Pod Insights The Moth I Survived the Unsurvivable | From A Slight Change of Plans About this episode At age nine, poet Javier Zamora began a harrowing 3,000-mile journey from El Salvador to the United States. More than twenty years later, he shared his story, revisiting the fear, endurance, and quiet courage he experienced as a child navigating an unimaginable change. This episode is from A Slight Change of Plans, hosted by cognitive scientist and bestselling author Dr. Maya Shankar. On A Slight Change of Plans, Maya explores how we experience change and provides strategies we can use to better navigate moments of upheaval. Whether it’s a sudden pivot or a slow transformation, each episode reveals how change can give us an opportunity to reimagine who we are and unlock greater possibility. Find A Slight Change of Plans wherever you get podcasts lnk.to/SCPMoth.
Transcript 0:02 Speaker 00 Hey listeners. If you come to The Moth for heartfelt, interesting stories that you can really sit with and learn from, this episode from our friends at A Slight Change of Plans will feel familiar. At age nine, poet Javier Zamora began a harrowing 3,000-mile journey from El Salvador to the United States. More than 20 years later, he shared his story, one of loneliness, anxiety, and resilience, revisiting what it took to survive such difficult circumstances and the struggles he still grapples with today. With the same heart and vulnerability that Moth listeners love, Zamora revisits fear, endurance, and the quiet courage of a child, navigating an unimaginable change. Like The Moth, A Slight Change of
0:43 Speaker 00 Plans is all about our shared experiences and how they shape us. It's hosted by Dr. Maya Shankar, a cognitive behavioral scientist and bestselling author, who explores who we become in the face of change, how we can better navigate moments of upheaval, and why change might just give us an opportunity to unlock great possibilities. Enjoy this episode. If you like what you hear, find A Slight Change of Plans wherever you get your podcasts.
1:18 Speaker 01 I know how to act in a way. I know to grow up, and I know how to make myself small, so these individuals won't think of me as an annoying little kid, and so that they would love me and take care of me. Like, "Oh my God, please, please love me, and please like me, and please take care of me, because if you don't, then I don't know what I'm gonna have to do."
1:46 Speaker 00 That's Javier Zamora, who at age nine left his childhood home in El Salvador to reunite with his parents in the US. Javier is describing his approach to winning over the other immigrants who were also on this dangerous 3,000-mile journey to the US border. It's been more than 20 years since that experience, and Javier has finally decided to revisit his childhood in a memoir called Solito. In reflecting on his past, Javier realized he needed to update his understanding of his nine-year-old self.
2:20 Speaker 01 In looking at this kid, I also realized that I was treating him how politicians and the news outlets treat immigrants. He had committed a crime. He is somebody that doesn't belong in this society. He's an outsider. And slowly, I was like, no, hold up. This kid is a G. He's a gangster. He really knew how to survive. Rarely, rarely have I heard that term survivor be attached to immigrants.
3:01 Speaker 02 On today's show, Javier Zamora looks back on his harrowing immigration journey.
3:11 Speaker 02 I'm Maya Shankar, and this is A Slight Change of Plans, a show about who we are and who we become in the face of a big change.
3:27 Speaker 02 In his memoir, Javier writes from the perspective of his nine-year-old self. For our conversation today, I was eager to hear how 32-year-old Javier reflects back on his experiences as a young child. In particular, I was curious about his relationship with loneliness and how it ebbed and flowed as he made his way to the US. But first, I asked Javier to share a summary of his immigration story to help us better understand what made his journey so treacherous and his survival so extraordinary.
3:59 Speaker 01 I was born in a small fishing village in El Salvador in 1990, in the middle of a civil war. And my dad fled that war in 1991, when I was still one years old. And my mom left when I was five in 1995. And they left me at the care of my grandparents and my aunts. And at first, my parents promised that they were gonna come back. But then, around the time when I turned seven, I started hearing the word "trip" a lot. And it became clear that I would be trying to get to the US as well in order to be reunited with them. And so they decided to use the same coyote
4:43 Speaker 01 that helped my mom get to the United States in 1995. And the coyote is like a smuggler. And he was with my mom every single step of the way, and her trip was relatively safe and fast. It took her two weeks. So at age nine, I leave my hometown with my grandpa to go and meet the coyote, who has six other people that he's also bringing along with me. And we make it safely from El Salvador to a town in Guatemala where we stay for two weeks. After the two weeks, my grandpa has to leave. And so now, truly for the first time, alone, or solito. And from that border town,
5:26 Speaker 01 we go to another border town in Guatemala on the coast. And we get on a boat. And we take a 22-hour boat ride to somewhere on the Mexican coastline. Fast forward from there, we take multiple bus rides, warehouses that were locked in. There are bribes. We get pulled out of buses by Mexican immigration cops. After five weeks, we make it to the US-Mexican border. So that's the northern desert. And it is there that we make three attempts to make it across the border. And during these attempts, I get apprehended by border patrol agents twice. We get chased by helicopters twice. I'm in a detention cell.
6:10 Speaker 01 And I literally almost died during each of my attempts. And I have guns pointed at me multiple times. And it's not until weeks later that I make it across the border successfully and I'm finally reunited with my parents.
6:30 Speaker 02 Thank you for sharing that. So Javier, I would love to start off by talking about your experience as a five-year-old in El Salvador. Your mom fled to the US, as you mentioned, at this very formative time in your development, and she left you under the care of your grandparents and your aunts. And I'm curious to know what this transition was like for you, what impact it had on you.
6:55 Speaker 01 Hmm.
6:57 Speaker 01 Well, you know, one of my first memories is my third birthday. And in my third birthday, I remember being this loud, very extroverted child. And I think it was because of my mom. My mom made sure that I would be the kid that volunteers for everything at school. She would take me with her every time, in the morning where she went to the mercado or the local market, and in the afternoons. And there was this popular song, there was this dance called sa sa sapo. And everybody in town, when I was two and three, would ask me, all the vendors would ask me to dance.
7:41 Speaker 01 And that carried over into preschool and kindergarten. And so for every Mother's Day and Father's Day celebration, every assembly, I would be the kid who performs in front of people.
7:55 Speaker 02 Yeah.
7:55 Speaker 01 And so I was very extroverted, and everybody knew me, I knew everybody. And then she leaves when I'm five, in the middle of first grade. And from then on, I'm no longer on this stage. I never volunteer for a talent show again. And I'm very quiet, and I rarely raise my hand to answer a question. And so my personality truly changed. And she also leaves during a very formative year for me, that she was potty-training me. And she leaves in the middle of it.
8:39 Speaker 01 I never graduate onto the adult toilet.
8:45 Speaker 01 It's like something that I refused to learn. And I think I refused to learn, not because I wasn't intelligent, but because I think it reminded me of my mom.
8:57 Speaker 02 Do you think that also explains the shift from extroversion to introversion? Because what I'm hearing you say is that being extroverted was inextricably linked to your mom. She was the one who brought you to the markets. She was the one who made sure you were volunteering. And so in part, do you feel like you retreated from that way of being? Because it was too sad to be reminded of those memories?
9:21 Speaker 01 Absolutely. What just flashed in my mind was my mom, she would choreograph these dances. As I would like sing along or pretend to sing along. It was lip syncing, but she would teach me. We would make a costume together and then she would teach me a dance. And so all those things, yes, you're absolutely correct. It was too hurtful to do the things that I would do with my mom. Because it would mean that I would acknowledge that she was no longer next to me and that she was no longer with me.
9:54 Speaker 02 Wow, okay. When you left for your trip to the US, and of course, it's uncertain how long this trip will be and what it will look like. As you mentioned, your grandfather traveled with you as far as he could go before he had to return to El Salvador. And then you were truly left alone with a group of strangers who would be accompanying you on the rest of your journey. And this group included a woman named Patricia and her daughter Carla, and also a man named Chino. And you're nine Javier, so I want to know, how did you respond to suddenly being in a group of just strangers?
10:33 Speaker 01 I think going back to when I was five, I learned to grow up. I learned to be an adult. Like my dad was gone. I never missed him because he was never there to begin with. Who I did miss was my mom. And once she left, part of me becoming introverted also got coupled with trying to behave and be a good kid. So the adults around me wouldn't leave me ever again.
11:07 Speaker 01 And as a little kid, I remember always trying to do my best to fold my clothes, to wash the dishes, to eat everything on the plate, just so I wouldn't disappoint them. And so my training for this trip didn't start weeks before. I think it started the moment that my mom left.
11:29 Speaker 02 I see.
11:30 Speaker 01 Because I'd behaved so well that I didn't want to bother my grandma and my aunts, who were my dominant caretakers. And acting like this helped me once my grandpa was gone. But he leaves me with these strangers. I know how to act in a way. I know to grow up and I know how to make myself small. So these individuals will, won't think of me as an annoying little kid. And so that they would love me and take care of me. And so it was like, oh, my God, please, please love me and please like me and please take care of me.
12:15 Speaker 01 Because if you don't, then I don't know what I'm gonna have to do.
12:19 Speaker 02 Yeah.
12:19 Speaker 01 And that was the constant everyday life for, for me on this trip.
12:25 Speaker 02 I want to unpack the conclusion you drew as a five-year-old about how you needed to be in order for people to stay with you, to not leave you, which was I have to be this good kid. I can't misbehave. I cannot do anything bad. I need to be an adult. Did you feel that your mom had left you because you were not a sufficiently good kid? I mean, had it ever been explained to you why she was leaving?
12:51 Speaker 01 Well, um, I'm just beginning to unpack that now.
12:57 Speaker 02 Wow, okay.
12:58 Speaker 01 But yes, the short answer is yes. I internalized her leaving. And I, I made it my fault as a little kid. I thought that I had done something wrong for her to leave. And then I heard about this other individual, my dad, who I only talk to on the phone. And as a little kid, I, like kids do, my whole world was just me and the people around me. And so all these people must see something in me. That I don't see and I am the reason why they keep leaving. And that just saying that out loud has taken me years.
13:44 Speaker 01 And so this is like a self almost hatred that was planted in me from that age caused by my mom's departure. Because why, why are these people leaving? Why is the person that's supposed to take care of me and love me, my mother? Why is she gone? As a little kid, I have no context for a war, poverty, all these push factors, the violence that was increasing. So I had no context for that. The only context that I have is my mother's love.
14:17 Speaker 02 I see. So let's return to your trip Javier. You're alone with this group of strangers and you're being extremely careful to be as well behaved as possible. But some of the men in the group, they decide to play a joke on you. And this results in a turning point in your journey emotionally. And it begins when the men send you on a fool's errand. They tell you to fetch powdered gasoline from a nearby store, which is not actually an item that exists. And a local shopkeeper ends up laughing in your face when you make this request. And you're, you know, you're very embarrassed. I'm wondering if you can tell us what happens next?
14:57 Speaker 01 So this was the fourth shop that I enter in this small coastal village. And nobody, everybody just pretended went along with it until this shop owner. And her laughter just felt like an arrow right at my heart and my head. Because on top of being this well behaved kid, I tried to be liked by being really good at school. And I prided myself in being the most intelligent. I was the valedictorian. I won first place every single year. And so here was the valedictorian of this Salvadoran town in fourth grade being tricked.
15:44 Speaker 01 By the adults. So it reduced my ego. And this is like three days into being truly by myself. And I didn't allow myself to cry because that's what little annoying kids do. I'm not a little annoying kid, I'm an adult.
16:02 Speaker 02 Yeah.
16:03 Speaker 01 And if I cry, people are not gonna like me. So it just broke me down. And I just start crying. And I run back to my room that I share with Patricia, the mom and her daughter. And I tell her what happened. And Patricia being Patricia, a small Salvador woman who is a fighter. She just grabs me by my hand and takes me to the men who are still smoking. They always, they were constantly smoking. And she screams at them and tells them, why did you do this? Like, why are you picking on this kid? Like, you know? And they're like, oh, no, no, it's a joke. Calm down, calm down.
16:46 Speaker 01 And eventually, after she stopped screaming and they apologized, she makes them apologize to me. And then they asked me to stay behind. And she looks at me and I'm like, it's okay. And then she goes back to the room. And it is there with the man that they explained to me that this is the right of passage, that somebody has done it to them. And they tell me, oh, you're, you're a grown up now. You're an adult. And after saying this, they offer me a cigarette. And it is the first time that I have a cigarette and I just start coughing. And so all of that, being lied to, being broken down. Patricia helping me and standing up for me. And then being inducted into the men's club.
17:31 Speaker 01 What that situation did for me is it weirdly made me more comfortable around the men. And it made me closer to them and it made me feel that I was actually an adult. And that I could undertake anything that was gonna happen on this trip. Because I wasn't a normal nine-year-old kid.
17:54 Speaker 02 How did Patricia coming to your defense change your relationship with her and how you saw her? And how you saw yourself? Because, you know, she is a mom. She's a mom in your environment.
18:06 Speaker 01 Um, when she stood up for me, I knew that she liked me. I wouldn't go as far as saying that she loved me, but I knew that she liked me more than any of the other strangers.
18:18 Speaker 02 Hmm.
18:19 Speaker 01 And what that did for me is that I began to trust her more and more.
18:24 Speaker 02 Hmm.
18:25 Speaker 01 And I knew that I could count on her. I knew that when we were walking in town, that I could walk next to her. I didn't have to walk by myself or behind everybody or walk next to the coyote, but I walked next to her. And internally, I think that I began to see her as a mom.
18:48 Speaker 02 Hmm.
18:48 Speaker 01 And it's weird that she had the exact same name as my mom, Patricia, as my real mom. And her temperament was very similar to my mom's as well.
19:00 Speaker 02 Hmm.
19:01 Speaker 01 And I think in hindsight, those two things, subconsciously, made me gravitate towards her.
19:09 Speaker 02 Yeah.
19:10 Speaker 01 And I slowly also won her over and she won me over as well.
19:18 Speaker 02 You said you noticed that you were starting to trust her, which is a very big deal in the life of young Javier.
19:25 Speaker 01 Mm hmm.
19:25 Speaker 02 And your constant fear of abandonment, I think, speaks to that. Did this episode with Patricia and that growing trust lead you to come out of your shell a bit more and maybe tap into some of the extroversion you had shown as a young child but had hid away because it was just too painful?
19:45 Speaker 01 A little bit. I, I don't think I allowed myself to go back to the extroversion.
19:54 Speaker 02 It was too risky.
19:56 Speaker 01 It was too risky.
19:57 Speaker 02 Yeah.
19:57 Speaker 01 The closest I came to that was induced by Patricia.
20:02 Speaker 02 Tell me about that.
20:04 Speaker 01 We're in another room and she starts farting in front of me. And then I'm like, oh, my God, an adult farted in front of me. That takes a lot of trust.
20:14 Speaker 03 Yeah.
20:14 Speaker 01 And that is something that I never did with my mom, but something that I had done with my aunt. And it took us years to get to that trust level. And here is this stranger, Patricia, who I'm getting closer and closer with as the days go on. She just lets it rip. And then I let it rip. And we have this beautiful, stinky moment. And that takes trust.
20:36 Speaker 03 Yeah.
20:37 Speaker 01 And so that is the epitome of my extroversion. But that's it. I'm still very afraid that if I act out, even she will leave because my mom has left. You know, so anybody could leave.
20:56 Speaker 02 We'll be back in a moment with a slight change of plans.
21:10 Speaker 02 From what I read in your memoir, it seems like the trust between you and others in your group really did ebb and flow over the course of your nine-week journey. You know, you would take a few steps forward, then many steps back, and then more steps forward and many steps back. Do you remember any defining moments in which you became more trusting of the people in your group? Any other stories or scenes you can paint for us?
21:33 Speaker 01 So I think the cigarette scene was when I learned to trust Patricia. When I learned to trust the person that I trusted the second most or at times the most, became this individual named Chino. The men, all they did was chain smoke and drink and watch TV. And Chino was the youngest of the three. Chino was around nineteen or twenty. And I learned that he liked me, and I learned that I could trust him on this boat. So we're in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, and it's completely dark, and it's already night. We got on the boat at dawn, around 5:00 AM. And this must have been around like 10:00 PM, 11:00 PM.
22:18 Speaker 01 And it's very, very cold. And all I have is this little thin jacket, and I'm shivering. And Patricia has a jacket and her daughter also has a thin jacket, but she puts her daughter inside. And then she also tried to put me on top of her daughter. All three of us huddled together and it's not working. The zipper is not zipping up, so the wind is still coming at me and it feels like I'm in like the Arctic Ocean. And Chino is sitting across from us and he sees this and everybody is seeing this woman struggle, but nobody offers to help, not even the other men in the group. But Chino is like, hey Javier, do you wanna come over here? Like, I can cover you.
23:03 Speaker 02 With his jacket?
23:05 Speaker 01 With his jacket. And I kinda look up at Patricia, who I trust. We have this bond now and she gives me the okay. And I'm like, okay. And I walk across the boat. Chino opens his jacket and I put my arms where his arms go, in his sleeves. And he sips it up and he's just hugging me and trying to warm me up because we're both extremely cold. And from then on, I learned that he cares. But again, our relationship has its own flows. I knew that he changed when he was only with the adults. He was probably trying to be a man or trying to impress these older men.
23:47 Speaker 01 So in him trying to impress the man, he forgot about me. And he wouldn't really talk to me. He would be different.
23:55 Speaker 02 So when he tried to embody this more manly role, it came at the expense of a trusting relationship with you.
24:01 Speaker 01 Yeah. And I don't know, in a very patriarchal machista way, like a man is not supposed to take care of a little kid. And yet this young man was, and the older men would tease him too. They were like, oh, what are you, this kid's mom? And that is, I guess, not a thing that men should do. And yet Chino, Chino would and did.
24:24 Speaker 02 There's also this moment when you are both in a detention center where Chino really steps up as this surrogate father figure and helps you use the restroom.
24:35 Speaker 01 You know, using the bathroom on this trip was the biggest fear that I had. My grandpa in Guatemala in those two weeks, he took it upon himself to really teach me to trust that I wasn't gonna get flushed out into the ocean if I flushed the toilet.
24:52 Speaker 02 So you were worried it would suck you in?
24:54 Speaker 01 Yeah, that was a complete fear and I didn't know how to swim. So I was like, if I'm flushed down the toilet and I'm in the ocean, I'm gonna die. And then, once my grandpa leaves, I could do that privately. But peeing in warehouses and eventually peeing in a detention cell in front of all these other adult men with adult-sized penises became this fearful thing and I learned to like keep my pee inside as long as possible. And I was in detention for forty-eight hours, so at one point, I had to pee.
25:31 Speaker 02 Yeah.
25:32 Speaker 01 And it is Chino who steps up. He pretty much becomes the curtain, so all the other people won't see me pee. And he does this repeatedly. I think it's, it's telling that it's, that it's him, the pseudo-father, who's really taking care of me.
25:55 Speaker 02 There's this very stirring moment that you describe in your book, in which after these three attempts, you successfully make it across the US-Mexico border. And there's this feeling where trust is at an all-time high. There's such unbridled joy and happiness, actually finally making it to your destination. But then, it's accompanied by a massive heartbreak because you realize that all these people you've grown close to over the last nine weeks are going to be living on the opposite side of the US from you. And as you're forced to say goodbye to Patricia, Carla and Chino, you realize for the first time just how much your relationship has shifted with them over the last nine weeks.
26:40 Speaker 01 The moment that I have to say goodbye to them, you know, we have already made it. We're somewhere in a warehouse in Tucson. And we are not alone. The four of us are part of this group of thirty immigrants who have just successfully crossed the border. And not only that, more and more vans keep coming. So at one point, this two-bedroom apartment in Tucson is filled with, I want to say, over a hundred people. And it smells bad.
27:11 Speaker 01 And in this whole commotion of people coming and going, we, Patricia, Chino, and Carla have to say goodbye. And it didn't click to me or in my brain that we... Like, I knew that the US was big geographically. I thought that we were gonna at least be like an hour away from each other. But they're in DC and I'm going to San Francisco. And them describing that they still have like a three-day car ride left, I'm like, oh, my God. You are going really far. This goodbye is the goodbye that still makes me break down whenever I think about it.
27:56 Speaker 01 Because I still remember huddling in this dirty carpet in the middle of all these strangers and all of us crying because they were gonna say goodbye to this kid and I was gonna say goodbye to these family members. You know, they started as strangers and they became family. In that goodbye, in that warehouse, I realized because they were family that I loved them. And I knew that they loved me, too.
28:34 Speaker 01 And I knew that I wasn't gonna see them as much. And I didn't know that it was gonna be forever. And so I haven't seen them since then. And I think every time I didn't allow myself to remember that. And whenever I do remember it, I get teary eyed. Because this was it. This was the goodbye. And they are the only people that know exactly every little thing that occurred. Even the unimaginable things that you would think I am making up. They are the only ones that know that that truly happened. And they witnessed it with me.
29:19 Speaker 01 And they were there every single step of the way. Even when we almost died in the desert, when we didn't have water. And even when this Arizona rancher pointed a shotgun at all of us. They were there and they know it all.
29:35 Speaker 01 I think that's why it hurt. And that's why it hurts to even remember that. And here, I think what kept me from writing this memoir for 20 years was that these individuals that I had learned to trust and that I had learned to love and that loved me in the worst of conditions were gone. And I think that five year old came back. And by that, I mean that I probably blamed myself. I blamed myself that I was the reason why they didn't stay in touch and that I was the reason why they were gone.
30:15 Speaker 01 And of course, I don't know what their life was like. I don't know what they were coming to here. But I do know that after two weeks, we stayed in touch for not two weeks, like a few weeks. But then they stopped calling. And as a nine year old, I blamed myself again. So, I don't know.
30:36 Speaker 02 And when you tried to call them, you were not successful?
30:41 Speaker 01 They changed their number. And but we didn't change ours.
30:46 Speaker 02 Yeah.
30:47 Speaker 01 Yeah.
30:48 Speaker 02 So you felt abandoned again?
30:49 Speaker 01 I felt abandoned again, yeah.
30:53 Speaker 01 Even though when it mattered, they never abandoned me.
30:56 Speaker 02 Yeah.
30:59 Speaker 02 From what I understand,
31:02 Speaker 02 trying to get back in touch with Patricia Carlin Chino was a huge motivation for you to write this memoir in the first place, to revisit your traumatic past in so much detail after pushing it away for so many years. And curious to know if you are given the chance through this book to reconnect with them, what would you want to share with them in that conversation?
31:30 Speaker 01 That I still love them. And that here is the nine-year-old stranger kid that they didn't know me, that they helped. And they chose to help. They didn't have to. And that that kid has grown up. And this is the one way that I know to thank them. You know, the book is dedicated to them for a reason. I am indebted to them for life and for my life. And I just want them to know that I am very, very, very, very, very grateful. And
32:07 Speaker 01 yeah, that I still love them and thank you.
32:17 Speaker 01 Yeah.
32:19 Speaker 02 Yeah. Um, how would you explain why it is you kept these memories buried for so long? What were you running away from?
32:33 Speaker 01 I was running away from myself. Meaning that if I looked at this nine-year-old kid, it explains a lot of how I act now as an adult. And so if I look at him, I would be looking at myself, and that is too much.
32:53 Speaker 02 What's striking me in this conversation Javier is that you were left alone so many times in your childhood. But what we know from the science of loneliness is that it's actually establishing a strong and loving relationship with yourself. That is a prerequisite for staving off loneliness. It's a prerequisite for being able to feel connection with others. And I heard you talk in the beginning of this conversation about self hatred. And it seems like that's the real demon that you've been fighting. Is that right?
33:30 Speaker 01 Absolutely.
33:34 Speaker 01 Yeah.
33:38 Speaker 01 I have this deep seated hatred of myself and what I need to know and learn is to love myself.
33:46 Speaker 02 Yeah.
33:46 Speaker 01 Love who I am. And my wife reminds me of this every single day. God bless her, but I still don't believe it.
33:55 Speaker 02 Yeah.
33:56 Speaker 01 And I think you're 100% correct that
34:00 Speaker 01 if I don't love myself, it makes the loneliness last longer. And it's like I'm addicted to that loneliness because I've been alone for so long. But if I learn to love myself, I won't be because now I would have a relationship with myself.
34:14 Speaker 02 Yeah.
34:15 Speaker 01 Yeah.
34:17 Speaker 02 Yeah, I I've felt that self hatred too. I think so many of us have and oh gosh, in your case, what I feel is it is such an unfounded dislike of this little boy that I see is a hero, is a brilliant, strategic, loving little hero. And so it just feels so irrational, right? That you would you would not love that little boy. But gosh, this is a big question, but it's kind of like, what has worked for you in terms of learning to love yourself and to unwind some of those negative thought patterns?
34:53 Speaker 01 You know,
34:57 Speaker 01 in the process of writing this book, I would have these very vivid dreams where I was back on the route. I was back somewhere sometime during those nine weeks. And in the writing of this, in the facing it almost every day, I learned to view the kid as how you just described them as a superhero. For 20 years, from the ages of nine till 29, I saw this kid as this helpless pushover who put people at risk. And so I was blaming him and hating him for having done what he did.
35:35 Speaker 02 Sorry, let me, tell me what you mean by done what he did. What did you do?
35:44 Speaker 01 By that, I mean that he immigrated by himself.
35:49 Speaker 02 And that was on you?
35:51 Speaker 01 And that was on me, and I blamed them.
35:56 Speaker 01 Because, you know, why would you do this?
35:59 Speaker 02 And I guess that traces back to, none of this would have happened if I had been more lovable and my mom had stuck around and I had given her a greater reason to stay.
36:08 Speaker 01 Yeah, it goes back to that.
36:10 Speaker 02 Gosh, okay.
36:12 Speaker 01 And so you blame yourself even though you're a nine-year-old kid.
36:15 Speaker 02 Yeah.
36:16 Speaker 01 And
36:22 Speaker 01 and
36:26 Speaker 01 in the looking at this kid, I also realized that I was treating him how politicians and the news outlets treat immigrants. So I was believing them. And that also affected how I viewed my nine-year-old self. He had committed a crime. He was taking resources that are not his. He is a pushover. He is a, I don't know, somebody that doesn't belong in this society. He's an outsider. All these negative terms that I have completely internalized. And slowly, I was like, no, hold up.
37:12 Speaker 01 This kid is a G. He's a gangster. He survived the unsurvivable. Yeah. He really knew how to survive. Rarely, rarely have I heard that term survivor be attached to immigrants. You know, you're refugee a lot. But it's unpacked that these refugees have survived something. And these immigrants have survived the thousands of miles as they cross Mexico. And they've survived the desert. And, and using that term and claiming that term has really unpacked a lot of things for me.
37:55 Speaker 01 To the point that I'm like, wow, this kid is a superhero. He has so many skills and he made it. And that gave me agency. And having that agency is the beginning of learning to love myself. Yeah. I'm not there yet. And when you said that, one thing that my wife just recently made me do.
38:17 Speaker 01 She made me tell myself in front of a mirror that I love myself. She's like, just do it 25 times. And I couldn't do it. And this is after I wrote the book. This was like a few weeks ago. I couldn't do it. Yeah. I, I started crying. And that's even after having finished this, that's still where I'm at. Yeah. Although she doesn't know this. But I've been on the road and I've caught myself staring at the mirror and telling myself that I love, that I love myself. So I can do it. I'm learning to do it. And it sounds like a very basic thing, but it has, it's, it is helping me. Yeah, progress. Yeah.
39:01 Speaker 02 How do you think about, when you reflect back on your journey and where you are today, how do you think about loneliness?
39:12 Speaker 01 I used to think, I know that cliche thing of people say, oh, happiness is fleeting. But we think that happiness is like a place to be and that it's gonna stay forever. Well, I used to think that loneliness was a always forever place. And I'm understanding it that it's fleeting. And it doesn't have to stay forever. And that's what I didn't realize.
39:42 Speaker 02 Part of Javier's process for learning to love himself again has been to rebuild trust with his mom. For years, he had resisted talking to her about his childhood and how her leaving affected him. But they finally had that conversation. And while Javier says it's been a long road, today, they are closer than they've ever been.
40:25 Speaker 02 Hey, thanks so much for listening. That's a wrap on season five of A Slight Change of Plans. We'll be back in 2023 with new episodes. Until then, you can follow the show and connect with me on Instagram at DrMayaShankar. Wishing you a happy holiday and New Year.
40:52 Speaker 02 A Slight Change of Plans is created, written, and executive produced by me, Maya Shankar. The Slight Change family includes our showrunner, Tyler Green, our story editor, Kate Parkinson Morgan, our sound engineer, Andrew Vestola, and our associate producer, Sarah McCray. Louis Garra wrote our delightful theme song, and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, so big thanks to everyone there. And of course, a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee.
41:23 Speaker 00 You can follow A Slight Change of Plans on Instagram at DrMayaShankar.
41:49 Speaker 00 That was a special episode from A Slight Change of Plans with Dr. Maya Shankar. Find more episodes of A Slight Change of Plans wherever you get your podcasts.
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