stronger teams in the Spanish league yet, but that in itself is an interesting shift.

• 36:46Speaker 04

  Yeah, so impressive. And I think we've seen it last season a little bit when Lewandowski was, was injured, that he would step, step in into that number nine position and basically he's got all that energy of a left, of, of a winger, especially on, on the left wing and all that intensity of, you know, being used to making those runs all the time, even if the ball doesn't get to you. And then he's got the intelligence to understand how to play as a, as a nine or as a false nine even, because he drops quite a lot, he touches the ball a lot, but then still makes those vertical runs so well. There was another one at the weekend where he got the ball in front of the defender and then the goal he scored against Feyenoord where he sat down those two defenders.

• 37:26Speaker 04

  You know, under the rain as well, they slid all the way to France, from the, from the Camp Nou all the way to France. It was incredible.

• 37:33Speaker 03

  It was a beautiful sight, that was. I mean, the two of them both went, they, woo.

• 37:38Speaker 04

  Wow, and they just could not stop even. And then he just got in, you know, so calmly, it's wonderful. And he's at that age now, at 30, where you're, this is your, the peak of your career as a forward. I remember Arsene Wenger always saying, forwards between 28 and 33, this is it. This is the time and that we are very much right now in the peak years of Rafinha, whether he's wide or centrally. And again, he's so fit, he's so strong, he's so quick. And now he's got that composure to finish those chances as a number nine is, is super impressive. I mean, I, I don't know how, how many goals he will score. He's already on, on sixth in the league in five games, he's got two more in the Champions League. I don't know if he will reach 30, 40, more even, but it's really impressive.

• 38:24Speaker 03

  Before we move on to, to, we'll go Germany next, but the Alvarez situation is, is actually playing, which is, is something, he's not been stood down or anything, but that was kind of an unusual awkward situation.

• 38:37Speaker 04

  Yeah, really awkward in the sense that we know about player power, we've, we've seen the, how much bigger he's got in the last few years. Well, when you want to transfer, it was, I guess, different in your, in your time, but when you want to transfer now and you, you send a letter saying that you want to leave, you, you, you delete all your photos from social media, this is a thing as well now, you show how much, you know, how much you want, you, you don't want to be there anymore, you know, that kind of stuff.

• 39:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, you stop kissing the badge.

• 39:04Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, all of that. And you know what, I like the fact that Atletico stood firm in a way, was like, no, we can't sell you to a direct competitor in the league like Barcelona, this is not acceptable for us. You can go to Arsenal, you can go to another club abroad, but if it's Barca that you want and only Barca, sorry, this is not possible, especially because they don't want to pay the 150 million that we want as well. You know, they were stuck at 100 million euros and they stood firm and I like that. They need him, he needs to play, he can't stay without playing until January now. And so it'd be interesting to see what happens now. They won without him at the weekend, it was not pretty, they won 3-0, but the goals came late and from some of the serves that Simone made, so he's not perfect yet, he's not back at his best,

• 39:49Speaker 04

  as impactful as he was for the team before, but they will need to find a solution to get him happy again and play happy and for him to, to, to be good for the team and for, to help the team winning.

• 40:01Speaker 03

  Are we going to see a new challenger? Well, it's not a new challenger, they've challenged before in previous seasons. But Borussia Dortmund have had a bit of a go in the transfer market because normally, obviously, the only big spenders in Germany are Bayern Munich, it's usually stealing the players off those that are challenging them most closely. So interesting shift there, but Bayern with the talent they've got will still take a hell of a lot of beating.

• 40:25Speaker 04

  Yeah, they would, but we saw in the Super Cup that they played at the end of, of August, Bayern won 2-1 against Dortmund, really good first half and then Dortmund were really strong in the second half. And to be fair, probably should have scored a second one to at least take the game to, to extra time. So right now Dortmund are three in three, they're the only team with Freiburg. Bayern dropped two points against Schalke, one of the new promoted sides, coming back up to, to the Bundesliga, which is great for German, German football to have Schalke back in the, in the top flight, obviously after a few years in the, in the second division. And that 0-0 draw, I think Bayern can play it again 99 times and they will win it 3-0 every time. But in that case, they drop points. So it'd be interesting to see, and I think the Dortmund, the Bayern Dortmund first, their Clasica is, is at the end of October.

• 41:10Speaker 04

  So we've got a bit of time still there, but, but Niko Kovac with new signings, although the, the two big ones were the two Greek boys that they signed, part of this new Greek generations of really talented player. Like we see with Tolis at Arsenal, Constantiass and, and Karazas, who both got injured. I mean, Constantiass is out for the, for the whole season with an ACL, which is.

• 41:30Speaker 03

  Such a shame.

• 41:32Speaker 04

  Yeah, like really, really such a shame. Karazas, I think, will come back, but Ethan Nwanieri stepped up and I think did well in the Champions League against Villarreal in the 3-2 win, played well against Paderborn again at the weekend in the 3-0 win. A really, really interesting player and move for Nwanieri, I think, at his age with Kovac. But he's looking good for Dortmund, I have to say, Gary.

• 41:51Speaker 03

  I think it's good for Nwanieri as well to get that experience of playing in a country like Germany, really good football. I mean, Dortmund as well has, has produced so many talented players and obviously one or two English ones have been there over the years. Bayern Munich, I think they're, probably their main target will be Champions League. I mean, you, you almost take for granted now that, I think there's only, what was it, Leverkusen in the last. 13, 14 years that won the title aside from them. So I think for them, the Holy Grail will be the Champions League, won't it? And they've got the talent to certainly be one of the favourites and compete.

• 42:28Speaker 04

  Yeah, I agree with you. And company has said it already that, you know, he will rotate more in the league now to make sure that his team is ready for the latest stages in the Champions League, you know, come March, April, May, quarterfinals, semifinals, final. Because I think last season against PSG, remember that incredible first leg at the Parc des Princes in their semi-final, that 5-4, one of the games of Champions League history, of European Cup history, if you want.

• 42:53Speaker 03

  Incredible, wasn't it?

• 42:54Speaker 04

  Yeah, breathtaking, the football, the attacking side of it, the movement, the talent, the technical ability, just everything.

• 43:01Speaker 03

  Do you know what I like about that as well is that Vincent Kompany was, you know, kind of an old school central defender in many ways. But he's playing, you know, his football is not that, which was great. And I mean, I love Luis Enrique, I think, I mean, his football is special. But that was, I think that was.

• 43:18Speaker 04

  It was special.

• 43:18Speaker 03

  You could put that up there as one of the games of Champions League history, one of the best games I've ever seen, I think.

• 43:24Speaker 04

  Yeah, he would be in all of our top five of top three for sure. But then in the second leg, I think they lacked maybe a bit of freshness. They lacked a bit of legs. PSG were playing a different game, obviously, and waiting more for them.

• 43:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 43:36Speaker 04

  Just closing all those spaces and everything. And I think company looked at that and said, yeah, we were not fresh enough, probably lacked a bit of energy and that fitness. So I expect them to be a bit different in the league. It should still be enough, you're right, to win it. In the end, they only signed two players, but two great addition in Brown, the left back from Frankfurt, who has been playing as a 10 in Muschela's absence and did really well. And then he smiles to Saibari, the Moroccan international, number one, yeah, who can come off the bench and play with Harry up front as a front two, or Harry drops a little bit deeper as a 10, and Saibari is your nine, he can play wide. And it was already, it looked, it looked like he's been at the club for a while, the impact that he's had on the team, including the assist on the winning goal at the weekend against

• 44:19Speaker 04

  Alvesberg, one of the promoted sign in Germany, one of the surprises packages so far, they're six in the table, and they were 1-1 with Bayern going into the last quarter of the last 15 minutes of the game. So Harry scored the winner and Bayern deserved to win too, to be fair. But Saibari had a great impact. So I expect Bayern to win the Bundesliga. And to be fair, I think they are a strong favourite as well with the PSGs and Barca's and Arsenal's for the Champions League too. Yeah.

• 44:44Speaker 03

  Got to be. What's happened to Italian football? I mean, when I played, obviously, that, and after I played, that was sort of the place to go.

• 44:54Speaker 04

  You have been, could you have gone there, by the way? Could you have played there? Did you have?

• 44:58Speaker 03

  I was very, very close to go. My second season at Barcelona, Terry Venables lost his job and halfway through the season, Luis Aragonés came in, who latterly won obviously the Euros with Spain as the coach. And I loved him, but Inter Milan got in touch, Inter, and they were at that stage where they were about to be very powerful. And I met Trapattoni, I think it was in Frankfurt we met.

• 45:24Speaker 04

  Amazing.

• 45:24Speaker 03

  And he gave me, he gave me a team shirt and he gave me some badges, so Inter badges and all this. And he said, we really want to make this happen. But in the end, Barcelona wouldn't sell me at that point.

• 45:34Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 45:35Speaker 03

  So what they did, they'd already got, obviously, they got Matthias and Braber, they had a German. And then instead of me, they went and got Klinsmann. And they won, they won everything, almost. And it was like, a little bit, because obviously by that stage of Barcelona, it wasn't going quite so well. Although I had a decent season that year. But yeah, then I thought I was going to go after Barcelona, I thought I was going to go to Fiorentina.

• 46:00Speaker 04

  Oh, wow.

• 46:01Speaker 03

  And that looked like happening. But then they sold Baggio, and I thought, not sure that's the place to go. So there were one or two times I got quite close, but it never happened. But that was the place to play. Apart from Barcelona and Real Madrid, it was obviously the two Milan's, and it was, that was Juve, and that was the big league. But it's far from being the big league now, isn't it? What's happened?

• 46:26Speaker 04

  It's really interesting, I think, Gary, because remember not that long ago, they had three clubs in the three European Cup finals too. And okay, they didn't win any of the three. But 2023, they had one in each, you know, Inter and I think Roma and Fiorentina were the three that were in those finals. So not all bad, and maybe in cup competitions, because they still, they still have really good tacticians on their benches and really good coaches. But the level of the league has dropped massively and.

• 46:51Speaker 03

  You could see it with the fact that Italy have not qualified for three straight World Cups.

• 46:56Speaker 04

  Absolutely. I think there's a problem through academies, and we talked about French academies and producing players. You know, Como are a great story, and we talk about them, and Cesc and what an amazing job he's doing there, and what a great coach he's going to be, for sure. But they've got no Italian players in the starting lineup in the Champions League game. You know, we record this on Monday, tonight, Inter Milan are playing against Udinese, Inter will have two Italian players out of 11 starters, Udinese will have none. And again, Sassuolo had, and we can look at, Juventus had only Vicario against Sassuolo, as this, the only Italian player they had in the starting 11, and as their goalkeeper, the rest are non-Italians. There's a lack of talent coming through from younger players, for sure. I think Italian clubs still would rather spend two or three

• 47:38Speaker 04

  million euros on a, on a player from somewhere in the lower leagues, or, you know, from their own league that is not Italian, than investing money in the academy to produce those Italian players coming through. So you end up with Bastoni and Barella, okay, great, DiMarco, great for Inter. And that's it. You look at Milan under Amorim, there's no Italians there either, you know, apart from one or two, maybe. And that's, that's a big problem for the national team. And Mancini was in France, he was in Paris, to watch Paris FC at the weekend, because he had two Italians internationals there, playing for Paris FC. It's crazy. And that's, that's the biggest problem for me, really.

• 48:16Speaker 03

  It has to be that. What a job Cesc Fabregas has done at Como. It's a great story. I think he's probably destined for a big club at some point, don't you?

• 48:27Speaker 04

  Yeah, absolutely. I mean, they were Inter Milan, when they appointed Chivu after Inzaghi left, they wanted him, but it was difficult for him, because you also own shares in Como as a club. So you can't own shares in a, in one Serie A club and manage another one, obviously. That's a massive conflict of interest, an issue that everybody would understand. But eight years ago, Como were in the fourth division. They were then close to bankruptcy, they were bought by this very rich family from Indonesia, who have a lot of money, and they've invested a lot and spending a lot on the transfer market, and good for them. But Cesc took them up from the second division, plays a very different brand of football to anything we see in Italy in terms of intensity, the pressing, the

• 49:09Speaker 04

  counter pressing. They're the only team really, with Roma and Gasperini in Italy, who have that kind of football of, of high intensity, high press, high defensive line. The others are still very much more of a slower tempo, if you want, bar maybe Inter too. But, so that, that's it. That's why they're so different. They finished fourth last season, they smashed Leipzig in the first game of, of the Champions League last week in the first ever.

• 49:33Speaker 03

  Really impressive start.

• 49:34Speaker 04

  Really impressive. And they've got Nikopas, who is a star in the making at 22, Asan Diao, Batrina, yeah, all those really creative players that Cesc brought over. And not just collectively Gary De Strong, but he's improving all those players individually, which I think again is a, is a proof of a great manager in the making.

• 49:50Speaker 03

  I've got one question for you before we finish. You've been very generous with your times, Julien, thank you very much.

• 49:56Speaker 04

  No, thank you.

• 49:57Speaker 03

  Who wins the Champions League?

• 50:00Speaker 04

  You know what, you know, my, obviously, my love.

• 50:03Speaker 03

  You're going to go with your heart and your head. Heart and your head, says PSG.

• 50:07Speaker 04

  Heart says PSG, as you know, but I think three in a row, and it's almost impossible. I think his mission is impossible. And the fact that only obviously Real and Cristiano and Zidane have done it in, before, since the 70s, and those great Bayern and Ajax teams of, of that era, I think shows you how difficult it is. Two, two in a row is already so difficult. Three, it would be incredible. The three people would be really, really wonderful. And we take this team from what it is, one of the greatest teams in European football history, to teams for eternity, really. So let's see if Luis Enrique can do another, another one of those incredible campaigns. But I will go for some, the head says obviously something different. I think Arsenal, we can wrap up the title in the Premier

• 50:52Speaker 04

  League quite early on this season. And if that's the case, yeah, if that's the case, then I think there will be a force in the Champions League, and I think they can go and win it. I would love a team like Barcelona, with all that attacking flair that we mentioned earlier, and for Lamine and Nancy Flick to go and win it, playing that brand of football of super attacking and winning a final 4-3 and a semi-final 7-6 on aggregate, and the quarterfinals the same. I think Bayern and company and Kane, and what an incredible season it would be for Kane to win the Champions League at that age, towards the end of his career, to finally get his hands on that trophy. But I will go for Arsenal. I think Arsenal will have everything to.

• 51:29Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 51:30Speaker 04

  What about you? Heads and hearts?

• 51:33Speaker 03

  I think my head and my heart are probably in the same place, I think, with Barcelona.

• 51:37Speaker 04

  I think.

• 51:37Speaker 03

  Yeah. I just like, I like the way they play. The, that high energy, that high press, it's can be dangerous the way they play. But the talent they've got, and now they've got that, that calmness of Rodri, just if he stays fit this season, obviously, he's had his fitness problems the last couple of years. If he does stay fit, then I, I think they'll, they'll go all the way. But I'm a bit like you, Pesci, I'm a bit biased, but my head says that as well. If, if he does stay fit, I think they'll do it. I mean, they're on a roll as well. Julien, thank you so much. Fascinating, as always.

• 52:14Speaker 04

  Thank you so much. Anytime.

• 52:15Speaker 03

  That's it for this episode of The Rest Is Football. Goodbye from me.

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