Pod Insights The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan Verdine White (Earth, Wind & Fire) | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan About this episode Billy Corgan welcomes legendary Verdine White for a conversation about the rise of his group Earth, Wind & Fire and the vision that turned the group into one of the greatest bands in music history. Verdine reflects on leaving music conservatory at 18 to join his brother, Maurice White, and the promise that changed his life: "This is going to make you a legend." He shares unforgettable stories about Clive Davis betting on the band, the mentorship of Ramsey Lewis, recording That's the Way of the World, collaborating with illusionist Doug Henning, the Soul Train snub that nearly cost them their crossover, the game-changing performance at California Jam 1974, and what Miles Davis really thought of Earth, Wind & Fire.
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Transcript 14,970 words · 2 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Speaker 00 He said, "Man, this thing I'm getting ready to put you into is gonna make you a legend." And all I heard was like, "Magic, magic, magic."
0:09 Billy Corgan? There was something about Earth, Wind & Fire, it would seem so from another place. I didn't understand it. I loved it, but I was like, "Wow, this is so fresh."
0:19 Speaker 00 Pound for pound, the music was right there.
0:24 Billy Corgan? There had been other artists that had crossed over, but you guys seemed to just erase the lines.
0:30 Speaker 00 You know, our deal was what we were doing.
0:32 Billy Corgan? I mean, the music is unbelievable, but the joy of the band, it's real.
0:38 Speaker 00 Man, man, we musicians. That's what we do.
0:43 Billy Corgan? You're Dean White. Thank you so much. You honor me by being here.
0:47 Speaker 00 Thanks so much.
0:47 Billy Corgan? So nice to see you again.
0:48 Speaker 00 I was very excited about coming.
0:50 Billy Corgan? Thank you. Tell me if this date strikes you correctly. June of 1970, that's when you came out here
0:57 Speaker 00 Yes.
0:57 Billy Corgan? at the behest of your brother Maurice.
0:59 Speaker 00 Right.
1:00 Billy Corgan? To join what became Earth, Wind & Fire. But was it still called Salt Pepper Trio?
1:05 Speaker 00 It was Salt, the Salty Peppers.
1:07 Billy Corgan? Salty Peppers.
1:08 Speaker 00 But it was transitioning into Earth, Wind & Fire. It was. And he had just left
1:12 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:15 Speaker 00 Ramsey.
1:16 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:16 Speaker 00 In April 1970.
1:19 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:19 Speaker 00 Had been with Ramsey four and a half, five years.
1:21 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:22 Speaker 00 And then I'm, you know, I'm in college, my first year at the Conservatory of Downtown of Wabash, as you might know.
1:32 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:33 Speaker 00 And
1:33 Billy Corgan? Fellow Chicagoans.
1:34 Speaker 00 Chicago guys. Chicago. And then he asked me, "Do I want to come to California?"
1:41 Billy Corgan? Yeah. What did he sell you on?
1:46 Speaker 00 He didn't have to. He said, "You want to come to California and be in my band?"
1:53 Speaker 00 I said, yeah, sure. You know, and it was, it was a, uh, uh, a life-changing moment in a certain kind of way.
2:02 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
2:03 Speaker 00 And it was, it was, um,
2:07 Speaker 00 it was different, you know, it was, it was, it was, it was different. And, um, and I, and then I got ready to come.
2:14 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
2:14 Speaker 00 You know, they say, you know, I got, I got ready to come to get ready and, and, uh,
2:21 Speaker 00 so that was the beginning.
2:22 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
2:22 Speaker 00 Probably.
2:23 Billy Corgan? But did your brother lay out kind of a musical vision? Did he say, I want to do this or is, was there a languaging to it?
2:28 Speaker 00 No, because I kind of knew what his vision was because I would go to the rehearsals with the other Earth, Wind & Fire that he was developing, uh, Satterfield and Wade Flemings and Don Whitehead.
2:42 Billy Corgan? Hmm.
2:42 Speaker 00 That group he was developing, yeah.
2:43 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
2:44 Speaker 00 Yeah.
2:45 Billy Corgan? Um, it's interesting because I, I know the hits like everybody, but doing my deep dive to get ready for the interview and listening to the early stuff.
2:55 Speaker 00 Mm hmm.
2:56 Billy Corgan? It strikes me that from the first album, those key elements that made Earth, Wind & Fire a global act, they're already in there. They may or may not clear yet, but it's already in there. The horns and the rhythms and the feeling.
3:09 Speaker 00 That's right.
3:10 Billy Corgan? Did you feel that from the get beginning that was something different going on?
3:15 Speaker 00 Yeah, because we wanted to be different. Uh, but it didn't really become different to me till later.
3:23 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
3:23 Speaker 00 Actually later.
3:24 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
3:24 Speaker 00 You know?
3:25 Billy Corgan? Yeah, but you could, you can hear those elements. There's like whatever, I don't know. It's the sound is so identifiable.
3:30 Speaker 00 Right.
3:31 Billy Corgan? When you guys are at your absolute peak, I mean, there's only one band in the world that sounds like that.
3:35 Speaker 00 Right, right.
3:36 Billy Corgan? Which is interesting because a lot of times soul and R and B, there's a lot of sameness in it.
3:41 Speaker 00 Although we weren't at a peak then, we were just kind of getting it going.
3:45 Billy Corgan? No, what I'm saying is it's interesting that the elements are there.
3:48 Speaker 00 Yes, yes.
3:49 Billy Corgan? And the success didn't come immediately.
3:50 Speaker 00 No, no.
3:51 Billy Corgan? It's not like you put out a song and then boom, you go to the top of the charts.
3:54 Speaker 00 It was, it was a slow build, but it was a great build though.
3:56 Billy Corgan? Yeah. I was lucky to, uh, meet, uh, Ramsey Lewis one time.
4:00 Speaker 00 You met Ramsey?
4:01 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
4:03 Billy Corgan? What a gentleman.
4:04 Speaker 00 Yeah, was he, wasn't he great?
4:05 Billy Corgan? Oh, I was just in awe.
4:07 Speaker 00 Yeah, he was, he was, he was great.
4:09 Billy Corgan? I mean, I was just getting chills just talking about him.
4:11 Speaker 00 Yeah, man, Ramsey was.
4:12 Billy Corgan? What a.
4:13 Speaker 00 What a great guy, man.
4:14 Billy Corgan? Wow, so sweet. Very interested. Somebody said to me, I was at a show and they said, would you like to meet Ramsey Lewis? And I said, well, of course.
4:25 Speaker 00 Right.
4:25 Billy Corgan? I mean, I don't want to bother him. They said, no, no, come read him. And, and I came in, he said, oh, oh, hi. And he recognized me, said, sit down. And we talked for forty minutes.
4:37 Speaker 00 Mm hmm.
4:38 Billy Corgan? And one thing that I really remember in the conversation is I didn't know at that point, the connection between him and your family.
4:43 Speaker 00 Hmm, yes.
4:44 Billy Corgan? And he told me about the, the origination years of Earth, Wind & Fire.
4:48 Speaker 00 Right.
4:49 Billy Corgan? And how he saw something in your brother and he really encouraged that.
4:52 Speaker 00 That's right.
4:53 Billy Corgan? It was so humbling to hear it from him. You know, as a fan of your music, it was to hear Ramsey Lewis say, how he recognized there was something.
5:01 Speaker 00 That's right.
5:02 Billy Corgan? Yeah, it was really humbling to me.
5:04 Speaker 00 That's right.
5:04 Billy Corgan? To hear that.
5:05 Speaker 00 That's right.
5:06 Billy Corgan? That he had such a, a personal investment in your guys' future.
5:11 Speaker 00 That's right, he sure did. And you know what was interesting?
5:15 Speaker 00 Later on, Maurice ended up giving him a hit record with Sun Goddess.
5:21 Billy Corgan? Well, you say pay it forward, right?
5:23 Speaker 00 Exactly, man. And then Ramsey ended up going on tour with us.
5:27 Billy Corgan? That's so cool.
5:27 Speaker 00 Uh, on our tour, so.
5:29 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
5:30 Speaker 00 And, and Reese and Rams was always close, always close, you know.
5:34 Billy Corgan? I could see that.
5:35 Speaker 00 They were, they were always close.
5:36 Billy Corgan? Yeah. One other thing about your brother that I, I knew, but I forgot until I did my research, was his connection to Booker T.
5:45 Speaker 00 Yeah, Booker, they went to school together.
5:47 Billy Corgan? This is just another crazy connection.
5:49 Speaker 00 That's right, they went, they went to school together.
5:51 Billy Corgan? Cause you think of the music that your brother got involved with, obviously you're there with him. But then Booker T goes off in his own direction.
5:58 Speaker 00 Right, right.
5:59 Billy Corgan? It's just incredible that this.
6:00 Speaker 00 Right.
6:00 Billy Corgan? Incredible, rich musical history.
6:02 Speaker 00 Yeah, they, um, they grew up together in Memphis.
6:06 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
6:06 Speaker 00 Yeah, man. And then Booker T came to LA. Reese came to LA.
6:10 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
6:11 Speaker 00 Yeah, and then at that time, you know, we're talking about coming to LA. That was like the first big explosion in, in the world, in, in, in the United States of, of the hippie movement.
6:27 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
6:27 Speaker 00 Uh, the, uh.
6:32 Speaker 00 The Black Panther Movement, the Women's Live Movement, all at the same time.
6:37 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
6:37 Speaker 00 And then you had Woodstock, you had, you know, and you had hippies. See, when I came out here, I saw nothing but hippies.
6:46 Speaker 00 The same things I saw on television, you know, hippies up close.
6:50 Billy Corgan? Yeah. I mean, there were some hippies in Chicago, but not like out.
6:52 Speaker 00 No, not like that. I think the hippies in Chicago were trying to be hippies on the north side. Right? That was the hippest part.
7:00 Billy Corgan? They could afford to be hippies.
7:00 Speaker 00 Yeah, because it was pretty rich up there.
7:03 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
7:03 Speaker 00 But the real hippies are out here.
7:06 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
7:09 Billy Corgan? If you don't mind, and if it's not too personal, because and maybe he tells the story in his book, but this, why your brother was in Memphis and you were in Chicago, the family circumstance.
7:20 Speaker 00 Same mothers.
7:21 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
7:21 Speaker 00 Different fathers.
7:24 Billy Corgan? Okay.
7:24 Speaker 00 I'm Verdine Junior from my dad Verdine Senior.
7:28 Billy Corgan? Okay.
7:29 Speaker 00 And, um, and what happened was that, uh, my mother had Reese when, uh, he was, uh, when she was young.
7:39 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
7:40 Speaker 00 Like 16, 17, you know, which was.
7:43 Billy Corgan? It's tough. And that was a different world too, back then.
7:45 Speaker 00 At, at that time. And, um,
7:49 Speaker 00 but she would always go visit him, you know, uh, she came up to Chicago because a lot of African Americans came
7:58 Speaker 00 to Chicago for work.
8:00 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
8:00 Speaker 00 You know, the Great Migration, you know what I mean?
8:02 Billy Corgan? Well, that's why we had such an incredible history with the Blues because of all the great artists that came up.
8:07 Speaker 00 That's right.
8:08 Billy Corgan? The South and.
8:09 Speaker 00 That's right. Brought up to the nightclubs and things like that. And, and, and the workers, there was more jobs.
8:15 Billy Corgan? Yeah. What, what kind of work did your mom do?
8:18 Speaker 00 Well,
8:20 Speaker 00 she, I think was a domestic down there, from what I understand.
8:24 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
8:24 Speaker 00 But then she became an elevator operator where she met my, my father, you know, getting on the elevator. And the rest of the system.
8:32 Billy Corgan? Going up.
8:32 Speaker 00 Yeah, you're going up, right, right. And, and nine kids later, right?
8:36 Billy Corgan? Yeah. Wow.
8:36 Speaker 00 Right. Wow. Wow.
8:38 Billy Corgan? I didn't know you came from that. Wow.
8:39 Speaker 00 Yeah, man. Yeah.
8:41 Billy Corgan? That's wild.
8:42 Speaker 00 And, um, so it was, um, so that was kind of like the, the difference.
8:49 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
8:51 Speaker 00 Why that happened like to, you know?
8:54 Billy Corgan? Yeah. No, I get it. Um, so back to you coming out here.
9:01 Billy Corgan? I saw that you guys did your first album at Sunset Sound. Now, were you, you were on Capitol Records? Is that, does that?
9:06 Speaker 00 Well, we were on, yeah, Capitol Records.
9:13 Speaker 00 Stacks for one of the singles.
9:17 Speaker 00 Capitol Records, but the records that we did over at Sunset Sound was under, under the Warner Brothers.
9:23 Billy Corgan? Oh, okay. Okay.
9:25 Speaker 00 Under the Warner Brothers.
9:26 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
9:28 Speaker 00 Regime at the time, you know? And, uh, and I went to Sunset Sound maybe a few years ago. It looked so small. It looks so, it used to be so big to me, you know?
9:41 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
9:41 Speaker 00 It, it, it looked so small going up that studio ramp.
9:45 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
9:45 Speaker 00 Up there.
9:46 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
9:46 Speaker 00 The cars in the parking lot.
9:47 Billy Corgan? Oh, yeah.
9:48 Speaker 00 You know?
9:49 Billy Corgan? Still the same.
9:50 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah, it, it, nothing's changed.
9:51 Billy Corgan? Do you remember what room you guys were in?
9:53 Speaker 00 We were in the big room.
9:54 Billy Corgan? Okay.
9:54 Speaker 00 That big room?
9:55 Billy Corgan? Yeah, yeah.
9:55 Speaker 00 Oh, and, um,
10:00 Speaker 00 it, it was, we cut some good records out of that.
10:02 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
10:02 Speaker 00 We cut some good records. That's where Clive Davis came to see us.
10:05 Billy Corgan? Okay.
10:06 Speaker 00 Because we were in a transition, Warner's to Columbia.
10:09 Billy Corgan? Yeah, you do two albums, maybe with the one label situation.
10:12 Speaker 00 With Warner, with Warner.
10:13 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
10:14 Speaker 00 And then what happened was that, uh, Clive, um, came and saw us.
10:21 Speaker 00 And, um,
10:22 Billy Corgan? Saw something.
10:23 Speaker 00 And that was it.
10:24 Billy Corgan? What do you think Clive saw at that, at that moment?
10:27 Speaker 00 Well, uh,
10:30 Speaker 00 he was in the midst of losing
10:33 Speaker 00 Sly Stone.
10:34 Billy Corgan? Hmm.
10:35 Speaker 00 And I think that he wanted
10:38 Speaker 00 another urban group.
10:39 Billy Corgan? Hmm.
10:39 Speaker 00 You know, uh, another black group, you know? And, and, and, and Clive being sort of a revolutionary, innovative, doing something that nobody else ever did, brought us on the scene.
10:52 Billy Corgan? Wow.
10:53 Speaker 00 And, uh, and Columbia Records did a great job with us. Uh, put a lot of money behind us, brought us to Europe, gave us the exposure that most African Americans never really got.
11:03 Billy Corgan? Yeah. Yeah, he, he always stood behind what he believed in with music.
11:09 Speaker 00 Right.
11:09 Billy Corgan? For sure. If he believed, he went all in.
11:11 Speaker 00 All in, all in.
11:13 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
11:14 Speaker 00 Yes.
11:14 Billy Corgan? Yeah, there is definitely a shift in, in production and feeling when you guys make that shift.
11:19 Speaker 00 Right, well, we had time to make the records.
11:20 Billy Corgan? Was that what it was?
11:21 Speaker 00 We didn't have, we didn't have to rush.
11:23 Billy Corgan? Okay.
11:23 Speaker 00 You know what I mean? It was, all we knew was the music.
11:27 Billy Corgan? Yeah. Now, there's I never felt it, but I mean, I get the overt version of it and why people would, because it's what I would call lazy take. But early on, you guys, we can be compared to Sly and the Family Stone.
11:38 Speaker 00 Right.
11:39 Billy Corgan? And that type of stuff. And of course, there were bands that were successful around the time, like Undisputed Truth, you know, there was this.
11:44 Speaker 00 That's right. And then don't forget now Motown was big.
11:46 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
11:47 Speaker 00 So, you know.
11:48 Billy Corgan? Well, Motown, yeah, Motown, people, of course, they focus on Motown in the sixties, but Motown in the seventies was still rocking.
11:53 Speaker 00 They were still rocking in the eighties too. They, you know, um.
11:57 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
11:57 Speaker 00 Uh, Berry had it down.
11:59 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
11:59 Speaker 00 I mean, but then, but most people thought that most African Americans would go to Motown.
12:07 Billy Corgan? Right.
12:08 Speaker 00 Whereas that wasn't really our deal, you know, our deal was what we were doing, you know?
12:12 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
12:13 Speaker 00 And, um, um, and of course, later on, Berry and Maurice became great friends, uh, really respectful towards each other.
12:22 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
12:22 Speaker 00 You know, uh, and at, uh, at the time, she, uh, Berry wouldn't have gotten Earth and Fire. He wouldn't have gotten what that was, but it was too different for them.
12:32 Billy Corgan? Can you, can you kind of quantify that a little bit for, for people who maybe don't know the music past the hits or something like? What in your, because you know, from the inside out, we have a different perception, you know? As you're standing there in nineteen seventy-three or something, you know? What was it that you thought the band had that was different and or voiced differently?
12:51 Speaker 00 Than Motown?
12:52 Billy Corgan? Or just anything?
12:53 Speaker 00 It was different. Well, it was different anyway because of the, um,
12:58 Speaker 00 the work. You know, the work that we did, the music, the musicality.
13:04 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
13:04 Speaker 00 It was coming off.
13:05 Billy Corgan? Jazz influences and the samba influences.
13:07 Speaker 00 Right. It was coming a little bit off of jazz and it wasn't overtly commercial.
13:12 Billy Corgan? That's true.
13:13 Speaker 00 It was not overtly commercial. And, uh, and then we hit it the right time when AM and FM radio.
13:20 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
13:21 Speaker 00 Came.
13:21 Billy Corgan? And started playing the longer songs.
13:23 Speaker 00 That you write the longer, the longer albums.
13:25 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
13:25 Speaker 00 Uh, uh, the longer tracks, man. Yeah.
13:29 Billy Corgan? You guys did have a rep for, because I remember those times, even though I was young, my father was a huge fan. So I, I heard all the music in the house, but you guys had a rep for being an album band, which was, which was a compliment.
13:41 Speaker 00 Right.
13:42 Billy Corgan? Like you weren't just a singles band, like you made great albums.
13:45 Speaker 00 Right.
13:45 Billy Corgan? Your albums were worth listening to.
13:47 Speaker 00 Right. It was, it was, uh.
13:51 Speaker 00 I mean like musical.
13:52 Billy Corgan? Fair.
13:53 Speaker 00 You know what I mean? I mean, really musical. And it was, it was, uh, uh, really great for me because those are my first records.
14:00 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
14:00 Speaker 00 That I had ever done.
14:01 Billy Corgan? Yeah, wow.
14:02 Speaker 00 Ever done.
14:03 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
14:04 Speaker 00 Ever, ever done.
14:05 Billy Corgan? See, you're, you're bringing back memories for me because, you know, as I've said, my dad was a huge fan and he played your music in the house. And I remember the first time I consciously, like, I put on one of your records myself. And I just remember being so shocked because my father only really listened to soul. But there was something about Earth, Wind & Fire, it would seem so from another place. I, I didn't understand it. I loved it, but I was like, wow, this is so fresh.
14:36 Speaker 00 Right.
14:37 Billy Corgan? The feeling, the production, the, the, I don't know, the rhythms and the harmonies, it was just like, wow.
14:43 Speaker 00 Right.
14:43 Billy Corgan? Psychedelic.
14:45 Speaker 00 That's right. That's right. So when we got to the Last Days and Times, that was the first record for Clive.
14:51 Speaker 00 That's really when we started to really get it together.
14:56 Billy Corgan? Yeah. Oh, you can hear it.
14:57 Speaker 00 Yeah.
14:58 Billy Corgan? Were you doing a lot of roadwork at that point?
15:00 Speaker 00 We were starting to.
15:01 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
15:01 Speaker 00 Uh, uh, we were an opening act.
15:03 Billy Corgan? For?
15:04 Speaker 00 Everybody. Anybody, anybody.
15:06 Billy Corgan? I love, I love this stuff. So tell me.
15:08 Speaker 00 Everybody.
15:08 Billy Corgan? I saw where you guys were opening for, uh, like John Sebastian.
15:11 Speaker 00 That's right. We're open for, for John. That's right. We're open for John.
15:14 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
15:15 Speaker 00 Uh, um, and, um, uh, Curtis Mayfield.
15:21 Billy Corgan? Not too bad.
15:22 Speaker 00 Not too bad for, for the beginning. Um.
15:25 Billy Corgan? Did you know Curtis as a person?
15:28 Billy Corgan? I mean, did you get to know Curtis personally?
15:29 Speaker 00 Late, later.
15:30 Billy Corgan? Oh, okay.
15:31 Speaker 00 Maurice knew him.
15:31 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
15:32 Speaker 00 But don't forget, I'm saying I'm 18 years old. So nobody, nobody didn't want to know me. Nobody got me. Nobody, you know, oh, that's, that's his brother. So anyway, how's the family?
15:42 Billy Corgan? I love that you're still the little brother in the band.
15:43 Speaker 00 Exactly. You know, and, um, um, so, um.
15:51 Speaker 00 So it was a lot going on.
15:52 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
15:53 Speaker 00 All at the same time.
15:54 Billy Corgan? Yeah. How was the reception of, let's call it the general public, you know what I mean?
15:59 Speaker 00 It actually was cool.
16:00 Billy Corgan? Yeah. Yeah.
16:02 Speaker 00 It was cool. We were, we were, we were cool.
16:05 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
16:05 Speaker 00 Then I was cool. I started getting cool because I was in a band. I mean, I was actually a real musician.
16:11 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
16:12 Speaker 00 Yeah, man.
16:13 Billy Corgan? Were there, uh, were there guys that you looked up to on the bass? I mean, your, your style is very distinctive. So, but I mean, was there somebody that you thought, wow, like that guy or?
16:25 Speaker 00 Oh, yeah. The, the, the person that taught me, the late, great Louis Satterfield, who played on all of those Chess records.
16:32 Billy Corgan? Right.
16:33 Speaker 00 With Maurice.
16:33 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
16:34 Speaker 00 Rescue Me and.
16:35 Billy Corgan? I saw your brother play drums on that.
16:38 Speaker 00 Yeah. You never saw Maurice play live, right?
16:41 Billy Corgan? No, no.
16:41 Speaker 00 He was great. Great.
16:44 Billy Corgan? Well, you would know. You're in there.
16:45 Speaker 00 I mean, he was great. And he had, he had both things together. He, he had the jazz thing together.
16:51 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
16:52 Speaker 00 And he had the funk thing together. And he had the R and B thing together all at once. Whereas, you know, you get, you get guys like the late, great Tony Williams, they were primarily jazz cats.
17:01 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
17:02 Speaker 00 They didn't do a beat.
17:04 Billy Corgan? Right. And you know, with those records, if you can't lay it down, that, that record ain't working.
17:09 Speaker 00 No, no, it's not coming out.
17:10 Billy Corgan? This is not Pro Tools time.
17:11 Speaker 00 No, no, that's right. It's not coming. No, no, no, no, no.
17:13 Billy Corgan? This is, it's in there.
17:14 Speaker 00 It's, it's, it's staying, it's staying right in the pocket.
17:16 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
17:17 Speaker 00 And, um, uh,
17:21 Speaker 00 and so Maurice had, he had, he had both things together.
17:24 Billy Corgan? Yeah. Do you, do you feel looking back, uh, I always perceived as a musician, your brother was kind of like a musical savant. Do you, do you, do you see him in that light or? You know what I mean?
17:36 Speaker 00 Yeah.
17:38 Speaker 00 You know, he, you know, he knew, he knew his stuff. And, uh,
17:45 Speaker 00 and I know when he called me to come out to California, so I said, I said, what about all my schooling? That's what I was, I said, you have my schooling? He said, I'll teach you everything you need to know out here. Now get here, you know? And it was, and it was a great way to, to starting to being an adult and things like that.
18:00 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
18:00 Speaker 00 Yeah.
18:00 Billy Corgan? Uh, I, I did see this and I, I wanted to bring it up. I didn't know this about your history. Sweet, Sweetback's Badass Song.
18:07 Speaker 00 Right.
18:07 Billy Corgan? Which is considered the first Blasphematization film.
18:10 Speaker 00 That's right.
18:10 Billy Corgan? As they're commonly known.
18:11 Speaker 00 And it was, uh, a huge movie too.
18:14 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
18:15 Speaker 00 It was huge. It was like.
18:18 Speaker 00 For that era, a blockbuster.
18:20 Billy Corgan? Well, he he shot the movie on his own, kind of.
18:22 Speaker 00 On his own?
18:22 Billy Corgan? Yeah, like Nineteen Days and.
18:25 Speaker 00 Yeah, Nineteen Days, uh.
18:31 Speaker 00 On Stax Records.
18:32 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
18:33 Speaker 00 Uh, Melvin Van Peebles, uh. Mario's dad, Mario Van Peebles, a great director, actor.
18:42 Billy Corgan? Yeah, yeah.
18:43 Speaker 00 And Mario was in the movie.
18:44 Billy Corgan? And, um. Now, I read this. You. On set, there's, there were rumors of unsimulated sex scenes. Do you know about this?
18:53 Speaker 00 Well, we weren't on those scenes. We were just doing the music.
18:56 Billy Corgan? I would hope.
18:57 Speaker 00 No, no, uh, um, I don't know if we could have took that, you know, and, uh. It it had been over, I said, man, I knew we should have claimed to California. Oh, yeah. You know what I mean? And, uh, uh, but, um, um, we shot the, uh. The soundtrack in about three days.
19:17 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
19:17 Speaker 00 There are still base mistakes on there.
19:20 Billy Corgan? Really?
19:20 Speaker 00 Yeah, that, that, uh, uh, I remember I got the album.
19:26 Speaker 00 Uh, as a gift and, uh. And and I put it on, I said, let me see if the mistake is still there.
19:35 Speaker 00 Put it on, I said, it's still there. Cause that was the days where you didn't have a lot of time to overdub.
19:40 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
19:41 Speaker 00 You know.
19:41 Billy Corgan? Well, three days.
19:42 Speaker 00 Now, the whole band recorded at the same time.
19:44 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
19:44 Speaker 00 You know, and, uh, but it was a great experience working with Melvin.
19:48 Billy Corgan? Yeah, that's such a cool thing. Um, I know that your brother didn't become like. This kind of visionary producer right away. I know you were guys working with a guy named Whistert, Mr. Whistert.
19:59 Speaker 00 Uh, Joe. Charles Stepney.
20:02 Billy Corgan? But what, in the beginning, it was Mr. Whistert, right? And Joe Whistert?
20:04 Speaker 00 Joe, that's right. Joe, at that time.
20:08 Speaker 00 You didn't really have independent African American producers.
20:12 Billy Corgan? They kind of gave you this guy.
20:13 Speaker 00 They gave you this guy. He was the house producer.
20:16 Billy Corgan? Yeah. Was he encouraging of your brother's sort of.
20:19 Speaker 00 Absolutely.
20:20 Billy Corgan? Production kind of.
20:21 Speaker 00 Joe was very cool. Absolutely.
20:22 Billy Corgan? That's cool to hear, yeah.
20:23 Speaker 00 Uh. Uh. But Joe was there to watch, uh, watch over us.
20:29 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
20:30 Speaker 00 Yeah, you know, you got nine black guys in there, man. You might burn the studio down, man. You know what I mean? You know, this, you know what I mean? And oh.
20:39 Billy Corgan? That's a lot of testosterone.
20:40 Speaker 00 That's a lot of testosterone in there, man. You know what I mean? And um.
20:45 Billy Corgan? You know, those horn players, you know.
20:46 Speaker 00 Oh, yeah, your horn players, man.
20:48 Billy Corgan? They got a lot of time on their hands.
20:50 Speaker 00 A lot of time. They'll burn the whole place down. And you were talking about you, you in the Black Power movement too. Black Power, Ungawa, burn it down, right? And take him with you. And um, uh, so, uh.
21:03 Billy Corgan? But you brought up Mr. Stepney too as well.
21:05 Speaker 00 Yeah, Charles, Charles, he worked on the last season times record. The other two records, uh, uh, we did on our own with, with Joe.
21:16 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
21:16 Speaker 00 Then Charles really came in there, came in there really on, on, uh, on, uh, Open Our Eyes. Charles is great. He was our Charles, he was our Quincy Jones.
21:28 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
21:29 Speaker 00 He could play it. He could write it. He could produce it. And he was the only one really that really Reese listened to.
21:36 Billy Corgan? Okay.
21:37 Speaker 00 I mean, Reese listened to us, you know, like, you know, you know, one end out the other. But Charles knew his stuff. And Charles had worked with Ramsey.
21:45 Billy Corgan? Ah.
21:45 Speaker 00 On the, uh, a great record that Ramsey did, a remake of Beatles songs.
21:51 Billy Corgan? Okay, I need to find that then.
21:53 Speaker 00 Uh, yeah, you gotta find like Mother's Nature Sun.
21:55 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
21:56 Speaker 00 Um, Charles did those records.
21:59 Billy Corgan? Okay. Is it that, is that, that, uh, Mr. Stepney kind of pulled out like the sophistication that was kind of hiding there? And then when it was there, then we came kind of like, oh, this is, this is it.
22:09 Speaker 00 Absolutely. And then he taught us.
22:12 Billy Corgan? Hmm.
22:12 Speaker 00 Uh, a lot.
22:14 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
22:15 Speaker 00 As players. And, and, and he slowed it down. He slowed it down.
22:20 Billy Corgan? Can you explain that a little bit?
22:22 Speaker 00 When we were doing the Sweet Sweet Back.
22:25 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
22:25 Speaker 00 We never had a chance to overdub.
22:28 Billy Corgan? Right.
22:30 Speaker 00 When we did Open Our Eyes and That's Where the World, we cut the tracks. And Sep would take us individually and say, okay, I'm gonna need you tomorrow all day. Bring a sandwich. And then he would go over everything that I was missing on the track. You know, he showed me a double stop. He showed me this. He said, now let's try that again. Go to him and then he said.
22:51 Billy Corgan? Oh, wow.
22:52 Speaker 00 And, and, and a compliment, uh, that he would give you. He would say, I didn't know you could play like that. It was so encouraging. And it made the, uh.
23:06 Speaker 00 Your work more pristine. Every note was right. And everything was right.
23:12 Billy Corgan? When I think of you guys, it's like, everything's so organized.
23:16 Speaker 00 Right.
23:16 Billy Corgan? It feels like a party, but it's like, everything's like, uh, uh.
23:19 Speaker 00 That's right. It feels like a party, but it's music.
23:22 Billy Corgan? Oh, yeah.
23:22 Speaker 00 And actually, you learn. If you try to follow that stuff, you'd be saying, oh, my God.
23:27 Billy Corgan? Yeah. Well, that's why, because I grew up with a musician father, he would be like, now, these guys. You were held up as like the shiny example of like, that's music.
23:38 Speaker 00 Right.
23:39 Billy Corgan? Which is cool for me.
23:40 Speaker 00 Yeah.
23:41 Billy Corgan? Because then I would listen, I'd try to understand what it was that he was hearing.
23:44 Speaker 00 Right, man.
23:45 Billy Corgan? Beyond, I like it or I don't like.
23:47 Speaker 00 Right, right.
23:50 Billy Corgan? Explain to me a little bit about, I know we're kind of skipping around time a little bit, but there's this moment where like, some of the original band kind of leaves.
23:58 Speaker 00 Right, the original from the first band left.
24:01 Billy Corgan? Yeah. So it ends up just being you and your brother.
24:04 Speaker 00 That's right. It was just me and Reese.
24:05 Billy Corgan? Wow.
24:06 Speaker 00 And.
24:06 Billy Corgan? Was that like, I don't know, I don't want to project that, but was that like, you guys were like, it's going the wrong way, or?
24:12 Speaker 00 No, I just don't think there was a meeting of the minds. And.
24:17 Billy Corgan? What did those guys want as opposed to what you guys want?
24:19 Speaker 00 I don't know, because Maurice and them would have meetings, and I was never involved in the meeting.
24:22 Billy Corgan? You're still the kid brother, yeah?
24:23 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, I didn't know, I didn't know, like, what, like, what meeting, and what is this? And, and so after those things, Philip Bailey joined us.
24:33 Billy Corgan? Right.
24:33 Speaker 00 Who was actually a musical director for another group on Warner Brothers.
24:37 Billy Corgan? Okay. What band was that? Do you remember?
24:41 Speaker 00 It'll come to me in a minute.
24:42 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
24:42 Speaker 00 Yeah, but.
24:43 Billy Corgan? But I mean, what a, what a voice.
24:45 Speaker 00 What a voice.
24:46 Billy Corgan? When I saw you guys a few years ago, I think he was 71 at the time, he was hitting notes that were like.
24:52 Speaker 00 Right.
24:53 Billy Corgan? It's like, what a voice.
24:54 Speaker 00 Right.
24:56 Speaker 00 Right, man. And.
25:01 Speaker 00 He had a voice then, still got it.
25:03 Billy Corgan? I bet.
25:03 Speaker 00 And a wonderful guy too, really great guy. And a great musician.
25:10 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
25:10 Speaker 00 In his own right, solo artist in his own right, you know.
25:13 Billy Corgan? Phil Collins. You know, it's like, oh yeah, we found Philip Bailey.
25:15 Speaker 00 Exactly, exactly.
25:17 Billy Corgan? He was, he was over at the corner, you know, just hanging out.
25:19 Speaker 00 That's right, that's right. But he had moved to Los Angeles.
25:22 Billy Corgan? Yeah, but still, what a beautiful marriage.
25:26 Speaker 00 Absolutely.
25:27 Billy Corgan? Right. Um, I saw this, uh, when you guys start figuring out what becomes like the quintessential Earth, Wind & Fire sound, I saw where Rolling Stone called it a cosmic choir.
25:39 Speaker 00 Yeah.
25:39 Billy Corgan? And I like that.
25:40 Speaker 00 Yeah.
25:41 Billy Corgan? Cause there was always this kind of celestial quality to your music.
25:45 Speaker 00 And you know, and you know, it was a big deal for us to get into Rolling Stone magazine. That was, that was like the holy grail at the time, you know? When we got in there, you know what I mean? Uh, we said, oh man, we arrived.
25:58 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
25:59 Speaker 00 You know?
26:01 Billy Corgan? Yeah, I mean, there's definitely, if you look at it from a historical point of view, you guys seem to blow the market wide open.
26:06 Speaker 00 Yes.
26:07 Billy Corgan? There had been other artists that had crossed over, but you guys seemed to just erase the lines.
26:13 Speaker 00 Yeah.
26:13 Billy Corgan? Did you feel that at the time?
26:15 Speaker 00 Well, I, I knew we were hitting the mark, you know, we were happy we were hitting the mark, uh, but we were hitting the mark with great music too. It's just like, we weren't blowing it open because we blew it open.
26:25 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
26:25 Speaker 00 You know, we blew it open because the, the music was there.
26:28 Billy Corgan? Well, it's, I mean, you tell me, but I, going back through your catalog to talk to you, there's no compromise. Do you feel that when I say it like that? It's like, you're one of those bands where I don't feel you guys, like you're, you're very much doing your trip.
26:43 Speaker 00 Oh yeah, we're doing our trip. That's right. We were doing our trip.
26:46 Billy Corgan? It's not like you guys are trying to bend and find the market, like the market comes to you.
26:50 Speaker 00 That's right. And we had, we had, uh, um, we had the goods too, though.
26:55 Billy Corgan? Oh, yeah.
26:56 Speaker 00 We had the goods, man. I mean, the goods.
27:00 Billy Corgan? Uh, your brother Fred White joins at some point.
27:03 Speaker 00 Yes, Fred. Yes, yes. My, my baby brother, God rest his soul. What a wonderful kid. Baby, he's a baby.
27:10 Billy Corgan? Was it hard being in a band as three brothers or was it a good thing? Or is it, is it just?
27:15 Speaker 00 It's like just, see with us, it wasn't that a big of a deal.
27:18 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
27:18 Speaker 00 Reece said, we're going to the studio. I said, okay, what time? Uh, two o'clock. Oh, what time's Freddie get there? I told him two, he'll be there at four and uh, and Freddie had played with Donny Hathaway.
27:27 Billy Corgan? Right. I saw that. And somebody I didn't expect, Little Feet, maybe?
27:31 Speaker 00 Little Feet. That's right. With Lo George.
27:33 Billy Corgan? Wow.
27:34 Speaker 00 With Lo George and those guys.
27:35 Billy Corgan? Wow, that's his cool musician.
27:37 Speaker 00 That's, that's some different, with Lo George, man. That was a great group.
27:40 Billy Corgan? That, that Louisiana kind of.
27:41 Speaker 00 Yeah, man, that, that, that was, that was great. You know what I mean? And uh,
27:45 Billy Corgan? That's cool.
27:46 Speaker 00 Uh, Little Feet was a great group. Lo was great, man. Really underrated.
27:51 Billy Corgan? Still?
27:52 Speaker 00 Underrated. Underrated. It was underrated.
27:54 Billy Corgan? Wow.
27:55 Speaker 00 And uh, um, and Fred was to keep the pocket. And then as Maurice started transitioning more as producer, Fred did the drums.
28:05 Billy Corgan? Right.
28:05 Speaker 00 Things like that. And now one thing about Freddie, which I was always like sort of envious and jealous of him. When Maurice had played the tracks, before we go in the studio. Like Freddie wouldn't like, you know, I, it's a demo of the song, blah, blah, blah. Freddie wouldn't show up for the demos. I'd be there listening, trying to get it together, trying to get it. Reece played the track right before we cut it. Freddie could remember it the first time down. First time down and he wasn't even there. And uh, I'd have to listen. I said, I had to take it home.
28:41 Billy Corgan? Yeah, yeah.
28:42 Speaker 00 I gotta listen in the car. I gotta get into it. I gotta, you know, uh, I gotta have a cassette deck at the time, by the bed. So I, you know, so I could get in there and nail it, you know, but he was so brilliant, so young.
28:55 Billy Corgan? Some guys are just like that, right?
28:56 Speaker 00 Yeah. He, he just had it down.
28:58 Billy Corgan? Yeah. I saw when you guys played Cal Jam 74, which is a legendary.
29:03 Speaker 00 California Jam.
29:03 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
29:04 Speaker 00 Yes.
29:05 Billy Corgan? Day of music. Two hundred, two hundred fifty thousand people live on ABC.
29:09 Speaker 00 Right, yes. Don Persson, right?
29:10 Billy Corgan? I went and watched you guys playing. There you are in your yellow pants, just rocking out.
29:15 Speaker 00 And, and my wife patting on the shoes. You know what I mean? Um.
29:20 Billy Corgan? Was that kind of a, I don't want to be overly simplistic, but was that kind of a breakout moment?
29:26 Billy Corgan? Or is that?
29:26 Speaker 00 That was a breakout moment crossover wise.
29:29 Billy Corgan? Okay, that's kind of what I was after.
29:30 Speaker 00 To the African American public, we were, we were known. You know, on all the black stations, the DJs, the records, things like that. But on, uh, with that, that was a big breakthrough, uh, through moment because we only had Soul Train.
29:46 Speaker 00 That's all we had.
29:47 Billy Corgan? That was it?
29:48 Speaker 00 That was it. And, um.
29:50 Billy Corgan? And sadly for a lot of great African American artists, that was it.
29:53 Speaker 00 That was it.
29:54 Billy Corgan? Was Soul Train.
29:55 Speaker 00 And, and it was limiting.
29:56 Billy Corgan? What was the gentleman's name who ran?
29:57 Speaker 00 Don Cornelius.
29:58 Billy Corgan? Don Cornelius.
29:58 Speaker 00 And, and Don was a, a DJ.
30:01 Billy Corgan? Right. What a voice.
30:01 Speaker 00 In Chicago on WVON.
30:03 Billy Corgan? That's right.
30:03 Speaker 00 The voice of the Negro. Right? Right? And.
30:08 Billy Corgan? Well, I mean, to me, Don was the pathway by which I, which I found great soul music.
30:13 Speaker 00 Right. And later on, Don said, the biggest mistake that he made was not having us on Soul Train. Cause see, we wanted to be on Soul Train.
30:20 Billy Corgan? I bet.
30:21 Speaker 00 But we wanted to play live.
30:23 Billy Corgan? Uh, James Brown played live on Soul Train.
30:26 Speaker 00 Right. And, uh, but Don wouldn't let us play live.
30:30 Billy Corgan? Any reason? Just too much of a hassle?
30:32 Speaker 00 Uh, and looking back at it,
30:35 Speaker 00 uh, maybe we should have lip sync because that's what everybody else was doing. You know, I mean, we, but don't forget that we were elitist.
30:41 Billy Corgan? Well.
30:42 Speaker 00 And they were.
30:42 Billy Corgan? Rightly so.
30:43 Speaker 00 And we had that kind of music that you, this, this music is too good to be, uh, pretending to play.
30:48 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
30:48 Speaker 00 On a, on a record.
30:49 Billy Corgan? Yeah. Same for us. Will we be asked to lip sync? We always think like.
30:52 Speaker 00 He said, no, no, man, we're not, man. We play, man, man, we musicians. That's what we do. You know what I mean? We, we don't need no record, no, you know, no, uh, no tape. You're right. So, um, um. But Don was a good guy and, and he always came over and said, man, that's the biggest mistake I ever made, you know?
31:13 Billy Corgan? Especially when you guys got huge.
31:15 Speaker 00 Yeah. Right. Because nobody knew what, no one knows how big anybody's gonna get.
31:21 Billy Corgan? Yeah, but you guys got really big. Cal Jam, you guys played with the Eagles, Seals and Crofts.
31:26 Speaker 00 That's right.
31:27 Billy Corgan? Black Sabbath, Deep Purple.
31:28 Speaker 00 Right.
31:29 Billy Corgan? And Emerson, Lake and Palm.
31:30 Speaker 00 Yeah, ELP, right. Yeah, man. I remember them guys, man. Right, right, right, right. That was a, um.
31:38 Speaker 00 That was a great show. We were, uh.
31:40 Billy Corgan? It's legendary now. That's, that day is legendary.
31:42 Speaker 00 I think we were number two on the bill.
31:46 Billy Corgan? I think you followed.
31:47 Speaker 00 Seals and Cross?
31:48 Billy Corgan? Seals and Cross.
31:48 Speaker 00 We followed Seals and Cross, right?
31:50 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
31:50 Speaker 00 And, uh, and you know, now you have laminates.
31:54 Billy Corgan? Right.
31:55 Speaker 00 Uh, and at that time, it was a little strict. You know, with that, that, that concert was a little strict backstage.
32:03 Billy Corgan? Bet.
32:03 Speaker 00 The politics. So you wore the laminate with a number on it.
32:07 Billy Corgan? Mm hmm.
32:08 Speaker 00 That let them know, okay, you came on two.
32:11 Billy Corgan? Oh, I see.
32:12 Speaker 00 When you get off, you gotta get out of there.
32:15 Billy Corgan? Okay.
32:19 Speaker 00 Right? So that's what happened with that particular.
32:22 Billy Corgan? So you didn't get to see the show?
32:24 Speaker 00 No, because they wouldn't let us see it.
32:26 Billy Corgan? Oh, my goodness.
32:26 Speaker 00 They wouldn't let us come out and see the show.
32:28 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
32:29 Speaker 00 They couldn't.
32:30 Billy Corgan? There's this famous clip where Ritchie Blackmore, the guitar player for, for Deep Purple, rams his, he was mad about the, I guess the show was running late or something. So he, he, do you ever see this clip?
32:41 Speaker 00 No.
32:42 Billy Corgan? He takes his guitar and he rams it through the, the lens of the camera. Like for real, like.
32:49 Speaker 00 Wow.
32:50 Billy Corgan? Yeah, for real. And then he lights his amps on fire.
32:53 Speaker 00 Oh, okay.
32:54 Billy Corgan? You guys missed all that.
32:56 Speaker 00 No, we missed all, and, and, and, and we weren't into that stuff. No way. You know what I mean? We couldn't, we couldn't, we couldn't ram nothing and, you know, said anything. We couldn't afford it.
33:04 Billy Corgan? That's right. That's right. Every time I ever broke a guitar, I was like, do I really want to pay for another one?
33:09 Speaker 00 Real try.
33:10 Billy Corgan? Um, is it true that, uh, you talked about that's the way of the world album? But it's true that it was supposed to be for a movie and you guys saw the movie and thought the movie was gonna be a bomb and?
33:19 Speaker 00 Oh, that's where the world.
33:20 Billy Corgan? Yeah. Can you, can you, is that a true story?
33:21 Speaker 00 That's where the world was, uh,
33:26 Speaker 00 Six Shore. And Six Shore had produced Superfly.
33:30 Billy Corgan? Okay.
33:31 Speaker 00 And of course, that record was big.
33:33 Billy Corgan? Hello, yeah.
33:33 Speaker 00 So we think, oh, we're gonna be with Six Shore. Great. Super. And, uh, uh, so we shot the, the movie.
33:43 Speaker 00 And it was Harvey Keitel's first movie.
33:45 Billy Corgan? Okay.
33:46 Speaker 00 Harvey's first movie, you know.
33:47 Billy Corgan? Before all the.
33:48 Speaker 00 Yeah, hoopla. The hoopla. And and he plays a producer.
33:53 Billy Corgan? Okay.
33:54 Speaker 00 That's trying to break a black act.
33:56 Billy Corgan? Okay.
33:56 Speaker 00 That was the premise of it. And.
33:59 Billy Corgan? And you're and you guys are the act?
34:01 Speaker 00 We were the act.
34:01 Billy Corgan? Okay.
34:02 Speaker 00 Uh.
34:02 Billy Corgan? I've never seen the movie, that's.
34:03 Speaker 00 Yeah, we were called. That Earth and Fire, we were called The Group.
34:08 Billy Corgan? The Group.
34:08 Speaker 00 Right.
34:09 Billy Corgan? That's weird.
34:10 Speaker 00 Weird, isn't it?
34:11 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
34:11 Speaker 00 Corny, right?
34:12 Billy Corgan? Right.
34:13 Speaker 00 And um.
34:16 Speaker 00 But the record was so good.
34:20 Billy Corgan? Hello.
34:21 Speaker 00 I mean, it was so good. And and we saw a rough cut. Uh. At an editing place, it was called Editel. On Highland. And watched a movie. And um. Uh.
34:43 Speaker 00 I said, oh, my God.
34:46 Speaker 00 I started crying. I mean, I was like, you know, I said, oh, my God. Uh. Oh, you know, uh. But I was assured that it was going to be good because.
35:03 Speaker 00 Columbia Records.
35:06 Speaker 00 Was all geared up. They weren't even thinking about the movie. Because they were gonna break, they were gonna break it black anyway.
35:12 Billy Corgan? Okay.
35:12 Speaker 00 You know.
35:13 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
35:13 Speaker 00 They weren't thinking about.
35:15 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
35:16 Speaker 00 Pop. But the record ended up taking off. It ended up being huge, Shining Star.
35:21 Billy Corgan? Hello.
35:21 Speaker 00 You know.
35:22 Billy Corgan? Number one album, number one song.
35:24 Speaker 00 Right.
35:26 Billy Corgan? I think if you'd correct me, but I think you guys were the first American, African American act to have. Both.
35:31 Speaker 00 Both.
35:32 Billy Corgan? At the same time.
35:33 Speaker 00 At the same time.
35:34 Billy Corgan? That's, I mean.
35:35 Speaker 00 At the same time.
35:36 Billy Corgan? When my album went number one, I asked my manager, is there any higher position? You know, like, because when you're at the top, it's like.
35:43 Speaker 00 That's right.
35:43 Billy Corgan? Have we actually arrived?
35:45 Speaker 00 That's right. That's right. Um.
35:47 Billy Corgan? And you're like, at that point, you're what, 24, 25 years old?
35:50 Speaker 00 I'm 20.
35:53 Speaker 00 Twenty four.
35:54 Billy Corgan? Not bad. You're doing all right.
35:56 Speaker 00 That was doing all right. I was twenty four and
36:02 Speaker 00 I had just bought my first cool car.
36:05 Billy Corgan? Do you remember what it was?
36:06 Speaker 00 My first cool car.
36:10 Speaker 00 A Datsun two eighty Z.
36:12 Billy Corgan? Okay.
36:12 Speaker 00 Silver AM FM radio. Black leather seats.
36:18 Billy Corgan? Igno eight track seventy five?
36:22 Speaker 00 No, it was a cassette.
36:23 Billy Corgan? Okay, cassette. Okay, because cassette was the new thing.
36:25 Speaker 00 The new thing.
36:26 Billy Corgan? That's right.
36:26 Speaker 00 Eight track was the old thing.
36:27 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
36:28 Speaker 00 For the bigger cars, the caddies and all that stuff, right? The bigger, bigger caddies, right?
36:31 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
36:32 Speaker 00 You cannot write your name and your address on that eight track, right? Uh, but yeah, it was, uh, it was a watershed moment.
36:39 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
36:39 Speaker 00 Columbia Records did a great job.
36:41 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
36:42 Speaker 00 Pound for pound, the music
36:46 Speaker 00 was right there.
36:47 Billy Corgan? Well, Shining Star, that's the first time I consciously knew there was this group and they were making this music. I mean, I'd heard the music, but it was like, now it was my music because like we had a forty five of Shining Star.
36:59 Speaker 00 Right.
36:59 Billy Corgan? And I remember just listening to this record thinking, how do you make that sound? Because I love sound. It's like something that's
37:06 Speaker 00 Right.
37:06 Billy Corgan? Personal to me, you know, the sound of a record.
37:09 Speaker 00 Right.
37:10 Billy Corgan? And I just think, I kept thinking.
37:12 Speaker 00 And George, George Massenberg. And you know, my, no, George.
37:15 Billy Corgan? Well, hello. But I mean, the sound of that
37:17 Speaker 00 Yes.
37:17 Billy Corgan? That record, like
37:18 Speaker 00 Yeah.
37:19 Billy Corgan? What is this? Because I'd heard soul music my whole life.
37:24 Speaker 00 Right.
37:24 Billy Corgan? But this was some other stuff, like
37:26 Speaker 00 Right.
37:26 Billy Corgan? What's going on?
37:27 Speaker 00 Right.
37:28 Billy Corgan? The Christmas, the rhythm, the sound of the voices, the horns, just.
37:32 Speaker 00 And we recorded it at Caribou.
37:34 Billy Corgan? Right.
37:34 Speaker 00 Caribou Ranch, Jim Garcia.
37:36 Billy Corgan? Right, from Chicago.
37:37 Speaker 00 From Chicago, had Chicago.
37:39 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
37:40 Speaker 00 Blood, sweat and tears.
37:41 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
37:41 Speaker 00 Uh, so we, we recorded up there for like six weeks. We stayed there six weeks. And it was good for us because we had a chance to kind of get off the grind.
37:51 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
37:52 Speaker 00 You know,
37:53 Billy Corgan? Focus.
37:53 Speaker 00 Focus, stay in one place every day.
37:56 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
37:56 Speaker 00 You know, uh,
37:57 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
37:57 Speaker 00 Be around the mountains and things like that.
37:59 Billy Corgan? Yeah. Wow. How did you, uh, I mean, that's a, that's a heady age to get a lot of success.
38:06 Speaker 00 Mm hmm.
38:08 Billy Corgan? Were you cool with it? Did it go to your head? Like, how did you, how did you feel about it?
38:12 Speaker 00 I was cool with it. Uh, some of it was heady. Oh.
38:17 Billy Corgan? You know how it goes. Every society, everyone wants to know your name and hang out with you and.
38:22 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah. I mean, I did hang out because I went to a lot of the clubs, the whiskey, the rainbow and the rainbows.
38:31 Billy Corgan? From Chicago.
38:32 Speaker 00 From Chicago.
38:32 Billy Corgan? Oh. I mean, Chicago, everyone.
38:36 Speaker 00 The Roxy.
38:37 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
38:38 Speaker 00 The Roxy came a little bit later.
38:39 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
38:40 Speaker 00 Oh, I went to the clubs.
38:41 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
38:42 Speaker 00 Because that's where all the music was at.
38:43 Billy Corgan? Well, you're young.
38:44 Speaker 00 Yeah, I've been all the clubs. I'm like, the music, I want to hang out. You know what I mean? I never did the drug thing. I was very lucky with that.
38:51 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
38:52 Speaker 00 I never, uh.
38:54 Billy Corgan? Especially those years in the seventies.
38:56 Speaker 00 Yeah, that was.
38:57 Billy Corgan? Out here it was.
38:57 Speaker 00 Out there, it was, it was, uh, um.
39:03 Speaker 00 Every drug you could imagine was there.
39:05 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
39:05 Speaker 00 And it was going in different successions. You know, it was going from like, you know, weed,
39:12 Speaker 00 marijuana to, to,
39:17 Speaker 00 to freebase to this. It was moving. It started with psychedelics.
39:21 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
39:22 Speaker 00 You know, started with the psychedelic era.
39:23 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
39:24 Speaker 00 You know what I mean? And, uh, but I was very, very careful and what, and what, uh, uh, kept me together was, um,
39:35 Speaker 00 fear.
39:37 Billy Corgan? Sometimes that works, right?
39:38 Speaker 00 It worked great.
39:40 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
39:40 Speaker 00 And, and, and, and respecting, uh, Maurice because he had worked so hard.
39:48 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
39:48 Speaker 00 And he took a skinny kit and put him in his band.
39:52 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
39:54 Speaker 00 And he kept this promise. He said, because I know he used to tell me, he said, man,
40:01 Speaker 00 when we signed with Clive and we got their first big contract, we were rooming together and he knocked on the door and Reece had a deep voice. He said, man, this thing I'm getting ready to put you into is going to make you a legend. And all I heard was like, legend, legend, legend.
40:22 Speaker 00 You know, and I didn't want to, I didn't want to disappoint him. You know what I mean? Because he, he took a risk for all of us.
40:28 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
40:32 Billy Corgan? I get it. Okay, so now, things are cooking. He starts Kalimba Productions. And there's that great, uh, is it Denise Williams?
40:42 Speaker 00 Nisi, right? Great record.
40:44 Billy Corgan? That record is, phew.
40:45 Speaker 00 Had that record come out later, it would have got nominated for a Grammy. She came out early before the Grammys got its act together.
40:53 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
40:53 Speaker 00 The, the Grammys didn't really get his act, uh.
40:57 Billy Corgan? We could argue they still haven't gotten their act together, but.
40:59 Speaker 00 Yes, we just, we can't, we can't, can we? Uh, uh, they hadn't gotten their act together in terms of African American acts. The Grammys really got their act together where people had a chance to notice it when Michael Jackson.
41:12 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
41:13 Speaker 00 And Stevie.
41:14 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
41:14 Speaker 00 You know, we got Grammys, but nobody knew about it.
41:18 Billy Corgan? Right.
41:19 Speaker 00 You know, we got Grammys and, you know, uh, now you get a Grammy's and the winner is Earth when the fire, you're sitting right in the front, you go right up, you know? Then, and the winner is Earth when the fire, they're in, up in, uh, aisle Z. Seat forty-three, and then you start saying, well, how are we gonna get down there? You're not.
41:36 Billy Corgan? They don't want you up.
41:37 Speaker 00 They didn't want you up there.
41:39 Billy Corgan? But listen to that, that, this is Nisi, I mean. And I, it struck me because I, I knew the music a little bit, but what struck me was like. That's like Neo, Neo, what they would call Neo Soul later.
41:51 Speaker 00 Yeah.
41:52 Billy Corgan? But like, twenty years before it gets there.
41:55 Speaker 00 Right.
41:56 Billy Corgan? Like you guys were like, you guys were so broad in your, in your ability, like you guys are hitting this. All of us like a totally different home run with a different artist.
42:03 Speaker 00 Right, man.
42:04 Billy Corgan? That's different than Earth when it fires vibe, which is a totally other game over here.
42:08 Speaker 00 Right.
42:09 Billy Corgan? It just strikes me like, wow, you guys were on fire, excuse the pun, but.
42:13 Speaker 00 Yeah, man. Yeah, yeah. Wow. That was a great record.
42:16 Billy Corgan? And I, and I listened to the track and I was like, I sure hope you're playing on this because I want to talk to you about it.
42:20 Speaker 00 Yeah, no, I am. That's me.
42:21 Billy Corgan? Yeah, I know.
42:22 Speaker 00 That is me. And, um.
42:24 Billy Corgan? That whole thing is just, wow.
42:26 Speaker 00 That's a, that's a superb record.
42:28 Billy Corgan? Isn't it cool when you look back and you just see like, there's just magic going on, right?
42:32 Speaker 00 Yeah, man. And she sounded so wonderful.
42:35 Billy Corgan? What a singer.
42:36 Speaker 00 You know, a great singer. She was with Stevie Wonder first, though. In, in Wonderlove.
42:41 Billy Corgan? Okay, I didn't know that.
42:41 Speaker 00 Yes, and, um, uh, and then Stepney.
42:48 Speaker 00 Heard her voice. And Nisi was doing the demos for the emotions.
42:53 Billy Corgan? Okay.
42:54 Speaker 00 And then Reese and then Steptoe Reese, man, we ought to record her too. And um, and they recorded Nisi as well as the emotions.
43:05 Billy Corgan? Wow.
43:05 Speaker 00 Yes. Emotions from Chicago?
43:07 Billy Corgan? Just rocking. You guys are just rocking. It's just, it blows my mind because I don't want to overstate it, but my father so badly wanted to be successful. So all I heard about in the seventies was how difficult the music business was. You know what I mean? So I know maybe firsthand what it took for you guys to be that successful, particularly as an African American group in America at that time. Like I understand it. Like I
43:32 Speaker 00 Sure.
43:32 Billy Corgan? I saw, I had like, almost like a front row seat.
43:35 Speaker 00 Sure.
43:35 Billy Corgan? You know, because my father mostly played in groups with African Americans. He wanted nothing to do with white music.
43:40 Speaker 00 Okay.
43:41 Billy Corgan? So he was like, you know, the joke I always make, he was the white guy in the black band. He wanted nothing to do with white music.
43:47 Speaker 00 Okay.
43:47 Billy Corgan? And he would tell me, this is where it's at. This is the best music. So that's what I'm saying. When he held up your records, he like, he meant it. He wasn't just a fan. He was like, this is, this is music. This is the kind of music I want to make.
43:59 Speaker 00 Right.
43:59 Billy Corgan? And I, you probably wouldn't remember, but when we first met, my father literally picked up the bass because of you.
44:05 Speaker 00 Oh, wow.
44:07 Billy Corgan? Yeah, for real. And he was a really good guitar player. But something about the way you played made him want to play bass. So then he became a really good bass player too.
44:14 Speaker 00 Wow.
44:17 Billy Corgan? So it blew my mind because like my dad was really good. And then suddenly he's playing all this crazy shit on bass. And I'm like, why are you playing like this? He's like, I want to be like Verdi.
44:25 Speaker 00 Wow.
44:26 Billy Corgan? Yeah. So I'm sitting here watching and playing in the living room, like trying to be Verdi.
44:31 Speaker 00 Wow, man.
44:31 Billy Corgan? Oh, yeah. For real. Wow. Yeah.
44:34 Speaker 00 Cool shit. Bam.
44:36 Billy Corgan? Yeah. That's why I get chills because I, I was there, even though I was a kid, I don't, like, I understand now because I'm old, but at the time I'm like, I don't know, I don't know what I'm connecting to, but I feel it.
44:46 Speaker 00 Right.
44:46 Billy Corgan? I'm hearing your music. I like your music. I'm listening to your music on my own. And here's my dad in the living room trying to play like Verdi.
44:52 Speaker 00 Wow.
44:53 Billy Corgan? So when you say why you wanted to talk to me, that's why I want to talk to you.
44:56 Speaker 00 Yeah, man. No, but when I got your call, I said, oh, man, I gotta do this, man.
45:00 Billy Corgan? God bless you.
45:00 Speaker 00 I said, he's a man, man. And I said, he's hip. He knows what's going on.
45:05 Billy Corgan? I understand. I'm.
45:08 Billy Corgan? Tell me from the inside out because you know, as a kid, you know, there you, there you guys are with the pyramids. You know, the kind of the mystical earth, wind and fire, which I loved. I always thought it was so cool. But like from the inside out, like, was that somebody's idea or?
45:25 Speaker 00 It was, well, we always had these great ideas, but that idea crystallized with Doug Henning, the magician.
45:33 Billy Corgan? By the way, when I read that you guys worked with Doug Henning and David Copperfield, I was like, wow, this is really out there.
45:39 Speaker 00 Yeah.
45:40 Billy Corgan? Cause, cause Doug Henning was the biggest musician of the seventies.
45:45 Speaker 00 Of the seventies.
45:46 Billy Corgan? On TV all the time.
45:47 Speaker 00 Right.
45:48 Billy Corgan? You remember magic, right?
45:50 Speaker 00 Exactly. And he was from Canada.
45:52 Billy Corgan? Okay. I didn't know that. Yeah.
45:53 Speaker 00 So when he would tell us, you know, we're going to go out and about.
45:58 Speaker 00 That's where he would talk and, um, but he was a great artist though.
46:03 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
46:03 Speaker 00 And we were, we were, uh, also at the particular time, George Faison, the choreographer director that put the pieces together of Doug's ideas.
46:14 Billy Corgan? Okay.
46:16 Speaker 00 He put them, he put those pieces together.
46:18 Billy Corgan? But whose idea was it to sort of, I'm not saying he made a shift, but suddenly it seems like somewhere all of a sudden it, the, the, the famous image of you guys at that time becomes like the look of the band.
46:30 Speaker 00 Yeah, that, that, we called that the tube show because the tubes came down and we were like.
46:39 Billy Corgan? I'm laughing because it's our go, please finish.
46:40 Speaker 00 You know, but then we were in these things that came up. So when it go down, all of a sudden we appear in the tubes.
46:48 Speaker 00 You know, and, um, um, Doug put it together, but, but George Faison really choreographed it really beautifully.
46:57 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
46:58 Speaker 00 And directed and that show was a hard show to do. It, we rehearsed that show, man, for like,
47:06 Speaker 00 six months.
47:08 Billy Corgan? Really? That's a lot of time to burn.
47:11 Speaker 00 Yeah. You wouldn't, you wouldn't get that at all in, in today's market. You'd lucky to get six days, uh, you know, to rehearse. You know, because we had to do the music first. Then we had to do the choreography, which was hard because they did two choreography sessions. One, it started at 11, no 10:30 to, to 1:30.
47:35 Speaker 00 Took a two hour break for lunch, then we get into the evening part like, you know,
47:41 Speaker 00 six o'clock on.
47:43 Billy Corgan? Wow.
47:43 Speaker 00 Yeah, man, that was, that was for the show, the big show.
47:46 Billy Corgan? Wow.
47:47 Speaker 00 Yeah.
47:47 Billy Corgan? The reason I'm laughing is because um, I remember one day, my teacher, I don't remember what grade, but I would have been, whatever the year would have been, like nine, 10 years old. And the teacher said she's gonna go see you guys play live. And I was so jealous, you know? So after she saw you guys play live, I said, how was the show? And she goes, wow, they came down in these tubes.
48:11 Billy Corgan? Right? So I always remembered that story. And then when I saw the Spinal Tap movie, there's that bit where the guy gets stuck in the pod.
48:18 Speaker 00 And right.
48:19 Billy Corgan? And I always wondered if that was like a, like a, like a, like a rib on you, you guys with the tube.
48:24 Speaker 00 It could have been. It, it could have been.
48:25 Billy Corgan? I wonder if they got that from you.
48:27 Speaker 00 It, it could have been, they might have. And, and the thing about it, the rehearsals were closed.
48:31 Billy Corgan? Okay.
48:32 Speaker 00 And uh, nobody got in those rehearsals. You couldn't, you know,
48:38 Speaker 00 you couldn't get in those rehearsals.
48:39 Billy Corgan? It's because you didn't want anybody to know.
48:40 Speaker 00 That's right, because don't forget now, we were an African American group.
48:45 Speaker 00 And um,
48:50 Speaker 00 and with us, we didn't, you know, now there's more latitude. We were afraid that our ideas were gonna get stolen.
48:57 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
48:58 Speaker 00 You know?
48:58 Billy Corgan? And that's a reasonable.
49:00 Speaker 00 And we wouldn't be able to do it.
49:02 Billy Corgan? I see.
49:02 Speaker 00 That we would get stolen, so we locked everything.
49:05 Billy Corgan? Oh, wow.
49:06 Speaker 00 No, but then you didn't have cameras then, but um, we didn't let anybody in, but we didn't really do that in the studio either. You know what I mean? We didn't like, you know, uh, let a lot of people in the studio watching us.
49:17 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
49:21 Billy Corgan? I'd forgotten, but of course, it makes total sense, you guys being in the Sergeant Pepper's movie, I'd forgotten you guys were in there. And you had the biggest single from that movie.
49:29 Speaker 00 That's right.
49:31 Billy Corgan? Um, any reflections? Cause that movie's kind of considered an interesting uh moment in time.
49:37 Speaker 00 Okay.
49:37 Billy Corgan? Everybody assumed it was gonna be a big movie and turned out to be kind of a bomb.
49:40 Speaker 00 Yeah, everybody thought it was gonna be a uh a big movie, but you know, we learned from the that's the way the world.
49:45 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
49:46 Speaker 00 Record. About that record.
49:48 Billy Corgan? Yeah, yeah.
49:49 Speaker 00 Cause when we did Sergeant Pepper, it was um Billy Preston, the Bee Gees.
49:55 Billy Corgan? Peter Frampton.
49:56 Speaker 00 Peter, Peter, uh who was a good friend of Maurice's, by the way.
49:59 Billy Corgan? Oh, I didn't know that.
50:00 Speaker 00 Peter was. And uh Greek uh.
50:02 Billy Corgan? Aerosmith?
50:03 Speaker 00 Aerosmith, right, Steven.
50:05 Billy Corgan? The Bee Gees, of course. You said the Bee Gees.
50:07 Speaker 00 The Bee Gees, um. And we were just sort of like the black thing to throw into the movie.
50:14 Billy Corgan? Hmm. Can I, if it's, if it's not a strange question to ask, when you guys faced those types of situations and you knew that's kind of what they were doing, were you cool with it or are you just? I, I don't, I don't know what it must feel like, but it seems to be like, how do you, how do you still go into a situation with full enthusiasm if you feel like?
50:31 Speaker 00 You just go, you do, cause you know, our ego was so big and we had, had all those hits, so we said, we don't care.
50:36 Billy Corgan? Okay.
50:37 Speaker 00 You know, but we did that, we did Sergeant, the Sergeant Pepper got to get you in my life.
50:41 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
50:41 Speaker 00 And um.
50:42 Billy Corgan? What a great.
50:44 Speaker 00 And we.
50:44 Billy Corgan? Paul McCartney said it's maybe his favorite.
50:46 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah, George Harrison came up to me and said, he thought that was a great rendition. And I was, oh, my God. And.
50:52 Billy Corgan? Nice compliment.
50:53 Speaker 00 Uh. It turned out to be a, a number one song.
50:58 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
50:59 Speaker 00 Great song, but what we did, um.
51:04 Speaker 00 We put the single out. Before the movie came out.
51:10 Billy Corgan? Cause you'd learned your lesson on the.
51:11 Speaker 00 We learned a lesson on that other one.
51:13 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
51:13 Speaker 00 Um. And it was a number one record before the movie came out.
51:17 Billy Corgan? Ah, I see.
51:18 Speaker 00 So we didn't depend on that movie making the record a big hit.
51:22 Billy Corgan? Smart.
51:23 Speaker 00 And uh.
51:23 Billy Corgan? Did you know it was gonna be a, uh, I don't wanna say it was a bomb, but did you know it wasn't the movie didn't click before, did you see it before it came out?
51:31 Speaker 00 Yeah, we did see it.
51:32 Billy Corgan? Yeah, how'd you feel about it when you saw it before?
51:34 Speaker 00 Well, we knew it was not gonna be a hit because uh when they, we were singing, everything was out of sync.
51:40 Billy Corgan? Uh.
51:40 Speaker 00 We said, oh, oh, that's a kiss of death.
51:42 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
51:43 Speaker 00 You know what I mean? Um, uh, but we didn't really worry too much about it, you know, it was like, uh, uh, it didn't feel like it was.
51:56 Speaker 00 It was a lot of hype, a lot of hype, you know, and it was really about the Bee Gees at their time.
52:01 Billy Corgan? Yeah, it really hurt the Bee Gees.
52:03 Speaker 00 Yeah, because it was.
52:05 Billy Corgan? They had so much momentum. It was the first thing they did where, you know, because they had that crazy momentum.
52:09 Speaker 00 Oh, my God.
52:09 Billy Corgan? We were on a roll.
52:10 Speaker 00 Yeah.
52:10 Billy Corgan? It seemed like everything just kind of stopped.
52:12 Speaker 00 Well, because I think with the movie, um, it was a kiddie movie. It was like for kids. It wasn't really like, and the Bee Gees were doing some adult records, man. They were doing some How Deep Is Your Love and Too Much Heaven. When you listen to those records, man, they was, they did some great records.
52:32 Billy Corgan? It's unfair, some of those productions, with those vocal stacks.
52:35 Speaker 00 And Maurice and I used to listen to their records. I remember he bought a record of their house, over at his house, of their records. He said, man, you gotta listen to this, you know, really great records. Barry Gibb as a producer?
52:51 Billy Corgan? I think Barry, outside of George Martin, Barry has more number ones than anybody else ever.
52:56 Speaker 00 You see what I'm saying?
52:57 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
52:57 Speaker 00 And then the things that Barry did with Robert Streisand.
53:00 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
53:00 Speaker 00 You know, Guilty.
53:02 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
53:03 Speaker 00 That's it. You know, all that good stuff that he did with Streisand.
53:05 Billy Corgan? Great, great producer.
53:06 Speaker 00 Uh, yeah, but they were just, well, you know, commercialism sometimes can box you in.
53:12 Billy Corgan? Yeah. Well, it's kind of where I'm jumping starting to, but it's like, you guys, where a lot of bands were really hurt by disco.
53:19 Speaker 00 Right.
53:19 Billy Corgan? You guys just kind of cruised through because you already were, dance was part of what you did.
53:23 Speaker 00 Right.
53:24 Billy Corgan? It didn't hurt you. Like, the Bee Gees were considered a kind of a credible rock act.
53:28 Speaker 00 Right.
53:29 Billy Corgan? But the disco thing ultimately ended up hurting them. Of course, now this, why they're legends, but there was that whole period when, when the rock crowd turned against disco.
53:37 Speaker 00 Yeah, well, what, I think what happened, disco got beat up unfairly.
53:42 Billy Corgan? You know, it started in Chicago, right?
53:43 Speaker 00 Right, in Comiskey Park.
53:46 Billy Corgan? That was Steve Dahl.
53:46 Speaker 00 Comiskey Park, right, that burned those records.
53:48 Billy Corgan? I was listening the whole time. He went on for about two years on the radio about disco sucks, disco sucks. But he was just a local DJ on a rock station. Okay. Somehow he convinced the White Sox to do that event. We're gonna blow up all the disco records. So if you brought a disco record, you got into the game for free. They put all the disco records in a pile and they blew it up. Well, they blew a hole in the field, which was bad enough. And then all the fans that still had some disco records with them started throwing the. The records at the field and it's one of the only games it's ever been forfeited by a team. The White Sox lost the game that they didn't play because the fans were throwing the records at the players on the field.
54:29 Speaker 00 And see, and in a way that was unfair too.
54:32 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
54:32 Speaker 00 Because don't forget now, a lot of it had a lot to do with disc jockeys because don't forget now, the only records that were able to get on the air were disco records.
54:40 Billy Corgan? Ah.
54:40 Speaker 00 At that time, you know, it was like, everything was
54:45 Speaker 00 four on the floor.
54:46 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
54:46 Speaker 00 Four on the floor. So regular songs weren't getting played.
54:49 Billy Corgan? I see.
54:49 Speaker 00 Even Neil Diamond did a record with four on the floor. Forever in blue jeans, baby.
54:57 Speaker 00 That's all you heard on radio.
55:00 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
55:00 Speaker 00 And I think it hurt anybody that said, I'm a disco guy.
55:04 Billy Corgan? I see.
55:05 Speaker 00 Don't forget now, part of disco was the platform shoes, was the big afros. You know, so I think it hurt it. I think it hurt them because they had the tag of disco.
55:15 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
55:16 Speaker 00 Whereas if you really get into their records, man, they did some great records.
55:19 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
55:23 Billy Corgan? Did you feel there was any toll from all this success? Did you, did you guys wear down? Cause there's this point where you guys take a hiatus. I know it's in the eighties, but.
55:30 Speaker 00 Right, eighty-three, right.
55:31 Billy Corgan? Yeah, but is there, I don't want to say, did the cracks appear anywhere or is it just, are you guys just running headlong?
55:39 Speaker 00 I think we were just running headlong, man, you know, no breaks, no sleep. I mean, we were knocking them records out, man. I mean, knocking them out. I mean, every day, every day. And then don't forget now, we were part of the culture change. You know, we were part of that big, that big culture wave.
55:57 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
55:58 Speaker 00 You know, we were part of that whole thing that was moving, you know?
56:03 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
56:03 Speaker 00 You know, so, oh, absolutely. You know, I think it took a toll on Reese.
56:06 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
56:06 Speaker 00 You know?
56:08 Billy Corgan? But you were, were you cool with it? Or I'm just asking you to reflect on the time a little bit.
56:13 Speaker 00 I think. We didn't really, really have a choice.
56:17 Billy Corgan? I see.
56:18 Speaker 00 You know what I mean? I think it just, and don't forget, a lot of other things was converging. The music was changing.
56:23 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
56:23 Speaker 00 It was going from real drums to drum machines.
56:27 Billy Corgan? Yeah, even you guys made kind of a eighties kind of drum machine type of record.
56:31 Speaker 00 Right, which really, actually, in retrospect, probably was a mistake.
56:34 Billy Corgan? Well, it's weird to hear a record where you're not really playing, and if you are.
56:37 Speaker 00 That's right.
56:38 Billy Corgan? The synth is loud, the synth is louder than you.
56:40 Speaker 00 Yeah, so.
56:41 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
56:42 Speaker 00 And if you listen to every eighties record, you can tell every eighties record. Drum machines. Uh, remember that sound?
56:52 Billy Corgan? I kind of like that sound.
56:52 Speaker 00 Right, you know?
56:55 Speaker 00 And, and so I do think, uh, it took a toll on all of us.
56:58 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
56:58 Speaker 00 And I think that era, uh,
57:03 Speaker 00 it took a toll on that era too. Cause when you really look back at it, you know, like we're talking about our work, which was really primarily seventies work, things like that. We don't talk about the eighties that much.
57:13 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
57:13 Speaker 00 The eighties don't get no love.
57:15 Billy Corgan? Yeah. Yeah, I, I, I wasn't as familiar with some of your eighties records. I went and listened to some stuff.
57:20 Speaker 00 They did, but I don't think we had a hit in the eighties.
57:23 Billy Corgan? Not that I remember.
57:24 Speaker 00 No, we didn't really start getting it back together to the late eighties.
57:28 Billy Corgan? But what's weird to me is I listened to some of that stuff and the music's still good. It's not like I think like, you know, sometimes you listen to a band you love and, and then you hit, they hit that weird wall and you think like, oh.
57:39 Speaker 00 You said, oh my God, cut it off.
57:40 Billy Corgan? But not with you guys.
57:41 Speaker 00 No, we were pretty lucky. We were very lucky. And then also too, one of the things that we had, we were fortunate that the audience waited on us.
57:49 Billy Corgan? Okay.
57:50 Speaker 00 To get it together.
57:52 Billy Corgan? Well, you think it was just a deep loyalty that they had with you?
57:54 Speaker 00 I think we had done such really good work. And there were not a lot of African American acts that big. So they waited on us.
58:06 Billy Corgan? Okay.
58:06 Speaker 00 Uh, the, uh,
58:10 Speaker 00 The acts that I thought that really great, of course, Michael.
58:14 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
58:14 Speaker 00 You know, blew through the roof.
58:15 Billy Corgan? Prince, of course.
58:16 Speaker 00 Prince, Lionel, um.
58:21 Billy Corgan? I mean, on some level, there must be a level of pride because you inspired this, this other wave that came in.
58:26 Speaker 00 Absolutely. Now, the one thing that they got that we never got, we never got MTV. We were never on MTV.
58:33 Billy Corgan? Wow, even in the heyday?
58:35 Speaker 00 Never.
58:36 Billy Corgan? That's my jaw dropping on the floor.
58:38 Speaker 00 Never.
58:38 Billy Corgan? How is that possible?
58:40 Speaker 00 Who knows?
58:41 Billy Corgan? Wow, that's crazy.
58:42 Speaker 00 We were never, we never got on MTV. Uh, would you believe we never got the cover of Ebony?
58:49 Billy Corgan? That's, that's even more jaw dropping.
58:51 Speaker 00 More jaw, right. And then we never got the cover of, uh, Jet magazine. And Jet should have been easy because mostly the guys would get the Jet magazine to look at the pinup girl in the middle. You know, at the music, at the newsstand, they would get it and, uh, and they said, oh,
59:09 Speaker 00 that was Jet magazine.
59:10 Billy Corgan? But even wasn't Jet in Chicago?
59:11 Speaker 00 Yes, right.
59:13 Billy Corgan? You didn't even have the hometown advantage.
59:14 Speaker 00 Right. And, um, so, um, so we didn't really get too much love. But when we started, the world started changing again.
59:24 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
59:25 Speaker 00 Getting more urban again.
59:26 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
59:27 Speaker 00 You know, we were right there.
59:28 Billy Corgan? Wow, that's crazy to me. Um, talk about this however you like, but I, you know, I kind of remember it, but then reading it out, you know, your brother goes off, starts producing Neil Diamond, Barbra Streisand.
59:41 Speaker 00 Yes.
59:42 Billy Corgan? Phillip Bailey starts to go solo.
59:43 Speaker 00 Right.
59:44 Billy Corgan? A huge solo artist.
59:45 Speaker 00 Right.
59:47 Billy Corgan? You did some production work.
59:51 Billy Corgan? Did you see that as just sort of like, you know, the, the world is expanding because of your success and, but did it feel like the band was falling apart? Did it feel like everybody was still on the same page?
1:00:00 Speaker 00 It felt, it felt a little bit of both, falling apart and together. And we were still creative though. You know, we were still doing some great work.
1:00:08 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:00:08 Speaker 00 I worked with Mark King, Level 42, great bass player.
1:00:11 Billy Corgan? Oh, yeah.
1:00:12 Speaker 00 Oh, my God. And, uh, um, but we were still growing. Don't forget that we were only in our early 30s.
1:00:19 Billy Corgan? Yeah, but you know, the music business can be cruel that way.
1:00:21 Speaker 00 It can.
1:00:22 Billy Corgan? You know, if suddenly the wind blows a little bit different.
1:00:25 Speaker 00 Right.
1:00:26 Billy Corgan? You know, you guys still have all this stuff going on.
1:00:28 Speaker 00 Right.
1:00:29 Billy Corgan? It's not like, you know, the phone stopped ringing. You, you guys were busy. But even I was surprised and, and I'm not looking for gossip. I don't really do gossip, but like, You know, I, I, I thought for sure, like if your brother was producing Streisand, that you would have been on the record. I didn't see your name on the record.
1:00:43 Speaker 00 Right, right.
1:00:44 Billy Corgan? So it wasn't, again, I'm not looking for gossip. It's just like, is it just everybody gets busy and kind of?
1:00:49 Speaker 00 No, I just think he had his own production thing he wanted to do. I think he wanted to expand.
1:00:55 Billy Corgan? Right.
1:00:55 Speaker 00 You know, and, and work with other artists, other musicians and things like that. And of course we ended up working together again anyway.
1:01:02 Billy Corgan? Oh, sure.
1:01:02 Speaker 00 You know, but, but that's, that's par for the course.
1:01:05 Billy Corgan? Yeah, okay. I was just curious about that.
1:01:10 Billy Corgan? When your brother, explain the sequence where your brother figures out he's got Parkinson's and he kind of semi-retires from the stage. And you kind of walk me through that a little bit.
1:01:19 Speaker 00 Well, um, when he said he had Parkinson's, um, I didn't know where Parkinson's was really, to be honest. None of us knew. And then he decided not to, uh, tour, but, uh,
1:01:39 Speaker 00 he still was involved, you know, because his ideas were still there.
1:01:42 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:01:42 Speaker 00 He still was in the studio with us, you know what I mean? And, uh, uh, and he had it for a long time. He had it for a long time.
1:01:50 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:01:51 Speaker 00 You know, and, um, he, you know, he did a great job. He did, um, Reece did a hell of a job, a hell of a job. I mean, he really, he laid it down, man. He laid it down, you know what I mean? He really,
1:02:09 Speaker 00 he stuck to his convictions. That's what I love about him, you know, as a person too.
1:02:13 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:02:13 Speaker 00 You know, you know, and the thing about it is he was there to get all of the honors, you know what I mean? That he deserved, uh, uh, and of course we got Kennedy Center honors too.
1:02:25 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:02:25 Speaker 00 And, uh, and I love the fact when LL Cool J said, "We love Earth and Fire and let us not forget Maurice, Maurice." You know, all the people from the South calling Maurice, you know what I mean? So Reece got his, he did get his, you know what I mean? And he's getting it again because, uh, you know, uh, we have a documentary coming.
1:02:43 Billy Corgan? Oh, I didn't know that.
1:02:44 Speaker 00 Yeah, man, that Questlove.
1:02:46 Billy Corgan? Oh, that's gonna be amazing.
1:02:47 Speaker 00 It's gonna be good.
1:02:48 Billy Corgan? I saw the Sly one. I thought, I was very impressed.
1:02:51 Speaker 00 Yeah, well, we're right after that, you know what I mean?
1:02:53 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:02:53 Speaker 00 And, uh, it's really good.
1:02:55 Billy Corgan? I thought it was interesting with, with the Sly doc on Questlove. I know Questlove just a little bit, you know?
1:03:00 Speaker 00 Okay.
1:03:01 Billy Corgan? I've met him through the years and he's always been very, very kind to me. So as you know, sometimes when you know somebody even just a little bit, you're willing to kind of take the ride, maybe because you think like, hey, we're fellow soldiers in this game. Now he's moving in the doc space. I kind of want to see what he's got.
1:03:18 Speaker 00 Right.
1:03:18 Billy Corgan? And he, you know, if you remember the, the, the, the, the, um, the title of the Sly doc is like the, the bird in a black genius or something like that.
1:03:28 Speaker 00 Okay.
1:03:28 Billy Corgan? You know that? Yeah, it's called like Sly Stone, the bird in a black genius or something.
1:03:32 Speaker 00 Okay.
1:03:33 Billy Corgan? And he talks, or at least the doc sort of basically points Sly's obviously had huge drug issues, but he said a lot of it was the expectations of the African American community on, on Sly.
1:03:46 Speaker 00 Okay.
1:03:47 Billy Corgan? It's an interesting thing to pose. You know what I mean? It's not something I would necessarily come to my own conclusion on, but watching Quest Love frame it up in the documentary and really kind of push past like, just call it the mythology of Sly.
1:04:01 Speaker 00 Okay.
1:04:01 Billy Corgan? But really say, do we really understand what Sly was going through?
1:04:05 Speaker 00 Sure.
1:04:05 Billy Corgan? In these years.
1:04:06 Speaker 00 Right.
1:04:06 Billy Corgan? You know what I mean? Do we really understand? And he, and he paints a very particular picture of the pressures that Sly was getting from the African American community at that time.
1:04:16 Speaker 00 Okay.
1:04:17 Billy Corgan? So.
1:04:18 Speaker 00 I think, I think Quest is probably right.
1:04:23 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:04:23 Speaker 00 He probably was right about that. You know what I mean?
1:04:25 Billy Corgan? Well, he's a, to me, sorry, he's a smart guy, Quest, you know? So to me, it's like, he made me have to rethink Sly's whole story. But that's what I loved about the doc. Cause he did, it told a beautiful story, but he also made me have to rethink about things. And I hope in a way, he also does the same with you guys. It doesn't have to be about African American issues or in music. It could be something that I wouldn't even understand. It might be about your relationships as brothers or something.
1:04:52 Speaker 00 Sure.
1:04:53 Billy Corgan? But I saw that he was willing to take a bold step and, and say, do we really understand this person's story?
1:05:01 Speaker 00 Yeah. Well, what the story that, uh, was told about us was good. It was, uh, primarily about Maurice.
1:05:10 Billy Corgan? Okay.
1:05:11 Speaker 00 Our relationship to him, you know, what he went through.
1:05:14 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:05:15 Speaker 00 There's pictures of our mother, which, you know, you meet and you, and you look at those pictures, you'd be saying, oh, wow. You know what I mean? And, um, and it, and, and we had a chance to show, um,
1:05:29 Speaker 00 The peaks and the valleys.
1:05:30 Billy Corgan? Hmm.
1:05:31 Speaker 00 But he did a great job with it, you know what I mean? Uh, as a, as a, as a director.
1:05:37 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:05:38 Speaker 00 You know what I mean? Um, we come out looking really good. Uh, because, you know, because that's what you wanted. Because, uh, uh, originally at first, I was the last one.
1:05:45 Billy Corgan? Hmm.
1:05:46 Speaker 00 To sign on.
1:05:48 Billy Corgan? Were you skeptical for any particular reason?
1:05:50 Speaker 00 Well, I didn't want it to be a, a tell all, tell all.
1:05:55 Billy Corgan? I see.
1:05:55 Speaker 00 Because sometimes these documentaries.
1:05:57 Billy Corgan? Yeah. In order to keep it moving.
1:05:59 Speaker 00 To keep it moving.
1:06:00 Billy Corgan? It comes more about drama than what the drama actually was. Does that make sense?
1:06:04 Speaker 00 Yeah. And, and people, uh.
1:06:08 Speaker 00 The one thing that I like about, um, Earth and the Fire is that people come up to me and they, they thank me for making the music. They thank us for making all that great music. I just didn't want anybody to come up to me and say, man, I didn't know y'all were like that.
1:06:24 Speaker 00 Right?
1:06:27 Billy Corgan? I thought you guys were just there in front of the pyramid.
1:06:29 Speaker 00 Man, I thought, man, I, man, I didn't know y'all was like that. Wow. Right? Because, you know.
1:06:34 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:06:35 Speaker 00 Uh, you don't know, but, but Philip, Ralph and I, you know, we're one of the producers.
1:06:40 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:06:40 Speaker 00 So that gives us some.
1:06:42 Billy Corgan? Yeah. I mean, my, my sense is, uh, that there's a greater appreciation now for your brothers. Maurice, we're talking about his, his particular brilliance, like what he brought to the table.
1:06:55 Speaker 00 Sure.
1:06:56 Billy Corgan? I think that's pretty cool.
1:06:57 Speaker 00 I think if the doc had come out, maybe, but we had one come out about 25 years ago. Uh, uh, and it's much more mild, although I liked that one too. I thought it was great. You know what I mean? I didn't think we needed to do another one, you know what I mean? But now everybody's into documentaries.
1:07:13 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:07:14 Speaker 00 People know where the documentary is now.
1:07:15 Billy Corgan? Well, they, I think the, um, kind of like with music, the rise of how computers are used in editing have really blown the doc space open because you can put so much more information.
1:07:26 Speaker 00 Yes, that's true.
1:07:27 Billy Corgan? The, the director of the David Bowie documentary, Moon Age Daydream, Brett Morgan told me that, uh.
1:07:35 Billy Corgan? He worked with the Bowie Estate and he had five million pieces of data.
1:07:41 Billy Corgan? Five million pictures, videos, interview clips. I mean, can imagine. I mean, 25 years ago, you didn't have that ability to put all that information in and
1:07:50 Speaker 00 That's right.
1:07:51 Billy Corgan? You know, keyword and so you see, that's why documentaries have become so much more rich in terms of the videos and the pictures.
1:07:59 Speaker 00 That's true.
1:08:00 Billy Corgan? Yeah. So, so as a fan, I'm excited to see this new one because I, I want to sort of.
1:08:05 Speaker 00 Yeah. When I saw it, I said, oh, wow.
1:08:08 Billy Corgan? We did a lot.
1:08:08 Speaker 00 I said, oh, wow. You know what I mean? Uh, when we saw the, uh,
1:08:12 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:08:12 Speaker 00 A screening, you know?
1:08:14 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:08:14 Speaker 00 And, uh, uh, but it, but it was, it was good, you know, it was, it was good, man.
1:08:20 Billy Corgan? I'm happy to hear it.
1:08:21 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:08:24 Billy Corgan? I was watching the other day, I found your, uh, like clip of you working out or something.
1:08:28 Speaker 00 Oh, the other day?
1:08:29 Billy Corgan? I follow you on social media or something. So you came up and you were working out. You were, I know you were doing like ballet.
1:08:36 Speaker 00 Ballet, yeah, I'm doing ballet and I'm working out and, and all that stuff. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. I'm doing that stuff. Yeah.
1:08:42 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:08:43 Speaker 00 You know?
1:08:43 Billy Corgan? Um, I'm impressed that you're, uh, still doing it. I mean, you're still out there. You're still rocking the people. You know what I mean?
1:08:52 Speaker 00 Yeah. Well, let's, go ahead.
1:08:54 Billy Corgan? What drives you? I mean, you know what I mean? Is, I, I know it's a simple question, but I mean, you must love it, but I mean, like, what gets you out of bed?
1:09:02 Speaker 00 Well, I still like what I do, you know, um, you know, and I'm grateful. And, um,
1:09:11 Speaker 00 I still look good.
1:09:13 Billy Corgan? You look great.
1:09:15 Speaker 00 I'm still healthy. Um, uh, you know, it's, I'm, you know, I'm around great people. You know, great family, my wife, Shelley. Um,
1:09:28 Speaker 00 and it's really, it's really good.
1:09:30 Billy Corgan? This just occurred to me just talking to you.
1:09:32 Speaker 00 Tell me.
1:09:32 Billy Corgan? Right now. Um.
1:09:36 Billy Corgan? I make this joke and maybe it makes sense to you. Sometimes I've had long contentious years with rock critics, you know what I mean?
1:09:44 Speaker 00 Okay.
1:09:45 Billy Corgan? Picky, picky rock critics. And sometimes I make a joke to them and I say, be careful because my children might take over the business.
1:09:52 Speaker 00 Right.
1:09:53 Billy Corgan? And they kind of look at me like that and I said, like, you understand what I'm saying? I'm not talking my kids are going to get in the business. My kids might take over this business, the pumpkins business.
1:10:04 Speaker 00 Right.
1:10:04 Billy Corgan? You know what I mean? And I'm not saying that's your plan, but I'm, I'm, I'm saying is, is there something that you feel like, wow, this family band, like it's, we're still going?
1:10:17 Speaker 00 Well, well, uh, uh, my son Warner is one of the producers of the doc. He's a great kid. He's not a kid anymore.
1:10:29 Speaker 00 Cabran, Maurice's son, uh, one of the producers of the documentary, KB.
1:10:35 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:10:35 Speaker 00 You know what I mean? And a great kid. Leo the lion like me. And, uh, uh, and in certain respects, Cabran has stepped up and Warner has stepped up. You know what I mean? As, uh,
1:10:49 Billy Corgan? That's kind of what I was after. This such a beautiful family story.
1:10:54 Speaker 00 Yeah, well, I think, you know, they grew up around it.
1:10:57 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:10:58 Speaker 00 And you don't even know they are, uh, checking it out, you know, uh, the way they are.
1:11:08 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:11:09 Speaker 00 You know, and, and, uh, my wife Shelley sings the honeycomb. Our granddaughter Nala sings. So they were, they're around, they're around it. They've been around it a lot.
1:11:18 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:11:18 Speaker 00 You know, in terms of, uh, uh, the music business. But, but, and then, you know, you, you wait on them to grow too. You know what I mean?
1:11:26 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:11:27 Speaker 00 The, the, the one thing that I've tried to do is just be supportive. Kind of stay out of the way and let them find their own space.
1:11:33 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:11:34 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:11:34 Billy Corgan? But do you feel that, I guess what I'm after is when you're standing on stage and I've been, I've been able to see you play and I understand the joy that you guys bring to the crowd.
1:11:46 Speaker 00 Right.
1:11:47 Billy Corgan? I mean, the music is unbelievable, but the joy of the band, it's real.
1:11:53 Speaker 00 Right.
1:11:53 Billy Corgan? You know, you put on a great show, but it's coming from here.
1:11:57 Speaker 00 Oh, yeah.
1:11:57 Billy Corgan? It's a, it's a heart centered thing that you guys do.
1:12:00 Speaker 00 It's not fake.
1:12:02 Billy Corgan? Not even, not even close to.
1:12:04 Speaker 00 You gotta just go out there and do it, man.
1:12:05 Billy Corgan? Oh, yeah. Do you feel that your parents behind you, your, your brothers above you, do you feel all that?
1:12:12 Speaker 00 I feel all of it. I feel, I feel sad to feel my best teacher around. I feel Charles Stepney, you know? And I feel all of those, excuse me, those great guys that.
1:12:25 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:12:25 Speaker 00 That brought me this far.
1:12:27 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:12:27 Speaker 00 Yeah, man.
1:12:28 Billy Corgan? I could feel that talk of you, you know?
1:12:31 Speaker 00 Well, yeah.
1:12:32 Billy Corgan? It's beautiful.
1:12:33 Speaker 00 You know, and it's a, you know, it's a once in a lifetime dream that you get for this.
1:12:39 Billy Corgan? Hello?
1:12:40 Speaker 00 I know, man, to do the, you know, to do what we do. I mean, it's not like.
1:12:43 Billy Corgan? Please, we're so lucky. It's not even funny.
1:12:46 Speaker 00 You know, it's not, you can't write this.
1:12:51 Billy Corgan? No, two guys from Chicago, right?
1:12:54 Speaker 00 Right, man. And we should take, I should take the L.
1:12:57 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:12:58 Speaker 00 The L, the CTA, you know?
1:13:03 Speaker 00 Yeah, man, I used to do that. Now when I go to Chicago, I'm in my town car, you know what I mean?
1:13:08 Billy Corgan? It's a little rough on the L right about now.
1:13:10 Speaker 00 Exactly, exactly.
1:13:13 Billy Corgan? I saw where you put out this song in 2024, Superman.
1:13:16 Speaker 00 Right.
1:13:16 Billy Corgan? About your brother.
1:13:17 Speaker 00 It's a Mariches.
1:13:17 Billy Corgan? Yeah, and listen to it. It was beautiful. But I saw where you call him your hero. Can you, can you, I mean, it seems obvious, but I want to hear it from you. What made him your hero?
1:13:28 Speaker 00 Well, I wanted to be like him, you know, I admired him and still do. And if it hadn't been for him, I wouldn't be sitting here.
1:13:41 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:13:41 Speaker 00 He, you know, he believed me.
1:13:42 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:13:43 Speaker 00 You know what I mean? And.
1:13:45 Billy Corgan? Because sometimes when guys are in bands, sometimes it's sisters too, but when, when guys are in bands with a brother, who's gets, gets the, you know, he's the front guy.
1:13:54 Speaker 00 Right.
1:13:55 Billy Corgan? You know, he's the guy producing the records, all this stuff. Sometimes the brother gets almost like weirdly resentful, you know?
1:14:00 Speaker 00 Right.
1:14:01 Billy Corgan? These legendary situations, you know, bands break up over silly families, really more so than the, than the musical stuff.
1:14:09 Speaker 00 Right.
1:14:11 Billy Corgan? It touches me that you love your brother that way and it.
1:14:14 Speaker 00 Absolutely.
1:14:15 Billy Corgan? Came through the band.
1:14:16 Speaker 00 Absolutely. And, and the thing about it is, is he gave me room to grow.
1:14:24 Speaker 00 Well, I mean, I had a chance to to grow and and and not only be a a great musician, but to become an adult.
1:14:30 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:14:31 Speaker 00 In this thing called the music business. I mean, I be an adult in the music business, which is, as you spoke of earlier, uh, that is not an easy business, you know, to be in, particularly over a long period of time. You know, the long.
1:14:46 Billy Corgan? When they say it's a marathon, not a sprint.
1:14:48 Speaker 00 That's right. That's right. But you have to be in it to know how far, how far you gotta go, you know? So, and I never would have had a chance to go to places and uh, see the things I've seen.
1:14:59 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:15:00 Speaker 00 I was eighteen years old, man. I weighed a buck oh five when I came out there, man. And and we lived at the uh, Franklin.
1:15:10 Billy Corgan? Okay.
1:15:10 Speaker 00 On Franklin Avenue, uh, seventy forty seven Franklin.
1:15:15 Billy Corgan? Okay.
1:15:15 Speaker 00 Uh, that's where Janis Joplin was.
1:15:17 Billy Corgan? Okay.
1:15:17 Speaker 00 Yeah, man. That's where she died.
1:15:20 Billy Corgan? Goodness, I didn't know that.
1:15:21 Speaker 00 Where we lived. And uh, uh, and then all kind of musicians would come through there. Hendrix, all that guys, all that, you know? Uh, and I met Jimi Hendrix.
1:15:33 Billy Corgan? I didn't know that.
1:15:33 Speaker 00 Yeah, and people say, what was it like? I said, he had a list. He had a list, he had a list. What's up, man? He had a list.
1:15:43 Billy Corgan? Couple more things. Thank you for indulging me. Uh, I saw where Miles Davis said you were his all time favorite band. Now that is a compliment.
1:15:51 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:15:52 Billy Corgan? Cause Miles was like beyond picky.
1:15:56 Speaker 00 Yeah, he didn't like anybody. Miles.
1:15:58 Billy Corgan? He didn't even like the guys he played with.
1:16:00 Speaker 00 Right, right. And um, but Miles is always very nice to me. When I, uh, his nephew Vince and I are very, very, very close. We're like family, you know, come out of Chicago.
1:16:11 Billy Corgan? Right.
1:16:11 Speaker 00 And uh, and uh,
1:16:17 Speaker 00 Went to Miles's house. You know, uh, cause Miles lived here too after a while.
1:16:22 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:16:23 Speaker 00 You know, everybody always migrates to California at a certain point.
1:16:26 Billy Corgan? Here we are.
1:16:27 Speaker 00 Amen. And, um, uh, so, um,
1:16:33 Speaker 00 I would go, I would never say anything. Never say anything and let him talk and things like that. And, and I was in the kitchen talking. And, uh, I was with Vince standing up in the kitchen. Then we were talking, then Miles said, why don't y'all split? He threw, he threw us out. Why don't y'all split?
1:16:54 Speaker 00 But, uh, he would talk about contrary emotion.
1:16:57 Billy Corgan? Ah.
1:16:57 Speaker 00 Talk about harmony.
1:16:59 Billy Corgan? Wow.
1:16:59 Speaker 00 Where you could put all the different notes.
1:17:01 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:17:01 Speaker 00 And he would draw the notes out.
1:17:03 Billy Corgan? Wow.
1:17:04 Speaker 00 And he said, you know, and, um, and if you know mathematics, you can write, write music. You know, things like, you know.
1:17:11 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:17:12 Speaker 00 Things like that.
1:17:13 Billy Corgan? Wow. Amazing.
1:17:17 Billy Corgan? Two things left.
1:17:19 Speaker 00 Go ahead.
1:17:19 Billy Corgan? Uh, I want to share a story with you. So.
1:17:23 Speaker 00 Okay.
1:17:23 Billy Corgan? I got to see you guys play at Chicago Theater, I think it was. Would have been about, gosh, maybe it was maybe 10 years ago.
1:17:31 Speaker 00 Okay.
1:17:32 Billy Corgan? Uh, Maurice was still alive. So if that gives you a kind of another timeframe. And, uh, you know, I'm a big celebrity in Chicago, so I call for tickets. I want to see the show.
1:17:42 Speaker 00 Mm hmm.
1:17:44 Billy Corgan? And, uh, and, uh, I'm sitting on the aisle and my wife's sitting here. She loves you guys too. She's a lot younger. So, you know, oh, and I actually have two stories for you, but sorry.
1:17:59 Billy Corgan? So I'm sitting there and, and the show's just about to start, you know, it's just about to start. You can tell. And just as the show's starting, or maybe the show had started, a young man comes.
1:18:10 Speaker 00 Go ahead. Go ahead.
1:18:11 Billy Corgan? A young man comes and kind of kneels next to me, says, are you Billy? And like, oh, how, how you doing? You know? And he goes, oh, it's so nice to meet you. And he starts talking to me and I'm thinking like, you know, show's about to start and I'm trying to be nice, but at the same time I'm like, I don't know if people are going to get mad because this kid's sitting here and.
1:18:34 Billy Corgan? And he goes, oh, my father's really a big fan of yours. So, oh, thank you, you know? And he goes, oh, I probably should tell you who I am. It was your nephew.
1:18:45 Speaker 00 Oh, it was KB.
1:18:48 Billy Corgan? And he said, I turn my, I turn your music on to my dad. My dad really likes what you were doing. You want to talk about a compliment?
1:18:55 Speaker 00 Well, because Cabran was on the staff at the time.
1:18:59 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:18:59 Speaker 00 Was that the night that the sound went out?
1:19:02 Billy Corgan? You know what? I think it was.
1:19:03 Speaker 00 It went out for four songs.
1:19:05 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:19:06 Speaker 00 Yeah, the sound went out that night.
1:19:07 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:19:08 Speaker 00 Yeah, something blew.
1:19:10 Billy Corgan? That's right.
1:19:11 Speaker 00 I remember. But the sound went out that night. Yeah.
1:19:15 Billy Corgan? So, you know, this is this young guy talking to me and he's like, oh, Maurice is my dad. I mean, you want to talk about like
1:19:23 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:19:24 Billy Corgan? blowing my mind because he's, he's telling me how much his dad likes my music.
1:19:28 Speaker 00 Right.
1:19:28 Billy Corgan? And he goes, I probably should tell you who my dad is. And then he told me.
1:19:32 Speaker 00 Right. Well, KB knows about music, man. And he, he used to A and O over at Hollywood Records.
1:19:37 Billy Corgan? Oh, I didn't know that.
1:19:38 Speaker 00 Yes.
1:19:39 Billy Corgan? Okay. So, one other story, if you'll indulge me. So, knowing I was going to interview you, I was telling my kids, I got young kids, 10, seven and a baby. So I got the two 10, seven in the car. And I go, oh, I'm going to interview this great musician, you know, he's from Chicago.
1:20:00 Billy Corgan? And they said, well, play us one of his songs. So I put September on and they go, oh, no, we know this song already, Dad. I go, you know this song? Yeah, it's Earth, Wind and Fire. I go, how do you know this song? Mom plays it in the car all the time.
1:20:17 Speaker 00 Wow.
1:20:21 Billy Corgan? I mean, the beauty of music, like, wow. I mean, my kids listening to you at the same age, I fell in love with your music.
1:20:29 Speaker 00 Wow.
1:20:30 Billy Corgan? Humbly.
1:20:31 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:20:31 Billy Corgan? To me as a dad.
1:20:32 Speaker 00 Well, that's the thing that makes it so beautiful. See, we've transcended all the media, all the noise, you know? And it's, and now.
1:20:45 Speaker 00 Everybody likes our music. Even if they don't know who we are.
1:20:48 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:20:49 Speaker 00 They like our music. And they've all been touched by it. And they've all. And the nice thing about it, a lot of the great people, they've worked with us. And we were able to get through the whole thing, you know, from artists to executives to other musicians.
1:21:07 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:21:10 Billy Corgan? Anything you want to add to all that? I know we talked a lot, a lot of stuff.
1:21:14 Speaker 00 Well, I just want to say, man, it is a pleasure and an honor to be sitting here with you.
1:21:17 Billy Corgan? Thank you.
1:21:18 Speaker 00 And, uh, and I didn't want to wait. I said, yes, immediately. I said, I got, I got to do this. That's my man. You know what I mean? I said, just really, I love, I love your work too, man.
1:21:28 Billy Corgan? Thank you.
1:21:28 Speaker 00 Just really good.
1:21:29 Billy Corgan? God bless you.
1:21:30 Speaker 00 God bless you. Thank you.
Previous Pat Boone | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan Next Filmmaker & Composer John Carpenter | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan Page updated October 30, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated