553 | Organize by Room

Joshua and T. K. speak with Julia Raz about struggling to keep common areas clutter free, organizing your home by room, the difference between decluttering and eliminating, three signs you're emotionally drained from cleaning your home, and much more! Discussed in this episode: How have unrealistic expectations contributed to the clutter and stress in people's homes? (1:01) When one person in a household embraces minimalism but everyone else doesn't, where's the healthiest place to begin? (4:03) Right Here, Right Now: The Letting Go Tour and the Simple Newsletter (20:47) Listener Tip: A tip for managing children's pajamas. (21:42) Listen to the full Maximal episode on Patreon: patreon.com/theminimalists http://patreon.com/theminimalists Detailed show notes: minimalists.com/podcast http://minimalists.com/podcast

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:20Speaker 00

  Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing that's just feeding your greed. Oh, I bet that you'll be fine without it.

• 0:38Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes, The Minimalists. I'm Joshua Fields Millburn. Joining me here in the studio, TK Coleman. We have a special guest today. Today, we're joined by the founder of Golden West Organizing. Please welcome back to the show Dr. Julia Raz.

• 0:53Speaker 02

  Thank you. Thank you so much for having me for a third time.

• 0:58Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Welcome back.

• 1:00Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:01Joshua Fields Millburn?

  All right, Julia, here's something to chew on. Peace begins where expectations end. How have unrealistic expectations contributed to the clutter and stress that you see in your clients' homes?

• 1:16Speaker 02

  I don't want to 100% blame social media for this. As someone who creates content for social media myself and consumes it, however, I'm going to say this anyway, that I think what we see on the internet of quote unquote "perfect" homes and what they should look like contributes to so much stress about the state of our own homes. Because we are comparing ourselves socially, right? We're socially comparing ourselves to what we see on the internet, thinking that's what our reality should be. But I'm going to tell you something that I think influencers that I've worked with wouldn't mind me sharing, which is they often select one small corner of their home, film from that to make it quote unquote "perfect," and the rest of it is a hot mess, like most of the homes that I work in. But then, when you use that as a barometer, right?

• 2:00Speaker 02

  That small image, that edited image, it's hard to measure up to that and feel like you're good enough. And so, I see that as a problem in so many homes I work in, is that what they want it to look like is not the reality for almost anybody.

• 2:12Joshua Fields Millburn?

  TK, that's what I love about our good friend Matt Diavella. Remember, he used to live right down the street from here. I think he did his early podcast like almost a decade ago.

• 2:22Speaker 03

  I did.

• 2:23Joshua Fields Millburn?

  When he was doing the Ground Up Show. But one thing he does, he makes things look really beautiful on camera, but then he'll sort of show you behind the scenes, and you realize, especially to have all the lights and equipment and cords going everywhere, you recognize that what you see on the screen is not reality. And he'll show you that unapologetically. It's not that he's trying to hide it. But I think what you're saying is quite often, the images we see hides the clutter that's going on beneath the surface. Coming up on this episode, I've got a lot to talk to you about. I'm glad you're here, because we're going to talk about struggling to keep common areas clutter-free.

• 3:04Joshua Fields Millburn?

  We'll talk about organizing your home by room, the difference between decluttering and eliminating, and much, much more. Also, on page two, you brought some surprise, and you wouldn't tell me what it was. We'll bring that out. We'll put it up here on the desk for page two. And on page three, I've got something for you. We're going to investigate three signs you're emotionally drained from cleaning your home. Let's start with our callers, 406-219-7839, if you'd like to join the show. Or you can just head on over to our website, theminualists.com/podcast, and you can record a quick voice memo right there, right there on our website. Keep it really simple for you. You don't have to email anything in now. Just head on over to theminualists.com/podcast.

• 3:48Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Let us know if you're a Patreon subscriber when you record that message, so we can prioritize it. Shout out to our patrons. Your support keeps our podcast 100% advertisement-free, because sing along at home, y'all. Advertisements suck. Yuck. All right, our first question today is from Sophia.

• 4:06Speaker 04

  Hello, The Minimalists. I'm Sophia from Córdoba, Argentina, and I wanted to ask you something, that I really need help with this. And I was wondering, what can I do with my family? I will give you some context. So, I live with my mother and my grandmother, and although I've been doing lots of decluttering things, I mean, getting rid of my own stuff, I still feel overwhelmed with the common areas that we have in the house. I mean, the areas that we share. For example, the living room, the kitchen, the bathroom. And sometimes I get extremely anxious and overwhelmed by looking at those places and

• 4:47Speaker 04

  feeling that everything is messy, it's crammed furniture and things, and I look at the things that we never use in the house. So, I've been doing, I have decluttered my room and lots of things, but I don't know what to do with them, because every time I tell my mother we need to get rid of this, sometimes she does. She makes the effort, and she does a great job. But sometimes she looks at me, she says, "I can't put that in the trash bin." And I'm talking, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about giving away or doing something else, like not exactly put everything in the trash. What can I do with that? What can, what kind of piece of advice can you give me related to that?

• 5:31Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Julia, when you're in someone's home, and one person is all the way in, "I'm ready to embrace minimalism, I'm ready to declutter," or "I'm ready to quote unquote organize," and we can talk about that as well, but then, other people in the home, they're not ready. Where's the healthiest place to begin?

• 5:50Speaker 02

  I think that, and I was just taking some notes about how she was feeling, I think that she is doing all the right things by starting with her own possessions. So, when she said, "I did what I can in my room," I think she started in the right place. She used words like anxious and overwhelmed, and that's not good, right? And I hear this so often, that people feel this way, and it's a point of frustration with their families. And she mentioned that she lives with her mom and grandma, so this is an intergenerational family. Common areas are a really tricky space, but I like to remind people that everyone equally deserves to live in the home. You do not deserve that more than mom or grandma. And so, you have to navigate all of these different people, personalities, needs, backgrounds, into those common spaces.

• 6:30Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And when you say "common spaces," what are some of the most common common spaces?

• 6:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I'm going to list some of the ones that she mentioned. So, she mentioned the living room and the kitchen, and I don't know, maybe this is a shared bathroom too, but those are some very common spaces. And so, I think as a group, they need to set some ground rules. It doesn't mean that she herself is going to dictate, "Okay, because all of a sudden I'm minimalist now, you can't keep anything, this is my say." I don't think that that's how this household works, probably, I'm going to guess, right? But I think that as a group, they need to have some sort of common language as to what the shared spaces will be like, and what spaces that are private can be like. Because mom and grandma, if they have their own rooms, let them do whatever they want in their private spaces. But I think in those common areas, like the living room, we have to have those types of ground rules and stick to it as a group.

• 7:14Speaker 02

  But the first thing she needs to do is talk with mom and grandma about this in a non-judgmental way, and not say, "Hey, if you don't get these," or "You're so sloppy, if you don't get this out, I'm moving out." I mean, they might just say, "Okay, move out." I don't think that that's the reality here. But talk about what she would like it to look like, right? Talk about what is that ideal of what it would look like and what it would feel like, so she's not feeling anxious and overwhelmed. Maybe mom and grandma don't feel that way at all. They're like, "This is good. I like how this looks." And I'm running through my mind, without knowing this family, some of the reasons why they may not want to let go, right? Which, there's so many different reasons without knowing them, such as, maybe they didn't have a lot growing up, and it's hard for them to let go for that reason. We don't, I don't even know what it looks like in there. So, but all that matters is how she feels. And I think if she approaches it through I statements, "I'm feeling really overwhelmed

• 7:59Speaker 02

  when I walk into our kitchen because," and they'll say, "There are things all over the counter," or "Every time I come in, there are dishes piled in the sink. Here is what I would like to have happen in the future as a family." And then just see how they approach it, instead of, "Let's just throw this away," or "Can you throw that away? Why don't you do that?" Instead of accusing them, instead, talk about it in terms of how you're feeling and what you would like it to be like. And then, hopefully, you can find some common ground. When people reach out to me about somebody else, I always tell them I don't work in intervention settings, so someone will say, "My significant other is so messed." You know, it's never a one-person thing too, I want to share that, is that it's always a family issue. And so, I think the root here is the communication and having that kind of conversation with the group about what's realistic.

• 8:44Speaker 02

  And then, potentially, having to cut back expectations on what that family room, kitchen, what these spaces actually look like. It may not be as minimal as you want it to be, because you're not the only one who lives there and matters in that home.

• 8:56Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, that's the truth in my own home. I mean, I have a wife and a daughter, and I would have fewer things if it weren't for them, but the cost of admission for being in the same house with them requires me to have some of these things within reason.

• 9:10Speaker 02

  Right.

• 9:11Joshua Fields Millburn?

  But within reason is the key here. I mean, TK, when we're talking about, obviously, it wouldn't be reasonable if the mom said, "Well, I really think we should keep a drawer full of dead hamsters in the kitchen."

• 9:21Speaker 02

  See, we can say this on the show.

• 9:25Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I guess Julia does some shows sometimes. You have to be careful what you say.

• 9:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 9:30Joshua Fields Millburn?

  You don't want to interrupt, you don't want to disrupt the sponsorships here.

• 9:33Speaker 02

  Exactly, exactly.

• 9:34Speaker 03

  I think you're supposed to call them "rampsters" to bypass the censorship.

• 9:38Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, I don't want to get demonetized.

• 9:40Speaker 02

  That's so funny.

• 9:41Joshua Fields Millburn?

  You can't say "dead hamsters," you have to say "self-delete," no, whatever, like, all of these euphemisms, right? So, I think that you recognize that it's within reason, and her preferences may still be within reason. And yours are within reason as well. There's a spectrum of reason here, TK. But I think there was another part that she mentioned here, and I think one of the reasons it's hard for her mom to let go is she's saying, well, I can't just throw all of this away. And I think one of the common misconceptions here is I either have to hold on to it and treat my house like a landfill, or I have to put this thing in a landfill, as if that's the sort of binary option between the two.

• 10:21Speaker 03

  Yes, it's so important to recognize the signs of winning. Sometimes we are winning and we don't know that we're winning because we haven't properly identified what to look for. That response from the mother is a sign that you are winning because she's letting you know that she's actually cool with accommodating some of your preferences. She just has a bunch of misconceptions that makes it impossible for her to act on it in good conscience because she equates minimizing with wasting, with throwing valuable things away. And so all you gotta do is be able to help her make that adjustment. I think about this one time, my dad's sitting at the kitchen table, and growing up, I love watching karate movies with my pop. And so I wanted to see if he'd watch a karate movie with me. And I says, Dad, wanna watch a karate movie?

• 11:05Speaker 03

  And he's busy, working, going through papers, and he goes, no, I don't have time right now, son. And I go, okay. And my brother overhears, and he says, dude, you don't know how to do it. You can't ask him. He's gonna say no every time because he's gonna think about two hours, and he doesn't have two hours. What you gotta do is just put the karate movie on while he's in the kitchen and just let it play. And he's gonna look at it, and then after a while, he'll be like, woo, look at that kick. And then he'll be completely into it. And I tried it, and it absolutely worked. Some people are willing to do certain things, but when they think about the cost ahead of time, it intimidates them, and they run in the opposite direction. And so that's clearly what happened with your mother here. What if we did this? Oh, but I can't throw things away. And one adjustment you could

• 11:50Speaker 03

  make is you could kind of like do a little bit of the legwork, and you can say, hey, would you be okay if I put all of the shoes right here? Or would you be okay if I went through this, put some of the things that I don't think we need as much into a little box, and I'll run it by you so I get your approval, because I won't throw away anything that you still need. But then I can sell it, or I can donate it, and I'll take care of that part. Or, you know, I looked up some towels, and I think I could simplify our towel situation. Would you mind if I got this towel set right here? Like, you can just kind of take a look at it, and I'll handle all the work involved? If you're willing to do that, and I know you shouldn't have to, but sometimes just that willingness to advocate for yourself and fight for what you want and do that

• 12:33Speaker 03

  extra work makes it easier for people to cooperate with you, and you do it selfishly, you know?

• 12:38Speaker 02

  Perhaps you can show her room, too. I'm sure they've seen the room, but show her room as a demonstration of what she's hoping to achieve, too. Be like, hey, you see what I've done here in my own room? And this is how I feel when I come into this room. If you're open to it, can I try doing this in the kitchen or the living room? I promise I'm not gonna throw away anything without your consent, but just if you're willing to let me do this, I'll show you what it could look like. And perhaps them seeing the possibility when it's the after without all of the stuff in the midst of it will then encourage them to do it, too. Maybe. I mean, I'm not sure if this will work, but maybe when they see how beautiful and peaceful the kitchen looks, they'll be like, yeah, you're right. Okay, I didn't even care about all of that stuff. But I think that starting with her bedroom can be a good point, too, of being like, hey, this is what I'm

• 13:20Speaker 02

  trying to achieve. Can I try it, like you're suggesting, in one other spot, and just get your two cents on it?

• 13:26Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, before going to the shared areas, the common areas, having a demonstration with your own area and what it produces. What's the why behind it? I feel so much calmer, lighter. I feel less cluttered internally when I have less external clutter, and be able to demonstrate that. It's not necessarily an intellectual exercise. It's an emotional exercise. And I love what you're both saying here, because it's not about assigning homework to the other family members. Here's what you should do. Here's your homework. Here are your shoulds. I made a list for you. Now get to work. No wonder that can feel overwhelming. We all have a tendency to do that. It took me 30 years to find minimalism, and now I expect you to figure it out in 30 seconds or less. And of course, it doesn't work

• 14:08Joshua Fields Millburn?

  that way. It was appealing to me because I understood the benefits of simplifying. Before we move on to another question, Julia, I was hoping you could talk to me a bit about, I was looking at your website, organizing by room and why that's important to you.

• 14:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know that all of us who are working in the professional organizing field have different philosophies about where to start, right? So someone like Marie Kondo would be doing it by type of object, right? And gathering all clothes from all parts of the home and looking at them as a whole. The reason why I start by room, and I always choose what I consider a space that can be finished in four to six hours, which I know may not sound like a lot of time, it isn't a lot of time. But I start with that because I want people to, as you were just talking about with the emotional side, I want people to feel a quick win. They need to see what is possible quickly, because otherwise, if they tell me, can you start in my floor-to-ceiling boxes garage, and then in four hours, we've just made this small dent, they may not feel the momentum to keep going. So I want them

• 15:03Speaker 02

  to feel like that anxiety that the last caller said, or that feeling of overwhelm has disappeared, because we use that as fuel and motivation to do the rest of it. So I always choose a single room for that reason, and I try to choose one that is a common area, if possible, or if not everybody is on board, that person's space, their own individual space, and use that, again, as the starting point and as the reminder of, okay, this is what we were able to do in a small amount of time. Now let's tackle the bigger spaces. So usually, we finish a room in four to six hours, but that, I always give a little asterisk with that. It always depends on the quantity of items, the nature of the items, and how decisive that person is. It's not a judgment call here, but some

• 15:45Speaker 02

  people want to talk with us at length about every individual piece of everything, and that's how they need to process through things. So it's slower. And other people are on the other end, and they're so fed up. Most recently, someone, and this has only happened twice ever, where someone said, I want at least 50% of the toys in this playroom gone. She wanted to see it. But when someone is that level of fed up, it's very fast. I actually like 90% left that day. But most people are somewhere in the middle.

• 16:08Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Being fed up is a real motivator here, and I actually think that's where Sophia is, TK. And there's, the shared space requires, here's a Maximo wrote down, shared space requires shared grace, because it's not just, you can't just tackle it all on your own and expect them to be happy about it, because it may not, as Julia pointed out, it may not be causing that anxiety or overwhelm for them that it is causing for you. I'd like to wrap up this question by talking about the emotional clutter component of all of this. What do you have to say to Sophia about that?

• 16:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think it's important to remember that people who behave and prioritize differently from us are not necessarily bad people who are deliberately trying to crap on what it is we want. They just might have different sensitivities. And oftentimes, what we take to be virtue is nothing more than the sensation of being disturbed by certain things that don't disturb others as much. And it's not that we're good. It's just that we have the grace to be bothered by it, and in order to scratch that itch, we change it. But if the other person doesn't have that itch, they won't be motivated like you to scratch it. And when you can remember that, it can help you deal with the emotional clutter

• 17:23Speaker 03

  of disturbing your peace by expecting something from other people that it is not realistic to give. And when you lower the expectations of other people, it actually allows you to influence them from a place of greater compassion, instead of saying, why can't you just be this way? Or, you need to do something about this. You can, to borrow your phrasing, hey, would you be willing to help me out here? Would you be willing to do me a favor here? Here's something that I was thinking about, and I would love to be able to have this, and you don't owe me anything. And if you say no, I totally get it. I won't argue with you about it. But would you be willing to do this? I think about my days as a server. Every server I've talked to identifies with this feeling. You've got the person who says,

• 18:06Speaker 03

  I need a refill, and they ask for something, and you're just kind of like stressed. You do it because it's your job, but you're stressed. But then you've got a different person who says, hey, I know you're busy, but when you have a moment, can I have a refill or whatever it may be? And you could be so stressed by things going on in the restaurant, but you want to push everything aside to help this person, just because the way they made their request was so considerate of you. And there's so much more power in our asking when we demonstrate consideration and respect for the other person, and the willingness to accept a no if they give it. But in order to get to that point, which is a powerful place of influence to be, we've got to let go of those expectations that are disturbing our peace.

• 18:49Speaker 02

  Just a response to what you said, for people who feel like they've tried everything that we are suggesting and it's still not working, this is where bringing in someone like what I do can help quite a lot. Because having a third party who is not your friend, family, and has no stake in this other than to help you can make a big difference. I've seen so many times where especially like a couple, one of them is really struggling with clutter. The other one is fed up. Sometimes they're almost at the point of divorce and that's the biggest problem in their relationship. All of a sudden, things start changing because there is essentially a mediator in there.

• 19:22Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And you're not there to side with someone?

• 19:23Speaker 02

  No, I'm not there to side, but I'm just there to hear each person. And also, when there's someone who isn't their significant other, right, has no stake in it, but to help, they often are more willing to make those changes. And so, stuff that may not have left for decades, all of a sudden starts exiting because there is that other person there to help. So I just wanted to say, there is help out there too. If this feels like everything that we're suggesting is still not working for you.

• 19:47Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, finding common ground in those common areas. Sounds like what you're doing is sort of working with people to help them find that common ground. Sophia, I'd love to help you out with that emotional clutter. I would encourage you to sign up for a clutter counseling session with TK Coleman over at theminimalists.com/cc. It can help you sort through some of that emotional clutter that you're dealing with. I'd also like to give you a gift, the audiobook version of Very, Very Simple. TK and I recorded this audiobook. It's 12 Tools for a Simpler Home. And you can use some of these rules around your house to begin to simplify your area. But some of these rules, not to impose them onto other people, but when you show them how you're simplifying, it can help out.

• 20:28Joshua Fields Millburn?

  If they understand their why, then they might need a few hows to let go of much of that excess. So, very, very simple. It's an audiobook or you can get the, the print book over on Amazon as well. It's 69 pages, fits in your purse or your pocket. All right, we've got a lot more coming up. We still have an entire switchboard of callers to talk to. But first, real quick for our Right Here, Right Now segment, here's one thing that's going on in the life of the minimalists. The How to Let Go Tour starts in just a few weeks in Seattle, Vancouver, and New York City. As of this recording, there's still some tickets left. Head on over to theminimalists.com/tour if you want to see me during my first solo tour,

• 21:10Joshua Fields Millburn?

  the How to Let Go Tour, New York, Vancouver, Seattle. Theminimalists.com/tour to grab your tickets. And if you sign up for our simple newsletter, I'll let you know when I add other cities. It's free, no spam, no junk, no advertisements, no noise, no cost. It is free, theminimalists.com. I'll start your week with a dose of simplicity. I write a new essay every week talking about letting go, simplifying, stopping clinging, being brand agnostic, why advertisements suck, all that fun stuff in the simple newsletter. Before we move on to page two, here is a minimalist tip from Emily in Columbus, Ohio.

• 21:49Speaker 05

  Hi there. For families with young children like ours, I wanted to share a minimalist tip around children's clothes. Although we prioritize not owning more clothes than our children can wear or need, it's something we have to stay on top of as we receive lots of gifts or hand-me-downs from friends and family. We are thankful to have these and at the same time, we cannot keep or manage the amount of clothes that come in. As the saying goes, manage your things or they will manage you. This specific tip is around pajamas. On school days, our children no longer wear pajamas to bed, but instead, wear their clothes for the next day. This change really simplified our morning routine and opened up a lot of time,

• 22:33Speaker 05

  making that busy time of day a lot more peaceful. We are able to minimize the number of pajamas down to one to two sets per child. This tip works best if your children are able to wear play clothes to school or daycare that are just as comfortable to sleep in as pajamas. We found this very helpful for our family in several ways and hope you might give it a try, it could be beneficial to you. Thanks for all you do.

• 22:59Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Emily, I love that this works for your family. It would not work for me at all.

• 23:03Speaker 02

  I was just trying not to laugh, but I'm glad, I'm so glad it works for her. I've, I've only known one other person that's done this, like it can't work. I mean, you tell me why it can't work in your family. I'll tell you why it wouldn't work in mine.

• 23:11Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Oh, interesting. No, I think it works great for her. It sounds like it works really well. I, I have no judgment around whether or not it works for her. I know it wouldn't work for me because I'm a sweaty, sweaty peanut at night. That's what my daughter always says. I just sweat so much at night, like it would be, I'd wake up with just like sauna clothes on. I feel like I can't sleep in anything.

• 23:30Speaker 03

  You know why, right?

• 23:31Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Why?

• 23:32Speaker 03

  Because you'd be in your dreams hooping, you'd be like...

• 23:36Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Just dunking on everyone. You know, I had a friend growing up who did this because he had, he struggled so much in the morning. His name was Brian and we were in elementary school together. And he just would sleep in his clothes the night before and just get up. Like, he would have to leave the house at whatever it was, 6:15. His mom would have an alarm set for 6:10 and he would just get up and sort of rise out of bed like a corpse. And he was already fully dressed and, and it just never worked for me. I wouldn't, I wouldn't enjoy it at all. But I'm, I'm interested in this as a, as a broader metaphor because sometimes there's like a small change that changes everything

• 24:18Joshua Fields Millburn?

  and that has an outsized impact on your house or your family. Do you notice that with any of your clients where they make one change and it has this cascading effect where it makes the, the next day so much calmer?

• 24:29Speaker 02

  Yes, could I respond to what she said though? I'm so glad it worked like for her and my one friend that did it. But I'm thinking of my two kids. One of them, she's two, the way she dresses, she was saying like play clothes. My daughter is 10 now, she would be wearing like jeans, skirt. It just wouldn't work for her. So the outfit wouldn't be comfortable enough to sleep in. My younger one, and this is why I almost started laughing. He poops almost every night in his diaper. So if I put him in that outfit, it's going to be kind of stinky. He's got to change. So I need this, but maybe she's talking about potty, like fully potty trained kids.

• 24:57Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, that's the real reason I can't do it too. I just poop to bed every night.

• 25:02Speaker 02

  That was why I was almost laughing. I was like, I wish I could, but yeah, it's, sorry. Hey, again, like benefit of being here, I can say that kind of thing.

• 25:09Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Talk to me about some broad changes.

• 25:12Speaker 02

  Small changes though. Okay, I have a few things in mind because I think decluttering, although it can be small, it can feel very big. So let's, let's flip this a little bit. One is when you have dedicated places for things, and I'm like getting past the decluttering phase at this point, but once you and the family has dedicated places for things, like this is where we put our shoes, this is where we put whatever it is, that is a small change that everybody can benefit from, but everybody has to be on board. And I know I'm giving, some people are probably thinking, but what about those small children that can't help? To the best of their ability, even little ones, like my son, he's 20 months old. He knows where to put his shoes. I'm giving that as an example and he will put them back. And I think when it isn't all falling on one person, and I'm not saying this as a mom myself that I purposely put it on myself,

• 25:54Speaker 02

  but so often, women, moms, we do take on that labor in the home. But when we start distributing it and realizing it doesn't just have to be for us and everyone knows where things go, that change alone can eliminate so much of that overwhelming mental load.

• 26:09Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, I think a lot of people don't even realize how chaotic it is because that's just the way we've always done it. We've always just thrown the shoes in the hallway and dropped the bookbag on the living room floor and left the Legos out at night. And so, you don't realize that everyone has a role and it's key to get everyone bought in, bought in on it as well. TK, to me, Emily, it wasn't really about decluttering the pajamas here. She minimized the need for them altogether. And there's a difference, a distinction I want to make between decluttering and eliminating. Sometimes we declutter because we have too many of a thing, right?

• 26:50Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I don't need 17 spatulas or did I get all 45 coffee mugs? It's time to declutter and let some of those go. But then sometimes it makes sense to question the category itself. Like, wait a minute, I still have a toaster, but I haven't had toast in four years. It's not that I need to simply declutter. I could just eliminate that as a category because I don't, I don't use it anymore. Can you talk about that distinction?

• 27:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, we all inherit certain assumptions about what must be in a home, from what we see on media to the, the family of our own upbringing. And many of those things are negotiable. They're not wrong, but we carry all sorts of assumptions about what kinds of artwork, what kinds of decorations. Well, there gotta be posters, right? There, there has to be some art and pictures, right? There's gotta be a TV, right? And it's gotta be in the center of the room, right? There has to be this or that. And it's like, no, there doesn't have to be anything. The only question is what serves you? And the more minimal you can be, the more that's going to benefit you because every asset by its very nature has to be managed. Everything that you bring in your home is adding to your responsibilities

• 28:00Speaker 03

  and you want to make sure that the cost of managing it does not exceed the benefit of having it.

• 28:07Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Julia, let's wrap up page one here. I'm curious. What are some of the craziest things you've seen people need to declutter, want to declutter in their homes? What have you, have you started opening up drawers and cabinets and boxes and found some of the wildest things? What are they?

• 28:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm so glad that I got asked this question again. I've been asked this before, but now I can actually be candid. I always say to people, I see absolutely everything and things that you wouldn't show your friends, family, like that they don't know about. So I think the more surprising things are when you open a box that is labeled something like crayons and then you find a taxidermied animal, something like that. And you're like, oh, I didn't expect to find an alligator head here. I find loose teeth all the time in people's homes because a lot of people keep their kids' teeth, thinking their kids will want them, or they will, or stem cells, I don't know. So that usually surprises me a lot. I don't know, is this surprising to other people? But drugs, unfortunately, the hardest ones for me to find are if there are pets or young children, and then we find these things loosely

• 29:12Speaker 02

  in people's homes. And a lot of policies I have in my business are only because things, quote unquote, went wrong. Right? So the reason I have a firearm policy is because we found a loose gun in somebody's garage. And now we have a policy where people, if they have weapons, have to disclose it to us, have to have it in the safe, show it where it is. Sometimes people don't even know where these things are. And the same thing with the drugs, right? Is that they may not even know that they had that thing. But I don't know, some other things that are interesting, like historic documents. I was just mentioning beforehand, lots of horror film props. What haven't I seen? Like, I really see it all, and sometimes in very large quantities, like a whole garage full of children's toys that an adult collector had, that they were unwilling to let go of.

• 29:51Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I think she was in Rhino's house.

• 29:52Speaker 02

  I see every, like, really, everything.

• 29:55Speaker 03

  So earlier before the show, I was joking that Josh needs a TV show called Clutter Court with Judge Josh.

• 30:02Speaker 02

  Oh, that would be so good.

• 30:03Speaker 03

  And the couple, or whoever comes on, they agree ahead of time that they're just gonna go with whatever judgment he makes. I would love to see a TV show with you called Detective Ross, where you masquerade as a declutterer, and you go in and you're just kind of like decluttering. And then when you find the guns and drugs, you arrest them.

• 30:20Joshua Fields Millburn?

  She's finding all the forensic evidence. It goes deeper than that. She's solving murders.

• 30:24Speaker 02

  I feel like some of the things that I've said, even though I can't speak candidly, I prefer not to say on camera, too. Like, I'm being serious right now. I'll tell it to you, and we're not on camera, because it's too disturbing for me to even say aloud some of the things that I've seen. But I always, I think I've said this on the show before, I found $50,000 in cash in somebody's room, loosely in 100s. And he wasn't that impressed. This was a senior. He, I think, had purposely kind of strewn it about his room and drawers. But I collected it all into one spot. And I always get asked the question, did I get a tip from that? No, I did not keep any of it. It all went to him. But that's the most amount of money I've found in a single room.

• 30:55Speaker 03

  He wasn't even like, let me give you...

• 30:57Speaker 02

  No, I mean, he wasn't impressed. I thought he was gonna be impressed, like, wow, I have found all this money. He's like, oh, yeah, it was there. You know, it was just that.

• 31:02Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Sir, I found $2,500. Look how impressive this is.

• 31:08Speaker 02

  I wouldn't have this job if I started stealing from people.

• 31:11Speaker 03

  Detective Ross.

• 31:12Speaker 02

  I also get offered everything, too. Like, anytime someone's decluttering, they try to give it to me. And I, just as a policy, take nothing. The only thing I will take is a consumable, like someone gives me a bottle of water, something like that. Because almost every time, usually because people are having a hard time letting go, and they feel better if they give it directly to a person, they try to say, oh, can't you give this to your kid? No. Like, I just, as a policy, take nothing.

• 31:32Speaker 03

  Why?

• 31:33Speaker 02

  One, I don't want to clutter my own home. And two, I think that it changes the relationship I have with the clients. I don't want to have this kind of relationship with the stuff with the clients at all. I want it to be completely clean. And I think, once I start accepting it, it is also a bit contradictory to my own philosophy about stuff, if I start bringing more things that I don't need into my home. So, no, nothing. Except, as I said, like, water, or sometimes someone will order us, like, a pizza. Okay. Like, in those cases, I say yes. Nothing else.

• 31:59Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Do you ever help people sell, like, determine what things are worth selling versus what things are just worth donating?

• 32:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, in general, I remind them why I was there. I'm like, remember how you said that you've been stressed about this garage for the last 20 years, and you've been putting off, you know, selling it? So if they want to sell something, I don't facilitate the sale. Sometimes I find the right people. So, for example, there's someone I'm working with that has a large collection of magic memorabilia, which is so cool. But I'm talking, like, 25 boxes. So I found someone to connect them with in the auction world with magic. But I tell them they have to set a deadline for themselves. Otherwise, it just needs to be donated, because it's been long enough. And your time is a valuable asset you're never getting back. So, think about that, right? But I always get back to that why, and usually, for the most part, can talk them out of selling. It's never my go-to, though.

• 32:45Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Super helpful. Well, I'll tell you what, Emily, thank you so much for your thoughtful insight. If anyone else has a listener tip for the show, visit theminimists.com/podcast and record a quick message so we can feature your voice on a future episode. Up next, page two and page three. But first, let's take a quick pandiculation break. We'll be right back.

• 33:08Joshua Fields Millburn?

  All right, y'all, that is the first 33% of episode 553. We'll see you on Patreon for the full two-hour, maximal episode with Dr. Julia Ross. You know what? She brought in this, you hear this? Did you just listen to the audio? You hear that?

• 33:21Speaker 03

  Oh, God.

• 33:22Joshua Fields Millburn?

  That is cluttered ASMR, which is a new genre we're working on. She brought in, she stole a friend's junk drawer. I don't even know if she told them.

• 33:31Speaker 02

  No, I definitely did. My next door neighbor offered this to me.

• 33:33Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And so, not only did we interrogate this, but we had a lot of fun going through the junk drawer. We also answered a bunch more questions, like, when your family heirlooms are genuinely beautiful and useful and meaningful, but you simply don't have the space to keep them, how do you decide what to keep? Another caller named Hope asked, she said she treasures the handwritten notes her elderly friend shares with her each week. But since she never reads them, how can she let them go without feeling guilty? We'll also discuss what items are included in a good junk drawer. I would say, spoiler alert, it's not this drawer. Plus a million more questions and simple living segments over on the Minimalist

• 34:16Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Private Podcast on Patreon. The link is in the description. When you subscribe, you can listen to our private episodes on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Plus, you'll gain access to all of our archives, all the way back to our very first episode. Big thanks to Dr. Julia Ross for joining us today. You can find her @GoldenWestOrganizing on social media. She's on all the platforms there. And her website, GoldenWestOrganizing.com. We'll put links to all of that in the show notes. And that is our minimal episode for today. On behalf of Ryan Nicodemus, TK Coleman, Audio Ben, Spire Jeff, and Dave, Tom Cat, Professor Sean, Savvy D, and the rest of our team, I'm Joshua Fields Millburn. If you

• 34:58Joshua Fields Millburn?

  leave here with just one message, let it be this. Love people and use junk drawers, sparingly, I guess. Because the opposite never works. Thanks for listening, y'all. We'll see you next time.

• 35:12Speaker 03

  Peace.