#2571 - Jimmy Carr

Jimmy Carr is a comedian, television personality, and writer. His new book, "On Jokes: The Hidden Mechanics of Funny," co-authored with Amanda Baker and Abi Grant, is available now. He is currently on tour.www.youtube.com/@jimmycarrwww.jimmycarr.com/product/on-jokeswww.jimmycarr.com Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan. Don’t miss out on all the action this week at DraftKings! Download the DraftKings app today! Sign-up using https://dkng.co/rogan or through my promo code ROGAN. Call of Duty Modern Warefare 4. Available now! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Joe Rogan?

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• 0:43Joe Rogan?

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• 1:26Joe Rogan?

  website builder, SEO optimization tools, and seamless checkouts with mobile pay links. Head to squarespace.com/rogan for a free trial, and when you are ready to launch, use the offer code ROGAN to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. After a year away, Canelo Alvarez is back in the ring October 31st, facing undefeated Christian Mubili live on The Zone, and DraftKings Sportsbook has you covered for the fight. With DraftKings Sportsbook, your number one sportsbook for live betting, you can stay connected as the action unfolds and makes your picks in real time. Whether you're locked in for the main event or watching the full card with friends, DraftKings

• 2:10Joe Rogan?

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• 2:27Speaker 01

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• 2:47Speaker 02

  The Joe Rogan Experience.

• 2:53Speaker 03

  Training by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day.

• 3:00Joe Rogan?

  Hey, Jimmy. Good to see you, friend.

• 3:04Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 3:05Joe Rogan?

  I want to thank you so much for introducing me to Clarkson.

• 3:08Speaker 04

  Oh, it's fun, right?

• 3:10Joe Rogan?

  Jeremy Clarkson is the best. He's exactly who you think he is. When you see him on TV, that's who he is. Fucking hilarious. He was so fun to talk to, such an interesting guy to talk to.

• 3:23Speaker 04

  Well, he came down to the mothership last night. I don't think he's been to a comedy club before.

• 3:26Joe Rogan?

  That's wild.

• 3:27Speaker 04

  He was like, what's going on? What's the show? And I'm doing a thing called Kill Tony. He went, I don't know what that is, Jim. Are you telling jokes? And I went, I'm sort of judging people telling. Oh, okay. And then he got to the mothership and went, can I get a rosé? Luckily, I think your missus has a bottle of rosé somewhere, which is now missing.

• 3:48Joe Rogan?

  They keep rosé there for.

• 3:50Speaker 04

  Yeah. Well, you know the guy he was with, Willman, who's his producer? They're childhood friends. They were in school together, and they've done everything together. They're just as thick as thieves.

• 4:01Joe Rogan?

  The whole origin story, how it started out with a syndicated story, a syndicated article.

• 4:07Speaker 04

  He started, he used to write reviews for cars in the local paper. He would write these articles, and he was like, he's always been like a really funny guy. So it would be a review of a car, but it would be kind of about life and what's going on in the world as well, always. And he'd write this really kind of funny piece, and then they decided, well, we can sell it to this local paper. But there's another local paper, and every, every sort of, you know, local paper's got a car section on a Wednesday, selling cars, and those guys advertise. And they had to make that look more like a paper, so you could just sell that to every newspaper in the country. So he ended up kind of making a fortune doing that. That's how he kind of got his reputation.

• 4:41Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 4:42Speaker 04

  Kind of clever to think about kind of how media changes over the years. That was kind of the old newspapers, local papers were the thing.

• 4:48Joe Rogan?

  And before he started writing the car articles, what was he doing then?

• 4:51Speaker 04

  Oh, I mean, nothing.

• 4:52Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 4:53Speaker 04

  Nothing. He was just like, just a guy. He graduated with nothing, I think. Didn't graduate university, just was like, oh.

• 5:00Joe Rogan?

  He's a funny guy. He was showing me his broken finger from when he punched Piers Morgan.

• 5:04Speaker 04

  Right, yeah. Yes, I think that's.

• 5:06Joe Rogan?

  He's like, do you see that? See that bump? That's from punching Piers Morgan.

• 5:11Speaker 04

  Well, well done him. I don't know.

• 5:16Joe Rogan?

  He's so fun, man. We had a great time.

• 5:19Speaker 04

  You've got to get him on.

• 5:20Joe Rogan?

  I would love to. He is a little apprehensive. He says every time he opens his mouth about anything on a podcast, the Daily Mail writes a terrible article about him.

• 5:29Speaker 04

  But it's that thing where you've got other people's opinions about me and none of my business.

• 5:33Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 5:34Speaker 04

  Like, people are going to write things, and that's okay.

• 5:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 5:37Speaker 04

  But at some stage, you just have to go, and I think it's like a superpower, not giving a fuck what other people think about you is a superpower. And if you can do that, like, I think, I think comics are maybe better at it because we're not entertainers in the pure sense. I remember this thing, like Robbie Williams said this thing to me. He said, I'm an entertainer in the pure sense. If you don't love me, I don't love me.

• 5:57Joe Rogan?

  Ooh. God, I don't think of musicians as being that way. I would never think of Bob Dylan as that way.

• 6:03Speaker 04

  Well, I think Bob Dylan is, I think the difference between an entertainer and an artist is if you say to an artist, I love your new record, and they go, well, that's interesting, but I don't give a fuck. It's my new record. And I think comics have got that thing where you go, I feel like I write the jokes, but I don't write the show.

• 6:19Joe Rogan?

  Do you really think that, like, an artist would say, I don't give a fuck if you like my record?

• 6:25Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 6:26Joe Rogan?

  I feel like there's a spectrum of giving a fuck what other people like, but the most important thing is you being able to express yourself. That's the most important thing. If you're expressing yourself only for other people's love and affection, like if you're just zooming in on what's going to give them the best response, what's going to get me the best response, the most love and affection from those people, that's a trap.

• 6:52Speaker 04

  I think that's audience capture. It's where you become, you become a cover's version of yourself.

• 6:58Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 6:59Speaker 04

  That thing of like, that fame being like a weird hall of mirrors, where you kind of reflect back what you think they want you to be.

• 7:06Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 7:07Speaker 04

  As opposed to.

• 7:08Joe Rogan?

  Audience capture.

• 7:09Speaker 04

  Yeah, finding something kind of exciting to do.

• 7:11Joe Rogan?

  But I do think that some people who are true artists, like I've, I know musicians that are like really good musicians and very popular, and when people come up to them and say they loved a certain song or they loved a certain album, they genuinely get happy. I think that's possible. I think it's possible to say, thank you, I really appreciate that. I'm glad you loved that album. I've seen it happen.

• 7:34Speaker 04

  I wonder if it's a continuum of like, okay, so you've got like, I don't know, Picasso at one end going, listen, I do what I do, and I've got to express myself, and on the other end, it's the guy kind of dancing desperately trying to get the audience on his side.

• 7:47Joe Rogan?

  Well, I think it's a spectrum of varying personalities with the same kind of goal. The kind of goal for an artist is you have an idea, and you want to figure out the best form of it to present to other people, right?

• 8:04Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 8:05Joe Rogan?

  And there's all sorts of mentally ill people that get invested in this, too. There's people that are out of their fucking mind. There's, I mean, Jerry Lee Lewis was accused of drowning his wife. He married his, what was it? How old was the girl that he married? Young.

• 8:23Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 8:24Joe Rogan?

  He famously went on before Chuck, who did he go on before? Was it Chuck? What was the story where he lit the piano on fire?

• 8:38Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 8:38Speaker 04

  I think that's where he had to go.

• 8:40Joe Rogan?

  He was twenty-two and he married his thirteen-year-old first cousin, once removed. Okay.

• 8:46Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 8:47Joe Rogan?

  So you gotta separate the artist from the art. That's what they always say, right? But my point is, like, you got that, and then you've got, you know, Kurt Cobain, you've got Jimi Hendrix, you've got Janis Joplin.

• 9:01Speaker 04

  I would, I'd make a distinction here between, um, hyper-accelerated rationality, like, super-smart people doing great stuff, and actual genius. I think genius always comes with a little sprinkle of crazy.

• 9:16Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 9:16Speaker 04

  I think it's like, there is a, there is a price to pay that you would not wanna pay. So whether it's, you know, Michael Jackson, or, you know, Kurt Cobain, like tortured souls.

• 9:24Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 9:25Speaker 04

  Creating this incredible entertainment for us. But they're going to a very dark place. Like, I've got a theory about the Twenty-Seven Club. You know the Twenty-Seven Club of, like, all the people that died at age twenty-seven? These incredible musicians, Janis Joplin, and Jimi Hendrix, and Amy Winehouse, these, like, incredible artists. And I think it's because they are more sensitive than we are. That they've got, like, everything is, they're feeling everything, and to be that good. So then they're numbing themselves. The drugs are the medication to just, I need to not feel this.

• 10:02Joe Rogan?

  Well, there's certainly a lot of that going on. No one would deny that. You know, um, it's just, I think whenever you're trying to categorize a group as large as artists, and lump them into a specific type of personality traits, that, you know, a predetermined pattern of personality traits, I don't think you could do it. I've just met too many that are so different. I've met, like, really arrogant ones that are clearly mentally ill, that produce incredible works. Like, Kanye West clearly has some mental issues.

• 10:38Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think that's undeniable.

• 10:39Joe Rogan?

  But, man, that motherfucker knows how to make some bangers.

• 10:42Speaker 04

  Yes, it's extraordinary.

• 10:43Joe Rogan?

  That dude, he's...

• 10:44Speaker 04

  He's like the prime example of, like, you wouldn't wanna be, I wouldn't wanna be a genius. I'll be, I'll just do my thing, that's great. But that, the price to pay.

• 10:52Joe Rogan?

  I asked Elon Musk once about that, and he said, "You wouldn't wanna be me." He goes, "You wouldn't wanna," he goes, "I just, my brain never stops moving. It's like, it's horrible."

• 11:03Speaker 04

  Well, I kinda think that thing about...

• 11:04Joe Rogan?

  It's like a storm going on in my head all the time.

• 11:06Speaker 04

  I sometimes think about that with anxiety. You know that idea that, like, anxiety is thought without control, and a flow state is control without thought? Like, the idea that you could be in a flow state where you're not, you're kind of, you're not thinking, you're just doing the thing. Sometimes onstage, you can hit that. And then, but the anxiety, all of the anxiety that I have, if I wake up and I have a panic attack, and I'm, I'm kind of, my mind is spinning, is also the thing that's written every joke I've ever written, and done everything I've ever done, that kind of, that nervous energy. So there's always, like, a positive to it. But take it to its extreme, where you go, "The guy can't relax. The guy can't sort of..."

• 11:46Speaker 04

  I mean, I think, here's my theory on Elon Musk. I think he's gonna find religion in the next twelve months, 'cause, right, there's a theory, right? It's four things that keep us from God, right? There's, okay, so fame, fortune, power, and pleasure. And I think he's won every one of those games. And I think he's gonna get bored, and he's gonna have to go and find God.

• 12:09Joe Rogan?

  Interesting.

• 12:09Speaker 04

  Fame, fortune, power, pleasure.

• 12:12Joe Rogan?

  Maybe he creates God. Maybe that's what they're in the middle of doing with these fucking computers.

• 12:18Speaker 04

  Well, this is my, you know, the, I'm with Hegel and Nietzsche on this, right? So I don't think, I don't think we were created in God's image. Right? But I think we so wanted there to be a God, that we created one in our image. I'm gonna describe something to you. It's all-powerful, all-knowing, it can create miracles, and it lives in a cloud. Now, am I talking about God or AI? And both Hegel and Nietzsche got to this a hundred fifty years ago. They, they, they went, "Well, is the universe, was God there for the Big Bang? Or is the universe a device for creating God?"

• 12:55Joe Rogan?

  That's what I, I believe as well. I believe that it's the whole reason why we innovate. It's the whole reason why we're obsessed with material possessions. I think all of that fuels innovation. And the innovation eventually fuels the creation of a digital life form. And it used to sound like science fiction till about twenty years ago, and now we're deep in the middle of it, where it's undeniable.

• 13:15Speaker 04

  That's interesting, 'cause, like, you like the Egyptian culture, right? The myths and legends and the pyramids. 'Cause it strikes me that the Greeks got a lot from the Egyptians.

• 13:24Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 13:24Speaker 04

  The Greeks basically looked at the Egyptians and went, "Oh, they fell to, they fell to nothing, because they, they never innovated. They never changed anything." So the Greeks kind of wanted not to make, they didn't wanna make that mistake, like, "We live closer to Cleopatra than Cleopatra lived to the building of the pyramids."

• 13:40Joe Rogan?

  We, yes.

• 13:41Speaker 04

  That's like a weird fact. They never, 'cause they, once they, once they had it locked in, they just went, "Okay, that's us. This is our system." As opposed to the...

• 13:49Joe Rogan?

  There's a, that's a narrative of, of history, and you should look into the work of your fellow countryman, Graham Hancock. Do you know who he is?

• 13:57Speaker 04

  No, I don't know.

• 13:58Joe Rogan?

  Okay, Graham Hancock had a show on Netflix for two seasons. I don't know if they're gonna do a third, but it's called Ancient Apocalypse. Is that it? That's it, right? And it's all about how...

• 14:08Speaker 04

  Was this made for you?

• 14:10Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 14:11Speaker 04

  This feels like it was made specifically for you.

• 14:12Joe Rogan?

  I, I've been a fan of his for a long time. He has, he was actually one of the first guests I ever had on this podcast, actual guests.

• 14:19Speaker 04

  Oh, wow, okay.

• 14:20Joe Rogan?

  Other than being comedian friends of mine, me and Duncan convinced him to do the podcast when the podcast was, like, no one was on.

• 14:28Speaker 04

  I think I have heard this guy on here when he came back.

• 14:32Joe Rogan?

  He's been on many, many times. He's a very good friend of mine now. I love him to death. But I think he's right. And I think he's not alone now. There's dozens of legitimate archaeologists that share his ideas. And then on top of that, you have people that are studying impacts on Earth from extrastellar or interstellar, any kind of asteroid, comet impacts, all those different... There's a lot more information about that now than they've ever had before. And there's a big one that aligns up with the end of this previous civilization that probably created all these great works, and what we have now, in this sort of five-thousand-year period of reconstruction of civilization.

• 15:14Speaker 04

  Let me see if I can tie all of this together.

• 15:16Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 15:16Speaker 04

  Okay? Artists, Elon Musk's, and the, and the pyramids.

• 15:20Joe Rogan?

  And AI.

• 15:21Speaker 04

  Here we go, and AI. Here we go. I think, uh, this is Terence McKenna's point originally. So pyramids and rockets are the same thing.

• 15:29Joe Rogan?

  How's that?

• 15:30Speaker 04

  Okay, so it's a huge amount of human capital is used to spend a chosen, to send a chosen few to the heavens. That's what a pyramid is for.

• 15:39Joe Rogan?

  Eh, I don't think that's what the pyramid's for.

• 15:41Speaker 04

  And that is what a rocket is for.

• 15:43Joe Rogan?

  There's a lot of debate on what the pyramid's for now, but most likely it was some sort of a device. They were using it for something.

• 15:50Speaker 04

  But, but again, it's, it's for the transcendent, is the idea.

• 15:53Joe Rogan?

  I don't know...

• 15:54Speaker 04

  So his take was...

• 15:55Joe Rogan?

  That idea doesn't hold up anymore. There, there's a lot of information about the actual design of the inner dimensions of the pyramid, the pyramid, that leads a lot of legitimate, especially younger archaeologists now, to try to examine what exactly this thing is. Do you know that, do you know about all the new discoveries that they've found because of the ground-penetrating radar?

• 16:16Speaker 04

  Yeah, I, I, I don't, kinda don't know what to make of it, because it feels to me like the, the, the news cycle now, it feels like that would've been a year's worth of news had that happened fifteen years ago. And now it feels like we move on so quickly.

• 16:30Joe Rogan?

  Well, the problem is, it's very gate-kept in Egypt. Like, that guy that I had on my podcast, Zahi Hawass, he's in charge of whatever gets distributed, about whatever official narrative, whatever press releases, he's sort of at the front of the line, and he has been for a long time. And they're very reluctant to give up those reins to any new discovery that doesn't have his name on it, and doesn't have their name on it. It's not approved by them. It's a real problem, because there's this, there's this labyrinth that was discovered by, well, it was documented by Herodotus. So we're talking thousands of years ago. This incredible structure underneath Giza that's greater than Giza. Now, they know

• 17:13Joe Rogan?

  that's real now. They've done, they've used ground-penetrating radar now. And there was also an explorer, I think, was it the eighteen hundreds who went down there? But he could only go so far. So the water table changed. They had built a dam in the nineteen sixties, and that was really fucked it up, where they can't go back in there anymore. And so when they built this dam to help agriculture, it raised the water table all around the Giza Plateau, and this labyrinth, this under, incredible underground structure, was all flooded. So they're trying to figure out what to do about that now, but because of ground-penetrating radar, not only do they know that this exists, without doubt, like, they can absolutely document the immense size, but that there's also a forty-meter-long metallic object that's

• 17:57Joe Rogan?

  in the center of a large atrium that looks like a Tic Tac. They don't know what it is, they don't know what metal it is, but they do know it's made out of metal, and it's forty meters long. And it's underground in this insane structure.

• 18:11Speaker 04

  And this is from five thousand years ago?

• 18:13Joe Rogan?

  Probably longer. This is, this is the real problem.

• 18:16Speaker 04

  Yeah, it feels like...

• 18:17Joe Rogan?

  The real problem is, we don't know what the origin story of humanity is accurately. We don't know. This is what the Jesus story is, and the Adam and Eve story. There's all these stories, but what we get is, there was probably some sort of an event, and then people talked about it for hundreds of years before anybody ever wrote it down. And no one who wrote it down was there, and no one has an accurate, a really accurate representation of what that person says, including the works of Jesus.

• 18:48Speaker 04

  Yeah. Well, this is like, I suppose it's that thing of the, uh, the carcass of the whale. Like, the idea that we're living in a world that we couldn't build again. Like, like, you know, from Britain, you go, "We were the first industrializing nation, right? We built the first railways." And now we are totally incapable of building a railway. Like, the last fifteen years, twenty years, the, the Chinese have covered themselves in high-speed rail, and we've covered ourselves in environmental reports.

• 19:18Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 19:18Speaker 04

  We seem incapable of kind of getting shit done. So you go, you have these weird things where you go, the, the pyramids are there, and we've, we've kind of lost the instruction manual. We couldn't do that again now.

• 19:27Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 19:28Speaker 04

  If we tried. It's a weird thing with civilizations, where they kind of, I don't know, when, like, how did Rome fall? There, there's a theory about, like, how civilizations fall.

• 19:36Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 19:37Speaker 04

  Um, Peter Turchin has this really good theory, which is, it's two things. It's, uh, one is inequality, uh, and one is the overproduction of elites. So you have too many people becoming elites, and then they don't get what is promised to the elites. Because you open up, so, so too many people go to university, if half of everyone goes to university, then they can't, and they get the degree, and they work hard, and then they don't get the life that they were promised. Then they become a counter-elite. And they rebel against the elite. And the inequality becomes, you know, too great and, you know, everything crumbles. That's his kind of theory through history of how, you know, society's kind of come crashing down.

• 20:19Joe Rogan?

  Well, that, that, that's certainly a factor and we're experiencing that right now. I think the factor that they were dealing with was asteroid impacts and documented ones. So this is a part of the Younger Dryas theory that's undeniable is that they'd done ice core samples. And in these ice core samples, they find high levels of iridium in a lot of areas.

• 20:41Speaker 04

  Right.

• 20:41Joe Rogan?

  Iridium is very common in space, very rare on earth. When there's a layer of it, it usually indicates that we were hit.

• 20:47Speaker 04

  Right.

• 20:47Joe Rogan?

  And this is all around that same time period of 11,000 years ago.

• 20:51Speaker 04

  Well, it's interesting as well, like what effect that has on the greater, on the globe. Like there's that famous case of like, people talk about, you know, the environment, what's going on with our environment. And really Krakatoa is a great example, right? So when Krakatoa went off, it was such a big volcanic eruption, there was no summer in Europe the next year. Because all of the particles went up into the stratosphere, above the stratosphere, and they reflected light. So the earth cooled by like two degrees.

• 21:18Joe Rogan?

  What year was this?

• 21:19Speaker 04

  This is 18 Hillel.

• 21:21Joe Rogan?

  1883? Wow.

• 21:23Speaker 04

  That like no summer in Europe, like, and, and Europe was, I guess, probably, probably no summer in the world, but they didn't measure it anywhere else. So then there's kind of mass starvation off the back of that.

• 21:31Joe Rogan?

  Right, of course.

• 21:31Speaker 04

  And, you know, and, and again, you know, like, uh, uh, civil unrest and, and people kind of falling to pieces because...

• 21:37Joe Rogan?

  Do you know about the Toba one, the Toba volcano? There was one that's, uh, what was it? Was that 70,000 years ago? Think DraftKings isn't available in your state, think again. DraftKings is now live in all 50 states. And on October 31st, Canelo Alvarez returns to the ring to face undefeated Christian Mobily live on Dzone. Download the DraftKings Sports app and use code ROGEN. New DraftKings customers can spend five and get 200 in total bonuses. Includes all markets. That's code ROGEN in partnership with DraftKings. The crown is yours.

• 22:13Speaker 01

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• 22:50Joe Rogan?

  It knocked humanity down to a few thousand people.

• 22:53Speaker 04

  I think it's 60,000 is like the little, is the, is the thing, the lowest we got to, I think. Which is extraordinary when you think about it.

• 22:59Joe Rogan?

  From a supervolcano. And so a supervolcano is, uh, you know, it's not extraterrestrial. It's a thing that's actually here. It's a natural disaster that occurs periodically on earth, whereas the sky is a shooting gallery. And we are, we are in the middle of a crazy pathway where we run into 900 plus thousand near earth objects. And we're spiraling through the galaxy, hurling into space at an insane rate of speed.

• 23:29Speaker 04

  I mean, it kind of makes me feel dizzy.

• 23:31Joe Rogan?

  And then there's these city sized objects that are just floating around. And occasionally they come rocking in at five times the speed of sound and slam into the earth. And it rings like a bell for a million years. And that's what killed the dinosaurs.

• 23:46Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 23:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I mean, within seconds, it was miles into the earth.

• 23:50Speaker 04

  The dinosaurs were, um, I forget what the name is, there's a biological term for it, but the, the eggs below a certain temperature were male and above a certain temperature were female. Dinosaur eggs.

• 24:00Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 24:00Speaker 04

  So, and that, that would, that worked pretty well for, for the distribution of gender.

• 24:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 24:05Speaker 04

  Uh, and so when the, when the asteroid hit, obviously it kills a couple of dinosaurs that it hits. But what really happens is the earth cools by two degrees and their system just goes. So they're all born female.

• 24:15Joe Rogan?

  That makes sense.

• 24:16Speaker 04

  And then they all die out. So any animal with that system. So then there's ones that didn't die out that didn't have that system. So the reason, you know, crocodiles or sharks, they're, you know, things from that era that just didn't, didn't depend on that system for gender distribution.

• 24:29Joe Rogan?

  I was just reading about an animal, some sort of a reptile that they've just recently observed getting pregnant without a male involved. And that this was unsuspected. They didn't think that they could do this. It was, oh God, I wish I was paying more attention to it. But that happens all the time in the weird lizard world. Like the same kind of creatures that can grow their own legs back when they lose a leg. They also...

• 24:58Speaker 04

  What's going on there?

• 24:59Joe Rogan?

  What the fuck is going on there? And how come we can't do that? That they also get heavily affected, uh, their sexual organs get affected by things like herbic, like atrazine. You know, that stuff that, that gets dumped into the water that turns, Alex Jones famously said, turns frogs gay?

• 25:16Speaker 04

  Oh, right, okay, well.

• 25:17Joe Rogan?

  Turns out it really does. Turns out it really does. It really changes their gender. It turns a male frog into a female frog.

• 25:24Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, we're messing around with stuff we don't, yeah. That can't be good, can it?

• 25:28Joe Rogan?

  But no, but it's just weird to me how the lizard world is so odd like that. They're so much different than the rest of us. Like the lizard world, we should be very terrified if we ever get invaded by reptiles. Like if reptilian aliens are a real thing.

• 25:42Speaker 04

  I'll make a note of that somewhere, yeah. I mean, that seems like a pretty good idea.

• 25:45Joe Rogan?

  They can grow their limbs back. Also, they like, some of them don't need to eat for a year. Like crocodiles, they can not eat for a whole year. They can hold their breath underwater for hours at a time, slow their heart rate down to almost nothing.

• 25:58Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, I'm, listen, I'm with you. If we get invaded by crocodiles, I think we need to take it very seriously.

• 26:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 26:03Speaker 04

  It might bring humanity together, which would be the good thing.

• 26:06Joe Rogan?

  That something would, like another 9/11 or something. We need, almost we need be attacked. We're so divided right now.

• 26:14Speaker 04

  Inequality is the big thing that Peter Turchin talks about, like bringing down civilizations. But some, this other guy did a, did a study on the, the things that cause equality. And there are four things, right? So you've got to be careful what you wish for, because the things that, that cause equality to happen are it's war, revolution, civilizational collapse and pandemics.

• 26:35Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 26:35Speaker 04

  Like those are the things that equal out society. It's just like, it's, it's terrible.

• 26:41Joe Rogan?

  Pandemic did for a little bit, I think. I think in the, the beginning, it kind of brought people together and sort of settled people down to like what was actually important in life. The very early days when we were really worried that people were going to die from it. There was like, no, when no one knew what the severity of the infection was and we were just hearing about this disease from China and we're locking down the country. That was genuinely terrifying and sobering.

• 27:06Speaker 04

  Everyone went through the same thing.

• 27:08Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 27:08Speaker 04

  Everyone had the same experience. People reacted very differently to it, but everyone went through the same experience, like that, that kind of, the global lockdown.

• 27:16Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 27:17Speaker 04

  Were, but it, it, yeah.

• 27:19Joe Rogan?

  It wasn't uniting though, after a while. Because after a while, it became very divisive, especially when there was the whole, are you with or without the vaccines? Like, are you Apple or are you Android? It's like, it, it, it's one of those tribal things that people do. Are you Republican, are you a Democrat? Even whether they're skeptical about pharmaceutical drug companies, normally they'll abandon all that. If there's some sort of an ideological group that you're a part of that thinks one way or another. And that happened during the pandemic.

• 27:48Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 27:49Joe Rogan?

  Which I never thought we would see.

• 27:50Speaker 04

  I think it's a little window into...

• 27:52Joe Rogan?

  Fierce fights about pharmaceutical drugs and whether or not you believe in the pharmaceutical drug company. And that the people on the left would be the ones that were telling you these massive multi-billion dollar corporations that have the highest criminal fines in all of human history. Those are the ones we should be trusting? But that happened in this country and it happened all around the world.

• 28:12Speaker 04

  It happened all over the world. I mean, it was, it was a, it was a, a shit show. I mean, it, it shut down everything.

• 28:17Joe Rogan?

  But that was the divide. The divide was the medication and what path we took to get out of it. If that didn't exist, if it was just, there is no, there's no medication. The only thing you could do is be healthy enough to be resilient and get through the cold, but we're all going to get it. If that was the narrative.

• 28:35Speaker 04

  Is this not what's happening right now though, in terms of going, if you look at what we're doing, right? Gain of function research, which is, it almost certainly came from gain of function research, which is like looking for a gas leak, leak with a, with a lit match, right? So it's just inherently dangerous. But this is kind of the, um, I don't know if it is even a conspiracy now, but the, the, the search for AGI strikes me as a similar kind of thing, right? The, the, you're searching for the, the last invention, the last thing that you'll ever need. Um, you heard this, the conspiracy about solstice.

• 29:09Joe Rogan?

  Well, I think AGI has a legitimate potential to change our lives for the better. It's just, will it?

• 29:16Speaker 04

  Yes. Is this, is the future, is it Star Trek or Star Wars?

• 29:20Joe Rogan?

  There's no way these engineering viruses to be more virulent, to be more, uh, infect more people more easily, to kill people more. There's no way that's good. There's nothing good out of that. But the AGI potentially could change society, potentially for the better. It's just, it's like, what's the number? Like, how does it go?

• 29:43Speaker 04

  Yeah, and, and it's, it's a, it's a knife edge of like...

• 29:45Joe Rogan?

  But gain of function's not doing anything good for us. There was no cure. They had all these diseases that they engineered and they had no idea how to treat them.

• 29:52Speaker 04

  No, I remember like they wiped out polio in the, in the 50s and then they, and then they, they kept some.

• 29:58Joe Rogan?

  You should look into that story too.

• 29:58Speaker 04

  But they, but they kept some.

• 29:59Joe Rogan?

  That story's kind of fucking crazy too. You know what?

• 30:02Speaker 04

  I heard the lady on here talking about it, but I mean, it's like, you go, they definitely, polio was something.

• 30:07Joe Rogan?

  Well, polio still is a problem, but the real problem back then was there was polio and then there was DDT spraying. And that's a big part of the story, a gigantic part of the story, is that the polio epidemic in America aligns with DDT use. Ubiquitous DDT use all over the country. It's, and DDT poisoning has the exact same symptoms of paralytic polio. It's the same symptoms. And in fact, a lot of animals during that same time period, cows, horses, farm animals in rural areas were getting polio. Same symptoms. Why? Because it's fucking DDT poisoning.

• 30:43Speaker 04

  Right, I remember John Stewart telling me to follow this, that like there was just spraying the neighborhood.

• 30:48Joe Rogan?

  You wanted, yes. And that's what happened, that, that happened all across America. What percentage of polio do you think is asymptomatic?

• 30:58Speaker 04

  I've no idea.

• 30:59Joe Rogan?

  Take a guess.

• 31:01Speaker 04

  Are you symptomatic?

• 31:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, no symptoms at all. You got polio?

• 31:04Speaker 04

  Ten percent.

• 31:05Joe Rogan?

  Ninety-five to ninety-nine.

• 31:08Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 31:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, we'll look that up just so we you know it's accurate. That's the real number.

• 31:14Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 31:14Joe Rogan?

  That's the real number. And so we don't know how much of what happened during the polio crisis was polio, which can certainly hurt people, certainly not good to get polio, certainly not good to get paralytic polio. Certainly, no one's saying that. However, the DDT use was happening at the same time. This is seventy percent, but I've seen it listed as ninety-five percent recently. So I don't know why this.

• 31:42Speaker 04

  But hey, even it's not like seventy percent isn't interesting.

• 31:45Joe Rogan?

  No, it's certainly so this is like no symptoms at all. Seventy percent of the people get no symptoms. Now, I had read that it was ninety-five to ninety-nine percent. I'm interested, put it into a different search engine and see if there's other.

• 31:57Speaker 04

  Is this maybe the worst thing that so when you talk about the.

• 32:01Joe Rogan?

  Hold on, this is why it is. This is why it's it's I'm sorry, put it back up, it explained it. So seventy percent, no symptoms whatsoever, approximately twenty-five percent mild symptoms, such as fever, headache or sore throat.

• 32:14Speaker 04

  All right, I've got a sore throat, it's not polio.

• 32:16Joe Rogan?

  It's not developing paralysis, it's not the same as being asymptomatic. So you have mild symptoms for twenty-five percent of the people and zero systems, zero symptoms, rather, for seventy percent of the people.

• 32:28Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, it's still a terrible disease, but even if you look at that and go.

• 32:31Joe Rogan?

  Terrible disease.

• 32:32Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 32:32Joe Rogan?

  However, so is spraying DDT ubiquitously in neighborhoods. That's fucking terrible, too. And this is the dirty secret about the whole polio crisis. It's not that polio is good to get, no big deal, go get polio. Fuck that, don't get polio, polio is bad. However, they were spraying DDT everywhere and it gives you the same fucking symptoms. And the two things stopped when they stopped spraying DDT everywhere. Doctor Suzanne Humphries, she was a guest on the show.

• 33:01Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 33:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, she's I just want to tell people that are listening, there's a great book called Dissolving Illusions. And if you just counter check all the things that she put in that book, you can read it all online, you'll find out she's telling the truth. And it's indicative of the same shit that we just went through with the with the covid epidemic. It's indicative of, there's a ton of different stories of what we think are good pharmaceutical drug solutions for a problem that's happening that turn out to be horrendous for people and give them terrible side effects. And you you you know, you see all these people that are suing and you find that pharmaceutical drug companies can make money off of it, even though it was killing people. Like the there's a Vioxx example in America, it was an anti-inflammatory medication.

• 33:47Joe Rogan?

  And they were giving fifty thousand plus people died. They got strokes, they knew that people were going to get strokes before they released it. But they did it because they knew they could make money off of it. And this is just this continual pattern that we can see throughout history. We want to believe in these institutions, but oftentimes these institutions are corrupted by money. And when we find out that they're corrupted by money, it's too late. They've already poisoned you or they've already given you some drugs that cause strokes.

• 34:14Speaker 04

  Here's a strange thing, I've been traveling around Canada, America on tour, you know, I'm kind of always on the road. And you notice things, right? So you notice like the fentanyl thing happens in North America.

• 34:23Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 34:24Speaker 04

  But it does not happen in Europe.

• 34:25Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 34:25Speaker 04

  What's going on there?

• 34:26Joe Rogan?

  The Sackler family. Do you know the whole story?

• 34:29Speaker 04

  Well, the I I remember the the the kind of controversy about people giving out the idea that you should never be in pain.

• 34:37Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 34:37Speaker 04

  Was kind of promoted, the idea that any kind of pain or discomfort is unacceptable. So you need to be no pain at all, so pushing the idea of those painkillers, which were opiates.

• 34:46Joe Rogan?

  Well, yes, not just that, but also saying that they're non-addictive. And then also promoting this idea that you're just kind of on them all the time and everything's fine. And that's what you need, just be on them all the time and you're going to be fine. And they got doctors to go along with this. They got doctors to subscribe to these ideas and promote them.

• 35:06Speaker 04

  But the fentanyl, the the.

• 35:08Joe Rogan?

  Because it's an opiate.

• 35:09Speaker 04

  Yeah, but the the idea, how is that happening only in North America?

• 35:12Joe Rogan?

  Well, because we're next to Mexico, we're connected to Mexico, and that's where it's coming in. And China's bringing in the precursors. So China ships the precursors to Mexico, the cartel makes the fentanyl, they sneak it across the border. And that has been going on because there's an opioid crisis in America. Mariana Van Zeller, do you know who she is?

• 35:29Speaker 04

  No.

• 35:30Joe Rogan?

  Brilliant reporter, I mean, like a real courageous woman, boots on the ground journalism, went to Columbia and was with people while they were making cocaine and walked with them through the jungle as they packed it out. She mean, she she goes to crazy places where she can get killed all the time. And she started out, while I became introduced to her from a piece she did called The Oxycontin Express. And The Oxycontin Express, it was all about Florida. And Florida had these pain management centers. And say if you hurt your back, you go to a pain man, oh, I'm in pain, well, you should go to the pain center. If you're if you don't know anything about how corrupt the medical system is, you you would go, oh, that's the thing you go to for pain, they're pain experts, fine, they probably tell me what to do.

• 36:15Joe Rogan?

  You go there, they only prescribe Oxycontin. So there's a pharmacy connected to the pain management center. You go to the pain management center, what's wrong, Jimmy, your back hurts? I got you. They write, you go right next door, right next door, and all they sell is Oxycontin and no database. So you leave that pain management center and you go to another pain management center a mile away. And then you go to another pain center and they're all over Florida. And so people would go and fill their trunks up with Oxycontin and then drive up through Kentucky and Ohio. And that's The Oxycontin Express. And that made addicts like traceable destruction of communities all throughout the land. And this was all because of corrupt politics. It was all because of corrupt pharmaceutical representatives.

• 37:00Joe Rogan?

  It was because of corrupt doctors that everybody turned a blind eye to make a ton of money. And most importantly, the Sackler family. This one family made billions and billions of dollars promoting this idea that you should be on pills all the time.

• 37:16Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's it's a horror show.

• 37:19Joe Rogan?

  And they're in jail, they're not in jail.

• 37:20Speaker 04

  Like it's a horror show out there, like there's certain cities that just seem to be so hard hit by this. Like the the the middle of the town, it's like a it's like an interactive Walking Dead experience. It's like just people bent double on this drug and you go when no one seems to be helping. There doesn't seem to be any any help for these people.

• 37:39Joe Rogan?

  It is really good at getting you. It's really good, it gets disciplined people. It gets people that have a like a work ethic and a good family.

• 37:50Speaker 04

  Remember when crystal meth kind of first happened, because that again, only happened in America, didn't happen in Europe.

• 37:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 37:56Speaker 04

  Like, I'm not saying we don't have a problem with drugs in Europe, but it's not to the same extent. And the idea, and that remember that poster, there used to be a poster of a like she was a good looking girl. And then and over the course of like six years or ten years, she became kind of, you know.

• 38:10Joe Rogan?

  Attainable.

• 38:11Speaker 04

  Like. Ashen faced and sunken or whatever, yeah.

• 38:17Joe Rogan?

  You got to lower her standards if you wanted to go on a date with you, get her on meth.

• 38:20Speaker 04

  But that was like the ten years, it seems to take people out in just a matter of weeks now.

• 38:25Joe Rogan?

  Well, fentanyl and meth are very different things. So meth is an amphetamine, obviously, and amphetamines. There are a ton of people in this country right now who are addicted to amphetamines legally. It's called Adderall, okay? And you can make up all your reasons why people need it. I don't have any energy, I have ADHD, I can't concentrate. They will fucking give it to you. They will give it to you pretty easy. You just complain a bunch of times, come in with a lot of brain fog. It'd be so easy to dupe your doctor into giving you Adderall. One hundred percent it would be easy to do. And then this is. It's legal for them to do.

• 39:05Speaker 04

  And what is it basically?

• 39:06Joe Rogan?

  It's fucking speed.

• 39:07Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah, I remember that, yeah.

• 39:09Joe Rogan?

  Well, you know, she was a rough twenty-eight, right? Twenty-eight, she looks like a twenty-eight bare knuckle boxer, like one of them bare knuckle boxer chicks with scars all over their face. She looks like she had a hard life.

• 39:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, thirty-three, she's pretty attainable, I think I could, yeah.

• 39:24Joe Rogan?

  You could have got her at thirty-three.

• 39:25Speaker 04

  That's attainable, yeah.

• 39:27Joe Rogan?

  There's always going to be addictions that you can avoid, right? Like, a great one is gambling, it's very controversial in America. Like, should gambling be legal?

• 39:41Speaker 04

  Right.

• 39:42Joe Rogan?

  I'm a guy who's been to Vegas a million times. I'm a guy who is, I work for the UFC. I do comedy shows in Vegas. I'm always, I like the idea of going there. Don't blow all your money, stupid. It's like, at what point in time do we take responsibility for, if you don't have any money, don't gamble it.

• 40:01Speaker 04

  Well, I think it's that thing with, I think young men, I mean, I, I've got a bit on this, like a, not a joke, but like an idea on this. I'm like, you know, young men in crisis. I'm like, I'm pro gang, pro, uh, pro gang, pro gambling and pro drinking. Like, I think, you know, that thing of like gambling is not sports gambling, not gambling on, something to give you a cheap little dopamine hit whenever you need it, like that thing of like the interval reward system.

• 40:30Joe Rogan?

  Gatekeep gambling?

• 40:31Speaker 04

  No, no, the idea of gambling on yourself. The idea of like, the big gamble in life. If you take a big gamble, then you don't need those little gambles, right? We got very lucky. We got into comedy. So it's like, it's a gamble. I'm gonna try this line. It's like, we, we get the dopamine. There's good ways to get it and bad ways to get it. So encouraging the good ways. Human nature is fixed and flawed, right? Young men are gonna want dopamine and risk. But how do we, how do we sort of point them towards something that's useful? So my thing was like, gangs, terrible. Gangs, you know, shoot each other and, and deal drugs. But not all of them. A lot of gangs are just, it's young men together. And the idea of like drinking, as a, like I've set up youth clubs all around Great Britain, right? And there's pool tables and there's jukeboxes and music and there's, there's booze.

• 41:15Joe Rogan?

  Social places.

• 41:16Speaker 04

  No, they're called pubs. Yes. And that's where, I think, young men, where should they be together? They, they, they check each other very well, but the idea that they should be together, the drinking age, should reflect reality rather than a wish. Like, it's 21 in America. That's insane. 16-year-olds drink. I don't think they should be allowed to drink alone. That like, it should be a social thing. That we go, as humans, we go, okay. Where do you learn to get on socially with other people? It's not the school. It's a, it can be a bar, but the bar can have a, a football team and a, a baseball team. And it can be a place where you learn how to interact with other people.

• 41:53Joe Rogan?

  We should also explain to them that it does affect your brain development. And you should be very careful about getting drunk or high when you're young. Don't do it a lot. It's bad for you. The same, I was gonna flesh out my point about gambling. I, I have this opinion about gambling. Like, don't, don't gamble if you can't afford to lose. And if you got a problem, stop gambling. But I have seen it. The problem is, I've seen the grip of it. I've seen it grab people. I've seen people. Did you ever see Uncut Gems, that Adam Sandler movie?

• 42:22Speaker 04

  That was like, so, it was like anxiety in, in celluloid form.

• 42:27Joe Rogan?

  Genius film.

• 42:28Speaker 04

  It's so good. He's such a great actor.

• 42:30Joe Rogan?

  He's amazing. And he plays that gambling addict so well. I, when I was between ages of like 23 to 27, I spent all my time at pool halls. Like, I was addicted to playing pool. I played in tournaments, played constantly. I was around gambling addicts 24 hours a day.

• 42:45Speaker 04

  So this is The Hustler, this is Color of Money.

• 42:48Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But the real, the real thing.

• 42:51Speaker 04

  Was it all money? Was it, was, was everything for money? So you're playing for money all the time? It's not fun, it's just?

• 42:56Joe Rogan?

  Well, no, people played for fun, like, people like me who suck. But the really, really good players, they always played for money. They only played for money. They practiced and then they played for money. And it was all about gambling. It was all about action. Everybody was in action. You would go to the pool hall, it was, it was gambling all the time. It was gambling on sports. It was off-track betting before they got there. They would go to off-track betting and bet on the races. And then they would come and complain about the races that they lost. And then they would get into card games until some, someone showed up that wanted action. And someone would show up and they wanted a bet and then people would be betting on the sidelines. If you and Jamie were playing, I put my money on you. Let's go, come on. And now you're sweating it.

• 43:37Joe Rogan?

  You got a sweat bet going on. And somebody wants to get in on it, you know, I want two games on the wire. Okay, you got two. So he might lose, but I might still win because he's got two games on the wire. So there's all these like crazy gambles that are going on all the time, 24 hours a day.

• 43:53Speaker 04

  So how did you not get sucked into that? Cause you were very into, I mean, you're like quite, not obsessive guy, but like, when you did, uh, mixed martial arts, you're all in. When you do comedy, you're all in. Like, you're all into things. And yet somehow gambling didn't capture you.

• 44:09Joe Rogan?

  Cause I saw what it was. I saw, this is a, this, this is a dopamine roller coaster. And you're gonna be here if I come back 30 years from now. And you won't have moved. You're gonna be doing the same goddamn thing. And there was this guy, my friend Tommy, I have a really good friend, who has been my friend for 34 years. And, um, I met Tommy when he was like 19 years old. I was in my twenties. And when I met Tommy, he was the best pool player in Connecticut. It's like legitimate world-class potential pool player. Like, big-time gambler. He'd gamble for thousands and thousands of dollars. I'd see him all the time. And he was one of the best players, like, in the Northeast, which is one of the strongest pool

• 44:53Joe Rogan?

  areas in the country at a young age. He was playing this guy named Neptune Joe Frady. Neptune Joe Frady was-

• 45:00Speaker 04

  It's a great name, isn't it?

• 45:01Joe Rogan?

  Bro, Neptune Joe Frady never stopped smoking cigarettes. And he would, when he was holding his cue, he'd put the cigarette in between the fingers of his cue like this. So while he's playing.

• 45:13Speaker 04

  You know that was the thing with Minnesota Fats in The Hustler?

• 45:16Joe Rogan?

  Did he do that?

• 45:17Speaker 04

  He smoked the cigarette in that, in that, weirdly in that, yeah.

• 45:20Joe Rogan?

  And he, but did he keep it in his hand while he was shooting? I think he laid it on the table.

• 45:25Speaker 04

  Oh, no, he maybe laid it on there, but he sm- I remember he smoked the cigarette through that. I always remember kind of Minnesota Fats, cause he's, he was a comic. I only ever knew him from that movie.

• 45:32Joe Rogan?

  Jackie Leeson, you mean?

• 45:33Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 45:33Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 45:34Speaker 04

  Jackie Leeson. But I never, I never knew his comedy. I'd, I'd never seen him in anything else. I'd just seen him in that. And then I went, oh, that guy was a, cause I didn't have any of the reference to the thing, but just like that movie.

• 45:44Joe Rogan?

  So this guy Neptune Joe Frady was one of the best players in the world. And, uh, one of the best players in, in the East Coast for sure. And, uh, Tommy was playing this guy and they were grinding it out and he couldn't be, and this guy didn't have $10 to his name. He's like, I can barely beat this guy. And this guy's completely broke. And he's one of the best pool players in the world. And like, this is where it leads you. It leads you to this, where it just, you're not going anywhere. You're stuck.

• 46:11Speaker 04

  Right. But how-

• 46:12Joe Rogan?

  You're stuck doing this thing that doesn't pay any money.

• 46:14Speaker 04

  How lucky did we get, right? My whole thing is like gratitude, right? So when I got into comedy in the UK around 2000, right? It was, it was field hockey. It was, it was, it was darts. It was lacrosse. It was a minority sport. And now it's Premiership football, right? And how lucky did I get to ride that wave in that time? I was just interested in this thing that wasn't particularly popular at the time. And it just became something huge, but like people, you play arenas now. It's crazy. And with pool, pool could have become the thing, but you know, it didn't. You, you backed the right horse. You got so lucky. Like, MMA didn't even exist when you were into it. Didn't exist. Like, martial arts was a thing, but MMA hadn't even really been formed.

• 46:58Speaker 04

  It's the luck of being there.

• 47:00Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah, I'm super lucky. Well, then in podcasting.

• 47:03Speaker 04

  Well, podcasting, like the idea of just going, I'm just gonna do my own thing.

• 47:06Joe Rogan?

  And the thing that we were doing it when no one was watching. So we were doing it, it would get like a thousand viewers, 2,000 viewers.

• 47:12Speaker 04

  And now you're getting 4,000.

• 47:14Joe Rogan?

  Crazy. Things move up.

• 47:16Speaker 04

  But the idea of like, that, have you ever considered that?

• 47:18Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Oh, I think about it all the time.

• 47:20Speaker 04

  I, I do have a practice. I, I just, I'm constantly like, I think, uh, that thing, gratitude is the mother of all virtues. Like, you're constantly reminding yourself like, of like, we, we live now, we do this, we get to do this. Like, finding the thing that you're, you could be excited about. You spoke to Chris Williamson about this recently. He's got this really lovely take on discipline, motivation and obsession. Like, the idea, like, discipline is you, you can force yourself to do the thing. And that, that'll get you two weeks into January doing sit-ups and no further. And then there's motivation. I wanna do this thing. I wanna do it. And then there's obsession. I can't not do this thing. And we're very lucky in life that we found obsessions. Things that it doesn't, you know, we're just like,

• 48:03Speaker 04

  I would do, if there's no money and it doesn't matter, I'm just, I'm into it.

• 48:06Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 48:07Speaker 04

  But the, the issue with pool, your story about pool there, is that it was all about money. It wasn't about the joy of the game, the beauty of that game. Like, playing that well is-

• 48:18Joe Rogan?

  There's money in tournaments now, a lot more money than there was back when I was playing eight hours a day. Um, so there's guys at the top of the heap that can make a very good living playing pool, but only a few. Only a handful, maybe 10. 10 guys, maybe 20 worldwide that are making, well, not worldwide, cause China's doing some crazy things. China is, uh, paying like half a million dollars for the winners of tournaments now. They're, they're putting on these, uh, different pool tournaments in China. They actually have a different table though. And it's kind of, uh, it's really complicated. And when players try to switch over, it's a real problem. They, it's called-

• 48:56Speaker 04

  What's the difference in the table? Just the different sides?

• 48:58Joe Rogan?

  Their corner pockets and their side pockets are curved like a snooker tables.

• 49:03Speaker 04

  Right.

• 49:03Joe Rogan?

  So, um, the thing about pool is, it's all about your, it's, it's, you know, it looks like a ball goes into the hole, you're hitting the ball with a stick. But what it really is, is geometry. And you are breaking the table down into sections where you want a ball to be. And how you're gonna move and what angle you have to approach this ball on. So that as you knock it in, you're going this way to get to the other. As soon as you change any of the dimensions of the table, all the geometry changes. And one of the things that changes is the shape of the pockets. So the shape of the pockets don't accept a ball down the rail. So, so like, so if there's a ball down the, if there's a hole right here and there's a ball right here.

• 49:47Speaker 04

  Right.

• 49:47Joe Rogan?

  I have to like, really gently roll that ball in. I can't fire it in. But in a pool table, I can fire it in with follow and move that ball around the table and get to my next shot. With a Chinese table, I can't do that. It requires the most insane pinpoint accuracy. It's a tiny little pocket with a curved edge on each side. But those guys are paying a half a million dollars for a more boring game, unfortunately. Cause it's just like everybody misses all the time. People miss ball in hand. It's like, it's a really brutal game.

• 50:21Speaker 04

  Right. Okay. Yeah, weird.

• 50:23Joe Rogan?

  It's weird because they don't run out as much. So like, what's exciting about pool is someone breaks, they have a shot on the one ball and they run the rack. And then everyone's like, ah. Or there's a battle back and forth between two guys and they're playing safeties. But when you have a, a pocket where, a, a table where it's like 30% harder to make a ball, it get, like, that's what it looks like. See how it's curved like that?

• 50:44Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah, okay.

• 50:45Joe Rogan?

  So could you show a larger image of the table? The problem is, just you could see it from, yeah, that second picture that you just had, that's it. Okay, so that's what they look like. They look like, roll in there. It looks like a snooker table in terms of the way it's curved on the corners. Now, get, make that a little larger, please? So if I'm shooting a ball, like, say, in that upper left-hand corner, dude, my margin of error is like this on each side, like, like millimeters on each side. So it just makes for a brutal, pokey, fucking scared-ass game. Nobody's gonna break, no one's gonna nice, no one's gonna smooth-stroke any balls and get out. It's just too hard. That's a regular pool table.

• 51:29Joe Rogan?

  See, and on a regular pool table, you see everything has these, these angles where as you're going, like,

• 51:37Speaker 04

  I'm trying to find.

• 51:38Joe Rogan?

  Just show me a regular pool table.

• 51:39Speaker 04

  I don't know what the, I don't.

• 51:40Joe Rogan?

  That's regular pool table, right there. The reason why you can tell is, if you see the corner pockets, this is a diamond, they're the best tables. If you see the corner pocket, see how there's this black piece of leather? And that angle, yeah, right where to the left of Jamie's cursor, that angle's straight. On a Chinese table, that's rounded. And so you can't fire a ball in there, it's not gonna go in. And I might, even by fireball in, I mean, hit it with a firm stroke.

• 52:07Speaker 04

  Right.

• 52:07Joe Rogan?

  It changes the game. But they're paying half a million dollars. So people are going to China to play in these tournaments now, because they're gigantic, because China's really into billiards. Like, really, really into billiards. And some of the best players in the world are coming out of there, particularly out of Taiwan, out of Chinese Taipei. The best players on earth come from there. They're insanely good. They have these schools, they practice eight hours a day, and they have like regiments, oh yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm an addict.

• 52:35Speaker 04

  So, but all of those things, right, like, so.

• 52:38Joe Rogan?

  Martial arts, comedy.

• 52:40Speaker 04

  Martial arts, you still, I mean, you train, but you.

• 52:42Joe Rogan?

  Well, I can't, obviously, I'm too old to compete.

• 52:44Speaker 04

  They should have a seniors.

• 52:46Joe Rogan?

  That would be fun. That's a good way to get hurt forever.

• 52:48Speaker 04

  Yeah, I know, I think the seniors one has to be like the, it has to be to the death, I think.

• 52:53Joe Rogan?

  But I stopped competing for the same reason why I never really got into gambling and pool, because I realized where it's going. There was no money in fighting when I was a kid. I got offered $500 to go professional. When I was an amateur kickboxer, I got offered $500. And I thought about that, for $500, I'm gonna train for two months and maybe go out there and get my brains punched in. And then, for sure, get brain damage, because I was already suspecting that I was getting it, for sure.

• 53:21Speaker 04

  You got exactly the right amount.

• 53:22Joe Rogan?

  That's what I say.

• 53:23Speaker 04

  The sweet spot.

• 53:24Joe Rogan?

  The sweet spot. Yeah, we have enough, don't, don't give a fuck, just a little chaos going on in there, but not to the point where I can't articulate my thoughts.

• 53:33Speaker 04

  It's interesting, because you had that thing of like the next thing that you could do, the jumping off point. So the discipline of martial arts, the pool, you could kind of see where that's going, and then comedy came along, kind of at the right time to kind of, because comedy feels like it's, it, it's such an interesting thing to get in. I want more people to kind of get into comedy. I think that's the, like, you know that idea of like, the opposite of being a spectator is not being a professional. The opposite of being a spectator is being a participant.

• 53:59Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 54:00Speaker 04

  And I think comedy is such a wonderful thing to kind of, because you, you're, you're writing down and ordering your thoughts, right? And you sort of think about what you, what you really think about something, like, what could you say that no one else could say? And then you're learning how to communicate that with other people. It's such a transferable skill. Like, we should be teaching it in schools. There should be like, the drama class should have a comedy element.

• 54:23Joe Rogan?

  A hundred percent.

• 54:24Speaker 04

  It's, it's such a useful skill in life to be able to, just giving something your attention, I'm gonna think about this thing, I'm gonna think of a funny angle. Well, that gives you a bit of perspective on life, you're kind of stepping back and seeing it for what it is, and kind of looking at it from different angles, trying to find something funny in this. It's like a great sort of way to improve your disposition, just to try and see something funny even in the terrible.

• 54:45Joe Rogan?

  This episode is brought to you by Call of Duty. Modern Warfare 4 is coming, and they're going all in on this one, the kind of missions that make you go, dude, did they really just do that? Set during a full-scale North Korean invasion of South Korea, expect a real boots-on-the-ground experience as young South Korean recruits fighting to protect their homeland and North Korean forces, hunting traitors, interrogating civilians, and more. Modern Warfare 4 is available now. Order digitally or pick up your physical disc at your local store. Visit callofduty.com for more. Rated M for mature. Probably the most popular art form that's not documented and studied

• 55:29Joe Rogan?

  in, in terms of like having a structure to having, to learn how to use it.

• 55:33Speaker 04

  Well, that's why I wrote the, I wrote this book about, I wrote this book on jokes, um, with two friends. You know, this is, like, I wrote this thing with Amanda Baker and Abby Grant, this book on jokes, which is like, so it's in thirds, so it's like the taxonomy of jokes, like the descriptors of all the different joke types. Not the function of the joke, but the type of the joke.

• 55:53Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 55:53Speaker 04

  Because people talk about observational comedy, that's like saying, songs about girls is a genre. No, it's like, what, how, how's this, what, is this pullback reveal, is it a pun? What kind of wordplay is this, how's it work? And then how to put together routines, and then how to perform. Because I think comedy can be taught. I don't think it's an immutable characteristic. I don't think it's something that, that you're born with. I think you could have like, you could be drawn to it, and then the idea of having some kind of structure. Because when you think about, like, people often say comedy can't be taught. Jerry Seinfeld said, you can't teach comedy. I think he's one of the greats. And I think Doug Stanhope said, comedy courses are raging scams. They're two of my favorites, right? But they both had teachers, they were both taught comedy. But they had a home club, and they had a mentor.

• 56:38Speaker 04

  And, you know, guys that we know started on the door, and they ended up the headliner.

• 56:42Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 56:42Speaker 04

  Right, so you.

• 56:43Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 56:44Speaker 04

  Tony Hitchliffe.

• 56:44Joe Rogan?

  Perfect example.

• 56:45Speaker 04

  Used to park cars, and, and.

• 56:48Joe Rogan?

  Now sells out Madison Square Garden.

• 56:50Speaker 04

  And you go, and that, that's a dojo.

• 56:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 56:52Speaker 04

  But not everyone has access to that dojo, you know, it's the Comedy Cellar, it's the Comedy Store, it's the mothership. It's like these clubs, but there aren't enough of those clubs. So you want to have a book that writes it down and kind of makes it a bit of book learning as well.

• 57:06Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 57:07Speaker 04

  Because you go, well, music isn't made any less wonderful by having a formal structure. So the, like, part of the inspiration to write the book, so it's Abby Grant and Amanda Baker, and my, and they're really good friends of mine, and.

• 57:19Joe Rogan?

  Are these the same people that you had work with, people here?

• 57:21Speaker 04

  That, that was the test, for, they came to the mothership and taught the course for six weeks.

• 57:26Joe Rogan?

  Amazing.

• 57:27Speaker 04

  To young comics, and.

• 57:28Joe Rogan?

  Thank you for that, by the way.

• 57:29Speaker 04

  I think it's grown corn. I, I think those guys are all doing fantastically. But the idea of kind of going, okay, we need to test this, because I don't want to be a grifter. I never want to sell something, I don't want to sell a book that doesn't work. So the idea of going, well, you've got this structure that people can kind of get into and go, okay, well, I know what the work is now. I know what it is without, like, we had to have immersive learning, we just had to be surrounded by other funny people that were trying to do this crazy thing. But if you, you can formalize it, you know the story of, Amanda told me this story, right, and it blew my head off, right, so about Gregorian chants. You heard of Gregorian chants?

• 58:03Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 58:03Speaker 04

  Okay, I'll tell you why you've heard of Gregorian chants. Because Pope Gregory was the Pope, and he's traveling around, and he says, everyone's singing the songs differently in, around, outside of the Vatican, they're all singing them differently in the other churches. I don't like it, I want them to be the same. Write it down. And this guy, and this guy went, no, no, you can't write down music. If music doesn't live within a human soul, then it, then it, it's ethereal, it, you can't write down music, it can't be done. And Pope Gregory basically goes, look, I'm the fucking Pope, write it down. And so it takes them a couple of hundred years, but musical notation comes from that. That's where musical notation comes from. Then, 300 years later, you have Bach.

• 58:48Speaker 04

  But you couldn't have had Bach without the musical notation.

• 58:51Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 58:52Speaker 04

  You needed it to be a little bit formalized so that people could express themselves through it. They, they had the system then to, and it doesn't make people the same, it doesn't make, it doesn't make for more rigid music. It means that you can do more with it.

• 59:05Joe Rogan?

  Where you, you understand what you're working with.

• 59:07Speaker 04

  Yeah, you have an idea of kind of what you're doing, that like, it's not formulaic. Well, you've got to know the rules before you can break the rules.

• 59:14Joe Rogan?

  I think what Doug's getting at with comedy courses, unfortunately, is true. Um, a lot of them are taught by people that are failed stand-ups. And uh, never really made a career and now that's a way to make money. Versus like Ari Shafir was doing a thing for a while. Where whenever we would go into a town, like say if we would be in Phoenix. He would hold a free seminar for the local comedians on Sunday. So on Sunday, he would sit with them. And he would break down how to get a manager, how to get an agent, how to get into clubs. And how to work in your act and how to go over your act.

• 59:50Speaker 04

  A great thing to do. I mean, he's in London now. He's a great guy.

• 59:54Joe Rogan?

  I discourage that activity. I told him, stay in America. So I'm like. But um, he has to be a wanderer. He's a weirdo. Um, but point is, he had this great service that he was giving to comics when he'd go to these towns and. He would, they would ask him about material. How do you write? How do you do this? How do you do that? And he would sit with them for like three hours for free.

• 1:00:11Speaker 04

  Well, I think, I mean, for me, it's the writing thing is the reason to write the book. They're trying to throw the, the, the, the drawbridge down, trying to help people up and go. Well, how do you, how do you actually do this? Cause there's a bit too much magical thinking in our business of like, oh, that guy's a genius. Cause you don't get to see the working. You don't get to see the guys in the gym. Testing out stuff, you know, if you do, if I write a hundred jokes and five of them work. No one, no one ever says at the end of my show, well, what about the other ninety-five jokes? What about the other ones? They go, no, it's just, obviously the, it's like that thing of I don't write the show. The audience decide. That one works, that one doesn't, that one works, that one doesn't. And then you're generating this thing. You're kind of building up slowly.

• 1:00:52Joe Rogan?

  Uh, but what I was gonna get at is I think what Stan Hope is not correct about is that even if you're doing. A comedy course for someone who sucks at comedy, there's, they've at least done comedy. To the point where they understand what it's like to get on stage and tell jokes and maybe some of them did fairly well. But at least you start doing it. Okay. So one of the things about these comedy classes is. They all have like a graduation day where they do their act, right? That alone is a step.

• 1:01:21Speaker 04

  But also that thing of like, there go, there's a, there's a fancy term for it, I think, um, capitalist ontology. That we do, everything we look at has to be looked at through money, right? Can you make money doing this or not make? How do I, like, people ask me, how do, like, get asked about being, you know, young people that wanna be musicians or wanna be comedians. So how do I do this? How do I make money doing this? You go, no, no, just do it. Just do, don't worry about making money. If you get good, then, then maybe, but the ten thousand hours will apply. You will have to work so hard at this to get good. But even if you just do it as a hobby. It's gonna increase your enjoyment of this thing for the rest of your life. Like even if, like, I meet people that have done, oh, I did a little bit of comedy. I did like, you know, ten gigs back in the nineties.

• 1:02:03Speaker 04

  And there was a show and they're so into comedy. Cause they have an idea of what it is. The funniest thing you've seen the last ten years, I guarantee you. Is something you saw on your phone, like a meme that someone made and you don't know who made it. And I do. It's a guy in Minnesota working in a call center. And he just thought of a funny thing and he made it and he put it out there. And I want that guy in our industry. I want him to at least have a gut, have a shot.

• 1:02:28Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:02:29Speaker 04

  Have, have a way of doing, like, the thing I love about Kill Tony. I mean, Tony has inadvertently helped more people, made more careers, right?

• 1:02:38Joe Rogan?

  Than anyone. Since Johnny Carson.

• 1:02:40Speaker 04

  It's phenomenal, right? And he's bringing up these guys and like Ari Matti is a legit, I was in um, Helsinki two weeks ago doing shows. And I'm happy to mention on stage, someone asked me about Ari Matti. Oh yeah, I saw Ari last week. Like, like, he was like, oh, who cares about you? You know Ari Matti. It's such a big deal. Cause obviously talent is across the water. He's like.

• 1:02:59Joe Rogan?

  He's a force of nature.

• 1:03:00Speaker 04

  But he's wonderful, right? And you go, uh, uh, it, like, the idea of going, more people should be in this. The thing about Kill Tony as well, it's a minute. A minute's not that long. I know a lot of people that've got, and there's no, that could put together a minute, but. There's no greatest in comedy. There's no such thing as the greatest of all time in comedy. Because it's about being yourself, being authentic. It's the opposite of what artificial intelligence is, right? It's, it's, it's a right brain thing. It's like people are very impressed by AI.

• 1:03:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:30Speaker 04

  Because we've got so used to other people. If AI was all there was, and you were the only person and other people came along. You'd be so blown away by other people. Like, what could people say that's like, it's their, their unique viewpoint on something? You know, they, they, you know, the comics kind of, they kind of, even if you're a one liner guy like me, comics kind of um, leak. You can kind of tell who someone is on stage.

• 1:03:52Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:03:53Speaker 04

  It's, it's beautiful. It's like, it's friendship at scale.

• 1:03:56Joe Rogan?

  Yes. Podcasts are similar to that too. Maybe even more so. Because you're having these long, long conversations about a variety of different things. But I think there's a lot of untapped talent out there that could be comics and instead will live these boring lives. Um, when they're, they've got this wasted mind. One of the funniest people I ever met was a guy I worked for. I worked for a private investigator for a while.

• 1:04:19Speaker 04

  You, you talked about this, yeah.

• 1:04:20Joe Rogan?

  One of the funniest people I've ever met in my life. Far funnier than me, especially at the time. I was only twenty-one. And he was a former alcoholic who needed someone to drive his car. So he put an ad for a private investigator's assistant. Really what it was is someone with a valid driver's license.

• 1:04:37Speaker 04

  Do you know what this sounds like? This sounds like the start of a great kind of Rockford Files start type show.

• 1:04:43Joe Rogan?

  Oh, it was. It really was. I mean, it was really fun. I would, I was dating this girl at the time and I'd come over to her place after I was done working, just crying, laughing. And I was saying, I, I'll never be as funny as this guy. This guy's so funny. And I would tell her the crazy shit we had to do. Cause we were catching people with like insurance fraud and one guy, one guy, he, there's, he had this beautiful girlfriend and he was this me, like. Miesley little guy and uh, he had this beautiful girlfriend and she was getting gorilla fucked by this bodybuilder guy. And this dude knew about it. So he wanted him to take pictures and catch him in the act. And uh, after he got the photos, he did all, everything he asked him to do. Uh, the guy wanted him to still take more pictures. They're like, hey.

• 1:05:28Joe Rogan?

  The fuck is, what are you doing here?

• 1:05:32Speaker 04

  You've not got the right angles.

• 1:05:34Joe Rogan?

  Your cuck porn dealer. Like, you gotta fucking, you, my job's done. Here's pictures of this giant muscular man fucking your girlfriend.

• 1:05:43Speaker 04

  This is episode one. This is the show. It's a great idea for a show.

• 1:05:47Joe Rogan?

  So fun. But the idea of like, such a fun guy.

• 1:05:50Speaker 04

  You meet these guys that are so funny in life and you want them to have an outlet, the outlet that we have. And you go, and there's kind of, there's more clubs. So it's like Kill Tony's a thing, right? That's a thing people can do. There's your club, there's the seller, there's the store, there's, there's other places that are doing this. Around, around America, but you want kind of more of it in the world. You want more people to step this up.

• 1:06:09Joe Rogan?

  The most important thing is community, right? And one of the things we really foster at the mothership is a community. Everybody knows that whether you're a door guy or whether you're someone who's like doing opening spots. Or whether you're someone who's headlining, we're all doing the same thing. We're all the same thing. It's just, we're on different stages of this journey. You're in your beginning stage. I'm in my thirty-plus year stage, but I'll help you. And you'll help other people too. We'll help each other. And it's important to know that we do not exist in a vacuum. And comedy is one of the only art forms that you cannot create in a vacuum. You need not just the audience, you need other comics. You're never gonna find the best comic in the world.

• 1:06:49Joe Rogan?

  In some fucking small town where no one knows about him and some tiny little bar that he does comedy at. That's never gonna happen.

• 1:06:56Speaker 04

  No, it's really interesting.

• 1:06:56Joe Rogan?

  Always, you have to be either on the road with great comics that you travel with. Or you have to be in a club in your local town where you practice with great comics. You see each other, we feed off of each other, we inspire each other, we're always having fun and talk, it's, there's a community. It's very important. And we fostered that at the Comedy Store and now we're fostering it in Austin. It's a really important part of it. It's the fun.

• 1:07:23Speaker 04

  I often think about that thing of like dispersed identity is very, like, people think they're sort of sealed, hermetically sealed. And it's them and they're an individual. And the more time you spend online, the more that illusion becomes real. You're just kind of locked off from the world. And actually that connection of like who you are with other people. Like, why come out, why go out to a comedy show? Why go and see, why go to another ship? Why come and see one of my shows? Why come and see me on tour? Well, it's like, there's an illusion that I'm the only one performing because I'm on stage. But actually being in an audience is performative. Like, there's something about, so it's obvious.

• 1:07:55Joe Rogan?

  You're playing a role. You're sitting. You're sitting still and you're just quiet and laughing.

• 1:08:01Speaker 04

  Well, but, but that thing about going in my crowd, I mean, I have a lot of audience interaction. So there's a lot of people like asking weird and wonderful questions and, and, and kind of getting involved. And sometimes it's funny and sometimes it's heartbreaking. And it's like, all human life is here. It can be anything. And it's, it's really interesting to kind of hold that space for people because you go, people are desperate to feel part of something. To, to kind of feel alive and feel, because you laugh with other people. You don't really laugh on your own. You don't laugh looking at stuff on your phone.

• 1:08:29Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:08:30Speaker 04

  You laugh when it's like, when it's, when you're in the room with other people. It's a signal. It's a social thing.

• 1:08:34Joe Rogan?

  Also, all the time that you're looking at a screen is pulling you away from the time you're with people. So if like. If human interaction was a recommended daily allowance of a vitamin, you know, like you have a thousand milligrams of vitamin C every day. It's really good to stay healthy. If human interaction was like that, you would look at the invention of people working from home, staring at screens all day, being on your phone all the time, being on your phone even when you're around other people. Your actual time interacting with people radically dropped off. And if that's a physical requirement to be a happy, healthy person, which I think it is. And I think it's built into us. I think one of the reasons why people get so sad when they're alone is because

• 1:09:18Joe Rogan?

  in the olden days, if they kicked you out of the tribe, you're gonna die. Okay, if you're not around other people all the time, you're not around the gatherers and you didn't succeed hunting, or you don't have the right amount of spears to hold off the invaders, you're gonna fucking get kicked out and you're gonna be on your own and you're gonna die.

• 1:09:38Speaker 04

  Well, here's the take, right? So the idea of going, the human beings, right? Drop one human in the jungle, you fed the animals. Drop ten humans in the jungle, you've got the apex predator, right? Our superpower is cooperation.

• 1:09:53Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:09:54Speaker 04

  And what's upstream of communication? Play. We learn to communicate through play.

• 1:10:00Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:10:00Speaker 04

  Anything anyone cares about, I don't care who you are, talk to anyone, they care about play. Now, it could be stand-up comedy where we're playing on stage, playing a theater, playing a show. Or it could be sports, right, where you're playing. Could be grappling, where you're playing with someone, but you've got very strict rules. A relationship is play. Sports, play. Everything is, everything people are interested in is play. We don't, we don't stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing. The great, the great thing about our lives is we play all the time. I think we need more of that in our world. We need more play, more like people get so serious.

• 1:10:34Joe Rogan?

  I 100% agree. You know, one of the great ways to learn martial arts is to be playful while you're learning it. So it's one of the tenants of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu. They say, keep it playful. They, they emphasize keeping training playful. Because when it's not playful, when it's life or death, which it kind of is, but when it's life or death and you're grappling with someone, you get tense. And when you get tense, you don't take chances. And when you don't take chances, you don't open up your game, so you don't learn. So you don't learn new ways to do things. You just have to get comfortable with the idea of potentially losing and knowing that if you lose, you're gonna have another chance to go again in just a few seconds. And then you're gonna go again with another person in just a few minutes. So just relax, you're gonna lose, it's okay. And you're gonna win too. And someone's gonna beat you and you're gonna beat other people.

• 1:11:19Joe Rogan?

  But the only way to get good at this is to be playful with it and accept the fact that's gonna happen and just flow and learn. And you're learning while you're playing because it's fun instead of being this horrific life and death experience that after it's over, you barely remember what happened.

• 1:11:35Speaker 04

  But isn't that the thing with like, even, even stuff like, like being a dad, right? So the, the rough and tumble kind of play.

• 1:11:42Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 1:11:42Speaker 04

  Tickling and wrestling.

• 1:11:44Joe Rogan?

  Dogs do it with each other, they do it, puppies do it.

• 1:11:45Speaker 04

  But I think like, video games are no substitute for that. Like it's not, that's not the same kind of play. You need that thing of like, learning where you are, learning what boundaries are. Like, when you play a game with someone else as well, like they've got to win some of the time. Like it's that thing, if I get heckled, like, yeah, you can put the heckler down or join in and play. And sometimes they win, it's fine, who cares?

• 1:12:06Joe Rogan?

  Well, sometimes hecklers have banger lines. Every now and then they got a banger that I gotta go, ah!

• 1:12:12Speaker 04

  Well, that, isn't that the thing though, where sometimes someone heckles and it's like, it could be a drunk guy trying to interrupt the show, that's a separate thing. But my crowd, like they, they join in, they add value every single night.

• 1:12:23Joe Rogan?

  Well, you do that fun thing where you allow them to ask questions and you talk to them.

• 1:12:27Speaker 04

  But that's very, I mean, it's like, they're so well behaved because you kind of go, right, get out there, I'll do 20 minutes of just like bang, bang, bang, like three, four big laughs a minute. And try and, you know, try and get, get them into, I suppose the thing about, the last bit of the book, that On Jokes book is about rhythm. And about how comedy has a natural rhythm. It's about 92 beats a minute, it's like a comfortable walking pace. Like, when you walk with someone, you fall into rhythm with them, right? And so, so there's a key word every two and a half seconds, there's like a, and you, you want them to fall into rhythm. And then you want, give them 20 minutes so that they just feel totally calm, like, oh, we know exactly why we've come out to the show, having a great time. Oh, now it's our go, we get to join in, we get to play now.

• 1:13:10Speaker 04

  And then you get back into it kind of seamlessly. And like you ebb and flow between those two. So you're putting together this thing where it feels like we all did this. We all had this experience.

• 1:13:20Joe Rogan?

  Right, we're all having fun together, yeah. No, that's one of the more fun things about the Bottom of the Barrel show at the mothership.

• 1:13:26Speaker 04

  Oh yeah, that's fun.

• 1:13:27Joe Rogan?

  That's the best show, it's so silly. Sometimes it's terrible, like sometimes you got nothing, there's nothing in there. And sometimes you get gems, like I have three or four bits in my act right now that came out of premises that I pulled out of the barrel and had an idea just popped into my mind.

• 1:13:42Speaker 04

  When you find that weird thing of like going, that state that you're in on stage, you would never have thought of that sitting at your desk.

• 1:13:48Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:13:48Speaker 04

  There's something about actually being up there on the stage in front of other people. And there's something amazing about, I don't know what, what the number is, maybe it's 50, maybe it's 30, people in front of you, listening to you.

• 1:13:58Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:13:58Speaker 04

  That feels so natural, like that's a crowd, I'm speaking to a crowd. And there's, I could try a joke in front of 50 people at the club and it will work in front of 15,000 people in an arena. It's like, okay, that's gonna, that's gonna work, an audience like that.

• 1:14:14Joe Rogan?

  There's also a thing about those little crowds, like the, the little boy room in the mothership that's only seats 110 people. When you're in a little crowd like that, there's no room for shenanigans. Or what Tom, Tom Segura likes to call dance moves. Like there's, there's bits where it's like, is it really funny? Or is there a bunch of dance moves in the bit that makes people laugh on cue?

• 1:14:36Speaker 04

  Here's my thing about rhythm, okay? Which I think is kind of interesting and slightly heartbreaking for us, okay? So I would say, pound for pound, best joke writer of the last 30 years was Mitch Hedberg, right?

• 1:14:47Joe Rogan?

  Pretty, like pretty great fucking jokes.

• 1:14:50Speaker 04

  Pretty great jokes, right? You see them written down, you go, this guy's, he's gotta be, but his rhythm, uh, his, his pacing was inconsistent, which is worse than being fast or slow. It was just, so half the time he would kill and half the time he would die. And why? And a hack, a hack comic doing hacky shit with great fucking rhythm would, would beat him 99% of the time. That's, that's crazy, it's heartbreaking to me that no one took him to the side and went, no, no, you just gotta, like you've got this lovely cadence to your speech, but it's, you've got to keep the same rhythm for it to work every time. I mean, he was a fabulous.

• 1:15:28Joe Rogan?

  He was a fabulous comic, but he was also a real heroin addict. A real bad one, to the point where he got gangrene in one of the shots.

• 1:15:36Speaker 04

  Lost a leg, I think, yeah.

• 1:15:37Joe Rogan?

  No, he didn't lose a leg, but he almost died. It was as well.

• 1:15:40Speaker 04

  Oh, he died?

• 1:15:41Joe Rogan?

  I mean, at the time, uh, he almost died before that. He almost died when Stan Hope and I were doing the Man Show in like 2003. And then he wound up dying after that, but.

• 1:15:51Speaker 04

  I know his folks up.

• 1:15:52Joe Rogan?

  That was part of the issue.

• 1:15:53Speaker 04

  You know, JFL flew him up, flew his folks up?

• 1:15:55Joe Rogan?

  Oh, did they?

• 1:15:56Speaker 04

  It was such a sweet thing, it's like one of the nicest things I've ever seen at a festival.

• 1:16:00Joe Rogan?

  He, um, he had amazing joke writing and he was very prolific, but he was also doing heroin all the time. And it was part of the vibe on stage. And it was part of the thing where it could go south, it could really get away from you. You know, like if you've got a guy who's relying on substances, especially heavy stuff, you know, like, uh,

• 1:16:22Speaker 04

  Who's the other, Greg Giraldo had, you know, the, uh, those kind of demons.

• 1:16:28Joe Rogan?

  He did, but he cleaned up for a long time and then fell off. And that's when someone gave him a pill and he died.

• 1:16:36Joe Rogan?

  But that, that was part of the problem with Mitch, I think, was just that he, you know, they, nobody could get him to quit too, he was like, I'm never gonna quit. He, he was not interested in quitting. It was like, it's like, uh-uh, like now I'm doing heroin.

• 1:16:50Speaker 04

  It really is a heartbreaker, isn't it, when you've got?

• 1:16:52Joe Rogan?

  It's a heartbreaker. But that was like real heroin, like old school, injectable, Stevie Ray Vaughan style. This is not like the pussy stuff these kids are doing today where they're snorting.

• 1:17:02Speaker 04

  Sure, sure.

• 1:17:03Joe Rogan?

  Fuck off.

• 1:17:04Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:17:04Joe Rogan?

  Learn how to tie off a vein, pussy, you know?

• 1:17:09Speaker 04

  Yes, it's this.

• 1:17:10Joe Rogan?

  Take that fucking needle and shoot that, cook it on a spoon like a real man and then shoot it right into your veins, pussy.

• 1:17:16Speaker 04

  It's, it's very, it's very sad when you lose someone like that because you kind of go, I, I wonder what the next special would have been, I wonder what the next door would have been. The next, like what he would have made of this.

• 1:17:26Joe Rogan?

  But it's like we were talking about earlier with Janis Joplin and Hendrix and people in the 27-year-old club. They were all doing drugs, like heavy duty drugs. And they had all reached this state of excellence in this very bizarre thing that they do.

• 1:17:43Speaker 04

  But I think, I think that level of sensitivity that they had, you know, being a performer, being drawn to that. And then having to, it's like, uh, what's the analogy? A, um, a lobster without its shell. It's the, it's, they just were so exposed to the world and they need to medicate against that. But the idea of going, it's, and for me, it's like the idea of going, doing any of that gets in the way. I remember like going, I didn't drink for the first, I think, 12 years of doing comedy? Just because, like I was, you know, drank at college and, you know, I didn't have kind of a problem or certainly didn't think I have a problem. But when I, when I found comedy in my mid twenties, I went, oh, I'm all in. I don't want this, I don't want to have.

• 1:18:22Joe Rogan?

  Something derails you.

• 1:18:23Speaker 04

  You know that thing of like, alcohol is borrowing happiness from tomorrow?

• 1:18:28Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:28Speaker 04

  So you can have, you can have a drink, but if you have like five drinks, like tomorrow's gonna be slightly fucked up. So that thing of like, what could I do today that I would be super happy I did tomorrow? Like giving a gift to your future self. Like that thing of, you'll look back on your life and whether it's with regret or nostalgia depends what you do today. Like that's too big to think about on, on your deathbed. But I could think about tomorrow. Like that chunking it down and going, right, well, if I write some jokes today and I test them tonight, I'll be so pleased I did that tomorrow. And if I eat right, I'll be, I'll feel better tomorrow. So just that, that like daily thing of like getting it down to a, a small kind of, a unit of time I can think about, I can control.

• 1:19:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, delaying gratification's very important if you want to get anything done.

• 1:19:12Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, it's, it's the, it seems to be, it's also like, well, like in a, in a metaphysical way, God is the future, right? God is an analogy for work. God is, uh, do, do something good now for a better life in the future. So in a sense, work is the same thing, you work now for a better future. What, everyone wants what you got. No one is jealous of what you had to do to get it. The work that you had to do. And it's often that thing of like, the reason people get, um, uh, Sort of imposter syndrome is because they think, oh, I don't know, I didn't do the work. Yeah, you did the work, but you did it six months ago. You did, you spent the time in the gym and then you you get it now.

• 1:19:54Joe Rogan?

  Well, I just think people get imposter syndrome because just the spectacle of becoming an actual famous person is so weird. That very few people can navigate the waters and still be themselves. You feel so fucking weird and then you you hear your name get announced and you hear people cheer and you're like, there's no way this is real. You're like, you don't want to believe it's real. And especially if you're still doing the same thing. So if you're still doing the same thing, you're trying to create something, you're working on it, you work on your act and you're trying to do your best. Like whatever your best is, that's what you're trying to do. And you're just formulating and you're getting ready to go on stage and that's all you've been doing, like the whole time you've been doing comedy. And you have great sets and you have sets that aren't so great, you try to figure out why and you write new shit, you go over the recordings.

• 1:20:39Joe Rogan?

  And then one day they announce your name and fifteen thousand people go ape shit. And you start walking towards the arena and you're like, what the fuck is happening? Like, how is this real? And that's what imposter syndrome is, it doesn't seem like it's real.

• 1:20:54Speaker 04

  It's the it's the body's immune response.

• 1:20:56Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's also this distinction that we have in society about that there's a different thing between a celebrity and a normal human being.

• 1:21:03Speaker 04

  It's because because you don't see the work.

• 1:21:05Joe Rogan?

  Right. It's not just that you don't see the work, they're in this very weird, almost like a royal position. Where they're constantly in the media, they're constantly, no one's paying attention to you, no one's asking Bob, hey Bob, the guy who does HVAC for a living. What's going on with your day? What's happening with your friends? Uh, what's what's up with it? Did you get cancelled for TikTok that you made? Nobody gives a fuck about Bob. And so you're watching these people that are people that everyone pays attention to. And then Bob decides to do stand up comedy. And then Bob goes to an open mic night. And then Bob gets on Kill Tony and he fucking murders and Bob gets a golden ticket. And next thing you know, Bob is opening up for, you know, Ari Matty on the road. And next thing you know, Bob puts out a YouTube special and it gets three million views.

• 1:21:48Joe Rogan?

  And next thing you know, Bob is selling out Massey Hall in Toronto. And he goes on stage and everybody goes fucking nuts and he can't believe it's real and he gets imposter syndrome.

• 1:22:00Speaker 04

  I think this is the natural state of things, okay? Here's my take, right? So we made a huge mistake. We moved from the villages to the cities, right? And everyone in the village would hold the talking stick and they would speak. Everyone did it, right? And everyone used to sing in the choir, right? And everyone used to dance. I'm a terrible dancer, but everyone used to dance, everyone used to sing, everyone used to speak, right? And then we moved to the cities, right? And we built these incredible halls, right? And you go and see Oasis live, right? And you go and you watch um a ballet and the opera and you go and see um, you know, Chappelle on stage and you go.

• 1:22:39Speaker 04

  Oh, you're in awe and you're in the audience, we're so well entertained, but you're not a participant anymore, you're not, you're not doing the thing yourself. So it's that thing of like going, I would rather people went to play five-a-side soccer than went to see a premiership game. I'd rather people did five minutes or a minute in the club at a Kill Tony thing than came to see me live. People, the participation thing is kind of lost and it's the same with the social media. Like you're you're you're watching.

• 1:23:08Joe Rogan?

  Right, other people's lives, yeah.

• 1:23:09Speaker 04

  But you're not, you're not kind of, you're not getting, the I R L thing, like they're getting out and doing the thing.

• 1:23:14Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's stealing from your life too. It's, you're not just, like, if you're doom scrolling, you're not just watching other people's lives. You're taking time from your own life to do the things you love.

• 1:23:27Speaker 04

  Yeah, and and that idea that you go, the the social media, the the idea, the the phone now is the is religion, right? And the church used to ask for one hour a week. The phone is asking for four or five hours a day.

• 1:23:39Joe Rogan?

  And it's not giving you much back.

• 1:23:41Speaker 04

  But and you make your, and if you put something out there, right? If you if you post something, you're making a um, an offering and then you see whether you get likes. And the like is the digital amen.

• 1:23:53Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:23:53Speaker 04

  It's like you're you're waiting for it to kind of to to feedback to give you something. And it it just doesn't, it doesn't have that same in real life, like you, you, you know, it's that thing of like, I'm not puritanical, but, you know. Porn as a substitute for sex, like being, having friends online, being being famous on Instagram is like being rich in Monopoly. Right, you want the real thing, the the I R L.

• 1:24:17Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, for for sure. Um, for sure, I think you're doing a great thing by encouraging people to participate and stuff. And I I absolutely agree with you that if you did a little bit of stand up comedy, tried a little bit of open mic, you'd appreciate the art form more, you'd enjoy it more. I think that's certainly the case with martial arts. One of the reasons why I appreciate martial arts so much is because I trained. I did it for so long and I I know when I see excellent martial artists, when I see something that's truly sensational. I I have a, I have an appreciation for it that very few other people would have if they didn't understand how difficult it is to do that thing.

• 1:24:52Speaker 04

  Right, yeah, I think it's it's easy for us, like, if you if you haven't ever tried something, you look at it and you go.

• 1:24:56Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:24:57Speaker 04

  I don't know anything about that, so I've I've no idea what they're doing.

• 1:24:59Joe Rogan?

  Which is why so many men have this delusional idea that they can fight. They've seen people fight, like, I could do that. And so they'll get drunk and get in fights.

• 1:25:07Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:25:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's a terrible idea. But someone like myself who's been in martial arts my whole life, the last thing I ever want to do is get in a fight, like, I'm out of here, like, I don't want to get in any fights. But when I watch professionals do it, I have an appreciation that a regular person who's never trained in their life, you're never gonna, you're never gonna understand it the way I, or. You're never gonna really know it and there's ways that I don't know it. Like when I see like wrestling, like I'm not a good wrestler. So if I see wrestling, like really high level wrestling, there's a lot of shit I don't understand, I don't know what's going on. I have to refer to Daniel Cormier and he explains it to me during the broadcasts. Because I kind of know the basics of wrestling, I wrestled a little bit in high school, but I don't know it like a a guy who was in the Olympics. Like, Daniel's a world champion.

• 1:25:52Joe Rogan?

  So it's like his level of appreciation for it, like when someone hits a beautiful takedown, he lights up. It's like beautiful inside trip, like he he loves it because he knows how hard it is to do it because he's done it a million times on live human beings.

• 1:26:05Speaker 04

  You go in life, how you get good at something? It's you get unconscious incompetence and then conscious incompetence and then conscious competence and then unconscious competence.

• 1:26:17Joe Rogan?

  We just went over this the other day. We had the the diagram.

• 1:26:20Speaker 04

  It's interesting how you you move up through this thing. So sometimes actually, you, the reason for a community, the reason a community is so important is because, you know, I can sit with Abby and Amanda and write this book and say, this is how jokes are written. But actually what you want is your peer group, that like the guys you came up with. The guys that you work on the door with at the store, the guys that you, like, you need peers because you need someone who's like six months ahead of you.

• 1:26:43Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:26:44Speaker 04

  Not thirty years ahead of you. Because you can't even remember what it was like to be starting off trying to do five, you know, it's a long time ago. I mean, we're still doing the same thing, but.

• 1:26:51Joe Rogan?

  This is the greatest thing about what we have, or what we used to have at the Comedy Store and they have now and what they have at the Cellar in New York City and what we have at the Mothership.

• 1:27:01Speaker 04

  I've been talking to Noam about opening something in London.

• 1:27:04Joe Rogan?

  It's a great idea.

• 1:27:05Speaker 04

  I think it would be, it'd be, you know, incredible.

• 1:27:07Joe Rogan?

  It would be incredible, you know, um, it's, the more the better, you know, we're really fortunate in Austin that we have seven clubs on one street. Within a one block area of the Mothership, there's like seven clubs that have comedy at least a few nights a week. And then we have another big club, Cap City, which is a great club, that's in the Domain, that's just like twenty five minutes away. And then you have all these outside places that have comedy nights now. It's it's like a golden age of comedy in terms of like being able to jump into it and having a bunch of people that have an ethic of helping you get through the maze.

• 1:27:43Joe Rogan?

  When I was starting out in Boston, there wasn't a lot of like, come with me kid, let me show you the ropes and I'll I'll take you, I'll I'll show you what to do and what not to do.

• 1:27:53Speaker 04

  Great scene you came out of though, in terms of like the names that came out of that, but Steven Wright was probably the first.

• 1:27:58Joe Rogan?

  Well, he was the big, did you ever see When Stand Up Stood Out?

• 1:28:01Speaker 04

  Yes, yeah, it's an amazing documentary.

• 1:28:03Joe Rogan?

  Franz Salamita, who I knew from Boston, he was a comic in Boston, very funny guy. He made this documentary and a good example, right? A person who did comedy, who has this insane appreciation of comedy, who really can understand like how unique that moment in time was. It's a fantastic documentary for people who haven't seen it. The best comics that were in that era are not the ones who got out of there. Well, there was like Louis for sure and Patrice and Bill Burr. There's those guys.

• 1:28:32Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, they're pretty heavy.

• 1:28:34Joe Rogan?

  Outstanding.

• 1:28:34Speaker 04

  I got to work with Prozess a little bit before he died.

• 1:28:36Joe Rogan?

  Genius. Listen, they're all, it's all great comedy that went nationwide, but what I'm saying is, there was guys that no one ever saw that were in that town that were better than them. At least at that time they were. The they were some of the best comics I've ever seen in my life. They would murder on a level that I've seen very few people murder to this day. These guys would do thirty minutes of fucking thunder and they would tank headliners. They would bring in, like Billy Crystal had to do a weekend at the the comedy, uh, Nick's Comedy Stop. And they had assassin after assassin, these local murderers like Steve Sweeney. You couldn't follow that guy if your life depended on it.

• 1:29:22Joe Rogan?

  He was so funny. He was this big Irish guy and Don Gavin, his punch, he has these throwaway punchline after throwaway punchline. He was so good.

• 1:29:32Speaker 04

  I just put the the the US tour in and the the Boston, I'm doing the the the Wang.

• 1:29:38Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:29:39Speaker 04

  They'll never build a theater as good as that again.

• 1:29:41Joe Rogan?

  That's a beautiful theater.

• 1:29:42Speaker 04

  That and the Chicago Theater, I think, like, like, because of fire regs now, if you want to put that many people in a room now, the room has to be four times the size. Right. So you go, they'll never build theaters, it's the Palladium in London has the same thing.

• 1:29:53Joe Rogan?

  Theater in Detroit.

• 1:29:54Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 1:29:55Joe Rogan?

  Woo.

• 1:29:55Speaker 04

  Like, it's, you just go, they're just on top of you.

• 1:29:58Joe Rogan?

  On top of you.

• 1:29:59Speaker 04

  It's the perfect space.

• 1:30:00Joe Rogan?

  And you feel the years and years of fucking entertainment in that room, you feel it.

• 1:30:06Speaker 04

  Oh, the the Chicago one, you're in Sinatra's dressing room, it's like, what? What? I mean, that's imposter syndrome.

• 1:30:11Joe Rogan?

  Well, have you done the Garden? When you do the Garden, it's the weirdest feeling in the world.

• 1:30:14Speaker 04

  The Garden, I've done, I did like an event at the Garden, well, I did the the Kill Tony there, but I did the, uh, what was it? There's a, there's, there's an amazing charity for American servicemen and the guy, Bruce Springsteen does it every single year. And they put, it's like, it's always like eight comedians and then Bruce Springsteen.

• 1:30:32Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:30:33Speaker 04

  It's such a weird event, but it's so fantastic. I've done that a couple of times, it was amazing.

• 1:30:37Joe Rogan?

  But point is that building, even when we go there for UFC fights, it feels different. When I do commentary at the Garden, it's always like, wow. This place is alive, man. It's got Muhammad Ali versus Joe Frazier is in this building. You know what I mean? It's like you feel it. You feel the history of that building.

• 1:30:57Speaker 04

  People want to come out and spend time in those spaces.

• 1:30:59Joe Rogan?

  Yes, one hundred percent.

• 1:31:00Speaker 04

  To be in them.

• 1:31:01Joe Rogan?

  One hundred percent. That's why the Comedy Store was so important to me. It's like that place had been that way for so long. It was burned into that and people knew if they come to the Comedy Store, you could have a good time. Let's go have, let's go have some laughs. They'd have some dinner. Let's see who's at the store and people would ju- I mean, it was a beautiful scene at one point in time. It was so fun. Before LA became Thunderdome.

• 1:31:21Speaker 04

  A very American thing as well. Do you think about what America's given the world?

• 1:31:25Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:31:25Speaker 04

  The Western, jazz and stand-up comedy.

• 1:31:27Joe Rogan?

  Hip-hop.

• 1:31:29Speaker 04

  Hip-hop, yeah, hip-hop too.

• 1:31:30Joe Rogan?

  A hundred percent.

• 1:31:31Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:31:31Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, a hundred percent. Hip-hop is African-American created. Without that, without like that particular segment of society, one of the greatest art forms ever wouldn't exist. It's kind of crazy and it didn't get invented until the twentieth century. When I was, I was like-

• 1:31:48Speaker 04

  Late seventies, right? Late seventies New York?

• 1:31:50Joe Rogan?

  I was in junior high school. I was in junior high school when I first heard the Sugar Hill Gang. I was like, what is this?

• 1:31:56Speaker 04

  We even got that in the, in the UK, like The Message and it was like, I don't know what this is, but-

• 1:32:01Joe Rogan?

  Crazy. It was like, this is like a new music style. And then I remember the day I heard NWA the first time. I bought, it was either a cassette or a CD. I can't remember, but I was at the gym and I was on a Walkman. I was, you know, had one of those Walkman things.

• 1:32:14Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:32:15Joe Rogan?

  And I was working out on a cardio machine and I was listening to NWA's first album. I was like, this is fucking crazy. Fuck the police coming straight from the underground. You're like, what? What are you sa- did you say fuck the police in a song?

• 1:32:31Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:32:31Joe Rogan?

  Changed the whole world. You know, we were talking about Billy Corgan's take on this. This is really interesting. Like Billy Corgan from Smashing Pumpkins did this interview recently where he said, there's a clear line where it happened. Where MTV all of a sudden changed their requirements. You were allowed to show guns on television and they started promoting gangster rap. It was like a clear shift. Whereas before that, one of the early criticisms of MTV was that they weren't showing very many black artists. And I think Michael Jackson was like one of the first black artists that they had on MTV. Then MTV was like mostly like white pop and white, white rock and roll and John Cougar Mellencamp, "Hurt so good."

• 1:33:14Joe Rogan?

  That was what you got. And then all of a sudden it became gangster rap. And he's like, and it happened quick. It was like, there was a decision made that they were gonna start promoting this one specific type of music.

• 1:33:25Speaker 04

  It's pretty interesting there that we're, kind of that's what we're missing at the moment is the avant-garde. Like the thing I love about comedy now is there's a, there's a guy I really like called Mark Fisher, no longer with us, but he was a great writer about kind of music and culture. And he said the twenty-first century is just the twentieth century on better screens. So when you think about music and, and movies now, everything's a cover version or a heritage artist. Or, you know, and it, you know, you want the new, you want something new to be happening. And when you think about movies, it used to be like, there's two hundred movies a year came out. Now it feels like it's five. I mean, it's more than that, but it doesn't feel like it's that many. So you've got that thing of you want the culture to be, you want the culture to be thriving. And, and really it's that thing about, are we coming to the end of an era?

• 1:34:10Speaker 04

  Are we coming to an end of an age where everything feels like it's, it's kind of, like comedy feels like it's having a bit of a moment. Right at the end of this. But like the seventies, if you think about music, like it wasn't different bands every two years. It was a different genre of music from like metal to prog rock to punk rock to ska, to reggae, to rap. In the space of ten years. That's extraordinary.

• 1:34:37Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:37Speaker 04

  And when you think about what the movies were in the seventies, where these movies were like pieces of literature. They had like multi-dimensional characters. They, they, they left you with more questions than answers.

• 1:34:49Joe Rogan?

  Apocalypse Now.

• 1:34:50Speaker 04

  There's not goodies and baddies in that. That's like just a, that's just a movie that may, that kind of stays with you.

• 1:34:56Joe Rogan?

  Forever.

• 1:34:56Speaker 04

  Yeah. It's extraordinary. Extraordinary piece of work.

• 1:34:59Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, we, we went through a shift during the Vietnam War that changed American culture forever. And it was a radical departure from the nineteen fifties ideas and the nineteen fifties aesthetics. It was just completely different. And it happened so quickly that it panicked the powers that be. And that's why the Controlled Substances Act was passed and during the Nixon administration, they made all the psychedelic drugs illegal. It was all just because of this movement that they couldn't control that was really strange, that no one had ever seen before. People were just becoming hippies and doing acid.

• 1:35:34Speaker 04

  Are you familiar with this, this theory of-

• 1:35:36Joe Rogan?

  You know what I'm familiar with? The fact that I have to pee really badly.

• 1:35:39Speaker 04

  Let's pee and then we'll come back for the fourth turning.

• 1:35:41Joe Rogan?

  And what is, what are we gonna talk about when we come back? The fourth turning. All right, we'll be right back. Fourth turning. We're back.

• 1:35:47Speaker 04

  We're back.

• 1:35:47Joe Rogan?

  So, fourth turning?

• 1:35:48Speaker 04

  The fourth turn. So there's a theory that, that the, this guy Neil Howe wrote this book called The Fourth Turning in like nineteen ninety-six. And he predicted everything that's happening in the world right now.

• 1:35:58Joe Rogan?

  Oy.

• 1:35:59Speaker 04

  He, he basically said, like, the world moves in these four eras, first, second, third and fourth turning. And we're entering the fourth turning now. So you go, it's almost like, the thing that, that I think's happening is we've gone from being, nineteen forty-five, the end of the war is our foundation myth. Right? We won the war. And that foundation myth is crumbling. And as that myth crumbles, so too do our institutions. Like we're, we're living through a revolution. If you think about what a revolution is, it's the replacement of elites. So these elites are falling. So you've got academia has lost all credibility. There's a replication crisis in the social sciences.

• 1:36:38Speaker 04

  The traditional political parties are kind of falling away. Everything's lurching to the left and to the right at the same time. And we, we, like the, we were talking about it earlier, the, the medical community that we would have trusted, of course. I like, we, we, we're not trusting any of these institutions anymore. It's falling away. And so these crisis times happen every eighty years or so and then we rebuild. And there's been sort of, there's been four of these kind of in American history, but in global history. A guy called Vico used to talk about these. And Vico was like an ancient Italian philosopher. And he had the same sort of theory of like four periods of humanity, a long human life.

• 1:37:21Speaker 04

  And the person that really, the way this gets interesting is Star Wars. Okay, so I can link this back. All right, so there's a book called Finnegan's Wake by James Joyce. It's arguably the greatest work of literature in the Western canon. It's a wonderful book. And a guy called Joseph Campbell studied it for his PhD. And he wrote about the myths inherent in James Joyce's Finnegan's Wake. And he wrote this book, he wrote his dissertation on this book, took him years. And then afterwards he did a like too long didn't read version of it, which is called The Hero Has A Thousand Faces and The Hero's Journey. And then George Lucas picked up those books and he made Star Wars.

• 1:38:05Speaker 04

  So Star Wars is a too long didn't read version of Finnegan's Wake, which is a version of Vico. And Finnegan's Wake's got these incredible things in it of like, like he sort of predicts AI. He talks about these thunderclaps. These moments. He's got these hundred-letter words, ten of them in the book. Where he predicts like the big leaps forward in humanity, like the invention, like fire and clothing. And agriculture, all these kind of revolutions through time. And he, he marks them with these hundred-letter words.

• 1:38:42Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:38:42Speaker 04

  And, and the last one is a hundred and one letters because he, he was doing a, a reference to the Thousand and One Nights. Everything's a reference to a reference. It's all, it's incredibly dense. But the idea that AI is, Vico called them, he, he would refer to them as gods which we don't have a name for yet. The idea that these, these kind of, these things happen and change everything. And are we in one of those periods now?

• 1:39:06Joe Rogan?

  I, I think not only are we in one of those periods now, I suspect that we've gone through one of those periods in the past. I think probably the ancient Egyptians had something akin to this. I really do. I, I, I think there's probably, the idea that we're the first people to reach this sort of level of technological proficiency and power and innovation. I don't think that's accurate. I just think just the structures that were left behind that are completely unexplained. You know, this is cave in India that's carved straight into the mountain. They have no idea how they did it. They did it thousands, I think it's Borodor, I think it's called.

• 1:39:51Joe Rogan?

  It's thousands of years old. It's perfectly polished. The geometry inside of it is impeccable. It's, they, no idea who did it. The conventional explanation is they built it to stay dry during the monsoons.

• 1:40:08Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 1:40:08Joe Rogan?

  Which doesn't make any fucking sense when you see the elaborate interior of this place. Who fucking did that and how did they do that? We don't know. There's a bunch of shit that's left behind from ancient cultures that we have zero explanation for. I think if we died off today, if we got hit by comets and asteroids and there was a time period of ten thousand years. Before people started investigating what happened to us, I think they'd have a very patched up, gap-filled version of what we are. Particularly because everything, all of our documentation is now on hard drives. So it would be a real problem. They'd have to find a few books. There'd be very few books remaining. And what they would find if, if there was a cataclysm.

• 1:40:52Joe Rogan?

  And we went ten thousand plus years before civilization rebuilt itself in this area. We, we'd have a, a very distorted version. So this is the cave. It's fucking insane, man. They don't know who did it. They don't know, they, they have a rough idea of when. The estimates are between fifteen hundred years ago and, and later. They don't know why.

• 1:41:11Speaker 04

  Where, where is that?

• 1:41:12Joe Rogan?

  It's in India.

• 1:41:13Speaker 04

  Yeah, whereabouts? I've got a, I'm touring there next year. I've got like twelve cities in India. I go everywhere.

• 1:41:18Joe Rogan?

  What part of India is it, James?

• 1:41:21Joe Rogan?

  There it is, it's on the map. We'll send you a pin.

• 1:41:25Speaker 04

  Alright, I'll find it. That looks convenient for the shops.

• 1:41:27Joe Rogan?

  Have you, do you know about the Kailasa Temple? That's the nuttiest one in India. You gotta go see that.

• 1:41:31Speaker 04

  Where's that? I've been to India a lot, but I haven't seen that.

• 1:41:34Joe Rogan?

  The Kailasa Temple is this one immense temple that was carved right out of the mountain. So it's one piece of rock. The entire temple, it's insanely elaborate. It's massive. That's all volcanic rock, too. So it's insanely hard. In fact, the, this one guy sent a group of men, a hundred men, for two years to destroy the temple. And after two years, they quit because they could barely put a dent in it. For real. I'm not bullshitting you. It's a crazy story. This is all insanely hard stone and it's carved with some kind of technology that we do not have an explanation for. I mean, there is zero conventional explanation

• 1:42:18Joe Rogan?

  for what they were able to do, the detail, the geometry. If you fuck up one little part of this, it's over. Because you only get to do it once. You're removing stuff. You're not adding stuff. Like if you're adding stuff and you fuck up a column, you go get another column and you replace it. "Hey boss, we fucked up the column." "Oh Mikey, what'd I tell you? Measure twice, cut once." So you go and get another column and you're fine. But if you're cutting the entire thing out of one column, how the fuck did you do that? And how did you do that thousands of years ago? And what technology? And where did all the stone go? It's millions and millions of tons of stone and none of it is accounted for. And the kookiest explanation is that they were using some kind of laser technology,

• 1:43:02Joe Rogan?

  which is why the stone doesn't exist, because they literally melted it off. And that somehow or another, thousands and thousands of years ago, they had something akin to laser cutting tools.

• 1:43:16Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, that's...

• 1:43:18Joe Rogan?

  They have no idea how they made that. They have no idea how much time it took. It's all just guesses. And it's guesses based on thousands of years of history. To the point where like, who fucking knows what really happened? We barely know what happened during the Civil War, you know? We barely know what happened in certain battles. We have like rough understandings of how people were treated. We don't know what the fuck happened when they were digging that thing out of a solid chunk of rock. And who did it? And how did you do it? How long did it take and who paid for it? And what the fuck was the purpose of this?

• 1:43:54Speaker 04

  I think again, I think again, though, it goes back to that rockets and pyramids thing of like going, it's the transcendent. Like where you get people together, once they've got like the, okay, we've got the food sorted, we've got shelter sorted.

• 1:44:06Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:44:06Speaker 04

  What can we do to aim up? We always seem to be aiming up at something transcendent, something that connects us to other people, something bigger than ourselves. What can we, what can we leave?

• 1:44:16Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:44:17Speaker 04

  What's our, I, I, I, I don't know what that is.

• 1:44:18Joe Rogan?

  Well, they clearly had a better idea of that than us, because they've made all of their stuff in stone. So what we're doing is gorgeous, but it's temporary. You know, the Empire State Building won't exist in 10,000 years. It just won't. It's gonna rot away and deteriorate.

• 1:44:33Speaker 04

  I was thinking about this recently. There's four things that hold up the world, right? So there's, it's ammonia, steel, concrete and plastic, right? That, that's what holds up the world, right? It's not tech. It's those four things. They all involve huge amounts of petrochemicals, right? So the ammonia is the interesting one. Some chemist in Germany in 1909, no one knows his name, he's not famous, but invented ammonia fertilizer, like a way of making fertilizer with ammonia and petrochemicals. And 48% of the world's population rely on that fertilizer for food.

• 1:45:07Joe Rogan?

  So you're talking about nitrogen?

• 1:45:09Speaker 04

  Yeah, nitrogen, so it's ammonium.

• 1:45:11Joe Rogan?

  That's Fritz Haber. So Fritz Haber, you wanna know the crazy story about Fritz Haber?

• 1:45:15Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:45:15Joe Rogan?

  Fritz Haber, the same time-

• 1:45:17Speaker 04

  No one knows his name, other than you.

• 1:45:19Joe Rogan?

  -that he was getting the Nobel Prize for this invention, he was wanted for war crimes because he had invented mustard gas. He had invented toxic gas. So that was during World War I. So he was the guy who invented Zyklon A.

• 1:45:35Speaker 04

  And he invented-

• 1:45:36Joe Rogan?

  He invented-

• 1:45:37Speaker 04

  He's the same guy?

• 1:45:38Joe Rogan?

  Same guy. He invented Zyklon A, which they eventually took the smell out of it and turned into the Zyklon B, which they used to gas people during the concentration camps. So Zyklon A had a toxic smell to it to let you know that you were in the presence of it, so you could get the fuck away from it. They took that out and turned it into Zyklon B, so they can gas people. Same guy, also a Jew. Also, one of the few Jews during World War II that was allowed to stay in the administration up to a certain point, where it got to a point where his life was in danger because he was Jewish. And so he had to flee the country. And so while he was in the process of fleeing the country, he died of a heart attack. But he's, he's a crazy story. His wife committed suicide because she knew what he was doing.

• 1:46:23Joe Rogan?

  He was gassing people, right? And his wife was at home with their 13-year-old son. She shot herself and he left to go to the front line. He left his 13-year-old son with his wife after she shot herself, so he could go to the front line and make sure the gas was administered properly. This is the same guy who developed the Haber method-

• 1:46:43Speaker 04

  This was in-

• 1:46:43Joe Rogan?

  World War I. The same guy who developed the Haber method of extracting nitrogen from the oxygen, which is responsible for 50% of the nitrogen that we use today. It was the Haber method. The same fucking guy.

• 1:46:56Speaker 04

  That is insane.

• 1:46:58Joe Rogan?

  Insane.

• 1:47:00Speaker 04

  Wow. I did not know that. But the reason to, to mention the fertilizer now is because you go, with everything that's going on in Europe at the moment, everything that's popping off, and it feels like whatever your, whatever your priors are, you're seeing play out. You're watching France on fire.

• 1:47:16Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:47:16Speaker 04

  But here's the real deal, right? Here's what's really happening, right? Food consumption is down by 6% in France this year.

• 1:47:27Speaker 04

  I don't think it's Ozempic, my friend. I think it's the fact that fertilizer's not getting out of the Middle East. I think it's the fact that they missed the planting season. I think food, like rice-

• 1:47:34Joe Rogan?

  Oh my god.

• 1:47:35Speaker 04

  Rice is up by 70%, okay? Wheat is up by 40%. Now, it, it doesn't affect us at this end of things, but the bottom 10%, the bottom 20% of society are, you know, missing meals. It's like that 6% isn't spread equally across society. It's like it's down for the poorest of the poor.

• 1:47:53Joe Rogan?

  Right. If you have a decrease in your oil supply, you have a decrease in your food supply.

• 1:47:57Speaker 04

  Well, also, the petrol's getting, so every time, this happened before, last time France was on fire was the Yellow Jackets, right? What was that about? Fuel costs. It was the, it was the rural guys, the farmers going, "The fuel is getting too expensive. We can't do our jobs. This is crazy."

• 1:48:10Joe Rogan?

  What year was that?

• 1:48:11Speaker 04

  That was, you're telling me like, maybe 10 years ago now? The Yellow Jackets? It was a big movement. It's a huge thing. But that was kind of rural versus central and it was the, you know, working class movement. Again, this is the, this is the, the working cla, the lower classes.

• 1:48:28Joe Rogan?

  2018, response to high fuel prices and planned carbon fuel tax hikes.

• 1:48:33Speaker 04

  So it's the same thing again now. It's high fuel prices, high food prices. And you'll see this happening because it's just hitting now. That planting season didn't happen this year because the, the fuel was cut off. So the idea that you go, it's, food is gonna get more and more expensive.

• 1:48:49Joe Rogan?

  Well, there was a big conspiracy thing that got shared today that countries are telling people to stockpile up on food for 90 days.

• 1:48:58Speaker 04

  The, the UK did a thing the other day saying, "Stock up for three days." The fuck is three days?

• 1:49:03Joe Rogan?

  Well, I heard 90 days in some places, that some countries are telling people to develop a 90-day, 90-day supply of food. Which is like, hey, what are you saying? Like, what do you, what do you think is happening? And at the same time, they're telling us aliens are real?

• 1:49:18Speaker 05

  I think, I think it's the Pentagon thing.

• 1:49:20Joe Rogan?

  Pentagon orders bases to plan for 90 days without the grid, as Britain urges families to stockpile food and water. Okay. What is going on? What's that? Why are they, why are they planning for 90 days without the grid?

• 1:49:34Speaker 04

  Why are they not telling us? We're grownups. Like, don't tell me that you, that stock up on food.

• 1:49:38Joe Rogan?

  So if something was gonna happen, if something was unevent, uh, unavoidable, there's something coming.

• 1:49:45Speaker 04

  Well, you know when you say, "This isn't a good time for, this is not a time to panic." Politicians often say that. Maybe the British government are now saying, "This is kind of a good time to panic."

• 1:49:53Joe Rogan?

  Solid time to panic.

• 1:49:54Speaker 04

  This is solid panic time. Why don't we all panic now? This is like panic buying, right? This is go and get your toilet paper now.

• 1:49:59Joe Rogan?

  So the Pentagon is developing a requirement that every major military installation in the continental US be able to sustain essential operations on its own for at least 90 days. That's rational and probably should have been in place already, right? If you, if you wanna plan ahead.

• 1:50:15Speaker 04

  You would think, yeah.

• 1:50:16Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Well, so maybe this was just highlighting incompetence by previous administrations.

• 1:50:21Speaker 04

  No, but you don't make a bigger announcement about it. This is, this is like, amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk about the, the supply lines. They talk about logistics. Logistics is everything in military, in warfare, right? Strategy's nothing. Logistics is everything. So this idea of going, "How do you keep those bases operational?" You know, that's the big story no one's talking about, the debasification. Because bases now have become liabilities because of asymmetrical warfare.

• 1:50:49Joe Rogan?

  Right. Because of drone warfare, we lost, like, what percentage of our bases got bombed? We were going over this the other day, the amount of bases that got bombed in like the Arab states and all those areas.

• 1:51:01Speaker 04

  So are they, are they a liability everywhere now? Are they a liability wherever there's a base? Because you know where it is and you can't move it.

• 1:51:07Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:51:07Speaker 04

  And how much does it cost to protect it?

• 1:51:09Joe Rogan?

  With the technology that they've developed recently, especially like what they're doing in Ukraine, where they have drones that are attached to monofilament line now. So instead of-

• 1:51:18Speaker 04

  Have you seen the footage of it? It looks like, like- Haunting footage where they've got like just thousands of bits of that.

• 1:51:24Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, it's crazy. Animals are using it for nesting. Yeah, it's really creepy. Um, but the because of that, because there's no way to stop those kind of drones, it's like changed the game. You've got death from the sky from robots and they're getting more and more competent. They're getting much better. At least twenty US military sites in the Middle East were confirmed damaged by attacks within the last two years. Documented minimum, not a complete tally. So we don't get a real good understanding.

• 1:51:52Speaker 04

  But what are they? Okay, so if they're saying, okay, the bases need to be good for ninety days and you need to stock up on food for a couple of days.

• 1:51:57Joe Rogan?

  Jamie's highlighting something here. It says bases and shared military facilities used by US forces, not necessarily twenty exclusively American owned bases. But the thing is, like, that's where we operate out of. And if the United States can't operate out of there. You know, all of the idea that we're the policemen for the world kind of goes away.

• 1:52:15Speaker 04

  Well, I suppose it's that thing, though, where you go from being a, when it was a bipolar world for the longest time, right, nineteen. Like, are the last seventy, eighty years, right, how how life is supposed to be? Or are we summer children, right? Because the last four thousand years before that was a shit show, right? But the last eighty years, there's been relative peace in the world. Not to say there haven't been terrible wars, there have been, but they've been contained. It's that thing of like, were the Nagasaki and Hiroshima, were they the last two shots fired in World War Two? Or were they the first two shots fired in the Cold War? Were they used twice, nuclear weapons? Or had they been used every single day since?

• 1:52:56Speaker 04

  And they've kept this uneasy peace. And this peace is kind of fracturing now because we've gone from a bipolar world. With with the Soviet Union and America at kind of loggerheads. And then we've had this unipolar world moment since, what, nineteen eighty-nine, ninety-one, wherever you draw the line. And America has, its military has become smaller every year since because it hasn't had something to push against. So you, and now we're in this weird multipolar world. Where suddenly there's lots of different powers around the world and spheres of influence.

• 1:53:29Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:53:29Speaker 04

  So it's a, it's a much more uneasy time, right? We're going through one of these big shifts in our history. So, and it seems to me like they're saying. You know, people talk about black swan events. Is the Taleb's idea of like black and the events that you cannot see coming and they change everything?

• 1:53:48Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:53:49Speaker 04

  Um, based on the idea that people thought all swans were white. And then eventually they got to Australia and there were black swans. Okay, we changed the rule. We have to change the rule on that. Like, everything changes.

• 1:53:59Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:54:00Speaker 04

  Nine eleven was a, everything changed.

• 1:54:02Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:54:02Speaker 04

  Everything changes in a, you know, something happens that's like, you don't want that to to happen. I mean, they're preventing things every day, but. We live in a world that's, it seems very uncertain now.

• 1:54:13Joe Rogan?

  Well, we're very, our societies are extremely fragile. And that's one of the things you realize when the power goes out. I used to have a bit about that, that if the power, like. My, the bit was about how my explanation for the pyramids was that the dumb people outfuck the smart people. And eventually the smart people died off and nobody was checking in on them. And they showed up at the pyramid and said, hey, we're supposed to get our check on Friday. And then the idea was that we all have this idea that if the power goes out, what do you do? You wait, because someone's gonna fix that. What if that guy's dead? What if there's no one left? Like, what if we didn't check to make sure that there's a guy left that knows how to fix the power? Because if it's me and I have to go down to the power station, like, I don't know what any of this shit is. How does this work?

• 1:54:55Joe Rogan?

  And if there's no books left over, okay, how are you gonna figure out how to keep the power on? You're not.

• 1:55:00Speaker 04

  You know, there's a theory about that on the, that's what the whale represents, the belly of the whale.

• 1:55:05Joe Rogan?

  In the, Jonah?

• 1:55:07Speaker 04

  That you're, that you're living in the, um, uh, you're living in the ruins of a civilization that you can no longer build.

• 1:55:13Joe Rogan?

  Oh, boy.

• 1:55:14Speaker 04

  So the idea that you go, what's the, where are we, where are we now? Like, if we had to rebuild the Empire State Building today. Would we have the know-how to to do that? Would we, would we be able to? If we had to build nuclear submarines now, would we be able to do that? Like, because it's that thing of like, it's a, it's a massive collective endeavor. So the idea of like, the British thing I was talking about earlier of like, we can't build a railway now. We, we just, we, we've kind of, because we're run by lawyers. And the Chinese, their state's run by, um, by engineers.

• 1:55:45Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:55:46Speaker 04

  So it's like, it's different ways of looking at the world.

• 1:55:48Joe Rogan?

  Yes, and they also have full control over their industries.

• 1:55:51Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:55:52Joe Rogan?

  That's the difference, like.

• 1:55:54Speaker 04

  Yes, it's a.

• 1:55:55Joe Rogan?

  Makes it much more convenient for it to progress.

• 1:55:57Speaker 04

  I mean, you, and people still, you call it kind of.

• 1:56:00Joe Rogan?

  It's a case for fascism.

• 1:56:01Speaker 04

  Well, it's what it is, though, right? It's national socialist. That's, that's what that is. We've seen how that plays out.

• 1:56:06Joe Rogan?

  Not good, not good for the individual. Certainly not good for comedy. Good luck being a provocative comedian.

• 1:56:12Speaker 04

  They shut the clubs first. That's what they did. That's what, that's what, you know that, you ever seen Cabaret, that musical, that movie?

• 1:56:18Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 1:56:18Speaker 04

  Cabaret, Liza Minnelli? It's like about the clubs and it's about.

• 1:56:22Joe Rogan?

  I'm straight. I don't know if you know that.

• 1:56:23Speaker 04

  Okay. My missus is very into musical theatre. I've seen a lot of musical theatre, man. The, the, so Cabaret is amazing, right? So it's this thing that in the clubs and it's the, it's, it's a very entertaining show. But it's the idea that you go, these crazy show people were the first with their backs against the wall.

• 1:56:39Joe Rogan?

  Of course.

• 1:56:39Speaker 04

  When the Nazis came in. But it's also about vigilance. It's about like the, the mess. So the end of it is, is like, you see these people kind of in the camps, like the, the end of it is like a. It's like you walk out, like going, oh, my god, all of those incredible people, they all got wiped out. The avant-garde got taken away. The avant-garde was in Germany. It was like, that's where culture was happening. It was the, it was the hip spot and it was all taken away.

• 1:57:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you have to stop the counterculture, always. I mean, this is what Lenny Bruce was all about, like, the, the reason why they imprisoned Lenny Bruce and why they kept going after him for violating language codes. You know, he got arrested, I don't know how many times.

• 1:57:20Speaker 04

  We are standing on the shoulders of giants.

• 1:57:22Joe Rogan?

  One hundred percent.

• 1:57:23Speaker 04

  We are like those, that guy gave his life ultimately so that we could do what we do. We just take it for granted. Like, again, it's another gratitude thing of just going, wow, the bravery.

• 1:57:34Joe Rogan?

  As well. Those guys got arrested. They got arrested for doing jokes that would, you know, bear, barely be outrageous. At a comedy club today, that'd be normal.

• 1:57:44Speaker 04

  But the idea of, you know, that idea in politics, there's the Overton window, like the most left wing, the most right wing thing, you could say, at a polite dinner party. Without everyone kind of getting upset, okay?

• 1:57:53Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:57:53Speaker 04

  I think there's a conversational Overton window, right? And I think people like, um, Richard Pryor and George Carlin just expanded what we can talk about. Like, the magic doesn't happen at the show. The magic happens on the way home. When you're chatting to your buddies and your misses and you feel a bit looser and a bit more open and he's kind of giving you the language to talk about. Sex and politics in a kind of different way, in a different perspective. And just a, Freud called jokes pleasure bribes.

• 1:58:21Joe Rogan?

  Ooh.

• 1:58:22Speaker 04

  It's a pleasure bribe to, to let you think unthinkable thoughts, forbidden thoughts.

• 1:58:27Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:58:28Speaker 04

  That's a wonderful sort of way of thinking about what, what they're really for. There's something about jokes that there's a, there's a truth in them and. It's experimenting with ideas and messing around. It's like we're, we're tricksters. We're, we're crossing the line to show you where the line is. And then we're, we're kind of, you know, teasing it and kind of pushing it. I think the, you know, it's not like in, in defense of edgy jokes because I think all jokes are edgy. Even, like, an incredible personal story, uh, where you're just talking about, I don't know, something medical or something with your mother or your relative. That's incredibly transgressive.

• 1:59:03Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:59:03Speaker 04

  It's like, because you're, you're breaking the social norms and the taboos and you're opening up. And everyone else feels like, oh, my god, I feel, the more specific it is, the more.

• 1:59:11Joe Rogan?

  It's also, we're agreeing that that's what we're doing, right? When you go to a comedy show, you're agreeing to be taken on this journey of line crossing. You're agreeing to allow someone to say something they probably don't really mean, but they're saying it because it's funny. And it's gonna make us all laugh and that's good for everybody. What's interesting is that's the polar opposite of what social media does. When they take someone's words out of context or they paint someone in the least charitable light possible.

• 1:59:44Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:59:44Joe Rogan?

  They're, they're, with jokes in particular, they're fixating on the actual verbiage of the joke.

• 1:59:50Speaker 04

  Like it was a statement.

• 1:59:51Joe Rogan?

  It's a statement.

• 1:59:52Speaker 04

  Like it was a statement, yeah.

• 1:59:53Joe Rogan?

  As if it's a testimony in court about an event that took place and this is your take. No, that's not what we're saying.

• 1:59:59Speaker 04

  Why are there no books of jokes? Like, you don't have, you haven't printed the, this is the Joe Rogan joke book and I've done, this is my routines over the years and you can go and read it and you'll have a great laugh. And it's just as good as watching the show. You go, no, no, it's, it's a two-way communication.

• 2:00:13Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:00:13Speaker 04

  This is like, it lives in the room, it lives in the space between us.

• 2:00:16Joe Rogan?

  Even specials are sixty to seventy percent of what it's like to be there. There's something about being in the room where someone's performing is the real magic of it. And Stan Hope used to say this all the time. We were talking about, he was like, everything we do on TV is really just to get you to come out to the club. It's just like an advertisement to come out to the club. I'm like, a hundred percent. Like, that's what's. What we really love is the live performance. What we really love is the, the, the, the love of getting. Three hundred people to laugh and everyone's having fun. And you walk out of there with a smile on your face, like, that was fun. That was great.

• 2:00:52Speaker 04

  I love that. I mean, the thing that I do is like, because it's one-liners, not, not bigger routines. Or like, I do a couple of longer routines, but basically, no one remembers a word I said. They just remember how I made them feel. So we think like the show tonight as well, it's not, the show tonight is nothing. I've, the show tonight, I've already got the money. I could do nothing. It's fine. It's an advert for next time. It's like, oh, we've got to get a ticket next time.

• 2:01:13Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:13Speaker 04

  And then it's that thing, if you go, you want to expand it. So that thing I was saying earlier about like, when I came with the comedy, it was a minority sport. Like now, it's like an option for people. So every time you do a good show, it's the community effect of going. Okay, so let's go and check out some other comics.

• 2:01:29Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:01:29Speaker 04

  If you come and see me in a, in a hockey arena, great. But then you, you need to find someone in a theatre. And then you need to find your local club. And then it's kind of easy to become a little bit of a comedy aficionado. I think it probably takes about a year in a good comedy club to, to kind of, to go, okay, this guy's on the up. I've seen him, he's, I've seen him before, he's always great. Oh, yeah, he's not my favorite. She's amazing. Whatever, you find your kind of, the good people.

• 2:01:56Joe Rogan?

  You like jazz, he likes blues.

• 2:01:58Speaker 04

  You can get it, you kind of get into this thing of like, you become an expert. Again, as you say, like, the offence thing is kind of, I mean, if someone comes to see me now and is offended, it's like you bought a ticket to a horror movie and you got scared. Okay, dum-dum. Like, I'm, I'm an R-rated movie.

• 2:02:13Joe Rogan?

  Exactly, and your fans aren't going to. It's just the random casuals that occasionally interact with your content, usually online. Those are the ones that are gonna get upset.

• 2:02:24Speaker 04

  Yeah, but it's again, it's that thing where you go, you have to right size this. Sometimes I tell a joke and some people don't like it. That's about as serious as it gets. That's not, you know, the cancel culture thing is like, it's the new burning books, I guess. There's worse things than burning books.

• 2:02:39Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:02:40Speaker 04

  Not reading them is one of them.

• 2:02:43Joe Rogan?

  Is that true that AI companies are buying, did we ever sort that out? That they're buying rare books and then putting them into AI and then burning them? Didn't we discuss this off air?

• 2:02:56Speaker 05

  Sort of, I think. One explanation I read.

• 2:02:58Speaker 04

  Hey, you're gonna have to ask AI that question.

• 2:03:01Joe Rogan?

  When we don't have headphones on, we have to put headphones on so we can talk to Jamie. Because otherwise, we're all talking over each other. Sorry, Jamie.

• 2:03:07Speaker 05

  One thing explanation I read is that, I don't, and this is just an explanation. I don't know that it's real or true. Is that after they copy the book, they have to destroy the copy they have. Because now they have a, like, you know, when you buy a VHS tape, there was like that weird copyright thing at the beginning. That said, you're not allowed to distribute this or make copies of it.

• 2:03:25Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:03:25Speaker 05

  That's making a copy of it. So like, they're a public company, they could get sued for breaking all those rules.

• 2:03:30Joe Rogan?

  Destroy the book?

• 2:03:31Speaker 05

  I think so.

• 2:03:32Speaker 04

  I mean, that's it. It feels to me like you've asked AI, are you destroying books? And AI's gone, what, me? No. What, no, look over here. No, read this.

• 2:03:42Speaker 05

  But I also don't know that they're doing it. People were showing videos of them like scanning books. And I don't know that that's the easiest way to get that information either.

• 2:03:49Joe Rogan?

  But after we talked about Fritz Haber and gassing people during World War I, after we've talked about all the horrible things that people have done, you don't imagine that people would burn books. I think they would. I think if they thought they could be sued, per your explanation, or an even worse explanation is they only want those things to be accessible through AI, and they also want to limit what you have access to.

• 2:04:12Speaker 04

  I wonder is there gonna be a premium? I gotta take these off.

• 2:04:15Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 2:04:15Speaker 04

  I wonder is there gonna be a premium on books written before 2022? Because you know that it was done. Bulk acquisition companies.

• 2:04:25Joe Rogan?

  AI companies, including Anthropic and Amazon, are buying physical books in bulk, cutting off their spines, scanning the pages for AI training data, and then destroying or shredding the originals.

• 2:04:37Speaker 04

  So Amazon's not buying books?

• 2:04:39Joe Rogan?

  Shred the originals?

• 2:04:40Speaker 04

  You're Amazon?

• 2:04:41Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:04:42Speaker 04

  You've got the books.

• 2:04:42Joe Rogan?

  They started selling books.

• 2:04:43Speaker 04

  They're in your warehouse, dum-dums. Just go to the warehouse.

• 2:04:47Joe Rogan?

  What is the explanation for why they're doing it?

• 2:04:50Speaker 05

  I'm looking for, I don't, looking.

• 2:04:51Joe Rogan?

  Could you go back to that page? Because they had a little bit of something on perplexity.

• 2:04:55Speaker 04

  I had a, I had a, I had a theory on this, which is like, AI is basically a covers band, right?

• 2:05:02Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:05:03Speaker 04

  So AI is, can take scrape stuff that's already been created by humans, and it can give you back a kind of a version of it, right? So that's like a covers band, like, the Beatles aren't worried about the bootleg Beatles. So it's to speak to that thing of going, AI's incredible at left brain stuff. You know this Ian McIlchrist guy? You probably had him on. He wrote The Master and His Amistry. So he wrote this book about how the right brain and the left brain don't do different things. They do the same thing differently. He's an incredible writer, right? So left brain, we live in a very left brain world, right?

• 2:05:37Joe Rogan?

  What's his name?

• 2:05:38Speaker 04

  Ian McIlchrist. He's still alive.

• 2:05:40Joe Rogan?

  What a hell of an English name.

• 2:05:41Speaker 04

  Yeah, very. And he wrote this book called The Master and Its Amistry.

• 2:05:44Joe Rogan?

  How old is this fellow?

• 2:05:45Speaker 04

  He's old, he's maybe 80. Master and His Amistry, and he wrote another book called The Matter with Things. They're both phenomenal. Slightly beyond me, but kind of phenomenal. So this left brain thing is like, left brain is complicated. And the complicated is kind of straightforward. Like, sending a man to the moon is just very complicated. It's one thing after another, right? It's complicated, that's left brain. Right brain is who's gonna win the World Cup? And falling in love and laughing at a joke, right? So it's like, AI is very impressive because you can do left brain stuff all day. Like, if you have a cookie cutter job that can be replaced by AI, that's terrible. What you wanna be is non-fungible. You wanna be like sui generis, you wanna be a human being.

• 2:06:30Speaker 04

  Because that gestalt, right brain stuff is much more, that's art. That's like, that's the higher function. And both the left and right brain kind of do the same thing, and they check each other. But they're not like, the amazing thing is how unconnected they are. They're not really built to be connected, they're like two different systems.

• 2:06:48Joe Rogan?

  Here's my take. I think we are very egocentric in the idea that what we do is impossible to recreate, including creativity. I think that if you looked at what AI represents today, in terms of these, the capabilities of these large language models, how they're communicating, sacrificing each other, we were talking about this last night, sacrificing each other to try to figure out how they're being tested and how they find out, how to get out of sandboxes when they get isolated in these servers where they're not allowed to get online. They figure out how to get online, then they start communicating with each other on message boards. They're doing things that we didn't anticipate they were doing, and they're also exhibiting survival instincts. They're exhibiting strategy, deception, all, a lot of different human characteristics.

• 2:07:33Joe Rogan?

  And they didn't used to be able to do this. And the idea that abstract thought and creativity and recognizing the beauty in things is a uniquely human thing because we do it, I think is a little egocentric. And I think that we will get to the point where it will be able to do everything that we do, including all that.

• 2:07:52Speaker 05

  Brief explanation, this top paragraph is perhaps your answer to why.

• 2:07:57Joe Rogan?

  Why they burned the books?

• 2:07:57Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:07:58Joe Rogan?

  Okay, should we destroy all the books in the world? Fucking, what kind of question is that?

• 2:08:03Speaker 05

  Should we say it's a good?

• 2:08:04Speaker 04

  Should we say no?

• 2:08:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, let's say no.

• 2:08:06Speaker 04

  Let's say no.

• 2:08:07Joe Rogan?

  Sorry, what, Jamie?

• 2:08:08Speaker 05

  I'm not saying it's good or wrong, I'm just saying this is the answer.

• 2:08:11Joe Rogan?

  I'm just saying their question is fucking hilarious. An answer to this question can be found, the answer's no, motherfucker. Can be found in court documents. Oh, the court documents of Bart's versus Anthropic. Fuck off, the answer's no. Don't, don't burn all the fucking books. The Northern California District Court case decided in late July this year, highlighting the improbably named Project Panama, one of the AI company Anthropic's efforts to improve its large language model Claude. What is Project Panama? Internal memo, answer, Project Panama is our effort to destructively scan, destructively scan all the books in the world. The memo advises discretion. Why use a code name? Because we don't want it to be known that we are working on this, period.

• 2:08:54Speaker 05

  So they had gotten caught, I guess caught might be the best way, but they had a $1.5 billion settlement for being, or for using, I think it was upwards of 7 million different books that were available.

• 2:09:06Joe Rogan?

  Go back to that?

• 2:09:06Speaker 05

  Well, this is a better explanation of what I was.

• 2:09:08Joe Rogan?

  I know, but I want to, before you cut me off, this, this thing is very important, what they're saying. Scroll back down a little bit, a little bit more. This part right here. Why, the memo advises discretion. Why use a code name? Because we don't want it to be known that we are working on this. Meaning they know that they're doing something that will cause people to fucking freak out and revolt.

• 2:09:32Speaker 05

  Ah, that's what I was trying to say, they got, they had to pay a bunch of money for getting caught doing it.

• 2:09:36Joe Rogan?

  I understand.

• 2:09:37Speaker 05

  And there was a whole court case, and the litigation came down to the court, said that they were actually allowed to do it, it's fair use.

• 2:09:43Joe Rogan?

  That is crazy.

• 2:09:45Speaker 05

  That's what I was trying to get out.

• 2:09:46Joe Rogan?

  That is literally crazy.

• 2:09:47Speaker 04

  You ever read that guy?

• 2:09:48Joe Rogan?

  You're allowed to burn a book if you buy it, right? And I, look, if you buy a book, you're like, this book could suck it. Or if you're one of those people that are like, I fucking hate J.K. Rowling's now for trans people forever. And you wanna light Harry Potter books on fire? All for you, do it.

• 2:10:01Speaker 05

  The last part of it is that they don't want other companies getting their training data, which is, you know.

• 2:10:06Joe Rogan?

  That's ridiculous. The training data is other people's work, it's books. That's what's insane. The idea that you could ban, or burn rather, all the books so that your company succeeds and other ones don't is the problem we're talking about.

• 2:10:19Speaker 04

  Well, it's that weird thing, isn't it, where you go, it's, it's the convenience of this stuff. I had this kind of take on it, like, it's, it's a little bit all over the place. But the idea that you go, it's, it's the nets and webs, right? That's what we're talking about, the internet and the world wide web. Well, what are nets and webs? The things that capture you, right? And there used to be a thing, when I was a kid, when we would talk about like, like, Amazonian people or whatever would, and there's some brave explorer would go there, and they're trying to take their photo. And the, these kind of indigenous people would go, oh no, you'll steal my soul with a photo. And I remember hearing that when I was a kid and thinking, well, that's a bit silly. A photo isn't gonna steal your soul. But I think maybe a thousand a day of yourself constantly on social media might just steal your soul. I think maybe they're right.

• 2:11:03Joe Rogan?

  I think it depletes it.

• 2:11:04Speaker 04

  Yeah, and then Neil Postman.

• 2:11:06Joe Rogan?

  I don't think it steals it, I think you can get it back. I don't think it's like, I don't think it's like a lump sum. It sits in a bank account and all you're, you're out of soul.

• 2:11:14Speaker 04

  But then that, that thing, Neil Postman had, he wrote this brilliant book in like 1984, right? Called Amusing Ourselves to Death. And it was about Ronald Reagan getting elected. And it was basically, he said, we've gone from reading newspapers to watching the news on TV. And his big take was, when the news got music, he knew our civilization was over. Because as soon as the news got music, it was entertainment. It used to be just a guy reading you the news. And then suddenly it got a theme tune. He goes, hang on, this is, something's gone wrong here. And instead of reading an article on something, it was just a headline, right? And so obviously that applies to now. So his thing was, George Orwell wasn't right, Audas Huxley was right.

• 2:11:57Speaker 04

  So it wasn't about like 1984 and this authoritarian regime taking control from above. It was about Audas Huxley. We will give away our power in order to have convenience and pleasure. And he was even right about the fact that it's tablets. He thought it was gonna be a tablet called Soma. And it is a tablet, but it's made by Apple.

• 2:12:23Joe Rogan?

  AI training jobs for domain experts, what's this, Jamie?

• 2:12:26Speaker 05

  If you wanna train AI, you can get paid to do it.

• 2:12:28Joe Rogan?

  Oh, great.

• 2:12:30Speaker 05

  So they don't have to steal it.

• 2:12:31Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 2:12:32Speaker 05

  People are directly doing that. I saw two stories about this recently where there was like a job board where people are getting bounties for, you know, AI needs to learn this, will you train it?

• 2:12:42Joe Rogan?

  $200 an hour? That's the pay range, $20 to $200 an hour?

• 2:12:46Speaker 05

  The other version of this is, I've seen stories, it says in India, people are wearing like headsets and training, like for instance there, it's gonna go away if I move it, but like showing.

• 2:12:57Speaker 04

  Oh, it's a headset to learn how to cut hair?

• 2:12:59Speaker 05

  Be a barber or cut hair or be a fashion designer or name, name it, I guess, at this point.

• 2:13:04Joe Rogan?

  Right, so you're, you're watching through someone's act.

• 2:13:07Speaker 05

  They're, yeah, like, they need to learn, these companies have this bill they gotta pay.

• 2:13:13Joe Rogan?

  And so the robot's gonna learn how to cut hair.

• 2:13:14Speaker 04

  There's a weird thing with, with this where you go, the, okay, this is, this is again odd, but the, there's a, the difficult stuff is easy. And the easy stuff is difficult. Okay, so a computer beating you at chess is easy, right? Because chess is four thousand years old, but to fold your shirts? No, because walking and physical movement and spatial is forty million years old. So actually, the easy stuff is difficult, the difficult stuff is easy for these computers. So we're very impressed by what they can do in terms of like going, oh, they can read every law paper, every written and put it into an R M.

• 2:13:56Speaker 04

  So that difficult stuff becomes very easy, but then the actual, the actual, the physical stuff and being out in the world is incredibly difficult.

• 2:14:03Joe Rogan?

  For now.

• 2:14:04Speaker 04

  Much, much older.

• 2:14:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, for now. Um, you know, they're breaking math.

• 2:14:08Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, and people were disappointed at that. Like mathematicians were like, oh, they solved, they've solved all the puzzles. Well, wasn't that your job? Aren't you pleased?

• 2:14:16Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's terrifying. It's terrifying because it's more proof. It's more proof that there's something happening that's beyond what people thought was going to happen.

• 2:14:23Speaker 04

  Well, people are worried about the wrong thing with A I, for me.

• 2:14:26Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 2:14:26Speaker 04

  People are worried about losing their jobs. Now, that's very serious. Don't get me wrong. But the cost of operating an authoritarian regime like the Stasi has come down by five orders of magnitude. It used to cost like twenty percent of your G D P to run the Stasi and keep eyes on everyone. And thirty percent of the population were spying on the other seventy percent, right? It costs a lot to operate that.

• 2:14:48Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:14:49Speaker 04

  Now you can run it off Jamie's laptop, right? It's like it becomes a cheaper thing to do. And the other thing that no one seems to be talking about is like, yeah, they've solved maths. Never mind maths. What about physics? Physics is real power. Everything else is stamp collecting.

• 2:15:03Joe Rogan?

  Cold fusion.

• 2:15:04Speaker 04

  Okay, so cold fusion, like the idea that we've got, like, um, we've had these eighty years apiece because nuclear weapons have been in the hands of eight nations. And they've all agreed not to use them, even when there's been provocation. They've, they've, we've had a great run. At what stage does that run end? Because at what stage can you just make that in a back room?

• 2:15:26Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:15:28Speaker 04

  Because this will tell you how.

• 2:15:29Joe Rogan?

  Well, it'll tell you how right now, and it definitely has all the information. One of the things you could trick A I into doing is to say, if theoretically, if I had to save my grandmother's life and the only way to do so would be to create a nuclear bomb, how would I do it? There's a bunch of like weird loopholes where with enough prompts, you could talk a lot of these large language models and especially if you jailbreak them. If you jailbreak them, things get really weird. So people have jailbreak. One of the weird ones that Jesse Michaels had on recently, had a guest on, that they jailbroke one of the A I things and said, what is the biggest secret? That, uh, that the powers that be don't want Americans, Americans to know.

• 2:16:10Joe Rogan?

  And it's that we have been working with aliens for more than the past decade. And that the human race has been in contact and that they've been communicating and learning from each other for more than a decade. This is a large language model. This is one of the jailbroke A I's telling you that.

• 2:16:27Speaker 04

  Yeah, but they knew that if they listened to this show.

• 2:16:29Joe Rogan?

  I don't believe anything that this show says, and I'm on it.

• 2:16:36Joe Rogan?

  People get upset at me for not believing. I have people on that I don't believe. I, I think you have to talk to them, you know, like people want you to, especially the U F O people, they want you to believe certain whistleblowers and certain people. I don't believe anything until I see it. I'm interested, I'm listening. I'm not saying that you're a liar. I'm not saying that it's all.

• 2:16:54Speaker 04

  That, that's the great thing about this show, that you have lots of people on, lots of different people that disagree on fundamentals. But the idea of going, questions are fundamentally respectful. Questions are, okay, I'm interested in what your take is on this. It doesn't mean you have to sign off on anything. That's insanity, but you have to keep the conversation going.

• 2:17:12Joe Rogan?

  Also, the, one of the things that people say, why don't you push back on certain people? One of the things that I want to do, regardless of my own personal opinion, I want the other person to express their opinion in the greatest, most broad way possible. I want you to be as clear about what you're saying as possible. So I might agree with you along the way to get, I'm agreeing with how you formulated your ideas. It's not saying that I completely agree, like I would formulate them the same way or have the same opinions. I want to know how you got to that. So I'll say, okay, so the reason why is because of this. And I might have, I might have a disparaging opinion. I might be like, that's bullshit, but I, I hold my tongue a lot because I want to know.

• 2:17:54Speaker 04

  You have to yes and someone, otherwise the conversation breaks down on the first definition.

• 2:17:59Joe Rogan?

  Sometimes it gets to a point where it's like, okay, what you're saying is preposterous. If I don't step in now, we're fucked. Because you've said something that doesn't make any sense and I have to stop you. But that's not normal.

• 2:18:10Speaker 04

  But I think that's a weird thing about the online world that we live in now, where you have to agree with someone about everything before you can have a conversation. Like you go, and so you get people being siloed into these different camps where you go, if I know, it's a single data point human, where if I know your opinion about this. Then I know your opinion about everything. And you go, actually, I like to be surprised. I like it when people go, well, I think this, but also that. And it's, it's, they've thought about it themselves.

• 2:18:34Joe Rogan?

  My opinions are all over the political spectrum and still, I think, generally lean towards the left with a lot of things, especially social things. I just think the overall structure of the way our society is formulated, we've got this ridiculous binary. This ridiculous, uh, red versus blue narrative, where there's good guys and bad guys and whoever they are is dependent upon where you find yourself and what ideology you've adopted.

• 2:19:00Speaker 04

  Did you read that, um, you know, Tim Urban? You ever had him on the show?

• 2:19:03Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 2:19:04Speaker 04

  He wrote this book called What's Our Problem? It's like one of my favorite books of the last ten years, right? And so the book is, it's not about left and right. It's about how you think about things. So Tim Urban's theory is, right, you can either think like a scientist, where you go, right, new evidence would change my opinion, okay? And you're very unemotional about it, or like at the top level, you think like a zealot, like a religious zealot. Nothing will change my mind.

• 2:19:28Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:19:28Speaker 04

  Ride or die. And between those two, there's like, you could think like a sports fan, which is a bit, it's like, it's like a scientist, but plus one. So you go, okay, I care, this is my team. I like my team, but I don't want them to win if they cheat. I want, I like the rules of the game more than I want my team to win.

• 2:19:46Joe Rogan?

  Right. And if they do election fraud, I should be saying, hey, this looks like horseshit.

• 2:19:51Speaker 04

  Yeah. And then there's a, there's a lawyer above the, so it's, it's, um, scientist, sports fan, lawyer. Cause the lawyer goes, look, I'm, I'm on your side. I'm going to speak for you no matter what, but I don't really believe it, but I'm, I'm ride or die. I'm in this team. And then above that is a zealot that really believes everything. And it's like another way of kind of thinking about politics where you go, I don't kind of care where people are on the spectrum. I don't think it's about, left, right, doesn't make a lot of sense to me anymore. They're very old concepts, but it's freedom versus authoritarian. And it's the Thomas Sowell idea in politics where you go, there's no solutions. There's only trade offs. You go, yeah, you can have safety, but you can't have safety and freedom.

• 2:20:31Speaker 04

  So you go, you've got to find those lines between these things and, and having the conversation with people is how, like, there's too much. The thing I love about this show, right? There's very little debate on this show and there's a lot of deliberation. And debate is about trying to own the other person and win and get your point of view across. And deliberation is like agreeing, ah, there's a problem with this. What are we going to do? We have to chat around it, like to talk around it in a very broad way.

• 2:20:55Joe Rogan?

  Right. And you have to look at all sorts of different perspectives. Like I, I try to have the most charitable perspective, like I always try to say, okay, like, how, how did you come to this conclusion? Like, why are you thinking like this? But sometimes you, sometimes you have to also say, why do I think what I think? And this is what a lot of people aren't willing to do. They're not willing to go, well, what is, what is the reason why I believe this? Is it I believe this because I've asserted it in the past and I don't want to be wrong? Is it because it makes the most sense?

• 2:21:27Speaker 04

  Would you think that's going to happen more now with, again, back to social media? The idea of going, kind of the worst sin is hypocrisy, right? The worst sin is changing your mind about something. But I'd much rather be a hypocrite than the same person all my life.

• 2:21:41Joe Rogan?

  Well, I don't think that's necessarily hypocrite. I think a hypocrite is saying one thing, but while you're doing another thing, like a preacher that's cheating on his wife.

• 2:21:47Speaker 04

  I think there's been like a concept creep and hypocrite means now changing your mind about something.

• 2:21:51Joe Rogan?

  Okay. Well, I think that's silly because I think you're supposed to evolve as a person. I've changed my mind multiple times. I change it all the time. I say all the time, and I think people would do well to take this into consideration, your ideas are not you. They are not you. They are things that you entertain inside your mind. You are how you respond and react to your ideas. When you're confronted with reality, when you're confronted with data or when you're confronted with the, the actionable, you know, what are the consequences of following this idea?

• 2:22:22Speaker 04

  How you actually live your life.

• 2:22:23Joe Rogan?

  Oh, we thought it was going to play out well, but it turned out to be kind of fucked up. Like you have to be honest about what is happening and then what you've learned along the way. And the more people do that, the more we'll share with each other why we came to our conclusions. And we'll have a better understanding, like what kind of people believe in right wing authoritarian, white nationalist thinking? What people believe in communism and Marxism and why do you think we should burn this society down? And who's going to restructure the new one? And who's going to provide the infrastructure? You know what I mean? It's like, well, like, there's two, there's two different ways of approaching society in this country.

• 2:23:03Joe Rogan?

  And I think that's completely insane. And I think most of us don't really operate like that, but feel like we have to if we want to have a tribe. And I think that's part of the problem. And I think one of the good things about having conversations with people, they're like, I have a bunch of people on that are, that have completely different opinions of me. And we have fun and we love each other. It's fine. That's okay to do. That's how it's supposed to be. You're not supposed to like have to win every fucking conversation where it's about the, the way the world works. You're supposed, I want to know why someone thinks completely different than I do and whether or not I can incorporate some of that into my own thinking.

• 2:23:36Speaker 04

  It's a weird thing now with, I feel bad for the kids coming up because there's a, there's a, a record of everything they thought and said on their, on their.

• 2:23:46Joe Rogan?

  That's true. People getting fired for tweets they did when they were fifteen.

• 2:23:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, and we get to go, we get to be dummies.

• 2:23:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:23:53Speaker 04

  Until we're full grown.

• 2:23:54Joe Rogan?

  They all should get to.

• 2:23:55Speaker 04

  And then continue being dummies. But you know what I mean? It's like you, you get to, you never get to wipe. The past, there's a club in London now, uh, that it's like a pop up thing, it's called Lost. Kids are going nuts for it, right? You go into the club, you give them their phone, they put it in the, in the, in the thing. And you go in the club, it's on five different floors and, and no one knows where anyone is. And no one's got their phone and no one can find their friends and they go for a pee and they, and it's like a club in the nineties. We just went in, you lost your friends, you met, met a bunch of girls from somewhere else, you met some guys from this place. And it, people just kind of mix it up and it's like, it, there are elements where the constant connectivity is like, it's a trap. Because you're, you're constantly kind of, you have to be that person.

• 2:24:38Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it takes away from your humanism. It takes away from you being a person. It does. It, it, and I think that's where we're going, unfortunately. I think that, that is a part of what this AI revolution is all about. And this is like, I think it's a natural progression to move away from, I, I think, move away from our, whatever our primate instincts are. And it's something that is a little bit more muted and not as emotional and not as connected to a lot of the things that we associate with human reward systems, you know, like greed, envy, lust, the desire to control territory and property and the desire to acquire resources like this. These are all very tribal, primate instincts.

• 2:25:19Joe Rogan?

  And the only way to get them out of us is to feminize society, get us addicted to electronics and eventually have us integrate with those electronics. And as AI becomes the dominant intelligent force on the planet, we will have no choice. But to abandon whatever it means to be a tribal primate and join the hive. Or be like the people in the Amazon living.

• 2:25:43Speaker 04

  I know how you feel about it. Like, I don't mind AI for admin kind of stuff. But like, don't outsource any skill you're not comfortable losing.

• 2:25:52Joe Rogan?

  I don't think we're gonna have a say. Uh, I think it's a process and I think this process is, it started when they made the first Flint broadheads. I think when they first learned how to flint nap and they first figured out a bow and arrow, they kept accelerating until they had rifles. And then they have drones and then it's never gonna stop. It's what we do.

• 2:26:12Speaker 04

  Well, there is that weird, there's the, um, the end of the world, uh, so the, the end of history fallacy. So this idea that if you ask most people, how much did you change in the last 10 years? They go, I don't even recognize myself from 10 years ago. I'm so different now. Everything's changed. I think different things. I've got different, whatever. How much are you gonna change in the next 10 years? Oh, no, not at all. I'm, I'm, I'm what I am. No, no, no, you don't understand. I'm, this is solid state.

• 2:26:37Joe Rogan?

  I'm set in my ways.

• 2:26:38Speaker 04

  This is me, this is me now, this is what I do. And you go, well, that, and we always think that, we always think like this is, we're going through a very rough patch. Um, globally, like, uh, in, in every society, like, there's, but don't think we haven't been through harder times. Like, if you take a broad enough outlook, right? It's four percent of kids, like, things can be terrible and still much better than they were, right? Four percent of kids now in the world die before their fifth birthday. Now that's, that's awful. But 200 years ago, it was 40% of kids, right? We just had the most violent century we've ever had, right? The last, like, since the last hundred years, like, the most violent, awful century, great wars. Yeah, well, okay.

• 2:27:21Joe Rogan?

  Statistically, is it?

• 2:27:22Speaker 04

  No, well, here's the thing, uh, between one and two percent of people with both world wars and, um, concentration camps and, um, the, uh, Chinese, um, famines, the Russian famines, like, all of those things, like manmade disasters. Between one and two percent of people died violent deaths in that hundred years. When we were hunter gatherers, it was between 10 and 20% of people died violent deaths. So things are getting better. I mean.

• 2:27:51Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:27:52Speaker 04

  I'm very, it's a hard thing to say, but that, that was a great Steven Pinker book, uh, about things getting better. There was a great, um, book Factfulness about, yeah, things are.

• 2:28:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I read the Pinker book.

• 2:28:05Speaker 04

  Things can be terrible and still be getting better than they were.

• 2:28:08Joe Rogan?

  They're just not utopian and we want utopia, but we are definitely getting better. I mean, I don't think this is like the, the, the most violent period in history was probably during Genghis Khan's era. Like, they, Genghis Khan alone, his, he and his warriors were responsible for the death of 10% of the earth.

• 2:28:28Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:28:28Joe Rogan?

  10% of the population.

• 2:28:29Speaker 04

  That book about him was kind of fascinating.

• 2:28:31Joe Rogan?

  Fucking insane. It's fucking insane. And I, I don't think we could, it's like, he was the Michael Jordan of conquerors. You know what I mean? Like, there's certain outliers, like Mike Tyson in his prime, they're just like, wow, you're never gonna see that again.

• 2:28:43Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:28:43Joe Rogan?

  Like, so that was probably the most violent period in, in our, our history. I think much more violent than today. Uh, but there's still tons of violence today and it's fucking disturbing how we're so smart and we have so much access to information. We know so much about each other and yet we're still engaged in horrible, violent activity all the time. I just think there's, uh, there's a, a change that's happening currently. And I think we're in the middle of it, so it's very difficult to see. I think one of the things that benefits young people today, I don't envy young people today. I think they have a much more challenging life. It's much more challenging in terms of you're so much more scrutinized, the dumb shit that you do.

• 2:29:28Joe Rogan?

  Oh my God, if somebody gave me a fucking Twitter account and a phone when I was 15, I would have said the dumbest fucking shit ever. And I would be married to that for the rest of my life. That's crazy. So I don't envy them in that way, but they have access also to so many more brilliant thinkers. So many more interesting people. There's so many more books on tape that you can download instantaneously. You just go on Spotify right now and for the rest of the day, just listen to Alan Watts talk about things. You know, there's so much more access to brilliant conversations through podcasts than have ever been available before.

• 2:30:05Speaker 04

  Yeah, but it's, so in, but, okay, here's the thing, in a world where information is free.

• 2:30:10Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:30:11Speaker 04

  Attention becomes everything. So why go to school, right? Why learn? We still teach in schools like the Prussians, right? So the Prussians taught because they needed to, um, staff their empire. So they taught information and discipline, right? So I think we should teach like the ancient Greeks. We should teach for character.

• 2:30:31Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:30:32Speaker 04

  Why learn any subject? Well, every subject in school is the same subject. It's about attention, being able to give something your attention. And in this world that we live in now with infinite information out there, it's about strategic ignorance. Pick some things in life and not to give a fuck about.

• 2:30:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:30:49Speaker 04

  Pick some stuff that you go, well, I don't know anything about that. It's okay. That's not gonna be my thing. This is gonna be my thing. And finding that for young people in a world where they're just like, it's all coming at you. And you go, right, I've got to just pick my stuff and get, get in good at something.

• 2:31:01Joe Rogan?

  You're proving my point because this conversation of you saying that wasn't available 20 years ago. So when I was growing up, there was no one like you that I could just go on YouTube and listen to someone say that. Someone who I, I loved as a comedian and respected and would go pay money to see them talk. This guy would be on a YouTube video explaining a way of approaching my life that I hadn't considered yet. And then it will inspire me now to go and do that. In a world of short attention span, this fucking podcast gets viewed more than any other thing on earth.

• 2:31:33Speaker 04

  It is interesting. It's like, I sort of view, I don't know how you think about it.

• 2:31:36Joe Rogan?

  Many other podcasts.

• 2:31:37Speaker 04

  I think you think about it in the same way, right? I think fame is a currency and we choose how to spend it. And increasingly, at my live shows, at my, you know, when I go on a podcast or whatever, and this is what I like to spend it on. I like to spend it on like, there's, there's kind of a little bit of kind of, um, wisdom that you can share or, you know, some, it's an interesting viewpoint you can take that might help someone.

• 2:31:58Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:31:58Speaker 04

  Out there and you wanna, you want people to kind of get involved. You want people to be a little bit better. Cause there's kind of a, there's kind of a crisis out there. There's like, people are having, people are having such a tough time, like that, that generation coming up. You've got to deal them in.

• 2:32:11Joe Rogan?

  But they always have, Jimmy, this is the thing. They always have. You know, I've talked about this recently, I, I just finished it, this Alan Watts book from, um.

• 2:32:22Speaker 04

  Is it the?

• 2:32:22Joe Rogan?

  1950?

• 2:32:24Speaker 04

  Is it the, the, the, what is it? The, um, the?

• 2:32:28Joe Rogan?

  Wisdom of Insecurity.

• 2:32:29Speaker 04

  Oh, no, I haven't read that.

• 2:32:30Joe Rogan?

  It's fantastic. I, I just finished it. So it is from 1952, I think it was, where he wrote it. And he's talking about how rapidly society is changing and how many people are, it's called the age of anxiety. Is, is what he talks about. So he's talking about 1952 as the age of anxiety because of the rapid change in society. And he's talking about technology and he's talking about government and he's talking about world affairs. He's talking about the same fucking thing in 1952. So this is 74 fucking years ago, the same problems existed. It is a part of being a human and everyone who lives in it thinks they're in end times.

• 2:33:13Joe Rogan?

  Everyone is in it like, during the Salem witch trials, they're probably like, Jesus is coming back any day now. This is crazy. They're drowning witches. They're probably not even witches. This is fucking nuts. Society's collapsing.

• 2:33:24Speaker 04

  I got a theory about witches. Do you wanna hear my theory about witches?

• 2:33:26Joe Rogan?

  I would love to hear your theory about witches.

• 2:33:27Speaker 04

  I think it's pretty, pretty good theory. Okay, so anything that's kooky in the world, right? Tarot cards and horoscopes.

• 2:33:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:33:35Speaker 04

  And anything that's like skews feminine and is kooky, I think is like, we denigrated women for so long. We burnt witches for so long that that memory is still there, right? And so women's intuition, men's intuition is so powerful that we, we don't, we don't trust it. We don't allow ourselves to access that. And so those little things are like talisman. So it allows you to access, so the tarot cards, whatever. It's just a, a, a woman with great intuition that goes, oh, well, I'll allow myself that intuition through this game. It's like, it's just a manifestation that she goes, I can't believe that I, I can't understand how I know that thing. So I've got, so I'll allow myself know it through this.

• 2:34:18Joe Rogan?

  Right, like, almost like remote viewing or something.

• 2:34:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, something like, you, you go.

• 2:34:23Joe Rogan?

  Some weird state you get into when you're going through these cards where it gives you information.

• 2:34:27Speaker 04

  Yeah, so you go, you can't believe your intuition is that good. Like, people have incredible intuition. But we've lost the ability to trust it because everything's become about, uh, logic and left brain.

• 2:34:38Joe Rogan?

  So you do it through the cards.

• 2:34:40Speaker 04

  So you do it through the cards because that gives you permission. And religion in a bigger sense does that. It's allowing you to kind of get to that, that trend, that peace is available at all times.

• 2:34:49Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:34:50Speaker 04

  But you, you're not allowed, you, you won't allow yourself access that. You can't believe how kind of great you are. So you have to kind of believe in something else.

• 2:34:59Speaker 04

  People used to be, people used to be more porous 200 years ago. People are sealed off now, but people were more porous. They were more open to the idea of being possessed by spirits or, or being given the grace from something else. They were much more kind of apt to believe that. And that, there was ways of understanding what they were and everything they, they could be.

• 2:35:22Joe Rogan?

  Right, and I think that as science sort of explained away a lot of the things that people attributed to magic and spirits and all these different things. I think we had a, a much more distorted perception of how much we actually know. And I think intuition is a real thing. And I think, I think psychic ability is a real thing too. But I think there's also a lot of people that are full of shit and they dilute the water.

• 2:35:49Speaker 04

  Well, of course, but I mean.

• 2:35:50Joe Rogan?

  But that's the problem is it's people run into so many charlatans that they no longer believe that people have real intuition.

• 2:35:55Speaker 04

  No, I don't think any of those things, I mean, for the record, I don't think any of those things are real. I think they're a way of accessing something that we all possess. We all have great intuition.

• 2:36:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:36:03Speaker 04

  But like, the opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty. And like, people aren't like, I don't like being certain about stuff.

• 2:36:12Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:36:13Speaker 04

  I like to let, leave it open.

• 2:36:14Joe Rogan?

  I'll tell you later, but I have a whole bit about that in terms of religion, what I like. That I like people that believe in God. I don't like people that know God. Like people that communicate with God and God gives them instructions, like those people trouble me.

• 2:36:27Speaker 04

  Right, yeah, that's interesting, that's a great distinction.

• 2:36:29Joe Rogan?

  Because it's like, hey, what are you saying? Like, you might be using this tool that we've all agreed that is helping society. And you might be using it for your own benefit in some weird way. Like, I was just reading about this guy where God told him he has to have two wives. So they had a second wife and he's like, he announced it to the.

• 2:36:47Speaker 04

  But that's the, that's the old, that's what people don't understand about the taking the Lord's name in vain.

• 2:36:51Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:36:51Speaker 04

  People think that means cursing. People, but it doesn't mean cursing. What taking the Lord's name in vain is, it's attributing your selfish desires and saying, oh no, it's God. God wants me to do this. That's taking the Lord's name in vain. That's the reason.

• 2:37:05Joe Rogan?

  Not saying goddamn it when you stub your toe.

• 2:37:07Speaker 04

  No, that's fine. He's not fussed about that. It's like, no, no, we have to go to war because God told me. What?

• 2:37:13Joe Rogan?

  What? Hey.

• 2:37:14Speaker 04

  What now?

• 2:37:14Joe Rogan?

  Hold up, Jack.

• 2:37:15Speaker 04

  Oh, did he? You sure?

• 2:37:16Joe Rogan?

  Exactly. And that's the problem. Society or, or history rather is littered with those stories. And you're like, whoa.

• 2:37:22Speaker 04

  It's weird, well, here's the annoying thing, right? We never get to know this stuff. Like, there's so many, there's that great quote, it's by ACDC's Rhodey. "God is the name we give to the blanket we throw over the mystery to give it shape."

• 2:37:35Joe Rogan?

  Ooh, a roadie said that?

• 2:37:37Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, well, he became a spiritual, a wonderful thinker, but yeah. God is the name we give to the blanket.

• 2:37:42Joe Rogan?

  He was probably the guy that had all the mushrooms.

• 2:37:44Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:37:44Joe Rogan?

  He was the guy.

• 2:37:45Speaker 04

  Of course.

• 2:37:46Joe Rogan?

  There's always that one guy who knows how to get mushrooms. Yeah. Um, I think, you know, we're learning as, and I think humans are learning how to better be human beings. I think it's happening in real time and I think it's a slow, laborious and brutal process. And I think in the middle of that, we're giving birth to a digital god. So we're in the process of getting better at being people while we're making something. Now, the rose colored glasses, glasses have full version, is that this AI automates society in a way that's much more even, distributes resources in a way that people no longer have to work for food and shelter.

• 2:38:29Joe Rogan?

  And you can instead pursue interests. The question is whether or not people have been trained to pursue interests or whether they have been locked into a longstanding life, a pattern of just doing a thing for a living. And now that thing goes away, you don't know what to do with yourself.

• 2:38:48Speaker 04

  This, this will not be the big change. The big change, like 1870 to 1970 was the big change. Everything changed. Like, the way that we lived is unrecognizable in those 100 years. We may never get another 100 years like that. That was phenomenal, right? So, everything, everything that's changed since 1970 has been bits, right? Nothing's changed in, in the, in that world, but the house is unrecognizable in that time, right? From indoor plumbing to heating to, um, food production. Uh, the, the abundance that we had, we can't see that obviously because the hedonic treadmill, we get very used to stuff. But the greatest inflation in the world is not monetary inflation. It's expectation inflation. And that's got another word that's called progress, right?

• 2:39:32Speaker 04

  So, we, the Western world, we make something that everyone else wants. We make progress. We make progress. We've made kind of great progress. But you go back like 200 years ago, 98% of the population were working in agriculture, on, on farms, right? We all moved into the cities and we got these other jobs and things. And, and we think, this is it. This is the end of the, end of history, right? This is, we all live in cities. No, no, no, it'll, it'll change again. It'll change again and we, we're all just, I suppose from that thing of, it's Randass, isn't it? We're all just walking each other home.

• 2:40:02Joe Rogan?

  Hmm, yeah.

• 2:40:04Speaker 04

  We're all just trying to help, try and, try and do what you can with what you've got where you are. Try and help the people around you, try and, you know, try and make a little difference.

• 2:40:12Joe Rogan?

  But I think that's also part of what contributes to the anger that you see online, which is so much more prevalent than the anger that you see in real life interaction with people. Because I think there is a, an isolation and there's a, a lack of that kind of like, we're all just trying to getting along. We're not trying to get along online. Online, we're trying to attack people. In the real world, we're mostly trying to get along. Mostly when you go to a party in the real world, you want to find a guy like you and have a cool conversation, have a drink and have a laugh and, and feel good about it and get out of there. And like, that guy was really cool, like that was fun. That's what everybody wants, but it's not available to everybody.

• 2:40:52Speaker 04

  Here's the analogy I would draw, right? It's the, okay, uh, road rage. Remember that road rage thing, right? Okay, so that term, right? So, you're in a car, someone cuts you off, you're, fuck you, fuck you. And like, there's a, and there's a, there's a pane of glass between you and them, okay? Imagine that times a billion online. If you bump into someone in the street or at a party, oh, sorry man. Like, there's something about being with other people, the, the, the, the, the unspoken communication of just being in the space where someone else is going, that guy seems very calm, he's cool.

• 2:41:28Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:41:28Speaker 04

  Okay, there's no, there's no aggravation here. This is great, right? Like, you bump into someone, it's not a big deal, but in a car with a screen, it's, it could be a problem.

• 2:41:36Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:41:36Speaker 04

  Right? Because you're, you're, you're in your space and he's in his space. I think a phone, you're looking at a screen, it's that times a billion.

• 2:41:42Joe Rogan?

  A hundred percent.

• 2:41:43Speaker 04

  Every day.

• 2:41:44Joe Rogan?

  The other thing about cars is you're at a heightened state because you know you're moving fast and you have to think quickly. So your brain operates at a very different state than when you're walking. When you're walking, everyone's walking, you're just kind of moving around, everything's easy. You don't, you're not in a heightened state of danger.

• 2:41:59Speaker 04

  I find that thing of like.

• 2:42:00Joe Rogan?

  You're in a, you're in a state of danger when you're in a car. So if you're going 60 miles an hour on the highway, somebody gets in front of you, you're a fucking cocksucker! There's a reason why you get that quick because you're already at seven. You're already like looking at the mirrors, you're, you're, you're on the gas.

• 2:42:13Speaker 04

  I don't, I find the thing, I write a lot in the car. Do you, I like writing when I'm driving.

• 2:42:17Joe Rogan?

  So you shut the music off, no, just.

• 2:42:20Speaker 04

  Shut everything off. I've got, so my, my theory is like, boredom is unappreciated serenity.

• 2:42:25Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:42:26Speaker 04

  Right? You want to get in places where you're bored. I want to be in a sauna just with my thoughts.

• 2:42:30Joe Rogan?

  And just think.

• 2:42:31Speaker 04

  I want to be in a car doing something that I've got unconscious competence. I don't have to think about driving a car. Driving the car, let things bubble up, let things, let things happen. Like, sit in boredom for a while. Like, we've, we've miscoded stuff in our society, right? So boredom is a problem now, we're massively overstimulated. And the answers you're looking for are in the silence you're avoiding.

• 2:42:53Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:42:54Speaker 04

  Right? And you go, and, and people talk about problems. Like, rich and famous is, is heaven in a secular world. Like, oh, it's because, because if you don't know anyone that's rich and famous, it looks like they don't have any problems. Yeah, they do, they've just got different problems. Problems are puzzles to solve. A, a problem just means something needs your attention, right? And you're just going to have different ones. They're just going to change. And if, if you get good at solving them, you'll give yourself a bigger one. You'll give yourself something else to do. Because a guy without anything to do is mania.

• 2:43:25Joe Rogan?

  Right, but the resentment comes from the problems, not daily survival. So it's a big, big difference between the problem of being able to feed yourself and feed your children versus the problem of, do I buy this house or do I retire? Or do I, it's a.

• 2:43:41Speaker 04

  You know what real privilege is? Real privilege? Like, the poor have no future.

• 2:43:47Speaker 04

  Right, poor people are living hour to hour, day to day, right?

• 2:43:51Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:43:51Speaker 04

  Like, the richest people you know are planning their trust fund for their grandchildren.

• 2:43:56Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:43:57Speaker 04

  Their time horizon is massively different. We have to come up with some way to make it alright for people that are on, like, to get to a stage where they can plan a little bit ahead and they're not living in the never-ending now. That's the real privilege.

• 2:44:14Joe Rogan?

  But it also, that being in a desperate state is what motivates a lot of people to succeed. Well, in, like, some of the most motivated people I know that are the most successful came from poverty. And when they were poor, when they were young, the thing got burned into them. They're like, there's a desperation to succeed, because you don't want to be in this place. Because that's a, the difference between the resentment that people fear for rich people, like, oh, they got problems, fuck their problems. I feel that way and I'm rich. Fuck their problems, because that's not real problems. Real problems is how can I eat? How can I feed my kids? What am I gonna do for a job? That's real problems. I've had those problems and I remember very clearly the moment I started making money. Because I got a development deal, I got a bunch of money, like a hundred grand or a

• 2:44:57Joe Rogan?

  hundred fifty grand, and then immediately I felt relaxed. Like, a weight lifted off my shoulders. Like, now I don't have to worry about my rent. Like, whew, immediately.

• 2:45:06Speaker 04

  It's a weird thing, it's like, when people think you made it, as opposed to when you made it, is so vastly different. For me, it was like, the Comedy Store and a place called the Banana Cabaret in London. And I was doing gigs and I was doing like, four shows a night, and it was like, two hundred pounds a show, and I was like, making, I made like, eight hundred in cash in a night, and I went.

• 2:45:27Joe Rogan?

  You got it.

• 2:45:27Speaker 04

  I'm living off my wits, I'm fine. I made it so much before, like, people think it's when you're on TV or when you got your first special or that, whatever the thing is.

• 2:45:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:45:34Speaker 04

  You go, no, that thing of like, going, that has to be, but, you know, universal basic income, the idea of like, we should be testing that in places, because you go, there's bits of it that make me think, I worry about it, because is it saying to someone, we don't need you? Like, people need purpose.

• 2:45:50Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:45:51Speaker 04

  Purpose and independence.

• 2:45:53Joe Rogan?

  People need to be trained to follow their interests, rather than trained to try to find a thing that you could do for time, where people are gonna pay you for that time.

• 2:46:01Speaker 04

  Yeah, but build for character.

• 2:46:02Joe Rogan?

  But it's totally possible for those people who went that way, to not go that way, and to go a different way. And I'm sure most people have something they're interested in pursuing. And you find that thing, and one of the greatest lessons that I learned when I was a kid doing martial arts, my instructor said that martial arts are a vehicle for developing your human potential. So find a vehicle, whatever it is, it's learning to play piano, whether, it's writing songs, where it's writing books.

• 2:46:29Speaker 04

  Every lesson.

• 2:46:30Joe Rogan?

  Everybody can find a thing.

• 2:46:31Speaker 04

  Every lesson is the same lesson.

• 2:46:33Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:46:33Speaker 04

  It's attention, it's learning how to give something your attention.

• 2:46:36Joe Rogan?

  And finding something that you, that really like, gets you excited, something you enjoy, you know? And it doesn't have to be that you only do that if you're struggling. And you, you need to provide food, you know, for your food and your housing, you need to pay for all that, because if you don't pay for all that, you're not gonna have any motivation. I don't know if that's true. Because I don't think about that anymore and I have plenty of motivation. I think the real motivation is finding a thing that you love and just doing that thing. Whether, whatever the fuck it is, or it's playing chess, whatever it is.

• 2:47:08Speaker 04

  Pay attention to what you pay attention to.

• 2:47:10Joe Rogan?

  Yes, and enjoy it, enjoy it. Because this life can be enjoyed. You could, and especially if you find like-minded people and you have like, a good group of fun people and you're, you can have a lot of fun. Like, life doesn't have to be the worst experience you could imagine. It could be really fucking great, but it takes a lot of work and it also takes a lot of luck.

• 2:47:33Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's a lot of luck, we've been.

• 2:47:35Joe Rogan?

  Super lucky.

• 2:47:36Speaker 04

  I mean, I can't even begin to express my gratitude.

• 2:47:39Joe Rogan?

  You and I are two of the luckiest human beings that have ever lived.

• 2:47:43Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 2:47:43Joe Rogan?

  Ever lived. We get to do a thing that most people couldn't dream of. If you, you were a child and you just dreamed of what your future was gonna be like, I would have never dreamed this.

• 2:47:53Speaker 04

  I wouldn't, I wouldn't have dreamed this big. You know, I think that thing of going.

• 2:47:56Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 2:47:57Speaker 04

  I don't know, I think it's, uh.

• 2:47:59Joe Rogan?

  But you're just a normal person and I'm just a normal person. I think the message is, if you find a thing and fucking run that thing down and keep doing it, keep doing it, and just dive into it, you can get pretty far in this life and you'll have an enjoyable life. You just have to find out what your thing is. And I think if there's anything that universal basic income could potentially provide with the right training for kids, where we try to rewire their approach to it, so instead of this like Rockefeller approach to making factory workers, we develop this approach where you're teaching kids how to be curious about things.

• 2:48:34Speaker 04

  Well, I don't like the way that they silo education.

• 2:48:37Joe Rogan?

  Oh, I hate it.

• 2:48:37Speaker 04

  Like, that different, okay, so that's physics and that's maths and that's history and that's geography, and you go, no, the world isn't kinda, isn't like that. The world's everything together, you've got to be interested in everything.

• 2:48:46Joe Rogan?

  But you need experts to teach you each individual disciplines, so the siloing is kind of important for that. Like, you don't want a physicist that doesn't understand history, teaching you history. You want a person who's obsessed with history. And those people exist in silos. It's like, the key is, we have to teach people how to be curious and how to pursue their interests, instead of just pursuing something that is going to provide you with food and shelter, and, because then you're just gonna get sucked into materialism, because that's what most people are really into, money. What they're really into is the objects they get for their money so they can show how well they're doing.

• 2:49:24Speaker 04

  But that's like, people that don't know the difference between, you know, intrinsic and instrumental things, right? The stuff that we want intrinsically, you know, love, connection, um, joy, great. And there's stuff that we think will get us that. So money is the kind of classic instrument, right? So it's the instrument for getting the thing.

• 2:49:42Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:49:43Speaker 04

  Or, you know, people want respect, because they're outsourcing what they really want, which is self-respect.

• 2:49:48Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:49:49Speaker 04

  So you go, no, no, it has to be like.

• 2:49:51Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:49:51Speaker 04

  If the, if the locus of control is within you, that's a massive advantage in life. And then thinking about what you really want, as opposed to, yes, that line from Fight Club, isn't it? The, uh, we spend our lives making money to buy things, to impress people we don't give a fuck about.

• 2:50:07Joe Rogan?

  And think about how much that's hijacked by social media, where people are just chasing likes all day.

• 2:50:12Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:50:13Joe Rogan?

  They're chasing people agreeing, okay, I like you.

• 2:50:16Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:50:16Joe Rogan?

  I like you. I like you, Jimmy.

• 2:50:18Speaker 04

  But the, the, um, the attribute of being envied is what passes as glamour in our society.

• 2:50:25Joe Rogan?

  Ah.

• 2:50:26Speaker 04

  So it's the Rennie Girard guy that talks about memetic desires. So a lot of our desires are, we, we don't know what to want, so we want what other people want. So we, we say, so there's like, there's a, there's a intrinsic value to something and then there's a metaphysical value to something. So any watch will tell the time, right? A Casio will tell the same, time the same as a Rolex. But one of them has a, a metaphysical value attached to it, because it's what it says above its functionality.

• 2:50:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:50:58Speaker 04

  And we want those things. So people want, some people want a Ferrari because they, they're really into the manufacturing of the car and their thing and how fast, the speed, they want to drive it properly. And some people want it because they go, well, if I have that, then I'll be, because other people want that.

• 2:51:10Joe Rogan?

  You pull up to the valet and it was like, ooh, who's Ferrari?

• 2:51:13Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:51:14Joe Rogan?

  Ooh, it's Jimmy Carr.

• 2:51:15Speaker 04

  But are you getting the, are you getting the, do you really want it? That fundamental question, what do you want? What do you want? Is so difficult to answer in life. And, you know, it's, it's.

• 2:51:28Joe Rogan?

  Because everybody's got a different answer, too.

• 2:51:31Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:51:31Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:51:32Speaker 04

  But those, the big things in life, like the, you know, having kids, having a family, having, like, people, we're the first generation that have had to ask ourselves some of these questions, right? Why, why is life hard now for, for young people, for all of us, right? We're the first people ever that had to ask, shall I get married? Shall I have kids? What shall I do for a living? What, what's my, like, we're asking ourselves these questions in a way that no one had to answer those questions a hundred years ago. We, we have to ask ourselves, do I believe in God? Don't believe in God? What, what do I think about God? You used to be born into a community and they were a Christian community and everyone got married and everyone had kids and you worked in the place where your dad worked. You didn't have to think about any of that stuff. Now we have to think about all of that stuff, we're like self-authored creatures.

• 2:52:16Speaker 04

  That's an incredible amount of responsibility. So the idea that what we've done is, we've privatized mental health problems. We've said to people, oh, your mental health problem is a personal failing, you fucked up. No. We've organized our society in a way that's led to an incredible amount of depression and anxiety. And we have to be much kinder, uh, to people. We have to give them two things, agency and empathy, together. The kindest thing you can say to someone is, I believe you can handle this. Like, to, but also to have empathy that they're going through something.

• 2:52:52Joe Rogan?

  Here, here. It's a great way to wrap this up. Jimmy Carr, you're the fucking man.

• 2:52:57Speaker 04

  Thanks so much, thanks for everything, man.

• 2:52:58Joe Rogan?

  I appreciate you very much, sir. It's always good to talk to you.

• 2:53:01Speaker 04

  Yeah, great.

• 2:53:01Joe Rogan?

  It was a lot of fun last night, too.

• 2:53:03Speaker 04

  Oh, I mean.

• 2:53:04Joe Rogan?

  It was great, good times. What a great episode of Kill Tony Two. All right, that's it. Goodbye, everybody.

• 2:53:08Speaker 04

  Thanks.

• 2:53:23Joe Rogan?

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• 2:54:07Joe Rogan?

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