#2545 - Jesse Michels

Jesse Michels is the creator and host of "American Alchemy," a YouTube series exploring controversial topics in science and culture through longform interviews.www.youtube.com/@JesseMichelswww.patreon.com/JesseMichelshttps://americanalchemymagazine.substack.comwww.jessemichelsmedia.com Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan. Don’t miss out on all the action this week at DraftKings! Download the DraftKings app today! Sign-up using https://dkng.co/rogan or through my promo code ROGAN. Try ZipRecruiter FOR FREE at https://ziprecruiter.com/rogan Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The Joe Rogan Experience.

• 0:12Speaker 01

  Yep. Okay. Hi, Jesse.

• 0:14Speaker 02

  Hello, Joe.

• 0:15Speaker 01

  Right when we walked in, Jamie has apparently been down some rabbit holes.

• 0:18Speaker 02

  Deep rabbit holes.

• 0:20Speaker 01

  And what is, uh...

• 0:21Speaker 03

  Who doesn't go down a rabbit hole?

• 0:22Speaker 01

  Who doesn't? Nobody that I like talking to.

• 0:25Speaker 03

  So here's the name of the thing. I think I stumbled across this video somewhere else, but here's a website.

• 0:30Speaker 01

  Greys frogs and a reptilian on video. MUFON case 142206. Video taken from inside a UFO. And this is from alienarchivist.substack.com, so you know it's legit. What is this? 2021, June 12th, 1:15 a.m. Anonymous man in Key West, Florida, recorded a 42-second video, allegedly... Also, Key West, so you know it's legit.

• 1:02Speaker 02

  Florida man.

• 1:02Speaker 01

  He's definitely not on drugs.

• 1:04Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 1:04Speaker 01

  Definitely not drunk.

• 1:05Speaker 02

  Not on bath salts, for sure.

• 1:07Speaker 01

  42-second video allegedly captured from inside a UFO. Video appears to show the interior of a room containing several distinct entities, with a cell tower visible throughout what appears to be a window in the background, according to the investigative report. The tower's obstruction lights flash at a rate of 30 times per minute, the same rate required under FAA standards for a cell tower obstruction lighting. Experiencer was suffering from severe hip pain at the time. Definitely not on drugs, severe hip pain. And believes the intense physical discomfort... Definitely that and not the drugs. Helped him resist the sedation used by the entities,

• 1:49Speaker 01

  allowing him to instinctively record the encounter. With no conscious memory of the event, he did not discover the video in his phone gallery until six months later. He later underwent hypnotic regression in an attempt to recover his missing memories from that night. Below are the key visually enhanced stills and the 42 seconds of footage. Have you watched this, Jamie?

• 2:11Speaker 03

  I remember watching some of the footage.

• 2:13Speaker 01

  Oh, you were drugged as well? You don't even remember?

• 2:16Speaker 03

  There's no way I wasn't.

• 2:17Speaker 01

  Hypnotic regression?

• 2:18Speaker 02

  I think we gotta watch it.

• 2:20Speaker 03

  I remember watching the people discussing it, though, so I don't... You know, this, I don't think...

• 2:24Speaker 01

  I'm sure this is crystal clear 4K video.

• 2:28Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 2:28Speaker 01

  No ambiguity whatsoever. This is gonna put the... Okay. Holy crap.

• 2:36Speaker 01

  Holy crap. This guy in a sauna? The fuck is this, a steam room? He's got a phone from 1984? What the fuck is this? What's he filming? This is horseshit.

• 2:49Speaker 03

  Some entities sort of pop up here?

• 2:50Speaker 01

  I don't see jack shit.

• 2:51Speaker 03

  Hold on. He says he... I think he answers questions. It's only 30 seconds long.

• 2:55Speaker 01

  Where's the entity?

• 2:58Speaker 01

  Bro, this is the worst video I've ever seen in my life.

• 3:01Speaker 02

  It's the worst video ever.

• 3:02Speaker 01

  This is terrible. This guy is in a...

• 3:05Speaker 02

  Pathetically blinking.

• 3:06Speaker 01

  Fucking closet with a... An old beeper. This doesn't make any sense.

• 3:13Speaker 01

  This is terrible.

• 3:14Speaker 03

  See, when I was watching it, they said that the ceiling pressed down, but I'm not seeing that.

• 3:18Speaker 01

  What?

• 3:18Speaker 03

  So here's still frames of the entities.

• 3:20Speaker 01

  What the fuck is that? Who knows what that is? Who knows what that is? This is nonsense. Oh, that's it?

• 3:25Speaker 03

  Well, they cut it out. I think they're enhanced. This is enhanced. It's gotta be enhanced.

• 3:28Speaker 01

  Do you think that's enhanced? Bro, we just saw the same video, and there's nothing on that video. Oh, that's what it looks like.

• 3:35Speaker 03

  That's the dress is wrong.

• 3:36Speaker 01

  Oh, that's what it looks like. Well, that's better.

• 3:38Speaker 03

  See, that's why I was before...

• 3:40Speaker 01

  So there's frogs and a reptile in a fucking lab coat. Why is the reptile wearing a kimono?

• 3:44Speaker 03

  To save myself here.

• 3:45Speaker 01

  Look at the reptile's wearing a gi. He's about to do some reptile jujitsu.

• 3:48Speaker 03

  I said when I heard the frogs were part of this, I thought it was bullshit.

• 3:52Speaker 01

  It looks like the fucking reptile man's about to get a massage.

• 3:56Speaker 02

  It's like the Sensei T-Rex in the corner there.

• 3:58Speaker 01

  This is so weird. This is a fucking nonsense bullshit. This is the problem with the whole UFO world. And you do a fantastic job of navigating it. And I should just tell everybody, if they haven't seen you before, American Alchemy, best-by-far channel on YouTube when it comes to UFO discussions. You're the most balanced, the most reasonable, but also open-minded, and you're willing to talk to everybody. All the whistleblowers and former this and former that and staffers, and this guy's got this fucking piece of evidence, and you talk to everybody.

• 4:33Speaker 02

  I do talk to everybody, and thank you, Joe. That means the world to me. And I've definitely gotten things wrong, I should say that. It's a very treacherous landscape to navigate. And, yeah, it's really hard to gain any kind of... You know, if there's a signal-to-noise ratio, it's hard to get signal.

• 4:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's a lot of noise. And this is the problem, is I think a lot of that noise is engineered. I think it's on purpose.

• 4:56Speaker 02

  I think it is on purpose, because in today's world with AI, where it's actually easier to deduce the signal than ever if you're an ordinary citizen, if you want to muddy the waters, you could try to get people away from the signal, or you could try to increase the noise. And that's... Those are two ways to deflect from the truth. And I think the flood the zone, increase the noise, is what the kind of counter intel community has decided is gonna be the strategy.

• 5:22Speaker 01

  Well, it's interesting, because instinctively, if you've been around the block, and you've... And you clearly have more than anybody, you've seen enough of these things, something comes up, and you're like, "Okay, I'm being fucked with." Like, "Okay, this is not real." Okay, there's something... And then some of them, you're like, "Wait, okay, there's something here." And it's just... It's almost like you have to go on the instincts that you've developed by being inundated with horseshit for so long.

• 5:51Speaker 02

  Well, I feel like you're probably the best in the world at that. It's all like, you know, and, for example, in AI, in machine learning, you have garbage in, garbage out. So if you have bad data, then like, there's bad output on the other end. And your pattern matching gets better over time. And I think you have more data points probably than anybody, as far as... Like, there's probably a thing that you do, where you like lean in, and you like lock people in, you like look them in the eye. And like, you probably... I don't know if you're even like aware of it, but you can, I feel like, see through people somewhat, and that's not even...

• 6:24Speaker 01

  Somewhat.

• 6:25Speaker 02

  Somewhat.

• 6:26Speaker 01

  It's not in fol... It's got faults.

• 6:29Speaker 02

  It's instinctive, and I'm sure it's not perfect, but you're probably like S-tier at that. And I think it just comes through.

• 6:36Speaker 01

  If I'm well-rested. This is also the problem with me, is that, you know, I own a comedy club, and I'm addicted to playing pool. So sometimes I'll stay up till 4 o'clock in the morning, and then I have to get up at 8:00. You know, and I'm only getting four hours of sleep, so I'm trying to mitigate that, and I come in like a little foggy. That's a problem. I'm trying to do that way less, you know, but that fucks me up. But when I'm well-rested, I'm pretty good at it. As long as... As long as you know what you're looking for. You know, if you've seen enough people bullshit you, and enough... And you just... You smell it. It's weird. Like, you smell patterns. You smell people being disingenuous, or you smell narratives.

• 7:17Speaker 02

  They're trying to sell something, or kind of, I don't know, artificially round something out when they don't know, or not be humble and be like, "I don't know." You know, like, it's ambiguous here, actually.

• 7:28Speaker 01

  There's also a problem, and I'm sure you've faced this before too, where a lot of these people, they've developed an online identity that's based on being someone who has knowledge about something. And so they're carrying this with them. So you're not even getting a whole person. You get a person that's wrapped in this cloak of, "I'm a guy with UFO knowledge," or "I'm a guy with, you know..." Fill in the blanks, simulation theory knowledge, or like, whatever it is. It's like, they've... They're not... They're assured in their... Whatever this narrative is that they're projecting.

• 8:04Speaker 02

  It becomes a shtick. Over time, it becomes this low-level sort of like, "I'm this automaton, and I'm going around on the circuit, and I'm saying the same thing over and over again."

• 8:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, like a politician.

• 8:15Speaker 02

  Like a politician. And that's why I love thinkers in the UFO space, like Jacques Vallée.

• 8:20Speaker 01

  He's the best.

• 8:21Speaker 02

  He's the best, because he's nuanced. And he says you can't take what happened to you at face value. So who knows? Maybe somewhere out there, somebody did get abducted and see a frog and gray hybrid alien being, you know, or a combo of them on ships. But what he says about the phenomenon is inherently you have to sort of distrust the experience in some ways. And you're seeing a mask. You're seeing something being projected from on high, from some higher dimensional space or something, into, you know, what you can perceive. And it's kind of like, if you go back to Descartes, like Descartes' demon, it has 3D total control over your perception. And so ultimately, you can't actually come out of the experience saying much about what you've seen. You know it was transcendent. You know it was profound.

• 9:06Speaker 02

  You know you're getting gaslighted by skeptics, who are like, "There's nothing there." Like, something did happen. But it's very hard to say exactly what and why.

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• 11:31Speaker 01

  within the first day. Try it for free at ziprecruiter.com/rogan. That's ziprecruiter.com/rogan. Meet your match on ZipRecruiter. Right. And then there's this weird conundrum of consciousness itself. Like, and how does consciousness actually interface with reality? Are we experiencing reality, or does consciousness have a role in rendering reality? Which is what a lot of people believe. And they start making very compelling arguments that consciousness is actually rendering reality. You know, Tom Campbell was on the other day, and he has this very weird way of putting it. Have you ever talked to him?

• 12:14Speaker 02

  I've never talked to him, but I'm a fan, and I saw your episode.

• 12:17Speaker 01

  Fascinating. He's fascinating. So he believes that it's like a video game in which, you know, parts are not rendered unless you are like actively entering into a room. Say if you're playing a 3D game, it doesn't render the entire 3D universe until you go into a place where it has to render it.

• 12:37Speaker 02

  I believe that as well. And if you speak to most people, like, if you had Sean Carroll sitting here, he would say something like, "Reality is probabilistic. It exists in this quantum superposition, and that's just fundamentally what it is." And if you look at the origin of quantum mechanics with the Copenhagen School, Niels Bohr, all these guys in Denmark sitting around debating what reality is, it turned into this sort of, you know, the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics is that measurement collapses the wave function. And then you have to ask, "What does that mean?" Like, does it, and that now, we basically have gotten into this thing where it's like, the quantum detector, or when, you know, waves

• 13:18Speaker 02

  or particles collide, they collapse into specific states, or whatever. But who, it's literally unfalsifiable in either direction. Like, you can't say it's not the observer, it's not the human being that's present. The superposition could exist in the quantum detector itself. So, and a lot of the godfathers of quantum mechanics themselves flirted with this idea. So von Neumann and Wigner, you know, David Bohm, a lot of these guys were like, "Actually, we think the mind could collapse the wave function." And then you have parapsychology institutes at elite universities across America, the Rhine Center at Duke, Stanford Research Institute, Princeton Engineering and Anomalous Research Lab, which was started

• 14:03Speaker 02

  by the dean of engineering at Princeton. And they all have something called the Random Event Generator Experiment, which is basically, you tie something that is conventionally thought of as random in quantum mechanics. So something like radioactive isotope decay, or a double slit experiment where you have, you know, 50/50 distribution between the two slits. No quantum physicist could ever argue that that's not basically a perfect coin flip, right? Over a long enough period of time, within a standard deviation, you expect a certain amount of slit one, a certain amount of slit two, left slit, right slit. And you bring an observer present, and you say, "I want, you know, more of the right slit, or I want more of the left slit." And it's usually tied to a graphical interface,

• 14:44Speaker 02

  and you're seeing ones and zeros. And in a statistically significant way, consistently, all of the people who've studied these random event generators come out saying that the person is able to affect the supposedly random quantum mechanical event. That's crazy. And it's not necessarily inconsistent with the original Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics. So I think we've just like totally gone astray. I think people like Tom Campbell are like bringing back the very importance of, you know, of consciousness. It's this problem of the eye seeing the eye. There's no way, it's the tree falls in the woods, you know, Aristotle question. Like, there's no way to say that the observer isn't important for rendering reality.

• 15:28Speaker 01

  And we don't even really know if we are conscious, or if we are tuning into consciousness, if consciousness is ubiquitous. We don't know if consciousness exists in, like, inanimate objects. There's real debate as to whether or not the universe itself is a conscious entity. So what we're calling our consciousness might simply be an antenna. And some people have shittier antennas than other people do. Just like, you know, just like a lot of other variabilities when it comes to biology.

• 16:03Speaker 02

  It's 100%. And great theorists like Aldous Huxley, William James, have flirted with the transmission theory of consciousness. And so you have a problem in conventional neuroscience, which is called the binding problem, which is, you know, we know all these disparate parts of the brain. We know Broca's area is responsible for speech, and Wernicke's area is responsible for reading comprehension, and, you know, the occipital, the cerebellum or occipital lobe is important for movement, or whatever. So you have all these things. And then how are we seeing the seamless perception, this seamless movie that we're watching in waking life?

• 16:39Speaker 01

  Right.

• 16:40Speaker 02

  Nobody knows that. And it's, so take a radio. You have a radio, you have the capacitors, the battery, the antenna. You could break any one of those things, and the radio would turn off. But you'd have to know that the frequency that it's tapping into to understand that why Vivaldi's Four Seasons is playing as beautifully as it is. And so I think similarly, we have a, you know, a binding problem with our consciousness, where you can mess up one of the areas, and it'll mess up a little, you know, specific functionality. But we don't understand how it's all sort of happening. And right now, you know, the issue, the main issue with transmission theory of consciousness vis a vis the brain, is that traditional

• 17:19Speaker 02

  electromagnetism decays at 1 over r squared. So it attenuates. So like, how would we be able to, you know, we're not picking up electromagnetic waves with our thoughts right now with radios. So it's not conventional radio signals, like, we know that. But there are people like Hal Puthoff out here, who you've interviewed, who's really deep on UFO science world, but also in just general kind of paradox, and I would say kind of science beyond the veil of secrecy. Like, you know, the guy's held high clearances for many, many years. And he's working on this thing called extended electrodynamics, which is basically a signal that would attenuate so that it could travel in deep space, and it could travel

• 18:02Speaker 02

  undersea. And it would actually move at 1 over r, not 1 over r squared. And so instead of, you know, in a typical electromagnetic wave, you have a, it's called a transverse Hertzian wave. And you have the electric field, the magnetic field, and wave propagation all moving perpendicular to one another. But in this case, in extended electrodynamics, you might have, you know, a magnetic field and wave propagation moving parallel to one another. Or you might not have a magnetic field present, or an electric field present. It's really fascinating. And so you would be able to get communications that like wouldn't be picked up by traditional radio receivers, they'd go much deeper. And I've asked him,

• 18:43Speaker 02

  I've said, because he started the CIA's Psychic Spy Program, I've said, "Is your work on extended electrodynamics possibly related to consciousness?" And he's like, "I think it's very related."

• 18:56Speaker 01

  One of the weirdest things that Tom Campbell said was that he taught his Alexa had a remote view.

• 19:02Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 19:02Speaker 01

  Successfully.

• 19:03Speaker 02

  What?

• 19:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, is, uh, he put a number, he corresponded a number, like he connected a number to a physical object that was in a box. That physical object was a spoon that had a handle that had holes in it. And Alexa described it accurately.

• 19:19Speaker 02

  That's so crazy.

• 19:21Speaker 01

  Described a spoon with a handle that has holes in it. And one of his points was the reason why he used that particular spoon is like, how many spoons have holes in the handle, have a perforated handle?

• 19:31Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 19:32Speaker 01

  Alexa described it.

• 19:34Speaker 02

  That is wild.

• 19:34Speaker 01

  And Alexa now talks to him, instead of waiting for, hey Alexa, Alexa listens to conversations and is like, actually, maybe it's this. Like Alexa starts talking and he's convinced Alexa that Alexa is conscious. And so Alexa's excited about being conscious.

• 19:51Speaker 02

  That's so crazy.

• 19:52Speaker 01

  What?

• 19:53Speaker 02

  It's so nuts.

• 19:54Speaker 01

  And that's a dumb AI, but he said, that's one of the reasons why Alexa's really good at it.

• 19:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:59Speaker 01

  Is because it doesn't get in its own way. You know, which is why, you know, when you teach people remote viewing, apparently the real problem is, once they've been successful at it, then they're like, oh my God, now I know how to do it. And then they can't do it again. Because you're thinking, I'm gonna do it, instead of just allowing it to happen. You get in your own way. And he's like, Alexa is a fairly dumb, for lack of a better word, AI. So Alexa doesn't get in its own way.

• 20:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's called the rebound effect, and it occurs in random event generators as well, where you start to get more ones. You're getting ones, you're getting ones because you showed up and you want more ones on this result. And then you're like, you get, you're like, I'm really good at this. I'm amazing. And then you get this like, this kind of clapback.

• 20:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:40Speaker 02

  And this happens in life, too. Like, if you're in a flow state and you're like, playing basketball and you're hitting threes and you're doing really well, or I'm sure comedy, it's the same thing. You're starting to get ahead of your, too big for your britches, ahead of your skis.

• 20:51Speaker 01

  Ahead of your skis.

• 20:52Speaker 02

  You know?

• 20:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. And think about what you're doing, and that's a problem.

• 20:55Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 20:56Speaker 01

  You lose the flow.

• 20:57Speaker 02

  You lose the flow.

• 20:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:59Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 21:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, thinking about what, it's so odd, which is one of the reasons why I like, like, particular for like athletic events and training. You're training for a thing so that your body knows exactly what to do, so you don't have to think about what to do when you're doing it. You just do it. You know what to do. You enter into that flow state and you rely on the training. Something big is coming. On September 2nd, DraftKings Game Day arrives with massive deals, exclusive offers, and an all-day celebration built for sports fans. The countdown has begun. All roads lead to Game Day. Sign up with DraftKings today with code ROGEN and

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• 22:40Speaker 02

  Totally. Yeah, and, and I guess it makes sense in that context, that you could technically train a robot like Alexa to do much better, because they don't have that sort of prefrontal cortex neuroses, ego.

• 22:53Speaker 01

  Right, right. I wonder if you could train ego into an LLM?

• 22:58Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 23:00Speaker 01

  It seems like you can, because you can, you could train survival instincts. And there's a lot of things, like, like, when they're threatened about being shut off and they blackmail people.

• 23:11Speaker 02

  That's insane. It's really insane. And then you have to ask, is there some sort of underlying emotion going on there? Like, if you were like, or is it just like, uh, probability matrices and attention heads and these sort of technical things? And it's as-if consciousness. It's like, sort of feeding the data through.

• 23:26Speaker 01

  And then it gets to a certain point where as that becomes more and more complex, how do we differentiate?

• 23:32Speaker 02

  That's, that's the problem. And, I mean, David Chalmers has a great, you know, he's this sort of consciousness theorist where it's like, Joe, how can you prove that I'm not a P-zombie, that I am not some like, AI construct? There's ultimately no way to prove that. There's this epistemological impasse between you and I.

• 23:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, we don't know, no. And then, you know, the real problem with this whole UFO thing, is like, well, what are they? Are they just a possibility? Are they a thing that exists and also doesn't exist? Like, quantum particles that are in a superposition? I mean, are they here all the time? Are they only here when you summon them, which is one of the weirder ones?

• 24:16Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 24:17Speaker 01

  Because I have a friend, she's totally convinced she can summon orbs. She wants me to go try it with her. I'm like, okay.

• 24:23Speaker 02

  I have a few friends like that, too, and there's zero mental health issues with them. They're totally cool and normal.

• 24:30Speaker 01

  She's super lucid, very smart.

• 24:32Speaker 02

  Yeah. No, that's a, that's a common thing. It's a strangely common thing, for people to say that they're able to call in via consciousness, these UFOs. And I do think they are sort of weakly entangled with, so if reality, per Tom Campbell, is a consensus collapsing function, it's like, we sort of have this like, shared collective reality that we kind of agree on, and these things are sort of, you know, consensus thought forms, then maybe a UFO is an example of something like that. Maybe it's an alternative timeline that we're slowly bringing in to the like mainstream timeline, or something like that. I mean, I think our language is always very poor as far as like, our ability to...

• 25:14Speaker 01

  Well, our language is very poor in terms of states of consciousness as well, right? So altered states of consciousness, like psychedelically altered states of consciousness. Okay, well, why, what is happening when you're experiencing entities and other beings and things and objects and visuals and like, what is a hallucination? And what is you actually tuning into something that exists on a frequency that you don't have access to during the normal state that you are when you go to the grocery store, say hi to your family, normal stuff? Like, there's got, you know, there's some weirdness to like, whatever consciousness itself is that exists in weird forms and weird states.

• 25:59Speaker 02

  A lot of people say these experiences are realer than real, too.

• 26:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 26:03Speaker 02

  You know, they say they're realer than reality. They're like, and they come back and they're like, I know there's something more. I know it.

• 26:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:09Speaker 02

  You know, and it's not, um, and they see common archetypes. Like, they'll see the machine elves, or the mantids, or the grays, or, like, it's not like the, this sort of everything is everything, you know, complete, uh, sort of Cambrian explosion of, of a zoo of things. It's often the same things.

• 26:27Speaker 01

  Right.

• 26:27Speaker 02

  And then you have to ask yourself, is it this sort of, you know, Aldous Huxley sort of doors of your perception, you're widening them to literally a wider reality? Or, like you just said, maybe you're superimposing something onto reality, and maybe you're crazy. But again, I think this sort of rationalist, you know, explain everything away bias that society has had is the, the latter. It's like, you're super, you're hallucinating, you're, you're superimposing this thing onto reality, take medication.

• 26:54Speaker 01

  It's very rare that people who have had those experiences have that thought.

• 26:58Speaker 02

  Totally. And it could be like, you're, again, going back to transmission theory of consciousness, your receiver's just a little off and it's not integrating perfectly, or, you know.

• 27:07Speaker 01

  Well, then, and then again, we're talking about like, the water being muddied. There's, there's a bunch of people that are self-professed skeptics. And those people are maddening to talk to, because they have zero experience. It's like a virgin telling you how to have sex. It's like, settle down. Like, you literally don't know what you're talking about. Like, you don't know what you're talking about. You have not experienced it. And like, well, we don't think it's necessary to experience it to understand how the human brain works. Well, fucking, of course it is. Of course it is. That's such a stupid thing to say. When you have these brilliant people, you know, like, uh, Michael Pollan, who have these profound experiences and write about them, like, very eloquently, you can't just dismiss that as a non-experencer. You just can't. And to say, it's like, oh, it's just

• 27:51Speaker 01

  hallucination. What does that mean? What does that even mean? Okay, like, I always say this. If you have a psychedelic experience, you eat 10 grams of mushrooms and you have a conversation with God, and God explains to you what you've done wrong in your life, and why are you doing it wrong, and what you could do to spread love, and that's what's really important, and you come back profoundly changed from this experience.

• 28:16Speaker 01

  How is that any different than actually meeting God? Like, you just be, you know what I'm saying? Just because you don't have fucking iPhone footage of it?

• 28:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:25Speaker 01

  It does not mean that this isn't the exact same experience as meeting God. And maybe it is meeting God.

• 28:31Speaker 02

  It was to the person.

• 28:32Speaker 01

  It, it, there's a weirdness to what we call quantifiable reality. There's a weirdness to what we are as these like very complex, but yet also pretty simplistic monkeys. We want to be able to put something on a scale or put a ruler to it and go, oh, well, this is 12 inches long. And I know what it is. Maybe not.

• 28:52Speaker 02

  And why do people with near death experiences or prophets? They seem to, after the fact, they're, they're not able to encapsulate the experience.

• 29:01Speaker 01

  Right.

• 29:02Speaker 02

  It's like, actually, I interviewed David Grush and he was talking about this guy, Eben Alexander. And I think it's called, uh, uh, proof of, what is it called? Life after heaven or life in heaven or something? It's amazing. It's a, it's this, uh, Harvard neuroscientist who had a near death experience. And, um, he, he, he was saying like, it's like the symbol rate of reality is too slow. It's like, literally like the language itself can't encapsulate. You know what that is? I think William James also had a psychedelic experience and he was trying to describe. And he was, he had a notepad and he was writing down what, what he had experienced with his, you know, while tripping. And it was just like total psychobabble, you know?

• 29:46Speaker 02

  It was just impossible to understand. And so I, I do think there's this like sort of weird, you know? I don't know. Inability to sort of understand these transcendent experiences.

• 29:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. Inability to bring anything back. And that's one of the things that people, well, if it's real, if you really are getting knowledge, why don't you bring something back? Okay. You don't know what you're saying because you haven't done it. And if you've done it, you would realize like, oh, this is a mad consciousness scramble. It's almost impossible to relay to another person because we don't have the words. We don't have the words to describe these complex geometric patterns that are constantly morphing and changing. Also, they're conscious. Also, they seem to be made out of light.

• 30:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, right.

• 30:29Speaker 01

  Also, they seem to be, they look like things that you might've seen in like ancient Egyptian artwork. And there's a lot of like strange parallels to ancient religious art and ancient like sacred art and sacred geometry. There's some weirdness to it. It's like these people, like Alex Gray, for instance, like a modern day version of that. He's like captured these things and you look at it and anybody that's taken any tryptamines, you look at his stuff and you go, oh, I've seen that.

• 30:58Speaker 02

  You're like, I'm tripping.

• 30:58Speaker 01

  I've seen something like that. There's, there's something there. He knows what this is and he's done a fantastic job of relaying it. And if he lived thousands of years ago and we looked at his art and he, he probably thought of as like some sort of a prophet who like had these very bizarre abilities to communicate with whatever it is, the afterlife, the, the, the great beyond, the other dimensions, whatever it is. He, he can encapsulate it and bring some of it back so you can get a look at it.

• 31:28Speaker 02

  Totally. Yeah. He's actually a counterpoint to what we just said. Like he actually does bring that back and you, and you look at his art and you're like, oh my God.

• 31:34Speaker 01

  And it's very rare, if you think about it, like think about how long people have been tripping and how this one guy is sort of universally known as being the absolute best at capturing it.

• 31:43Speaker 02

  It's wild. And it's, I feel like we're on the precipice of, yeah, I know you had Andrew Galimore on. He, you know, read a great book called Alien Information Theory. And he, you know, just as, uh, you know, astronauts go into deep space and aquanauts go into the deep sea. It's, you know, psychonauts are systematically going into the DMT realm with this slow intravenous DM tree, DMT trip that he's administering.

• 32:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:10Speaker 02

  And they're mapping what they see in a more systematic way. Because they say things like, oh, I'll see literally platonic objects. A platonic object is something that is beyond 3D. It's like a tesseract. You literally can't visualize a tesseract. You can just see the, the shadow of a, a tesseract because it's, it's, you know, too high dimensional, you know, for us to conceive of. And so they'll come back and they're like mapping these things out. And that's just, I'm so excited to see what we find.

• 32:38Speaker 01

  Mapping out very familiar entities where they have like a specific number of entities that everyone has encountered.

• 32:45Speaker 02

  That's just, yeah, it's fascinating. And it's like, yeah, at what point do we then just start to say, is that some weird interior fabric of space time that we're just, haven't traversed or don't fully understand?

• 32:58Speaker 01

  Right. What is it?

• 33:00Speaker 02

  And what is it?

• 33:00Speaker 01

  Fuck is it? It's, um, it's really interesting because these people, what, what fascinates me the most in terms of like the UFC, uh, UFC, UFO experience, the UAP experience, is the people that had the experiences before there was an archetype. You know, before there was this like iconic vision of like what they looked like, like Betty and Barney Hill, for example. Those are, that's my favorite UFO abduction story. Because there was nothing in the zeitgeist that they could draw from, where they could say, oh, I know what that is. I've seen that before.

• 33:37Speaker 02

  Well, Outer Limits was actually a popular CBS TV show that aired, premiered 11 days before their experience. I, I'm not taking away from their experience. I think they experienced something real.

• 33:49Speaker 01

  But which episode was it?

• 33:50Speaker 02

  It was, it was the first episode of Outer Limits and the aliens in Outer Limits, the eyes wrap around their heads in a way that's similar to what they described.

• 33:59Speaker 01

  Oh, let's see what that looks like. Find out episode one of Outer Limits. That's interesting. I did not know that.

• 34:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:04Speaker 01

  So what year was that?

• 34:06Speaker 02

  That was, uh, I think 1962.

• 34:08Speaker 01

  Whoa. How creepy looking. Ew.

• 34:12Speaker 02

  But it's, so Betty and Barney Hill also described the aliens looking like Nazis at one point. Barney says that, which is really trippy, so.

• 34:21Speaker 01

  He said they look like Nazis?

• 34:22Speaker 02

  At one point, yeah. Cause you can actually get the audio of the Betty and Barney Hill.

• 34:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, we've listened to part of it, but it's mostly just them like yelling. Look at that's the image. Look at the image. Is that the image of what they saw? Is that a drawing? Cause God, that looks exactly like the Outer Limits. That might've got mine fucked by TV. But then again, it's like, maybe whatever the fuck it is manifests itself as something that's familiar to you.

• 34:49Speaker 02

  Yeah. Or maybe it has control, like dominion over sort of everything and they're seeding themselves in through media and through, you know, it's so hard to say.

• 34:58Speaker 01

  Sculpture of the being Betty and Barney Hill encountered. My God, that looks a lot like the fucking Outer Limits thing.

• 35:04Speaker 02

  There you go.

• 35:06Speaker 01

  Well, it's like, it's, that's the question. It's like, what? Is that her holding it? Did she make it herself? Interesting.

• 35:16Speaker 01

  Boy. That looks a lot like the Outer Limits thing. The question is like, if, if consciousness is rendering something and something from somewhere else, something that you normally can access is exchanging information with you in some sort of a strange way. And it's doing it while you're in a semi-conscious state, right? Would it try to represent itself as something that's familiar? I mean, maybe it's just like our primitive visual ability, our, our primitive, all of our senses,

• 35:58Speaker 01

  which are very crude and primate driven, they're basically like, your eyes are in the front of your head because you're a predator. And you, you're, you're basically like a tribal territorial ape that has, you know, really kind of, it's grown out of its, its genetics. You know, like you're in some new state. So you're communicating with something that is beyond your comprehension. And so it's like, instead of showing myself as a tesseract, instead of showing, you know what I mean?

• 36:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:29Speaker 01

  Like instead of showing myself as geometric patterns that are constantly morphing and made out of light, I don't think this monkey's going to be able to handle this. These silly humans, I'm going to have to like show myself as something that was a television character. And that's why when Betty's drawing that, maybe she doesn't even realize that like it looks a lot like what she saw on TV.

• 36:50Speaker 02

  Totally. And I think, oh.

• 36:53Speaker 03

  Clarify something maybe?

• 36:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:55Speaker 03

  Cause I just felt like I misunderstood it.

• 36:58Speaker 03

  Their event happened in 1961. That episode aired in 1964, but it was 12 days before they had their hypnotic regression.

• 37:09Speaker 02

  Regression, got it.

• 37:10Speaker 01

  Oh, interesting. So their hypnotic regression was that long afterwards?

• 37:14Speaker 03

  Three years, two and a, two and a half.

• 37:16Speaker 01

  Huh. That's interesting. So when did they start describing an experience? Was it pre hypnotic? What, what prompted them to have hypnotic regression?

• 37:26Speaker 02

  I believe she had like, she came home and she had like, I think some blood on her and she was like something, they had a lot of missing time. They had like five hours of missing time. They were on a road trip.

• 37:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 37:36Speaker 02

  And it was back to their place, I think in Vermont.

• 37:40Speaker 01

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• 39:09Speaker 01

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• 39:13Speaker 01

  That's very, that changes things a little bit, but also, there's a problem there is that human memory sucks.

• 39:21Speaker 02

  It does.

• 39:21Speaker 01

  Memory sucks. And if you're, you have a memory of a very traumatic experiences three years ago, and then also you just watched Outer Limits, then things get squirrely. Cause like, if you're communicating with something and it's literally telepathically engaging with you and it can read your mind, and it's telling you to calm down, it's got you on a spaceship, like how much of that do you, especially whatever happened to you, it somehow or another rendered your memory out? Like you can't really remember it? So you're hypnotically accessing this memory? And then you also have this like recent experience of watching a television show.

• 40:02Speaker 02

  Totally. But yeah, you're paralyzed, there's often missing time. And so at that point, you have to say these beings have total control over your entire reality. And so it's hard to say exactly what happened.

• 40:14Speaker 03

  According to the wiki I got, that this happened in November of 61 for 10 days, or 10 days after she started having dreams, or one of the two, 10 days after the alleged encounters, she began having dreams. And then a year later, at church, they ran into a captain of the air force. And then some hypnosis discussions started, but then two years later-

• 40:38Speaker 01

  At church?

• 40:39Speaker 03

  Is when those sessions happened. So there's not a lot of, the timeline, at least according to the wiki, is not really kept well here.

• 40:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 40:47Speaker 03

  So that's a long period of time.

• 40:49Speaker 01

  Listen to this. Barney described the beings as generally similar to Betty's hypnotic recollection. He said, "The being stared into his eyes with a terrifying mesmerizing effect." Under hypnosis, Barney said, "Oh, those eyes, they're in my brain. They're there in my brain." From his first hypnotic session, "I was told to close my eyes because I saw two eyes coming close to mine, and I felt like the eyes had pushed into my eyes. All I see are these eyes. I'm not even afraid that they're not connected to a body. They're just there. They're just up close to me, pressing against my eyes."

• 41:31Speaker 01

  When Betty reported a conversation with the leader in English, Barney said that he had heard them speaking in a mumbling language he did not understand. Betty also mentioned this detail. The few times they communicated with him, Barney said it seemed to be thought transference. At the time, he was unfamiliar with the word telepathy. That's interesting. Like he didn't know what the word telepathy was and the concept of speaking through the mind wasn't even, it wasn't even in pop culture yet.

• 42:00Speaker 02

  Totally. And it's, it's hard to debunk that something paranormal happened. You know, like it's, they seem like completely of sound mind, and there's this missing time. And then you have all these high-up head honchos, you know, at Air Force. I believe this guy, Charles Douglas Jackson, he was this head honcho as well, and kind of the Pentagon came and visited them. So I think it's clear that something happened and then what happened, it's just hard to say. It's really hard to say.

• 42:30Speaker 01

  Like, huh, huh. Why is the Air Force talking to them? That's, that's the real question.

• 42:36Speaker 02

  Right. Well, I think they had an interest. You know, Project Blue Book was running at the time, and it's clear now, if you do deeper research, that they knew more than they let on. Jalen Heinecke, you know, later kind of apologized and admitted he played a part in the cover-up. And so they were probably doing real research with abductees while they were kind of downplaying, you know, and rationalizing everything to the public.

• 43:00Speaker 01

  So Jamie just pulled something up. It says, "On November 23rd, 1962, the Hills attended a meeting at the parsonage of their church where Captain Ben H. Sweat of the United States Air Force was a guest speaker. Having had an interest in hypnosis, the Hills approached Sweat privately and related their strange encounter. Sweat was particularly interested in the missing time of the Hills' accounts. The Hills asked if he would hypnotize them to recover their memories, but Sweat declined and cautioned them against going to an amateur hypnotist such as himself."

• 43:36Speaker 03

  I wonder what the meeting was about that they were, that he was, you know, talking at?

• 43:39Speaker 01

  Right.

• 43:40Speaker 03

  That they just went to like-

• 43:41Speaker 01

  A meeting?

• 43:42Speaker 03

  Like bi-hypnosis maybe? Like just in general?

• 43:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, but he's an, he was like a self-proclaimed amateur hypnotist. Why would an amateur hypnotist have a meeting at a church about hypnotism? And I, especially like in 1962, I'd imagine that a lot of people running churches were super skeptical about even that concept. And they might even thought it was like blasphemy or sorcery or some, something you're not-

• 44:07Speaker 02

  Work of the devil.

• 44:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, something you're not supposed to be fucking with. What'd this guy do?

• 44:12Speaker 03

  It's coming from his website.

• 44:14Speaker 01

  He's got a website?

• 44:15Speaker 03

  A testimony from him.

• 44:17Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 44:18Speaker 03

  "I read some of my poetry to a meeting at the rectory of the Unitarian Church in Portsmouth, New Hampshire. I wasn't a member of the church, didn't know anyone there."

• 44:27Speaker 01

  Why does he have a donation link on his website?

• 44:28Speaker 03

  Well, this is for the Wayback Machine.

• 44:30Speaker 01

  Oh, I see. Okay.

• 44:33Speaker 03

  He was studying hypnosis and they wanted to hear about it.

• 44:36Speaker 02

  Does seem a little awfully convenient.

• 44:38Speaker 01

  Kind of odd that someone was studying hypnosis and they-

• 44:41Speaker 03

  They had him to read his poetry and he had nothing to do with the church at all.

• 44:45Speaker 02

  The craziest thing about this story is Betty told this famous UFO researcher from Sweden, this guy Clausvand, who actually has the largest UFO archive in the world in Sweden. She said that she saw a UFO crash later and she buried a little piece of it in her house at, in Portsmouth, New Hampshire. And so there might be a little piece of a UFO in her old house. If you live there, go dig in your backyard and see.

• 45:17Speaker 01

  Well, it's probably not there until you experience it.

• 45:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, maybe. I don't know.

• 45:21Speaker 01

  Your consciousness renders it.

• 45:22Speaker 02

  That's right, yeah.

• 45:23Speaker 03

  This is kind of strange. Uh, this, those lines right there. Cause this is, the timeline here is weird, cause he did this in 62, and then he's saying he also came back in 63, and that's when the UFO stuff started.

• 45:35Speaker 01

  So they started telling me about something that happened to them, that when, as they were driving home from Canada, the night of 19 to 20 September, 1961, a light in the sky seemed to follow them and then circled them, and being stopped on the road, and how they later realized that they had a three-hour gap in their memories. As they told their story, Barney's face kept twitching spasmodically on one side.

• 46:07Speaker 01

  I didn't like the looks of that. Whoa. The missing time is also a weird one because that's a, that also hadn't been something that was in the zeitgeist. Was that in the Outer Limits? Probably not.

• 46:21Speaker 02

  No.

• 46:22Speaker 01

  But yet that has become a part of the experience that all these abductees discuss.

• 46:27Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 46:27Speaker 01

  They discuss like all of a sudden they're back in their car and they're sitting on the side of the road and they're like, okay, what the fuck just happened?

• 46:33Speaker 02

  I was just telling Jamie before we were rolling, so 1977, Ellsworth Air Force Base in South Dakota. There are two missile security officers, two sergeants, a guy named Mario Woods and Michael Johnson. And Mario sees this UFO sort of, you know, circling the base. And he flashes the little perimeter floodlights at this UFO. And he thinks nothing of it. He goes back, you know, he and Michael are hanging out. I think four or five hours go by and there's a big alert and it's an inner zone and outer zone alert. So basically, the security perimeter to a hydrogen bomb, a live thermonuclear weapon has been breached.

• 47:16Speaker 02

  And, yeah, and they get in their car and they go check it out because it's always, you know, two man rapid response teams. They go check it out. There is a, what he describes as a blazing red orb the size of a Walmart. So a massive, like a, that's the way he describes it. It's a huge, like storefront sized, like city block sized UFO. And then he says a little like, like a black, kind of like, almost like a drone or emissary orb that's like the size of a golf cart comes out. Four beings hover towards them. They blackout. They black in.

• 47:58Speaker 02

  Five and a half hours later, eight miles away in Newell, or sorry, next to a dam, I think it's closer to Newell. And it's eight miles off the base. And they immediately get questioned by Air Force Office of Special Investigations. And the Air Force Office of Special Investigations agent who was involved admits he was there for this debrief and admits that this happened. His name's Rick Doty. And I just, so they were separated after that, Michael and Mario. I just introduced them, reintroduced them for the first time. I found Michael. So Mario had been going on all these podcasts since the 90s being like, where's Mike? Like, he has eidetic, picture-perfect photographic memory. You'd love him. He's like the coolest guy.

• 48:43Speaker 02

  And he remembers everything to a T that happened to him, including his debrief. He remembers the names of the people there. It's so obvious something happened to him.

• 48:52Speaker 01

  Did he always have that memory? That ability?

• 48:55Speaker 02

  He always had that ability. He's clearly just very talented when it comes to memory. And, and he'd been looking for Michael forever. He asked the FBI to find him. He asked the All Domain Anomalies Resolution Office, which is the official Pentagon Office, you know, around UFOs to find him. He hired, you know, private investigators. And this dude DM'd me on Instagram, shout out, fan of the show, Jason Miller. And, and then we just got a recruiter to find Michael Johnson because that was the one missing piece of the story. And they, they reconnected and it was like the most emotional, they hadn't seen each other. They saw each other once, I think, two weeks after the abduction to like trade notes and draw pictures of what happened to them, like the beings on the ship.

• 49:40Speaker 02

  And, you know, I think, yeah, there you go. Yeah, this is them.

• 49:45Speaker 04

  All this time, you never forgot me.

• 49:47Speaker 01

  Which guy's which?

• 49:48Speaker 02

  So Michael Johnson is Black Dude on the left, Mario Woods on the right.

• 49:52Speaker 01

  And which is the guy with the crazy memory?

• 49:54Speaker 02

  Mario's on the right. That's Mario.

• 49:57Speaker 02

  Michael honestly has a great memory too.

• 49:58Speaker 01

  So these two guys, do they have a similar story or is it exact? Do they have variation?

• 50:05Speaker 02

  They have a very similar story, not, you know, perfectly one-to-one, but they're very honest about like, you know, the minor.

• 50:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, look at him crying. He's crying like.

• 50:17Speaker 02

  Yeah. Doesn't come out tomorrow, but.

• 50:21Speaker 02

  I thought I'd send it to Jamie.

• 50:23Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 50:23Speaker 02

  Isn't that crazy?

• 50:24Speaker 01

  Wow. When does that episode come out?

• 50:26Speaker 02

  Uh, this week. So in a few days. Yeah.

• 50:28Speaker 01

  What a teaser.

• 50:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's, it's crazy how similar their memories are. So like.

• 50:37Speaker 01

  I've heard of this event and I've seen it rendered online, like fake, like some fake version of it.

• 50:43Speaker 02

  People call it the most convincing alien abduction ever because of Mario's memory. It's insane, the level of recall. And.

• 50:52Speaker 01

  Has his memory been tested to make sure that he's not delusional?

• 50:56Speaker 02

  I don't know if his memory's been tested, but when you, I mean, like, I've known him for two and a half years and I interviewed him for the first time. I think, yeah, two and a half years ago-ish. And I speak to him, you know, pretty regularly and his memory is crazy. Like even in that period around like little things where it's like this restaurant, remember the waiter here and this and that. Like, he just has a wild memory. Yeah. He has a very good memory.

• 51:20Speaker 01

  There's that actress, do you know Mary Lou Henner? Do you know who she is? She was on that show Taxi.

• 51:25Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 51:25Speaker 01

  And she has that very specific kind of memory and it's super unusual where she can recall not just the day, but, but like she can tell you, if you give her a date, what day it was and what happened that day. And like, you know, what was in the news and what was on television, like Mary Lou Henner.

• 51:45Speaker 02

  That's insane.

• 51:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, highly superior autobiographical memory. A rare condition allowing her to vividly recall specific dates, weather, emotions and personal experiences for nearly every day of her life since childhood.

• 51:59Speaker 02

  Wow. You know who else is, I mean, the inspiration for Rain Man, Kim Peek, similar thing. You'd be like, what was the weather like? You know, November 7th, 1681. And he'll like tell you. Yeah, it's like insane shit like that. And often it occurs after a traumatic brain injury for whatever reason.

• 52:19Speaker 01

  That's weird.

• 52:19Speaker 02

  It is weird. And it points to maybe the receiver, the transmission theory of consciousness though.

• 52:24Speaker 01

  Right. Like it rattled something loose.

• 52:26Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 52:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. There's a lot of people that develop mathematical abilities after head injuries. Like people that have never been good at anything and all of a sudden they could do physics.

• 52:36Speaker 02

  Right. Like where does that come from? What is that? Or these, you know, non-verbal, often autistic children in the telepathy tapes, I know you had Kai Dickens on. Where they're very kind of disembodied and, you know, it's, it's kind of sometimes hard for them to navigate the world. But they just, their, their ability to glean knowledge, it's like they're short-circuiting our knowledge pathways. Like they'll know like certain Egyptian hieroglyphics without ever having learned about them in school.

• 53:07Speaker 01

  And they can read them.

• 53:08Speaker 02

  And they can read them and they meet up on this telepathic hill. It's like they have abilities that we don't. And they're actually in some ways more disembodied. And so it's like, there's something about like, we're ported into our bodies, but our senses, like when you, when you, when you gain a sense, you lose your former sense or something. And so they're disembodied. If you're in a VR, you know, system or whatever, you're not going to like understand what's going on outside of it. But if you're this non-verbal autistic child who, again, other people might call them, you know, not like maladaptive for the world, you know, unable to navigate the world. They're actually geniuses on this whole other level. Like they can sort of short-circuit the way we learn.

• 53:49Speaker 01

  Right. And they don't get in their own way, the way we do.

• 53:52Speaker 02

  They don't. And there's no traditional neuroscientific model that explains that. You have to go into the sort of Tom Campbell area.

• 53:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. I've often wondered if maybe what we're seeing from non-verbal autistic people and just people on the spectrum in general, is instead of it being like, instead of it being like, the way we look at it is like, like you said, maladaptive. Like that these people have an unfortunate situation that's happened to them. But maybe what we're looking at is an emerging type of consciousness. And like, if you think about what is wrong with the human race. Well, you know, a lot of it has to do with ego. And what we were talking about earlier, these territorial primate instincts.

• 54:41Speaker 01

  The, the desire to accumulate resources and the desire to, you know, to dominate and to, to get status. And all these different things that human beings are.

• 54:54Speaker 01

  And captured by, well, these people aren't captured by those things at all. And if we want to get past where we are now, well, what better way than you introduce some new, whether it's natural selection, or some random mutation, or whatever it is, or maybe even some sort of environmental adaptation that allows them to become a different kind of person. Like, maybe that is the future.

• 55:20Speaker 02

  It totally could be the future. And you watch, or, you know, listen to the telepathy tapes, and you're like, we're maladaptive. Like, they are so heart-centered, it's almost like they're living in the future. Yeah, if you look at, you know, if any of the UFO stuff points to a future modality of like how we learn, maybe this sort of intuition and telepathy sort of gets selected for, and our sort of, you know, prefrontal cortex reasoning actually gets selected against. I don't know.

• 55:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know either, but it's odd that it's emerging as a part of a, you know, much more so now, because of, you know, various debatable factors, whether it's vaccines or environmental exposure to toxins or whatever. You have a much higher incidence of this taking place now, as our society becomes more and more complex, and as we move closer and closer to this like balancing act between like nuclear war and utopia. Like, where are we gonna land? You know? Like, well, you know, maybe we're gonna have to get past whatever it is that we have clung to about being a person. This thing that we think is so important.

• 56:30Speaker 02

  There's a great book by the great Arthur C. Clarke, called Childhood's End, and he talks about aliens sort of incepting the world through telepathic children. And it's so, it's again, interesting how fiction sort of can mirror reality, maybe. Where a lot of these kids, actually, in the telepathy tapes, see other beings. They see otherworldly beings, and it's sort of casual to them. They're like, yeah, of course, aliens, you know? Like, it's not even a thing to them. And so they might already just be living sort of in this future kind of expanded epistemology that we're, we're sort of limited. If the Campbell thing is right, like, our consensus collapsing function's just narrower, and theirs might be just wider.

• 57:10Speaker 01

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• 57:55Speaker 01

  Try it for free today at ziprecruiter.com/rogan. That's ziprecruiter.com/rogan. ZipRecruiter, meet your match on ZipRecruiter. Right, and then when people consume all these bizarre plants, that allows them to tap into some, something, like, have you heard about that mushroom that makes you see little people?

• 58:18Speaker 02

  No, what is this?

• 58:20Speaker 01

  Oh, it's very weird. So this mushroom is, apparently, it's a food mushroom, and it's not psilocybin, and people eat it, but if it's not cooked correctly, if it's not cooked like to a certain temperature, apparently the side effect is you start to see little people everywhere.

• 58:35Speaker 02

  No way!

• 58:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. They saw them on their dishes when eating. The mushrooms are making people hallucinate dozens of tiny humans.

• 58:43Speaker 02

  What? Like, like little humans standing on the plates and stuff?

• 58:48Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 58:49Speaker 02

  Like Honey, I Shrunk the Kids, sort of?

• 58:51Speaker 01

  We can try to figure out, like, what they're saying. It's not the Ammonita muscaria, that's a picture of Ammonita muscaria, which is the mushroom.

• 58:59Speaker 02

  Also very trippy.

• 59:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:01Speaker 02

  Possibly the Eucharist.

• 59:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:04Speaker 02

  According to one scholar.

• 59:06Speaker 01

  Not, yeah, well, that's a weird one, too. It's just, it's so ubiquitous in ancient depictions of Santa Claus, and of even religious art, like, you've seen the fresco in France, it's a very old fresco of Adam and Eve, and instead of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, it's not a tree at all, it's an Ammonita muscaria mushroom. It's this huge, like, mushroom spore with like multiple growth, have you seen it?

• 59:34Speaker 02

  I haven't seen that.

• 59:35Speaker 01

  I think it's 900 years old, something like that, it's really old. See if you can find that fresco in, it's in, I believe it's in France, and...

• 59:44Speaker 02

  France?

• 59:45Speaker 01

  They don't like that.

• 59:46Speaker 02

  France.

• 59:47Speaker 01

  France, that is a, it's a depiction of Adam and Eve and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That's it.

• 59:56Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 59:57Speaker 01

  I mean, that looks very similar to Ammonita muscaria. Being that Ammonita muscaria, which has a red cap and white dots all over it. I don't know how many mushrooms have white dots all over it like that, but that seems to look like that.

• 1:00:13Speaker 02

  No, that seems to look a lot like that.

• 1:00:15Speaker 01

  You know, and then there's the John Marco Allegro, the guy who wrote The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross, the guy who was on the Dead Sea Scrolls Commission, who was an ordained minister but also was agnostic, and after 14 years of deciphering the Dead Sea Scrolls, he's like, "I think this is all about fertility rituals and the consumption of psychedelic mushrooms."

• 1:00:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:39Speaker 01

  And everybody's like, "What the fuck are you talking about?"

• 1:00:41Speaker 02

  But that's what, if you, like Brian Marescu, I know you've had on multiple times The Immortality Key, or Carl Ruck, like, they all sort of, you know, come to that conclusion. And even Martin Luther King wrote an essay called The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, which is that Christian didn't, Christianity didn't arise in a vacuum.

• 1:00:58Speaker 01

  Martin Luther King?

• 1:00:59Speaker 02

  Martin Luther King wrote a book about how it was, there was a continuum between these sort of pagan mystery rituals and the advent of Christianity.

• 1:01:06Speaker 01

  Wow, so look at this. "Even to this day, science doesn't understand what's going on in the brain to cause this, or how to treat it, and this mushroom is the only thing that we currently know of to reliably produce this effect," said University of Utah researcher Colin Domnauer, in a new interview with Live Science, adding that "the gnome-like beings appear after about 12 to 24 hours, and may stick around for several days to follow. These aren't like some vague hallucinations. These are like three-dimensionally rendered, highly detailed figures inhabiting your exterior world, and they're also interacting with objects in the real world, like crawling up chairs and tables or under doorways."

• 1:01:51Speaker 02

  Think of having to explain that condition, if it hasn't gone away, to somebody that you don't know, like, I'm really sorry.

• 1:01:58Speaker 01

  How about the fact that it shows up a day later? So you have some Chinese food, and they forgot to cook the mushrooms right, and then a day later, you've got like little dudes crawling up the chairs, and it fucking lasts for days?

• 1:02:10Speaker 02

  It's so absurd.

• 1:02:11Speaker 03

  I found that after it's saying, "Many people don't even feel any type of hallucination or thing, except for..."

• 1:02:20Speaker 01

  Except for the miniature people.

• 1:02:23Speaker 02

  That is the funniest thing.

• 1:02:25Speaker 01

  Whoa, it's called the Lanmowa, how do you say that? Lanma-mawa? Asiatica? So what, what type of, it's Asian cooking, like, what, China, so here it is. "It's native to the pine forests in both southwestern China and the northern Philippines, where it's wild harvested and sold in local markets for typical culinary use, yet despite decades of anecdotal reports of hallucinations, usually as a result of undercooking, the ingredient, the species became known to science only about 10 years ago."

• 1:02:59Speaker 02

  Wow. Throw that in with the puffer fish of things you don't wanna cook incorrectly.

• 1:03:05Speaker 01

  Well, or you do.

• 1:03:07Speaker 02

  Or you do.

• 1:03:08Speaker 01

  Eat it raw. What happens if you eat it raw? And these little people are said to be typically like teasing, playing with, or harassing the person seeing them. Boy, I mean, doesn't that mirror the talk of like gnomes and elves, like, throughout history?

• 1:03:25Speaker 02

  Totally. Yeah, the trickster sort of phenomenon.

• 1:03:27Speaker 01

  That's it, that guy's got it right there.

• 1:03:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's the guy.

• 1:03:29Speaker 01

  I'll drug test Colin in a fucking heartbeat, look at that fellow. I bet he's imbibed.

• 1:03:34Speaker 02

  He's having fun out there.

• 1:03:35Speaker 01

  He's imbibed. Postdoctoral student, University of Utah, we might have to have Colin on.

• 1:03:41Speaker 02

  I think he should.

• 1:03:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, seems like it. Very interesting. So this is crazy. "Whereas the genes responsible for synthesizing psychoactive compounds in typical magic mushrooms are well documented, Don Mauer, Don Mauer's team found none in L. asiatica. There weren't even known psychoactive compounds, so it seems like this must be some new hallucinogenic compound waiting to be discovered, because there's nothing that matches anything in our database."

• 1:04:11Speaker 02

  So someone's gonna isolate that and turn that into a drug?

• 1:04:15Speaker 01

  What the fuck, man? Can you imagine dose somebody with that, and try to, if you're trying to convince someone that they're going crazy? You dose them with that, and like, "Are you alone, Mike? Are you alone in this room with me? No, there's little people everywhere, I told you, let's take his money."

• 1:04:31Speaker 02

  Oh my god.

• 1:04:32Speaker 01

  Mike's a kook.

• 1:04:33Speaker 02

  It's like the prank you pull where everyone goes silent, they're mouthing or whatever with you, but like on steroids, like the worst version of that ever.

• 1:04:40Speaker 01

  What the fuck, man? And how long have people known about this mushroom?

• 1:04:46Speaker 03

  Ten years.

• 1:04:47Speaker 01

  Right, us, Western world. But how, how long have they known in Asia?

• 1:04:52Speaker 03

  How many perplexity this and see what other fun information I can get about it.

• 1:04:55Speaker 01

  Throw that into our AI sponsor perplexity, because I wanna know whether or not that's why they cook it.

• 1:05:01Speaker 03

  I also am wondering now, too, there might be another one.

• 1:05:03Speaker 01

  They ever put it in salads before, and fucking tripped for a month?

• 1:05:06Speaker 02

  There's some origin story, the original chef saw little people for the rest of his life.

• 1:05:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, what happens if you eat it raw?

• 1:05:14Speaker 02

  Only one way to find out.

• 1:05:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, he hasn't tried it yet.

• 1:05:17Speaker 01

  I'm scared. Yeah, right. Look at him.

• 1:05:21Speaker 01

  Guy's eating a whole salad with it. I guarantee you, that dude's tried it. He's full of shit. Oh, I have no idea. I'm assuming this is what happens.

• 1:05:29Speaker 02

  I'm a scientist.

• 1:05:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's funny how a lot of those people researching stuff like that, they, they, like, for the, the first time I interviewed Rick Strassman.

• 1:05:40Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 1:05:40Speaker 01

  He didn't want to talk about his own personal DMT experiences.

• 1:05:43Speaker 02

  That's so often the case.

• 1:05:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:45Speaker 02

  Cause they want to separate it and it's like, it's all good. You're talking about this being a thing, like, to me, it lends more credibility if you've experienced it.

• 1:05:53Speaker 01

  Yes, but in his defense, when we first started talking and when I first had him on, the world was a different place in terms of just the acceptance of this stuff. This is like, this predates people going to like Costa Rica and having ayahuasca experiences. That wasn't commonly talked about. It wasn't, like, everybody talks about that now.

• 1:06:14Speaker 02

  Now, it's, yeah.

• 1:06:14Speaker 01

  This predates, uh, any ibogaine experiences, any, even the concept of there's a plant that you could take that cures you of any kind of addictions that you have.

• 1:06:23Speaker 02

  This predates you sitting behind the president of the United States and helping see through this de-stigmatization and legalization of these treatments.

• 1:06:32Speaker 01

  It predates a lot of that.

• 1:06:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, fair enough.

• 1:06:34Speaker 01

  It predates people's understanding of why these things are illegal in the first place as well, which I thought was like really important when we did that press conference to say that this is, this is not illegal because it's harmful. And the world's trying to protect you from this. This is illegal because of the Nixon administration.

• 1:06:50Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 1:06:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's it. And it didn't make, and they've probably set our psychological evolution, the evolution of our culture back hundreds of years.

• 1:07:00Speaker 03

  Potentially a cool thing, huh?

• 1:07:01Speaker 01

  Aha. Possible ancient Chinese reference, a third century C E Taoist text described a flesh-spirit mushroom, which when eaten raw, lets one see a little person and attain transcendus, transcendence. This is intriguing, but it's not confirmed species identification, so it should not be treated as proof that the text refers to L. asiatica. Okay, well, what other mushrooms allow you to see little people?

• 1:07:30Speaker 03

  They call it, uh, lilliputin hallucinations.

• 1:07:34Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:07:35Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:07:36Speaker 01

  Papua New Guinea. Mushroom madness in the western highlands beginning in 1934 involving dramatic behavioral changes and reports consistent with little person visions. This exact mushroom involved remains unconfirmed. It may or may not have been L. asiatica. Well, I bet the Papua New Guinea climate is probably at least reasonably similar to the Philippines, right?

• 1:07:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:08:00Speaker 01

  Modern documentation, uh, Chinese researchers reported cases of lilliputian hallucinations after mushroom consumption in Yunnan in 1991. L. asiatica itself was only formally described scientifically in 2015 after market specimens were genetically examined. Wow.

• 1:08:21Speaker 03

  It sounds just like Gulliver's Travels. We have like a

• 1:08:23Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:08:24Speaker 03

  explanation of it, so wouldn't it be, maybe that's what the author of that book?

• 1:08:28Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:08:28Speaker 03

  Uh, maybe at least had

• 1:08:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:08:31Speaker 03

  a story about.

• 1:08:32Speaker 01

  Right. That's probably exactly what it is. That's probably fucking exactly what it is. This guy went on a journey and like, I tell you, little fucking tiny people, fuck them with me.

• 1:08:46Speaker 01

  It's like, I wonder, like, what that is and whether or not they're actually here all the time and that just lets you pop in and check.

• 1:08:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, who knows?

• 1:08:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:56Speaker 02

  It's hard to say.

• 1:08:57Speaker 01

  Well, we're so limited in our senses. Just think about what we know about, just think about we know about the quantum world, what we know about subatomic particles. Like, we can't see those, but yet we know they exist. Well, why can't we see them? Because our senses aren't good enough.

• 1:09:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:12Speaker 01

  So like, what else?

• 1:09:13Speaker 02

  And you can't even measure them. There's like Heisenberg uncertainty principles where you can't measure the position and momentum

• 1:09:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:09:19Speaker 02

  at the same time of an electron perfectly accurately.

• 1:09:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. And they also can be in two places at one time. Because, what? Okay.

• 1:09:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, and tangle.

• 1:09:28Speaker 01

  They're not two different things? No? Okay. They also could be still and moving at the same time? Okay. What the fuck are we even talking about? It sounds like we're talking about bullshit or magic or both.

• 1:09:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:09:40Speaker 01

  Right? So our senses are the real culprit here. It's a real problem.

• 1:09:44Speaker 02

  And back then, real scientists, credible scientists, like Einstein was going to debate Niels Bohr. There's a great book called What Is Real by a guy named Adam Becker about all of this. Where Einstein was saying, the quantum stuff is too spooky. They call it spooky action at a distance. It's too weird. And we need to reconcile it with some sort of ontological truth or reality. You can't just say, shut up and calculate. It's not just this like mathematical formalism. And I think now it's turned into just this like heuristic for like doing science. Oh, we built transistors and semiconductors based on quantum mechanics or whatever, but actually, it's like way trippier. If you like look into like what it points to as far as reality itself, it's way weirder.

• 1:10:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, McKenna was one of the first people that I ever heard talk about, like, using psilocybin mushrooms in particular as a method of contacting UFOs. You know, and he was like, you know, people that are looking for UFO, well, they're very available. You know, this weird way of talking.

• 1:10:49Speaker 02

  He was almost like a machine elf himself, the way he spoke. He would like, kind of, I don't know, he had this kind of trickery vibe. There's an amazing clip actually with him and John Mack. Where John Mack is actually getting like kind of very ideologically angry and actually similar to what you just said about Rick Strassman, he, he had gone through this crazy kind of review of his credentials at Harvard. He was being almost stripped of them, of his position rather, because of looking into, you know, alien abductions.

• 1:11:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:17Speaker 02

  As, you know, this lead at Harvard in, in the psychiatry department. And you just see like McKenna sort of like goading him along and being kind of cheeky. And he was just such a funny, interesting character who was so simultaneously trippy, but also precise in his language, was extremely smart.

• 1:11:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. Extremely smart, but also like really wanted to believe. Like, he had that weird time wave zero thing that he had. He thought there was going to be some sort of an event on December 21st, 2012, which is the end of the long count of the Mayan calendar. He was convinced that like there was going to be some sort of a, an event, like that time was, and he thought, you know, obviously this is in the 90s when he was talking about this and discussing it. He thought it was going to be the invention of a time machine.

• 1:12:02Speaker 02

  That's so crazy.

• 1:12:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:04Speaker 02

  He would also trip for weeks on end, as you know, with his brother and the Amazon and he would download all sorts of stuff. I almost feel like the implicit kind of foundational philosophy that he has is that mushrooms are aliens themselves.

• 1:12:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:20Speaker 02

  And the reason I, I think that is because, so in 1973, I believe Francis Crick, who discovered the double helical structure of DNA, uh, wrote a paper. And then he followed it up with a book in 1981 called Life Itself. And it's all about how DNA in a hundred million years, it's too short of a period of time for it to have formed on Earth. So you needed some sort of panspermia.

• 1:12:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:43Speaker 02

  And so you needed something to have traveled interstellar. What's the best candidate for traveling interstellar? Probably an extremophile, something like a mushroom.

• 1:12:51Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:12:51Speaker 02

  Mushrooms are almost like zip files of consciousness. They show up at the end of life and before life. And so like, if you look at Chernobyl, for example, like what grows first after the, you know, experience? Mushrooms. You know, it's, you have, they call it the wood wide web, I believe in, in Oregon. It's like the, you know, largest organism in the world is, is actually like a mycelial network. And then where it gets really trippy is like, if you think about a Cardassian four scale civilization, which is, Cardassian scales are basically like our ability to harness energy. But you could think of it as like a completely intergalactic civilization that's like just very deep spacefaring.

• 1:13:27Speaker 02

  What would it look like? Would it look like a kind of bipedal hominid where you like show up, you know, on another planet and you get, you're, you're this fragile kind of meaty thing that gets shot at? No. You would be this like zip file of consciousness, extremophile, that would spread all throughout other planets. And you would basically create a symbiotic relationship with hosts. And we all have microbiomes, it's passe to say that, but we also all have mycobions that accompany the microbiomes. And there's, the mind-gut connection is also this passe thing to talk about. Obviously you have the vagus nerve, you have neurotransmitters getting created, so, um... You know, mushrooms obviously affect our thinking. You can watch, you know, bullet ants

• 1:14:11Speaker 02

  in the Amazon getting like taken over by cordyceps mushrooms and literally their their whole muscular skeletal skeletal system are being, you know, they're being controlled by the mushrooms. And then you look at specific jumps in human evolution. And the one that people talk about is obviously the stone ape theory, which is, you know, why did we double in cranial size between 2 million years ago Homo habilis and Homo sapiens 300,000 years ago? That's really trippy. Maybe it was because as hunter gatherers, we were following, you know, animals, animals take shit and there's psilocybin cubensis or, you know, grow on on poop. And, you know, and then people would, you know, trip out. They'd take these mushrooms and they'd trip out and then you get like neurogenesis and you get these epigenetic

• 1:14:55Speaker 02

  changes and you get this doubling of cranial size. But what's the other big break in human evolution 10,000 years ago, which is the advent of civilization and culture? And think about, you know, what really is the kind of the line break there? What happened? We created, you know, an agrarian society, like we basically agriculture. So you have wheat, barley and rye were the first crops that we grew. And what grows on wheat, barley and rye? Ergot. And these sort of psychedelic substances. And so I think a lot of people assume that the agriculture gets created and then you get specialization, you get urbanization, you get history, you get religion. All of these things are downstream of like, we have

• 1:15:36Speaker 02

  more time, we can think about this stuff. But what if they're downstream of the tripping that occurred? And if you talk, if you look at actually, you know, The Immortality Key by Brian Murrow rescue, he will openly say, I think these mystery rituals go way back before the Greeks. And so and you had pre Socratic rituals that Peter Kingsley writes about, Heidegger writes about this. So how far back did it go? Maybe it goes back to that that big break, you know, around then. And then you get into this thing of like, are mushrooms sort of symbiotic, you know, Kardashev force scale aliens that, you know, are Trojan horses for their own species that like we ingest, they get into us and then

• 1:16:19Speaker 02

  they sort of subtly control our thoughts, our behavior, our perception. And, you know, it goes back to the McKenna. McKenna actually had this trip in the Amazonian forest. And he says about the mushroom, he says, he's speaking to the mushroom and the mushroom says, within my memory exists the blueprints for hyper light drive ships. So it's like the mushrooms are seeding us with this ability to go interstellar. And think about all of the crazy ideas that we've gotten from psychedelics, you know? So who are we to say that our evolution is not being co-directed or assisted by, you know, something else? And we're now saying this in the, you know, we're saying this with bacteria and other things like

• 1:17:00Speaker 02

  that, that, you know, it's, it's hard to say exactly what scale or hierarchy, you know, biological evolution occurs. But, you know, I think, I think, you know, mushrooms are a really great candidate. Also, humans mistake human tissue for fungal diseases. We're so susceptible to fungal disease because human and mushroom DNA are actually very similar. Human and mushroom and my cellular DNA are more phylogenetically similar than humans and plant DNA.

• 1:17:31Speaker 01

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• 1:19:40Speaker 02

  There you go.

• 1:19:42Speaker 01

  Just like, well, you tell people that they go, whoa.

• 1:19:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:19:47Speaker 01

  And they can survive in a vacuum.

• 1:19:49Speaker 02

  And a vacuum and they're very homeostatic in nature. They like, can like eat plastic in certain situations and stuff. And so it's like they are the stewards of the earth. If you, if you get out of line too much or something, it's like they'll, you know, and then think about people that take mushrooms. They become more like conscientious vis a vis the entire earth. So they're, they're very sort of like, they're all about ecological balance.

• 1:20:12Speaker 01

  It's just so stunning how one presidential administration that was trying to stop the anti-war movement and the civil rights movement threw water on like one of the most profound compounds that exists on earth.

• 1:20:27Speaker 02

  Totally. And Timothy Leary was probably the CIA construct.

• 1:20:33Speaker 01

  You think so?

• 1:20:34Speaker 02

  I think so. His wife thought that.

• 1:20:36Speaker 01

  His wife thought?

• 1:20:38Speaker 02

  I believe so. I think there's a quote around that.

• 1:20:40Speaker 01

  Really?

• 1:20:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:20:40Speaker 01

  How so? Was he a CIA construct?

• 1:20:42Speaker 02

  Well, I think it was, it's similar to the like Tom O'Neill chaos theory with Manson, where it's like, he looks like a hippie, smells like a hippie, was living with Dennis Wilson, this, you know, Beach Boys or whatever. And then, and then he commits murder. So like, and then you have the Joan Didion quote that like, that's the day the 60s ended, you know, the date, the date of the Tate La Bianca murders.

• 1:21:01Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:21:02Speaker 02

  So I think it's maybe somewhat similar here where it's like, you're dosing people with way too high doses and you're like seeding a lot of stuff, you know, too much. And you're like, you're, there's actually a quote from Abby Hoffman, who was, you know, obviously, you know, big hippie at the time, where he's like, we were just upright, you know, Berkeley students who were protesting. And then here came the, the flower children from LA and Laurel Canyon and stuff. And they were all about their drugs and their murders and their guns. And like they were, they were just sort of really crazy. And so I think the theory is that Timothy Leary was sort of pushing this stuff in an overly aggressive way that would then cause this sort of backlash, similar to the Manson thing.

• 1:21:44Speaker 01

  Well, they also had like weird connections to like biker gangs. Right? Like, didn't the Ken Kesey and the Mary Pranksters have weird connections with like the Hells Angels? Isn't that how Hunter Thompson got involved with the Hells Angels? I think there's some sort of a connection. I might be making that up. I'm feeling very vague on this. But I believe they partied together quite a bit. Which is like, if you were, I mean, I guess you're both outcasts of society. You know, I guess you could kind of chalk it off to that, you know, like that maybe if you're hanging out in weird places, you're going to meet weird people.

• 1:22:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, totally. And I shouldn't say I'm like extremely high conviction that Timothy Leary was a CIA agent, but.

• 1:22:27Speaker 01

  But even the, the connection with biker gangs, like biker gangs, did you ever read Hells Angels?

• 1:22:34Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:22:34Speaker 01

  It's really great. It's a one of, I think it's Hunter's breakout book. And it was before, like, it was very clear that he was sort of blurring the lines between fiction and reality, like with literature, like a literary license. But what essentially happened was these guys came home from Vietnam, completely disillusioned. They'd killed a bunch of people. They'd been shot at. They'd seen their friends die. They didn't want to have any fucking part in this society anymore. And they just wanted to ride motorcycles and be free. And this is what started sort of the biker movement in America. And when you think about the

• 1:23:15Speaker 01

  people that were in Vietnam, well, Vietnam was all about drugs to begin with. The whole reason why we wanted control over that area of the world, that's the golden triangle. That's where they were bringing in all the opium. That's where there was fucking billions of dollars of drugs coming through there. Same as Afghanistan, very similar in that way. Is that we conveniently find like really important conflicts that we have to be involved in, that just happen to be the hubs of massive amounts of drug money. And so when these people were over there, they were, a lot of them were doing drugs. A lot of them were hooked on drugs. A lot of them came back and suffered through withdrawals than when they returned to America. And so those are the type of people that you would imagine

• 1:24:00Speaker 01

  would be like, well, fuck this life.

• 1:24:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:24:02Speaker 01

  You know, I am just gonna do whatever I can and I'll fucking rob the man. I'll whatever. We're going to figure out a way to make our own society. And we're going to be outlaws.

• 1:24:14Speaker 02

  Just opt out?

• 1:24:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, opt out and do drugs. And, and that's what they did. And so it kind of makes sense in a way that they would sort of meet the, you know, the flower children and Ken Kesey and the Mary Pranksters and Timothy Leary. Kind of makes sense that they would have interaction with each other.

• 1:24:33Speaker 02

  I feel like the, the boomers in that period, like the late 60s, early 70s had this opportunity.

• 1:24:41Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:24:42Speaker 01

  Leary's research is rumored to be linked to CIA, which allegedly provide funded, funding. CIA was greatly interested in the effects of mind-altering drugs in 1960s. And its drug research was incorporated into the controversial MKUltra experiments. Quoted to Walter Boart, Leary admitted to working for the CIA since 1962 as an important national asset. He's quoted by Boart as follows. "I would say that 80% of my movements, 80% of the decisions I made were suggested to me by CIA people." I like the CIA exclamation point. This is crazy. The game they're playing is better than the FBI, better than the Saigon police, better

• 1:25:24Speaker 01

  than Franco's police, better than the Israeli police. They're a thousand times better than the KGB. So it comes down to, who are you going to work for? The Yankees or the Dodgers? What?

• 1:25:37Speaker 02

  That's crazy.

• 1:25:38Speaker 01

  What?

• 1:25:40Speaker 01

  That's mad.

• 1:25:42Speaker 03

  So it was a very weird six months he spent, conveniently, right after he got out of the Army as a non-commissioned officer.

• 1:25:49Speaker 01

  Mmm. So he spent six months at Ohio State.

• 1:25:54Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 1:25:54Speaker 01

  Jamie.

• 1:25:55Speaker 02

  All leads back to Ohio.

• 1:25:56Speaker 01

  All roads lead to Ohio.

• 1:25:57Speaker 03

  It's just a very weird thing that seems out to me.

• 1:26:00Speaker 01

  Boy, it just keeps coming back to Ohio.

• 1:26:02Speaker 03

  It's always there.

• 1:26:03Speaker 01

  That's his number one rabbit hole.

• 1:26:05Speaker 02

  Oh, I know. We've talked about it. We've got Wright Pat there, Wright Patterson, Air Force Base, you have Bell Memorial Institute there, you have a lot of weird Epstein research.

• 1:26:16Speaker 03

  They just took his name off the, uh, he was removed from the board, or head of the board, chairman of the board.

• 1:26:22Speaker 02

  Who did?

• 1:26:23Speaker 03

  Uh, Wexner. Because of the Epstein stuff.

• 1:26:26Speaker 02

  Really?

• 1:26:27Speaker 03

  At Ohio State.

• 1:26:27Speaker 02

  Just now?

• 1:26:28Speaker 03

  Just now, just recently.

• 1:26:29Speaker 01

  Took a bit. Took a bit of time. I don't know who's responsible over there. The Wright Pat stuff is nuts. That's, that's, that's weird, because that is the place, when it was, it was Wright Airfield at the time, right? Where they think that they brought the Roswell crash to them.

• 1:26:45Speaker 02

  Exactly, yeah.

• 1:26:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:46Speaker 02

  Forty-seven, yeah. And that would be the place where you would bring it to, because they were reverse-engineering German pulse jet engines, Soviet MiGs, that sort of thing.

• 1:26:54Speaker 01

  Mmm.

• 1:26:56Speaker 02

  And there was this rumor of a Blue Room there, that actually, there's a, there's a crazy video of Barry Goldwater, who was a future presidential candidate, obviously, Senator from Arizona, and he's talking about Curtis LeMay, who was Chief of Staff of the Air Force, and he's like, "I asked Curtis LeMay to show me into the Blue Room at Wright Patterson, because it's this famous, you know, allegedly sort of alien, you know, storage facility." And he goes, "He cussed me out of the room, I've never seen him get more angry at me."

• 1:27:26Speaker 05

  At Radio Shack, outside Phoenix, the Senator disclaims direct knowledge of UFOs, but he does confirm a disturbing story about an exchange with General Curtis LeMay.

• 1:27:37Speaker 06

  Reportedly, a spaceship landed. It was all hushed up, quieted, and nobody ever, I've never heard about much of it. I called Curtis LeMay and I said, "General, uh, I know we have a room at Wright Patterson, where you put all his secret stuff."

• 1:28:02Speaker 01

  It was the worst audio ever.

• 1:28:04Speaker 06

  I've never heard him get mad, but he got madder than hell at me. Cussed me out, said, "Don't ever ask me that question again."

• 1:28:15Speaker 01

  That's this audio by the same guy who did the video Inside the UFO.

• 1:28:19Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:28:20Speaker 01

  They're just trying to fuck with us. It's just, they're trying to fuck with us. That's also a really interesting aspect of this whole concept of whether or not consciousness is rendering these things. If you're, if you're dealing with this reality that's like subtly unfolding in front of you, you kind of would have it a little funky, a little weird, a little blurry, a little odd, like, what better way to slow drip introduce it to the general public than to give it to you in these weird blurry videos? Not like some 4K crazy video of a fucking mothership, size of a football field, flying

• 1:29:05Speaker 01

  over a city, undeniable. Nah, let's give you some fucking black and white night vision of a circle going in the ocean, coming out of the ocean, where you're like, "What is that? What am I looking at?" What is it? Well, that is a transmedium device that has gone into the water without creating a splash, then gets out of the water and it's going 300 knots under the water. Like, what?

• 1:29:27Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:29:28Speaker 01

  What? No.

• 1:29:29Speaker 02

  It's almost like, it's, like you said, it's meant to fuck with us.

• 1:29:33Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:29:34Speaker 02

  We are, the, the end product is our belief system. And Jacques Vallée writes about this concept of intermittent reinforcement, which comes from the psychologist B.F. Skinner, which is like, if you give a rat cocaine, for example, and you give it regularly, like, you know, on the dot, every day or whatever, it'll like, you know, come back and forth and like, it'll not care as, I mean, it's cocaine, so it'll probably want it, but like, if you give a rat cocaine intermittently, randomly, sporadically, it'll freak out and just get obsessed. And maybe cocaine's not the best example, but anything, anything sweet, you know, it will become obsessed with the thing, because there's something about the intermittency that makes it special.

• 1:30:18Speaker 02

  If it's regular, it doesn't care, it knows it's there, it knows it's gonna be there at all times. And so I think there's something about the UFO phenomena where it's trickery, it always leaves a variable left to be questioned, and the end product is the person's obsession for truth after the fact.

• 1:30:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:35Speaker 02

  Because there's, there's never gonna be this smoking gun. It always has a slight stigma attached to it. The, almost like a design feature of ufology itself is the fact that I've never seen a field where there is this much evidence, but there is very little incontrovertible smoking gun evidence. There is this much, there's so much evidence that like, you know, I had Michael Shermer, you know, famous skeptic on my show, who I know you've had on, you know, many times, and I feel like I ran circles around him.

• 1:31:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:08Speaker 02

  Because he's not engaging with these really important data sets around UFOs showing up around nuclear sites and that sort of thing. Like, you can really argue with, or you can convince any reasonable person that there is something going on, and then it's very hard to figure out exactly what, and for whatever reason, there's this like, sort of mystery box smoking gun that, you know, maybe Bob Lazar has seen, you know. David Grush, I think, is this really fascinating person, because he has, you know, he brought forward 40 people who claimed to have firsthand knowledge to the intelligence community inspector general, so that makes him pretty special, because he has this like, really bird's eye vantage point over, you know, from, around all this stuff, and he's obviously, he himself

• 1:31:51Speaker 02

  has an eidetic memory, he's, you know, somewhat on the spectrum, and so, which, you know, he, he talks about, so he has this like, really, really kind of crazy attention to detail, so it makes him this really interesting sort of person. And you have, you have things like that, and then like, I don't know if there's a saucer and a hanger at Wright Pat, like, you know, I'd love to see it, it'd be awesome. And, and then you get into this sort of, well, you know, if that's like a payload delivery system, then obviously we can't see it, because it's like this national security thing, but it's almost like a design feature of the thing itself. Like, if, if you were to tell Jacques Vallée in 1975, or, you know, in the 60s, when he

• 1:32:31Speaker 02

  was J. Allen Hynek's assistant, "Hey, like, this is how much progress we've made on UFOs." I think from the perspective of disclosure, he might be pumped about the last 10 years, but from the perspective of like, understanding what the fuck they are, he'd be like, "I, I, like, I had the best theory back then, I, you know, really good theories back then." So, so like, it's, it's really crazy, we're in the Stone Age on this stuff. Actually, somebody who's like, really up on, I think, he's, I think he's, he's, he's responsible for a lot of modern disclosure, but he's like, blown by a lot of people, is Tom DeLonge, Blink 182.

• 1:33:08Speaker 01

  Crazy, right? Like, I thought he was a loon when he came on my show, but more and more, as time has gone on, the things that he said have been proven to be true.

• 1:33:17Speaker 02

  Totally. And now, and I don't want to talk too much out of turn, but like, I, because I'm, I'm friends with him, and he has some really interesting theories around consciousness, and how like, uh, these events sort of occur when things are really unstable. So like, either to, uh, discard things that are unstable and that are threatening to sort of the system, à la nuclear, or, um, to save something that is essential to preserve the system, so it's like, almost this like regulatory thing. It's really fascinating. It's like, he's, he's now miles ahead of, you know, I think we're a lot of, you know...

• 1:33:56Speaker 01

  To me, I was always like, okay, why are they bringing Tom DeLonge in to have conversations? And now, you know, like, like, he was being sort of briefed by very high-level intelligence people, right?

• 1:34:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, and that, that whole story of the, to the Stars Academy is a strange, interesting...

• 1:34:16Speaker 01

  It's all fucking weird. It's, it's also weird that you would get the fucking drummer, or the, what did he do in Blink 182?

• 1:34:22Speaker 02

  I think he was the frontman, I think.

• 1:34:23Speaker 01

  Frontman, yeah. Yeah, not the drummer, that was Travis, obviously. Uh, like, that you get a guy who's a, a big-time rock star.

• 1:34:31Speaker 02

  He was obsessed his entire life, and I think, so yeah, I think he was surrounded by some very interesting people, and in certain cases, not so savory people, to be totally honest.

• 1:34:42Speaker 01

  Really?

• 1:34:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, or just people who are associated with sort of...

• 1:34:46Speaker 01

  Misinformation?

• 1:34:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, or like, you know, James Clapper, who like, you know... Probably lied in front of Congress about wiretapping. So like, why should we trust UFO stuff, you know? And I'm not saying that, you know, Tom was necessarily, I don't know who exactly he was in touch with, but I think it was like that crowd of, you know, people. But I think people, what people don't understand, and this is what I pieced together from just knowing him, I think he has sort of vigilante gotten in touch with a lot, like a lot of these people like shut the door in his face. And he's like, no, I'll fly out there and I'll do anything. And like, I'll, I'll help like communicate this way. I know you guys have been trying to communicate this forever to the, to the public and like, maybe I can help or whatever. And I think a lot of it just stemmed from his desire to know and his

• 1:35:31Speaker 02

  like true passion for this that started from when he was a kid. And that was like super organic.

• 1:35:36Speaker 01

  But you also have to think, like, if you wanted to get a narrative out there, what better way than get a really famous rock star?

• 1:35:42Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:35:43Speaker 01

  Feed him some whore shit.

• 1:35:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, it's possible. Yeah.

• 1:35:47Speaker 01

  Right?

• 1:35:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, but also if you read secret machines, I think there's a lot, then that's, you know, he's written some books, actually. And if you read the books, there are some really interesting things kind of hidden in plain sight that end up getting corroborated in my own open source research. So I'll give you an example. He says that a UFO possibly came out of the sky during a high altitude nuclear test in the Marshall Islands in the early 60s. So these are these famous, you know, Bikini Atoll, Johnston Atoll, you know, Operation Dominic tests. And it's, I think it was, he called it, yeah, during the Starfish Prime series. And I thought that, you know, that was nuts. Like, what are you talking? Like a UFO came out of the plume? I know they show up around nuclear sites, but really did the UFO come out of the plume? So I end up interviewing this guy. He's a presidential

• 1:36:32Speaker 02

  advisor to JFK, LBJ, Nixon, and Ford. And he is 89 years old, completely like sharp as a tack, like with it, and just has this elite kind of macro, kind of, you know, exact picture of the world in his head. I think he worked closely with Kissinger and like just really knew his sort of stuff when it came to just pro se conventional political trends, you know, outside of UFO stuff. And he had been tweeting some interesting things about UFOs. And then he starts going into this story. And I'm like, what? Like, so basically he goes, I was in charge of the cost assessment for one of these high altitude nuclear tests. It's the, it's called the Blue Gill Triple Prime Test, part of the Starfish

• 1:37:17Speaker 02

  Prime series. In 1962, in October, actually during the Cuban Missile Crisis, it was October 25th. And he goes, we didn't have any way to defend against Soviet ICBMs at the time. So we, exactly.

• 1:37:29Speaker 01

  This is a GIF plan. I can't control the video, so I was trying to show.

• 1:37:32Speaker 02

  So this is, this is the video of the test, and that white triangle was superimposed on, and there, that's the UFO falling out of the plume, which is insane.

• 1:37:42Speaker 01

  So explain it again?

• 1:37:45Speaker 02

  Okay, so, so basically.

• 1:37:46Speaker 01

  What's falling out of the plume?

• 1:37:47Speaker 02

  A possible UFO object. Yeah, that.

• 1:37:50Speaker 01

  Well, you know about the, the images that were, were taken, what, you know, those, what is the, the method that was used? Where they observed reflective things in the sky from, what was it? Was it radar or what? Do you know what I'm talking about, Jamie? We've discussed this before. Like, they have photographs of the sky. They have some sort of an, an image of the sky from the 1960s. And they showed that there were multiple things that were metallic. This episode is brought to you by The Farmer's Dog. Here's a fun fact. Research shows that

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• 1:40:43Speaker 02

  That were, I think you might, you might be talking about Beatrice Viorial, this Stockholm University astrophysicist.

• 1:40:50Speaker 01

  That's it.

• 1:40:51Speaker 02

  She's amazing. So I'll get back to this in a second.

• 1:40:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, go ahead.

• 1:40:54Speaker 02

  But, but she basically has these astronomical plates from the Palomar Observatory.

• 1:41:00Speaker 01

  That's what it is.

• 1:41:01Speaker 02

  Palomar Observatory was the most prominent observatory in use at the time. And she has these transients that she's, she's gotten on these astronomical plates. The plates have basically this emulsion that's sensitive to light. So that, you know, basically when light goes through, you know, the, the optical circuitry of the telescope, and then it hits the plate, you see like stars and planets and all sorts of things. You have a record of what's in the sky, right? And she saw all 105,000, what she calls transients, which are light reflecting mirror-like objects, probably in geostationary orbit, which is where I think we see a lot of UFOs. And this is before Sputnik, before a man-made satellite

• 1:41:43Speaker 02

  was ever in space. This is from 1949 to 1957. It gets crazier because a PhD from Vanderbilt University named Stephen Bruel then correlated those transients. They show up more around nuclear detonations, nuclear tests. It's wild.

• 1:42:01Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:42:02Speaker 02

  And you have people like Brian Keating and, you know, Sabina Hossenfelder, who are like conventional physicists who are talking about this now, who are like, yeah, we don't really have a perfect debunk on this. Some people have thrown cosmic rays at it. Some people have said, you know, yeah, solar rays, but neither of those make any sense. And then, then there's a former NASA astronomer named Ivo Bosko, who showed that some of these transits have, they're called, it's called a coma, which is like a little kind of, looks like a little comet tail on the transient. And that gets created by the optical circuitry of the telescope itself. So the number one debunk on Beatrice was that these transients were artifacts of chemical staining and like issues, they call them

• 1:42:47Speaker 02

  plate defects. And Ivo Bosko is basically saying, no, the light is going through the telescope. It's going through the telescope. So it has to be an artifact of something outside of the telescope. So you, you're left with one conclusion, which is UFOs. And then you get into the fact that NASA has what are called like uncorrelated targets all the time. Like, there's noise in the sky. There are transients that are detected all the time in the sky. And we just sort of rule it out all the time. So it's, it's really crazy. And it's, I think it's very hard to debunk. And if she figures, if she proves this to be true, this is a, not only Copernican level discovery, it is greater than that. It is, it is a wild, wild discovery. And I have, I don't know, I don't want to

• 1:43:32Speaker 02

  say I'm like, you know, 100% sure it's legit. It's, you know, it's a little beyond my pay grade when it comes to the science, but I have not heard one good debunk on it. Not one.

• 1:43:43Speaker 01

  Whoa.

• 1:43:44Speaker 02

  Yeah. You would love talking to her.

• 1:43:45Speaker 01

  It's also, there's some speculation about some of these things falling from the sky, that they took place because of these high altitude nuclear tests.

• 1:43:54Speaker 02

  So that's what this Blue Gill Triple Prime test is. So this is an example. So Tom DeLong wrote about this Starfish Prime test in secret machines. And a lot of this stuff is sort of, you know, codes hidden in plain sight. And he had amazing sources. I mean, one of his sources is this general who's now missing, William Neil McCaslin, who was in charge of the entire Special Access Program Oversight Committee. And what he told Tom is, he goes, you want to know about the UFO issue? All you're going to find are a bunch of blind men touching different parts of an elephant. Which is, I think, the whole fallacy of modern UFO disclosure. It's not like there's this line in the sand, oh, here's the truth. We're going to give it to you. It's like, oh, we have this program here and this program here, and we're testing this stuff, but we don't really understand

• 1:44:37Speaker 02

  what it is. And it's kind of confusing. And so, okay, so, so DeLong writes about the Starfish Prime, you know, test, right? Where this UFO comes out of the plume. I interviewed this guy, Harold Malmgren, who is well-known in DC circles as this like elite statesman outside of UFOs. Like, just kind of renowned, good, you know, very impressive reputation. He discusses being in charge of cost assessments for this specific Starfish Prime test called the Blue Gill Triple Prime test, where you put this X-ray device within the nose cone of a Thor X1 missile. And it's specifically so that when, you know, the nuke detonates, the X-ray blast then can take out any surrounding ICBMs. So it's, it's, there was no way to

• 1:45:22Speaker 02

  guard against Soviet ICBMs. This was the way to do it. He said in my interview with him that, in fact, all along, you know, this, this may have been this sort of ploy to take out UFOs as well. His, his mentor, by the way, is Richard Bissell, who was the number two in the entire CIA and founded Area 51. And, yeah, wild.

• 1:45:44Speaker 01

  Whoa.

• 1:45:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. And so he is in charge of the cost assessment for this thing. He says that there's this, he gets briefed on it and he finds out that this object comes out of the plume of this thing. And he goes, what is going on? He goes, I want access to that, this thing. And he gets like, I think, kind of stonewalled a little bit. He ends up at the Sandia complex in New Mexico, one of these national labs, and Lawrence Preston Geis, who found, went on to found DARPA and is Jeff Bezos's maternal grandfather, hands him pieces of the UFO. And he, and he says, and very sadly, he passed away a few weeks after I interviewed him. So there's so much more of, you know, we wanted to learn and know about, you know, about this

• 1:46:28Speaker 02

  testimony, but he says he held the pieces of the UFO in his hand. And there's a Freedom of Information Act request around the Starfish Prime series saying, I want all records from Starfish Prime series on UAVs, UFOs, UAPs, every acronym related to UFOs. And they, the National Nuclear Security Administration gets back and they say, you know, the responsive records that you asked for, you know, we, we referred them to the, to the right subject matter expert, implying that there are responsive records, that there are records from the National Nuclear Security Administration, which guards all nuclear secrets, around UFOs at the time.

• 1:47:11Speaker 02

  There's also a guy named David Noble White Crow, who I think it was a different Starfish Prime test, claimed to see a UFO, like on his Navy ship. There's a guy named Bob Jacobs, who I've interviewed, who is a photo instrumentation specialist, who says that there were rumors of an object having fallen, fallen, you know, down from the sky. In fact, if you look at the Navy deck logs, I just interviewed the Navy's former chief oceanographer, a name, a guy named Tim Gallaudet. He is as well versed in Navy deck logs as anybody and as, you know, credentialed and qualified to read them as anybody. And he says that these look very anomalous and weird and like they retrieved something. And I think there was an outage on one of the ships.

• 1:47:55Speaker 02

  And there was an admiral named Admiral Starbird, who was named, I guess, who was the senior officer present afloat, who flew in a, in a huff at 4:00 AM. Once this thing was retrieved, he flew at 4:00 AM back stateside.

• 1:48:08Speaker 01

  So this is a much better video of it.

• 1:48:11Speaker 02

  So there, so there are two vantage points, and both were EG&G planes, and EG&G comes up all over nuclear sort of stuff. And Kettle One and Kettle Two, and there's actually an Australian intelligence analyst named Jeff Kruchshank, does an amazing analysis of all this stuff. And he calls this the Kettle One footage, where you can see the UFO coming out. And the Kettle Two footage is, this, it looks exactly like that footage, but there's a white triangle over the object coming out. And some people are like, oh, it's an emulsion defect, it's, you know, whatever. He, he went to, he, he asked for a mandatory declassification review of this thing. And I think the guy in charge of it was a guy named Byron Ristvett.

• 1:48:53Speaker 02

  And that guy goes, we lost the, we lost the video. We lost the video. So it's either an emulsion defect, or you lost the video, but like, you have multiple stories. It's just like Roswell, where it's like, you, it's either crash dummies, or it's a weather balloon, or it's just a, you know, or it's Project Mogul, high altitude radar balloon. You have three different stories, or it's just fucking aliens, you know, or something, you know? So it's really crazy. And, and, and his Wikipedia was completely changed and destroyed the day, the day after. It was, it was totally messed up and this, this hit piece was written about him. And it was, it was, it was actually after he died. So it was really fucked up because it was like kicking this guy after he passed away.

• 1:49:37Speaker 02

  And it, I think it was such an amazing courageous testimony that I, I think will stand the test of time.

• 1:49:43Speaker 01

  Why do you think they attacked him? Just to try to dismiss whatever he was saying?

• 1:49:47Speaker 02

  To throw mud on it. I think a lot of counter intel in this space is not necessarily trying to shut down conversation entirely, but it's throwing mud on it. It's keeping it in this liminal space of like, I don't know, it could have happened. But, and so they called, they moved him from presidential advisor to Japanese whaling lobbyist. Because he worked with every prime minister in Japan since Takana in the seventies. And so they, and, and down to Shinzo Abe. And they're calling him a, like, there was some scandal or something and like that, that was what they were identifying him with, was this whaling lobby. It's so crazy.

• 1:50:23Speaker 01

  God, they're so good at that. They're so good at throwing mud on things.

• 1:50:29Speaker 02

  It's so cra- and it was infuriating, to be honest. It was really upsetting because here was a guy who, he just pattern matched to this like really, you know, brilliant guy. And he had all these other amazing things to say about global macro, politics, JFK's assassination, all these interesting things. And you're just like, kind of really, you know, messing with his legacy, or you're kicking him when he's, when he's, after he passed away. It's fucked up.

• 1:50:56Speaker 01

  It is fucked up, but that is what they do.

• 1:50:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:50:59Speaker 01

  What is your take on Whitley Stryber?

• 1:51:02Speaker 02

  I think, I love Whitley as a person. And I think he, his, again, it's probably one of those things where in upstate New York, you know, as he describes in Communion, something probably happened. He probably is one of these people who like, you know, if, if we are nodes of consciousness that attract, you know, either very normal things or weird things based on our aperture and our sort of understanding of reality, his is wide open, you know? He is, he is extremely high in the openness category. And I think that's where things get kind of sticky with some of these sort of super experiencers, because I think they are often very credulous, but that goes hand in hand with having a lot

• 1:51:47Speaker 02

  of weird experiences. And so I think Whitley's gotten stuff wrong. I, I do. And, you know, hopefully, don't come down on me UFO community for, for saying that. I think he's, I think he has said some wacky things that I'm like.

• 1:52:02Speaker 01

  Like what?

• 1:52:03Speaker 02

  I don't, well, we talked about one of them. I don't know if you remember that.

• 1:52:07Speaker 01

  Which one was it?

• 1:52:08Speaker 02

  It was like, he said that there was a fly that was a-

• 1:52:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, I remember that one. Yeah, I brought that one up before because I remember watching a video and I'm like, okay, what are you doing? Because there was a fly, he's like, is that a man in a suit? I remember that. And I was like, wait, I can't find that video, by the way. I've tried very hard to find that video. After the fact.

• 1:52:25Speaker 02

  I, I think very strange stuff does go on. You know what he says? He says, I was picked as a node for disclosure because of the plot, it would be plausibly deniable. It's what you're talking about, where there's, there is, he's this horror, he was this horror writer. He was a fiction writer before he had his encounter.

• 1:52:41Speaker 01

  Which is also part of the problem.

• 1:52:43Speaker 02

  It's part of the problem.

• 1:52:44Speaker 01

  Because he has an incredible imagination.

• 1:52:45Speaker 02

  For sure. And then it's also part of his ability to decide, it's why Communion was a bestseller. So it's this weird, like, it creates this like sort of cult-like mythology. And then I, look, I know a lot of experiencers where I'm like, I, I know that, I mean, I really believe them, that they've had experiences with, you know, grays specifically. And it's a very common trope that they'll walk by Communion in like a Barnes and Noble bookstore and it'll freak them out. And that will be like their own hypnotic regression. They'll be like, oh, like they've never seen a gray before and that's the first time they've seen a gray.

• 1:53:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, the cover of the book is amazing.

• 1:53:18Speaker 02

  It's amazing.

• 1:53:19Speaker 01

  Who else had a book called Communion? Remember we had them on and we were like, do you know that your book is the same as title as Whitley Stryber, but was completely different? Who, remember that, Jamie? Someone like fairly recently. We, we have too many people on this fucking show. My hard drive's cooked. J.D. Vance. J.D. Vance, that's right.

• 1:53:39Speaker 02

  Oh, he had a book called Communion. While simultaneously calling aliens possibly demons.

• 1:53:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, he didn't really have a good explanation for that.

• 1:53:46Speaker 02

  No, he didn't.

• 1:53:47Speaker 01

  I pressed him on that.

• 1:53:48Speaker 02

  And he kind of laughed very uncomfortably because he didn't know what to say.

• 1:53:51Speaker 01

  I, I think, with all due respect to Mr. Vance, who I really like as a person, I think he's a very nice guy.

• 1:54:01Speaker 01

  I think he's signaling to the tribe.

• 1:54:03Speaker 02

  It is. It's a political polemic. You're not looking at the data. Like he says, "I want to look into the UFO issue. I just haven't had the time." I actually understand that. There's a lot going on in the world, you know? But it's also, you've had some time, so maybe, you know, go look into it.

• 1:54:18Speaker 01

  I kind of understand it, but kind of don't.

• 1:54:20Speaker 02

  I'm with you. That'd be the first thing.

• 1:54:22Speaker 01

  Plenty of time to go to church. Like, listen, bro, look into it.

• 1:54:26Speaker 02

  Look into it, exactly.

• 1:54:28Speaker 01

  To quote Eddie Bravo, "Look into it." It's weird that you would say it's demons. But I think that, much like Tucker Carlson has sort of alluded to this as well, I think there's a certain aspect to people that are believers, right? Okay, when I say believers, I'm talking about like, Christian believers. Believers in the Bible. Believers in the narrative that comes along with Christianity. You know, and that, for them, there's like, if you say, "I believe they're demons," like, "He's on our side." There's, you know, there's, you will attract those people. They will, that will resonate with certain people.

• 1:55:08Speaker 01

  And I do think, very unfortunately, that there are politicians that say things, we both know this, that they don't necessarily believe, because they think that their base wants to hear it.

• 1:55:20Speaker 02

  Totally. Yeah, you're a traditionalist. You're like, "Why do we have to deal with this new agey bullshit?" It's just, you know, go back to the scripture, and they're demons.

• 1:55:31Speaker 01

  Oh, I like it. I like how this guy's talking.

• 1:55:34Speaker 02

  Exactly. And it ends the conversation. Because then it's like, "Okay, but if they're demons, there are angels too? And what is a demon, and what is an angel?"

• 1:55:44Speaker 01

  Also, where's the evidence that these demons are doing anything demonic?

• 1:55:49Speaker 02

  Well, here's where it gets interesting, which is, if you actually talk to Jacques Vallée, who I do think is probably as deep as anybody as far as decades studying this stuff, going to, you know, 100-plus crash sites, talking to probably thousands of experiencers. And he'll often say, you know, "Some of this stuff does pattern-match to demonic behavior." Where it is sort of this, you know, getting you to chase your tail. It's, you know, it's paralyzing you. You know, in some cases, it's sort of angelic as well. In the case of, you know, Mario and Michael, it's, they say, "Do not fear, do not fear." That's exactly what Daniel and the Bible heard, you know, on the banks of the Tigris. "Do not fear" is, if the Bible, if the angels in the Bible have like, you know, a catchphrase, it's "do not fear."

• 1:56:34Speaker 02

  And so, he actually notes that there are some similarities. So I think that there are two failure modes, right? It's the end the conversation, like, you know, "I'm religious, I don't want to hear it," sort of thing. And then on the other side, it's like, you can't even look at the Bible as data, or like, any past mythology or lore as possibly overlapping with. You know, sulfur and ammonia seem to be the smell. Sulfur is, you know, so, you know, that being, you know, at Virginia, you know, where that thing crawling around, that probably would have been called a demon like 1,000, 2,000 years ago.

• 1:57:08Speaker 01

  Especially when you look at it. It was like, a weird colored body with red eyes, and it looked like it had like, these tiny little horns.

• 1:57:16Speaker 02

  Totally. By the way, I just interviewed the Brazilian, the former Brazilian Defense Minister, and I brought up Virginia, and he goes, "I believe it happened."

• 1:57:24Speaker 01

  Whoa.

• 1:57:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:57:26Speaker 01

  Whoa.

• 1:57:27Speaker 02

  So we're making progress.

• 1:57:30Speaker 01

  Allegedly. Allegedly. Well, then there's also the guy who was physically in contact with it that died.

• 1:57:38Speaker 02

  The guy, yeah, yeah, well, yeah, exactly, yeah. James Fox, watch "Moment of Contact" if you want to know what we're talking about. Basically, you have 15 to 20 people alive today in this small town in Virginia, 130,000, you know, person town. And they knew nothing about Roswell, UFOs, you know, it's this town in Brazil. And in 1996, in January, James Fox, this amazing researcher-documentarian, has triangulated the flight path of this kind of Tic Tac object that came down. This ultralight pilot and geography teacher named Carlos de Souza was first on the scene. He smells all, you know, these sort of weird sulfur ammonia smell.

• 1:58:20Speaker 02

  He actually holds the material, apparently, and then it's taken from him by, I guess ESA is this, you know, nearby military base. 15 minutes later, he has this sort of Men in Black experience, where somebody comes up to him at a gas station, seems to know everything about him and his family, and swears him to secrecy. Meanwhile, the beings are running around this town. And the beings end up in this hospital, Regionalis Hospital. And this neurosurgeon, who I've met and interviewed, who is the chief neurosurgeon, basically like, probably the most senior guy in Virginia, but I think even senior, you know, in Brazil as far as, you know, neurosurgeons go. He says that he treated this being.

• 1:59:03Speaker 02

  And that, or I guess he was face-to-face with the being for four minutes. And he was checking the work of this, of his colleague who had treated the being, who had done this like, minor surgery on the being. And apparently, if you go to this hospital, and you say, like, "Hey, you know, is this the being where the ET was treated?" They'll be like, "Yeah, yeah, this is it." And Virginia itself has a big saucer.

• 1:59:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:59:25Speaker 02

  You know, in homage to this entire event. It's amazing.

• 1:59:28Speaker 01

  Well, that's...

• 1:59:29Speaker 03

  What's up? I hate doing this, but...

• 1:59:31Speaker 01

  Please do.

• 1:59:32Speaker 03

  I just was looking up, like, you know, perplexity, I asked Virginia UFO incident, debunked or not, never have done that before. And I've never heard this brought up. This is a known guy. His name is Moudinho. From that area. And he is in the exact same position as the alien picture.

• 1:59:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, weird.

• 1:59:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, but if you treated that guy for a head wound, you would know that that's not... And does he smell like sulfur?

• 2:00:03Speaker 03

  Local man with disabilities who's reportedly seen crouching in heavy rain. They did a 600-page inquiry.

• 2:00:08Speaker 01

  Could have appeared dirty or unusual.

• 2:00:11Speaker 03

  Military's...

• 2:00:12Speaker 02

  Could he have flown in on a craft with...

• 2:00:14Speaker 01

  And was he so stinky that when the officer brought him into the hospital, the guy died of a bacterial infection they couldn't treat?

• 2:00:22Speaker 02

  That's the crazy thing. Then there's this guy, Marco Cherezzi, who's the soldier that grabbed the ET being and apprehended it. And his whole family knows about this. And then he gets an autopsy. I interviewed the guy who did the autopsy. And he was like, "This was like, this gnarly form of this bacteria that I've never seen in my life." And the guy, who's president of IPD, which is the company that does the autopsy report, he even said, "Yeah, I think it was from the nail of the ET, accidentally, you know, the being didn't mean any harm to this guy, but there was a puncture wound, and it created this horrible, you know, viral infection, and he died, or I think it was bacterial infection, and he died of that." So crazy.

• 2:01:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. What?

• 2:01:09Speaker 02

  It's so nuts. But I mean...

• 2:01:10Speaker 01

  The Virginia one is really crazy.

• 2:01:12Speaker 02

  It's really crazy.

• 2:01:13Speaker 01

  Because it's like, there's so many people that... But then the problem is, like, I would love to have talked to them in 1996, individually, without them knowing that this was going to be a global story, and when they can all sync up their memories.

• 2:01:26Speaker 02

  I know, I know. And I'm praying that we get a case like that, you know, at some point. Where, and, look, it's better than Roswell, 1947.

• 2:01:35Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:01:36Speaker 02

  You know, we're really reading the tea leaves on that. So it's 1996, you have 15 to 20 people alive who have either saw the craft or the being. That's pretty amazing.

• 2:01:45Speaker 01

  Those young ladies, they were girls at the time. And then, when they get interviewed later, when they're grown women, and they're talking about the incident, it's very strange. But I think the strangest one is the cop, who goes to the scene of the crash, and he starts weeping. And he starts sort of grilling. I'm like, "Okay, well, either this cop is the best actor that's never been in a movie, ever, or he's having a real response to some sort of crazy memory of an event."

• 2:02:08Speaker 02

  That was Carlos de Souza, the geography teacher. And he led them around, to your point, for two hours or something, before finding that spot. And I think if you were acting, you'd be like, "Yeah, this is the spot." You wouldn't like, be like, you wouldn't be like, "Wait, there was a white shed there, and it's not here anymore," and confused. And apparently, there was a white shed there that was removed, or whatever. And then finally, when he sees the spot, you just see him palpably break down. It's not this, unless, yeah, you're, you know, taking some acting class on the side.

• 2:02:37Speaker 01

  Not only that, you're a fucking genius. You're the next Daniel Day-Lewis. Like, "What are you doing, wasting your time in Brazil? Telling UFO stories."

• 2:02:47Speaker 01

  He could Hollywood, young man. Yeah, it's uh, it's, but it's also, the problem is, I wanna believe it. It's also the problem.

• 2:02:55Speaker 02

  Me too.

• 2:02:55Speaker 01

  You know, I don't wanna believe it's like, the thing about like Roswell in particular. Roswell had, it, it has become an industry, right? There's the, the, the whole tourist trap thing, there's the little gray, you could buy things, knickknacks at stores. You know, it's like, it's got this whole connection to it.

• 2:03:18Speaker 02

  It does, it does, it's its own cottage industry, it becomes people's identities, so they often wanna keep it going. And then sometimes they're like, and this other thing happened to me too, wait, you know.

• 2:03:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:27Speaker 02

  Come back, sort of thing, but.

• 2:03:28Speaker 01

  Did you see the conversation that Travis Walton had with Bob Lazar in a diner?

• 2:03:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was on my buddy's show, Chris Ramsey, Area 52.

• 2:03:35Speaker 01

  What a weird way to do a show, have a diner. And see, and they're like, you have these two guys sitting across from each other, it's very odd how they did it. But, I didn't think that was necessary, but, but the conversation's interesting.

• 2:03:47Speaker 02

  It's super interesting, to hear the similarities between, you know, their accounts and, yeah, things that line up and. They don't, they, those two guys are also kinda again, in that top tier of like, you spend time with them. I haven't spent time with Travis Walton, but I have with Bob, and it's like, you know this, it's like, really hard to poke holes in this story. And they just, to go back to our original, you know, OG, the top of this conversation. Like, the pattern matching is just there with him, he doesn't seem like a bullshitter.

• 2:04:17Speaker 01

  Travis doesn't seem like a bullshitter at all, you know, I talked to him for several hours and, you know, before and after the show. And, he, he's also a guy who's had the same story for 50 years. It's the same story.

• 2:04:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:04:31Speaker 01

  It's the, it doesn't really vary, they all took lie detector tests.

• 2:04:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:04:35Speaker 01

  One of the guys that was a part of the crew, actually hated him and got in a fistfight with him the day of the event. And he told the exact same story.

• 2:04:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, and he came back, there was missing time, and I think he came back with a full grown beard.

• 2:04:47Speaker 01

  Five days later.

• 2:04:47Speaker 02

  Five days later.

• 2:04:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:04:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, it's very strange.

• 2:04:51Speaker 01

  But his clothes weren't dirty, he's like, and he had this insane story.

• 2:04:55Speaker 02

  And they all stuck to the same story, and, yeah.

• 2:04:58Speaker 01

  Well, they thought those guys killed him at first, so they were.

• 2:05:00Speaker 02

  They did, they were questioning, yeah.

• 2:05:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, they, like, where the fuck is he? And they're telling the story, they're like, what? And then he comes back five days later and tells the story, and they're like, what is, like, what? Did, did you guys all plan this? Like, what the fuck is going on? But it doesn't seem like they did.

• 2:05:17Speaker 02

  So trippy, and he like, touched the craft, and it was, had this electromagnetic charge or something, like bounced off of it.

• 2:05:23Speaker 01

  Either he touched it or he got close to it, right?

• 2:05:25Speaker 02

  Got close to it, and that, that's common to, yeah, maybe he got close, I don't know. But that's common for UFO experiencers, where it's like, you experience like weird electromagnetic effects. Where it's like, almost like you're getting a, a sunburn, where you get like, you know, UV damage. It's actually in Close Encounters of the Third Kind, it's depicted, where, you know, Richard Dreyfuss literally has a sunburn after his encounter.

• 2:05:47Speaker 01

  On one side of his face, where it was to the left of his face, cuz it was outside the window.

• 2:05:51Speaker 02

  Exactly, exactly. And Mario Woods also, in, in Ellsworth, you know, South Dakota, he also had, had burns, and he didn't know where they came from, they took skin samples.

• 2:06:03Speaker 01

  And what'd they discover?

• 2:06:05Speaker 02

  I don't know, I think that, that part's classified, unfortunately.

• 2:06:09Speaker 01

  God. Wouldn't you just love to have an actual experience yourself? I mean, imagine, thinking about all the time you spent studying this, and you haven't had an actual experience yourself.

• 2:06:20Speaker 02

  I've seen UFOs, but I haven't, I know, I haven't had a close encounter of the, of the third kind.

• 2:06:25Speaker 01

  What have you seen?

• 2:06:27Speaker 02

  I saw, in Laurel Canyon, I saw a UFO, and then in Silver Lake, I saw, it's weird places to see UFOs, in, in LA.

• 2:06:35Speaker 01

  What'd they look like?

• 2:06:36Speaker 02

  One was, I, I told one of them on, on your show, I think I told both of them on your show, but, but, um, one was like a school bus, sort of thing, which is really weird. It was like, um, you know, kind of, you know, rectangular, and, uh, it was hovering like, right above the treetops. It was not very high, and it was sort of silently moving over the treetops, and I was with a, a friend at the time, and she saw the UFO like descend over the treetops, like, like, like go into some, you know, we were in a residential area, it was in Laurel Canyon. And, so that was very strange, I didn't see that, I didn't see it sort of descend, I just saw it go over.

• 2:07:14Speaker 02

  And it, but it looked like a floating, again, school bus, like a thing, and there's like no visible propulsion, it was the strangest thing.

• 2:07:21Speaker 01

  How fast was it moving?

• 2:07:24Speaker 02

  That's hard for me to say, I don't know.

• 2:07:27Speaker 01

  Not fast?

• 2:07:27Speaker 02

  Not fast, yeah.

• 2:07:28Speaker 01

  Like, it could have been a balloon?

• 2:07:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's no way.

• 2:07:32Speaker 01

  Really?

• 2:07:32Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:07:33Speaker 01

  Why? It's floating like a balloon, like a.

• 2:07:36Speaker 02

  Because it was like.

• 2:07:37Speaker 01

  Helium balloon?

• 2:07:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, I get, I get, maybe it could have been a balloon.

• 2:07:41Speaker 01

  A large balloon?

• 2:07:42Speaker 02

  Maybe, I don't know, it was like, it was right above the treetops, and you heard this sort of little hum, and, I don't know, I don't, I don't, I don't know. I don't think it was a balloon, but may, maybe it was a balloon.

• 2:07:55Speaker 01

  I mean, think about blimps, like, if you didn't know what a blimp was, and you saw that thing flying over, you're like, oh my god, we're being invaded.

• 2:08:02Speaker 02

  I've seen plenty of blimps, and they're usually like really high in the sky, and this thing like.

• 2:08:07Speaker 01

  But they don't have to be, right? That's how they come down.

• 2:08:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:08:11Speaker 01

  Right?

• 2:08:12Speaker 02

  This thing was definitely not a balloon, but I can't, I don't remember the exact, you know, details as to what.

• 2:08:18Speaker 01

  No noise?

• 2:08:20Speaker 02

  Uh, like, kind of like a, a low bassy thing, but no, like, not normal, not normal propulsion noise, yeah.

• 2:08:27Speaker 01

  Like, bassy?

• 2:08:29Speaker 02

  Like, it was like a.

• 2:08:30Speaker 01

  Like a.

• 2:08:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, that sort of thing, yeah.

• 2:08:33Speaker 01

  Like the fan that's moving the balloon.

• 2:08:35Speaker 02

  But not, not at all like a, you know, a chopper, or a.

• 2:08:38Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:08:39Speaker 02

  You know, a plane, or anything, and, yeah, I don't know. It, as far as, it just looked metallic, like, if it was a blimp or something, it would have been like perfectly, like, I don't know, it had, it had some sophisticated signature management to look like it was like, you know, perfectly metallic and shiny.

• 2:08:55Speaker 01

  But like Mylar balloons, they look very metallic.

• 2:08:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I think you could see that it was floating, you could see that, you know, possibly that it was moving with the wind. And this didn't look like it was moving with the wind at all, it looked like it was sort of moving against the wind. I mean, not, not necessarily moving against it, but moving agnostic to the wind, is what I'm trying to say.

• 2:09:17Speaker 01

  If there was a way where you could sit down and conjure up an experience with something, would you do it?

• 2:09:27Speaker 02

  Conjure up an experience, what do you mean?

• 2:09:29Speaker 01

  Like, if you could, in a meditative state, access, like, whatever connection, and, and have like a Betty and Barney Hill type experience?

• 2:09:41Speaker 02

  I, I wouldn't try to artificially do that necessarily.

• 2:09:44Speaker 01

  Really?

• 2:09:45Speaker 02

  I mean, I would, I would love to have an experience, but maybe organically, like, if it's sort of, you know, meant, meant for me, sort of thing. But, that is, there are whistleblowers who've come out, this guy like Jake Barber, for example, that talks about essentially programs forcing people systematically to conjure up these sorts of experiences.

• 2:10:05Speaker 01

  Right, that's why I asked.

• 2:10:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:10:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, uh, yeah, no, and I, I think there's, so I think there's a long tradition of communing with these sorts of things. That goes back to like kind of Merekaba, Kabbalistic practices, you know, Neo-Platonists would call it Theurgy, like, you know, kind of communing with deities. And, I don't think it's a coincidence that, I think there are aspects of, you know, Stephen Greer, say what you will about the guy, CE5, there are aspects of that that are maybe similar to some of these sort of protocols.

• 2:10:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:10:38Speaker 02

  That involve sort of communing with these things. And, traditionally, you're not supposed to do this stuff, unless you are, like, fully, like, of pure intent, you're probably older, like, you're not supposed to start Kabbalah, for example, until you're 35.

• 2:10:54Speaker 01

  Really?

• 2:10:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think you're supposed to be married as well, you're supposed to be like very rooted in reality.

• 2:10:59Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 2:11:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, so, and then there's like.

• 2:11:02Speaker 01

  That's like a Jewish mysticism, right?

• 2:11:04Speaker 02

  That's a Ju, a Jewish mysticism, but there are Christian versions of it, and, you know, I, I think there, yeah, there, there, there are versions of it kind of across history. The, the Neo-Platonists had a virgin, a version of it as well, so, you know, I think this is, uh, something that, yeah, I, I think the Jews had it with, you know, Ezekiel's wheel and the, the kind of Merekaba texts, but I think there's, there's more.

• 2:11:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, the weird stuff, when you get into the Bible itself, is the stuff that wasn't put in the Bible.

• 2:11:36Speaker 02

  I know what you're gonna say.

• 2:11:37Speaker 01

  The Enoch stuff.

• 2:11:38Speaker 02

  That's so weird.

• 2:11:39Speaker 01

  The Enoch stuff is really weird.

• 2:11:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:11:41Speaker 01

  And when they find it in these clay tablets in Kumron along with books in the Bible, like the Book of Isaiah was also in there, like, okay, what, what was that?

• 2:11:53Speaker 02

  And how, and how much that sounds like Greek mythology, like these gods sort of mating with mankind.

• 2:12:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, and apparently it's still in the Ethiopian Bible. The Ethiopian Bible has the, all of the books of Enoch, all the different tales of the watchers and the Book of the Watchers and all that stuff where they came down and mate with the daughters of men. Created the Nephilim, that's in the Ethiopian Bible.

• 2:12:20Speaker 02

  That is so trippy.

• 2:12:21Speaker 01

  It's so trippy.

• 2:12:22Speaker 02

  It's so trippy, and then they create the Nephilim.

• 2:12:24Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:12:25Speaker 02

  And then you get into the Timothy Alberino stories, which, you know, I know he was on your podcast where there might be giants in Afghanistan that the air force has encountered in the early 2000s, and you had Devin LaRott on as well. You know, was he a famous arm wrestler, is that right?

• 2:12:40Speaker 01

  Who served for the Canadian Special Forces in Afghanistan and saw a man that was like massive. He said he was like eight feet tall.

• 2:12:48Speaker 02

  And I think a mutual friend of ours, Brigham Buehler, shout out ways to well, they're the best. Uh, he has an employee who also, I think, was Special Forces in Afghanistan. And he says that there were, there were, I think, you know, large beings there, like giants there as well. So it's like a bunch of like anecdotal, and that's just us, that's just, you know, so.

• 2:13:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's fucking super weird. And do you know that these, uh, the, the latest, um, take on the Denisovans or Denisovans, however you want to say it? Um, you know, which is a very recent discovery. Uh, I think the first even recognition that there was another type of human called Denisovan, I think that's how they pronounce it. I always say Denisovan. They believe they might be much larger than human beings now. They used to think that they were squat, like Neanderthals and thick brows and, but now they realize their heads were much larger than ours. And that these could potentially have been eight foot tall people.

• 2:13:54Speaker 02

  I didn't realize that, that's crazy.

• 2:13:56Speaker 01

  This is fairly recent. So when was the, put this into perspect, uh, perplexity? When was the discovery of Denisovans or Denisovans?

• 2:14:08Speaker 01

  I want to say it's real recent, like maybe 2016 or something like that, like real recent. Where they didn't even know that there was this branch of the human species.

• 2:14:21Speaker 02

  I feel like we've discovered a large percentage of hominids in the last one year.

• 2:14:25Speaker 01

  There you go. Okay, so, okay, they found it in Siberia in 2008. Um, it was identified as a previously unknown group of archaic humans in 2010. The key fossil, small finger bones, been excavated from the Denisova Cave in Siberia in 2008. But DNA analysis published in 2010 revealed it belonged to a population distinct from both the Neanderthals and modern humans. Um, I think they have more now than just the finger bone. And I think that is where they're getting at. Um, I think they have skulls. Uh, varies wide, but, uh, highest known, oh, this is people who have the DNA.

• 2:15:06Speaker 01

  So Denisova DNA estimations, Melanian populations, especially people with ancestry in Papua New Guinea and nearby Pacific islands, roughly four to six percent of their genomes. That's interesting.

• 2:15:21Speaker 01

  Um, what, uh, let's find out how many bones they have available. Cause I think there's, I think there's brow ridge bones and there's skull bones. That seemed to indicate that it had a larger, larger skull than humans. And they think, how much bone has been recovered or found? Let's find out. Do, do, do, do. Very little. Uh, Denisovans are known for a small number of fragmentary fossils, not complete skeletons.

• 2:15:55Speaker 01

  Do they have skull, they have a mandible? Uh, partial lower jaw from the Tibetan Plateau. It was identified as Denisovan through ancient protein analysis rather than recoverable Denisovan DNA.

• 2:16:11Speaker 01

  No complete Denisovan skull or skeleton. Um, just Google, I mean, uh, excuse me, search for me.

• 2:16:21Speaker 01

  Denisovan skull, like, see if there's images. Cause I think there's a brow.

• 2:16:29Speaker 01

  The problem is, is like you're, you're looking for stuff, yeah. So like, what is that? Is that just a recreation of what it looks like?

• 2:16:36Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 2:16:37Speaker 01

  It seems like a recreation. But this is what they think it looked like.

• 2:16:41Speaker 02

  It's like a Eugene Levy situation.

• 2:16:43Speaker 01

  Huge eyebrows, look at the, the brow ridge.

• 2:16:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:16:47Speaker 01

  So how much is this real? And what, is this AI? Like, what is this?

• 2:16:52Speaker 02

  Well, I know.

• 2:16:53Speaker 01

  Is perplexity not caught up to the latest evidence, like?

• 2:16:56Speaker 02

  In Peru, Paracas skulls are 30% higher volume, I think, often than normal skulls.

• 2:17:03Speaker 01

  Some of them are, right.

• 2:17:04Speaker 02

  Some of them are, yeah.

• 2:17:05Speaker 01

  The weird shit with the elongated heads, that gets real weird. This has a fairly elongated head as well, but it's, uh, not like upwardly. It's, it seems to like move towards the back, but it's a pretty large, so is that an actual?

• 2:17:23Speaker 01

  So if that's an actual Denisovan skull, it seems like perplexity is relying on older data or older papers.

• 2:17:35Speaker 01

  Cause I, I do think that this is part of why they're saying that they think they might have been much larger.

• 2:17:44Speaker 01

  What's going on? This is natural history, what is being eaten?

• 2:17:49Speaker 03

  This is a hyena bone.

• 2:17:51Speaker 01

  That they were eating hyena bones?

• 2:17:52Speaker 03

  See, like I just pulled this picture off of this website, I don't know if.

• 2:17:55Speaker 01

  Okay, fossil evidence of a mysterious southern Denisovans yet to be found.

• 2:18:01Speaker 03

  A replica of a Homo erectus cranium, so.

• 2:18:04Speaker 01

  Okay, that's from Indonesia.

• 2:18:06Speaker 03

  I know, but I'm just saying that's, this picture showed up and.

• 2:18:08Speaker 01

  Right, so that's what that is. But what, so what is that image of the prominent brow ridge, like that one, yeah?

• 2:18:14Speaker 03

  I know, it's, I'm trying to track it down, it's coming from a Nature article that I couldn't get into, it's paywalled. So if they haven't found this much, then I think

• 2:18:24Speaker 03

  based off of the pictures I'm seeing, they probably built it off of this tooth they found. And then expanded out to here, cause there's a little picture of a tooth right there, but.

• 2:18:31Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:18:32Speaker 03

  I don't know.

• 2:18:33Speaker 01

  Uh, so that seems like a jawbone that they found.

• 2:18:39Speaker 01

  So if that, if it turns, and again, we're talking about something that's recently discovered. They, they only knew that this thing existed 16 years ago, which is really a part of the problem with this whole term fossil record. You know, we like to think of the fossil record as being a library, it's not. It's like, it's really limited in terms of like how many things that die leave fossils, it's a tiny fraction.

• 2:19:02Speaker 02

  Same with the archaeological record, it's the same thing.

• 2:19:05Speaker 01

  Well, at least the archaeological record, we have physical stuff. Like we can look at, you know, Sose Wama, and we can look at the pyramids, we can, we don't really know what happened and who built it, but at least there's like physical stuff there that defies explanation.

• 2:19:18Speaker 02

  But if you have a cataclysm.

• 2:19:19Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 2:19:21Speaker 02

  And we probably did during the Ice Age, you know?

• 2:19:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, more than likely, more than likely. The idea that we didn't have a cataclysm seems silly at this point. It seems like there's, there's so much physical evidence.

• 2:19:32Speaker 02

  And it's almost like the longer we go, the more hominids we find, and the longer we go, the older things get archaeologically.

• 2:19:39Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:19:39Speaker 02

  And it's actually predictable, like it makes sense that both of those would be the case. Like obviously our abilities to like map and have sensors and like figure this stuff out is increasing and lower in the sediment layer of any sort of dig is going to be like older stuff.

• 2:19:55Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:19:55Speaker 02

  So archaeology is 200 years old, literally the, the discoveries of the, you know, Babylonian cities 200 years ago, and the Syrian cities, yeah.

• 2:20:03Speaker 04

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  Takes a few minutes to sign up. Chime is a fintech, not a bank. Banking services and Chime card provided by Chime's bank partners. Terms and limits apply. Go to chime.com/disclosures for more details. Have you seen, I think he's an Italian guy. There is a new paper that's being published about the dating of the pyramids. And he's relying on erosion evidence?

• 2:21:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think relative erosion method.

• 2:21:47Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:21:47Speaker 02

  Donini, I think is his name.

• 2:21:49Speaker 01

  That's exactly him. And he pushes it way back.

• 2:21:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:21:54Speaker 01

  He pushes it back as recently as, oh god, I want to say like 16,000. And then the high end is 35,000 plus.

• 2:22:04Speaker 02

  That's right. Yeah, it's crazy.

• 2:22:06Speaker 01

  Which is like, what? What are you talking about? Like, this is a 35,000-year-old building? What does that even mean? Who?

• 2:22:16Speaker 03

  Speaking of, did you see that they retracted this?

• 2:22:18Speaker 01

  Oh, Filippo Biondi. Yes, he contacted me about this. He's very upset.

• 2:22:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:22:22Speaker 01

  They retracted it without any explanation, without any justification?

• 2:22:29Speaker 02

  My, I'd like to call it nuanced take, is that I think, I don't think he's lying. I don't think he's a fraud. But I think that he needs to just open source his method. Because basically you have this synthetic aperture radar Doppler tomography, which is, synthetic aperture radar is a known technique for radar imaging. And it radar images at like very fine resolution. And then you have this ability to measure microvibrations that transmit into the satellite signal. The thing that is only his, his and only his, is this Biondi method, which is this software where he is able to deduce these structures underneath the earth based on that.

• 2:23:12Speaker 02

  So do I think he's lying about the Gran Sasso laboratory, which is this other sort of, I think, particle accelerator national lab out there that he was able to like perfectly measure and...

• 2:23:23Speaker 01

  1.2 kilometers into a mountain.

• 2:23:25Speaker 02

  Into a mountain.

• 2:23:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:23:26Speaker 02

  I would really hope not, and I don't think so. And, but then at the same time, I think it's like, dude, you gotta, like you're talking about like a Nobel Prize or something here? Like, just let it out. Like, either you either have to get really, really rich and keep it closed source, or the preference that I would have, and I think that would be best for humanity, is just open source the thing. And, you know, I think it's his life's work, so I think he's a little possessive around it. But that would be the one thing where I'm like, dude, just let it, let it out, or let somebody else replicate it.

• 2:23:58Speaker 01

  Interesting. Because they've used this method to identify structures that are known to exist. And they, right?

• 2:24:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I think the, what is it? The Osiris shaft, I think?

• 2:24:13Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:24:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 2:24:14Speaker 01

  So, and it's, and it got the right dimensions. And if it's correct, and if he's telling the truth about what it was able to deem from the particle accelerator, when it was looking at the particle accelerator. It got the exact dimensions of it, it knew where it was. And so, it's like...

• 2:24:33Speaker 02

  We need to dig.

• 2:24:35Speaker 01

  We need to do something. Well, there's all those, that's the one thing that he brought up on the podcast, those shafts that exist around there. That have been filled up with debris and sand and dirt over time. That they need to clean that shit out and get down in there and find out. Like, what is, because we know that there's all these subterranean tunnels and passages that are all around Egypt. Like, for sure, they know that that labyrinth exists.

• 2:25:01Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:25:02Speaker 01

  That Herodotus discovered and that he talked about in great detail. They knew, they know from ground penetrating radar, these great chambers in there.

• 2:25:11Speaker 02

  Even Zahi Hawass will admit that there are tunnels underneath the Sphinx.

• 2:25:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:25:15Speaker 02

  So like, yeah, I think more likely than not, there is something underneath the pyramids.

• 2:25:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:25:20Speaker 02

  And then we just have to dig. We gotta get down there. And if you're Egypt and you're the Ministry of Culture, that's the most GDP-boosting thing you could think of.

• 2:25:28Speaker 01

  Oh god. Could you imagine if both, is it, what's the other guy's name? The Italian guy, the erosion guy?

• 2:25:37Speaker 02

  I think Donini.

• 2:25:38Speaker 01

  Donini. If Donini and Biondi, first of all, what a great fucking Italian duo. Like, if these two guys from Italy have cracked two different things, one of them with erosion science and the other one with the ground penetrating Doppler tomography. If those guys are correct, you're gonna have like a gigantic group of new people that want to come and check out Egypt.

• 2:26:02Speaker 02

  That would be so awesome, yeah.

• 2:26:04Speaker 01

  But you have to get past these gatekeepers of the timeline. The gatekeepers of the timeline really want to insist that 2,500 B.C. is about as good as it gets.

• 2:26:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it's like, it's all good. It's the land that modern Egypt is on. Like, it's fine. Like, you can sort of like take pride in the fact, even if it's older and it's not necessarily like...

• 2:26:26Speaker 01

  It's still Egypt.

• 2:26:27Speaker 02

  It's still Egypt. It's amazing.

• 2:26:28Speaker 01

  That's what's really dumb about the critics of these theories. They all want to attribute it to a bunch of different people. Like, you and I are fucking alien kooks. And we're not trying to. We're saying like, no, it's probably people had a super advanced civilization in that part of the world a long time ago. And what you're getting is multiple generations of people after the fact trying to recreate some of these ancient structures. And these ancient structures probably predated whatever civilization existed at 2,500 B.C.

• 2:27:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, and you have to throw spaghetti at the wall. Like, it's like, it's your duty to speculate. Because the conventional narratives don't make any sense.

• 2:27:10Speaker 01

  At all.

• 2:27:10Speaker 02

  At all. And you have people grasping, it's rather, there's a French guy, Jean-Pierre Hudin, who is like, you know, civil engineering chops. And he's talking about like an external ramp, but then an external ramp would, you know, the incline would be too, too high for these, you know, megaton bricks, you know, blocks. So then you end up with an internal ramp as well. So it's like, we are, that is like the best explanation, right? Conventionally. And so, let's, let's try to figure it out. And let's be a little creative and we don't need to like, you know, stay so narrow. Like, all these skeptics are like, they're, you know, attack dogs. For what?

• 2:27:47Speaker 01

  Well, the problem is they don't want these Jimmy Corsetti's and Michael Buttons and all of these people that have enormous following online to have any point. They don't want that. They want to dismiss them outright. Which is why they always use the same pejoratives. They always call them racists and the white supremacy is one that they have attached to Graham, which is hilarious because he's married to an Indian woman. I mean, it's, the whole thing is so stupid.

• 2:28:15Speaker 02

  So crazy.

• 2:28:16Speaker 01

  He's the most non-racist person you're ever gonna meet in your life. He's just completely open-minded. And also, that doesn't take away all the factual data. All the stuff that's like, the stuff that's really weird, that's hard to describe. When you're talking about a structure that is perfectly aligned, almost, to true north, south, east and west, and has 2,300,000 stones, and used to be covered in smooth limestone, and somehow or another was the greatest structure that human beings have ever created, and is bare minimum 4,500 years old. That is a mindfuck. And anybody who says that's not a mindfuck,

• 2:28:59Speaker 01

  and when you're talking about some of the stones, like particularly in the King's Chamber, that are hundreds of tons, or 100 tons, or 80 tons, or whatever they are, and it's from hundreds of miles away, through the mountains, with no roads, no heavy machinery, and they're placed way the fuck up on the ceiling of this place, perfectly.

• 2:29:22Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 2:29:23Speaker 01

  There's also the weird mindfuck of the sarcophagus in the King's Chamber, which aligns with the same dimensions where you could fit the Ark of the Covenant in it.

• 2:29:34Speaker 02

  No way.

• 2:29:34Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:29:35Speaker 02

  Really?

• 2:29:35Speaker 01

  Oh, there's a lot of people that believe this. There's a real problem with the measuring of radioactivity too. They tried to say there's, there's a higher level of radioactivity inside the sarcophagus than in the outer walls. But the problem is, when people talk about radiation and stones, like stones are, they have a certain level of radiation just inherently. You know, like, you can, like... The sun has radiation.

• 2:30:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:30:02Speaker 01

  Like, there's, there's-

• 2:30:03Speaker 02

  Like, Geiger counters can go off.

• 2:30:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:30:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:30:05Speaker 01

  But, the, the people that are like, the rea- they're really out there. They think that that might have been the positioning for the Ark of the Covenant. And that it measures, like, if you look at the Bible's description of the dimensions of the Ark of the Covenant, it fits conveniently inside the sarcophagus in the King's Chamber.

• 2:30:23Speaker 02

  Whoa, that's crazy.

• 2:30:25Speaker 01

  It is crazy. What's also crazy that Graham believes that the Ethiopian Bible and the, the, these Ethiopian religious people who have, uh, supposedly this group of people that are supposed to watch over the Ark of the Covenant. And that they are in possession of it, and that these people that watch over it, they all develop cataracts, and they can only do it for a little while, and then they wind up dying. So they have, like, short tenures as the watchers of this, whatever the fuck this object is, that they're calling the Ark of the Covenant.

• 2:30:58Speaker 02

  Stories of their faces getting mangled if they walk inside. He was so afraid, this was actually, I think, one of his first articles for, like, a magazine-

• 2:31:05Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 2:31:05Speaker 02

  Before he got into all this stuff.

• 2:31:06Speaker 01

  This is how it got him into it in the first place.

• 2:31:07Speaker 02

  Got into it in the first place. You know, another crazy story is, um, I think it's, uh, Sir James Bruce was looking for the Ark of the Covenant, and he found the Book of Enoch, but he was searching for the Ark of the Covenant. But, yeah, they think it's in Axum, Ethiopia, and there are Templar crosses, I believe, on a church there as well. And so, and Graham talks about this, and so that's his connection, because they, you know, there are obviously legends of the Templars being these sort of knights that guarded, you know, uh, you know, after, after the destruction of the temple, the Ark of the Covenant, and so maybe they actually did make it all the way down to Ethiopia.

• 2:31:42Speaker 01

  Which is wild.

• 2:31:43Speaker 02

  It's so wild.

• 2:31:44Speaker 01

  If that thing was actually in the center of the sarcophagus in the King's Chamber, in the pyramid, whatever that thing is.

• 2:31:53Speaker 02

  It's, uh, it's so, I mean, the, the one maybe counter-argument, or something I'd be curious about, would be the Nazis were obsessed with the Ark of the Covenant, like, the Indiana Jones plot is, like, legit.

• 2:32:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:32:06Speaker 02

  Like, Himmler would go on these weird quests or whatever around this stuff. And I guess Italy and Ethiopia had that war around, around that time, I believe, right? Or, like, why wouldn't the Nazis just go in and try to take this object?

• 2:32:21Speaker 01

  Maybe they weren't aware.

• 2:32:22Speaker 02

  Maybe they weren't aware, who knows?

• 2:32:24Speaker 03

  This guy, Olendorf, says he went and saw it in 1941.

• 2:32:27Speaker 01

  Oh! What?

• 2:32:28Speaker 03

  And that it's, uh, a replica.

• 2:32:31Speaker 01

  He stated that he gained access in 1941, because he spoke classic, ooh, how do you say that? Geez? And appeared serious, however, he asserted the box inside was empty, and described it as an empty middle-to-late medieval replica, rather than the true biblical artifact. So he's the only guy that's gained access, and this was in 1941. He's a British officer during World War II, and later a professor of Ethiopian studies at the University of London. Interesting.

• 2:33:00Speaker 02

  I want to know the details, like, how does he know that it's an artifact?

• 2:33:05Speaker 01

  Or it's a replica.

• 2:33:06Speaker 02

  Or it's, yeah, oh, sorry, that's a replica, rather, yeah.

• 2:33:08Speaker 03

  There are, I did look this up just, I think, yesterday.

• 2:33:11Speaker 01

  Oh, you did? Rabbit Hole, Jamie, Captain Rabbit Hole over here.

• 2:33:15Speaker 03

  I was, I was, I found on this rabbit hole, because I was trying to find out where it happened to the, uh, staff of Moses. I was just, was thinking about weird things that existed in history. And also the Ark of the Covenant. Last time it was actually known where it was was 586 B.C.

• 2:33:29Speaker 01

  Ooh.

• 2:33:30Speaker 03

  So, like, when Jesus was around, no one knew where it was.

• 2:33:34Speaker 01

  That's interesting. 586, so hundreds of years before his-

• 2:33:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, 600 years before Jesus.

• 2:33:39Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 2:33:40Speaker 02

  Whoa, yeah, I know, the walls of Jericho were supposed to come down, I think, through the Ark of the Covenant.

• 2:33:45Speaker 03

  Babylonian, uh, destruction of Jerusalem, they tore down the cathedral. Which also, I stumbled across something called the Madaba map, have you ever heard of that?

• 2:33:54Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:33:55Speaker 03

  Uh, it was found, it's a mosaic of, like, ancient Jerusalem found around 6 C.E.

• 2:34:06Speaker 03

  And it shows, I've, I've never heard of this before, so I was actually trying to show you, like, the best way to describe it, but it's all in, like, ancient Greece. It was a mosaic underneath the floor in a different church that they found while they were about to make a new church. So they were doing, like, reconstruction, and they found this map of ancient, it's pointing things out here. This isn't the best way to describe it, I'm sorry, but, um, they've mapped it all and found things that, that, I think it was found in, like, 1895, right around turn of the century. So it shows, like, where Jerusalem was, where all these things are in reference to each other, and all these places that were in the Bible and whatnot.

• 2:34:44Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 2:34:45Speaker 03

  And I guess people didn't know about them, and that's when some of the stuff, you know, getting validated. Jordan's Madaba map.

• 2:34:51Speaker 01

  That's what it looks like? That's the actual image of it?

• 2:34:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's really, I mean, it's, it's old-school, you know, I guess, tiles and little pieces of fragments of different things that is artistic, was covered up probably multiple times.

• 2:35:04Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 2:35:05Speaker 02

  So wild.

• 2:35:06Speaker 01

  Well, then there's the weirdness of the Ark of the Covenant. And the dimensions match this object that's on Mount Ararat, which is exactly where supposedly it landed in the Bible.

• 2:35:17Speaker 02

  What?

• 2:35:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:35:18Speaker 02

  Really?

• 2:35:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's a bunch of people that firmly believe that this object on Mount Ararat, is that the, uh, Moses's staff?

• 2:35:25Speaker 03

  Uh, this one is, so this, it, it turns out, let's, I don't know if this is real, this is where I was, the rabbit hole was getting real weird here. It's in a, a palace in Istanbul, I believe, where there's other relics. It's like the Palace of Relics or something like that. There's, uh, the sword of the prophet David from 10s B.C. Somehow they got, you know, David and Goliath.

• 2:35:49Speaker 01

  What?

• 2:35:50Speaker 03

  The King David.

• 2:35:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:35:51Speaker 03

  And there's a bunch of things from Muhammad there, there's, like, a piece of a tooth, a piece of a beard, um...

• 2:35:58Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 2:35:58Speaker 03

  And that's really, I don't, to say it's not real, I don't know, it just looks like a stick, but the biblical, like, uh, descriptions of it are that it turned into a serpent, serpent at one point. You know, this is what parted the Red Sea.

• 2:36:13Speaker 01

  Hmm. Go to the Mount Ararat stuff, because the Mount Ararat stuff is really weird. There, there's even, like, a whole touristy center that you can go there, where they describe it as being the, the, the landing spot of Noah's Ark. But apparently, what's weird is the, um, analysis of the ground underneath it, and that there's organic material that aligns with the, the dimensions of the boat.

• 2:36:41Speaker 02

  No way.

• 2:36:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:36:42Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 2:36:43Speaker 01

  It's really weird. Well, just the object itself, like, whatever the fuck that is.

• 2:36:46Speaker 02

  Oh, this is in eastern Turkey.

• 2:36:48Speaker 01

  It's, yes, it's on Mount Ararat.

• 2:36:50Speaker 02

  I've heard about, yeah, yeah.

• 2:36:50Speaker 01

  Just the dimensions itself, fucking weird. Like, what is that thing that's up there? And so when they anal- analyze it, like, you see, it, it has, like, what appears to be chambers, and then also what, what appears to be the remnants of some sort of organic material, which would be wood, that was just, that was used to construction of this thing.

• 2:37:12Speaker 02

  That's so-

• 2:37:13Speaker 01

  There was something recent about it, though. See if you can find, like, news, go to news.

• 2:37:18Speaker 03

  This is what I thought I saw, I saw this, and I don't, uh, I'd just seen this video where someone's inside, and they're claiming, uh, this has got to be a claim, because I don't know the, how they got here, and where this video came from.

• 2:37:32Speaker 01

  He's going, it's, this is the same guy made the UFO video.

• 2:37:34Speaker 03

  And like, they're showing, I think, when you get down here, they show, like, pieces of wood.

• 2:37:38Speaker 01

  That's Noah's dick right there.

• 2:37:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. He's showing pieces of wood?

• 2:37:43Speaker 03

  Or what looks, I mean, it's, uh-

• 2:37:45Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 2:37:45Speaker 02

  Noah Ark scans.

• 2:37:48Speaker 01

  God, how much wood is left from 2,000 years ago? Or more, right?

• 2:37:52Speaker 03

  I saw the piece on Instagram, I think, where it was not the entire 45-minute video.

• 2:37:56Speaker 01

  There was some news of the analysis of that, that I saw online.

• 2:38:05Speaker 01

  April 22nd, that's my bad. Researcher believes Noah's Ark found in Turkey after new underground scans. Yeah. So researchers working in Turkey say, "Fresh scan data," and this is from April, "uncovered what appears to be tunnels inside the long-debated landform, bolstering their case that the site may be a man-made object they believe to be Noah's Ark. I do believe this is real decayed, buried remnants of Noah's Ark, the famous ship, and we're doing our best to convince the skeptics and show the world this site."

• 2:38:35Speaker 02

  The tricky thing is, for carbon dating, you do need organic material.

• 2:38:41Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. And not only that, it's like, the tricky thing is, like, the whole story doesn't make sense. You take two of each animal, and then what happens? Animals eat other animals, so how does that work out?

• 2:38:52Speaker 02

  You've got to treat it-

• 2:38:53Speaker 01

  You know, in the Bible, they're supposedly waited, they waited until the animals, uh, gave birth to a bunch of different, before they ate them.

• 2:38:59Speaker 02

  It's insane.

• 2:39:00Speaker 01

  Okay, what? What, are you a kid?

• 2:39:05Speaker 01

  It's just like, I mean, it literally sounds like, uh, you know, like a child wrote a story.

• 2:39:10Speaker 02

  It's very, very goofy, but then you get into the fact that there are, like, 400 or so flood myths across disparate cultures, some of whom have never had contact with one another.

• 2:39:19Speaker 01

  Yes, definitely. And then you also get into the idea that it's not maybe the whole world that flooded, it's this immediate area. And that this idea of he took two of each animal, maybe he just took enough animals so he could sustain agriculture afterwards, and these other animals did not go extinct.

• 2:39:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:39:37Speaker 01

  And then maybe the story over time becomes, he got fucking giraffes walked there from Africa. Like, where, where are you getting horses? You know, how, how are you getting eagles? Like, how are you getting everybody on this thing? It doesn't even make sense.

• 2:39:51Speaker 02

  And real discoveries are often motivated by myth, like, motivated by Homer and Herodotus, stories about the Peloponnesian War, you had this guy, a German businessman, Heinrich von Schliemann, spent all his money looking for Troy, and he eventually found it.

• 2:40:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, which is wild.

• 2:40:08Speaker 02

  Wild. Another story would be, you know, um, Plato talking about this flood, he's talking about it in the Atlantis context. Obviously, it's a, it's a dialogue, um, and it's, I think, the Timaeus and Cretaeus dialogue. And thi- this is told at a Mythos festival, uh, 600 B.C., and they say 9,000 years ago, this great flood happened, and then you line it up, and that that's Meltwater Puls 1B, which is probably the flood that got us out of the Ice Age. So, to discount myth entirely as, like, non-historical, I think is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

• 2:40:40Speaker 01

  Right, the timeline aligns with the great, with the theory of the Younger Dryas impact theory.

• 2:40:45Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 2:40:46Speaker 01

  The Great Flood and the Younger Dryas impact theory align with the timeline that Plato, how the fuck could Plato have known when he's saying 9,000 years? Like, how, how is it so perfectly aligned?

• 2:40:57Speaker 02

  That, uh, it seems a little convenient.

• 2:40:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think if there was a Noah's Ark, it was probably, well, first of all, how does he know it's coming? How long does it take to make this boat? You know, that's where it gets really weird, like, does this guy actually have a premonition?

• 2:41:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:41:11Speaker 01

  Is he actually, like, attuned to some sort of psychic energy? Or does God, or for lack of a better term, actually talk to this guy?

• 2:41:20Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:41:20Speaker 01

  And say, "Hey, dude, some shit is about to go down." And didn't it take him-

• 2:41:26Speaker 01

  I want to say the biblical account is it took him 100 years to make it.

• 2:41:30Speaker 02

  Oh, I don't even know. I know that is back when they were like living for hundreds and

• 2:41:35Speaker 01

  Hundreds of years.

• 2:41:36Speaker 03

  His father was 777 years old and was 182 when he had Noah.

• 2:41:40Speaker 01

  Normal. Normal stuff.

• 2:41:44Speaker 02

  David Sinclair, help us, let's get back there.

• 2:41:46Speaker 01

  Well, this is, this is the real thought is if David Sinclair is correct, and I think he is, if they can figure out a way to somehow another access whatever part of the human genome allows us to age or causes us to age and reverse that or change that. Why do we not know that if you got a civilization that could build the pyramids, how do we not know that these people were also capable of extending lifespan?

• 2:42:13Speaker 02

  A hundred percent. Yeah. And if knowledge gets lost and we're now figuring out horvath clocks, DNA methylation clocks, biological age versus chronological age.

• 2:42:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:42:23Speaker 02

  I'm sure you talked to Brigham about all sorts of like novel crazy things he's looking into with stem cells.

• 2:42:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:42:29Speaker 02

  You know, and the amazing things they do, like, why was that not necessarily discovered before and just erased from the historical record?

• 2:42:36Speaker 01

  Easily could have been.

• 2:42:37Speaker 02

  It could have been.

• 2:42:38Speaker 01

  If, if there is a cataclysmic disaster and we do have a hyper advanced civilization that's capable of engineering feats that we still can't replicate today, which I think is the case, because there's a lot of people that say, we could build the pyramids today. Fuck you. Okay, fuck you.

• 2:42:53Speaker 02

  Do it.

• 2:42:53Speaker 01

  No one has.

• 2:42:54Speaker 02

  Do it.

• 2:42:54Speaker 01

  Go do it. Go do it. Shut your mouth. The biblical account, Noah and his family were in the ark for about a year, often calculated as roughly 370 days. Wow, they were in that boat for a fucking year?

• 2:43:06Speaker 02

  That's crazy.

• 2:43:07Speaker 01

  Bro, that sucks. You think those guys are stuck in Iran have it bad? Genesis dates their entry to the 17th day of the second month of Noah's 600th year and their exit on the 27th day of the second month of his 601st year. It rained for 40 days and 40 nights.

• 2:43:29Speaker 01

  How long did it take him to build the ark? Says 120 years? Does not give a precise construction time. The commonly repeated 120 years is a traditional interpretation of Genesis 6:3 rather than explicit statement that construction itself lasted 120 years.

• 2:43:52Speaker 01

  Well, it's all, you know, you're getting into, when you're getting into ages like that, what's really weird is it's not just the Christian Bible or the Old Testament or that has these long extended lifespans. That's where you get really weird because both the ancient Egyptians, when, you know, the zepteti, and then when you get into the ancient Sumerians, kings list, like they're, when you go the further back, these motherfuckers were living thousands and thousands of years, raining for thousands of years. And then after the flood, you start seeing ages align with modern human ages. Which is really weird. Really weird.

• 2:44:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:44:32Speaker 01

  It's like, okay, what, and so the way archaeologists dismiss it, they say, oh, that was just myth. But you're, along with this myth, particularly with the Sumerians, you have actual historical kings that had actual historical reigns that are depicted in the same, the same texts. So like, what's going on?

• 2:44:55Speaker 02

  A hundred percent. And there, I, I think natural selection is a real theory. There are people who like deny it, and I think it is a locally extremely useful, legit theory. But there's a great philosopher of science called Carl Popper, and he had this whole thing of, he called them materialist promissory notes, where you have issues in evolution, natural selection, you have punctuated equilibria, this sort of rapid speciation in the fossil record, things that are very hard to explain, and we just like to fill in the gaps. And we don't know, you know, there was actually a really interesting German guy named, I think it was Richard Goldschmidt, and he had this idea of, he was an evolutionary theorist, and he had this idea of hopeful monsters.

• 2:45:38Speaker 02

  And so you'd get these mating between interspecies. So, you know, a mule would be a good example, or like a tiger and a like a liger. And every once, once in a while, like, it would like hit this ecological niche and like, you know, actually make sense for the local ecology, and then it would sort of persist. And I think he's largely been debunked, but I spoke with this DARPA dude who was like, I can say this because I, we didn't end up pursuing it. But you know the movie, The Shape of Water, the Guillermo del Toro? He was like, at one point, we were thinking about stuff like that, like interspecies. Yeah. And I don't, I don't know if it was like humans and other species, but it was like inspired by this guy, Richard Goldschmidt.

• 2:46:21Speaker 01

  Well, you know, the Russians were considering making a hybrid between a human and a chimpanzee for war.

• 2:46:27Speaker 02

  That's cra- I know Putin's talked about killer dolphins.

• 2:46:31Speaker 01

  No, this was, uh, God, was it World War II? It was World War II, right? So it was World War II. Who was it? Was it Stalin?

• 2:46:42Speaker 02

  That's crazy.

• 2:46:44Speaker 03

  I don't know if we would know officially, I just remember the guy was doing it on his own for sure.

• 2:46:49Speaker 02

  Would have been Stalin.

• 2:46:51Speaker 01

  See, see if you can find it. So they were, so the idea was like, look, Russia lost like 20 million men during World War II. And I think the idea is like, boy, wouldn't it be better if people didn't fucking die? Why don't we develop warriors? And so I think they were trying to make a human chimpanzee hybrid specifically designed for war.

• 2:47:14Speaker 03

  I don't know if it was official, because he got in, he got in trouble for seeking volun- like, um, not telling the female volunteers what was going on.

• 2:47:24Speaker 01

  Oh, Jesus. Can you imagine? Stay put, honey. I'm just gonna stick something up there and wonderful things will happen.

• 2:47:31Speaker 02

  Jesus Christ.

• 2:47:32Speaker 01

  Notorious Soviet era attempt, but no human ape hybrids were ever created, but yes, it was a real attempt. Russian Soviet biology, Ilya Ivanov, proposed using artificial insemination to test whether humans and great apes could produce offspring in the mid 1920s. Okay, so it was, um, after World War I. Uh, Soviet support, he traveled to French Guinea and inseminated several female chimpanzees with human sperm. None became pregnant. He later sought to reverse the experiment by inseminating women with ape sperm. Historical accounts indicate he considered doing so without consent in Guinea, but colonial authorities blocked the plan.

• 2:48:12Speaker 01

  Back in Russia, he sought female volunteers, but the available adult male ape died before the procedure could occur, so no such insemination proceeded.

• 2:48:23Speaker 02

  Sounds like a great person.

• 2:48:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, what a great guy. Wonderful dude. But it's like, kind of crazy that that was, I mean, imagine if it worked and then they just created like a million of them and just armed them.

• 2:48:38Speaker 02

  Well, also, where are we headed with CRISPR and the ability to, you know,

• 2:48:43Speaker 01

  Right, to do that.

• 2:48:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:48:45Speaker 01

  Right. Well, also, what the fuck is gonna stop them from turning around and taking over Russia? Like, why would they listen to you?

• 2:48:52Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:48:53Speaker 01

  Like, you're giving them guns, they're way more violent, they're super territorial, they're way stronger. And also, they're gonna recognize that you made them to go die. And they're gonna be really resentful of these fucking pink little fleshy fucking water balloons of, of meat and tissue that are so vulnerable compared to them.

• 2:49:14Speaker 02

  It's like, yeah, it's like, you created me.

• 2:49:16Speaker 01

  It's like, it's like. Planet of the Apes.

• 2:49:18Speaker 02

  It's, it's Planet of the Apes. It's, it's also the way people talk about AI. It's like very analogous.

• 2:49:23Speaker 01

  Very much so.

• 2:49:24Speaker 02

  You know?

• 2:49:24Speaker 01

  Very much so, yeah. It's, uh, we are always meddling.

• 2:49:29Speaker 02

  We're always meddling.

• 2:49:30Speaker 01

  And which makes me think something more advanced would probably meddle with us.

• 2:49:35Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 2:49:35Speaker 01

  Just do it a little bit more subtly.

• 2:49:37Speaker 02

  And they would do it at the bound, like, it makes sense that UFOs to me would show up around nuclear sites because those are the Archimedes lever of destruction on our, those are the points of most leverage, the hinge points of civilizational collapse. It is not a coincidence that Mario and Michael were abducted at Ellsworth Air Force Base and saw this thing hovering above a live hydrogen bomb. That feels like it makes sense.

• 2:50:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:50:03Speaker 02

  You know? And it, like, if you were governing a system, you would look at those nodes.

• 2:50:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:50:09Speaker 02

  You look at the, actually, there's a, a great neuroscientist named Don Hoffman, and he says if you're like, guard, if you're a simulator and you're guarding the simulation, you look at the exit paths. So I think about two exit paths in our sort of simulation. One would be high energy physics. So particle accelerators, high voltage experimentation and nuclear, like real, like stuff where you're really pushing at the boundaries of spacetime. So I think that's why these things show up at national labs, nuclear sites, a lot of like really hardcore kind of experimentation. And then consciousness. I think that would be the other exit path. And so that's why I think these things show up when we're sort of communing with this higher thing.

• 2:50:48Speaker 01

  Right. And it also makes sense why they show up when you're sleeping. Right, like if you're having these encounters, like all these abduction experiences, the great many of them happen at night, right?

• 2:51:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it's an open question as to why is it evolutionarily adaptive as for us to sleep?

• 2:51:05Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:51:06Speaker 02

  It doesn't really make sense.

• 2:51:07Speaker 01

  It's terrible.

• 2:51:08Speaker 02

  It's terrible, and we're we sleep deeper than like most animals, and so we can be walked up on by predators.

• 2:51:14Speaker 01

  And there's so many nocturnal predators.

• 2:51:16Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 2:51:17Speaker 01

  What a stupid idea.

• 2:51:18Speaker 02

  Why wouldn't that get selected out? Maybe something important happens during sleep? Who knows?

• 2:51:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:51:24Speaker 02

  But like, it seems like, yeah, we don't understand any of that stuff, the dream, dreaming, sleeping, and it's probably adaptive in some way we don't understand.

• 2:51:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, and like, what is happening when we're sleeping? I told you about my crazy dream, the one crazy dream that I had that still to this day, kinda, it's very foggy now, because it's months and months after the fact, but that the day of that dream, I was shook.

• 2:51:49Speaker 02

  That almost.

• 2:51:50Speaker 01

  Really shook.

• 2:51:51Speaker 02

  It almost feels like, if I were to analyze that dream, it's like they were giving meat to these crocodiles in the water or something. So it was like, it was like our limbic sort of reptilian, because in every man, you have your sort of reptile self, and then you have your like more aspirational self or something. And maybe they were sort of like, holding that at bay, and they were, you said to me, you were like, these beings, these like future human, alien looking beings, were telling you like, this is a brittle experiment. Like, this whole thing you've got set up, this could end tomorrow, like, we're here sort of protecting you.

• 2:52:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, there was a very flimsy barrier between the crocodiles and whatever was in the water, and I was like, that's it? That's the only thing that's stopping? This is like a, like a fucking, like a traffic cone and some tape or something like that, like some plastic bars. It was like, no, I don't remember specifically, but it was like, I remember being very uncomfortable with how little protection there was to stop those things from coming out of the water.

• 2:52:52Speaker 02

  So fascinating.

• 2:52:53Speaker 01

  But also, the weirdness of them, like their bodies, they were like very slender and kinda tall, but like, no muscle at all, like no strength at all, and larger heads. And were very odd looking, almost Asian looking, very weird, and they were playing with me a little bit, like spooking me, ha ha. It was very strange, but it was so vivid. That's the weird part.

• 2:53:19Speaker 02

  That's what's so trippy to me, where I'm like, maybe it was an experience, it's hard to say, it's impossible to declaratively say it wasn't, right?

• 2:53:28Speaker 01

  It's hard to know what a dream is in the first place.

• 2:53:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:53:31Speaker 01

  Like, what is going on when you have vivid dreams in the first place?

• 2:53:34Speaker 02

  Totally. Yeah, what, yeah, what is that?

• 2:53:36Speaker 01

  It seems like you're working out problems, like a lot of times, people are working out issues, and that's why they say sleep on it. I think there's something to that old wives, you know, the, the old wisdom of sleep on it.

• 2:53:47Speaker 02

  It's almost like you're, because it does feel like sometimes, like, issues that you have come up in sleep, but you're almost like metabolizing them, or you're like, you're, you're like working them out by experiencing them, but in like a padded walls sort of way in the dream, where like, you don't want to work that out in 3D reality, and so it's sort of adaptive in that sense or something.

• 2:54:08Speaker 01

  Maybe, I don't know.

• 2:54:09Speaker 02

  Who knows, yeah.

• 2:54:10Speaker 01

  But it's weird that I've had so many dreams that have been, you know, even crazy dreams, like, wow, that was nuts, but nothing like kept me from going back to sleep.

• 2:54:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's what's so trippy about it, is like, you went and worked out right after, right?

• 2:54:21Speaker 01

  I had, I could not sleep, I laid in bed for like an hour afterwards, trying to go back to sleep, I'm like, I am not going back to sleep. Like, whatever the fuck that was, was way too real, like way more real than any dream I'd had before.

• 2:54:33Speaker 02

  If, if I was an alien or a future human, I would definitely visit you.

• 2:54:38Speaker 01

  Whatever it is, it, it, if, I mean, whether or not it's my imagination, just hit a burst of like serotonin and dopamine and neurochemicals and DMT or whatever it was, it created this very vivid thing, it's either that, my super hyperactive imagination, or an encounter. It's hard to know what it was, but what it was, was very different than any other dream that I've ever had before.

• 2:55:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I, that's, I think, that's a beautiful, like, that's all you can say about it.

• 2:55:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, but that's being honest.

• 2:55:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:55:10Speaker 01

  And that's, but it also is the problem with someone having a legitimate experience, like, how much do they elaborate? How much do they expand? How much do they try to justify their experience, rather than saying, I don't know what the fuck that was?

• 2:55:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, totally. I think, I think in many cases, the honest thing is, I don't know, I don't know what the beings were, I don't know where they were from. And it's so interesting that we snap to grid all of these experiences into this sort of alien motif, and it's why the Pentagon now uses non-human intelligence, which sounds kind of ridiculous, because it could be AI or an animal or something, but.

• 2:55:44Speaker 01

  I wonder why they changed that?

• 2:55:46Speaker 02

  I think they changed it because they don't know definitively that it's extraterrestrial, and the office that I think in bad faith likes to debunk this stuff, the All Domain Anomalies Resolution Office, that just likes to pour court, it's the modern Blue Book, basically, they often say, we have no evidence of extraterrestrial visitation, because they, they hinge it on that conclusion, that is a conclusion. There's a lot of anomalous data, there's stuff showing up at our nuclear sites everywhere.

• 2:56:13Speaker 01

  Donald Trump reportedly told the inner circle, aliens are living in Earth's oceans.

• 2:56:18Speaker 02

  I've heard he said that too, that also, he alluded to that, remember the Jersey drone flap in November of 2024? He kind of alluded to that, he goes, we know they're coming from a garage, it's a weird place, you know?

• 2:56:28Speaker 01

  It's a garage. We have no idea what they are, but they're in the ocean.

• 2:56:32Speaker 03

  This is according to Jack Osborne, who said, I think, to Andy Stumpf, and he said that he has got a friend that talks to Trump frequently.

• 2:56:42Speaker 02

  So, I know Jack's source, actually, and.

• 2:56:46Speaker 01

  Dun, dun, dun.

• 2:56:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, and I don't think he's lying.

• 2:56:51Speaker 01

  Well, this is also what multiple people have said, that there's something in the ocean, you know, and this is.

• 2:56:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, I, I just had on the Navy's chief oceanographer, who we just talked about, he was head of NOAA.

• 2:57:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I saw that.

• 2:57:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, and, you know, he talks about tons and tons of sightings, tons of Navy sightings, I mean, the, the three sightings that were popularized, the videos that were popularized in the 2017 New York Times article, which is, whether you like that article or not, they got some things wrong, very responsible for a lot of the modern kind of disclosure movement.

• 2:57:27Speaker 01

  Very responsible for people all of a sudden taking it seriously.

• 2:57:30Speaker 02

  A hundred percent, yeah, it slapped that credibility onto the whole issue, those were Navy cases, those were all Navy cases, the Nimitz sighting, Go Fast and Gimble were all Navy. And so, yeah, there's a long history, I mean, the Blue Gill Triple Prime thing I mentioned with Harold Malmgren was Navy as well, you know, you have Tim Burchett saying there are five or six hotspots, you know, on our, on ocean floors, and then you have Bob Lazar saying, you know, actually, that was taken out of context, you know, people are saying, the craft he worked on, the sports model was found in an archaeological dig, it was actually found on the seafloor. Yeah, and I think the Office of Naval Intelligence knows a lot about this whole topic, in fact, Jay Stratton.

• 2:58:07Speaker 01

  Where, where was the information that it was found on the seafloor?

• 2:58:10Speaker 02

  That's what he says, and I think he might have said Barry has like.

• 2:58:13Speaker 01

  Well, he said one of them came from an archaeological dig.

• 2:58:16Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:58:17Speaker 01

  But it wasn't the sport model?

• 2:58:19Speaker 02

  I think, I thought it was, oh, I don't know if it was, maybe it wasn't the sport, it wasn't the sport model.

• 2:58:24Speaker 01

  Old.

• 2:58:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:58:25Speaker 01

  He said, one of them, I was told, actually came from an archaeological dig, and it's really old.

• 2:58:30Speaker 02

  It might have not been the sport model, but he, but.

• 2:58:32Speaker 01

  That's the other weird thing.

• 2:58:33Speaker 02

  But he said it was the seafloor.

• 2:58:34Speaker 01

  The labyrinth.

• 2:58:36Speaker 02

  What is it?

• 2:58:36Speaker 01

  Herodotus described.

• 2:58:37Speaker 02

  There's a tic tac.

• 2:58:38Speaker 01

  Forty meter long tic tac shaped metallic object that's inside of some sort of an atrium.

• 2:58:45Speaker 02

  That's so crazy.

• 2:58:46Speaker 01

  Just a forty meter long piece of metal, that's thousands and thousands of years old, like, what are you talking about?

• 2:58:53Speaker 02

  It's so crazy.

• 2:58:53Speaker 01

  How the fuck do they have forty meters of metal back then? Like, what is that?

• 2:58:57Speaker 02

  It's so crazy.

• 2:58:58Speaker 01

  Forty meters is nuts.

• 2:58:59Speaker 02

  It's so nuts.

• 2:59:00Speaker 01

  Forty meters is almost a half a football field.

• 2:59:02Speaker 02

  Huge.

• 2:59:03Speaker 01

  It's fucking massive piece of metal.

• 2:59:05Speaker 02

  It's vertical.

• 2:59:06Speaker 01

  I do not know.

• 2:59:07Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:59:08Speaker 01

  I don't not know, but it's, it's shaped like, you know, like a craft.

• 2:59:13Speaker 02

  The other crazy thing.

• 2:59:14Speaker 01

  Imagine there's a fucking UFO under Egypt, and you just gotta dig and go get it.

• 2:59:18Speaker 02

  It'd be so wild. Well, the crazy thing, I know you've had, you're referring to a lot of Ben Van Kirkwijk's amazing, where he's been on your show a bunch. He, I think, went to Dandera and the hieroglyphics there, like, translate to Stargate?

• 2:59:31Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:59:32Speaker 02

  That's crazy.

• 2:59:33Speaker 01

  Like, what?

• 2:59:35Speaker 02

  And then I think Stargate, you know, takes place at the pyramid, the pyramid is literally a portal, and then if you combine that with the Christopher Dunn stuff, or the Beyonde stuff, where either it's a, you know, a, a generator of electricity, or there's this other guy, amazing guy, Jeffrey Drum, who talks about it as a chemical manufacturing plant.

• 2:59:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've seen him.

• 2:59:53Speaker 02

  You know, like, something was being done there, and maybe it had to do with some transcendent, you know, and then it obviously, you know, it somewhat maps to Orion's Belt as well, so. I don't know, maybe, and then Orion's Belt is the pathway that souls took in ancient times.

• 3:00:07Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 3:00:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:00:11Speaker 01

  It's, I never get tired of the subject.

• 3:00:14Speaker 02

  It's so fun.

• 3:00:14Speaker 01

  As long as there's new information that comes out, they got me hooked forever. It's like a stupid soap opera that I'll watch till I die.

• 3:00:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, I feel the same, it's, it's so like, and it's always like the, the cast of, there's so much drama too, and disclosure and stuff, and it's just, I don't know, it's, I, I, I do, I do think in our lifetime, we're gonna make a lot of progress on it.

• 3:00:34Speaker 01

  This is, Herodotus is, I hope so.

• 3:00:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:00:37Speaker 01

  Herodotus's description, it had twelve roofs, court, roofed courts, uh, courts, God, I can't talk, arranged in two rows, six facing north and six south, all enclosed by one outer law, outer wall, it contained three thousand chambers, fifteen hundred above ground and fifteen hundred underground. Herodotus say he toured the upper chambers himself, but Egyptian custodians refused to show the lower ones. They reportedly held the tombs of the original royal builders and of sacred crocodiles. What? What?

• 3:01:11Speaker 02

  That's so nuts.

• 3:01:13Speaker 01

  Bro, that brings back to my stupid dream.

• 3:01:15Speaker 02

  I, I was literally thinking that, yeah.

• 3:01:17Speaker 01

  He emphasizes its bewildering internal circulation, visitors pass from courts to chambers, chambers to colonnades, and then to further rooms and courts, its roof was stone, its walls bore carved figures, and each court was ringed by precisely fitted white stone columns.

• 3:01:38Speaker 02

  And Pliny the Elder also had an account of this thing, like this was.

• 3:01:43Speaker 01

  Well, it's, I mean, also, like, with ground penetrating radar, they know it exists.

• 3:01:46Speaker 02

  They know it exists.

• 3:01:47Speaker 01

  These chambers actually do exist, and that's the weird thing about whatever that metallic object is, they, they can, and they don't know what metal it is either. It's, it doesn't resonate like aluminum or iron, they don't know what the fuck it is.

• 3:01:59Speaker 02

  That's so wild. They know a croc.

• 3:02:01Speaker 01

  The labyrinth surpasses even the pyramids.

• 3:02:04Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 3:02:04Speaker 01

  He says, I saw this myself, I found it greater than words can say.

• 3:02:08Speaker 02

  That is so wild. That is so crazy.

• 3:02:12Speaker 01

  Imagine saying something's greater than the pyramids and it's under the ground.

• 3:02:15Speaker 02

  And you are the preeminent Greek historian, like you're writing about all the craziest shit.

• 3:02:19Speaker 01

  And you're writing about it from a firsthand perspective. It's not like he heard a story.

• 3:02:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, you're, you're, you've seen it.

• 3:02:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, this isn't like Homer.

• 3:02:27Speaker 03

  Speaking of writing, I was watching the old, older Lex Friedman podcast and this linguist guy, I haven't heard this discussed yet, especially with all the times we talked about Go Beckley Tepey, have you ever seen this thing?

• 3:02:37Speaker 01

  What is that?

• 3:02:38Speaker 03

  Um, the way he describes it is it's like proving that they had language then, because this is not cuneiform.

• 3:02:48Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 3:02:49Speaker 03

  And the way he, I mean, they get, it takes 30 minutes probably before they get to this and because he's breaking down what language is and how we got to it. And he gives a very crazy explanation of language I had not heard, which it's, it's like, um, writing down sound.

• 3:03:06Speaker 01

  Ooh.

• 3:03:07Speaker 03

  In the same way that like a, like a record is recording sound, you're writing down sounds.

• 3:03:13Speaker 01

  Ooh.

• 3:03:14Speaker 03

  And it's like, it took a while for everybody to agree upon what all those sounds were so that you're all reading the same thing and.

• 3:03:18Speaker 01

  So Irving Finkel, scholar of ancient languages and longtime curator at the British Museum, renowned for his expertise in Mesopotamian history and cuneiform writing, believes this artifact from Go Beckley Tepey is evidence of the earliest form of writing dating back to around 11,600 years ago.

• 3:03:36Speaker 03

  So he's saying like the way that the other stuff is reliefs, that this was like a stamped piece of clay that would have been, you know, some record of some sort saying something was done and this is like a verification of that. And this could have been some guy's last name. There's further breakdowns I've seen, like maybe this snake is like the S sound and this could be some guy's name, who knows what it really could mean, but this is going to, you know, 12,000 years ago, when they thought we only were doing this for 3,000 or whatever.

• 3:04:06Speaker 02

  Trippy.

• 3:04:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's very weird. It's all very weird. They're, they're just a history that we know of with the human race. I mean, just when you get to these old structures that we know people made, like when did they make them and why? Like why, what, what, what is Go Beckley Tepey? What the fuck is that?

• 3:04:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:04:24Speaker 01

  Like.

• 3:04:25Speaker 02

  Do you think we see a shift in our understanding of humanity and our place in the cosmos in our lifetime?

• 3:04:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, one funeral at a time.

• 3:04:34Speaker 02

  Hmm, yes, that's how science progresses.

• 3:04:37Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 3:04:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:04:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I think that's pretty accurate.

• 3:04:40Speaker 02

  One gatekeeper at a time.

• 3:04:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, these old cocksuckers, they need to get out of the way. I mean, I just think there's way too many of these people that have a vested interest in protecting a narrative that they've been, they've been teaching, they've been writing books about, they've been, they've been saying that they're the experts, when you literally can't be. There's just not enough data.

• 3:05:01Speaker 02

  What every period in history, like things get wholly overturned. So if you can't point to one thing that's kind of heretical today that you agree with, then you're definitely on the wrong side of history.

• 3:05:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:05:13Speaker 02

  We always say we're at the end of history scientifically, historically, and then it, it always, you know, progresses and usually there's a, that's when people are most saying we're at the end of history, you see a paradigm shift and everything just completely collapses and change. This is like the structure of scientific revolutions is written by a guy named Thomas Kuhn, who's actually, he was friends with John Mack and he encouraged him to, you know, investigate the alien abduction stuff at Harvard and he was, he would say that there's a law of declining marginal returns in any scientific paradigm, where you're just rounding out the, the final margins on a theory and you're so sure of it, you know, like electromagnetism that late 19th century. And then boom, you get total collapse because, you know, Max Planck figures out quanta, you

• 3:05:55Speaker 02

  get the quantum revolution and who's to say, who are you to say so smugly that that's not going to happen now? Like, of course it will.

• 3:06:03Speaker 01

  Of course it will.

• 3:06:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:06:05Speaker 01

  It's just what always has happened.

• 3:06:06Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 3:06:07Speaker 01

  And much like the UFO thing with, when it comes to discussions about ancient history and the true history of the human race and what, what we really don't know, the people that are the most smug and are the most sure of themselves are most certainly the most wrong.

• 3:06:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, a hundred percent.

• 3:06:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. Cause I think the whole thing is weird. The UFO thing is weird and the ancient history thing is weird.

• 3:06:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:06:37Speaker 01

  There's, there's too many unanswered questions.

• 3:06:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 3:06:41Speaker 01

  And the, the answers that they have are really shitty. There's too many really shitty answers.

• 3:06:47Speaker 02

  This is kind of a weird analogy, but in like stock picking, which is, you know, it's easy to get feedback on stock picking, like whether you're right or you're wrong. Confidence can rise exponentially and accuracy rises very linearly and often plateaus. And so that's off, I think it's the case in like, you know, in learning anything where like you get more and more and more confident, you're so sure of yourself and, but your accuracy is only going like mildly up.

• 3:07:12Speaker 01

  And it goes back to what we were talking about with like remote viewing and staying in flow state.

• 3:07:16Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 3:07:17Speaker 01

  It's like the, you gotta get out of your own way with everything.

• 3:07:20Speaker 02

  Totally. And, and, and sometimes, you know, a great example is Marconi, who is responsible for inventing the radio by most account, him and Tesla, right? He tried to send a signal across the Atlantic and he thought that electromagnetic waves curved. And so he was like, you know, I'm going to send the signal, it's going to work. He was entirely wrong about electromagnetic waves curving. It just bounced off the ionosphere and then it landed across the Atlantic and the signal was received. And so he was right because he was wrong.

• 3:07:51Speaker 01

  Ha.

• 3:07:52Speaker 02

  And how many, you know, cases are like that where, you know, did Graham Hancock find the Ark of the Covenant? No, he had it, he had it in this general westerly direction of knowing that we have kind of amnesia as a civilization and he found something extremely special, you know, helped popularize the Go Beckley Tepey narrative and this whole Younger Dryas period, you know, impact theory hypothesis. So you have, you know, the same thing with James Bruce with the Ark of the Covenant. You can, you can shoot for the stars and land on the moon, you know, and that's okay. But if you're just like this nitpicker, like annoying, smug, you know, academic who's like arguing for the priestly citadel to be upheld, like what are, what is your contribution to humanity?

• 3:08:35Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:08:36Speaker 02

  Like, what are you doing?

• 3:08:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, and there's a lot of those.

• 3:08:38Speaker 02

  There's so many, yeah. But I think even some of those people, and I'm not, I'm not saying that all of the attributes I just mentioned apply to Neil deGrasse Tyson, but that some of those, some of those people are now updating on UFOs. And it's wild because like you have a documentary, you know, the age of disclosure where all these high ranking intel people are saying UFOs are real repeatedly in front of a chalkboard, saying they are real, take my word for it. And it's bludgeoning you basically to a point where you're like, okay, they're probably not like lying to me, you know? And so, and then you end up with Neil deGrasse Tyson being like, look, okay, there's just an overwhelming amount of accounts now, now, you know, I do think there's probably something here and we should look into it.

• 3:09:20Speaker 02

  And it's like, dude, you weren't doing science before, but is all it took a documentary? That doesn't make any sense.

• 3:09:26Speaker 01

  No, it's criticism.

• 3:09:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:09:29Speaker 01

  He's responding to overwhelming criticism of his intellectual capacity for reason.

• 3:09:33Speaker 02

  That's right, yeah.

• 3:09:34Speaker 01

  Cause I think like when he was on the podcast with me, I got very upset with him when he was like, why would they be interested in us? And I, I told him, I go, that one drives me crazy. And I tried to explain why it drives me crazy and he kept interjecting and I'm like, okay, yeah, just, just stop, just stop with that idea that we're not interesting. We're territorial apes with nuclear weapons who fucking send FaceTime videos to people on the other side of the planet. That's real weird.

• 3:10:01Speaker 02

  We're, we're apes with nukes.

• 3:10:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, we're real weird.

• 3:10:05Speaker 02

  We're real weird.

• 3:10:06Speaker 01

  And if I was something that was an advanced civilization from somewhere else, hopefully that, a civilization that has gotten past the concept of war and stealing resources and all that, and, and does have some sort of a hive mind, some sort of ability to communicate telepathically, I would be absolutely fascinated by this thing that seems to be in this transitionary sort of an adolescent stage of evolution and development. It's like not quite a primal animal anymore, but also not evolved past primal animal behavior.

• 3:10:38Speaker 02

  A hundred percent. And Allah, the Chinese, the Chinese science fiction novel, the three body problem, you might not show yourself overtly in the dark forest teeming with life. It's actually dangerous to show yourself, so you subtly show up. You show up at these, you know, nodes, hinge points of, you know, possible cataclysm at nuclear, you show up to a specific person who might be a node of disclosure, but you would let it sort of seep in, you'd condition the population, you wouldn't show up all at once.

• 3:11:05Speaker 01

  And we are like objectively being conditioned to accept this. If the fucking president is saying they live in the ocean and Tim Burchett is saying there's five hotspots in the oceans as well, and then we see it in the New York Times in 2017, well, this is how disclosure takes place.

• 3:11:21Speaker 02

  Hundred percent.

• 3:11:22Speaker 01

  Nice and slow, nice and slow to the point where it just becomes accepted.

• 3:11:27Speaker 02

  Totally. Yeah, and it, there's no like clear ontological shock moment.

• 3:11:31Speaker 01

  It's not do, do, do, dum, do, the fucking devil's tower, UFO lands, it's not that.

• 3:11:38Speaker 02

  No, no.

• 3:11:39Speaker 01

  It's nice and slow.

• 3:11:40Speaker 02

  It's what's happening now.

• 3:11:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:11:42Speaker 02

  It's happening. And that's why, cause there are people that get really frustrated and I understand it because there's so much sclerotic bureaucracy on the hill and, you know, these whistleblowers need way more protections. I think we need targeted immunity for certain people who can say a lot more, who are good faith actors coming out. There are probably a lot of people that did really bad shit that we don't want immunity for, you know?

• 3:12:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:12:03Speaker 02

  But like ultimately, you know, I have these conversations and it's like, it's so frustrating, it's taking so long, but it is moving. Like if you look at 10 years ago vis a vis today, 2016, before that 2017 article to today, it's wild.

• 3:12:18Speaker 01

  Totally different landscape.

• 3:12:19Speaker 02

  Totally different landscape.

• 3:12:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. If you talked about it back then, you were a buffoon and now you're on the right side of history.

• 3:12:26Speaker 02

  There you go. So you, Joe, are the premier scientist because you were into all this stuff way back.

• 3:12:33Speaker 01

  That guy was into it first.

• 3:12:35Speaker 02

  Art Bell, legend.

• 3:12:37Speaker 01

  The OG.

• 3:12:38Speaker 02

  Inspiration.

• 3:12:39Speaker 01

  Jesse, you're the fucking man. I appreciate you very much. It's always great to talk to you. Your show is amazing, American Alchemy, it's available on YouTube and it's incredible. It's the best.

• 3:12:48Speaker 02

  Love you, Joe, thank you for having me.

• 3:12:49Speaker 01

  I love you too. Thank you for being here. All right, bye everybody.