558 | The Collection

Joshua and T. K. talk about how minimalists might curate an intentional collection, what to do with antique clutter, their favorite black t-shirts, seven items minimalists avoid to keep their living rooms calm and clutter free, and more! Discussed in this episode: What's the difference between collecting and curating? (1:11)

Why are we so good at finding loopholes that let us keep the same behavior in a slightly different form? (3:45) Right Here, Right Now: Joshua recaps his solo tour experience. (20:46) WWJO: Where do The Minimalists get their black t-shirts? (28:16) Listen to the full Maximal episode on Patreon: patreon.com/theminimalists http://patreon.com/theminimalists Detailed show notes: minimalists.com/podcast http://minimalists.com/podcast

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:20Speaker 00

  Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing that's just feeding your greed. Oh, I bet that you'd be fine without it.

• 0:38Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes, the minimalist Joshua Fields Millburn here. TK Coleman, here's something to chew on. A collection is intentional and accumulation is accidental. Now, I almost said incidental because I wanted to play around with the alliteration and the iterate. I wanted to iterate on the alliteration. But then I realized, well, accumulation is accidental. There's also alliteration here. And so my question for you, based on that little maxim, a collection is intentional and accumulation is accidental. What's the difference between collecting and curating?

• 1:14Speaker 02

  So that's an interesting follow because when you compare collection and accumulation, I thought you were going to ask me to expound on the difference between those two. But collection and curation are a little bit closer to each other, whereas neither of those things are accidental. So I see collection as gathering with intent. And I see curation as something like the process of organizing, simplifying, and presenting that which has been gathered with a sense of aesthetic intelligence.

• 1:50Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes. Yeah. Professor Sean was saying that a museum curates their collection. And I think that's a good distinction, a way to look at it here. Because when I go to a museum, the vast majority of their art is not on display. Their collection is stored, but the curated piece that we see is usually a show. It's what is on display, what we put out, what we have visible. And I do think it's possible for, depending on how we use the term, it's possible for a collection to be unintentional. If we're just going around collecting sticks and rocks and putting them in corners of the room, because you don't have an intention behind that. I like, I like the way that you highlighted there.

• 2:33Joshua Fields Millburn?

  A collection, there's some sort of intent with these things, and I can curate that collection. Also, I do accumulate a collection as well. And so we're just playing around with some distinctions here to make you think about really the intentionality about the, the things that we bring into our lives. We're going to talk about that a lot today on this episode because we're going to talk about how minimalists might curate an intentional collection, what to do with antique clutter, our favorite black t-shirt brands, and much, much more. Also, on page three, we're going to review seven items minimalist avoid to keep their living rooms calm and clutter free. So let's dive right into our callers, 406-219-7839.

• 3:16Joshua Fields Millburn?

  If you want to join the show, or you can head on over to theminimalists.com/podcast and record a voice note right there on our website, just a quick one there. Record it, send it over. You can listen to it before you send it as well. Theminimalists.com to record your voice memo. And let us know if you're a Patreon subscriber when you call in so we can prioritize your message. By the way, shout out to our patrons. Your support keeps this podcast 100% advertisement free because sing along at home, y'all. Advertisements suck. Our first question today is from Sean in the United States.

• 3:50Speaker 03

  So how do I become a minimalist if my entire life I've been an antique dealer, antique picker, collector? I'm constantly out looking for the next good deal, the next cool thing. I even thought for a time like, well, if I could be a minimalist, maybe I could just collect antique marbles because they're tiny, but there's still some really badass marbles out there. How do I curb that, that collection obsession?

• 4:21Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Did you hear his solution there, TK? Maybe I'll just collect something smaller, right? And the distinction you made earlier had something to do with the intentionality behind it. So I would say I've used a similar justification in my past. I'll just collect something smaller or different or better, right? We're always looking for, well, you know, this type of collecting is bad. So what's the good form of it? As opposed to, I don't know, identifying whether or not I actually need the collection at all, what purpose does this serve? Instead, I was very good at finding loopholes that would let me, I don't know, perpetuate the same behavior, just in a slightly different form.

• 5:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, I think you don't want to, I know we're using the word obsession here in the positive sense. There is a passion for something. And I don't think you want to cure your passion or approach your passion as if it's something to be cured. And I don't even think you want to blame unhealthy habits on your passion. You want to say, my passion is good. What's the best way for me to support my passion by entering into a more healthful relationship with the habits I have around it? Because sometimes our habits just don't support us, even though they might seem reasonable when we're first implementing them. And so I think of the old quote that Bruce Lee made famous, running water never grows stale.

• 5:45Speaker 02

  That water is good, but water, even water is capable of growing stale. But how do you counter that? Not by getting rid of water, but by continuing the flow, letting it run. The energy that comes into our lives, that, that's passion, right? Like, like you take in the world and it makes you feel alive and it makes you feel excited. And that passion demands creative expression. That's what keeps the energy flowing. But when it gets bottled up, it tends to create some tension and anxiety. What I see in this case is we have a passion for things, the ability to see the usefulness of things that other people might overlook. I can, I can put it together in this way. I can use it to educate this way. I can inspire this kind of person.

• 6:28Speaker 02

  And he's probably got such a great vocabulary for the usefulness of things that it's hard to overlook anything as lacking value. The problem, however, is there's no accountability to how we keep that energy flowing. Once I take something into my home, well, what's the plan? It just sits in the box until I get lucky, until I happen by chance to run across someone who notices the marble and says, wow, that's cool. Well, now we're kind of leaving it up to chance. We're taking it in well, but we don't have a game plan for how we let it out. And so what I would do, instead of trying to curb the appetites, instead of trying to limit myself from buying things, I would simply say, hey, whatever I take in, I need some kind of boundary for when and how it goes out.

• 7:12Speaker 02

  And if I fail to meet that boundary, I refresh my inventory and I let that go so that it can keep, the energy can keep circulating throughout the universe rather than being bottled up in my home, creating this anxiety.

• 7:25Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah. You know, I think about that field trip that you and I and Malabama took over to the Pacific Design Center down the street from here over on Melrose. And I got to thinking about Sean's question through a different lens. And the question I asked myself is, is it possible for an antique collector to be a minimalist? And my knee jerk reaction was going to be no to that. I thought, well, no, because having a giant antique collection, well, now all of a sudden I'm assigning a story to it. Who said giant antique collection? Because when we went over there, there was the James Pierce Furniture Store, which is no longer over there. But I don't know if you remember, but I was in awe of that space.

• 8:08Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And they had just beautiful concrete floors and a few objects. There were antiques and some of them very expensive. And Malabama, she was so floored because they had an antique coffee table that was something like $18,000. I said, well, in Alabama, we just would find that for $30 or $50. And I said, I bet you could actually find that same table somewhere in the United States for $50 or for free on the, on the curb. The reason someone's willing to pay $18,000 for that is the curation, is that the James Pierce folks went and found that one of one antique table. And it says more about that table, well, actually, it says more about the things they

• 8:52Joshua Fields Millburn?

  omitted from the space to really highlight that one table. And it wasn't the only thing in the space. They had a giant antique armoire. All of the, the pieces were beautiful. And I think sometimes that's enough. You talked about the language that Sean probably has around his desire for things, his passion for things, the usefulness of things. And I would also say the beauty of things. Sometimes beauty is just enough. Seeing that table in that space, it lit me up and...

• 9:24Joshua Fields Millburn?

  In that sense, that antique collector, that collection of antiques was so well curated that I would say, yeah, it was certainly minimalist. And it was beautiful in a way that if you had 10x'd or 20x the number of items there, then it just becomes a junk store. I have one of these, ironically, there's a store in Ojai, it's called Hidden Treasures. And there are some hidden treasures in there, but they're quite literally hidden because there's a whole lot of junk in that store as well. Now, junk to me, but some of those might be treasures to someone else. But the store is so cluttered, it's neat aesthetically. Like, I like going in there the same way that I like watching a horror film. I don't want to live in the horror film, but I can experience it in a way that I find

• 10:09Joshua Fields Millburn?

  to be interesting and as long as I'm disassociated from it.

• 10:13Speaker 02

  You make so many good points here, and I'm with you. I think you can absolutely be a museum curator, an antique collector, all of these things, and be minimalist, because one of the fundamental principles of minimalism is the less attached we are to our things, the more we can be generous with them. I can have a large table, but when I'm not attached to having it all to myself, I can either give it away to someone who needs it more, or I can invite company over very frequently. A spare bedroom is very minimalist if I'm putting that to use and not just treating it as something like, this gives me status, but I'm bringing people in, allowing my house to have space. And so, you know, my wife and I just got back from Nashville, and it was during a

• 10:58Speaker 02

  time where so many events were going on sporting-wise, and you couldn't book a hotel room. And there was a wonderful woman who didn't even know us, who lives close to our friends, and she allowed us to stay in her spare bedroom. What a great act of trust. And you know what she says to us? She says, "Thank you for staying in my home. No one does this anymore." She extended her space to us and thanked us for it. You know? That's generosity, man. An extra bedroom, but put to good use. And so, when I see that art, or when I see collecting beautiful things, there's the consideration of other people. Someone would enjoy seeing this, looking at this, being inspired by it.

• 11:40Speaker 02

  I have the room, I have the space, and I can display it for them and tell them a story about it that creates an awesome experience. When we do that, we transform the meaning of our things.

• 11:49Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Let's talk about how a collection can become a problem for us, because I think this is where we get into the idea of collecting as though it is hoarding. And it certainly can be. We just highlighted how a collection can be a minimalist type of collection, and the fact it can enhance your life in beautiful ways. And so, that's when the things begin to amplify or enhance the experience of living in our homes, where we are, and our jobs, our cars, and beautiful third spaces that we spend time in. A well-curated space enhances our life, but a collection that gets in the way is generally, well, at least in my view, I'd love to hear if there's another perspective on this, but

• 12:33Joshua Fields Millburn?

  when it's a collection out of obligation. I know, growing up, I used to collect baseball cards and basketball cards, and I would strive to have, what? A complete collection. And if you're missing the Harold Minor rookie card from-

• 12:49Speaker 02

  You had that one too.

• 12:51Joshua Fields Millburn?

  You had to have the Harold Minor in order to complete the collection.

• 12:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:56Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And as opposed, and then it becomes an obligation, it's a duty, it's something I have to do. No longer do I get to do this, where it's like, oh yeah, I get to complete my collection. For me, it felt like, oh yeah, until it's complete, I am incomplete. And that's a type of psychological clutter.

• 13:13Speaker 02

  It is. It goes back to the principle of getting things done. What is the first rule of getting things done? Defining what it means to be done. And if you never define that, how are you gonna know? You know, in philosophy, there's a principle that says, "For every belief, determine the conditions under which you know you might be wrong." It's okay to think you're right. You think what you think. It's okay to have your opinions and say, "I think I'm right about this." But just in case you're wrong, how will you know? Do you have any kind of standard that allows you to find out when you're wrong? We can apply that same principle to behaviors. I buy something because, hey, I'm probably gonna use it. Okay, that's fair. Maybe you will. You know your life better than I do.

• 13:56Speaker 02

  But just in case you're wrong, just in case you're BSing yourself, just in case you're being seduced by advertisements, how will you know if you're wrong? I think something like the thing sitting in my space for six months and just piling up and me telling myself more and more stories about, "I'm gonna read it one day, well, now I got 50 books, I'm gonna read them one day, now I got 100 unread books." I need a standard for saying, hey, when do I move this on to someone or somewhere else if it doesn't meet a standard of use, or sharing, or something that is adding value to my life? And I think that's what you need.

• 14:32Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Two weeks ago, you had Zach Bush here in the studio with you, and you had that great conversation. I really enjoyed his new book, and I'm sorry I couldn't be here, but I'm, in a way, glad I wasn't here for that conversation, because I enjoyed listening to you to chop it up. And now we can bring him back, and I have a whole list of notes of questions that I want to ask him as well. But one of the things he talks about in his book is about embodiment versus being disembodied. And I think a collection that allows us to feel, to experience, to experience the feelings, that is something that is often worthwhile. But often, we collect out of a sense of disembodiment. I should have these things, this memorabilia, or I should take home the merch from the

• 15:17Joshua Fields Millburn?

  baseball game that I went to, and they gave me this free thing, but also, I should buy something from the gift shop to commemorate this moment, to store my memory of the experience. I'm going to buy this shirt that I'm never going to wear, or this cup, or this mug, or this bobblehead. And then there's that sense of obligation, because I think there's a bit of identity tied up into this as well. So, I do wanna get practical for Sean as we wrap this up, but before I get practical on what I would do if I were in his shoes, I'd love to ask you, I think there's a difference between I collect antiques and I am a collector.

• 16:02Joshua Fields Millburn?

  What happens when the behavior becomes part of our identity?

• 16:05Speaker 02

  We do whatever it is we do, and we justify it by saying, "It is a part of my nature to do it," versus, "I like to collect." That puts you in direct touch with your interests and your passions, and so there's always something other than the thing itself. I like to take pictures. Why? Because I love gathering my friends together and sharing these memories. I love seeing the smile on someone's face when someone shows them a beautiful headshot of themselves, right? Or, "I like to drive. I love getting people from one place to another," you know? Or, "I love that feeling of being on a long road trip and just feeling the breeze and

• 16:48Speaker 02

  the way it connects me to myself," versus, "I am a driver." Like, I wake up in the morning, my identity compels me to do this or that thing, because that's my nature to do it. It doesn't have to be dogmatic like that, but it often allows us to slip into like some autopilot state where we end up doing more than what is healthy for us to do, because after all, it is part of my identity to do it.

• 17:10Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, I think that becomes dangerous, and often, in some ways, it obscures the verb, the noun obscures the verb. When I say, "I am a writer," I know how that can be helpful for some people, but also for me, it became a type of identity clutter in the sense that, well, now that I've given myself that label, I don't really need to write. But what I tell my writing students now is I'm much more interested in the verb, in writing, than the noun "writer." And the same is true with collecting as opposed to "I am a collector," because what happens when you get rid of your collection? Did you now lose your identity? Are you no longer you? Well, if the truth is that you enjoy collecting right now, that might change, and if it changes, it's okay.

• 17:54Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And Sean, I'll leave you with this in the Minimalist Rulebook, which you can download for free on our website, theminualists.com-rulebook. It's also available as an audiobook on Audible now, and you can find it on the Kindle if you read eBooks on a Kindle. So, you can get it for free, or you can get it over there, an audiobook or Kindle. But we have a rule in there. It's one of the 16 rules for living with less in that book. It's called the "one in, 10 out" rule. And so, if I were a collector and I wanted to be a minimalist collector, well, actually, if I wanted to be a person who enjoys collecting, who's also a minimalist, you see that the thing that I would do is I would find ways to subtract, but not deprive myself of also

• 18:39Joshua Fields Millburn?

  bringing in new things that might add value to my life. The minimalist life is not a deprivationist life. And so, when I think about bringing new things in, I just want some boundaries. I know I wanna let go of some things. And so, the rule that we came up with is based on the "one in, 1 out" rule, which you often see in like nightclubs, where if they're at capacity, you have a line out the door, you can go in as soon as one person leaves. One in, 1 out. Well, you're not gonna get rid of the excess by doing it that way, so I made it the "one in, 10 out" rule. Every time you want to bring in a new piece, it's letting 10 things go. Now, obviously, this rule doesn't work in perpetuity. Eventually, you'll get to a point where you have negative possessions, where that doesn't seem possible to me, although you're the mathematician here, maybe you could tell

• 19:23Joshua Fields Millburn?

  me the parabolic curve behind that that makes it possible. There's a quadratic formula for any equation. So, what I recognize is that when I have a superabundance of stuff-

• 19:38Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I can still bring new things in. And as I bring new things in, it's a challenge to let go of 10x the things that I'm bringing back in. And that does a few things. One is it immediately helps you identify the things that are no longer serving me. But it also helps you be careful about the new things that I bring in. Because I can't just bring things in haphazardly anymore. Every time I bring one new antique in, I have to let go of 10. And of course, that rule, like any of our rules, is adjustable. It could be one in, six out, or one in, 100 out. If you have a big coffee mug collection that you're trying to to get rid of, you can adjust that boundary for your own taste, your own preferences.

• 20:19Joshua Fields Millburn?

  But I think if you start there, what you recognize is that I can still bring things in, and I can let go as I do it. And over time, my collection becomes much more well curated. And that curated collection, I usually enjoy much more than a super abundance of things that are just getting in the way. Let's do a what would Josh own question here in a second. Then we still have an entire switchboard of callers to talk to. But first, real quick for our right here, right now segment. Here's one thing that's going on in the life of the minimalists. So last week, we didn't do a podcast episode because I was out on the road. I was doing my first ever solo tour. It just started.

• 21:00Joshua Fields Millburn?

  We kicked off in the Pacific Northwest and Seattle and Vancouver. And wow, we still have two stops coming up this year. New York is later, later this month, October 18. I think there are still some tickets left for that. You can find those at our website. And just announced, by the time this episode comes out, it should be up and ready to go on sale here. We're going to do Los Angeles at the end of the year in December as a way to end the tour for this year. And then make sure you're on our mailing list, our email list, so that we can let you know if we add new cities in the new year. I plan on adding some new cities in 2027 because I've been enjoying this experience so much.

• 21:43Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Now, I got to tell you, TK, I showed up in Seattle and I started having these doubts. What am I doing? I over-prepared for this. I have all, like, all this material. And why do I have this memorized? I don't have that memorized. This part can't be memorized. This part is impromptu. It's sort of one-third stand-up comedy show, one-third TED Talk, one-third audience participation. And the audience, it's a choose your own adventure. The first two nights were both radically different. I read different things. I do some reading from the stage. You ever see Neil Brennan's three mics? He did this setup where he did like, he had three mics set up on the stage.

• 22:24Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I took that and I have one side of the stage where I give a talk from. And then I've been working on this book that I've been writing. And I have all these pages from that book. And I have them on the other side of the stage on a stand, on a lectern. And so when I'm ready, I'll go over and read something. And then I'll go back to the other side and start talking with the audience. And it worked out. I didn't know how it was going to work, and it worked perfectly. And each night was so different. But I'm in the green room in Seattle and I'm like, what am I doing? I, should I just cancel the whole tour? And the nerves kicked in, but in a good way, a way that I felt like, oh, this is growth.

• 23:05Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I called up Nicodemus from the green room, like, man, it sure feels weird to go on stage without you here. He's like, oh, you're gonna do great, man. I'm like, thank you. I hope, I hope I am, but I just want to say it's really strange. I'm here by myself. I'm going out on stage. And Savvy D was asking me beforehand, before we started recording, he goes, do you like being by yourself? I said, yeah, I really like traveling by myself. I like being by myself. I don't like going on stage by myself usually.

• 23:31Speaker 02

  Okay, I know this isn't because you're afraid of large crowds or public speaking and all those usual things. Talk a little bit about that. Why is it that for such an introvert who loves being alone, this part is not something that you love?

• 23:44Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I think the familiarity of the team sport of it. I, I find that when me and you and Ryan, or just me and one other person even on stage, I have someone to bounce something off of. Now, it has to be the, it has to be an interlocutor that I feel comfortable with. It can't just be any random person. That could make it much worse. And so I also just didn't know how it was going to go. I didn't do a test run of shows and I was kicking myself for not doing like a small test run in Los Angeles or Ojai or, or something. But I'm so glad I didn't. That first night was one of the best shows I've ever done. The Seattle, I mean, it, they were laughing at things I didn't even expect them to laugh at.

• 24:27Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Jokes were coming out that I didn't have planned at all. I have this slideshow that I'm following along, but it's sort of choose your own adventure. So the audience gets to decide what's going to happen next. And that felt interesting to me because there wasn't a script necessarily. There was a rough outline, but I also knew this thing is supposed to get off the train tracks at some point. And we're going to get off the train. We're going to explore a little bit, then we'll get back on the train. And we're going to go a little bit further. And then we're going to get off the train again. And, oh, I'm going to read this here. And then also it was interesting because I have some American references in the talk that I give. And they went over people's heads in Canada. I had to make a note of that, like, oh, yeah.

• 25:11Joshua Fields Millburn?

  But even that was great because I could then make fun of the American culture of overconsumption in ways. And that ended up working out in my advantage as well. And so it was just things I didn't expect. There were some things I've never read publicly that I read in Seattle. And I read some different stuff in, in Vancouver. And I'll read some different things in New York coming up and Los Angeles. And then we just play around and shape it together. What I realized is I really like books, book books, ebooks, audiobooks. But I've never really seen a live book before. The closest I've ever seen is, is David Sedaris, who I really enjoy. And he's reading just passages. And it's less interactive.

• 25:51Joshua Fields Millburn?

  It's still interactive and he's the master of giving, doing live events and readings. He's so good at it. But I've never seen a sort of live book unfold in front of a crowd where each event is appreciably different from the previous one. In fact, I had one person or one couple who went to both events. And they were like, wow, I was surprised how different the two nights were. So you covered the same, you were on the same journey, but we covered completely different, but it's like the scenery was different. So you're looking at one side of the bus versus the other, and you saw a completely different scene.

• 26:29Speaker 02

  But was it, was it the crowd, the energy? What?

• 26:31Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I think it was the energy. I think it's the culture. I think part of it was I wanted to try some different things in different cities. And so there is this testing element. It felt like this laboratory where I was trying different things out. And all of the things worked, even the things that didn't work, because it was really good feedback for me to realize that, oh, yeah, yeah. I need to tweak that a little bit. I need to pause here. I, and man, I felt so alive at these events. And I was dreading two minutes before going on, should I cancel the whole thing? And I'm so glad that I didn't. So if you want to join me, New York and Los Angeles before the end of the year, also sign up for our email newsletter at theminimalists.com.

• 27:14Joshua Fields Millburn?

  We'll put you on the simple newsletter, no spam, no junk, no ads, no noise. But we will start your week off with a dose of simplicity. Each week I, I write a new essay, something I'm pondering for the week, some minimalist tip or insight. And also we'll give you the podcast show notes and all that fun stuff in the simple newsletter over at theminimalists.com.

• 27:33Speaker 02

  Wait, Josh?

• 27:34Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah.

• 27:34Speaker 02

  I gotta ask you a question about.

• 27:35Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Tell me.

• 27:37Speaker 02

  You, you have to choose one of the following two titles for your Netflix solo special under the premise that Ryan and I have died and you're getting ready to do your first Netflix solo special. Title one is Back at One. I know you hate that one, that's why I put it in there. Title two is My Friends Are Dead, But My Life Is Just Beginning. You have to pick one.

• 28:01Joshua Fields Millburn?

  You're leading the witness here, obviously the latter. Maybe I do the Jeanette McCurdy thing. I say, I'm glad my friends are dead. Shout out to Jeanette. All right, let's get page two here in a second. But first, let's do a what would Josh own question, WWJO. This one is from Jerry.

• 28:24Speaker 04

  Hey, minimalists. This is Jerry calling from North Carolina.

• 28:29Speaker 04

  What kind of t-shirts do you guys own? I was wondering if you had any recommendations on something non-toxic, preferably cotton, or even better, organic cotton, and something loveless. Thanks so much.

• 28:48Joshua Fields Millburn?

  This might be the number one question I get in my DMs and via email. Where do the minimalists get their black t-shirts? And I'll tell you in a second what brand I use. I'm not afraid of that. You know, this question used to drive me crazy, TK. But I've changed my mind in the last year or two. I actually like the question now. Can you guess why it used to drive me nuts?

• 29:12Speaker 02

  I think so. My guess would be the whole idea behind wearing black t-shirts is to get out of the game of your clothing being at the forefront. Because if you did the opposite and you just like picked out the best t-shirt, something that uniquely expresses your personality, you would get the other question. What kind of t-shirt? Where do you get that shirt from? Oh, man, I got it for a hundred dollars over here, whatever. But you want it to be out of that game. I want my clothing to be in the background. And so for people to bring it back to the forefront and be like, where'd you get your black t-shirt? It's almost like saying, hey, like, uh, who did you pay to, uh, remove your makeup? Like, you know, you say, I'm not gonna wear any more makeup. Hey, man, who did you pay to take the makeup off? It's like, no, the goal is for it to not be a thing.

• 29:53Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, I would often get people see our first Netflix documentary, or the second one, and they say, I watched your documentary. I really enjoyed it. I'm changing my life. Where do you get your t-shirts? My first thought was, did you miss the point? This isn't a documentary about consumption and how to consume more. That's consumerism. And now, the problem is I was conflating intentional consumption with consumerism. And yes, I could see why my previous self was a bit frustrated by it. If that was the only thing they walked away from, but that wasn't the only thing they walked away from. It was really a signal of trust.

• 30:33Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Someone was saying, hey, I trust you guys. You seem to live intentionally and responsibly. I want to do that, too. And so I see your purchasing decisions as a shortcut, so I don't have to make bad purchasing decisions on my way to finding the thing that works for me. And so, a couple of disclaimers. I don't have an affiliation with any t-shirt brand. The company I wear is called Los Angeles Apparel. It's the company I keep coming back to the most. I really enjoy their shirts for a few reasons. One is, I like the way they fit personally, a little bit boxy, but they're loose and and they, they feel good. It's 100% cotton. And also, they're made here locally in Los Angeles, and they're made in conditions.

• 31:16Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I really appreciate with Dove Charney, the guy who started Los Angeles Apparel, he pays his workers really well. They have benefits. They're paid. I think, I forget what the amount is, but it says on their website, there's a whole story behind it. It's like $24, $25 an hour. It's well above minimum wage. And their benefits are above minimum wage, but also their conditions. Do you know that something like 90% of factories in America, garment factories, are sweatshop-like conditions? So just because something is made in America doesn't mean it's not made in a sweatshop. And that's, that's painful, because you think you see that tag, "Made in America," and it must mean that it's made responsibly, but it doesn't necessarily mean that.

• 31:59Joshua Fields Millburn?

  So I like they're made locally. I like that they're made responsibly. I like that they're 100% cotton. I'm not wearing plastic on my body. But I also just really like the fact that the workers are treated well. But the other thing I noticed is, it's the shirt that I keep coming back to. If you're anything like me, you eventually have to put together a rule that says, I'm not gonna buy anything else off Instagram. It's a new rule I have in place. I can't buy anything from an Instagram ad. Well, why is that? Well, because they, they know my purchasing habits. You know, every time I pull up Instagram, they're trying to show me a new black t-shirt that is for sale from some fly-by-night brand. And even as one of the titular minimalists, I have been bamboozled by those brands.

• 32:44Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I've purchased exactly one shirt from Instagram that I've enjoyed. It was a company called Bronze Snake, I think. But the, all the others that I've tried, I've not liked any of them, personally. It just, it didn't work for me. They were either cheap, or they showed up six weeks later, and I realized that, oh, I was buying the branding, the marketing, the advertising, the seduction. And Los Angeles Apparel is sort of the opposite of that. It's understated. There's no logo. There's no giant marketing campaign that's influencing me or seducing me into, to buying anything. And the quality is just consistent and solid.

• 33:26Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And they're not heavily priced either. They're not like crazy in terms of what the, the price structure is. So I don't have any affiliation with Los Angeles Apparel, but it's one of the few companies I'd be happy to have some sort of affiliation with. In fact, I had a, a call with Dove, maybe a few months ago. My friend Greg introduced us, and nothing materialized with that, but I'd be happy to do some sort of intentional collection for the minimalists, because it's a brand that I believe in. And so I shout their name from the rooftops, even though they've never given me a penny. That said, I'm, I'm usually relatively brand agnostic, and I recognize that I'm still complete without any particular brand of shirt.

• 34:09Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And I also recognize that anyone listening to this probably doesn't need any new clothes right now. And so when it comes time to replace your clothes, if you want a brand that I trust, whether or not it works for you in terms of fit, or cost, or whatever, you get to decide that. The brand that I use most for my t-shirts is Los Angeles Apparel. The shirt I'm wearing right here is the, the 1801. They also have this mock neck that I wear, called the 1825, that I, that I really enjoy. Those are the two shirts that I wear regularly. We'll put a link to them in the show notes if you want to check them out. For anyone else has a "What Would Josh Own?" question, or a listener tip for the show, you can visit theminimists.com/podcast and record a voice note right over there. You

• 34:54Joshua Fields Millburn?

  can ask me anything. Ask me about my coffee maker, my vacuum, my, I don't know, whatever. What questions do people usually have about these things?

• 35:04Speaker 02

  Hygiene products?

• 35:06Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah.

• 35:06Speaker 02

  But also, remember, I threw out a, a variation of this many episodes ago. I should remind again now. If there's something you see that you don't even want, but you wonder to yourself, would he buy that? These are the kinds of questions I ask him, especially when I see these, like, really highly-priced luxury items, and I question whether or not they're even necessary. I, I go, would Josh buy that? And I come back and ask him, would you buy an NBA team? Would you buy a Mercedes? You know?

• 35:35Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Let's do one of those right now. We, we have a couple of minutes. We'll do a sort of lightning round version of that. What is your curiosity at this moment? What would Josh own? And I think these questions are often hypothetical in the sense that if I had infinite money, or if I was a billionaire, what might I own?

• 35:51Speaker 02

  Would you ever buy a pair of shoes that's over $500?

• 35:57Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I have purchased a pair of shoes that is over $500.

• 36:00Speaker 02

  Really?

• 36:00Joshua Fields Millburn?

  But not since my twenties.

• 36:02Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 36:03Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I've had some, actually, they're probably right around 500, the Allen Edmonds dress shoes that I had, and I had quite a few pairs. The problem, I think, that I had with those was I had quite a few pairs of $300 or $400 dress shoes. Maybe I had a dozen.

• 36:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:18Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Who the hell needs a dozen pairs of dress shoes? I under, there's a good argument for having, you know, brown and black, and maybe even two pairs of black, because you don't want to wear the same dress shoes two days in a row, they say, because of the sweat can ruin the leather, and so you want to give them a day to air out. I can understand that, but at some threshold, having 12 different pairs, by the way, they all looked very, very similar, too. It didn't make a whole lot of sense, just like having 70 dress shirts didn't make a whole lot of sense, and having 12 suits didn't make a whole lot of sense for me, especially because they're all very, very similar. And so, would I do it? No, if I was, I would, if I was a billionaire, I'd wear the same shoes that I wear now. If you have a question about that, you can feel free to, to send

• 37:03Joshua Fields Millburn?

  that. I would wear the same clothes that I wear now. I think I would drive the same car that I, that I have now, too. I'm, I'm less married to that, but I, I'm much more utilitarian in that sense. And I like my car a lot. It's a 2014 Toyota 4Runner, and I enjoy driving it. If it broke down, though, I'd be fine with replacing it and, and getting something else that adds value to my life.

• 37:29Speaker 02

  What could influence you to buy a luxury car?

• 37:34Joshua Fields Millburn?

  My favorite car ever is the 1992 Range Rover Town and Country 4.6.

• 37:43Joshua Fields Millburn?

  It's a beautiful work of art.

• 37:46Joshua Fields Millburn?

  It's unsustainable in terms of, the, the colloquialism is that Range Rovers leak on the lot, so they're gonna leak oil before you even purchase them. But imagine a car that's 30-something years old, how much, how many problems that's gonna give to you. So the cost of that car is much higher than the price tag, the maintenance and the breaking down and the replacing. If there was a world in which there was a perfect 1992 Range Rover replica, that had all the guts and everything replaced, and it worked perfectly mechanically and, and in terms of the engine, I could see that, because it's like driving a work of art.

• 38:28Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I think that the second closest thing to that would be the older Mercedes G-Wagons. Those, those look like works of art to me as well. I don't really have a desire to own one, but I really appreciate them when I see them. And there are a few in my town up in Ojai, the Range Rovers and the G-Wagons, the older ones. And there's something about that where I can admire it without needing to acquire it. Ooh, that rhymed.

• 38:50Speaker 02

  All right, got it. Quick ones, quick ones. Would you ever buy a shopping mall?

• 38:55Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes.

• 38:55Speaker 02

  Really?

• 38:56Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I'm not gonna tell you why right now, though, just for the sake of time.

• 38:58Speaker 02

  Okay, fair enough.

• 38:59Joshua Fields Millburn?

  But absolutely, yes.

• 39:00Speaker 02

  We'll talk about that later.

• 39:01Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, yeah. All right, for anyone else has a WWJAO question, let us know. theminimists.com/podcast. Record your voice message over there. Up next, page two and page three, but first, let's take a quick pandiculation break. We'll be right back.

• 39:19Joshua Fields Millburn?

  All right, y'all, that is the first 33% of episode 558. We'll see you on Patreon for the full two-hour maximal episode, which includes answers to a bunch more questions. Questions like, what does a cluttered house say about your personal battles? How do our deferred decisions about possessions affect the people around us? Does an object need to be useful to deserve space in our lives? Plus a million more questions and simple living segments over on the Minimalist Private Podcast on Patreon. The link is in the description. And you subscribe, you can listen to our private episodes on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Plus, you'll gain access to all of our archives, all the

• 40:01Joshua Fields Millburn?

  way back to our very first episode back in 2015. It's more than a decade of living with less. And that is our minimal episode for today. On behalf of Ryan Nicodemus, TK Coleman, Audio Ben, Spire Jeff, and Dave, Tom Cat, Professor Sean, Savvy D, and the rest of our team, I'm Joshua Fields Millburn. If you leave here today with just one message, let it be this: Love people and use things, because the opposite never works. Thanks for listening, y'all. We'll see you next time.

• 40:34Speaker 02

  Peace.