#2533 - Diana Pasulka

Diana Pasulka is a professor of religious studies at the University of North Carolina Wilmington and the author of several books. Her most recent, "The Others: UFOs, AI, and the Secret Forces Guiding Human Destiny," is out now.https://static.macmillan.com/static/smp/the-others-9781250394866/www.youtube.com/@Diana. Walsh. Pasulkahttps://substack.com/@dwpasulkawww.dwpasulka.com Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan. Use code ROGAN at https://BlueChew.com to get 10% OFF + Free Overnight Shipping on your first order. Switch today at https://www. Visible.com for just 25/mo. Or Save $10 on your first month of Visible+ Pro with code ROGAN. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The Joe Rogan Experience.

• 0:17Speaker 01

  Of course I know who he is. Yeah, yeah, and I believe him.

• 0:20Speaker 00

  I do, too. I mean, he certainly seems believable. I'm, you know, people that tell the same story for decades and decades without any variation to it. It's hard. I mean, you know, I don't know what happened, but all the people that were with him during the time we're talking about, for people just listening now, talking about Travis Walton, who was a man who in the 1970s was a logger in Arizona, and he was allegedly, according to him, abducted by aliens. And the people that he was with saw him get hit by a beam of light. They freaked out, took off. They were driving away, and they were like, we gotta go back and get him. We gotta go back and get him. They turned around, went back and got him, tried to get him. He was gone.

• 1:04Speaker 00

  The craft was gone. And he disappeared for five days and then turned up and had this insane story.

• 1:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, and then he's taken those tests, like-

• 1:18Speaker 00

  Polygraph tests?

• 1:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, polygraph tests, like every year or something like that. He takes them regularly, and he always passes them.

• 1:25Speaker 00

  Well, so did the people that were with him.

• 1:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And I've seen people interview the people that were with him even just recently. And they're like, well, whatever, regardless of what I think about Travis as a person, yeah, that happened.

• 1:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, one of the guys actually got in a fistfight with him the day of the abduction. The guy did not like him. Like, they hated each other. And then, you know, they were young guys. And then he had to testify. And he was like, it happened.

• 1:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:54Speaker 00

  Whatever it was.

• 1:55Speaker 01

  So, yeah, I believe him. And his interpretation has changed a lot, too, through the years. And not the facts. The facts are all the same. But his interpretation of them, like, you know, were they, because he thought they were pretty malign, like, bad, right? He didn't enjoy being abducted, let's put it that way. But then, over the years, he said, well, maybe something spiritual happened. But I don't know where he's at right now. I haven't seen a recent interview.

• 2:19Speaker 00

  There's an interesting one that's out now with him and Bablo Zahr, sitting across from each other-

• 2:24Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 2:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, in a diner. It's very weird. And they're sitting there eating pie, talking about, you know, what they think this whole thing is.

• 2:34Speaker 01

  Uh huh, uh huh. Yeah, yeah.

• 2:37Speaker 00

  So what's new in the world of all this?

• 2:41Speaker 01

  Well, a lot, right? So, the government has been releasing UFO files since May 2026. And this is something that a lot of people think is really important. And, you know, it's a form of disclosure. They're pushing the group that is pushing this and happy that this is happening. They're also wanting the president to come out and say, yeah, we, there are these things. I saw J.D. Vance on your show the other day. That was really interesting. He's, of course, I was interested in what he had to say. You kind of pushed back on his, what he was talking about in terms of calling, I don't want to use that word, the D-word, right?

• 3:22Speaker 00

  Demons?

• 3:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:23Speaker 00

  Why don't you want to use that word?

• 3:25Speaker 01

  Because I must take this opportunity now to say that I am speaking on your podcast as a private individual, and I don't represent my university talking about this, okay? So, I mean, seriously, look what happened to him. So, he basically, you know, was honest and said, yeah, I think that these are, you know, demons. Well, you know, that was the headline, Joe. But when you actually listen to what he had to say, it was more complicated. And so I thought that he did a good job of talking about it with you. And if you want, we can talk about that, why he would think that. He is Catholic. I'm Catholic. I do, history of Catholicism is part of what I do. By the way, I'm a professor of religious studies

• 4:09Speaker 01

  at university. So, yeah, so I've been like, looking at that, I've been doing Catholic history my whole life. So I started looking into UFO experiences in 2012. And, yeah, so lots is new, lots of stuff is new, okay?

• 4:28Speaker 00

  I didn't think that he had a very satisfying explanation as to why he would say, I think they are demons.

• 4:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I can fill that out.

• 4:36Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 4:36Speaker 01

  Okay, or fill that in. All right. So, he's coming from the perspective of Catholic theology. So, in Catholic theology, there are generally, if you're looking at anomalous phenomena, which they do, supernatural anomalous phenomena, a lot of weird stuff happens within the history of religions, okay? So, they have categories for understanding this stuff. And the categories include three different categories, basically, three different types of things. Supernatural things, which they think can't be explained, and that they're like miracles. You know, someone terminally ill prays for a saint in intercession, and

• 5:17Speaker 01

  then they become healed, and doctors say, we can't figure that out. That's supernatural. That's a miracle from God. Okay, that's one category. The other category is the natural. So things that are within nature, we can explain them, you know, everybody knows what a natural kind of event is, hurricanes and things like that. But there's, there are events that cannot be explained, but don't merit supernatural, the supernatural category. And those events, by the way, there's a word for it, and they call it the preternatural, okay? The preternatural. And this has been a category that Catholics have had since at least the medieval time period. And because they're trying to figure out, you know, if,

• 5:59Speaker 01

  let's just talk about UFOs. If UFOs are here now, most likely, they've been around for a long time. And so whatever Catholics were seeing in the medieval time period, they were, they had categories for trying to understand it, just like we're trying to have, too. And so they're, they say, the theologians at the time said, like Aquinas, Thomas Aquinas, he said, okay, the preternatural, these are events that happen, and they're either angelic, like, you know, good things like that, or demonic, which are fallen angels, or other things. Because God has created other things other than, you know, he's created the unseen and the seen, some things that we can't see. So in the preternatural, there happens to

• 6:41Speaker 01

  be experiences that people have with things that seem to be similar to what people talk about when they're talking about being abducted by UFOs. Beings that appear and disappear. Beings that can seemingly read your mind. So this would be the theological category that Catholics have called the preternatural. And I think that's what J.D. Vance was trying to get at.

• 7:08Speaker 00

  But why would you call that a demon?

• 7:10Speaker 01

  Okay, so this is a good question. And that's where I'm going to kind of like, help push back on you, and then you could push back on me again. All right. So, the fact is, is that we don't know. Okay, we don't know. So, there's analogous experiences that people have. Now that I've been doing this since 2012, a long time, it is beyond a doubt that there's a pattern match between people who have these experiences and people who have demonic experiences. That's an analogy, but that doesn't prove that they're identical.

• 7:43Speaker 00

  When you say pattern match, what do you mean?

• 7:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I'm talking about what people actually experience. So when people have these experiences, what happens to them? They report things like things appearing and disappearing, luminous lights, okay, lights showing up, aerial phenomena. They also report beings, beings that can somehow read their minds. They also report that sometimes they feel like these beings put thoughts in their minds, okay? These are all things that Catholics who know the history would say, wow, that sounds like this kind of situation. Does that mean it is that situation? There's no, no, we can't say that it is. And that's where your point is relevant. Your point is that, how do we know that they're demons?

• 8:30Speaker 01

  We don't know that they're demons. But it warrants an investigation, I think, into the similarities.

• 8:38Speaker 00

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• 10:10Speaker 00

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  Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Try it for free at ziprecruiter.com/Rogan. That's ziprecruiter.com/Rogan. Meet your match on ZipRecruiter. Okay, but when you think about demons, most people think about evil. They think about something that does horrible things to you, possession, you know, something that causes you to murder people, or something that wants to murder you, or something wants to steal your soul. That doesn't seem at all like what we're talking about with these UFO experiences. What it seems like is you're encountering something that has a superior intelligence,

• 11:36Speaker 00

  of superior technology, something that's very different, that communicates telepathically. But they don't seem to have vicious intentions. So I don't understand the distinction. I understand why you would call that a demon. Unless you're just using that in this old-school term, because the people that were experiencing this supposedly, or assumedly, when we're talking about ancient times, and they didn't have words for it, and they didn't know what they were experiencing, they would call that a demon.

• 12:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. Okay, so this is a really good comment. And this is something that I'd agree with you, like, before 2016. I'd say, yeah, you're right.

• 12:18Speaker 00

  What changed?

• 12:19Speaker 01

  Okay, I did a lot of research. And what I found was that, let's take an example, because examples are good. Skinwalker Ranch. So there are a lot of people who are associated with, looking into UFOs, who are well-known to UFO people, who work at Skinwalker Ranch. Okay. So I learned about Skinwalker Ranch pretty early on, 2013 or so. And I learned it from, about it from Gary, Gary Nolan. All right. So he said, he was talking to me about it. He said, yeah, a lot of my friends are working out there and they want me to go out there and do some study of what's going on. There's anomalous phenomena.

• 13:03Speaker 01

  They think it's associated with UFOs because UFOs show up and this and that. And I said, oh, are you going to go out there? And he said, no, I'm not going out there. And so I was like, well, okay, why? And he said, because it's really negative, the things that happen to people. They get something called the hitchhiker effect. And so the hitchhiker effect is when this scary stuff that's associated with like a haunted place follows you home.

• 13:30Speaker 00

  Right. I've heard of that before.

• 13:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, the hitchhiker effect. I think it's called the hitchhiker syndrome or something. And so I met a lot of people who had this happen to them, who had had UFO experiences. So I would say that, no, not all UFO experiences are like that, but enough of them are like that for me not to ever have one. And also to associate the preternatural, that's what I started to understand, that, well, the preternatural is still the best category that we have for looking at this, because not all preternatural phenomena, even for Catholics, is negative. Right? Some of this is actually really positive. But the thing, the problem is that human beings have a hard time figuring out, like, you know, it could be deceptive.

• 14:17Speaker 01

  This is another thing where Gary Nolan comes in. He was on Tucker Carlson, I don't know, like, four years ago or something. And he said, and I've talked to him about this too. Tucker asked him about, well, what do these things, you know, what do they say? And he goes, oh, they lie. They're deceptive. You know? And he's a guy who doesn't have a dog in the race in terms of religion. Like, he's not, you know, affiliated with any religion. So, you know...

• 14:44Speaker 00

  Well, when he said they lie, like, what specific examples does he have of them lying?

• 14:48Speaker 01

  Okay, so, listen, when we start to look at this type of situation with, you know, these experiences and so forth, what a Catholic would do, like what a Catholic priest say would do, would be to identify if there's deceit happening, to identify if there are negative effects, and, you know, because there's criteria for looking at the preternatural. And so, a lot of things that happen are when you have, you know, these abductions, which some people view as positive, but some people don't. They don't like these abductions. So, yeah, they'll say things that aren't true.

• 15:30Speaker 00

  Like what?

• 15:31Speaker 01

  I don't know. They'll say like, okay, I'll take, I'll take an example. I'm not going to out any experiences that I know, but I know a lot. So at this point, I've had like, I don't know, about 1,000 people talk to me about their experiences. So, one in particular regularly gets prophetic messages, some of which come true, most of which are not true. Okay? That means when you have one or two prophetic messages given to you by an anomalous, you know, being or whatnot, and it comes true, you're willing maybe to believe it, right? Oh, this is, you know, this is telling me good information.

• 16:15Speaker 01

  But then they start not to come true. And then if that person makes this public, that person then is, you know, people associate them with falsehood and deceit, and that's not a positive thing.

• 16:30Speaker 00

  Okay, but have you taken into consideration that this person might be mentally ill?

• 16:34Speaker 01

  Of course, of course. Yeah, yeah.

• 16:37Speaker 00

  So, this idea that they're getting all of these, like, whatever it is, visions, I mean, how are they receiving this information? Are they receiving it telepathically? Like, when you say prophetic?

• 16:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So, there are different, so you asked me what kinds of people, like, what they would say, right?

• 16:57Speaker 00

  But if these things are deceiving them, so they have these prophetic visions, right? How are these visions manifesting themselves in their mind?

• 17:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 17:07Speaker 00

  Is it coming as a voice? Are they seeing an event happen?

• 17:11Speaker 01

  Okay, so...

• 17:14Speaker 01

  There are a variety of ways in which people receive this type of information, like prophetic information. I would say that some people actually see things and the beings like impart telepathically, like mind-to-mind transmission, something, this is gonna happen. And then they believe it. Okay, this happens within like angel events, like Marian apparitions, it happens to, you know, people. It happens to people in abductions as well. And, you know, I, I mean, that's what happens to them. They see things, they sometimes have visions in their dreams. So there's, there are a variety of ways that people can get this information.

• 17:55Speaker 00

  Right, but let's stop right there. Visions in their dreams could also just be dreams. Like, how can they just make a distinction between just dreams, like, oh, Godzilla was chasing me, I was on a skateboard, I ran into my cousin, we hid in his basement, and then I woke up? Like, that's just a dream, that's not a prophecy. And if they're having those dreams as well, as these visionary dreams that they think are inspired by some entity, how are they making the distinction between the two of them if both of them exist at the same time in the same person's mind?

• 18:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So, within the culture of, within our culture, we tend to put dreams in the same category. We say, the dream about Godzilla is like, you know, all dreams are the same, right? They're either bad dreams or good dreams or neutral. Within, there are other cultures that distinguish different types of dreams. And within the Western culture, there have been times when people have distinguished different types of dreams. Like, say, you take the Old Testament or Hebrew Bible. You have Joseph, right? Joseph is a guy who's gonna be big, uh, he's a prophet. And he has dreams where he's able to tell the future. And he's able to distinguish between those dreams.

• 19:07Speaker 01

  So, within certain cultures, even cultures today, like different religious cultures, they have distinctions. The Mar 2 in Australia, they have, you know, they, they talk about the dream time. So, we're kind of a culture that puts all dreams in the same category. And granted, that's true. In terms of discussing whether or not people are mentally ill, Travis Walton's not mentally ill, right?

• 19:33Speaker 00

  Right, but Travis Walton is not having prophecies.

• 19:36Speaker 01

  No, I know, but he's, he's one that doesn't. And there are others who do.

• 19:41Speaker 00

  I understand, but we got to this place because you were talking about beings that deceive, right?

• 19:46Speaker 01

  Yes, so I'm saying that, not all of them deceive, but I'm saying that, I'm trying to explain-

• 19:52Speaker 00

  I'm trying to ask you.

• 19:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 19:54Speaker 00

  How are they deceiving?

• 19:55Speaker 01

  Well, I just told you, so they'll be giving people information about the future, some of which is correct and some of which is not.

• 20:02Speaker 00

  Okay, so how are they giving them this information? They giving it to them telepathically, or is it coming to them in a vision and a dream?

• 20:08Speaker 01

  It's-

• 20:09Speaker 00

  They're two very different things, right?

• 20:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it could be both, depending on the instance.

• 20:14Speaker 00

  Right, but if it's in a dream, how do they know it's coming from this entity and not just a dream? That's my point.

• 20:19Speaker 01

  No, I know that, yeah.

• 20:20Speaker 00

  Like, if they're saying they're being deceived.

• 20:21Speaker 01

  Well, a lot of them won't make that distinction. And so that's where you need a-

• 20:26Speaker 00

  The abductees.

• 20:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:28Speaker 00

  Won't make that distinction.

• 20:29Speaker 01

  Because they've never had this happen to them before. So, of course, they're going to think, this is true. But my position is that, be careful because we don't know if it's true or if it's not.

• 20:40Speaker 00

  Right, but I mean, how are you making the distinction between what is just their imagination and them being deceived? This episode is brought to you by BlueChew. I'm sure you've heard of BlueChew by now, but let me tell you what they've been up to. They've been on a mission to get you bricked up for years, and now the number one brand for better sex. Over five million happy men have bought BlueChew for better sex, and you know what? Girls love the results, too. Their new four-in-one chewable, BlueChew Gold, is for performance and passion. Two ingredients maximize blood flow for stronger, longer-lasting boners, and two, get you in the mood. It's designed to dissolve under your tongue for fast results.

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• 21:48Speaker 01

  Right, that's the good question. I don't know.

• 21:52Speaker 00

  So, how is Gary Nolan saying they lie?

• 21:54Speaker 01

  Well, he's taking data, and he's saying that they're saying this, you know, they're telling these people this information, and it's wrong information. And so, he's not making, you know, he's not trying to make a big claim, he's just basically saying, you know, Tucker asks him, why? You know, what kind of things are they saying? And he said, well, they're being deceived, right? They say deceitful things. And my point, that, by the way, getting back to the original-

• 22:21Speaker 00

  All right, but it would be, it's very frustrating. Go ahead.

• 22:24Speaker 01

  No, no, I know you're frustrated. But the original question here is, what is J.D. Vance talking about when he's saying these are demons? And I'm trying to explain that he's referencing this theological category that has been around for a long time, and that is actually quite useful in adjudicating what's going on when people are having these experiences now. I'm saying that, I'm not trying to propose that these are like experiences, honestly, I wouldn't want them to happen to me. And I don't wish them upon anyone. But some people-

• 22:56Speaker 00

  You wouldn't wanna meet an alien?

• 22:57Speaker 01

  Not the aliens that people seem to be meeting. So, no.

• 23:04Speaker 00

  Which one would you like to meet?

• 23:05Speaker 01

  Well, I don't know, I mean, hypothetically, like, I'm not sure they're-

• 23:08Speaker 00

  I like to put it out there, I'm down. If they wanna meet me, I'm down.

• 23:11Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 23:12Speaker 00

  I'd love to meet one.

• 23:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 23:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I wanna know. I'm not scared. But they don't seem to steal you. They don't take you away and never bring you back. They just, they just interact with you. I'm down with that.

• 23:26Speaker 01

  I mean, we have to distinguish between, yeah, go for it, meet an alien, Joe.

• 23:31Speaker 00

  You don't want that? You wouldn't want that?

• 23:33Speaker 01

  Look, if aliens-

• 23:34Speaker 00

  But you are a person who writes books about aliens.

• 23:37Speaker 01

  Yes, I do write books, well, somewhat about aliens. I write about the religion about aliens.

• 23:43Speaker 00

  Yes, but a lot of the subject matter has to do with extraterrestrial intelligence, or whatever it is.

• 23:50Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, we don't know what it is, that's the point.

• 23:52Speaker 00

  It might not be extraterrestrial, it might be interdimensional, right?

• 23:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 23:56Speaker 00

  Or it might be here, something that's of a superior intellect that's been here all along.

• 24:02Speaker 01

  And it might be something within the category of the preternatural.

• 24:05Speaker 00

  Right.

• 24:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, so my point is that if it is, if it, whatever it is, I, you're right, I've been studying it, and I can say that if those are the aliens, no, I don't wanna meet them. If the, if they're the ones that, like, people have come and told me about and said, I wish this never happened to me, you know, then no, I don't want to meet those aliens.

• 24:27Speaker 00

  Right, but that's, it's different people, right? And different people have different tolerances for experiences. And when someone says, I wish this didn't happen to me, it's because they can't handle it. And whereas other people might be able to handle it.

• 24:41Speaker 01

  Um, maybe, but like, look at the things that the fighter pilots, like David Fravor and-

• 24:50Speaker 00

  They don't seem to have a problem with it, like, they, they're, they're not saying, I wish this never happened to me.

• 24:53Speaker 01

  No, but they are saying that this looks pretty dangerous, I wouldn't want it to, first, I, I hope that this does, this isn't an enemy technology.

• 25:01Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 25:02Speaker 01

  They're like, if that's, if our enemies have this technology, it's done.

• 25:06Speaker 00

  Right, it's game over.

• 25:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So that's scary. And if it's not, then it's definitely something that we should take notice of, right? So if they're, that, that's what's in our skies. And there have been reports of people, there is an Australian report of pilots who have passed away because of this type of thing, like, they died and so forth.

• 25:28Speaker 00

  How so?

• 25:29Speaker 01

  So, I can't actually remember what it is, but it's a, it's a report of an Australian young guy who was, who encountered something in the sky, and he was never found again. He was just, you know, what happened, I don't know.

• 25:47Speaker 00

  So, he disappeared in the sky?

• 25:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, and there are-

• 25:51Speaker 00

  With a jet?

• 25:52Speaker 01

  I don't know if he disappeared with the jet.

• 25:54Speaker 00

  I wish you knew more about this story.

• 25:55Speaker 01

  I know, I know. Maybe someone could get it up for us and we can look at it. But it's a really famous, it's a really famous-

• 26:01Speaker 00

  Slapping away the keys.

• 26:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a really famous Australian report.

• 26:04Speaker 00

  Here it is. Uh, it's 1978, 20-year-old Australian pilot Frederick Valenteck, Valenteek?

• 26:11Speaker 01

  I think it's Valentic.

• 26:12Speaker 00

  Valentic? Took off on a routine training flight over Bass Strait. Everything seemed normal until his radio transmissions began. Valenteek reported a strange aircraft hovering above him with four bright lights, metallic surfaces moving at impossible speeds. Then came his final chilling words, it's not an aircraft. After that, he vanished completely. His Cessna was never found, despite extensive searches, and no trace of him was ever recovered. Radar had detected another object in the area but never interacted with other flights. To this day, no one knows if Valenteek crashed, got lost, or encountered something far more mysterious. Even decades later, this remains one of aviation's most baffling disappearances, and the last words of a terrified pilot still haunt those who hear them. So, there's one guy.

• 26:59Speaker 01

  I don't know, you can go meet that one, Joe. And you know what, I think that-

• 27:03Speaker 00

  Maybe he's like in a cool place right now.

• 27:06Speaker 01

  Alright.

• 27:06Speaker 00

  Just chilling, having a good time in another dimension, hanging out with these creatures. And they're explaining to him the future of the universe.

• 27:14Speaker 01

  But you know, that, the thing about what I do is I'm, I have a lot of information that people impart to me that is, that I can't actually talk about, right? And that sadly, that happens to people in-

• 27:26Speaker 00

  Because they ask you not to?

• 27:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, they say, "I need help with this," or "this is my experience," and "I don't want it public," and so forth. I mean, um-

• 27:34Speaker 00

  Even without disclosing their name?

• 27:36Speaker 01

  No, no, they, I know who they are. And so I've had people who are pilots, uh, talk to me, is this, by the way, coffee?

• 27:43Speaker 00

  This is ice cold coffee.

• 27:44Speaker 03

  How's it cold?

• 27:45Speaker 00

  What? It's ice cold.

• 27:46Speaker 03

  I've boiled it twice.

• 27:48Speaker 00

  This coffee-

• 27:48Speaker 03

  I'll try to make it again. I mean, I made it today, it's, I made it, I boiled the water twice.

• 27:52Speaker 00

  It's ice cold. It's literally ice cold, that's weird.

• 27:54Speaker 03

  Well, I'll make it again.

• 27:55Speaker 00

  Are you sure?

• 27:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, I hit the button twice, I did, I hit-

• 27:58Speaker 00

  It definitely didn't work.

• 27:59Speaker 03

  200 degrees, binged and everything.

• 28:00Speaker 00

  Must, it must be broken. I mean, it's crazy cold. It's like cold water.

• 28:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'll start it over.

• 28:06Speaker 00

  Oh, how weird.

• 28:06Speaker 03

  But here, I got more info, oh. Couple more descriptions from that pilot.

• 28:10Speaker 00

  Maybe it's aliens, they're deceiving us! They fuck with Jamie's cold water. 7:06 PM, Valenteek contacted the Melbourne air traffic controller, Steve Robey, reporting an unidentified aircraft trailing him at about 4,500 feet. For the next several minutes, he described a long, shiny metallic object with a green light. The craft appeared to be orbiting above him, who was moving at high speed and playing some sort of "game," in quotes. His engine became rough idling and coughing, his final words. "That strange aircraft is hovering on top of me again. It's hovering, and it's not an aircraft." Transmission ended with 17 seconds of metallic scraping or keying sounds, then silence.

• 28:53Speaker 01

  So yeah, so this isn't, um, so pilots and families of pilots have told me things similar to this. Not as dramatic, maybe.

• 29:03Speaker 00

  Can you get another cup too? I poured, uh, cold coffee in this.

• 29:07Speaker 01

  So, um, similar, and so I guess I just, you know, it looks pretty grim.

• 29:15Speaker 00

  That guy, that one.

• 29:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:20Speaker 01

  And there are others.

• 29:20Speaker 00

  That's like the movie Close Encounters of the Third Kind. I've always wondered, like, how much of that movie was- There's so much of that that was based on previous UFO encounters. And, and even figures, like Jacques Vallée. Jacques Vallée plays in, the French scientist in that movie is based on Jacques Vallée.

• 29:39Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 29:40Speaker 00

  And so, and there's scenes where these pilots show up that are from like World War I, you know? And they've been gone forever, and now they're back, and they haven't lost any time. I've always wondered, like, how much of this is based on stories and reports and folklore, or whatever the government knew?

• 30:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that it's, it's based on stories and things that they, like Jacques has heard and so forth. And by the way, Jacques thinks it's deceptive too, so his, you know, his idea, he spent, of course, his whole life studying this. And he wrote a book called Messengers of Deception.

• 30:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think I read that one.

• 30:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, you know, once you do-

• 30:21Speaker 00

  I read a bunch of his books.

• 30:22Speaker 01

  John Keel, John Keel, it doesn't have a good idea about these things at all. Um, thinks they're pretty nasty, doesn't want them in, you know, the Mothman prophecy?

• 30:32Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 30:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, so he wrote that, and that movie is based on his life.

• 30:38Speaker 01

  And he's, he's down on it. He's a doomer with respect to aliens.

• 30:43Speaker 00

  How so? What is his perspective?

• 30:44Speaker 01

  Okay, I'm gonna give it to you right now. Alright, okay.

• 30:47Speaker 00

  Give it to you right now.

• 30:48Speaker 01

  Alright, so he calls this, it, it reminds me of Catholicism in the sense that he has a category for it. It's called the soup, uh, basically the super spectrum, okay? And it's, it's here with us now, just like you said. It's, it's around us. But you and I can't see it, but some people do see it, and some people interact with it and have, like, it breaks into their reality. And for those people, he thinks that they're unlucky. Because all the things that happen to them, like men in black show up. He thinks things like the, the beginning of all religions is basically about someone who had an interface with a pair of being, like one of these, uh, pair of humans in the super spectrum.

• 31:32Speaker 01

  So it's kinda like an invisible reality all around us, according to John Keel. Uh, John Keel was a pal of Jacques Vallée's, uh, he's passed away. But his books are really amazing, and if you want to get an idea about the super spectrum and the phenomena, you should watch that movie of his called, uh, Mothman Prophecies. It's, it's really good.

• 31:53Speaker 00

  And so, the super spectrum?

• 31:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:55Speaker 00

  Like, what, what does he think that is?

• 31:57Speaker 01

  So he, he thinks that it's a, it's a, like a space all around us. It's been here forever. It controls us. It controls humanity. Because it sends things, like, he thinks UFOs are part of it, he thinks, uh, Virgin Mary apparitions are part of it. He thinks ghosts are part of it. So any kind of woo thing, um, is there in the super spectrum. And sometimes, some people have the ability to see what's in the super spectrum. And there, he thinks they're cursed. Now, he thinks angels are part of the super spectrum, so he doesn't make any kind of distinction between the good things in it and the bad things. He said they're all bad.

• 32:39Speaker 01

  If there's one that appears to be good, it's actually bad. So again, he started, you know, he was kinda like a Charles Fort type guy. So he started to get a lot of these, you know, these, um, events, and he studied them and everything like that. And, uh, over years, he developed a, a theory that these were nasty things. And that they were, like, even if they appeared good, and that they, they be, they were at the beginning of all religions. All religions come from the super spectrum. Um, obviously not that part about how it's like Catholicism, but, you know, religions tend to have theological categories that talk about things like the super spectrum. So what Jacques talks about in his books, it sounds very similar to, you know, his control mechanism.

• 33:24Speaker 01

  And, uh, is very similar to John Keel's idea.

• 33:28Speaker 00

  Well, it seems like, just speculating, but it seems like we're dealing with a very limited framework that we operate in, that we as human beings operate, do you wanna take this, Jamie? Do you need this? Okay. Um, that we operate in this world of the senses that we possess. Sight, sound, feel, touch, all that, you know, smell. We, we have these senses for understanding what's around us, but only those. And it's not capable of detecting everything that is reality. Everything that is the universe, everything that is from subatomic particles to whatever the fuck it is that we haven't even discovered yet. That's all around us all the time.

• 34:14Speaker 00

  And so, if there is the potential for other realms or other dimensions, and these things exist in some sort of a space where they can interact and, and traverse in between these dimensions and interact with, with us at will, whenever we can. We're kind of left in this speculation space. Where, when people have these very novel and unique experiences, like Travis Walton. And then we're supposed to go, "Okay, did that happen? It didn't happen to me, but is he telling the truth? Okay, maybe he is. If he is, well, let's see if he lies about other things." "Well, he doesn't seem to lie. He's been around a long time."

• 34:59Speaker 00

  Travis has been around for a long time telling that story, like almost 50 years now, right? Like, when was his experience?

• 35:07Speaker 01

  I thought it, yeah, a long time ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 35:10Speaker 00

  Um, you would think he would have a few other fibs.

• 35:14Speaker 01

  I agree, I agree, and he doesn't, yeah, yeah.

• 35:16Speaker 00

  If it was a lie, and I don't think it is, but if it was, that's a big lie. To have only one?

• 35:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:22Speaker 00

  Only one crazy cockamamie lie from 1970, whatever it was?

• 35:28Speaker 01

  See, you're, what you're doing is you're, this is part of their criteria for assessing these kinds of events. Okay, it's called, you know, taking time.

• 35:36Speaker 00

  Right.

• 35:36Speaker 01

  So, over time, so when a, when an anomalous event happens within, like, say, Christian culture or whatnot.

• 35:45Speaker 00

  Thank you very much, Jamie. Appreciate it. The cold is alright, but it's like, it's, it's crazy. It's cold.

• 35:53Speaker 01

  That is weird, yeah.

• 35:54Speaker 00

  Dude, something's going on. Put your finger in it, feel how cold it is. It's cold like cold water.

• 36:00Speaker 03

  I understand, I know, I know what happened.

• 36:02Speaker 00

  Oh, do you?

• 36:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 36:03Speaker 00

  What happened?

• 36:03Speaker 03

  You have to hit the start button to make it boil? I didn't hit the start button.

• 36:07Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 36:07Speaker 03

  User error.

• 36:09Speaker 00

  But it beeped, I thought you said.

• 36:10Speaker 03

  I did, it, it did. It beeped because it didn't, it was turning off.

• 36:13Speaker 00

  Okay, this is hot.

• 36:14Speaker 03

  Here we go.

• 36:17Speaker 03

  My bad.

• 36:22Speaker 00

  Quiet as the French press. Where were we?

• 36:26Speaker 01

  Uh.

• 36:27Speaker 00

  Uh, categories?

• 36:28Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah. You were basically just making a move.

• 36:31Speaker 00

  Once a month?

• 36:32Speaker 01

  A strategy. Uh, yeah, sure. Thank you.

• 36:36Speaker 00

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• 37:57Speaker 00

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• 38:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, like, looking at, like, I mean, that's my perspective on Bob Lazar. You know, Bob Lazar's been telling the exact same story forever. I've had many conversations with Bob. I've had dinner with him. I've hung out with him a few times. I've dinner with him several times. Hung out with him in the studio. He showed us that most recent documentary before it was released with Luigi, the guy who made it with him. I don't, you know, I know a lot of people that are full of shit. I mean, a lot of people that are full of shit. I've had people sit here in front of me, and then somewhere in the conversation, I'm like, oh, this person's not being honest. This is, this is some, they've got an agenda, they're pushing some, or they're pretending they know some things, because it sounds good, but they don't really know some things. I get real suspicious of people. I'm not

• 38:53Speaker 00

  suspicious of him. It's weird, you know? He's obviously incredibly intelligent and very well-studied when it comes to science, when it comes to, um, you know, whatever it is, whether it's, um, elements, particles, when, you know, he, he, he understands what he's talking about in a very deep way. And when he's explaining these experiences, when he talks about this craft and his experiences at S4, he seems to be telling the truth. And then, since then, we've, we know, first of all, that no one knew about S4 back then, but he did. He knew where it was. He knew exactly where it was. And he knew about the

• 39:36Speaker 00

  flights that take people out there. He, he had a total understanding of Los Alamos Labs. I mean, he, he went there. He knew the people that worked there. He knew how to get around the building. When George Knapp took him there, he, he knew everything about the facility, yet they claimed that he never worked there. And then they found him on the employee roster. So, he did work there.

• 40:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:00Speaker 00

  So, they lied, and they tried to cover up. Why would they lie and say that he didn't work there?

• 40:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:05Speaker 00

  Well, probably because he was involved in some shit that they wanted to keep secret.

• 40:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. That's right.

• 40:10Speaker 00

  There's a lot of weirdness to the Bob Lazar story. And then, when you see some of the footage that was released, particularly after the New York Times story of 2017, the footage that's released mirrors the way he describes this craft operating.

• 40:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:28Speaker 00

  And so, how, would he guess correctly in 1989?

• 40:33Speaker 01

  Those are all good points. So, yeah, I told you last time I was on here that Tyler, right, in my American Cosmic book, um, told me that he was the real deal. Even though I had people who, you know, Eric Davis, and, you know, telling me, no, Diana, this guy's, no, no. I believe Tyler. So, everything that you say, I agree with, yeah. I don't know. I mean...

• 40:55Speaker 00

  You're always gonna have people, when you have a fantastic story like Bob Lazar's story, you're always gonna have people that wanna say that the guy's full of shit. That there's something wrong, he's lying, it's not true, it's fake.

• 41:08Speaker 01

  But, I mean, Eric Davis would be a person who might know, right?

• 41:10Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 41:11Speaker 01

  So, he's a physicist who studies this, and even briefs Congress on, but no, so, I don't know. I, I tend to, when Tyler tells me things, and now that he, everything he said kinda has come true, I believe him, you know? I believe that is true.

• 41:30Speaker 00

  But if Bob Lazar is telling the truth, it's so disturbing, the idea that there's a group of humans that operate in our government, that have information that the general public does not have, and that they're the gatekeepers of this information, and they've determined, for whatever reason, that either it's not wise to tell people, or it wouldn't benefit them to tell people, like, whatever it is. I think it's a crime against humanity. I, I think if you're a person that knows for a fact that there's something here, other than us, that either visits us, or exists amongst us, or travels here from another dimension, I think you have an obligation to tell people.

• 42:13Speaker 01

  But what if it's not that? What if it's actually something we've created, and we don't want anybody to know about it, and Lazar happened to find out, and that's why we don't want, you know, I mean, think about it from the perspective of people who are trying to keep Americans safe. So, just to push back a bit.

• 42:30Speaker 00

  Okay, go ahead.

• 42:31Speaker 01

  You know, what if that's it?

• 42:33Speaker 00

  So, if that's the case, why would they bring a guy in to tell them, how does this work? Show us how this works. Because that was his job.

• 42:41Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 42:41Speaker 00

  They brought him in and said, tell us how this works. And like, and he was like, what are you talking about? This is ours. It has an American flag sticker on it. Like, don't you know how it works? Why are you asking me how it works? This seems kind of crazy. That's not what you do if you have super-advanced technology. What you do is you bring in people to improve it and make it better. You don't bring in people and say, how does it work?

• 43:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. Okay, wait, I have a couple of comments about that.

• 43:13Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 43:14Speaker 01

  So, when I first started, I was, I was aware that people, I wasn't aware as much as I should be, but I was aware that people in my position, you know, who were basically just doing, like, academic work on the UFO belief, the rising UFO belief, might have people come and give me disinformation.

• 43:32Speaker 00

  100%. And I, I have the same situation.

• 43:35Speaker 01

  Of course you do.

• 43:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, we have to be, that, you're talking about discernment. Like, we have to be super discerning about who's, you know, our BS meter has to, like, be really well working, or working well. Okay, so, but, the person who took me out to the desert, right, with Gary during that time, to an alleged crash site, which, you know, Jacques then goes out there, um, he basically also wants Gary to figure out this debris. And so, I'm thinking, we obviously don't know what we have here, if he's at, if, if it's legit. It could, okay, so, here are my comments about what you just told me about Lazar.

• 44:21Speaker 01

  Either they're setting up this situation where they're gonna have someone like me and Gary, who are like, they're trying to back-engineer this, right? And we're saying that publicly, um, without any kind of, like, knowledge that it could be disinfo. And then they have Lazar, who we're gonna plant, and they do this, like, with Benavits and stuff. They plant stuff for...

• 44:40Speaker 00

  Benavits?

• 44:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, you know, Benavits, um, the guy who, uh, what, he had stuff planted in his computer. Do you not know about him?

• 44:50Speaker 00

  No. What is the story?

• 44:51Speaker 01

  Oh, it's called Project Beta. Um, this is, this is a book a friend of mine wrote about, um, I can't remember, yeah, so, um...

• 44:59Speaker 00

  Oh, Paul Benavits. I've heard his name before.

• 45:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. You should read this, because this is a disinfo scam on this poor guy, who...

• 45:06Speaker 00

  So, Benavits believed that he had intercepted communications from alien spacecraft and discovered a secret underground facility called Dulce Base. Dulce? Dulce Base?

• 45:17Speaker 01

  Dulce.

• 45:18Speaker 00

  Dulce? Is that how you say it?

• 45:20Speaker 01

  I'd say Dulce, but...

• 45:21Speaker 00

  Dulce, um, a base managed by aliens in cooperation with the US government. His claims appeared in the popular press in the early 1980s. According to some sources, Benavits was the target of a government disinformation campaign that ultimately led to his psychiatric hospitalization. Author Greg Valdez proposes that Benavits was targeted for his investigation of cattle mutilations. Valdez argues the mutilations were a government testing program, looking at the after-effects of radiation from 1967's Project Gas Buggy, in which an underground atomic device was detonated just 21 miles southwest of Dulce. They were testing the cattle to avoid panicking the public.

• 46:04Speaker 01

  Okay, so this, um.

• 46:06Speaker 00

  The problem with that story is the count of mutilations.

• 46:10Speaker 01

  Well, wait a minute.

• 46:11Speaker 00

  Still go on.

• 46:11Speaker 01

  This is like completely not accurate.

• 46:13Speaker 00

  This is just a brief Wikipedia about it. There's probably way more to the story and.

• 46:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So you know Doty? Yeah, Doty. You know Doty, right? The, uh, the guy who went, they, they placed misinformation on his computer so that he believed that he was, um.

• 46:28Speaker 00

  They placed it on his computer?

• 46:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, they placed it on his computer.

• 46:31Speaker 00

  How so?

• 46:32Speaker 01

  They went into his house when he wasn't there and put it on there.

• 46:35Speaker 00

  And what did they put on his computer?

• 46:37Speaker 01

  They put on all this information about, um, a, like that he was in touch with these aliens. So they, they basically cultivated his belief that he was in touch with aliens. They did that purposefully and Doty, um, Doty's first name, oh gosh, I can't remember.

• 46:53Speaker 00

  Ed Doty?

• 46:54Speaker 01

  No, um, he's really famous within ufology because he's a misinfo guy. So, but back to.

• 47:00Speaker 00

  He's a misinfo guy, like purposefully?

• 47:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, intentionally placing misinformation out into the public about UFOs, which is a thing.

• 47:10Speaker 00

  Is he still alive?

• 47:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's still alive.

• 47:12Speaker 00

  And that's what he does for sure?

• 47:14Speaker 01

  He used to, yeah, Richard, Richard, yeah, he for sure does that. Um.

• 47:19Speaker 00

  How do you know he does that?

• 47:20Speaker 01

  What do you mean?

• 47:21Speaker 00

  What do you mean, what do you mean?

• 47:22Speaker 01

  That I'm surprised you don't know that he does this.

• 47:24Speaker 00

  Speaking, sometimes when I talk, I'm speaking for the entire public that probably doesn't know what we're talking about. And I think it's probably good that we fill them in.

• 47:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, sorry, sorry. Okay, so Richard Doty is, has come out and said, this is what he does. And I know people who know him, like the entire group in, you know, the invisible college people with Hal and they all know who he is.

• 47:45Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 47:46Speaker 01

  And, uh, Kit offered to introduce him to me, by the way, Kate Green. So, and I, and by the way, all of these people are people who work on the, used to work on the program AATIP and so forth.

• 47:58Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 47:59Speaker 01

  Uh, to study UFOs. But my point though, here in talking about this was, what if Lazar was a person like me and Gary? Who was being given information, were credible, right? He's not so credible, but like, you know, he's, he's this person that's been given information and placed out there so that, and he's just on the edge of credibility, just so, you know, he's credible, but then he's not credible so that he could be taken down if necessary. That's how they get this information out there. Now, who am I talking about? They. So what I'm trying to say is that, what I've observed is that the government isn't unified in this whole UFO thing.

• 48:41Speaker 01

  They're fighting against each other. I try to stay out of their crosshairs, frankly. What they're doing though, is that every time somebody comes out and says, you know, here are the new UFO files, I'm studying them and so forth. Then they get taken out by like counterintelligence. So it's like intelligence and counterintelligence. So that it's really confusing. The end result is total confusion. And you really have to have a, an ability, like to understand, like your discernment has to be well-developed.

• 49:12Speaker 00

  Right. So I believe that. I believe that there is disinformation and deception. I think that's a great strategy if you want to make something look ridiculous. You take truth and then you attach a bunch of fantastic ridiculous claims to that truth. And so that, it dismisses all of it, right? Cause it's all in the same category and it's all easily debunked. Like, oh, this is the same guy that also said that, so this is nonsense, right?

• 49:42Speaker 01

  That's exactly right. Uh, Tyler used to say, we're, we hide truth in a circle of confusion.

• 49:48Speaker 00

  Yeah. Which makes sense if they're trying to.

• 49:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's what they do, right? I mean, I don't know anymore, like today, like Jacques at one point, uh, many years ago, decided that the field of ufology was so confusing that he wanted to go back, Pat, before the industrial revolution, and do UFOs from a long time ago. And he wrote Wonders in the Sky, all about that stopped at like, I think it was like 1860 or something like that.

• 50:20Speaker 00

  Right.

• 50:20Speaker 01

  And so he did that and I feel like I've done that too. Like I started that way, actually, um, and I wasn't looking for UFOs. So I saw, you know, so in a sense I understand that move because.

• 50:32Speaker 00

  When you say you weren't looking for UFOs, what were you looking for?

• 50:35Speaker 01

  Oh, well, my first, the first part of my academic career was about looking at souls from purgatory and Catholic things. Like, you know, what Catholics thought about things that they experienced, like angel contact events. Um, and that's when I started to take a log of these aerial phenomena. I did not know what they were. And so historically, you can see it all over the place in the records that aren't digitized. So there are a lot of records, like people that say, oh, we had, you know, AI has everything of human, all of human knowledge. No, have they never been to an archive? An archive is a really old library. There's a bunch of stuff there that's not digitized and that's still human knowledge.

• 51:18Speaker 00

  And so what were you looking for?

• 51:20Speaker 01

  Oh, okay. So back then, this is in my book on purgatory. I was looking, I was trying to find out why purgatory was a thing for Catholics for many, many years. And then after the 1960s, people rarely, um, talked about it as much. So, by the way, I'll get a lot of hate from people about this because Catholics who do do devotions to souls in purgatory, for souls in purgatory will say, no, we still do this, Diana. I know that, but the emphasis, like Catholic churches used to have a special place in the church for these devotions. They, we don't have that here. And so I wanted to know what happened. And so what I did was I spent 10 years going through records and archives all over the place.

• 52:04Speaker 01

  And, uh, and I, I found an answer to that. But I also found a bunch of aerial phenomena that people didn't know, you know, they were like looking up the sky too, back then. And when they saw something in the sky, they couldn't like place, well, what is this? They'd interpret it as like a soul from purgatory. You know, we need to pray that soul back into purgatory because, you know, sometimes these things would harass people. They'd come down like orbs and harass people and they just assumed it was like a bad spirit or something like that.

• 52:33Speaker 00

  Right.

• 52:34Speaker 01

  So I took all of this down because I thought it was really strange and I didn't, I didn't want to put it in my book. Um, but I wanted to do something with it at some point. Uh, so when I, I had not, I didn't believe in UFOs. I had never thought about UFOs. But I showed the log to a friend after my purgatory book was published. And he said, oh, this looks like Steven Spielberg films. And I thought he was crazy. So that's how I started studying UFOs.

• 52:58Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 52:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's how I got into it. So I was already doing that. Jacques was one of the first people I actually wrote a hard letter to, sent it through the mail to him. And, uh, that's how I met him.

• 53:10Speaker 00

  So Jacques's books, what, what is interesting is these old stories. Cause the old stories, they go back to 1700s and 1800s. They mirror these UFO encounters.

• 53:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, that's right. That's what my work did. Yeah.

• 53:26Speaker 00

  It's this very similar pattern, which is also strange because

• 53:31Speaker 00

  if you think about human beings, the exponential increase in technological ability that we have just from the 1800s to today, far superior technology. But wouldn't you assume that UFOs would also have this exponential increase in their technological ability?

• 53:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, definitely.

• 53:53Speaker 00

  But yet the stories seem very similar, which is weird, right? Cause if it's the same kind of craft and the same kind of experiences and the same kind of, like, wouldn't they get better at it? Like, isn't there, don't they have the same ability to improve?

• 54:10Speaker 01

  They might be better at it. They might be better at it. We just are not good at ascertaining if they have gotten better at it. But, so what if, and this is kind of what I've been exploring recently. What if the, you know, our growth in technology is pretty amazing? What if the only way they can actually interface with us in any super meaningful way that's not creepy, right? What if it's through AI? What if that, so if religion was a way for us to communicate with non-human intelligences that kind of evolved in different places, right? It's like a technology itself, right? Religion becomes these ways. You know, if you look around and you see, I noticed that you had some cool Buddhist statues out there.

• 54:56Speaker 01

  All right. So if you look around at religion, what is it that people in religion do? A lot of them pray in certain ways. Well, like, why are they doing that? What is prayer anyway? Um, some of the, uh, so you can see that there's something that they're trying to do. They're trying to interact, contact. There's like a contact with these. And so what if AI all of a sudden is a different form of contact? Um, and I'll give you a reason why I think this way or that I'm speculating about it. Um, when I started to ask the people who should know, like Lou Elizondo and, you know, the, and before that Tyler and, you know, um, Hal Puthoff and, uh, people like that.

• 55:38Speaker 01

  Tell me what best, if you were to describe what it is we're dealing with, what best is the description? And they would always point me in the direction of science fiction. And they would say, read this, read that. And I was like, science fiction, okay. And I'd read it and it would inevitably point to like a technology that helps interface humans with it. So that it's not us interfacing because perhaps, remember you talked about those faculties? That, you know, human beings have these faculties for understanding reality, but we can't understand reality in its full reality-ness, right? We can't do that because we're constrained by the ways in which we perceive things. Those are the perceptual faculties.

• 56:19Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 56:19Speaker 01

  Um, what if AI becomes a perceptual faculty for us? And we're able then to, you know, interact with it. So perhaps it has evolved and it's helped us evolve too.

• 56:32Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 56:33Speaker 01

  So that's what I'm trying to say. That was a long answer to, to your comment.

• 56:36Speaker 00

  So perhaps AI is a bridge for helping us interact with these things?

• 56:42Speaker 01

  Communicate.

• 56:44Speaker 00

  Okay. Um, so as far as what the government knows and then deception.

• 56:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:52Speaker 00

  Why, why do you think that they don't disclose all the information?

• 57:04Speaker 01

  My personal opinion?

• 57:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 57:07Speaker 01

  Okay, so this is nothing that I can point to, of course I can't. You know, there's no source for it. My personal opinion is because this is above government. It's not theirs to disclose. The government can't disclose something that's not theirs to disclose.

• 57:25Speaker 00

  And what do you mean by that?

• 57:26Speaker 01

  I mean that there's probably a group of people that have this information or have parts of the information. I don't even know if one person has the whole story. It's super compartmentalized. But my intuition is that it's, well, we know that there are parts of it that are so highly classified, right? We know that. And so, yeah, it's like, you know, they call presidents short timers and so forth. They're not read in, quote unquote, to the program.

• 58:02Speaker 00

  Right.

• 58:03Speaker 01

  So I would, what if it's like, it's been around for a long time and the people who know about it have been around for a long time too? What if that's the case? So after I, after I published American Cosmic in 2019, I met other people. So, you know, I met people who indicated to me that they just basically wanted me to not write anything else about this stuff. They just were like, why don't you just focus on what you, you know, your Catholic stuff? And just like, don't, don't do this.

• 58:35Speaker 00

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• 59:31Speaker 01

  And

• 59:31Speaker 00

  Who did that?

• 59:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, some people that I had met. So they, they're people that are associated with the government in the fact that they're part of intelligence communities. And, you know, so I was interested in what they had to say. And to me, what, they didn't tell me anything, Joe. So I'm not going to tell any secrets or anything, that I don't have them. But they, they indicated to me that, yeah, this is, this is like, nobody's going to know about this. So people like, yeah, so that's, that's what I, that happened after American Cosmic. Part of that went into encounters, but not

• 1:00:15Speaker 00

  So they, what, how did they just express this to you? That they don't think that you should be talking about this?

• 1:00:22Speaker 01

  Well, they, they didn't express it that way. They just said that my time would be better spent looking into other aspects of religion.

• 1:00:33Speaker 00

  Did you say why?

• 1:00:34Speaker 01

  Of course, I wanted to know.

• 1:00:35Speaker 00

  And what did they say to that?

• 1:00:38Speaker 01

  Well, they didn't really say, they didn't really answer that question. But I guess you could say that my experience with them was my answer. My experience with them was that this was something that people weren't going to know about and that these secrets wouldn't be told.

• 1:00:59Speaker 00

  So you, like, they're essentially saying to you, you're wasting your time?

• 1:01:04Speaker 01

  Pretty much, yeah.

• 1:01:05Speaker 00

  We're not going to tell anybody? You're not going to get any more information? What's out there is out there and that's it?

• 1:01:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:01:12Speaker 00

  Hmm. What's your opinion, like, when, you know, one of the things, I assume you saw the Age of Disclosure documentary?

• 1:01:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, definitely.

• 1:01:22Speaker 00

  One of the things that I thought was really interesting and made sense in the Age of Disclosure was this thought that if there are these hidden programs, they have essentially misappropriated funds and lied to Congress in order to fund these things. And all these things are huge crimes. And if they don't have amnesty, they're never going to disclose. This is like Lou Elizondo talked about, or all these different people talked about. They said like, the only way you're ever going to get this information is by giving some sort of mass amnesty to all these people that were involved in these programs.

• 1:02:05Speaker 00

  So that they'd never have to worry about being prosecuted. My problem with that is when I hear something like that and you're talking about misappropriation of funds, you're talking about lying to Congress, you're talking about enormous amounts of money that are involved in these programs. Where did that money go? And did that money all go to those programs? Or all those really ethical people involved? Or did a bunch of people get rich bullshitting about this stuff? And is that why they're calling for amnesty? So that they don't have to worry about being prosecuted for stealing money? And that's a lot of this, you know, obfuscating, all this confusion, a lot of this misinformation is because there's a lot of people that are in deep shit if this gets disclosed.

• 1:02:49Speaker 01

  So basically, they're in deep shit if they, if the thing that gets disclosed is that they've been stealing money?

• 1:02:56Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, listen, if you have complete, total autonomy, you get an enormous amount of money and you're working on these programs, you know, no one knows where this money's going. And we have a problem with that already, right? Like, we have a problem with the Pentagon never passes budgets. Where'd the money go? Hmm, hmm. You know, that's like, part of the issue. What is this, Jamie? Uh, long hidden UFO information at the center of Trump push to free former officials. Former employees can now share information with Arrow or the Purse Task Force without fear of violating agreements. So this is new?

• 1:03:40Speaker 03

  Yes, it's last week.

• 1:03:41Speaker 00

  Oh, interesting.

• 1:03:43Speaker 03

  So no one's officially come forward as far as

• 1:03:45Speaker 00

  Okay, that's, but look how it says that there? Scroll back up. It says without violating agreements. That's not the same thing I'm talking about.

• 1:03:54Speaker 03

  It's not exactly, but this, they have NDAs and it's

• 1:03:57Speaker 00

  Right, that's another issue. But what that doesn't, it doesn't exonerate them from lying to Congress or misappropriating, misappropriating funds. That's part of the problem, is that if they have these programs that are hidden and there's no congressional oversight, there's no, they don't have to be audited. If, in all these, in any government program that has no oversight, you're going to have waste and you're probably going to have fraud. And you're probably going to have a bunch of people that are, you know, essentially beyond reproach. They have so much power and no oversight at all.

• 1:04:38Speaker 00

  Like, put a little bit over here, put a little bit over there, a little bit of this, a little bit of that. Next thing you know, these people are wealthy for some reason that you can't explain. Like, look what's going on with Congress, with insider trading, where people that are making $170,000 a year are worth hundreds of millions of dollars and no one can explain why.

• 1:04:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:04:58Speaker 00

  You've got, you have to imagine that these people would also be tempted to do that if they were involved in these programs. So even if these programs are real, let's say it, let's say the research, the back engineering research costs a billion dollars. Make it say it costs $3 billion. Where's that money going? Where's it all going? Where'd it go? You know, it's part of the problem with having no oversight.

• 1:05:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:24Speaker 00

  No auditing, no oversight, and a bunch of people that have complete ability to hide anything they're doing, including what they do with the money.

• 1:05:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:05:37Speaker 00

  And so if they've been doing that for decades, who knows how much fraud is involved?

• 1:05:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:45Speaker 00

  You have to assume, like, these are human beings. And human beings, if they have that level of power and that level of secrecy?

• 1:05:56Speaker 00

  And no oversight at all? And also, they're working with defense contractors, they're working like, you know, offshore accounts, there's a lot of weird shit goes on.

• 1:06:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah, it could be that. Do you think it is?

• 1:06:10Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:06:11Speaker 01

  Really?

• 1:06:11Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:06:12Speaker 01

  You think it's just that? Okay, alright.

• 1:06:14Speaker 00

  I think that's a major factor in this whole thing.

• 1:06:17Speaker 01

  Alright, so...

• 1:06:19Speaker 00

  I think that's the, that's the, I think that is probably the reason why you have these calls for amnesty.

• 1:06:27Speaker 00

  Because if you, if you're talking about amnesty, like amnesty for what? Do you guys do something? What'd you do? Misappropriation of funds, lying to Congress. Okay. So you don't want to be in trouble for misappropriating money, and you don't want to be in trouble for lying to Congress. So what if that, does that include all the fraud that potentially could have taken place? And I'm not accusing anyone of fraud. I don't, I don't know anything. This is pure tin foil hat, let's just talk shit. That's all this is.

• 1:06:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So you think it's just basically a big, like, almost like a Ponzi scheme or something?

• 1:06:57Speaker 00

  I think that has to be an aspect of it, because that's an aspect of it in almost all aspects of government.

• 1:07:03Speaker 01

  I hear what you're saying. I guess, uh...

• 1:07:06Speaker 00

  Just think of the problem that was exposed with Doge, with the NGOs.

• 1:07:10Speaker 01

  Right, right, yeah.

• 1:07:11Speaker 00

  Where you find out that there's literally billions of dollars gets distributed and there's no record of it. There's no receipts. Bottom of that article here. Uh, during the same event, former Air Force Intelligence Officer Grush renewed his allegations that the secret UAP programs had operated outside normal congressional oversight, calling it a real fraud, waste, and abuse issue. There it is. And claiming his investigation uncovered slush funds to the tune of billions of dollars per annum for these activities. The Pentagon has disputed Grush's central claims, and Arrow has said its investigations found no evidence, no verified evidence of extraterrestrial technology or credible evidence that the government has secretly recovered or reverse engineered craft of non-human origin.

• 1:07:57Speaker 00

  But yet, there, he has talked about programs that he has been read in on that are back engineering programs.

• 1:08:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I know, so like, is it, is it just a big slush fund? Yeah, to call it a slush fund, I think is really an interesting, you know, term. Because that indicates that, that they're not doing anything, right?

• 1:08:18Speaker 00

  Doesn't necessarily. It could indicate that they are doing something, but they're also profiting wildly off of this something that they're doing because they don't have any oversight. Which is when you get creepy people that have incredible power like that, that's just normal. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. What's more absolute power than you're, you have massive amounts of money, a blank check, and you're also, you're in the fucking super secret, top secret group.

• 1:08:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:49Speaker 00

  You're in the club of the people that know, the wink and the nod, and you're going into these fucking vaults in the middle of the mountain, and you're looking at an alien spacecraft, and you've got bodies that are in formaldehyde or whatever the fuck they're doing with them. You know, you would think those guys could do whatever the fuck they want.

• 1:09:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's right.

• 1:09:07Speaker 00

  They're humans.

• 1:09:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:09:08Speaker 00

  And they're men.

• 1:09:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:09:10Speaker 00

  They're, they're men that are probably very ambitious and wealthy.

• 1:09:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:09:14Speaker 00

  And they want to be more wealthy, and they got all this money coming in, and they're working on these programs, and then they can occasionally show you some stuff. Look, this is what we've discovered, this is what we've figured out, this is what we can apply to military technology.

• 1:09:30Speaker 01

  Okay, so, maybe. Okay, so maybe that's it.

• 1:09:33Speaker 00

  Pure speculation.

• 1:09:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:09:35Speaker 00

  Right? No accusations. I'm just saying, if you had to look at it from the least charitable perspective, you have to say that's probably an aspect of what we're dealing with. And that seemed to me, when I watched Age of Disclosure from a cynical perspective, I'm like, what is this, what is this request for amnesty? What's, what's the, amnesty's a weird thing to say, you know? Like, if you're, people get suspicious when you have amnesty. Why do you want amnesty?

• 1:10:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:03Speaker 00

  You're worried about, like, are they really gonna prosecute people that have misappropriated funds and lied to Congress because they have alien spacecrafts? Is that really what Congress is gonna do now? They're gonna go after these people and say, "Look, I know you finally did tell us that we have been visited, that we have these downed alien crafts, but we're gonna put you in jail because you didn't tell us before, and because you lied to Congress and you use these funds to back engineer these crafts."

• 1:10:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:10:29Speaker 00

  Does that really make sense that they would put these people in jail for these top secret government programs?

• 1:10:35Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 1:10:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:10:37Speaker 01

  I agree. Um...

• 1:10:39Speaker 00

  I just think if you just factor in people, factor in people and blank checks, I always say, someone's, it's not like these are the most benign altruistic people that they're like, they're, they're super charitable and they only want to do the right thing for humanity, and they're, they're very comfortable with their meager government salary.

• 1:11:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:11:00Speaker 00

  Eh, probably not, right?

• 1:11:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:11:04Speaker 00

  Probably, when you think about human nature and people, when they have access to money, especially that kind of money, that's crazy money.

• 1:11:11Speaker 01

  Alright, so, if I can offer my, like, speculation, totally speculative.

• 1:11:16Speaker 00

  Totally.

• 1:11:17Speaker 01

  Okay?

• 1:11:17Speaker 00

  I like, I like this kind of talk.

• 1:11:18Speaker 01

  Okay, okay. So, remember that I start out not caring about UFOs at all. Not believing nothing like that.

• 1:11:26Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:11:26Speaker 01

  Just kind of doing my boring Catholic scholarship stuff, right? Well, yeah, I didn't think so, but you know, geeky stuff.

• 1:11:33Speaker 00

  Right, right.

• 1:11:33Speaker 01

  Okay? Not interested in that scene. All of a sudden become, realize that there's this historical continuity, right, in the records.

• 1:11:43Speaker 00

  And there's physical evidence.

• 1:11:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, there's physical evidence.

• 1:11:46Speaker 00

  Which is important for people to know, that maybe if they've never heard this subject before, and this is the first podcast they've listened to, when we're talking about Gary Nolan and some of the things they've found at these crash sites, we're talking about alloys that you can't make here.

• 1:12:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:00Speaker 00

  There, there's something about them where they're layered at an atomic level. It's, there's some weird shit to them.

• 1:12:07Speaker 01

  That's right. And so, I try to keep myself autonomous from the ufology narrative, either proposed by the government. By the way, a lot of people are, like, it's government sponsored. There's a lot of government sponsored stuff out there that you're getting. None of my stuff is government sponsored. Like, I did this totally autonomously, on my own, still do, completely, you know, I don't have a publicist, you know, I'm not like, out there doing it like that. Um, that said, I've met a lot of people, and I've seen a lot of things now since 2012 about the topic. And so, if I were to speculate about it, and let me just describe some of the things

• 1:12:49Speaker 01

  that, that come into my brain every once in a while when I'm thinking about it, I'm like, okay. Um, you know how Eric Weinstein talks about, like, he would know the smart people, he would know the physicists who would be on this case, right? He would know these guys because he knows physics, he's super intelligent, you know? Um, but I don't think he does know them. And part of the reason I say that is because, this is in 2014 or so, so a long time ago, um, when I'm, you know, when you're doing something for so long, and you're in this community of people, and you, you can't make stuff up. Like, stuff happens, you're like, that really happened.

• 1:13:30Speaker 01

  And one of the things that happened was that I got to see that there were some, you know, laboratories associated with the government that people couldn't get into, you know, it was like, you couldn't go to those. And the people that worked there were the best of the best, like, the, the laser people, the people who knew lasers and who, you know, they were better than anybody at Yale. They were better than anybody at Harvard or, or Stanford or anything like that. They were the best. Um, through knowing me, Gary got to go there, so I have a witness, you know? And so, because they were cultivating him, they were trying to figure out if he could actually help with, with figuring out what this was.

• 1:14:09Speaker 01

  So, those things are things that I noted, and I, you know, kept in my file in my brain, right? Okay, well, that's weird. Uh, there, I think about people like Harold Malgram, right? So, you know, he had been a, um, he's a person who is, uh, was an official to, advisor to a couple different presidents in the capacity of military, so super high level clearance and everything like that. He had been recruited, he was a physicist at Cornell. He'd been recruited when he was 27. So this happens, so people do get taken into these, I don't know what you'd call them, programs or whatnot,

• 1:14:51Speaker 01

  and they do work, and they have these clearances, and they're hidden, just like, um... They're hidden. Sometimes they're given fake job titles and so forth, so people wouldn't think. I see people online now saying, "Oh, that person doesn't have that clearance because they had this job." How do you know? Like, seriously, how do you know that? Because the government is really good at hiding these kinds of things. So, over the years, that was a long time ago, when this happened to me, 2014, I started to form an idea, you know, and it wasn't just that, it was other types of things that I learned, that there's something going on, for sure, and it is what they're saying, but maybe it's not, I don't

• 1:15:33Speaker 01

  know what they're reverse-engineering, if it's anomalous, you know, from another planet or what it is. I do know that they're doing something, and they've been doing it, and they're probably going to continue to do it, and that I don't think they're going to share.

• 1:15:52Speaker 00

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• 1:18:01Speaker 00

  Just go to thefarmersdog.com/rogan. This offer is for new customers only. Yeah, and why would they, especially if it affects national defense?

• 1:18:13Speaker 01

  And so, yeah, and so, part of what's happening now, you know, with rich people getting into this and trying to get the people in the program to come out, because that's what that looks like when David Grush talks about that, I'm thinking, they're just trying to get these people in the program to come out, and to, you know, so they can, they can get the technology, right? And that's not, I don't think that's going to happen. I don't think that's going to happen.

• 1:18:35Speaker 00

  So, what do you think happens? Do you think that they find very talented physicists that are in universities, and they have these outreach programs where they look for these people that are very talented, and they recruit them very early on?

• 1:18:51Speaker 01

  I think so. I think that they get recruited really young. 27 is probably old to get recruited.

• 1:18:58Speaker 00

  Which probably makes sense, get them as early as possible-

• 1:19:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, and get them into the program.

• 1:19:03Speaker 00

  Before they get involved in any sort of commercial venture-

• 1:19:07Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:19:08Speaker 00

  Or any other company.

• 1:19:09Speaker 01

  So, in my second book that I've written about it called Encounters, there's a chapter called "The Children of the Invisibles," where I talk about this potential speculative group, and it's total speculation.

• 1:19:26Speaker 00

  Have you heard Eric Weinstein's take on, there's a particular upstate university, upstate New York university, that has a completely overqualified physics department that's also attached to a hedge fund that does Bernie Madoff-type numbers that don't make any sense at all?

• 1:19:44Speaker 01

  No, I didn't, I haven't seen that one.

• 1:19:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's, he talks about it, and this one particular university, he is keen on, this might be something, because it's like, it doesn't make any sense that these insanely talented physicists are all in this one place, and no real research comes out of it, no real, nothing gets done, but yet, they're also attached to this hedge fund that does these insane numbers that don't make any sense at all, which is a great way to just funnel money through and keep these programs running that are completely top-secret, and these people aren't publishing, they don't have any things, these insanely talented physicists are not really getting anything done.

• 1:20:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, they get fired at my university if they weren't publishing.

• 1:20:27Speaker 00

  Right, right. There's something, there's something weird about it, he says.

• 1:20:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:31Speaker 00

  And he keeps pointing to this, do you remember that? What they- Stony Brook and Renaissance Technologies is the- Yes, that's it. He's, he's like, if there's something there, if there's a "there" there, that's where it's at. Yeah, which makes sense, like, if you had some big-time program, like, I know a guy who was a professor, so he was teaching at a university, I probably shouldn't say what he's teaching, he was also a CIA operative, so he would literally be involved in fucking gunfights, and then, a week later, he would be, you know, they

• 1:21:13Speaker 00

  would extract, they'd take people, they'd do all this crazy CIA, super-secret operative shit, a week later, he's teaching university courses.

• 1:21:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, like Indiana Jones on steroids. Like, this guy was, like, really doing that, which is like, whoa, okay. So, if you have this university, where you have these people that are teaching these classes, like, and they're probably looking for super-talented physicists that are coming up to recruit into these programs, but what they're doing as far as their, you know, air quotes, "research" that's public, is nonsense. And what they're, what they're really doing is working on something, probably some sort of very novel propulsion system. And that's what Weinstein thinks. And he thinks that a lot of this stuff that people are seeing in the sky is probably ours.

• 1:22:10Speaker 01

  So, that's right. So, say it's ours, and say he's right. Okay, so, but I guess my point is, are you, you know, then shouldn't that be okay? Shouldn't we be okay with that? Because isn't, aren't they, aren't we Americans? Aren't they, like, helping us?

• 1:22:30Speaker 00

  Well, if that's the case, yes. Certainly, we don't want-

• 1:22:33Speaker 01

  Why would we try to get them to come out and, you know, and like, force them out?

• 1:22:37Speaker 00

  Well, we certainly don't want that information to get to China or Russia. If there is some sort of a race to develop a novel propulsion system, like, who wasn't, Jamie, that was in here that was saying that one of the uses for this technology would be instantaneous delivery systems of nuclear weapons? So, you know, we're talking about these propulsion systems that essentially, they're folding space, folding space and time, where they can, instead of going from point A to point B, which is like, you know, 1,000 light-years, instead of doing it in however much time it would take to travel that through, even if you're going the speed of light, you go instantaneously, because

• 1:23:21Speaker 00

  you're essentially folding space and time and just appearing in this new place. Well, you could do that with a bomb. And so, instead of like a missile having to fly to Beijing or Moscow, it instantaneously arrives and detonates. And that this was one of the proposed uses of this technology, which is fucking terrifying.

• 1:23:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:44Speaker 00

  That these knuckleheads are taking this incredibly potent technology that these extraterrestrials have used to get here from another planet, and we were like, wouldn't that be a dope way to deliver a bomb?

• 1:23:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:58Speaker 00

  And then they're working on that.

• 1:23:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:00Speaker 00

  But it's also, isn't it their responsibility to do that? Because if China figures out how to do that, or Russia figures out how to do that, or Iran figures out how to do that, you've got a real problem.

• 1:24:12Speaker 01

  So, this was what, remember you asked me those people that I met, like, after American Cosmic gets published? All right, so, this is pretty much the line they gave me, was that, Diana, it's best to talk about this stuff about morality and, you know, Christian stuff and so forth, because, look, what we're doing is we're keeping us safe in the United States, and do you really want a non-allied to have, you know, an enemy to have this technology? I'm like, whoa, no, of course not, you know?

• 1:24:43Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:24:44Speaker 01

  I mean, so, yeah, what can you say to an argument like that, other than, well, yeah, that would be terrible?

• 1:24:47Speaker 00

  Well, if I believe them, and if they're being, if it's true, and they're just looking out for the interest of America, 100%, I'm with them, I get it, I understand. I mean, I don't know.

• 1:24:58Speaker 01

  I know, that's the problem, is that we just don't know.

• 1:25:00Speaker 00

  I'm never going to point fingers and go, "Fuck those guys, they need to tell us everything." The problem is, you're telling everybody in the world everything, then. You're telling China everything, you're telling Russia everything.

• 1:25:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, that's right.

• 1:25:10Speaker 00

  I get it, and I get that that's why, if, say, the Roswell crash of 1947, if that is legit, and if they really did fly it out to Wright Air Force Base in, you know, two separate planes, just in case one of them crashed, if that's really the case, and the lore is that Truman met them there, and that they disclosed that they have this craft, and they have this material, you have so many different people that were at that crash site that have very similar stories.

• 1:25:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:38Speaker 00

  And then you also have this, you know, very, shortly after that, you have technologies emerge.

• 1:25:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:47Speaker 00

  You have fiber optics, transistors, a lot of, and weird shit that's attached to them, in terms of like, the providence of like, how those technologies were evolved and developed. There's some sketchy shit involved in that, and the allegation is that this is something that's been reverse-engineered.

• 1:26:05Speaker 00

  And then, okay, well, you don't want that getting to someone else.

• 1:26:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:09Speaker 00

  Right?

• 1:26:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:09Speaker 00

  If we are involved in conflicts with other nations, and we most certainly are, why would, you gotta keep that stuff secret. So I get that argument as well. And if so, if extraterrestrial technology is real, and that we do have crafts, and saying extraterrestrial is just a placeholder word for whatever it is, interdimensional, whatever it is, some super advanced, non-human intelligence-created technology, if it does exist, yeah, I would say, from a national security perspective, you've gotta keep that under wraps, especially if we don't truly understand it. If we don't truly understand it, and we're not really capable of making it. Yeah.

• 1:26:52Speaker 00

  I mean, the way Lazar describes the craft itself, it was like it was 3D-printed. Well, there was no 3D-printing in 1989, right?

• 1:26:59Speaker 01

  That we know of.

• 1:27:00Speaker 00

  Right, that we know of, but there is now. But that's the thing, is this "that we know of." There's only so far you can go with that, that line of thinking. Is, when you go back far enough, it doesn't work. So like, you go back to 1947. 1947, you're dealing with propeller planes. Okay, propeller planes, and then also novel propulsion systems that can instantaneously travel from one place to another, you know, they can go like what happened with the Tic-Tac,

• 1:27:36Speaker 00

  where they have it on radar, going from 50,000 feet down to sea level in less than a second. So, that's technology that we had in 2004? That doesn't seem likely, right? And it might be the case, but then you go far enough back to like, um, like the, what was the guy's name? Kenneth Arnold?

• 1:28:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:05Speaker 00

  Those sightings, which was what?

• 1:28:07Speaker 01

  Forty-seven.

• 1:28:08Speaker 00

  Forty-seven?

• 1:28:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:09Speaker 00

  Okay, well, that's, there's no way.

• 1:28:11Speaker 01

  Like, a couple months, like, after Roswell, before Roswell, I can't remember.

• 1:28:15Speaker 00

  So that's, there's no way. We didn't have that technology then. There's no way they would have such superior, advanced technology that our fighter jets look like toys. They just whiz past them.

• 1:28:28Speaker 01

  Well, I hear that, but I don't know if you've seen the images of Kenneth Arnold's plane, but it looks like that German fighter plane, so it looks exactly like that. Maybe we reverse engineered that and had it. I don't know. I'm just saying that there's such a similarity.

• 1:28:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, but Kenneth Arnold's plane was only capable of going like, how fast? It wasn't that fast. And this thing, these crafts were going way faster. Yeah, this is what he said he saw. Like, he's got a fucking propeller plane.

• 1:28:54Speaker 03

  I did just look up, the first turbojet-engine plane was 1941.

• 1:28:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:28:59Speaker 00

  Whoa.

• 1:29:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:29:01Speaker 00

  Were they using that for fighter jets back then?

• 1:29:03Speaker 03

  1947 was, there's them flying around World War II.

• 1:29:07Speaker 00

  Uh, in 47, they had fighter jets that had, um, propeller turbojet. Yeah, but a turbojet is a propeller.

• 1:29:16Speaker 03

  Uh, here's the...

• 1:29:18Speaker 00

  Like, if you fly, I've flown in turbojet-propeller planes before, and they're pretty dope.

• 1:29:24Speaker 03

  Those are the pictures coming up.

• 1:29:25Speaker 00

  Oh, okay, so that does look like a jet engine.

• 1:29:28Speaker 03

  It's definitely something different.

• 1:29:30Speaker 00

  Right, was that, what did the planes look like back then? So, pull up a fighter jet from 1947. See, those are fucking propellers.

• 1:29:38Speaker 01

  Well, wait, the thing, it was a, it was a specific plane that looked exactly like what he saw. It was a German plane.

• 1:29:45Speaker 00

  Well, that one that Jamie just pulled up is pretty crazy, because it's circular.

• 1:29:48Speaker 01

  No, I know, but the other ones looked, I mean, literally exactly, they were called, uh, they, uh, wing planes, because they, they looked like wings, basically.

• 1:29:58Speaker 00

  I understand, but even that, those right there, those are still propeller planes. That is what Kenneth Arnold says he saw. That's totally different.

• 1:30:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:07Speaker 00

  Like, whatever the fuck that is, is crazy. And he saw that thing skipping across the sky.

• 1:30:12Speaker 01

  Okay, wait a minute, Jamie, if you can, keep going and looking for it.

• 1:30:16Speaker 00

  The idea that our best shit...

• 1:30:17Speaker 01

  It's HO something.

• 1:30:19Speaker 00

  Okay, the idea that our best shit is propeller planes, but yet we also have these things with no visible means of propulsion, that are all flying at 1,000 miles an hour, or whatever it was, several thousand miles an hour?

• 1:30:32Speaker 03

  Couldn't have been quiet either, I think.

• 1:30:33Speaker 00

  Right. Yeah, it's just weird. It's, if you go back far enough, it doesn't make sense that there's superior technology that's not being utilized ubiquitously across the entire military.

• 1:30:48Speaker 01

  Well, I think that most likely, if they, they have something that they want, okay, so, this is, again, speculation, all right?

• 1:30:54Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:30:55Speaker 01

  I don't know, I entertain the idea...

• 1:30:56Speaker 00

  This is 80 years ago.

• 1:30:57Speaker 01

  No, I know that. I entertain the possibility that they had some pretty amazing stuff.

• 1:31:02Speaker 00

  I don't.

• 1:31:03Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:31:03Speaker 00

  I don't, I just don't think that's possible.

• 1:31:05Speaker 01

  And that we still have it, and that's what...

• 1:31:07Speaker 00

  Maybe today. I would say in 2026, 80 years later, with all the technological advancement, maybe there's some crazy shit that they have today, and I bet there is. Like, look at this thing.

• 1:31:16Speaker 03

  This is a German bomber from World War II.

• 1:31:18Speaker 01

  There, that is, yeah.

• 1:31:19Speaker 00

  Whoa!

• 1:31:20Speaker 01

  That's what I'm saying. All right, you gotta believe me.

• 1:31:22Speaker 00

  Is that real? But that's just a drawing.

• 1:31:24Speaker 01

  Jamie, you're a witness, no, no, that's not...

• 1:31:26Speaker 00

  But that's not, is that a photograph?

• 1:31:28Speaker 01

  No, they have a photograph of those, I am not kidding you, okay?

• 1:31:31Speaker 03

  I was trying to just start with that, and I'll keep going.

• 1:31:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. So, look at that upper-left-hand corner, it's a secret Nazi UFO.

• 1:31:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:37Speaker 00

  But are these photographs?

• 1:31:39Speaker 01

  Yes, they're photographs.

• 1:31:40Speaker 00

  That's a photograph.

• 1:31:41Speaker 03

  And it could be AI, but it's...

• 1:31:42Speaker 01

  No, it's not.

• 1:31:43Speaker 03

  I'm just, I'm just to be, uh...

• 1:31:44Speaker 00

  Okay, well, what does it say up there? It says, uh, "Horton Ho 229, a German prototype."

• 1:31:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:51Speaker 00

  Plane from 1945.

• 1:31:53Speaker 01

  So, literally, this, see, I'm telling you, Joe, this looks exactly like Arnold's, uh...

• 1:31:59Speaker 00

  It does.

• 1:32:00Speaker 01

  UFO.

• 1:32:00Speaker 00

  It really does.

• 1:32:01Speaker 01

  Okay, thank you, thank you.

• 1:32:02Speaker 00

  A jet-powered, flying wingcraft. That literally looks exactly like it.

• 1:32:06Speaker 01

  So if I'm right about that, then you should, like, listen to my speculations.

• 1:32:10Speaker 00

  Right, but how fast did this go?

• 1:32:12Speaker 01

  All right.

• 1:32:13Speaker 03

  Oh, I'll see.

• 1:32:15Speaker 00

  That's pretty dope.

• 1:32:15Speaker 03

  Someone could have been pushing it to the limit.

• 1:32:17Speaker 00

  I can't believe they had something like that.

• 1:32:19Speaker 01

  You know, he...

• 1:32:19Speaker 00

  How are the Germans so fucking advanced?

• 1:32:21Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:32:22Speaker 00

  And so evil at the same time? Like, what the hell?

• 1:32:26Speaker 00

  Okay, designed, where, where is it?

• 1:32:31Speaker 03

  560 miles an hour?

• 1:32:33Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:32:34Speaker 03

  600 miles an hour.

• 1:32:35Speaker 00

  And how fast was Kenneth Arnold's craft able to go? 621 miles an hour? Wow.

• 1:32:42Speaker 01

  So, you know, he saw these in formation, so we were most likely doing something with those.

• 1:32:47Speaker 00

  We?

• 1:32:48Speaker 01

  What, the United States?

• 1:32:49Speaker 00

  The United States, so you think that we had acquired that technology?

• 1:32:53Speaker 01

  We did, we, we acquired it, we were utilizing it.

• 1:32:55Speaker 00

  Right, so, Operation Paperclip, we brought over a bunch of these Nazi scientists, and so you think that what he saw was these Nazi crafts?

• 1:33:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, so...

• 1:33:05Speaker 00

  That they had built?

• 1:33:07Speaker 01

  Yes, I think so, but that doesn't take out a lot of weirdness about it, because he also had a lot of very strange anomalous experiences, Men in Black experiences, paranormal experiences.

• 1:33:18Speaker 00

  Kenneth Arnold did?

• 1:33:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:19Speaker 00

  Really?

• 1:33:20Speaker 01

  So, and, yeah, and to him, he interpreted this as being religious.

• 1:33:24Speaker 00

  Is there a video of that German thing flying?

• 1:33:27Speaker 03

  I'm also just looking at, the first comment says, "It should be noted, this is a full-scale mock-up made for radar testing by North of Brumman for a Net Geo documentary, not the actual HO 229." That picture I put up.

• 1:33:37Speaker 00

  Oh, interesting. Is there any actual documented photographs of the HO 229?

• 1:33:44Speaker 03

  Um, that's why I'm gonna go with, if there was only three of them, and they weren't ours, maybe...

• 1:33:50Speaker 00

  So, we know that jets existed in 41, and so, and the Nazis had really advanced technology in terms of automobiles, in terms of engineering, rocketry, they were way more advanced than us, which is why we took all those Nazi scientists

• 1:34:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:06Speaker 00

  from Operation Paperclip, and ignored their war crimes, so that they could work for NASA.

• 1:34:11Speaker 01

  And they had, they had an important weapon, too, that we never talk about, that we also took, a form of propaganda. They had propaganda, a specific form, not the kind that you can Google and see Nazi propaganda and stuff like that, like a really effective form of propaganda.

• 1:34:30Speaker 00

  Well, how, in what way would they have?

• 1:34:32Speaker 01

  Um, so, that's another thing, so, uh...

• 1:34:36Speaker 00

  So this is an actual photograph of it?

• 1:34:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:34:38Speaker 00

  Whoa. So if you saw that thing flying through the sky in 1947, you would probably think that's from another planet. That totally looks like a space... I remember, um, after September 11th in 2001, I was filming Fear Factor, and we were in, uh, Southern California, near, oh, what is the base that's out there? Is it Edwards? Um, we're, we're near one of the Air Force bases, and I saw a stealth bomber fly overhead, and it looks like it's from another planet. It looks so crazy. We stopped filming, we were like, dude, what the fuck? It looks like Darth Vader's flying it.

• 1:35:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:20Speaker 00

  You know, it's so weird.

• 1:35:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:22Speaker 00

  It doesn't seem like it's ours. Now, I know it is, and I know they exist, but if I didn't?

• 1:35:28Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:35:28Speaker 00

  And I saw that?

• 1:35:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:29Speaker 00

  So, you gotta assume also, that if I saw it in 2001, maybe they had it in 1999, maybe they had it in 1989, maybe they had it in 79?

• 1:35:41Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:35:41Speaker 00

  Maybe they had something like that.

• 1:35:43Speaker 03

  That article says that we found that prototype in Germany, brought it back, and then this is what North are potentially made after some reverse engineering.

• 1:35:51Speaker 00

  So this is a, this is a wing powered by propellers, though.

• 1:35:54Speaker 03

  We didn't know how to make those jets.

• 1:35:55Speaker 00

  Right, and so they probably put the jets on it later, but fuck, that looks alien.

• 1:36:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:02Speaker 00

  So when you think of the Kenneth Arnold sighting, and you think of the description that he had, it's very similar to that.

• 1:36:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:07Speaker 00

  So that might have been it.

• 1:36:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:36:09Speaker 00

  But that doesn't, that doesn't jive with the Tic-Tac. The Tic-Tac's bananas.

• 1:36:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is, it is.

• 1:36:15Speaker 00

  Like, that, the speed that that thing moved, every human being inside of it, if there was a person flying in that, they would have got turned into Jell-O.

• 1:36:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:23Speaker 00

  Just from the G-forces.

• 1:36:24Speaker 01

  That's right, that's right.

• 1:36:25Speaker 00

  Also, there's no material that we have that could survive that kind of speed.

• 1:36:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:02Speaker 00

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• 1:38:11Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:38:12Speaker 03

  This came out in those, I think this came out in those alien document or one of the dumps.

• 1:38:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:17Speaker 00

  So this is, a lot of people have said that it's Lockheed Martin created that thing. And that is exactly what it looked like, including those weird things at the bottom. Those weird things at the bottom, whatever that stuff, those little, whatever those little tube looking things at the bottom of it. That is part of what they described when they said they saw the Tic Tac. And there have been people in the air quotes disclosure movement that have said openly, that thing was a Lockheed Martin device.

• 1:38:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's right.

• 1:38:50Speaker 00

  Okay, so that's the case. What, what is that? And how's that thing moving? And how's it moving that way in 2004?

• 1:39:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:01Speaker 00

  And if Lockheed Martin has this kind of technology 22 years ago.

• 1:39:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:07Speaker 00

  That, that baffles me and that defies, your imagination just runs wild like.

• 1:39:14Speaker 01

  So that's my point is that, you know, if, if this is happening and this has been happening, it's like, it's well, this is something that's kept well guarded. And even, I don't think, even with the disclosure today, I don't think that push is gonna, is gonna be effective.

• 1:39:34Speaker 00

  Right. I see what you're saying. So that thing from the disclosure dump from.

• 1:39:40Speaker 03

  I'm looking up more info right now.

• 1:39:41Speaker 00

  What is that?

• 1:39:42Speaker 03

  The perplexity has to say about it. It's not a hoax, real or, or it's certainly a hoax, wait.

• 1:39:48Speaker 04

  Almost certainly a hoax.

• 1:39:49Speaker 00

  Oh, how dare you perplexity. But what is perplexity getting this information from? So it says, what the story claims, a document circulating on social media since August of 2025, purports to be a leaked Lockheed Martin CIA flight manual for a craft called the CL 957 Gen 2, nicknamed Tic Tac. Per the claims, Instagram skunk works post.

• 1:40:14Speaker 03

  Someone made it on Reddit, it says.

• 1:40:16Speaker 00

  Okay, of course. Jason Wilde on X, Reddit forensic breakdown, Takana YouTube analysis, no providence, nothing in the Freedom of Information Act archives. The CIA crest database, black vault or national archive references. CL 957 or Orbit Lance, real black programs, OX cart have blue tactic, blue all eventually left paper trails. Wrong designation scheme, Lockheed CL, um, blank, blank, blank. California temporary design numbers are documented. CL 282, CL 1200, Lancer, et cetera. And CL 957 doesn't appear in any credible listing.

• 1:40:58Speaker 00

  Document artifacts, analyst flag, typography, formatting and classification marking inconsistencies versus real technical orders, plus anachronistic F 22 references and an odd CIA series aircraft phrasing.

• 1:41:16Speaker 03

  Hmm. It's only been found on social media, nowhere else.

• 1:41:18Speaker 00

  Well, then it's real. Don't you know that X is the news now? Don't you pay attention? God, Jamie.

• 1:41:26Speaker 03

  Sorry. Cause I wanna believe, I wanna believe that Lockheed Martin has that.

• 1:41:30Speaker 01

  Well, we always have Travis Walton.

• 1:41:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, but like Travis is one guy with one story. Very interesting.

• 1:41:37Speaker 01

  There's a lot of them though.

• 1:41:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, oh, 100%. There's, there's a lot of weird stories and there's a lot of weird stories of what Travis, the, the thing is, the real problem is, once it becomes iconic, right? Like, once there's, when there's, once there's a story that gets out there, like Betty and Barney Hill, for instance. You hear that story and then that story becomes a part of folklore. That story becomes a part of people's imagination. And when you start thinking about grays, you immediately start thinking about Whitley Strieber. Right? You start thinking about communion, you start thinking about Close Encounters. So you already have these images in your mind of what these things are supposed to look like.

• 1:42:17Speaker 01

  That's right, yeah.

• 1:42:17Speaker 00

  And that's a part of the problem, right?

• 1:42:19Speaker 01

  Uh, kind of, yeah.

• 1:42:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:42:22Speaker 01

  That is a part of the problem. I was gonna go down another path.

• 1:42:27Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:42:27Speaker 01

  Okay, so about reverse engineering stuff, like how does this work?

• 1:42:31Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:42:32Speaker 01

  All right, so one of the things that I came to like understand was that, a couple of people told me about this and it was nothing that they intended to tell me, by the way, but I asked. So, you know, Tyler was, was doing this reverse engineering type of thing. He's trying to find people to help him with, with this. And he would have what he thought were, or alleged UFO debris that he had found at various places, like in New Mexico and so forth. And then what he had to do was he had to get together a group of engineers that could actually reverse engineer it. And he would tell them, he wouldn't say, this is a UFO or this is, you know, something found in the desert. No, no, he would say, this is China's or this is Russia's.

• 1:43:15Speaker 01

  And we need, in order to keep our, you know, dominance or whatnot, we need to get this reverse engineered pronto. And that this lie would then motivate these guys, okay? And that they would reverse engineer this and he would come up with something, okay? So later on, I would listen to Hal and Hal would give these, these talks. Hal put off, by the way, who's, who's one of the people that is interested in UFOs and knows a lot about them. And so he gave this talk at the inaugural Seoul conference and I was there. And so I was listening to him and to me, it sounded like what he was saying was exactly what Tyler was saying. That he was saying, we have this, you know, but we don't actually know how to do this, how to back engineer this.

• 1:43:58Speaker 01

  So we're gonna give it to this talented group of people and we're gonna tell them that this was already made, but a, a non ally, like an enemy had it. So basically by telling them this, they would then, like in a sense, do kind of like a, a trick on their minds. And they would actually reverse engineer it. They would reverse engineer something that he said already existed. So in a sense, it was like, um, not only working with time in a weird way, or like, kind of like, you know, projecting what was gonna be in the future, telling them it already had been done. So that made me think, this is like the propaganda that I'm talking about and that you just started to talk about. Like, if we could then on a mass scale, tell people that we have something or this is the case,

• 1:44:43Speaker 01

  maybe there would be a critical, like mental construct and people would actually do something, arise to the occasion or something like that. That could have been propaganda for the space race, right? That could have been like the moon landing stuff, like, you know, uh, I'm not saying that didn't happen, by the way. I'm saying that, you know, part of it was a way to get Americans to win the space race. We had to already believe that we won it, right? In order to create this stuff, we already have to believe that someone else created it. It's like the five minute mile. You see what I'm saying?

• 1:45:20Speaker 00

  Four minute, right?

• 1:45:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, that, why, maybe it's a five minutes to me. The women's five minute mile, right? No, the four minute mile, that's right. So we already had to believe that it had been done in order to do it.

• 1:45:34Speaker 00

  Right, because once someone broke it, then a bunch of people broke it.

• 1:45:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, that's right. So, so, oh, and then I was asked by people who are, um, in the government to speak to inter-agency, like people, scientists. And so they would have me talk to these scientists, like 50 of them, right? From various parts of the government and basically tell them the story of like American cosmic. And I was like, okay, I'll do that. Why? You know, they didn't say anything about why, but I started to think, maybe this is like a Hal put off thing. Or maybe this is like a Tyler thing, that I'm doing this for them so that their brains can think, this has already been done, we'd better do this.

• 1:46:16Speaker 00

  Hmm. So when, when you say the sophisticated propaganda that the Nazis have, that we took this technology from them, like what do you mean by that? Like what was their tech, what, what was unique about their propaganda?

• 1:46:29Speaker 01

  All right, so I don't know exactly, but I do have some ideas. And two of the ideas I have are what I just told you. That if you concede the population with images and belief, you know, that will impact their belief, you can change it, okay? There's that one. But there's also the one that, you know, Bill Cooper's book. Behold a pale horse. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so in Behold a Pale Horse, he talks about the quiet weapons, where he's talking about basically technology and how technology is going to. Engineer consent. And he's talking about this in, I don't know exactly when he wrote that.

• 1:47:09Speaker 00

  Engineer consent.

• 1:47:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, engineer consent of the population about certain things and you do that through

• 1:47:16Speaker 01

  utilizing social media. Well, he's not calling it that. He's calling it quiet weapons. But, you know, back then, putting stuff on TV and, you know, creating a narrative that people buy into and believe. And he said that this is going to, you see this, by the way, with Arthur C. Clarke in his book, in his short story, Childhood's End, or no, it's a book, where, you know, he's talking about aliens, where these aliens are engineering humanity through technology, through social media and things like that.

• 1:47:50Speaker 01

  So this could be what the Nazi propaganda, the weapon is, that it could be used as a weapon, but it could also be used for good.

• 1:47:59Speaker 00

  And it could be used to facilitate technological innovation by telling them that it's already been done.

• 1:48:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. You know, when I was, I was, I ran in college, so I was a college runner for track and cross-country. And I had a great team of coaches who would teach us sports psychology. And part of what we would do would be, we would already see us winning, we would already see, and they would also tell us so-and-so ran this, you know, you can do this. So in a sense, they were utilizing that on our team. And it was good. It was, you know, helpful.

• 1:48:39Speaker 00

  Right. Well, it's, it's very important, your mindset, especially when it comes to athletics, because there's so much that's involved in competition that's psychological.

• 1:48:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:49Speaker 00

  Do you think that that also is the case when it comes to technological innovation?

• 1:48:55Speaker 01

  Definitely.

• 1:48:55Speaker 00

  You have to believe that it can be done, or that it has been done, and that it helps you figure out the pathway.

• 1:49:02Speaker 01

  I mean, this is what I'm telling you. So with the, the people that I just talked about, we're talking about Tyler, right? We're talking about then Hal, even though I don't think he'd say that that's what he was doing or talking about, that's what I interpreted his talk to be. And he's talking, you know, he's, he has some really interesting ideas about physics and matter and reality and so forth. And then later on, yeah, that's what I think, you know, I think that, that works, that actually works.

• 1:49:30Speaker 00

  It makes sense that it would, that the blocks that people have in their mind about what is and what is not possible, that if you say, not only is it possible, it's already been done, so.

• 1:49:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, yeah, so I don't know, like, when we start to talk about, like, the various things that we've been talking about, like, you know, if this is real and that happened and so forth, maybe that's what the, they're trying to get us not to talk about the really interesting things, like maybe that, you know, that form of what, what could be a form of mind control.

• 1:49:59Speaker 00

  I understand that, but when it comes to technology that could have military applications and that we've had all these military conflicts, you would imagine that you would see some of this stuff being utilized. And there's no real evidence that there has been. Like, there's no evidence from Iraq or Afghanistan, from any of those conflicts, that we had something that moves faster than the speed of light and that we have weapons that are indescribable, until Nicaragua. So, or Venezuela, rather. The Venezuelan contact, where we, conflict, rather, where we abducted the president and we came in and incapacitated everybody with some sort of a sound weapon, like, that all stuff sounds like super-science

• 1:50:43Speaker 00

  fictiony. And when you realize, like, that is real, they absolutely did that. So they have had something for a long time that can do things that are beyond our understanding of what we thought was possible.

• 1:50:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:51:00Speaker 00

  Hal Puthoff had that crazy story about when he was working for the Bush administration, where they brought him in with a bunch of other scientists.

• 1:51:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know about that, yeah.

• 1:51:07Speaker 00

  Yeah. And they said, we are going to disclose that there are alien crafts and that we have biological remains of creatures from some other place. What is the negative and what are the positive impacts of this? And I want you to put a numerical value on each one of them and tell us what, what the result is. And all, all the people that they brought in all had similar conclusions when they said, how's it gonna impact government? How's it gonna impact religion? How's it gonna impact society or economy? There's way more negative than there is positive. And so they decided not to disclose. And when he tells that story, it's just like, God, that tracks, that tracks, like, that they would do that, that they would say, maybe we should tell everybody, but this

• 1:51:51Speaker 00

  is gonna be the impact. My belief is that's a temporary impact and that society's gonna continue to function because it's pragmatic. We're gonna have to, you're gonna have to have an economy, you're gonna have to have government, you're gonna have to have all these things, while also knowing we're not alone. And maybe that would help dissolve some of the conflicts that we have. Because if we think that we're the only gang in town and then there's another gang over there and we're duking it out with them, if we find out, well, actually, there's a gang from another planet, that's, that's the Reagan speech to the United Nations.

• 1:52:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know, yeah.

• 1:52:24Speaker 00

  That all the UFO dorks went, oh, he's telling us something.

• 1:52:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:28Speaker 00

  That if we were faced with a threat from another world, how quickly we'd put aside our differences.

• 1:52:32Speaker 01

  Yep. That's right, yeah.

• 1:52:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:52:35Speaker 01

  I mean, yeah, I, I'm with you. I think that people won't be, they won't go into shock and things like that.

• 1:52:41Speaker 00

  But it would temporarily disrupt everything. And that, therein lies the problem. The problem is the collapse of the economy, global trust in government, like, if the government really isn't the people that are in control, if there really is something far above and beyond the human government that has some sort of an influence on world events, that's, that's, it's a real, it's tough to vote in a congressman that says they're gonna enact change when we're being observed by extraterrestrial life that can read your mind.

• 1:53:14Speaker 01

  I don't know if that's true. I don't know if I agree with you on that. I think that it's all, I think people will be all right. I mean, we're having the government say today, right? I mean, J.D. Vance on your podcast just said, it's, they're demons, right? That's, that's pretty bad.

• 1:53:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, but I mean, if J.D. Vance doesn't know, aren't we all fucked? If he just thinks that they're demons, like, what, he doesn't seem.

• 1:53:37Speaker 01

  No, I think he's fine. I think that more people.

• 1:53:38Speaker 00

  He says he's too busy to, like, really dig into the UFO stuff, which I kind of get and understand, but also don't, because if that was, obviously, I'm never gonna be vice president, but if I was, I'd be like, the first thing I would look into, as soon as I got into my desk, I'd be like, where do they have everything? I'm going there. I'm going there, I'm gonna say you have to show me. And I'll keep my mouth shut, but I need to know. Like, you need to show me. We need to know, like, what are we, I need to know what position we're at in order to move forward. I don't know, I need to know where are we operating from? Are we operating from a position where human beings are the advanced dominant intellect on Earth or not? Because if it's or not, that changes everything.

• 1:54:21Speaker 01

  But you're rare. You're the rare person who, like, most people in the United States believe in God. Like, there are more than 80% of people who believe in God. They think God runs it, right? God is a non-human intelligence.

• 1:54:34Speaker 00

  But that doesn't, they, they're not mutually exclusive. Like, God could exist and also intelligent life from elsewhere could also exist.

• 1:54:42Speaker 01

  That's right. And that's why most people won't be shocked or upset. I don't think that there's gonna be a level of anxiety that people predict. Honestly, I don't.

• 1:54:51Speaker 00

  Well, hasn't the Vatican even addressed this in saying that if alien life exists, that God could have created life other places?

• 1:54:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course, yeah.

• 1:54:59Speaker 00

  Which really does make sense.

• 1:55:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So they're not gonna be upset. And there are a lot of Catholics in the United States. So, I mean, people in the United States, or even all over the world, there are countries, like in Brazil, where they're okay with, you know, if there, if there are aliens up there, it's not gonna change. They're probably watching us and nobody's gonna be upset about that. They're still gonna vote for their presidents and their congresspeople and so forth.

• 1:55:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, but it does.

• 1:55:22Speaker 01

  So, Joe, you're like the only one here that I, not the only one, but you're representing a small minority of people, in my opinion.

• 1:55:29Speaker 00

  How so?

• 1:55:30Speaker 01

  Because you think that, that it's gonna change everything. You think that it might actually change your worldview, but it's not gonna change the 80% out there. It's not gonna change their worldview.

• 1:55:41Speaker 00

  I think that's a guess. Mine's a guess as well. It's a guess of how it's gonna affect the world. I, I would assume it affects it in a pretty spectacular way. If we have undeniable proof that there is some superior intelligence that's interacting with us and perhaps even controlling events and preventing certain things from happening, like when they go over nuclear bases and stop weapons functions.

• 1:56:10Speaker 01

  This is a religious worldview. That's all, that's the religious worldview you're, you're identifying right there.

• 1:56:16Speaker 00

  How is that a religious worldview, that there's an intelligent life form from another planet that comes down and stops nuclear?

• 1:56:21Speaker 01

  But like, you know, there's an intelligent interdimensional.

• 1:56:24Speaker 00

  Right. We don't know if it's from another planet. It's a guess, right?

• 1:56:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, most religions are assuming that there are other, there are gods and goddesses or there is God. And there are angels and demons and things like that. There are, you know, non-human intelligences. So they already think this. This is already a worldview.

• 1:56:41Speaker 00

  Well, that's what gets weird when you get into the really old scripts, like the Book of Enoch.

• 1:56:47Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:56:48Speaker 00

  That, you know, Anna Paulina Luna, she's the one who turned me on to that.

• 1:56:52Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 1:56:52Speaker 00

  And I've listened to the audiobook of the Book of Enoch twice now. And every time I listen to it, I'm like, what the fuck were they talking about?

• 1:57:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:57:00Speaker 00

  Like, what is, what are the watchers?

• 1:57:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:04Speaker 00

  Who came down and, and bred with the daughters of man and created the Nephilim? Like, what is, what is all this stuff?

• 1:57:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, that informs a lot of Christian doctrines.

• 1:57:18Speaker 00

  Well, not really, not today, but because it's not included in the canon. But what if it was, right?

• 1:57:26Speaker 01

  It's included in the canon, but just not in reference to the Book of Enoch.

• 1:57:30Speaker 00

  Well, the Book of Enoch's not in the canon, but Enoch is referenced in the Bible.

• 1:57:33Speaker 01

  Absolutely, yeah.

• 1:57:34Speaker 00

  Which is kinda nuts that you don't get the Book of Enoch.

• 1:57:37Speaker 01

  But you have the worldview of Enoch, a lot of Christians still believe in that. And it's, I would say that, I don't know, like more than 50%. So even though, so yes.

• 1:57:47Speaker 00

  More than 50% believe?

• 1:57:49Speaker 01

  Believe in the worldview of Enoch, that we're, that there are watchers and fallen angels and things like that. That, you know, this is the supernatural worldview and it's alive and well. Paul, uh, she believes in it, right? She believes that there are.

• 1:58:04Speaker 00

  She?

• 1:58:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, Anna Paulina.

• 1:58:06Speaker 00

  Oh, okay.

• 1:58:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I've heard her say that she thinks they're interdimensional beings also. So in a sense, the preternatural.

• 1:58:13Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:58:16Speaker 00

  Imagine a world, imagine how different religion would be if the Book of Enoch was regularly taught in Sunday at church. That they would tell you that story, along with Moses and along with all the other stories. That they would tell you about the Book of Enoch and everybody in the church would be sitting there like, what? What are you talking about? Who are the watchers? Like, what are they? They came down and, and lay with the daughters of man? What?

• 1:58:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:47Speaker 00

  Like, this is, this was a part of an ancient story. And the real question is, when, whenever I read these biblical stories, I'm always trying to. I know that they're writing things down, first of all, they're writing it in ancient Hebrew and then it's transcribed and, and translated into Latin and to Greek and all these other languages. And a lot is lost in that translation, a lot, a lot gets interpreted very weird. Because of just, just the way languages are formed, just the way they, they structure sentences. So it, like, a lot of the context of it is where, also in ancient Hebrew, numbers, double, letters double as numbers.

• 1:59:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, a lot of coded stuff.

• 1:59:28Speaker 00

  Right, so there's numerical value to the words, which is really weird.

• 1:59:31Speaker 01

  There are churches, though, that do teach that. There are some religious traditions, I agree with you, that this tradition is not well taught to Christians or Jewish people, you know, today. But that doesn't mean that the Christians aren't gonna go out and learn for themselves. They do, they do learn for themselves and they actually have communities that know about this, so lots do.

• 1:59:55Speaker 00

  Well, certainly the Ethiopians.

• 1:59:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course.

• 1:59:57Speaker 00

  Right, which is weird, that the Ethiopian Bible has that in it. They have the Book of Enoch as a part of the Ethiopian Bible.

• 2:00:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, that, well, it's one, it's one of the first Bibles, it's one of the first. So Ethiopian Christianity is like one of the oldest forms of continuous Christianity.

• 2:00:14Speaker 00

  But there's no real translation of it that's available in English, right? Isn't that the case with the Ethiopian Bible?

• 2:00:21Speaker 01

  Well, let's see, yeah, I guess you're right, I don't actually know about that. I mean, you can look it up, I mean, people can look up this stuff and there are people who write about it. Like, my field, people write about it.

• 2:00:32Speaker 00

  Right, your field, but I mean, the average Christian is not really aware of what's in the Book of Enoch.

• 2:00:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're right, you're right. So that's where, like, a basic studies religion class, like, where, you know, if you take my class, I'll make you aware of it. I'll make you aware of the different forms of Christianity, right? The ones before the Roman Catholicism and, you know, the earliest forms of Christianity. I'll also make you aware of the supernatural worldview.

• 2:00:58Speaker 00

  I feel like it's all, there was something that happened, there, there's real events. And I just don't know if the stories are accurate. I don't know if the, the written version of these stories accurately relays the real events that took place. And what they're trying to say. Especially when, in regards to the watchers and the Nephilim and all that stuff and the giants. There's just so many weird parts of those stories that we're just supposed to just accept. Like, what is that? That sounds to me like genetic engineering is what it sounds like.

• 2:01:37Speaker 00

  It sounds like a primitive translation of, or explanation of what genetic engineering of human beings was. That's what it sounds like.

• 2:01:47Speaker 01

  You know, that belief was still around after Jesus was crucified and, within the early church. Cause Paul writes about it in his letters.

• 2:01:57Speaker 00

  What does he write about?

• 2:01:58Speaker 01

  Okay, so you know the, um, the tradition of women wearing veils in church?

• 2:02:04Speaker 00

  No.

• 2:02:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, so if you go to a mass today, like a Catholic mass, some women will be wearing veils. And if you go to a traditionalist mass, mass, they will be wearing veils. And, um, the reason that Paul gave was because of the angels that were attracted to them in church. So you have to be careful, women, when you go to church, the angels might be there who might be attracted to you. He doesn't say that specifically, but that's part of the reason why. So the early Christian church was, they were immersed in that worldview. That worldview is, is still around.

• 2:02:37Speaker 00

  So the women wore veils so that the watchers wouldn't find them attractive?

• 2:02:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:02:43Speaker 00

  Whoa.

• 2:02:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, and some women still wear veils.

• 2:02:46Speaker 00

  That's crazy.

• 2:02:48Speaker 01

  So, yeah, a lot of that tradition is still here.

• 2:02:51Speaker 00

  So just a residual interpretation of whatever the original story, the original event was.

• 2:02:56Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 2:02:59Speaker 00

  Do you think humans were genetically engineered?

• 2:03:02Speaker 01

  I'm, you know, I'm Catholic, right? I'm Christian, okay, so.

• 2:03:06Speaker 00

  What do you think happened?

• 2:03:08Speaker 01

  I, I mean, of course, my views have changed. So before I got into the UFO thing, I was a, you know, I went to Catholic church. I went to daily mass sometimes, I was Christian. I've been Christian since I was 11. I was raised by secular parents, they were not.

• 2:03:24Speaker 00

  How did you get involved in Christianity?

• 2:03:25Speaker 01

  I was converted through, on Easter, by the way, on Good Friday, by watching, and I didn't try to watch, it was on TV. My parents had put it on and I was 11 and I was doing Easter eggs. And they were playing Franco Zeffirelli's Jesus Nazareth. And I started to watch it. Now, I didn't know that he was crucified at the end, because I was just, you know, a kid. I wasn't raised religious at all. And my dad came from a Catholic family, my mother came from a Jewish family, she's Jewish. And so they didn't practice religion, total rationalists. Um, so I was watching it and it was when the, the scene where, where the woman, the adulterous woman

• 2:04:07Speaker 01

  is just about to be stoned to death by these guys, right, this big group? And they're just about to throw the stones and Jesus goes down and starts throwing something. And I was like, what the, what is he gonna do? And, um, he basically says, those of you with, uh, without sin, throw the first stone. And I was like, oh, that was brilliant, right? And so then I was hooked, I was hooked. And at the end, he was crucified, I was devastated. And so I told my mother, I said, Mom, you have to buy me a Bible, like, you have to. So the next day we went out, she doesn't know what to look for, so we go to this store. And the, the person helped us out and they gave us a, uh, King James Version of the Bible, red letter. I said, I want everything that Jesus said, I wanna know all that he said.

• 2:04:51Speaker 01

  And I was hooked on it. So I read this thing, I read the whole thing. And at that point, I recognized I had to grow up and I had to read the original sources, cause that was hard to read. It didn't make sense. And I was like, this doesn't make sense to me, what he said was beautiful and I was hooked. Um, I became a Christian.

• 2:05:09Speaker 00

  What didn't make sense to you, what part of it?

• 2:05:10Speaker 01

  The whole Bible, the whole Bible, when you start to read it from beginning to end, you know, there are all those things that you just don't understand. There are two creation stories in Genesis and you're like, well, why are there two? And, you know, there are all those names and languages and you're like, what? You get to the Book of Leviticus and it has all these rules and regulations and you're like, you just don't understand it. And I knew that at that point, I needed to learn the original languages and how they were put together. That's why I decided to become a professor of religion. And so, um, I became a Christian and I was a born again Christian. And then when it came time to go to high school, I asked my father, he had connections to Catholics, if I could go to Catholic high school.

• 2:05:52Speaker 01

  Luckily, I went to a Sisters of Mercy high school where they were beautiful people and I learned Catholicism in action, like actually helping people and stuff. And, um, and I became Catholic. And so I've been Catholic my whole life after that.

• 2:06:07Speaker 00

  Did your parents ever join you?

• 2:06:10Speaker 01

  My dad, my dad did, yeah, he's passed away, he died pretty young. But, yeah, he did, he, he was brought back to religion because of me.

• 2:06:19Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 2:06:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it was really pretty intense. But, um, my, you know, that's just how it was. Uh, but anyway, so I became very interested, obviously, you know? I thought, this is super important, we have to know about the, how this happened, just like you said. How do I know this really happened? And, um, and that's when I became aware of the old, like, the Ethiopian church, the earliest texts for Christians. And the, and I don't think Christian churches do a good job of relaying this information to Christians, frankly. I think that they don't do the best job and that they could do it better.

• 2:07:00Speaker 01

  And so I now, I teach New Testament at my university and, you know, I, I do my best to kinda convey what the, what these people were experiencing and, and the kinds of people still experience those things today. So, yeah, so that's how I became, uh, that's how I became Christian.

• 2:07:18Speaker 00

  Interesting, so.

• 2:07:21Speaker 00

  When I said, "Do you think that human beings were genetically engineered?" Your response was, "I'm Catholic."

• 2:07:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, unless you're talking about God doing that genetic engineering.

• 2:07:33Speaker 00

  So you think that the Bible is an absolute literal translation of real events?

• 2:07:39Speaker 01

  No, no, no.

• 2:07:39Speaker 00

  So what do you think it is?

• 2:07:40Speaker 01

  It's a... Okay, so Catholics don't believe in biblical literalism, which is that you can't, because there are so many parts of the Bible that contradict. So you'd be, you know, that would be a contradiction. But they believe that it is the inspired word of God written by people, written by men. And so there's fallibility in terms of the... Not in morals and the conveying of the spirit of Christianity.

• 2:08:05Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:08:05Speaker 01

  But, you know, so, so, yeah, that's what they believe. So in terms of the genetic engineering, do I... I believe that Enoch, the Book of Enoch, it conveys the spirit of truth, absolutely. Do I believe that there are... That's why I believe that if the... According... Listen, when I started to study UFOs, I was not expecting at all what I found. And what I found reinforced my own religion, my own Catholic upbringing, or self-chosen upbringing.

• 2:08:38Speaker 00

  How did it reinforce it?

• 2:08:40Speaker 01

  Okay, so that's, that's where I was at, actually. So I was pretty secular, even as a Christian, especially after I went to graduate school. So I went to graduate school, studied all of this stuff, and then became a professor. And I believed in the spirit of the book. I believed in the spirit of Christianity, I believed it's true. Therefore, I taught it to my kids, I went to church, I'd sometimes go to mass. You know, they have daily mass in Catholicism. I homeschool my kids in a Catholic homeschool group, for the most part, until they needed some outsourcing in math. And so, um... But it wasn't until I became... I studied UFOs that I recognized that the Book of Enoch is alive and well today.

• 2:09:25Speaker 01

  That's what I recognized in ufology. And I encountered stuff that I thought looked pretty dodgy. And I was like, "This looks like the preternatural." And I... It... So that's what I'm saying. It supercharged my Christianity to the point where I went back and I reread all of that stuff again. And I recognized that whatever they're dealing with now, when people are having these experiences and so forth, not all of them, but a good many of them are... You can, you know, look to me similar in, in kind. I don't say they're identical, but they look similar. And therefore, if that's the case, then, you know, I, I need to be a different type of believer.

• 2:10:10Speaker 01

  I need to be a much more believing believer.

• 2:10:13Speaker 00

  What do you mean, believing believer?

• 2:10:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I can't be secular about my Christianity. I actually have to practice it, live it, be prepared for what comes next, kind of that lifestyle. That's what, that's the kind of lifestyle.

• 2:10:26Speaker 00

  Is it in any way frustrating that you have studied so much of these encounters and these experiences, but you don't have a personal encounter or a personal experience with these things?

• 2:10:39Speaker 01

  Uh, well, that's an assumption that you have.

• 2:10:42Speaker 00

  That you don't have one?

• 2:10:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:10:44Speaker 00

  Do you have one?

• 2:10:45Speaker 01

  Well, maybe. I'm not... I don't feel comfortable talking about it, but yeah, I have some experiences.

• 2:10:50Speaker 00

  Why don't you feel comfortable talking about it? You really... This is part of what you do for a living. You, you talk about other people's encounters. Why would you not feel comfortable talking about your encounters?

• 2:11:02Speaker 01

  Well, because that is, um... I mean, I'm not sure what to think of them. That's why I... Listen, this is not what motivated me to study ufology or those kinds of things. When I think about the encounters of...

• 2:11:15Speaker 00

  Did you have these encounters before you studied ufology?

• 2:11:19Speaker 01

  When I look back, I say, "Yes, I had those encounters, yeah."

• 2:11:23Speaker 00

  When did you first have an encounter?

• 2:11:24Speaker 01

  I didn't interpret them as UFOs, though. Well, my... I did have a family member who had an experience with what looks like a UFO. And it was documented, I actually found a documentation of it from the time in a newspaper. Other people had seen it, too. So I live in a place that is called, that has UFOs. So I grew up near Folsom Lake. And that's... There are lots of UFOs around that area. And so he had a... This is, of course, a long time ago when we... He was not interested in UFOs, I wasn't. And he was, he was young, riding his bike up a hill. And he saw it and, um... And it kind of... It, it was a classic UFO thing. Turned around, looked at him, and he was like, "What?"

• 2:12:09Speaker 01

  And sped down the hill screaming, uh, came into the driveway. My parents went out there, and now my parents, complete rationalists. And they see it, too. And they, uh, they saw it and it just kind of like hu-h hovered. And it was like a giant orb, orange orb. And it hovered for a while, and then it just went up in the sky and disappeared. And so they had this. This is before I went to college every... It was a very long time ago. And, um, and then later, when I started to study this, uh, I, I had family members tell me, "Yeah, remember that?" And I was like, "Yeah, yeah, tell me about that." And so they reiterated that this is what happened. And they wanted to kind of get it on the record.

• 2:12:52Speaker 01

  And then, um, one of them found the documentation of a newspaper at the time and sent it to me. So I have that data. So there's been that, but that's kind of a normal thing. Like, people have those experiences. And, you know, they... Nothing changes in their life.

• 2:13:07Speaker 00

  But you said that you had experiences that you're not necessarily comfortable in talking about.

• 2:13:11Speaker 01

  Well, I wouldn't... I didn't have a UFO experience. Like, I haven't had, like, UFO experiences like that.

• 2:13:16Speaker 00

  What have you had?

• 2:13:18Speaker 01

  Well, I had the very normal experience of a person who is a believing Christian. And if you have, if you're that kind of person, you will have experiences where you feel like this is, you know, there's, there's more to life than kind of what you're taught at school. So that's the kind of experience I'm talking about. Uh, people in the Book of Acts have it.

• 2:13:40Speaker 00

  Can you elaborate?

• 2:13:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:13:41Speaker 00

  Like, what do you mean by that? What, what experiences have you had that made you feel that way?

• 2:13:45Speaker 01

  Oh, I've had lifelong experiences like that.

• 2:13:48Speaker 00

  Like what?

• 2:13:49Speaker 01

  Well, just that certain things happen at the right time, at the right moment. And, you know, I mean, lots of people have these experiences. If you read about, uh, Mel Gibson doing his movies, you know, The Passion of the Christ, he talks about very powerful things that happened on the set. So things like this, things that you, you know that they're not probable. Like Jim Caviezel being hit by lightning when he's on the cross and, you know, things like that that happen. Uh, that's, you're like, "Wow, okay." I mean, you could say that's a coincidence, and, you know, you can look at it from that perspective. But, uh... It's all outlined in the Book of Acts in the New Testament, if you read that book.

• 2:14:33Speaker 01

  It talks about these very, these very significant experiences to the people. But the reason I don't talk about them is because if you talk about them to people who don't have those experiences, they will just say, "Well, that's just a coincidence," or "That's that." So you're like, "Yeah, that's one way to look at it." So you can't convey... It's like a, it's, it's a question of this qualia. It's a, it's a question of your own perception of it.

• 2:14:59Speaker 00

  Right, but as an educator, don't you think perhaps if you have had these experiences, you have a responsibility to try to relay that information to people?

• 2:15:08Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no. Because I'm... I teach religious studies. So in religious studies, you'll see this, this in my book, too. Uh, you're teaching about the actual book, the, the con... Social context, the historical context. You're not actually advocating for a belief system.

• 2:15:27Speaker 00

  But, but relaying your personal experiences is not advocating for a belief system?

• 2:15:32Speaker 01

  It would be.

• 2:15:33Speaker 00

  Why?

• 2:15:37Speaker 00

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• 2:17:35Speaker 01

  Because.

• 2:17:36Speaker 00

  Isn't a belief, isn't an experience open to interpretation?

• 2:17:41Speaker 01

  An experience.

• 2:17:41Speaker 00

  So, how would you be relaying your belief systems by having an experience that you detail in an honest way? That's open to interpretation?

• 2:17:49Speaker 01

  I would do that if I was in a, a situation where that kind of experience was helpful to people. I, and I have done that before. Like, I've been on podcasts where, um, you know, where they would say they're Christians and, you know, we're talking about Christian life and so forth. And I would explain my experiences and we would talk about that and people would, you know, they would talk about their experiences. But when you're at a secular university, that's not what you do. You don't do that. When I'm writing as a scholar of religion, you're not, that's not what it's about. It's not about whether or not these experiences are real. What it is about is about how this is shaping culture now.

• 2:18:33Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm. What I meant when I asked you that question, I'm talking about UFO abductions, encountering beings and entities. That's what I'm talking about. I'm like, have you had one of those experiences?

• 2:18:45Speaker 01

  I have not, no.

• 2:18:46Speaker 00

  Don't you wish you did?

• 2:18:48Speaker 01

  Um, no. It doesn't look like I wish that I did. When I look at what happens to people who have had abductions and these experiences, um, it looks traumatic, Joe. I don't, no, I don't want that.

• 2:19:03Speaker 00

  Interesting.

• 2:19:03Speaker 01

  Like, life is already traumatic enough, you know?

• 2:19:07Speaker 00

  Right, I get what you're saying.

• 2:19:10Speaker 00

  When you hear about people that supposedly they, they have this ritualistic practice where they manifest orbs and they, they meditate.

• 2:19:22Speaker 01

  Psionics.

• 2:19:23Speaker 00

  What do you think that is?

• 2:19:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I do believe that they're doing something.

• 2:19:28Speaker 00

  A friend of mine did it recently. And she's, she's very rational. She's a very rational person, very intelligent person, and she wants me to do it with her. She's like, you gotta come and try this out. And like, we were trying to set a date where, she's like, I'll explain to you how I did it and how you do it. I was like, alright, I believe you. Like, I've been friends with her for decades. She's super rational, very normal person, very intelligent, not crazy in any way, shape or form. And she's like, it's gonna sound fucking nuts, but if you do this, and if you do it and you give it enough time, they will show up.

• 2:20:06Speaker 01

  Is this with like Stephen Greer? Is it like C5 with him?

• 2:20:09Speaker 00

  She doesn't do, she's, she's not in any way associated with that guy. But she was taught how to do it by someone else. And she said, she went on some fucking thing where they, they all did it together. And, and then she's done it privately, alone, and she said you could do it.

• 2:20:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:20:28Speaker 00

  She's gonna, she said it's gonna sound fucking insane, but it's real.

• 2:20:35Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:20:35Speaker 00

  What do you think about that?

• 2:20:38Speaker 01

  Alright, well, I believe that it happens.

• 2:20:40Speaker 00

  What do you think is happening?

• 2:20:43Speaker 01

  I'm not sure what's happening, but I don't think I would do it.

• 2:20:46Speaker 00

  Why not?

• 2:20:47Speaker 01

  Because I, I believe in cognitive sovereignty. Like, I believe that we should be sovereign, like our, you know, not have something.

• 2:20:55Speaker 00

  Interacting with us.

• 2:20:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:20:57Speaker 00

  Beyond our.

• 2:20:57Speaker 01

  Mentally and spiritually. And, you know, so, yeah, that's why I wouldn't do it.

• 2:21:02Speaker 00

  But is, does it take away your sovereignty to communicate with something else?

• 2:21:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, a lot of times it does. So, one of the things that I noticed when I started to talk to people, and I don't wanna like, you know, tell you not to do it, but.

• 2:21:15Speaker 00

  I'm gonna do it.

• 2:21:16Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:21:17Speaker 00

  You're not gonna talk me out of it.

• 2:21:18Speaker 01

  Alright. Alright, I wouldn't do it.

• 2:21:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, one of the things I noticed was a lot of people in the beginning, when I was doing this research, would, and still today, would say, Diana, you can contact these beings, okay? And this is how you do it, and you have to give them permission. And I was like, what are you talking about?

• 2:21:37Speaker 00

  That sounds like vampire shit, right?

• 2:21:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's right. I'm like, I'm not gonna do that.

• 2:21:40Speaker 00

  Let the vampire in.

• 2:21:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, you have to give them permission. Yeah, and, and that's.

• 2:21:44Speaker 00

  Isn't that weird? I wonder if that's where that comes from?

• 2:21:47Speaker 01

  Alright, well, that's what I'm telling you, that you should give them.

• 2:21:50Speaker 00

  The vampire lore is that you have to invite them in.

• 2:21:52Speaker 01

  That's right, but that's the demonic lore too.

• 2:21:55Speaker 00

  Really? You have to invite them in?

• 2:21:56Speaker 01

  So, I mean, if you're gonna do that, that's, you're inviting them in.

• 2:22:00Speaker 00

  Oh, boy.

• 2:22:01Speaker 01

  So.

• 2:22:01Speaker 00

  Now I'm second guessing it.

• 2:22:03Speaker 01

  I'm just saying, uh, there's.

• 2:22:05Speaker 00

  Jamie, would you do it?

• 2:22:07Speaker 03

  I mean, I almost tried, I think. I think I try it daily, but like, just in my own head.

• 2:22:15Speaker 00

  What do you think about people that have psychedelic experiences where they encounter entities?

• 2:22:20Speaker 01

  I think they're encountering entities, yeah. So, I think psychedelics is the quick way to open up that spiritual part of your brain, but it's a dangerous way. Well, look, okay, I'm not, I don't wanna go down this. I've, I've been on, I've gone down this road before, but, um.

• 2:22:37Speaker 00

  What's wrong with the road? Why don't you like to go down that road?

• 2:22:42Speaker 01

  Oh, because I guess, um, there's, there's part of your brain. Actually, we talked about this last time I was on here. We talked about the spiritual sense, remember? We talked about the pineal gland and stuff like that?

• 2:22:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:22:54Speaker 01

  Okay, so I've learned a lot about it since then, alright? And what I, I, it's a real thing, okay? And again, the Christian churches don't do a good job of conveying that this is really important for Christians to know about, and not just Christians, but religious people all over the world. This is what they're doing when they're doing those protocols of religion. They're trying to cultivate the spiritual sense. Why? Because the human being is oriented toward the sacred. Like, we're, we're a very specific type of thing. We're oriented toward the sacred. The spiritual sense is what helps us connect to it. We could, you know, utilize the spiritual sense through certain things, fasting, um, living a certain way, you know, and that sort of thing. It's really important, by the way.

• 2:23:39Speaker 01

  And, um, digital culture like is messing with that, by the way, the spiritual sense. Okay, so psychedelics are one way to like hijack into it and, you know, open up that world. Uh, so it's a quick way, but it's, it's, I wouldn't call it the ideal way. Although in some religions, like the Church of Native Americans, that's their way of doing it. That's their way of doing it, alright? And they have rituals to do it with, you know, it's sacred.

• 2:24:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, so to do it casually and without, you know, without attention is probably, might be dangerous. I've done, I've utilized mushrooms when I was young.

• 2:24:28Speaker 00

  I like that word.

• 2:24:29Speaker 01

  Utilized?

• 2:24:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:24:31Speaker 01

  You know, when I did it though, like I was really young.

• 2:24:33Speaker 00

  Sounds very official.

• 2:24:34Speaker 01

  I was, I was very young and, uh, I prayed before I did it, my friend and I, and we had a really, you know, good experience and so forth. But I think I was just lucky, okay? I think I was lucky.

• 2:24:46Speaker 00

  Why do you think that?

• 2:24:47Speaker 01

  Because I've had friends who've had really terrible experiences.

• 2:24:50Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:24:51Speaker 01

  And so I think that it's best just not to, unless you're like born into that culture that does that, that's part of your religion.

• 2:24:59Speaker 00

  One of the things that seems to be the case in a lot of the people that have had, um, these bad experiences is that they try to fight it and that they, they try to battle with the experience. They try to take control of it. The ego gets in the way. They, they wanna regain some sort of a control over their consciousness and, and they fight with it and they have bad trips. You know, there's moments when you do psychedelics where you realize, I just gotta let it go. I just gotta realize that I'm not in control of this at all and just let it go. And some people can let it go and some people can't. I've seen people struggle with it. I've seen people that can't let it go and they fight with it and they have really bad trips and it's very scary to watch.

• 2:25:43Speaker 00

  But I think that's the root of it. I think the root of it is you're battling with something that you can't beat.

• 2:25:51Speaker 00

  And you just have to just let go and just take it in. Here we go. Just go on the ride. And some people can't go on the ride, like, no, and they're grabbing the walls and they're grabbing vines and they're trying to stop their progression. They don't wanna do it, like, it's too scary for them. They don't wanna let go, they don't wanna, they don't wanna erode their belief system. They don't want to expand their view of the world, they're just too, it's too scary. They have a problem with fear, they have a problem with the unknown, they have a problem with having this very isolated view of reality and having that shattered in front of them. Uh, they, they don't feel comfortable with that and they, they try to, they try to resist it.

• 2:26:37Speaker 00

  I think that's what's going on.

• 2:26:41Speaker 00

  Maybe you have to understand like what it is and you have to understand that you're not in control and you gotta let it go.

• 2:26:48Speaker 00

  You gotta go for the ride.

• 2:26:51Speaker 00

  But that's also me saying that and my psyche is very different than another person's psyche and theirs is different than yours and everyone, everyone's different. Everyone has different experiences, different psychological vulnerabilities, different, you know.

• 2:27:03Speaker 01

  Right, yeah, yeah.

• 2:27:05Speaker 00

  Yeah. Um, we were talking before the podcast about the Shroud of Turin.

• 2:27:11Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:27:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, and you were-

• 2:27:13Speaker 01

  And we, by the way, we brought that up last time I was here and that happened by accident, remember?

• 2:27:18Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 2:27:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, so a lot of people have been talking about that since we talked about it.

• 2:27:23Speaker 00

  Yeah. Um, you were saying something though that the piece that they used for, um, carbon dating, that this is a piece that had been repaired, but I saw there's a lot of dispute about that online.

• 2:27:38Speaker 01

  It could be, yeah.

• 2:27:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, a lot of people say that that is just some sort of apologetic excuse for why the numbers don't match up correctly. But then I've also seen things that say that the pollen that is on the, the fibers matches up with the, the exact kind of plants that existed in Jerusalem 2,000 years ago and that that all aligns and that further testing needs to be done to determine the actual date of it. That, that aside, there's still no explanation for why that image exists and how it was created.

• 2:28:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:28:18Speaker 00

  And, um, I've never seen anyone explain in any way that makes any sense how that could have been forged by someone, how it could have been a forgery from someone that long ago that they could figure it out. Also, they could make it a, a, a, a reversed negative image, so the only way you see it is through, when you look at it in a negative-

• 2:28:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know, it's pretty crazy, yeah.

• 2:28:42Speaker 00

  That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

• 2:28:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:28:45Speaker 00

  Whatever it is, is, it's really weird.

• 2:28:48Speaker 01

  It is totally weird and there are people who, there is a guy who's a, a doctor of like blood, a hematologist, and he's, he seems to have no, he, he's not religious, um, or he's not like, you know, uh, out there advocating for religion and he just happened to study it, um, he studied the blood and again, he was like, and the, the, uh, injuries, you know, cause he can study the injuries and identify and they match up and, I mean, I'm not an expert on the shroud, but believe me, every expert that's out there since I was on your podcast a few years ago, have, they've reached out to me and they're like, tell Joe to get me on and so forth and, um-

• 2:29:32Speaker 00

  Do you know someone that's a real good credible expert?

• 2:29:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know someone, well, that man I think has a good video out there, check him out. Um, I don't know his name, but he's, I mean, you should be able to find if you, uh, do a search, yeah.

• 2:29:46Speaker 03

  I think this would be him.

• 2:29:48Speaker 00

  New study claims blood stains in the Shroud of Turin consistent with torture of Christ.

• 2:29:53Speaker 01

  That's not, he doesn't have an Italian name, the one I know, but I mean, that could be too, I mean, he could be out there doing that. Um, the guy that, that we found, I can send you the link, but he's, he's an American guy and he's just, you know, he doesn't have a fancy video or anything like that, it's just, but there's another guy who's Catholic called, um, his name is Father Dalton and he's, this is his expertise, he knows about this, now he's theological, but he actually does have studies and so forth.

• 2:30:23Speaker 00

  And what is, what is unique about his perspective?

• 2:30:27Speaker 01

  So his perspective is that, first you have to understand the Catholic Church is very careful about what they put their, you know, what they say is true and not true. It takes them forever to say something's a miracle and often when they identify something as being miraculous, they have a huge, uh, team of people, often who are the best at what they do, they, and they might not be Catholic, okay, they could be atheists and so forth. So, this was studied at Duke University, the Shroud of Turin in the 1980s and I happen to know a priest who was a graduate student there in PhD program and he witnessed the whole study.

• 2:31:07Speaker 01

  So, Father Dalton would be a person who is Catholic, obviously, he is a priest, however, he is not going to say, you know, he's gonna give you the facts about each of the studies and he's gonna talk specifically about, uh, what we don't know, what we don't know about it, what, you know, might be, it, as a Catholic, you have to say, this is not, we don't know about that, like, yeah, you're right, it could be this or that. Same thing with the Guadalupe tilma, right? So, you know, a lot of people say it was created by God and, you know, put on this, you know about that, right? So the, the Guadalupe image of the Virgin of Guadalupe in Mexico City that was miraculous, said to be miraculously put, well, there are some, you know, things that have been

• 2:31:51Speaker 01

  added later, so I think the shroud is like that also. Um, but, there, and there's been a lot of studies by-

• 2:31:59Speaker 00

  What's so interesting about this Guadalupe thing?

• 2:32:02Speaker 01

  So this is a, um, this is a tilma, which is a cloak, it's from, this is from the 1500s. So, this is that, an image that allegedly, according to devotional Catholicism, this image was imparted onto this cloak, uh, and the cloak was, was, uh, worn by a guy, by the way, I think, I'm not sure, but, uh, you know Mel Gibson's Icon, like, he, I think that might be the, part of this, I'm not entirely sure. But, so, here you have something that is unexplainable.

• 2:32:43Speaker 01

  A part of it is explainable because after the image was put on, people had painted over it, like, I don't know, a hundred years later and subsequently, you know, just to upkeep it, that, I think the angel was added, a couple of things were added later, uh, but it's, it's, it's not as anomalous as the Shroud of Turin-

• 2:33:03Speaker 00

  But, but honestly, you have to explain this well.

• 2:33:05Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:33:05Speaker 00

  What is unexplainable about this painting?

• 2:33:08Speaker 01

  Okay, so this appears to be a painting, but underneath there's an image and the image is, uh, is the Virgin Mary herself without her cloak, without the angel and without the sun around her. And this image is allegedly had been put on this guy's cloak, um, Juan Diego's cloak in the 1500s. So, he was, he had a, she wanted a basilica, which by the way, she's in right now, and that's what she asked for. The bishop at the time said, I don't believe you, Juan Diego, uh, you have to show me proof.

• 2:33:50Speaker 01

  So, he went back to the place where he had seen her and she said, go up and get a bunch of flowers and put them in this cloak of yours and then bring them to the bishop. You know, they're out of season, they don't grow in Mexico. So, he did, he went, he got the flowers, he went back to the bishop in Mexico City and he gave them to him and when they opened it up, there was an image of the Virgin Mary on the cloak and that's where, that's, this is what that's supposed to be.

• 2:34:21Speaker 00

  I still don't understand why that's unique, it's just a, a painting.

• 2:34:25Speaker 03

  No, no, I'm painting, it just showed up, like, it was just there.

• 2:34:28Speaker 00

  Okay, well, what's it made out of? Like, what is, what is the ink? What is, what is the dye?

• 2:34:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, okay, so, all right, so this is where it gets complicated. Um, so the original cloak is agave material, it's made out of like, um, you know, agave-

• 2:34:44Speaker 00

  Agave plant?

• 2:34:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, and the original image appears to be the agave plant fibers somehow. The image was from the fibers, it's not paint, there's no drawing-

• 2:34:58Speaker 00

  But these colors?

• 2:35:00Speaker 01

  Okay, so the colors of the cloak around her, that's later, in a later addition.

• 2:35:08Speaker 00

  Okay, how do we know that?

• 2:35:11Speaker 01

  Uh, art historians have looked at it, like, people who do, they use infrared photography and they're able to identify, uh, the layers of it.

• 2:35:19Speaker 00

  So that the image existed originally and then people painted over the image?

• 2:35:24Speaker 01

  Well, they painted around it, they kind of embellished it.

• 2:35:27Speaker 00

  So where can we see the original?

• 2:35:30Speaker 03

  I'm looking, I mean, it's hard to get that picture, cause time-

• 2:35:33Speaker 00

  That to me is not as interesting, is the Shroud of Turin.

• 2:35:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I agree, they're both really-

• 2:35:38Speaker 00

  Also, it's painted over already, it's like, it's already been sort of bastardized.

• 2:35:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:35:44Speaker 00

  That's, the Shroud of Turin's just weird because it's not ink.

• 2:35:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:35:48Speaker 00

  It's not dye, it, it seems to be some sort of, like, like it's burned in somehow or another.

• 2:35:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:35:56Speaker 00

  Right?

• 2:35:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, so if you got someone on here to talk about it, I would either get Father Dalton or I would get that doctor.

• 2:36:02Speaker 00

  I would want someone to dismiss it as well, I would want two people to talk about it.

• 2:36:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I think that would be a great, I'd love to see it.

• 2:36:10Speaker 00

  Because, uh, what you're saying about the parts of the fabric that had been repaired and that's what they did the radiocarbon dating on, I've heard that disputed online.

• 2:36:19Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:36:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, but that would be a thing that you would say if you wanted to really believe that it was more than 2,000 years old, you would say, oh, no, no, no, they got the wrong piece.

• 2:36:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:36:32Speaker 00

  And also, why was it repaired? Like, why would someone repair it?

• 2:36:36Speaker 01

  Well, because it's, it's a, it's a devotional cloth for the Catholic Church, so they're gonna keep it, you know-

• 2:36:42Speaker 00

  By adding more cloth to it?

• 2:36:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, because it'll, you know, disintegrate or whatnot, I mean, it's been making the rounds for a long time.

• 2:36:50Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:36:53Speaker 00

  Yeah. Uh, I don't know.

• 2:36:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, it says it was found in 1350 and they don't know how it got to where it was.

• 2:37:01Speaker 00

  And don't they, yeah, that's right, and don't, don't they say that, that's the, when they do the radiocarbon dating, it goes back to around that area? I think it goes to like the 1200s. That's where they think it came from, that's where it originated.

• 2:37:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, so even if it did, it's still anomalous, it's still weird.

• 2:37:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's definitely weird, it's weird in the sense that it wasn't painted, it's not dye, that it seems to have been created by energy.

• 2:37:32Speaker 00

  What is the, uh, conventional description for how it was made? Let's see that, let's see what it says. What's the conventional description?

• 2:37:56Speaker 00

  Let's see. How is it made? Rectangular linen cloth, 4.4 meters long, 1.1 meters wide, bearing the faint front and back image of a bearded crucified man. Conventional description how it was made as a physical object, material, hand-woven woven linen made from flax fibers, weave, thread, side strip. Okay, but what about the image? Okay, a faint sepia. Is that how you say that word?

• 2:38:25Speaker 01

  Sepia.

• 2:38:26Speaker 00

  Sepia. Straw yellow image shows a man with wounds consistent with crucifix- crucifixion, crucifixion, rather. Um, side wound, wounds at the wrists and feet, puncture marks around the scalp. Conventional skeptical mainstream explanation for how the image was produced falls into a few camps. Medieval painting pigmentation, pigment application. Uh, uh, uh, uh, reported finding red ochre and vermilion pigments in a gelatin, gelatin collagen tempura binder, concluding it was painted in the 14th century. This remains the dominant skeptical explanation. Rubbing or, uh, bas relief transfer technique.

• 2:39:09Speaker 00

  Researchers like Joel Nickel have reproduced shroud-like images by rubbing dry pigment iron oxide over cloth laid on the bas relief sculpture, producing the same negative image. Surface-only characteristic acid scorch or chemical staining technique. Dating 1988 radiocarbon test performed independently by labs at Oxford, Arizona and Zurich, dated the flax to 1260 to 1390 CE with a 95% confidence squarely in the medieval period, consistent with its documented appearance in Leary around 1355. Under the conventional view, this dating settles the question.

• 2:39:51Speaker 00

  It's a medieval artifact likely produced as a devotional or pilgrimage object during the period when relic veneration was a booming industry.

• 2:40:07Speaker 00

  Hmm, okay. So what they're saying is it's made with pigment, but I thought it wasn't made with pigment.

• 2:40:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, and also that there are blood stains on it.

• 2:40:18Speaker 00

  Actual blood?

• 2:40:19Speaker 01

  Well, that's what it's supposed to be.

• 2:40:23Speaker 00

  Right, but is any, that's what it's supposed to be. But has anybody ever done a study, a ta- any sort of tests on that? The blood stains are real human blood applied before the image was formed.

• 2:40:35Speaker 03

  This is what shroud proponents say.

• 2:40:36Speaker 00

  Shroud proponents can test all the above, arguing the C4 sample came from medieval repair patch, that no reproduction fully matches the image's properties, uh, superficially of the 200 nanometer 3D encoded distance information, no brush strokes, and that the blood stains are real human blood applied before the image formed. But the mainstream conventional description remains 14th century linen cloth with hand-produced image made in France as a religious artifact.

• 2:41:09Speaker 00

  Hmm, dun, dun, dun.

• 2:41:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:41:12Speaker 00

  The thing is, people want to believe that it's the shroud that Jesus was buried in, right?

• 2:41:17Speaker 01

  Well, people do want to believe it, but I don't, I didn't necessarily want to believe it. Like, I've had, I used to not believe it.

• 2:41:24Speaker 00

  Do you believe it now?

• 2:41:25Speaker 01

  Definitely, yeah.

• 2:41:26Speaker 00

  Why definitely?

• 2:41:27Speaker 01

  Um, because of the, the information by the blood doctor guy, which I hate to keep calling him that. I wish I knew who's, what his name was. And also my friend who was at the shroud analysis at Duke University, and, uh, also like what Father Dalton talks about. You know, I mean, the thing is, is that it looks pretty weird.

• 2:41:50Speaker 00

  It's definitely weird.

• 2:41:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, so, yeah, so I believe it. But I'm not, like, I can't prove that.

• 2:41:55Speaker 00

  I understand.

• 2:41:56Speaker 01

  And I'm not gonna, that's why I do religious studies, by the way. I'm not a theologian. I can't say, yes, you must believe this. I don't know. I, I believe it. That's what I can say.

• 2:42:04Speaker 03

  Is that Dr. John Campbell?

• 2:42:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that's him.

• 2:42:06Speaker 03

  He's got 3 million subscribers on YouTube.

• 2:42:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, that's him, yeah, that's him.

• 2:42:09Speaker 00

  Okay, but why do you, I still understand. Why do you believe? If it turns out that these people are all saying the truth, that it was made with, it would dye.

• 2:42:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, of course, then I'll just change my perception because I have new data. I will change my theory. Like, right now, I believe it's the truth.

• 2:42:28Speaker 00

  But that data does exist, that it's made with dye.

• 2:42:32Speaker 01

  Okay, so there dye could have put on, been put on it. I believe that there is a, an image on it. There is an image on it. How did that image get there? That image, so this is the kind of thing that, things could have been done with it. It was repaired. It was, you know, it went through many hands. I mean, I am a person who knows about Catholic relics. I know what happens to them. So, these are things that would be normal in the life of a relic, that they would be handled sometimes with care, sometimes with not, not with care. Um, so, yeah, that's my belief, Joe. Like, if I get, you know, analysis from somebody like Gary Nolan, and he does this, like, you know,

• 2:43:15Speaker 01

  microscopic analysis of everything and says, no, Diana, sorry, this is not, you know, I'll be, oh, that's too bad. I really enjoyed having that belief for 10 years.

• 2:43:24Speaker 00

  But it seems like if the radiocarbon dating was from 1988, like, shouldn't we do some sort of an updated

• 2:43:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course.

• 2:43:30Speaker 00

  analysis of what this thing is?

• 2:43:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's right.

• 2:43:33Speaker 00

  To settle it?

• 2:43:34Speaker 01

  Totally. Yeah, I'm all for that.

• 2:43:37Speaker 00

  That's a good question. Where is it now? Where's it live?

• 2:43:40Speaker 03

  Is it like a Devattan somewhere?

• 2:43:42Speaker 01

  I think, honestly, I think it's in Turin. But I could be wrong.

• 2:43:46Speaker 00

  Oh, really?

• 2:43:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, in Italy.

• 2:43:47Speaker 00

  Oh, wow.

• 2:43:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, I could be wrong, though, but I think it is.

• 2:43:51Speaker 00

  Can you look at it and go there and look at it?

• 2:43:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think you can.

• 2:43:54Speaker 03

  Yep. It's in the Cathro, Cathedral of St. John the Baptist in Turin, Italy. It's been housed there since 1578. Okay, so that's what it's always been.

• 2:44:03Speaker 00

  Amazing, no one's trying to steal it.

• 2:44:07Speaker 01

  Don't say that.

• 2:44:08Speaker 00

  Why?

• 2:44:12Speaker 03

  What I mean, would they have ever made a fake to hide the real one? And that's like maybe we're testing the fake one?

• 2:44:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, that could be, yeah, that could be.

• 2:44:18Speaker 00

  Dun, dun, dun.

• 2:44:19Speaker 03

  The plot thickens. The real ones got special powers or something, if you put it on?

• 2:44:21Speaker 00

  The plot thickens.

• 2:44:24Speaker 00

  Um, anything else should we talk about before we wrap this up? Is there anything else we didn't cover?

• 2:44:30Speaker 01

  No, you have a, you have an alien image up here, and he has horns, looks like a demon.

• 2:44:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's the mothership logo. Comedy mothership.

• 2:44:39Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, okay.

• 2:44:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:44:41Speaker 01

  Just saying.

• 2:44:43Speaker 00

  I know. There's no real significance to it, though, it's just fun.

• 2:44:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course, of course.

• 2:44:49Speaker 00

  Allegedly.

• 2:44:52Speaker 00

  I see you did notice that, though. It is weird. I get it, especially after we're talking. I should have showed that to JD. I'm like, you think that's a demon?

• 2:45:00Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah, he may have noticed it and chose not to say anything.

• 2:45:04Speaker 00

  I don't think he did.

• 2:45:05Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:45:06Speaker 00

  I think he probably would have brought it up.

• 2:45:10Speaker 00

  So, nothing, nothing else to, is there anything else you wanted to talk about before we wrap this up?

• 2:45:14Speaker 01

  I just published a book. It came out yesterday called The Others.

• 2:45:17Speaker 00

  And what is it about?

• 2:45:19Speaker 01

  Uh, it's about stuff we've been talking about, but it's also about religion and about the spiritual sense and things like that, and AI. So it has a, it has a, a theory of ET. If, if, you know, we're talking about ET. It has a theory of ET in it and a couple other things, so, yeah.

• 2:45:39Speaker 00

  Uh, what is your theory of ET?

• 2:45:41Speaker 01

  Well, I'm, I'm, uh, rehousing some theories. So I'm, like, the theory of, uh, advanced technology being what people are encountering when they're encountering what they consider to be aliens and ET. We talked a little bit about this last time. It was something that I was thinking of it. Uh, and I just, uh, rehashed it. So it's, it's there in the book in a more developed form. Uh, if I were to just do an elevator description of it, though, uh, I would say that Steven Spielberg's film AI is a really good film about ET and what he thinks, you know, if ET were, I know he's just done Disclosure Day, but it, but his movie AI seems like-

• 2:46:25Speaker 00

  When was that movie?

• 2:46:26Speaker 01

  It was a long time ago, but it's really good if you re-watch it today. Um, at the end, I'm not gonna do, well, people should have seen it already, right? At the end, there are, uh, aliens, and they're basically, humans have long since gone, and their technology, their AI, has improved itself to the point where it's a life form. And so that would be like the theory of-

• 2:46:53Speaker 00

  I think that's probably-

• 2:46:54Speaker 03

  2001.

• 2:46:55Speaker 00

  Oh, wow.

• 2:46:56Speaker 03

  Helidrosa. Raptor science, I think.

• 2:46:58Speaker 00

  I kind of remember this.

• 2:47:00Speaker 03

  True law.

• 2:47:01Speaker 01

  It's about AI, but at the end, it ends up being kind of like a, a theory of, of ET.

• 2:47:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, which is, I kind of have a feeling that life eventually stops being biological and becomes digital, and maybe that's what people are encountering.

• 2:47:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's what The Others is, it has a chapter, two chapters about that, yeah.

• 2:47:25Speaker 00

  All right. Well, Diana, it's always fascinating talking to you.

• 2:47:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, you too.

• 2:47:29Speaker 00

  I really enjoyed it.

• 2:47:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, thank you.

• 2:47:30Speaker 00

  Thank you very much. Uh, did you do the audiobook or did you have an actor do it?

• 2:47:34Speaker 01

  No, I did it.

• 2:47:35Speaker 00

  Thank you. It's always better. It really is. It's always better when an au- an author actually does the audiobook. There it is. The Others, UFO, AI, and the Secret Forces Guiding Human Destiny. Dun, dun, dun. And I really loved your other book, too, American Cosmetics.

• 2:47:53Speaker 01

  Oh, thank you, thank you. Appreciate that. All right, thank you so much.

• 2:47:55Speaker 00

  Thank you, thank you for being here. Let's do it again sometime.

• 2:47:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, let's do it.

• 2:47:58Speaker 00

  Next time, we got another book.

• 2:47:59Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:47:59Speaker 00

  I'm sure you're gonna keep writing. All right.

• 2:48:01Speaker 01

  Next time, yeah, about Christianity, probably.

• 2:48:03Speaker 00

  Okay, cool, we'll do it. All right, thank you. Bye, everybody.