Pod Insights The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan Filmmaker & Composer John Carpenter | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan About this episode Billy Corgan welcomes horror master and filmmaking icon John Carpenter for a fascinating conversation. Carpenter reflects on fighting studios to protect his vision, why he refused to change the ending of The Thing, and what it really means to be an auteur in Hollywood. He shares stories about growing up around the Nashville music scene, discovering filmmaking at age eight, composing his legendary film scores, and why Halloween works because “the less you know about Michael Myers, the scarier he becomes.” Along the way, Billy and John debate the scariest movie ever made, swap stories about professional wrestling, classic directors like Howard Hawks and John Ford, the collapse of the studio system, AI’s impact on filmmaking, and why America sometimes feels like it’s living inside one of Carpenter’s dystopian movies.
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Transcript 10,191 words · 4 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Speaker 00 Halloween is designed to make you jump and scream.
0:04 Billy Corgan? That movie scared me off the scary movies for the rest of my life.
0:07 Speaker 00 The less you know about Michael Myers, the scarier, scarier he is to you.
0:13 Billy Corgan? Having been on a few sets in my life, I don't know how you do it.
0:17 Speaker 00 The thing that I love the most about movies is when they're finished. They're done.
0:24 Billy Corgan? John Carpenter, thank you very much for being here today.
0:26 Speaker 00 My pleasure.
0:31 Billy Corgan? When I think of you, I think of the word auteur, which is, which is a word we use in America in the arts. But I don't think we really know what it means.
0:38 Speaker 00 No, no, we don't know what it means.
0:39 Billy Corgan? How would you define auteur?
0:41 Speaker 00 Just somebody in control and that's a lot of people want to be in control. But when you're a movie director in the, in Hollywood, in the business, you want to maintain control because that's your movie. In fact, Sergio Leone was a famous director and he wanted control. And he made a movie called Once About a Time. What was it?
1:07 Billy Corgan? In the West?
1:08 Speaker 00 No, that one is, that's one of the greatest movies ever made. The New York movie with Robert De Niro.
1:15 Billy Corgan? Oh, okay. I know what you're talking about. Yeah.
1:16 Speaker 00 Anyway, the studio started cutting it. He said, it's no longer my film. So that's, that's what it is. It's, it's somebody who paints with movies.
1:27 Billy Corgan? Yeah. So in, in doing my research on you, Howard Hawks came up. John Ford came up, Hitchcock too. All great auteurs.
1:38 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah.
1:38 Billy Corgan? That what, you know, sometimes in, we say something in interview and it becomes the truth. But are, are, are men like Hawks and Ford people you really looked up to from as directors? Or as people who are auteurs in the sense of being able to create and control their own world?
1:56 Speaker 00 When I, I went to film school at USC, like a lot of guys did, and I saw all their movies, all the classic Hollywood films. And these are the guys who stood out to me. They had a, they had a vision. This is what they wanted to do. This is them.
2:13 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
2:13 Speaker 00 On the screen.
2:14 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
2:14 Speaker 00 And I really responded to that.
2:17 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
2:17 Speaker 00 I thought, that's something I want to do.
2:19 Billy Corgan? Yeah. Yeah, Hawks, um, uh, you know, atmosphere comes to mind for it, almost like a painter.
2:26 Speaker 00 Yeah.
2:27 Billy Corgan? Like these beautiful painterly scenes that he would create. Um, but so I thought, what, what would you describe your, your vision?
2:36 Speaker 00 Oh, God.
2:38 Billy Corgan? It's, it's, it's kind of a melange.
2:39 Speaker 00 I have no clue. I have no idea what my vision is. I just knew it.
2:44 Billy Corgan? Yeah. But it certainly has a, has a personal stamp.
2:47 Speaker 00 It does? Oh, yeah.
2:49 Billy Corgan? Do you feel, you feel that?
2:50 Speaker 00 Oh, hell, yeah.
2:51 Billy Corgan? Okay.
2:51 Speaker 00 And I fought my way with almost total success of having control of my own movies.
2:57 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
2:58 Speaker 00 A couple of times, no. And, uh, and for various reasons.
3:02 Billy Corgan? Isn't it interesting that, that, uh, auteurs by and large drive great commerce, but they're, they're always the ones that are most at odds with the system that they're in?
3:12 Speaker 00 It's true. It's really true.
3:15 Billy Corgan? When you entered that system, that Hollywood system, I know you kind of came in not, you know, you didn't come in full force. It, it took time to sort of gain your, I don't know, trust is the right word in that system. What did you, what were your first impressions of the music business that was there before you actually, I'm sorry, the music business?
3:32 Speaker 00 Music business.
3:33 Billy Corgan? I'm talking my business.
3:34 Speaker 00 Wow.
3:35 Billy Corgan? What were your impressions of the movie business? Because obviously this, the studio system had long been sort of somewhat dismantled.
3:41 Speaker 00 Well, I will tell you about the music business. My father was a founding member of the Nashville Strings. And he played sessions down in Nashville.
3:51 Billy Corgan? I even have Nashville Strings albums. Or am I crazy?
3:53 Speaker 00 And I would go with him when I was young and I saw Roy Orbison, Brenda Lee, and folks like that singing in, in studio.
4:02 Billy Corgan? Is this RCA studio?
4:04 Speaker 00 Yeah, I think it was.
4:05 Billy Corgan? B?
4:05 Speaker 00 Yeah.
4:05 Billy Corgan? The little one or the big one?
4:06 Speaker 00 I, I don't know.
4:08 Billy Corgan? You know, we'd have been in the bigger one. It's almost like a big barn, if you remember.
4:12 Speaker 00 I, all I remember is looking at these strange people who are singing.
4:16 Billy Corgan? What?
4:17 Speaker 00 Roy Orbison wore sunglasses.
4:19 Billy Corgan? Yes.
4:20 Speaker 00 And he had a guy who sang harmony with him who wore sunglasses. I thought, what is going on here?
4:28 Billy Corgan? It's like something out of your movie.
4:29 Speaker 00 Well, hey.
4:32 Speaker 00 But the movie, the movie business, you want to talk about them?
4:34 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
4:35 Speaker 00 The movie business.
4:36 Billy Corgan? I love the movie business, even though I know it's terrible business for many.
4:39 Speaker 00 Well. You know, I came in late seventies with how I got in was you have to make money. It's, it's all the same stuff. It's all, if you make money, they love you. They think you're great. If you don't, you know.
4:55 Billy Corgan? Get out.
4:55 Speaker 00 Get out. So.
4:59 Speaker 00 It's, and it's never changed. It's never changed.
5:03 Billy Corgan? But was, was there a particular?
5:05 Speaker 00 And it has changed. Sorry. I'm, I'm just, I'm babbling here. It has changed enormously in many ways, but the essential is exactly the same, which is what I'm describing.
5:16 Billy Corgan? Yes.
5:17 Speaker 00 You have to be a golden boy to really succeed.
5:21 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
5:21 Speaker 00 Like Spielberg, he's a kind of the golden boy.
5:24 Billy Corgan? Well, he was kind of anointed from the beginning.
5:26 Speaker 00 He was over universal. Yeah. But, uh, but the business itself has changed a great deal.
5:34 Billy Corgan? Did you find that there was a particular ethos to the seventies version of the movie business or?
5:39 Speaker 00 Yeah. Yeah, it was, uh, they were, they were, they started experimenting with the content of movies in the sixties and that went into the seventies. A lot of rebellious going on. Sorry.
5:52 Billy Corgan? Well, easy, easy writer, easy writer was sort of the.
5:55 Speaker 00 That's correct.
5:55 Billy Corgan? The watershed.
5:56 Speaker 00 That's correct, but, uh, you know, then it sort of went back and, uh, into traditional uh, stories and such, but.
6:09 Speaker 00 It it was uh it was filled with pirates who who loved young filmmakers to take advantage of them and take their money.
6:18 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
6:18 Speaker 00 And that that's still true.
6:20 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
6:21 Speaker 00 Yeah.
6:22 Billy Corgan? Did you have a particular aspiration when you were going to film school? Like, I want to be, is it just to be a director or is it, is there, was there a vision involved?
6:30 Speaker 00 Director. I wanted to be a professional director. That's what I wanted to be. And I for since I was eight years old.
6:36 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
6:37 Speaker 00 It was my dream and I got to live it.
6:39 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
6:40 Speaker 00 Dude, I got to live in the American dream.
6:42 Billy Corgan? You did.
6:43 Speaker 00 And then when I slowed down, I got into music. Well, go figure.
6:48 Billy Corgan? Well, that's, that's a mistake, you know.
6:50 Speaker 00 No, is it really?
6:51 Billy Corgan? Once you get into music.
6:52 Speaker 00 Why?
6:53 Billy Corgan? No, it's a joke. It's a, it's a.
6:55 Speaker 00 But let's talk about something that's really serious.
6:57 Billy Corgan? Sure.
6:58 Speaker 00 And that's wrestling.
6:58 Billy Corgan? Okay.
6:59 Speaker 00 Uh, why the NB, NWA?
7:02 Billy Corgan? Well, I caught the bug for professional wrestling as a child, but then I walked away as a teen and then I found myself in my late twenties drawn into the actual business, meaning what went on behind the curtain.
7:13 Speaker 00 Uh huh.
7:14 Billy Corgan? The idea of tinkering behind the curtain to what actually showed up in the ring.
7:18 Speaker 00 Really?
7:19 Billy Corgan? Is very tempting to me.
7:20 Speaker 00 That's what you wanted to do?
7:21 Billy Corgan? Yes.
7:23 Speaker 00 Wow.
7:23 Billy Corgan? So I, I worked on the independent scene for a few years.
7:27 Speaker 00 Uh huh.
7:27 Billy Corgan? Uh, I don't know how much you know about the independent scene, but there's, you know.
7:30 Speaker 00 Not, not much.
7:31 Billy Corgan? There's hundreds and hundreds of satellite little companies.
7:34 Speaker 00 Uh huh.
7:34 Billy Corgan? That run in towns all over America.
7:36 Speaker 00 Right.
7:37 Billy Corgan? Where the, you know, weekend warriors get up and, and they, they hope to be the next Hulk Hogan or Rodney Piper, right?
7:43 Speaker 00 Sure.
7:44 Billy Corgan? Um, and some actually do make it. They'd make it, you know, like almost like a band playing in the clubs.
7:48 Speaker 00 Who, who for instance?
7:49 Billy Corgan? Well, one of the biggest stars in the world right now is CM Punk from Chicago.
7:54 Speaker 00 Uh huh.
7:55 Billy Corgan? Who literally started on the independent scene and worked his way up. And now he's one of the biggest stars in the history of wrestling.
8:01 Speaker 00 Huh? I didn't know that. I don't know him. I'm not familiar with him.
8:05 Billy Corgan? But, but I'm saying he would be comparable to, uh, to a, a, a, a Rick Rude or.
8:11 Speaker 00 Yeah, I see.
8:12 Billy Corgan? Even above that level. As a main event talent. Very unusual, kind of a one of a kind professional wrestler, very skilled, great talker, great professional wrestler.
8:22 Speaker 00 Ah, wow.
8:23 Billy Corgan? But he, but if you looked at him, you wouldn't necessarily assume, he doesn't sort of fit the classic role of professional wrestling, but he made his name on the independents.
8:32 Speaker 00 What's his finishing move?
8:34 Billy Corgan? Uh, go to sleep. It's a, it's a, you, you got, you, you kind of got a guy on your shoulders, GTS, I think they call it. And then when you pull the guy off, you hit him with your knee when he's coming down and he takes the bump like that.
8:45 Speaker 00 I see, I see.
8:46 Billy Corgan? Yeah. So, uh, I worked on the independent, kind of learned my ropes like a independent.
8:51 Speaker 00 Did you wrestle ever?
8:52 Billy Corgan? No, sir. I, I got involved.
8:54 Speaker 00 I just wanted to ask.
8:54 Billy Corgan? No, you can ask me whatever you want. Uh, I did get concussed once. That's an interesting
8:59 Speaker 00 Did you really?
8:59 Billy Corgan? Oh, yeah. I took a guitar shot in the, uh, uh.
9:03 Speaker 00 Headshots are bad news.
9:04 Billy Corgan? Remember the old brick cell phones? They were like that big.
9:07 Speaker 00 Bang?
9:08 Billy Corgan? I took one of those in the back of the head. Yeah.
9:11 Speaker 00 Ooh.
9:12 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
9:12 Speaker 00 Did you see stars floating around?
9:14 Billy Corgan? I, I saw the flash and the bang and.
9:16 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah, man.
9:18 Billy Corgan? Yeah. And then an hour later I was passing out my soup like this.
9:21 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah.
9:23 Billy Corgan? So I did that and then I ended up working for the second biggest company in America at the time, which was called TNA.
9:28 Speaker 00 I know TNA. I know who they are.
9:30 Billy Corgan? Worked in the front office, was part of the booking committee, started producing segments in the corner with the town at 10 a.m. when they were grumpy and they didn't want to talk.
9:37 Speaker 00 Sure.
9:38 Billy Corgan? So I learned how to produce television, caught the bug, had a little bit of success and was kind of held down by some of the people above me.
9:45 Speaker 00 Jealous of them?
9:47 Billy Corgan? It's, it's, it's, it's, uh, like all the arts, it's a, it's always a, enmity is a, is a, is rife.
9:54 Speaker 00 Yeah, it is.
9:55 Billy Corgan? And, uh.
9:55 Speaker 00 Yes, it is.
9:56 Billy Corgan? At some point I ended up running the company, however, briefly. And so when I got it, I thought, great, I'm done with professional wrestling, to hell with all you people. And about a month later, somebody called me and said, the NWA's for sale. Do you want it?
10:07 Speaker 00 Wow. Wow. See, that's a storied, uh, franchise. Blue Thes, that comes to mind. He was a, he used to call it a hooker, uh, somebody who could break your leg.
10:20 Billy Corgan? But you know why they, but you know why they had the hookers?
10:23 Speaker 00 Why? Why?
10:24 Billy Corgan? Okay. So if you were a travel, if you were a traveling champ.
10:27 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah.
10:28 Billy Corgan? John Carpenter's the traveling champ. You're the, you're the NWA champion of the
10:32 Speaker 00 Right.
10:32 Billy Corgan? You're going into Abilene, Texas. Okay, and you're gonna wrestle one of the funks. Okay. How do you know one of the funks isn't gonna go into business for themselves? And decide to pin you legit in the ring?
10:45 Speaker 00 Yeah.
10:46 Billy Corgan? And now you're no longer the end of the ring champ.
10:47 Speaker 00 Oh, you never know this.
10:48 Billy Corgan? So you have to be able to protect yourself.
10:50 Speaker 00 Well, that's true.
10:52 Billy Corgan? So in the 50s, 60s versions, the guys who were shooters like Fez, like Vern Gagne.
10:58 Speaker 00 He was, I know that.
10:59 Billy Corgan? They could protect themselves.
11:01 Speaker 00 Protect.
11:01 Billy Corgan? I have a fantastic story for you if you wanna hear it about Vern Gagne.
11:04 Speaker 00 Really? Yes.
11:05 Billy Corgan? So Vern Gagne, uh, in the 50s when wrestling was on television, mostly coming out of Chicago.
11:13 Speaker 00 Oh, I didn't know that.
11:14 Billy Corgan? Okay. The national product in the 50s was coming out of Chicago.
11:17 Speaker 00 Shut down, huh?
11:18 Billy Corgan? So, so, uh, people started figuring out that wrestling wasn't real. Right? Right?
11:25 Speaker 00 It's real as to these people. That's their, their damage for life.
11:30 Billy Corgan? Well, you're talking, you're talking to a lifer over here.
11:33 Speaker 00 They put their bodies out for this, this art form.
11:36 Billy Corgan? You understand, but here's the thing. So, so the fans start getting restless because they, they're not sure they're watching an authentic product. So the NWA starts recruiting NCAA wrestlers with pedigrees who are real shooters.
11:50 Speaker 00 So like who?
11:51 Billy Corgan? Vern Gagne.
11:52 Speaker 00 Him.
11:52 Billy Corgan? So they bring Vern into Chicago. Okay, it's his first day in Chicago. And they said, we, we have a gimmick for you. You're gonna come down from the ceiling in a spaceship.
12:02 Speaker 00 Oh dear.
12:03 Billy Corgan? And be a space alien.
12:04 Speaker 00 Uh huh.
12:05 Billy Corgan? And Vern said, that's not gonna happen.
12:07 Speaker 00 Uh huh.
12:08 Billy Corgan? Okay, I'm gonna go down to the wrestling ring. You send as many people as you want, and I will beat them legitimately in the ring.
12:15 Speaker 00 There you go. What's a shooter? Or a hooker, whatever you want.
12:19 Billy Corgan? Cause see, in the business, and I think you'd respect this, we know who the real shooters are.
12:23 Speaker 00 Yeah.
12:24 Billy Corgan? There might be guys and girls who are great at their job. But we know who the real badasses are.
12:30 Speaker 00 Yeah.
12:30 Billy Corgan? And those are the ones that people are really.
12:32 Speaker 00 Yeah, and you don't want to fool them because they'll just take you right out.
12:36 Billy Corgan? In front of the world.
12:37 Speaker 00 I love this conversation. Let me get my business out of the way here.
12:41 Billy Corgan? Sure.
12:42 Speaker 00 I had a dream, a really strange dream, oh, a few years ago, and I have a band and with my son and godson, so I talked to them about it and I said, let's do an album based on this dream. So I wrote the dream out and then we recorded music to the dream. And then my wife owns a comic book company, so she's doing a graphic novel of my dream. So we will release, day in day, an album and a graphic novel.
13:17 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
13:18 Speaker 00 Of my dream. Come on now, come on.
13:22 Billy Corgan? That's cool.
13:22 Speaker 00 I'm 78 years old and I get this to happen. This is fabulous.
13:26 Billy Corgan? What's the name of the?
13:27 Speaker 00 Cathedral.
13:28 Billy Corgan? Cathedral.
13:29 Speaker 00 Cathedral.
13:30 Billy Corgan? Okay.
13:31 Speaker 00 And I'm very proud of it and working on others. So that I have to get that out. You're a musician, you know.
13:40 Billy Corgan? Love it.
13:40 Speaker 00 The love of running around pimping, pimping your next album.
13:43 Billy Corgan? I have bought some of your, um.
13:45 Speaker 00 Lost.
13:46 Billy Corgan? Lost themes.
13:47 Speaker 00 Good for you.
13:48 Billy Corgan? Yes.
13:48 Speaker 00 Good for you.
13:49 Billy Corgan? I bought them on vinyl.
13:50 Speaker 00 I will take pre-orders for Cathedral if you want to put out some cash here. No? Okay. I don't know.
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14:29 Speaker 00 Anyway, let's get back to wrestling. I've done my job.
14:31 Billy Corgan? Okay, back to wrestling with the film business.
14:35 Speaker 00 I, the last guy I saw was Brett the Hitman Hart.
14:40 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
14:40 Speaker 00 And, and what a nice human being.
14:43 Billy Corgan? Yeah, very smart guy.
14:45 Speaker 00 Uh, and he was, you know, he looked up to Roddy Piper a great deal. And Roddy had brain damage, it's bad.
14:55 Speaker 00 Bad. He could, could barely show up.
14:59 Billy Corgan? Hmm.
14:59 Speaker 00 And, uh, poor guy.
15:02 Billy Corgan? Well, that's the CTE from all the, all the head trauma.
15:04 Speaker 00 Well, you know it. And, and they.
15:06 Billy Corgan? And don't forget Rod used to do the thing where he would legit bust beer bottles against.
15:10 Speaker 00 I do know this.
15:12 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
15:12 Speaker 00 And, uh, in, in the fifties and sixties, they didn't play nice. They didn't do like they do today.
15:19 Billy Corgan? No, it was, it was certainly a more rough and tumble business.
15:23 Speaker 00 Man, some of that stuff was bad.
15:25 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
15:26 Speaker 00 So you seem to just accept that. And I, I have a tough time accepting.
15:30 Billy Corgan? No, we, we try to run as safe a product as we can.
15:33 Speaker 00 Yeah.
15:34 Billy Corgan? We.
15:34 Speaker 00 You say that. You sound like a businessman.
15:37 Billy Corgan? No, no, no. I, I don't mean it that way. There's no, there's no getting around the danger.
15:42 Speaker 00 I know.
15:43 Billy Corgan? There's no getting around the danger. I mean, you've worked with professional stunt people.
15:46 Speaker 00 I know.
15:46 Billy Corgan? There's just a point where it's like, what they do is incredibly dangerous. What?
15:50 Speaker 00 But, but the difference is in, in the movie business, they're in charge. I'd say, look, the scene involves, you need to fall from up there down here. And they rig it and they do it. And they might come and say, you know what? This is dangerous this way. Let me do it this way. In wrestling, the, the promoter is the person, is the man. You get out there and.
16:11 Billy Corgan? But we don't work that way.
16:12 Speaker 00 You don't work that way.
16:14 Billy Corgan? No, I don't want anyone doing anything they don't feel comfortable doing. Not at all.
16:17 Speaker 00 Chair shots?
16:19 Billy Corgan? Don't do them to the head.
16:20 Speaker 00 Yeah. Boy.
16:22 Billy Corgan? We don't do unprotected chair shots.
16:23 Speaker 00 You don't do that.
16:24 Billy Corgan? So, so all chair shots need to be cleared by me. And they, if they have, are they going anywhere near the head? They need to be protected.
16:31 Speaker 00 Hey, what happens if that all goes, uh, you know, awry as things do in wrestling matches?
16:36 Billy Corgan? Well, then you have, then you have a problem.
16:37 Speaker 00 And what do you do about that? What do you find somebody? And here's the poor guy who has a concussion. And you know what that's like?
16:43 Billy Corgan? Yes, sir. Yeah.
16:45 Speaker 00 I'm sorry. Am I jumping on you too much?
16:47 Billy Corgan? No, no, not at all. No, I guess what you have to understand is.
16:52 Billy Corgan? Even though I'm the boss, and even though I write the shows and produce the shows out of my own pocket.
16:58 Speaker 00 Yeah.
16:58 Billy Corgan? The real relationship is between the wrestlers themselves.
17:02 Speaker 00 Yeah, it has to be.
17:03 Billy Corgan? And so they're a self-correcting body.
17:07 Billy Corgan? So what you learn as a promoter is you have to let them sort those issues out themselves.
17:12 Speaker 00 That's pretty smart.
17:13 Billy Corgan? That's, that's the only thing you can do.
17:15 Speaker 00 Pretty smart.
17:17 Billy Corgan? Because there has to be a level of professional courtesy and, and, and relatability between the talent, because what they're doing is so dangerous. This way, when people come up to you on the street and say, oh, wrestling's fake, it's like, try it.
17:29 Speaker 00 You know it. Exactly. But.
17:32 Billy Corgan? I've seen, I've seen guys blow their knees out on the most simple move in the world. Nothing. You know, you wouldn't even, you wouldn't even think twice watching it on television.
17:40 Speaker 00 Some of those holes, I don't know, the legit holes are, boy, they could cripple you if they are put on right.
17:48 Billy Corgan? But that's why, see, that's why you have the shooters.
17:50 Speaker 00 Uh huh.
17:51 Billy Corgan? Can't get anything over on them.
17:53 Speaker 00 Anyway, okay.
17:54 Billy Corgan? Back to you.
17:55 Speaker 00 Oh, dear.
17:57 Billy Corgan? Um, I saw something where you talked about how you fell in love with the, the movie business.
18:01 Speaker 00 Yeah.
18:02 Billy Corgan? Was that a good thing or a bad thing?
18:04 Speaker 00 No, it's, well, I fell in love with directing.
18:07 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
18:07 Speaker 00 I fell in love with movies. That's my muse is, is, is movies, is cinema.
18:12 Billy Corgan? Having been on a few sets in my life, I don't know how you do it because it's the pace of shooting a major motion picture is so slow.
18:21 Speaker 00 As opposed to, sorry.
18:23 Billy Corgan? Well, opposed to a lot of other things. I mean.
18:25 Speaker 00 Like what?
18:26 Billy Corgan? In order to, I don't know, I'm, you tell me, but in order to realize your vision, which is, which is holistic as an auteur, that's a lot of patience. That's a lot of time.
18:34 Speaker 00 That's correct. It is. And you have to, it goes from script to pre-production, to production, to editing in the end, to the music on the film.
18:44 Billy Corgan? And in your case, doing the music.
18:46 Speaker 00 All of that, all of that. You have to have patience and you have to remember that vision. See, that's the thing. Don't lose track of it.
18:53 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
18:54 Speaker 00 Here we are on a set, you know, we've got people who are putting up lights and it's taking a little time. Don't forget what we're doing. Go back in your head to that, what do you need here in this scene?
19:07 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
19:07 Speaker 00 You know?
19:08 Billy Corgan? So is the satisfaction for you that you've been able to build your own world? World's too large a word, but you know what I'm saying is, is the satisfaction when you sit back and it's done, you think, okay, that's why I did it. Because I don't know what that feels like. I know what it feels like for an album.
19:23 Speaker 00 What did it feel like?
19:26 Billy Corgan? It's it's as close to playing God as I've ever felt.
19:28 Speaker 00 There you go. It is. Same thing. Same exact thing. It's done. Oh, great. The thing that I love the most about movies is when they're finished. They're done. I don't have to think about them anymore. I don't have to look at them. I can see my mistakes. I look occasionally a movie of mine will be on and I'll watch it and I'll say, what was I thinking? What is that? That's too slow. And I'll start and it's horrible. So.
19:56 Billy Corgan? I just it occurred to me just in the moment. I saw a line once where Frank Capra was talking. He said, in order to film reality, have to it has to be faster on the screen. Did you find that as well?
20:06 Speaker 00 Yeah, well, yeah, he's right about that. He's a strange character. I'm not sure we should trust everything he says. But he kind of waxes.
20:16 Billy Corgan? Well, he he was one of those ones who kind of rewrote his.
20:19 Speaker 00 Oh, yeah. Oh.
20:20 Billy Corgan? It's history in reverse.
20:21 Speaker 00 Huge. Yeah.
20:24 Speaker 00 You have to play everything a little faster.
20:26 Billy Corgan? Right?
20:26 Speaker 00 Yeah, you do. You have to speed it up. And actors don't like you telling them that.
20:31 Billy Corgan? Oh, that's funny.
20:32 Speaker 00 They want to. Well, they're they're coming in just like wrestlers and they've got their own thing. Don't tell me what to do. Some of them are really.
20:40 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
20:40 Speaker 00 Tough. Anyway, go ahead.
20:42 Billy Corgan? When uh, when you looked at the uh, whatever was the system in place in the in the 1970s in America.
20:48 Speaker 00 Uh huh.
20:49 Billy Corgan? Did because because you had a particular vision, did you think I I need to figure out how to work with these people? I'm just going to figure out how to wrestle enough control so I could get my my way.
20:59 Speaker 00 Well, that's a good question. Well, I I never see in my case, I started with independent filmmaking was that nobody else was in charge but me. So that was perfect for my first two films. Then my third film I had, I told whoever I was working for. I want here's what I want for my payment. I want complete creative control and my name above the title. You don't have to pay me because I had was wanted to work my name and get a name. I want to work my way in. But after that, when you're working for a studio, oh, hey, oh, I made a movie called The Thing. And it had this. Ambiguous ending.
21:44 Speaker 00 And the stu- the people hate ambiguity.
21:46 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
21:47 Speaker 00 Audiences and studios especially. So they came and it was like a revolving door of executives coming in and trying to talk me out of that ending. And I just wouldn't budge.
21:59 Billy Corgan? So you won?
22:00 Speaker 00 Well, I won, but you know, they they fired me from a job and I was in the wilderness, but I won.
22:08 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
22:08 Speaker 00 And so that was the price of of my art, if you want to use that word.
22:15 Billy Corgan? Well, if it's any small satisfaction, one of the members of my band believes The Thing is the greatest movie ever.
22:22 Speaker 00 That's very nice. He's a wonderful human being.
22:24 Billy Corgan? I will let I will let him know.
22:26 Speaker 00 Wonderful human beings.
22:27 Billy Corgan? He said that. And it was one of those things where we were talking about movies one day, sitting around the band campfire.
22:31 Speaker 00 That's great.
22:32 Billy Corgan? And he said the he said thinks The Thing is the movie.
22:35 Speaker 00 And I thought I thought it was pretty good. I did.
22:39 Billy Corgan? I thought it was.
22:40 Speaker 00 It was pretty good. Anyway.
22:43 Billy Corgan? When you were when you were working your way up through that system doing independent, did you ever believe that you get a true big budget? Because you you made your way by sort of figuring out how to make things work for small budgets.
22:53 Speaker 00 Uh huh. Yeah.
22:54 Billy Corgan? Did you ever figure? Did you get? Did you guesstimate that you'd reach a point where you would get an actual?
22:59 Speaker 00 I never thought about it. I thought, let's get this thing done. Maybe somebody will see it and appreciate who's behind the camera. Well, let's get this done. I wasn't thinking about. I had no long-term planning, except that I'm going to be a director, you know, it's kind of this childish thing, I guess.
23:19 Billy Corgan? Yeah. Because Halloween was with 300 grand? Does that sound right?
23:23 Speaker 00 Two.
23:24 Billy Corgan? 200 grand?
23:25 Speaker 00 Two 20. I tell we had to pay extra for non-pleasantries.
23:28 Billy Corgan? And how many shoot days generally?
23:30 Speaker 00 20.
23:31 Billy Corgan? 20 shoot days?
23:31 Speaker 00 20 was maybe, yeah, 20.
23:34 Billy Corgan? Oh, you can't even make a music video for 20 days.
23:37 Speaker 00 Sure you can. Sure you can. You just have to. You have to plan it out, you know, figure it out ahead of time. Now, when you guys would make a music video, how long would it take?
23:49 Billy Corgan? Uh, one to three days.
23:51 Speaker 00 Yeah, okay.
23:53 Speaker 00 And I bet those are intense days, aren't they?
23:56 Billy Corgan? Yeah, you just wonder about all the money you're spending.
23:58 Speaker 00 I know.
23:59 Billy Corgan? Because you know, if you shoot in LA, you know, you gotta pay for the cop that's standing there eating the donut.
24:03 Speaker 00 Well, that's true, but you know, it's a big city. Well, we never, we never really, we skirted around those issues when you're low budget, you have to.
24:13 Billy Corgan? So, so I, I don't like scary movies and I blame you because.
24:16 Speaker 00 I'm sorry.
24:17 Billy Corgan? No, I saw Halloween when I was about 11 years old and.
24:21 Speaker 00 Well, you're a child, you shouldn't be watching those kind of movies.
24:23 Billy Corgan? Okay, but I'm saying that, that, that movie scared me off of scary movies for the rest of my life.
24:28 Speaker 00 Well, I'm sorry, but you know.
24:30 Billy Corgan? But I mean, as a.
24:31 Speaker 00 Who let you see that at 11? Was it your parents?
24:34 Billy Corgan? Well, if you want to get in my history as most years.
24:38 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, why would, why would a young 11 year old be allowed to see an R rated movie?
24:43 Billy Corgan? I have no idea.
24:44 Speaker 00 Okay.
24:45 Billy Corgan? But all I can tell you is it scared the bejesus out of me.
24:47 Speaker 00 Then it worked, it funny.
24:49 Billy Corgan? Yeah. But um, I still, to this day, and not that I'm a huge constrictor, I still think that's the scariest movie ever made.
24:56 Speaker 00 Exorcist, telling you.
24:58 Billy Corgan? Really?
24:58 Speaker 00 I think so. I think so.
25:00 Billy Corgan? You want to debate that?
25:01 Speaker 00 Uh, well.
25:02 Billy Corgan? So tell me why you think Exorcist is scary.
25:04 Speaker 00 Oh my God, what that little girl turns into and then.
25:08 Billy Corgan? Because Linda Blair sat in that exact chair.
25:10 Speaker 00 Yeah.
25:11 Billy Corgan? And we.
25:11 Speaker 00 I met Linda last year, last year. She's a really terrific person. Anyway, uh, it's what she said. You're walking down that hallway towards the door. You don't know what's behind there, but it's evil. Behind there. And you know, and the devil has been a character in our. Humans history for a long time, a version of the devil, pure evil. And possessing you and little girl has, uh. And disfigured and horror, she's turned into a monster.
25:42 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
25:43 Speaker 00 Oh, that's pretty tough stuff. And it's tough stuff in that movie. I was very impressed with it.
25:49 Billy Corgan? It is a great movie.
25:50 Speaker 00 Yeah, so I, I, I'm thinking that may be the scariest. But Halloween is designed to make you. Jump and scream.
25:59 Billy Corgan? Well, see, here's why it was scary to me because we were latchkey kids. So we were home alone. We were home alone a lot.
26:05 Speaker 00 Oh.
26:06 Billy Corgan? So the idea of terror.
26:08 Speaker 00 I say, I say.
26:09 Billy Corgan? Coming in from the outside in a way that you cannot navigate the terror. And in my particular circumstance, I was home alone with two younger children overnight, oftentimes with no adult in the house.
26:21 Speaker 00 Ooh.
26:24 Speaker 00 Well, now.
26:24 Billy Corgan? So I re.
26:25 Speaker 00 How much younger than you?
26:27 Billy Corgan? What's that?
26:27 Speaker 00 How much younger?
26:29 Billy Corgan? Uh, when I would have been about 10 and I would have been with a eight year old and a baby.
26:35 Billy Corgan? So the idea.
26:35 Speaker 00 Well, dude, I can't, I can't help you there. I can't.
26:38 Billy Corgan? But I think that's, I think that's why it resonated so deeply.
26:40 Speaker 00 I hear you.
26:41 Billy Corgan? This idea that if, if this awful thing walks through the door, there's nothing you can do.
26:46 Speaker 00 But I didn't design my movie for, with you in mind because I would have cautioned you, you know, this is all make believe. It's not real. It won't happen to you.
26:57 Billy Corgan? I love, yeah, I saw a quote where you were talking, they were asking you about, did you know you were making it a classic? And you said, all I saw was the rubber knife.
27:03 Speaker 00 Yeah. Oh, God, that thing, that thing. People ask me, well, you didn't show anything because we couldn't. It was rubber.
27:18 Billy Corgan? Can you just talk a little bit? You've talked about it before, but I thought it was fascinating. When you talk about the, the character of Michael Myers, this idea of the blank face and the audience projecting onto that. Can you just talk about that a little bit?
27:29 Speaker 00 He, he is a character who has no, really no past. He is nothing. He's neither human nor supernatural. He's both.
27:40 Billy Corgan? Okay.
27:41 Speaker 00 And we don't know. And that's the thing that is disturbing. We just don't know what it is that drives him. So he's blank.
27:54 Speaker 00 And he's un- kinda unkillable, kinda, but maybe he's not. So it's that uh balance between those things that made him really spooky. So the less you know about Michael Myers, the scariest, scarier he is to you.
28:12 Billy Corgan? This, the scene that blew my mind as a kid was, I think it's Jamie Lee Curtis is sort of panting in foreground and he's in the back.
28:19 Speaker 00 Yeah, it's, it's up.
28:20 Billy Corgan? It's the Undertaker spot.
28:21 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah.
28:22 Billy Corgan? Which Undertaker, I think stole from Michael Myers.
28:24 Speaker 00 Of course it is. I want my residual for that.
28:27 Billy Corgan? The ultimate co- it's the ultimate compliment.
28:29 Speaker 00 It is, yeah. But that's, that's the idea. Uh, the less you know, the scarier he is, and he's relentless. You can't stop him.
28:39 Billy Corgan? It still scares me thinking about it.
28:40 Speaker 00 Well, why? Come on.
28:42 Billy Corgan? No, it's scary. I'm serious.
28:43 Speaker 00 Okay, thank you. That's good.
28:45 Billy Corgan? Yes. Um.
28:49 Billy Corgan? You've got a lot of cred with the music community because of your scores.
28:54 Speaker 00 Really?
28:54 Billy Corgan? Yeah, I think, I think, I think your stature in the music community has grown over time as people really appreciate.
28:59 Speaker 00 Really?
28:59 Billy Corgan? They see you as a pioneering synth guy.
29:02 Speaker 00 Yeah, that, that, I thought when I first heard synths, I thought, hey, you can sound like something big.
29:08 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
29:09 Speaker 00 With keyboards.
29:10 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
29:10 Speaker 00 You know what I'm saying? You can play violin and whatever. So that's what, that's.
29:15 Billy Corgan? But you had a natural knack for it, I was, I may.
29:17 Speaker 00 Yeah, I don't, oh, I played bass in a rock and roll band when I was in.
29:21 Billy Corgan? Yes. So you at least had some musical theory behind what you were doing.
29:24 Speaker 00 My dad was a music teacher.
29:25 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
29:26 Speaker 00 And I knew music.
29:28 Billy Corgan? Bowling Green?
29:29 Speaker 00 That's right.
29:30 Billy Corgan? You ever hear the Everly Brothers song?
29:31 Speaker 00 I have, and it's not true.
29:35 Speaker 00 It's just not true. I wish it was. I wish.
29:39 Billy Corgan? Did you ever meet that Everly Brothers?
29:40 Speaker 00 I did not, no. No, no. But um, I can't remember what we were talking about.
29:46 Billy Corgan? We're all over the place today.
29:47 Speaker 00 That's okay.
29:48 Billy Corgan? We're talking about synths. I love vintage synths, so that's that's.
29:52 Speaker 00 You do, huh?
29:53 Billy Corgan? Oh, yeah.
29:54 Speaker 00 Everybody does. What is it? You like the Prophet?
29:57 Billy Corgan? I have a Prophet X.
29:59 Speaker 00 I bet you do.
30:00 Billy Corgan? Which you know is the
30:00 Speaker 00 I know.
30:01 Billy Corgan? The double.
30:01 Speaker 00 I know.
30:02 Billy Corgan? Um, I even have a Synthy, uh, 100, if you know what that is.
30:06 Speaker 00 Oh, my God. Really?
30:08 Billy Corgan? Yeah. I'm one of those. Yeah.
30:10 Speaker 00 Well, see, I, um, I worked with the, um, the synthesizer teacher at USC. It was a really great guy and he owned like a little studio and they're all tube synths. So he had to turn them, tune them up.
30:24 Billy Corgan? Oh, yeah. And tune probably every five minutes. Yeah.
30:27 Speaker 00 And, uh,
30:28 Billy Corgan? This would have been modular stuff.
30:30 Speaker 00 Yeah. That's exactly.
30:31 Billy Corgan? Was it Moog or?
30:32 Speaker 00 Some, some were. And, uh, so I would say to him, you know, look, I need, uh, I need a bass sounding thing. I need a string sounding thing. He had a piano there that I would play. So that, that was what it was. It was simple. I have medium chops. My, I don't have that good. My, my son has great chops. I don't. So I have to hide
30:59 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
30:59 Speaker 00 with the sounds.
31:01 Billy Corgan? Have you ever heard the stuff where Bob Moog is sort of explaining his philosophy on why people, uh, are attracted to synthesize?
31:08 Speaker 00 No. What did you say?
31:09 Billy Corgan? He, he believed, uh, in essence, in the spiritual component of synthesizers, that, that something in the electricity moving through the wires has a, has a spiritual component. Is that too, is that too woo woo for you?
31:21 Speaker 00 Yeah, it is. That's ridiculous.
31:25 Billy Corgan? Well, as, as someone, okay, but I, I guess what I'm argument is, it's not an argument, but, but, uh, there's something about synthesizer technology. Stockhausen, who is the pioneering.
31:35 Speaker 00 I know Stockhausen had some great ideas.
31:38 Billy Corgan? But he, his, his, Stockhausen's point about synthesizers was you cannot have sound in natural environments without the environment affecting the sound. Synthesis allows you the only way to hear sound without the environment affecting sound.
31:53 Speaker 00 Stockhausen had a piece of music he wrote, which was designed for four or five cellos being held by helicopters.
32:03 Billy Corgan? Yes.
32:04 Speaker 00 Now, come on. That's such horseshit. Come on.
32:09 Billy Corgan? But we're still talking about Stockhausen.
32:10 Speaker 00 I know. It's, it's true. It's true.
32:14 Billy Corgan? Do you ever hear the one where it's just people singing in weird rotation?
32:17 Speaker 00 No, I haven't.
32:18 Billy Corgan? That one?
32:19 Speaker 00 I
32:21 Billy Corgan? That one, that one I'll set your hair.
32:22 Speaker 00 Yeah, I bet.
32:26 Billy Corgan? When you had, when you had success and now, like you said, you're making people money and you're, and you're now a darling or a genius.
32:34 Speaker 00 For 10 seconds.
32:35 Billy Corgan? For 10 seconds, sure.
32:36 Speaker 00 And then you're, then you're a bum and then you work your way back into.
32:41 Billy Corgan? But, but just to freeze the frame for a second.
32:43 Speaker 00 All right.
32:44 Billy Corgan? When you're in that golden moment, when the phone is ringing and they're throwing scripts at you and they.
32:48 Speaker 00 I see, yeah.
32:50 Billy Corgan? I mean, I can relate in theory.
32:54 Speaker 00 Yeah.
32:55 Billy Corgan? What, did you, did you, do you think, great, now I can really do what I want to do?
33:00 Speaker 00 No, no, no, no, it was very, it was worrisome because
33:07 Speaker 00 I'm not sure this is what I want to do this way, not this way. Please just be cool, let me come up with the idea here.
33:15 Billy Corgan? Oh, I see.
33:15 Speaker 00 Let me work it through, I'll bring it to you.
33:20 Billy Corgan? The Fog was the, sort of the, the next project after the success of Halloween.
33:25 Speaker 00 It was, I had to come up with something, so my partner and I, we came up with The Fog and
33:32 Speaker 00 I was a golden boy for a bit of the time there, but, you know, but then it began to creak because if you don't produce genius material all the time, you're an idiot.
33:43 Billy Corgan? What, what, what do you think or what do you remember that they wanted you to do?
33:47 Speaker 00 Make money for them.
33:48 Billy Corgan? But I mean, did they see you, like, okay, now you're going to be the new Spielberg, you know what I'm saying?
33:52 Speaker 00 Uh, it was always on my own, I was always the new John Carpenter, you know, a scary guy.
33:59 Billy Corgan? But they, were they trying to push in any particular direction?
34:02 Speaker 00 Scary, scary makes money. And all of a sudden, at this juncture of 78, 79, a lot of scary movies began to be made. So they thought, oh, he knows what he's doing.
34:13 Billy Corgan? Yeah, because Jaws was sort of around that time.
34:16 Speaker 00 Yeah, it was a little earlier than that, but that's the idea.
34:18 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
34:18 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah.
34:19 Billy Corgan? It's a blurry memory, my childhood.
34:21 Speaker 00 It's okay, and I scared you and I probably affected that memory.
34:26 Billy Corgan? Well, you're probably to blame for something.
34:28 Speaker 00 I am, you can blame me right now.
34:32 Billy Corgan? We'll go back to wrestling. It's safe. I wanted to talk to you because like a lot of people in my generation, which is Gen X, we grew up on Saturday morning.
34:44 Billy Corgan? You know, they would show like Robbie the Robot, Tobor and.
34:48 Speaker 00 Oh, they did?
34:49 Billy Corgan? Yeah. So I grew up on all those types of movies.
34:53 Speaker 00 Robbie was in one of my favorite, the movie that got me destined to direct Forbidden Planet.
34:59 Billy Corgan? Right.
34:59 Speaker 00 You know that movie?
35:00 Billy Corgan? Of course. Yeah. Great movie.
35:02 Speaker 00 Oh, yeah. I saw it eight years old.
35:05 Billy Corgan? Just the colors of that movie.
35:08 Speaker 00 The story of it. Yeah.
35:09 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
35:10 Speaker 00 Tobor. I remember Tobor.
35:12 Billy Corgan? An early pioneering synthesizer soundtrack.
35:15 Speaker 00 Know it. And but they did it with like all sorts of strange ways. It wasn't a synth.
35:21 Billy Corgan? It's probably using oscillators.
35:23 Speaker 00 That's exactly what they did.
35:24 Billy Corgan? They probably just had the old.
35:26 Speaker 00 You know. Oh, the Barons, BB and Louis Barron. They were fabulous. I still, I have that soundtrack. I listen to it occasionally.
35:37 Billy Corgan? It's cool.
35:37 Speaker 00 Just to see what they were doing.
35:39 Billy Corgan? Yeah. So what I'm after is it's, when I see it, when I see it associated with you, it seems to diminish your work because when people call some of your work exploitation or exploitation films, you know what I'm saying? It's a particular word that's thrown around with a lot of 70s movies.
35:59 Speaker 00 I hear you. Well, there was, look, we showed PJ Soul's breasts because it was an exploitation film at the time. And that's fine with, I love exploitation films. What's wrong with them? Because they are designed to make, to appeal to a certain audience? No, it's fine. Horror movies came from there. That's fine. What's wrong with all that?
36:25 Billy Corgan? But the connective tissue, if you see it between like, let's call it the 50s kind of sci-fi, post-nuclear, 50 foot woman. Right?
36:36 Speaker 00 That's 50s. Yeah. Oh, boy.
36:38 Billy Corgan? I'm saying there's a resonant vibe there with your work. But I always see it as a sort of a form of joy. Like, like, like, let's have, like, here's the premise.
36:48 Speaker 00 Let's have fun.
36:49 Billy Corgan? Let's have fun.
36:49 Speaker 00 That's right.
36:50 Billy Corgan? And even Halloween.
36:53 Billy Corgan? So it scared the bejesus out of me. It there's, there's an element of fun and mirth in the whole thing.
36:58 Speaker 00 Well, good. I'm glad. Um, but I never thought I see, uh, critics think that horror is like pornography down there and people who do that are ugly people, you see.
37:12 Billy Corgan? I see.
37:12 Speaker 00 But now highbrow movies are what you should aspire to. And I had all my teachers, some of my teachers in, in high school and college back in Bowling Green, saw Halloween and said, oh gosh, you know, why doesn't he do something?
37:29 Billy Corgan? Oh, I see.
37:30 Speaker 00 What, you know, up here, not down there. So and a lot of critics believe that. They believe that, uh, I remember when Stephen King got some award. They thought, well, no, no, no, no, he can't be because he's a, he's a horror writer.
37:46 Billy Corgan? I see.
37:47 Speaker 00 You see, they type you.
37:49 Billy Corgan? Yes.
37:50 Speaker 00 And that's, you know, it's the way it is.
37:52 Billy Corgan? But do you, just last thing on the, on the exploitation, kind of the post-nuclear thing. Do you, is there a particular thread there with your generation because of the times that you
38:03 Speaker 00 Huge.
38:03 Billy Corgan? guys grew up in?
38:04 Speaker 00 Huge. My general, I came kind of up in the 50s.
38:10 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
38:10 Speaker 00 I was born in 48, so it was right after the, I was always lived with the, with the atomic war as a potential over my head. I thought about it a lot, too.
38:20 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
38:21 Speaker 00 Like at the end of everything.
38:22 Billy Corgan? I think where I resonate personally with, with your work is you're almost the exact age as, as my parents. No, but I, what I mean by that is I grew up in a household.
38:33 Speaker 00 Yes. Okay. I accept that. I accept the role.
38:36 Billy Corgan? Thank you.
38:37 Speaker 00 And you must not go to see Halloween at 11.
38:41 Billy Corgan? Well, they let me.
38:44 Billy Corgan? But it's the idea that there's a particular, every generation has its obsessions.
38:48 Speaker 00 Sure, sure, sure.
38:50 Billy Corgan? It's kind of, uh, you know, Picasso painted the Madonna image 42 times.
38:53 Speaker 00 I know, I know.
38:54 Billy Corgan? So, you know.
38:55 Speaker 00 Badly, 42 times.
38:58 Billy Corgan? Not a Picasso fan?
39:03 Billy Corgan? You should have gotten him a synthesizer.
39:04 Speaker 00 Exactly.
39:05 Billy Corgan? Maybe things would have been different. Um.
39:10 Billy Corgan? I love Escape from New York and we don't have to go into all the same stories, but, but it does strike me that the movie is oddly prescient because we are kind of living in Escape from New York now in many major cities.
39:21 Speaker 00 They live. They live was the movie I made about the aliens.
39:27 Billy Corgan? Well, that too, right?
39:28 Speaker 00 That, well, that's happened. That's, it's a documentary.
39:31 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
39:32 Speaker 00 And it's just my political background sneaking into a movie. I hate that. I don't like political movies. I made one and I'm ashamed now.
39:42 Billy Corgan? Sure, but let's call it just common dystopia.
39:45 Speaker 00 Okay.
39:46 Billy Corgan? I mean, you must see, you must chuckle sometimes when we look at the daily obsession of the American public.
39:51 Speaker 00 What do you think about current reality in America?
39:55 Billy Corgan? What do I think?
39:56 Speaker 00 Yeah.
39:56 Billy Corgan? I think it's a horror show.
39:57 Speaker 00 Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It is the dystopia that, that we should all fear.
40:05 Billy Corgan? I mean, and
40:05 Speaker 00 It's unreal.
40:06 Billy Corgan? Kurt Russell's trying to get away.
40:08 Speaker 00 Exactly.
40:09 Billy Corgan? For a reason.
40:09 Speaker 00 Well, he doesn't give a about all that, but they use him and they're nefarious. Well, now, oi, oi, and what I can't believe, what I can't understand is why some Americans are for this. What, what? But I'm just an old man crying in the darkness, you know, no one listens.
40:32 Billy Corgan? Well, we seem to have entered
40:34 Speaker 00 Old man crying in the darkness. No, nevermind.
40:36 Billy Corgan? But we seem to have entered, I'll give you like a quick thing. A friend of mine was a professional photographer in Chicago. He was actually in the room during the famous Kennedy Nixon
40:49 Speaker 00 Debate.
40:50 Billy Corgan? Debate that emanated out of Chicago.
40:51 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you think Nixon won?
40:54 Billy Corgan? Well, what he said was, he had no perception in the moment of how it was going to play over television.
41:02 Speaker 00 Uh huh.
41:02 Billy Corgan? His perception in the moment was completely different than the telegenic.
41:05 Speaker 00 Amazing.
41:06 Billy Corgan? And it's oftentimes cited as this kind of watershed moment.
41:09 Speaker 00 Sure, sure.
41:09 Billy Corgan? US politics turns into the telegenic era.
41:12 Speaker 00 Uh huh.
41:12 Billy Corgan? So I don't know what era this is going to ultimately be called. It's certainly not going to be called the Gilded Age, but.
41:19 Speaker 03 BJ's 42% off thank you celebration is how we say thanks for 42 years. Get 42% off ground beef, chicken drumsticks, potatoes and more through October 31st at BJ's Wholesale Club. Terms apply. Visit BJ's.com for details. Not a member? Join today.
41:34 Billy Corgan? The point I'm trying to make is.
41:37 Billy Corgan? We're into like a level of farce and idiocracy that's almost shocking, but somehow we're in it.
41:45 Speaker 00 Did you see that movie Idiocracy?
41:46 Billy Corgan? Yes, sir.
41:47 Speaker 00 Oh, it's fabulous.
41:48 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
41:49 Speaker 00 It's fabulous.
41:49 Billy Corgan? Was it Mike Judge? Mike Judge from?
41:50 Speaker 00 Yeah. Fabulous. No one talks about that. I love that.
41:54 Billy Corgan? That might be the ultimate.
41:56 Speaker 00 It's true. It's all true.
41:58 Billy Corgan? More so than Escape from New York.
41:59 Speaker 00 I think so.
42:00 Billy Corgan? Um, I had to ask you because I'm a huge Lee Van Cleef fan.
42:04 Speaker 00 Oh, yeah. Lee.
42:05 Billy Corgan? That must have been.
42:06 Speaker 00 Lee.
42:07 Billy Corgan? I'm, this is where I envy your, your chair because.
42:10 Speaker 00 He was an unusual person. He was an unusual guy. He had, I would, he, he invited me over to his place to have dinner. His wife couldn't cook a lick.
42:22 Speaker 00 And it was just awful, but he had all these loaded guns on the wall. But he was very, he said, now they are loaded. I want to just warn you, but he let me pick them up and manipulate them and. Lee, uh, he, he fell, his horse fell on his leg. And he never got it attended to by doctors. So walking was tough for him.
42:51 Billy Corgan? Okay.
42:52 Speaker 00 And there was a scene where we were in St. Louis and he had to walk down the street with, with his men. And his wife is next to me saying, I'm watching, watching to see if Lee can make it.
43:05 Speaker 00 Cause he can't walk. But, but he, he projects absolute strength. I mean, he, he knows how to act. He knows how to steal a scene. I liked Lee a lot. He was a cool guy.
43:17 Billy Corgan? What a cool.
43:18 Speaker 00 I know.
43:19 Billy Corgan? Maybe the coolest.
43:20 Speaker 00 But his wife couldn't cook, dude. I mean, going over there.
43:24 Billy Corgan? She must've been beautiful. He must've had a beautiful wife.
43:26 Speaker 00 She, she was wonderful, but.
43:30 Speaker 00 You know.
43:31 Billy Corgan? Do you ever see that, uh, Sabata, that movie Sabata?
43:33 Speaker 00 Yes. Oh, yeah.
43:34 Billy Corgan? Like he carries the movie literally on charisma.
43:37 Speaker 00 Well, he shows up in a movie and he steals the scene.
43:40 Billy Corgan? Unbelievable.
43:41 Speaker 00 Yeah. Because of how he looks and how he acts and he's got it.
43:46 Billy Corgan? What is the, it's the, you know, the famous, you brought up the director, the Italian director, the famous.
43:52 Speaker 00 Sergio Leone.
43:54 Billy Corgan? You got Eastwood, Lee Van Cleef, and who was the other actor? I can't think of his name.
43:58 Speaker 00 Eli Wallach. That was a great movie. However, Once Upon a Time in the West is maybe the greatest Western. It's, it's an opera.
44:08 Billy Corgan? But did Leone do that movie?
44:10 Speaker 00 Yeah.
44:10 Billy Corgan? Okay.
44:11 Speaker 00 He had Charles Bronson, Henry Fonda, Claudia Cardinelli. Oh, my God. Claudia's left us now, unfortunately.
44:21 Billy Corgan? God bless her.
44:21 Speaker 00 Yeah, I know.
44:22 Billy Corgan? What a beauty.
44:22 Speaker 00 I know.
44:23 Billy Corgan? Was Fellini, Fellini saw that too, right?
44:25 Speaker 00 Oh, yeah. Early.
44:27 Billy Corgan? God bless.
44:28 Speaker 00 You know how Fellini directed?
44:30 Billy Corgan? I do not know.
44:30 Speaker 00 He had actors and he would kneel down beside them and he would, the girls, he would squeeze their legs and say, A, B, C. And they, they say it in, in Italian, B, C. And he'd squeeze their legs when he wanted them to recite the alphabet. And then he would dub in later, whatever he wanted. I'm not kidding. I am not kidding you. Terence Stamp did a movie with him and, and his direction was, you're bisexual and you've just taken a load of LSD. And go. And that was his, that was his direction. And that's what he did. That's what he played. A, B, C, D, E, F. Isn't that incredible?
45:16 Billy Corgan? Incredible. Do you have a favorite Fellini movie? Are you a Fellini fan?
45:21 Billy Corgan? Too arty?
45:21 Speaker 00 Sorta. Yeah. Well, some of them are arty. I liked, I'm gonna, Roma for the Pope fashion show. I love the Pope fashion. The priest's fashion show. I love that.
45:38 Billy Corgan? Morricone to me is such an incredible, I know you worked with them and I'm, I can't, from what I saw, I can't tell if you enjoyed the experience or not.
45:46 Speaker 00 Oh, yeah. A wonderful man.
45:48 Billy Corgan? Cool.
45:49 Speaker 00 But couldn't speak English?
45:50 Billy Corgan? Yeah. And you couldn't speak Italian.
45:52 Speaker 00 Exactly. So.
45:53 Billy Corgan? Did you, did you enjoy the experience of working with him?
45:56 Speaker 00 I loved it.
45:56 Billy Corgan? Can you, can you?
45:57 Speaker 00 He was ahead of me. Morricone knew the theme of my movie before I knew it. I was, I wasn't, I hadn't gotten to the heart of darkness yet, but he got there immediately. He knew. This movie was about the end of everything. It's all over. He knew it and he put it in his music. And I remember listening when he was conducting the orchestra and I thought, oh, he's right. He's right. There's no way out of this. If you are an imitation of a, of a, an aggressive creature,
46:38 Speaker 00 I, I won't be able to tell. And you can take me over. It's over. Humanity's done and I'm, I'm, I'm serious.
46:47 Billy Corgan? I see.
46:48 Speaker 00 And so I had to embrace that as a director. He, he paved the way.
46:53 Billy Corgan? Yeah. Yeah. He, he strikes me as such an intuitive composer for film.
46:58 Speaker 00 Yeah. He was like experimental. Uh, that's where he came from.
47:02 Billy Corgan? But it's, but it's, it's, it's almost impossible to kind of quantify.
47:06 Speaker 00 Exactly.
47:08 Billy Corgan? How he knows what to do, but he just knows what to do. And he did it over so many different genres of film.
47:14 Speaker 00 And yeah, for different people. Exactly.
47:16 Billy Corgan? I've, I've had thirty meetings in Hollywood begging them to let me be Morricone.
47:22 Speaker 00 Really?
47:22 Billy Corgan? And that they won't let me through the door.
47:25 Speaker 00 What, what?
47:26 Billy Corgan? Yeah. Because they basically say.
47:27 Speaker 00 Who do you meet with?
47:28 Billy Corgan? All of them. I met with, I met with the, I went multiple times. I met with the head of every movie.
47:34 Speaker 00 Well, see, those are the, those are the suits. We call them suits.
47:38 Billy Corgan? Okay. You tell me who I need to meet with.
47:39 Speaker 00 With directors. The, the guys who make the movie.
47:42 Billy Corgan? But see, there aren't auteurs like you. Or are.
47:46 Speaker 00 There may be. There may be guys.
47:48 Billy Corgan? Tell me, cause I, I.
47:49 Speaker 00 I don't know. Excuse me. I don't know, but you need to investigate and find those guys.
47:57 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
47:59 Speaker 00 And meet with them. And tell them what you want to do.
48:02 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
48:03 Speaker 00 And they'll get you in there.
48:04 Billy Corgan? Okay, I like, I like your thinking. I have one, one quick story to share with you. So I was doing a, a, music for a film called Stigmata, which was a nineties kind of.
48:13 Speaker 00 Sure. Oh, I know the director.
48:15 Billy Corgan? Okay. Yeah, he, he, he didn't like me very much.
48:18 Speaker 00 Well.
48:20 Billy Corgan? But here's the funny story, if you, if you don't mind.
48:22 Speaker 00 Please.
48:23 Billy Corgan? So, uh, uh, the, uh, the producer of the film was a huge fan of mine and in crew, recruited me to be involved. The director, uh, wasn't so sure.
48:35 Speaker 00 Do you know his name?
48:36 Billy Corgan? Uh, Rupert, uh.
48:38 Speaker 00 Wayne Wright.
48:39 Billy Corgan? Right. So anyway, so, uh, Rupert, uh, wasn't, wasn't so sold on my musical approach.
48:47 Speaker 00 He wasn't.
48:48 Billy Corgan? He was not. So they hired like a typical.
48:51 Speaker 00 Really?
48:52 Billy Corgan? You know, paint by numbers.
48:53 Speaker 00 Wait a minute, uh, uh, um, in addition to you?
48:56 Billy Corgan? Yes, on top of me.
48:58 Speaker 00 Did you know about it?
48:59 Billy Corgan? Oh, yeah. I had no fear because I knew I would beat the guy.
49:02 Speaker 00 Yeah, okay.
49:04 Billy Corgan? So the apocryphal scene in the movie is Gabriel Byrne, who was the lead. He goes into this courtyard and all these supernatural things are happening. And I took a very atonal atmospheric approach.
49:18 Speaker 00 Uh huh.
49:19 Billy Corgan? And the director hated it. I mean, he hated it.
49:23 Speaker 00 It must be good then.
49:24 Billy Corgan? So he insisted that I change it. And I said, well, read my contract. I don't have to change anything.
49:31 Speaker 00 Good for you, see?
49:32 Billy Corgan? I don't have to change anything, but you're more than welcome to, to change, replace it. I have no control over that. So he had the other guy do exactly what you'd expect, swelling strings and. And, uh.
49:46 Speaker 00 How was it?
49:47 Billy Corgan? Well. They, they tested both scenes. And mine got the higher score.
49:53 Speaker 00 I'm sure it did.
49:55 Billy Corgan? So I won.
49:57 Speaker 00 Rupert Wainwright directed the remake of The Fog.
50:02 Billy Corgan? Oh my goodness, did not know that.
50:03 Speaker 00 Yeah.
50:04 Billy Corgan? So that's now we're connected.
50:05 Speaker 00 Yep, we are, we are.
50:07 Billy Corgan? I'm sure he's still cursing my name somewhere. Um, I like what you said about, um,
50:15 Billy Corgan? I guess in a positive way that the, the business you were in, you were dealing with riverboat gamblers at the studios. They were willing to take risks on someone.
50:22 Speaker 00 Someone, yeah.
50:23 Billy Corgan? Yeah. Can you at least elaborate on that a little bit?
50:27 Speaker 00 Well, this is, this goes back to the founding of movies there. The, the early guys were all riverboat gamblers. They would, you come in with an idea and they'd try it, you know? And they, they do odd things. They go off in this direction. They had a, they had movies that they made, they knew would make money.
50:47 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
50:47 Speaker 00 This is back in the thirties and forties.
50:49 Billy Corgan? Sure.
50:49 Speaker 00 But they tried different things.
50:51 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
50:52 Speaker 00 And, uh, go ahead.
50:54 Billy Corgan? Did you respect the studio system looking back?
50:56 Speaker 00 Huge, huge, and it worked. It worked.
50:59 Billy Corgan? What an incredible trove of movies that were made.
51:01 Speaker 00 But, uh, yes, incredible films. But look, a movie like, uh, they, they put the Wizard of Oz, they put so much into that film. It kept recasting it and the directors would come and go.
51:14 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
51:14 Speaker 00 My God. I mean, it was, it's amazing film. So, no, those guys were fantastic and the system they developed really works.
51:23 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
51:24 Speaker 00 But they've got into that now.
51:25 Billy Corgan? Would you, would you like to work in that system?
51:28 Speaker 00 Kinda.
51:29 Billy Corgan? Right?
51:29 Speaker 00 Kinda.
51:30 Billy Corgan? Kinda, kinda not.
51:31 Speaker 00 But kinda not, yeah.
51:33 Billy Corgan? But what I think of, when I think of the studio system, cause I'm a huge fan. I mostly only watch movies from the thirties. That's kind of my, my.
51:39 Speaker 00 Turner classics? You watch that.
51:41 Billy Corgan? No, I go, I got on my way to watch stuff that's like, you can't even find anywhere.
51:45 Speaker 00 Is that right?
51:46 Billy Corgan? I like studio pictures that are, I guess you would call them programmers, but.
51:49 Speaker 00 Like?
51:51 Billy Corgan? I mean, these weird musicals that are completely lost to history.
51:55 Speaker 00 Uh huh.
51:56 Billy Corgan? You know, but oftentimes there'll be a decent director attached to it. It'll be Harry Warren wrote the songs. You know, like there's, I guess what I would say about the studio system is it's less to me about whether or not somebody hit a homerun in every movie, but the quality level is so high because the carpenters were working all the time. The, the, the, the, the character actors, the, you know, the Frank Morgans of the world.
52:17 Speaker 00 You know it, man.
52:18 Billy Corgan? They were so skilled that you could plug them into a movie.
52:21 Speaker 00 You know it.
52:22 Billy Corgan? You had a level of consistent quality that you cannot find in modern filmmaking.
52:27 Speaker 00 It does, yeah, because they gutted the system, I'm telling you.
52:29 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
52:30 Speaker 00 There are no character actors. Well, Hollywood, the actors in Hollywood are in trouble.
52:35 Billy Corgan? Well, they're definitely, they're definitely in trouble now.
52:37 Speaker 00 Yeah.
52:38 Billy Corgan? They keep kicking the can on AI.
52:39 Speaker 00 I know. Oh, God.
52:41 Billy Corgan? You want to jump into the AI?
52:42 Speaker 00 I, I don't know enough about it, except it's pumps, props, right? Is that the idea?
52:47 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
52:48 Speaker 00 We, yeah, I don't, I don't get it.
52:51 Billy Corgan? Yeah. I know, I know. Uh, somebody just told me the other day that somebody's setting up a multi-billion dollar AI production studio.
53:01 Speaker 00 Uh huh.
53:01 Billy Corgan? So basically, if you want a third, if you were making a new film and you needed a scene where your character was going to walk across a desert and you don't have the hundred and fifty grand to blow on the scene.
53:11 Speaker 00 You go there, huh?
53:13 Billy Corgan? And you go there and they'll put your guy or girl walking across the desert and Bob's your uncle, as they would say.
53:20 Speaker 00 Yeah, great.
53:21 Billy Corgan? Well, we'll see, you know, jury's still out on that.
53:23 Speaker 00 Yeah.
53:24 Billy Corgan? But it's certainly going to wreak havoc havoc on this town in terms of.
53:27 Speaker 00 Well, it'll change everything and you know, find the actors and, and the creative people are fighting against it.
53:35 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
53:35 Speaker 00 Because it's, but we'll see, we'll see what happens.
53:39 Billy Corgan? Um, do you see an autour class in the current landscape?
53:46 Speaker 00 Not many, few here and there. Yeah, sure.
53:50 Billy Corgan? Do, do.
53:51 Speaker 00 Jordan Peele, I think is pretty great.
53:53 Billy Corgan? Do some of them reach out to you for, for?
53:55 Speaker 00 Nah, you don't give a shit.
53:58 Speaker 00 That old guy, we don't want to talk to him.
54:01 Billy Corgan? I'd love to talk to you. I mean, it's just like, to me, you're, you're, you stood in such a unique spots.
54:08 Speaker 00 I did. I had my, my time in it and I'm really happy about that. I got to live my dream. It's a, I really did.
54:16 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
54:16 Speaker 00 It's astonishing. Who would have thought this idiot from Bowling Green could be a director?
54:22 Billy Corgan? For people who aren't knowledgeable about your work, what's the one film you would point them at to say, this was the best?
54:29 Speaker 00 I know.
54:29 Billy Corgan? I'm not saying pick, it, it, cause I, I hate when people ask me, what's my favorite album? They're all my favorite album.
54:34 Speaker 00 Yeah, of course.
54:35 Billy Corgan? And I hate them all and I love them all.
54:36 Speaker 00 Exactly.
54:37 Billy Corgan? Because I understand, but I'm, I'm saying is if you, if, if you wanted to say, hey, if I want you, if I want you to watch one film, watch this one film, because I think this is the best kind of balance of what I was at.
54:48 Speaker 00 Watch the thing, just check it out. And see if it affects you emotionally anyway.
54:55 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
54:55 Speaker 00 I would say that, or Hollywood. I don't know.
54:57 Billy Corgan? No, no, no, but.
54:59 Speaker 00 But I think that's it.
54:59 Billy Corgan? But no, it's helpful.
55:00 Speaker 00 I'm proud of the thing.
55:01 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
55:02 Speaker 00 Very proud of it.
55:03 Billy Corgan? Yeah. Cause certainly.
55:05 Speaker 00 And I'm also proud of Cathedral, my new album, which I'm pimping here with you today.
55:10 Billy Corgan? We're not sure when this is coming out, coming out, but it's going to definitely come out soon in 2026. So.
55:14 Speaker 00 Great.
55:15 Billy Corgan? Is it, is the Cathedral thing out yet or it's coming?
55:17 Speaker 00 Not yet. It's coming.
55:18 Billy Corgan? Okay. So when's it actually coming out?
55:20 Speaker 00 God, if I know. May sometime. I don't know.
55:22 Billy Corgan? See, this is why you had trouble in Hollywood.
55:24 Speaker 00 It is.
55:25 Billy Corgan? You gotta promote your stuff.
55:26 Speaker 00 Well, I'm old now in my memory, you know, but anyway.
55:30 Billy Corgan? Okay. Last, last, last silly question.
55:32 Speaker 00 Okay.
55:33 Billy Corgan? How do you think, uh, the Hawkses and the Hitchcocks and the Fords of the world would look at our, our current?
55:40 Speaker 00 Time right now?
55:41 Billy Corgan? Yeah. Not just the time we're in, but, but the way movies are being made.
55:45 Speaker 00 Oh, they'd scratch their heads and say, what, what's happening? That was just so alien to them, the way they worked. The way they made their movies.
55:57 Speaker 00 Um, nobody would care that much. That's the thing.
56:03 Billy Corgan? See, that hurts because when you say it, I feel that's true and it hurts.
56:06 Speaker 00 It just, they don't care. And I'm not sure a big segment of the audience cares anymore. I'm, I'm sorry, but they don't care.
56:15 Billy Corgan? There's this one thing that I'm thinking of. Um, uh, at the end of The Searchers.
56:21 Speaker 00 Oh, yeah.
56:22 Billy Corgan? There's that scene where Wayne sort of walks out the door.
56:25 Speaker 00 He holds his hand like character.
56:28 Billy Corgan? You knowing what I'm talking about gives me chills.
56:30 Speaker 00 Yeah.
56:30 Billy Corgan? That sense of honor within the genre and genre is too small a word. The nobility of the American film when it's spot on.
56:42 Speaker 00 Yeah.
56:44 Billy Corgan? And Wayne's ability as an actor and as a human being to understand the symbolism of that moment.
56:49 Speaker 00 That's correct.
56:50 Billy Corgan? Where's that gone?
56:51 Speaker 00 It's, it ain't here. That's a great scene because there's no place for this guy anymore. He needs to ride on.
57:01 Billy Corgan? Yeah. Thank you, sir.
57:03 Speaker 00 You got it, man?
57:03 Billy Corgan? Love talking to you.
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