Pod Insights The Rest Is Football Emma Hayes & Joe Hart on Tuchel questioning England’s DNA About this episode Gary Lineker, Alan Shearer, Micah Richards, Joe Hart and Emma Hayes reflect further on England's World Cup exit now that we've got a bit of distance since the game - including Emma's view as a coach on Tuchel's tactical decisions and we get Joe's view on Jude Bellingham's reaction to Jordan Pickford's effort to save the first Argentina goal
Plus we look ahead to the final on Sunday between Spain and Argentina
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1:24 Speaker 04 Hello and welcome to The Rest Is Football. Did you miss us yesterday? Of course you didn't. Well, the big one is upon us. England versus France in the third-place playoff. Oh, and of course, the final. Alan and Micah are back from Atlanta. Plus, we've got Emma Hayes and Joe Hart here in the studio. How are we all?
1:42 Speaker 05 Oh, great.
1:43 Speaker 06 All good, thank you.
1:43 Speaker 05 It's nice to see you guys. How you doing?
1:45 Speaker 06 Good to be here, mate. Good to be here. We're not on set with that one-second delay and Micah just screaming at the TV.
1:51 Speaker 04 Have you been travelling around?
1:53 Speaker 07 I've just come back from Atlanta, like these guys, but enjoyed it. I can't say enjoyed it, suffered it, enjoyed it. But incredible stadium in Atlanta.
2:04 Speaker 04 Yeah. Not so much the game.
2:08 Speaker 04 Micah, once again, you've been pictured with famous friends.
2:12 Speaker 05 Oh, did he post it, did he?
2:13 Speaker 04 I've seen it.
2:14 Speaker 05 Who stops it?
2:15 Speaker 04 Somebody did. I've seen it.
2:16 Speaker 05 Yeah, now, come on, roll now. I roll in the highest of circles, guys. I roll in the highest of circles now. What did you do? DM them as well? Stop, I took a picture, please!
2:28 Speaker 04 Some combo, that, innit?
2:29 Speaker 05 Yeah, it was nice.
2:30 Speaker 06 Did he know who you were?
2:31 Speaker 05 Of course he did!
2:32 Speaker 06 Bullshit!
2:36 Speaker 04 Alan, you got your flight back okay?
2:39 Speaker 06 Well, yeah, just. Actually, it was really weird because I got on the flight and sat there and everyone's coming on, the plane's full, and then they come on and said, "We're delayed. We've overbooked by fourteen. They downsized the plane the night before." And there were fourteen people that had sort of checked in. I saw them, they come down, come onto the plane. "Right, guys, excuse the American accent." "Right, guys, we need at least fourteen people to get off this plane because they've checked in." And it was like, no one budged. So they came back and they said, "Right, guys, we're gonna offer $1,000. Hotel, food, alcohol, all free." No one budged.
3:23 Speaker 06 They came back and said, "We'll offer $1,500."
3:27 Speaker 05 What was it?
3:30 Speaker 06 And then, no one budged again. You must have experienced this on the plane. And then they come back again and said, "We'll offer $2,000." I'm thinking, "If they go to 2.5, I'm getting off."
3:42 Speaker 06 Then, no one moved. And then, they go to $2,250 and eventually two people get up and say, "Yeah, we'll swap." And it was like, "God, I've never seen this happen before." If that had gone to 2.5, I was off. I was staring at the lantern for the night and taking the two and a half grand.
4:01 Speaker 04 Joe, it's good to see you.
4:02 Speaker 06 Good to see you too.
4:03 Speaker 04 It'd be nicer if it was under better circumstances, but it didn't happen for England.
4:07 Speaker 06 Honestly, it was so close, but yet it was so far. I think the first 55, 60 minutes, it was a ding dong. It was so aggressive. We were all on the edge of our seats, not knowing whether the referee was involved. Every single player, every single action had a reaction. And then, obviously Gordon scoring that goal.
4:29 Speaker 06 And then Messi and his team just got bigger and bigger and England just kind of shrunk and they just felt like, it felt like panic setting. I don't know what you thought.
4:38 Speaker 07 I just think once Scaloni made the first chess move after the goal, that for me was the biggest blow because he instantly, not just when Gonzalez come in, he just pushed the team up. And once, you talk about four against the backline, it was more than that. He had six up against and then it was react to what Scaloni was doing and then of course enter the genius which is Messi and I think with De Paul coming on, it allowed Messi to go out wide on the right and that. Argentina are a team that are a death by a thousand cuts.
5:12 Speaker 06 Yeah.
5:13 Speaker 04 I'm going to go into depth shortly, but first I want to read Thomas Tuchel's quotes that he's most recently said. He said, "In this moment", this is obviously when, after they went 1-0 up, "In this moment, my feeling was no structure in the world could have helped us. Because actually, we were too passive and we were not physical enough. We didn't stop runners arriving in our box. Right after the goal, the momentum swings completely and ball possession drops dramatically. We couldn't find any jewels anymore. That's why we dropped deeper and deeper. And it was never the plan, but it happened. You need to get back on the ball, otherwise you cannot break the pressure and you cannot get the momentum back."
5:54 Speaker 04 And I just want to go on to one more quote. "I think ball possession plays a crucial role. It's maybe not in our DNA like it is in Spanish DNA or in Argentinian, Brazilian DNA to take the ball and control the game with the ball."
6:10 Speaker 05 Those quotes are nonsense, aren't they? And I've been talking and singing praises of two all tournament. I've basically said he's been very brave. We was talking about he should have took Cole Palmer, he should have took Foden, he should have took Trent. And I like the fact that he doesn't listen to anyone and he's directing what he wants to do. But then you hear these quotes and he says he's got no one who can get on the ball and control the game. Well, Cole Palmer can do that, Foden can do that and Trent can do that.
6:37 Speaker 04 Koby Mayne?
6:39 Speaker 05 Walton can do that, so I feel as though he's passing the blame when he should just be taking responsibility.
6:46 Speaker 06 I felt like that was a fair appraisal of the game, of someone who didn't have the control to change the game. So that was someone who, it felt like he'd watched the game and gone, fucking hell, they couldn't get control. But he's in, like, his job is to be in the game. I don't know, when you're on the side, his job's to be in the game.
7:03 Speaker 04 One point that he said, no structure in the world could have helped us.
7:07 Speaker 07 You know what, I'm sitting there, I'm thinking, it's like whack-a-mole from the touchline. And when you got, and I'm sitting there in line with, in the Argentinian half. We score, first action, we go down the other end, square ball turnover, they transition, get behind Jed. Our next set of actions, behaviours for players was to drop deep, that was not coaching led.
7:33 Speaker 06 No.
7:34 Speaker 07 Anthony Barry was up pushing the team to get up, to get out. Then, of course, you have the opportunity in hydration breaks. He chose not to change the personnel in a radical way because it would have involved taking off our top two players potentially. And I think he was caught in a position where he was constantly reacting to Scaloni's moves. And so I do agree with him that when you've got six pinning your four, it was inevitable we would go into the five. But it was because Scaloni got the first punch every time, that was the difficult part.
8:09 Speaker 00 But do you think then, part of the issue was, is that if you're gonna go further and further back, which he did, he makes his changes, but also you've got guys who are totally shot up front. I mean, Harry's leg had gone.
8:23 Speaker 07 That was clear.
8:24 Speaker 00 He would have been far better off bringing someone with some legs on, rather than another defender. Because at least you've then got an outball.
8:31 Speaker 07 He's got to live with that, and he will. He will be processing.
8:35 Speaker 00 That's the bit that'll hurt him, yeah?
8:36 Speaker 04 I mean, his whole thing before the tournament is, if we're gonna lose, we're gonna lose our way. We play aggressive football, we're gonna play attacking football. And then he went completely against everything that he took.
8:45 Speaker 07 But it's a functional group, we call it functionality in terms of players and profiles that are more, I think, conducive to the French style, that have got top individuals. And then you've got the two teams that are in the final that are the best collective teams.
8:59 Speaker 04 Yep, I agree with that.
9:00 Speaker 07 And we're not there with that yet. But I will also say... We have a tendency to say, "Oh, that didn't work, tear it up, sack him, he's not elite." Listen, we've been in top semi-final finals over the last six, eight years. We have to ask the question, what's missing? What is missing? And I'm telling you, it felt like there was a mental framework in terms of the players. Whether that's whatever, and sometimes it can just be the combination of things.
9:28 Speaker 04 How do you change that as a coach?
9:30 Speaker 07 You know what, I'm all, so when he talks about DNA, I keep thinking to myself, what is it? And you know this, Spain and their players developed methodologically to play a certain way from the age of eight, ingrained, in tune with that. Argentina, it's ingrained in them that we play as a collective, as a brotherhood. For us, I think there are things we still have to add because we haven't won at senior international level. And I think crossing that line is often the hardest one. And I think when, I hope, we get into that position, perhaps that will change.
10:07 Speaker 00 Wasn't he brought in to change that, to do that? His words when he took the job were, "We're more than happy to take that on and not accept defeat, but go with it." He was the one that was brought in to get us through those semi-finals and win finals.
10:24 Speaker 07 I'm not disagreeing with you. The two coaches that are in the final, two coaches that have been with their team for extended periods, Del Fuente for many, many years, Scaloni, two cycles. You get these players for no more than 15 games a year, something about 35 sessions a year. It is not club football. It takes time and we have to invest in that.
10:45 Speaker 04 I always thought, and you'll remember, going back a few years, I wanted Lee Carsley and Ashley Cole to carry on because they'd done exactly what Del Fuente had done with Spain.
10:56 Speaker 07 That's why I say we do have DNA.
10:58 Speaker 04 And Scaloni had done with Argentina. Of course we have DNA, of course we have. And I think it's quite insulting for him to suggest that we don't have the DNA of players that can pass the ball.
11:07 Speaker 07 You know, I'm going to challenge, I'm going to challenge us. At what point did anyone really ask him, "What does DNA mean to you?" Because we're making assumptions on that, the same way as he challenged with the conversation around mentality. The reference, I think he's talking about the very things that are missing from our team.
11:24 Speaker 04 What's our DNA, Joe?
11:27 Speaker 06 It's definitely changed over the years, hasn't it? It's definitely changed, it's definitely improved in terms of when you look at the players in our national team. Our superstars are at Bayern Munich, you know, they're not just English based. We've got Real Madrid, obviously Trent wasn't picked, but Jude was there. So people are willing to travel the globe and be picked by these superstars. But I just think on the Thomas Tuchel point, and I agree with you, Emma, you know, what is the... I think that press conference is so important today because I'm going to reserve my judgement on him until this moment, until he speaks. Because it's very difficult, I think, on the night to have a fair appraisal. We were in the stadium and I know it's everyone's job to do certain things.
12:02 Speaker 00 Raw still, yeah.
12:03 Speaker 06 But there's no doubt that there was a lot that went on when they're out. It was emotional, it was bodies on the line, decisions he definitely wouldn't have made in hindsight, of course he wouldn't. But I think it's really important how he interviews today.
12:15 Speaker 07 Yeah, I agree with you there.
12:16 Speaker 06 For his future, for how he interviews today, because if he tries to justify how it went, then we might have a problem.
12:21 Speaker 04 I think one perhaps be clear, I think nobody, nobody has an issue with the player's commitment. I think they've worked their socks off.
12:30 Speaker 05 No, it was brilliant, absolutely Brazilian, Brazilian.
12:33 Speaker 07 And you guys know more than ever, you know, than anyone, how difficult that can be and how challenging that is. And we're talking about margins here, that this, the country has been able to get to the latter stages. We just need to learn how to cross the line.
12:47 Speaker 00 I think if you've got like 96 and like 98, the tournaments that I played in. If you, as a player, come out of a tournament and say, "We've given our very best here, we've worked our nuts off for six or seven weeks."
13:00 Speaker 04 We could say 786 and 96.
13:02 Speaker 00 And then that's, I think that's more than acceptable and I think that's the case with all of them.
13:07 Speaker 06 Well, that's just, I did an interview quite soon after for the radio and my back went up immediately. Because how disappointed are they going to be in how, were they the right changes? And I was thinking... Are we going to give any respect to the team that's beat us here?
13:22 Speaker 04 Well, no, they're great.
13:23 Speaker 06 Because we're talking about the teams with World Cup medals, something that we haven't achieved. They've won Copa Americas galore, they've got the greatest player ever on the planet. I'm not saying that we should bow down to them, but let's calm down when we're looking for blame here. And sometimes you've got to credit the fact that it was a hell of a ding dong. And then when the big moments came, Argentina got bigger and we struggled.
13:43 Speaker 05 But can I just add to that though, because you're a manager, Emma, and I always like to get in the... Your thoughts and what you're thinking on the sideline. So you mentioned Scaloni and you mentioned Tuchel. Tuchel's supposed to be an elite manager, isn't he? So surely he should be proactive rather than reactive?
14:00 Speaker 07 Listen, they were. I was watching the benches, instantly Scaloni went, concede a goal, front foot. We tried to get our players off the pitch, you could see it, there was an attempt by the coaching staff to do it. The question I'd ask is, would you do anything differently?
14:17 Speaker 05 What would you have done?
14:20 Speaker 07 Truthfully?
14:20 Speaker 05 Differently, this is what we want to know.
14:22 Speaker 07 I felt we needed fresh legs.
14:24 Speaker 05 Correct.
14:25 Speaker 07 Especially in the front areas. But the challenge of all of those things is because Messi had peeled out wide, now you're going to ask a forward player to deal with the overload that they've got there. It was the fact that they'd created that situation, so I think he did deal with that. But Scaloni said, "We've got nothing coming on your right hand side, we'll take our left back out", then it pinned us even further. So I think, I don't want to say it's shit or bust in those moments, but the hydration break, I think if he had it again, he might do something differently again. And that might involve taking some of the front players off.
15:04 Speaker 04 Joe, can I ask you about Pickford in goal? He's got a bit of stick for the first goal and it's been exacerbated by the fact that Bellingham was caught saying, "It was in the middle of the goal". Goalkeeper's thoughts please, because I think he was pretty unsighted even though it was.
15:19 Speaker 06 So the reason why a lot of people, now that Jude's shown the world that it wasn't...
15:25 Speaker 04 Would you have had a hump with him for that?
15:27 Speaker 06 I'll tell you what, one thing that I struggled with as a teammate, Meeks or Justo, I'm a calm, I'm a nice guy, I want everyone to do well. I want everyone to do well. But there were moments as a goalkeeper, and I didn't realise I had this in me, when I was very young... Someone in a League Two game for Shrewsbury Town, one of the centre halves, I didn't come for a cross, maybe I should have.
15:47 Speaker 04 Yeah.
15:48 Speaker 06 Say to me, I'm talking to you as me, come for the fucking cross. I'll go, absolutely no problem. When someone starts going like this to the crowd.
15:57 Speaker 04 Yeah.
15:58 Speaker 06 Red mist. I'll fight anyone because that's not a teammate in my opinion. Now, I did not love what happened there. I get, I get it's emotional, I get Jude wears his heart on his sleeve. But when it comes to moments like that, I'd rather one of my teammates stand over me and say, save the fucking ball.
16:16 Speaker 04 Yeah.
16:16 Speaker 06 Than gesticulate to the crowd. Because, well, it's who he is and it's what makes him who he is. But that's, that's not helping anyone because that actual action. Because now we want the perfect world where Jordan Pickford's standing in the middle of the goal and anything in the corners he can get to. There was five, six, seven bodies that he's trying to.
16:36 Speaker 07 That's my point about the collective. Argentina concede, there's no fingers pointing, it's the collective approach to get up.
16:43 Speaker 06 Honestly, Emma, that made my chest tight after the game because I'm with Jude for the cavalier way that he brings it on. But you can't have 11 of those in the team. I've said that. And I would, you know I would have struggled with that.
16:56 Speaker 05 It's a little bit hard though because we've had moments together where we've played together.
17:00 Speaker 06 Yeah.
17:01 Speaker 05 And the frustration in the moment, he fought for your hands. I remember he once turned to me and said, don't, you know what I mean?
17:07 Speaker 06 Yeah.
17:07 Speaker 05 Don't you effing do that to me. But we know how Jude is.
17:11 Speaker 06 Yeah, yeah.
17:12 Speaker 05 We know he's a total winner. He didn't need to do it because he's sort of hanging his mate out to dry a little bit. But it's just in that moment when you want to win something so much, I just remember throwing my hands up and you absolutely saw him.
17:25 Speaker 04 I suspect he didn't do it for the count.
17:28 Speaker 06 No, he didn't.
17:28 Speaker 04 He's done it just out of exasperation.
17:30 Speaker 06 What I'm saying is, I'm not saying he's wrong.
17:32 Speaker 05 No.
17:33 Speaker 06 I'm not saying Jude's wrong, he's free to do whatever he wants. But if you want, if you want my opinion of how that would have made me feel.
17:38 Speaker 05 Yeah.
17:39 Speaker 06 And who's to say I'm right? Who's to say Jordan's right if he wouldn't have been happy with it?
17:42 Speaker 07 I always say to players with situations like that, you have to ask yourself the question, is it helping the team win? And if it's not, then think differently or behave differently.
17:50 Speaker 04 I think the missed opportunity in the game was the commercial break. I like to call them that, Ron. It was the commercial break. He had three minutes there and he could already see we were back, back, back and he didn't choose to make a change at that point. He latterly brought on obviously.
18:09 Speaker 07 Sure, but he might very well have made a tactical change, but being able to action it is what didn't happen if that was the case. I agree, it'd be interesting to see his reflection on that because sometimes you don't have to make personnel changes to make tactical changes. But for whatever reason, for me sitting there live, it felt like we were just retreating even against the wishes of the manager.
18:36 Speaker 05 Let's have it right now, he got his tactics wrong, didn't he? He got his tactics wrong. I was a fan of him, I was giving him the big build up. This is why we want Tuchel, he'll make in-game substitutions.
18:47 Speaker 04 I mean, Scaloni himself, Scaloni himself said he was really surprised at what he did and he smelled blood.
18:53 Speaker 05 Take some responsibility, you got it wrong. You move on, you look at where you could improve and you go as a team to move forward.
19:00 Speaker 06 That's why today's important mix, because I think that would...
19:03 Speaker 04 Do you think he needs to own it today?
19:04 Speaker 06 Own it might...
19:05 Speaker 04 Say I got it wrong?
19:05 Speaker 06 Even just say, "I got caught up in the moment."
19:07 Speaker 04 Because everyone makes mistakes.
19:08 Speaker 06 Or if they're as strong a team as he's talking about, I think he's able to say, as Emma's saying, "I didn't ask the boys to do that. That's what happened, so that's what we went with because they're on the pitch and there's only so much I can do." But I want to know whether it was a him decision, the boys' decision, because I'm not going to hold it against them because they were under siege and they were mentally scrambled.
19:26 Speaker 07 And it's not for a lack of trying.
19:28 Speaker 06 No, never.
19:30 Speaker 07 The issue is the execution piece and that's why I talk about mental frameworks. Because if you're instantly thinking, "Oh, they've broken, we've just conceded a chance, let's sit a little bit lower." You don't even know what's that out loud, it's your body language, it's taking two steps backwards. All of those things that will happen in line.
19:48 Speaker 06 I think England just missed one man on the pitch, just being able to stand up and just say, from that centre-half or whatever position, just say, "Harry, fuck off."
19:57 Speaker 04 Stay up.
19:58 Speaker 06 Stay up.
19:58 Speaker 04 Comes back and he makes...
19:59 Speaker 06 Because he's so honest and I think Harry in that moment would need someone to say that and go, "You're right." Just someone take hold of the game, whatever that may be, they don't even have to be the best player, just someone just moving on.
20:10 Speaker 04 You know what I've learnt over the years, it's quite hard to win a world.
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21:32 Speaker 04 I want to ask Emma and Joe, both of you, about the final because Micah and Alan will be here tomorrow. We're going to do our preview. But as you're here today, I'd love to get your take on what should be a fascinating final.
21:47 Speaker 07 The best two collective teams in the world. One with a collective approach football-wise that has been enshrined, ingrained from babies to a team that has the most incredible brotherhood. They are warriors. They come together as a collective. They showed it in an adverse situation. I'm a huge fan.
22:09 Speaker 04 Which one wins, Emma? Which one comes out on top?
22:11 Speaker 07 I think.
22:12 Speaker 04 Tough to call.
22:12 Speaker 07 I think, while I think, I think Spain, they've been my tip the whole time. I'm putting Spain there. But we, we talked about England the other night for getting, as Joe said, the genius that is Messi. And, and you cannot rule them out. In fact, they get better when they go behind. But Spain will kill them by not giving them the ball. That's the difference.
22:36 Speaker 06 Yeah, I think it's going to be. It's hard to put the other night behind us and it's hard to not feel anything towards Argentina. But if I'm going to completely numb myself as a neutral, I'm so excited for this game and I'm so excited to see how Argentina can ruin the perfect football of Spain. And I'm going to go, I think it's going to be, I'm going to go the other way.
22:56 Speaker 07 You know, fair enough.
22:58 Speaker 06 I think they're going to punch the life out of each other, very similar. And when it comes to those big moments, Lionel Messi is phenomenal. Like, the level that he's at, to see what he did the other night. To see what he did the other night in the cauldron, when everyone else is emotional. The guy's heart rate didn't get above 60. It was just super calm and he won't take offence to Spain having the ball. I'm really excited.
23:24 Speaker 04 Never thought I'd see him whipping in balls with his right foot.
23:26 Speaker 06 Do you know what I mean? But that's what the game needed.
23:28 Speaker 04 The fellow's been keeping that one under.
23:29 Speaker 06 That's what the game needed, so that's what he did and that's just why he's so good.
23:33 Speaker 04 I mean, he is extraordinary.
23:36 Speaker 07 It's the way the team work to service him though, that's the most impressive part. That's why I talk about the collective, because they do whatever they can to put their Messiah in a position to win the game.
23:47 Speaker 04 Well, you would, wouldn't you, if you were a central player?
23:49 Speaker 07 De Paul came on the pitch and the first thing he did is he gestured to his teammates. He went, "Give me the ball" and he looked at Messi and he went, "I'm giving you the ball." And instantly, the game just...
24:00 Speaker 04 As a coach, I mean, people have tried for two decades and not succeeded. How do you stop him? How do you deal with him? How's Spain managing tomorrow?
24:10 Speaker 07 A collective approach.
24:11 Speaker 04 Keep the ball.
24:12 Speaker 07 A collective approach. The question is, how are Argentina going to set up against Spain? Spain have got two centre halves that are comfortable in possession. The best way to do it is to go player for player and force Spain into going long. But I don't think they're going to have the front players to be able to do that. I think the difference with Spain is if Spain score, Spain won't give Argentina the ball. That's what I think the difference will be.
24:36 Speaker 04 Do you both think Spain will win? Do you stick with them?
24:39 Speaker 06 I'm going to go with Argentina.
24:40 Speaker 04 Argentina.
24:41 Speaker 06 I do, I do. I think there's something special about them.
24:43 Speaker 04 Fifty-fifty, but I tipped Spain at the start, honestly.
24:45 Speaker 06 Did you?
24:45 Speaker 00 He just thought he'd drop that in.
24:47 Speaker 06 So did I, baby. So did I.
24:49 Speaker 07 Who did I go?
24:50 Speaker 00 Old friend.
24:51 Speaker 07 Anyway.
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