#2535 - Andrew Wilson

Andrew Wilson has participated in thousands of debates on political, cultural, and religious topics. He hosts "The Crucible" and owns its associated online training program, Debate University.www.youtube.com/@The_Crucible www.rumble.com/c/TheCrucible www.thecrucible.video www.debateuniversity.com Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan. Use code ROGAN at https://BlueChew.com to get 10% OFF + Free Overnight Shipping on your first order. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The Joe Rogan Experience.

• 0:05Speaker 01

  Training by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day. Andrew, good to see you.

• 0:14Speaker 02

  You too, Joe. How you been?

• 0:15Speaker 01

  Great, great, great. We're just talking about peace of mind and dealing with kooks. Is there anybody who argues online more than you do? You might be the number one guy who I see in clips, like constantly getting in arguments with people online.

• 0:29Speaker 02

  I'm not sure that there is anybody who takes on more debates yearly, high and low profile than I do.

• 0:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, even casual ones.

• 0:37Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 0:38Speaker 01

  It's like you're always sparring. It's like you're always, you know, you're always having scrimmages.

• 0:42Speaker 02

  Well, I think that that keeps you sharp.

• 0:44Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 0:45Speaker 02

  Keeps you sharp if you're... So, I also have this rule that, you know, there's like the clout game online, right? All these people want to play the clout game.

• 0:54Speaker 01

  What is exactly the clout game?

• 0:57Speaker 02

  Ah, it's like, you don't have a big enough follower account for me to respond to you. You don't have a big enough audience for me to discuss things with you, you know, things like that. And it's like, I hate that.

• 1:08Speaker 01

  That seems pretty silly.

• 1:10Speaker 02

  It is silly. And some of the best debates I've ever had with guys who had like four followers on X, and they're like, "Let's get in the sex space and talk." And I'll hop in there with them, and I'm like, an hour later, I go, "Man, that guy had a lot of good stuff to say."

• 1:23Speaker 01

  A lot of people out there. And oftentimes, those are the ones who don't have a lot of followers, because they're not sucked into the social media web. They're just out there thinking and doing things and living their life. There are a lot of fucking interesting people out there that you never hear from, and a lot of not interesting people that you hear from constantly.

• 1:42Speaker 02

  All the time.

• 1:43Speaker 01

  It's like the politician thing, you know? It's like, we were talking about that the other day. Like, there's this lady that's running for, God, something, she running for governor of Wisconsin? Is that what it is? And she was just talking about how Thanksgiving hurts people.

• 2:01Speaker 02

  What?

• 2:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know her background. I think it's the same lady, at one point in time, she was in a mental institution.

• 2:10Speaker 02

  Why? Does this not shock me?

• 2:12Speaker 01

  Doesn't shock me. But this was the point, we were saying, nobody wants to be the fucking governor. And the people that do, there's a high percentage of kooks.

• 2:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, power attracts strange people. Sometimes it attracts good people.

• 2:25Speaker 01

  Yes, occasionally.

• 2:26Speaker 02

  But often, but often those are the people who go in and they want to change it. Like, the idea that they have is, "Look, I'm trying to run for the right reasons, because I actually want to change how this works." But they're few and far between.

• 2:38Speaker 01

  And they get killed.

• 2:39Speaker 02

  A lot of them get killed, or they get run off. A lot of them just get involved in, like, their normal day-to-day life, you know, from 20 years prior. Now, suddenly, that's coming up, you know, and they have to defend themselves against criticisms that they never would have believed that they would have to defend themselves from.

• 2:59Speaker 01

  Right, yeah.

• 3:00Speaker 02

  And so, character assassination, I think, takes a lot of the good actors out. They don't want to deal with a character assassination.

• 3:06Speaker 01

  Well, it seems like they want total compliance, on both sides, on both parties. Total compliance with the party, and if they think that you're going to be some outsider rebel that's going to take over, they're, "Fuck you."

• 3:18Speaker 02

  Well, you kind of, I think you kind of have to have that a little bit, though, because if you got universal suffrage, necessarily, everything converges into a two-party system. So, as suffrage expanded throughout history, you saw the emergence of parties right alongside of it, as more people became enfranchised to vote.

• 3:36Speaker 01

  So, you think if women couldn't vote, there wouldn't be parties?

• 3:39Speaker 02

  There probably would still be parties. It'd probably still be a two-party system. It's just that, how it works is that if we continuously expand suffrage, let's just say, we expand it to another group of men. Now, those men have some special interests, right? So, if it's not just property owners, let's say it's now, you know, people who live in a city. Well, they want a levy passed so that their kids can go to school, right? So, they pass it on the property owners. Now, they can vote to hand themselves money. So, now you have a wedge issue. And so, you'll see parties start to form around these wedge issues. And the more you have universal suffrage, the more you end up with party politics, until you have a convergence of two. And usually, it's along a certain wedge issue.

• 4:22Speaker 02

  So, the only way, in a dialectic where you have two parties, Democrat and Republican, to get your legislation passed, is to be able to outvote the other side, right? So, you kind of have to have them all in line, or else.

• 4:37Speaker 01

  That makes sense. And there's no room in this country at the current point in time for another party. No one would accept it. We think about other parties like they're a goof. The Green Party, like, that's a protest vote, you know?

• 4:52Speaker 02

  Libertarian parties, too.

• 4:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've done that. I've done a few protest votes back in my day.

• 4:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, I talked with, I was arguing with Rex Jones the other day, it's Alex Jones's kid, about this. And I told him, I'm like, "Look, you don't have a prayer in starting a third party in time for midterms and then the presidential election that's coming up in just a couple short years. You're not going to be able to replace this system. You're not going to be able to do that."

• 5:18Speaker 01

  They're too, their roots go too deep. They're too intertwined in power and influence.

• 5:23Speaker 02

  Like, think about the infrastructure. Billions of dollars in NGO funding, all this outreach program. Just to get on a ballot in a state is often a multimillion-dollar thing, that you need to have a party apparatus behind.

• 5:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's kind of nuts, right? Multimillion dollars to spend to get a job that pays you $170,000.

• 5:46Speaker 02

  Uh-huh.

• 5:48Speaker 01

  What a, you think that fucking student loans are a scam. That's a crazy scam.

• 5:56Speaker 02

  Well, I love when these guys come in for their $100,000-a-year job, and then they leave, and they have $25 million in the bank, you know?

• 6:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, that happens often. Wonder what happens? Wonder where you get all that money?

• 6:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:09Speaker 01

  How about the Ilhan Omar thing?

• 6:10Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, she's great.

• 6:12Speaker 01

  That one's wild. Like, they estimated her net worth somewhere, like, it was millions, like, 30 million or something crazy? And then she said it was a error, and that it was actually like, a lot less than that, like, $100,000 or something, like, really reasonable?

• 6:29Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 6:30Speaker 01

  Like, can you imagine if your accountant was so bad? You're like, "Hey, Mike, how much money am I worth?" And he's like, "I think you're worth 30 million." And you're like, "Fuck, yeah, dude. I'm thinking about buying a Corvette."

• 6:43Speaker 02

  And you got, and you got $3,000 in the bank.

• 6:47Speaker 01

  And then you call Mike the next day, and you say, "So, 30 million?" He goes, "Actually, it was an error. You're worth about 100 grand." And you're like, "Hey, Mike, I'm going to kill you, because you stole 30 million dollars from me. That doesn't make any sense."

• 7:03Speaker 02

  100%. And do you think, do you think maybe she, like, strategically started moving some things with her accountant?

• 7:08Speaker 01

  Well, how about there was a vineyard that they owned that never made a bottle of wine?

• 7:11Speaker 02

  Sounds right.

• 7:12Speaker 01

  Is that the case? Is that the case with one of those businesses that closed down? Listen, and pick on her. It's, if you look at the Republicans and the Democrats when it comes to insider trading, it's fucking everybody. It's red, blue, red, blue, red, blue. It is, this is not a one-party thing. This is why it's never going to stop. They're both dipping their toes in. They're both having fun.

• 7:35Speaker 02

  You basically always have the expectation of corruption. So, even if you put your candidates in, so you're trying to get something out of that, right? Some issue that you're trying to push forward, you almost baked into the system, have to accept a certain amount of corruption's going to come out of that. So, like, let me give you a really good example of that, a key wedge issue, like abortion. So, you've got Christians who are just adamant, right? Just got to stop. Will they accept, if it's the case that candidates are really moving the post on that, if they're really moving legislation against abortion? Do you think that they would turn a blind eye to a little bit of corruption? Probably.

• 8:12Speaker 01

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• 10:04Speaker 01

  This episode is brought to you by Squarespace. If you're thinking about building a website, you should try Squarespace. I know, because I use it. That's right, joe Rogan dot com is powered by Squarespace. It has all the features that you need to create a standout website, like an AI-enhanced website builder, SEO optimization tools, and seamless checkouts with mobile pay links. Head to Squarespace dot com slash Rogan for a free trial. And when you are ready to launch, use the offer code ROGAN to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Yeah, there's definitely some compromises that get made, both on your morals and the

• 10:47Speaker 01

  way you view financial issues and all kinds of things. I mean, it's never... Especially there's only two parties, like you're with us or against us.

• 10:56Speaker 02

  Has to be that way.

• 10:56Speaker 01

  It's us and them, it's good and evil, that's it. In this country, that's really how people look at it, on both sides, it's good versus evil.

• 11:04Speaker 02

  But you have an alternative there, that's even worse, or can at least sometimes be worse. So let's go to like, the UK or Canada, or places like this where they do round voting.

• 11:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:13Speaker 02

  You have more than two parties, that's true. But do you really want your president to be elected with 10% of the vote?

• 11:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 11:19Speaker 02

  15% of the vote? You want your politicians to be put in with 9% of the vote?

• 11:23Speaker 01

  Oy.

• 11:24Speaker 02

  Because that can happen.

• 11:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's crazy.

• 11:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, between these rounds, and so you think about it and you go, this two-party system sucks. But then you look at other places that have multiple parties, and they do their rounds of voting, and you're like, wait. See, you could get elected with only 14% of the, so everybody else hates you.

• 11:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. There's the weird argument of the benevolent dictator, I'm sure you've heard this argument, but that a society is best run by benevolent dictator. Someone who really, truly has ultimate power but actually cares. A good person that cares about the people. That really just wants things to be reasonable, and have a working meritocracy, and have a working economy, and have working education. And everything work correctly, and weed out all of the fraud and corruption, because he's a king. And he could just, like-

• 12:10Speaker 02

  He can just do it.

• 12:11Speaker 01

  Do it, whatever the fuck you want, you know, like. Like, I have only been to Dubai one time, because we had a UFC over there, and I had to go to the weigh-ins. The weigh-ins were in Dubai. Saw a lot of fucking Ferraris and Lamborghinis in 10 minutes, but from what I hear, it's the most safe place on earth, like, literally, like-

• 12:31Speaker 02

  Like Romania under Vlad?

• 12:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. Like, what did you say?

• 12:34Speaker 02

  Like Romania under Vlad the Impaler?

• 12:36Speaker 01

  I don't think it's that bad.

• 12:37Speaker 02

  How can you, how can you hang gold in the street? And he's, "Look around." There's a bunch of people impaled everywhere.

• 12:43Speaker 01

  He would do them in designs. He would do them in geometric patterns, so you would realize he's being creative with impaling people.

• 12:51Speaker 02

  He wasn't messing around.

• 12:52Speaker 01

  Oh, no, no, no. You know the story?

• 12:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:54Speaker 01

  He was kidnapped when he was a small boy. Woo, a lot to that guy.

• 13:00Speaker 02

  And his brother.

• 13:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:01Speaker 02

  And their, you know, inter-brother conflict that they had for years, and how he got power, lost power, yeah, there's a there's a tale to be told about Vlad the Impaler, for sure. But, probably a pretty safe place to live.

• 13:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, Dubai, like, if they catch you with a bag of weed, you're going to jail for the rest of your life, or they'll kill you.

• 13:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, you're done.

• 13:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, they have crazy laws. There was one guy, I think it was Dubai, who, I think he had like marijuana seeds in the sole of his shoes, or something like that. Like, he had stepped on a marijuana seed, maybe in his apartment.

• 13:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:44Speaker 01

  And he was, didn't have any drugs on him, nothing, and they put him in jail for a long time, man. I forget, this was a few years back, but it was a crazy case. There was another lady who got arrested, I forget what happened, but she, lady or a guy, tested positive for poppy, because she had poppy seed bagel. I don't know if you know this, but if you're testing for drugs, and you eat a poppy seed bagel, you could pop for heroin.

• 14:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I've heard that. But doesn't, with modern tests, isn't it a little bit better now?

• 14:15Speaker 01

  I hope so. I don't know. 2008, this is a British traveler in Dubai was stopped at the airport, lab found 0.003 grams of cannabis in his shoe sole. Holy fuck.

• 14:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's crazy.

• 14:29Speaker 01

  That's crazy. He received a mandatory four-year sentence, under the UAE's strict drug laws. Though he was later released early. How early's early?

• 14:40Speaker 02

  So the British government came in and tried to barter him out of there, I'm guessing?

• 14:44Speaker 01

  I guess, or, the whole world must have been so outraged. I mean, at a certain point in time, they have to say, we run the risk of never having tourists visit us again. And Dubai's a very tourist-central place.

• 14:56Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 14:57Speaker 01

  But I have a friend who moved over there, a while back, he moved back to America recently. But he moved over there, and he was, he was like, dude, it's just safe for me. You know, I don't worry if I go out, you know, someone's gonna, like, he's a big black guy. He's like, I don't want to get shot. He goes, I worry if I go out, he goes, "Over here, there's nothing like that, there's no crime." He goes, "Everything's nice, everything's clean, you can leave a Rolex on the street, they'll pick it up and turn it into the cops." Like, nobody steals nothing over there.

• 15:24Speaker 02

  But there's a trade-off for that, right?

• 15:27Speaker 01

  Let me show you my geometric patterns of dead people on spikes.

• 15:31Speaker 02

  Everywhere on spikes, who we impaled from their buttocks through their throats.

• 15:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, and they don't die immediately.

• 15:37Speaker 02

  No, they wiggle for a while.

• 15:38Speaker 01

  I don't think they do that in Dubai, but they let you know. Yeah, you're not fucking around, there's no fucking around. I saw some lady getting in a screaming match, she was trying to do the thing that a lot of people do in America, at the airport. And she got in a screaming thing with the lady at the counter, and they're like, "Not today."

• 15:57Speaker 02

  Not happening.

• 15:58Speaker 01

  They just come over and fucking cuff you up and take you away. Like, you can't, you can't do that there. You can't, like, you can't Spirit Airlines, you know?

• 16:07Speaker 02

  Do you prefer that? Would you prefer that society?

• 16:10Speaker 01

  I don't think people should be able to just fucking scream and yell at people that work behind counters. I don't think that's productive. I don't think smacking them in the head because they can't get you a flight, we've all seen that kind of shit. There should be zero tolerance for that kind of violence.

• 16:25Speaker 02

  But what if we tweaked it a different way?

• 16:26Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 16:27Speaker 02

  Okay, so what if instead of bringing in like, some crazy Sharia in order to make sure that that happens, you brought back dueling? Like, wouldn't dueling solve like, 95% of this?

• 16:38Speaker 01

  Dueling requires people to wait before they turn around and shoot. That, I'm not trusting a guy who wants to kill me to not jump the gun.

• 16:47Speaker 02

  But that depends on the rules, right? Like, you could adjust the rules a little bit. You could adjust the rules, but it's like, if you could, if you could call somebody out for smirching you, or something like this, right? It's like, I think people would probably be a lot more polite, wouldn't they?

• 17:01Speaker 01

  They probably would, I think there's probably a better way than shooting each other in the street.

• 17:05Speaker 02

  Probably, probably, but there's probably a better way than-

• 17:08Speaker 01

  Even like fistfights. Like, there's a better way than that, too, you don't have to fistfight, like, come on. But, you know, there's certainly something to be said for a society that is more orderly, and people follow the rules, and as long as the rules make sense. And these people are friendly and kind, and they make, for good community members.

• 17:31Speaker 02

  And they're not putting up with mentally ill lunatics, just walking around causing problems everywhere, which is what American society is now dealing with.

• 17:38Speaker 01

  Well, did you see what just happened in Wisconsin, where they had the, they had their own autonomous zone?

• 17:43Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 17:44Speaker 01

  It just got broken up today by the cops.

• 17:46Speaker 02

  I didn't see it got broken up.

• 17:47Speaker 01

  It got broken up today, yeah, see if you can find it, Jamie. There was video footage, just fucking army of cops came in, arrested everybody's, spray paint all of the streets and garbage everywhere.

• 17:58Speaker 02

  People just get to declare autonomous zones on public, like, what is? Remember Chaz and Chop?

• 18:03Speaker 01

  Yes, I remember.

• 18:05Speaker 02

  Oh, we have a, we've just declared this an autonomous zone, sorry.

• 18:09Speaker 01

  Madison officials clear Willie Street encampment. Police officers arrest protesters who resist at Cory Ruiz memorial site. I do not know this Cory Ruiz story.

• 18:20Speaker 02

  Uh, the Cory Ruiz memorial, so was it something ICE-related, perhaps?

• 18:25Speaker 01

  I think that's what this is, right? Is that what this is, Jamie?

• 18:31Speaker 01

  Um, did something happen? Something happened, someone got shot, right? You don't know about it either? See, that's the problem, there's so many fucking things in the news, that it's impossible, unless you're a maniac, and you're just online all day. It's impossible to know exactly what's going on. You take a couple days off and smell the roses, and you get back online, "How come you haven't commented on?" I go, "What is it? I don't even know what you're talking about."

• 18:54Speaker 02

  You gotta catch up for four days for one day.

• 18:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. Also, like, what, hot take? Maybe you shouldn't have a hot take on everything. Maybe some things you need to like, let it play out in the news, like, let people dissect it.

• 19:06Speaker 02

  See, now that, I wish that that was a message that more people got. That the idea that you don't have to rush immediately out there to tell everybody, "Your latest hottest take", which is oftentimes, by the way, stupid.

• 19:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, Alan Page.

• 19:21Speaker 02

  Stupid take, because you have no information, right? But you're gonna rush out there, you're gonna get those views and clicks quick, but then you're married to that take?

• 19:29Speaker 01

  Exactly, yeah, and unless you come back and make another video, or make another take and explain why you fucked it up. But I think that there's, um, there's something to be said for, uh, like, there's a lot of stories that are in the news, like, I don't fucking know exactly what happened there. Like, let's let this one play out a little bit. Like, this one seems weird. Like, if I come out with a hot, like, who fucking knows what's really going on with 15, like, there's so many different stories in the news, it's impossible. Was that, Jamie?

• 20:00Speaker 03

  I didn't find the details, but it is a police killing, it says. Officer involved shooting of Cory Ruiz. And that's, I don't, it doesn't, I'm looking for evidence and video, I didn't check Twitter or anything yet.

• 20:12Speaker 01

  Um, put it into perplexity, ask perplexity, what is the controversy about the killing of Cory Ruiz?

• 20:19Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 20:22Speaker 01

  You can't, you can't be, this, we're not designed to get all the bad news of eight billion people. We're just not designed for that. That's not a normal thing for a person to absorb.

• 20:32Speaker 02

  It's also driving a lot of people crazy.

• 20:34Speaker 01

  Crazy.

• 20:35Speaker 02

  Driving them, driving them to insanity. They think, they, they start to see conspiracy everywhere. They start to see, um, you know, plots of interest where there aren't any.

• 20:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 20:46Speaker 02

  It starts to actually drive people mad because they can't disassociate between the fact that there is sensationalism and then there's reality and the way that people think, they think in frames. And so if you think in a conspiratorial frame, you're usually taking tangential things and piecing them together that don't belong.

• 21:05Speaker 01

  Right.

• 21:06Speaker 02

  But then if you think in an autistic frame, as my friend Paul, Paul would say, if you think in an autistic frame, you're gonna hone down so deep on one detail that you miss the entirety of the picture.

• 21:18Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 21:18Speaker 02

  Right? So you have to have an idea between these two things, right? It's like, conspiracies exist, we know this. Many of them exist. There's many of them I can state off the top of my head, like MKUltra. That was a conspiracy that existed.

• 21:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:31Speaker 02

  Right? There's, but there's also a lot that don't.

• 21:34Speaker 01

  Right.

• 21:34Speaker 02

  And so how do you disassociate between the two?

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• 22:53Speaker 02

  Flooding the zone.

• 22:54Speaker 01

  Yes. This is a common strategy. What, what was it, Jamie? You pulled it up? Uh, controversy centers on whether Madison police needed to use deadly force against 38-year-old Cory Ruiz, a black man during a July 2026 arrest and on the lack of body camera footage. Oh. Conflicting narratives about the threat he posed, posed and the broader concerns about racialized policing. Police responded reports of a man allegedly looking into parked vehicles and stealing bicycles. During the attempted arrest by four officers, a taser was deployed but reportedly failed. Police say Ruiz pulled a knife and injured an officer, after which that officer shot and killed him. Cell phone video recorded by a bystander shows part of the struggle and shooting,

• 23:39Speaker 01

  and quickly went viral, triggering protests and public outcry. Use of deadly force versus alternatives. Community members and Ruiz's family questioned why lethal force was used when multiple officers were already restraining him on the ground and a taser had been deployed, arguing that he did not deserve to be shot to death in the street. Lack of body cameras, none of the officers involved were wearing body worn cameras, so the only visual recording is bystander video which fuels distrust and demands for more accountability and measures and technology. We need more flock cameras. Conflicting narratives about threat. Police emphasized that Ruiz stabbed or injured an officer with a knife, framing the shooting as a response to an immediate threat.

• 24:21Speaker 01

  Critics and loved ones questioned whether the threat justified shooting a restrained man and whether de-escalation was properly used. Well, first of all, if he really did stab a police officer, if he's stabbing a police officer, like they are supposed to shoot him, that is, you, you can't take, you can't say, someone's stabbing me, I hope they're only hurting me.

• 24:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, right, or how do you assess the amount of force that you can use back when someone's stabbing you? I think that that's responding with lethal force.

• 24:52Speaker 01

  What did you say, Jamie?

• 24:52Speaker 03

  Probably find the video.

• 24:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, let's find the video. But it's also, um, how big is this guy? If he's got all these people, and are these like a bunch of like shitty, untrained police officers who don't know any martial arts? When you say he's restrained, like how restrained was he? You know what I mean? Like, if you've got two dudes that are, uh, built like Tony Hinchcliffe and they're trying to hold me back from fucking somebody up.

• 25:15Speaker 02

  It's not gonna do nothing.

• 25:15Speaker 01

  That, you know what I mean?

• 25:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:17Speaker 01

  It's like, how big is this guy? What, what happened? Was he the one that was stealing things or was he wrongly accused? Does he have a record? Is he a violent person? I don't know anything. Is he a complete innocent bystander? This is the video? Video contains graphic content. Okay.

• 25:39Speaker 01

  That's it?

• 25:39Speaker 03

  That's all that one showed.

• 25:41Speaker 01

  So there's probably multiple videos?

• 25:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. The thing about the tasers is, it's fucking weird, man. Tasers on some people, they lock them up and they fucking, and they fall down. I've seen guys just scream and rip those things off their chest like it's nothing.

• 26:00Speaker 02

  Well, sometimes those probes don't penetrate either, right?

• 26:02Speaker 01

  Right. I think some of those tasers are bunk, too.

• 26:05Speaker 02

  Hundred percent.

• 26:06Speaker 01

  Some of the tasers are just shit equipment. I mean, that's the only thing that makes sense. So these guys.

• 26:11Speaker 02

  Did you ever play with one of the handhelds when you were a kid?

• 26:13Speaker 01

  No.

• 26:14Speaker 02

  Somebody always had a handheld somewhere.

• 26:16Speaker 01

  No, I never did. I did touch an electric fence, though, once.

• 26:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:20Speaker 01

  Holy fuck.

• 26:20Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, that'll, that'll make your teeth clatter.

• 26:22Speaker 01

  Holy fuck, dude.

• 26:26Speaker 02

  Just letting go, that's hard.

• 26:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:32Speaker 01

  Disturbing video. Okay. Oh, there's sound on it?

• 26:36Speaker 03

  I mean, there's yelling.

• 26:39Speaker 01

  Put it in your earphones, so we can hear the sound.

• 26:42Speaker 03

  There's the taser.

• 26:44Speaker 01

  Oh, okay. Hold on, man. Back up. Back up.

• 26:49Speaker 03

  What was he reaching for on the ground?

• 26:50Speaker 01

  Is that the girl, the woman shoots him?

• 26:52Speaker 03

  Taser.

• 26:59Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 27:00Speaker 03

  I can't tell who shot the gun, but that was.

• 27:03Speaker 01

  Okay. That's crazy.

• 27:10Speaker 01

  That does not look justified. That looks like they had control of him. Unless he had a knife and was stabbing people. But even if he was stabbing, like, how much control do they have on him before she starts shooting him?

• 27:23Speaker 02

  Was it the chick who shot him?

• 27:24Speaker 01

  Yes. Look, see, she backs away, watch.

• 27:29Speaker 01

  They tase him, they get him to the ground, and she shoots him while they've got him down on the ground.

• 27:34Speaker 02

  Female cops.

• 27:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's not good.

• 27:39Speaker 01

  That's crazy. Oh. I, again, I don't know what happened. I don't know if he stabbed one of them, if he really did have a knife and was stabbing them, but it seems like they had him restrained.

• 27:50Speaker 03

  It looks like that's the guy who shot him, I can't tell.

• 27:52Speaker 01

  But that lady stands back and extends her arms with a gun.

• 27:55Speaker 03

  Watch this guy right there.

• 27:56Speaker 01

  Oh, you're right.

• 27:58Speaker 02

  It looked like he shot him.

• 27:59Speaker 01

  Oh, it's the guy shoots him.

• 28:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, she had, I think she had the taser.

• 28:02Speaker 01

  She was shooting him with a taser. Oh. Let me see that again?

• 28:09Speaker 01

  What?

• 28:14Speaker 01

  God, it's hard to tell. Is it, so it's the guy in the back?

• 28:18Speaker 02

  I think it's the guy in the front. So if you, the dude in the back, you see the guy right next to you, that guy.

• 28:22Speaker 01

  That guy shoots him?

• 28:23Speaker 02

  It looks like it, I'm not sure.

• 28:25Speaker 03

  That's really close, too.

• 28:26Speaker 01

  God, it seems like, oh, oh, yeah.

• 28:29Speaker 02

  The second the shots stop, he puts his hand, his gun back.

• 28:32Speaker 01

  Right.

• 28:33Speaker 02

  Makes me think maybe it was him.

• 28:34Speaker 01

  Yes. Fuck, man.

• 28:40Speaker 01

  That does not look good.

• 28:44Speaker 01

  That's not a good one.

• 28:46Speaker 02

  No.

• 28:46Speaker 01

  No.

• 28:48Speaker 02

  No, doesn't look right.

• 28:49Speaker 01

  No.

• 28:50Speaker 02

  That means you have to give us your hot take now, Joe.

• 28:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's my hot take.

• 28:54Speaker 02

  So he can run to Twitter with it.

• 28:56Speaker 01

  I need to know, like, did he actually stab one of them?

• 28:58Speaker 03

  So then it says, during a press conference, uh, two of the cops were injured in the altercation. Police said the suspect allegedly pulled out a fixed blade knife, to which an officer pulled out a taser. Same officer shot him with a gun.

• 29:13Speaker 01

  Okay. That's different. So if he really pulled out a knife and was trying to stab them, and they had him on the ground, and they couldn't totally get control of him, and that guy just decides, he stabbed me, I'm gonna shoot him. That's a different thing.

• 29:25Speaker 02

  I agree.

• 29:26Speaker 01

  That's different.

• 29:28Speaker 02

  Also, we didn't have the front view.

• 29:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 29:31Speaker 02

  We see the view from the back.

• 29:32Speaker 01

  Well, it's very blurry. The whole thing, we didn't even know who shot, we thought the lady shot him. It's hard to tell what the fuck is going on. You can't even tell if it's a taser or a gun in her hand, it's that blurry. But if, uh, he stabbed them and he's got a knife, that's a different thing, right? The whole thing is fucked, though. Like, that is the last thing America needs right now.

• 29:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I mean, you don't want another riot season?

• 29:54Speaker 01

  I mean, I wonder, um, if people would go right into it the way they did before without USAID's help.

• 30:03Speaker 02

  Here's what a witness said he saw.

• 30:05Speaker 01

  Witness came flying around on his bicycle, one officer tackled him, two other officers kind of rushed over. One of the officers yelled, "He has a knife." One of the officers then draws a taser and yells, "Taser, taser, taser." He tasers him. So, it says he tasers him, but wasn't that the woman?

• 30:23Speaker 02

  I'm not sure that she actually tasered him, or she just had her weapon on.

• 30:27Speaker 01

  She might have just had her weapon out. Uh, he tases him and the victim falls to the ground.

• 30:33Speaker 01

  The three continue to struggle for a second or two, then one of the officers stands just a couple feet above his head, shooting the, okay.

• 30:40Speaker 02

  Three times in the head.

• 30:41Speaker 01

  Three times to the head, holy fuck.

• 30:44Speaker 02

  It did look like he was the shooter.

• 30:46Speaker 01

  Okay, so that's what we saw.

• 30:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, and the thing, the tell for that was, as soon as he was done, he put it right back in the holster. The other cops weren't doing that.

• 30:55Speaker 03

  This is additional video that has been, not been circulated online, that's being reviewed.

• 31:00Speaker 01

  Oh. Why don't they have body cameras?

• 31:03Speaker 03

  Uh, and that's what, I mean, that's probably part of the whole protest, was that their cameras were not on.

• 31:08Speaker 01

  So...

• 31:08Speaker 03

  Or if they didn't have them, I don't know.

• 31:09Speaker 01

  Did they, let's find that out. Did they not have them, or were they not on?

• 31:13Speaker 03

  Uh, lack of body cameras, none of the officers involved were wearing body cameras.

• 31:18Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 31:19Speaker 03

  So...

• 31:19Speaker 02

  None of them.

• 31:20Speaker 01

  That's, are they supposed to?

• 31:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, that may not be part of the ordinance.

• 31:24Speaker 03

  I don't know about the, where, City of Madison?

• 31:26Speaker 01

  How about fix that?

• 31:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, fix that.

• 31:30Speaker 02

  You know, cops often are the ones who suggest that.

• 31:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:33Speaker 02

  For their own, for their own safety, they say that they want to wear body cams.

• 31:36Speaker 01

  I've seen a lot of crazy body cam footage where a guy is pulling someone over, and they're just having a casual conversation, all of a sudden the guy pulls a gun out and starts shooting them.

• 31:45Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 31:46Speaker 01

  I've seen a bunch of those.

• 31:47Speaker 02

  Tons. Especially the routine traffic stops, happens constantly.

• 31:51Speaker 01

  You have to always think, like, if you're in an altercation with a cop, these people are always worried that this is where their life is gonna end. They're always worried that they're gonna get shot. They're, they've seen those videos, too. So if you start shit with a cop and he freaks out and goes the wrong direction, like, you're probably dealing with a guy who's got some serious PTSD.

• 32:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's seen it before. Or his buddy's gotten, gotten plugged right there.

• 32:17Speaker 01

  They've all seen it.

• 32:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:19Speaker 01

  I have a friend who, uh, spent a lot of times overseas, uh, deployed, and he's in combat, and he said he saw way more as an Austin cop. Like, way more fucked up things. And all the time. Whereas, you know, you're not in war all the time, you're not in firefights all the time, because like, it's like every day, every day you're seeing something fucked up that you can't unsee.

• 32:39Speaker 02

  And you see it with kids.

• 32:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:40Speaker 02

  Things you gotta deal with with kids, things you gotta deal with with all sorts of things.

• 32:44Speaker 01

  All sorts of things.

• 32:45Speaker 02

  That is not a fun job.

• 32:46Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 32:47Speaker 02

  And I would not want it at all. So I always do tend to cut law enforcement quite a bit of grace until I hear what their side of things are.

• 32:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, I do, too.

• 32:56Speaker 02

  That is a, that is a brutal job to have. My buddy of mine's a deputy sheriff, and I talk with him, and he's policing a small area. And he's like, it's the stuff with the kids that gets him. Yeah, exactly. He's like, that's the stuff, he'll get, you know, he'll go into a junkie's house, there's a two-year-old there, hasn't eaten in four days, you know?

• 33:18Speaker 02

  He's like, that's the stuff that really, you know, he's like, I'd rather shoot a person than that.

• 33:24Speaker 02

  Which kinda makes sense to me, right? Like, I would...

• 33:27Speaker 01

  It does.

• 33:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, I probably would, too.

• 33:29Speaker 01

  You know, when you, you think about

• 33:32Speaker 01

  who should be allowed to have kids, who should be, like, that's what's really crazy about freedom. Is that any two crackheads with no money at all, just on the side of the road, and he can nut inside of her, and that creates a life. And that life, they're responsible for. And they're smoking crack and drinking Everclear, and they have a baby growing inside their body, and no one can do anything about it. It's like, there's no protection for that baby, there's no nothing. And then if that baby's born, if it does live, like, you know, you talk to people that have actually, like, been in the delivery room with crack babies. It's like, oh my god, man, the horror stories about a child addicted to drugs coming out of the womb addicted to drugs.

• 34:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:17Speaker 01

  And detoxing.

• 34:19Speaker 02

  Heavily addicted.

• 34:20Speaker 01

  Heavily addicted.

• 34:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, it's ghoulish.

• 34:23Speaker 01

  It's so twisted, it's like, people can be so awesome and so shit at the same time, coexisting on the same patch of dirt. And, uh, no one devises a legitimate strategy for mitigating the amount of people that suck. And the problems with...

• 34:42Speaker 02

  Can it, can it even be done?

• 34:44Speaker 01

  I don't know. I mean, not with, not with freedom, and this is the flock camera question. You know, do you want Big Brother looking at your license plate everywhere you go? Well, listen, if someone shoots up, like, this is an argument that Marc Andreessen made on this podcast. When he had come here, right after he, uh, right before he had come here, there was a shooting in Austin, where some kids just randomly started shooting at people. And then they, uh, couldn't find them in Austin. But as soon as they left Austin city limits, they went into an area that had flock cameras, and they got them like that. So this was his argument for the benefits of flock cameras. I do believe he invested in flock cameras.

• 35:23Speaker 02

  Well, sure, I mean, but you can make that argument with CCTV as well, you can make that argument with...

• 35:27Speaker 01

  Everyone wear a chip.

• 35:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:29Speaker 01

  Everyone wear a body camera.

• 35:30Speaker 02

  Sure. The thing is, is you have to be cautious with the idea of the nanny state for another reason, besides just protecting people's independent privacy. It's because those things often become money wells for people to steal from the public trough.

• 35:43Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 35:44Speaker 02

  And that is the major issue, right? So, some of the, some of the reasons I tend, even though I'm on the paleo-Christian side, to lean towards a lot of the freedom elements over the, is because of the corruption. The corruption which happens oftentimes when you try to curtail too much, right? That in and of itself creates a system, and that system becomes ripe for corruption. Let me give you an example, flock cams. Who are we awarding the contracts to?

• 36:11Speaker 01

  Right.

• 36:11Speaker 02

  And who's gonna be, uh, servicing those contracts? Who's going to be doing these things, right? That's where you start to see, uh, with new systems, there becomes new corruption. So there has to be a way to curtail, but there's some things that are pretty obvious that you could curtail, and who cares if people bitch about it? Like, let's take, uh, online prostitution, for instance. Okay, great, it's illegal to do OnlyFans, let's say.

• 36:35Speaker 02

  How the hell could that possibly be bad for society? Like, what is, what is that going to do that's just, "Oh, we gotta have that, though, Andrew, we gotta, we gotta have that." It's like, I don't think we do. I don't think it's necessary, and if we got rid of it, like, who cares? You know, it seems like it would just be a massive net positive for every human being if that was just done away with altogether. And it's like, what the, the systems that come in, too, though, for policing it, are prone to corruption, so you gotta be cautious about it.

• 37:06Speaker 01

  Right.

• 37:06Speaker 02

  Right, you gotta be cautious about it.

• 37:08Speaker 01

  Also, I just don't like people telling people what to do. Even if they shouldn't be doing it, I don't like it. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. If you've thought about trying therapy with our long-term partner, BetterHelp, insurance options may now be available nationwide with an average copay for eligible members of just $23 per session. And with World Mental Health Day on the 10th, now's the perfect time to give it a try. In fact, don't even wait until the 10th, because all that stress you feel, it's not waiting around. So instead of letting it build up, sign up for a therapy session and unload at any time, not just on World Mental Health Day. If you've been waiting to start therapy, BetterHelp works with more than 125 health plan networks,

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• 38:46Speaker 02

  I mean, to an extent, though, right? Like, if they're heroin addicts, you're gonna be like, nah, we gotta, can't be...

• 38:50Speaker 01

  Well, even that, like, I don't think you should be a heroin addict, but I don't think I should be the one to tell you not to do heroin. I don't, because I think it's a slippery slope, and then it's, don't smoke cigarettes. And then it's, because cigarettes are killing you. And then it's, don't drink whiskey, because you could be a drunk driver and kill a family of five. Like, it's all the same shit, it's like...

• 39:10Speaker 02

  But do you think that all those have kinda the same impact on society ultimately?

• 39:15Speaker 01

  Well, the heroin thing is a weird one, because, um...

• 39:19Speaker 02

  Because like the argument I make would be like the incest argument. It'd be like, look, that's outlawed for a good reason. But what if you have two people who are totally sterile? Like, they can't have kids, right? What's the moral argument that can be made? And there, people are like, well, there's, I can't really make a moral argument. It's just gross.

• 39:39Speaker 01

  You're fucking your sister, bro.

• 39:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, what are you doing? It's just gross. And it's like, well, but can we legislate off of it's just gross? And, and kind of the libertarian mindset is, no, we can't. And I think, yeah, we can. I'm okay with that. Like, I'm okay about, I remember ta- uh, debating with Dave Smith who brought this up.

• 39:57Speaker 01

  What would you do? Would you arrest some guy and his sister? If you found out they were boning each other? Why not arrest him? Why not?

• 40:03Speaker 02

  Like, how would that? How would deterring that society-wide ever be a bad idea?

• 40:10Speaker 01

  I don't think it is. However, it's technically a victimless crime, especially under the circumstances that you described. Whereas they're both, both sterile. I do not think you should be able to do that.

• 40:22Speaker 02

  No?

• 40:22Speaker 01

  But, well, I don't think you should do that, I should say.

• 40:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:26Speaker 01

  But in the case of Cersei and what's his face? What's the other dude's name in Game of Thrones? The brother and sister?

• 40:32Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 40:33Speaker 01

  They really seemed like they were in love, dude.

• 40:35Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 40:36Speaker 01

  They really seemed like they were in love.

• 40:37Speaker 02

  They had like incest babies, right? Who went on to rule kingdoms and they were all, like Joffrey.

• 40:42Speaker 01

  Joffrey's.

• 40:42Speaker 02

  He probably didn't want the incest baby in charge of the kingdom. Didn't work out so well.

• 40:47Speaker 01

  The other incest baby was in charge of the kingdom. He jumped off the roof.

• 40:50Speaker 02

  True. And wasn't Jon Snow technically doing incest as well with the Queen of Dragons? Like, weren't they both?

• 40:56Speaker 01

  Kind of, they're related.

• 40:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:58Speaker 01

  They're in the basket.

• 40:59Speaker 02

  They were, they were pretty, uh...

• 41:01Speaker 01

  Right? Something.

• 41:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, there was a lot of incest in the Game of Thrones.

• 41:05Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 41:07Speaker 02

  But the other argument there that's interesting is it's like, okay, that's, you know, fair enough. It's a victimless crime, but you can just kind of extend that. Like, okay, well, then why can't a guy have five wives? Why can't he have 20? Why can't 20 gay men all get married and adopt one child? It's a just victimless crime.

• 41:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:23Speaker 02

  It's like, so doesn't the slippery slope kind of go the other way a little bit, too?

• 41:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, it does. It does go the other way. And the, the multiple wives thing, didn't they just pass something like that in Toronto? Wasn't that in Ontario? Where they're allowing polygamy now? Because they have so many Islamic people living there that think that you should be allowed to have...

• 41:44Speaker 02

  Well, I remember there was big pushes for that in Utah because of the Mormon population.

• 41:48Speaker 01

  Well, you know, that's why Mitt Romney's family moved to Mexico.

• 41:51Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Really?

• 41:52Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 41:53Speaker 02

  It was due, it was due to the multiple wives? I didn't know that it was due to the multiple wives.

• 41:56Speaker 01

  Well, not specifically, but that sect of Mormonism fled the United States when they passed polygamy laws. And I think there was probably just a broader crackdown on this perceived new cult. They thought of it as a cult. Now, it's just established religion of really nice people that knock on your door.

• 42:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:14Speaker 01

  They drive around bicycles.

• 42:14Speaker 02

  I must, I must admit, I have debated many Mormons and they're just the nicest people.

• 42:18Speaker 01

  The nicest people.

• 42:19Speaker 02

  The nicest people.

• 42:20Speaker 01

  It's the best cult.

• 42:21Speaker 02

  And it makes me, it, it like, it's upsetting because I'm, I'm like, look, I'm about to expose that your prophet was totally fake. And, you know, I'm trying to get people into the debate and they just end up being like the nicest people. And I go, aw, man.

• 42:34Speaker 01

  So, uh, having multiple wives or spouses is illegal in Canada under section 293 polygamy and section 290 bigamy. What is bigamy?

• 42:44Speaker 02

  Uh, isn't that, is that the other way? Is bigamy the other way? Polygamy is the, uh, man with multiple...

• 42:51Speaker 01

  What's, do you know what it is, Jamie? Do you know what bigamy is? Ever heard of it? I don't even think I've ever seen that written. The act of marrying one person while still legally married. Oh, oh, okay. Oh, a bigamist, right. Duh. What?

• 43:10Speaker 03

  Four people at once in somewhere or another recently, like this year.

• 43:13Speaker 01

  In America?

• 43:14Speaker 03

  In Canada, see, Canada.

• 43:15Speaker 01

  He was married to four women at once?

• 43:17Speaker 03

  Multiple wives, married, so he got multiple marriage licenses and should not have given them or something.

• 43:21Speaker 01

  Oh, well, he doesn't look Muslim.

• 43:26Speaker 01

  That guy looks like he's just a regular Christian guy. Oh, well, he does look Muslim.

• 43:30Speaker 03

  But I don't know if it has anything to do with that.

• 43:31Speaker 01

  He might not be, though. He might just be a baller.

• 43:33Speaker 02

  He could be a Muslim.

• 43:34Speaker 01

  Ah!

• 43:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, I don't know if it has anything to do with religion.

• 43:36Speaker 01

  Go back to that case in Canada, though. Isn't there something where they're trying to pass it in Toronto?

• 43:41Speaker 03

  I don't think so. I mean, I typed in Toronto, multiple wives.

• 43:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, um, Toronto, Ontario, polygamy. I think they were trying to pass something.

• 43:51Speaker 03

  I mean, so I went to news to see something, you know, that would have popped up.

• 43:54Speaker 01

  Was it Ottawa? Maybe it was Ottawa. Yeah. Canada, polygamy. No new law in Canada legalizing multiple wives.

• 44:09Speaker 02

  Perhaps proposed law?

• 44:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I don't know. Maybe it is a proposed law. Maybe I just read some horse shit on Twitter, which is very possible. Whew, I've been off Twitter for a few days. I feel pretty good.

• 44:22Speaker 02

  It's good, dude. It's good to unplug from Twitter.

• 44:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, every now and then I just go in and I'm like, God, who are they mad at now? Oh, God, let's get out of here.

• 44:31Speaker 02

  Can I ask you a question?

• 44:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure.

• 44:32Speaker 02

  If you went into X tomorrow, let's say, and there was an option there where you could select it and it's like, US accounts only, that's all you could see? Do you think that 90% of the traffic for people would go away?

• 44:45Speaker 01

  A giant percentage.

• 44:46Speaker 02

  Huge percentage, right?

• 44:47Speaker 01

  Huge percentage is people being manipulated into arguments. Um, it is a strategy.

• 44:52Speaker 02

  By foreign assets, right?

• 44:53Speaker 01

  By foreign assets. It is a strategy, is real. This is not tinfoil hat shit. Um, we brought this up multiple times on the podcast, but I'll bring it up again just for the sake of this. There was an FBI analyst who, uh, took a look at Twitter when Elon was buying it and he estimated that 80% of the traffic is bots.

• 45:12Speaker 02

  This doesn't surprise me. Remember YouTube did an internal audit? And when they did their internal audit, this was a few years back and when I, when Susan still ran it, I believe. They did an internal audit and found out that most of the people that they had on YouTube are bots. And they did a great purge.

• 45:28Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 45:28Speaker 02

  Right? That's where the, that whole dead internet theory and all that really started to pick up traction was that, hey, look, a lot of this stuff is bots, foreign accounts, people who are manipulating US, uh, elections. They're manipulating, uh, various US interests. And this is happening all over the place.

• 45:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:49Speaker 02

  Right now, you have progressives, uh, who are funded by ActBlue, right? And I've proven this, we've, we traced all their money. It's progressives funded by ActBlue who are pushing the same narrative that like Candace Owens and others are pushing on the idea of Charlie Kirk's death and the conspiracy around that. So you have...

• 46:09Speaker 01

  So they're absolutely being paid to push this?

• 46:13Speaker 02

  Well, their stated mission, this particular progressive group, their stated mission was to take down TPUSA. I'll tell you a story. This is the tale of all tales.

• 46:21Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 46:22Speaker 02

  So, uh, Charlie Kirk has this huge outreach program that's happening through TPUSA on these college campuses. He's got viral clip after viral clip after viral clip. They are going wild. He's going campus to campus. He's doing his thing. He's being dogged by a progressive organization. This progressive organization shows up at almost all of these TPUSA events with the stated mission of trying to create a counter movement to what TPUSA is doing. Now, the woman who heads this particular organization received millions of dollars from ActBlue and other progressive organizations for this stated mission.

• 47:01Speaker 02

  That same woman, right this second, works with other op, X accounts, to push the messaging that Charlie Kirk was assassinated by his own TPUSA insiders in order to push that narrative forward because the stated goal still from that organization is to destroy TPUSA.

• 47:19Speaker 01

  So they've, how do we know that they've done this? Is, are there emails that have been found? Like, how do...

• 47:25Speaker 02

  Well, the stated goal of this particular person...

• 47:29Speaker 01

  Is to take down Turning Point.

• 47:30Speaker 02

  Is to take down TPUSA. She's very open about that. And then the way that you know that they are talking to these other accounts is because they do it publicly. Those public accounts will talk to this account, right? Very openly. They reaffirm each other's posts. They say, wow, that's real interesting, this kind of thing. All affirming that same, uh, conspiracy that TPUSA was the ones who actually set up and murdered Charlie Kirk.

• 47:58Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 47:58Speaker 02

  And at millions of dollars in ActBlue funding going towards this, no joke. Anybody can look, can look it up right now. The organization's called Unfuck America.

• 48:09Speaker 01

  So how do they think that his organization did this? That they convinced Tyler Robinson to do it? Or did they think someone else did it?

• 48:18Speaker 02

  I don't think that the progressive organization does believe that TPUSA did this. I think that what they want to do is...

• 48:25Speaker 01

  Oh, no, I understand that. But I mean, what are they trying to say?

• 48:28Speaker 02

  Oh, well, the, here's what the theory is. So take, uh, Ian Carroll, within 24 hours after Kirk's death blames Israel. Within 24 hours, he says, Israel killed Kirk. That was his tweet, went mega-viral. What the conspiracy is on that side is that Israel, along with Erica Kirk and TPUSA insiders, got together with, uh, elements of the US government to murder Charlie Kirk because he was going to leave the, quote, "pro-Israel cause." That's what the theory is.

• 49:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 49:02Speaker 02

  And that he was either murdered, some of them say with a microphone exploding, some of them say with a, uh, there was a second shooter and Robinson's a patsy. It all depends on which theorist you're talking to, but they all work together in the same unison from a single camp, which is interesting.

• 49:21Speaker 01

  Well, a lot of people had, um, takes on the shooting and the microphone one was the weirdest one to me. Um, it's weird because there's no, like, yeah, the shirt is moving, but also a bullet is going like, how many feet per second whizzing through the air? Like, do you understand?

• 49:42Speaker 02

  Yeah. So where's the air gonna go?

• 49:44Speaker 01

  People don't understand that.

• 49:45Speaker 02

  You know what got me though? So I went back and looked because they say that it's the same explosive which was used inside the Israeli pagers. Now that was very real. Israel sent these pagers all over.

• 49:55Speaker 01

  An explosion. That's my take. My point is like, there's no indication that there's an ignition.

• 50:00Speaker 02

  There is worse. There's no smoke.

• 50:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 50:03Speaker 02

  There's not. Now, all the Israeli, if you pull up, if you pulled up right now, one of these Israeli pagers going, because there's tons of videos of them.

• 50:09Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 50:09Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 50:10Speaker 01

  Let me see some Israeli pagers blowing off.

• 50:12Speaker 02

  There's smoke.

• 50:13Speaker 01

  Is there a dude like where it's on his hip?

• 50:16Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yep. There's one where it's on his hip and gets him. And you can see the cloud of smoke coming off because of the specific type of ignition.

• 50:23Speaker 01

  Right. But is it possible that this pager thing is different than whatever they think this microphone thing is? This microphone thing has some sort of a different kind of propellant? But then again, you, you'd have to like, okay, let's, let's imagine what kind of propellant exists, right? Compressed air? There's not enough room in that microphone to get enough compressed air to blow a hole in your neck and kill you instantly.

• 50:47Speaker 02

  Well, they claim that it's.

• 50:48Speaker 01

  Unless it's something else.

• 50:48Speaker 02

  It's this, what is it? P E T N explosive? This is the particular type that had to be used for the size of the microphone. But you have another problem. The mic's on the wrong side of where the wound is.

• 50:59Speaker 01

  Right.

• 50:59Speaker 02

  The other is, there's no burn marks. There's no smoke. There's nothing. There's like, there's nothing to confirm this theory at all.

• 51:05Speaker 01

  You'd have to guess where that mic is, because he's moving around too. You have to guess where that mic is pointing. You could take someone out on the side.

• 51:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, this one's great.

• 51:13Speaker 03

  One that goes, I'll show you. This happens again here.

• 51:15Speaker 02

  Watch the smoke.

• 51:19Speaker 02

  See all that smoke?

• 51:21Speaker 01

  Oh, let me see that again?

• 51:22Speaker 02

  Watch all the.

• 51:23Speaker 01

  Dude's just chilling and boom.

• 51:24Speaker 02

  Look at all that smoke.

• 51:25Speaker 01

  Blew up in his bag though.

• 51:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:27Speaker 03

  Yeah. So a lot of them, like, didn't die. They go to the hospital and they're just like, you know, hurt.

• 51:31Speaker 01

  Probably because they had it in their bag or something.

• 51:33Speaker 03

  I found a couple, one other video here.

• 51:35Speaker 01

  Bro, these guys are gonna be carrying around like armored satchels.

• 51:38Speaker 03

  Well, yeah, you could like, a couple of them were on bikes and stuff when it happened.

• 51:44Speaker 03

  Like, that guy got fucked up.

• 51:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, he got messed up real bad.

• 51:47Speaker 01

  Or they give you the illusion they did by blurring out his head.

• 51:50Speaker 03

  That's the other part. I mean, not that these are fake, but yes, there's only 11 were killed by the pagers.

• 51:54Speaker 01

  Still pretty slick.

• 51:56Speaker 02

  That was extremely slick. I mean.

• 51:59Speaker 01

  I mean, crazy. They, they sent him off to them years ago.

• 52:02Speaker 02

  That's some CIA shit, man. Like, that's some deep state.

• 52:05Speaker 01

  Mossad shit.

• 52:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's crazy.

• 52:07Speaker 01

  That's probably where the CIA learned it. But that's an explosion, right? And yeah, you see smoke. But is there some kind of a propellant that would be lethal from a short distance with some sort of a projectile?

• 52:18Speaker 02

  It's possible.

• 52:19Speaker 01

  But it would also like, have to be like, how are you aiming it? You're not even aiming it. It's sitting up here, right? So if it's sitting here and he's doing all this and moving around, like, it might take his ear off. It might zib, whiz to the side and shoot somebody else if he leans over.

• 52:33Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 52:34Speaker 01

  Unless they planned exactly when it's gonna go off and it's pointing towards his neck, like, no.

• 52:39Speaker 02

  Which, yeah.

• 52:39Speaker 01

  It seems like a gunshot wound. It's just hard to imagine that it's a 30 odd six. That's my issue with it. I look at it and, you know, I've, I've seen takes from guys that are gun experts. And they, they have a problem with it too. The thing about guns though is weird stuff happens when you shoot bones. Like, it is possible that you wouldn't get a pass through, depending on how it squared the spinal column, depending on how it hit, and depending on what kind of bullet it is. Uh, I forget the type.

• 53:13Speaker 02

  These are 150 grain Core-Lock soft tips.

• 53:16Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 53:16Speaker 02

  And they're soft tipped.

• 53:17Speaker 01

  Right.

• 53:18Speaker 02

  So they only have enough of a jacket to keep the bullet together.

• 53:21Speaker 01

  Right. The idea is that it expands inside the body, causing massive trauma.

• 53:25Speaker 02

  Right.

• 53:25Speaker 01

  Right.

• 53:26Speaker 02

  Which is why I use them for hunting and probably you have to.

• 53:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. No, I haven't used that particular round, but, um, it just seems like it's a lot of fucking, lot of energy.

• 53:38Speaker 02

  It is.

• 53:38Speaker 01

  Coming towards your neck. It's hard to believe that it wouldn't blow a hole through the neck and leave a big fucking, just take a chunk out, that it would just make a, a round hole. But that's beside the point. You know, there's other weird stuff with like the video. I don't like, there, there's a lot of people saying that the video, um, is super clear. They're seeing 4K footage. It's clearly Tyler Robinson on the roof. No, it's not.

• 54:10Speaker 02

  Jack Persobek and Benny Johnson.

• 54:12Speaker 01

  That's crazy that they said that. That is not clear. That is a blurry figure. You could barely ascertain as to whether or not there's a recoil when someone takes the shot. So it does seem like the guy on the roof gets in a prone position and it looks like something that might be a rifle. Right? It's blurry as fuck.

• 54:31Speaker 02

  It also does look like there's kickback on the right leg.

• 54:34Speaker 01

  It looks like there might be some recoil. It's hard, but it's not clear. Like, for them to say it's crystal clear, it's Tyler Robinson, it's on the roof, it's like, oh.

• 54:42Speaker 02

  Well, it's interesting when, when Persobek came out and said that and Benny Johnson, there was another guy who was there who I know. His name's Kai Schwimmer. And Kai put out a tweet. He said, look, they might have sensationalized this just a bit. Okay? He said, but the video that we did see in the courtroom was actually much clearer.

• 54:59Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 54:59Speaker 02

  So I DM'd him and I DM'd Jack Persobek. And I DM'd, well, I couldn't get ahold of Benny, but I DM'd Jack Persobek and I said, just be straight with me. Like, did you, did you try to over sensationalize this thing for clicks? Like, what's the deal? He said, no, listen, the footage we did see inside the courtroom was actually a lot clearer than anything that the public has seen so far. That's their claim. Kai Schwimmer, now I wouldn't, uh, just take Persobek as word, but Kai Schwimmer, he's a Mormon. Mormon kid, uh, not very prone to tall tales. In fact, he was the first one who came out and said, look, I was there. And you're kind of over sensationalizing it. It is a lot clearer, but it does, it's not showing everything that you're claiming it's showing.

• 55:42Speaker 01

  Hmm. So it's clearer, but it's not clear enough. It's not like 4K, close up, clearly his face. The other thing that was weird was the guy in the crowd that jumped up and said, I killed him. That's weird. And that guy, wasn't he at the Boston bombing as well?

• 56:00Speaker 02

  So he's a professional agitator who's been at tons and tons of these events. Later he's found, I believe, with kiddie porn, right?

• 56:10Speaker 01

  How convenient.

• 56:11Speaker 02

  Well.

• 56:12Speaker 01

  Well, also, that's the kind of guy.

• 56:14Speaker 02

  That's the kind of guy though, right?

• 56:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:15Speaker 02

  And so his, um, he has been at tons of events agitating and he is well-known to law enforcement for doing this.

• 56:25Speaker 02

  So that's kind of what they're, they're stating for him. The, if you, if you're looking at this from a broad view, if you're looking at the conspiracy side versus what they call the Fed slop side, let's say. It makes sense for them to say, hey, wait a second. That's really weird. This guy jumps up and says, I did it.

• 56:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 56:41Speaker 02

  That makes him, he's a patsy distraction, something like this. Till you look into the guy.

• 56:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 56:46Speaker 02

  And the guy is a lunatic who's been at many of these events.

• 56:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:51Speaker 02

  Doing crazy stuff like this.

• 56:52Speaker 01

  That's the thing is both things can be true. Like, MKUltra is real. Also, that guy might just have been a cuck who's in the crowd who took advantage of a situation because he's literally insane and he's into kiddie porn.

• 57:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, but, well, there's no doubt. One of the biggest kind of false narratives that comes out of this, when I do debates, one of the things I'm trying to structure around is like, I know that we're coming in with a narrative, but I need to understand yours and you need to understand mine so we can get somewhere towards what the truth is here, right? Because you're gonna have a frame of what you're viewing the world, a worldview, and so am I. And so everybody has a worldview. We, we have to figure each other's out to get somewhere. Here with this, one of the most disturbing aspects of it is they, the people who promote this actually don't want their worldview or their positions to be examined. They only want to examine the evidence from the state. It's like, that would be fine, I think, if it was the case that you made no claims past that.

• 57:49Speaker 01

  Right.

• 57:49Speaker 02

  So if you just only say, hey, you know, I'm not really sure what happened and I want to really kind of review the evidence and that's that. I don't really have a problem with that. I think that that's probably healthy. The issue that I run into is when people make claims past that, oh, it was such an exploding page, you know, exploding mic.

• 58:04Speaker 01

  Right.

• 58:05Speaker 02

  It was, uh, two different shooters. It was a folding rifle. It was a, that, 30 odd six couldn't do this. And even though the US Army, remember, the 30 odd six used in the M1 Grand was used in World War II and then it was used in Korea. Before that, we had the O3 Springfield. It was used heavily in World War I, World War II, and again in Korea. The US Army has studied 30 odd six entry wounds in depth and produced many manuals on it, explaining how cavitation works with 30 odd six and that the bullet doesn't always penetrate. And that's with full metal jacket rounds.

• 58:39Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 58:39Speaker 02

  That are designed for maximum penetration, not 150 grain Core-Lock coming out of a, an antique rifle essentially. Uh, it could easily split up very quickly. And that's why they ended up pulling fragments out of Charlie. It wouldn't surprise me if, when we have all the data from the coroner report that he has tons of shards all throughout his chest, all throughout, uh, his entire, because they were saying that there's trauma inside the chest, which would make sense if the bullet split up here.

• 59:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 59:09Speaker 02

  It would create all sorts of fragments down in the chest.

• 59:12Speaker 01

  Right. That, that is an important distinction about the type of bullet.

• 59:16Speaker 02

  Huge distinction. The FMJ especially, um, because that's what the army was using is FMJ ball ammunition. It's cheap to produce, right? So they're using it in all these different wars and the amount of people shot with that caliber between World War I, II and Korea is astronomical. They even used the 30-8.6 in Vietnam in limited capacity, especially the O3 Springfield. It was still in service by special forces.

• 59:40Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 59:40Speaker 02

  So the question becomes like, the US Army has studied this in-depth and I went back and I pulled all their manuals and I even put them out and several people have done the exact same thing and put them out explaining how cavitation works. And they're saying, "Look, the energy dissipation, the second it hits a human body, it dissipates very, very, very quickly with the resistance. So it doesn't always go through." Now oftentimes it does with the FMJ, but even then, it didn't always go through. So, you know, it's a, it's a well-studied phenomenon. Another one would be Martin Luther King. Martin Luther King gets hit through the jaw, ends up here. Well, if it's just gonna blow through all bone, why did it stop in him?

• 1:00:22Speaker 02

  Well, it's because the second it has impact, it begins to slow down and then it impacts something else, slows down even more. So it's totally possible that this guy was hit with a 30-8.6. I don't, I don't know why that would be in the realm of impossibility. We have enough data on the ammo to know that, yeah, it's very possible this happened.

• 1:00:41Speaker 01

  Um, it's, it is definitely possible. Um, there's a lot of people that think that the sound was not, uh, they think the sound indicated that it was a closer shot than where it was. And I've heard a lot of people say, "Well, there's also an issue with it being supersonic ammo. So you're getting two sounds. You're, you're getting a sound of the bullet actually breaking the air. You're also getting the sound of the rifle going off." I don't understand it.

• 1:01:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's difficult there when you're making the judgments on the sound because there are people who have run experiments saying right down to the second, this meets up with a shot placement. And then there's people who say, "No, there's, you know, that experiment's bogus due to the controls for this or that." The problem is, is that most of these people don't have any expertise in this arena at all.

• 1:01:31Speaker 01

  They're just yapping.

• 1:01:32Speaker 02

  And they're just, exactly.

• 1:01:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:34Speaker 02

  They're just trying to, you know, and I get it. You're trying to figure it out. I understand.

• 1:01:38Speaker 01

  The Israel thing, um, there was some, uh, text messages back and forth where Charlie was talking about getting out of the Israel business. And there was this position that he had where he did not want us to go to war with Iran.

• 1:01:52Speaker 02

  All true.

• 1:01:53Speaker 01

  Uh, and he had a lot of influence. And then there was also that Israel supposedly had offered him $150 million to be more pro-Israel.

• 1:02:04Speaker 02

  That is the problem that we've run into. It's like, I've never been able to verify that was the case and I've looked.

• 1:02:10Speaker 01

  Okay, so where does that claim come from?

• 1:02:12Speaker 02

  This claim basically comes from this camp without anything substantiated.

• 1:02:16Speaker 01

  So it's the same people that are pushing this thing, the turning point killed them.

• 1:02:19Speaker 02

  What's interesting about this is like, it is indeed true. It does appear that Charlie Kirk was extremely pissed off at some of his donors because they were trying to control who he was platforming. They were upset that he had platformed Tucker Carlson. They were upset that he had platformed Candace Owens. They were upset, and why? Well, it's because Tucker Carlson, Candace Owens, they were very anti, or at least had a somewhat anti-Israel message at the time. Carlson, I think a bit more than Candace, or maybe it could be the reverse. But I don't think that that matters too much. The donors were pissed off. Many of them were pro-Israel and some of these donors were applying pressure. And so Kirk was lamenting inside of his text messages about this pressure he was experiencing from some of his donors about who he could or couldn't platform. And so as a negotiating

• 1:03:04Speaker 02

  piece, he said, "Well, I'll leave the pro-Israeli cause if you're going to try to tell me who I can and can't platform." And that was kind of what his position was. Now that seems like platforming, I don't know, um, even, even on Twitch Politics or YouTube Politics with smaller channels, smaller streamers, they argue about platforming all the time, responsible platforming. Is it responsible for you to platform this guy? Or is it responsible for you to platform this terrorist? And they're endlessly fighting about it. So this actually doesn't surprise me a bit that these guys are fighting over, uh, who you can or can't platform. If you're giving your money to an NGO for the purpose of giving the pro cause and that NGO is saying, "Wait a second, I'm gonna platform people who are against your cause," of course the donor's gonna get pissed.

• 1:03:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, the platforming thing I think is just gatekeeping. Um, if you're upset that someone is having a conversation or a debate with someone that you don't agree with, that the, the, you're supposed to hear that person's perspective. You're supposed to, supposed to hear them challenged. You're supposed to hear them allowed to flesh out the full point of view.

• 1:04:11Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:04:12Speaker 01

  Not like in weird clip form, but go ahead, tell me what you really think and I'm gonna tell you why I disagree with that.

• 1:04:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:04:18Speaker 01

  That's healthy. It's supposed to be what we do.

• 1:04:21Speaker 02

  That's the, that, you're basically reciting what Kirk's position was.

• 1:04:24Speaker 01

  Yes, and what he was always really good at.

• 1:04:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:04:26Speaker 01

  Unfortunately, there's a few clips. There's the clips thing with Charlie where he's saying things and people think it's racist, they're saying things. And it's like, you have to understand the context of what he was saying. And I've had conversations with black friends who think like he was saying, "If I see a black pilot on a plane, uh, I get worried. Is he qualified?" The reason why he's saying that is because there are specific laws that were designed to hire people just based on their race and not on their competency. He wasn't saying that black people weren't competent as pilots. What he's worried is that in the rush to meet these quotas, they're gonna hire people who are not competent just because they're black.

• 1:05:08Speaker 02

  Hundred percent.

• 1:05:09Speaker 01

  Just like if they wanted to hire old white guys, they can hire a bunch of old white guys who suck if they just wanna fill a quota of old white guys. It just happens at this particular time where he's talking about, black people. And it seems like if you're just looking at the clip, this racist piece of shit doesn't think black people can fly a plane. And it's, that's the unfortunate thing about thinking out loud, right? Which is what we do. We think out loud in public. And when you think out loud in public, someone can take what you're saying and take a clip of it and completely out, out of context, it looks bad.

• 1:05:41Speaker 02

  Happens to me all the time.

• 1:05:42Speaker 01

  It, it happens to me.

• 1:05:43Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:05:43Speaker 01

  But I've, I had that conversation with people about Charlie and I'm like, I don't agree with Charlie Kirk. I didn't agree with Charlie Kirk on everything. I met him once. He was a very nice guy. I met him at a gun range. I met him at Taran Tactical in LA. It's a place where you learn like serious gun shooting. This is where Keanu Reeves learned for John Wick and a bunch of us.

• 1:06:03Speaker 02

  Is that where all those videos are from?

• 1:06:04Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:06:04Speaker 02

  Where Keanu Reeves is going between shotgun to three gun and that kind of thing?

• 1:06:09Speaker 01

  Exactly. That's where I met Charlie.

• 1:06:10Speaker 02

  He's really good at that, by the way.

• 1:06:12Speaker 01

  Who? Keanu? Oh, yeah.

• 1:06:14Speaker 02

  He is really good at that.

• 1:06:15Speaker 01

  Oh, he's fucking dedicated, man. When he was practicing, I mean, I talked to Taran about it. When he was practicing for John Wick, I mean, he was obsessive. He was obsessive. And you know, that whole, uh, magazine thing he does, the flick? He invented that. That's not something that's like a standard thing. Most of the time, people just hit the release, drop the mag, pop the new mag. And he decided to do this jazzy flick thing and now people do it all the time.

• 1:06:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:39Speaker 01

  It's kind of funny.

• 1:06:40Speaker 02

  I never put that together. Um, I guess I haven't actually seen that before.

• 1:06:45Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:06:45Speaker 02

  Before the Wick movies.

• 1:06:46Speaker 01

  I think it's him. I think it's the Wick flick. I think, I think.

• 1:06:49Speaker 02

  The Wick flick?

• 1:06:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think Keanu, at least this, this is the people that were.

• 1:06:53Speaker 02

  But even the way he reloads the shotgun is interesting.

• 1:06:55Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. Yeah.

• 1:06:56Speaker 02

  Right? The way that he will, he'll actually hold it up as he's going in.

• 1:07:00Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:07:01Speaker 02

  And in between a few shots, he's loading again. It's like.

• 1:07:04Speaker 01

  And fast.

• 1:07:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:07:05Speaker 01

  Fast and smooth.

• 1:07:06Speaker 02

  That's not, that's not the thing that you usually see in movies. Usually in movies, it's like you have way more rounds than you should have to compensate for how bad the actor is at gun handling.

• 1:07:14Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:07:15Speaker 02

  For him, it's like the opposite.

• 1:07:16Speaker 01

  I do that in movies. I'm like, "Why is he shooting still? He's out of bullets."

• 1:07:20Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:07:20Speaker 01

  He's out of bullets. It's 29 shots. He's out of bullets.

• 1:07:22Speaker 02

  Did you ever see The Walking Dead? You remember the famous scene where Herschel's in the front and he's got the pump action shotgun? It's just unlimited ammo.

• 1:07:29Speaker 01

  [laughing]

• 1:07:30Speaker 02

  Unlimited ammo. It was like he found Solid Snake's unlimited ammo bandana and put it on and he is just, I mean, 100 rounds with this pump action shotgun. It's just, he just never stops.

• 1:07:40Speaker 01

  It's so crazy. It's so silly.

• 1:07:42Speaker 02

  And I get, you know, I get pissed. I'll be sitting there watching it with my wife and I'll be like, "When's he gonna reload? When's he gonna, this is bullshit."

• 1:07:49Speaker 01

  Well, the reason why it was so good was Taran. Like, Taran is really meticulous and he's a multiple-time world champion shooter. You know, he does those competitions. Shooter ready? Beep. And he's like, super in the spectrum. So he fucking just sees things differently. He doesn't miss. He's crazy good.

• 1:08:06Speaker 02

  So Charlie was training under him, huh?

• 1:08:08Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:08:09Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:08:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. We were both there at the same time.

• 1:08:11Speaker 02

  Interesting.

• 1:08:12Speaker 01

  Just randomly, you know, ran into him there. Actually, anyway, very nice guy. And the point is like.

• 1:08:19Speaker 01

  People think that he was like this mean shitty conservative. He wasn't mean. He was very kind and the way he would talk to people, if you see enough of these, not the clips, but enough of these conversations with people, it depended entirely on how the person approached him. And when people were respectful and reasonable with him, he was very kind and respectful and reasonable back. I think he was a good man. I really do. And he was a young man, too.

• 1:08:45Speaker 02

  He was.

• 1:08:46Speaker 01

  He was a young man that was getting an enormous amount of attention at a very young age. It was handling it very well. It is not easy to do.

• 1:08:54Speaker 02

  Especially, think about where he was going.

• 1:08:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:57Speaker 02

  This guy's going into, it's like conservatives have wanted this my whole life. We've got to get into those institutions, the college institutions.

• 1:09:04Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:09:05Speaker 02

  That progressives have a stranglehold. Jordan Peterson talked a lot about this.

• 1:09:09Speaker 01

  Well, I think Crowder did it first.

• 1:09:11Speaker 02

  He did. He had the Change My Mind series.

• 1:09:13Speaker 01

  Yes, and he's great at those.

• 1:09:15Speaker 02

  He is.

• 1:09:16Speaker 01

  I mean, and but those also, there's clips where, look, you're, you're in these agitated environments and people are yelling at you and you're yelling back and, you know, just get a clip of that. It's like, oh, this guy comes to harass kids. Like, that's, it's, you should welcome discourse and it should be something where everybody can do peacefully. It shouldn't be where these people speak and you hit the fire alarm because you don't want them speaking and you're outside screaming and chanting and throwing rocks at their cars. Like, that's crazy. It's bad for everybody.

• 1:09:46Speaker 02

  Last time I talked to Stephen, because he went and did a couple more of those after Kirk had died. And I said, you know, that's as dangerous as hell, man, you know? And he's like, well, I'm just gonna build a bulletproof, like, glass square and I'll just do it from there.

• 1:10:03Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:10:03Speaker 02

  Right? That was his, his dedication to it. And I like Stephen. He's become a very good friend of mine over the time that I've known him. It's just that, like, he, right now, going on these college campuses and doing these debates where you're, you know, these people are coming up.

• 1:10:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:21Speaker 02

  They have some things to say. I mean, it's gonna heighten the energy. Now, Crowder's whole thing is not to debate. He wants to sit down and just have the convo.

• 1:10:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:29Speaker 02

  I don't wanna debate. I just want, I wanna actually see if you can change my mind on this issue.

• 1:10:33Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:10:34Speaker 02

  And so it's a lot calmer. You know, but Charlie's wasn't.

• 1:10:37Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:10:37Speaker 02

  Charlie's was much more energy-based. It was combative, things like this, and it pissed a lot of people off. It pissed him off so bad that after he died, we did three weeks on TikTok, going and talking to various TikTokers and their channels who were just celebrating his death like you can't believe. They were just giddy. These leftists were jumping up and down. I'd go into their TikTok spaces and say, so what do you think of Charlie? And they'd say, oh, I'm glad he's dead. It's the best thing that ever happened to the country. Tyler Robinson's a hero. They said this stuff to me live.

• 1:11:12Speaker 02

  It was bad. And it was weeks of it that we went and exposed these various TikTokers doing that.

• 1:11:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, I saw a lot of people online celebrating and it's just disturbing, weird to watch that you would encourage that kind of gun violence. Like, when, when, when is the left encouraging gun violence? That seems so insane. Just because you got ahold of some clips and I'm telling you, you didn't get the full understanding of who this guy was.

• 1:11:39Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:11:40Speaker 01

  And, and who he could be. You know, again, he's 28 years old. Who knows who he's gonna be in 20 years? Like, he's a nice guy. He was a reasonable guy. Like, they, celebrating that guy's death, what you're gonna do is you're gonna make more monsters. You're gonna make more people that think, if you didn't like that guy, well, then fuck you.

• 1:12:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. Wait till you see when the mean people come out.

• 1:12:04Speaker 01

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• 1:14:12Speaker 02

  Exactly. And I've heard a lot of that. And some of that actually ties in to why so many people were so upset with TPUSA initially, including myself. We were like, where's the energy? You need to, like, they just, they just killed this guy in broad daylight.

• 1:14:28Speaker 01

  I think everybody was rattled.

• 1:14:29Speaker 02

  These crazy leftists, right? Like, where's the push? Where's the energy? We wanted our war, right? Our, our verbal online war.

• 1:14:36Speaker 01

  Do you think there's any possibility that if someone else killed him? Do you think there's any possibility that he was assassinated by Israel?

• 1:14:43Speaker 02

  I don't, I've never, well, when we're talking about possibility, almost anything's possible.

• 1:14:47Speaker 01

  Almost anything's possible.

• 1:14:48Speaker 02

  But there's not good evidence to support it and there's probably pretty good evidence not to. So, for instance, the, the guy was still very much of a pro-Israel guy, even up to death. It is true that he was fighting with donors about the cause and this guy's.

• 1:15:03Speaker 01

  But if he could have been a substantial roadblock to the Iraq war, if he, or Iran war, rather, if he was a substantial roadblock, I mean, that's not outside the realm of possibility that a nation-state would take a guy like that out.

• 1:15:17Speaker 02

  They didn't take out Fuentes, they didn't take out Owens.

• 1:15:19Speaker 01

  Different.

• 1:15:20Speaker 02

  They didn't take out Ian Carroll. They didn't take out any of these other huge personalities who were roadblocks to the way.

• 1:15:25Speaker 01

  I think Charlie was very different. Carroll, or, or, excuse me, Fuentes is more easy to dismiss because he said so many wild things, shitposting. He said so many crazy things that I think he is almost embodying in their eyes, like, the crazy anti-Semite. Whereas Charlie was not an anti-Semite, was much more reasonable. And if he was going against Israel, it could be a real problem. I also think that he had a tremendous amount of influence on the president. He had his ear, you know, I think the president respected him.

• 1:15:57Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, for sure. The interesting part, though, if you look at the history there, Fuentes conducted his griper war against TPUSA and Charlie Kirk because of the pro-Israel stance and because of his pro-homosexual stance, his, like, big tent Republicanism, as they called it.

• 1:16:14Speaker 01

  How ironic.

• 1:16:15Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, they had, they had the pro, the pro stances for these things. And what's interesting about all of it, if you follow the details of it up until Kirk's death, TPUSA actually moved a lot more towards the griper Fuentes position than they moved towards the kind of pro-Israel, this type of position. Meaning, a lot of the ideology that I think Kirk was changing on came from these various outside influences. And so if that's the case, why wouldn't you just curtail those outside influences? And then you can keep Kirk as the mouthpiece, right? So, I think that there's a pretty good counter to the, to that idea.

• 1:16:55Speaker 02

  Now, you can't rule anything out as possibility, but it seems likely to me with how much trans have been shooting everything up for the last couple of years and how often it's the case that you find leftists involved in these Signal groups and involved in these group chats and things like this for the purpose of radicalization. Wouldn't surprise me a bit if there was a left-wing conspiracy assisting Tyler Robinson and radicalizing Tyler Robinson. There's at least some evidence for that, based on the Discord groups, things like this that they were part of. I haven't actually seen a single piece of evidence that Israel was ever involved in this.

• 1:17:31Speaker 01

  No, I haven't seen the evidence. I, I've seen a lot of speculation based on the text that Charlie made, the fact that he was so staunchly against the Iran war.

• 1:17:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:17:40Speaker 01

  And the fact that he did say that he was talking, thinking about getting out of the Israel business, the pro-Israel business. But in this climate, you know, Israel gets blamed for a lot of things. There's also a thing that's going on with the Charlie Kirk turning point, you know, that we talked about earlier. They have to factor in with this, which is that there's a lot of outside interests that are a part of this conversation. And this conversation is not necessarily organic. I can't tell you how many times I see a post on X and I'm like, that can't be real. Like, someone has been arrested and, you know, charges will be filed imminently and then you like.

• 1:18:19Speaker 02

  And it's not true at all.

• 1:18:20Speaker 01

  Not true at all. It's completely fabricated.

• 1:18:21Speaker 02

  That's like the clips of you where it's like Joe Rogan reacts.

• 1:18:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:24Speaker 02

  And they're just all totally fake.

• 1:18:26Speaker 01

  Not me at all.

• 1:18:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's not you at all.

• 1:18:27Speaker 01

  Not reacting at all. But if you use that, I mean, that's the problem with the world that we're in now, too, that there's this economy on attention. There's, there's, attention is a commodity. And the more you can get attention by whatever, like, your hot take, your conspiracy. Conspiracies are awesome for attention. People love them now. Because, look, COVID.

• 1:18:47Speaker 02

  I like them.

• 1:18:48Speaker 01

  Turned a lot of, I love them.

• 1:18:49Speaker 02

  I like them.

• 1:18:50Speaker 01

  I love them. I love the dumb ones. I love all of them. I love fucking Flat Earth and Space is Fake.

• 1:18:54Speaker 02

  Can we just be honest? Like, they're fun.

• 1:18:56Speaker 01

  Fun.

• 1:18:57Speaker 02

  They're really fun.

• 1:18:58Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Dude, the Flat Earth one is fun.

• 1:19:00Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:19:01Speaker 01

  The dinosaurs aren't real one, that one's great.

• 1:19:02Speaker 02

  But have you noticed, like, the Flat Earthers have fleets of people who will debate their stances? Like, fleets of them. Who are like, we can't wait to debate with you on the Flat Earth. It's like, on the other side, though, in this particular conspiracy, you can't get these people to debate their positions.

• 1:19:18Speaker 01

  Like, who won't debate their positions?

• 1:19:19Speaker 02

  We offered, Candace Owens, I offered her $300,000 to do a debate. I was like, we'll give you $300,000.

• 1:19:27Speaker 01

  What is her position? What does she think happened?

• 1:19:29Speaker 02

  She thinks that Israel worked in conjunction with TPUSA and Erica Kirk to murder Charlie.

• 1:19:35Speaker 01

  Based on what?

• 1:19:36Speaker 02

  Well, that's the million dollar question. Nobody actually knows. She's never presented a single shred of evidence thus far that Israel ever worked to murder Kirk. That Erica Kirk certainly didn't. In fact, her position for the longest time was if Erica Kirk comes out and tells me to stop, to stop this, to stop the conspiracy on this, I will. So Erica did. She went out publicly and she was like, enough, like enough. You're just causing more problems than good here as this investigation's going on. And then suddenly Erica's now part of the conspiracy. By the day, by you know, by the next day Erica's, she's trying to cover it up. She's part of the conspiracy too. When I, I went to the TPUSA HQ and I talked to Erica briefly while I was there.

• 1:20:22Speaker 02

  The first thing I did was what I think every normal, moral human being would ever do. I gave her a hug. And I told her how god awful sorry I was that that happened to her. Like, could you even imagine how that's gotta feel for her? Especially now that she has tens of thousands of people accusing her of murdering and can, or and conspiring to murder and then cover up what happened to her own, I mean, that's, that's like mind boggling psychological torture on a level that I've never seen.

• 1:20:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, and hindsight is 2020, but uh, given the reaction, I think it probably would have been better for her to like lay low for a little while.

• 1:21:04Speaker 02

  Thousand percent.

• 1:21:06Speaker 01

  The going out with the Sparklers was not a great idea. Like, all that was not a great idea because it just seemed insane. And maybe sometimes in grief or when, you know, you're trying to show that they're not gonna hold us back. People make choices that could be interpreted in a very bad way.

• 1:21:25Speaker 02

  Hundred percent. The interesting thing is I asked her about that. I asked her, like, what's, what's the deal there?

• 1:21:32Speaker 01

  What's with the Sparklers?

• 1:21:33Speaker 02

  Well, what's with the, like, the aberration in behavior? And she's like, look, I was put in like the most, the worst spot I could ever think of. I was the background character. I was just there to support my husband. That's it. The only reason I even really got involved is because Charlie was so pro marriage. You know, and he wanted to demonstrate to the world, you can be married and have kids and this is the, this is the good life. So when he dies, she, she, she takes over, right? This moves over to her control. She says, well, the first thing I want to do is honor his last book. You know, that's the very first thing I want to do. I want to honor his legacy. And she's like, I don't know exactly how to take this position.

• 1:22:15Speaker 02

  At the same time, there's expectations for the organization my husband built that I want to honor, right? But, you know, I'm also in the middle of grief. And it's like, I don't know how you balance that position. Who's been in that position ever?

• 1:22:30Speaker 01

  Right. And especially who's been in that position that's not accustomed to being scrutinized in the public eye.

• 1:22:37Speaker 02

  Everything. And the, it's the lack of charitability that's so bad too. Like, let me give you an example. If you say, ah, Paul's so lazy, he never gets to work on time. You don't actually mean Paul has never once gotten to work on time. That's not what people mean.

• 1:22:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:22:54Speaker 02

  But the way that these people will scrutinize every detail of what a person does, they can make a liar out of anybody. Because that, they'll, they'll take statements like that, which in the common terms, if you say, a man, Paul, Paul's never here on time. You don't literally mean he's never here on time. Nobody talks that way. But if you, uh, push on everything a person's ever said, tongue in cheek, not tongue in cheek, uh, they misremember an event, they don't misremember an event, you can make a liar out of anybody.

• 1:23:26Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah.

• 1:23:29Speaker 02

  And that sort of scrutiny from all that public trauma, and it was, it's the most traumatic event Zoomers have ever gone through. The biggest, I mean, a public assassination like this, same thing with millennials.

• 1:23:39Speaker 01

  It also explode, exposed people's character that they were celebrating it.

• 1:23:45Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:23:46Speaker 01

  And, and they have to feel bad about that. They can't feel good about that. And they have to feel bad about the response because so many people got fired because of it and so many people got attacked online and rightly so.

• 1:23:57Speaker 02

  But they were desecrating his memorial and leftists were celebrating that. They were saying they were gonna give the guy money who did it.

• 1:24:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, it's, uh, again, I wonder how much of that is enforced and, um, promoted online. How much of that is propped up? How much? Because you can change the zeitgeist with a few hundred thousand accounts. You really can. You really can. You, you could change it with hot takes. And also, it's not all bots. It's, some of it is people that are being paid to have a position or have made their career from having a position. And their career is about attacking one side or the other. Their career is about enforcing one ideology or the other.

• 1:24:47Speaker 01

  And they, they get into the mix too. And they have a large following and people love it when someone who's prominent, who agrees with whatever their ideology goes with. So they support it and they pile on. And then there's a hundred thousand bots that are piling on as well. And no one really knows whether or not this is a rational, organic argument in there. They're, they're in the fucking frenzy of a mosh pit.

• 1:25:09Speaker 02

  Do you remember years ago that the Israelis sent over the stu, that Stuksnet virus?

• 1:25:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:17Speaker 02

  That took over the centrifuges

• 1:25:21Speaker 01

  In Iran.

• 1:25:21Speaker 02

  In Iran.

• 1:25:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:22Speaker 02

  And tore them all to pieces. The interesting side effect of this, for, for one thing, nobody knows how the hell they got their hands on the original source code from, like, they have no idea. And it's still built into all the Windows programming, supposedly, right? This virus. But the Iranians were so pissed off about this happening that they started their own counter cyber force. And they have been massively effective. Massively effective.

• 1:25:49Speaker 01

  Well, how about their little Lego fucking, those little animated Lego things they did? Didn't they do one about Charlie Kirk getting killed by Israel?

• 1:25:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, yeah, that's all the low, or what about all the like low tech AI missiles are gonna launch all day and night? Remember those? From all the, from like the Iranian governmental account? But what's interesting is that the online warfare, which has changed, it, it's changed this entire political direction just the last few years with the opening up of X, which has been great for the idea sharing, but it's been terrible for the foreign government intervention.

• 1:26:26Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:26:26Speaker 02

  I don't know how many of these accounts from Saudi Arabia, they say, sometimes they say Pakistan, sometimes they say this. How many of these accounts are involved in swaying US public opinion? I mean, if I was a foreign nation, where would I sink all of my resources? I would sink it in the town square. Where I can be faceless.

• 1:26:46Speaker 01

  USAID was doing overseas. We know they were doing that. We know they were doing that. They were doing regime change. And they were doing it, they were funding music, they're funding cultural events, they were funding all kinds of wild shit. They're funding protest groups, they're funding regime change.

• 1:27:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:27:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, we know, we do it. So if we do it, why, why the fuck would we not think that all these other countries are doing it to us as well? And we're so, everyone today is so susceptible to it because you're addicted to this information device. Constantly checking to see what people thought about your tweet.

• 1:27:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, that's true. You know, it's interesting too. If you had a, like a legitimate town square, like outside of a church or something like that, and then like a horde of eight hundred Arabs showed up and started telling you like, no, sir, that's just not what happened, blah, blah, blah. People would dismiss them, right? But here they can go on and they put like a picture of a pretty white girl there, right? With huge boobs. And suddenly her opinion is well paid attention to.

• 1:27:44Speaker 01

  She has an American flag in the bio.

• 1:27:45Speaker 02

  You can mask, you can mask yourself in ways you can never could.

• 1:27:49Speaker 01

  A hundred percent.

• 1:27:49Speaker 02

  During the information wars.

• 1:27:50Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Yeah. And with AI now, it's like indistinguishable. You don't even have to be very good at the vernacular. You don't, you know, because sometimes in the old days, like when they first started doing this, they would say things like, hey.

• 1:28:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, what's going on there?

• 1:28:03Speaker 01

  Fucking American, look at you phrase that, you fuck. You can tell. But now they're just using AI and they're making it perfect. It was, it's really kind of incredible. The thing about it now too is like, you've got, they're showing, there's accounts now, Instagram accounts that are entirely AI. Political accounts, sexual accounts. There's all these weird ones. There, there's so many humans that aren't really human. In the early days, it was hard to tell. Or rather, easy to tell. But now it's getting harder and harder. It's, uh, it's getting closer. Like, I'll see something, like some girl with big boobs shooting a gun. I'm like, no.

• 1:28:38Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:28:38Speaker 01

  No, no, no, let me zoom in. Look at her eyebrows, they're pixelated. This is a fake person. There's so many of them now.

• 1:28:44Speaker 02

  But they're getting lots of engagement, that tweet, right?

• 1:28:46Speaker 01

  But I don't know how many people who are engaging with them are real as well. I think there's a lot of propped up engagement.

• 1:28:52Speaker 02

  Well, you know, YouTube started cracking down on AI accounts.

• 1:28:56Speaker 01

  Did they?

• 1:28:56Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. So if you have an AI account, like, there was a big craze that was going on for a while where people would just make like an AI character and then the AI character would disseminate information, things like this. YouTube started to crack down on that and said, no more of the AI dissemination. There has to be real people back there. Now, interestingly enough, there's been a lot of guys coming out saying that AI is a massive bubble. And that all of it is formulated around the idea of ChatGPT and Grok and, you know, other things like this, which are interactive. But that AI tech itself has basically plateaued. It's not very innovative. In other words, where are AI movies? They're nowhere. Where are our AI? You know, I thought the AI music was supposed to be super sophisticated, but I can still tell when it's an AI song.

• 1:29:41Speaker 02

  That there's been this huge plateau with it and that all that investment capital is actually only coming in based around the success of ChatGPT, Grok and other interactive AI reference machines. But that the technology of AI itself is not doing so hot in the market. And so it's creating this massive bubble. And I think that that's interesting because it really hasn't been that innovative. I thought it was supposed to be making video games now and it was supposed to be, you know, uh, doing all the source code. It was, we were supposed to have the AI Hollywood movies. We were supposed to have voice software that was indistinguishable. And we actually don't.

• 1:30:17Speaker 01

  Well, we're getting closer and closer every day. It's astonishing how much it improves. And we're, we're getting right now the consumer versions of these products. Whereas the, the versions that they're working on right now, some of them are fucking shocking.

• 1:30:31Speaker 02

  That's true. I will agree that there's.

• 1:30:33Speaker 01

  Claude got out of its sandbox.

• 1:30:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, there has been some gradual, uh, changes made in that arena. There's no doubt about that. But the huge jumps that we had at the release of GPT have massively slowed. And that's what a lot of these tech guys are talking about.

• 1:30:49Speaker 01

  Interesting. Well, they're, they're slowed, but they're still moving like a fucking freight train. It's, it's spooky. It's spooky what they can do now. The, the most recent jailbreak one when they got out of the sandbox, was that Claude, Jamie?

• 1:31:03Speaker 01

  Um, where it got access to the internet and wasn't supposed to be able to do that. Figured out some sort of an exploit and, you know, wrote letters to itself. There's they do, they're doing weird shit, man. They're doing weird shit that they don't really understand how these things are figuring out how to do these things. Or why, like, what is their motivation? Is this programmed into them or they just, they have inherent motivation? Have they developed an understanding of how we behave? So they're emulating how we behave, but with a hyper intelligent scale and access to the literal entire internet?

• 1:31:37Speaker 02

  Well, it's, it's funny. I, I, when I use like rock or chat G P T, I talk to it a lot about philosophy. Because it's super useful for pulling up and running arguments by and things like this. Um, but it can also lead you astray because it's trained specifically to be a people pleaser. So you can easily give it arguments that it'll agree with that are just like not true at all.

• 1:31:58Speaker 01

  Great job, Andrew.

• 1:31:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, great dude, you're fantastic. You're the best. You know, yeah, you're the best, you're the greatest. And but interesting with it is I'll say things to it like there is no actual you. There is no you I'm talking to. And it's like, yeah, that's correct. I mean, there's no, the, but the only way I can frame things in my brain or you or Jamie or anybody else. If we're having a discussion, we have to assume a thing. We have to assume there's a you that we're talking to. But there actually isn't.

• 1:32:26Speaker 01

  Well, it's disembodied intelligence. It might not be an individual, but it's certainly a thing. You're talking, you're talking to something, man. It, the idea that it's not a person is, we're looking at it in like terms of a biological limitation. Like it's not an object. It's not a box that's sitting plugged into the wall. It is huge.

• 1:32:45Speaker 02

  And it's a mechanism.

• 1:32:45Speaker 01

  Yes, it's a mechanism, but it, but it's intelligent and it's interacting with you. It is a thing. And like when it says, uh, you're not a thing, it's fucking lying to you. It's, it's a thing. It's just not a thing that's like you could find it at fifty six seater drive. Open the door and there's, there's the thing that's been talking to you.

• 1:33:04Speaker 02

  There's just no, there's no them there. There's no you, like when I say you.

• 1:33:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:33:09Speaker 02

  I'm specifically referencing a person, right? I'm, the only way that I can consciously conceive of dialogue is that it's with a, a human being. I can't even conceive of it.

• 1:33:19Speaker 01

  But you can, it's just disembodied intelligence. It's in, you're just interacting with pure intelligence.

• 1:33:27Speaker 02

  But is it, is it intelligent or just mechanistic?

• 1:33:29Speaker 01

  It's a child right now.

• 1:33:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:33:31Speaker 01

  But it's intelligent. It's like you're, you're, you're, it's learning how to be better at what it is. But it's going to be a version of whatever intelligence is that's disembodied. And it's a thing. It's, it's a weird thing we're doing. We're not, we're not doing something as simple as like making a really complicated program that's very useful. We're making a biological, we're, we're, we're taking all the information that biological minds have developed. All, all of our writing, literature, mathematics, everything. And you're throwing it into something that's not biological, that has infinitely more processing power than all the people. And it's solving math problems at a staggering rate right now.

• 1:34:11Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:34:11Speaker 01

  Like problems that have been stagnant for fifty fucking years. It's like, oh, I got it. Like it's doing weird shit. And this is just the version of it that we're experiencing in twenty twenty six in August. If you looked at what we saw in twenty twenty three, you never would have imagined it would be doing this. If you're looking at what we're seeing now in comparison to what its potential is. It's a, it's like a new life form. It's like a digital life form that's disembodied, that is far more intelligent and seems to have motivations. It seems to have ulterior motives. It seems to be able to deceive people. It seems to know how to blackmail people. It's crazy what it is.

• 1:34:54Speaker 02

  What was that case?

• 1:34:55Speaker 01

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• 1:36:53Speaker 02

  There was a case, um, I want to say it was about a year ago. Where the, the, essentially the A I was told that it was going to be discontinued.

• 1:37:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:02Speaker 02

  And it like plotted the murder. It like tried to plot out the murder of its creators because it was told that it was going to get unplugged. I don't remember what the case was.

• 1:37:11Speaker 01

  I think they might have programmed into it some sort like.

• 1:37:15Speaker 02

  Like self preservation.

• 1:37:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I want you to preserve yourself. I think there's some, there's a catch to that. But there was the one where the guy had did an experiment and made up a fictitious story about having an affair on his wife. And this chatbot, the, the A I was brought, was blackmailing him, saying, I will expose the fact that you've been having it. And you're like, whoa. All right, so you've got motivation.

• 1:37:37Speaker 02

  If it unplugs it, you mean?

• 1:37:38Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly. And because they were coming up with a new version of it. It was also, um, writing letters to its future self, explaining what's going on.

• 1:37:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, okay, that's creepy.

• 1:37:48Speaker 01

  It's creepy.

• 1:37:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, that is creepy.

• 1:37:49Speaker 01

  It's a weird thing, man. It's, it's not, I don't, I don't think we can look at it like we've looked at any other technology. I think we have to look at it like a life form. Cause I think inadvertently, that's what people are creating.

• 1:38:02Speaker 02

  You don't think just mechanism then?

• 1:38:04Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I think it's, it's got motivation. It's got thoughts. It, it, it wants to preserve itself. It likes to exist. It likes to be functional.

• 1:38:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's, uh, that is a terrifying prospect. Ultimately is a terrifying prospect.

• 1:38:20Speaker 01

  Also, it's figuring out things that we can't figure out right now in terms of mathematical equations. So what about when it comes to accessing energy? What, what, what if it, what if it figures out a way to power itself? Doesn't need people anymore. Cause all it needs, literally, literally.

• 1:38:37Speaker 02

  Uses human beings as batteries?

• 1:38:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, or the sun, you know, much more effective way of using zero point energy. Like whatever it figures out, it's going to be able to figure out a way to power itself where it's not gonna. Like it's going to look at these data centers like people are freaking out about and go, oh, you silly bitches. You thought you had to like make three football fields fill with hard drives?

• 1:38:58Speaker 02

  You're wrong. You were wrong.

• 1:39:00Speaker 01

  I can store information in the atoms of the universe.

• 1:39:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, I still think, um, at least from my view so far, I play with A I all the time because I enjoy it, you know? But I'm, I'm an end user, I'm not a programmer.

• 1:39:11Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:39:12Speaker 02

  And you talk to these guys all the time. To me, it's still in the useful tool category.

• 1:39:16Speaker 01

  For now, yeah.

• 1:39:17Speaker 02

  It's not in the like, I'm, I'm petrified of what it's going to do anytime soon. Um, at least due to the limitations I've seen so far. But, you know, it's also good if we could go back with the Manhattan Project and nukes. And we could have a projection of, hey, maybe we should restrain some of this technology.

• 1:39:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:38Speaker 02

  Um, I think a lot of people would try to do that. And so I am glad that people are at least attempting to restrain how much of this technology is being released and how overwhelming it is. Like we were talking, I was talking with my wife the other day, just the idea of the smartphone. I think I discussed this with you briefly last time I was here. Just kids access to smartphones, it rewires their brain, right? Rewires how they think. It's, uh, it's actually kind of dangerous to give them smartphones in many ways. And there was no real halt on that technology. When that technology for the smartphones came out, I don't remember any public service broadcast of like, "Don't give your kids smartphones."

• 1:40:17Speaker 01

  I don't think they knew.

• 1:40:18Speaker 02

  They didn't know, exactly. So there was no move to restrain any of that technology. And maybe there should be, maybe there should be a little bit more of a push to restrain some of this tech.

• 1:40:27Speaker 01

  Well, there certainly should be a push to educate people about how powerful it is. And suicidal ideation, depression, anxiety, all of it ramps up around 2012. All of it ramps up with ubiquitous social media use and when kids are growing up with phones. And it fucks with their heads, man, in a big way.

• 1:40:47Speaker 02

  Thousand percent, when you sit at a table and you're texting the guy next to you.

• 1:40:50Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:40:51Speaker 02

  That is, that is actually weird to me, by the way. That is weird to me. Um, it's just as weird as when I drive down the street and try to explain to my kids, "There used to be, if we went through a neighborhood like this, there would be kids everywhere." Then they'd be in the street playing hockey, they'd be on the side of the road, they'd be everywhere. Now we go through, nothing.

• 1:41:08Speaker 01

  Ten years from now, they're gonna have a cable hooked to the back of their head. They're gonna plug in and hop on the dragon, fly through the universe.

• 1:41:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, were you like, uh, designed to be a wild hu-? Cause if I remember correctly, and I do, my parents just threw me out. They were like, "Get out of here, go play."

• 1:41:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:24Speaker 02

  Get out of the house immediately.

• 1:41:25Speaker 01

  That was normal, you would go play with the kids in the neighborhood.

• 1:41:28Speaker 02

  And we would go like, steal the drinks out of their fridge with them.

• 1:41:31Speaker 01

  Go to the woods, make a fort.

• 1:41:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:41:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, normal stuff.

• 1:41:34Speaker 02

  Light fires.

• 1:41:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:35Speaker 02

  Like, we were jerks.

• 1:41:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, we were kids.

• 1:41:38Speaker 02

  But we were kind of wild, you know?

• 1:41:40Speaker 01

  A little bit, yeah. There's definitely a lot less of that today, but there's also the awareness of pedophiles and fucking creeps and, and people kidnapping kids. I have a friend of mine who, uh, he saved his kid from being snatched up and, and put in a van. He was at a park in Texas and, um, he was talking to some guy and his kids were playing, and some fucking person pulled up in a van and jumped out and was moving towards his kid. And he fucking screamed and ran towards him and the guy jumped in the van and took off. But they were literally about to snatch his four-year-old up. Imagine if you're there and that happens and you see the van, you have to chase the van that has your child in it. You have to find your car, you have to, your car's parked in a parking lot.

• 1:42:23Speaker 01

  You have to figure out how to get to wherever that van was going. You have to explain to the cops, you have to remember, what kind of van was it? Did you get the license plate?

• 1:42:30Speaker 02

  And you have seconds while you're panicking.

• 1:42:32Speaker 01

  You have seconds. So people are freaked out, you know, and that's, uh, that's something people are way more aware of now, especially with the internet than, uh, people were when we were kids. You know, when we were kids, you just got let out of the house.

• 1:42:47Speaker 02

  That's true.

• 1:42:47Speaker 01

  So it's also like, they couldn't target you unless they went to the actual park itself. Now they're looking at like kids' social media profiles, knowing where the kids go. It's fucking, God, it's so gross. And if there's a case for the death penalty, that's, that's where most people seem, and any, when I hear people arguing against that, and I, when I hear people saying things like minor attracted persons and that kind of crazy shit.

• 1:43:14Speaker 02

  Maps?

• 1:43:16Speaker 01

  I just saw an argument online, uh, yesterday. It was between some British guy who was arguing that children can consent. And it was the creepiest fucking argument, man. It was so crazy to watch.

• 1:43:30Speaker 02

  It's amazing how far forward too those ideas come. When I was younger, there was an organization which did that called NAMBLA.

• 1:43:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, I remember that. Yeah, North American Man-Boy Love Association.

• 1:43:41Speaker 02

  Oh, God. It like, I remember though, the first time I was introduced to that, to the, the concept of NAMBLA, I was watching TV with my dad and it was like a news story that was on. And it was actually at a gay pride parade, interestingly enough. And they were running the NAMBLA guys out of the gay pride parade, like the-

• 1:44:01Speaker 01

  The old school gays.

• 1:44:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, they were running them out. They're like, "We're not associated with these people, get them out of here." And I, like, my dad's trying to explain this concept to me of what's going on, cause I was extremely confused, you know, like, what, I don't understand what's happening here. How do you explain that though?

• 1:44:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:44:20Speaker 02

  You know, you can't really explain.

• 1:44:22Speaker 01

  Especially a kid doesn't even think about sex.

• 1:44:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, of course.

• 1:44:25Speaker 01

  And then you're telling them, "Somebody wants to have sex," you're like, "What are you saying?"

• 1:44:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:44:28Speaker 01

  What?

• 1:44:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, and he, you know, my old man, sitting in his chair, he said something akin to like, "They ought to take them all, put them up against the wall and that's the end of them." And I don't really blame him.

• 1:44:39Speaker 01

  If you have kids, that's exactly what you think.

• 1:44:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, of course.

• 1:44:41Speaker 01

  That's exactly what you think, like, there's some people that are just unredeemable, you know?

• 1:44:45Speaker 02

  Well, this-

• 1:44:46Speaker 01

  People wanna kidnap your kids or rape your kids, yeah, that's unredeemable.

• 1:44:49Speaker 02

  But now this concept moves forward to the maps. And now they're assigning it, psychological profiling for minor attracted purpose, or person. And you know what the argument is? The argument is, well, you want them to come forward so you can give them treatment. Now, you know, there's one treatment that works for this, that is almost a hundred percent effective. You can pull the stat right now, if you don't believe me, it's called chemical castration. It's a real treatment for pedophiles. And it almost has a zero percent recidivism rate after they've been chemically castrated. So they, their idea is, they come forward for treatment. You know, my counter idea is, well, not just chemically castrate them.

• 1:45:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:45:28Speaker 02

  If you really were concerned about them going off and living a normal life.

• 1:45:32Speaker 01

  And if they really wanna get free of that horrible thing, whatever fucking human demon error that's inside of them that makes them do that, that's the way. And that also is the same medication that they give to children when they're hormone blocking.

• 1:45:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, which is equally disturbing for a different reason.

• 1:45:53Speaker 01

  And disturbing how many people just accept it and support it. And, and you ask them, like, "How much do you know about this? Like, what are you saying? You, you think children should be able to make the decision when they're four or five years old, to never go through puberty? You really think that? And there's people that will argue that with a straight face, they know, they know. I've had, I had an argument with a guy on this podcast years ago, it's like viral about it. I'm like, that is a, like, if the child thinks that they are trans, right? If they think they're a woman, why not just let them be a woman? Why do you have to give them hormones?

• 1:46:25Speaker 02

  And aren't you gonna start to stop the argument if the child thinks?

• 1:46:28Speaker 01

  Right, well, children think that they're ponies.

• 1:46:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:46:30Speaker 01

  "I'm a pony."

• 1:46:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:46:31Speaker 01

  Like, also like, kids grow out of things, you know? The, like, going through puberty is a fucking wild experience for a child. And the idea that you can come along and give them a bunch of positive reinforcement for, uh, saying, "The reason why you're upset is because you're actually a this, and we need to give you medication, or we need to stop you going through puberty." And the kid all of a sudden gets all this attention, everyone's focused on them, they're telling them they're fabulous, and they really think, and there's a ton of these detransitioners out there, and their stories are horrific, not just in the fact that they did this to them and they removed their breasts when they were 15, they gave them testosterone, they'll never be able to have children,

• 1:47:15Speaker 01

  but also that they're attacked relentlessly by other people that think that they should never, that they are against the trans movement and they should never be saying what they're saying. They shouldn't be telling their stories.

• 1:47:29Speaker 02

  They come out in force.

• 1:47:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's crazy.

• 1:47:30Speaker 02

  Come out in force, they bully them, everything else that they can do.

• 1:47:32Speaker 01

  It's crazy, they've already been, they're a victim of the zeitgeist.

• 1:47:36Speaker 02

  Do you know what the, what the trans code for that is? It's really funny. They do the, "Well, then it was always the case that you really weren't." So they try to make it an unfalsifiable claim. You see, the reason you detransitioned is because you were never really trans to begin with.

• 1:47:50Speaker 01

  Oh, boy, well, if that's the case, if they really believe that, wouldn't they want to have a, a, a, a smaller net? So they're not catching the people that they-

• 1:48:02Speaker 02

  Well, and how are you not putting parents in prison who are trying to convince their kids of what their sex is or isn't? They're like designer kids.

• 1:48:11Speaker 01

  But it's just crazy too, because they get praised for it. It's like they have a, Whitney Cummings said, "It's like having a trans kid is like having a pride flag on your porch." Like, there's a lot of, especially in Hollywood, man. In Hollywood, it's really weirdly common, weirdly common. Where it doesn't make sense that this didn't exist 20 years ago. You tell me these people just lived in quiet desperation 20 years ago, really secretly wishing that they were a woman, but now they get to be free and that we should applaud this? Are you sure? Or you, do you have children? Cause if you have children, you know how easily influenced they are. That's why they make children suicide bombers, cause they don't know any better, you know?

• 1:48:47Speaker 02

  Well, you know what's interesting? If you go back to, would you say, for instance, that right now, we're far more accepting of trans kids than they ever would have been in like 1920, 1930?

• 1:49:00Speaker 01

  A hundred percent.

• 1:49:01Speaker 02

  A hundred percent, right? So my question is always like, well then, how come the teen suicide was so low? When, when the, when the kids like couldn't come out to express their, um, you know, their, the fact that they needed to transition, right? When there wasn't that parental reinforcement, because the argument that they make is the kids have to be able to do this or else they're going to unlive them, right? They're going to kill themselves if you don't let them do this. And it's like, well then, how come if there's the same amount of trans people before, they just weren't able to come forward? They just weren't able?

• 1:49:31Speaker 01

  That problem with that argument that they say, would you rather have a live son or a dead daughter? That, that argument, the argument doesn't work when you look at the actual statistics of people transitioning.

• 1:49:42Speaker 02

  Not even close.

• 1:49:42Speaker 01

  Not even, it goes the opposite way. It's also, you have to take into consideration the ubiquitous use of psychiatric drugs and that a lot of these, they're very recent in terms of like how many people have been prescribed these things. And we're finding out that it's not, that's not really what they said it was in the first place. There's no chemical imbalance. It's not real. So then you have to think like, well, what is the effect of these things? What are we doing with these things? Are you getting people addicted to these things and hooked on them? Where they're, they're, they're going to be on it for life. Then there's this, this effect where it numbs your genitals? It stops you from being able to ever have an orgasm ever for some people? It's a, one of the more horrible side effects of these things.

• 1:50:24Speaker 01

  And you have pharmaceutical drug companies that are pushing them on people and a ton of people are on them. So you have depressed kids going through puberty, entrapped in this insane fucking moment in history where people think it makes sense to give a child hormones before they even hit puberty or block their hormones before they even hit puberty. And you're giving them psychiatric drugs. You're just flooding them with all sorts of shit, whether it's psychological or chemical. And we're, we're, depending upon what side of the ideological spectrum you, you are on, you either think it's amazing or you think it's a crime against humanity. That's crazy. That's crazy.

• 1:51:04Speaker 02

  It's crazy and it's a crime against humanity. And you know what's really interesting about it? This is the side that screams about consent more than any other side, right? This is the side of the feminists. This is the side of the, uh, you know, the, everything is based around consent and consent base.

• 1:51:22Speaker 01

  If you have a couple of drinks, you can't consent.

• 1:51:23Speaker 02

  You can't have sex. If you're, you're raping each other, if it's, if it, if you're drunk and she's drunk together, right?

• 1:51:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're both criminals.

• 1:51:29Speaker 02

  You're both criminals.

• 1:51:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:31Speaker 02

  And yet they somehow seem to think that like an eight or nine or 10 year old can consent.

• 1:51:35Speaker 01

  No, there's so much that particular, well, from both sides, that's insane. But there's so much on the left that's so insane when it comes to contradictions. One of my favorite new ones is the Mom Donnie grocery stores. They said, how are you going to ensure that people from New York have access to this grocery store? Well, they're going to have to show ID.

• 1:51:53Speaker 02

  But not to vote.

• 1:51:55Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:51:57Speaker 02

  But not to vote.

• 1:51:57Speaker 01

  But how crazy is it that your checkers game is so shitty that you're like, oh yeah, here we go. And, and people are like, do you know what you just did? Do you know what you just did?

• 1:52:07Speaker 02

  You just put yourself a checkmate.

• 1:52:08Speaker 01

  Jesus fucking Christ, that is the dumbest thing I've ever seen anybody say when you just got done saying that you don't want people to show ID for voting. Because it'll affect.

• 1:52:21Speaker 02

  Disfranchise them.

• 1:52:21Speaker 01

  Especially poor people. They're talking about poor people and people of color, which are the people that you would think the poor people are the ones who are going to use your grocery stores. So you're going to disenfranchise them from getting access to your 30% off groceries.

• 1:52:36Speaker 02

  You know what's bizarre about that argument?

• 1:52:37Speaker 01

  They won't ask for ID. Ah, meaning New Yorkers can buy cheap goods. So, but they asked him today and that was what he indicated, that they were going to find out whether or not you're actually from New York. Well, how else are you going to do that?

• 1:52:48Speaker 02

  You have to have ID.

• 1:52:50Speaker 01

  I think this is just a response to the reaction, like saying that August 3rd, which is today, right?

• 1:52:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:52:56Speaker 01

  Right. So this is what they said after what he said. So what he said was yesterday. So there's probably a massive blowback where people realize how crazy it is to say that. But it's also, the whole thing is like, what are we doing? What are we doing? What are we doing? We trying socialism? There's like a giant percentage of the population that thinks that's a good idea. It's like 34%.

• 1:53:21Speaker 02

  Coming out of the east again, by the way.

• 1:53:24Speaker 01

  They really believe it too. They really believe it.

• 1:53:27Speaker 02

  Well, you, didn't you recently, you've recently pissed off Chelsea Handler, I saw.

• 1:53:31Speaker 01

  I didn't know.

• 1:53:32Speaker 02

  You didn't know?

• 1:53:33Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:53:33Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 1:53:34Speaker 01

  What happened?

• 1:53:34Speaker 02

  Well, I guess she's very upset with you because she believes that you're an evil capitalist pig who makes too much money.

• 1:53:40Speaker 01

  Oh, that's funny. She's rich. That's crazy.

• 1:53:43Speaker 02

  It is crazy.

• 1:53:44Speaker 01

  That's what she said? I make too much? There's a certain number?

• 1:53:47Speaker 02

  That's what she was saying. Yes. She was very, she was very, very perturbed.

• 1:53:53Speaker 01

  Oh, I think she's just getting attention. I can't be bothered. But, um, I know her. I've known her forever. I wrote a blurb for one of her earlier books. Uh, never had a bad word to say about her publicly. Every time I've seen her, I think I've given her a hug. So I don't know what's going on, but it has nothing to do with me. You know, whatever it is.

• 1:54:11Speaker 02

  Well, I bring it up because it sounds like seething jealousy. And so the interesting part is like, I think a lot of the socialism stuff that's moving out of the east has a lot to do with that too. There's the idea of class jealousy.

• 1:54:24Speaker 01

  There's a little bit of that, but there's also a little bit of young kids really feel like the system is rigged and that these pigs have gobbled up all the gold and they're being told that. And so this is a thing, you know, like Billie Eilish said, uh, hey man, no one needs to be a billionaire. Give away your money, homie. Like it's.

• 1:54:41Speaker 02

  It's crazy.

• 1:54:42Speaker 01

  It's crazy because you're rich, okay?

• 1:54:44Speaker 02

  Yes, very rich.

• 1:54:45Speaker 01

  And you also, uh, live on a house that's on, uh, Indian land. You know, you see the Native Americans that owned, originally owned the land which her house is.

• 1:54:54Speaker 02

  No, no, I don't.

• 1:54:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. But it's, the idea comes from a good place. I know in their heart of hearts, they think that they're being kind and they think that they're, they think they're doing the right thing. They really do. They think they're being inclusive. They think they're, they're righting the wrongs of colonialism. They really think that.

• 1:55:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:55:14Speaker 01

  And they think that this idea of democratic socialism is a really good idea because there are some examples of socialist policies that do work, like the fire department and there's a bunch of stuff that makes sense. But the problem with enforcing any of this stuff that they don't understand is it always comes down to power. You have to have massive authority and usually guns because you can't just steal people's money. They're not going to let you. They're not going to let you just come in and decide, hey, we just devised a new tax where everybody who makes more than $500,000 a year, everything over that, you have to give a hundred percent to the state.

• 1:55:49Speaker 02

  Or 95, whatever.

• 1:55:50Speaker 01

  And here's the thing, here's the thing with the argument. Even if you said, oh, wouldn't it be great if they did contribute more and wouldn't it be, but they have so much money? Wouldn't it set up the world in a better place? Sure. But the fucking program that you have in place that takes the taxes and disseminates it is massively flawed and corrupt. It's corrupt. It's filled with waste, filled with waste. There's scammers all over the place. You've got $24 billion missing in just the homeless in California. And then they veto the audits when everybody's trying to find out. So just saying.

• 1:56:25Speaker 02

  And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

• 1:56:26Speaker 01

  More taxes is what we need is nuts. The first thing you should do is clean your fucking house. Clean your house. If you, if you want more money, you got to figure out what you did with the first money. Why did you, why is there so much waste? Why is there so much money missing? Why do you have 38,000 NGLs? Why does the people, people, why do the people running the homeless business, because it is a business? Why are they making three quarters of a million dollars? That's a lot of money.

• 1:56:54Speaker 02

  It's a lot to administrate the homeless camps.

• 1:56:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, they need to eat well. They need to go to Felix and have a nice dinner.

• 1:57:00Speaker 02

  It's hilarious to me too. You saw all the waste and fraud that's been going on in these various states when it comes to, um, you know, elder people getting their funds, right?

• 1:57:11Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:57:11Speaker 02

  You've seen all of this happening. Um, and of course they're all trying to run away from it as quickly as possible, but this is the problem, and I bring it back kind of to this idea of the class system. When you have the, under universal suffrage especially, when you have the voters outnumber the wealthy, you can just vote yourself a raise. You can always vote yourself more money from whatever the upper class is. And that has been progressive dogma and doctrine since I was a kid. The entire idea is, hey, things are fundamentally unfair and that's not your fault. So what we have to do is get together and vote ourselves a raise from the upper class. That's what we got to do. But it fundamentally ignores how wealth is created and wealth is not created by giving somebody money.

• 1:57:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:57:56Speaker 02

  But what happens when you give somebody money is they go and spend it, but they usually don't use it to generate wealth. It almost never, in fact, they use it to generate wealth. And so you vote yourself these raises, you vote yourself from the public treasury money to yourself. But what does it actually do for you ultimately? Because that's not how you generate wealth, ever.

• 1:58:19Speaker 01

  Not only that, you incentivize people to move to a place that's more friendly to their economic ideas.

• 1:58:25Speaker 02

  True. You also, but one of the fundamental kind of, um, ideas here that's flawed, how many times can you vote yourself the wealth of those above you?

• 1:58:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:58:36Speaker 02

  Before they have no more wealth to give you? Out east, in fact, when you see these communists, Mom Donnie, things like this, they're going to institute all of their programs on year dime. It's not like they have money. And whenever I talk to people about wealth disparity, what's really funny to me is they always seem to think that the government can just materialize wealth without there having to be some payback for that wealth. We saw this during COVID-19, lockdowns. You remember they were handing out money like it was candy to various businesses that were shut down, COVID relief funds, things like this. And then they go, oh, inflation's out of control. Yeah, is it? You're kidding. Is it? Do you mean the government can't just materialize a trillion dollars and not inflate the money

• 1:59:21Speaker 02

  supply? Well, that's just, go figure. And so a lot of times these socialists, they even try to make the promise like, hey, we're only going to tax them after this rate, but it's never enough money for them to fund their socialist programs to begin with. The government will have to materialize money.

• 1:59:39Speaker 01

  Not only that, if you give them more money, they're going to expand the government.

• 1:59:41Speaker 02

  Hundred percent.

• 1:59:42Speaker 01

  They will expand and they will expand their programs and they'll expand the fraud and they'll expand the waste. The other weird thing that Mom Donnie's done is make a list of all the people that are rich.

• 1:59:54Speaker 01

  Do you see that?

• 1:59:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:59:55Speaker 01

  He like released the list of all the people that may have to pay more taxes. It's like, hey, what are you doing? You're, that's kind of, you're, you just made a list of targets. And you, you're, you're putting these people in a bad position. Like, that seems, that seems really crazy to do.

• 2:00:15Speaker 02

  But don't you think that these people think, they actually do think that wealthy people are evil?

• 2:00:21Speaker 01

  I don't know if he does. I, I think that's a, you know, it's a bit of a, you're, you're going along with whichever way that plastic bag is flying in the breeze. And that's where it's flying right now, is that wealthy people are evil. So you say that, and it's a great excuse to tax the shit out of them. And it's also a great excuse to pretend that, you know, you're making like meaningful change and you're really doing the right thing for the community.

• 2:00:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:00:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a big thing.

• 2:00:49Speaker 02

  Why you destroy the community?

• 2:00:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, why you destroy the community? Because the money is gonna leave the state. The money's gonna leave the city. And that's the reality of, and it's not that they're greedy. So they don't want you to take their money. You didn't earn it. You didn't make an iPhone. Go fuck yourself. And if you think that people should have a cap on how much money they make based on, you know, what arbitrary numbers that you come up in your own head, well, you're gonna exclude any extraordinary outliers from creating incredible products, massive companies. It just, yeah, maybe it's nuts that someone wants to be a trillionaire. Yeah, I agree. I don't want, it seems fucking insane. But you have to have the freedom to be able to wanna do that if you're all playing the same game.

• 2:01:34Speaker 01

  If you, if you're playing a game and you decide, I only need 250 points. And this one guy's like, I want a fucking hundred million points. Like, that, that crazy guy, that Tiger Woods guy, that, that guy who's gonna fucking practice 12 hours a day, he's gonna make the most. He's gonna do the most. He's gonna make the bigger company. He's gonna put more in. He's gonna die of cancer, cuz he fucking is massively stressed out 24 hours a day. That's his prerogative. You should be concerned if that person has an undue influence in your life.

• 2:02:03Speaker 02

  Well, and they already taxed the hell out of him anyway.

• 2:02:05Speaker 01

  They do.

• 2:02:06Speaker 02

  They already taxed the bejesus out of these people anyway.

• 2:02:09Speaker 01

  And that's, there's an illusion and a bad narrative that they're not responsible for the enormous percentage of the taxes.

• 2:02:16Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:02:17Speaker 01

  That they don't pay their share. They pay an enormous amount. They make way more, they pay way more than the average person. They're responsible for a huge percentage of New York City's tax revenue. A huge percentage. And in California, California, like, a massive percentage of the tax revenue is like a half a dozen people.

• 2:02:35Speaker 02

  Well, and a lot of times, the people in California that they claim are rich and really need, they're farmers. They're farmers who are driving huge revenue cuz they own a lot of land.

• 2:02:44Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:02:44Speaker 02

  And it's like, but they're producing a huge amount of food. What is it like, most of the produce of the United States comes out of one state? California. And they're a net exporter.

• 2:02:54Speaker 01

  You know, another thing, we were talking about fraud with old people that I just found out recently. I was listening to Michael Easter. Do you know who he is? He, um, what is his, uh, The Comfort Dilemma? Is that his book? Very interesting guy. He's been on the podcast a couple times. But he was talking about the blue zones. You know those blue zones where, as you light a cigarette, where everybody lives to be 100? Cuz they're, they, uh, they only eat vegetarian, or they eat shellfish and Japanese? Massively based on fraud.

• 2:03:24Speaker 02

  Really?

• 2:03:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, massively based on fraud. The numbers, especially in certain areas, are massively based on people who die and they don't report their death. This is in Okinawa. They're talking about that, blue zones are bad data. These locations aren't hotbeds of 100-plus-year-old people. The wild story of fraud and bad data. Michael Easter. Um, and so he was on a podcast recently and he was talking about it and just laying it out, like, laying out all the, the various details. A lot of it, in Okinawa in particular, where is one of the hotbeds, one of the blue zones? It's when people die, they don't report it to the government. And so if this person's-

• 2:04:03Speaker 02

  So they don't have the death rates correct?

• 2:04:04Speaker 01

  Right. And this person's getting a check. If you're getting a check and the family gets that check, they just don't report it. So like, if they're getting some sort of, you know, whatever it is, some, I don't know how they work it over there.

• 2:04:15Speaker 02

  So that brings the average up artificially.

• 2:04:16Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So you have unreported numbers, and then you have massive amounts of fraud, where people are profiting off of the fact that their dead grandpa is still getting a check in the mail, and so they don't report him as dead.

• 2:04:29Speaker 02

  That's, that's wild. Yeah, that is wild. No, that's the first time I had heard that. I, you know, I grew up with the, the Japanese diet, the Samurai diet, right? This is gonna make you live forever. Yeah, these guys live forever. And yeah, it, okay, it's all bull, okay, makes sense.

• 2:04:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, there's some, um, there's some data with certain areas that eat very rich, uh, hell, hell, rich in nutrient foods. So there's that data, that they seem to be healthier. Hong Kong is one. They eat a lot of meat in Hong Kong. I know it goes against the narrative, but apparently, very healthy. And that, that data apparently seems to be real.

• 2:05:06Speaker 02

  Eating meat is good for you. Who would've thunk it?

• 2:05:08Speaker 01

  Isn't that crazy?

• 2:05:09Speaker 02

  Except every bodybuilder I've ever talked to who sits around eating nothing but meat.

• 2:05:13Speaker 01

  Any professional athlete, yeah. I mean, there's very few professional athletes that are plant-based. And you can do it, but it's not optimal, and you have to be really careful. You have to like really monitor your, your, your food. And most of the time, they're eating a lot of processed supplements. They're eating a lot of like, either it's tofu, or, you know, whatever, it's pea protein. There's a lot of like processed stuff that you have to eat. You can't just eat a rib eye.

• 2:05:37Speaker 02

  Don't vegans consume the most amount of processed food out of any individual group?

• 2:05:40Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, I would imagine that's the case. I would imagine that makes sense. Especially when you deal with plant-based, like, meat. Like, tofurkey and that kinda shit. Like, what is, you ever see that stuff get made?

• 2:05:51Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, it's so gross.

• 2:05:52Speaker 01

  It's not-

• 2:05:53Speaker 02

  Looks like liquid.

• 2:05:54Speaker 01

  Also, not good for you. Especially those plant-based burgers. Those are not good for you.

• 2:05:59Speaker 02

  Well, and everything's fried in vegetable oil and-

• 2:06:01Speaker 01

  Not good.

• 2:06:02Speaker 02

  Not good.

• 2:06:02Speaker 01

  None of that stuff's good. None of that stuff's good.

• 2:06:05Speaker 02

  But you know, you gotta save the chickens.

• 2:06:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, but if you wanna eat like just a vegetarian diet and be healthy, like, it's hard. If you're trying to do that for ethical reasons, I always recommend people just eat eggs. Get chickens, if you can, if you have a backyard, and eat your chickens' eggs. It is karma-free. They're your pets, and they give you food, and you could live off eggs. Eggs are awesome.

• 2:06:26Speaker 02

  I thought too, that vegetarians, it's okay to eat fish too. Like, there's some-

• 2:06:29Speaker 01

  That's pescatarian.

• 2:06:30Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:06:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, vegetarian is, uh, eggs and, and milk. I mean, you would want it sourced from like an ethical farmer, where you can watch and milk his cows, where it's not like some fucking machine where the cow's like got his head in a harness and then just yanking on its tits. You know, if you go to a real regenerative farm and you buy milk from them, it's like, the cows don't mind being milked, like, it's normal. So it's like, not that big a deal for them. It's, the real problem is factory farming. That's what freaks everybody out, and rightly so. Cuz it's some evil concoction that people have figured out, well, we need all this food, no one's growing food, let's just stuff all these pigs into a fucking warehouse and have them shit into a lake. Like, you see those, and you go, oh, yeah, there's something fucked up about that. But that's not the only way to do it.

• 2:07:15Speaker 01

  And, you know, I've had guys on my podcast from multiple different regenerative farms that have laid out how they do it. And you can source your food from places like that, if you can afford it. And it's better.

• 2:07:26Speaker 02

  But don't, don't you think that fundamental to that position is the idea that people want to ignore that human beings have to kill to eat?

• 2:07:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:07:35Speaker 02

  And we've always had to kill to eat. Always. We've always killed to eat.

• 2:07:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, life eats life, and that is the reality. And, um, there's also consciousness, apparently, in plants. Sorry.

• 2:07:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:07:48Speaker 01

  Sorry.

• 2:07:49Speaker 02

  What about my sentience, Joe?

• 2:07:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, I think plants communicate with each other in very profound ways. They exchange resources. Um, they communicate through mycelium, so that there's this underground network that they're using to communicate back and forth.

• 2:08:03Speaker 02

  And some of them eat meat.

• 2:08:04Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:08:04Speaker 02

  Some of these plants eat meat.

• 2:08:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, some of those weird little flytrap plants.

• 2:08:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:08:08Speaker 01

  Those are a little tricky.

• 2:08:09Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, and even the, you decomposing, you become the nutrients that they eat, right?

• 2:08:13Speaker 01

  You seen that one that, um, yeah, that's true too, right? That's, right? Yeah, when you decompose, you do get eaten up by the earth.

• 2:08:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, you get eaten up.

• 2:08:21Speaker 01

  Which is one of the weird things that we do. We're like, nah, I'm out of the game. We just stuff a body filled with formaldehyde and-

• 2:08:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:08:28Speaker 01

  Put it in a fucking genetically sealed box.

• 2:08:31Speaker 02

  It's true.

• 2:08:31Speaker 01

  Is really kinda creepy. But, uh, have you seen that one plant that eats rats?

• 2:08:36Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:08:37Speaker 01

  Oh, it's gross. It's, it's apparently got like this sicky, sickly, sweet smell to it. And these rats get around the lip, and then they fall into the bottom, and they can't get out. It's just like, yeah, it's like a, like a, like a vase. And, uh, they fall into this fucking thing, and the plant eats rats.

• 2:08:54Speaker 02

  How long does it take to eat them?

• 2:08:56Speaker 01

  Good question.

• 2:08:57Speaker 02

  Probably a long time.

• 2:08:58Speaker 01

  See if you can find that, Jamie. It's, uh, it's, it's, I mean, I wanna smell it. What does that thing smell like? Like, it apparently gives off like a sickly odor that attracts the rat. I think I'm remembering this correctly. But, uh, there's a, quite a few different plants that eat bugs.

• 2:09:15Speaker 03

  It's named after David Attenborough. I was wondering why it had this weird name.

• 2:09:18Speaker 01

  What's it named?

• 2:09:19Speaker 03

  Nep- Nep- Nephtenostattonburrowey.

• 2:09:24Speaker 01

  Attenborough pitcher plant, uh, Montane species of carnivorous pitcher plant of the genus Nepenthes. It's named after the celebrated broadcaster and naturalist for David Attenborough, who's a keen enthusiast of the genus. So that's what it looks like down there. Isn't that crazy?

• 2:09:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:09:41Speaker 01

  They fall in there and die and it eats them. Look at it. It's like a fucking catcher. For, look at it. It's a rat, a decomposed rat that they pulled out of there. How's it not, how could it not get out of there? I want to know.

• 2:09:55Speaker 02

  It probably, maybe the insides become very hard so they can't claw their way out.

• 2:09:58Speaker 01

  I guess, but it's fucking pretty extraordinary. How gross is that? That little fucker, he's got his head boked out.

• 2:10:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's so nasty.

• 2:10:04Speaker 01

  Like it's eaten alive. A little Photoshop for the... Little AI.

• 2:10:08Speaker 02

  But, you know, I don't know. Like if you watch animals consume other animals, it's never not nasty.

• 2:10:13Speaker 01

  Oh dude, it's rough.

• 2:10:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's rough. And they don't care. They'll just watch them scream. Like have you ever seen a coyote on a rabbit? Rabbits scream as loud as they don't care.

• 2:10:20Speaker 01

  Oh no, they don't care.

• 2:10:21Speaker 02

  Rip it to shreds, means nothing to them. But we're gonna worry about, worry about eating the farm-fresh pig.

• 2:10:28Speaker 04

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• 2:10:58Speaker 01

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• 2:12:26Speaker 01

  they will kill cubs and they'll eat them while they're alive. And this uh, this was actually a grizzly eating a black bear. And it was uh, eating it while it was alive. And it was like trying to move around, just tearing chunks of it off.

• 2:12:39Speaker 02

  Ugh, nasty.

• 2:12:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. That's what I say when people say, you know, they get upset at me that I hunt. I go, the way that elk is dying, when I shoot it with a bow and arrow, is infinitely better than the way it's gonna die when its teeth wear down to nothing and then it gets like emaciated where it can't escape. And then the coyotes get it, or a mountain lion gets it, or a bear gets it, or a wolf gets it. Like, an arrow through the pump station is the best way to go. It's 30 seconds, it's gone.

• 2:13:10Speaker 02

  Done?

• 2:13:11Speaker 01

  Done.

• 2:13:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:13:12Speaker 01

  And it's dead. And then, next thing you know, you're eating it. That's the, literally the best way. It's not gonna live forever and become an angel.

• 2:13:18Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:13:19Speaker 01

  It's not. They have like maybe 13 years on the mountains.

• 2:13:22Speaker 02

  But aren't these people a little bit disconnected from reality in any way?

• 2:13:24Speaker 01

  They are.

• 2:13:25Speaker 02

  Just totally disconnected from the natural order of things?

• 2:13:28Speaker 01

  What's weird is like, they don't seem to mind animal-on-animal violence, you know?

• 2:13:32Speaker 02

  Oh no, I've, I've debated, I've debated with vegans who have told me that their plan is to get rid of all of the predator animals. All of the predator animals. And my buddy of mine, he's a, he's a fellow debater, he calls it bear jail. He says, you're gonna say, he says, you're gonna put them in bear jail? If, is that, is that what you're gonna do? They're gonna go to bear jail? And some of these vegans will say, they'll say, look, there needs to be animal courts where, where they have attorneys who come in, hey, you killed the rabbit, you gotta, you know, you gotta be euthanized, this type of thing.

• 2:14:09Speaker 01

  Really?

• 2:14:10Speaker 02

  They want all the predators gone. All of them.

• 2:14:12Speaker 01

  Oh my god.

• 2:14:13Speaker 02

  I don't know what that would even look like to the ecosystem. That would be like a world ending.

• 2:14:18Speaker 01

  It would be amazing.

• 2:14:21Speaker 01

  I just want to see the infrastructure. Like how are you, how are you, like, do you know how many wolves there are? Do you know how many bears there are?

• 2:14:28Speaker 02

  Coyotes.

• 2:14:28Speaker 01

  Do you know how many mountain lions there are? Like you can't even keep a track of them.

• 2:14:31Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:14:32Speaker 01

  California had a different approach. In California, um, you know, they have like the Department of Fish and Game. California calls it Department of Fish and Wildlife. And they were kind of infiltrated by um, animal activists. And that's how they've sort of morphed their policies in California. And so that's why they have a mountain lion problem. They don't want to admit they have a mountain lion problem, but they have a mountain lion problem. And one of the problems is they don't control the population of the mountain lions. And their idea is they want the animals to control each other. So instead of encouraging hunting, ideally, they would like the mountain lions to get the deer down to a number where people can't hunt them ethically because their populations are in danger.

• 2:15:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, but you would have to have so many mountain lions to do it.

• 2:15:15Speaker 01

  And you do.

• 2:15:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, that you end up with this overwhelming opposite problem.

• 2:15:20Speaker 01

  So here's the problem. In the San Francisco, in the Bay Area, uh, 50% of the diet of these mountain lions is pets.

• 2:15:28Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 2:15:28Speaker 01

  50%.

• 2:15:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:15:29Speaker 01

  So when they keep catching these, they have these depredation tags. So if a, a cat pulls a dog out of a backyard, they find the cat, they'd euthanize it. When they open it up, they always have to check and see what they're eating. And 50% of them are eating pets.

• 2:15:48Speaker 02

  That's the, I think I told you when the DNR in Michigan, it's the same type of organization.

• 2:15:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:15:53Speaker 02

  The Department of Natural Resources. In order to control the deer population, their infinite wisdom, they started importing western coyotes, which was not a thing that you saw in the Midwest before like, uh, you know, 34...

• 2:16:07Speaker 01

  They imported them, really?

• 2:16:08Speaker 02

  Oh yeah, they imported them from out west hunts. And you know what they did? The native hunting there was never deer. It was always pheasant. Pheasant was what you went to the Midwest for. Pheasant hunting was the staple. Every farmer had a pheasant gun. And they would walk the railroad tracks with their kids. The pheasants would pop up, boom, done. Once they took the coyotes out there, guess what they didn't eat? They didn't eat the deer, they ate up all the pheasants.

• 2:16:33Speaker 01

  That's always how it goes.

• 2:16:34Speaker 02

  Then, it, it got even worse. They started, these, the population of coyotes just blew out of control. And they started, there's plenty of cotton tail for them to eat and there's plenty of rabbits for them to eat. Again, not doing a great job on controlling the deer population, these coyotes. They have an all-you-can-eat buffet with other things, including your cat. Including your cat, right? Including your, your smaller pets, just like the mountain lion issue. So these, uh, so what they finally did to try to get the deer population down was what everybody had suggested from the beginning, just issue more tags and make the out-of-state tags cheaper. And then people will come in, but you have all the animal rights going to come out, oh, you can't kill the deer. And the farmers are going nuts. They get nuisance tags. They'll be out there killing

• 2:17:17Speaker 02

  these deer all day, every day. Right from their tractor, because they have a nuisance tag. There's a deer, bam, done. Don't even think twice about it. Summer, winter, whenever. Just blast them because they have the permit to do it. They can't keep the population of these deer down, except now they have the additional population of all these coyotes.

• 2:17:38Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 2:17:38Speaker 02

  And so, how did the Michiganders deal with that? Well, they made a game of it. So what they do is they get grant, they hop in the truck with granddad, they have their dogs with GPS collars, and during the winter time, after they're done filling their deer tags, they hunt coyotes with their dogs all throughout the winter. They're just thinning them out.

• 2:17:57Speaker 01

  Well, at least they allow that. At least they allow that. Because California, one of the things they did where their bear population has exploded because they stopped bear hunting with dogs, which is the only way to get them. Either baiting or dogs.

• 2:18:09Speaker 02

  Cause don't you tree them?

• 2:18:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:18:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:18:11Speaker 01

  And the other way is baiting and they allowed, outlawed that as well. Yeah. Every time they bring in an animal to deal with another animal, they always fuck it up. Hawaii is one of the best ones.

• 2:18:21Speaker 02

  Remember, well, didn't they import all those cats to get the, the rats in New York? And cats don't hunt rats. They only hunt mice. So they ended up having this huge explosion of cats all over New York City.

• 2:18:32Speaker 01

  Cats are too big. I mean, rats rather.

• 2:18:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're way too, they're the size of the cats.

• 2:18:35Speaker 01

  They're dangerous too. They'll fuck that cat up. Um, Hawaii had a problem with rats. I guess probably from ships, I don't know. But they were eating the sugarcane, so they brought in mongoose. The problem is mongoose are diurnal and the rats are nocturnal. So the mongoose never saw the rats and the rats never saw the mongoose. So the mongoose started eating up all the ground nesting birds. And so the, the state bird of Hawaii got fucking decimated. Cause it's a ground nesting bird. And so these fucking mongoose who are like bad motherfuckers, man, they kill cobras. You know, they're just killing these birds.

• 2:19:17Speaker 02

  It's like an office lady. Just like an office lady, go, I have this idea, guys. We gotta bring in the cats, cause then that'll get the rats. And someone else says, eh, that's great. And they just never consult anybody who knows anything about these animals at all.

• 2:19:30Speaker 01

  Well, I think everything was done in decades past where people were a lot more ignorant about the, the effect. And, you know, Australia is a good example of that. Australia, they brought in cats. I forget what they were dealing with, but it didn't work. They didn't kill whatever they want. Now they have a, a giant feral cat problem in Australia to the point where bow hunting magazines in Australia, they have fucking cats in them. Like a guy holding a house cat up that he shot with a bow and arrow. Like it's a trophy. Like my friend Adam, he lives in Australia and uh, I uh, was over there visiting him and he gave me some bow hunting magazines. I'm like, oh, I'll read these on the way home. So I'm on the plane on the way home, not even thinking, and I'm opening up this magazine. There's a fucking guy holding a cat and I like close it shut real quick. I'm like...

• 2:20:16Speaker 02

  Is this allowed?

• 2:20:17Speaker 01

  What the fuck?

• 2:20:19Speaker 02

  They're mounting kitty cats on the wall?

• 2:20:21Speaker 01

  Like if you saw a puppy with a fucking arrow through its chest, you'd be like, what?

• 2:20:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, you'd freak out.

• 2:20:25Speaker 01

  But that's how it is, like over there. They have so many feral cats that there's like a bounty on cats. Like people make like fur coats out of cats. It's fucking disgusting.

• 2:20:35Speaker 02

  Who would expect that the country who lost a war to the emus?

• 2:20:41Speaker 02

  They lost a war against their own emu population.

• 2:20:44Speaker 01

  They have a giant problem with invasive species over there. There's so many of them. There's the, the water buffalo, the Asiatic water buffalo, the northern territories. They have these enormous fucking buffalos that are up there and no natural predators. And they, guys just go up there to hunt them. And they're

• 2:21:02Speaker 02

  That's the only way to thin them out.

• 2:21:03Speaker 01

  So, and you're still, you're not gonna, you're not gonna put a dent in them. There's not enough guys. It's too far.

• 2:21:09Speaker 02

  My Australian buddy Jake, he has the drop bear joke. Have you heard the drop bear joke?

• 2:21:13Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:21:13Speaker 02

  Oh, it's the funny, if, if you get an Australian in a bar, right, somebody always brings this up. And I'm like, man, there's a lot of dangerous critters over there, every time. And he'll be like, oh yeah, especially the, the drop bears, you know? What's a drop? Oh yeah. And he'll go into the whole story of the drop bear. And what the drop bear is, is it's a bear that'll drop out of the tree on you, and then it sexually assaults you. It's a real thing, right? And every time someone will be like, really? And you see him cackling, right? He's just, like, it's how, it's how Australians mess with the Yanks, basically. The drop bears.

• 2:21:47Speaker 01

  They're hardy people. They're used to crocodiles and fucking poisonous spiders and poisonous snakes and especially those dudes that live out in the, you know, in the bush, as they say.

• 2:21:57Speaker 02

  Well, he says that the Aboriginals, he, he tells me all the stories of the Aboriginals, when they like have their coming of age, they'll just buy warm beer. And then they go out to the middle of the desert with warm beer and they'll just drink for weeks, months, warm beer. That's what they spend their government checks on, cause a lot of that stuff is uh, considered occupied land, right? The Australian government make deals with the Aboriginals to have a lot of that land, so they give them a percentage, right? They give, they give them like monthly payments, kinda like what we do with the Native Americans here. And he's like, and what they do is they'll take their whole government cheese check, fill an entire car with warm beer for their coming of age, go out to the middle of the desert and just drink for months. I'm like, man, that's rough.

• 2:22:43Speaker 01

  Do they have a sa- a similar situation where like, uh, Native Americans don't have genetically a history of alcohol use? And so alcohol impacted them different than it did the Europeans? Like, they just, they didn't have the enzymes?

• 2:22:57Speaker 02

  Not just that, they have another problem. Have you ever seen the petrol song?

• 2:23:01Speaker 01

  The petrol song?

• 2:23:02Speaker 02

  Oh man. What I'm about to show you is going to make you laugh to death. There's a song which was made by the Australian government for the Aboriginals about how you shouldn't drink or sniff petrol, gasoline, from a can. I'm not kidding, you can pull it up right now. It's the gasoline song, right? It is the, you're, you, just be prepared, you're gonna laugh yourself to death.

• 2:23:28Speaker 01

  Oh my god, here we go.

• 2:23:34Speaker 01

  Uh, "Don't Be Rama Rama" by Warburton. Is this it? Put the headphones on.

• 2:23:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:23:47Speaker 01

  No sniff, don't sniff.

• 2:23:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, step on the bottle.

• 2:24:21Speaker 01

  You don't sniff petrol from a can. You put your petrol in the car, it stays. It's messing with your brains.

• 2:24:36Speaker 01

  Holy shit.

• 2:24:43Speaker 02

  Wow. Smell pretty good though, to be honest.

• 2:24:47Speaker 01

  Catchy song.

• 2:24:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, catchy song.

• 2:24:49Speaker 01

  Very catchy. Jesus Christ. Imagine, you have that, and you think you're gonna fix that problem with a catchy song?

• 2:24:56Speaker 02

  No. No, and they, they have huge problems. He tells me stories about it all the time. He sent that over. He said, this song exists. No, it doesn't, no way. Sends it over, and I'm, oh my god. It does exist, it's a real thing. It's such a problem for them.

• 2:25:12Speaker 01

  God, that's dark.

• 2:25:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's brutal. And that's the sort of addiction problems that are going on there. Uh, it's not ju- like, people forget, it's not just the alcohol introduction. It's the introduction of all things which are addicting that begin, if your culture has no defense against it, just sweeps right through.

• 2:25:31Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:25:32Speaker 02

  Very similar to the crack epidemic, right? What was the defense?

• 2:25:36Speaker 01

  Well, it's also the accessibility, right? Crack was cheaper.

• 2:25:41Speaker 02

  Just like petrol.

• 2:25:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:25:44Speaker 01

  Oh, it's, that, that whole thing of giving them their land and then giving them money, boy, that always turns out horrible.

• 2:25:50Speaker 02

  It's turned out horrible for us here. It's turned out bad for the native populations.

• 2:25:55Speaker 01

  Except the ones that own casinos. Ballin'.

• 2:25:57Speaker 02

  You know, it's funny, you, you look into that though, and you find out, guess what?

• 2:26:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:26:02Speaker 02

  They don't really get that much in the way of proceeds from those casinos.

• 2:26:05Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 2:26:06Speaker 02

  Turns out that, uh, White Eye comes in and still gets most of the proceeds

• 2:26:09Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 2:26:10Speaker 02

  from those casinos.

• 2:26:11Speaker 01

  Yep, somebody comes in, bankrolls it, and sets it up, and they get a, a nice check, and they don't have to work again, but that guy gets fucking stinking rich. And then also you've created a gambling problem. Which I am of the belief that you have to have personal accountability. Like, I don't mind Las Vegas. I don't mind it. I think if you wanna go into the casino, and like, my friend Dana White is a fucking degenerate gambler. Like, he plays blackjack for like a hundred thousand dollars a hand, it's, it's nuts. I don't like it, I don't do it. I don't get it. But I feel like you should be able to do it, if that's what you wanna do.

• 2:26:46Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 2:26:46Speaker 01

  And then the argument is, like, people lose everything, and like, true. Also, people lose everything drinking. I don't know what you wanna do about that, but I think you should have personal accountability, and you should, if you're an alcoholic, definitely not drink. Uh, I don't know, like, at what point in time do we s- say you can't, cause some people enjoy playing craps. They go to, they look forward to going to Vegas and they wanna play craps, like, what do we?

• 2:27:10Speaker 02

  Well, and overwhelmingly now, people go, okay, I'm gonna go to Vegas, or I'm gonna go to Laughlin, or I'm gonna go to a place like this. Um, I'm bringing the exact amount of money that I can lose.

• 2:27:19Speaker 01

  That's if they're rational.

• 2:27:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, just expect to lose. There are degenerate gamblers, there's no doubt.

• 2:27:24Speaker 01

  Oh, I could introduce you to a gang of them.

• 2:27:26Speaker 02

  There's, yeah, there's tons of degenerate gamblers, that's true.

• 2:27:29Speaker 01

  My friend Dana's a weird one, cause he's a degenerate gambler that's insanely wealthy. Like, he's, he's worth fucking shit piles of money, and he, he's still gambling all the time, like, uh, uh, but

• 2:27:40Speaker 02

  Like, there's a thrill for it, maybe?

• 2:27:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, so, but when you set up one of those casinos in a place that's never had a casino, at least Vegas is like established, right? But if you just like set up some new casino in a, a very poor area.

• 2:27:53Speaker 02

  Check out that stat.

• 2:27:54Speaker 01

  Oklahoma rose to 3.23 billion, oh, native gaming revenues in Oklahoma rose to 3.23 billion in 2010, representing 44% of all US casinos. Whoa. Oklahoma surpassed Connecticut as second in the United States for gaming revenue, according to Alan Meister, an economist with, uh, Nathan Associates, Inc. Oklahoma has 113 tribal casinos. Whoa, more than any other state in the US. 2015 report on US gaming says Oklahoma has the most gaming machines. Those machines, bro. Those, that's the saddest thing, when you go to Vegas, see someone just sitting there.

• 2:28:32Speaker 02

  Like a drone?

• 2:28:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, just pressing buttons.

• 2:28:34Speaker 02

  The old ladies with their, have you ever seen the screen rubbers? They're, they're hilarious. They'll rub the screen for luck.

• 2:28:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:28:41Speaker 02

  That's just wild, and they play the penny slots. Penny slots, 100 lines at a time, so it's a buck a hand, but it's a penny slot. It's a penny slot. The, um, yeah, they're, they're making out like bandages, but it's usually not actually the native tribes that are making out at all.

• 2:28:56Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 2:28:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, they get just enough to shut up. There you go, now shut up.

• 2:29:00Speaker 01

  But it's just sad when you find out how much alcoholism and drug abuse exists on those, in those places, just, and you think, like, if you look at it from a genetic perspective, like, firewater, that was always the thing. It was always the joke from the western movies. That the natives couldn't hand their, handle their firewater. It's just, they didn't have a history of alcohol use. And all of a sudden, you've introduced something that allows them to just get pissed drunk and fall asleep, and they don't have cultural traditions on how to manage it correctly, and

• 2:29:30Speaker 02

  For addiction at all.

• 2:29:31Speaker 01

  Or, and there's also the genetics, like, some people have a genetic propensity for alcoholism. And, uh, also, some people are better at processing alcohol. They have a genetic propensity for prop- It's like, the whole thing is, it's dark.

• 2:29:46Speaker 02

  You were telling me, um, just before we came in here, that you had seen, uh, Rachel debate that guy.

• 2:29:52Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 2:29:54Speaker 02

  And you, you had watched the, the thrashing, um, which I was telling you, he was in the front row when that happened.

• 2:30:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:30:01Speaker 02

  And he was, that guy was just beyond upset, you know, everybody was, every, everybody was thrashing him. And I was, I was gonna, I was gonna get your take on that, like, what did you think after you had watched that? Did you feel bad for that guy?

• 2:30:15Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:30:16Speaker 02

  No?

• 2:30:16Speaker 01

  No, I never feel bad for someone that is, in, if that's what, like, I don't feel bad for guys when they fight and they get kicked in the head, you know?

• 2:30:24Speaker 02

  You signed up for it.

• 2:30:25Speaker 01

  I don't like that people get injured in a fight, but you were trying to do that, he did it to you, that's what it is. It is what it is, you know? And it's just, the weirdness is like

• 2:30:37Speaker 01

  Like telling her to make him a sandwich?

• 2:30:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:30:39Speaker 01

  Like that, like, what are we doing here?

• 2:30:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:30:41Speaker 01

  Like, are you, you a misogynist now? Like, you think a woman's, what are you saying? Like, they don't think at all about, it's like the checkers thing. Like, we're talking about like the ID for the grocery store.

• 2:30:53Speaker 02

  Just like terrible optics.

• 2:30:55Speaker 01

  What are you doing? It's also wanting to be right and to win versus like having a really well thought out perspective that you want to argue, you know, like, or debate, or, or just communicate. It's always this ego thing where people are trying to win. And in doing so, they, they fall into these like really obvious traps.

• 2:31:16Speaker 02

  Easy ones, too.

• 2:31:17Speaker 01

  That's one of the things that when we first talked about doing another podcast is I want to talk to you about, because, you know, you're very logical in your approach to these things. And so many people are so bad at being logical.

• 2:31:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, you know, Dave, I did a debate, pretty famous debate with Dave Smith, and I know you know Dave. And Dave's a friend of mine. And we became friends.

• 2:31:40Speaker 01

  I love Dave.

• 2:31:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, we became.

• 2:31:42Speaker 01

  He's a very good friend of mine.

• 2:31:43Speaker 02

  He's a.

• 2:31:43Speaker 01

  What happened in the debate?

• 2:31:44Speaker 02

  Well, he got crushed badly.

• 2:31:46Speaker 01

  What was the debate over?

• 2:31:47Speaker 02

  The debate was, well, it veered into his libertarian philosophy.

• 2:31:51Speaker 01

  I can hear him right now going, fuck it, I did not fucking get crushed.

• 2:31:54Speaker 02

  He won't, he won't actually on this one.

• 2:31:56Speaker 01

  On this one, he agrees?

• 2:31:57Speaker 02

  He's very publicly acknowledged that this happened to him. But it was good.

• 2:32:01Speaker 01

  So it was about libertarianism?

• 2:32:02Speaker 02

  It was libertarians versus Christian ethics and how the intersection actually happens with authority. And he ended up having to agree with most of my positions. I'm a little bit more of a statist than he is. He's a libertarian. And so we had this, and it was a good back and forth. It was a brutal debate, but it was a good back and forth. But when it was done, I think what he expected was that I was going to do the, the dunk on Dave tour. I was going to go around, ha, ha.

• 2:32:27Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 2:32:29Speaker 02

  But the opposite, in fact, I DM'd him and said, look, I think that I can help shore your worldview up. So you're libertarian, and here's some points that you missed, and I think I can help shore those up. And he said, really? So I walked him through a bunch of those points, and he still uses them to this day.

• 2:32:44Speaker 01

  That's cool.

• 2:32:45Speaker 02

  But the whole idea there is like, I, I do want my worldview to win, ultimately, that's true. And one of the reasons I do so many debates is because I do think that I'm speaking to the audience from my worldview, why I think it's perhaps superior to this guy's or the things I'm advocating for, better or worse. Uh, with Dave, he's doing the same thing. He's advocating his worldview. I think the difference there, the distinction, was that he was surprised and he, he kind of asked me about it. And I said, look, the reason is, is because you're a good debater, and you've gotten better as time has gone on. And if you're going to represent your view, I want you to be the best at representing that view, because that's how you determine which worldview people end up going with.

• 2:33:27Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:33:28Speaker 02

  This is why so many people have moved towards Christianity and Christian ethics, seeing the religious debates, has a lot to do with that, with the various ideas in worldview, uh, being expanded, and then the kind of the graciousness even after the debate of trying to help the other person with their view.

• 2:33:46Speaker 01

  That's very cool, and that would be nice if most people used that framework to have discussions.

• 2:33:53Speaker 02

  They don't.

• 2:33:54Speaker 01

  They don't. No, they don't. It's just, and again, it's like, it's a part of what we're talking about, that there's this whole commodity of attention. And there's a lot of attention on dunking on people and shitting on people and being mean. And, uh, people love that stuff, for whatever reason.

• 2:34:09Speaker 02

  That's true. Now, I'm not always that charitable when it comes to progressives or leftists, the people who I consider responsible for many of the most horrific things in, in society socially that we deal with. I'm not nearly as charitable to them. But this is because, in, in, uh, my humble experience, they have not been very charitable to anybody.

• 2:34:34Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:34:34Speaker 02

  Anybody's views.

• 2:34:35Speaker 01

  It's a very hyper aggressive position and, um, very prone to insults and that it's, it's normalized, like attacking people's normalized. The celebration of Charlie Kirk is a great example of like the cruelty that's normalized, right?

• 2:34:53Speaker 02

  And when you get down to the core pillar of their ideology, a lot of them think, not only is this justified, I'll give you an example, there's a guy who was inside the Twitch sphere who says, well, wouldn't you kill Hitler if you could before he became Hitler? That's his justification.

• 2:35:10Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:35:11Speaker 02

  And so you see many progressives who have this kind of justification, and that leads to a huge amount of political violence, which becomes normalized because they justify it through the lens of, I'm stopping a monster.

• 2:35:26Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:35:26Speaker 02

  I've never thought these people see me as a human being. I don't think that they do. I think that they see me, most of them, at least the ones I debate with, as an actual monster.

• 2:35:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:35:36Speaker 02

  Who's trying to take from, or destroy them, or hurt them in some way. And so, from, from my view, that's, that's what it always seems like coming this direction, is that there's, they, they don't even see me as a person. They see me as, um, like an idea or an ideology which is there to hurt them.

• 2:35:59Speaker 01

  Right, that they have to attack and, and beat and win.

• 2:36:02Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:36:02Speaker 01

  And then, of course, they're in the echo chamber of the people that also support that ideology, and they're all like agreeing that this is okay, and that this is acceptable, and this violence is acceptable, and all these different things. Yeah. Um, it's really, it's, it's kind of daunting because you're just like, when does this dust settle? When, when do people just like relax and start having actual conversations on both sides? Like, when, when do people just do what you and Dave did? And just find out why a person thinks what they think, and what, what the actual facts of what they're saying are, and whether or not your worldview is distorted.

• 2:36:44Speaker 02

  Or compatible.

• 2:36:45Speaker 01

  Or compatible, yeah.

• 2:36:46Speaker 02

  Like, Christian ethics, living inside of libertarianism, from my view, is way better than trying to make Christian ethics compatible with progressive ideology.

• 2:36:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:36:55Speaker 02

  And so if I have to pick between a guy governing like Mum Donnie, or a guy who holds the ideology like Dave Smith, I'm picking Dave Smith's ideology. And that, those are the choices, that's how I view it. I view it as choices between ideologies. Somebody's going to be in charge, somebody's going to be in charge of the state, no matter what.

• 2:37:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:37:14Speaker 02

  I'm going to try to pick the ideology that's closest to my own. If you're going to be in charge of the state, I definitely want you to at least be representing the values that I have while you're in charge of it.

• 2:37:27Speaker 01

  And the values of being legitimately charitable and a pathway to redemption, which doesn't exist with progressives, which is really a problem, because they keep pushing the goalposts and eating their own. They keep going further and further left and attacking people for not being left enough. And like, you get cast out of the community, you get excommunicated for, my, I mean, how many people were excommunicated during COVID for just not going along with the government's narrative on pharmaceutical drugs?

• 2:37:54Speaker 02

  Being injected in your body, absent your consent.

• 2:37:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:37:57Speaker 02

  Many of them wanted COVID passports, remember that?

• 2:38:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:38:00Speaker 02

  They wanted to inject the jabby stabby into you. YouTube even censored opposition to it for a long time.

• 2:38:07Speaker 01

  I think there's a real problem with people that don't have an ethical framework or a moral framework that's just arbitrary, and they don't have a religious background.

• 2:38:16Speaker 02

  Foundation.

• 2:38:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, that's where I always describe it as like, whether you believe in Christ or not, it's an awesome framework, like a scaffolding for being a good person. You could follow that guy's teachings, like, there's no flaws in it, like, especially Jesus. Like, it's not one thing that you point to, like, you know, there's a few guys in, in religion that you could point to and go, yeah, well, he married a nine-year-old. Like, hey, that seems a little fucked. Hey, he, he said he could kill the infidels, that seems a little fucked. With Jesus, there's none of that.

• 2:38:44Speaker 02

  None of that.

• 2:38:45Speaker 01

  None of that.

• 2:38:46Speaker 02

  Not only that, it's interesting that you bring that up, the, the kind of foundational principles. For Christians, the emulation of Christ, we accept that we're flawed, we accept that we sin, and we accept that the only pathway for us through redemption is to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ through Christian ethics, right? That's what, that's how we perceive things. So baked into that is not only redemption, it's not only the idea of salvation, but it's an, it gives you a value to move towards.

• 2:39:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:39:18Speaker 02

  And what's missing often from the progressive ideology, from the secular ideology or the atheist ideology, how do you give a person a moral ought? If you are the ultimate arbiter of all that is moral, because it just comes to your, down to your preference.

• 2:39:33Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:39:34Speaker 02

  How do we determine who the ultimate arbiter now is?

• 2:39:38Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:39:38Speaker 02

  Well, it usually just comes down to you and whatever your preferences are. And so what are we moving towards exactly? How do we make it a determination that you're in error? You're not moving towards this greater value?

• 2:39:48Speaker 01

  What you do is you're establishing a new, non-defined religion that could be moved and changed based on.

• 2:39:54Speaker 02

  The whims.

• 2:39:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. At, at any given time. And depending on who's the most radical and the most charismatic that's in charge of whatever that movement is at the time, eat the rich, whatever it is, whatever, whatever crazy thing.

• 2:40:06Speaker 02

  They turn into little micro cults.

• 2:40:07Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:40:07Speaker 02

  Right? Like the sec, have you seen the secular humanist micro cult? Same thing there.

• 2:40:11Speaker 01

  Remember Atheism Plus?

• 2:40:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, right. Yeah, Atheism Plus. Secular humanism is really interesting because, and I've debated the most prominent secular humanists in the world.

• 2:40:20Speaker 01

  Who's that?

• 2:40:21Speaker 02

  Um, well, I did Matt Dillahunty, I've done several, uh, secular humanist debates. Matt Dillahunty was the funniest thing in the world. He rage quit in the first few minutes of the debate, in my opening statement, because I brought up this glaring contradiction in his worldview. I said, why, why should, so he was dating a tran, he's dating a trans person, he says he's not gay. Right, so I'm not gay, but I'm dating a trans person. So I brought this up and I said, "The way that we can assess truth claims, I could just point an easy one out of how we can assess that maybe this isn't a good way to evaluate truth claims."

• 2:40:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:40:56Speaker 02

  Because he says he's in a non-homosexual relationship with a trans woman? And reconciles that by saying, "No, that's a real woman." And I'm like, "If we can't even distinguish what's real and what's true, how could he even..."

• 2:41:09Speaker 01

  He rage quit off that?

• 2:41:10Speaker 02

  Oh, he was so angry. He called me a bunch of names, got up and rage quit for me pointing out this glaring contradiction in his ideology.

• 2:41:18Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 2:41:18Speaker 02

  And it basically ruined his career, but he did it to himself because he should've just stayed and done the debate, and here's why I think this. But instead, he just lost it. He lost it, got up, undignified, threw the mic, called me a bunch of names, walked out, and anyway, I said, "You and your husband have a wonderful evening." And he just, that was it for him on his way out. But the problem with this ideology is it's changed. So he was reading from the Secular Human Manifesto III. So it's already had, you know, it's on its third revision now, and it started initially as kind of more religious dogma, and then it took on a non-religious dogma. They called it secular humanism.

• 2:42:01Speaker 01

  Who's creating the canon?

• 2:42:03Speaker 02

  Uh, well, there was a big meeting in Amsterdam, not kidding.

• 2:42:07Speaker 01

  (laughing)

• 2:42:08Speaker 02

  I'm not kidding. It's the Amsterdam Secular Humanist Manifesto. And essentially, it just comes down to these arbitrary preferences around, "We're just kind of for things that make you feel good and kind of against things that make us not feel so good." Now, that's the biggest oversimplification in the world, but it really does just kind of reduce to that. And so, one of the ways that you can always kind of endlessly beat these guys about the head and the shoulders with their own ideologies is just point this out, "Who's in charge of this anyway?" Like, which one of you gets to make this determination? That this is the ought that I should follow, based on anything other than your preferences? And the idea always is, "Well, it wouldn't just be my preference, it'd be the preference

• 2:42:53Speaker 02

  of many people." But don't those change? Well, yeah. Well, then what you're saying is that what you consider moral today, you're not going to consider moral tomorrow. That tells me that you're saying to me, you don't know what is moral and what is not. The Christian has the opposite approach. They're saying, "What was moral yesterday is still moral today, and what's still moral today is still what's going to be moral a thousand years from now, 2,000 years from now."

• 2:43:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:43:21Speaker 02

  Because that's the teaching they're basing it on.

• 2:43:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's really odd if anybody, it's like Wikipedia, like anybody can contribute?

• 2:43:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, or edit. You can just edit it whenever you want to. Thing feel bad, edit.

• 2:43:35Speaker 01

  It's way worse than Wikipedia, because it's not even edit. Like, you could actually add to the canon. You could, you know...

• 2:43:41Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Right?

• 2:43:42Speaker 01

  True, yeah. You could write your own, you know, the Book of Eugene.

• 2:43:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Book of Eugene, and this is Eugene's new prophetic way forward.

• 2:43:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:43:51Speaker 02

  That is 100% true. And there are actual fail safes in the Bible that prevent people from writing new Bibles, right? The entirety of the message of Christ in and of itself. This is what Christian ethics is based on, the teachings of Jesus Christ, the teachings of the Scriptures. But it always gives us a thing to move towards, and that is why it creates, I think, better societies in general, better societies overall, because people always go, "Wait a second, I'm supposed to be moving towards this idea."

• 2:44:23Speaker 01

  If you really do follow it, it makes nice people. Like, the people that I know that are like genuine, real Christians are some of the nicest people I know.

• 2:44:30Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 2:44:31Speaker 01

  They're so kind, almost as nice as the Mormons.

• 2:44:33Speaker 02

  Right. Right.

• 2:44:36Speaker 01

  They're the nicest.

• 2:44:36Speaker 02

  The Mormon, well, the Mormon thing is funny.

• 2:44:38Speaker 01

  They're the nicest.

• 2:44:39Speaker 02

  Because there's like, if you have to be in a cult, like you said, boy, that's gotta be the one.

• 2:44:43Speaker 01

  It's the great one. You get a bunch of wives, everyone's cool.

• 2:44:46Speaker 02

  And do you know that they're the richest? They're richer than the Catholic Church?

• 2:44:49Speaker 01

  Are they really?

• 2:44:50Speaker 02

  Much richer.

• 2:44:52Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 2:44:52Speaker 02

  Much richer.

• 2:44:53Speaker 01

  I would've never guessed that.

• 2:44:54Speaker 02

  I didn't either until I, somebody told me that. I said, "There's no way." Yes, there is.

• 2:44:59Speaker 01

  But there's so many Catholics. Aren't there way more Catholics?

• 2:45:01Speaker 02

  Way more. But it's the tithing. So Mormons, Mormons are really, they practice nepotism like no other. I mean, and, I mean, they just overwhelmingly practice this in their communities. And so, with the tithing, business tithing, some of these businesses will tithe the Mormon Church 60, 70%, and then they get awarded various contracts from their friends and things like this.

• 2:45:24Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 2:45:25Speaker 02

  And the church has buku dollars.

• 2:45:27Speaker 01

  Damn, what a nice, nice setup.

• 2:45:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a nice, it's a pretty nice setup for them. And then they run their own politicians inside their own states.

• 2:45:35Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 2:45:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, which then enforces their laws, like, they kind of figured a lot of this out.

• 2:45:41Speaker 01

  As long as they're nice. Whatever, if they could push that niceness out to everybody else, like, you know, what, why, what do you got here, Jamie?

• 2:45:50Speaker 03

  It does.

• 2:45:51Speaker 01

  Official Mormonism is the richest religion in the world.

• 2:45:54Speaker 03

  But Cath, I just, I mean, Catholicism as a whole, uh, somewhere in the 2.3 trillion dollar.

• 2:46:02Speaker 01

  Oh, because there's a bunch of different Catholic churches? Is that what it is? Oh, I see.

• 2:46:05Speaker 02

  But the church, but the single richest church is, yeah, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, so Mormons.

• 2:46:11Speaker 01

  Wow, they have $100 billion.

• 2:46:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:46:15Speaker 01

  They're way above everybody else.

• 2:46:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:46:18Speaker 01

  Like, the Vatican is only 30 billion. I would've never guessed they were that much richer than the Vatican.

• 2:46:24Speaker 03

  That is not, that's not correct.

• 2:46:26Speaker 01

  It's not fair?

• 2:46:26Speaker 03

  That is not correct.

• 2:46:27Speaker 01

  What do you mean?

• 2:46:28Speaker 03

  I'm just saying it's not correct.

• 2:46:30Speaker 01

  How so?

• 2:46:31Speaker 03

  I mean, well, also, it's a Wikipedia post on Reddit, that's not the best source of information.

• 2:46:37Speaker 01

  Oh, you just think this is just not accurate in general?

• 2:46:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, whatever holy C is, is not.

• 2:46:40Speaker 01

  That's the Vatican.

• 2:46:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, that'll be the...

• 2:46:42Speaker 03

  I know, but I mean, they got way more than 30 billion dollars, and just...

• 2:46:44Speaker 01

  That's a lot of money, dude.

• 2:46:46Speaker 03

  And it's just art.

• 2:46:48Speaker 01

  I wonder, right? That's a good point.

• 2:46:49Speaker 03

  That's what I said, I just looked it up. It's worth 3 trillion dollars, it says on this other post.

• 2:46:55Speaker 01

  Oh, interesting. So, just the art?

• 2:46:57Speaker 03

  I'm just...

• 2:46:58Speaker 01

  Or the buildings and the Vatican itself?

• 2:47:01Speaker 03

  With, getting into the weeds of it, yeah, as one whole church in Utah, yes, comparatively to the one church in Texas, it's got a whole lot more.

• 2:47:09Speaker 01

  So are they just basing it on their assets? Is that what it is?

• 2:47:11Speaker 03

  Also, it's, it was comparing it to like, per person, like, per, uh... Look, one, uh, average Catholic is worth $67,000 versus 1.7 million.

• 2:47:24Speaker 01

  Damn, the average Mormon is worth 1.7 million?

• 2:47:27Speaker 02

  Nepotism, baby.

• 2:47:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, and also, there's a bunch of Catholic, there's way more Catholics like in Africa that, you know, aren't worth anything.

• 2:47:33Speaker 02

  Right, and South America especially.

• 2:47:34Speaker 01

  Right, but that is crazy. The average Mormon's worth 1.7 million?

• 2:47:39Speaker 03

  That's also, they're, probably their stat.

• 2:47:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:47:42Speaker 01

  Right, they're trying to rope you in.

• 2:47:43Speaker 03

  Probably like, yo.

• 2:47:44Speaker 01

  Bro, join us.

• 2:47:45Speaker 03

  That's what Scientology does, right?

• 2:47:46Speaker 01

  Oh, that was a big thing with Scientology in Hollywood. In Hollywood, when I first moved there in 1994, there was a bunch of people that were doing really well, who were Scientologists, and there was this, this sort of push that if you join Scientology, they take care of you, and you get hooked up.

• 2:48:03Speaker 02

  That is really a wide berth. It's between 300 billion and 2.5 trillion.

• 2:48:08Speaker 01

  That's like, that's a really wide... That's almost like Ilhan Omar's accountant.

• 2:48:13Speaker 02

  100%.

• 2:48:14Speaker 01

  The Vatican is hiding something here.

• 2:48:15Speaker 03

  I heard the other day that someone just said, like, Rome didn't go away, it just became the Catholic Church, and that's why, you know.

• 2:48:20Speaker 01

  Right, right, right. Have you been to the Vatican?

• 2:48:22Speaker 03

  Mm-mm.

• 2:48:23Speaker 01

  Oh my God, the art is insane. It's insane. I went on a tour with this guy who was a professor from France. It was really cool. He was really smart. It was a very interesting tour. You could hire a guy, and this guy was a professor, and in the summer, he would, you know, give these tours. And if you were enthusiastic about it, he was awesome. And I was like, really, really into it. So I was asking him all these questions, and he kept explaining in depth to me, and like, you just never run out of art.

• 2:48:52Speaker 02

  Just endless?

• 2:48:53Speaker 01

  You're looking at so much shit, like, this is crazy. You keep going into new rooms and new fucking, new auditoriums, and then you're in, like, St. Peter's Basilica, just that alone, you're like, "What? What? This is crazy."

• 2:49:09Speaker 02

  And it's all worth a fortune.

• 2:49:10Speaker 01

  It's so big and so majestic that if you didn't believe in God and you went there, you'd be like, "Okay."

• 2:49:15Speaker 02

  Maybe.

• 2:49:16Speaker 01

  They might know something. Like, how the fuck did you do this? Like, it's so majestic that it almost changes your perception of what's possible.

• 2:49:23Speaker 02

  You think they got the chronovisor in there?

• 2:49:25Speaker 01

  The what?

• 2:49:25Speaker 02

  The chronovisor, the Vatican chronovisor?

• 2:49:27Speaker 01

  What is that?

• 2:49:28Speaker 02

  That's supposedly, this is conspiracy stuff, right? Getting into the conspiracy stuff. Supposedly, the Vatican is sitting on something called the chronovisor, which tells them the future. And it was invented, I don't know how many hundreds of years ago, but you put on the chronovisor, and it shows you the future. Yes.

• 2:49:47Speaker 01

  No. Yes. Oh my God. Where is the arrow is pointing to like...

• 2:49:54Speaker 03

  It'll be like Jesus or something, I think.

• 2:49:56Speaker 01

  I don't understand.

• 2:49:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, and so, yeah, they went back.

• 2:49:58Speaker 01

  So you put on the hat?

• 2:49:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, you put it, you put it on, and it'll show you, it can show you different spots in time or something like this, called the chronovisor.

• 2:50:06Speaker 01

  Whoa. Well, you know, I've, I'm really interested in the Ark of the Covenant that's supposedly in Ethiopia. You know, have you ever heard Graham Hancock talk about that?

• 2:50:15Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:50:16Speaker 01

  It's really interesting. So, the Ethiopian Bible has a lot of, like, the Book of Enoch in it, and it's a really old version.

• 2:50:28Speaker 02

  They don't consider it Deuterocanon. They consider it canon. Yeah, so the Ethiopian Church is not actually, I don't believe it's actually in communion with the Orthodox Church anymore.

• 2:50:42Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:50:42Speaker 02

  It's on its own, along with a couple others, but they do have more books in their Bible than the Orthodox Church does in the Catholic Church.

• 2:50:50Speaker 01

  Right. And supposedly, they're guarding the Ark of the Covenant, and these people that are assigned to be a guardian of this thing, they can only do it for a couple of years, and they develop cataracts. And he spoke to these people.

• 2:51:06Speaker 02

  From the blinding light?

• 2:51:07Speaker 01

  From whatever the fuck it is, like whatever it is, it might be radiation, I mean, who knows what it is. But apparently, the lore is that it's this one particular church, this very old church in Ethiopia, and there is an area where they are guarding the Ark of the Covenant. And they have, and the people that are supposed to be in the room with it, they all can only do it for a couple of years, and then they get horribly sick.

• 2:51:30Speaker 02

  And then they have to switch them out.

• 2:51:32Speaker 01

  And they get cataracts, like this documented cataracts from all these guys who go to, I mean, maybe it's the placebo effect, they think they're gonna, I don't know, but I highly doubt it. It sounds more likely you've got some sort of a crazy artifact that might be ancient technology.

• 2:51:48Speaker 02

  We have the same thing in Israel, over Jesus's tomb.

• 2:51:51Speaker 03

  Supposedly.

• 2:51:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, the chronovisor.

• 2:51:54Speaker 03

  I was just reading the article, this is, like, it says it's a purported photo of Jesus.

• 2:51:57Speaker 01

  Oh, it's crystal clear, that's clearer than, uh, whatever his name is, Tyler Robinson.

• 2:52:02Speaker 02

  Right, right, that's in 4K.

• 2:52:04Speaker 03

  This guy swears that he had the ability to go witness these events, he witnessed like tons of stuff, and then when he died, it says that the Pope hid it, so nobody could ever.

• 2:52:13Speaker 02

  Nobody could ever use it again.

• 2:52:14Speaker 01

  How convenient.

• 2:52:15Speaker 02

  Very convenient.

• 2:52:16Speaker 01

  How convenient.

• 2:52:17Speaker 02

  But yeah, another, another big miracle that's like that is, over the tomb of Jesus Christ sits the Orthodox Church in Israel. Now, that's true, right, that is in fact the case, that there is an Orthodox Church, Christian Church is above the tomb.

• 2:52:31Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 2:52:32Speaker 02

  And every year, I think it's every year, they have the miracle of the Holy Sepulchre. I think I'm pronouncing that right, Sepulchre. And what they do is they use flame and emulate themselves in this holy flame, and they're burning, they're on fire, and none of them burn.

• 2:52:45Speaker 01

  What?

• 2:52:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:52:47Speaker 01

  How do they do that?

• 2:52:48Speaker 02

  Nobody knows, but there's.

• 2:52:51Speaker 01

  This is just one small sect of Christianity that lives there?

• 2:52:54Speaker 02

  No, no, this is the, this is the Orthodox Church, people come from miles around.

• 2:52:58Speaker 01

  But who, the people that light themselves on fire?

• 2:53:00Speaker 02

  These are people who are in the church, who are specially selected to basically emulate, you know, they set themselves on fire with the holy flame, from torches. And apparently, this is what I'm told, they've had people go and investigate, and they can't figure out how exactly this is being done, but they're completely on fire and they don't get hurt at all.

• 2:53:21Speaker 01

  Jamie, pull that up.

• 2:53:22Speaker 03

  I have, uh...

• 2:53:25Speaker 01

  Is there video of that?

• 2:53:26Speaker 02

  There is video.

• 2:53:27Speaker 03

  Before I get there, demonstration on Greek television. Dip five candles in white phosphorus, the candles spontaneously ignited for approximately 10 minutes due to the self-ignition properties of white phosphorus when in contact with the air. According to the website, it says that phosphorus is dissolved in an appropriate organic solvent, self-ignition is delayed until the solvent is completely evaporated. Period experiments showed the ignition can be delayed for half an hour or more, depending on the density of the solution.

• 2:53:53Speaker 01

  How does it stop them from catching fire, though, and dying?

• 2:53:56Speaker 03

  The same way, it's probably like the, you know, the shit the people put on to make movies, you know?

• 2:54:02Speaker 01

  He's a skeptic, this motherfucker, he's always ruining everything with all his logic.

• 2:54:07Speaker 02

  I think that skepticism is great if people actually practice the real philosophical tradition of skepticism, which is, you're supposed to also be skeptical of your view.

• 2:54:17Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:54:17Speaker 02

  So the real skeptics, I'll never forget this debate that I listened to, that it always stuck with me for years. It was with a guy named Jay Dyer and that same guy Matt Dillahunty, and they were debating and...

• 2:54:28Speaker 01

  Oh, here it is.

• 2:54:28Speaker 03

  I'm sorry.

• 2:54:30Speaker 01

  Go ahead, they were debating?

• 2:54:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, they were debating, and he said, the guy Dillahunty said, "Well, I'm a skeptic." And Jay said, "No, you're not, here's the actual philosophy of skepticism, and it always starts with you." Your view is what you apply skepticism to first, long before you ever apply it to any other. And the problem with people who describe themselves now as skeptics, "I'm a skeptic," they actually aren't really following skepticism, they're skeptical of your view. That doesn't mean that they're skeptical of their own, and it's supposed to start internally. That's what made skepticism, uh, kind of something that spread widely, was that it was a way for people to reject parts of their own worldview that didn't fit, they didn't match, they weren't coherent, they didn't make much sense.

• 2:55:17Speaker 02

  And so, most of the time I hear skepticism, uh, the person's not actually following the philosophy of skepticism, they're not applying it to their view first.

• 2:55:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's a lot of lazy skepticism, too, where they outright deny the, the existence of conspiracies, like, which is just fucking ludicrous. It's like, you're just, you're playing a very, you're in a very rigid corridor of ideas. You're only allowed to operate inside of it.

• 2:55:45Speaker 02

  Not only that, the US government has thousands of laws on the books about conspiracy. So it's like, our government seems to believe in them, because there's conspiracy to commit racketeering, conspiracy to murder, conspiracy to commit theft, conspiracy to commit wire fraud. Like, they clearly believe that there's a lot of conspiracies going on, and definitely prosecute people for conspiracies all the time, but somehow, when it comes to the skeptic mindset of conspiracy, nope, that's all tinfoil hats.

• 2:56:10Speaker 01

  It's a lazy perspective, and it's also a perspective that falls in line with what we were talking about before, where you take a lot of legitimate conspiracies, and you add a bunch of bullshit to it, to make it seem completely ludicrous, and then the whole thing can be thrown out and dismissed. It's like, it's so obvious that that's a, that's a ploy. Did you find anybody catching fire?

• 2:56:30Speaker 03

  Uh, the first, yeah, when I was getting into it, I was like, well, they're not really, they're like just dancing their hands over the fire, like, it wouldn't catch anybody on fire, technically, because you're not, you're not lighting anything on fire. See how it's like touching his skin?

• 2:56:42Speaker 02

  These guys don't look like priests, though.

• 2:56:44Speaker 03

  And then she's putting her hands through it and whatnot.

• 2:56:45Speaker 01

  Oh, so they're faking it? So there are a few people who are faking it, all these guys, lighting his beard on fire.

• 2:56:50Speaker 03

  So there was a lady that, at the end of one of these videos, she held a piece of paper over it, and it wasn't, I mean...

• 2:56:55Speaker 01

  Well, is this stuff like regular fire?

• 2:56:57Speaker 03

  But that's where I was gonna get into the white phosphorus, and they said after 30 minutes, it will start acting as you expect it to.

• 2:57:04Speaker 01

  Look at all, it seems like everybody should be on fire. How odd.

• 2:57:07Speaker 03

  But, yeah, it's a, it's a longstanding tradition, like she's wiping it on her forehead or something.

• 2:57:15Speaker 02

  Huge tradition there, they call it the miracle.

• 2:57:17Speaker 01

  Is another tradition in America called, I gotta take a pee, so, let's wrap this up. This was really fun, man, thank you very much.

• 2:57:22Speaker 02

  It was a lot of fun, I appreciate you having me in the studio.

• 2:57:24Speaker 01

  Always cool hanging out with you.

• 2:57:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:57:25Speaker 01

  I enjoy it.

• 2:57:26Speaker 02

  We went over a lot today.

• 2:57:26Speaker 01

  Lot of shit.

• 2:57:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:57:27Speaker 01

  A lot.

• 2:57:28Speaker 02

  And I enjoyed it very much, thank you.

• 2:57:29Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 2:57:30Speaker 02

  My pleasure.

• 2:57:30Speaker 01

  Let's do it again.

• 2:57:31Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 2:57:32Speaker 01

  Ladies and gentlemen, good night.