JRE MMA Show #183 with Rico Verhoeven

Joe sits down with professional boxer, kickboxer, and mixed martial artist Rico Verhoeven.www.youtube.com/@RicoVerhoeven https://ricoverhoeven.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

• 0:13Speaker 00

  Good to see you champ.

• 0:14Speaker 01

  Yes sir.

• 0:15Speaker 00

  We were just trying to figure out how long it's been. What year, when was the last one we did together? I think it was 2017. Almost 10 years.

• 0:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:23Speaker 00

  Or might have been 16.

• 0:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, yes.

• 0:27Speaker 00

  Was it really?

• 0:29Speaker 01

  Nah.

• 0:31Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 0:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, he has the data. He's got it.

• 0:37Speaker 01

  Maybe we just got punched in the head a little bit too much.

• 0:39Speaker 00

  A little bit. Well, listen man, I want to tell you that that fight with Usyk was one of the craziest things that I've ever seen in my life. Never in my life did I think a guy who would go straight from kickboxing, did you have any professional boxing matches?

• 0:57Speaker 01

  One.

• 0:58Speaker 00

  One. One professional.

• 1:00Speaker 01

  I've been boxing for 15 years.

• 1:01Speaker 00

  Of course. Well, also, you're arguably the greatest kickboxer of all time.

• 1:06Speaker 01

  Thank you, thank you, appreciate that.

• 1:07Speaker 00

  And you have a fight with arguably the greatest boxer in the heavyweight division ever. He's in the conversation.

• 1:15Speaker 01

  100%.

• 1:15Speaker 00

  100% in the conversation of the greatest boxer in the heavyweight division ever. And you won 10 fucking rounds, man. You won 10 rounds.

• 1:24Speaker 01

  Close to that, yeah.

• 1:25Speaker 00

  I mean, I don't give a fuck what those judges were saying. Those judges are trying to say it was close, like it was almost like you were up, I think one of them had you up by one round and the other ones had a draw.

• 1:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that's...

• 1:38Speaker 00

  That's a crime. If that went to the scorecards and somehow or another you lost that decision, that would have been a crime. A crime.

• 1:46Speaker 01

  I know, and I gotta be honest, I think, like, we're just straight jumping into it, so, and like, ah, I think that's, that's the hard part of it. It like, I don't like losing, but I don't, if it happens, it happens. But I think that's the part that, that makes it even harder, that I've, it felt so unjust and...

• 2:10Speaker 00

  It felt unjust. The stoppage felt unjust. It didn't seem like it made sense. It looks like they were looking for a way to stop the fight.

• 2:17Speaker 01

  Exactly, but next to that, like, you say this as a combat sports commentator for years and pray, you've been in the sport for so many years, and all other professional boxers and commentators, et cetera, they all see the fight a certain way, like you saw it, like how I experienced it, and then when we look at the scorecards, we get like a totally different fight. Like, what is going on there? And that is for me where the toughness is of the whole experience.

• 2:54Speaker 00

  Right. It's very difficult to accept. And if you had lost by decision, it would have been insanity. And we've seen those insane decisions before, and I never know what's going on. You know, I don't want to think it's corruption, but it's almost worse if it's incompetence. If you have someone who's judging a fight, which is like the most pivotal fight arguably of your career, you think about how long you've been reigning as the heavyweight champion of kickboxing, for like a decade, which is crazy at the highest level. Like, especially at the heavyweight division. It is so hard to stay at the top. Nobody does. Everybody's like, even in the UFC, it's like one, two fights, and then they fall off. If you had to be the heavyweight champion and have fucking wars, like Jamal Ben Siddique,

• 3:39Speaker 00

  that fight, like, some of these fights, you've had wars, and to come out on top every single fucking time. And then you have this enormous fight, and you have terrible judging. Terrible judging. And it's like, it's almost worse if it's incompetence, because if you've got these people that don't know what they're watching, and they're calling, like, their eyes, their decision makes a difference about whether it's a W or an L, and it doesn't make any sense. It's not fair, it's not right. I think at this point in time, they should really seriously consider having alternative scoring. I think there should be more, one of the things I like about Glory, is that Glory has more than three judges. What do they have, four or five?

• 4:24Speaker 01

  Hmm, five, I believe.

• 4:25Speaker 00

  Five. I think five's the right number. I think three is too few. Because you could have two people fuck it up, and one person gets it right, and then, but if you had two more judges, the odds are they're gonna get it right too. But usually, the people that fuck it up, it's the minority.

• 4:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, but if you ask me, like, next to us as athletes putting our health on the line, which makes it very, very hard thing to cope with, but also for the people watching the fight.

• 4:56Speaker 00

  Right.

• 4:56Speaker 01

  It's like, it, like you said, it feels unjust, and I definitely feel like, especially in the time that we're in now, everybody wants transparency. If we look at the World Cup that just finished, like, even there, when something happens, the referee is still a person. He can make like a mistake, he can look at the foul, and he's like, I saw it this way, but now what they're doing, they're looking at the VAR, they're looking at the cameras.

• 5:27Speaker 00

  Right.

• 5:28Speaker 01

  And multiple people are looking at it, and like, hey, we can interpret it, the rules like this, because this happened, we can see this, and this is wrong. So, even it's gonna be a card, or it's gonna be a penalty or whatever, there's, this is what's happening. But within this situation, it's just like, if you ask me, and it's still possible, it's a human being, the referee made a mistake, and that is possible, but there should be people or a situation where it's like, hey, sorry ref, but you made a mistake, this wasn't the right call, so we can overturn it in a split of a second.

• 6:11Speaker 00

  The only thing that's really hard to do with that subjectively is fight stoppages. Because sometimes, at least in MMA, a referee sees things in a fighter that you might not see things watching on television, or sitting at my seat as a commentator, a referee will see a guy's eyes roll back in his head, he'll see something that I don't see, and I'll go, oh, I thought that was a little quick, and then, but they're right on top of it. They see, they see certain things that you might not be able to see.

• 6:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that's the thing, we, I appealed it. I appealed it, and, and everything we appealed upon, we got, they said like, you guys were right. We got stopped after the bell.

• 6:55Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 6:56Speaker 01

  Right after the, after the stoppage, the doctor came, he's, I wasn't disorientated, I didn't have no concussion or whatever symptoms, so everything, everything we got, they, they were like, no, you're right, you're right, you're right, but...

• 7:13Speaker 00

  They never overturn it.

• 7:14Speaker 01

  They never overturn nothing.

• 7:15Speaker 00

  Also, how would they overturn it? Would they go to the judges' scorecards? And if they did go to the judges' scorecards, what would it be, a majority draw? Because if you are down, or you're even on both cards, and then up on one, and then, did they count the knockdowns in the final round? Because if they did, you might have lost that fight, which is even crazier.

• 7:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. But then you have something like, hey, guys, let's look at the scoring cards again, and that, like, and other, that other people, other judges look at the scorecards, and look at the fight, and score it again, because...

• 7:51Speaker 00

  Well, here's where you know it's crazy.

• 7:52Speaker 01

  Doesn't make any sense.

• 7:53Speaker 00

  Here's where you know it's crazy. It was the most competitive fight of Usyk's career as a heavyweight champion.

• 7:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:58Speaker 00

  And they're not even talking at all about a rematch.

• 8:00Speaker 01

  No.

• 8:01Speaker 00

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• 10:42Speaker 01

  That's a good, that's a good thing that you just brought that up, because before this fight, you heard the whole conversation, okay, we're gonna do Rico, after that, I wanna fight the winner of Dubois, Wardley, and after that, I wanna fight Tyson Fury again.

• 10:58Speaker 00

  Right.

• 11:00Speaker 01

  The other two are not in the conversation anymore. So without taking too much credit for it, I think like with this fight, he saw like hmm, this was a little harder than I expected. So let's take a, let's take a different route. And for me, I don't want a rematch just to have the rematch. I would like the rematch because it makes sense. There's a story within this rematch.

• 11:27Speaker 00

  It's huge.

• 11:28Speaker 01

  And it's something that it is unfinished business.

• 11:33Speaker 00

  Yes, it's a Rocky story, a real live Rocky story.

• 11:36Speaker 01

  Hundred percent. And that's why for me, where I'm looking at now, I'm like in the fall of my, or maybe in the winter of my career as an athlete. And I just want to do big fights that make sense. And then you're like, oh, this is what I want to see.

• 11:51Speaker 00

  Not only that, as a promoter, what makes more sense than that fight? The Deontay Wilder fight, again, all respect to Deontay, I love that guy. He's one of the greatest knockout artists in the history of the heavyweight division. He's not the same guy. He's not the same guy, for whatever reason. This, it happens to everybody, right? I think he's 40 now, right? It happens to everybody. You just got off of a crazy performance. And the whole world got to see it. If any fight warrants a rematch, it's that fight. That fucking rematch would be gigantic. It would be so huge. It's the ultimate Rocky story. I was watching that fight on the edge of my seat. The fight starts, I'm like, how's this gonna go down? How's this gonna go down? I'm like, whoa.

• 12:34Speaker 00

  First of all, I'm like, holy shit, Rico's fucking huge. You realize how big you are. And you know, Usik is a cruiserweight. He's a cruiserweight to put on weight to become a. He could still make cruiser. If he wanted to, if he wanted to get really lean, he could still make cruiser easily. You're way bigger than him. I'm like, that's a giant factor. And then it's your experience, your world championship level experience. You've been in so many big fights. You look so calm and so relaxed and so in the moment. And I was like, holy shit, he might pull it off. And then it got into like the third, fourth and fifth round. I'm like, I don't see this changing. I'm like, this is crazy.

• 13:12Speaker 01

  It's so funny, if you hear the commentators, they were like, okay, Rico's moving a lot and he's fainting and he's doing this and he's doing that. But how long can he keep this up?

• 13:21Speaker 00

  Well, they don't know about your card though.

• 13:23Speaker 01

  Exactly. There was one commentator that also commentated for glory.

• 13:28Speaker 00

  Well, Alster, Alster was there.

• 13:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, he was also there, he was also there. But the commentator for glory, that he knew like that cardio wise, I live in the gym. That's what, and you know as well, like I, I love this. So I don't, I'm never gonna lose on, on cardio because then I lose for myself.

• 13:48Speaker 00

  No, you're an anomaly in terms of like 260 pound men. There's very few guys that are as big as you that push a pace like you did. So I wasn't, when they were saying that, I was like, you guys, you know, you guys don't understand what you're seeing here. He's gonna be able to do this all night long. And you know, credit to Usik for finally catching you and rocking you, but the fight was stopped too, too quickly. It just was.

• 14:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, hundred percent.

• 14:12Speaker 00

  You were still okay. You got in a world championship fight that's that close. Not even really that close. You were that far ahead. You gotta give someone a chance.

• 14:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, but let's, let's reverse it. Let's, what if he was in this position?

• 14:28Speaker 00

  There was no way they would stop that fight. No way. Look, it's either incompetence or corruption. And I tend to think corruption. This is like, I think these guys want to keep judging fights and they want the favor of the promoters and the money is in Usik. Usik is a huge name. He's a, he's their big star in the heavyweight division.

• 14:48Speaker 01

  They don't, they don't want like a guy coming in from a different sport.

• 14:53Speaker 00

  One professional boxer.

• 14:54Speaker 01

  Exactly, and making the biggest, making the biggest upset in boxing history. That would be, that would be pretty crazy.

• 15:02Speaker 00

  It really almost was the biggest upset in boxing history. I mean, it was crazy. It was really crazy to watch, man. But you were the perfect guy to do it because of the pace thing. Because of the fact that you are so big and you can push that insane pace and keep it up for the 12 rounds.

• 15:18Speaker 01

  And also game plan wise, we were so smart on the game plan. We did something that he has not seen before, that he has not experienced before, even though he fought the best boxers in the world. But all the boxers, what they were trying to do is outbox, the heavyweight boxers were trying to outbox a cruiserweight. How in the hell are you gonna do that? He's lighter, he's smaller, and he's faster. So how are you gonna?

• 15:46Speaker 00

  And he's super technical.

• 15:47Speaker 01

  Exactly. So how are you gonna outbox him? You just gotta have a super strong game plan and that's what we had.

• 15:54Speaker 00

  So when you looked at it, when you first got the offer, first of all, how far out did you get the offer? How far out away from the fight? How much time did you have to prepare?

• 16:03Speaker 01

  Well, did, did you, did you, do you know the story, how I got into this whole thing?

• 16:09Speaker 00

  No.

• 16:09Speaker 01

  Okay. It's a crazy story. Okay, let me tell you. So it all started with the Canelo Crawford fight. And Jason Statham is a good friend of mine. And I saw he was in Vegas for that fight. So I texted him, I was like, yo, you were there for that fight? Oh my God, yeah, this is gonna be crazy. So we went back and forth. I was like, yeah, bro. So he told me, brother, you need to be in boxing because he was at the tournament, one of the eight man tournament a few years ago. So he comes to my fights and he's like, oh, you, you gotta be, you gotta be in here. You're gonna kill these guys. I said, yeah, yeah, I think I could do pretty good. He's like, you know what?

• 16:52Speaker 01

  I'm gonna throw it out there and let's see what happens. Okay, so that was, uh, let me see, that was Vegas time during the day, so Amsterdam time, it was nighttime. So the next morning, I'm, I'm on the treadmill, I'm running. The phone rang. Jason said, yo, bro, I'm on the treadmill, let me call you back. Listen, I put your name out there, I showed your videos and they're going crazy, they want you. So I jumped off, I was like, what do you mean? They said, they wanna do something. They're gonna call you. I gave them your contact, like, okay. So that's, that's how it started. A few days later, they called me, Rico, we want you to fight, blah, blah.

• 17:33Speaker 01

  We love what you do and we want you to fight Anthony Joshua. So I'm like, okay, let's go. I'm ready for this opportunity. But I was on the set of Roadhouse 2. So it was like, oh shit, now we gotta combine everything. I got my trainer coming in like during, yeah, during takes and like, okay, we do some pad work and, and then finally, uh, we were supposed to fight in February. So I think the deal came around October, October, November. So I had like around 10, 10 good weeks to, to train. And then finally, I finished off the movie in December and he, uh, but in between, Joshua

• 18:17Speaker 01

  got the offer to fight Jake Paul for a crazy amount of money. He was like, of course, I'm gonna do that. And then after that, I'm gonna, gonna do the Rico fight. Perfect. Okay, he does the Jake Paul fight, well, they went like, I would win. And then they reached out like, can we push the fight a little bit instead of February to March? Like, I'm good. The more time I get, the better. So to train, to, to transition into boxing. So that happened and then the end of the, like two weeks later, that tragic accident happens. So there was.

• 18:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, we're talking about Anthony Joshua. He was in Africa, terrible car accident, killed two of his friends.

• 18:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, terrible. So that derailed that whole situation. But I had a whole training plan scheduled. I was going to Spain to train there for a month. But I didn't know what was gonna happen. So I just did what I had to do and I just continued training. So I was in Spain, training, training, training. And then at the end of that training camp, they, uh, we were talking about it and they said like, yeah, we don't think, and also with, with this manager, Eddie Hearn, like, I don't know if he's gonna be back soon. So what do you want to do? You wanna wait or you wanna fight? I'm already training, so I would like to fight somebody, but we don't know what makes sense. No, let's think about it. So we thought about, we thought about it, they thought about it.

• 19:41Speaker 00

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• 20:10Speaker 01

  And then we were talking about, hey, what about, what about Usik? Does that make sense?

• 20:14Speaker 00

  Was it your idea?

• 20:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was our idea. I'm like, yeah, that makes sense, why not? Because he's the, he's the top dog. He's like undisputed kickboxing champion versus the undisputed boxing champion. Like, there's a story there. I was like, let's just throw it out there and let's see what they say. Okay. Pick up the phone, call them. Yo, yo guys, yeah, we have an idea. So I pitched them the whole idea, undisputed versus undisputed. Silence. My god, what did I just do?

• 20:47Speaker 01

  Then the first thing I hear back. We love it.

• 20:52Speaker 00

  Whoa.

• 20:53Speaker 01

  I said, okay, what does that mean?

• 20:57Speaker 01

  What does that mean? So, uh, so they said, you know what? We're gonna talk to Usik's team and we're gonna come back to you, something like, and then in two weeks, they went to Usik. Usik loved the idea as well, so, uh, again, big shout out to him for taking that fight as well, because he had hundreds of options and he took this fight, uh, outside the box. So I love it also to, uh, to His Excellency Turkey Alashik for setting this whole thing up.

• 21:25Speaker 00

  Oh, he has set up so many great fights. He's so important to boxing right now.

• 21:29Speaker 01

  Super, super, super much respect for both of them and thankful also to Jason, of course, for setting this whole thing up.

• 21:34Speaker 00

  Shout out to Jason.

• 21:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, and getting me into, yeah, getting me into the conversation. Um, and then like, so that was after two weeks and then two weeks later, we, we were on a FaceTime call for like a minute and, yeah, after that, they got it done. Just like, and then, and then afterwards, they said like, oh, it's gonna be a title fight. And then the whole world went crazy, of course, like, oh my god, how is this guy gonna go for a world title fight? It doesn't make any sense. And I was just like, let's go, we're gonna shock the world.

• 22:04Speaker 00

  Well, you know, it's not like you hadn't had a lifetime of striking. It's only the difference is removing the kicks, that's all.

• 22:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, but the thing is, like, the boxing fans, the straight up boxing fans, they're not too much into MMA and they're definitely not into kickboxing. So they had no clue.

• 22:20Speaker 00

  Right.

• 22:21Speaker 01

  They had no clue of like,

• 22:22Speaker 00

  Right, right.

• 22:24Speaker 01

  Who, who is this guy? What did he do? And that's why also the WBC, they also had their Muay Thai department. So for them, it made sense. It's like, hey, Rico with his credentials and what he did into, into, in kickboxing, it makes sense to make it a world championship fight, but we just have to tell the people.

• 22:42Speaker 00

  Well, you know, it drives me nuts as a fan of combat sports, is also a giant fan of kickboxing. Kickboxing does not get the love that it deserves in America. It doesn't make any sense, because in MMA, the casual fans love stand-up. And when fights go to the ground, they boo. So, like, it, it makes no sense to me how you have boxing, huge.

• 23:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:09Speaker 00

  MMA, huge, kickboxing, almost nonexistent in America. There's no big kickboxing leagues.

• 23:14Speaker 01

  No, but maybe because they, they wanna see, yeah, their own people win, maybe?

• 23:20Speaker 00

  No, no, it just hasn't been promoted, right? It doesn't make any sense. It makes no sense, because their own people don't win in MMA. I mean, there's very few American champions. There's, uh, Justin Gagey and Sean Strickland and the,

• 23:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, but at least they're really competitive and in kickboxing, they're,

• 23:35Speaker 00

  Right, that's true, but we don't care, honestly, in the, in MMA, no. I mean, Alex Pereira was the biggest star in the sport.

• 23:43Speaker 01

  Also in kickboxing, yeah.

• 23:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly, but, uh, Brazilian, doesn't speak English at all, only speaks Portuguese and whatever other languages, tribal language. And so you, then you have Islam Makachev, who's fighting next weekend, huge star. You know, from Dagestan, that no one in America, all they care are, are you the baddest motherfucker on earth? That's all they care. And I really genuinely believe that if someone came along, like, I really wish Zuffa would do it. Because they're doing it with boxing, they should do it with kickboxing. Because kickboxing or Muay Thai, whichever they decide, you know, I think is the most exciting stand-up sport in the world. I don't think it's even close.

• 24:19Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 24:20Speaker 00

  I love Glory. I fucking watch it all the time, I watch all the events. It's so exciting, man, it's so fun. And the, the fights are so chaotic and if you're a fan of,

• 24:30Speaker 01

  It's brutal.

• 24:31Speaker 00

  Brutal and technical at the same time. I mean, some of the most amazing fights, I mean, that's how I knew about Pereira, was because I was such a huge fan of Glory.

• 24:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:39Speaker 00

  When I, when he came over to the UFC, I was like, everyone's fucked. I'm like, you don't understand, everyone's fucked, this guy's different, man.

• 24:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, he is.

• 24:47Speaker 00

  He's different.

• 24:47Speaker 01

  He's amazing.

• 24:48Speaker 00

  But it was because I knew him so much from kickboxing and he was so exciting in kickboxing. Like, kickboxing should be huge in America, it should be, it really should be.

• 24:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, hundred percent, hundred percent, and it's, it's a part of MMA, so I think a lot of guys,

• 25:02Speaker 00

  A giant part of MMA, the most exciting part of MMA is the kickboxing, for sure.

• 25:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, hundred percent, hundred percent.

• 25:09Speaker 00

  Makes no sense. It's a, it's a, it is a untapped market. There's somebody figured it out and dove in and made it, it would be gigantic.

• 25:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:18Speaker 00

  It would have to be like the UFC, though, because they, you have to have the kind of publicity machine, the kind of media machine that the UFC has.

• 25:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:25Speaker 00

  To build up the stories and show these guys and show like all the champions.

• 25:30Speaker 01

  Hundred percent, but I think that's, in every big fight and every big organization, is where the strength is, is the storytelling.

• 25:37Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 25:38Speaker 01

  That is where, I think, where, and also, if you ask me, like, when I was in Glory, where it lacked on, on experience, like, the storytelling.

• 25:48Speaker 00

  Right.

• 25:49Speaker 01

  Where does this guy come from? What is his background? And like, you wanna get to know the person instead of just like the guy that throws punches and kicks.

• 25:57Speaker 00

  Exactly, the UFC does an awesome job with that. They have a whole series called Embedded. So like next week, when the, uh, Ian Gary, Islam Makachev fight takes place, they're gonna have one on Monday, so you get up Monday morning, it'll be there on, on YouTube and everybody will watch it and then you're like, oh shit, you watch that one, then you watch the one on Tuesday. You see them training, you see them eating, you see them in the sauna cutting weight. You see them doing all their press stuff, you see them, you get hyped, man, you get hyped.

• 26:24Speaker 01

  But you get drawn into like, oh, this is the guy behind the fighter.

• 26:29Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 26:29Speaker 01

  And I think that's so much more interesting.

• 26:31Speaker 00

  And then they have the Countdown Show, which is an hour. And Countdown Show's like highly produced and all this different stuff. Interviews and conversations with their family. It's fucking amazing and it just gets you so jazzed up for the fight. If the UFC did something like that with kickboxing, I think it would be gigantic. You know, they tried Glory in America for a while and it was doing pretty good on Spike TV, remember?

• 26:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 26:52Speaker 00

  Like, they had the Last Man Standing Tournament in Los Angeles. I went to that, it was awesome. It's just, it just never fucking caught on.

• 26:59Speaker 01

  No, it was, it was hard, it was, it's too bad. And then after the last few years, we were just in Europe, more in the Netherlands, that's where we, yeah, in Glory.

• 27:09Speaker 00

  One is doing a good job with kickboxing. One FC in,

• 27:12Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 27:13Speaker 00

  You don't know of them?

• 27:14Speaker 01

  No, yeah, I know about them, but I don't know if they're, No, I don't know if they're doing, I don't know if they're doing good or not.

• 27:19Speaker 00

  Especially in the lighter weight divisions, because they're getting a lot of guys from Thailand and a lot of guys from Japan.

• 27:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, but they're more Asian-based, right? They're not,

• 27:27Speaker 00

  Yes, yes, more Asian-based, but they have a lot of stand-up fights now. A lot of like either, they have Muay Thai with MMA gloves on, yeah, in a cage, brutal. And then they're also having, uh, kickboxing in a cage. And, and kickboxing in a ring, they mix it up between rings and cages. Yeah, I mean, I personally think the ring is better, I really do, because I think that there's a lot of weird stuff with the cage. You know, like the cage, uh, especially with MMA, I don't like it, because it, you could, you could use it to get back up.

• 27:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:00Speaker 00

  You could like get your back against it and pull yourself back up. You could also use it to take people down. It's harder to take people down with the ring, I believe.

• 28:08Speaker 01

  Hundred percent, hundred percent. Yeah, so, but that's why it's, it's good for me now, like, I, yeah.

• 28:14Speaker 00

  Well, I know there was a talk, there was a talk about you fighting Derrick Lewis.

• 28:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:18Speaker 00

  I remember that and then you got this, the offer to box and there was so much money added.

• 28:22Speaker 01

  The Joshua fight first.

• 28:24Speaker 00

  Oh, that's right, the Joshua fight first.

• 28:25Speaker 01

  That's where it started, so, yeah, so we were in talks, uh, because I was a free agent, I vacated the belt.

• 28:32Speaker 00

  How many MMA fights you have, you, at least one, one?

• 28:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, just one. I did some grappling years ago, but I just have one, one professional MMA fight. So, so after that vacating my, my belt, I was a free agent, so we were like, okay, let's, yeah, dip our toes in different water, let's see, yeah, let's see what's, what's on the landscape now.

• 28:53Speaker 00

  Why did you decide to vacate the belt? Because you had done everything you needed to do?

• 28:56Speaker 01

  I did it all.

• 28:57Speaker 00

  You cleaned out the division.

• 28:58Speaker 01

  I did it all, so I was like, I wanted, I wanted it to, to make sense. And first, we, we, we talked within the organization of like, hey, I'm looking to do big stuff, different stuff, so like crossover events, because that was getting more and more talked about, like the big crossover events, and I think, yeah, in my opinion, I am one of the baddest men on the planet, so it, it made sense to do it. But then, yeah, within the organization management, wrong management, like, we just, yeah, didn't get, it, we just didn't get to a place where it worked out. So I was like, okay, let me just leave it then.

• 29:38Speaker 01

  So I left it and then we talked with UFC to see, yeah, what was going on there. But then, yeah, I got the other offer and it made more sense.

• 29:49Speaker 00

  Now, was the other offer a one contract fight, a one fight contract? So you're free again?

• 29:53Speaker 01

  I'm a free agent again, yeah.

• 29:54Speaker 00

  Oh, wow.

• 29:55Speaker 01

  So, and that's why now,

• 29:57Speaker 00

  Was there any conversation at all about a rematch?

• 30:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, right away. His Excellency came into the ring and he said, you're gonna fight this guy again. That's the first thing he said. But Khabib Yaw also came into the ring. Uh, Ajit Khabib Yaw, the, the WBC interim champion and now the, the champion, because, uh, Usik vacated the belt as well. So, um, he also wanted his shot, so there was like a lot of talk and, like, at that moment, I was there, but it was just like, I don't know, it was,

• 30:31Speaker 00

  Chaos.

• 30:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, chaos, and for me, I was just like, wow, did this,

• 30:34Speaker 00

  They just fucked you?

• 30:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, did this really just happen? And it took, it took me like at least six weeks before I watched the fight back for the very first time after the fight.

• 30:45Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 30:46Speaker 01

  Because it, it, it, it, it still hurts, so, um, so yeah, so now I'm, I'm like a free agent and I, we got, we got so many, we got so many offers, no.

• 30:57Speaker 00

  What is it like watching it and watching the fight get stopped after the bell?

• 31:01Speaker 01

  It still hurts. It still hurts, I'm like, wow, what, what did you, what did you want, want me to do? Did you want me to move around? Did you want me to, to punch back or whatever? For me, like, you know, I've been in, in trouble multiple times within my world title kickboxing fights. I was behind multiple times and I still came on, came out on top, so.

• 31:27Speaker 01

  There was, for me, there's no conversation in like, okay, could he continue? Is he gonna continue? I never stop.

• 31:35Speaker 00

  They don't know you.

• 31:36Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 31:37Speaker 00

  The other thing is the conditioning thing. Like, your conditioning is so good, you bounce back so quick. And there's been so many times where guys try to empty the tank to put you out.

• 31:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:46Speaker 00

  And you're not going nowhere.

• 31:47Speaker 01

  No, and it was just a few seconds, and a referee should know that. So, next to that, like, with all the experience you know that I have within the combat sports, like, it's just a few seconds, let it go, and let me at least give me the opportunity and give the fans the opportunity to see that 12th round.

• 32:06Speaker 00

  Right.

• 32:07Speaker 01

  So.

• 32:07Speaker 00

  Oh, it'd have been so exciting.

• 32:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, my God. But, also, looking now, looking back at it, because there was also open scoring. And I love open scoring, because within that gives you the right position and gives the fighters the position. Like, okay, where are, where are we standing within this fight? But now, looking back at the fight after eight rounds, because after every four rounds, we hear what the scoring is. After eight rounds, uh, my trainer, Peter Fury, says, "Okay, we gotta really start winning these rounds now." I was like, what? I'm out. I was like, am I hearing this right? I feel like I'm already winning these rounds.

• 32:50Speaker 01

  He said, "No, we're equal. We're equal on the scorecards after eight rounds." So, I was like, okay, so in the ninth round, I started.

• 32:58Speaker 00

  Even the commentators were like, "What?"

• 33:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. But then I really started pushing even more, but I was pushing already. But if you know you're like eight or seven rounds ahead, and you feel like you're getting tired the last two or three rounds, just move around.

• 33:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:15Speaker 01

  Tip, tap, and maybe you lose it, maybe it's a draw, whatever, and then still you win, uh, because you were like five rounds ahead. Then it doesn't make any sense. But now, we had to keep pushing. And then, oh, it's like walking straight into that uppercut, like, oh, it still, it still gets me. Oh, I'm gonna look back at it, it's like, oh, and then that last part, that's what I find so hard, and I, I feel like I need to work on that as a, as a human being, for myself, as a person. I can only look at that, at that one mistake I felt I made at the end. Because I gave them the opportunity to pull this card. That's what, that's, that's how it feels for me.

• 34:01Speaker 00

  Mistake being that you pushed too hard, or?

• 34:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. The mistake, like, there was one mistake that I made running into that uppercut, like, walking straight in, swinging, and we said in the, in the, in the whole prep, I tried that a few times, like, "Oh, that's dangerous. Don't do that with Usik." And still, for whatever reason, I did that at that exact moment. And that, that's what, what frustrates me if I look back at it. Um, because I'm, I'm only, I'm not looking at what he did well, because that uppercut was amazing. Um, I'm just looking at what I, what I'm responsible for, and I'm responsible for myself. And I gave them now this opportunity by making that mistake, and that's like, oh, so hard to

• 34:45Speaker 01

  get over that for myself. But I need to work on that, because I had the same with the Jamal Ben Siddique fight with the eye. I, I, everybody's like, "Oh, Rico, you showed them, you're never giving up." But I know I got that. I know I got that from the inside, but I never have to show that, because the skill set is so, so big that I don't get in, I don't get in trouble. So I don't have to show that I can continue and never giving up. But I can only look at that, oh, that one mistake, why did I do that? Then I get the eye, like, you're so stupid. So I can only look at that. Yeah, it's.

• 35:21Speaker 00

  And that guy fucking punches hard.

• 35:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:24Speaker 00

  And he's a big fella.

• 35:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's bigger than I am.

• 35:26Speaker 00

  Jamal Ben Siddique is huge. Powerful, powerful guy.

• 35:30Speaker 01

  That's, uh, that, that's hard for me, but I gotta work on that for myself, like.

• 35:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, but that's also why you're great.

• 35:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:38Speaker 00

  I mean, you have to, you have to hate mistakes, hate them, like, like they're poison.

• 35:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, they are.

• 35:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, they are. But you got, yeah, yeah, you should have seen me after the fight, like, I was, I was like a big baby. I was crying in my, my hotel room, like a big, big baby. I was like, oh, my God, I was so close of, like, shocking the world, and now this happened. It was like, oh, it hurts so bad.

• 36:03Speaker 00

  It still hurts to a certain extent, but. At least you could laugh at it a little bit now.

• 36:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:07Speaker 00

  I can only imagine. To me, watching it as a fan of yours, I was like, oh, my God, he's gonna fuck it, pull it off.

• 36:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:14Speaker 00

  I, I was on the edge of my seat, and when we're going into the ninth and 10th rounds, I was like, I don't see how Usik can win.

• 36:20Speaker 01

  No.

• 36:20Speaker 00

  And then when they started talking about the scorecards, I was like, what the fuck are they watching? This is crazy.

• 36:25Speaker 01

  They're looking at a different fight. But that's, so, but for me.

• 36:28Speaker 00

  Either corrupt or incompetent.

• 36:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, but for me, if I, if I, if I look at it now, and, and for us talking about it, and for you being so long into combat sports, being a commentator, and doing it yourself, wouldn't it be something, wouldn't you be maybe a spokesman or a part, could you be a part of a way how we can make this whole judging thing and this whole transparency better?

• 36:54Speaker 00

  Well, I think one way to do it is to have, uh, more judges, like Glory does. I think five is probably the right number. And I think another thing to do is maybe have a bunch of people online that are recognized experts, like, top trainers, top commentators, people, people that really understand the sport.

• 37:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:16Speaker 00

  And maybe they get an app. Maybe there's like a special app that those guys can judge on.

• 37:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:22Speaker 00

  So you have a collective expert opinion.

• 37:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:25Speaker 00

  And you get to look at that as well.

• 37:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that's what we had now. Like, if you look, the, the professionals, the trainers, the, the commentators, they all saw the fight a certain way, but the judges saw something totally, they were looking at a different fight for some kind of reason.

• 37:40Speaker 00

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• 39:05Speaker 00

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• 39:12Speaker 01

  And that's, that's crazy.

• 39:14Speaker 00

  A problem like we talked about, it's either incompetence or it's corruption, and I think it might be a little bit of both.

• 39:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:20Speaker 00

  And I think maybe the corruption isn't even conscious, but it's like they know who the promoter wants to win. They want Usik to win, because Usik is where you can get the next Tyson Fury fight or the Anthony Joshua, well, not Anthony Joshua, but whoever he would decide to fight.

• 39:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:34Speaker 00

  You know, again.

• 39:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:36Speaker 00

  And now it's gonna be Deontay Wilder, which nobody's calling for.

• 39:39Speaker 01

  I don't know if it's gonna happen, but yeah.

• 39:40Speaker 00

  Where is that signed? Can you please find out if the Anthony Joshua, or excuse me, the, uh, Deontay Wilder, Alexander Usik fight is signed? Because people were talking about that being, I think they were saying like December or something.

• 39:58Speaker 01

  They were trying for it. At least I know that's what I, that's what they were trying for. But for me, like, that's why for now, it's.

• 40:03Speaker 00

  Not officially signed yet. Okay. A plea to His Excellency, Turkey Al Sheik, this is the fight. But here's the question, does Usik want that fight? That's the question.

• 40:16Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 40:17Speaker 00

  A really tough fight like that fight, and then, you know, they ask you to do it again, and it's your last time out. He's calling, I mean, this is, he's calling, this is his last fight.

• 40:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:28Speaker 00

  If this is the last fight, and he almost lost to you, and he has the potential of losing again, they'd have to entice him, they'd have to fuck him.

• 40:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:37Speaker 00

  Pull out that paper, pull out that paper.

• 40:40Speaker 01

  Then he's like.

• 40:41Speaker 00

  Drink, big bag of gold.

• 40:43Speaker 01

  Okay, if I lose, that's what it is.

• 40:45Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 40:46Speaker 01

  Now, but that's why it's so good for me now to be in this position. I'm a free agent. We got offers from the biggest organizations across the world, like, after this fight, and I'm just like taking, taking my time.

• 41:00Speaker 00

  What offers have they given you that's exciting? Can you talk about them?

• 41:03Speaker 01

  Uh, not really.

• 41:04Speaker 00

  No? All right, afterwards. Tell me afterwards.

• 41:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:07Speaker 00

  Because I know a lot of people talked about you possibly boxing Francis Nganou, or having an MMA fight with Francis Nganou.

• 41:14Speaker 01

  So.

• 41:15Speaker 00

  Was that on the table?

• 41:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, so, to be honest, like, two weeks before the Usik fight, uh, there was the, the MVP card, right? But then, they approached me like weeks before, uh, MVP to.

• 41:32Speaker 01

  MMA versus Francis. And then I was also like right on the edge of like closing the deal with Usik. And so I had the two options on the table. And yeah, to be honest, like the, the other, the, the, the MMA deal, like they kept on like stacking up, stacking up like Rico, like ah, okay. What if, what if we give you the, hmm. Okay, but what if you give me the, okay, let me look at this option again. So, but then, yeah, I just looked myself in the mirror like, I respect His Excellency and Jason gave his word. And His Excellency gave his word that they were gonna do it. And if I look at myself, I'm looking at a legacy.

• 42:15Speaker 01

  And that Francis Nagano fight is still gonna be there after the Usik fight. But how crazy is that as a kick boxer coming in, fighting for a world championship within boxing and potentially winning? Because that's how I, I only have one, one plan and that's winning. So that's how I went into that fight. And you know, we saw how that went and that was.

• 42:37Speaker 00

  Didn't you wish you could kick him?

• 42:39Speaker 01

  No, not really.

• 42:40Speaker 00

  Not at all?

• 42:41Speaker 01

  No.

• 42:41Speaker 00

  Didn't you wish you could just a few low kicks?

• 42:45Speaker 01

  Because that he's definitely not gonna make, make it to the end. No, but that was so funny because everybody's like, Rico, you've been kickboxing for so long. Like what happens if you head kick him like, just like, don't you have that feeling like? Like, guys, like I've been boxing next to doing kickboxing like for 15 years or something. I've been working with Peter Fury for so long and I'm used to this. But I know for, I think that's what made me such a good kick boxer as well, that I was into boxing.

• 43:14Speaker 00

  But there's a giant difference between working with a kick boxer and even being a kick boxer and fighting arguably the greatest heavyweight of all time.

• 43:21Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 43:22Speaker 00

  Crazy.

• 43:23Speaker 01

  But the crazy thing was, I think, I think it was around five or six. I was like, he was jabbing me, I was just ticking it away and I was like bump, bump, bump. I'm like talking to myself in the fight, I'm like, am I out jabbing the champ? This is crazy. And then my trainer, how your trainer, my trainer Dennis, Rico, just keep doing what you're doing. You're winning this fight. Let's go, let's go, let's go. Because, because he also don't, didn't want me to take too many risks. He's like, okay, you won this round and then continue from there. Because that's how they were experiencing it, the fight and the rounds on the side.

• 44:03Speaker 00

  Well, let me ask you this. When you first started formulating a game plan, did you watch a bunch? I'm, I'm sure you're already a fan of Usik's. You watch his fights. But did you re-watch them and try to find patterns? How did you formulate this game plan?

• 44:16Speaker 01

  Oh, of course, uh, with, uh, yeah, my trainer, Peter Fury, uh, with the, he's, yeah. He's crazy. He's the very, very, very bet, best at what he does. And we were just like analyzing these fights like, so first he already had the thing in his, in his mind. And he asked me like, what do you see all these boxers do? And what they shouldn't be doing and what do you think they should do? So I look at it, I look at it, I look at it. And I think it basically started with if somebody is a south pole, why would you stay right in front of them? That's one thing.

• 45:01Speaker 01

  And because you cannot go, if somebody's orthodox, you move to the right. But you cannot move to the right with a south pole because you're walking straight into a left hand. So why is nobody moving to the left? Because then as soon as you move to the left, you're walking away from.

• 45:20Speaker 00

  Right.

• 45:20Speaker 01

  That, that, that strong arm. I think, and that's what we said, exactly.

• 45:25Speaker 00

  Which is crazy. It's just so many people are so stuck in their patterns. The way they like to move. They like to move to their right.

• 45:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:33Speaker 00

  That's what they like. They feel good. They wanna move to their right and throw a right hand. But you're just running into that power hand. It's just crazy that, it's not just that too. It's also the size difference. Like that was one thing. It's like you were so big in that, that ring. You were smothering him and you on top of him and you were throwing those shots in tight.

• 45:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, but the, the combination of those two, getting him out of that position, took away so many, so many of his tools. And then like you said, smothering and getting into him and using my size. Because if you ask me, like all the guys he fought are way, they're, they're my size. They're way bigger than him.

• 46:12Speaker 00

  Right.

• 46:12Speaker 01

  But because of the way they fought, they couldn't use their size on him. But the way I did it, I could.

• 46:21Speaker 00

  Tyson Fury did a lot. He, he used his size a lot, you know, and he's a different kind of big though. He's big and long where you're fucking thick. You know, it's a, it's a different thing. You're very lean and, and huge. It's a different, it's like the, the mass of you when you were on top of him, pushing him. You could see that it was a factor. It's like he was recognizing it.

• 46:42Speaker 01

  But it's so hard. Like if you look at that fight that you just mentioned is how are you gonna get? He, he tried to use his size, but how are you gonna get close to him, walking straight into it? Because he's, then he's just gonna keep moving.

• 46:55Speaker 00

  Right.

• 46:55Speaker 01

  Keep moving because he's so fast on his feet. But that's what we tried to do. We tried to be fast up on our feet and move to the side and then get into it and then get close. Because then as soon as you, uh, he's a south pole, you keep moving this way and just keep getting closer. Somewhere you're gonna, you're gonna be there. You're gonna reach him.

• 47:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:17Speaker 01

  But it takes, it takes some time. And I didn't think, if you look at the heavyweights, what they all wanna do is they wanna bam. They wanna hit maybe boom, boom, one, two. Versus the very, arguably one of the best to have ever done it. And then especially in a cruiserweight, how are you gonna hit him in step A?

• 47:37Speaker 00

  Right.

• 47:37Speaker 01

  It's gonna be at least step B, C, or D when you're gonna hit him. You gotta have multiple plans. Like for me, I was just throwing, throw, throw, throw, throw. And I know I wasn't gonna, I was, the, the first time I was gonna hit him was maybe in punch six or whatever. Because then the distance is gonna be closer. So I didn't even think about trying to knock his head off. That's what I said. Said, that's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna try and knock his head off. Of course I'm gonna tell him that. Because that, this is definitely not all we're gonna do. I was just gonna get close.

• 48:11Speaker 00

  Right.

• 48:11Speaker 01

  And keep, keep working. Keep working volume. And then finally, when you're there, that's the moment you're gonna put in some power. But that's like maybe punch seven or eight. But the first three, four, you're not even gonna hit this. It's gonna, you're just, you're just hitting air because he's too fast.

• 48:29Speaker 00

  Right. He's like a giant Lomachenko.

• 48:32Speaker 01

  Exactly. But that's how we thought about it. Don't try and hit him in the first two or three punches. Throw them so he has something to look at and something to think about. And then we're gonna get there. And as soon as you get there, you smother him, boom, punch him in the body.

• 48:48Speaker 00

  What heavyweight boxers have you worked with over the years?

• 48:52Speaker 01

  All the, the, the, the top fighters. Of course, that's how I got with Peter Fury. I started with Tyson Fury. Um, I, I trained with, uh, with Arjit Kobayal because he was also in that, uh, um, uh, in that camp back then. Hmm, Yui Fury, uh, Peter's son. He's, I think he's, he's also, he's been going up and down because of his health. But he's definitely one of the best and he, we're gonna see more of him. Because yeah, he's such a good competitor, such a good boxer as well. Uh, great skill set. So there's been a bunch of fighters that I, that, that we've worked with.

• 49:34Speaker 00

  That's so massive. Cause you, you know, sharing all that gym time with elite guys like Tyson Fury.

• 49:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:40Speaker 00

  You know, and Kobayal, though, having that kind of experience in the gym must have also been a huge confidence boost too.

• 49:47Speaker 01

  Hundred percent, especially now and this, this, this whole last thing is trying to get like some good south pole fighters. Oh my God, that's the hardest thing, the hardest thing. And then we had one big guy and we had one, uh, one smaller guy. It was, uh, it was so hard. And then mixing that up. So we started off with first, the first six with, uh, with the big guy, uh, Moses Jolly. And an amazing boxer, but he's big, he's big, he's heavy. He's not an Usik. He's like twice as big as Usik, but he's a south pole. So he has that power and we could really compete. And then after that, uh, we, we, we jumped in with, uh, with James Branch.

• 50:30Speaker 01

  And he's like 90, 90 kilo, south pole. So he's like, throw a rapid fire punch like, oh fuck. So and that, and that change within sparring, so the first six with one and then six with the other. Oh my God, that was, it was next level. It was like six months of pure hard work.

• 50:54Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 50:55Speaker 01

  But it was so cool. It was so cool. And it, yeah, it just opened up my mind to a whole different, to a whole different world. And it's for being in, in combat sports since I was six. And after all these years saying like, okay, this kickboxing chapter within the book is, I think that's, that's done. Let's start a new chapter.

• 51:21Speaker 00

  Well, there's no big kickboxing fight that can compare with what you just did.

• 51:24Speaker 01

  No, exactly.

• 51:25Speaker 00

  I mean, how old are you now? Thirty-eight?

• 51:26Speaker 01

  Thirty-seven.

• 51:27Speaker 00

  Thirty-seven. So at that age, like you've gotta, you gotta like look at what you've already accomplished.

• 51:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:34Speaker 00

  In kickboxing, there's no fight that everyone's calling out for like, oh, you had, you know, it's not like Badar Haris at the, in the prime or, it's not like one big fight.

• 51:44Speaker 01

  No, no. So there was like, hey, and especially with the whole crossover fights, being at the biggest attention right now is like, hey, I think that's, this is something we gotta look at.

• 51:56Speaker 00

  So after the fight is done.

• 51:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:58Speaker 00

  Turkey Alashik comes into the ring, says you guys are gonna fight again. And it's been a couple of months now. So what has happened? What, what, do you talk to anybody? Has your management talked to you?

• 52:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, they, they talked to, because it's been crazy. Like all the, the biggest organizations reached out, hey, we're looking at this fight. We're looking at that fight.

• 52:19Speaker 00

  Right. But what about?

• 52:20Speaker 01

  What, what, what makes, what makes sense for us? And that's where I'm looking at now because like I said, I mean, I believe I'm in the winter of, of my career. So I'm, I'm just looking at big fights.

• 52:34Speaker 00

  Do you have a timeline when you wanna get out?

• 52:37Speaker 01

  No, not, it's not.

• 52:41Speaker 01

  Set in stone, but let's let's let's see, let's see. But like I said, I feel like I'm I'm so excited, I'm so I'm so happy and I'm so grateful to be in this position right now, so let's yeah, make history.

• 52:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean.

• 52:57Speaker 01

  It's all about legacy, right?

• 52:58Speaker 00

  They fucked you over, but you did win. You got a big win out of it in that you performed way better than anybody expected. And and then there's also this element where people are rooting for you because they do they'll think you got fucked over.

• 53:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, hundred percent.

• 53:10Speaker 00

  They think you were getting fucked over in the scoring and they got you got fucked over with the stoppage.

• 53:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:15Speaker 00

  And so it's very marketable. And so what my question, though, what I'm asking is, has anybody talked about the rematch other than that one time?

• 53:23Speaker 01

  I knew this was gonna come.

• 53:27Speaker 00

  I mean, that's the fight.

• 53:28Speaker 01

  What I wanna know is.

• 53:29Speaker 00

  That's the fight.

• 53:30Speaker 01

  Oh, he's talking about the rematch.

• 53:31Speaker 00

  That is the fight. That is. It's one of the biggest fights in heavyweight boxing right now.

• 53:35Speaker 01

  I know, a hundred percent.

• 53:37Speaker 00

  If not, though, it's gotta be, other than Tyson Fury versus Anthony Joshua is gonna be big for England.

• 53:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:43Speaker 00

  Right? And for them, that's an all time fight.

• 53:45Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 53:46Speaker 00

  Two of the all time greats in England. Two of the greatest British heavyweight champions ever.

• 53:50Speaker 01

  A little bit late, but.

• 53:51Speaker 00

  It's a little late, especially after Anthony Joshua's last fight. That was a scary one. I was like, whoa.

• 53:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, but both of them.

• 53:58Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 53:58Speaker 01

  Both of the fights, they they they did.

• 54:01Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 54:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:02Speaker 00

  It's not, they're not the same guys.

• 54:03Speaker 01

  No, but.

• 54:04Speaker 00

  But still.

• 54:05Speaker 01

  It's still super excited, exactly. They're legends and it's a huge fight to that finally got made.

• 54:12Speaker 00

  Other than that, the fight is a rematch.

• 54:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:15Speaker 00

  You and Usik is the fight. That is the fight in the heavyweight division right now. There's no one else out there that's like, you know, there's Moses Itama, who people don't really know about enough yet.

• 54:26Speaker 01

  Not yet, yeah.

• 54:26Speaker 00

  Who I think is the future.

• 54:28Speaker 01

  A hundred percent.

• 54:28Speaker 00

  Woo, that guy's good.

• 54:30Speaker 01

  Woo, dynamite.

• 54:31Speaker 00

  Dynamite.

• 54:32Speaker 01

  Dynamite.

• 54:33Speaker 00

  He's so fast. It's so good.

• 54:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:35Speaker 00

  And he's so slick in how he moves in and out.

• 54:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:38Speaker 00

  Oof.

• 54:38Speaker 01

  No, that's a that's the the next generation. Yeah, he's the future.

• 54:42Speaker 00

  I mean, he's like our generation's Mike Tyson.

• 54:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:45Speaker 00

  Where you watch him, he's 21 years old, he's coming up, and you're like, holy shit.

• 54:49Speaker 01

  He's like.

• 54:50Speaker 00

  But other than, I mean, but he's doesn't have enough experience yet and doesn't have enough name yet for what he really is and what his potential is. If one day will happen, but for you and for Usik, that and for heavyweight boxing, that's the fight.

• 55:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, a hundred percent, a hundred percent.

• 55:05Speaker 00

  I wish I was a promoter.

• 55:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:08Speaker 00

  Maybe we'll get Dana White to get Zuffa involved.

• 55:11Speaker 01

  Oh, that would be crazy.

• 55:12Speaker 00

  I don't know. What is, does, does, uh, is there some sort of a deal that, uh, Usik has with anybody?

• 55:18Speaker 01

  I don't think so, because I I believe that is one of the reasons as well why he vacated those belts.

• 55:26Speaker 00

  Right. He doesn't wanna deal with anybody else.

• 55:28Speaker 01

  No, because you, when you have those belts, you get forced into fights.

• 55:32Speaker 00

  Right.

• 55:33Speaker 01

  Like, okay, you're mandatory to fight this guy. And that was the, I think for him, the position that he was in, fighting me, he could like, that was a voluntary defense. And he decided like, hey, I would love to do this on my terms.

• 55:50Speaker 00

  Right.

• 55:51Speaker 01

  Versus another guy. And I think they looked at it like, hmm, this may be gonna be an easier fight, so this is nice to do. That didn't go the way his plan, but, uh, but still, I think that's where where his mind is at now. Like he like, he's like, I just wanna do what I wanna do, which makes so much sense after what what he has accomplished as a.

• 56:13Speaker 00

  After what he's accomplished, he should be able to call his own shots. And I want him to make the most money possible because he is a legend.

• 56:19Speaker 01

  But that's this, that's like you said, this is the fight.

• 56:23Speaker 00

  But the problem is, it might be too hard.

• 56:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:25Speaker 00

  It might be too hard. It might be one of those ones where, which is why maybe, you know, no disrespect to Deontay, but he might be looking at Deontay thinking, Deontay's a little softer.

• 56:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, and we're gonna ride into the sunset.

• 56:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, go out with a big spectacular knockout.

• 56:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it's also then, like you said, it's not gonna be the the big money grab that because I I.

• 56:45Speaker 00

  I don't think a lot of people are gonna pay for that fight.

• 56:47Speaker 01

  No, exactly. They're not gonna be paid that that crazy money for it.

• 56:50Speaker 00

  It's not a big pay per view fight, that's the thing. It's like, people will watch it just because he's an all time great. And anytime Usik fights, people are gonna watch. And Deontay still, he's still the greatest one punch knockout artist in the history of sport.

• 57:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, because you never know what's gonna happen when he fights.

• 57:07Speaker 00

  The last thing you lose is the power. His power is fucking crazy.

• 57:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's geek, he'll finish you in the in the 10th.

• 57:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, with one shot, plow.

• 57:15Speaker 01

  Coming out of nowhere.

• 57:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, he hit Ortiz on the top of the head and put him out. I was like, that is nuts, man.

• 57:21Speaker 01

  He has a different level of power.

• 57:23Speaker 00

  Different level of power, but again, 40 years old, it's twilight of his career. And this hasn't looked good in the last, you know, last few years. But for Usik to want that fight signals to me that he just, you know, let's just go out with one more payday and that's it. And I don't know if that was his choice, that fight, maybe that's just the internet talking.

• 57:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:45Speaker 00

  Maybe that's Deontay Wilder's team wants that fight.

• 57:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know. I don't know either, but like I said, I got I got all the options. They gave me all the options, like, hey, you wanna fight this guy, you wanna fight that guy.

• 57:55Speaker 00

  So have they talked to you about MMA as well?

• 57:58Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah.

• 57:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 57:59Speaker 01

  But, yeah, I'm I'm keeping the options open, but.

• 58:03Speaker 00

  But you're leaning towards boxing.

• 58:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, because I've been in in the boxing game now and I've enjoyed it so much. And that's like for me, like I just said, like I came from kickboxing from being six years old and doing it for over 30 years. And then now getting really into boxing, I was always boxing, but I was boxing to kickbox. It's a totally different game. I had to rewire everything that that was in there. So now that I did it and I performed the way that I performed, I was like, yeah, this was fun.

• 58:38Speaker 00

  This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. You've probably heard about BetterHelp before, but maybe you haven't heard from those who have actually used BetterHelp. That feedback can tell you everything you need to know. Go to betterhelp.com/reviews and check out the feedback from hundreds of people saying how much they love this service. It's easy to see why. To get started, all you have to do is answer a few questions. You'll get matched up with a therapist based on your needs. And if it's not the right fit, you can switch therapists at any time. See the reviews, see what stands out, and see if BetterHelp is right for you. Visit betterhelp.com/jre.

• 59:20Speaker 00

  That's better H E L P dot com slash J R E.

• 59:25Speaker 01

  I really enjoyed that.

• 59:26Speaker 00

  Also, that is the glory division, no pun intended, of the heavyweight division, is the heavyweight division, or of of boxing, rather, is the heavyweight division. The heavyweight division is where the real money is at, always.

• 59:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:38Speaker 00

  That is the baddest man in boxing. It's always been that way. And for you, after that performance, I gotta think there's a lot of options for you.

• 59:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, like I said, we, they threw us so many stuff at us, but we're like, hey, we take our time, look at the different options. And of course, still, uh, His Excellency has our first preference because they gave us the opportunity.

• 1:00:03Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:00:03Speaker 01

  When, yeah, we had, we had.

• 1:00:05Speaker 00

  What was it like to fight in front of the pyramids? That's crazy, too.

• 1:00:09Speaker 01

  It was insane.

• 1:00:10Speaker 00

  Outside.

• 1:00:11Speaker 01

  It was insane, Joe. It's like, let me tell you another story. Um, so that happened, uh, also while I was in this camp. Uh, it's not a nice, a nice thing to say, but my mother passed away during, uh, the moment I was in camp for this fight. And, well, that happened, it was it was hard, and then we had to clean out her house. And then finally doing that and cleaning everything, and then we come by a bunch of pictures. And, yeah, you can see it on my Instagram. And then I see the pictures of my mother 30 years prior, being in front of the pyramids.

• 1:00:53Speaker 01

  It's like, wow, why do I see these pictures now, knowing that this fight is in front of the pyramids? It was mind blowing. And so for me, it was like full circle. Going back, I I like literally made the same pictures my mother made 30 years prior, before the fight, in front of the swings, in front of the pyramids. And that was like a goosebumps. So for me, having that whole experience, being in front of the pyramids, doing that was like full circle.

• 1:01:26Speaker 00

  When did they come up with that idea to have you guys fight in front of the pyramids?

• 1:01:31Speaker 01

  Well, the way they.

• 1:01:34Speaker 00

  Look at that.

• 1:01:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:35Speaker 00

  That's crazy. That really is crazy. Wow.

• 1:01:46Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 1:01:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:52Speaker 00

  That really is wild.

• 1:01:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:58Speaker 01

  Still, uh.

• 1:02:01Speaker 01

  I don't know. Still like.

• 1:02:03Speaker 00

  Of course, of course, yeah.

• 1:02:06Speaker 01

  So I was such a.

• 1:02:07Speaker 00

  So when did they come up with the idea of having a heavyweight title fight in front of the pyramids?

• 1:02:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, so. The communication is always like, really like straightforward. And it, they don't say too much. So the way it began, like the first thing I got was just like a WhatsApp picture. We're thinking about this location.

• 1:02:35Speaker 01

  That was, that was the thing. Because first I saw the picture, I opened it, like, oh, it's the pyramids. Nice. And then after that, I looked at it, we're looking, we're thinking about this location, like. Okay, but how are you gonna do that? Like, to me, it didn't make too much sense. And then afterwards, it said like, they sent me a video, like, yeah, we're gonna do it here, it's gonna be outside. And it's like, oh my God, it's gonna be outside in front of the pyramids. It's like. Mind blowing. And that was, that was also a thing. That's what I said, like, it, it was like the rumble in the jungle.

• 1:03:11Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:03:12Speaker 01

  But then with that being said, what people thought, like, what, what is this guy talking about? Is he putting himself in the same category as, as Ali and Foreman or whatever? What, what is he? No, that's not what I'm saying. I mean about the location. I'm never for myself in that. Everybody that knows me, like, I'm, I'm super humble, so I never would, would say something like that. But that's what I meant, like, it was something like the rumble in the jungle, because we're talking about the location.

• 1:03:43Speaker 00

  Right. The location was a part of the experience.

• 1:03:46Speaker 01

  Exactly. It was, it was insane, Joe, like, like, and then for me, they asked me, like, Rico, can we ask you to do like a certain choreography? Okay, I don't wanna do too much, I wanna focus on fighting Usik. So, okay, only thing you gotta do is like punch the ground, and then the ground is gonna crack open. And then we're gonna like, for the first time that evening, boom, we're gonna turn on the pyramids. So that's cool, that sounds good, I'll do that. So I did that, buddy. So I punched the ground, I turned around, and for the first time, we see like the ground cracking open and then then the, the lights shine onto the pyramids. Wow.

• 1:04:25Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 1:04:25Speaker 01

  It was, it was a goosebump moment.

• 1:04:27Speaker 00

  Was that your first time being at the pyramids?

• 1:04:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, so that's why this whole picture and this whole thing was for me, was like a full circle, like, wow. It was such a special moment, such a special event. And then, okay, then I turn around, then my whole theme song comes up, you know, you know how I run to the, to the ring?

• 1:04:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04:46Speaker 01

  But that wasn't like a real catwalk. And during the day, I already went to see like what they expected from me and like how I'm gonna, and there was like so, some small steps, like down, like five or six. But then I hear my song, boom, I do my thing and I do, ah, and I run to the ring. But I was like walking straight onto these steps. I'm like, am I gonna take these steps fast? I'm like, no, fuck them, I'll just jump down. I just decided that at the moment. And then I, I landed, it was like, ooh, this was higher than I expected. And I just kept on running, it's like, just think about like, maybe I just like sprained my ankle or something, like jumping from the crazy.

• 1:05:30Speaker 00

  Here it is, yeah.

• 1:05:33Speaker 01

  Oh my God. It was so funny, because after, afterwards, the cameraman, he woke up to me, he's like, I almost missed you. You, you, you were jumping down, it's like, I was looking at you, looking at you, like, whoa, you were gone.

• 1:05:45Speaker 00

  That was wild.

• 1:05:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, it was wild. It was outside and it was, the temperature was, was actually was, was pretty good.

• 1:05:53Speaker 00

  What was the temperature?

• 1:05:54Speaker 01

  I think it was like twenty, twenty degrees.

• 1:05:56Speaker 00

  So that's Celsius? What is that? It's like seventy something?

• 1:06:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, sure.

• 1:06:03Speaker 03

  It's real squirrely in that, in that real mid part.

• 1:06:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:06Speaker 00

  What's that, Jamie?

• 1:06:06Speaker 03

  I mean, a hundred, you know, is boiling and two hundred and twelve is boiling for Fahrenheit, but like zero and thirty, I don't know, yeah.

• 1:06:12Speaker 00

  Well, just put it in the.

• 1:06:14Speaker 03

  I will.

• 1:06:14Speaker 00

  Here, I'll do it right here.

• 1:06:15Speaker 03

  I have this on the screen, I can't.

• 1:06:18Speaker 00

  What is twenty degrees Celsius and Fahrenheit?

• 1:06:22Speaker 00

  Sixty-eight, oh, perfect.

• 1:06:24Speaker 01

  So that was, that was nice. So you're like, ah, and I, I run, and then whoop, I just, I just jumped down. Oh no, it was so cool.

• 1:06:34Speaker 00

  Did it feel any different than any other fight you've had before? No?

• 1:06:37Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:06:37Speaker 00

  We've had so much, what is, how many kickboxing fights have you had?

• 1:06:41Speaker 01

  Seventy-five something.

• 1:06:43Speaker 00

  Seventy-five, that's crazy.

• 1:06:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:46Speaker 00

  That is crazy.

• 1:06:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, yeah, it was.

• 1:06:49Speaker 00

  That's a giant, huge advantage of having so much combat sports experience.

• 1:06:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, but, but where everybody was leaning towards was like, this guy has one professional boxing fight, what is he doing there? This doesn't make any sense. Like, guys, I've been in and around the ring for quite a while, man.

• 1:07:07Speaker 00

  I have a bunch of friends of mine that are just boxing fans.

• 1:07:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:10Speaker 00

  And they were talking all kinds of shit, like, you know.

• 1:07:12Speaker 01

  Oh, so I had so many apologies.

• 1:07:16Speaker 01

  Rico, I've had so many famous boxers, I'd be like, I didn't know what you were capable of, but damn, this was, this was crazy. Like, oh, thank you, appreciate that.

• 1:07:26Speaker 00

  Quite honestly, I didn't know what you're gonna be capable of either, because I knew you as a kickboxer were one of the greatest of, of all time.

• 1:07:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:33Speaker 00

  But as a boxer, I hadn't seen, I'm like, you're taking away one of his biggest weapons, which is the low kicks. I mean, your, your low kicks are phenomenal, you have tree trunk legs. You know, so I was like, that's a giant weapon that's removed from him, like, we'll see, he's also fighting one of the greatest of all time, if not the greatest boxer of all time in the heavyweight division. But to have that kind of a performance and to do it the way you did it, it's like, man. It was, it was amazing to watch. It was to, as a person who likes watching combat sports, it was one of the most exciting things I'd ever watched.

• 1:08:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, thank you so much, I appreciate that. But for me, I think what worked in my advantage the most was if you look at kickboxing, and it's logical, like physically, it's like you're so square on. And everybody thought that was what I was gonna do.

• 1:08:24Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:08:24Speaker 01

  But I was boxing always to kickbox. So, but Peter Fury has been telling me to do, get more on the side

• 1:08:34Speaker 01

  for years, but how, as a kickboxer, am I gonna be more on the side?

• 1:08:37Speaker 00

  You can't.

• 1:08:37Speaker 01

  Because they're gonna kick my leg off.

• 1:08:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:08:39Speaker 01

  Because I can't block anymore.

• 1:08:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:08:41Speaker 01

  So I was constantly trying to find the, the balance within that. And now Peter was super happy, because now finally he could teach me boxing to box.

• 1:08:53Speaker 00

  Right, right, proper stance.

• 1:08:55Speaker 01

  Every time, like, okay, go more to the side, more to the side, because you, you're too square on.

• 1:09:00Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:09:00Speaker 01

  Go back, go, so I needed the six months.

• 1:09:04Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:09:05Speaker 01

  So much hard work, we, we had to put into that.

• 1:09:08Speaker 00

  Did you find yourself like having to correct it mentally? Or did it get to a point where it was instinctive? The stance and the positioning?

• 1:09:17Speaker 01

  We had to, I had to definitely correct, and they had to tell me.

• 1:09:21Speaker 00

  Were you correcting in the fight? In the fight, was it down, was it instinctive?

• 1:09:25Speaker 01

  It was.

• 1:09:26Speaker 00

  You had gotten it in there?

• 1:09:27Speaker 01

  We got it down, but in, within the whole prep, it was.

• 1:09:29Speaker 00

  So you really do need the six months for that?

• 1:09:31Speaker 01

  Hundred percent, hundred percent. So for me.

• 1:09:36Speaker 01

  This, this whole experience of getting into boxing, like, it was perfect. It was perfect. For everybody around it, it was, it was really terrible. Of course, where, where Anthony Joshua went through and everything, so the, the most horrific thing ever. But for me, getting into the transition to boxing, I needed that time to get like a clean, uh, transition. And that's why I was super happy with, with the, the six months and the change of, of fights. Still, I still, I believe like the, the Anthony Joshua fight is still a big fight that we, that we could do. But. Yeah, getting the opportunity to fight for a boxing heavyweight title is on another level big, of course.

• 1:10:21Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, it's gigantic. And, and also, I've gotta think that from that experience, you're even better now.

• 1:10:27Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 1:10:28Speaker 00

  You have to be better, you just, we're in there with the best guy ever.

• 1:10:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, hundred percent, but the, the funny thing is like, uh, that's why I made the meme of, uh, of Jim Carrey, like.

• 1:10:41Speaker 01

  Cause everybody was like, he, he's pulling pretty strange. What is he, what is he doing? But we knew that that thing would work versus, versus Usik. And, but we got so many more tools in the toolbox that we can pull out. Because in another fight, versus a different fighter, we're gonna show a whole different Rico again. But if we're gonna fight Usik again, it's gonna be slightly different, but it's still like basically the, the strategy, the strategy works.

• 1:11:12Speaker 00

  Well, you gave him so many things to think about constantly.

• 1:11:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:16Speaker 00

  There was no time to set.

• 1:11:17Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:11:18Speaker 00

  There was always chaos, there was always hands moving, there was always your bodies moving, you're moving forward, you're shuffling around. It was so much activity that his mind has to constantly process all these different things.

• 1:11:29Speaker 01

  But normally, that is what he does.

• 1:11:31Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:11:32Speaker 01

  And that's if you look at the whole heavyweight division, all the, his previous fights, he was in control. He was showing them so much, and if you have something to look at the whole time, it's like, hmm, it keeps you, it gets your mind out of what you wanna do, because you're constantly anticipating what your opponent is doing. So that's, yeah, what we try to do, we try to take that from him.

• 1:11:55Speaker 00

  What were you doing for conditioning? Like, I just wanna know what your conditioning is like in general, because you are such a big guy. And to be that big and have that kind of cardio is very extraordinary.

• 1:12:11Speaker 01

  Do I agree, do I agree, maybe partially, I agree with that? Because, to be honest, at the top, Joe, everybody works hard, right? That's what I do, I just work incredibly hard. But, I believe that mentally, when you get tired, or when your body gives signals of starting to feel tired, how do you cope with that in your mind? That's where I think the biggest difference is. Because if, at the moment, I feel I'm getting tired, then I know my opponent is feeling fucked.

• 1:12:54Speaker 00

  Right, right, right.

• 1:12:55Speaker 01

  Because I know how hard I work to be fit, and to do everything possible to be in the best shape ever. Because if you look at training schedules, or whatever, from my schedule versus another guy's schedule, I find it hard to believe that I'm training so much harder than all the other top guys. Yeah, that's my opinion, I find that hard to believe. So for me, it's just like a mental thing. As soon as I start feeling it, like, okay, now the fight starts.

• 1:13:27Speaker 00

  Well, there's certain, certain people have genetics that lean towards better cardio and conditioning.

• 1:13:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:34Speaker 00

  Like in the UFC, Kane Velasquez was famous for that.

• 1:13:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, he was a monster.

• 1:13:37Speaker 00

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• 1:15:38Speaker 01

  I think it's pretty balanced, it's pretty balanced. But for example, everything I do is based on endurance. So even the power, I don't have to do 300 pounds bench press.

• 1:15:52Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:15:53Speaker 01

  I don't care, I know I'm already big.

• 1:15:55Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:15:56Speaker 01

  I'm, I'm, I know I'm not the hardest puncher within the game. I don't have to be the hardest puncher in the game. But as soon as I hit, I'm still a heavyweight, still like 260 pounds behind it. So when I hit you, you gotta feel it. So that's how we approach it. I don't, yeah, just lean into what works for you. I'm not the strongest puncher. I also don't believe I'm the most skillful, but I'm definitely the hardest worker. And that's why we try to emphasize, like, just keep working, keep working hard. So we, yeah, the pace is high, we can show a lot, we can do a lot.

• 1:16:36Speaker 00

  Do you have a guy that's just a strength and conditioning guy?

• 1:16:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:39Speaker 00

  That, so like, what kind of work were you doing? What kind of things are you doing?

• 1:16:42Speaker 01

  You wanna know it all, right?

• 1:16:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, I wanna know it all.

• 1:16:45Speaker 01

  I do a, I do a full body, full body workout, uh, three times a week. And just a lot of reps, a lot of reps.

• 1:16:56Speaker 00

  So this is more strength than conditioning? Or is it both at the same time?

• 1:17:00Speaker 01

  It's both at the same time. Because what we do is, we have a, for example, we do chest, and I do like 20 reps, just the beginning, 20 reps. Then we get to another exercise, and then again, I do 20-20 reps. So we do 40 reps each. And those reps are gonna go up, the closer we get to the fight. But the rest between the exercise is just 30 seconds. And then we change exercise. And we go to a different muscle group. And then we go back to chest. And then again, we do 20-20, 30 seconds. Okay, we go to a different muscle group, and then again, 30 seconds. So it's, the pace is incredibly high.

• 1:17:42Speaker 01

  And I think that whole training takes maybe 35, 40 minutes, max.

• 1:17:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's gotta be a giant factor, because I don't know how many people are doing that, that way. You know, a lot of guys are doing strength and/or conditioning, they're running, they're hitting the bag, they're doing different things.

• 1:18:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, but for me, like, I'm not focusing on, when I'm focusing on strength, I don't wanna be big. I feel like I'm already pretty big.

• 1:18:07Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:18:07Speaker 01

  And the more muscles I have, I have to just carry them with me. And all those muscles, they, they want and they need oxygen. So then my heart is gonna be like pumping just to get, get that oxygen there. No, I just focus on that, boom. And then I start with 20, and then I get to 22s, and then I get to 24s. And then with the same exact weight. So you get so much stronger, at the same time, you get so much fitter.

• 1:18:32Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:18:32Speaker 01

  And that combination just, I don't know, it's just, it's just been working for us throughout the years.

• 1:18:38Speaker 00

  So are you using apps and heart rate monitors and things along those lines?

• 1:18:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I use heart rate monitors. The running, um, in different, different ways. We do the interval running, we do the endurance running. Sometimes you just run for an hour. And then you do the interval running.

• 1:18:58Speaker 00

  Is this mostly treadmill work?

• 1:19:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, because like, my, my body's, yeah, been through a lot.

• 1:19:07Speaker 00

  Right, so running on the concrete, running outside, rough on the knees.

• 1:19:10Speaker 01

  No, it's, I don't believe it's smart. So I have this special treadmill, which I'm, I can take some of my own weight off. So I have this big balloon around me.

• 1:19:23Speaker 00

  Oh, okay, I know what you're talking about, I've seen those before.

• 1:19:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I got that, since I had the ACL surgery on the knee. And ever since, I've just been using it, and I love it, I love it. So I can do the, the running experience. And because I love running, because it's so hard, so heavy on the body, and mentally, it's so hard. But then I don't have the full force on my joints, like.

• 1:19:50Speaker 00

  Right, right, right, right.

• 1:19:52Speaker 01

  Just like, yeah, it's not good.

• 1:19:54Speaker 00

  Well, I mean, you gotta think of all those years of leg kicks.

• 1:19:58Speaker 01

  Leg kicks, and, oh my god. Especially when I got the ACL, I was like, oh my god, I'm so.

• 1:20:04Speaker 00

  How long ago did that happen? Three years ago? Three years ago?

• 1:20:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, I thought, I thought I was done. So much pain, so much pain, I was like, why? I'm like getting close to the end of my career, now this happens, like. And then getting back from that, within six months, that was like, because I had a bucket handle meniscus, and had the ACL.

• 1:20:30Speaker 00

  I had exactly the same thing.

• 1:20:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was terrible.

• 1:20:32Speaker 00

  Did they remove the meniscus?

• 1:20:34Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:20:34Speaker 00

  No, they just stitched it up?

• 1:20:35Speaker 01

  They stitched it back, so the first.

• 1:20:36Speaker 00

  Smarter, they know that now.

• 1:20:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, but the first six weeks, you're not allowed to, to put too much pressure on it.

• 1:20:43Speaker 00

  Right, right.

• 1:20:44Speaker 01

  But oh my god, that was terrible.

• 1:20:45Speaker 00

  They used to think that you should cut the meniscus out, now they're, they've done studies and they find that there's no benefit to that.

• 1:20:52Speaker 01

  Of course not, because it's, your meniscus is right between the bones, and right as it is bone on bone, it's.

• 1:20:57Speaker 00

  Exactly, exactly.

• 1:20:59Speaker 01

  Especially with, with me, being so heavy and so big, and like, oh, and within 10 years, you're gonna have trouble if we're gonna take it out.

• 1:21:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, I have trouble on my left leg because of that very reason. They took a big piece of it out when I had the bucket handle tear. And it just, that, that area hurts all the time.

• 1:21:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:16Speaker 00

  It's just, it is what it is. Uh, they do cadaver grafts, where they'll take a cadaver meniscus and put it in place.

• 1:21:22Speaker 01

  Really?

• 1:21:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, they take a piece of meniscus out of a dead guy. But it's, doesn't always work. And you know, you really have to be young for it to work more effectively. I guess, they say that, but that also could be dependent upon what you're doing with it, like, are you using peptides? Are you using stem cells? Are you using hyperbaric chamber?

• 1:21:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:41Speaker 00

  Are you using red light therapy? Are you using all the different modalities that could help you heal quicker?

• 1:21:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:46Speaker 00

  But yeah, they do, I know a guy who got it done.

• 1:21:48Speaker 01

  You definitely use everything, because you have an age today since I, since we did the last show, so.

• 1:21:53Speaker 00

  I use everything, bro.

• 1:21:54Speaker 01

  I don't, I don't know how you do it, but after the show, you gotta give me the recipe.

• 1:21:58Speaker 00

  Well, I probably do a lot of the things you do, because I know you do cold plunge every day.

• 1:22:02Speaker 01

  I love it.

• 1:22:02Speaker 00

  I do that every morning. Um, and I do a lot of sauna work, but I do a lot of red light therapy. I do that at least four or five times a week, I try to do it. I've done, uh, I have a hyperbaric chamber, I do that a lot.

• 1:22:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:14Speaker 00

  I try to do that as many days a week, because like, I've done that two days in a row now. I like to do it three, four days a week. If when I'm really feeling better, is when I'm doing it three or four days a week. And just constantly training, like, you have to, can't get out of shape.

• 1:22:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, you do it all, right? You do.

• 1:22:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, you can't get out of shape. If you get out of shape, you can't get back in shape. But if you stay in shape, it's remarkable how much you can keep it going. Look at Bernard Hopkins. I mean, he was performing at a world-class, world championship level at 50 years old, as a boxer, which is nuts.

• 1:22:43Speaker 01

  That's insane.

• 1:22:44Speaker 00

  And it's just because of his discipline. You know, never got fat, never got out of shape, always stayed in the gym, never ate bad food, never.

• 1:22:51Speaker 01

  Also mentally, it keeps you just in balance.

• 1:22:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:22:54Speaker 01

  Just being there, because that's what I believe, why just training in general for everybody is so good, because that's me time.

• 1:23:03Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:23:03Speaker 01

  That's the time that you're working on what is good for you and for your mental health. And you're not thinking about, hey, I'm, I'm at work, I'm making money to provide for the family, or I'm doing groceries for this. No, I'm in the gym, and I'm working on me. If I can turn your phone off.

• 1:23:20Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:23:21Speaker 01

  Listen to some music and just like work on your body and your mental health. It's it's so good.

• 1:23:26Speaker 00

  And the effects of it afterwards, the alleviation of anxiety and pressure and just how good you feel, the endorphins.

• 1:23:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:34Speaker 00

  I just wish people that don't do it could understand that, cause so many people, they just have an aversion to the hard work. They have an aversion to like getting there. They just like, oh, I don't wanna do it. I don't wanna do it. But if you just do it, you'll feel so much better. And then, everybody wants to talk about discipline. And discipline is very important. It's the most important thing probably, but almost equally important is momentum. And once you have a few good days in a row, the discipline is not as hard anymore, cause now you have momentum.

• 1:24:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, a hundred percent. You're right, but the thing is, what happens, same with the cold plunge that we do multiple times a week, almost every day, is like some days, same as going to work or whatever, you just wake up and you just do not feel like doing it.

• 1:24:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:24:25Speaker 01

  But then, the discipline comes in, like I do not, I do not feel like doing it, but I am gonna do it.

• 1:24:32Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:24:32Speaker 01

  Because if I can do it on the days that I do not feel like doing it, every other day is gonna be easy.

• 1:24:39Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:24:39Speaker 01

  And that's the, for me, what I felt like, like I was just uh sharing with you, like what I find so hard, for example, with the, with the losing and that, that, the, the mistakes that I made, that's what I've been doing like, to be honest, my whole life. That's what I'm trying to work on now. It's like everything that happened in my life, like it's been some crazy, like my mother passed away within this preparation and I do not take the time to, to really take that.

• 1:25:12Speaker 00

  Take it in.

• 1:25:13Speaker 01

  Take it in, like what just happened. And I had the same thing with my father, was like right before the Ben Sadiq fight. And I just take it and I continue, because what I do, I take it and it's a certain emotional pain and I use that to put it in physical pain, so I can use it as fuel

• 1:25:37Speaker 01

  for what I do in the ring and whatever, for as my job. But I feel like, personally in relationships and just in general in just living, I think that's not the way to cope with it. So that's what I'm trying to work on now.

• 1:25:54Speaker 00

  So it's very difficult to be balanced if you also wanna be excellent.

• 1:25:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:58Speaker 00

  If you wanna be the best, you know, if you wanna be and accomplish what you've accomplished, you have to be obsessed. And if you have to be obsessed, it's almost impossible to be balanced. It's almost impossible to have a balanced life and also be obsessed on a goal.

• 1:26:13Speaker 01

  No, a hundred percent, but it, it, I don't feel like it's, it's so much about the balance, but it's just not the way to, to cope with, with life in general, next to being an athlete and being a fighter, which is a big part of what you do. But just like in general, like, okay, how do you, how do you cope with, with things, especially now with this, for example, with this loss? It's like, how do I find a way to give this,

• 1:26:45Speaker 01

  this loss and, and a way of like, okay, that I can work with it without like feeling, feeling frustrated or like, oh, I'm, I got robbed or whatever.

• 1:26:56Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:26:56Speaker 01

  So, and I feel like that's getting better. So I, I watched my mom funeral back, like, I think like,

• 1:27:07Speaker 01

  four or five weeks ago for the very first time. So she passed away in February. That's when I watched it back for the first time, just to take it all in again. And again, I went like all the way through it and I'm like, okay, I need to, to do that more to get, I don't know if it's balanced or just, I don't know, just to get like a way of feeling like, yeah, I can, I can take that, that emotion in, because now I just, every time I'm just pushing that emotion away and just using it as fuel to

• 1:27:44Speaker 01

  be a fighter and be the best version of me within the ring. But like as a, as a person, I don't feel like it's, it's a healthy way to just like keep pushing everything.

• 1:27:54Speaker 00

  No, certainly not.

• 1:27:55Speaker 01

  Pushing it down.

• 1:27:57Speaker 00

  Well, it's great that you recognize that though, and that will definitely help you as you transition from being a fighter to being a retired fighter and doing whatever else you wanna do. You have so much time left in your life to do anything.

• 1:28:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, a hundred percent, a hundred percent.

• 1:28:10Speaker 00

  Recognizing that that is an issue is huge for, for your ability to move on to do other things.

• 1:28:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, a hundred percent.

• 1:28:18Speaker 00

  That's a giant struggle for a lot of fighters. The, the struggle, especially fighters that have competed at your level. You know, the glory, the excitement, the, the, the chaos of it all is so huge.

• 1:28:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:29Speaker 00

  That to step away from that's very, very difficult for a lot of guys.

• 1:28:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's why I'm so happy. And I also believe that what gave me this is that I found my new passion within acting.

• 1:28:43Speaker 01

  But, so being on, on set with Jake Gyllenhaal, with Dave Bautista, with Eldis Hodge,

• 1:28:54Speaker 01

  and those guys being so excellent at what they're doing as actors and then just talking with them about this, I think that also gave me more and more that realization of, hey, instead of just like pushing it away, I can use those emotions and that feeling to be

• 1:29:16Speaker 01

  an actor at a certain point. So, and I always said like, I just, oh, just kept pushing it away. I don't wanna feel it, I don't wanna feel it. And as soon as I feel it, I, I turn it into physical pain. So I know I get a, be a better version of me within the ring. I hear what you're saying, but if you wanna get into acting, it's good to feel. Because as soon as you feel, it's even better, it's gonna transition even better on camera, because then we see that you're feeling something. And if it, if it comes out of your own experience, it's even better. It hurts still, but you can turn it into something positive. And that's where, where I'm really happy about. Like after being a fighter, I really found my new passion within acting, because it's so much fun.

• 1:30:01Speaker 00

  That's great.

• 1:30:02Speaker 01

  Fun to be on set and, yeah, being great at something else.

• 1:30:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's great that you found something else that you're excited about. That's really important, very important. So how many movies have you done?

• 1:30:14Speaker 01

  Uh, I did a few, did a few, I think like a handful. And I think the, the most recognizable things I did was uh, Den of Thieves, Pantera, Den of Thieves Two.

• 1:30:23Speaker 00

  Nice.

• 1:30:24Speaker 01

  Uh, with Gerard and O'Shea Jackson Junior, and, and the last one, Roadhouse. So I know, of course, I've been, uh, I've been talking with Jason like for quite some time now to do something together. So we're looking at different, different options, like, hey, we could do this. But he's like, he has a certain focus on what he, what he sees, like, hey Rico, I want you to do like this type of movie and I want you to be this type of character, because I don't want you to die and I want you to do this, I want you to do that. So it's, yeah, for him being, yeah, so experienced within that world, I just.

• 1:31:04Speaker 00

  Well, also him coming as an athlete as well.

• 1:31:06Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:31:07Speaker 00

  He was a, a world-class diver, right?

• 1:31:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:31:10Speaker 01

  So, and he's a, he's a, he's a martial arts fanatic. He loves it. He loves it.

• 1:31:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:31:16Speaker 01

  So, uh, so that's, yeah, that's, that's amazing. So and then, yeah, telling him that, like, hey, I love X, so I, he comes to my fights, I, I visit him on set, like, hey, I just look at what he does and how he does it, it's, yeah, it's out of this world, it's the next level.

• 1:31:31Speaker 00

  Well, that's so good that you have something that you're really excited about as you retire, like transitioning into that and that you already have some success with that.

• 1:31:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, a hundred percent, a hundred percent.

• 1:31:41Speaker 00

  And Dave Bautista is another one, like, right? Like, huge success in WWE, went on to do that, and now he's done a ton of movies.

• 1:31:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, and he's, he's really good.

• 1:31:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, he's really good. He's a very good actor.

• 1:31:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's not just like, oh, he's an athlete that, that tried to do some acting. No, he's, he's a really good actor and he showed so many different sides of himself.

• 1:32:02Speaker 00

  He was great in that, what was it, The Glass Onion? Was that what it was called? Yeah, the, what is that?

• 1:32:10Speaker 03

  Knives Out.

• 1:32:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:32:14Speaker 00

  Knives Out Glass Onion, right? That's what it was called? He was great in that.

• 1:32:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:17Speaker 00

  He's great. He's, I mean, again, it's like, you see these big guys and you say, oh, they're big and they're just gonna play a brute. But no, it's like, he's a human.

• 1:32:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:27Speaker 00

  Human beings have depth. You could do a lot of different things.

• 1:32:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly, so.

• 1:32:31Speaker 00

  He's got a, he's losing weight now, just like show he's like.

• 1:32:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, but he's, he looks amazing now. Yeah, he's, he's still big.

• 1:32:38Speaker 00

  He's still two hundred, I mean, like, oh, he's so small. He's two forty. He's huge.

• 1:32:42Speaker 01

  No, he's huge and he's in great shape. He's in great, I mean, he's the nicest guy as well.

• 1:32:46Speaker 00

  Oh, that's cool.

• 1:32:47Speaker 01

  He's the nicest guy, so we had, no, we had a lot of fun. We had a lot of fun, so it was such an honor to be there on set with them and on such a big production. It's like, wow, just looking at.

• 1:32:58Speaker 00

  So how do you balance that out? Like, now that you, like, as you've said, you're in the winter of your career, uh, would you accept a movie role right now if you knew that a big fight could potentially happen?

• 1:33:08Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:33:09Speaker 00

  So you have to be careful right now?

• 1:33:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, for me, it's like, I'm focused on finishing that and as soon as, as I, then I have a movie, like, okay, but then I'm not gonna do a fight. That's, it's gonna be hard. So, and especially, uh, within the other one, I didn't really get the option because I was on Roadhouse and then I got the Anthony Joshua fight, but back then, I was just the kickboxer.

• 1:33:36Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:33:37Speaker 01

  The kickboxer, world champion, but that didn't really say too much. So I was in the underdog position. I was in the passenger seat. Now, I show what I can do, so now I got a little more like, yo, guys, I got a movie, so can we push the fight a little bit further? So I have the time to get ready for it.

• 1:33:56Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:33:56Speaker 01

  So that's, that's better now, but for me, I would never blend those two together or like, hey, okay, let me finish this movie real quick and then get straight into, uh, a fight camp that's gonna be like, oh, two, two and a half months. I need a good, like, clean four months to get ready for a fight of this magnitude.

• 1:34:16Speaker 00

  Right. So, um, when you're talking about these different conversations that people have had with you, is the door completely closed to the UFC? Cause I know that they did contact you and you were talking, they were talking about you fighting and that they were gonna try to do that Derrick Lewis fight. I was excited about that.

• 1:34:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, me too.

• 1:34:35Speaker 00

  But the, the money was nowhere near. I'm sure the money that you got for the Lewis fight.

• 1:34:39Speaker 01

  So I believe that, that the gap is even bigger now.

• 1:34:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, sure.

• 1:34:44Speaker 01

  So I think that's, that's where, that's where the, the actual problem is just to be completely transparent. So for me, it doesn't make any sense to.

• 1:34:53Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:34:54Speaker 01

  Go around the bush or whatever.

• 1:34:55Speaker 00

  And go backwards.

• 1:34:56Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:34:57Speaker 00

  Financially, yeah.

• 1:34:58Speaker 01

  I, i- if, if they would wanna do something, it really has to make sense, but, yeah, we all know that, yeah, that's not really like how the UFC works. So I don't believe that that is an option.

• 1:35:11Speaker 00

  Well, that's interesting because their heavyweight division is so, um, have you ever worked with Tom Aspinall?

• 1:35:17Speaker 01

  Of course. He's, he's a very good friend of mine.

• 1:35:19Speaker 00

  Oh, really?

• 1:35:20Speaker 01

  Uh, we trained, we trained so.

• 1:35:22Speaker 00

  I've seen video of you guys training.

• 1:35:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, we trained so much already for like, I think, close to ten years.

• 1:35:26Speaker 00

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• 1:37:29Speaker 00

  You know, the way people got upset at him for stopping the fight, uh, with those eye pokes, that's, to me, that drove me crazy. Like, what do you expect the guy to do?

• 1:37:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:40Speaker 00

  He's defending the heavyweight title. He get poked in the eyes and he can't fucking see, and he's had two eye surgeries since then.

• 1:37:45Speaker 01

  And he's the, he's the nicest guy. He's the nicest guy and he works incredibly hard and he would never, never, even though, because I understand where it comes from, from the people to a certain extent, because they feel like, hey, God was doing so good in the beginning of the fight, but it was just the beginning of the fight. It was just like the first round or whatever. So it's possible that, hey, because of some ring rust, you had to get into it and then the fight ain't over till it's over, right? So you can have an opinion about that the first round, and oh, he get an eye poke, oh, now he's gonna stop because he knew he was behind or whatever. He would never, never, in whatever world, do that because he has a fighter heart.

• 1:38:30Speaker 00

  The eye poke is not, he was knuckled deep in his eyeball.

• 1:38:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was like gone.

• 1:38:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, and unfortunately, Cyril Gahn has a history of doing that. He's done that.

• 1:38:39Speaker 01

  And also, and definitely, I, I truly believe because I know Cyril as well, he's also a very nice guy and I do not believe he's doing that intentionally to fuck with people or whatever.

• 1:38:50Speaker 00

  It's just a bad instinct that keeps happening.

• 1:38:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe it's a habit or whatever, yeah.

• 1:38:55Speaker 00

  You're doing this and you're running right into eyeballs. It's just, they, they need to stop doing it, you know, I mean, there's, there's a bunch of different conversations about how to stop it.

• 1:39:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:07Speaker 00

  One of them is change the gloves. Um, you don't need open fingers like that. They don't have, you don't need that for grappling. No, they could cover the tip of it like a mitten, you know, and there's, there's a way to do that where it would probably eliminate a lot of the eye pokes. Another one is, is a guy named Trevor Whitman from Onyx Sports. He's Justin Gagey's trainer, who's, makes a much better glove.

• 1:39:28Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:39:29Speaker 00

  And his glove, your hand is in this position all the time. Instead of the UFC glove, UFC glove, your hand's like this.

• 1:39:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, your fingers are open.

• 1:39:36Speaker 00

  Pull it down to tighten up the fist. And this, with Trevor's gloves, it's curved like this. So this is a natural position. So you would, like, when Muay Thai fighters, like Cyril Gahn, they, they frame off like that all the time, right? You know that. So when you have those UFC gloves, you're framing off like this.

• 1:39:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:54Speaker 00

  And that's when you're running into eye pokes, you know, so they're trying to tell you, keep your fingers up, which is great, but sometimes it doesn't work that way.

• 1:40:01Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:40:01Speaker 00

  Especially if you're leaning away.

• 1:40:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:03Speaker 00

  You know, I don't think Cyril Gahn's a dirty fighter. I just think he's trying to finish fights. Like, Alex Pereira thought he was dirty for hitting him in the back of the head. And I watched the fight over again to watch it and what I saw is Alex is moving, Cyril's trying to hit him, and sometimes when that happens, some of the shots are gonna land on the back of the head.

• 1:40:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:23Speaker 00

  But what.

• 1:40:23Speaker 01

  But is it the referee that needs to like, say like, hey, stop it?

• 1:40:27Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:40:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, we're fighting, so you're gonna try and punch whatever you get.

• 1:40:30Speaker 00

  It's hard because you're also, like, you, he might not have the best position to see it, cause it's chaos. And also, like, if you're trying to hit, like, a guy right here and then his head moves and then you hit the back of the head, whose fault is that? Is that your fault? Are you supposed to pull back? You're in the middle of a shot. It's very difficult to stop. It's hard to say, but when you look at his performance in that fight against Alex Pereira, it was fucking extraordinary, man. He's, we were, it was a group chat. I have with a few friends of mine, Dean Thomas and Matt Sarah and John Rallo. We do a podcast together and we were just talking about how basketball is a phenomenal base for some of these guys because Cyril Gahn,

• 1:41:12Speaker 00

  I'm gonna show you, I'll send you this video. I'll, I'll send it to Jamie. Cyril Gahn can fucking move, man, and some of the.

• 1:41:19Speaker 01

  He's light, light feet as well.

• 1:41:21Speaker 00

  And he's two hundred fifty pounds.

• 1:41:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:23Speaker 00

  But it's the way he moves is so extraordinary and I think some of that is because of basketball, because, yeah, well, no, it's not that one.

• 1:41:32Speaker 03

  This is a brand new video. He's playing against the NBA Center.

• 1:41:35Speaker 00

  Oh, man. There's multiple videos of it then because he's, I mean, he's pretty sick.

• 1:41:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:42Speaker 00

  But that's one of them.

• 1:41:44Speaker 01

  I was with him. We did a little moving, moving around together on Den of Thieves 2.

• 1:41:51Speaker 00

  Oh, okay.

• 1:41:52Speaker 01

  He was in there. We were in the scene together. So that was fun.

• 1:41:55Speaker 00

  It's just having a guy.

• 1:41:56Speaker 01

  And he's such a nice guy. He's like so light.

• 1:41:59Speaker 00

  So light.

• 1:42:00Speaker 01

  He moves around so like.

• 1:42:01Speaker 00

  And so hard to hit, man. He doesn't, he's never been in trouble in the fight. I mean, he got finished by Jon Jones, but that was a submission. And Francis Ngano just beat him by grappling.

• 1:42:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:11Speaker 00

  But he's never been like rocked or staggered. He hardly gets hit.

• 1:42:15Speaker 01

  No, because.

• 1:42:15Speaker 00

  His movement is so extraordinary.

• 1:42:17Speaker 01

  Especially for a big guy, but that's why I believe, but Tom has that as well.

• 1:42:21Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:42:22Speaker 01

  He has that move. He is light on his feet.

• 1:42:24Speaker 00

  Blitz is extraordinary. His ability to cover distance is insane. And he's got one punch knockout power.

• 1:42:29Speaker 01

  He's so explosive. Like boom, he can, that's, I believe he can be a good boxer, but he can also be a good kick boxer and he's a good MMA fighter. He's so all around because when he, he comes to kick, when he came to kick box, wow.

• 1:42:45Speaker 00

  Well, I just hate, I just hate that fans reacted the way they reacted and it's the casual ones. It's the shitheads, you know? I, for me, I was like, God, you gotta give the guy some grace. He got his eye poked out. I mean, he, he literally was knuckle deep in his eyes. For, for him to, for anyone to think that he should be fighting with one eye like that. Who cares? Keep fighting. That's insane. He got fouled. It's not because of a punch. It's not because of he got kicked or an elbow. It's a foul. And so, no, the fight should have been stopped the way it was and that's, everybody should understand that. It's not his fault. It was his opponent's fault.

• 1:43:27Speaker 01

  But how he got to this was like because of the whole deal he has, like how much sense does it make for me to, to get into the UFC? Because Connor got like a great deal now for his last fight.

• 1:43:40Speaker 00

  No, for you, boxing makes the most sense, especially at this point in your life financially. And, you know, for, for Tom, I mean, he, look, he has a potential career in boxing as well. And now that Eddie Hearn is managing him, which is very exciting. Because, you know, Matchroom being behind him is gonna have a gigantic hype machine, gigantic promotion. Like, I think it's huge. And that they're at odds with the UFC, like for me, I care about the fighters making the most money possible.

• 1:44:09Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:44:09Speaker 00

  And that's how he's gonna make the most money possible.

• 1:44:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. But like you said, that's what I believe, like all the fighters deserve, the fighters that, that bring in the viewers, that are exciting. Yeah, they should earn a little bit more, right? That is.

• 1:44:24Speaker 00

  A hundred percent.

• 1:44:25Speaker 01

  Everything should be in balance.

• 1:44:27Speaker 00

  A hundred percent. And that's, I mean, this is where Turkey Alashak has really ramped up the game, really raised the bar. Because the, he's getting guys to fight that didn't want to fight each other.

• 1:44:39Speaker 01

  No, exactly.

• 1:44:40Speaker 00

  And he's like, how about this amount?

• 1:44:42Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:44:43Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:44:44Speaker 01

  Okay, there we go. But that, but that's how we, we got the biggest fight. But, but next to that, with him giving me the opportunity as well. What he does is he thinks outside of the box. And that's what I love so much about what, what, what he does. Because we had also the Francis Ngano Tyson Fury fight.

• 1:45:07Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:45:07Speaker 01

  And that was also like.

• 1:45:09Speaker 00

  Crazy, right?

• 1:45:10Speaker 01

  I don't know about that.

• 1:45:11Speaker 00

  Zero professional boxing matches for Francis.

• 1:45:15Speaker 01

  Exactly. So that, and that decision was also a little bit controversial.

• 1:45:19Speaker 00

  Very controversial.

• 1:45:20Speaker 01

  I don't know. So, but that's why I like what he does. He thinks outside of the box. Like, hey, no, I like this idea. Yeah, let's just try it.

• 1:45:30Speaker 00

  Terrence Crawford versus Canelo Alvarez. That's way outside the box.

• 1:45:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:45:34Speaker 00

  You got a guy moving up two weight classes?

• 1:45:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:45:37Speaker 00

  To fight an all time great? I mean, it was, and a lot of people thought Canelo's too big, Canelo's too big.

• 1:45:42Speaker 01

  Wow, that was an amazing fight.

• 1:45:43Speaker 00

  Oh, my God. Terrence Crawford is one of the greatest of all time.

• 1:45:48Speaker 01

  A hundred percent.

• 1:45:48Speaker 00

  He is so smooth. It's so good. When he was just pap, pap, pap, pap, rip and doing that to Canelo Alvarez?

• 1:45:56Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:45:57Speaker 00

  Oh, my goodness. It was amazing to watch, to watch a guy that's that skillful and have those skills and, you know, move up multiple weight classes.

• 1:46:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, incredible.

• 1:46:07Speaker 00

  And pull it off against a guy like Canelo. And.

• 1:46:09Speaker 01

  And everybody said like, oh, he's not gonna, he's not gonna have a shot because Canelo's gonna be too big as soon as he, as he hit him, he's gonna get rocked. And it's like, no, I think, no, that was, that was incredible. And they were, they were all at the fight in pyramids, by the way.

• 1:46:22Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, it's also, Terrence is very smart and Terrence prepared for that fight for like a year. And put on some weight, but not too much. You know, he did a lot of weightlifting, but just enough. But just, also, he was healthier because he didn't have to cut so much weight.

• 1:46:39Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:46:40Speaker 00

  That's a thing to take into consideration. You, you got a guy who's cutting all that weight to make all the different weight classes that he was championing, all the way up to 154. And then all of a sudden he doesn't have to cut weight. Well, guess what? He's probably walking around 176, 177 anyway.

• 1:46:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. So.

• 1:46:55Speaker 00

  So it was probably a better performance for him. Like physically, he probably felt much better.

• 1:47:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:01Speaker 00

  And he's also used to faster guys and he's so light on his feet.

• 1:47:04Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. A hundred percent. That was so exciting. So that's what, yeah, what he does, he, he makes the fights that otherwise would have been made.

• 1:47:14Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:47:15Speaker 01

  So, and I think I respect him for that so much and I'm thankful for that as well. So let's see what he's gonna pull out of the head this time for me.

• 1:47:26Speaker 00

  Well, I mean, for sure now people are gonna be excited about you fighting again. And it's even more marketable by far than the first fight was. I just hope it's a rematch. I really do. Because I think that's the just fight to have. That's the correct fight to have, a rematch. When a fight is that close and ends that controversially and then the judging is, the scoring is that bad, you, the, the right thing to do is to have a rematch.

• 1:47:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then in a different, like I said, in a different environment, in a different situation.

• 1:47:59Speaker 00

  Vegas or Madison Square Garden?

• 1:48:02Speaker 01

  I gotta be honest, Joe, they're both still on the bucket list.

• 1:48:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:48:07Speaker 01

  I fought in New York, but it was like in, I don't know, in a ballroom, something. I don't, I didn't even remember what it was. But it's, I think 2012 or something. So, yeah, Madison Square Garden and Vegas are still on the, on the bucket list.

• 1:48:21Speaker 00

  Look, Vegas is great, but Madison Square Garden is iconic. There's something about being in that building. Every time we have fights, we do a UFC in that building. It's like, wow, we're in the Garden. Like that, that is a special place to be.

• 1:48:34Speaker 01

  So many things that happened there. Concerts and basketball, whatever. So, yeah.

• 1:48:40Speaker 00

  So many concerts, so many fights, so many everything. It's just, and it's also in New York City. And as much as New York City is crazy and it's like, it's beep, beep and honk, honk and fuck you. It's still New York motherfucking city. And to have a great world championship fight in New York City is something special. There's something, you feel different when they say, live from Madison Square Garden. You're like, oh shit, it's the Garden. You know, it's, when you, when you're in the room, when we have fights there, being in the room feels different.

• 1:49:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, a hundred percent. But that, that's also one of the things that, that he did. A fight on Times Square.

• 1:49:21Speaker 00

  I know.

• 1:49:22Speaker 01

  Who, who thinks of that? Like, and the thing is, is for him, I, I believe that whenever you, when he, when you hear something and you say, nah, that's not possible. I think that's the right trigger. He does the, exactly the trigger he needs. Like, I'll make it possible. I'll make it happen. It's the same with the pyramids. And then with, with the Times Square, it's like, nah, I don't think that's gonna happen.

• 1:49:46Speaker 00

  Well, they have a bottomless bank account.

• 1:49:49Speaker 00

  That's the thing. It's like, they could just.

• 1:49:51Speaker 01

  They make things possible.

• 1:49:53Speaker 00

  They, they just throw so much money at guys like, and that is exciting. I mean, that's something that boxing has needed because it's, look, it took so long to get Floyd Mayweather to fight Manny Pacquiao. Right? That was a gigantic fight. It took forever. And arguably Manny was past his prime when they wound, wound up actually fighting again, which pissed a lot of people off. If they had been around back then, if Turkey Alashak had been around back then, they, and Riyadh season has been around, had been around back then, they probably would have made that happen when they're in their prime.

• 1:50:23Speaker 01

  A hundred percent.

• 1:50:24Speaker 00

  That's what, that's what boxing needs. That's what MMA needs. That's what everybody needs. The UFC does that in MMA. They kind of force guys to fight. You, you can't get away from it.

• 1:50:34Speaker 01

  No, only the payday is different, but.

• 1:50:36Speaker 00

  Yes. But, you know, at the highest levels, guys like Connor, they're making similar money. But it's just that, that needs to change in terms of it has to be like, it has to be enticing enough that you're gonna get the best athletes that realize like, hey, I don't have to go into basketball. I don't have to go, what I really like is fighting. Like, and the, and there's enough money in fighting now.

• 1:50:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, a hundred percent.

• 1:50:58Speaker 00

  Like everything else.

• 1:50:59Speaker 01

  But that's the problem. Like we just talked about, we started off with, with the whole kickboxing. There's no money to be made.

• 1:51:06Speaker 00

  Right. That is the problem.

• 1:51:07Speaker 01

  So, well, I mean.

• 1:51:09Speaker 00

  Maybe MVP can figure that out because, you know, they're, they're dedicated to entering into the MMA space now and they just merged with the PFL. Which I think is very exciting. Cause I think competition is good. Competition is great and the more competition, the better. And definitely better for the fighters to have options.

• 1:51:27Speaker 01

  A hundred percent.

• 1:51:27Speaker 00

  And they've got guys over there in the PFL now that are fucking world class, man. They've got some world class fighters. So it's exciting. It's exciting to have. It's just, they just need to get bigger in terms of the public's recognition.

• 1:51:41Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:51:42Speaker 00

  So right now, everybody thinks of UFC as being MMA. UFC, it's like PFL for the average casual is like, what? Who's that?

• 1:51:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. What did he do?

• 1:51:51Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:51:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. But I think, to be honest, Joe, if we look at 10 years ago, Combat Sports is at its all time high. Boxing, MMA, kickboxing, everything is like going through the roof.

• 1:52:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, everything is bigger now.

• 1:52:06Speaker 01

  I think we're in a, we're in a very blessed position.

• 1:52:09Speaker 00

  Well, twenty years ago, nobody even knew what MMA was. Twenty-one years ago was the first Ultimate Fighter, season one, two thousand and five. And that was really when MMA kinda made it onto the map in terms of the general public understanding of it. From the Ultimate Fighter and that Stefan Bonner Forrest Griffin fight. But you could see a world where kickboxing could enter into that, you know, ten years from now be in the same, a similar category, and I think it should be, I really do.

• 1:52:37Speaker 01

  And it's just because of the, the modern day world, because of social media and so many different people coming into the sport, and people can say and have an opinion about it, but, for example, with, with, with Jake Paul and et cetera and all the influencers, but they're bringing a lot of new eyes to the combat sport, to boxing.

• 1:53:00Speaker 00

  A lot of new eyes. So I think that's. Could you imagine if an organization got behind a guy like Ramon Deckers and showed him to the American public when he was in his prime? People would be like, holy shit, who is this guy? This fucking monster, this animal, this technical animal, you know? Like, that's the thing, that's the thing about where you come from, too. Like, for people that don't know, kickboxing in Holland, that is the epicenter of world championship kickboxing. I mean, Rob Caiman, Ernesto Hughes, you, I mean, so Peter Arz. Oh my god, you could go on and on and on and on and on, so many of the greatest kickboxers,

• 1:53:45Speaker 00

  of course Ramon Deckers, but so many of the greatest kickboxers of all time came from Holland. You know, I mean, we mentioned Botter Hari, I mean, so many of these great, Melvin Manhoof, so many of these great guys.

• 1:53:59Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 1:53:59Speaker 00

  Came out of Holland. It's kind of nuts if you really think about it.

• 1:54:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, now we're such a small country, but, and everybody exchanges their intelligence with each other, and I believe that because we're such a small country, that's what increases the level so much, everybody trains also with each other. Go there, we go sparring with them, we go sparring with them, we go sparring with them, and then, you, you learn this from that guy, you learn that from that guy, and if you do that, for example, in, in the US, you wanna train with somebody out in, from New York, you gotta fly all the way there, you're not gonna stay there too long, I think it just takes too much time, and because in our country, we can just drive anywhere, and it's, but it's also one of the reasons why pay-per-view never worked there, because if they, if they

• 1:54:48Speaker 01

  wanted to, to, to visit, uh, an event, just drive there, like, I'm not gonna stay home and pay for it, that doesn't make any sense, I'll just drive there and just go watch it live.

• 1:54:58Speaker 00

  Well, that's also why the crowds are so huge, because you guys got massive crowds for some of those kickboxing fights.

• 1:55:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:05Speaker 00

  People don't know, in America, they don't know how big kickboxing is in Holland, in the Netherlands, it's gigantic.

• 1:55:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, no, it's like, I think, number two sport.

• 1:55:15Speaker 00

  That's crazy.

• 1:55:16Speaker 01

  After soccer.

• 1:55:16Speaker 00

  Isn't that funny?

• 1:55:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:55:19Speaker 00

  It's kind of crazy, if you think about it, it's such a small, like, how many people even live in Holland?

• 1:55:25Speaker 01

  Sixteen, seventy million?

• 1:55:28Speaker 00

  Yeah. That's nuts, it's a small country with the greatest kickboxers of all time, it's like, it's an anomaly, it's very weird. Very weird how it happened.

• 1:55:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, and also, like, I think this now, for the last, I think after, like, for the last ten years, it's, we've been so good at kickboxing for the last twenty-five years or even longer, but now, since the last ten years, it's been recognized as well for the public. You've always been good at it, but it's always been like, mm, I don't know, a little bit shady or whatever, and now since the last ten years, since me and Botter, like, put it on the map, just exploded, and everybody just, yeah, went behind it, like, wow, oh, this is cool, this is cool to watch, we're good at this, we're, we're, we're the best in the world at this sport.

• 1:56:24Speaker 00

  Are there gyms all over the place in Holland?

• 1:56:26Speaker 01

  It's incre, it's, it was crazy, at a certain point, it went, it was so crazy that every random guy could become a kickboxing teacher, so now, because it's, it be, because it became so big and so public, they started to do it, like, okay, you got, you gotta get like an, uh, like a diploma and a certificate to become a kickboxing trainer, you cannot just random say like, hey, I'm a kickboxing trainer, start kickboxing, start teaching people, but at a certain point, that was, that was the case.

• 1:56:56Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 1:56:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was crazy, but it's.

• 1:56:58Speaker 00

  So what happened? How did Holland become so big in kickboxing?

• 1:57:03Speaker 01

  I think they, yeah, with Ramon Deckers and everything, they went to, uh, yeah, to Thailand, and just like, sucked all the information out of that, and we had, yeah, fighters, trainers going there, and they took like, the Muay Thai of it, and they took that to the, to the Netherlands, and then like, exchanged, like I said, because the country is so small, they exchanged everything with each other, like, this guy learned that, that guy learned that, and if you exchange that with, with each other, you just get better and you get smarter.

• 1:57:36Speaker 00

  But it also has to be something about the culture, the mentality of the, yeah.

• 1:57:41Speaker 01

  We're, we're, we're pretty.

• 1:57:42Speaker 00

  Big people.

• 1:57:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, pretty big people.

• 1:57:44Speaker 00

  But Rob Ca, I mean, excuse me, Ramon Deckers was not big.

• 1:57:47Speaker 01

  No, he was not big, he was not big.

• 1:57:48Speaker 00

  Which was one of the most extraordinary parts of his career, was that he was competing against Thais.

• 1:57:53Speaker 01

  Thais, but in, but in Muay Thai.

• 1:57:56Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:57:56Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:57:57Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:57:57Speaker 01

  That was, that was insane, with elbows and, it was brutal.

• 1:58:01Speaker 00

  But his boxing, too, was a giant factor.

• 1:58:04Speaker 01

  So explosive.

• 1:58:05Speaker 00

  So explosive, and his style was so aggressive, like, he was like feral. He was feral, he was just like, for people who haven't seen, please go to YouTube and watch Ramon Deckers highlights.

• 1:58:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:18Speaker 00

  Woo!

• 1:58:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:20Speaker 00

  Oh my god, some of the highlights of his, his knockout highlights, like, holy shit, man.

• 1:58:26Speaker 01

  It's incredible.

• 1:58:27Speaker 00

  Everything was designed to kill you.

• 1:58:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:30Speaker 00

  Every shot, every leg kick, every liver shot, every punch to the face, everything was just full speed ahead.

• 1:58:37Speaker 01

  Power, explosive.

• 1:58:38Speaker 00

  Smash.

• 1:58:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:40Speaker 00

  His ankle was so fucked up that his doctor told him, like, you can't keep kicking with that thing, like, you're gonna like, lose your ankle, fucking taped it up, blast, still blasting people.

• 1:58:51Speaker 01

  I was like a kid, and I was watching these, these fights, like, oh my god, it was, and then with him being so explosive, and then kicking on a, on a block, on a knee or on an elbow, she's like, bop, bop.

• 1:59:06Speaker 00

  Just right into it.

• 1:59:07Speaker 01

  It's just like, oh, it's just bone on bone, oh, just, just by looking at it, it just hurts.

• 1:59:12Speaker 00

  Just destroyed his ankle because of that, I mean, in his later fights, later in his years, like, when he fought, um, Dwayne Ludwig, I mean, he had to have his ankle taped all over the fucking place, big thing was like hanging on by a thread.

• 1:59:24Speaker 01

  But that's, that's what, what we were talking about, like, earlier, it's like, we as, as fighters, putting our health on the line for entertainment.

• 1:59:37Speaker 00

  I mean, forever, he died young.

• 1:59:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, he died young, but, okay, that, that happens, you do, you do that because you love the sport, but then, yeah, everything needs to be transparent, and it needs to be safe, and with the judging, and it, yeah, it needs to be, it needs to be, I'm best so money-wise, and with the judging, and everything just needs to be, yeah, needs to be right, because what we do is out of this world.

• 2:00:01Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 2:00:02Speaker 01

  And it's, it's not just kickboxing, it's boxing, it's MMA, that's what all the, that's what we do.

• 2:00:07Speaker 00

  And it's the reason why it's so exciting, it's part of the reason why it's so exciting is we know how dangerous it is.

• 2:00:13Speaker 01

  Exactly, but it, and that's why I feel like it has to be, it has to be fair, and it needs to be compensated the right way.

• 2:00:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:00:21Speaker 01

  So everybody's like, oh, he's making so much money, okay, but he can only, he can't do that till he's sixty-five or whatever, so, yeah.

• 2:00:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, there's such a small window, which is one of the things that's so extraordinary about your career, that you've managed to stay on top for so long, because generally when we look at world-class fighters, there's a, a rule that a lot of, uh, experts supposedly have said, is that it's about nine years. You can only really compete at, in your prime for nine years. You've shown yourself to be an exception to that rule, because you've been competing in your prime for a lot longer than that.

• 2:01:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, twelve.

• 2:01:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, and you're, you're not dropping off at all, and you weren't dropping off, you were still dominant in kickboxing when you decided to step away.

• 2:01:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:01:08Speaker 00

  So it's like, even though you are an outlier, and that you've been able to extend it longer than anybody, it's still, there's a window, you're not gonna be able to do this when you're fifty, you know, you're not gonna be able to do this when you're sixty, it's like, you have a small window where you can compete, and it's, the people are paying to see you, they're not paying to see the promoter, they're not paying to see anything else, they're not paying to hear the commentators, they're paying to see the fighters perform at the very highest level of the most exciting sport on earth.

• 2:01:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that's why I'm saying this, because it's. It's not as much for me anymore because I'm I'm I'm I'm closer being finished.

• 2:01:47Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:01:48Speaker 01

  You know, like I like we said, I'm in the winner of my career, but it's for the next generation.

• 2:01:52Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 2:01:53Speaker 01

  The next generation should be excited to to get into combat sports and feel like, hey, I want to do this because I can and it is fair, it is transparent and I'm fighting, but I can make a very good living out of this and I could like build like generational wealth with it.

• 2:02:13Speaker 00

  Well, that's what's really good about like this MVP PFL merger and having a bunch of hype on that, like the more competition, the better, the more it's the more eyes on the sport, the more people watch the sport, the more money will be in the sport.

• 2:02:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:02:27Speaker 00

  And then the more the fighters will have options for who to fight for.

• 2:02:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, and I think that's the best thing, like you just said, like options.

• 2:02:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, it's phenomenal.

• 2:02:36Speaker 01

  If you have options, that's the best thing ever, right?

• 2:02:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:02:39Speaker 01

  It's like, hey, we got this, we got that and it's not that you gotta like play them out against each other, but still it's it is a good thing because if you just have one option, it's like, hey, take it or leave it.

• 2:02:51Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 2:02:51Speaker 01

  This is what it is and if you get like, ah, the other guy's saying this, so let me go there.

• 2:02:55Speaker 00

  Reality is we could use one more, you know, not just MVP, but also another. I wish one was doing better, you know, if one was doing better and they were a viable option as well, because I know some guys did go over there with great success, like Mighty Mouse went over there with great success. Uh, we need more, we need more options for fighters and you know, it's it's unusual in that in um boxing, for instance, what's really important is the name of the fighters.

• 2:03:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:22Speaker 00

  That's what's important, you know, if uh Dimitri Bivol is fighting, it's it's people are going to see, they don't give a fuck who the promoter is.

• 2:03:28Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:03:28Speaker 00

  They want to see Bivol fight.

• 2:03:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:30Speaker 00

  You know, if it's Arthur Betterbev, they want to see him fight.

• 2:03:32Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 2:03:32Speaker 00

  That's all that's all everybody gives a shit about. In MMA, it's UFC.

• 2:03:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:36Speaker 00

  And the only the exception to that was of course this last MVP card where Ronda Rousey fought.

• 2:03:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:42Speaker 00

  So everybody's like, oh, my gosh, she's a legend, she's fighting and that and Francis Ngana was on the card.

• 2:03:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:47Speaker 00

  So a lot of eyeballs got on that. So we need more of that and more of that is good for everybody.

• 2:03:51Speaker 01

  And just like built, uh, like like we just talked about, build stories around those people.

• 2:03:57Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 2:03:57Speaker 01

  Who who are those people next to being fighters? Okay, they're incredibly amazing in what they do in the in the ring or in the octagon or whatever. Okay, but who is the person behind?

• 2:04:09Speaker 00

  Right, right.

• 2:04:09Speaker 01

  Behind, okay, who, oh, he's a father. Oh, really? He has two, I never knew.

• 2:04:14Speaker 00

  Oh, he likes to play chess.

• 2:04:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly, yeah. So that gives that gives them so much more depth and I also believe that that makes them more human.

• 2:04:24Speaker 00

  Yes, for sure. Seeing their family, seeing them interact with their kids.

• 2:04:28Speaker 01

  Everybody gets like closer to, oh, wow, this guy could be my neighbor.

• 2:04:33Speaker 00

  Right, right.

• 2:04:35Speaker 01

  Because he also has kids, oh, he brings his kids to school and whatever.

• 2:04:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, you're invested in him.

• 2:04:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:04:39Speaker 00

  Like you like him, you want him to win.

• 2:04:41Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 2:04:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, that's a big part of it and that's something that they need to do and that I think you're right about Glory. They really never did that. That was not really a part of the Glory promotion.

• 2:04:49Speaker 01

  No, they were just like, put in fights, put the best versus the best.

• 2:04:53Speaker 00

  Listen, for me, I didn't care. It was fucking great. I love it. I'm a giant Glory fan, man. Every time there's a card, I can't wait. But I watch it and people are like, what are you watching? I'm like, Glory's on. They're like, what the fuck is Glory?

• 2:05:05Speaker 01

  Never heard, yeah, I never heard about that.

• 2:05:07Speaker 00

  It's like even my friends in in MMA don't don't understand.

• 2:05:11Speaker 01

  No, wow, the real, the people that the trainers and everybody, they a lot of times they get like the Glory fighters in to to prepare their fighters to to get into UFC.

• 2:05:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:05:22Speaker 01

  Or for big fights or whatever, because like, hey, they know that their their stand up is, you know, on a level, yeah.

• 2:05:27Speaker 00

  Elite, I mean, and like I said, One FC has a lot of elite fighters. They're they're they're especially at the lighter weight classes, there's a lot of real Jonathan Haggerty, he he just beat Yuki Yozu, who's another guy, this guy from Japan, this Kyokushin guy fucks up people's legs and he's really good. And then there's this guy from Dagestan, who might be the best striker alive, uh Azadullah Iman Gazaliyev. This dude, he's really tall and he fights at a hundred thirty-five pounds and he's fucking nasty, man. He's so technical, undefeated, and he's from Dagestan. There's so many savages that are coming out of Dagestan, just straight up killers, man. There's a dude who just won in the PFL,

• 2:06:09Speaker 00

  Magomedov, who just won in the PFL this past weekend, another guy, he fights like uh Iman Gazaliyev.

• 2:06:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:14Speaker 00

  Real similar, both guys from Dagestan, similar styles, man.

• 2:06:17Speaker 01

  I love it.

• 2:06:18Speaker 00

  It's question mark kicks and uh uh elite stabbing front kicks and just real slick stand up, you know, but in um One FC, they're having these guys fighting and you know, they're it's really big in Asia, but it just has not caught on in America.

• 2:06:33Speaker 01

  No, and I I think that's also where where the problem is, I think, with them, but also with uh with Glory, they're just like pouring in money, pouring in money. At a certain moment, it's like, I also understand, like, the one that's investing into like, how much money am I gonna need to pour in this?

• 2:06:50Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:06:51Speaker 01

  Before it's gonna do something.

• 2:06:52Speaker 00

  You know, they asked me to be, they they asked me to be a part of that at one point in time. They wanted me to be like the Dana White of Glory. I'm like, I don't have that kind of time. I don't have that kind of time.

• 2:07:02Speaker 01

  Exactly, because if you were gonna say, I don't have that type of money, I'm not gonna look at you like, come on.

• 2:07:07Speaker 00

  It's the time, it's it would be the time.

• 2:07:09Speaker 01

  You're so busy, you're so.

• 2:07:10Speaker 00

  You would have, I know how hard Dana works.

• 2:07:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:07:13Speaker 00

  Dana works all day, every day. That guy's always doing something. He's always got deals going, he's always on the phone, he's always meetings and the headaches and canceled fights and this and that, trying to make things happen and

• 2:07:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:07:25Speaker 00

  Promotions and press conferences and it's like.

• 2:07:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, they want to change.

• 2:07:28Speaker 00

  I would never half-ass something like that and you can't do that. To be a promoter is a lot, that is a full-time fucking job.

• 2:07:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, you gotta go in there.

• 2:07:36Speaker 00

  And you know, Dana set the bar very, very high and he's the best ever, I think. He's the, I think he's the greatest promoter of all time. And to me, for me to do that, like, I can't, there's no way.

• 2:07:47Speaker 01

  No, that's why it's so cool that that he jumps into boxing now.

• 2:07:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:07:51Speaker 01

  That he's gonna give that.

• 2:07:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, very exciting.

• 2:07:53Speaker 01

  Try and, yeah.

• 2:07:54Speaker 00

  Well, I mean, people are, you know, always nervous when a new guy steps into sport, but I I think it's only better for boxing.

• 2:08:01Speaker 01

  Especially with his reputation.

• 2:08:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's only, yeah, with money, with uh, you know, like, and the amount of money they're throwing at the boxers, the MMA guys are like, hey.

• 2:08:09Speaker 01

  What are you doing?

• 2:08:10Speaker 00

  What the fuck? Like, where's that money for us?

• 2:08:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, they just still need to build up.

• 2:08:14Speaker 00

  It's all good for everybody. The more money there is in the sport, the more attention, the more excitement, it's better for everybody. This episode is brought to you by Visible. As fall hits, we enter another season of change. Time to shift gears, drop the dead weight and upgrade the wardrobe for the drop in temperature. But one thing that doesn't need to change, your phone. The smartest upgrade this season isn't a new phone, it's a better wireless plan. Switch to Visible, the ultimate wireless hack. You get unlimited 5G data and unlimited hotspot powered by Verizon for just twenty-five dollars a month. That means keeping the phone you already have, ditching your overpriced phone bill and pocketing some savings for yourself. All

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• 2:10:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, but how cool would that be if there would be a world? Where MMA fighters, UFC fighters would also be able to get into Zuffa and like, hey, you're, you're a good boxer. We see like, maybe there's something.

• 2:10:42Speaker 00

  It's possible that they would do that, but right now they're not concentrating on that.

• 2:10:45Speaker 01

  They first need to.

• 2:10:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:10:48Speaker 01

  Position themselves as, but like for the future.

• 2:10:51Speaker 00

  It would be, but then if you got a big star, like say if you take a guy like Max Holloway or something like that and he decides he wants a box for a while. That means he's not going to be able to fight in MMA fights. So that would like cut off their own access to him as an MMA fighter and he's a huge star.

• 2:11:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, but maybe then he attracts different, different eyeballs.

• 2:11:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, but to do it right, you gotta do it like, kinda like when Connor did it with Floyd. He took a whole year off and he was just boxing. I mean, he really, really concentrated on that.

• 2:11:19Speaker 01

  And you can't get like, go back into MMA again because then.

• 2:11:22Speaker 00

  Kinda messed him up.

• 2:11:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:11:23Speaker 00

  It kinda messed him up going back in MMA again. He didn't have the same momentum, it wasn't the same amount of training. Training lost with grappling and especially with kickboxing.

• 2:11:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:11:33Speaker 00

  You know, like, oh, you're only doing boxing, that training lost. Like you have to recalibrate your whole brain, it takes forever.

• 2:11:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. I was, I was just, it was just excitement.

• 2:11:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:11:43Speaker 01

  That's my excitement, put it out there, but.

• 2:11:45Speaker 00

  Listen, for some guys, it might be a good option, you know, and for some guys, especially after knee injuries.

• 2:11:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:11:51Speaker 00

  You know, where boxing is not as hard on the knees, you know, but you could say that, especially when, when it comes to grappling and, and leg kicks. Especially like those guys that throw those side kicks to the knee. Oh, oh my god.

• 2:12:02Speaker 01

  And those calf kicks.

• 2:12:03Speaker 00

  Yo, I know, crazy.

• 2:12:05Speaker 01

  Oh my god.

• 2:12:06Speaker 00

  Crazy.

• 2:12:06Speaker 01

  Oh, it's very, but then also after that, uh, after we, they saw that within, uh, UFC, within MMA, in kickboxing, they also start trying doing that.

• 2:12:16Speaker 00

  Isn't it nuts that it took forever for the calf kick to be a potent weapon like that?

• 2:12:20Speaker 01

  It's so dangerous. It's, it's also dangerous to, because if you, if you hit the shin, it's like, oh, it's the last kick you throw.

• 2:12:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:12:28Speaker 01

  But if you do it right.

• 2:12:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, if you do it right, like Alex Pereira destroys people's legs, destroys them.

• 2:12:34Speaker 01

  I don't even know how, how, it looks like he, he, he kicks him with the foot, with the side of the, it's not even really like a low kick or whatever.

• 2:12:42Speaker 00

  It's weird. He does it weird and he does it with no tell.

• 2:12:45Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:12:45Speaker 00

  No tell, no switching of the hips at all. He just throws the leg out there and it only takes a couple.

• 2:12:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:12:50Speaker 00

  There's a couple and then your leg's fucked. And then you see guys switch his dances.

• 2:12:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, then it's over.

• 2:12:55Speaker 00

  Funny.

• 2:12:55Speaker 01

  Then it's over.

• 2:12:56Speaker 00

  That kid that I was talking about in Japan, Yukioza, he's phenomenal at that, man. His calf kicks are insane. He's just in every exchange, every exchange, he's kicking the calves, inside and outside, Kyokushin guy.

• 2:13:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:13:09Speaker 00

  So it's, it's just all just hard style, inside, outside, inside, outside.

• 2:13:13Speaker 01

  What is, what is your opinion on that? Because me and my trainer, we were debating the, the, the calf kick because next to it being super effective. It's also a long, long-term injury when you get put out by calf kicks.

• 2:13:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:13:30Speaker 01

  Cause it, that injury stays there for quite a while.

• 2:13:33Speaker 00

  Oh yeah, it's brutal. It's brutal.

• 2:13:35Speaker 01

  So do you, do you think like it's a thing that should stay or do you think?

• 2:13:38Speaker 00

  Hundred percent. It's re, it's effective. I mean, it's really, listen, if you can, if you can knee bar a guy, you could heel hook a guy, you could rip his knee apart.

• 2:13:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:13:48Speaker 00

  You've gotta be able to calf kick.

• 2:13:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:13:49Speaker 00

  You know, this, it's, it's a weapon. And to, to take away that weapon when we know how effective it is, you got guys who are always, always used to standing heavy on that front leg. Now all of a sudden they can't do that anymore. Like Connor, perfect example, in the window between Connor, taking time off, fighting Floyd Mayweather, getting, fighting Khabib and then getting back in MMA. Then the calf kick came along. He never fought with, there was no calf kicks before. Dustin Poirier destroyed his leg.

• 2:14:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:14:19Speaker 00

  In that first round, by the time the second round was rolling around in their second fight, he was already wobbling on that front leg.

• 2:14:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:14:25Speaker 00

  Crazy.

• 2:14:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:14:26Speaker 00

  Crazy that it took so long for that one technique.

• 2:14:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, it's just a thing you, you see and like, hey, that's effective and everybody started doing it.

• 2:14:35Speaker 00

  But again, dangerous, like you said, you go, I mean, this how Chris Weidman broke his leg.

• 2:14:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:14:40Speaker 00

  You know, he threw a really hard low kick and he caught the knee, he caught the shin right below the knee and snapped his leg in half.

• 2:14:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:14:47Speaker 00

  If it gets checked and you've, and you've hit it the wrong way, especially if you hit it the low part of yours and the high part of his, where it's thick and dense.

• 2:14:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's the hardest part.

• 2:14:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, but it's so effective, it has to stay. The thing that bothers me more than that is.

• 2:15:02Speaker 01

  Okay, I'm hap, I'm happy, I like.

• 2:15:05Speaker 00

  The side kicks to the knee bother me more.

• 2:15:07Speaker 01

  Ooh, that's, yeah.

• 2:15:09Speaker 00

  Did you ever see Khalil Rowntree and Modestis Bokoskas?

• 2:15:11Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:15:11Speaker 00

  You ever see that? Oh, it's the worst one of all time.

• 2:15:14Speaker 01

  The one you see, you see the leg like.

• 2:15:16Speaker 00

  It turned sideways. He threw a side kick, caught him on the front leg and just turned his whole leg sideways and he screamed and the fight was over.

• 2:15:23Speaker 01

  Rip everything apart.

• 2:15:24Speaker 00

  Oh yeah, he had a surgery, had to have surgery after the fight, his leg was destroyed.

• 2:15:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:15:28Speaker 00

  When John Jones fought Thiago Santos, I think it was Thiago Santos, I think it was, um, yeah, Thiago Santos. He blew out both his legs. He'd have knee surgery on both legs after the fight. Both legs.

• 2:15:42Speaker 01

  That's crazy.

• 2:15:42Speaker 00

  Crazy, cause just throwing those oblique kicks and the side kick to the knee.

• 2:15:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:15:47Speaker 00

  Blew out both his knees.

• 2:15:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, that's a kick I don't like.

• 2:15:50Speaker 00

  When Ian Gary fought Shavkat, uh, Shavkat Rachmaninoff, who's a top welterweight guy, one of the top contenders. He hit him with an oblique kick in his left knee and his knee's been fucked ever since.

• 2:16:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:16:01Speaker 00

  And he had to have surgery, had a second surgery and he's still out.

• 2:16:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:16:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:16:05Speaker 01

  That's, that's quite a, quite a.

• 2:16:07Speaker 00

  That's what bothers me about that is that you might not ever recover. If your knee gets ripped to shreds, your meniscus gets torn apart, your ACL, MCL gets blown out. So this is the, this is Khalil Rowntree, watch this.

• 2:16:19Speaker 01

  Oh, oh.

• 2:16:22Speaker 00

  Oh yeah, watch it from this angle. Look at how, oh man, it screams. Horrible, horrible. I wonder about that one.

• 2:16:32Speaker 01

  Look at that, oh.

• 2:16:33Speaker 00

  Because I feel like that one maybe is too much.

• 2:16:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:16:36Speaker 00

  Because it's just like.

• 2:16:38Speaker 01

  It's just career, a career ending kicks.

• 2:16:40Speaker 00

  Career ender, yeah. I mean, if we're, I don't know, I'm torn because on one side, on one hand, it's like, it doesn't happen that often. And you should be able to defend against it and you, knowing it exists, you have to be able to defend against it. But the thing is, one kick could change and you're out for a year.

• 2:16:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:16:57Speaker 00

  And like, like we said, a fighter really only has X amount of years to compete.

• 2:17:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it's.

• 2:17:01Speaker 00

  And one whole year gone from one kick is kinda crazy.

• 2:17:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's, but by the way, it's pretty extraordinary how you do that, how you know all, all those things, that fights from, I don't know how long ago and you're just like.

• 2:17:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, but I don't remember a lot of other things.

• 2:17:17Speaker 00

  My memory is really, really good, but also kinda unreliable with some things.

• 2:17:21Speaker 01

  It's, it's just focused on.

• 2:17:23Speaker 00

  It's focused on the things I care about, which is, a lot of it is combat sports. But the, the, the knee one, that's the, the only one that really bothers me. That and, um, I think knees to the head to a grounded opponent, I don't think.

• 2:17:35Speaker 01

  No, that's not, no.

• 2:17:37Speaker 00

  You don't think they should be able to do that?

• 2:17:38Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:17:38Speaker 00

  I don't think you should be able to turtle up though.

• 2:17:40Speaker 01

  Even, even stomp on somebody's head, but they're not allowed to do that anymore, right?

• 2:17:44Speaker 00

  You can't stomp, but you can in Ryzen, Ryzen allows those guys to stomp.

• 2:17:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, like back in the day, they did, they did that.

• 2:17:49Speaker 00

  Yep, it used to be able to stomp and soccer kick. But to think when a guy shoots on your legs and just curls up in a fetal position, it just holds on, you shouldn't be able to do that. You should be able to knee that guy in the head, because he doesn't have to hold on to that. If your knee is free and he can knee you in the, you, you should have to adjust.

• 2:18:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:18:07Speaker 00

  That should, that's a, it's too legitimate of a technique.

• 2:18:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:18:11Speaker 00

  You know, it's, it's hard.

• 2:18:12Speaker 01

  It's just, yeah, if somebody's on the ground, they're like.

• 2:18:14Speaker 00

  The problem also is the cage versus the ring. Because in a ring, soccer kicks make more sense and knees to the head make more sense, cause you can move around and you can get away from it. Cause you could go under the, the rope, like if a knee's coming to your head, there's movement, whereas the cage, you're trapped right there. And I think that, that's an, an, uh, another element of the fight, that's an unnecessary element. I think maybe even what karate combat's doing might be the best way to do it.

• 2:18:44Speaker 01

  Those, those, yeah, what is it?

• 2:18:46Speaker 00

  It's like a bowl, yeah.

• 2:18:48Speaker 01

  It's, it looks nice.

• 2:18:49Speaker 00

  I think that might be the best way to do it. The only problem with that is when you get to the edge, you're stumbling because you're, you're.

• 2:18:55Speaker 01

  It's, it's like half, you fall over it and yeah.

• 2:18:58Speaker 00

  But, but learn how to adjust to that and that's better than a cage.

• 2:19:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:19:03Speaker 00

  Because a cage is just a fucking physical wall.

• 2:19:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:19:06Speaker 00

  So the thing about the ramp, the bowl, that shit doesn't help you get up at all.

• 2:19:10Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:19:11Speaker 00

  Like if somebody takes you down against that, that's, you're not, that doesn't help you.

• 2:19:15Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:19:15Speaker 00

  Where a wall fucking helps you and there's guys that are doing workouts now where they put their back up against a wall and they're doing kettlebell get ups. Where they're, they're.

• 2:19:25Speaker 01

  Just to feel like.

• 2:19:25Speaker 00

  Yes, they're lifting up heavy kettlebells and they're doing it in stages, getting up from the ground just to emulate that position. But it's a, it's, it's an element.

• 2:19:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that's where I feel like everything has, the ring has certain things, because I feel like if you do MMA in a ring and somebody shoots or whatever, then maybe they go through the ropes, they shoot.

• 2:19:46Speaker 00

  That's true too, right?

• 2:19:48Speaker 01

  So that's, that's dangerous, but and then you like you said.

• 2:19:51Speaker 00

  Like when Bernard Hopkins fought Joe Smith Jr. and he went through the ropes and fell and landed on his head.

• 2:19:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:19:56Speaker 00

  Crazy.

• 2:19:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, so.

• 2:19:57Speaker 00

  That's how the fight ended. It was like, there's, there's, but I think that was just shitty planning. I think they should have pads around the ring and they should, you know, in case someone fall, you shouldn't just hope they don't fall. Have some, or have a larger apron too.

• 2:20:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:20:09Speaker 00

  That's, you could, you could fix a lot with a much larger apron, where if a guy falls out, there's something around the edge of the ring. But I think a cage, the problem is in most people's eyes, UFC equals cage.

• 2:20:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:20:21Speaker 00

  Like you fight in a cage.

• 2:20:22Speaker 01

  And the mindset of it is pretty cool.

• 2:20:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:20:26Speaker 01

  Because you get locked up.

• 2:20:28Speaker 00

  You click.

• 2:20:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 2:20:29Speaker 00

  You put that bar down.

• 2:20:30Speaker 01

  Exactly, like you're not going nowhere.

• 2:20:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, there's something to be said for that.

• 2:20:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it, it has something, but, you know, I hear what you're saying, but that's like we, we just talked about, everything has.

• 2:20:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:20:42Speaker 01

  It's, it's pros and it's cons.

• 2:20:43Speaker 00

  Everything has its pros and its cons and everything is exciting in its own way. Like boxing on its own, like there's elements of boxing that you would not see if they were allowed to do leg kicks and elbows and all that. So there's something beautiful about just pure elite boxing.

• 2:21:00Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 2:21:00Speaker 00

  And there's something pure about elite kickboxing and then there's something pure about elite Muay Thai.

• 2:21:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:21:06Speaker 00

  And then there's something pure about MMA, about watching it all together. And, and, and Jiu Jitsu as well. See, that's the other thing, the UFC's doing UFC Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. So they have these big UFC Jiu Jitsu matches.

• 2:21:17Speaker 01

  Oh really?

• 2:21:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, so like.

• 2:21:19Speaker 01

  Cool.

• 2:21:19Speaker 00

  Kickboxing.

• 2:21:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, let's try.

• 2:21:21Speaker 00

  It's right there, it's right there, guys. I, I keep sending Dana White fights, I send him fights, like, cause I'm trying to get him to do this. I'm like, you should get involved in this. I think he's too busy.

• 2:21:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:21:32Speaker 00

  He's too busy, he's also got that slap fight shit, so he's doing that.

• 2:21:35Speaker 01

  That's so crazy, yeah. It's fun to watch, but it's like, oh my god.

• 2:21:41Speaker 00

  It's fun.

• 2:21:42Speaker 01

  It's like, well, why just stand there and just take a punch? I just like, try to move around and just slip and slide. You know, you just stand there.

• 2:21:49Speaker 00

  With your hands behind your back, holding on to a thing? Just take it on the face, like, fuck that.

• 2:21:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're a pretty, you're a pretty big animal if you do that. You're, yeah. No, but that's why, for me, that like now experiencing boxing, I really, I can really genuinely say that I see boxing as an art.

• 2:22:10Speaker 00

  Oh, for sure.

• 2:22:11Speaker 01

  And kickboxing is, it's been my life. It's brought me everything, so it's, it's so much fun, but it's, it's more intense, it's more brutal, and it's quick. It's like the pace is so fast and in the, I had championship fights with just five rounds.

• 2:22:28Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:22:29Speaker 01

  So if you lose one round, you're like, oh! And now, it's like, like I said, it's, it's an art. You have 12 rounds. And I saw the, the Bivol-Berbiya fight, and then for the first, so many rounds, Berbiya was so much better, and then later in the round, and then Bivol still got the, got the win, like, wow, how cool is that?

• 2:22:50Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:22:50Speaker 01

  Well, the fir-, if you look at the fight, you think, oh, this is not gonna go well, and then.

• 2:22:55Speaker 00

  And then he adjusts.

• 2:22:56Speaker 01

  He adjusts and it changes, so it's, like I said, I, I really feel like boxing is so much of an art, and you have 12 rounds to paint your masterpiece.

• 2:23:04Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 2:23:05Speaker 01

  So, I know, it's.

• 2:23:06Speaker 00

  And if you appreciate that art form, if you really understand it and appreciate it, it's beautiful to watch. Like, it's beautiful to watch, like Floyd, when he was in his prime.

• 2:23:14Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 2:23:15Speaker 00

  Where barely would get hit, and Floyd, unlike anybody else, was standing right in front of everybody. He was barely getting hit, he was standing right there.

• 2:23:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:23:23Speaker 00

  He wasn't running away and moving around, he was right in front of guys that couldn't hit him. Extraordinary.

• 2:23:28Speaker 01

  And that's what, what I also liked, uh, or still like about Canelo, because after that fight, you saw the whole transition Canelo made, and he took, I think, I, I truly believe that he took so much from that fight with, uh, with Mayweather, because then he started applying it himself.

• 2:23:46Speaker 00

  Unquestionably.

• 2:23:47Speaker 01

  And like, pop, pop, pop, he missing it, like, oh, I love that.

• 2:23:49Speaker 00

  Yes, unquestionably, yeah, his head movement got much better after that fight. I mean, that's the thing that happens when you fight the elite, you get, Daniel Cormier always says, you get the rub. Like, you fight an elite guy, win, lose, or draw, you get the rub, you like, you, some of it rubs off on you.

• 2:24:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 2:24:06Speaker 00

  So that's why I'm excited to see you fight again, too.

• 2:24:09Speaker 01

  I'm, I'm, I'm so excited to, to, to compete again, but let's, let's see who it's gonna be.

• 2:24:14Speaker 00

  Well, let's hope this podcast gets the wheels turning.

• 2:24:17Speaker 01

  We planted, we planted some seeds.

• 2:24:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, maybe His Excellency will, will hear this and he'll decide that it's time to go, and.

• 2:24:25Speaker 01

  I'll, I'll, I'll call you right after, yo, Joe. It happened, thanks, we did it.

• 2:24:29Speaker 00

  That would be, make me very happy if we somehow or another motivated them to get back to the negotiation table, because I, yeah.

• 2:24:37Speaker 01

  But just, but just, let's, let's make an agreement now, let's just make sure you're gonna be there then.

• 2:24:41Speaker 00

  What was the last conversation you guys had about it?

• 2:24:44Speaker 01

  Uh, I think, a week, a week ago, week and a half ago, but it was, it was more, more of a general conversation. Hey, we're looking at.

• 2:24:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:24:54Speaker 01

  What's next? So.

• 2:24:56Speaker 00

  And what did you say to them? Did you say, rematch?

• 2:24:59Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 2:25:00Speaker 00

  And what did they say?

• 2:25:01Speaker 01

  Like, ah, yeah, but, yeah, you need to, you need two parties for that. Said, I know, make it happen.

• 2:25:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, you gotta roll up to Usik's house with the Brink's truck. Just back that thing up. Beep, beep, beep.

• 2:25:17Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 2:25:18Speaker 00

  Get the armed guards, open the door, show them all the gold.

• 2:25:22Speaker 01

  And then, and then my name and my face on it, like. Ah, okay. But, put it in first.

• 2:25:30Speaker 00

  I think that's the fight, and I hope you get it, I really do. But, uh, either way, your, your performance was extraordinary, and you've had a fucking incredible career, man. You should be proud.

• 2:25:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, I am, super thankful.

• 2:25:43Speaker 00

  Incredible career in kickboxing, greatest heavyweight kickboxer of all time, for sure.

• 2:25:47Speaker 01

  Thank you so much, I really appreciate that, and, uh, it's not just for me being here, and sitting here now, because I've been seeing you and hearing you talk about it for, yeah, for years already, so, like I said, it is, it really, really, really means the world coming from you, because you're an expert, you, you look everything, you look at everything, you see everything, the different organizations, so you know where to place certain guys, and from history and from now, so, uh, it means the world, thank you so much.

• 2:26:14Speaker 00

  My pleasure, brother, it's honor, an honor to have you here.

• 2:26:17Speaker 01

  And again, thank you so much again for, for being here, so it's, uh, it's been a while, but we're back.

• 2:26:22Speaker 00

  Well, I had to reach out after the fight, I was like, oh my god, we gotta do this, we gotta talk.

• 2:26:26Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 2:26:27Speaker 00

  So I was like, holy shit, man, I, I reached out immediately, I was like, god, the fuck, you had it, oh!

• 2:26:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I saw, I saw the, the episode you guys did about it, you were talking about it, I was like, oh my god, I know!

• 2:26:42Speaker 00

  It was incredible, but, listen, brother, congratulations on everything, and I really, really, really hope you get that rematch.

• 2:26:48Speaker 01

  Good seeing you, brother.

• 2:26:48Speaker 00

  Good seeing you too, sir. Thank you very much, man.

• 2:26:50Speaker 01

  Thanks, sir.

• 2:26:51Speaker 00

  Thank you, everybody, bye.