#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson

Josh Dubin is the Executive Director of the Perlmutter Center for Legal Justice, a criminal justice reform advocate, and civil rights attorney. https://cardozo.yu.edu/directory/josh-dubin J. D. Tomlinson is a lawyer and was previously Lorain County Prosecutor in Ohio. https://www.freetheohio4.com/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The Joe Rogan Experience. Training by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day.

• 0:12Joe Rogan?

  Josh Dubin, my man, introduce your friend.

• 0:15Speaker 02

  This is gonna be wild. This is J.D. Tomlinson, the former prosecuting attorney for Lorraine County, Ohio. And for the listeners, prosecuting attorney is similar to a DA in most jurisdictions. They just call it the prosecuting attorney. He was the head attorney in Lorraine County, Ohio.

• 0:39Joe Rogan?

  That's correct.

• 0:40Speaker 02

  Up until January.

• 0:42Joe Rogan?

  So, the reason why that's significant is the last time we were here, we were talking about that case, the case of the Ohio Four. So, let's, why don't you recap that for everybody, for people that didn't listen to the previous podcast, where we talked about this.

• 0:58Speaker 02

  So, the Ohio Four are four gentlemen that were wrongfully convicted of a murder they didn't commit. And the last time I came on, we talked extensively about the case. You could read about it at freetheohiofour.com. We have, on that site, my submission that I made to J.D. when he was the prosecuting attorney, and all the exhibits supporting it. But what happened is this woman is murdered in the 90s, and these four men become suspects, actually, before there's any evidence against them whatsoever.

• 1:40Speaker 02

  In two and a half decades of doing post-conviction work, I had never seen the police put in an affidavit, where they're, excuse me, not an affidavit, a police report when they're investigating this murder, that these four men are people we should look at. Based on nothing other than there was a lot of commotion in the community, understandably so, that there were people from out of town selling drugs. No question, my client and these other three guys were involved in selling drugs. And they wanted drugs off the street in Lorraine. So, they immediately start looking at them.

• 2:26Speaker 02

  This woman is found behind a shopping center horribly savagely murdered. She's stabbed multiple times, her throat is cut. Her name is Marsha Blakely. She'd been run over by a car. It was obvious because there were tire marks on her body. And several hours later that morning, someone that she lived with, a gentleman by the name of Epps, was found murdered in strikingly similar fashion. So, the police are investigating this crime and run into a dead end. They have no leads, they don't have any evidence, and they're searching for the perpetrators.

• 3:11Speaker 02

  So, the Lorraine County Prosecutor's Office goes public with the offer of an award. They offer $2,500 to anybody that has information about this crime. The next day, or a couple of days later, in walks a man named William Avery Sr., who is no stranger to the Lorraine County Police Department. He had been a paid informant for them for a long time. And he comes in and he speaks to detectives, and they say, in essence, they say, "Everything you're telling us has been public. You know, you need to give us more information."

• 3:54Speaker 02

  He then, that week, brings his son in, William Avery Jr., and his son claims to have information about the case. And they tell him, "You know, you're not telling us enough." He comes back about a week later, and he says, "Well, I know the guys that did this." And he blames the murder on Al Cleveland, John Edwards, Lenworth Edwards, and Benson Davis. And he claims that Al Cleveland confessed it to him.

• 4:32Speaker 02

  So, they start investigating this man, William Avery Jr.'s, account of what happened. And what he is telling them happened does not match the physical...

• 4:49Speaker 02

  State of this apartment where he claims this beating happened. So, this is like one of the telltale ways to tell if someone is falsely confessing to you, or falsely implicating others. He tells them that there's this horrific beating of this victim that occurs in an apartment. And, they go to the apartment, I mean, chairs turned over, tables turned over, a bloody, knock down, drag out, fight for her life. And they go to the apartment and take pictures. And it's in the most pristine condition you can imagine. Not a chair turned over, not a table. And they immediately had reason to know that this guy was bullshitting.

• 5:30Speaker 02

  Because, he then comes and says to them, you know, "I have other details." And the more details he gives them, the less it's matching up with the evidence that they have. So, they're trying these four men separately. When the first trial happens, William Avery Jr. has an idea. And his idea is, "I'm gonna extort these people for money." He shows up at the trial, and he tells the prosecutors, "I want $10,000." And the prosecutor said to him, "What are you talking about? You have to testify. You got the reward money."

• 6:14Speaker 02

  And he says, "I'm not testifying." They put him in jail for contempt. And, he says, "I made the whole thing up anyways. I did it for the reward money, I made it up." They should've known right then and there, before any of these four men were tried, that this was someone that led them down the wrong path. But instead of doing that, they keep him in jail. I don't remember if it was for 30 days or 60 days. And, they let him cool his heels a little bit. The judge in the trial calls a mistrial. And, when there's a mistrial, you can try someone again.

• 6:53Speaker 02

  So, about a month goes by, and William Avery Jr.'s story has now evolved. He now no longer claims that Al Cleveland confessed to him. He claims that he was a witness to it.

• 7:08Speaker 02

  And what happens in that intervening month, I think people can draw their own obvious conclusions about what happens, but suffice to say, it's my opinion and my belief that they did a number on this guy. So he goes on to testify at all four of their trials individually, during which time, the lead prosecutor gets a correspondence from the US Secret Service, saying that we know you use this man, William Avery Jr., as an informant. We have been using him as a paid informant in some food stamp sting, and we just caught him in a lie. And he's

• 7:52Speaker 02

  compromising our investigations because he is accepting reward money and making things up, and we're ceasing to use him as an informant, and we are investigating him for crimes in giving us false information and accepting reward money for it. So the prosecutor, you would think at that point would say, alright. It's over. Obviously, it's over. So, these guys all get sentenced and convicted to, I believe it was 25 years to life. That's right. And I became involved in the case about two years ago, year and a half ago, and dissected

• 8:34Speaker 02

  the record, and I was blown away by what I had seen, and I've seen it all. I found out that William Avery Jr. walked into the FBI in 2004, and the FBI documents it, and he says, "Look, I was a drug addict. My father had threatened me. He was a drug addict, and he made me go in there and tell a lie about these men, and falsely implicate them in a murder that they didn't commit." I'm now off drugs and I want to clear my conscience. So the FBI documents it and sends the report to the Lorraine County prosecutors.

• 9:18Speaker 02

  In 2006, Al Cleveland has an investigator searching for this man, William Avery Jr., for years. They couldn't find him. They finally find him and they get an affidavit explaining, William Avery Jr. explains how he made the whole thing up. He recounts what he told the FBI and post conviction proceedings get scheduled and post conviction proceedings is we're going to have a hearing as to whether Al Cleveland is innocent.

• 9:49Speaker 02

  So the hearing is before a judge named Judge Roth Gary in Lorraine County and what happens in essence is that William Avery Jr. shows up to testify and the judge tells him, before you testify, you should know your rights in words or substance. And he tells him that if you testify here that these men actually didn't do it, there are potential consequences for making it up. And if you're lying now and saying they didn't do it just to help them out, there's consequences for that. So he's quickly told that he's going to be facing potential perjury charges. So he decides not to testify at that post conviction

• 10:31Speaker 02

  hearing. He walks out of the courthouse and reporters for the local paper ask him, why didn't you testify what happened? And he says, look, I made the whole thing up. These guys didn't do it, but I'm not going to jail for 25 years.

• 10:47Speaker 02

  So that's the, that is the

• 10:50Joe Rogan?

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• 11:15Joe Rogan?

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• 13:19Joe Rogan?

  Recap.

• 13:20Speaker 02

  I was at that hearing.

• 13:22Joe Rogan?

  So, this is crazy.

• 13:25Speaker 02

  I found out from Al Cleveland. Al Cleveland spent so much time in prison that he timed out and was paroled. I think he spent close to 30 years in prison. And he approached JD, and he approached JD with his wife, and it turned out that JD, as a young lawyer, was sitting at that hearing, watching it, and knew, as a young lawyer, that there was something terribly wrong. But back to, just to get listeners and viewers up to speed on where we're at. So I came on the show in November, about a week before Thanksgiving. And I laid the case out in finer detail than I just did.

• 14:06Speaker 02

  And like I said, if you want more details, you could go to freetheohio4.com, and my submission to JD, and all the exhibits are there. But that's basically the story, as I told it. Yeah. So I had been trying to get in touch with JD, because he was running for reelection. He had listed his cellphone number on the internet. So I had a cellphone number, and I was sending him text messages, and emails, and calling him, and I was getting ghosted. We had communicated for a little bit beforehand, is that true? No, sir. No. No, sir. So I couldn't get in touch with him.

• 14:49Speaker 02

  And then, as I'm trying to get in touch with him, prior to my coming on the show, and speaking to you about it in November, JD gets indicted.

• 15:01Speaker 02

  Oh, excuse me. Charged by complaint. No, he gets charged by complaint. No grand jury. They charged him with three felonies. And I take a look, and I see that he's running against someone, and that person that he's running against is posting about the fact that he was charged with three felonies. And I'm like, alright, well, this seems like a political witch hunt. I don't know much about it, but it seems like a tactic. So I came on the show, and I said, "Look, I know this guy's up against it. Hopefully, he now knows what it's like to be accused of something he didn't do." And I said... He's either under so much stress or isn't tech savvy enough.

• 15:45Speaker 04

  Both.

• 15:46Speaker 02

  To know that every time I text him and say, please, I just need five minutes of your time. I could see he's reading my texts because he had his read receipts on and he didn't know it.

• 15:55Speaker 04

  Whoopsies. I learned, Joe. I learned.

• 15:59Speaker 02

  So I leave Austin, fly back to New York. I'm in New York. The episode aired, I think, at 12:00 PM or 1:00 PM Eastern Time. And at about 5:30, I see on my phone J.D. Tomlinson. And I said, I was about to teach my, my law school class, these kids that, at the Cardozo Law School, that take the Freedom Clinic at the Perlmutter Center for Legal Justice. They all know about the case. They know what just happened. I was like, holy shit. This guy is trying to get in touch with me now. And I picked up the phone. I said, hello?

• 16:43Speaker 02

  And he said, Josh, this is J.D. Tomlinson. He's like, hey, man. He said, I've been under a lot of stress. You got, there's people calling and emailing and flooding our office. You gotta make this stop. And I said, that's the Jerome factor. There's no stopping what can't be stopped.

• 17:01Speaker 04

  Inevitable.

• 17:01Speaker 02

  So I, uh, it was, it had its intended effect. And J.D. and I got into a discussion right away. And I had to quickly figure out a way to connect with him and tell him, I feel your pain. I hear what you're going through. And he told me, listen, I'm fighting for my life over here. These people have upended my life. They're threatening my freedom. I've been charged with crimes I didn't commit. And I just quickly pivoted and I said, if you just give me a date, I want to come down. And I want to just show you. You now know what this is like. These, imagine going through this for 30 years.

• 17:40Speaker 02

  So I, I have to say, in all my years of doing this, considering the circumstances that he was in. For him to say, you know, he was wrestling with it on the call. And he said, you know, I'll never forget what he said to me. He said, you know, if I don't at least agree to meet with you, then who am I?

• 18:06Speaker 02

  And I said, "Thank you." And he said, "I just don't know if there's time, but I owe you at least a meeting." And given what he was going through and what he was up against, and he knew the case well. He had had the Ohio Innocence Project had presented to him years earlier. And he knew the case well, so he, I think he had a sense that there was something really wrong going on.

• 18:27Speaker 04

  And I'd exonerated two people prior to that, so I had some experience in that.

• 18:31Speaker 02

  Well, you're gonna get to that. The way that J.D. made enemies in Ohio, in that town, is because he had the audacity. He had the nerve to say, "I see two innocent people in another case, and I'm gonna exonerate them." And that is the beginning of his issues in Ohio. So, I mean, if you want to hear from J.D.'s perspective, because what ensued and what has happened in the months since has been one of the most shocking, disturbing, you know, frankly,

• 19:10Speaker 02

  disgusting displays of what I think is ego and abuse of the system, in my opinion. That two of these four men are still in prison. And two of them are only out because they paroled out, but they're on parole as convicted murderers for a crime they didn't commit. So, I mean, I don't know, it'd be interesting to hear J.D.'s perspective on that call. And I then met with him right before Thanksgiving. And we had a big rally in Ohio. Derek Hamilton, who's the deputy director of the Pearl Mother Center, was there. We organized a bunch of folks in the community, a lot of coverage on local news.

• 19:53Speaker 02

  And then the next day, I met with J.D. and his team and presented essentially about a two-hour, three-hour closing argument, where I showed him all the evidence in the case.

• 20:05Joe Rogan?

  JD, what was the whole experience like for you? Like, starting from the first contact with Josh and, you know, how your situation unfolded where you were getting wrongfully accused?

• 20:20Speaker 04

  Yeah, it all really started is because I had developed a relationship with a woman in my office, who I had known for many years. And that was a mistake on my part. And it was contentious. It was really beautiful for a long time, like many relationships are. And then it started to entangle, disentangle. And

• 20:39Joe Rogan?

  Shocker.

• 20:39Speaker 04

  Yeah, right. I mean, and it was all my fault, Joe. I mean, I'm really contrite about the situation because I'm very aware of my mistakes. And I've made amends with her. And thankfully, she has accepted my apologies. Because I put her in a position where she should have never been in, as being an employee of mine. But I had known her for 19 years. I had never really been at the head of such a big office. I mean, it's about 100 people. So for me, it was a really big thing. And there's a romance that goes with kind of winning an election and coming in, trying to make a difference. I think it swept us up and we really genuinely cared about each other. But then it started to kind of fail and it was my fault. And I brought a lot of toxicity to the relationship that I and I don't like the word toxic. I don't know why I don't.

• 21:21Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's compromised today.

• 21:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, it is. It is. It is. But that's exactly probably what it was. And so I'm lucky that but so anyways, there was arguments that were caught, you know, on camera with her and I, that were released to the public. And it showed us, you know, me arguing with her and raising my voice. And so it was an extremely embarrassing time in my life. But so this was all happening amidst this. And so it really, it all really did start happening when I exonerated those Nancy Smith and Joseph Allen. In 2022, my life changed. Because I knew there would be consequences to actions like that. Because it creates financial problems. People are suing people in federal courts. Um, uh, so it causes problems even in the sense that I was very close with police. I was a, I was a county prosecutor.

• 22:06Speaker 04

  Um, I was, I'm a very pro policeman. And so it was difficult, uh, the, the strain that it put on some of the police departments, even though it was an old case. You know, I'm still friends with a lot of these detectives and to sort of make decisions like that where you have to kind of disagree. Uh, it can be difficult. It could strain relationships and, uh, but I really didn't realize the extent of, of how much it would do it. So when I exonerated Nancy Smith and Joseph Allen, which is one of the worst cases I've ever seen, um, I thought that it was the worst case I'd ever seen. Uh, and then I got Josh's case. And, uh, after I was going through all that hardship, uh, basically on October 1st of 2024, I was charged with three felonies. Tampering with records, intimidation and bribery.

• 22:48Speaker 04

  It was shocking to me because, uh, I couldn't figure out what the conduct was that they were referring to. So what in essence it was is, is because of that fallout from the videos that were released and, and she didn't have a partner releasing the videos. And so she had called us in the summer time, even though we weren't really talking a bunch and she had kind of expressed her sorrow that those videos had gotten out. Uh, and that she didn't intend for them to, and that she kind of wanted some help with, with the media about how can we kind of help a little bit with the PR. And my partner and my chief of staff, Jim Burge, who's a legend unto itself, unto himself. Um, he's the best writer I've ever seen. So he wrote a statement, uh, and we were supposed to be prepared, uh, for her lawyers

• 23:32Speaker 04

  if they wanted to review it and see if they agreed with it or change it or anything like that. So, uh, and, and to prove that that's what occurred was I have text messages from her on the day that, uh, Jim wrote the statement that says, you know, I trust Jim and his, and his, and his magic pen because she knew how good of a writer he was. And then the next day, when I'm supposed to be intimidating him according, according to the state, when I'm supposed to intimidate her, according to the state, you know, you know, she, I received a text message apologizing to this situation that we're in because I, I, we both were just really. It was dramatic to have your personal life right in even a small town like that. It was dramatic. So, um, so that's really what happened with, but what they alleged was they alleged that we had created this, this false narrative, this false document, and then intimidated her

• 24:15Speaker 04

  into adopting it. That was the allegation, which is completely, completely false. And, uh, and we had all the evidence to prove it. So I was fairly confident in my case because I'm a lawyer. I've defended, I was a defense attorney for 15 years before I took office. So I'm fairly knowledgeable about what constitutes a good case or not. And I had a great case. Um, but the stress that it put on my family and my mother and my father, just awful. You know, I have nieces and nephews. I'm a bachelor, but I've got nieces and nephews with my last name and that really bothered me. And so while I'm battling with this, the interesting thing, I'm charged on October 1st, on October 4th, and they had, once we broke up in, in 23, they had kind of been courting her because they knew that she was my weakness. Um, that

• 24:58Speaker 04

  the contentious relationship, and I think they were hoping that they would turn her on me. Um, and so they did as much as it to, uh, to exploit and try to, try to utilize our relationship against me. In fact, the lead detective that was investigating her, us, uh, was attempting to sleep with her at the same time, attempting to sleep with her. I have text messages, asking for nude photographs, um, asking to go over her house. This is while he's investigating me, Joe. He's trying to sleep with my girlfriend. Saying stuff like, um, you should get back at him. You should get back at him.

• 25:29Joe Rogan?

  How dumb is this guy to make this in text messages?

• 25:31Speaker 04

  I couldn't believe it. When I, when, when she, when she sho-

• 25:34Joe Rogan?

  You just wanna, you wanna think the people that are evil, that are manipulating people and falsely trying people, they're like evil geniuses.

• 25:40Speaker 04

  Joe, it was extraordinary. That's why at first I didn't believe it. I was like, why would he write it? Why would he do that? And then I, and then she shared those, those, uh, messages with me. She showed me them. I didn't get to actually physically, and then later I, I acknowledged it. But, but so what it all occurred was, was in 2020, I, I won an election. I, I went against my own party and I ran in a primary and I ended up winning. And then my, my, my relationship with the sheriff, who actually ended up investigating me for this case that I'm referring to. Um, we had a pretty good relationship there for the first couple of months when I had got elected. I had asked for a couple of my deputies to be depo- or a couple of my investigators to be deputized, which is a pretty standard procedure. He agreed. And then, and then he hired the individual that I had defeated in the election. And the whole attitude changed. Everything changed. It was now very contentious.

• 26:25Speaker 04

  Um, he had withdrawn his, uh, desire to, uh, deputize my investigators. The relationship turned very sour very fast when he hired my, um, my predecessor, which is unusual to have a lawyer working in the sheriff's department anyways, because statutorily, I'm the lawyer for the sheriff's department. So it's an unusual move to even hire a lawyer in a sheriff's department. You could probably get two deputies for that kind of money. So it was unusual in a sense. And then, so the relationship just soured and it was kind of like they were coming after me immediately. And then in late 23, they actually hired then the guy that's running against me, another lawyer, who was a former employee of mine, who's now the Lorraine County prosecutor. They had hired him. So the, the, the, the agency that was investigating me had hired my predecessor and then the

• 27:10Speaker 04

  individual who was now running against me, uh, for the office. Uh, two lawyers, first of all, in a smaller town, I mean, it's, we have about thirty, three hundred thousand, uh, tenth maybe out of the 88 counties in Lorraine County. It's fairly high, but it's a small town. To hire two lawyers on a, on a sheriff's department is unusual. And they were both my political enemies. And then the, then the detective that's investigating me is attempting to sleep with my, my girlfriend. So if you can think of a less objective investigation, Joe, I'm all ears, you know?

• 27:39Joe Rogan?

  What a fun workplace environment.

• 27:40Speaker 04

  I'm telling you.

• 27:41Joe Rogan?

  What was it like going to, going to that office every day?

• 27:44Speaker 04

  It was, uh, it was, it was wild. So, so really what happened was on October 1st, they charged me with the, with the felonies. I was flabbergasted because I was kind of so confident in, in their inability to ever get anything like that on me, that I was kind of boasting in the sense of, hey, all you had to do is go to a Laramie municipal court, grab a complaint, you can do it, never thinking that it would actually happen. Yeah. Because I, I was very confident that I did anything, nothing illegal. So. What occurred was on October 4th, um, it makes, it makes, it makes the papers on October 1st.

• 28:17Speaker 04

  October 4th, the, the woman that I had a, a relationship with, um, she, uh, she sees it in the paper. She's walking in the store and she sees it in the paper and she sees me and, uh, my chief of staff, who she's, she was very close with, and she, her instinct was to go, well, what'd they do? Like, she had no idea that the conduct that they had interviewed her about was actually the conduct they had used to, uh, to charge me. So she was wondering like, what the hell did we do? Well, you know, she had no idea. So that very same day, she sent text messages to the detective in charge. Uh, and she said, what are you guys doing? These guy, JD never bribed me. These are false charges. All this is on text message. He never bribed, what are you doing? You turned our personal life into charges against JD. This is crazy. And she was emphatic

• 29:00Speaker 04

  that she wanted to speak with me. And the problem was, uh, I had an order by the court that I was not to speak to her because her lawyer had represented that, uh, that she didn't want to speak with us. So I had, and she was trying to get to me to tell me what had happened, but I couldn't speak with her. And so she was growing more frustrated, more frustrated. Eventually she spoke to our lawyers. But what happened was that I was charged 30 days before the election and, uh, and that's devastating. I mean, and so what happened was on October 4th, when she sent the text message in, I was entitled to those text messages. Those are exculpatory. I was entitled to those immediately. And they waited a month and they waited till two days after the election on November 7th. And then they gave me the text messages that showed everything I had said was true.

• 29:42Joe Rogan?

  So dirty.

• 29:43Speaker 04

  It was, uh...

• 29:44Joe Rogan?

  Nobody wants to believe that, that politics and that law enforcement could be that dirty.

• 29:49Speaker 02

  So this is what's going on.

• 29:52Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 29:53Speaker 02

  While I'm trying to get his attention. And I have no fucking idea about anything.

• 29:58Joe Rogan?

  What a perfect storm.

• 29:59Speaker 02

  So I, I then, when I made contact with JD, he started explaining this to me. And I'm very, I, I, I approach this work like a surgeon.

• 30:15Speaker 02

  Or how I picture a surgeon would approach an operation. I'm single-handedly focused on making the kidney transplant or whatever. And however you want to analogize it. So I was hearing him, but I was kind of of the mindset that those are your problems. I understand. This sounds wild. But I said, you should now know what it feels like. Because I was pissed that he wasn't paying attention because these guys were so remarkably, in my mind, so demonstrably innocent.

• 30:49Joe Rogan?

  JD, why didn't you contact him?

• 30:52Speaker 04

  I was going through hell. I was, I had been kind of attacked. They'd been trying to get special prosecutors on me for a year.

• 30:58Joe Rogan?

  Because it was happening like in the cloud of it all. You just, you had to focus on that one thing.

• 31:01Speaker 04

  I had to completely self-preserve. And, and because, you know, I thought that I was going to be a politician for a long time, Joe, I was really passionate about it. And so it was really important to me and I had never dreamed that I would ever be charged with felonies. It's insane. So it really, we had been, Jim and I had been fighting though for a year. I mean, we were battle torn. I mean, you know, we always joked around about how we're gunfighters. You face that way, I'll face this way. And we just got to fight our way out. And it had been like that way for a year. So I was kind of just, I was stressed. It was very difficult to think about focusing my mind on anything else other than trying to exonerate myself first.

• 31:40Joe Rogan?

  Which is also good for your opponents because it makes you bad at your job.

• 31:43Speaker 04

  Awful. It gums everything up.

• 31:45Joe Rogan?

  Of course.

• 31:46Speaker 04

  I started to understand how on a national level, what it affects that has.

• 31:49Joe Rogan?

  Imagine what Trump went through.

• 31:50Speaker 04

  It's the same, it's a similar thing.

• 31:52Speaker 02

  I've said it before, I'll say it again. I don't care what your opinion is of that man, to have the medal, to face what he faced and continue on a path of getting anything accomplished, let alone what he accomplished. If you don't. Stand up and cheer for that. No, the human cost of these prosecutions, you're hearing it right now.

• 32:17Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 32:18Speaker 02

  I mean, he

• 32:18Joe Rogan?

  I still haven't gotten over it.

• 32:19Speaker 02

  This is

• 32:20Joe Rogan?

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• 33:05Joe Rogan?

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• 33:51Joe Rogan?

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• 34:20Speaker 02

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• 34:37Joe Rogan?

  Un-American. It's a very un-American thing to do to unjustly accuse someone of crimes and use your position of power to try to arrest that person and jail that person. That's very un-American.

• 34:52Speaker 02

  Well, you know.

• 34:52Joe Rogan?

  That's how we should all look at it. Instead of looking at it in terms of like, parties and this is, you know, these are my people. These are, this is against me. This is for me. It's bad for the country.

• 35:04Speaker 02

  It is.

• 35:04Joe Rogan?

  Real bad for the country. We are supposed to represent freedom on the world stage. We're supposed to be the people that have the most freedom of speech, the most freedom of expression, the, the best path to success if you're a nobody. This is supposed to be a place where everybody gets a shot. And if you allow the system to unjustly accuse and prosecute people for crimes that are demonstrably false, that's very, very un-American. And that's how we should look at it. I mean, instead of this fucking, fuck my enemies, us versus them, you're, you're kind of committing treason. You're kind of, you're kind of ruining everyone's, if you could pull it off, you ruin our faith in what this thing is supposed to be.

• 35:46Speaker 02

  Well, look, I think that

• 35:50Speaker 02

  quite obviously, there are prosecutions that need to happen when someone commits a violent crime, when there's domestic abuse, when there's robbery, that, all of that. That's not.

• 36:00Joe Rogan?

  For sure.

• 36:01Speaker 02

  The, what should not be lost on people, because you are, you saw it play out on a national stage with the president. You are now hearing about it in a smaller, you know.

• 36:15Speaker 02

  Not a small town, but a smaller jurisdiction. And the irony of this, well, it struck me as I was speaking to JD the first time is here's a man that's fighting for his life. And I just, I mean, I'll confess to you, I used it to say, I continually said to JD, imagine you have to go through this for 30 years. It's not even comparable. Behind bars. So when I finally got through to him, that night, we must have spoke eight times that night. Yeah. He was, he knew that there was a problem with this case and he, he was creating in

• 36:55Speaker 02

  his, understandably so, we don't have time for me to actually sit and listen to you and go through the evidence again, because he had been through it before in the, in the Ohio four case. So as, as Dame Fortune would have it, I don't know where I heard that, but as That's a good saying. The way, the way it worked out is that three or four days after we spoke, the charges against JD were dropped. The election happened. Yeah. He gets defeated in the election. It had its intended effect, I guess, in my opinion, that's why else, but they dropped the case. So now his problem went away for the time being.

• 37:38Speaker 02

  So he became a lot more He was free for a minute. Singularly focused. So by the time I got to Ohio and I had a, you know, a team of lawyers that were representing the other three men and I felt like I had a more captive audience at that point. And, um, you know, what happens from here and what, what leads us to today is in my mind, just as perverse as the irony of him getting wrongfully accused of a crime. Because I presented to JD and, you know, at one point, he welled up.

• 38:20Speaker 02

  You know, to prove a negative is one of the most difficult things. Our standard is the presumption of innocence. When someone is already convicted and they're wrongfully convicted, in order for you to get someone in JD's position there, he was tough on me, as he should have been. But I had to prove a negative because I had to prove that Al Cleveland was not in Ohio when this happened, which frankly became easy to prove because we were able to show that he was in New York, visiting his probation officer on a different drug case. He had Damon John, who of Shark Tank fame, was with him the day that this allegedly happened. People saw him all over New York.

• 39:04Speaker 02

  There were, John Edwards, who's my client, had alibi witnesses all over the place. And if Al Cleveland is in New York, this never happened. Because William Avery Jr.'s story was that Al Cleveland was there, leading the charge, and they're beating this woman to death. So, when I was there, and I, by the time I was done presenting to JD and his chief of staff, they asked if they could have some time and get back to us. And we said, "Well, if you guys are gonna go chat, we're here in Ohio." You know, I'd come in from New York, and the other attorneys had come from other parts of Ohio, and we stayed for several hours.

• 39:47Speaker 04

  I think he was prepared to stay there the whole night.

• 39:49Speaker 02

  I was, I had already extended my trip. And, you know, it, interesting, because it didn't, he didn't make a decision until sometime about a week later, but I never asked you what your impression was at that moment, after we made the presentation.

• 40:11Speaker 04

  I had experience, not only with the assistant prosecutor that was involved in these cases, but with the Nancy Smith matter, I can't indicate to you how important that was to my thinking. And doing 15 years of being a defense attorney, I know how easy it is for this stuff to happen. It happens. And so I was much, I was open to it. I was open to it. And so, I think that, but I was free from the stress, at least for that part, and I was gonna dedicate the rest of those two months to this issue.

• 40:37Speaker 02

  And he, and he, I think, realized, he told me this morning when we were talking, he said, "I knew you weren't going away."

• 40:45Speaker 04

  Tenacious.

• 40:47Joe Rogan?

  Do you think... Is it possible to have a third-party system? Like, you know, you have your prosecutors, you have your defense attorneys. Is it possible to also have an overview by an independent group before anything gets started? Where people can present their evidence so you can find out if something's totally bullshit?

• 41:08Speaker 02

  Well, Joe, it's supposed to be the grand jury system. And you know what? Most people don't know this. There's a judge in New York that has a very famous quote, which is you can indict a ham sandwich. You can get a grand jury to believe anything because the standard is much lower than it is to convict. It's that they have to be convinced, what is it?

• 41:34Speaker 04

  There's to be a probable chance of success at trial. So, two issues. Probable cause and a success, a relatively, you know, good chance of success at trial.

• 41:41Joe Rogan?

  And who consists of the grand jury? Who are the members?

• 41:44Speaker 04

  Nine citizens.

• 41:46Speaker 02

  Well, it's nine citizens in Ohio. There are other jurisdictions, both federal and state, where there's more. But what happens is, and something that the people don't know, is that the defense is not allowed to present anything. The defense lawyer is not allowed to be there. So it is quite literally, this is not hyperbole, it is quite literally a one-sided affair. The number of cases that go before grand juries and don't get indicted is so infinitesimal that it's probably less than .0001 percent.

• 42:23Speaker 04

  It's probably not even statistically significant.

• 42:25Joe Rogan?

  What I was asking about is an independent group of attorneys. Instead of having a grand jury system have a completely independent, and then regulate it. Make sure they're independent, no financial ties, no ties to anybody that's a part of any of it. And then make sure that those people, that their position is to review things and make sure there's no bias and there's no bullshit. Wouldn't that, before you could actually say, yeah, let's try it out in court?

• 42:55Speaker 04

  Are you kind of saying after the arrest, Joe?

• 42:57Joe Rogan?

  Yes. And when you, it should be equal sides. Like, the prosecution side should be able to divulge their evidence, the defense side should be able to divulge their evidence. It should be independently reviewed. By a group of completely outside attorneys that have no vested interest in the results of this whatsoever.

• 43:17Speaker 04

  It's an interesting idea.

• 43:18Joe Rogan?

  It's not a bad idea because that would you would people would be less likely to try to commit fraud because then you would have to have some conspiratorial relationship with the people that are the independent attorneys now. There'd be another paper trail. It'd be a little sketchier. You wouldn't know if you could pull that off. That would be dangerous, especially if they're completely independent. You don't know them.

• 43:37Speaker 04

  Right.

• 43:37Joe Rogan?

  So you you the way you could do it would you be you could. You could find independent. First of all, think about the amount of money we spend in this country on shit that everybody agrees is terrible. If we could funnel some I don't even want to bring up whatever political cause. Just if we could funnel some of that money into preserving innocence. Make sure that people are never tried with a crime that they shouldn't be tried with. And it's not that you have a bad defense attorney and they have an awesome prosecutor. Nah, it's all is this a legitimate case?

• 44:13Speaker 04

  Right.

• 44:14Joe Rogan?

  And if you if you started doing that, you would there would be consequences for bringing up illegitimate cases. You would be investigated. You could potentially face charges.

• 44:24Speaker 02

  You've just stumbled into a what is a wormhole. Because you've brought up so many issues that are so mired in politics and statutes that in my mind make no sense. You would be you would be upending, you know, such a institution that it would cause a revolution. And and it's in fact not that revolutionary of an idea.

• 44:54Joe Rogan?

  It's not.

• 44:54Speaker 02

  And and you know, if it were ever

• 44:56Joe Rogan?

  Fairness?

• 44:56Speaker 02

  If it were ever possible, I would venture to say that.

• 45:03Speaker 02

  These times make me feel like about anything is possible.

• 45:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, this would be the time that something like that could get pulled off. I think there's a problem. And I think the problem is people are very competitive and they want to win. Everybody wants to win and it's important for your career if you win. And when people play games, they cheat. They, I see people cheat at pool. I see, I've seen professionals cheat at pool. I, I, I, you know, I've seen people cheat at cards. I've seen people cheat at everything. People cheat. They want to win. It's a horrible byproduct of that instinct that we have to win. When attached to a legal system that could lead innocent people to be prosecuted.

• 45:50Joe Rogan?

  I was listening to a podcast today about the founding of Jerusalem. And it was, in one of the cases was a guy who was in trouble for something that he didn't commit. They knew he didn't commit it. And then they kept him in jail and trumped up charges and charged him with something else. So it's just like, this is 1948 or 47 or whatever it was. So this shit's been going on.

• 46:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:14Joe Rogan?

  Probably thousands of years.

• 46:15Speaker 02

  For sure.

• 46:16Joe Rogan?

  People have been prosecuting people for things that they didn't do, knowing they didn't do it so they can win. I think cops do it sometimes. I've seen cops plant drugs. I've seen it on video. There's a ton of them online. You could see cops plant guns. You could see, there's a one where a cop shot a guy and then pulls out a gun and throws it on the ground. You could see the video of it. He didn't know he was being filmed. It fucking happens. It happens because people want to win. They want to win. They're playing a game and they're in a system and the system rewards success. And if, if you fucking fail or if you, you, something falls apart and it looks bad for, your career doesn't progress.

• 46:53Speaker 02

  Well, you know where you can start, which is an easier fix? If there's accountability, and I say easier fix because I don't want to throw cold water on your idea. It's a fantastic idea. But it just seems like pushing, not a boulder uphill, like a mountain and moving it.

• 47:11Joe Rogan?

  Do you think that's bigger than Bobby Kennedy running the HHS?

• 47:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, I do. I'll tell you, I'll tell you why. Because you would be, it, it, there are so many constitutional issues with the grand jury system and so forth. But here's something that is not that difficult. Prosecutors have immunity.

• 47:30Speaker 02

  There are no consequences. So, all of these cases where you hear people have been wrongfully convicted, prosecutors don't turn over evidence that would point to their innocence. That's what JD was referring to when he said exculpatory. That just means that would tend to prove innocence rather than guilt. That's constitutionally required that prosecutors turn that over. But these prosecutors don't have any accountability. And you're gonna see, in a few minutes, when we're gonna get to it, what happened after JD made his decision. What happened between when we filed it and today is, is, um,

• 48:12Speaker 02

  if you don't have warm blood pumping through your veins if this doesn't get you in some way. But yeah, I, I think, you know...

• 48:21Speaker 04

  I think there's an easier way to do it, Joe.

• 48:23Speaker 02

  Yeah?

• 48:23Speaker 04

  I think that you get county prosecutors that are extraordinarily powerful in their community. It's like, you know, I try to tell people, "Vote local because, you know, the President of the United States isn't gonna indict you. The guy that's sitting in the county prosecutor's office will." Um, and so, you know, having experience as a defense attorney for that long, it, it, it changes the way you think about prosecution. So I think that the easier thing is to require that a county prosecutor had some experience as a defense attorney. Because you get to see it from that perspective and you never are the same. Because you understand how these things happen. You see it. If you practice long enough, you will have a few incidents with clients. And I don't wanna get down completely on the system because I think most of the time it works, most of the time.

• 49:06Speaker 04

  Uh, but when it doesn't work, it's awful and it's the worst thing on the face of the planet. Um, I think that prosecutors, especially when, you know, they hide evidence which does occur, I think they think, "Well, he's guilty, I'll cheat a little bit, so what?" Which is insane, but, but it, it happens.

• 49:21Joe Rogan?

  It's like that. Do you know that quote about capitalism? "Capitalism is the absolute worst way to run a country, except for all the other ways."

• 49:29Speaker 04

  Right, right. Yeah.

• 49:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, but when... It's a great quote, but when will, when will, um, this is the lesser of all the evils, finally start catching up with us? And it's so, you know, it's so politically driven. If people were more aware of how politically driven some of these prosecutions are, and then you, you put your finger on the nerve root of, of... What the problem is from the standpoint of human psychology. It's been happening since the beginning of time and will continue to happen until people suffer ego death. And suffering an ego death requires you to look yourself in the mirror in a, in an honest way and to be able to say, um, four magic words.

• 50:14Speaker 02

  I made a mistake. That's it. And what stands in the way in my mind of prosecutors just so often not moving from their position is because they can't say, I made a mistake or the office where I work made a mistake. You're going to find that one of the judges that denied relief in this case of the Ohio four was a prosecutor in this office is friends with the current prosecutor. One of the other judges that denied relief is the same judge that denied Al Cleveland

• 50:57Speaker 02

  post conviction relief when the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals, the federal government says, these guys, Al Cleveland is likely innocent. And they just shove it aside. What gets in the way? What gets in the way is you touched on it. I want to win. This is, I'm not going to go against the former office. Whatever swirl of emotions, you know, whatever it is that just has people, you know, when you get to that point in an argument, this happens, I always give the same example because she's always right. You know, you get to a point in an argument where you're taking a real strong position

• 51:40Speaker 02

  and the other person, in this case, it's my wife, is always, you know, taking the opposite position and then you realize in the argument that you're wrong. And it's oftentimes it's like, you gave me, I gave you my keys to put in your purse. Where are they? No, you didn't give me your keys. You took them back since then. I'm like, no, no, no, I remember where I gave them to you. And, and then you remember in the middle of the argument, oh yeah, that's right. She did give them back to me. And, and what happens is at that moment, you have a choice to make. You could stop, which I've learned to do and say, you know what? I fucked up. You're right.

• 52:21Speaker 02

  In my experience, especially in a case like this, it's just like the, and that's not to pat myself on the back, there's plenty of times I dig in and I know I might be wrong, but you know, it's just the inability to say something bad might have happened here.

• 52:37Speaker 04

  Well, and it's protect the state at all times, at all costs.

• 52:41Joe Rogan?

  But wouldn't it be valuable for the people to know that the prosecuting attorneys are very ethical? Wouldn't that make you trust them more and want to support them more? Wouldn't that be good for everybody if they just said a mistake was made when a mistake was made?

• 52:55Speaker 04

  It maintains the integrity of it. I mean, Joe, let me say something that might blow your mind, it blew mine. When I had exonerated Nancy Smith and Joseph Allen, it really was the highlight of my career.

• 53:04Joe Rogan?

  Can you tell me what the case was?

• 53:06Speaker 04

  Yeah, it was a 94 case, which is interesting because it was happening simultaneously with the same assistant prosecutor as the one that Josh is referring to. They were accused, she was a bus driver, she's now become family to me, so, and they're big fans, Joe, by the way.

• 53:20Joe Rogan?

  Shout out.

• 53:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, shout out. So, you know, they were 94, she was a bus driver for a place called Head Start for young kids. She was alleged to have driven these kids after picking them up from their homes back to another individual's house, a male, and severely abused them sexually. Now, the Broadway, which is the road where he allegedly lived off of, was a main, is a main thoroughfare through Lorraine. The allegations were so wild that, you know, if you can imagine seeing a school bus pull up on the main street, watch little kids go into a house, they were alleged to have been, like, punished by being tied up outside in trees, which is just impossible. So, this is the alleged abuse that occurred, because what happened was-

• 54:02Joe Rogan?

  Did someone coach the kids?

• 54:04Speaker 04

  Yes, that's, in fact, that's exactly what occurred. So, one of the mothers that eventually got paid, I think it was about 1.5 million in 95 money, which is a decent amount of money, she had indicated that her daughter had been abused by Nancy, the bus driver. Now, when the investigation occurred, there was a detective on it that did a very thorough investigation, and after months, found out that, listen, this is, I don't even think a crime occurred, you know. He was very confused by the evidence, it wasn't clear, it was plain as day that he couldn't even prove that these two individuals knew one another. And so, he had indicated that, basically, listen, I can't go forward on this, I have no evidence that it's true.

• 54:45Speaker 04

  Well, the, the public pressure, I'm assuming, was, was rising, uh, because the, the victim, uh, the woman that had the child, uh, was becoming pretty public. She was organizing the other parents, was, as you well know, you can't get these parents together and start, you know, talking about the case because it just compromises so much. Now, to the police credit, they would try to tell these individuals, "You can't meet and talk about the case," but they did anyways. So then, a bunch of erratic stories turned into one pretty, pretty substantial story that pretty much stayed all the way through, is that she would drive, allegedly, these kids to a house, and they would take them down to the basement, and pretty much every child said that it was a basement that they went to. Um, it turns out, for example, Joseph Smith didn't even have a basement. It was a slab home. I mean,

• 55:27Speaker 04

  that's one fact out of a million facts that are tru- that are, that are, uh, so disturbing about the case. And so, when I started to look at it, the funny part is, during the first three or four months of me evaluating it, I had a couple investigators with me, and, uh, we, we were reading only exculpatory information. Nancy didn't do it. Um, we don't think a crime occurred. And I was wondering, when am I gonna start finding the inculpatory information? When am I gonna start seeing the guilt? And, uh, it just really never happened. And so, uh, when I exonerated these, these two individuals that were clearly innocent, she had done fifteen years, Joe. Uh, he had done twenty-five. Um, I was in court, and, and my chief of staff and I had written something, uh, to, to kind of indicate to the court,

• 56:10Speaker 04

  and I apologized to them for what had occurred to them. After the hearing, uh, Mark Gotti of the Ohio Innocence Project came up to me, said, "JD, I gotta tell you something. You're the only prosecutor I've ever heard actually apologize to a defendant." Joe, imagine how remarkable that statement is. That's crazy. "We took forty years of your life combined, but we're not even gonna apologize to you." Now, probably because they're, they're assuming that it's gonna protect the state's interests better, uh, I'm a firm believer in that, uh, if, if the state suffers, then maybe it deserves to suffer, and that's justice.

• 56:42Joe Rogan?

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• 58:09Joe Rogan?

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• 58:51Joe Rogan?

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• 59:01Speaker 02

  You know what's funny? A lot of cases where I ask, where I have the, I represent a client in a civil rights case for wrongful conviction, I sometimes give the law enforcement official during a deposition in a civil case, I say, you know, I did it recently for Clemente Aguirre, who was exonerated from Florida's death row. I gave the, you know, the crime scene technician, the fingerprint analyst, all of who played a part in his wrongful conviction, I said, "Mr. Aguirre's here, would you like to apologize to him?" "No, sir, I will not."

• 59:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, they won't do it.

• 59:36Speaker 02

  So, he exonerates Nancy Smith and...

• 59:40Speaker 04

  Joseph Allen.

• 59:40Speaker 02

  Joseph Allen. And all of these folks that prosecuted Nancy Smith and Joseph Allen, law enforcement, the prosecutors, they all turn on him. I had no idea about any of this.

• 59:55Joe Rogan?

  Because you apologized, or because you exonerated them?

• 59:56Speaker 04

  No, it was because I, yeah, I mean, it was that. I mean, the assistant prosecutor, Rosenbaum, that you're referring to with these cases, he was the assistant prosecutor. He was heavily tied in with that office because he had been the chief prosecutor for a very long time, under an individual by the name of Greg White, who was the Lorraine County prosecutor at the time. Now, Greg White doesn't get mentioned, you probably never even heard his name. Now, that's interesting, he was the county prosecutor during that time. He seems to have escaped criticism. I think part of the reason is he's smart enough to be quiet. So, when these cases come out in public, he doesn't say very much. But the truth of the matter is, the buck stops at the office holder.

• 1:00:35Speaker 02

  So, just so we're clear, this prosecutor, Rosenbaum, prosecuted Nancy Smith and Joseph Allen, and I believe he prosecuted all four of the Ohio four.

• 1:00:46Speaker 04

  Yes, he did. And so, when I reviewed two cases, Joe, two cases from this assistant prosecutor, I found that six people were wrongly convicted and did about 162 years in prison. That's two cases, Joe. The question is, how many more are there out there? Jesus. Two cases. It's extraordinary. It's terrifying. Two cases, and those are the only two I reviewed. Now, that doesn't mean, most of them are probably good. That's the way the statistics are. Um, but I think it was, uh, it was pretty scary, the thought of me going through all those cases. And I think they knew that I was open to that type of stuff. Oh, God. And so I think that created these enemies that I never thought they would go as far as they do. I just never, you know, maybe it's naivete, but I was just, I never assumed that they would go that far. But they, they did.

• 1:01:30Speaker 02

  So I, I, after I presented to J D., he, he had a, a cart. Um, this is like a, a popular thing with prosecutors. They, they wheel in a cart of evidence. You know, it's like a shopping cart, it looks like, without the...

• 1:01:50Speaker 04

  Full of files.

• 1:01:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it's full of files. And he had read a lot of it, uh, in years prior. And he said he wanted to refamiliarize himself with more. So I, I think we both canceled our Thanksgiving plans. And got into a lot of, I was annoyed because when I left Ohio, it was so obvious to me that these men were innocent and that there was a terrible mistake made and a federal court never goes out of their way to say something like this. I have the opinion here, and I showed this to J D. and his chief of staff.

• 1:02:34Speaker 02

  And it says, this is the way it concludes.

• 1:02:48Speaker 02

  It goes through the things that the juries in the case heard that were bad about Avery, that he was a liar, he was a liar. But it didn't have, you know, all these prosecutors that are trying to protect convictions. And the man that's the county prosecutor now, in his motion to withdraw JD's decision to grant these men a new trial and then dismiss the case, we're going to get to this in a minute. This is what ended up happening. He says, well, these cases have gone through the courts for 30 years. And that could be said about every single human that has ever been exonerated in this country. It's the weakest argument. It's the weakest argument. What's the evidence that they did it?

• 1:03:32Speaker 02

  And here's one court that says, had the jury also been able to consider Avery's unsolicited 2004 recantation, that's when he went into the FBI. The 2006 recanting affidavit, that's the one that Al Cleveland had in his post-conviction filings. Evidence that Cleveland was in New York a couple of hours before Blakely's murder and could not have flown from New York to Ohio in time to commit the murder, along with the fact that there was no other evidence tying Cleveland to the crime, quote, now they're quoting a case in this opinion.

• 1:04:13Speaker 02

  It surely cannot be said that a juror conscientiously following the judge's instructions requiring proof beyond a reasonable doubt would vote to convict. We find that Cleveland has presented a credible claim of actual innocence. It's amazing. So, that is such a rare thing for a federal court to say those things. That's the federal court telling the lower courts in Lorain County, you have to give Al Cleveland a hearing.

• 1:04:51Speaker 02

  It's at that hearing where the judge advises Avery Jr., you know, you're basically gonna get charged with perjury. So I, I make the presentation to JD and he spends roughly the next five days. You know, at some point, we were joking to each other and there was a lot of arguing because he wanted to go out to the apartment where the alleged beating took place and he did and he was reading lines of transcript from four different trials and he'd say, "Well, what about this? What about that?" And I just said, "You know what? I'm gonna cancel my Thanksgiving." He canceled his and I was just there to answer any question he had. And there weren't really many questions of substance and I started to realize the

• 1:05:35Speaker 02

  second or third day that he's looking for something to say they're guilty. He's looking for some evidence and every, around every corner he looked, he would say things to me like, "What, what, what is going on here? Why in the world would this happen? And why, how is it, it's so ob-" You know, I'd be curious as to what your thought process was before you finally told us.

• 1:06:02Speaker 04

  I couldn't believe they were ultimately convicted. I couldn't believe that there were four trials where, where people believed Avery. You know, I never told you this story, Josh, but I knew one of the lawyers for one of the defendants, but I won't mention names. And I heard from a good source that would hang around with him in the office on Saturday that like, almost like, almost every Saturday, one of the defendants would call him and after the phone call, he would cry because he, he would say, "That man does not deserve to be there and I screwed it up."

• 1:06:28Speaker 02

  Oy.

• 1:06:29Speaker 04

  And, and so, and, and I, and when I heard that, it, it made sense to me because in Josh's right, I was looking for some reason why I was making the wrong decision. You know, it's a big decision to, to decide to maybe try to free four people from prison. I wanted to be sure. I wanted to get there.

• 1:06:44Speaker 02

  You have to look at it from all angles.

• 1:06:45Speaker 04

  You have to and, and I understand, I appreciated Josh's tenacity because that's what good defense attorneys do. But I had to get there myself. And so, I had a, I had a, I wanted to take my parents to Mexico City. I called my mom and said, "We're not going to Mexico City. It's not happening." So we just stayed and I, I just, but it was so, it was almost therapeutic for me because I had been so much stressed on my own case. It was nice to divert attention away from me and trying to think about something else. So I really immersed myself in it and I went to crime scene, which I always believed defense attorneys should go. To every, every case I had, I went to the crime scene. I learned something that I didn't know. But I eventually got there and it was extraordinary though, not only was this case just on this, this individual Avery Jr.'s testimony, he might've been the worst witness I've ever

• 1:07:29Speaker 04

  seen in my life. I mean, so not, so not only was there no physical evidence that, that linked these men to it, the only witness that was present was perhaps the worst I'd ever seen.

• 1:07:39Speaker 02

  And, and you know, what the federal court is saying is that, yeah, they could damage his credibility at trial, but they didn't know, obviously because he does it later, that he made the whole thing up. And they didn't know that he's admitted he made the whole thing up. And importantly, who walks in unsolicited to the FBI and says, here's what I did. And I want to clear my conscience and I'm, I want to tell you what I did.

• 1:08:09Joe Rogan?

  That'd be a hell of a double cross.

• 1:08:11Speaker 04

  Yeah. And it's a crime to lie.

• 1:08:12Speaker 02

  And I, I knew, I started to feel like, oh, okay. We're about to get hometown, small town, something bad is happening here because this should've been a moment to, here we are, myself, my co-counsel, we're about to change the trajectory, not of just these four men's lives, but of their families that have lived under the crushing weight of these wrongful convictions for three decades. My client, John Edwards, and Al Cleveland, and the other two as well, Lenworth and Benson,

• 1:08:50Speaker 02

  you know, John is in, Al is out, but Al is suffering, you know, the most horrific psychological damage you can imagine. And John calls me from prison all the time. JD tells us that he is going to file a joint motion.

• 1:09:10Speaker 02

  Joint meeting between defense counsel and the prosecutor to grant these men a new trial, that's the procedural mechanism.

• 1:09:17Speaker 04

  Based on new evidence.

• 1:09:18Speaker 02

  Based on new evidence, which is the 2004 recantation.

• 1:09:22Speaker 04

  Which they never had the benefit of taking the trial, that evidence was never seen.

• 1:09:26Speaker 02

  And then the 2006 affidavit, and that once the new trial was granted, he would dismiss the case. So that all gets filed in front of one judge, because it really should have been a matter of procedure. In all my years of doing this, 25 years, 24 years, I've never seen a judge do anything other than have the hearing and respect what the prosecutor has filed for and asked for, especially when it's joined by the defense. So all of a sudden, the judge that this has filed before is silent. Now, the clock is ticking, because now we have the whole month of December, and after

• 1:10:09Speaker 02

  January 6th, he's out of office. And right away, within a few days of us filing this joint motion, there's a newspaper article that comes out, what's your local paper again?

• 1:10:23Speaker 04

  Chronicle Telegraph.

• 1:10:24Speaker 02

  The Chronicle Telegraph. Telegraph or telegram?

• 1:10:26Speaker 04

  Telegram.

• 1:10:27Speaker 02

  The Chronicle Telegram, and it has the person that just defeated him in the election, his name is Tony Sillo. It has comments from him and from this prosecutor Rosenberg, saying that I don't understand what the rush is, I don't understand, you know, essentially saying, wait until I take office, I, Tony Sillo, take office, and I want to review this. And I thought that that was really interesting, because he's someone that worked in that office. He's someone that actually played a role in some of the investigation that I believe should have taken place.

• 1:11:12Speaker 02

  When he was a prosecutor in that office, and he did not have the benefit of the thorough investigation that JD had done, and he's a private citizen until he takes office. So I found that to be interesting. And all of a sudden, a brief gets filed from the Attorney General of Ohio, saying, "Whoa."

• 1:11:36Speaker 02

  It's a brief that gets filed to the court where we filed this joint motion for a new trial, and the Attorney General gets involved. You don't have to look far to see other Attorney Generals getting involved in criminal cases, right? That's happened on a national stage. Happened in New York. And he basically is taking the position that this man, this should all wait until Tony Silla takes office. And I thought, "What? This is weird." Then I come to find out that Tony Silla used to work at the Attorney General's office. So I started to have hope when the judge, one of the judges in the case, because I won't bore you with the details, but the cases get

• 1:12:19Speaker 02

  sent out to different judges that were assigned to each man's case. And

• 1:12:27Speaker 02

  what the judge says is, "The AG's motion," this is a quote, this is from an order from the Honorable Chris Cook. The AG, and this is dated December 23rd. "The AG's motion is not to advocate for either party to this litigation, which in most situations is the sole purpose of filing an amicus brief, but instead, to ask this court to delay ruling on the pending motions until such time as the newly-elected Lorraine County Prosecutor is in office and the victims can be notified. Neither of these purported reasons to opine on this litigation are persuasive or necessary to aid the court."

• 1:13:12Speaker 02

  First, the AG argues that the current prosecutor will be leaving office shortly, referring to JD. Within the next two weeks, in fact, and any rulings should be delayed in order to allow the incoming prosecutor to evaluate the matter and weigh in on the issues. But this reason is hardly compelling. After all, all elected officials eventually leave office and to suggest that simply because a newly-elected prosecutor is taking over, a pending matter should be delayed for the incoming official to review is unwieldy, inconvenient, invites delay, and not how the system operates. Moreover, why should rulings or evaluation of this case be singled out and subject to

• 1:13:55Speaker 02

  delay in favor of the new administration but not the other 150 pending criminal cases on this court's docket? At the end of the day, the concept that a court or any government entity, for that matter, should come to a grinding halt because a newly-elected official will be taking over is not how government should or does work. Shout out to that guy. Yeah? Put that thought on hold. Oh, no. Because three days later, three days later, now this is curious. What changes in three days? Well, I don't know if it happened during these three days, but this is the prosecutor, I mean, this is the judge that swears in the new prosecuting attorney.

• 1:14:40Speaker 02

  Three days later, there is another order filed by the same judge. And because we had moved for an emergency hearing, because in our mind, this incoming prosecutor opines on the case in the paper, had worked at that prosecutor's office and obviously had some feeling about the case, and if he had taken such an interest in talking to the press, we were concerned and filed an emergency motion not to let these men suffer any longer.

• 1:15:21Speaker 02

  So, the same judge that you just said shout out, which was exactly my sentiment...

• 1:15:28Speaker 02

  Issues in another order. You could not get a more stark 180-degree turn than this. I'm going to quote from that order. "How can it be possibly an emergency that a hearing and potential ruling be accomplished in a matter of weeks for a case in cases that have been pending for almost three decades? Not to mention four years on the current prosecutor's watch? Moreover, no rational person would conclude that a change in county prosecutor constitutes an emergency. An inconvenience to the movements arguably, a delay in rulings no doubt, but an emergency?

• 1:16:11Speaker 02

  I don't think so." In addition to the lack of emergency, two additional but troubling issues are apparent by this motion. This is three days later. First, the movements go to great pains to paint the incoming prosecutor as incapable of fairly and rationally evaluating the defendant's claims of innocence and request for new trial. To pause there, because this man had sat and listened to and dove through and tore through this entire trial record. So, yeah, we had concerns that we would face further delay. It already agreed.

• 1:16:52Speaker 02

  We filed, this is oftentimes, right away the court will call a hearing and grant the relief. So the judge goes on to say, "This effort is unfounded. Contra the movement's reliance on a newspaper article," that's the one I was talking about, "the same article quotes Prosecutor-elect Sillaw as saying he would review the matter anew, just like Prosecutor Tomlinson did." And it goes on to say...

• 1:17:22Speaker 02

  Second, even more troubling is the movement's assertion that Tomlinson's successor has no authority to review agreements made by Tomlinson. I've never seen this in an opinion before. "Oh, really?" With a question mark. The movement's right that Mr. Tomlinson's successor has an obligation to honor the good faith decisions made by the prior administration, J.D. And it then goes on to use the Head Start case, the Nancy Smith case and Joe Allen, where he granted these people, I mean, he exonerated these people. He then goes on to throw it in their face, in my opinion.

• 1:18:04Speaker 02

  He says, "Recall the Head Start case." And he goes through make personalizing this and saying that because J.D. Tomlinson exonerated these people, thereby undoing a prior administration's prosecution, that why should the same not apply to you? So in other words, three days before, he says, "Why should justice wait?" Three days later, he says, "Wait a second. This should wait. And it should wait, and by the way, here's one to poke this man in the eye, because he

• 1:18:45Speaker 02

  exonerated people, you're undermining the decision of a prior administration." So he's using his granting of innocence, in my opinion, to now go back on what he said three days earlier, which is, "Why should this wait?" What happened in these three days? I don't know. But I can tell you that you've taken position A, and then you've taken position Z. So what happens is, on these judges, one of the judges, the one that denied Al Cleveland post-conviction relief, that, you know, said to Avery Jr., you know, "There are potential consequences here." He denies the joint motion for a new trial for Al Cleveland, based on nothing. He doesn't call a hearing.

• 1:19:30Speaker 02

  This is in December. He says, "I'm denying it."

• 1:19:36Speaker 02

  He then, he then, this man Sillo takes office. All the other judges deny it, by the way, or delay it. The other judges punt until the new prosecutor comes to office. And you don't think this is personal? This man's second day in office. Tony Sillo takes office. His first order of business is to withdraw the joint motion on behalf of the state. So he undoes everything that we did. Because he worked at that office, because he's friends with these guys, I don't know. But I'd like to know.

• 1:20:19Speaker 02

  And to make these men suffer is truly, at this point, it's really, really difficult to understand. The craziest part about these is that this judge, Cook, in that first opinion, he said the AG cites as one of the reasons why this should be delayed is that the victims have to be notified. He notified the victims and the judge calls them on it here. So this is, this is like, um, it's fascinating.

• 1:20:49Speaker 04

  Well, you know, you know, I must have a caveat because I do love and respect Chris Cook. I really do. He's been there for me a lot in my career. Where I disagree with his opinion is the idea that I didn't have any experience with the idea that maybe Tony Sillo couldn't be objective. And I think where I diverge from Judge Cook is that I had a very real experience on why Tony Sillo couldn't be objective when involving the Nancy Smith case. He was involved in that case in the later stages of it. And in my humble opinion, Joe, anybody that looks at that case and doesn't do the right thing is just, it's scary. It's scary. So I did have an experience and I know that the relationship that he shares with Attorney

• 1:21:33Speaker 04

  Rosenbaum, who's the assistant prosecutor, that I know that was a mentor, protege-type relationship. And so the idea that he's going to be objective in undoing such a major case for someone that's arguably his mentor is almost impossible to conceive. And so I knew that I had to be quick about it because if I wasn't quick about it, I don't think it would ever be done and I still don't think it'll ever get done.

• 1:21:55Speaker 02

  Well, I refuse to think it won't get done.

• 1:21:58Speaker 04

  I hope it does.

• 1:21:59Speaker 02

  It's interesting to me that I had spoken to Mr. Sillo when he took office. And his first, my conversation with him wasn't about all the reasons they're innocent. He said, you know, there's this phone call between Al Cleveland and his dad where they're talking about giving Avery money and I said, what are you talking about? And I went and read the transcript. It's about them giving him money in 2006 for his expenses to put him in a hotel room so he could feel safe with a court reporter and to do the affidavit. And I felt like saying, you know, so let me get this straight.

• 1:22:42Speaker 02

  You, your office pays this man reward money. He then tries to extort your office for more money in exchange for testimony? He has gone into the FBI before this affidavit was ever a thing. He went into the FBI and admitted he made the whole thing up and you want to talk about a conversation between Al Cleveland and his father when they're talking about whether or not they could reimburse him for expenses if they have to fly him to Florida or, you know, get him to a place where he feels safe because he felt like if he told the truth again, that there would be consequences for him because he was going against his father. He'd be liable to snitch in the community. And, you know, I then emailed him and asked him for a meeting.

• 1:23:25Speaker 02

  And I didn't hear back. I heard back finally last week for the first time that we have a meeting with him on March 18th. And I found that curious timing and I said to JD this morning, did you tell anyone you were coming on the show? And he looked at me and it's a small town, a word travels fast, so I have my suspicions. But I would make Tony Sillo the following offer.

• 1:23:54Speaker 02

  Two things. If you have any evidence that these men actually did this, any whatsoever,

• 1:24:03Speaker 02

  with your blessing, Joe, I'd offer him a seat right next to me to show the world

• 1:24:07Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 1:24:08Speaker 02

  what the evidence is.

• 1:24:09Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 1:24:10Speaker 02

  You tell me what the evidence is.

• 1:24:11Joe Rogan?

  Open invitation, come on on.

• 1:24:12Speaker 02

  And how about this? Rather than do this behind closed doors on the 18th, how about let's open it to the public? I just argued for a sentence commutation before Governor DeSantis last week. It was a public hearing. I had been told, just as I heard from JD, it just gives me fuel. I don't think it'll happen. I was told that he has never publicly listened to a sentence commutation, ever. And you know what? It happened. And he listened and he's considering the case. And I feel like if we talk with each other and not at each other, we can get to the right place. And I'm not this, I want to be really clear. I have deep respect for what prosecutors do.

• 1:24:56Speaker 02

  I have deep respect for Tony Sillo's commitment to public service. I don't know the man. I don't know him personally. I don't know anything about him. But I do find, I find it really difficult to understand why he took such an interest in this case, such that he blocked justice from happening and withdrew the state's position. How about hear us out and meet with us before you withdraw the joint motion to dismiss? How about that? How about you hear the evidence before making it the first, like official act or among the first official acts?

• 1:25:41Speaker 02

  It was just, it's, so I don't, I'm not optimistic going in, but I can tell you this. I have found something as recent as yesterday where alternative suspects were brought to the attention of the Lorraine County Prosecutor. And wouldn't you know that the person assigned to investigate these alternative suspects and to liaise with the police department was one Tony Sillo?

• 1:26:10Speaker 02

  I saw that document for the first time yesterday.

• 1:26:12Joe Rogan?

  So what do you think that could mean?

• 1:26:14Speaker 02

  I don't know what it means. I'd like, I have a lot of questions. I, I, do you, what did you do to investigate these men?

• 1:26:22Speaker 02

  One of their, one of their ex-wives says that he was cleaning bloody clothes the night of the Marshall Blakely murder and he knew her. I don't know what it means, but I'd like to know. I have questions. You know, what is it? "Truth crushed to earth, truth crushed to earth shall rise again." It always, the truth comes out at some point. And I am, I am singularly focused on finding out as much truth as I can about this case. And I just won't let up until I find it. Something's wrong and I want to figure out what it is.

• 1:27:03Speaker 02

  But these men are suffering. They should have been out in December. And to continuously, needlessly delay the process, hard to imagine.

• 1:27:14Joe Rogan?

  This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Look, it's good to prepare for the future. But when you start over analyzing what's happening around you, dreaming up every hypothetical situation of what could happen, that's when it gets dangerous. You can start to hyper-fixate and stress out and all over things that haven't even happened. That's no good for current you or future you. If you're struggling to stay in the present and out of your head, try talking with a quality therapist from BetterHelp. They have psychologists, family therapists, marriage counselors, social workers, and more. Whatever you need to work through,

• 1:27:57Joe Rogan?

  BetterHelp can match you with a seasoned professional with the specialty that you need. BetterHelp is now a network with more than 125 health plans, with many copays as low as $15 for eligible members. And if you don't have eligible insurance or live outside the US, you can still get 20% off your first month. Sign up and get 20% off at betterhelp.com. That's better H E L P dot com. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Look, it's good to prepare for the future. But when you start over analyzing what's happening around you, dreaming up every hypothetical situation of what could happen, that's when it gets dangerous.

• 1:28:38Joe Rogan?

  You can start to hyper-fixate and stress out and all over things that haven't even happened. That's no good for current you or future you. If you're struggling to stay in the present and out of your head, try talking with a quality therapist from BetterHelp. They have psychologists, family therapists, marriage counselors, social workers, and more. Whatever you need to work through, BetterHelp can match you with a seasoned professional with the specialty that you need. BetterHelp is now a network with more than 125 health plans, with many copays as low as $15 for eligible members.

• 1:29:22Joe Rogan?

  And if you don't have eligible insurance or live outside the US, you can still get 20% off your first month. Sign up and get 20% off at betterhelp.com. That's better H E L P dot com.

• 1:29:36Speaker 04

  You know, Joe, I think we're also getting in this dangerous territory where we're not... I mean, the idea that you could ever prove them guilty with this evidence objectively is impossible. Now, we're getting in this dangerous territory where we're having to prove their innocence. And that's significant because that is not the standard. And so, when the case is that bad that you have to then just continue to try to find out ways to prove these guys innocent, which is, it's difficult. And I was talking with my father. I said, "I can't prove you didn't kill Marshall Blakely on August 8th, 1991. I can't prove that." So, we're in this dangerous territory now where we're trying to actually just argue actual innocence. And the standard is proof beyond a reasonable doubt. And it's not even close. It's not even close.

• 1:30:14Joe Rogan?

  You know, and where do I...

• 1:30:15Speaker 04

  Scary.

• 1:30:15Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and all I want to do is, what I want to do is do what I did with J.D. Is to say, you know, how many times in your life do you have a chance to say, you know, something was really wrong and I helped make it right?

• 1:30:37Speaker 02

  And Tony Sillow has that chance. I mean, how many moments are there when you have the ability to impact other human beings in a way to set them literally free and to end the most unfathomable of nightmares? And he has that chance. I'm trying to appeal to, you know, I don't want there to be some nefarious conclusion drawn from, maybe he did investigate alternative Sussex. Maybe there is an explanation for it. One thing I know for sure is that no one has been able to show me any physical evidence, any eyewitness account, and actually, we have been able

• 1:31:20Speaker 02

  to prove their innocence. What constellation of fate would come together so that you could show to a factual certainty that Al Cleveland was not in Ohio on the night these killings took place? He meets with his probation officer, and he's seen by multiple people. And, you know, what more do you need? That's standing alone, you know, and then you factor in Avery saying, "I made it all up." And you factor in the fact that the story he tells is belied by

• 1:32:01Speaker 02

  the physical evidence. It should, it is so easy to put people behind those bars, and it is a, it takes almost a miracle to fight their way out. So, am I hoping for a miracle here? I hope not. I hope that these individuals that are presiding over this put whatever it is aside that is causing them to hang on and say, "You know what? We just got this one wrong. We can't stand by this."

• 1:32:29Speaker 04

  And think about this also. The only person to ever place themselves at the murder scene is Avery Jr. He's the only one, and he's the only one that wasn't charged. It's fascinating. He admitted, basically, to being complicit. Fair enough. I mean, you're at the murder, it's happening, you're there, you're the only one that hasn't been charged. Uh, in fact, I think maybe one of the facts you left out, Josh, is in 2004, he implicated his own father. Avery Senior, who went to the police originally. He said, "I think he killed her. I think he killed her and told me to tell that story, to cover up not only his guilt in killing, that he did know Marsha Blakely. There was some, some, some reports that they had a contentious relationship. Um, so, you know, it's very likely that, you know, the two individuals that implicated these individuals may have been involved with the crime.

• 1:33:15Speaker 04

  It's, it's, it's fascinating, and, and, you know, I've just never seen cases like this before. Like I said, I can't stress it enough. If I took this case to a bunch of 5th graders, they would be objectively able to see that this is a crazy bad case. I mean, it's, it's not even close.

• 1:33:29Speaker 02

  And, and, and for the retort to be, "Well, four juries saw it another way, and courts saw it another way," that's not true. These juries did not see that this man said, "I made it all up."

• 1:33:38Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:33:39Speaker 02

  And, you know, it, it always leads to this place, like, what do we do? You know, I, um...

• 1:33:49Speaker 02

  If you're a citizen of Lorraine County, you want to feel that this couldn't have happened to you.

• 1:33:58Speaker 02

  Regardless of what your background is, I would think that the citizens of Lorraine County would at some point demand action here. These men are not expendable. Whether you disagree with... Look, I'll be the first one to say it, on behalf of my client, on behalf of Al Cleveland and the others. They're not proud of the fact that they were dealing drugs back then. They're not proud of the life they were living. That's not a reason to pin a murder on them.

• 1:34:35Joe Rogan?

  Absolutely. And, you know, the reality is, if you grew up where they grew up and you lived their life, you're probably selling drugs too.

• 1:34:43Speaker 04

  One hundred percent.

• 1:34:44Joe Rogan?

  That's reality. Nobody likes that. Everybody's got that pulled them up by their bootstraps shit in their head. That's not real. That's not real. You grow up in crime, you commit crime.

• 1:34:53Speaker 04

  One hundred percent.

• 1:34:55Joe Rogan?

  It's not a hundred percent that if you grow up in crime, you gotta commit crime. Some people get out. Some people realize the folly of other people's ways and they have incredible strength and resolve and discipline. We get extraordinary people from those circumstances. Whether it's in athletics, or art, or music, comedy. There's a lot of people that grew up in horrific circumstances. They became very extraordinary because of that pressure. But that's not normal. The normal thing is everybody gets beaten down by what's around you. You imitate your atmosphere. You're a part of a system that seems inescapable to all your family. To all your friends. People getting locked up, getting out, they're getting murdered, they're selling drugs. It's, that's your reality.

• 1:35:35Joe Rogan?

  And if you grew up in fucking Connecticut and you go to private school and you're, you're sitting here talking shit about this, like you, you're so fucking lucky. You don't know how lucky you are to get, if you're a person that's never committed crimes, never gone to jail, and never done anything horrible, you are so lucky.

• 1:35:53Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 1:35:53Joe Rogan?

  You're so lucky. You're so lucky you didn't have to shoot somebody who was stealing money from you because you were both involved in some crime together and he was gonna kill you. And all of a sudden you're in jail and you're like, what the fuck have I done? That's what, there's people out there doing that. There's people out there that are committing crimes wishing they didn't have to commit them. Wishing they had some sort of pathway to life, or some life skills, or some education, or counseling, or mentorship, or something that have given them a path to get out of there and be what everybody wants to be. A normal, healthy person who's enjoying their life. Enjoying their family, enjoying their friends, and hopefully you get to make a living doing something you like doing too. That's what everybody fucking wants. Just everybody doesn't grow up in the right circumstances. Some people just get a shit roll of the dice.

• 1:36:38Speaker 04

  One.

• 1:36:39Joe Rogan?

  Right out of the gate. Pop out of the vagina, right into chaos. That's-

• 1:36:43Speaker 04

  It's like Chris Rock had that joke. Kind of depends on what vagina you fall out of. Right, I mean, I got lucky. I mean, my parents, I didn't come from money, Joe, but my parents are still together. They cared about what I was doing. Did you get your homework done? Did you get your homework done? You know, I mean, and I remember having these clients that really taught me a lot where it's like they never even had a shot.

• 1:37:01Joe Rogan?

  They didn't have a shot. I mean, so many of these people, they're just growing up abused physically, mentally, they're seeing drug addiction in the household. It's just, you know, it's not the same for everybody. So, yeah, it sucks that they were selling drugs. It sucks that anybody sells drugs. It sucks that people die of overdoses. It sucks, sucks that people get addicted. All that sucks. But that's not murder. That's not what these people did. And you can't charge people for shit they didn't do.

• 1:37:24Speaker 02

  You know, and I, and I do, I, I, I've been called a lot of things. One of them that I take exception to is being called a race baiter. I find that really problematic. You know, trolls on the internet that don't matter.

• 1:37:39Joe Rogan?

  Stop reading comments.

• 1:37:40Speaker 02

  I know.

• 1:37:40Speaker 04

  It helped me during my prime.

• 1:37:41Speaker 02

  Not even real. But, but one of the things, one of the things that,

• 1:37:44Speaker 04

  Right, it's a robot.

• 1:37:45Speaker 02

  One of the things that people should read, if you want a better understanding of what it's like to grow up a minority in this country, or black in America, again, for black men in a very white community that were from out of town and drug dealers.

• 1:38:02Speaker 02

  So, read Cast by Isabel Wilkerson. And, you know, before you go judging what is going on in terms of, you know, your perception that people should pull theirself up by their, their bootstraps, you try being born into a caste system.

• 1:38:22Joe Rogan?

  Oh, C A S T E?

• 1:38:23Speaker 02

  C A S T. And we are a country, and I'm not on my soapbox, this is a fact. And if you can dispute anything in Isabel Wilkerson's book, this is a caste system that exists in America since its inception. And the experience of a black American in this country is different than that of a white American. So I think that these, Wrongful convictions happen disproportionately to people of color for a reason. And we have to start changing minds and we have to start getting people to come back to, I don't know what's more innate. Is it innate to be, to find the humanity within ourselves?

• 1:39:07Speaker 02

  Or is it more innate to tear each other down? We all have that decision to make. I don't know what it is about human beings where there's some sort of, you know, ostensibly there's like some satisfaction in the tearing down of another.

• 1:39:22Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:23Speaker 02

  I know where that comes from. It comes from a weakness within you. It comes from a hole that you're trying to fill. What we should want is, you know, uplifting these people that have been born into circumstances that are just different. I come from a middle, middle-class family, you know, sometimes trending toward the lower end. My dad had the knock-around guy from Brooklyn. My mom was a schoolteacher. And I think that going through some of those struggles set me up for success and to learn how to scrape a little bit. But I didn't have the experience of someone that was born in Watts or Bev Stuyvesant or Harlem. I just didn't.

• 1:40:06Speaker 02

  And, you know, I'm a little less quick to judge.

• 1:40:11Joe Rogan?

  Me too.

• 1:40:12Speaker 02

  That, you know, if more people had your sentiment, Joe, right? That sometimes it's a little bit deeper than you think as to why someone resorts to committing a crime.

• 1:40:24Joe Rogan?

  It's almost always deeper than you think. I mean, I'm not a full believer in determinism because I think will is real. I think free will, there's this an element of will and that's one of the reasons why we seek inspiration from others, right? Inspiration is fuel for will, you know, whether it's reading or just watching how people live their lives by example, that fuels people to make better decisions. Is that a part of determinism? If it is, maybe I do believe in it. But I think that there's, there's a certain aspect of will. But you can't deny circumstances. You can't deny environmental influences. You can't deny poverty. You can't deny growing up abused. You can't deny those things. We have a real problem in this country is that we only treat.

• 1:41:10Joe Rogan?

  The side effects. We only treat the symptoms of this greater problem, the symptoms of the crime. The side effect, they're a side effect of poverty and of horrible environments and that never get fixed. And that probably a lot of them are there because of red line laws and because of Jim Crow laws. All of it started out in, you know, in the 1950s and 60s when they started making these places where you literally couldn't sell to black people. I mean, there's tracks of Baltimore that were like sectioned off where you could not sell these areas to black people.

• 1:41:44Speaker 02

  You would love this book. I mean, you, the cast by Isabel Wilkerson, I feel like a paid spokesperson for it, but she talks about how, you know, there's very real consequences from the practical implications of what Jim Crow laws did to fragmenting our society. And it's not, it's not as if this went on a thousand years ago.

• 1:42:06Joe Rogan?

  Right. It's, it would take hundreds of years to mellow out. You know, this is like, you're, you're talking about the civil rights movement. You can watch videos on YouTube of them siccing dogs on protesters. You can watch that. It's from the 1960s. You could see all that. That's my childhood. That's when I was a baby. That was going on. Okay? You know, and here I am, an adult, and there's people alive that experienced that, went through it, and then their children went through it because they carried that trauma.

• 1:42:34Speaker 04

  And, you know, resource is so important when it comes to defending yourself, too. I mean, I remember when I was a kid, I watched the OJ trial. And what eight million dollars can do is pretty extraordinary. You know, you can have juries that are simultaneously going on. You're testing theories out while the trial's going. And, you know, a lot of these guys get charged with crimes, they kind of get ushered through the system. You know, sometimes they'll get a good appointed attorney, sometimes they won't.

• 1:42:57Joe Rogan?

  That one, to me, seemed like that was gonna go that way anyway because of Rodney King. I don't think that had anything to do with being a good jury system or whether or not the prosecutors weren't as good as the defense attorneys. I think that was just horseshit.

• 1:43:13Speaker 04

  Kind of a foregone conclusion.

• 1:43:14Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, the way he's trying on the glove. He wasn't gonna just slip it on. It was a circus. But it was also a wake-up call to people that just because someone's guilty doesn't mean they get convicted. That, that you could see it that way, too. I remember watching that case, watching how they, they did it live on television, the verdict. And I remember being in my apartment going, whoa. This girl I was dating at the time, she started crying. She couldn't believe it.

• 1:43:40Speaker 02

  I, I, uh, I remember where I was when that verdict was read. I was shucking oysters at Barnacle Bill's on North Monroe when I was a student at Florida State.

• 1:43:49Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:43:49Speaker 02

  And I remember, uh, feeling like something really awful had just happened. But I understood it because of Rodney King and I understood it not just because of Rodney King, because of what had happened to the community in Los Angeles that for decades had been abused by police. Now, whether or not one wrong begets another and whether that's rough justice. You know, I don't even feel like I'm in a position to, to say, I don't think that there's ever been a more guilty person put on trial than OJ Simpson.

• 1:44:27Joe Rogan?

  Pretty fucking guilty.

• 1:44:28Speaker 02

  I mean, you have the victim's blood in your car, in your house. Well, I mean,

• 1:44:33Joe Rogan?

  It's extraordinary. Somebody gave me a copy of that book that he wrote, If I Did It, and my wife threw it out.

• 1:44:40Speaker 02

  Did you even get to read it?

• 1:44:40Joe Rogan?

  She wouldn't even let me read it. No. I never was gonna read it. It's one of those books I was just gonna put on the shelf.

• 1:44:44Speaker 02

  I just watched The Noon.

• 1:44:45Joe Rogan?

  The fuck is that?

• 1:44:47Joe Rogan?

  You know, there's certain books.

• 1:44:48Speaker 02

  It's so wild.

• 1:44:49Joe Rogan?

  You have somebody in your office, you go, look, somebody gave me this book. I'm not reading it.

• 1:44:52Speaker 02

  It's so, it's so difficult because, you know, one, one thing that always stuck with me about that case is the, and I won't mention them by name, the moral high ground that some of the lawyers involved have taken, you know, on various social and criminal justice reform issues. And always in the back of my mind, I'd be like, you fucking defended OJ Simpson. What are you talking about? That's number one. And the second part of it is the, the human cost behind that tragedy also. I have these seared images into my brain of that Goldman family. The sister and the father.

• 1:45:28Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:29Speaker 02

  Where they were very outward with their torment. And I recently watched the,

• 1:45:38Speaker 02

  I'm a sucker for it. I guess I'm admitting it for the true crime genre, but I watched the latest documentary. There's a new one on Netflix. There's always a new one. On OJ? On OJ. And it's very well done. It is. And it's like 30 years later. And I know that there have been a few. This one is excellent. And, you know, Kim Goldman is still, this ruined her life. And, you know, on the flip side, you have these, you know, when there's a wrongful conviction, that was in my mind, a tragedy going the other way. But when there's a wrongful conviction, it's not just the people that are in there doing all the suffering.

• 1:46:20Speaker 02

  It's their families. It's their kids. You know, there is, it has a ripple effect where there is a community of people fighting for them. And I just wish I had some sort of magical power to pull these prosecutors into what that emotional tumult is like. I was grateful that I had, you know, JD was able to let his guard down. And I don't know but for his experience being wrongfully accused of something and, you know, that he would have had the openness to hearing it. And, you know, the way that he was charged with a crime without a grand jury.

• 1:47:01Speaker 02

  And I don't think that there's a person among us that if in your worst moments, if someone was recording you and you're saying things you wish you didn't say to a significant other,

• 1:47:14Speaker 02

  that's what he did. That's the crime. I mean, hey, I'll tell on myself. There are things that I've done that if someone was recording it or things that I've said that I wish I didn't do or say, that, you know, but for the grace of God, go there, there, I fucked it up. Yeah, no. But, you know, I mean, I, anyone in their private moments, you know, and then to just use that to weaponize and, and.

• 1:47:43Speaker 02

  undermine, you know, to me, is he a perfect man? No, he's not a perfect man.

• 1:47:48Speaker 04

  Perfect man doesn't exist.

• 1:47:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, my saying it because he ended up agreeing with me? No. Has, he's, he's a human that errors, just like all of us. And I, I think we need more prosecutors, more judges like this man that have been on both sides of it. And are willing to set their egos aside, willing to, willing to suffer whatever consequences come from it. You know, he told me at one point, he, when he was nervous about doing this. These people ruined my life because I exonerated two people. He said, they've been after me ever since. And the fact that that sort of one upsmanship and that competitiveness that you referred to earlier. It's just sad to me that we can't get over ourselves enough.

• 1:48:33Speaker 04

  What bothers me so much is that I gave him that opening. I gave him that opening. And somebody was hurt that I cared about very much and, and, and used and exploited. And it's not like they're calling her today going, hey, how are you doing? Are you doing okay? I mean, it was simply, you know, political. It was just political in, in its entirety. And I, I feel like I had a lot more years, Joe, to kind of look at these kinds of cases because I was open to it. And, you know, when I, when I mentioned that, that those are just the only two I reviewed. How many more are there? And I'll never see them. And it was because of a mistake I made.

• 1:49:08Speaker 02

  Do you think you're gonna run again?

• 1:49:11Speaker 04

  You know, I really loved, I really loved the experience of politics. I was a door to door guy, Joe. I didn't have any money in the beginning because nobody gives you money when you first start. And so I just went door to door, like eight, nine hours a day. My dad would take me. My dad's 75 now, but he was 70 and he would take me.

• 1:49:27Speaker 02

  You're a big fucker. I wouldn't let you in my house. I'd be like, this guy's gonna rob me.

• 1:49:31Speaker 04

  Brother, you'd be surprised. You'd be surprised.

• 1:49:33Speaker 02

  People just let you right in?

• 1:49:34Speaker 04

  You know what? It's, it's, um.

• 1:49:36Speaker 02

  You look a little too dangerous.

• 1:49:37Speaker 04

  I got really good at kind of, at reading somebody when they came to the door. How quickly I could be, how, how, how much time I could take. My goal was to get you to smile, uh, be happy that I showed up and then leave before you asked me to leave.

• 1:49:48Joe Rogan?

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• 1:50:32Joe Rogan?

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• 1:51:14Joe Rogan?

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• 1:51:48Speaker 04

  And I really enjoyed doing this. I really, I thought it was gonna be, the rest of my career was gonna be politics. And so I'm at this kind of interesting crossroads where I don't really know what I'm gonna do next.

• 1:51:58Joe Rogan?

  Well, hopefully this conversation will help you in that regard.

• 1:52:01Speaker 04

  Yeah, maybe.

• 1:52:01Joe Rogan?

  You know, I'm sure it will. And I'm hoping that all this stuff that you revealed will cause people, let's be as charitable, as charitable about this as possible. Just review things and maybe take the correct approach.

• 1:52:16Speaker 04

  I hope it does.

• 1:52:17Joe Rogan?

  Because it seems like if you expose something to this extent that you have today, it seems like something has to be done. And if you, you can't just allow this to go on. There's too much, too much we know now.

• 1:52:30Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:52:30Joe Rogan?

  And too much has been revealed.

• 1:52:31Speaker 04

  I don't want egos to get in the way.

• 1:52:33Speaker 02

  Well, I also think that, you know, if there's more lurking beneath, it's gonna get found out at some point. You know, we've, we filed the public records request with the AG's office so that we could see what communications occurred between, if any, between the incoming prosecutor, Sillow, and Yost, who's the AG of Ohio. We're entitled to that. And, you know, at the time this decision came out, the first decision from Judge Cook, we filed a public records request with him and he sent it to us. And it turned out that, well, I don't know if it was before or after this decision, but this guy Rosenbaum was

• 1:53:16Speaker 02

  the one, I believe, that made the request, or that sent an email to Judge Cook saying, "You were at the Lorraine County Prosecutor's Office in the past. Maybe you shouldn't be sitting in judgment of this." So there are communications that must exist, I would think, between the AG and the prosecutor. But yeah, all this will come to light and we have, we're not going anywhere. We're gonna keep on pushing until, and the easy thing to do is just, all we're asking is look at the objective facts. That's why I want to do it. I think what, what would help, you know, in terms of reform, is what's the downside of hearing this out publicly? Let me make my presentation to you and make it a public hearing.

• 1:54:02Speaker 02

  What, what, what of, is there, what's the downside of the community knowing what evidence exists against these four men? Or the lack of evidence? And I just hope we, we end up connecting with, with them on some sort of human level so that they can put whatever it is aside that is causing them to have this pushback. And, you know, the, these, I used to be way harder on myself about making a change happen, and you know this because I've, you've watched my evolution in that regard. And I just realized we just gotta keep, you know, building the sandcastle one grain at a time.

• 1:54:43Speaker 02

  And when you, again, I said it before, I'll say it again, when you walk hand in hand with another individual and helping restore their freedom, I don't care, there's nothing like it. Yeah, there's no drug, there's no material, but there's just nothing that can match that feeling of having, of playing a role in that and helping them just live out their days breathing free air.

• 1:55:07Speaker 04

  You know what I find most interesting, and Nancy exonerates this, is like, the lack of bitterness is pretty amazing in some of these exonerations. You know, you're dealing with somebody that, that did 15 years for a crime, not only that she didn't commit, but that no crime occurred, and she's still not bitter. And they still fight her at every moment. Right now, she's battling, you know, you know, there's a statutory remedy for getting paid when you're an innocent individual and you're in jail, but you have a relatively high standard of proving you're innocent to get the money. There's nobody in a better position to prove they're innocent than Nancy Smith and Joseph Allen, and they still fight them tooth and nail every day. I mean, after the case exonerated them, I tried my hardest to, to forgo the interest of the state, and I actually stipulated in a motion that they were innocent, which is

• 1:55:52Speaker 04

  very unusual, because obviously that's acknowledging that the state screwed up pretty big, and because my goal was to get her paid. I mean, you know, I got criticized, you know, from some people that basically, you know, that that shouldn't be my role, but my role is, you know, if hurting the state... um represents justice then that's what happens and and sometimes it's costly you put someone in prison for fifteen years because you were reckless in the way you did it uh then they should deserve compensation and she was at the peak of her earning years you know she was a middle-class woman but she was at the peak of her life and you know I think what I really want to get out today is Amber is her daughter and she's got several uh children and they've become like family to me and Amber wanted to make sure that I told you how big of a fan she was Joe um but

• 1:56:35Joe Rogan?

  shout out to Amber

• 1:56:35Speaker 04

  shout out to Amber she's gonna love that but the the truth of the matter is I got to know them and I got to know the fact that like their story is the untold story imagine having your mom leave you

• 1:56:44Joe Rogan?

  right

• 1:56:44Speaker 04

  and then for the worst allegations that you could possibly have is child molestation and so every day they had to fight in school every day and uh the older brother had to take care of the family and the fact that she's still fighting to to to get paid fifty something thousand a year for the time that she was in that's what the statutory remedy is and they're still fighting it every minute eventually I had to get off

• 1:57:06Joe Rogan?

  it seems so crazy

• 1:57:07Speaker 04

  it's so crazy it's like it's like

• 1:57:09Joe Rogan?

  that's such a small amount of money

• 1:57:11Speaker 02

  it happens in every it happens in every state I was on the way here I just took his card out of my wallet I was on the way up here and I was sitting next to a guy that I asked to borrow his phone cord to charge my phone and we started talking and it turns out he's uh in the Florida House of Representatives his name is John Snyder Marine Corps veteran wasn't a lawyer which make which made him um in many ways a heck of a lot more down to earth um and he told me he got into politics because he was like tired of complaining and wanted to actually do something different and we got to talking where are you going

• 1:57:56Speaker 02

  I told him where I was going he happened to have you he happened to be listening to you and and Elon from the other day and uh I said I'm actually going there and he said um you know I'm a Republican and

• 1:58:12Speaker 02

  Growing up in this party, it was all tough on crime. And now I sit through the claims bill process. A claims bill in Florida is when you have been wrongfully incarcerated and you're asking the legislator to compensate you. And he said, "It changed my entire perspective on, you can be for a position or against a position, but you don't understand the subtleties and the vagaries until you're in it." And to have somebody, and then he took out his card and gave it to me and he said, "If there's any way I can help, there's some bills pending." And that kind of openness and that kind of, you know, he struck me as a guy that was

• 1:58:55Speaker 02

  super comfortable with himself and secure with himself, to be able to have that approach. And if we could all have that approach, I'm not right about, I've fucked up plenty. I'm not right about every position I take. I'm just trying to find, you know, some common ground. The humanity in all of us should always bend toward the truth. Right? And that's what we mean when we say we want justice for these men. That's what we want.

• 1:59:25Joe Rogan?

  It's undeniable. How could anybody argue with that?

• 1:59:28Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:59:29Joe Rogan?

  It's pretty well laid out.

• 1:59:30Speaker 04

  When we, when we talked about that 2008 hearing with Al Cleveland, I was a young attorney. I was probably 27 and I'd only been in practice for a year. And I remember being in there, waiting for my case to be called. I had another client. And I saw one of the most unbelievable, um, interactions I've ever seen in a courtroom still to this day was Al Cleveland begging William Avery Jr. to tell the truth, begging him. And I didn't know exactly what the facts were. I later found out, but, you know, I'm sitting in this courtroom, watching what seemed to be very genuine emotion. Um, and, and, and a man begging another man just to tell the truth so he can get out of prison. And it, it stuck with me. And, uh, and even now, it's like, Al's a very charismatic guy.

• 2:00:12Speaker 04

  Uh, you know, what's, what's devastating is what was his potential?

• 2:00:17Speaker 02

  Well, Al, Al and his wife, Roberta, are remarkable.

• 2:00:22Speaker 04

  Still married.

• 2:00:23Speaker 02

  Still married.

• 2:00:23Speaker 04

  Married the whole time, Joe.

• 2:00:24Joe Rogan?

  Crazy.

• 2:00:25Speaker 02

  And, you know, John Edwards is still suffering. He's in prison.

• 2:00:31Speaker 02

  Benson Davis and Lenworth Edwards, you know, my message to the four of you is I won't stop fighting. Unfortunately for my mental health, but fortunately for your prospects, I'm gonna keep digging until I get you guys free. And, um, thank you again. I always want to make sure I show my gratitude to continuing to give this forum. It makes a huge difference. I mean, if, if anybody, not saying it makes a huge difference is a terrible understatement. In my wildest dreams, if someone would have said to me, "The prosecutor that agreed to set these men free would be sitting next to you on the show," I would have, I would have bet the house against it.

• 2:01:15Speaker 02

  And I think that this is just a remarkable forum to be able to tell these stories and to get into the level of detail where we can touch people. And I, um, there's too many people in criminal justice reform that don't extend, you know, their hand to prosecutors and, you know, people in law enforcement. And I have, it's been an eye-opening and incredibly rewarding experience to get to know these folks that feel just as passionate about issues that are on the other side. And that's what, you know, has led me more to the middle. And, um, you know, I thank you for your humanity, J D. And I, I hope you do run for something again because we need more people like you in those

• 2:02:00Speaker 02

  seats.

• 2:02:01Speaker 04

  Well, you know, I appreciate you saying that. I think that, um, like you said, humility is important. And, uh, I've always tried to pride myself on, on, um, admitting when I'm wrong and knowing when I'm wrong and knowing when I don't know. I think one of the problems I see in society now is like, everybody wants to know and they don't know.

• 2:02:17Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:02:18Speaker 04

  And, and it's, it's, it's like, um, sacrilegious to say you don't know.

• 2:02:22Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:02:23Speaker 04

  And, and I find that to be really just lying. You know, if you're just guessing, you're just lying, really.

• 2:02:27Speaker 02

  It's also foolish.

• 2:02:28Speaker 04

  Yeah. And so I try to always put my ego in check and, and I'm telling you, I can't stress enough that doing defense work is really what allows that vision for me to kind of understand where it can happen because I've had innocent clients and, and in my experience, you know, it was most likely domestic violence cases. Because, you know, passions arise, there's cheating going on, there's infidelity, you know, emotions run high, it's easy to make accusations. And so those were the scenarios. Now, obviously, I gotta make a caveat, there's very terrible Damascus violence cases that are awful. But because of the dynamic between the victim and the perpetrator, that seemed to generate, in my view, any cases that I had that were innocent, typically were cases like that where, for example, the allegations didn't match up.

• 2:03:10Speaker 04

  So, you know, someone said they struck their head on the curb, but there was no injuries. You know, stuff like that. But it's so easy to get probable cause. Probable cause is very easy. And so, you know, I was so lucky when I got charged, I joked around with Jim Burge, my co-defendant and mentor for many years, who taught me a lot, was, "Thank God, I've got the smartest lawyer as a co-defendant ever." You know, and thank God, you know, because, I mean, you know, I was, and I also learned that I'm probably not the best client as a lawyer. I used to bitch about clients like me. And I think I'm that way, you know, I'm sitting at the defense table trying to dictate everything to my lawyer, you know, it's like, I wasn't the best client. And shout out to Mike Cameron, who was our lawyer, who really had to deal with me. But the truth of the matter is, when it happens to you, the only thing I disagree, Josh, is,

• 2:03:55Speaker 04

  even if it didn't happen to me, I knew that it could happen. I would have listened no matter what. I think that, you know, I was briefed about this case in 2022, 23. I was invited down to Cincinnati for a Ohio Innocence Project. But I think I was probably the only prosecutor in there. But I gotta be honest, I never really felt comfortable in the, in, we would go to Ohio Prosecuting Association meetings, my mentor and I, and we never really fit in. I mean, prosecutions, they're fantastic, but, you know, they're almost like the hall monitors in class. You know what I mean? And I always just thought defense attorneys were much more fun to hang out with. But, but, but we always kind of, and we would, because I have so much respect for defense attorneys, you know, I remember the presenters would go up and kind of clown on defense attorneys,

• 2:04:41Speaker 04

  and I'd look around, and me and Jim were the only ones pissed off. You know, we were pissed off going, hey, what the hell? You know, defense attorneys trying to do their thing, man.

• 2:04:47Joe Rogan?

  That's the opposing team.

• 2:04:49Speaker 04

  It is.

• 2:04:50Joe Rogan?

  The opposing quarterback's a pussy.

• 2:04:51Speaker 04

  And that's the problem. And that's the problem right there, Joe, is really we're all looking for the same thing, justice. And you hit it right on the head. It's about winning. And I almost trust, I trust police much more than I almost do prosecutors because it seems like there's an inherent desire for them to get it right. And it's more of the prosecutors that want to win.

• 2:05:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:10Speaker 04

  And I just had such a great experience with law enforcement and they changed my mind because I didn't really like the narrative and I criticized my own party about it. The anti, you know, law enforcement rhetoric is just unwarranted.

• 2:05:25Joe Rogan?

  Agreed. It's a terribly difficult job that gets no reward and your life is in danger every day.

• 2:05:31Speaker 04

  And Joe, when I was county prosecutor, I had about 10 police-involved shootings with fatalities in four years. So about two a year, two or three a year. Every one of them was good. Every one of them was good. And you know, I would get with the officers and I had a policy, which is a little unusual, where if I made a decision that a shooting was good, I would make a decision, that's it, and never went to the grand jury. It's easy for prosecutors to kind of just dish it off over the grand jury, then it's not their responsibility anymore. But I felt like I wasn't going to put something through the grand jury that I didn't believe in. So I had officers that, you know, the difficult part about being a police officer is when you have to use that lethal force, then you get people armchair quarterbacking it for the next six months. Do you know what I mean? On what you should have done, what you shouldn't have done.

• 2:06:15Speaker 04

  And, and what happens is what they get in the end of that is, hey, congratulations, you're not getting indicted. When in reality, maybe we should say, hey, thank you for saving your partner's life.

• 2:06:24Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:25Speaker 04

  And thank you for saving the community from a guy that's obviously dangerous enough to pull a weapon on a police officer.

• 2:06:31Joe Rogan?

  I was just watching an officer-involved shooting on one of the social media platforms the other day where there's this... Young, very large man who seemed to be, something was wrong. So, some, some mental issue.

• 2:06:44Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:06:45Joe Rogan?

  He was just talking crazy, maybe he was on drugs. The cops are trying to calm him down for like the longest time. It's a long, prolonged video, he escalates, and then he eventually gets physical. And I think they tried to tase him and it didn't work. And then they wind up shooting this guy and the officer broke down in tears when it was over. He was devastated, he couldn't believe he made, he had to do this. He was horrified, his hands were shaking. The other officer was comforting him, trying to get him to breathe and calm down. But you, you, when you see it in real life like that, you, you see what, how it actually went down. Like how they're trying to make these split second decisions and this big crazed guy who's out of his fucking mind is running at you.

• 2:07:26Speaker 04

  Right.

• 2:07:27Joe Rogan?

  And you don't know what to do, you don't know what's gonna happen, is this gonna be the end of your life? It didn't happen, that happens all the time, cops get their guns taken away all the time. It's a terrifying situation.

• 2:07:36Speaker 04

  And, and so I, I, I always am very careful to kind of parse out the fact that, you know, I'm always amazed by how much patience they really do show.

• 2:07:42Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:07:43Speaker 04

  I mean, the millions of interactions that happen every day. Now, listen, does it happen and there's, and there's bad conduct? Yeah, I indicted police officers when I, there were some I had to indict. Um, but I believe, I believe the vast majority just don't want, they just wanna go home.

• 2:07:55Joe Rogan?

  A hundred percent.

• 2:07:56Speaker 04

  They just wanna go home.

• 2:07:57Joe Rogan?

  The vast majority of interactions that people have with police are positive. You just only gets to see the ones that are negative, that get recorded.

• 2:08:03Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 2:08:03Joe Rogan?

  And then it's, you get sampling bias, cause all you see is negative and so you start thinking. And so, I mean, I'm sure you saw that Harvard professor who conducted that study about, um, violence and, um, and police encounters. And he, he found it was like, it wasn't biased towards black people and people attacked him.

• 2:08:23Speaker 04

  Right.

• 2:08:24Joe Rogan?

  Because we're seeing it every day, you're seeing these videos every day. But they're the only videos you're seeing.

• 2:08:28Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 2:08:29Joe Rogan?

  Those are the only ones you see.

• 2:08:30Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 2:08:30Joe Rogan?

  You don't see the, have a nice day, thank you for your service, I appreciate you too, knuckles, drive safe. You don't see those.

• 2:08:37Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 2:08:37Joe Rogan?

  You don't, those are real, those, those things happen where cops, you know, smooth things over and everybody's okay and they go home and everybody's fine. That, that happens too, that happens a lot, it happens way more than the other way. But you think cop murder, black people, bad, everything happened horrible, bang, bang, windows shot out. You, you see those videos over and over again and they run like a fucking slideshow in your mind.

• 2:09:00Speaker 04

  Yes, and, uh, but the, you know, th- those are statistically insignificant almost. When it comes to the grand scheme of things, I mean, it doesn't happen very often. When it does, we have to punish it harshly. But I just, I grew more respectful of police officers the closer I got to them.

• 2:09:13Speaker 02

  I think the big problem that people have these days is you see something and you see it often and you see it replayed. And it's just like you said, it becomes a slideshow in your mind and it's hard to know how frequent the occurrence is. I had an interesting thing happen to me recently where my son, Carter, made the travel baseball team and I'm like, he's like the new kid on the team because we moved from New York. And we went to our first tournament and we're, I'm the new dad hanging out because it's out of town. And I sit down at a table with these other three dads and they're introducing themselves and we just struck up a conversation.

• 2:09:59Speaker 02

  And we were talking about bias. And I said, you know, I would probably be the wrong, we were talking about, you know, juries and jury service. And he, I said, you know, I'd be like the wrong, oh, someone asked me, one of the dads asked me, how do I get out of jury service? I said, tell the truth. Because we're all biased, we all have a bias against something. And I was like, like for me, I've done a bunch of cases where corrections officers like did something bad to someone, so I'd probably be bad for a case like that. Because the reality is that most of them do their job and want to go home and it's dangerous. But I was, I was recognizing my own bias and I look around the table and they're all

• 2:10:44Speaker 02

  looking at each other smiling. And I knew it in that moment that one of them was a corrections officer. It was my buddy, my buddy, Ryan Gillis. And it was, it was like, oh, how do I wipe the shit off my foot? So I've gotten to know Ryan and he's a corrections officer in Florida. He's, and he's just a great guy. He's quiet and soft spoken. And my daughter was going to the county fair and there's like rough nights, some nights where like kids try to start fights and I was talking to him about it. And he goes, you know, I do security detail there and I'm gonna, I'm not there that night, but I'm gonna tell the guys, you know. If she has an issue, have her call.

• 2:11:28Speaker 02

  And he's just a, he's a great dude, you know?

• 2:11:31Joe Rogan?

  Just great people in all walks of life.

• 2:11:32Speaker 02

  And I look at him, and sometimes I'll be thinking, man, I wonder what his day was like. Because he has, you know, a really tough, dangerous job. And I have such deep respect for him. And it was like one of those moments where I was like, shit, that came out wrong. I articulated it wrong. And I think the problem that a lot of people have, and we're in a society where you, you're so quick to pick a side and to label something. And I'm just trying to do a lot less.

• 2:12:02Speaker 02

  Be quicker to listen and slower to speak when it comes to making some big judgment about a group of people. Because, you know, you gotta take each of these situations individually.

• 2:12:16Joe Rogan?

  Well said, so, well said. Words to live by.

• 2:12:19Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 2:12:20Joe Rogan?

  Um, I think we did it. I think we got it all out.

• 2:12:24Speaker 02

  I do too.

• 2:12:25Joe Rogan?

  I do. Thank you, JD.

• 2:12:26Speaker 02

  Thank you for having me.

• 2:12:27Joe Rogan?

  Really, really great, man.

• 2:12:27Speaker 02

  Thank you for having me.

• 2:12:28Joe Rogan?

  I really appreciate you doing this and I appreciate your honesty and the way you're able to express yourself.

• 2:12:33Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 2:12:33Joe Rogan?

  It was excellent. Josh.

• 2:12:36Joe Rogan?

  I love you.

• 2:12:38Speaker 02

  Lovely, Mo, bro. Thank you for everything.

• 2:12:40Joe Rogan?

  My pleasure. All right. Bye, everybody.