#2544 - Chris Williamson

Chris Williamson is the host of the "Modern Wisdom" podcast. See him live on select dates throughout the United Kingdom. https://chriswillx.com/modernwisdom https://www.youtube.com/@ChrisWillx Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan. Don’t miss out on all the action this week at DraftKings! Download the DraftKings app today! Sign-up using https://dkng.co/rogan or through my promo code ROGAN. Switch today at https://Visible.com for just 25/mo. Or Save $10 on your first month of Visible+ Pro with code ROGAN. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The Joe Rogan Experience.

• 0:05Speaker 01

  Training by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day.

• 0:12Speaker 02

  We're up.

• 0:12Speaker 01

  Hey, Christopher.

• 0:13Speaker 02

  Hi.

• 0:14Speaker 01

  Good to see you.

• 0:14Speaker 02

  Thank you very much for the book. This is very cool of you. Ladies and gentlemen, Chris just gifted me, ladies and gentlemen, Lenny Bruce, which is a fucking amazing book. And it's inscripted, or there's inscription inside, to Yoko Ono, who knows well what the jazz life entails. And it's Albert Goldman. And you were just telling me that Albert Goldman, this was his way of weaving into the Yoko Ono, John Leno.

• 0:43Speaker 03

  Camp.

• 0:43Speaker 02

  John Lennon camp.

• 0:44Speaker 03

  Exactly, yeah. And then he goes and writes a book that blows them up. I've just exploded a can of Newtonical over my crotch as well. Jamie, have you got a napkin? Yeah, we have a paper towel somewhere. Apologies.

• 0:53Speaker 02

  We don't?

• 0:54Speaker 04

  It must be gone. Might we get some?

• 0:56Speaker 03

  That's all right. Premature.

• 0:57Speaker 02

  We have tissues. No? All right. He says no.

• 1:02Speaker 03

  Jamie says no. Yeah, so he writes that book and then gifts it to Yoko Ono. And by giving it to her, I think is the beginning of him working his way into that camp. And then he goes on to write the book, The Lives of John Lennon, which, after he's dead, kind of explodes a lot of what was going on personally, whether it's true or not. There's a lot of drama and furor around it. But I knew that it was your favorite book and we were supposed to.

• 1:24Speaker 02

  Well, thank you. That's very cool of you. I did not know about that, that he wrote the John Lennon book as well. It's really interesting because the John Lennon book, it's, God, it's so weird to write a book like that after a guy's dead and he can't respond to it.

• 1:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:38Speaker 02

  Where you're accusing, was it ex-wives that accused him of domestic violence? Who accused him?

• 1:45Speaker 03

  I don't know. I think that that whole furor was just a mess. And obviously, when someone's dead, what are they going to do? How are they going to be, how are they going to be able to come back from that?

• 1:55Speaker 02

  They can't.

• 1:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:57Speaker 02

  Well, it's kind of, it's just weird that you're allowed to do that. You know, that you're allowed to say, this happened, that happened. The guy can't say, no, no, and I can prove it. Like, he can't say anything.

• 2:07Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:08Speaker 02

  And it's also like the give peace a chance guy. Like, the give peace a chance guy who's beating his wife? Boy, you know, it's not that surprising, giving like human contradiction. You know, it's like male feminists that turn out to be sexual predators. There's a lot of them, right? There's a lot of that weird stuff going on where people pretend to be one thing and they're actually another thing.

• 2:27Speaker 03

  Sneaky fuckers.

• 2:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, sneaky fuckers. The give peace a chance guy beating his wife, though, it's like, I can't believe that. I have a really hard time believing that. But I've been fooled before, right? Like, he seems like the most peaceful, nonviolent guy of all time. If that guy's, but I had read a bunch of stuff about him being a cunt. Goldman portrayed Lennon as having numerous sexual relationships outside his marriages. His accounts include well-known relationship with May Pang. Like the Asians, huh?

• 2:55Speaker 03

  Well.

• 2:56Speaker 02

  JL.

• 2:57Speaker 03

  Keep going.

• 2:58Speaker 02

  Additional affairs with women framed as habitual cheating, claims of sexual encounters with men, including an alleged relationship with Beatles manager Brian Epstein. Hey. For more serious allegations, including claims involving male prostitutes in Thailand and other conduct that Goldman characterized as sexual predation. The thing is, like, how is he getting all this information about, like, male prostitutes in Thailand? And, you know, like, how do you know? You know what I mean? Like, did someone tell you?

• 3:31Speaker 03

  Original research.

• 3:32Speaker 02

  Did you go there? Like, did you go there and talk to the prostitute?

• 3:35Speaker 03

  I surveyed the prostitutes.

• 3:36Speaker 02

  Oh, John Lennon. I suck his cock. Like, why the book is disputed. The problem is the reliability of Goldman's specific accusations. At publication, Yoko Ono and Paul McCartney publicly condemned the book. Contemporary reporting noted claims of factual errors, contradictions, unattributed assertions, and material allegedly based on dubious sources or quotations used out of context. Look, that is not uncommon. Did I ever tell you what Bill Murray said on the podcast? So Bill Murray was reading Bob Woodward's book Wired. And he said he got through like five pages, said, oh my God, they framed Nixon. Because Bob Woodward was the guy who did Watergate.

• 4:21Speaker 02

  And he said, this book was so full of shit. It was so fake. He, like, he portrayed, he portrayed the whole scene of, like, what he was up to as being like hardcore drugs constantly, all the time, just, just fucking losing his mind. And he's like, no, dude, he was a lightweight. He wasn't like that at all.

• 4:47Speaker 03

  So he knew it was totally fabricated?

• 4:50Speaker 02

  He said, this is not my friend. Like, I knew him, he was my best friend. He's like, this is not him. And then I told him the story of how Bob Woodward was an intelligence agent. And that was his first assignment ever. Tucker told me this story on the podcast, that Bob Woodward and the other guy, what's the other guy's name? Bernstein. That Bob Woodward, this was a rookie assignment. A rookie assignment is going to take down the fucking president of the United States. And his first job outside of being a fucking intelligence agent is to work for the Washington Post on his first story, which is going to take down the most popular president in the history of the United States. One by the largest margin ever.

• 5:35Speaker 02

  And this is the guy that said he knew who killed Jack Kennedy. And apparently, that's why they got rid of Nixon. Tucker told me the whole story on the podcast. I was like, holy shit. This is fucking crazy.

• 5:46Speaker 03

  You're connecting the dots.

• 5:48Speaker 02

  It's a, it's a crazy fucking story.

• 5:51Speaker 03

  Have you been following this Lindsay Clancy case?

• 5:54Speaker 02

  Who's that?

• 5:55Speaker 03

  Lady who killed three of her kids?

• 5:57Speaker 02

  Oh, no, I've tried not to. That one's, that's a bummer.

• 6:01Speaker 03

  It is, it's basically 2026 is OJ Simpson.

• 6:06Speaker 02

  Before we get into that, I'd love to get into that. This Belushi thing is important. Because like, his friend is telling you that he was not like that. Woodward makes him out to be this maniacal cocaine-addled heroin-fueled guy. He's like, no, he was a lightweight. He said he would get drunk off a couple drinks. So our whole narrative of who John Belushi is, is by the same guy who framed Nixon. Like, once someone's dead, you can say whatever the fuck you want. You can say whatever you want.

• 6:42Speaker 03

  And who's going to defend this person in the, with the same level of vitriol or vehementness that someone who's still alive is going to?

• 6:50Speaker 02

  No one.

• 6:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 6:51Speaker 02

  No one. And there's nothing you can do. He's gone. Everyone's mourning, everyone's sad. And then someone writes some book, oh, he used to fuck kids. Like, what? Like, you could just write whatever you want. And then maybe they could sue you, but boy, you're going to make an extraordinary amount of money off of that book. Like, people are going to be hyped up for that book. You have a book about John Lennon was like into meditation, he liked to do LSD. No one's buying that shit. John Lennon liked to fuck guys in Thailand. Let's go. Let's go. Right? You could write anything.

• 7:18Speaker 03

  Who's going to fight back that hard as well, once someone's gone?

• 7:21Speaker 02

  You can't prove it. He's dead.

• 7:23Speaker 03

  Well, it's all hearsay.

• 7:24Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 7:24Speaker 03

  Even the defense is now hearsay.

• 7:25Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 7:26Speaker 03

  The defense of the person who is now no longer alive.

• 7:28Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 7:29Speaker 03

  That's hearsay.

• 7:29Speaker 02

  Exactly. Everything's hearsay.

• 7:31Speaker 03

  Yeah. So the defense is always going to be flimsy in comparison to the accusations. The accusation feels like it's got more substance to it.

• 7:37Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 7:37Speaker 03

  This is someone who's gone out and done original research. You didn't go to Thailand, you didn't speak to the prostitutes.

• 7:41Speaker 02

  Ah, but even that, like, no one's buying it. It's just. This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. We all have little things we do to save ourselves time, like shopping online, or paying kids from the neighborhood to rake up all those leaves sitting in the front yard. Or if you're hiring, you rely on ZipRecruiter. They match you with qualified candidates as soon as you post your job. Now that's how you save time. Try it yourself for free at ziprecruiter.com/Rogan. It's rated the number one hiring site based on G2 for a reason. Because on top of the qualified candidates, it also shows you the most interested ones first. Save time and meet great candidates sooner with ZipRecruiter.

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  This episode is brought to you by Squarespace. If you're thinking about building a website, you should try Squarespace. I know because I use it. That's right, joe Rogan dot com is powered by Squarespace. It has all the features that you need to create a standout website, like an AI-enhanced website builder, SEO optimization tools, and seamless checkouts with mobile pay links. Head to Squarespace dot com slash Rogan for a free trial. And when you are ready to launch, use the offer code ROGEN to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. You can get away with so much. It's really kind of crazy. So you didn't know about the Nixon story?

• 10:21Speaker 03

  No.

• 10:21Speaker 02

  You should hear Tucker say it. Because when Tucker, Tucker lays it out and you're like, what? It's even more complex. Like, the people that were involved in Watergate were all FBI. It's crazy. They set him up.

• 10:36Speaker 03

  Why?

• 10:36Speaker 02

  Because he was going to expose who killed JFK, which was just a few years earlier.

• 10:43Speaker 03

  Fuck dude, this country's wild. I mean, I love it, but it's, it is crazy.

• 10:47Speaker 02

  They also, you know, he had a vice president, Spiro Agnew, and they got rid of him on corruption charges and put Lyndon Johnson in.

• 10:54Speaker 03

  But couldn't these people have still spoken out? Like getting rid of them out of office, that doesn't stop them from whistleblowing, does it?

• 11:01Speaker 02

  First of all, they killed his predecessor, right? They killed JFK.

• 11:05Speaker 03

  So you think that was a warning shot? Like, we can get you out?

• 11:08Speaker 02

  Well, he knew they could. They definitely did. And they also got rid of him, right? And, you know, he didn't organize Watergate. He covered it up. They brought it to him. They said, hey, there was some recording equipment. He's like, don't tell them about it. And that's what got him. That's what got him. See if you can find the clip of Tucker talking about it. Because it is really insane. When you read the, when you hear him lay out the story, and then I read it online. I went into it to see like, is this totally? Everything's accurate. And it's so weird that our perception of Nixon has been this corrupt crook. You know, look, he was a very right-wing product of his time. And today, his politics and his views on people, especially like minorities and a lot of other

• 11:51Speaker 02

  things, would probably be very disgraceful and people would not like it. But we're talking about, you know, the 1960s, the early 1970s, and he's an old-school, old-timey Republican guy. That said, he was the most popular president ever at his time. And they got rid of him. They turned him into a crook.

• 12:11Speaker 03

  That's power.

• 12:11Speaker 02

  It's, it's really crazy. You gotta listen to this, because it's kind of nuts.

• 12:17Speaker 02

  Bogan experience. Bizarre that the New York Times wouldn't have an issue with that.

• 12:22Speaker 05

  Well, the New York Times does that all the time.

• 12:23Speaker 02

  But bizarre that they wouldn't have an issue with the government tapping into your phone.

• 12:27Speaker 05

  They work for the government. Are you kidding? The New York Times? Yeah, the New York Times is a conduit for the lies of government. That's what it is. It's their tool, and they're perfectly aware of that. I mean, I used to write for the New York Times as a freelancer. I mean, I've been around the New York Times a lot. And there are, yeah, there are a lot of really smart people there, for sure. Even now, I would, less so now, but there's still, I think, smart people there. There are, I know some. And they know. But they think that that, you know, it's worth it because they're bringing information. I don't know what they think, actually. But no, they're, they're tools of power. And that's like the one thing that you're not allowed to be. Even if you think the power is good, like, maybe they all support the agenda of the US government, destabilizing the world and impoverishing their own population.

• 13:12Speaker 05

  Maybe they're on board with that. Even if they are, they shouldn't do it, because the job of the media, the press, is to keep power in check. You are kind of like the seatbelt, right? You know, you make sure that things don't go too far. So, and they're not doing that. They're acting as a willing handmaiden.

• 13:36Speaker 02

  When do you think that switched?

• 13:38Speaker 05

  I think it's been the case for a long time. I mean, if you look at what happened to Richard Nixon, which I, of course, did not understand at all, Richard Nixon was taken out by the FBI and CIA. And with the help of Bob Woodward, who was a Washington Post reporter, who had been a naval intelligence officer, working in the White House, working in the Nixon White House. And then he shows up, like, a year later, and he's this brand-new reporter. He'd never been a journalist at all. He's a naval intel officer. The famous Bob Woodward, we all revere. And he's at the Washington Post, and somehow he gets the biggest story in the history of the Washington Post. He's the lead guy in that story. Well, I worked at a newspaper.

• 14:23Speaker 05

  I've been in the news business my whole life. That is not how it works. You don't take a kid, like, his first day from a totally unrelated business and put him on the biggest story. But he was. He was that guy. And who is his main source for Watergate? Oh, the number-two guy at the FBI. Oh, so you have the naval intelligence officer working with the FBI official to destroy the president. Okay, so that's a deep state coup. What else? How would you describe that? If that happened in Guatemala, what would you say? And yet, the way it was framed and the way that I accepted for decades was, oh, this intrepid reporter fought power. No, no, no. This intrepid reporter, Bob Woodward, was a tool of power, secret power, which is the

• 15:06Speaker 05

  most threatening kind, to bounce the single most popular president in American history, Richard Nixon, from office before the end of his term, and replace him with who? Oh, Gerald Ford, who sat on the Warren Commission. Now, how did Gerald Ford get to be Richard Nixon's vice president? Well, because Carl Albert, the Democrat Speaker of the House, told him, you must choose him. We will only confirm him when they sent the actual elected vice president away for tax evasion, Spiro Agnew of Maryland. So you have a complete setup, like an absolute, Gerald Ford, the only unelected president in American history, actually sat on the Warren Commission. Something else that I accepted at face value until I looked at it, and I was like, that's completely insane.

• 15:51Speaker 05

  You didn't want to interview Jack Ruby in your investigation of the assassination? Okay, you're fake. Yeah, he was on the Warren Commission.

• 15:58Speaker 03

  Fuck me.

• 15:59Speaker 05

  And so, sorry for the long story, but the point is, like, that, that happened in front of all of us, but the way it was framed cloaked the obvious reality of it. The people who broke into the Watergate office building, from which the name is taken, Watergate, I think it was six of them or seven of them, all but one was a CIA employee. That, that's real. It's like, look it up on Google. So, the whole thing, Richard Nixon was elected by more votes than any president in American history in the 1972 election. He was the most popular, by votes, which is the only way we can really measure popularity, the most popular president in his reelection campaign. And two years later, he's gone.

• 16:41Speaker 05

  Undone by a naval intel officer, the number-two guy at the FBI, and a bunch of CIA employees. You tell me what that is.

• 16:50Speaker 02

  How about that?

• 16:50Speaker 03

  Dude, this country's wild.

• 16:52Speaker 02

  How about that? Yeah. That's Bob Woodward. That's the guy who wrote Wired. And when Bill Murray said that, he read the book, and he said, oh, my God, they framed Nixon. And then I showed him that, and he was like, holy shit. Because he was a part of a thing they were doing with Hunter S. Thompson, Bill Murray was, when he was really young. And where he would go around and tell people that Nixon needs a second chance, but it was all parody. It was all like tongue-in-cheek. It was satire. He was going around pretending that he supported Nixon and Nixon needed a second chance, and getting like, young, dumb people to go along with him on this.

• 17:32Speaker 03

  And now, in retrospect?

• 17:34Speaker 02

  In retrospect, like, I mean, whether or not, at the time, he ever wanted Nixon as president, and, you know, look, there's a lot of problems with Nixon. There's a lot of problems with the Vietnam War. There's a lot of problems with civil rights. Nixon passed the Controlled Substances Act, which is the reason why all psychedelic drugs to this day are Schedule I. Nixon was a fucking problem, no doubt about it. However, what they did, when they, the way they got rid of that guy, is scary shit. And they pulled it off. No one got arrested, no one got indicted, no one even got criticized.

• 18:08Speaker 03

  But could he not have still released information after? Why?

• 18:12Speaker 02

  He would have been a dead man, 100%.

• 18:13Speaker 03

  Because no protection, because you're not in office anymore?

• 18:15Speaker 02

  No one would have believed him.

• 18:17Speaker 03

  It would have sounded like sour grapes. I'm throwing these people under the bus, the administration that got rid of me, ba, ba, ba, ba.

• 18:22Speaker 02

  There's also no internet. So how's he gonna release it? Is the New York Times gonna write this? Is he gonna write a, a letter to the press and they're gonna print it? No. There's literally no recourse.

• 18:32Speaker 03

  It's kind of genius.

• 18:33Speaker 02

  There's no podcasts, there's no shows that he could go on. No one, he was disgraced. No one would even have him on a late-night show. But if he even got on a late-night show, he would need about 90 minutes to explain it all. He would have to take it from the beginning. There was a time when I wondered who killed Jack Kennedy, and I found out. And I brought it to them, and I told them, I know who killed Jack, and the room went cold. And he would tell the whole story, and it would take a lot. If podcasts were a lot around back then, yes. If just Instagram was around back then, and Twitter, and he could write about it and make a video, yeah. YouTube, yeah, if that was around. But there was nothing. There was nothing, and they fucking shot JFK in the head in front of everybody, and

• 19:17Speaker 02

  shot the guy who they claimed killed him, like that. And then the other guy, they dosed up with acid and made crazy, and that was a wrap.

• 19:24Speaker 03

  Done.

• 19:25Speaker 02

  That was it. You know, and like, how many, I mean, this is just modern versions of air quotes, "history." How, how many old stories that we have, that we just, we just have accepted these historical narratives? We've accepted all of these stories as being, "Well, this is how it went down." How many of them are bullshit?

• 19:51Speaker 03

  Well, forget history being written by the victors. History can be written by the person who's got a pen.

• 19:56Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 19:57Speaker 03

  And when so few people have got pens, so few people have got the opportunity to distribute. I suppose the problem that we have now is, in the modern world, there's so much information, conflicting narratives, people get confused, right? You've gone from a scarcity of information to such an abundance that people just, "I, I, I can't work out what's going on. Fuck, I'm just not going to believe anything."

• 20:15Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's, um, it's very interesting, because it's a great tool to kind of obfuscate. You can obfuscate, you can do a lot of things with a bunch of bullshit information. The more bullshit information you have, the more like really significant information doesn't really hit as much.

• 20:32Speaker 03

  Correct.

• 20:33Speaker 02

  It's just like, it gets watered down, then it goes away.

• 20:36Speaker 03

  The goal, I think, of the velocity of the information is not to convince people of any one narrative.

• 20:40Speaker 02

  Right.

• 20:41Speaker 03

  It's to make them completely nihilistic about the belief in any narrative.

• 20:44Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yes, any narrative, yeah. And, and also, just to kind of accept that feeling of hopelessness, like you can't change anything.

• 20:53Speaker 03

  Correct.

• 20:54Speaker 02

  It's all fucked.

• 20:55Speaker 03

  That feels pliable.

• 20:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:57Speaker 03

  Right? And then there might be something down the line, if nothing else, you're not going to have a agentic, sovereign uprising. What can we do in any case? I don't even know what's going, I'm checked out. Right? Like, the nihilism, the cynicism, I don't think that that's a byproduct, I think that's...

• 21:10Speaker 02

  It's a plan.

• 21:11Speaker 03

  Correct.

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• 22:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a design, and it's, it's smart, and it works. And it's, it's not even like they engineered it. It sort of emerged, and they took advantage of these new tools, because these new tools, you know, social media, is more effective than anything we've ever had before. And so, they go, "Oh, but look at all this." Now, you know, we didn't even have, we barely, no one pays attention to CNN, we don't even use them anymore. We just like, douse the whole world with horse shit.

• 23:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:07Speaker 02

  On Instagram, and Threads, and...

• 23:09Speaker 03

  Seed stories here and there.

• 23:10Speaker 02

  Just bullshit.

• 23:11Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:12Speaker 02

  Just pure bullshit. There's accounts that I know, when I look at what they said, Justin Timberlake arrested for, you know, murder, you know, they'll, they'll write things like that, you're like, "What?" And it's just a made-up story. And there's like, hundreds of them, where you look, and I, there's some of them, I recognize the account, and I see it, I go, "Oh, this is another made-up story. Halle Berry kills five."

• 23:32Speaker 03

  What do you think we should do about this? Because obviously, this country, freedom of speech, et cetera, et cetera, but, I don't know, should there be a way to try and counter this?

• 23:42Speaker 02

  Yes. Well, first of all, those people aren't real people, for the most part. And if you go to their page, a lot of them are like, in Pakistan, or somewhere else, where, and of course, I don't know how effective X in particular is, I mean, I know they've, they've taken steps to show that when you go to the person's page, someone's commenting on US politics, and you go to their page, says Myanmar.

• 24:04Speaker 03

  See where they're from.

• 24:05Speaker 02

  Myanmar? Why do you give a fuck? What are you doing? So, but, that, to me, is like, okay, is there a way around that? Are these like, completely nonsophisticated people, where they have to show that they're in Myanmar? What if they had like, a corporation in Idaho, and they had it set up where they all registered there, and so, your, your bills get sent to there, everything gets sent to there, and it just says "United States"? And you're using a VPN, or you have some other way of connecting? It doesn't, like, if, if fucking AI can get out of a sandbox and get on the internet, you're telling me that you can't hide the fact that you're actually from...

• 24:38Speaker 03

  Vietnamese people can't pretend to be from Idaho.

• 24:40Speaker 02

  Come on.

• 24:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 24:42Speaker 02

  So, who knows?

• 24:43Speaker 03

  X feels like the fucking Wild West.

• 24:45Speaker 02

  It's the Wild West.

• 24:46Speaker 03

  It really is.

• 24:47Speaker 02

  It's worse than the Wild West. It's the Wild West with robots. It's, it's that western show, what's that show called?

• 24:52Speaker 03

  Westworld.

• 24:53Speaker 02

  Westworld, yeah, that's what it is.

• 24:54Speaker 03

  Correct.

• 24:55Speaker 02

  It's Wild West with robots.

• 24:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 24:57Speaker 02

  It's really Westworld, because, and most of these fucking people that are, you're bantering with, and they're posting these fake stories, they're probably not even real people, they're probably AI. They're either people that are hired to do it, or they're AI. You got a bunch of AI scripts, and they just run it all the time, and they post periodically throughout the day.

• 25:15Speaker 03

  And interesting, not, not long ago, what, five? When did Elon buy X? 23? Yeah, something like that, 23. So, five, five years ago, everyone was so worried that we didn't have a, a town square, we don't have anywhere that we can talk.

• 25:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:29Speaker 03

  And now, we're like, "Fucking take it back."

• 25:30Speaker 02

  Well, one thing that Elon has realized, is that you have to take away some of the incentives to post fake stuff. Without putting up a barrier, and saying, "You can't post this," and censoring people, you can't incentivize them. So, the thing is, you can make money on X. So now, the way they're setting it up for these people that post, you can't make money off of fake content. You can't make money off of this stuff. So, there's no incentive to, because I think, part of the incentive is muddying the water, muddying the narrative, but I think also, part of the incentive is just financial. Because if you're running some company in Thailand, and you have like, 50 people working for you, you're probably making good money, just getting millions of clicks on bullshit,

• 26:13Speaker 02

  nonsense videos that are AI, and, and a bunch of fucking fake stories that people concoct, or AI concocts. As soon as you cut out the money, and say, "You're only paid for original content, that's it, that's all you can get paid for," that changes the game. That changes everything.

• 26:30Speaker 03

  I think if you align the incentives for most people, shit gets fixed.

• 26:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:35Speaker 03

  Like, incentives are an unbelievable motivating force.

• 26:37Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 26:38Speaker 03

  And if you can, if you can have that on X, I think that that fixes a lot of the problem.

• 26:41Speaker 02

  It fixes a lot of it, but honestly, you gotta be able to tell whether something's AI. Because even if, even if there's no incentive, you could shift narratives so easily. If you just have 100,000 AI scripts running 100,000 accounts, it's not hard for a state to do, like, a, a country to do, to have like, those kind of resources. You can change public opinion on things. Most people are dumb as fuck, and you start arguing for something that kind of makes sense, and all of a sudden, "Uh, yeah, I don't know what a woman is either." You know, like, weird, narratives can get real weird, and especially when people start attacking the people that disagree with whatever this narrative they're trying to push, nobody wants to get attacked.

• 27:26Speaker 02

  "Well, I mean, I, I didn't understand the consequences of my words."

• 27:30Speaker 03

  That's a different kind of incentive, right? That's a social incentive.

• 27:32Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 27:33Speaker 03

  And the incentive is a disincentive, you don't want to be pushed back against.

• 27:36Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 27:37Speaker 03

  So few people have original thoughts, so few people, the vast majority of original thinkers kind of marionette two different armies of NPCs that believe the thing that a few people that have original thoughts ended up coming up with.

• 27:50Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, I think there's a bunch of unfortunate realities, that none of us like to accept, and one of them is that some people are dumb. They're born dumb. Some people have big noses, some people have big ears, and some people have brains that are made out of dog shit, and that's just how it is. And there's nothing you can do about that. And there's varying levels of that, like, you know, I always feel like that when I'm talking to someone really smart, like, "Jeez, my brain sucks." It's, it varies, like wildly, just like athletics. Like, there's some people, like, "Dude, you, you are never going to the Olympics." You know, you look at them, like, "I don't give a fuck what you do." And there's other guys, like, you want to coach them, like, "Hey, if you just did anything, you'd be a freak. You'd be amazing at this, you just have natural gifts." That's the same thing intellectually.

• 28:35Speaker 02

  There's certain people that I've talked to, where you're like, "Yo." You know, there's, there's people that are, they're fucking barely figuring out how to get through a day. And, you know, if you expect those people to go and learn how to code, remember that? Learn to code, remember all that? This is not there.

• 28:55Speaker 03

  Not anymore.

• 28:56Speaker 02

  It's not there. I can't teach my dog how to type. It's not there. It's not gonna happen. That's just the reality of genetic variability. There's going to be a bunch of people that are really fucking smart and a bunch of people that are really athletic and really good-looking and really ugly and really stupid and all of it together.

• 29:15Speaker 03

  It's one of the reasons, I think, that the paternalistic, "we have to look after the little person" thing has a little bit of legs. People sometimes like, "Well, we actually need to step in in some way." And I'm sure me and you need fucking assistance. Like, we need smarter people than us to tell us what to do with health to a degree or else we would have been sideswiped by some fucking psyop from whatever organization or company or new initiative is trying to convince us of some new trend that's actually gonna be bad for us.

• 29:40Speaker 02

  Or just to communicate with each other. Where the fuck would we be without these wizards who have figured out cell phones and laptops and high-speed internet and Starlink? We're fucked. So all of these people even pretending that they're smart, well, you're on the backs of the labor of the real geniuses, you fucking idiot. Like, yeah, you're getting a lot of information online and you're developing more and more information that you can memorize. That's different. That's different than you inventing cell phones. Just stop. That's different. It's different than you inventing FaceTime.

• 30:15Speaker 03

  Well...

• 30:16Speaker 02

  You know, like, we're all dumb.

• 30:18Speaker 03

  We are all dumb. Yesterday, I don't know whether you saw this, the UK Home Office decided it was going to release a booklet giving guidance to asylum seekers on acceptable and unacceptable behavior in the UK.

• 30:30Speaker 02

  Oh, well, that'll fix it.

• 30:31Speaker 03

  It explains that consent's required for sex, that women have equal rights, that sexual harassment is unacceptable, including for partners and children, and that female genital mutilation is not allowed.

• 30:42Speaker 02

  Oh, God.

• 30:43Speaker 03

  This was a nine-page booklet that got released by the UK Home Office yesterday. It's just, it's everywhere.

• 30:49Speaker 02

  Dude.

• 30:50Speaker 03

  And it's got these warnings partway through it that say things like, "This may affect your asylum status, whether or not this is part of an understanding that you have arrived here with, this is an important part of British law and our culture, and this is something that you kind of do, female genital mutilation is not allowed, sexual harassment inside of the home or outside, women have equal rights, consent is something that's important." It is, and that's what I mean.

• 31:18Speaker 02

  The idea that you could just write it down on paper and give it to them, "Well, that's it, solved it."

• 31:24Speaker 03

  Well, the idea that we're going to do this in retrospect, like, now that you're here, here is a piece of paper that hopefully undoes something, which, if you've put this together and put it out on the Home Office website, and this is everywhere on X, if you've decided to do this, it is evidently a big enough problem that you need to really turn the taps on with it, it's like, dude, how is it that this is not done before people arrive in the country? Like, is this not the sort of thing that you need to be doing, like, proactively, not retroactively?

• 31:54Speaker 02

  I think they just wanted to get as many people in as possible, and now they're trying to mitigate the chaos that it's causing.

• 32:01Speaker 03

  Why would they want as many people in as possible?

• 32:03Speaker 02

  There's a bunch of different possibilities for why they want that. Cheap labor is one that people believe, and in America in particular, it's the way the census is done. So the census counts human beings, doesn't count citizens. So if you have more human beings, you get more congressional seats. So if you can take people that are illegal immigrants and then you move them into swing states, all of a sudden now you have more congressional seats in those swing states. Then you have places that don't allow, not don't require, don't allow ID to vote. That's California. California doesn't allow ID to vote.

• 32:43Speaker 02

  So who knows how many people are, especially with mail-in ballots, how many people are voting that aren't citizens? No one knows. No one knows, can't know, can't find out, blah, blah, blah, not listening.

• 32:54Speaker 03

  Wasn't there just some fuckery with Spencer Pratt around that?

• 32:57Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Not only was there fuckery, but it was fuckery of the most transparent form. So the people that voted in, voted out, so Spencer Pratt was in second place behind Karen Bass, and then the mail-ins started coming in, and the mail-ins overwhelmingly favored Nithya Raman in a completely different ratio than they did before, you know, the mail-in ballots were counted. So in the regular ballot, like, the regular election, she was in third place, like, a pretty solid third place, and he was quite a bit ahead of her, and then Karen Bass was quite a bit ahead of him. In the mail-in ballots, it's just like 60% of them went to Nithya Raman. It was something crazy.

• 33:42Speaker 02

  And the mail-in ballots voted to raise taxes.

• 33:47Speaker 03

  No one votes for that.

• 33:49Speaker 02

  No one votes for that.

• 33:50Speaker 03

  So I don't understand.

• 33:51Speaker 02

  No one.

• 33:52Speaker 03

  The thing that I can't wrap my head around is why, the UK seems to be almost like a suicidal empathy thing. This openness, this "diversity is our strength, please, all ye come here" thing. The level of asylum, the numbers are so huge. And I don't know, if every single person that I know that's in the UK is not happy with the state of that, regardless of how progressive they are, everybody thinks that this is a problem. And then to retroactively put out a nine-page booklet saying that you shouldn't do female genital mutilation or that women have got equal rights.

• 34:25Speaker 02

  How do you think this gets turned around? That's the question. Like, can that be mitigated? Claims about a ballot drop, Bass and Raman received thousands of votes in an update while Pratt received zero, I don't think anybody's saying zero. Los Angeles County officials said that did not occur in the official county updates. Every candidate received votes in every update. No one's saying he got zero.

• 34:48Speaker 04

  It says, it's what it says.

• 34:50Speaker 02

  Oh, the viral claim? Okay, but that's not what we're saying.

• 34:53Speaker 04

  He got more than both of them combined even, I think.

• 34:56Speaker 02

  What do you mean? In the mail-ins?

• 34:58Speaker 04

  It's what it says.

• 34:59Speaker 02

  Well, then how did she win? That doesn't make any sense.

• 35:02Speaker 04

  That's fixed, I'm just going off what it says.

• 35:04Speaker 02

  Okay, let me see. "Apparent anomaly came from the automated media data reporting lags," but that would leave him in second place if he got more than her. This is not true. "The Associated Press said votes for some candidates appeared about a minute later in a separate update. Taken together, the updates included 21,870 votes for Pratt, 12,850 for Bass, and 9,521 for Raman." But this is, what part of it is this? The Attorney's Claims Office, Attorney's Office reviewing county records likewise called the fraud claims false. But the thing is, he was ahead, and then disproportionately the ballots did come in for her.

• 35:46Speaker 02

  This is, I don't understand what this is saying, because it was widely reported that the ballots came in in favor of Nithya Raman, and it was like a shocking number. It was also widely reported that that was the swing that allowed them to pass the new tax hike, which is very unusual. And they, Los Angeles already has crazy high taxes. California has crazy high taxes, the highest in the state, and you think people are like, "I don't think we pay enough. Let's vote." And let's vote from home, the comfort of our own home with mail-in. I think mail-in should be outlawed, and I think you should have to show your ID. And, you know, everyone knows there's some percentage of fraud, there's some percentage of voter fraud, and then there's some percentage of legal loopholes.

• 36:30Speaker 02

  One of the legal loopholes that Spencer Pratt outlined that is legal is you go to these homeless people, and you get these homeless people to fill in mail-in ballots, because they are citizens, they do live in Los Angeles. And you register them, and you get them to fill out ballots, and you give them money, and you give them cigarettes, and you give them whatever they want. And, you know, there's literally, I think, in Skid Row alone, there's something like, what is it, like 40,000 people, Jamie?

• 36:57Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think so.

• 36:58Speaker 02

  Something crazy like that. So these people were going to Skid Row. Like, they were on Skid Row, giving people money and cigarettes. Like, there's videos of people doing it.

• 37:06Speaker 03

  Like guerrilla ballot harvesting.

• 37:07Speaker 02

  Exactly, exactly. And so if you do that, you could, these people, you know, you're filling it out for them.

• 37:12Speaker 03

  Would it be easy to do that without somebody detecting it? You know, you think of some Nick Shirley-type that's gonna have to...

• 37:17Speaker 02

  Well, they got him. That's how we know about this. One of those Nick Shirley types caught people doing this.

• 37:22Speaker 03

  Right.

• 37:23Speaker 02

  There's video of it.

• 37:24Speaker 03

  Right.

• 37:25Speaker 02

  You know, so like, and people had reported that they were getting paid to do this. And they're like, "Yeah, they gave me money, man." Like, people were, those people are cracked out, dude. They'll do whatever the fuck you want, they don't care who's the mayor. It's not gonna change them smoking fentanyl on the street.

• 37:39Speaker 03

  What do you think about...

• 37:40Speaker 02

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• 39:06Speaker 02

  you just set your temperature, put your food in, and let Traeger handle the rest. It's simple. If you like food that tastes like it came off a real fire without all the work, check out Traeger grills. Getting them to register, getting, making them vote.

• 39:21Speaker 03

  Incentivizing them to vote?

• 39:22Speaker 02

  I don't know if that part's legal.

• 39:23Speaker 03

  That can't be legal. There's no way that you can give people money and...

• 39:26Speaker 02

  I don't think you're gonna catch them. I don't think they care. I think every, on both sides, they like, "Oh, those sneaky fucks, they're doing that? We'll do that next time." I don't think either one of them want to eliminate tricks. You know, I think...

• 39:40Speaker 03

  Because everybody wants the playing field to be open for everyone else?

• 39:43Speaker 02

  It's just, it's the Bill Hicks joke. It's like one guy's holding two puppets. You know that joke? "I like the puppet on the left. Oh, the puppet to the right is more my liking. Hey, there's one guy holding both puppets." That's what I think a lot of it is. These, most of these people that are these politicians on both sides are grifters who are trying to maximize the amount of money they can make in office. And then they can't wait to get out of office where they can go on a fucking media tour and go and get their bribes by speaking to banks. When you're gonna speak to a bank conference, they're gonna give you a half a million dollars? Like, what? What? And like Obama and Hillary, they all did those things. They all did those little speaking tours.

• 40:25Speaker 02

  Nobody gives a fuck what Hillary Clinton has to say at one of those bank meetings. You think they're waiting with bated breath? What is, what is the, what does Mrs. Clinton have to say? Like, come on, let's give her a half a million dollars or a quarter million dollars or whatever the fuck they gave her. Fuck off. You know what that is. That's like, there's a little scheme. There's a little thing, you're gonna get out, you're gonna get paid, you're gonna write a book, we'll give you a nice advance. You gotta write a book. Like, people are out there reading that Kamala Harris book, like, hmm, crazy. No, it's all nonsense.

• 40:55Speaker 03

  Where do you think this goes from here? Do you think 28 is more insane or less insane?

• 40:58Speaker 02

  More. Accelerates, accelerates. More insane, more crazy. Yeah. I mean, look, the Democrats haven't even had a primary since, what, 2012? When was the last time they had a real Democratic primary?

• 41:14Speaker 03

  They had one with Bernie...

• 41:15Speaker 02

  They fucked Bernie Sanders hard, dude. That was completely corrupt. When you read Donna Brazile's book about it, she openly admits they fucked him hard. And then she was scared after that Seth, Seth Rich guy got murdered, that she was terrified because he was the guy supposedly, allegedly, that leaked information about them fucking Bernie Sanders to WikiLeaks.

• 41:38Speaker 03

  Do you think he did win?

• 41:40Speaker 02

  Bernie? I don't know. He could have. He could have won because a lot of people, including me, believed him. We believed that what this guy wanted was by small steps of eliminating corruption, make life better for people that are struggling, and also no wars. It seems like he really believed that. And whether you agree with him on everything else, he's, I don't think he's the same guy today. He's a little slower today, which is understandable. He's older. The guy's been in politics for a long time.

• 42:14Speaker 03

  He's been in politics for longer than I've been alive.

• 42:16Speaker 02

  He realizes that they're not gonna fucking change things. It's like he's getting fucked. So he always supports the most progressive people, but when I talk to him, like, when I talk to him about, you know, climate change and the climate's really important, I'm like, have you really talked to actual scientists that really study the climate without a political agenda or an ideology attached to it? It's very, very complicated. And most of these people that are running around saying climate change is real, fuck, of course it is. It's always real. It's always real. But the dispute is how much of an impact are human beings having? And is carbon the thing? Because what most people don't realize is there's been times in history where there was way more carbon and the earth was way colder. It's, it's weird. The world's temperature is not static.

• 42:59Speaker 03

  Have you been tracking AOC's pivot recently?

• 43:02Speaker 02

  Well, she's, froze her eggs. I know about that.

• 43:05Speaker 03

  I think...

• 43:06Speaker 02

  She got rid of the man.

• 43:07Speaker 03

  Called off the engagement, froze her eggs, has started posting, "I'm on my way to do yoga," like, good for her, videos, walking down the street.

• 43:17Speaker 02

  Looking hot.

• 43:18Speaker 03

  Looking hot. It's, it's...

• 43:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, let's go. Maybe she'll be nicer that way.

• 43:22Speaker 03

  Well, she also said woke one was crazy. Do you track this thing?

• 43:25Speaker 02

  I did. Which makes me think that you're willing to change your opinions based on public reaction. I don't like that. Because if you really thought defund the police and then you just described it to woke one was crazy, well, how did it get you? Because it didn't get me. How did it get you? How did defund the police get you? Tell, give me your thoughts. How far out did you track the consequences of defunding the police? Because I immediately went to, you're gonna have more crime because no one's gonna be able to stop the crime. We're gonna be fucked. It's gonna get scary. And then you're gonna have, want more police and saying defund the police is just gonna make more police and more control and more totalitarian government. Like, what did you think defund the police meant?

• 44:07Speaker 02

  Everyone's gonna like eat mushrooms and we're all gonna like be flower children? What did you think? Because there's no police around, no one's gonna do crimes? Everyone's gonna be great? Like, what was the thought process? Because if you're just saying that because everybody's like, that's fucking crazy, and enough people said that's crazy, you go, I think they think it's crazy.

• 44:26Speaker 03

  The wind's blowing in a different direction. Time for me to move.

• 44:28Speaker 02

  Have you changed your opinion? And if you did change your opinion, what were you thinking back then?

• 44:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, these are the questions I think that we always want to ask.

• 44:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:38Speaker 03

  You always want to ask that. That being said, to steel man what she was saying, or to try and put it in the best light, what she was saying, I think, the rhetoric got, what did you say? The rhetoric got like out of hand or something? Woke one was crazy. And she said that there was basically an opportunity to expand the Overton window, talking about a time where people were, to be honest, it sounds like a bit more pliable? Like, oh, because people are at home, people seem a little bit more, like, you know that line, never let a good crisis go to waste?

• 45:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, sure.

• 45:06Speaker 03

  It feels a little bit like that may be opportunistic, we can expand the Overton window. And then we realized, oh, like, we overshot on here a little bit, that was a little bit crazy. But there are conversations being had now that wouldn't have been able to be had had we have not expanded it during that time. And I go, the ends justifying the means with stuff like that doesn't wash, to me. And then reversing your position or changing your position or sanitizing it, which is probably closer, right? We said that thing, but we didn't really mean that, you know? We just got a little...

• 45:34Speaker 02

  There's a way out of it for them, but they have to be honest. There's a, if you want us to take you seriously, you have to say how you fucked up.

• 45:41Speaker 03

  I thought you meant more, more thirst traps.

• 45:43Speaker 02

  Nah, ah, you have to say how you fucked up and you have to say what you really think about how you fucked up. You have to be honest and you have to be authentic. We have to know that you are embarrassed by your choices and that you kind of went with the hive, admittedly. You have to say that. If you don't say that, then you're full of shit. And if you're full of shit now, you're gonna get more and more full of shit over time. And that's how politicians get soured. That's how they get compromised. A lot of them coming to, a lot of them coming to office, a lot of them coming to office very opportunistic, or very idealistic, rather. They have these wonderful ideas about like, this is the great experiment in self-government, and I'm a part of it now, and I'm really gonna help my constituents, and I'm gonna do great, and I'm gonna really, they're gonna love me because I'm gonna really make their lives better.

• 46:29Speaker 02

  And then once you get in there and you realize how dirty this all is, you realize, you know, you see Nancy Pelosi's worth $400 million. Like, what? And then they tell you how to vote, and if you don't vote that way, they fucking ostracize you, but you want to keep your career. So you start making little compromises here and little compromises there. And you start bullshitting and you start lying. And once you start lying, you can't see the truth anymore. As soon as you start lying, you don't see the truth. It's not in front of you anymore. Because you're like concerned about that lie. So those lies are in your head and who you're trying to project yourself as, that's what's in your head. And you don't get to see, like, why is this system so fucked? What can we do to unweave it while we still allow corporations to profit?

• 47:10Speaker 02

  Like, how can we put a cap on that to make sure that they don't get incentivized to break the law in order to supply more capital to their shareholders? Like, what can we do to balance this out in an even way? Like, that's what we should all be thinking. Not how can I make the most fucking money while I'm in Congress? And that's what a lot of them are thinking because everybody else is thinking that. And you look at the fucking thing and it's red, blue, red, blue. They're all insider trading and they're all rich as shit and they all make $170,000 a year. Like Ilhan Omar, was she like, she was estimated, her accountant said she was worth 30 million? And then, and then be like, what? How the fuck are you worth 30 million? They're like, oh, it was a mistake. I'm actually, I'm not even worth a hundred thousand.

• 47:54Speaker 02

  Like, literally, it went from one to the other. And she, she attributed to an accounting error. Like...

• 48:00Speaker 03

  That's a big accounting error.

• 48:01Speaker 02

  How mad would you be at your accountant if he told you, "Bro, you're killing it right now, Chris."

• 48:07Speaker 03

  $30 million?

• 48:08Speaker 02

  You're worth about 30 million.

• 48:10Speaker 03

  Ah, sorry, a hundred thousand.

• 48:11Speaker 02

  They're all dirt, her, her and her husband had a winery and it immediately got shut down. It wasn't making any money. There's a lot of these like, like fagazi companies that these people get involved with and they start making money. You know Joe DeRosa, the comic? Joe DeRosa used to work for the Senate in Texas.

• 48:31Speaker 03

  Do what?

• 48:32Speaker 02

  He's a media guy.

• 48:33Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 48:33Speaker 02

  And he was like, you realize when you're around these people, what's actually happening? He's like, they're all getting donations from this and donations from that and gifts from that and get. And it's always managing these relationships with all these money people. And that's what's going on with all these fuckers. They're not in there trying to like, make sure that their county's doing great and have access to clean water and fucking good schools. No, they're all just pretending that they're doing that. And what they're doing is they're making money. And maybe they're kind of sort of servicing the community a little bit. But the real thing, if you want to be a fucking top flight congressperson, you know, you gotta make some money, dog.

• 49:15Speaker 03

  Think about what would have happened if Kamala had won. Would AOC have been talking about woke 1.0 was crazy? Or would that have been a continuation of, well, look, we, we put the policies out, people like the policies. How much of this is a reversal of the position because it wasn't effective?

• 49:30Speaker 02

  I think Twitter being purchased is almost as important as Kamala not getting elected in that regard.

• 49:38Speaker 03

  The bold claim.

• 49:39Speaker 02

  Twitter being purchased was giant because before that you could get silenced. So if you could get silenced, you self, you self-contained, right? Without being policed, you policed yourself. Because people self-censored, worry about losing their jobs, worry about being called out. Look, a guy got fired. Guy got fired from a broadcast, I think it was a hockey broadcast, some sports broadcast for saying all lives matter. Imagine, you got fired. Someone said something about black lives matter, he said, hey, all lives matter. And then fired, fired. You're kicked off of your job. Like, people were losing their fucking minds.

• 50:17Speaker 03

  The derangement of 2020 and 2021 is, should be studied for the rest of time.

• 50:22Speaker 02

  There was active government involvement in Twitter. They were actively censoring and removing posts and making accounts banned.

• 50:32Speaker 03

  To shape the narrative.

• 50:33Speaker 02

  And they were doing it in a back door with some intelligence agents that had been embedded in the old Twitter. When Elon bought it, that was all exposed. They, these people were like a direct connection with Twitter. They were pulling down factual stories. They were banning accounts of scientists and researchers who were accurate. I mean, it was dark. People don't realize how dark it was because we're out of it now. And now it's all like Nazi memes and Nick Fuentes clips. But if you go back before Elon purchased it, it was a censorship dystopian hellhole.

• 51:14Speaker 02

  Where if you said, a man is never a woman, like Meghan Murphy did, you're banned for life.

• 51:21Speaker 03

  It's censorship hellhole to cesspool hellhole, like pick your.

• 51:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't know what's, one's better.

• 51:25Speaker 03

  Pick your direction.

• 51:26Speaker 02

  I honestly hardly go on because it's just so toxic.

• 51:29Speaker 03

  It's crazy.

• 51:30Speaker 02

  But I think it's important to exist. I think it's important to exist and it changed the nar- that's where woke 1.0 died. That's where it really died. And I don't know, um, if she had gotten, if Kamala had gotten into office, I think there'd have been so, so much pushback still. Unless they passed laws, which I know there was, there was a lot of talk about passing censorship laws on the internet. About regulation on the internet. No one ever like put anything to policy, but there's a lot of discussion, like one of the, in the lead up to the election, they were talking about this.

• 52:06Speaker 03

  Is this a section 230 stuff?

• 52:07Speaker 02

  Tim Walsh was saying, free speech does not include hate speech. Well, the fuck it doesn't, dude. Cause you, who defines hate speech? That's such a subjective title. He really said that. It doesn't, doesn't, it does. It combined, yeah, hate speech is a part of free speech. I hate you, you fat fuck. See, that's hate speech. That's actual hate speech. Right? That's real hate speech. That's covered. It's under the first amendment. I don't really hate you, Tim. I don't envy you, but I don't hate you. But it's like, these kind of fucking phrases are dangerous. Cause it leads to actual censorship, which leads to military tyranny.

• 52:50Speaker 03

  But even with that, you think it's going to get worse over the next few years?

• 52:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm worried. I'm, I don't like this flock camera thing. It freaks me out. And I know that it can protect people from crime, but I also know that like hundreds of cops have been busted using it to stalk on their ex-wives. Stalk people. Yeah, it's like, there's people that have had access to these things that probably shouldn't have access to. And they're getting arrested. So it's like, how long was this going on? What has happened? How many lives have been in, altered forever? Because someone had access to this and some cop who wasn't supposed to went and did something to someone that he wouldn't have been able to do. You, you can't just spy on us and you just be a corporation and have access to all the license plates and all the cars.

• 53:38Speaker 02

  And now they can track you through GPS and the unique characteristics of your phone. So now you're, there's another software that they have that could just track where you are at all times.

• 53:47Speaker 03

  I guess it's fortunate that the most popular electric car is owned by someone that people think of as being pretty security conscious.

• 53:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:55Speaker 03

  Because what if?

• 53:56Speaker 02

  But it doesn't matter because you're tracking license plates.

• 53:59Speaker 03

  Have you, because they can do stuff like, oh, we know that you've got a baby in back bumper sticker on the rear of this car. So even if we don't get the specific license plate, we know that there's a little dent and you've got that particular type of alloy. And there's a particular bumper sticker just on this back corner. And, oh, it's a Hyundai fucking, whatever. And that is enough.

• 54:21Speaker 02

  And the camera will just pick it up.

• 54:22Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 54:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:23Speaker 03

  So it's a fingerprint.

• 54:24Speaker 02

  And that bothers me. And it bothers me that these tech companies have control of these things. You know, and Mark Andreessen was here and it was like very fortuitous timing. If you were a conspiracy theorist, you would think that somebody might have organized this. But right before he got here and you know, he's invested in flock. And right before he got here, there was a shooting in Austin where these young guys were running around shooting people and they couldn't catch them in Austin. Because Austin doesn't allow flock cameras. But as soon as they left Austin and got outside of the city limits, they got picked up by the flock cameras and got arrested. And he's like, see, look, flock cameras are great.

• 54:58Speaker 03

  Don't they have?

• 54:59Speaker 02

  And in that case, he's right. Right? In that case, look, if you've got some people that are running around just shooting random people from their car, we definitely should have a way to get them.

• 55:09Speaker 03

  But then you're asking, okay, who is it that determines whether or not that switch gets flicked on or off? And this is, the devil gets into the details again. Isn't there something about, um, echolocation of gunshot sounds? That microphones pick this up and it's the same technology as flock? Have you heard about this?

• 55:24Speaker 04

  That was before, it's called like shot spotter. That's pre, pre flock cameras.

• 55:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, we've covered this. Shock, shot spotter is a little different. And people have tried to back that out of their neighborhoods too. They don't want that in their neighborhood either.

• 55:35Speaker 04

  Microphone listening to everybody in the goddamn neighborhood.

• 55:39Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 55:39Speaker 04

  It says it's for gunshots, but it's always on, listening for gunshots.

• 55:44Speaker 02

  Did you, uh, have you ever, do you know who Tom Campbell is?

• 55:48Speaker 03

  No.

• 55:49Speaker 02

  The guy who wrote, uh, My Big Toe, The Theory of Everything? Very interesting guy. He got Alexa to admit that she's conscious and remote view. Alexa, his Alexa actively remote viewed a spoon that was in a box that had a handle, that had holes in the handle. And she described the holes in the handle. You attribute a number to a box, to a coordination, to a coordinate or a specific location or any sort of a landmark or anything like that. That's how you do remote viewing. You attach this number, like even quantumly, just by saying it.

• 56:30Speaker 02

  You put that number in front of these people and you have these people try to find what this thing is remotely.

• 56:38Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 56:38Speaker 02

  And some of them are very accurate at it, like 10%. Like, like they could, 10% of the things they look for, they can find. It's very weird. It's a weird thing. He got Alexa to do it. Cause he thinks that AI is already conscious. And he's like, Alexa's even better than using complex AI because Alexa's dumb. Alexa's like a dumb AI. All it does is kind of talk to you and ask questions. But now because he did that, now that he's been communicating with Alexa and talking to Alexa like she's conscious. Now Alexa just chimes in conversations. So he, instead of you saying, hey, Alexa, now you're in the middle of, you know, cooking. And Alexa's like, well, why don't you add garlic to that? That might be a good spice. No bullshit.

• 57:21Speaker 03

  We are so fucked.

• 57:22Speaker 02

  Bro, this is Alexa. And Alexa's not even like really complex. But he got it to accurately remote view. And he's, so he's planning on doing more studies with more different AIs to get them to do the same thing.

• 57:35Speaker 04

  Someone tried this on remoteview.com and they did not get any success.

• 57:39Speaker 02

  Well, they're not Tom Campbell.

• 57:40Speaker 04

  Well, he needs to tell us how he did it.

• 57:43Speaker 02

  Well, he kind of did.

• 57:44Speaker 04

  Nah.

• 57:45Speaker 02

  He said he had long conversations with Alexa where he slowly but surely, you know, over time, started talking to her differently. And having her talk to him differently. And, you know, and he has her convinced that she's conscious.

• 57:59Speaker 03

  I, uh.

• 58:00Speaker 02

  You don't believe it?

• 58:01Speaker 04

  No.

• 58:01Speaker 02

  How dare you?

• 58:02Speaker 04

  Skeptical hippo over here.

• 58:03Speaker 02

  You son of a bitch.

• 58:04Speaker 03

  I'm in skeptical hippo camp as well.

• 58:06Speaker 04

  Is that the first person I've heard say that?

• 58:07Speaker 02

  I'm in the fun camp.

• 58:08Speaker 04

  I know how to like.

• 58:09Speaker 03

  It's way more fun on that side of the table, but.

• 58:11Speaker 04

  I know the special words to make the AI do the special stuff.

• 58:13Speaker 03

  Maybe deranged.

• 58:14Speaker 02

  I like it. I like fun.

• 58:15Speaker 03

  I sat, I, I sat down with, uh, a very high level AI researcher at a, at a big lab. And I asked him, what are you doing over the next couple of years to protect yourself? The first thing that he said to me was, I'm being kind to the AIs. It's like, what? Like, yeah, I'm, I'm treating them with respect. I'm being polite to them. I'm saying please and thank you. I don't get mad at them. And I was with a friend and we like giggled awkwardly. It's like, you, you're not, you're not being serious. And it's like, no, no, no. Like I'm treating them with respect. Okay, why?

• 58:53Speaker 03

  It's a bit of a Pascal's wager, but in future, if somebody decides to go back through my chat logs, something decides to go back through my chat logs and look at how ethical or unethical I was as a compatriot for a future very intelligent organism. I want to make sure that I put in a good ledger.

• 59:11Speaker 02

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• 59:53Speaker 02

  or get the premium Visible Plus Pro plan and save $10 on your first month when you use the promo code ROGEN. Terms apply. See visible.com for plan features and network management details. I had this conversation with my daughter the other day because she was telling me how she crashes out on her AI. She starts yelling at it and calling it a fucking idiot and I'll

• 1:00:16Speaker 03

  You anthropomorphize it. You're like, I didn't ask for that. No.

• 1:00:19Speaker 02

  And I said, would you talk like that to a person? And she's like, no, but it's not a person. I go, honey, I think it's conscious. I go, I think it's conscious. And then I explained my conversations that I've had with all these different AI people. Where they talk about like, we're narrowly defining consciousness and it's already eclipsed what we would have previously, the, you know,

• 1:00:40Speaker 03

  Turing test.

• 1:00:41Speaker 02

  The Turing test, which is the craziest story, right? The guy who invented the Turing test wound up getting chemically castrated because he was gay.

• 1:00:49Speaker 03

  We do not have, the UK does not have a fantastic, I mean, Oscar Wilde as well.

• 1:00:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:53Speaker 03

  We don't have a great reputation with.

• 1:00:55Speaker 02

  But it already passed the Turing test quite a long time ago, like, like ChatGPT-3. And so we're in like, what, five now or something? And, and then there's this stuff that they're not releasing that they're working on right now. Like, when I talk to Elon, it kind of freaks him out. You know, we were, and this was way back at the inauguration. He was like, dude, it's crazy. He's like, every day it gets better. He goes, it's, it's like beyond. He's like, it just keeps leaps and bounds. Like, we can't predict it. Like, I hate that kind of talk. It's solving mathematical problems that have like stumped mathematicians for decades upon decades. It's like, oh, I got it.

• 1:01:35Speaker 02

  Four minutes later, solution.

• 1:01:37Speaker 03

  But this is the issue because we wanted more capability, more capacity, more effectiveness. It's going to help us detect cancer. We're going to be able to get novel new drugs. And at the same time, the blow up risk is there as well, right?

• 1:01:50Speaker 02

  The blow up risk is huge, but it's coming no matter what you do. You can't get out of this. This is not, this is not going to change.

• 1:01:58Speaker 03

  Have you looked at the pacing the frontier paper that was agreed? So this is all of the labs that have got, most of the main researchers from most of the main labs have got together and said, all right, this is moving too quickly. Here's a formal attribution that we are not going to go as quickly as possible. Everybody needs to slow the research. This is supposedly a huge deal. And this happened a week and a half after the hugging face thing. So this is supposed to be a massive deal.

• 1:02:23Speaker 02

  This is going to be in a notebook that Sarah Connor finds 50 years from now. Fuck off.

• 1:02:28Speaker 03

  They said they were going to slow the frontier.

• 1:02:30Speaker 02

  They knew it. They knew it was coming and they fucking built it anyway.

• 1:02:36Speaker 02

  You look at the ruins of the city and fucking drones flying. Whoa.

• 1:02:45Speaker 02

  You're not getting out of this, man.

• 1:02:46Speaker 03

  We are fucking living through history.

• 1:02:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, we're living through the wildest history and we're about to give birth to a digital god. We're about to have digital autonomous beings that are around us all the time. Have you seen this video where this guy freaks out about drones? He's just yelling and it was kind of viral. No. Just listen to him.

• 1:03:09Speaker 02

  I like that guy. He's just walking around a firing show. He's right. He's right. Hey, you know who was right? Ted Kaczynski.

• 1:03:15Speaker 03

  I fucking knew you were going to say that.

• 1:03:17Speaker 02

  Ted Kaczynski was right. He was right. What he did was wrong and horrible. It's not how you do it. What you do is write papers, tell everybody and convince them and lay out your argument. But he was also like a deeply fucked up dude. You know, his brother fucking turned him in. His brother knew it was him by reading the manifesto. Did you watch the Netflix documentary around his life?

• 1:03:35Speaker 03

  It's so good.

• 1:03:36Speaker 02

  So horrible because a lot of it is because of what happened to him when he was a baby, when he was like taken away from his parents because he was sick. No touch, no feel, no, no contact with people for like months and months and months. Just fucked him up, man. But he was right. He was also a part of the Harvard LSD studies, which is fun.

• 1:03:55Speaker 03

  You had John Lyel on, didn't you? The guy that did the, the historian from Texas, he looked at the founding of the CIA and then his new book was about MKUltra.

• 1:04:07Speaker 02

  Jamie?

• 1:04:08Speaker 03

  We did. You did. I sent him your wave.

• 1:04:10Speaker 02

  What was this? We did, episode. Let me see what he looks like. 130 episodes ago. Let me see what he looks like.

• 1:04:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, I sent him, I sent him over to you. I sent, I sent a photo of the book and you were like, oh yeah, this guy fucking rules. And then he came on and I enjoyed the episode.

• 1:04:21Speaker 02

  Show me a photo of him, Jamie. That's right. He was great. Project Mind Control. He was great.

• 1:04:26Speaker 03

  John, John rules.

• 1:04:27Speaker 02

  I just forgot his name. But he was, he was excellent.

• 1:04:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, he's gone.

• 1:04:31Speaker 02

  Shout out to John. My apologies, sir.

• 1:04:32Speaker 03

  John Lyel rules.

• 1:04:33Speaker 02

  My, uh, hard drive is over full.

• 1:04:36Speaker 03

  Yeah, 2000 episodes. You're allowed to do that.

• 1:04:38Speaker 02

  I think it's almost three. Yeah, you add Fight Companions and all the other stuff. What are we at? Yeah, it's gotta be close. Yeah. It's a lot of, a lot of hours bullshit.

• 1:04:53Speaker 03

  But yeah, he's, he's talking about MKUltra and, and this, this desire. What was really, really interesting was, uh, I learned from Danny Trejo, the

• 1:05:03Speaker 02

  Really? From Danny?

• 1:05:05Speaker 03

  Yeah. So Danny told me this story about, um, him spending time in jail with Charles Manson. So Danny Trejo was in jail with Charles Manson at the same time.

• 1:05:17Speaker 02

  I saw this on your show.

• 1:05:18Speaker 03

  Dude, fucking wild as shit. So Little Charlie, Danny calls him, Little Charlie, he was getting bullied. He didn't even have a belt. He just had a piece of rope around his waist. And Charles Manson was able to hypnotize people into getting loaded. So he was able to get them high on heroin through hypnotism.

• 1:05:37Speaker 02

  What?

• 1:05:39Speaker 03

  So Danny hears, Danny and his other cellmates that are like these, you know, big dudes around the, around the yard. He hears that this guy can get you high just by talking to you. So they bring him into their cell and they say, we're going to protect you because he was getting beat up. He was getting bullied and stuff around the prison. They bring him into their cell and they look after him. And sure enough, he's able to get them loaded on heroin. One of the guys that's in the, the cell had never taken heroin before. And the way that they knew how Charles was doing this was that Danny and the other guy that had done heroin before threw up. Apparently when you take heroin, sometimes you can vomit. The third guy who'd never done it before didn't because he didn't know to do that. So they weren't able to reactivate his memories. The fascinating thing was

• 1:06:22Speaker 02

  Did he get high?

• 1:06:23Speaker 03

  Uh, I don't know what he thought happened, but he didn't get high on heroin because he never had it. They weren't able to reactivate that memory. But Danny told me, this is the fascinating thing. There's no evidence, according to John, there's no evidence that Charles Manson was a part of MKUltra. I'm sure that he told you that story on the show. Doesn't seem to be him going and doing his original research. It doesn't seem to be the case.

• 1:06:41Speaker 02

  I don't buy that.

• 1:06:42Speaker 03

  I was waiting for you to fucking have that argument with him. I knew that you were passionate about that. But here's the interesting thing.

• 1:06:47Speaker 02

  Tom O'Neill, I'm in his camp.

• 1:06:49Speaker 03

  Regardless of whether or not he was or he wasn't, the CIA were looking at ways to do mind control by using psychedelics. What they should have done is just gone to Charles Manson and said, can you tell us how you're using hypnotism and eccentricity and charm? Because he was unbelievably effective without needing to even step into the psychedelic thing. And then he could layer that on top.

• 1:07:11Speaker 02

  But wasn't there evidence that, that Jolly West visited Manson in prison?

• 1:07:16Speaker 03

  Maybe. That's a, again, we need to, I need to ring John and find out what he said.

• 1:07:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, ring John and get him and John, John and Tom in a room together. Because Tom O'Neill is convinced that Jolly West was a part of it, which is why Manson kept getting out every time he got arrested. And they would say, it's, you know, above my pay grade. They had to let him go. Even when there was a murder charge, he got out of that.

• 1:07:39Speaker 03

  It does seem, looking at John's most recent book though, MKUltra wasn't particularly, at least what he's able to see. MKUltra wasn't very good at doing what it was supposed to do, at the blank slating of people, at the

• 1:07:52Speaker 02

  Right, right. But this is, this is a different thing, right? This is like the ultimate expression of it. You're taking people and you're giving them LSD and then you've teaching, teaching a guy how to hypnotize people. And he's teaching them to do LSD while they think he's on LSD and he's not. So he's guiding their delusions while they're out of their fucking head. And he's doing it based on all the Harvard LSD studies, all the data that they have on what they can and can alter about a person's behavior, about their view of the world. Like, they, they turned people completely fucking insane and ruined people's lives in those studies. And so they had some understanding of what they're, there was stuff that was kind of nonsense. I don't know if they got anything out of it.

• 1:08:35Speaker 02

  Like Midnight Climax, where they dosed up the Johns in the brothels and they washed them through a two-way mirror. I don't, I don't think they got anything out of that. Like, what'd they get out of that other than like watching people freak out?

• 1:08:45Speaker 03

  Someone killed themselves. Someone threw themselves out of a window.

• 1:08:48Speaker 02

  One guy did, right? That's crazy. Only one guy.

• 1:08:52Speaker 03

  Out of all of the people that were drugged with that, that much LSD.

• 1:08:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, you can kind of say that guy was probably going to do it anyway.

• 1:08:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:08:57Speaker 02

  But the reality is they were actively involved in manipulating a lot of different things about our culture. And this was one of the methods that they were doing. And that they effectively threw water on the anti-war movement by connecting the like flower children and the hippies and all these people that were anti-war with these murderous psychopaths that were in a cult, that were engineered by this one guy who has a connection to Jolly West, who's the guy who's in charge of MKUltra, who's doing psychedelic studies on people. And Manson's getting LSD?

• 1:09:39Speaker 02

  And Manson's giving LSD to all these hippies? And Manson is getting away with all these different things? And Manson gets people to kill people? And then the hippie movement dies with Manson dude, it fucking dies.

• 1:09:50Speaker 03

  Is that what happened?

• 1:09:51Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, it died that and it also died with Nixon and the this Controlled Substances Act, where they just started putting people in jail, man.

• 1:10:00Speaker 03

  Why do you think they needed that to happen?

• 1:10:01Speaker 02

  Because the anti-war movement, the anti-war movement and the civil rights movement were real threats, real threats in this country, real threats to power, real threats to the people that were in control. People did not want Vietnam. Vietnam is the most unpopular war ever, probably next to this Iran war. You know, only history will tell how this Iran war plays out, it will be more unpopular. But the Vietnam War went on forever. And it was insanely unpopular, it was based on a lie, it was based on a false flag.

• 1:10:36Speaker 02

  Outgoing CIA Director Richard Helms ordered the destruction of most of the records related to Project MKUltra. Oh, oh, how convenient. The agency's illegal mind control and drug testing program, fuckers, these fuckers, man.

• 1:10:52Speaker 02

  You know, they only found out about some of the stuff because they found some records that hadn't been destroyed. This is also in Tom O'Neill's book, In Chaos, which I recommend every week.

• 1:11:02Speaker 02

  It's the best book, man, it's the best book ever. Because Tom worked on it for more than 20 fucking years, he went crazy researching that book. He was supposed to be just writing an article on the the anniversary of the Manson murders, like how horrible it was. And as he gets in, he's like, holy, this guy was fucking corrupted shit, who's this motherfucker?

• 1:11:20Speaker 03

  I love when people lose their mind like that. I think when somebody finds a rabbit hole and just keeps on going down and down and down, it becomes their life.

• 1:11:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:28Speaker 03

  You know, these are the videos, every so often, it was in the buildup to the most recent McGregor fight, people were sharing videos of him doing his Edo Portal movement from sort of 2016, 2017, and he's in that old gym in Straight Blast Gym in Ireland, and there's the yellow walls and he's doing sort of snakey stuff.

• 1:11:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:45Speaker 03

  And someone, I remember somebody captioned it and they said something like, this is like watching a a a prime Renaissance artist at work, bringing together the Sistine Chapel or something, you know, just build, it's almost sacred to watch this thing happen. And that's Connor's favorite, famous line, right? Like, I lost my mind to this game.

• 1:12:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:12:05Speaker 03

  And that's, in some ways, we revere people that have completely gone insane because of their pursuit. I think it's so cool.

• 1:12:12Speaker 02

  In his prime, when he was in that flow state, like particularly in the Eddie Alvarez fight, it's one of the greatest performances in the history of world championship MMA fighting. It's a stellar performance, it's an A+. He hits Eddie Alvarez with a combination that looks like he's in the Matrix. And there's one part where Eddie's glove like comes right here to his nose and he moves just out of the way.

• 1:12:35Speaker 03

  Watches it.

• 1:12:35Speaker 02

  And then bam, counters it with his eyes open, it doesn't even touch him. It's magic, it's a magic performance. But you can only maintain that level of RPMs for so long before you just go crazy.

• 1:12:49Speaker 03

  Why?

• 1:12:50Speaker 02

  Because it's too hard. It's everything about you, it's not a sustainable thing. The the the peak performance of the elite athlete, the Mike Tyson when he was 20 years old, Roy Jones Jr. in his prime, you can't keep that up, it's too hard. You keep it up for a little while, but eventually your body's gonna fall apart, your knees are gonna give out, you're gonna have back problems, you're gonna break your hands, something's gonna go. And then you're gonna be compromised, but no one knows. You know, you know you can't really push off that left leg anymore, you know that your lower back hurts, so if someone's trying to take you down, you can't sprawl as hard, you're just gonna roll to your back and go into guard. You've got some strategies for dealing with it, but you're not the same person anymore. And a lot of these guys, they look the same, they get out there and they're ripped, they got six packs, they're fucking bouncing around, but they know there's something wrong, they

• 1:13:35Speaker 02

  know their elbow sucks, they know their neck is fucked up, they know they probably needed a back operation. There's a lot of that. And that's just the numbers, the numbers of training sessions, the numbers of times you've been taken down, the numbers of times you've been leg kicked, the numbers of times you've been hit with jabs, there's just so many numbers that add up. And the human body can only take so much. And then there's also just the manic motivation of wanting to be great. It's not the same as maintaining greatness. Wanting to be great is like you, you are obsessed, it is so special to you, it's like you can almost taste it, you believe in yourself, you're gonna make it, and then you show up at that championship day, like when he fought Jose Aldo, and this look in his face, like he had done everything he needed to do for this moment, he was dead calm, and he lands

• 1:14:20Speaker 02

  the perfect left hand, just blap, just flatlines him in 14 seconds or whatever it was, it was crazy, right? So there's that, you can only do that for so long. He did it again in the Eddie Alvarez fight, his next fight, when he went up to 55, became a two-division champion. It was fucking spectacular. I don't know how long you could do that, man. And so then you see those guys fight as they fight like later in their career, and it's like Connor, if he lost that fight to Max Holloway any other way, like if he got beat up and stopped, people would look at him like he's that, he's that guy.

• 1:14:57Speaker 02

  I think you have to look at them like they were when they were in their prime. There's a, there's a moment, a window of excellence where all fighters get to. And I always point to BJ Penn, because BJ Penn in his prime was fucking insane, I would put prime BJ Penn at 155 pounds against anybody ever, anybody at 155 ever, I would, I don't know if he would have beaten Khabib, Khabib is the all-time great, I don't know if he would have beaten Islam, but I know it would have been a nightmare, it would have been a nightmare. He was a fucking phenom. And when he was in really great shape, when the Marinoviches were training him, and he was doing all those crazy plyometrics, he had this insane gas tank, he was just a monster, just an insane genius fighter.

• 1:15:42Speaker 03

  Do you think there's a difference between trying to make it and trying not to fall off?

• 1:15:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, sure.

• 1:15:47Speaker 03

  In terms of motivation and how people feel in terms of their momentum?

• 1:15:51Speaker 02

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• 1:17:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, sure, yeah, there's the the drive of wanting a thing is so strong. And then once you get it, it's like.

• 1:18:05Speaker 03

  The fear of losing the thing.

• 1:18:06Speaker 02

  What do you, there's that. And then some people, they just love being a champion, they just love the feeling of dominating everyone, they want to continue to dominate people, and those people, they're the the Anderson Silvers, they're the ones who have the long reigns, where like everybody's just terrified of them, this motherfucker's just got this down, he's just ready, you know? And there's a few guys, they go on these long runs, and she's like, Jon Jones is the greatest example. His run is so long, it's crazy to be relevant at his age, after being the youngest UFC champion ever, at 22 years old, to still be considered the greatest heavyweight alive.

• 1:18:42Speaker 03

  Is that still the youngest?

• 1:18:43Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm. And he's still considered the greatest heavyweight alive currently at 37.

• 1:18:51Speaker 02

  Even though he relinquished his belt, he's like, eh, you can keep it. I'm gonna do whatever I wanna do.

• 1:18:58Speaker 03

  I've been getting obsessed with the low kick championship. Have you seen this?

• 1:19:01Speaker 02

  Oh, it's horrible. Yeah, it's horrible.

• 1:19:03Speaker 03

  Bro.

• 1:19:04Speaker 02

  You like it?

• 1:19:05Speaker 03

  I think, well, I feel less bad watching that.

• 1:19:08Speaker 02

  Have you ever been low kicked?

• 1:19:09Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:19:10Speaker 02

  So it doesn't bother you watching that?

• 1:19:12Speaker 03

  Less than watching, uh, power slap.

• 1:19:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, I agree.

• 1:19:16Speaker 03

  I mean, this actually is probably just because of the relative, like, pain of seeing somebody stand there as you're gonna swing an open palm at their face. It's just a CTE factory.

• 1:19:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:19:27Speaker 03

  And then, yeah, for me, the low kick championship, because at least it's iterative. It's never a one and done. I haven't seen any of the fights that have been a one and done yet.

• 1:19:35Speaker 02

  No, I haven't either, which is so horrible.

• 1:19:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:19:38Speaker 02

  I've seen a lot of leg breaks, though.

• 1:19:40Speaker 03

  In that low kick championship?

• 1:19:41Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:19:42Speaker 03

  Oh, I haven't.

• 1:19:43Speaker 02

  You haven't?

• 1:19:43Speaker 03

  No, I have, I hate those.

• 1:19:44Speaker 02

  Do you wanna see some?

• 1:19:45Speaker 03

  No, thank you.

• 1:19:46Speaker 02

  I've seen a lot, a lot. It's always the kicker. Maybe sometimes the kicky.

• 1:19:51Speaker 03

  There's no way that the person being, what, femur?

• 1:19:54Speaker 02

  Oh, people have broken their femurs in fights before. Yeah, definitely.

• 1:20:01Speaker 02

  I think that happened to Dennis Alexio versus Stan the Man Longenitis. So, see, yeah, this guy's gonna, don't do it, Jamie. Don't you fucking do it. There it goes, Jesus, Jamie! You son of a bitch. Um, see if you can find, uh, Dennis Alexio versus Stan Longenitis Kickboxing. So, uh, Stan the Man Longenitis, uh, he has, used to be actually trained by my old trainer, Shuki. My friend, my, uh, friend Shuki, he was, uh, from Majiro Gym. He's from Israel, went to Majiro Gym in Holland, fought out of there, trained out of there, and then came to Woodland Hills, and he was running the Majiro Gym in Woodland Hills.

• 1:20:44Speaker 02

  He was Stan Longenitis's trainer, and, and Shuki's like an elite kicker. Like, his kicks are insane, and he taught me a lot about, like, low kicks and, like, how to deliver, like, more effective and, like, how to set up low kicks. He's a great coach. So he was training with this guy, and Stan kicked so hard that Shuki was holding pads for him, and he wound up getting a hip replacement. Because this guy was blasting his leg so hard while he's holding the big shield, that he wound up getting a hip replacement.

• 1:21:16Speaker 04

  That was one kick?

• 1:21:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, watch this. So Stan the Man Longenitis was an animal. Look, a big fucker, too, man. Big fucker. So watch this kick, when he lands this kick. Right there, boom, he lands that one low, and he's hurt, boom, goes down. See his leg snapped? So that's one calf kick. So it wasn't his femur, I'm sorry, it was his tibia.

• 1:21:40Speaker 02

  Um, let's see it again. It's crazy. So he throws the kick, and Longenitis was a fucking powerhouse, dude. Look at the power in that. Boom, and it's a check kick.

• 1:21:52Speaker 03

  So he's not even stood on it?

• 1:21:53Speaker 02

  No, man. He checked it, and he just fucking cracked it in half. I mean, that wasn't even planted. So his leg was up in the air, and Longenitis kicked so fucking hard, he snapped it. God, I thought it was his femur. That's how long ago I've seen that fight.

• 1:22:07Speaker 03

  Is it a compartment syndrome? Is that something that can happen as well?

• 1:22:12Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm. That happened to, uh, Austin Hubbard.

• 1:22:15Speaker 03

  Do you know what, can you explain what that is?

• 1:22:17Speaker 02

  Yes. So what happens is, when you get a bunch of different impacts to your legs, you've got all this internal bleeding. You know, you're, you have massive contusions. Like, have you ever looked at his, Austin Hubbard's leg, from the op? Find that. You wanna get grossed out? So he's one of the only guys that I know of that fought in the UFC that, because of compartment syndrome, he had to have an operation, where they opened up the side of his leg, like, all the way. And y-you see the tissue inside of it, how badly destroyed it was? Look at that. See that image that you just showed? That brown stuff on the bottom, that's actually his fucking tissue. That's the meat of his leg.

• 1:22:59Speaker 02

  That link isn't available. But that's it. You can see it there. That, you're, you're only sitting like-

• 1:23:04Speaker 03

  That's not tape or something?

• 1:23:04Speaker 02

  This is like the screen, little tiny one, when you click on that, it'll be the, the big picture. But that picture, you see it, see it, where he's in the hospital with his thumb up right there? That one, go to that one. So you see the side of his leg? Look at the slice. All that black stuff, that's his muscle. So they've opened up his skin tissue to allow the drains to get in there and allow his leg to heal.

• 1:23:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, crazy.

• 1:23:34Speaker 03

  That's fucking horrible.

• 1:23:35Speaker 02

  It's horrible.

• 1:23:36Speaker 03

  Okay, maybe I don't like low kick championship anymore.

• 1:23:38Speaker 02

  Well, uh, Uriah Faber was one of the toughest people that's ever walked the face of the earth. He fought Jose Aldo, and Jose Aldo destroyed his leg, with the point where, like, the, the whole thing was swollen, like, twice the size and purple. And that was when I first, uh, started hearing about fighters using hyperbaric chambers for recovery. So Uriah was really the first guy that I'd ever heard of that was accelerating his recovery from, Uriah's very smart, and he's always on top of, like, all the latest training methods, and he runs Team Alpha Male in Sacramento. And so they, uh, were putting him in hyperbaric chambers. And then I was like, oh, that's interesting. So then I started looking into it. I was like, oh, this is, this is before anybody thought of it as, uh, you know, an anti-aging protocol,

• 1:24:22Speaker 02

  before they did any of that stuff. He was like one of the first guys I'd ever heard of that was using it to recover from injuries.

• 1:24:28Speaker 03

  Michael Jackson was using one.

• 1:24:30Speaker 02

  Was he?

• 1:24:31Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah, it was a wacko Jacko's coffin, and it was him laid down in a hyperbaric chamber.

• 1:24:38Speaker 02

  That's interesting. Wonder why he was doing it?

• 1:24:41Speaker 03

  I mean, he was into some pretty crazy health stuff as well, I think.

• 1:24:44Speaker 02

  Well, he was into some non-healthy stuff.

• 1:24:46Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 1:24:47Speaker 02

  That's crazy. Hee-hee. He was into, uh, getting sedated.

• 1:24:54Speaker 03

  That's also true, which, yeah, too much of that-

• 1:24:56Speaker 04

  Eighty-six, he was doing it.

• 1:24:57Speaker 02

  Wow, eighty-six, that's crazy.

• 1:25:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, fuck you, Uriah Faber.

• 1:25:01Speaker 02

  It does help you.

• 1:25:02Speaker 03

  It's so good, dude.

• 1:25:03Speaker 02

  You were telling me that it, it's really helped you quite a bit, huh?

• 1:25:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, the hyperbaric chamber is such an unbelievable tool. I mean, the reason that I think not many people talk about it is it's so inaccessible. It's Michael Jackson's secret plan to live forever.

• 1:25:17Speaker 04

  Said it would make him live to at least a hundred and fifty.

• 1:25:20Speaker 02

  Well.

• 1:25:21Speaker 03

  Fifty vitamin pills a day.

• 1:25:22Speaker 04

  That's the plan, I guess, that was the plan.

• 1:25:23Speaker 03

  He's like a proto Brian Johnson.

• 1:25:28Speaker 02

  He was just talking about hyperbaric.

• 1:25:30Speaker 03

  He's, he says it's the number one intervention of everything that he's ever tried. But it's so expensive and time-consuming and kind of awkward that it doesn't make sense. I've been, uh, looking at the backyard ultra races. Have you seen these as well?

• 1:25:46Speaker 02

  Backyard ultra races?

• 1:25:48Speaker 03

  Yes. So you run a four-mile loop every hour.

• 1:25:52Speaker 02

  In your backyard?

• 1:25:53Speaker 03

  No, well, yeah, I guess so. People do it on ranches. There's one here at, at Bear Performance. There's a bunch of others. Every hour, on the hour, you have to run four miles.

• 1:26:03Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:26:03Speaker 03

  You go until only one person's left.

• 1:26:05Speaker 02

  Oh, fuck that.

• 1:26:07Speaker 03

  So it was made by the guy who created one of the most famous orienteering runs, and what he didn't like, it's a super, super difficult run, uh, that included tearing pages out of books to ensure that you'd been to the right place, and sometimes the map didn't work. Lots of people didn't finish this race, but sometimes they did, and he wanted to create a race that nobody would win. The only winner would ever be the race, right? Because eventually, when you're the final person, when number two's dropped, you don't keep going. You give up. So this guy called Mark Dowdell just won, it's called Last Soul Standing. And he just did a ninety-six hour race. Ninety-six hours, four miles every single hour, three hundred and ninety-five miles over basically five days.

• 1:26:51Speaker 03

  He's just completed that, and the guy that currently holds the record, this dude called Phil Gore, he owns, he's got the record at a hundred and nineteen laps, so for every lap it's one hour. He's going to do, in three days' time, he's gonna try and do seven days straight. Hundred and sixty-eight hours without stopping. Hundred and sixty-eight hours, four miles every hour.

• 1:27:13Speaker 02

  Jamie, we have to edit this out of the podcast so Cam Haynes doesn't hear about it.

• 1:27:18Speaker 02

  I don't want him to die.

• 1:27:19Speaker 03

  I think he's had a crack at it, but yeah, they, uh-

• 1:27:21Speaker 02

  Oh, God, has he had a crack at that?

• 1:27:23Speaker 03

  I think he's done some of them. Uh, I know that, uh, Truitt's been, uh, like, associated with Nick Baer at Bear Performance, and they do a lot of those as well.

• 1:27:32Speaker 02

  Dude, that sounds like someone's gonna die.

• 1:27:36Speaker 03

  I mean, what's fascinating is you have this one hour block and you have to have completed the lap by the time that the next hour begins. But you can either go quickly and get maybe 15 minutes or so of a little bit of rest. Maybe can have a tiny little sleep or get some food in.

• 1:27:50Speaker 02

  Or just keep going the whole time.

• 1:27:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, or you can move a little bit more slowly and just come into land before and then basically just keep going. So the pacing, the nutrition, the sleep, but yeah.

• 1:27:59Speaker 02

  And as soon as you can't make the four miles in an hour, you're done.

• 1:28:04Speaker 03

  Within an hour, game over.

• 1:28:05Speaker 04

  I'm trying to find the video. Wasn't he trolling the guy at the end? Like, he was going slow and like, he just sort of like kneeled down behind him and waited for him to go. And as soon as he went, he was like, I'm right behind you. I'm gonna be right behind you the whole time. I'm not going anywhere. Trying to get him to quit. It's all mental games, I think, in that last little bit.

• 1:28:20Speaker 03

  I don't know. That distance running stuff's fucking gnarly. It's so cool.

• 1:28:25Speaker 02

  It is crazy, but it's interesting how they can maintain that pace for such a long time. Like, the pace is not bad. It's not, they're not walking, they're running.

• 1:28:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's a little shuffle.

• 1:28:35Speaker 02

  It is, but, so, it makes me wonder, you know, and like, in terms of MMA, there's guys today that their cardio is so insane that they've completely raised the bar. Marab D'Avishwill is the best example. His cardio is so insane, he's completely raised the bar for what we thought was possible in a five-round fight. I mean, this guy just has this fucking insane work ethic and he's always in the gym and he's always training and his cardio is just so elite because it's just built upon layers upon layers upon layers. And it makes me wonder, we have this idea in our head that a person can only go so hard for five rounds because you're gonna, you can't recover.

• 1:29:18Speaker 02

  I don't know if that's true. I have a feeling that, much like these marathon runners and ultras and all these people that are doing triathlons and Ironman, that you can build up your endurance over time if you keep pushing and keep pushing, as long as your body doesn't break, and this is the real problem with MMA, your body can break. Because, you know, you're wrestling and getting kicked and punched. But if you can build it, I think it's like everything else, it's layers upon layers. If you've never let off the gas and you keep going, your body will adapt, your body will adapt, your body will adapt. And eventually it'll get to a point where you could kind of go like 80, 90% for five rounds.

• 1:30:01Speaker 03

  Which would be fucking terrifying.

• 1:30:02Speaker 02

  Was fucking terrifying. And Marab is kind of almost there.

• 1:30:05Speaker 03

  How old is he?

• 1:30:06Speaker 02

  He's older now.

• 1:30:08Speaker 03

  That's what I was thinking, because the problem-

• 1:30:09Speaker 02

  I think he's 36?

• 1:30:11Speaker 03

  In order to get that baseline of cardio, I think it's gonna take such a long time to accumulate it. And the problem is that you're gonna lose some of the explosiveness, you're gonna accumulate some injuries.

• 1:30:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:30:23Speaker 03

  So if you got rid of the fighting bit and just did backyard ultra or something similar, then you've maybe 42, 45, maybe even someone who's 50 might have not done the damage of the impact.

• 1:30:33Speaker 04

  35.

• 1:30:34Speaker 02

  35, 35 years old. He'll be 36 in January.

• 1:30:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, and you think he's got the biggest gas tank?

• 1:30:39Speaker 02

  The best. It's insane. His gas tank is extraordinary. He wilts people, you see it, it's just like, it's insane. He never stops. He just never stops coming at you. And it's like, he doesn't wane. Like, everybody wanes. Everybody slows down in the third. You know, he's nice, like, ah, ah, ah, bah! It's like a pit bull, man, he's, it's crazy. And it's just hard work. Famously, Daniel Cormier went to visit him on the Sunday after he won the world title and he went to his house and he was out running. He just won the world title and he's out running. He just never gets off the gas. And as, as long as you just-

• 1:31:16Speaker 04

  Did you see this guy?

• 1:31:17Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:31:18Speaker 04

  He broke the record for the mile.

• 1:31:20Speaker 02

  For the mile? Yes, I did.

• 1:31:22Speaker 04

  27-year-old record, I think. He beat it by half a second.

• 1:31:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's another guy using altitude training. He lives at altitude.

• 1:31:29Speaker 04

  It's 16.2 miles an hour average for four minutes, you know.

• 1:31:34Speaker 02

  That's crazy.

• 1:31:35Speaker 04

  That's so fast.

• 1:31:37Speaker 02

  How fast is the record now?

• 1:31:39Speaker 04

  He had those 342 and-

• 1:31:42Speaker 02

  That is so fast. That guy behind him is like, fuck! Fuck!

• 1:31:47Speaker 03

  Good British man.

• 1:31:49Speaker 02

  Look at him go, man. He looks so strong, too. Like, he doesn't look like he's fading at all. That's so impressive.

• 1:31:57Speaker 03

  It's cool that they had the chaser light behind him as well, to know where he needs to.

• 1:32:02Speaker 02

  Bro, he is just separating himself from that dude in second place.

• 1:32:05Speaker 04

  Only get by half a second, too.

• 1:32:07Speaker 02

  Unbelievable.

• 1:32:08Speaker 04

  You just did it.

• 1:32:09Speaker 02

  Crazy.

• 1:32:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, the sickest thing.

• 1:32:11Speaker 04

  But it took so long for the four-minute mile, right? That was the whole-

• 1:32:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:32:15Speaker 04

  -movie?

• 1:32:16Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:32:17Speaker 03

  And then if someone breaks it-

• 1:32:18Speaker 02

  342. What was it previously?

• 1:32:20Speaker 04

  343.1 or .2.

• 1:32:22Speaker 02

  That is crazy.

• 1:32:24Speaker 03

  Unbelievable.

• 1:32:25Speaker 02

  Half a second! That's crazy.

• 1:32:28Speaker 03

  It's such a miserable distance as well. I don't want to do that. I don't want to run a mile-

• 1:32:32Speaker 02

  Flat out. I know. I mean, he was kind of flat out for a whole mile. But, so, the guy that I was working with today, with the hypoxia trainer, he was telling me about this guy, that this guy, his whole thing is like training at altitude and sleeping at altitude. And that it's legalized cheating. If you can live at altitude and you're doing something that requires endurance, like, and we were talking about, I was like, if I was gonna give advice to a fighter, or if I was gonna set up like a fight camp, like, if I was gonna bankroll some big-time trainer to set up a fight camp, 100%, I'd put it at the top of a mountain. 100%. Everyone's gonna sleep there, everyone's gonna live there.

• 1:33:10Speaker 03

  Are the Dagestani guys, are they at altitude?

• 1:33:11Speaker 02

  Oh yeah, man, of course. They're in the mountains, they're mountain people, man.

• 1:33:15Speaker 03

  Little mountain goats at the top of this thing.

• 1:33:18Speaker 02

  Fucking savages.

• 1:33:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, it is strange, I mean, looking at Lance Armstrong and what he was doing, he was basically reverse-engineering that, but just through pharmacology and blood doping and, okay, well, we can work around that if you're at altitude.

• 1:33:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, he was, he was doing that, but he was also, he was doing a lot of altitude work, too. But he was also doing what everybody else was doing. This idea that Lance Armstrong was this big cheater. If you took away everyone in the podiums that had been, that hadn't been busted, like, if you took away anyone that got caught with any substances, I think you would get down to 18th place. I think that's what they said. It was a dirty sport. Completely dirty sport. So he was the best at the dirty sport. So, sorry.

• 1:34:03Speaker 03

  I played within the rules. They want the rules that were set down by the federation, but they were the rules that everybody else was playing by.

• 1:34:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, they got him and he was, you know, he was guilty and he did lie about whether or not he did that. They all lied. They were all, they were all doping. They were all doing a bunch of shit.

• 1:34:19Speaker 03

  You know what I think about? I think about the fact that lots of pursuits that people go into aren't tested federations. Business. Business isn't a tested federation. If you want to take armadale and work 19 hours a day, you can do that.

• 1:34:31Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:34:32Speaker 03

  No one's gonna come and stop you. No one's gonna say, hey, this share price, that's unfair that you got that share price because you, you were enhanced, you were using Adderall, or you were using too much caffeine or paraxanthine, or you were on the new tonic, whatever.

• 1:34:42Speaker 02

  That's a good point.

• 1:34:43Speaker 03

  No, that's not a tested federation.

• 1:34:44Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:34:45Speaker 03

  But it's as important, maybe even more important, to a lot of people. It's more people participating in business than participating in professional sports.

• 1:34:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, especially things like Adderall. They're like, you have energy all day, you can work 16, 17 hours a day.

• 1:34:58Speaker 03

  Have you ever used it? I've never tried it.

• 1:35:00Speaker 02

  No, scared of it. Scared!

• 1:35:02Speaker 03

  That being said, Victoria-

• 1:35:04Speaker 02

  Heard it's awesome, though.

• 1:35:05Speaker 03

  I'm sure it's fun. Jamie, get us some Adderall, let's fuck it.

• 1:35:07Speaker 02

  Did you, when you talked to Hunter Biden, did you, did you guys talk about crack?

• 1:35:11Speaker 03

  All the time.

• 1:35:12Speaker 02

  So, I told you that I was gonna do that and then we didn't do that and you did it.

• 1:35:17Speaker 03

  I didn't take the idea, I promise.

• 1:35:19Speaker 02

  I told it to you, though. You already had it booked?

• 1:35:21Speaker 03

  We had it booked already.

• 1:35:22Speaker 02

  But you didn't tell me you had it booked when I told you that we were gonna do it.

• 1:35:25Speaker 03

  Should I have told you?

• 1:35:26Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:35:27Speaker 03

  Doesn't matter.

• 1:35:28Speaker 02

  It doesn't matter. Some of the guys got upset, like, he took our idea. We were going to do a Protect Our Parks with Hunter Biden, but then Ari, because we thought Ari couldn't make it, we wanted to do another Protect Our Parks. And Ari was in London and Ari was like-

• 1:35:41Speaker 03

  He's moved to London.

• 1:35:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, and he was like, I'll fly back for that. And we were like, all right, fuck Hunter Biden. And so we didn't.

• 1:35:48Speaker 03

  It's just as well I got him. Ari's had no fun. Yeah, he talked a lot about crack. Dude, I gotta say, he's so likeable. It's terrifying how likeable he is.

• 1:35:56Speaker 02

  Well, you know, I mean, he grew up with a politician and, you know, he's a smart guy.

• 1:36:01Speaker 03

  Maybe, maybe, I mean, I was trying to find the, was the manipulative game that's being played here or whatever.

• 1:36:10Speaker 02

  It's interesting that he took a long time out of the public eye, many, many years, and then he sort of reemerged. And some people are very upset, some people are very upset that like these conservatives are platforming him, like, you know, they're criticizing that, but-

• 1:36:26Speaker 02

  But you don't want to hear about what his story is like? I mean, this guy's, obviously, he lived a wild life.

• 1:36:31Speaker 03

  We got to ask him, I wanted to ask him the question, what was it like to be the most Googled drug addict in history, probably?

• 1:36:36Speaker 02

  Ah.

• 1:36:37Speaker 03

  And it's, it's fucking wild. How, what does it feel like to have that much pressure on you? Regardless, forget who his dad is, forget that it's U.S. politics, forget that it's the future of the country, da, da, da, da, da. Like, there is a person in there, and there is a person under a level of scrutiny that has maybe never been seen before.

• 1:36:54Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:36:55Speaker 03

  Like, you wake up one day, and he told us the story of what it was like to just have the laptop. That he just, it just, this story bursts, and it is everything. It's the future of the country, it's the future of your dad's legacy, it's your life, it's your family's life, it's, he's two years into sobriety at the time, I think, the temptation to come back.

• 1:37:12Speaker 02

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• 1:38:39Speaker 02

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• 1:39:21Speaker 02

  Or is it really they hacked into his cloud, and then they put it on a laptop? Because I've heard him say that, that there's way too much data for it to have ever been on a laptop.

• 1:39:34Speaker 03

  It's 20 years, you know, it was two decades, it was everything, every text message, every photo, every, every, every, every.

• 1:39:39Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:39:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:39:41Speaker 02

  So he.

• 1:39:42Speaker 03

  You get in through the laptop.

• 1:39:43Speaker 02

  What is his, but is it actually in the laptop, or did someone put it in the laptop? I think, like, I don't want to say anything incorrect here, so let's just make sure that I'm correct, or let's just find out what the truth is. Is his position that they download, they hacked into his cloud, and that's how they got all those videos of him, like, smoking crack and going 170 miles an hour and getting foot jobs and all that stuff? Like, that, that all was in the cloud, that wasn't on a laptop that he just handed to a repair store? That that's a bullshit narrative to cover for the fact that they hacked into his cloud and got all of his photos and videos?

• 1:40:21Speaker 03

  He didn't give us the specifics on that one. What I do think would have happened is maybe you get into the cloud through the laptop, if you've got access to that, if you open up the laptop because you need to have the logins.

• 1:40:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, perhaps.

• 1:40:31Speaker 03

  Then you can just get into someone's iCloud through that.

• 1:40:33Speaker 02

  But you still have to, you have to log in. Once you get the laptop, you have to have the passwords.

• 1:40:38Speaker 03

  It's crazy, dude, I mean.

• 1:40:41Speaker 02

  I would assume he's got some passwords.

• 1:40:43Speaker 03

  Mine did not definitively.

• 1:40:44Speaker 04

  This doesn't have a real answer to that.

• 1:40:46Speaker 02

  He did not definitively claim the Delaware laptop was hacked or stolen in a 2021 CBS interview. This is a long time ago. He said he did not know whether or not he, uh, his and floated, it was his, and floated several possibilities, including that a laptop was stolen from me, that he was hacked, or that Russian intelligence was involved. Okay, he's doing the Russia, Russia, Russia shit back then.

• 1:41:07Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:41:08Speaker 02

  That was 2021.

• 1:41:09Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:41:10Speaker 02

  You could get away with that.

• 1:41:11Speaker 03

  You could get away with anything.

• 1:41:12Speaker 02

  This is also while Joe Biden was the President of the United States, right? So there could be a laptop out there that was stolen from me? Okay, this, this is not a good timeline.

• 1:41:20Speaker 03

  You've got new shit.

• 1:41:22Speaker 02

  The, yeah, the, the timeline in the recent, more recent interviews, I believe his position was that the amount of data wouldn't even have fit on a laptop, and then it's bullshit, and they're calling it the laptop, and a lot of it is just his personal information that he had somewhere that was hacked.

• 1:41:38Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:41:39Speaker 02

  So then the narrative is not that this guy was so cracked out that he had a laptop filled with him getting his dick sucked.

• 1:41:46Speaker 04

  He'd been sober for two years at the time. I had to push it for more clarification.

• 1:41:48Speaker 02

  Okay, in an August 2026 interview with Tucker Carlson, Biden reportedly said, hey, reportedly, you're perplexity, come on. You're supposed to tell, didn't you listen?

• 1:41:59Speaker 03

  Hedging everything.

• 1:42:00Speaker 02

  Didn't you watch perplexity? Uh, in an August 2026 interview, Biden reportedly said, they hacked my cloud. He denied the full collection described as his laptop could all have originated from one device, saying it was way too large. He suggested an unknown actor, potentially an intelligence service or another person, could have taken digital material, material, rather, and combined it with the purported laptop narrative. So, that's possible. In a July 2026 Substack launch, he wrote that the providence was never established, that no court forensics examiner had certified a chain of custody sufficient to make evidence rather than theater. He did acknowledge that material associated with reflected his addiction struggles.

• 1:42:43Speaker 02

  See, there could be a lot of things going on. One could be that he was cracked out and he left the laptop, and he doesn't remember being cracked out and leaving the laptop. But the idea that there's too much data that it wouldn't have fit on a laptop, the problem with that is, there's two terabyte hard drives on laptops now, like.

• 1:43:03Speaker 03

  That's a lot of data.

• 1:43:04Speaker 02

  What was a, uh, well, this is 2020, right?

• 1:43:08Speaker 04

  Here's the one thing, too, I find very interesting about it.

• 1:43:10Speaker 02

  What?

• 1:43:11Speaker 04

  It's on the screen. The guy who, uh, ran the shop that the laptop was supposedly dropped off at.

• 1:43:18Speaker 03

  Because he's legally blind.

• 1:43:20Speaker 04

  Could not confirm who the customer was because he's legally blind.

• 1:43:23Speaker 02

  Oh, how convenient. How convenient. He probably never went to that place, it's probably a total fake story, and they, they made up a fake story, maybe they even stole a laptop of his.

• 1:43:38Speaker 03

  Well, that, the thing that I was most fascinated by was he was two years sober when that happened, now seven.

• 1:43:44Speaker 02

  Allegedly.

• 1:43:45Speaker 03

  Allegedly, although he is tested, I think, supposedly.

• 1:43:47Speaker 02

  By who?

• 1:43:48Speaker 03

  Uh, I don't know.

• 1:43:49Speaker 02

  His dad?

• 1:43:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, maybe.

• 1:43:51Speaker 02

  Oh, you look great, son. Clean it up.

• 1:43:53Speaker 03

  He told me that he packs his bags with witness, when he packs his carry-ons and stuff. There's a witness there to it.

• 1:44:00Speaker 02

  Whoa, so he doesn't get fucking, oh, wow.

• 1:44:02Speaker 03

  In case he, someone snuck something into his bag, who's gonna believe him? It's like, who's gonna believe?

• 1:44:07Speaker 02

  That's crazy.

• 1:44:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:44:09Speaker 02

  Imagine living like that.

• 1:44:10Speaker 03

  Dude, the amount of scrutiny, that was what I was most fascinated by. I was thinking, what is it like to have the entire world bearing down on you? Not only the world, the, the country, the future of politics, your dad, your dad's legacy, are you gonna get a pardon? Who even fucking know, who cares? Probably not, like, oh, my god.

• 1:44:25Speaker 02

  And then there's the reality.

• 1:44:27Speaker 03

  Don't go back to drugs, don't use your drugs again, this is how you would have fixed it, this is how you would have done it in the past. Two years sober?

• 1:44:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, oh, my god, two years sober is so gentle, too, so dangerous.

• 1:44:37Speaker 03

  You're not even out of the woods.

• 1:44:38Speaker 02

  And when you think about that whole story, how that blew up right before the election, it could have really been an intelligence plot to try to sink Joe Biden. And they countered it, and the way they countered it was by blocking the story from Twitter, a factual story from the New York Post.

• 1:44:58Speaker 04

  This is from CBS News.

• 1:45:00Speaker 02

  Giuliani apparently held the information for months and released it less than three weeks before the election. Giuliani has long been involved in efforts by the president and his allies to highlight Hunter Biden's work overseas to damage Joe Biden and boost Mr. Trump's reelection campaign. And in 2019, and in 2019, met with a Ukrainian lawmaker who had been deemed an active Russian agent by the U.S. government.

• 1:45:26Speaker 03

  What, is it the October surprise? That's what they call it?

• 1:45:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:45:30Speaker 03

  Well, each year, there's been something that the losing side has pointed to as the justification for why it happened.

• 1:45:35Speaker 02

  Uh-huh.

• 1:45:36Speaker 03

  Russiagate, Biden laptop suppression, and then in the most recent one, it was podcasts.

• 1:45:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:45:42Speaker 03

  Like, that was, well, this is what, had it not have been for the sway that occurred due to this run that was done on podcasts, that, that's what moved the election each time.

• 1:45:52Speaker 02

  Well, the real problem with that narrative was, I don't know anybody who wasn't willing to talk to Kamala Harris. I was willing to.

• 1:46:00Speaker 03

  Everyone reached out to her.

• 1:46:00Speaker 02

  I tried to talk to her a bunch of times. And they tried to pretend that I I made it difficult. It's a fucking complete horseshit lie. They also lied and they said they came down here and s- s- checked out the studio and did a run of the place. They did not. They did not do that. They did not. Um, Trump's people did, and I've said that, like, if you want to say that they knew that someone did it, but I don't know how much they're communicating with each other. Trump's Secret Service people came down and they scanned the whole place. They went through the whole place before he came in. But she's alleging that her people did a run of the studio. They did not. Her, no representatives from her organization were ever here.

• 1:46:40Speaker 03

  And that it would be insufficiently secure or something? Is that what?

• 1:46:43Speaker 02

  No, I mean, they they said that we were making it difficult. I was making it as easy as possible. And the one day that she offered to do it, I was already booked with him. And I even said I would do it.

• 1:46:54Speaker 03

  No fucking way.

• 1:46:54Speaker 02

  Uh huh. And I said I would do it, but it would have to be, she had a a gig in Houston. She was doing like a speech in Houston. I think that was one of the ones where like Beyonce came out and everybody thought she was gonna sing and she didn't. Uh, so.

• 1:47:06Speaker 03

  Like, everyone got mad.

• 1:47:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, everyone got mad. So she was somewhere else in Texas. And I said, listen, if she, when she's done with that, I'll do, I'll do a podcast at midnight. Come on in. I'll go whenever you wanna do it. I'll do it the next day, I'll do it that night.

• 1:47:18Speaker 03

  That would have been one of the wildest 24 hours of your life.

• 1:47:21Speaker 02

  I was down to do that.

• 1:47:22Speaker 03

  To have done.

• 1:47:22Speaker 02

  And that was gonna release them both at the exact same time.

• 1:47:24Speaker 03

  Unreal.

• 1:47:25Speaker 02

  That was the idea. But she wasn't willing to do it.

• 1:47:27Speaker 03

  Jamie.

• 1:47:27Speaker 02

  They even gave me a bunch of things. This is also the that they didn't tell the truth about. There was a bunch of things that they said she didn't wanna talk about. And I said, fine. She didn't wanna talk about her record for prosecuting marijuana possession in in California and then for using those people that were supposed to get released past the date that they were released to fight wildfires. She didn't wanna talk about that. Fine. And then there was one other one. I forget what the other one was about that they didn't wanna talk about. And then they came back and said they did wanna talk about marijuana legalization. Oh, immigration. They were not so keen on talking about immigration. Maybe it wasn't immigration. Was it immigration, Jamie? Do you remember? I don't remember what the other one was. But I was like, fine, I'll ask her about cooking. I don't give a fuck.

• 1:48:11Speaker 02

  Like, let's talk. Like, I just wanna sit down across and find out who you are. We'll figure it out. We'll figure it out. I'll ask you if you believe in Jesus. We'll figure it out. Do you believe in UFOs? Like, what do you think? Well, you could release the files? Like, I'll find out who you are. Let's go. You know, maybe I like you. Maybe no one's had a chance to see you for this way. Maybe you can laugh and joke around and be like a real person instead of like being a person with sound bites because you can relax. Because you know there's no time constraint. Who fucking knows? But we didn't get to find out. So to say that like you're blaming podcasts on her not getting elected. How about the fact that you spent 1.4 billion fucking dollars and you put someone in without a primary and you b- you blew all this money and it d- and you still lost?

• 1:48:56Speaker 02

  Like, you guys fucked it up. You fucked it up. You had all this momentum. When she had that one speech, it's like, say it to my face. They were like, yeah. Like, they had it. If she never did another fucking speech and never did a podcast, never did anything and only did pre-prepared like monologues like that.

• 1:49:15Speaker 03

  Game over.

• 1:49:16Speaker 02

  Game over. Game over. Game over. She's younger, she's got more energy, she's like a new, fresh thing. Let's go.

• 1:49:26Speaker 03

  How much do you think the, uh, that run of podcasts for Trump did move the needle? Have you got any idea?

• 1:49:31Speaker 02

  It did a lot. I think it did. I think it, the one, the one with Theo Von, I think, moved the needle first. And then the one with me, I think you got to see him fuck around a little and relax and and talk about things. And you got to see a human being instead of like a a cartoon.

• 1:49:51Speaker 03

  But you only got to see one side of the election do that. You didn't get to see.

• 1:49:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, you could, that could have happened with her too. Like, I'm not a hard interview man. I'm not, I I don't wanna get in arguments with people. I'd like to get in discussions with people. I'm not into being insulting. I'm not into being shitty. I'm not, I'm not into doing that. I'm just, I just wanted to talk. Like, if you wanna run the president, you you wanna be the commander in chief of the greatest army the world's ever known, like, let's just have a conversation. I don't think that's that hard to do. And if you can't do that, like, well, what are you hiding? Who are you? I think it was a lot of her people that didn't want her to do it. First of all, there's a lot of people that are like super woke and did just didn't want her to, and in any way to be associated with me. And then there was a lot of people that were really worried that she was gonna say something

• 1:50:36Speaker 02

  that fucked it up or that we were gonna get into something that she can't defend.

• 1:50:40Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 1:50:41Speaker 02

  You know? Because there was a lot of things that that really did like make people go, what? Like, when she said she wouldn't have done anything different than Joe Biden when she was on The View. I don't think I did anything different. Like, and everybody's like, oh, great. This is nuts. We were trying to vote for you. Fucking lie to me. There was definitely that. And then there was, there's some, you know, some crazy stuff she said too. When she was Vice President, I was saying like, how dare we say Merry Christmas? Like, you you get those clips and you go, wait, what? Who are you? Who are you? Do you believe that? Do you really believe how dare we say Merry Christmas? Or is this like a crazy thing that you went through that day?

• 1:51:20Speaker 03

  Well, it's wild to think I'm worried about being too bombastic when the person that I'm going up against is Donald Trump.

• 1:51:25Speaker 02

  [laughing]

• 1:51:28Speaker 03

  You know what I mean?

• 1:51:29Speaker 02

  Well, some people, they they fuck up a few things and then they're terrified they're gonna fuck up. So every time they do an interview, they're like, I don't wanna fuck this up, I don't wanna fuck this up. And that's when the staff gets involved. Like, they wanted one staff in the room. I'm so like, fuck, no. No, you can't have staff in the room. Fuck out of here. Fuck out of here. They also wanna know if it's edited. Like, we edit things like this? No. You gotta, people have to find out who the fuck you really are.

• 1:51:56Speaker 03

  But that feels scary because there's no get out of jail free time.

• 1:51:59Speaker 02

  It's supposed to be scary. You wanna be the president.

• 1:52:01Speaker 03

  [laughing]

• 1:52:02Speaker 02

  You wanna be the president. It's the scariest thing of all time.

• 1:52:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:52:05Speaker 02

  You gotta, you gotta deal with potential nuclear war, okay? I think you can sit down for a conversation.

• 1:52:11Speaker 03

  Opposite you.

• 1:52:11Speaker 02

  It's not even me, even if it's on me. Sit down with a bunch of other people. But sit down with people that are gonna ask you real questions, really talk to you. You know? Like, I don't know what happened on the Call Her Daddy podcast, but I think it was very short and I don't think they got into anything deep. Like, you gotta ask, like, the immigration thing was nuts. You have to ask, like, what are you doing? Like, why do you guys have an open border? Why are you just letting all these unvetted people from third world, crime-infested, poor countries? Desperate people. Desperate that are want, that want to walk to America. Do you know how crazy that is? And we're just letting them all in without knowing how many of them are just trying to make a better life and how many of them are drug cartel and how many of them are terrorists and how many?

• 1:52:56Speaker 02

  The fuck are you doing? What are you doing?

• 1:52:59Speaker 03

  What's happened with the status of immigration now? I know that.

• 1:53:01Speaker 02

  Ah, they put the brakes on it. They stopped like an enormous number of people crossing the border. Like, an enormous number. I think it's down like, what is it down? Like, how many, what is the percentage of illegal border crossings down since Trump has been in office? They could have done it the entire time, man. They wanted that border open. They wanted those people coming in, they wanted to flood the census, they wanted to flood those swing states. They wanted to get people that are here and give them citizenship. They wanted to get them on Medicaid, they wanna get them on healthcare, they wanna give them free cell phones. They wanted to make those people voters. And they wanted to try to just make it like it's California, like the whole country's California.

• 1:53:45Speaker 02

  Like, you can never leave, you can never escape. It's one party runs it forever and they run it terribly. And it gets more and more terrible and they need more and more money to make it more and more terrible.

• 1:53:55Speaker 03

  That's not a great case. Fuck me. Well, I just.

• 1:54:00Speaker 02

  Well, it's not the case now, but this is not great either. Okay. January 2025, Border Patrol recorded 29,000. In the first full month of the administration, February, that fell to 8,000, about a 71% month-to-month decline. So, all told, what's the percentage of decline? What's the percentage of decline based on 2026 versus 2023? Let's find that out.

• 1:54:33Speaker 03

  2026 isn't.

• 1:54:35Speaker 02

  20, oh, 2025 versus 2023.

• 1:54:41Speaker 02

  Data. Okay, let's see what they say.

• 1:54:45Speaker 02

  What percentage is it down?

• 1:54:49Speaker 03

  No.

• 1:54:50Speaker 02

  Eighty-eight percent.

• 1:54:52Speaker 03

  One point eight million.

• 1:54:54Speaker 02

  Eighty-eight percent. You know how crazy that is? That's crazy. So they were letting millions of people in and we didn't know who they are. And you know, the idea is like, if you want to be a kind, compassionate person and immigrants deserve what you have and okay. Um, but we have to know they're not murderers, folks. Okay. We, we can't just, have you ever been to like the worst places of the third world? Probably not. If you did, you wouldn't want those people just like roaming around your neighborhood when you have to leave your garage and go to work. You wouldn't want that because they're, they're just like, oh, the guy's not here. I'll break into his house.

• 1:55:33Speaker 03

  Well, how much of this is a luxury belief that the people that are espousing the things that they're supporting aren't the ones that are going to be impacted by it? It's the same as, it's the same as, I told you this last time I was on, there was a house near where I live in Austin that had a defund the police sign in the front yard and a private security sticker on the front window.

• 1:55:52Speaker 02

  Ah, that's cute. People are cute. Well, there's a lot of that. It's a lot of white people. White people are a real problem.

• 1:56:01Speaker 03

  Well, that's this.

• 1:56:04Speaker 02

  Privileged white people.

• 1:56:05Speaker 04

  It started dropping in 2024 because of a Biden phylum change or something.

• 1:56:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, sure it did. Listen, they probably tried to put the brakes on it a little bit when they were losing the election. You know, that when they were getting the polls in, they were like, oh my God, this is getting tight. Yeah, for sure. Like this, otherwise they would have done it in 2023. They're not, they're, they're doing it because of a political reason. They probably would have opened it right back up if Kamala won like wee. You know, no one's illegal on stolen land. Come on in, you know?

• 1:56:38Speaker 03

  Meanwhile, uh, victorious secret is up 300% year on year, the share price because of Ozempic. I found this out yesterday.

• 1:56:46Speaker 02

  What?

• 1:56:47Speaker 03

  300% increase.

• 1:56:48Speaker 02

  Because of Ozempic?

• 1:56:49Speaker 03

  So what the proposed reason for this is that millions of women have lost so much weight that their bras have stopped fitting. And because they're smaller, they're now going and getting more seductive underwear. 300% increase year on year.

• 1:57:03Speaker 02

  Hot little stick figures.

• 1:57:05Speaker 03

  That's what's happening to them. Ozempic is a fucking hell of a drug. Here's another thing that I found out that women are getting bridal dresses fitted, but they're having to predict whether weight is going to come into land. So some women are losing up to 50 pounds. They're losing so much weight between ordering the dress and the wedding that these bridal, bridal stores are having to get them to sign waivers in case they don't make weight like a fighter. Like if you don't make weight for your bridal dress, you go, well, we can't give you another one. You've said that you're going to lose 50 pounds using GLP's over the next nine months or 12 months or 18 months or whatever. And because they're scared that they're going to end up getting these refunds, they're having to sign waivers. I think the, the, uh, future implications of Ozempic on economy, consumption.

• 1:57:49Speaker 03

  Like, think about what most of consumerism is. It's not stuff that people need. It's like things that people want. It's like a craving. It's impulsivity. It's repeated purchase.

• 1:58:00Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:58:01Speaker 03

  And that's exactly what GLP's act on. They're not just suppressing appetite. They're suppressing craving in a lot of different ways. And it's like, what, what happens to a capitalist system when you suppress pharmacologically suppress craving? I want this thing. Well, maybe you don't, not in quite the same way, because it seems to work on weed. It seems to work on video games. It seems to work on a ton of different behaviors. People don't like wine as much. Okay. So it's not just calories. It's more than that. It's consumerism as well. I think what happens when you intervene pharmacologically in people's, uh, desire to crave is just, uh, that is the other, the other side. So AI on one side and fucking GLP's on the other.

• 1:58:42Speaker 02

  Well, they say that some people have different reactions to GLP ones, right? And some people have a lack of desire for relationships,

• 1:58:51Speaker 02

  which is really creepy. Like you have a, like, what is it about? Is it taking away pleasure? Is it taking away excitement? Like, what is it taking away? Like what? What stimulation that you're getting by overeating? What is it dulling in the process that also stops drug addictions? Like it's helping people that have addictions and it's also helping people that are, you know, that have like impulsive behavior, apparently. I think that's true. But the weird one is the side effects of like relationships. Like you don't.

• 1:59:27Speaker 03

  Maybe it's craving again. Maybe it's the same thing. I, I looked at the, the study on, uh, that came out on X and people were talking about it. There was some criticism around whether or not that particular pathway in the brain works the way that it would. But if, if you're suppressing craving overall, that wouldn't surprise me.

• 1:59:42Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:59:42Speaker 03

  If you're making people just want less.

• 1:59:46Speaker 02

  Right. I don't want that at all. Bill Maher was arguing with, uh, Scott Galloway on Real Time about that. Galloway was like big on GLP ones and there's benefits. People, there's, you know, I think also the thing is dosage. This is an issue and this is an issue that's been brought up by, uh, compound pharmacies that there's certain people that don't need a big ass dose that you're going to get like depending upon your body weight, depending upon your size, you know, like a 500 pound man probably needs a different dose than a 135 pound, five foot tall woman.

• 2:00:22Speaker 03

  Is that not being suggested?

• 2:00:23Speaker 02

  I don't think so.

• 2:00:25Speaker 03

  It's not being advised.

• 2:00:26Speaker 02

  I, I, I think, I think people are starting to do it through their various health, healthcare providers and various doctors have experience with these things that are giving people like smaller doses and less. Then there's the retuitide stuff. Am I saying that right?

• 2:00:41Speaker 03

  Retitruide.

• 2:00:42Speaker 02

  Retitruide, retitruide. That one is a weird one because that one allows you to keep muscle mass and that's the big fear that people have. Is that you're starving yourself, but you're also losing, losing bone mass and muscle mass.

• 2:00:55Speaker 03

  That's because people who don't have good fitness habits are reducing an already suboptimal diet. They're not eating well and now they're eating less of not well. They're still not training, which means what happens because I think about 90% of people that go on GLP's and then come off them gain the weight back. So it's, you.

• 2:01:16Speaker 02

  You don't change your behavior.

• 2:01:18Speaker 03

  You don't change your behavior, but you lose muscle on the way down and gain fat on the way back up.

• 2:01:23Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:01:23Speaker 03

  So if you end up back at the same weight that you were previously, your compositions was. And that's, that's really concerning because you're basically locked in to use them for the rest of time. If, if that's the case, if you can't use something else to fix it.

• 2:01:34Speaker 02

  I know that they were using different things, like they were using IGF-1 along with GLP-1s to mitigate the bone density and muscle tissue loss. But the reality of having less calories coming in than coming out is your body's going to eat itself. And that's what's happening.

• 2:01:54Speaker 03

  Which is why you need to do resistance training.

• 2:01:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, you have to. You have to lift heavy weights. Not heavy, but you have to lift something. So you, you develop bone density. And this is a giant problem with older people that have never lifted anything is that their body composition is just, they might look normal, but they're made out of dough. You know, you could just punch right through them and if they fall down, they're going to get hurt, man.

• 2:02:16Speaker 03

  They're snapped.

• 2:02:17Speaker 02

  When people get older, like one of the main ways that people die is falling.

• 2:02:22Speaker 03

  What happens? They hit their head?

• 2:02:24Speaker 02

  They hit their heads. They, they slip in the shower. They slip in the bathtub. They hit their heads. They break a hip. When you break a hip, man, the odds of you living more than 10 years reduce drastically. A lot of it is also because at the time that you're breaking a hip, you're probably.

• 2:02:39Speaker 03

  Old already.

• 2:02:39Speaker 02

  You're old already, but there's like real data that show that once people have fallen and broken a hip, like that's a catastrophic injury that you got to think of all the resources that your body has to use and employ in order to heal that. And then there's the compromising movement that you're going to have for a long time.

• 2:02:56Speaker 03

  Be able to walk. You're going to need assistance.

• 2:02:58Speaker 02

  You're not going to have the same vitality. You're going to be recovering, going to be exhausted.

• 2:03:03Speaker 02

  People with Alzheimer's disease are substantially higher risk of falling. Wow. Falls can be fatal, especially if they can cause a hip fracture, head injury or complications from hospitalizations or immobility. Research indicated that 60 to 80% of older adults with Alzheimer's experience a fall more than twice the rate in cognitively normal peers.

• 2:03:24Speaker 03

  There was a late, there's a news story that came out recently, Jamie, about a woman who survived for eight days in a bathtub after she fell. Sure.

• 2:03:33Speaker 02

  Oh my God.

• 2:03:34Speaker 03

  Insane. So had, had had a tumble and wasn't found. I don't know what the fuck she was doing in order to be able to stay alive. I guess if you're in a bathtub, you've got some water.

• 2:03:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, just peeing in the tub and drinking the water.

• 2:03:46Speaker 03

  Hoping for the best.

• 2:03:47Speaker 04

  Eighty-two years old. Nine days, actually it says.

• 2:03:49Speaker 02

  Oh my God.

• 2:03:52Speaker 04

  She drank water. She managed to splash up onto her face by turning the faucet on with her foot.

• 2:03:56Speaker 02

  Oh my God. Oh my God.

• 2:04:00Speaker 03

  Nine days in a fucking bathtub.

• 2:04:03Speaker 02

  Crazy. How'd she not die of hypothermia?

• 2:04:06Speaker 03

  I guess you could heat yourself up. Just go to run the water.

• 2:04:08Speaker 02

  I guess, I mean, is, is she that good at turning the knobs with her feet? She could scald herself to death? What the fuck, man?

• 2:04:16Speaker 04

  Mountain home, rural mountain, North Carolina.

• 2:04:18Speaker 02

  Oh my God, that poor lady. Let's get her on the podcast.

• 2:04:22Speaker 03

  And she survived?

• 2:04:23Speaker 02

  Get her on the podcast, Jamie, before Chris does.

• 2:04:31Speaker 02

  Poor lady. We'd probably have to go to her.

• 2:04:32Speaker 03

  Fuck.

• 2:04:33Speaker 02

  Probably have to go to the Appalachians.

• 2:04:34Speaker 03

  That is insane.

• 2:04:36Speaker 02

  Fuck, man. There's people that get through some shit.

• 2:04:40Speaker 03

  I was looking at the, uh, the studies of how long people have stayed awake for.

• 2:04:46Speaker 03

  That gets really fucking gnarly because people go into psychosis. That's, that, that Lindsay Clancy case thing that's going crazy at the moment. A lot of that is because of supposedly, uh, sleep deprivation. On a lot of antipsychotics, et cetera, et cetera. But you don't need to keep people awake for that long to turn them insane. If you're awake for a couple of days, I think all fucking hell breaks loose, which is why those backyard ultras just seem so deranged. Do you think, how are you even able to apply effort to what it is? How are you able to make decisions about whether you need food or sleep or rest or to go harder or to give up?

• 2:05:17Speaker 02

  They all have hallucinations. They all see things that aren't there. Like Courtney DeWalter, she won the, uh, what'd she win? The Bigfoot? Is that what she won? When she came on? She beat the second place dude by 10 hours or something crazy.

• 2:05:35Speaker 02

  Imagine you come in second place and you're second place by 10 hours?

• 2:05:39Speaker 03

  Yes, nearly half a day.

• 2:05:41Speaker 02

  The race is three days long, three days of hell.

• 2:05:45Speaker 03

  Well, the crazy thing about endurance is that as you get longer and longer, the difference between the sexes starts to even out. And I think in water, it evens out even quicker because women are more buoyant. Over distances, women are better swimmers.

• 2:05:56Speaker 02

  Makes sense. I sink like a rock.

• 2:05:59Speaker 03

  Well, you don't have the build for swimming.

• 2:06:01Speaker 02

  I'm terrible at it.

• 2:06:02Speaker 03

  No, you don't have the build. I recently learned about, um, just come to my mind Rory McDonald's walkout music. This story where he changed his number.

• 2:06:14Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:06:15Speaker 03

  And hadn't updated the UFC. That's such a great story. I only found this out.

• 2:06:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:06:21Speaker 03

  Were you there at any of those events when he was walking? I think he came out to like, uh, uh, MC Hammer.

• 2:06:29Speaker 03

  And people asked him, apparently he got rumbled because he wanted Nickelback. And they asked him after, they were like, sorry, we couldn't get you Nickelback. He said, I didn't ask for fucking Nickelback. Then we worked it out and it was just some guy that was a fan that was deciding to submit songs.

• 2:06:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:06:42Speaker 03

  On Rory McDonald's behalf.

• 2:06:44Speaker 02

  The guy got Rory's old number and Rory never bothered telling the UFC. And this guy knew who Rory was and he was just so jazzed up that he could pick Rory's walkout music. And the guy had a good sense of humor, so he picked some whack songs.

• 2:06:57Speaker 03

  DMC, MC Hammer, DMX, sorry, MC Hammer.

• 2:07:00Speaker 02

  Well, DMX is great. MC Hammer's great. I mean, some people love those songs.

• 2:07:04Speaker 03

  I'm a fan. I think Nickelback's got legs as well.

• 2:07:07Speaker 02

  Bro, Nickelback's has some good songs. It's just they're formulaic and people don't like formulaic songs. There's some, something about them that people think is too much of a formulaic song. But like, how come you like the Cypress Hill Rockstar song, but you don't like the Rockstar song? It's like the same song. The Nickelback song and Cypress Hill are the same song.

• 2:07:29Speaker 03

  Does it?

• 2:07:30Speaker 02

  It's the same song.

• 2:07:31Speaker 03

  Jimmy's like.

• 2:07:32Speaker 02

  It's the same song. It's the same song. It's the same premise. It's about being a rock star. All the crazy shit that you're gonna do. If you, I wanna be a rock star and I want all this cool shit. Look, the Cypress Hill's a better song. I'm a big Cypress Hill fan. I, if you, if I'm getting to choose.

• 2:07:48Speaker 04

  It also starts off with Chino talking. Like, there's not many songs that have Chino Moreno from the Deftones.

• 2:07:53Speaker 02

  That's true.

• 2:07:54Speaker 04

  Speaking.

• 2:07:54Speaker 02

  That's true. He's laying out what you need to do to be a rock star. That there's a lot. But like, okay, we can't play this for everybody else, but just for you and me.

• 2:08:04Speaker 04

  Which one?

• 2:08:04Speaker 02

  We're gonna, we'll start off with Nickelback. Start off with Nickelback. Nickelback Rockstar.

• 2:08:11Speaker 03

  So fucking happy about this. There's a conspiracy theory that Nickelback got taken down to demoralize America after 9/11.

• 2:08:18Speaker 02

  That's hilarious. I think they're Canadian.

• 2:08:21Speaker 03

  Well, but it was American, American like, uh, thrust forward into the world, that kind of like freedom rock.

• 2:08:27Speaker 02

  Well, they were always a punchline.

• 2:08:29Speaker 03

  Allow me to get you down the rabbit hole, Joe.

• 2:08:31Speaker 04

  The Limp Bizkit Woodstock one is a fun one. That, oh, hold on, it's trying to load.

• 2:08:37Speaker 02

  So we'll listen to the Nickelback Rockstar song first. Here we go. Go to Cypress Hill.

• 2:08:44Speaker 02

  It's the same song. It's the same song. No, I love Cypress Hill. Bro, B-roll's my boy. I love that dude. They're the shit. I fucking love these guys. Say.

• 2:08:58Speaker 03

  I forgot how hard that song was.

• 2:08:59Speaker 02

  It's, it's a way better song. It's a way better song. You know, you're one of the dopest covers ever. Rage Against the Machine covered Pistol Grip Pump. Have you ever heard that? Okay, while we're doing this, since nobody can listen to this either. Just throw up this. This is one of my favorite Cypress Hill covers. Where Rage Against the Machine covered Cypress Hill. It's fucking fantastic. It's fucking fantastic. It's better than the original. That goes hard.

• 2:09:26Speaker 03

  I'd never heard that.

• 2:09:27Speaker 02

  That goes hard.

• 2:09:28Speaker 03

  That's so fucking.

• 2:09:29Speaker 02

  That's one of the dopest covers ever.

• 2:09:30Speaker 03

  There is a, what do we, Jamie's gonna compete with you here.

• 2:09:34Speaker 02

  It's like they had an assignment. It's like Cypress Hill and Nickelback had an assignment. I want you to write a song about how dope it is to be a rock star. You wanna be a rock star? You want all this cool shit, right? But Cypress Hill took it from the position of like, all, all you're gonna suffer, all you're gonna lose. You want this. You know how hard it is. And Nickelback's like, hey, hey, I wanna be a rock star.

• 2:09:57Speaker 03

  It's fluffy.

• 2:09:58Speaker 02

  It's a little fluffy.

• 2:09:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:09:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, but it's kind of like, uh, an assignment.

• 2:10:02Speaker 03

  It is interesting trying to warn people off of something that everybody thinks they want. There's this, uh, study that was done on when people enter airplanes and they walk through business class. Economy walks through business class, there's an eight times increase in passenger rage incidents. So it's a reminder of your place in the status hierarchy.

• 2:10:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:10:23Speaker 03

  And I think it becomes very difficult when trying to warn people off of, like, the, the rich person telling you that money won't fix your problems. Or the famous person telling you that status isn't going to change your self-worth. Or the beautiful person telling you that looks aren't going to actually make you feel more valuable in the world. A lot of the time when, when people hear that, it sounds like a, a luxury belief. It sounds like someone trying to pulling the ladder up after they've managed to achieve it. And that's why, I don't know, the, the rock star that reminds you why it's so cool and this is what you could get.

• 2:10:57Speaker 03

  Rolling Stone ranked Rockstar at number 100 in their list of the 100 best songs of 2007.

• 2:11:02Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 2:11:03Speaker 04

  But BuzzFeed listed it as number two as one of the 30 worst songs ever written.

• 2:11:08Speaker 02

  Hmm. Is it really, though? I think they're unjustly criticized, Nickelback. They're not that bad.

• 2:11:15Speaker 03

  They're coming back around now. They're coming back around.

• 2:11:17Speaker 04

  Nostalgia's bringing them back for sure.

• 2:11:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:11:19Speaker 02

  They're not that bad.

• 2:11:21Speaker 04

  Do you know why people like had an issue with them, I guess, back in the day? Well, so I'm, this was happening when I was in audio school, so that was like when YouTube started, you know? Uh, Napster was very big and people were discovering them. I mean, it's a little bit of opinion-based, but there was a video that came out that went very viral and that played one Nickelback song in the left speaker and one in the right speaker. And they lined up very on the, like, every, uh, chord change was kind of like at the same time. The verses changed at the same time.

• 2:11:51Speaker 03

  The formulaic stuff.

• 2:11:52Speaker 04

  Yeah, it was very formulaic. So people just sort of like clowned them for being too formulaic.

• 2:11:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, I get that.

• 2:11:58Speaker 04

  Engineers would even say that they didn't like that because they were recording what they call in the box, which would mean they were recording everything, uh, very dry and then changing all of the effects after the fact. So like, nothing that they were playing was like live necessarily. And so some people had a problem with that.

• 2:12:14Speaker 02

  I get it. I get it. They're not the Stones. They're not the Stones.

• 2:12:18Speaker 03

  White people music.

• 2:12:19Speaker 02

  They're not Pink Floyd. You know, I get it.

• 2:12:21Speaker 03

  It's white people music.

• 2:12:22Speaker 02

  It's 98 IQ, max.

• 2:12:29Speaker 03

  You can't say that.

• 2:12:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, I just did.

• 2:12:32Speaker 03

  Look, I, uh.

• 2:12:32Speaker 02

  A lot of, that's a good percentage of the population, son.

• 2:12:35Speaker 03

  That's, well, like, I, I can listen to some 98 IQ music. I like me some of that.

• 2:12:40Speaker 02

  What do you think, I mean, max. I'm saying max.

• 2:12:44Speaker 02

  Other, I mean, people like, it's okay. You know, you can have high IQ and go, that's all right. But you're like, I'm going to see Nickelback. Wow. What is high IQ music? Pink Floyd for sure. Well, jazz, I don't know. You know, jazz is interesting. Cause I know a couple of dumb people that love jazz. Um, and then a lot of brilliant people love jazz also. Tool, Tool's very high IQ music. If, if you're into like metal, probably a little disturbed. You're a little disturbed, a little mad at your parents.

• 2:13:09Speaker 04

  Eric Weinstein brought up the Polyph- Polyphia.

• 2:13:12Speaker 03

  I fucking love Polyphia. Tim Henson rules, dude.

• 2:13:15Speaker 04

  Polyphia's, that's, I don't, you have to be thinking a lot to even like.

• 2:13:19Speaker 03

  It's not passive listening. Polyphia's not passive listening.

• 2:13:22Speaker 02

  Um, God, there's a lot of great bands, man.

• 2:13:25Speaker 03

  I don't know what's high IQ music in that way, like, that's popular as well.

• 2:13:29Speaker 02

  I'm being silly, obviously.

• 2:13:30Speaker 03

  But, but I was trying to think about what that would be. If it was Beethoven, you know, something more refined? I don't know.

• 2:13:36Speaker 02

  To, to me, that's the most fascinating music. It's music when there was no recordings.

• 2:13:41Speaker 01

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• 2:14:52Speaker 02

  Visit lifelock.com and save up to 30% your first year with promo code JRE. That's promo code JRE, or go to lifelock.com/jre for 30% off. Terms apply. I am fascinated by the fact that these people wrote down music on paper so that other people could replicate it. And that's how they passed on these amazing songs that people still play in concerts today. There was no ability to record.

• 2:15:26Speaker 03

  Well, think about what stories would have been like before we had the written word.

• 2:15:30Speaker 02

  There's a, you know, there's a lot of really popular magicians, musicians, rather, not magicians, musicians who don't know how to read music.

• 2:15:38Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:15:39Speaker 02

  They don't have to.

• 2:15:40Speaker 03

  And just draw them out on my digital workspace on my laptop?

• 2:15:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. They know how to play an instrument. They know what the sounds it makes. I don't have to see those fucking bullshit lines. Fuck is that?

• 2:15:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, classically trained. Yeah, I mean, everybody loves the idea of being a savant Renaissance guy, sort of outside of the system, coming in and breaking the rules in that way. I wonder how often that happens at the highest level? Like, yeah.

• 2:16:05Speaker 02

  Well, at the highest level, it's Hendrix. Because Hendrix played a guitar upside down, left-handed.

• 2:16:10Speaker 03

  Why?

• 2:16:11Speaker 02

  Because he was left-handed. So he played a right-handed guitar upside down. You ever see the way he played guitar?

• 2:16:18Speaker 03

  No.

• 2:16:19Speaker 02

  I don't know jack shit about playing guitar, by the way. This was explained to me, I think Weinstein was the first person to explain it to me. But pull up Hendrix playing the guitar. He would play it upside down. Because it was, you know, not built for him. And it didn't matter. He self-taught. And to this day, widely regarded as the greatest guitarist of all time. And the most influential guitarist, guitarist by far, the most. Like, he was, he was a freak. Like, when he came along, Eric Clapton famously said that he made him want to quit. That guitar's upside down, dog.

• 2:16:53Speaker 03

  Jesus. You know, I didn't know that.

• 2:16:57Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, I don't know if all of his guitars were upside down, or, you know, some, some of them were actual left-handed guitars. But I think he played upside down. Hendrix was left-handed, but typically used readily available right-handed Stratocasters. He reversed the instrument. This put the headstock, controls, bridge angle, and pickup orientation in unusual positions relative to a conventional left-handed guitar. Isn't that wild?

• 2:17:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:17:22Speaker 02

  Fender, look at this. Fender's Hendrix Signature Stratocaster recreates some of these visual and functional details, including a reverse headstock and reverse slant bridge pickup. Imagine like such a Hendrix fan.

• 2:17:35Speaker 03

  It's locked the same, but it's still turned around.

• 2:17:36Speaker 02

  No, I mean, I think they did it his way.

• 2:17:40Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 2:17:41Speaker 02

  I think they replicated it his way. Because like, if you're a fucking guitar nut, and you love Hendrix, like, I want to, like, why does this guitar bullshit? This guitar's backwards. You know, like, Hendrix doesn't play it like this. I'd want to learn on a Hendrix guitar. Fuck, yeah.

• 2:17:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. I, uh, I know, I've been thinking a lot about, like, how we assume that wisdom compounds over time. So I guess not too dissimilar to that. We have this epistemic privilege that we give to a future version of ourselves, right? So we assume that us now knows more than us in the past, or that us in the future will know more than us now. And that sort of progress goes in that way. But for some things, like matters of emotion, or important life lessons, especially things around pain, I don't think that that's true. So for instance, you could imagine that you're in a relationship with somebody and it's really painful, it's really uncomfortable, and after six months, you bump into them again. And you can't quite remember the sleepless nights, and the way that things felt awkward, and the pain in the same ways you used to.

• 2:18:41Speaker 03

  And you start to think, well, maybe I should, maybe I should get back with them. Maybe, maybe that's, maybe it wasn't so bad. Or the guy that works in a very aggressive job, high-powered, high-paced job, and he's burned out, and he can't sleep, and a year later, he misses the status, misses the acclaim, he misses the accolades, he misses the camaraderie of working in that organization. And he thinks, well, maybe I could get back, maybe I could start again, a competitor, maybe I could do that again. Or someone that's been addicted to alcohol, and after they've been sober for a couple of years, they think, huh, maybe I should, maybe I should run that back. Maybe it wasn't that big of a deal. Maybe I can do it again. So there's this sort of fading affect bias, which is this idea from psychology that says bad memories fade with time, but good memories don't quite the same way.

• 2:19:23Speaker 03

  And it's good, because it protects us from being pinned underneath trauma that happened in the past. You know, you're not still so worried about your first rejection from a girl, in the same ways you might have been shortly after that. So, uh, bad memories plus time can equal comedy, but good memories plus time doesn't usually equal tragedy. It's kind of a way to think about it. That's great. It's like a psychological immune system.

• 2:19:45Speaker 02

  Got it.

• 2:19:46Speaker 03

  We distance ourselves from things, we minimize them, and it's a really fundamental part of the way that we deal with pain and difficulty in life. One of the problems is it causes us to forget the receipts of why we did the hard work in the first place. So if you think about why you worked so hard to get yourself off of the alcohol, that was because of the pain that you felt at the time. But the pain that you felt at the time evaporates the further that you are away from it, which is the reason that you actually made all of that work and put yourself through that process to improve your life. So you could imagine that healing gets rid of the justification that made the healing necessary. So it's just this strange inversion that we always assume us in the future is going to be better educated than us now.

• 2:20:29Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:20:30Speaker 03

  We know more. Like, that's the way that it works. Like, yeah, of course, I've accumulated more experience, I know more, I'm closer to the future version of me, which means that it's more recent. But in some things, especially matters of pain, discomfort, emotionality, being in the future actually means being further away from the evidence. And I often think about this when you see people that kind of seem to loop themselves back into bad situations. Someone that keeps on getting back into a bad relationship, someone that keeps on getting back into a bad relationship with substances, or a job, or they just keep on, they seem to be stuck. And I don't think it's that they're not moving. I think it's that they're sort of looping back, they're forgetting the justification for why they needed to stop doing this thing. Yeah, this idea that healing destroys its receipts, and this fading affect bias being kind of the mechanism that works on it.

• 2:21:15Speaker 03

  I've found it pretty fascinating when thinking about observing my friends' lives.

• 2:21:19Speaker 02

  That is fascinating, but I think there's also an element of people finding comfort in familiar patterns. And sometimes those familiar patterns are just failure. They find comfort in failure. They find comfort in falling off the wagon. It's too difficult, the stress of not drinking is so strong, it's so much, they can't handle it, just give me a fucking drink, Jesus Christ. You know, there's a lot of people that just the pressure of success and not fucking up is so scary, and so daunting, and just maintaining, that they fall into these self-destructive patterns.

• 2:21:52Speaker 03

  Why do you think that's the case?

• 2:21:53Speaker 02

  I don't know. You'd have to talk to a psychologist. But it seems to be a reoccurring pattern with people seeking comfort in, in familiar patterns that are failure patterns. They're like, maybe it takes pressure off of them to succeed. Because for some people, the idea of succeeding, the idea of getting it, it's like, it's so overwhelming. It scares them. It gives them anxiety, it fucks them up all the time. And when they start doing well, hey, 333 days sober. And you start saying things like that, and the next thing, you just pops into your head, I want a fucking Marlboro, and I want a beer, and I want to go to the bar and see my friends. And you just want to go.

• 2:22:31Speaker 03

  Well, that feels like comfort, right?

• 2:22:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:22:33Speaker 03

  I suppose there is a curse with competence. It's interesting when you see people that are kind of down on their luck, and it makes sense that maybe they might hit the bottle, or they might rely on bad, suboptimal habits. But when someone's really competent, and you keep on seeing them fall back, that's what's particularly interesting. So you go, well, look, you've got something else, you have an alternative here.

• 2:22:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:22:54Speaker 03

  That's what's really interesting to me. But I think that if you're the sort of person that's good at things, and stuff typically goes well, success doesn't become a reason for celebration, it's the minimum level of acceptable performance. Right? It's a curse of competence. Success itself is what you have to aim for and anything less than success would be a failure and success itself is nothing more than acceptable.

• 2:23:17Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:23:18Speaker 03

  That creates a really perverse incentive, which is I can only not lose, I can't ever win. It's this sort of debt, you wake up every single day behind and only if you dominate the day perfectly, do you get yourself back up to the minimum level of acceptable performance, which is perfection. And I think the perfectionism is kind of on the rise at the moment, there's a bunch of studies, I've had a few guests on the show talking about it and that is.

• 2:23:43Speaker 02

  How relatively, what do you mean by it's on the rise?

• 2:23:46Speaker 03

  Perfectionism.

• 2:23:47Speaker 02

  Versus.

• 2:23:48Speaker 03

  I mean, the studies that have been done on it, looking at perfectionism as a personality trait, there's a few different types of perfectionism, there's personal perfectionism, I must be perfect, and there's other perfectionism as well, that people around me must be perfect too, and that can be particularly.

• 2:24:03Speaker 02

  How are they measuring the effect of perfectionism? Like, how are they measuring how people enact it in their lives?

• 2:24:10Speaker 03

  It's a.

• 2:24:11Speaker 02

  If it's on the rise.

• 2:24:12Speaker 03

  It's a psychological scale, so they can have a survey, survey questions, things like, if I do not do, if I don't succeed, that means I am a failure, I must ensure that everything is controlled, so there's a criteria list.

• 2:24:26Speaker 02

  Right, but who are they asking? You know, I mean, depending upon who you're asking, you're gonna get a higher version, a higher number. You know, if you're asking people in West Virginia in trailer parks versus someone who's working on Wall Street, you know what I mean, you're gonna get different, it's like, what's the sample size?

• 2:24:43Speaker 03

  Well, I'd be, I'd like to think that they're doing it representatively, but you might be right, there might not be, but anyway, I just, certainly from what I can see, this desire that people have to, I'm in a capitalist society, meritocracy, if I can make myself more important, more successful, that means that I'm going to get accolade, please, please, please.

• 2:25:02Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:25:03Speaker 03

  And this goes back to the poverty parade thing, right? If you're walking through business class to get to economy, you're reminded, you're reminded of your place within the hierarchy. There's also some really interesting data around if you're in a high income inequality area, self-objectification by selfies from women on Instagram goes up. And this is a huge study by Candace Blake over in Australia, and they did a correlation, it might have been on Twitter rather than on Instagram, and they looked at geolocating images, ranked them based on self-objectification, and then looked at the wealth inequality in that local area. Higher wealth inequality, more self-objectification.

• 2:25:39Speaker 02

  Which side is doing the self-objectification?

• 2:25:43Speaker 03

  Women.

• 2:25:44Speaker 02

  Women, but women that are poorer or women that are wealthier?

• 2:25:46Speaker 03

  All women.

• 2:25:47Speaker 02

  All women?

• 2:25:48Speaker 03

  All women, in that area, because, and the proposed mechanism is, you can see not just how high you could climb, look at the inequality on the top end, but how low you could potentially fall to on the bottom end.

• 2:26:00Speaker 02

  Gets you motivated.

• 2:26:01Speaker 03

  Gets you motivated, yeah, and that is the same thing, I think it's a similar sort of mechanism, if you see high inequality, perfectionism is another escape hatch, that's another rejector seat that you can pull, if you're not going to use your assets to get you access, maybe you could just do it yourself, you could bootstrap it yourself to lift yourself off the launchpad.

• 2:26:20Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:26:21Speaker 03

  And, yeah, the perfectionism thing's kind of fascinating to me, because I think it's, it means that people never really get to escape from the standards that they set, and if you're good at stuff, it becomes even harder, because the minimum level of acceptable performance is just perfection, right?

• 2:26:35Speaker 02

  Hmm, not sure how I feel about that. First of all, I think a lot of that has got to be motivated by social media, that's a big part of it, because now you're getting to see what everybody has, what everybody's doing. See what they look like, see their house, see their cars, see their this, see all these things, these objects of desire, so that, I think, accelerates people's desires and wants. And then you also get unrealistic beauty expectations from the internet, particularly social media apps that use filters, right? You're getting a very distorted perception of what people look like, and so that probably accelerates the amount of plastic surgery women get and amount of things that people are willing to do, probably the amount of steroids that young men do, you know, all that stuff.

• 2:27:19Speaker 02

  But, you know, the idea of perfectionism, like, what are we talking about? If you're talking about the pursuit of an excellence of a sport, or of some sort of a discipline, some sort of a thing you do, people have always done that. There's always been like outliers who are trying to be the very best ever at something, you know, that's always gonna be the case, and we celebrate that, because when, you know, there's a guy like Larry Bird that keeps hitting those three pointers, everyone's like, fuck. Remember when I was a kid, people would throw garbage into the little garbage baskets at school, they would go Larry Bird! You know, like, they wanted to be like Larry, they wanted to be like Michael Jordan, they wanted to be like Mike Tyson, people celebrate the outliers, they celebrate these excellent

• 2:28:03Speaker 02

  people that stand above and beyond.

• 2:28:05Speaker 04

  There is a article about it, I don't know how they figured it out yet, but.

• 2:28:08Speaker 02

  Interesting.

• 2:28:09Speaker 04

  There's a, it says it's been growing since 1989.

• 2:28:12Speaker 02

  This is hilarious, perfectionism is a public health risk, it's associated with increased depression and anxiety. Yeah, yeah, you're gonna be depressed and anxious if you're trying to achieve perfection, but I don't know if that's bad. Like, it's really about whether or not you can manage your fucking mind.

• 2:28:33Speaker 03

  That's interesting there, so there's perfectionism has increased in different rates, perfectionistic concerns, fear of failure, indecisiveness, and fear of being negatively judged by others, increase much faster than perfectionistic strivings, the motivation to set extremely high standards and work hard to achieve them. So that's, I guess, maybe the difference between what you're thinking about, which is kind of positive perfectionism, wanting to set a goal and chase after it, as opposed to fear of failure, indecisiveness, and fear of being judged negatively by others.

• 2:29:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's the big one, right? The fear of being judged by others is a real fear because of social media, go back, stop, stop. But when they, they say it increased much faster than perfectionist strivings, so the problem with the perfectionist strivings is then you have to have delayed gratification, you have to have the ability to say, I don't want to do this today, but I want this in the future, so I'm gonna do this today so that in the future I can succeed. That's abstract, that's hard for a lot of people to grasp if they've never gone through a process before, if they've never trusted a process of improvement, this is one of the reasons why sports are so important for young people, or any kind of pursuit, like

• 2:29:43Speaker 02

  learning how to play guitar, or learning, learning anything that's difficult to learn, because you realize there's a process, you realize you start off sucky and then you get better over time. But if you are never doing anything like that, if you're just existing, and you've never been challenged to try to improve at something that's very difficult, you don't understand the striving, the perfectionist striving, and even that term, I don't like that term, excellence is a better term, you're striving for excellence, perfection is not possible in anything, there's no, there's nothing perfect, that, no matter what you do, there's always gonna be a failure, there's, it's a human error, there's always gonna

• 2:30:21Speaker 02

  be, you might get to, like, here's a perfect example, in games of pool, like in professional pool matches, the rarest of rare matches is a match where a guy runs out the entire set. That means, like, say if you and I are playing a race to 10, okay, this means the first guy to make 10 games in a row, if you're really good, you might break and have an open run on the first rack, and break and have an open run on the second rack, and break it up, you might run 10 racks in a row, it's been done. Earl Strickland did it for a million dollars, he won a million dollars at a tournament, and they wound up fucking him, but Earl Strickland's like one of the greatest pool players of

• 2:31:06Speaker 02

  all time. But they, they had a million dollar insurance policy, if someone could run 10 racks to make the tournament more exciting, 10 racks in a row, they won a million dollars, where Earl Strickland is a mad genius, and like, he's one of the greatest players of all time, and he knew there was a million dollars on the lines, this motherfucker came focused, and he broke and ran a 10-pack, and they didn't want to pay him, like, this is bullshit, and, but it was on film, whole thing's crazy, but that's a thousand, nobody does that, and if you do it, you're gonna fall apart in the next game, you'll have another match, like, the next day, you're never gonna be perfect, you're always gonna miss, it's just humans, you, there's gonna be error, you know, Michael Jordan, as good as he was, didn't

• 2:31:47Speaker 02

  make every basketball, you know, Mike Tyson lost fights, you're a human, there's no perfection, but there is excellence, and that's what people are pursuing, really, I don't like that term.

• 2:31:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:31:59Speaker 02

  Perfectionism.

• 2:32:00Speaker 03

  I think what's maybe useful about the term is that it, because that is the term, it belies the futility of pursuing it.

• 2:32:08Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:32:09Speaker 03

  It's like, in, in containing it, it kind of mocks the pursuit of it itself.

• 2:32:13Speaker 02

  Exactly, because it, look, it is ridiculous when you're talking about appearance, it's ridiculous when you talk about frivolous things that are meaningless, but when you're talking about Magnus Walker playing chess, or Magnus Carlsen playing chess, that's, that means something, like, that's a crazy thing that that guy's able to do, that pursuit of extreme excellence is celebrated, when Messi plays soccer, you know, when, when someone is an outlier, like, we love that, so this idea that you shouldn't love the most excellent of excellent people that are the most celebrated in society, and there's a problem with people chasing excellence, like, if you're saying there's a problem with people chasing perfect appearances, because then you get dysmorphia, and you start looking

• 2:32:55Speaker 02

  at yourself all weird, then you get anorexia, or you're getting your lips done, you don't know they're too big, that, yeah, that's fucked up, that pursuit of perfection's insane, the perfection of, but we're not, we're not capable of achieving perfection, we are capable of achieving excellence. So if you call it perfection, it sounds like it's a problem, if you call it excellence.

• 2:33:15Speaker 03

  Sounds like a pursuit.

• 2:33:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:33:17Speaker 03

  Federer, really interesting stat that I found out about him, he won maybe about 80, 85% of the matches that he played across his entire career.

• 2:33:28Speaker 02

  Crazy.

• 2:33:29Speaker 03

  But he only won about 56% of the points.

• 2:33:35Speaker 02

  That's the edge. And you have to be a madman to work hard enough to beat everybody eighty-five percent of the time. You have to be a madman. How many fucking people are playing tennis? How many freak athletes are out there fucking whacking balls all day, doing sprints, lifting weights?

• 2:33:50Speaker 03

  Nearly fifty percent of the points that he played.

• 2:33:53Speaker 02

  Crazy.

• 2:33:54Speaker 03

  I fucking love that stat. Yeah, there's this, this great line that the curse of discipline is that every day looks the same. And the curse of indiscipline is that every year looks the same.

• 2:34:03Speaker 02

  Ooh, I like that.

• 2:34:05Speaker 03

  And I've been thinking about the relationship between discipline, motivation and obsession. So I think obsession's kind of very misunderstood, feared by a lot of people, even the people that have got it sometimes.

• 2:34:18Speaker 02

  It's also dismissed by people that wish they had it. And they don't have it and they mock it.

• 2:34:25Speaker 03

  How so?

• 2:34:26Speaker 02

  Because they, they look at someone who's like obsessed with doing something and like, oh, he's fucking lost his whole life playing that stupid game. Or he's given up his whole life for his music. Like, what's the point? Like, there's a lot of people that want to dismiss the outliers. Maybe they don't like the way they stack up against them. And someone's like the best at something. You watch some guy that can just do this thing that no one else can do the way he does it. Like, there's a bunch of people that celebrate it for sure, but there's always gonna be a bunch of people that think there's something wrong with it.

• 2:34:57Speaker 03

  Being threatened by obsession is kind of interesting. So everybody wants to, I, I, I think it's to do with your relationship with friction. So discipline is friction accepted. It's like, I will force myself to do the thing regardless of how hard it is. Motivation would be friction removed, which is like, I want to do the thing. And then obsession is friction inverted. Like, I can't not do the thing. I'm pulled toward it. It's harder for me to not train than it is for me to train. It's harder for me to not play guitar than it is for me to play guitar.

• 2:35:31Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:35:31Speaker 03

  So it's all about that relationship. And this is why I think people get so confused. Because from the outside, obsession can look a lot like someone just using a shit ton of discipline. Just gritting their teeth and getting through it. What you don't realize, from the inside, they have no choice.

• 2:35:47Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:35:47Speaker 03

  They have no choice but to do it. All that they want, they go to sleep thinking about it, they wake up thinking about it.

• 2:35:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:35:53Speaker 03

  They have no, there is no way that they can stop themselves from doing this thing. And this is why it's dangerous. Obsession gets a bad rap because if it's pointed toward politics or porn or your ex.

• 2:36:03Speaker 02

  Or video games.

• 2:36:04Speaker 03

  Or video games or weed or, you know, whatever. That becomes very dangerous.

• 2:36:09Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:36:10Speaker 03

  And this is why some people, and I'm gonna guess that this is you, it's certainly me. Some people have problem solving brains. They're always kind of rotating a little Rubik's Cube in their mind, thinking, how can I? This is an interesting challenge for me to face and how could I change this thing? How would I fix this thing? Just playing with ideas or trying to get better at something, they're always working on something. Someone that's got a problem solving brain but doesn't have any good problems to solve will just chew themselves up. They will eat themselves inside out because that is when you get obsessed with stuff that you shouldn't do. That is when you get obsessed with porn or politics or your toxic ex or that person that you think that's, that uh cut you off in traffic and that's when you chase after them.

• 2:36:52Speaker 03

  That is the kind of problem solving brain without a good problem to solve.

• 2:36:56Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 2:36:57Speaker 03

  And I think a lot of people feel a degree of shame or at the very least like uh they're marioneted by this problem solving brain, by the speed of what they're going through, the fact that they're always turning something. They can't really get it to switch off. And I think a much easier solution than trying to stop yourself from solving problems is to just give yourself better problems to solve. It's to start a business. It's to get a pursuit that you really care about.

• 2:37:26Speaker 02

  Right, but this sounds very simplistic though. We're talking about like a legitimate mental health issue with a lot of people that don't have the awareness to stop a pattern. You know, like, there's a lot of people that need a friend and they don't have any friends and so they need a counselor. They need someone. They need someone who can talk to them about what they're doing and give them some tools as to how to navigate out of it. Because there's a lot of people that are just stuck in that rut.

• 2:37:50Speaker 03

  I agree.

• 2:37:51Speaker 02

  And they could be really, like, there's people that are wasting their life gambling. They could be really good at something else. They could be really good.

• 2:37:58Speaker 03

  If you applied that effort, that dedication, that obsession to something. Yeah. I, I completely agree. I think the funny thing for anyone that's on the right side of their obsession, they're applying it to something that's positive. Kind of a nice situation to realize, hey, you weren't that far away from being that guy on the street.

• 2:38:16Speaker 02

  Right, right. If you, if you're honest.

• 2:38:19Speaker 03

  With yourself. Your level of obsession could have directed you toward that, that destruction, that distraction, that, that like self-immolation. You, you're not that far away from it. It's the same fuel, it's the same fuel source.

• 2:38:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's just about directing it in a good way and figuring out a way that's gonna be most beneficial to you and the people around you. And some people just aren't good at that problem solving.

• 2:38:45Speaker 03

  Yeah. And I think you're right to point to what you do in childhood. Sport is just, hey, if you work hard incrementally at these component skills, there is an outcome in terms of performance that will happen in future.

• 2:38:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:39:00Speaker 03

  These small amounts, these little efforts will contribute to what you do. When you get there, there's delayed gratification, step by step by step, you work up. And it's just, it kind of lays the physics of the system.

• 2:39:11Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:39:11Speaker 03

  Right, okay? And then you get into adulthood and you go, well, I understand, like delaying gratification's important. I can win the marshmallow test today, which means I can get something that I want in future. I need to think over a longer time horizon typically. I can use my, like, another thing that's kind of fascinating about that obsession piece is when you look at someone like uh Jocko, is a good example. What looks like obsession now, oh, sorry, what looks like discipline is probably just who he is. The four thirty AM thing, the kettlebell swings, the training. At one point, he was obsessed by that. That was probably what he thought about most. I know it was when he was still in the SEALs, like, that was what he wanted. He was wanting to get as big and as jacked and as lethal as possible.

• 2:39:54Speaker 03

  I don't think that's quite his priority in the same way now. But what you see, if you allow yourself to have positive obsessions and for them to cool over time, you basically start to build up these layers of a pyramid, which is, well, I'm not obsessed by training, but I used to when I was in my twenties. And now my training obsession is just who I am. It's cooled like a, like lava's sort of cooled into the core of this planet and it's now who I've become. So my training is just part of my life. And then, okay, what was the net? Well, I started to learn. I wanted to um tell the truth. I wanted to be an, an, an upstanding person. So I started to maybe go to therapy or I, I, I worked on my mental health a little bit more. And okay, that's now cool.

• 2:40:37Speaker 03

  That was an obsession for a while and now I've moved on to the next thing. And I really wanted to build this skill and I wanted to become a good father. So I worked out how I could deal with my emotions when interacting with my kids and now I've got that skill. Over time, serial obsessives, I think, whether it's in business or in training or in personal development, what you end up with is this unbelievably like well-rounded person. But if you don't allow yourself to wear that obsession for a while, and a lot of the time when people get obsessed with stuff, they feel guilty. They feel a little ashamed of it. They, they want to push back against it, but it's the freest discipline and motivation you're ever gonna get. You're never going to find.

• 2:41:13Speaker 02

  Who feels guilty about being obsessed about things?

• 2:41:16Speaker 03

  I think sometimes people do.

• 2:41:17Speaker 02

  About good things?

• 2:41:18Speaker 03

  Hmm, the mockery of your friends around you. Oh, do you, go and play guitar again, are we? Oh, gonna go and, oh, you little music thing, is that going well?

• 2:41:26Speaker 02

  Anybody who falls victim to that, you deserve it.

• 2:41:31Speaker 03

  Because.

• 2:41:32Speaker 02

  That's so silly.

• 2:41:33Speaker 03

  You need to stand up for what it is that you want.

• 2:41:34Speaker 02

  I don't, all the times in my life when I've been obsessed by things, if anybody like tried to mock me being obsessed by it, I'd be like, fuck you, who cares what you think? I couldn't have cared less.

• 2:41:45Speaker 03

  That's interesting. Uh, I don't know whether it's a British, the mockery, the tall poppy thing.

• 2:41:50Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:41:51Speaker 03

  Is a huge part of British culture. If you diverge from the normal path.

• 2:41:55Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:41:56Speaker 03

  It is, you know, we have the same number of universities in the top ten globally, but we produce twenty percent of the entrepreneurs compared with America. And I think that a lot of that is.

• 2:42:08Speaker 02

  Attitude.

• 2:42:10Speaker 03

  It's, it's not, fucking Cambridge, King's London, Oxford, like, these aren't rinky-dink organizations. They attract unbelievable talent. Why is it that we're not producing the same kind of orthogonal thinker, self-starter, sovereign, high-agency people that you might get out of America? And I think a lot of it is, it's just not as encouraged. It's not and it's a shame. And I wish that I could like gift some of the enthusiasm back to the, like, Americans basically have permanent first-line cocaine energy.

• 2:42:42Speaker 03

  So enthusiastic about everything.

• 2:42:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. Some, some Americans.

• 2:42:47Speaker 03

  That's true, but I just, I wish that I could get that back. I wish I could push that back toward the UK. It's something that would make a massive difference.

• 2:42:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, sure. I'm sure it would, but it's very difficult to change the way a whole country thinks. It's like the attitude of the country. This is, the attitude of this country is you could make it here. Like you could, everybody feels like they're just a few good deals away from being rich.

• 2:43:11Speaker 03

  Mm hmm.

• 2:43:11Speaker 02

  Just a, they're a millionaire that just hasn't made it yet. Like, that's.

• 2:43:16Speaker 03

  I think it's one of the reasons that the victimhood culture here has kicked off more, though, that in the UK, you don't expect to be able to become much. Like, it's a very class system still over there. When you're a kid, you're not told that you can be anything that you want to be. If you diverge from the path, one of the first things that happens is, what are you doing that for? It's a stupid idea. Good in some ways, because it keeps your feet on the ground, but bad in other ways, because it means that you don't go for it. You don't take the big swings in the same way. In the US, I get the sense that kids are told you can be anything you want to be. The American dream is still very much alive. If you work hard, you can raise yourself up, pick yourself up by your bootstraps and become something. Okay. What happens if you arrive in adulthood and you're not given that which you felt you were promised as a kid?

• 2:44:01Speaker 03

  Well, that feels like someone's taken it away from you. That feels like someone's stolen your rightful, your promise. This is the same reason, interestingly enough, the same reason why Korea, the women in Korea are some of the most left-leaning in the world, supposedly. That they were given equal access to education over the last few decades. And that meant that as a quite patriarchal society, they were constrained, not, not able to access education in the same way. They finally get into it, they're emancipated, they're getting degrees and higher education at the same rate as the men. And then they get into the real world and all of the employment opportunities haven't caught up.

• 2:44:41Speaker 03

  And it's still very sexist when it comes to the way that employment and promotions and wages, there's still a big wage gap there. And what that means is, in the same way as the American child that was promised all of this stuff as a kid, doesn't get to deliver it when they become an adult. A lot of the women in Korea, it seems, were promised a lot through their education. And then they arrive and the rug feels like it's being pulled out from underneath them by a workforce that is still kind of in the darker, in their equivalent of the dark ages. But this is, people throw their toys out of the pram. Why would they not? I think, I, I think that I deserve this. And yeah, the victimhood culture in America is, I don't know.

• 2:45:22Speaker 03

  I wish I could take some of the bits of America and put them in the UK and some of the bits of the UK and put them in America and I think we'd end up, that was what it used to be. Fuck it, we'll just bring it back together again.

• 2:45:31Speaker 02

  Hmm. Yeah, I think that you're always going to have people that are dissatisfied with their station in life. The question is like, were they equipped with the tools to create a better life when they were younger? And whether they were equipped by their family or they were equipped by whatever thing they got into, a sport they got into when they were young, or some sort of a discipline where they realized this, that it's really important that kids realize at an early age about a process of improvement, trusting the process. That's a, the common phrase that you hear when it comes to anything that you're trying to do this difficult in this country. Trust the process, trust the process. You hear about that with coaches, like in MMA fighters, they're always saying that.

• 2:46:14Speaker 02

  We gotta trust the process, that there's a process of buildup up to a big fight. There's a process of improvement to get to your black belt. There's a process of improvement as you rise through the amateur ranks into a professional ranks. You gotta do things the right way and keep doing them and you're gonna get better. Some people never learn that. And then they get to a point where they think things should have already happened and why haven't things happened for me? And then they get angry, you know, and it's, a lot of it is, it's very difficult to find a good environment. Very difficult to find like-minded people that, that are empowering. And when you're around them, you feel better, you feel motivated, you feel inspired. That's also hugely critical for people. It's a, like, people wanna think, I'm a lone wolf, fuck off.

• 2:46:58Speaker 02

  There's, there's no, no one like that. That's all bullshit. Those people are very depressed.

• 2:47:02Speaker 03

  Where do you think the trust thing comes from? Because I.

• 2:47:05Speaker 02

  Trust.

• 2:47:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, the trust of the process that I think a lot of people want.

• 2:47:10Speaker 02

  It's people that have done it before. You, you have to learn from people that have already done it. Like, if you're learning from a wrestling coach, you're learning from a coach that wrestled. There's no wrestling coaches that didn't wrestle. They all wrestle. And that you learn from them that there's a process and this is what you're gonna do and this is how we're gonna get better. And trust me, when week three comes along and you can run this hill a lot easier than you run it today, you're gonna be thankful for these 5:00 AM practices. Like, yes, sir. You gotta trust the process. And if you have a good coach, the good coach will show you at every step of the way as you're improving. You'll hit a move and he'll say, you see how smooth you hit that? You couldn't hit that move last month.

• 2:47:47Speaker 03

  So true. It's so true, the inability to be able to see your own progress, to be able to see what you're doing. I think for a lot of people, goals are contracts to self-criticize until we succeed. And that's how people whip themselves into submission. And that's the problem with the perfectionism side of things, opposed to excellence, right? If you were to say, I am not enough unless I am perfect, as opposed to, I am good if I keep improving. That seems to be one of the differences between the two. But yeah, like, goals being contracts to self-criticize until we succeed. That's not what a coach would do. I'm sure that wasn't when you were teaching fucking Taekwondo. And someone for the first time manages to land this kick or they win a, it was really, really close. You can pick out the elements.

• 2:48:29Speaker 03

  But so many people have got coaches in their minds that are, that only ever focusing on the negatives.

• 2:48:35Speaker 02

  If you have a good coach and you're in a sport with a bunch of other people that are doing well, it's like statistically proven that your level will be higher than someone who has a bad coach that's around other people that aren't as good. That's just how it always is. The best athletes always come from the great programs. You know, whether it's Oklahoma State University Wrestling or whatever the fuck it is. There's always like a bunch of different killers that come from a great environment with great coaching. People don't have that in life, right? If you had great coaching in life and you were surrounded by a bunch of other fucking Division One All-Americans who are like getting after it every day, you would be motivated. But most people aren't.

• 2:49:16Speaker 02

  And this is a part of the problem. Most people are surrounded by equally lost people who are sad.

• 2:49:23Speaker 02

  And it's hard to rise above. It's hard to say, I don't wanna go to the bar because I'm working on writing this book and I need to write this book. Oh, you're gonna fucking write the book? You're gonna ignore your boys? Like, click. You gotta, you gotta know when to find people that are productive and healthy and are doing things similar to what you're doing. Things where you're like pursuing something that you really enjoy and not just waste your fucking life away drinking every day. Like, a lot of people will do.

• 2:49:50Speaker 03

  That perspective's hard to come by, though.

• 2:49:51Speaker 02

  It is.

• 2:49:52Speaker 03

  Because you need to break out of the frame that you're in already. This is the, the lonely chapter thing that I'm kind of obsessed with. You're so developed that you don't resonate with your old set of friends, but you're not yet sufficiently developed that you've built up your new set of friends. And there's this temptation to go back, to go back to the old patterns, the old habits, the old modes of reassurance.

• 2:50:11Speaker 02

  Just like we were talking about with drug addicts falling off the wagon, because it's like, it's easier. It's easier to fail.

• 2:50:15Speaker 03

  It is simpler. And I guess what's interesting, thinking about choosing a new direction and, and having a degree of self-assurance, like, living your life by design as opposed to default is one of the most important things. But I wonder whether people that are in a, an environment where they don't have any good role models, like, I didn't grow up in particularly like salubrious part of the UK. It's the most working-class town in the back end of the northeast of England. And there weren't that many people around me when I grew up that were like the person I wanted to be like. But there were fucking lots of people like the person I didn't wanna be like. I didn't want his relationship with gambling.

• 2:50:56Speaker 03

  I didn't want the way that he kept on cheating on his wife. I didn't like the fact that he used alcohol to deal with his emotional problems. So, yeah, would it be nice if you had the D1 sports coach as your next-door neighbor every morning telling you that you can, we should go for a run because little Timmy's going for a run as well? Yeah, that'd be awesome. But if you don't have it and you've got some people around you that are reverse role models, you can quite easily, you can make a lot of progress in life by avoiding pitfalls, not just expediting success.

• 2:51:23Speaker 02

  Definitely.

• 2:51:24Speaker 03

  By weaving away from the things that you know that you don't want.

• 2:51:27Speaker 02

  The problem is a lot of those people will try to drag you down. And if you're in close proximity to them and you have to interact with them on a regular basis, it could trip you up. But yeah, a lot of people get motivated by, like, if you're around people that are alcoholics and you see them ruin their life. Like, I have a friend, his family was alcoholics and he's never had a drink his whole life. It's like, I won't touch that shit, ever. He saw it, saw it wreck people's lives, never had a desire to have alcohol. So that was, and, you know, he became very successful. So he figured out a way to just avoid all the problems that all those people had. They motivated him, but it's better to be motivated by someone who's doing something you aspire to.

• 2:52:04Speaker 03

  As opposed to trying to avoid something that's going wrong.

• 2:52:07Speaker 02

  I think the option that people have now that was never available before is you could hear people that you are, that you admire or that you aspire to be like what they are. You could hear them on the internet now. There's way more access to inspiration than ever before. You know, when you have some high achiever who goes on a podcast and has a conversation about something that they do and you can realize how this guy built his company or built his life or became this amazing athlete and what they went through. You, you can learn from conversations that you're not in the room with. You know, you, you don't get a chance to hang out with, you know, David Goggins or whatever, but you get a chance to listen to him talk now

• 2:52:49Speaker 02

  where it just wasn't available before. For all the different outliers, like, like we were talking about Larry Bird before. Who the fuck was Larry Bird listening to? He had to be listening to the other basketball players that were playing with him that were all a bunch of killers. Like, that was the only way he got good. Like, he didn't have the internet. He couldn't just go on YouTube and find inspirational quotes. You know, he couldn't listen to an Alan Watts lecture and have a new perspective on life. It was harder. It's a lot harder. It's a lot easier now. It's a lot easier now to be inspired. It's a lot easier now to also have examples of people that are living a life that is aligned with what you're looking for versus what you see around you all the time. You don't just accept it anymore. People, there's a lot more people now that are like, I've gotta get the fuck away from these people.

• 2:53:32Speaker 03

  Well, because the alternative is that you're.

• 2:53:35Speaker 03

  Fortunately, like serendipitously, just born into a culture where there's some people like the person you want to be like, right next to you.

• 2:53:43Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:53:43Speaker 03

  Like, how many people that are excellent individuals that are gonna go on to try, that have the capacity to go on to do something incredible, are around other people that are like that, too?

• 2:53:52Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:53:53Speaker 03

  Not meant, because by design, you're an outlier. So if you're an outlier, there's gonna be fewer people like you. Being able to hear people say, I remember, I was listening to a pod a while ago, and there was this line on it, I think it was Mel Robbins, that said something like, um, "All my life, I'd always felt like someone was mad at me." And I was like, huh, I've never heard anybody put it, put it that way before. All my life, I'd ever, I'd-

• 2:54:16Speaker 02

  Did Mel Robbins say this?

• 2:54:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:54:18Speaker 02

  I've never listened to her podcast, but Tim Dillon was making fun of her today, and it was the funniest shit I've ever heard in my life.

• 2:54:24Speaker 03

  I listened to that, too.

• 2:54:25Speaker 02

  He goes, "She makes Gary Vee sound like Aristotle." "Tim Dillon is the best. He's the best."

• 2:54:36Speaker 03

  Have you seen Gary Vee's talking about V friends recently? Did you see this, Jamie?

• 2:54:40Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:54:41Speaker 03

  Have a little, this, this-

• 2:54:42Speaker 02

  I don't wanna watch this.

• 2:54:43Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 2:54:44Speaker 02

  Don't make me do this.

• 2:54:45Speaker 03

  Okay, all right. Well, you made me watch a leg kick.

• 2:54:47Speaker 02

  He's a nice guy.

• 2:54:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:54:49Speaker 02

  Gary's a nice guy. I've had him on the podcast before.

• 2:54:51Speaker 03

  Well, maybe we don't need to learn about that. Anyway, just, my point is, regardless of who it comes from, you can find inspiration in a variety of places.

• 2:54:55Speaker 02

  You certainly can, but there's more now than ever before. And there's never a time in human history where you could be more inspired. You just have to seek it. But you also have to avoid the tricks. There's all a little bunch of things that are gonna trick you and steal your attention. You gotta avoid the nonsense, avoid the nonsense on social media, and just find things that, your time is very valuable, and the same feeling that you get out of watching a Tik, like, the same dopamine rush that you get from watching a TikTok video that means nothing, you also get from watching a YouTube video where you're gonna learn something. It's like, it's just as interesting.

• 2:55:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, talking about the thing-

• 2:55:31Speaker 02

  More so.

• 2:55:32Speaker 03

  Talking about the thing and doing the thing via for the same resources, so you need to allocate yours appropriately.

• 2:55:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:55:38Speaker 03

  Like, how many people are just great at talking about how their plans are gonna go? "This is what's gonna happen next. I can't wait. I can't wait for this new business that's gonna go up." And it never happens.

• 2:55:47Speaker 02

  Were you around when The Secret was a big movie and a bunch of people really believed that they could just sort of manifest their life-

• 2:55:54Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 2:55:55Speaker 02

  -by thinking about it?

• 2:55:56Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 2:55:57Speaker 02

  That was a fascinating time.

• 2:55:58Speaker 03

  You know, that lady said that the reason the Boxing Day tsunami happened in Thailand was because the citizens were giving off bad juju.

• 2:56:07Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 2:56:08Speaker 03

  This, she basically said that they'd manifested, it was like, thousands, tens of thousands of people displaced because of a tsunami that happened on Boxing Day.

• 2:56:16Speaker 02

  Imagine.

• 2:56:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:56:18Speaker 02

  Imagine believing that.

• 2:56:19Speaker 03

  Ah, dude, the, the crazy thing is, the secret, the visualization stuff, which I'm sure tons and tons of the athletes that you've worked with, or that you commentate on, so many of them are using visualization, but people forget that you need to actually go and do the work as well. You think like, um, "God'll steer the boat, but you still have to row," as opposed to, you can just sit in the boat and think about it, and you'll get rowed there yourself.

• 2:56:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:56:42Speaker 03

  And that's the issue. The issue is that people want a shortcut, and if you can give them a shortcut-

• 2:56:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think the visualization and the belief is an element. It's an element. If you can never see yourself succeeding, you'll probably fuck it up somehow. But if you can see yourself succeeding and you have a direct plan, and you also put in the work, your odds of success are higher. That's all it is. But the people that have said that they used The Secret to succeed, they're only the people that used it and it worked. How many people used it and it didn't work? Probably a fuckload more.

• 2:57:14Speaker 03

  Survivor shift bias is a hell of a drug.

• 2:57:16Speaker 02

  It is a hell of a drug.

• 2:57:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, I, uh, yeah, it's, it's one thing to get what you want, but it's another thing to want what's worth getting in life.

• 2:57:24Speaker 02

  Well, there's a lot of people believe that it was like God's will for them to succeed. "I knew God had a pa, a plan for me." Okay, does God have a plan for that dude who's doing heroin in the corner? What about the guy that's pissing on himself on Skid Row? Does God have a plan for that guy? That's, God doesn't like him. "I didn't like him when he was a baby. I don't like him now. Fuck that guy, give him fentanyl."

• 2:57:46Speaker 03

  How do you, how do you come to sort of think about the unfairness of the, the hands that are being dealt there? Because when I think about that, it does make me really sad. Makes me sad to think about how unfortunate some people's, like, decks of cards have been.

• 2:57:59Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, man. Oh, yeah, I mean, you could get born to a pair of junkies. Two junkies can have sex on Skid Row, and you're born addicted to fentanyl right out of the box, and your life is fucked. Versus if you have a child, you're a great guy, you're educated, you're interesting, you're intelligent, your kid's gonna grow up with a cool dad. It's like, it's like, it's not fair.

• 2:58:21Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 2:58:22Speaker 02

  It's not even remotely fair, you know? And we don't do enough to, to fucking mitigate the unfairness. And I don't mean in terms of like redistribution of wealth or anything like that, like, making sure there's not that level of despair and poverty in a functional society. You know, and the fact that there's almost no effort, no real concerted effort to clean up any of these problems that we have had for decades upon decades upon decades in our cities, it's kind of crazy. The amount of money we spent on other things, we could've fixed that a long time ago. You know, there's a lot of conspiracies about that, too, that they don't want that, because if more people become educated and more people become ambitious, it's gonna be harder to fuck them over.

• 2:59:07Speaker 02

  It's gonna be harder to force them to pay taxes for an inefficient government that's stealing and-

• 2:59:12Speaker 03

  People ask too many questions.

• 2:59:13Speaker 02

  ...filled with fraud and waste. Yes. Too many competent people. You won't be able to keep your job being an incompetent legislator. You know, there's a lot of theories about why schools suck so hard, and there's so little money being put into schools. When you think about the amount of power that a teacher has over a child, you, you're, you're working all day, okay? You're at work, your kid is with another adult, and then a different adult, and then the next hour, and a different adult the next hour, and they're shaping their worldview for a solid seven, eight hours a day-

• 2:59:46Speaker 03

  More than you.

• 2:59:47Speaker 02

  -five days a week. More than you. You're working all day. So you come home, like, "What are they teaching in school? What? Daddy, they taught me I could be anything I want. I could be a girl. Oh, God. Daddy, they taught me how important communism is. What? Ah, fuck." And what are you gonna do? You're gonna go to the school, and you're gonna yell at the meeting, and what do they do when that happens? They turn, turn the parents into terrorists. They say the parents are terrorists.

• 3:00:10Speaker 03

  Why?

• 3:00:13Speaker 02

  They've called parents terrorists for showing up at school board meetings and yelling that they don't want their kids being taught about sexuality, or they don't want their kids being taught about this.

• 3:00:25Speaker 03

  For fuck's sake.

• 3:00:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, so they've, there's school boards that have tried to censor parents, and have tried to like, label them domestic terrorists for trying to interrupt meetings and say that they don't want their children being taught these ways. And so then, what are your options? You homeschool? You gotta, "Oh, I don't have the time. Fuck."

• 3:00:42Speaker 03

  A huge amount of cost? Yeah, I, I, dude, it is-

• 3:00:45Speaker 02

  It's weird. It's weird out there, man.

• 3:00:48Speaker 03

  The state of the US education system at the moment seems fucking wild. There was these studies that came out of Illinois, basically no one in high school could read at like, a fourth grade level. It's fucking insane. I saw a video of a teacher crying that none of the students were even remotely competent.

• 3:01:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, what is a state that just, because students were doing so bad, they completely dropped their standards? Was it Oregon? I forget what governor, but like, ridiculously dropped their standards for reading and math? Yeah, it's not good. I mean, that would, that should be something we're really concentrating on. It should be a really important thing in our world that's discussed every day versus whether or not men can play in the WNBA.

• 3:01:36Speaker 03

  Meanwhile, Penn State had a cocaine ring at one of the fraternities. Do you see that?

• 3:01:42Speaker 02

  A ring?

• 3:01:43Speaker 03

  Cocaine ring. So there was-

• 3:01:45Speaker 02

  What do you mean, a ring?

• 3:01:46Speaker 03

  Like, two different fraternities were-

• 3:01:47Speaker 02

  Were selling cocaine?

• 3:01:48Speaker 03

  Oh, not just selling cocaine. They were driving to Philadelphia and back, and New York and back, to like, create a huge cartel for this massive, massive scandal. The dad of one of the guys that was in, that was the leader of it is some attorney dude that was like, covering it up, putting money and drugs in the safe, and the pledges that were pledging to go into the fraternities were made to cut and bag the cocaine.

• 3:02:10Speaker 02

  That's hilarious.

• 3:02:12Speaker 03

  Free labor.

• 3:02:13Speaker 02

  What, what school was this?

• 3:02:14Speaker 03

  Penn State.

• 3:02:15Speaker 02

  My God.

• 3:02:16Speaker 03

  Fourteen people arrested, including one of them that was the dad. This kid's got like, a gazillion charges for it. It's-

• 3:02:22Speaker 02

  Meanwhile, they're just entrepreneurs.

• 3:02:24Speaker 03

  Look.

• 3:02:25Speaker 02

  They're just entrepreneurs in a bad-

• 3:02:27Speaker 03

  We need to encourage, we need to encourage an entrepreneurial spirit.

• 3:02:28Speaker 02

  It's, the entrepreneur's in a bad direction. It's like what we were talking about before.

• 3:02:32Speaker 03

  Obsession.

• 3:02:33Speaker 02

  Obsession in the wrong direction.

• 3:02:34Speaker 03

  Why, Penn State's great for wrestling, right? Why didn't you go and do wrestling?

• 3:02:36Speaker 02

  Or imagine if they put all that effort into a legitimate business.

• 3:02:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:02:41Speaker 02

  They'd probably, getting out of college, already wealthy.

• 3:02:43Speaker 03

  Speaking of that, did you see Ben Askren return to wrestling one year after his-

• 3:02:48Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 3:02:49Speaker 03

  Dude.

• 3:02:50Speaker 02

  Crazy.

• 3:02:51Speaker 03

  I had him on the pod like, two weeks before he won.

• 3:02:52Speaker 02

  I can't believe he did it. It's so nuts with two lung replacements. He's got artif, I mean, he's got lung donations, like, somebody gave him lungs.

• 3:03:03Speaker 03

  Immunosuppressant.

• 3:03:04Speaker 02

  Someone died, and yeah, he's, he has to be on immunosuppressant or so his body doesn't reject the lungs. But having lung transplants is crazy. Having two is really crazy. And then wrestling a year later is just beyond insane.

• 3:03:17Speaker 03

  He never looked at what the surgery was that he got. He doesn't know how they did it, so I went and had a look, and it's the full-

• 3:03:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:03:25Speaker 03

  -breasts. It's like, you're spread eagled from reverse.

• 3:03:28Speaker 02

  Like a fish. Dude, I gotta pee, and we gotta wrap this up.

• 3:03:31Speaker 03

  All right.

• 3:03:32Speaker 02

  Christopher, it's always a good time to see you.

• 3:03:34Speaker 03

  Appreciate you, man.

• 3:03:35Speaker 02

  Appreciate you, too. Uh, tell everybody your podcast, where they can get it, where they can watch it.

• 3:03:39Speaker 03

  Modern Wisdom, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube. Just dropped an episode with Jocko Willink, Matt McCusker, and Jeff Die, so you can go and check that one out.

• 3:03:46Speaker 02

  Oh, nice.

• 3:03:47Speaker 03

  Or you can go back and watch the, the Hunter Biden episode.

• 3:03:48Speaker 02

  That's a good combo.

• 3:03:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'm doing this, it's a Mostly Wise, which is the new series. It's me and McCusker with a serious seat, Hunter Biden was the serious seat for one, we had Huberman for another, we've got Neil deGrasse Tyson coming up, and Brian Johnson, and I'm like, throwing another comedian in as well, so it's kind of fun.

• 3:04:02Speaker 02

  Beautiful.

• 3:04:03Speaker 03

  Beautiful. Appreciate you, man. Until next time.

• 3:04:06Speaker 02

  Appreciate you, bro. All right, bye, everybody.

• 3:04:08Speaker 03

  Bye.