England Go Toe-to-Toe With The World Champions & Man City’s Charges

Why was England’s performance against Spain much more encouraging than how things ended at the World Cup? Who was ‘star of the show’ for England yet again? What’s next for Cole Palmer and his England future? Gary, Alan and Micah are joined by Rob Jones to dissect England’s defeat against Spain. The group also discuss how the recent news around Man City’s charges will be affecting their current players. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hi, this is Gary Lineker from Goalhangers, the rest is football. This episode is brought to you by Wise. It's only when you start moving money between currencies that you really think about the exchange rate, the fee and what might be hidden away in the small print. Whether you're living abroad, paying someone overseas or just trying to manage your money across borders, you want a fair exchange rate and easy transfer and no surprises along the way. Wise keeps things simple. Wise is a smart way to move the currencies you need around the globe. It works in more than 160 countries and with over 40 currencies. Most transfers arrive instantly. Wise uses the mid-market exchange rate, like the one you see on Google, with no markups or hidden fees.

• 0:44Speaker 00

  So when money needs to move, you can see the rate, know the fee and get on with it. Join millions saving billions on hidden fees by downloading the Wise app today. Be smart, get wise, Ts and Cs apply.

• 1:09Speaker 00

  Hello and welcome to the Rest is Football with Alan Shearer, former Premier League winner, Micah Richards and me, Gary Lineker. England have played their first game since crashing out of the World Cup semi-final versus Argentina and although we've lost again, chaps, to the world champions, Spain, there were lots of positives for Thomas Tuchel to take. We'll come to that shortly, but how's your weekend been, Micah?

• 1:38Speaker 01

  I knew you was gonna start with this. Nothing has changed. Can we see it? There's been nothing from the Premier League. Man City stances, there's still the same statement that they released in 2023 and until then-

• 1:51Speaker 00

  You're still a Premier League winner.

• 1:52Speaker 01

  Exactly. So until then, I will hold my judgement until everything is announced.

• 1:58Speaker 02

  Oh, what a mess. Incredible.

• 2:00Speaker 00

  Obviously we're jest on here, but it has serious implications and ramifications, this whole thing. It's not official yet, like you said, Micah, so I don't think it's something that we'll go into in depth now, but as soon as it is official and it does appear that that would be very likely, that they've lost pretty much all of the cases of the 115. So we'll cover that in due course, but more important things. Alan, another wedding yesterday, another daughter gone.

• 2:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:35Speaker 00

  How was it?

• 2:36Speaker 02

  Slightly blurred this morning, guys, a bit of a hangover. Yeah, it was an amazing day. I loved it. We all had a great day and obviously very happy, the new couple. So yeah, it was, it all went really well. The weather was great, everything was brilliant, an amazing day.

• 2:54Speaker 00

  Now, it's quite unusual to have two daughters married just over a month apart.

• 2:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:59Speaker 00

  Did they get a bit competitive over the wedding? Who had the best wedding?

• 3:03Speaker 02

  No, no, no, they're not. I mean, they're very different girls. They're not like that at all. Obviously, one we had last month was in France, in Provence, and this one here is in North Yorkshire, where I'm still here. So the celebrations are still ongoing and will be until tonight. So, God, I'm looking forward to a holiday. They're on the bank balance this summer, taking a deep breath.

• 3:26Speaker 01

  Can I just pull you up on some? One got one a wedding in Provence, as you pronounced it, and one's in Yorkshire. How does that work out?

• 3:35Speaker 02

  Your neck of the woods. Are you saying Provence is better than Yorkshire? Is that what you're saying?

• 3:39Speaker 01

  I didn't, I didn't say that, just said-

• 3:41Speaker 00

  We intimated it, you intimated it, Micah.

• 3:44Speaker 01

  There were differences with in Provence and he put on this silly accent and then he said Yorkshire. So I'm guessing, I'm guessing there's a difference.

• 3:53Speaker 02

  No, they were very different weddings, yeah. Obviously you saw the pictures of the ones in France. Yeah, very different. But I have to say, the weather yesterday was amazing, blue skies. So the pictures, I'm sure, will be great, yeah.

• 4:05Speaker 01

  And what about your speech? Do you do both speeches? Did you get emotional? Did you do the same?

• 4:11Speaker 02

  I mean, I got emotional before I even said a word yesterday. I just looked at my daughter when I had my speech ready to go and I just looked and I went, I could, I could feel myself welling up. So yeah, very emotional, really, really is.

• 4:24Speaker 00

  I suppose having got emotional with the first one, if you hadn't with the second, you'd have been proud, yeah?

• 4:31Speaker 00

  You don't care enough if someone's going back saying about me. But anyway, congratulations to all concerned. Let's turn our attention to the England game, a defeat against a very, very good side, Micah.

• 4:45Speaker 01

  Oh, I mean, Spain are excellent. I just love, you know, in the first 10 minutes of the game?

• 4:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:54Speaker 01

  I was looking at tactics, what they do, because I know, we all know the brilliant players, but what do they do differently? So the centre rafts go really deep to get the ball. At one time, I saw Simon rolling the ball just to draw England out a little bit. Then they will go pop to the left, pop to the middle, right, and everyone is so comfortable on the ball. It was a joy to watch and even if it didn't happen, where it would have got cut out with England's press, they would try it again and they would try it again and you can see the coaching and how they've been drilled all the way from youth to now. And it was just great to see them constantly do the same things, even when it wasn't working.

• 5:36Speaker 01

  But then they believe in their ability that it would happen and if they constantly try it, they could get out at some point. And then you've got obviously Williams and then Yamal and then you've got Torres. I just think they were a joy to watch. But I actually think England were very good too.

• 5:53Speaker 00

  I agree, they really were. I thought they played some really good football. After 10 minutes, I thought, oh crikey, this could be embarrassing.

• 5:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:59Speaker 00

  And then we kicked into gear. I thought the midfield did really well. Played some really good football ourselves at times, penned them in on numerous occasions, created chances, had lots of shots. I thought it was a much more encouraging performance. Obviously doesn't have quite the pressure of their previous game. Well, actually, one before the third place playoff, obviously I'm talking about Argentina. But England played some really good football, sometimes on the counter-attack, sometimes keeping them in there. And star of the show for me again, Jude Bellingham. I mean, there were some really great performances, I thought, but I thought he was, he's such a good footballer.

• 6:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was, it was pretty concerning, I thought, what I saw in terms of how many chances England were given away in the first 10 or 15 minutes. But then after that, I thought they played really well, obviously defensively, they were punished for their mistakes. See, I told you you should have played Lewis Holden, would have been all right.

• 6:54Speaker 01

  Well, hold on, O'Reilly got an assist, actually, if you were watching the highlights correctly.

• 6:59Speaker 00

  Great cross as well.

• 7:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:00Speaker 01

  Great cross, but I thought Anderson, you know, when I talked to him at the World Cup and talking about when you're supposed to jump, when you're supposed to stay, I thought it dictated the game so well. It was dropping into the centre-back positions. He's playing short passes, but then playing long passes. But then, because Jude, like you said, guys, had such a good game, Anderson had to actually be more disciplined. And when you're watching the game, yes, you're looking at the star players, you want to see Lemmy in the dream, you want to see Bellingham, you want to see Gordon, who started really well for Barcelona, to see if he can replicate that and then he gets his goal. But actually, I was looking at the discipline of Anderson and I thought he was amazing.

• 7:43Speaker 01

  He was so controlled in what he was doing and he was reading when to go, when to press, when to jump, but then getting back into position. And like his way of his passing was so good yesterday as well. In there with Lewis Skelly, who I thought was doing really well, his energy in the midfield was good. I was, I come away from that game thinking, if England play like that with confidence-

• 8:07Speaker 00

  We'll win the Euros.

• 8:08Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, let's not go too far, you know what I mean? Let's not go too far, but it was so enjoyable to watch. And if Harry Kane would have scored that to make it 3-1, we're talking about a different game. We're talking about England were even better than we're giving them credit for now.

• 8:23Speaker 02

  I know he played in midfield last season, but his rise like this season to go into Arsenal, into England, into the midfield has been remarkable, hasn't it?

• 8:31Speaker 00

  It has really, isn't it? Especially, it's funny, isn't it? Because you've got Nico O'Reilly, who's really a midfield player, turned left-back and then you've got Skelly, who's a full-back, seems to have turned into a midfield player. Obviously, when they grow up nowadays, they kind of play everywhere, all these positions, which is really good for them. But two exceptional footballer. I think he's done really well in that midfield role, filling the boots of Declan Rice. Big responsibility against Spain, especially when you've got, obviously, one of the midfielders, Jude, who's primarily in forward positions. So I thought both Miles Lewis-Skelly and Anderson in there were, I thought, exceptional. As you said, Anderson was all over it, really, really, really impressive.

• 9:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, to see his growth from when he was at Newcastle, and I have a little bit of laugh about, I said, I've seen him at Newcastle, he's really good and all that sort of stuff. But the development, first you've got to go to, from Newcastle, then you've got to go to Forest and then prove that you can do it week in, week out, in a team which has got good players, but can you be consistent? Then it goes from Forest to Man City and then now it's a step above. Do you remember the-

• 9:40Speaker 00

  It's a step above until they go to the Championship.

• 9:43Speaker 01

  The fans have died already.

• 9:45Speaker 00

  Sorry Micah, but on a serious point there, I wonder what Elliot Anderson is thinking. I mean, you have to be concerned. I mean, there were three City players, weren't there, in the starting line-up last night? And I wonder, you know, does it affect your mind? Are we going to be relegated? I mean, no one knows at the moment.

• 10:03Speaker 02

  They must have known that though, guys. There must have been that element of, for the new signings that City have had, they must have known that this, there's a possibility that this could happen. I mean, whatever gets thrown at them, they must have known or their agents must have spoken about this scenario.

• 10:20Speaker 00

  I mean, when it's the legal process, they, once they announce their findings, they don't tend to leak them earlier on. And I suppose this is very last minute. So maybe it wasn't, you know, maybe they've said to the club, what's going to happen? Are these charges going to be a thing? And the club may have said, well, as far as we're concerned, we think we're going to win. Or you don't know, do you, what's actually been said? Because it's hard to imagine, if you knew this was coming, the potential, you know, a massive point reduction that would ensure relegation or whatever might happen. You've got to bear that in mind. If it's not the players themselves, their advisers, you would have, it's almost like doing kind of due diligence in some ways. I'm sure it's purely coincidental that the two big mistakes for two of the goals were

• 11:03Speaker 00

  both from, obviously one was Mark Gaye and the other was Nico O'Reilly. But I'm not suggesting one minute affected their play, but there must be stuff going through their minds. There must be worried.

• 11:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe as players, there's uncertainty. Of course, you're going to be worried. But going back to the point that you said with the players signing, if Karl Doon says the letter that he wrote in 2023, he's pleading their innocence. So as a, as a player, you know, all you can do is concentrate on your football. That's up to your representatives. And if they'd been given that information, that everything's going to be all right, what more can they do? You know? What more can they do?

• 11:41Speaker 02

  Whatever's going to be thrown at them, whether the appeal or what, I don't know. But it's huge, isn't it? I mean, the ramifications for the football club, for who works at the football club, for the, I mean, the sponsors, everything. It could, I mean, it could, it's huge news, that is. And I mean, everyone is, we're all sat waiting to see what's going to be given to them as a punishment. And I would guess they would appeal. I don't know. But it's just, it's massive. It's so huge, isn't it?

• 12:13Speaker 00

  It's not just for Manchester City. It's also the ramifications for other clubs when they, if they feel like they've been robbed of a tournament win or a Premier League or any ways. As we said, let's wait until it's absolutely official before we go into it in more depth.

• 12:30Speaker 01

  Anyway, before I was rudely interrupted.

• 12:32Speaker 00

  Sorry, Micah, that was my bad.

• 12:34Speaker 01

  Anderson and his growth, to then go from Forest to Man City, and then remember the Community Shield where Arsenal absolutely battered them. And it looked like he was out of his depth. And then to go and the start is had for Man City and then take that into his England performances. It just shows me that he's adaptable, that he is willing to learn and is a top quality player that can only get better.

• 13:00Speaker 00

  He's confident as well, isn't he? He's confident on the ball. He wants the ball a lot. And, you know, I know that sounds daft at most players, but, you know, when the pressure's on as well, you need players that you know that want it and will keep, will keep making themselves available, right?

• 13:15Speaker 02

  No, you're right. I mean, it's easy to play if you're 2-3-4-0 up, aren't you? But it's, it's when it gets a bit sticky, you see your good players who still want to get on the ball. And he without doubt always does that.

• 13:26Speaker 00

  Yeah. Let's take a break there and discuss more of the game when we come back.

• 13:33Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by hotels.com. Booking your next hotel for a work trip or a weekend away to see your team play with hotels.com. Each day brings you closer to rewards. Introducing the all new 10 for 100 from hotels.com. It's exactly what it sounds like. Stay 10 nights, get back £100 in hotels.com cash to use on your next getaway. It's a simple and flexible way to get more value from the trips you are already taking, whether it's a quick trip or something you've been planning for a while. 10 for 100 with hotels.com rewards. It's all in the name. Members 18 plus. Average cost per night in a booking

• 14:15Speaker 00

  must be £75 or more to count excluding taxes, fees and hotels.com cash.

• 14:29Speaker 03

  We are getting a statement from number 10 on that flight with 350 passengers on board.

• 14:38Speaker 04

  The great game, strategic struggle between Britain and Russia.

• 14:45Speaker 05

  We assess, Prime Minister, with high confidence it was Russian.

• 14:51Speaker 00

  Holding the Russians accountable is World War III.

• 14:53Speaker 06

  They took down a British passenger jet containing 350 people.

• 14:56Speaker 04

  Man in the Kremlin is playing, Alex. You've got to ask yourself, do you want to play or not?

• 15:03Speaker 00

  You're the Prime Minister. You've done nothing.

• 15:10Speaker 00

  We would need to understand the policy context.

• 15:12Speaker 04

  All the relevant context will be structured as a framework today and disseminated into an operation order or frago.

• 15:21Speaker 04

  A frago that says to kill the President of Russia. Yes.

• 15:27Speaker 02

  New from Goalhanger. Who is going to be able to pull this off? You're my soldier, are you? Sergeant Tom MacDuff, Duffy. An audio drama journey like no other.

• 15:38Speaker 06

  Men like Duffy, they are our most valuable weapons.

• 15:42Speaker 02

  Devized as a technically rigorous geopolitical action thriller.

• 15:47Speaker 02

  Where Britain plays its strongest iron against its strongest foe.

• 15:54Speaker 02

  Bear Hunt. Available now wherever you get your podcasts.

• 16:12Speaker 00

  Welcome back to the Rest is Football with Micah Richards, Alan Shearer and now our roving reporter from the World Cup, Rob Jones joins us. All right, Rob, how are you? Good, thank you. Yeah, it was, it was nice to be in a stadium not sweating profusely last night watching England compared to all those trips in America. It was a lot, a lot cooler, but a good game nonetheless, I thought. You saw a couple of players after the game. Give us a little insight into the loss, but I think there was a lot to be encouraged by.

• 16:41Speaker 01

  Before you go on the inside, before you go on the inside, guys, are we allowed sponsors on here now? We've been doing it for how many years? It's rocked up with Adidas. Is that allowed?

• 16:51Speaker 00

  And what does that say on your cap, Micah?

• 16:54Speaker 01

  Exactly. What does that say? If you can't see it, that's the whole point.

• 17:00Speaker 00

  Apparently there are different rules for roving reporters. Slightly, yeah. No, I just, you know, I need a deal. I need, I need as many deals as Micah's got. So I'm trying my best with this jacket.

• 17:10Speaker 01

  Well, I've got my George on now.

• 17:13Speaker 00

  Of course you have.

• 17:14Speaker 01

  If you like this, I can send it to the last.

• 17:15Speaker 00

  That's the price.

• 17:21Speaker 01

  Anyway, sorry, I interrupted you, Rob.

• 17:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, you're most welcome, Micah. No, to, to sort of reference something that Thomas Tuchel said in the build-up to the game, it was something that I asked both Harry Kane and Anthony Gordon about last night. And Tuchel said, the vibe in the camp is different and let's not pretend that, that it's the same as the World Cup where there was a lot of hope and a lot of expectation. And I think what he was referring to, which Anthony Gordon basically admitted straight after the game, was that what happened took a lot of getting over and maybe that some of the players are still yet to get over that. Anthony, do you feel that the manager spoke about it being a different mood since the World Cup? Have you had to rise yourself again because of the disappointment of the semi-final and get yourself going for this set of games?

• 18:06Speaker 00

  A little bit because it feels a bit weird being back here so fast. I still, like I said, it took me weeks. I don't know about everyone else. It took me, it took me a good few weeks.

• 18:14Speaker 05

  To get over that trauma in a way of losing the way we did. So it felt weird being back. Obviously, it's a new team with a lot of new players, a lot of the lads who were at the World Cup aren't here. So it's been a bit of a mixed bag, but I don't think you're seeing it out there. I think you're seeing a competitive team, a hungry team. And I think to play like that in the first game back after that crazy summer, I think probably is a testament to our character.

• 18:38Speaker 00

  For both Alan and Gary, you would have been there. Your 96 would have been like that and probably the World Cup too, Alan. And I'm sure Italia 90. So for both of you, how long did it take before you felt that such a disappointment was totally out of your system?

• 18:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think for me, you couldn't wait to get back into the squad. I think because of the pain and the hurt, what went on particularly 96, where we genuinely thought that we were going to win it. But it was just getting back straight onto the pitch, getting back into the team again and trying to erase those. I mean, they're never ever going to go away completely. But trying to, it's like when you've been beaten on a Saturday, you want to play on a Tuesday again. So it's just a matter of getting into the, into these games as quick as possible.

• 19:21Speaker 00

  I think they're also slightly different to this England squad. This England team were going really well, obviously in the tournament. They got to a semi-final, they got to a lead in a game. And then they sort of capitulated. I think they all know that they sat back way too deep and they let Messi have loads of, and they kind of botched it, as my sons would always say, botched it. Whereas I think you in 96 certainly didn't. You're a whisker away. You kept going. You were the better team in that game, probably should have won, I think. Obviously with us in 86, there was the hand of God and the brilliance of Maradona. So it didn't feel like we'd caved in. And likewise in Italia 90, we gave a good account of ourselves in the semi-final. I thought we were marginally

• 20:03Speaker 00

  the better side against Germany. And ultimately, we just lost on it on a penalty shootout. So I think, I think their disappointment is different. I think, you know, people say, what's your biggest regret in football? I think regret's the wrong word, but I think my biggest disappointment was Italia 90 semi-final. I'm sure it's same with you. It's because you, because you're that close from football immortality. But at the same time, we, we didn't let ourselves down. And I think England, albeit some brilliant performances in the World Cup, that's why it will stay with them perhaps a little bit longer because of the way they sort of capitulated in the last half an hour against Argentina.

• 20:44Speaker 02

  Rob, just another question for you is, is because of that, what Gaz has said, was there questioning from the media and from the press both before the game and probably after? Was it, were there any aggressive questions towards Thomas Tuchel?

• 21:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think he's been asked so much about that. And in a way, it was really interesting listening to Micah on Friday's episode, talking about perhaps one of, one of the issues. And it's maybe not as issue, an issue as much for a reporter as it might be for guys who've played and do play the game, about him being too honest. The one point where I'm wondering, are you being honest? Is when he says in the build up to the game, 99% of people are asking me about the Mexico game or talking about that. And that can't be the reality. The reality is surely that, you know, maybe people are too worried to go up to Thomas Tuchel and say to him, what, what did you do in the Argentina game? But and, and that was the other interesting thing about what Harry Kane said last night about the Spain game and said, that's the perfect game for us because we're playing the world

• 21:47Speaker 00

  champions. And I imagine that if you strolled into that and weren't quite at it, you, you could have got absolutely hammered four or five nil last night. Whereas had you turned up to a qualifier against Faroe Islands or San Marino, there's a concern that you just sort of coast your way through that game a little bit and you still feel a little bit flat.

• 22:07Speaker 05

  The way we were without the ball, the pressure we put on them, they made a lot of mistakes. And it doesn't matter who you are, what DNA you've got, if you press with intensity and win the jewels and come out with a ball, you're going to create chances. And that's exactly what happened. Yeah, I think that period, like I said, from probably 20 minutes to 60 minutes, it's what we need to take from it. I spoke about it before the game about in the World Cup, we didn't quite put a 90 minutes together. We still haven't quite put a 90 minutes together, albeit against a very good side tonight. But yeah, when we're in that moment, it's just being, being able to take the bigger moments. And that's probably the difference right now.

• 22:43Speaker 01

  I actually thought England were outstanding yesterday. You know, you was at the game, Rob. Anyone stand out for you? And what, what was the feeling in, in the camp after the game?

• 22:58Speaker 02

  I don't think they were outstanding. I mean, you, you saw the game live, Micah. I think parts of that game were brilliant. I mean, they couldn't have been outstanding and then conceded three goals and a mistake.

• 23:07Speaker 01

  It's weird, it's weird to say. I know, I know it sounds weird, but they were aggressive. You know, all the things that we wanted them to be at the World Cup. There was aggressive, they were brave. Even when it looked like Spain could have been three or four nil, they kept going. And then they started playing through the lines. Then they started pressing a lot higher, forcing Spain into mistakes. And then Bellingham grew into the game. And then Gordon was fearless. And then Lewis Skelly was up and down. Anderson was getting on the ball. So all the things that we wanted to see in the World Cup, which we got in spells, I think out of all the games we've seen England play, apart from the Azteca,

• 23:51Speaker 01

  in terms of their, their greater determination, all the things that we wanted to see were in this game against the world champions. And that's why I said they were outstanding.

• 24:01Speaker 02

  I guess the penalty missed was a big thing and a game changer as well, wasn't it?

• 24:04Speaker 00

  The one thing you would say, to call it a performance that's outstanding, is that there were a couple of very bad individual errors.

• 24:12Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 24:13Speaker 00

  So, you know, you have to say that aside, they were outstanding.

• 24:17Speaker 01

  That aside, but if you look at, and, and, because I always, when I look at a game, I don't just look at the results. I look at, there's, there's so many factors within a game that can give you confidence going forward. And how many times when I was accused in the World Cup of being negative, you know, I'll be negative about, but there was things in the games that I didn't like. And when it come to the moment, all the things I talked about came to fruition. In this game yesterday, all the things that they didn't do in the World Cup, they did against Spain, which give me so much confidence. And that's what I mean by that.

• 24:54Speaker 00

  Well, you're the oracle.

• 24:59Speaker 01

  So anyway, Rob, how was the camp? How was the mood after the game?

• 25:03Speaker 00

  I think that Harry Kane totally agree with the point that all three of you sort of just touched on, that they've not knitted 90 minutes together, particularly against one of the elite teams. That's what Harry Kane said afterwards. And I think that was the point last night, that I think you probably could use the word outstanding for the 20 minutes after half time, where they could have gone three, one up if Harry Kane doesn't slip. The pressing's great. It's when you asked about which players stood out, it's not razor sharp analysis, but Jude Bellingham is some footballer, isn't it? I mean, he just had that game by the scruff of the neck for a little spell after half time. But I think that aggression, whether it be Anderson or Lewis Skelly stepping on to Spain in midfield

• 25:42Speaker 00

  and trying to stop them play. And the feeling I had walking away from it was, I'd rather lose like that than everyone camped on the edge of your own penalty area, just waiting for Lionel Messi to do something special. And, and again, Kane said afterwards, you can have a game where Mark Gea, he doesn't make that error, Nico O'Reilly doesn't give the ball away. And suddenly Harry Kane doesn't slip and you win that game rather than lose it. And they're the margins. You guys know, when you play against the proper elite, it's very tight. One thing you have to say is England have now conceded 13 in their last six games. And the, the back four has moved around a bit, different individuals. It's the one part of the pitch really, isn't it? Where you go, what is England's best back four?

• 26:26Speaker 00

  I think by and large now from midfield forwards, we, we more or less there. But at the back, there is, there are certainly issues. And obviously the goalkeeper's changed as well. I thought Trafford did well. He'd made a couple of good saves. I don't, he wasn't at fault for any of the goals. And he looked confident with the ball at his feet as well. I thought he did really well.

• 26:45Speaker 02

  That was a big call in picking Trafford instead of Pickford, wasn't it? After what Jordan's done and a number of caps and all of that.

• 26:51Speaker 01

  Hey, I did tell you. I did tell you. I did think, no, no, I didn't tell you. I don't think this is the end for Pickford. I just think Trafford, you know, looking forward, you always want to give someone an opportunity, don't you, to see how they fare at the, the highest level under pressure?

• 27:07Speaker 00

  How impressed have you been with James Trafford so far? Because for all the big England games you'll have played, it would have been Jordan Pickford in goal. What have you, you made of him in and around training and big night for him tonight?

• 27:17Speaker 05

  Yeah, he's been great in training. Obviously deserved these chants out there tonight. And I thought he done really well. Made some, some big saves for us. They obviously had some big chances themselves as well, that we, we got away with. He's good with his feet, he plays out well. Yeah. And it's never easy coming into a game of this magnitude as one of your first games. So yeah, credit to him. I thought he handled it really well.

• 27:39Speaker 00

  Obviously Cole Palmer pulled out of the squad and Thomas Tuchel, I thought, he does tend to say what's on his mind and what he thinks. And I just wonder what benefit that would serve. I think Tuchel wanted to make it clear to everyone and he did it, not in a sneaky way, but he, he's basically said he doesn't feel that he really, really wants to play for England. I want players there that are completely dedicated and, and, and then he said, well, he's been injured, but obviously that's not, you know, something. But there's clearly something between that. And I think because he got so much stick

• 28:21Speaker 00

  for not taking Cole Palmer, I think this was his way of telling us why. But I'm not sure that, I don't like it when coaches or managers do that to players, particularly if he's, I mean, I'm sure he's genuinely been carrying an injury for the whole, most of last season. So I thought that was a little bit unfair.

• 28:40Speaker 02

  I think I get it from the manager's point of view because as you said, that there's a lot of discussion of shouldn't you have been in, in this squad? Yeah, he's had a good start to the season. The manager's put him in and for whatever reason, whatever injury, and clearly he wanted to get a point across to say, I'm not 100% certain that you perhaps want it enough. I want players that are massively committed and will run through a brick wall for me. And I think that was his way of saying, I'm not sure about it.

• 29:11Speaker 00

  Can't you pick up a telephone and tell him that though, rather than tell the world?

• 29:15Speaker 02

  Conversation already. Maybe he's said that after, and why put him in the squad? I don't know.

• 29:19Speaker 00

  I think there might have been a feeling from, from England's perspective that because it's this longer break and you, you play, there's almost, well, two and a half weeks between the games. If you've got a slight niggle, you can come and you can still get your treatment at St George's Park or at Spurs where they're training for part of this. And then maybe Cole Palmer could have played in that final game against Czechia on the 6th of October, which is still, what, 10 days away? So there was an option to be in and around the camp. And you looked at, you know, the World Cup, Jordan Henderson gets injured. There was no way he was ever going to go, go home and not be part of the rest of the tournament. So I think there was maybe if, there's no doubt that he is managing a groin injury.

• 30:03Speaker 00

  And I think Cole Palmer doesn't want to be where he was last year where he played a couple, missed a few, played another few. Yeah. But I think there is possibly a feeling that he could have been in and around the camp had he been totally desperate to. I think I'd have understood it slightly more if Cole Palmer had have actually come out and said anything negative in any way. Or said publicly that he was so pissed off he wasn't in the World Cup that I didn't want to be part of this squad. So I don't know, I didn't think it was in time, so.

• 30:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, again, what did I say? Too cool at times, he's too honest, isn't he? And he gives us all something to speak about, which is great, but he doesn't, he doesn't, he doesn't need to. I, I would be on Cole Palmer's side on this occasion, probably because he's, he's been injured, hasn't he? And he's not been up to scratch. He started the season well and he got an international break. Let's be honest, yes, we're building up to the Euros, but he's, he's not right, is he? He's not 100% right. And Chelsea have been trying to manage his, his minutes. Remember last season when he was getting taken off after like 60 minutes and all that sort of stuff? So Robbie Wright, he is obviously nursing still his groin.

• 31:17Speaker 01

  I don't think it needs to be that big of a story because they've got so much players in that, in that position.

• 31:24Speaker 02

  How many times in the match where you started a match, you were 100% fit?

• 31:28Speaker 01

  That's a very good point, but yeah, I think, I think it's different now. I think the players are playing more games. I think the games are more high intense. So when you've got a, a chance to, to deload, then if I was a player of Cole Palmer.

• 31:46Speaker 00

  Declan Rice has done it. And by the way, he was still there watching last night, Declan Rice, which, which again, I think tells you the sort of commitment to the camp. I just wonder though, Micah, whether if you've been left out of the squad, would your attitude as a player not be, well, I want to show you, I want to show you and show everyone that you were totally wrong to leave me out of that squad by being the best player for two or three Nations League games?

• 32:09Speaker 01

  So in 2012, when we won the league, and I always talk down about my career because that's the way I am. I like to self-deprecate, that's the way I am.

• 32:18Speaker 00

  We know you don't mean it though, when you say.

• 32:21Speaker 01

  In that season, I performed really well. I was five or six from fullback, I was strong as a ox, got important goals. The season before I'd won the FA Cup, I was consistent throughout the whole season.

• 32:34Speaker 00

  That's one of the least self-deprecating statements I've ever heard.

• 32:37Speaker 01

  No, I'm building myself up now, I'm not self-deprecating. And then I got a call from Hodgson and says, well, I didn't even get a call from Hodgson. I got a call from Stuart Pearce, who was the manager at Man City. And he said, oh, you're not going to be in the squad. Bear in mind, the fullback got injured, I think it was Glenn Johnson or Kyle Walker got injured or whatever. So there's only one fullback going to the tournament at the time. So he asked me to go on standby. At the same conversation with Stuart Pearce, he said, I'm going to the Olympics, would you want to go to the Olympics? And then I got trashed through the media saying, I've turned my back on my country. I didn't turn my back on my country. I wanted to go play where I was, where I was loved in, in, in the Olympics. And it was the best experience of, of my life.

• 33:20Speaker 01

  So I, I'm with Cole Palmer on this. If you're not 100% fit and you've got a manager who doesn't believe in you, then take the rest.

• 33:29Speaker 00

  I wouldn't disagree. Before, before we go, let's talk Spain. Unbeaten in 39 games now. World Cup, European champions. Is it, is it as good as the Spain team of eight, 10, 12?

• 33:43Speaker 01

  Ooh, I'm not sure.

• 33:44Speaker 00

  I'm not sure. I mean, they have, I mean, the last couple of decades, I mean, the teams they've produced.

• 33:50Speaker 01

  What was that, the Busquets, Xavi?

• 33:52Speaker 00

  Busquets, Iniesta.

• 33:53Speaker 01

  Oh my God.

• 33:54Speaker 00

  Cesc Fabregas, David Villa.

• 33:57Speaker 01

  David Villa, oh my God, no, you can't, you can't beat that, you can't beat that midfield.

• 34:03Speaker 02

  It's ridiculous though, at this, at that level, to go unbeaten, that many games against the quality they're going up against is remarkable.

• 34:13Speaker 00

  The other, the other thing I liked about last night is we've, you've talked about all, all the flair players, Lamal and, and Williams and Pedri. They've got a little bit of devil in them as well. Mark, Mark Cucurella, even though now he's, he's club teammates with Jude Bellingham. And once he left him on the floor and they were chuntering at each other as Jude ran back across the pitch. And I think you, you guys would know that to have a successful team, you can't just have the flair and the quality on the ball. You need the horrible side of the game and they've, they've got a little bit of that about them as well.

• 34:42Speaker 01

  You're totally right. And I think Al was right to raise the point defensively. So when you say outstanding, okay, outstanding moments within the game, what I like to see. But Spain could have had four or five or six.

• 34:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:54Speaker 01

  You know, the way they move the ball, the timing of the pass, the weight of the pass, the timing of the runs from Torres and then Ayatollah. Don't get it right, Gas. Ayatollah. Yeah, oh my, his finish is, is that saucy dad? He's that saucy dad. And Spain, what they're producing, it's not normal. Then Pedri comes on and flicks the ball around the corner. Then we've got Fabian Ruiz who goes off, yeah, no, no problem at all. Just wins the Champions League the last two years. It's, it's, their, their, their squad is incredible.

• 35:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, since 2008, that's five major trophies they've now won. Prior to that, they'd only won one in 1964. And I think that the European Championship, where there are only about four teams in it. So that, I mean, Spanish football has, has come a long way. Even when I played in my time, and obviously I spent three years in Spain and they, that wasn't their way of playing back then, right? That, it wasn't, that's kind of been reinvented because of probably with the improvement of playing surfaces and, and stuff over the years. But, you know, it all came in around, well, probably a Dutchman started it in many ways at, at Barcelona. And then this has become their way of, of playing. But I mean, I could, I could, I could watch them all day.

• 36:13Speaker 00

  And I mean, Lamine Yamal, I know he didn't have his best shooting boots on, but boy, oh boy, a couple of the bits that he did. I mean, a couple of the passes through and the, the little finish for his first goal and that little kind of back heely thing that he, he did. Oh, it was tasty, that was.

• 36:31Speaker 01

  That was tasty. It's his drop of his shoulder, isn't it?

• 36:34Speaker 00

  I wanted to see five replays of that. It gets, frustrates me when, you know, you get in nowadays and this, not match directors and it's, they do a brilliant job generally, but you know.

• 36:44Speaker 01

  They do, they do, they do a brilliant job, but he's about to slaughter them.

• 36:48Speaker 00

  No, I'm not slaughtering them at all, but this is right across the board, right? So every single free kick, every foul, however soft, gets a replay. A little bit of skill on the halfway line never gets a replay. And it, I know, go, I want to see that again, I want to see that again. I don't want to see a foul again. It's like, it's just one of the things that's crept into, into the coverage of our football, which irritates me a little bit, but they all do it, everyone, it's right across the board. So maybe there's a little message out there. If you see a breathtaking little bit of magic from someone like Lamine Yamal, we want to see it three or four times.

• 37:25Speaker 02

  Are we letting him get away with that, Mencin? He used to play for Barcelona again, Micah.

• 37:29Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, I, I was, I didn't want to interrupt him, he was in flow, wasn't he? But he couldn't wait to get it in, he couldn't wait to get it in.

• 37:36Speaker 00

  I'd, I'd almost forgotten actually.

• 37:41Speaker 00

  I mean, look how young that team is as well, the Spanish team. I mean, they are going to be the side to beat over the next 10 years, probably.

• 37:49Speaker 02

  Totally, you're absolutely right, yeah.

• 37:51Speaker 01

  You're forgetting the other player though, Fermin Lopez.

• 37:54Speaker 00

  Oh, Lopez is good, yeah.

• 37:56Speaker 01

  We didn't even get on yesterday what a player he is. You've got Hoysen or Howson, however you pronounce him. Even David Rea doesn't play.

• 38:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, Pedri comes on at 70 minutes.

• 38:07Speaker 01

  Baena comes on and it's just, it's not, it's not fair, is it? It's not fair.

• 38:12Speaker 00

  Well, I mean, England have not got a bad squad as well. They've got lots of talent coming through, but I think Spain definitely going to be the side to beat. Just one question before we go for you, Rob. You know, at the end, when you, you're obviously in the, in what do they call it, the mix zone? Mix zone of players. Do you also, is that just for England or do you get to chance to speak to any, any of the opposition, the opposing players? No, the, the Spanish players came through as well last night. So was the chance, Ayatollah was, was one of those who stopped an ad chat. The Spanish media were, were there on, on mass. We were sort of tucked in and, and waiting for the England players. And if you, if you move to get a Spanish player, you probably lose, lose your seat and miss out on a Harry Kane or an Anthony Gordon. But no, it is, it's a, it's a big old area and English journalists one end and then all the Spanish at, at other.

• 38:57Speaker 00

  And is everyone shouting questions out? Is that, I'm just not sure, I, I can't remember from, it wasn't like that when I played. It's a little bit more structured. When I played at Barcelona.

• 39:07Speaker 00

  It's a little bit more structured than it used to be. Or I have to say, there was, there was one time in, in Kansas City during the World Cup where the Argentinians had an off day. So all their journalists came on mass to ask questions to, I think it was Bukayo Saka and Nico O'Reilly that day, as England were preparing for the quarter final against Norway. Argentina hadn't even got through their own quarter final yet and they're already asking them questions about a potential semi-final. And poor Nico O'Reilly is quite young, quite shy. And I think, look, bless him, like a bit of a rabbit in headlights, but the Argentinians didn't mind, they were there and they were playing with their elbows out, as they did on the pitch for most of that World Cup, actually.

• 39:44Speaker 01

  While we're on that though, first interviews, I've seen an interview of you the other day, Alan. I don't know if it was AI or not, but you, it was, it was hilarious.

• 39:54Speaker 02

  Why, just because I had a bit of hair?

• 39:58Speaker 01

  That was funny too, but you were so softly spoken back then.

• 40:03Speaker 02

  Are you saying that's changed over the years?

• 40:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, he was less angry, I would say.

• 40:10Speaker 01

  So softly spoken, so articulate, so shy but engaging. And now you're just.

• 40:17Speaker 00

  A bellend.

• 40:20Speaker 02

  It's AI, definitely.

• 40:23Speaker 00

  Must have been AI. Oh dear.

• 40:25Speaker 01

  Do you remember your first interview, Gas, before we go? I remember mine, obviously mine was when I swore, wasn't it? Everyone remembers that.

• 40:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, I was, I sounded a bit squeaky, a bit posh.

• 40:35Speaker 01

  Did you?

• 40:36Speaker 00

  I don't, I don't know why I spoke, I spoke a little bit like that. It was so weird. I listen to them now, I go, oh my God. So different with a bit of Leicester accent as well, a lot of Leicester accent, which has drifted away over the years. Um, okay, let's call it a day there. That's it for this episode of The Rest Is Football. Goodbye from me.

• 40:57Speaker 01

  Goodbye from me.

• 40:58Speaker 02

  Goodbye from me. Have a great week, everyone.

• 41:00Speaker 00

  Goodbye from me.

• 41:01Speaker 01

  Hold on, you're not supposed to do that, that's not how it goes. Well, there's four of us. Rob, Robbie's the one that said, have a great week, everyone. Come on, shall we go again, please?

• 41:09Speaker 00

  Let's, let's do it again, let's do it again. Shall I go third then and Alan can go last and do his trademark? All right, okay.

• 41:17Speaker 01

  Oh, well, I've got, I've got to work on how I say goodbye from me, that it, it's not the same. It's sort of, I, I get it up for Alan to finish, so go on, go on, Gas.

• 41:26Speaker 00

  This is the least smooth closing ever on Netflix, ever.

• 41:32Speaker 01

  Goodbye from me. Goodbye from me.

• 41:35Speaker 00

  Goodbye from me.

• 41:36Speaker 02

  Goodbye from me. Have a great week, everyone.