#2230 - Evan Hafer

Evan Hafer is a Special Forces veteran, founder/CEO of Black Rifle Coffee Company, and one of the hosts of the "Black Rifle Coffee Podcast." https://www.blackriflecoffee.com https://www.youtube.com/@BlackRifleCoffeePodcast Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day.

• 0:12Joe Rogan?

  Come on, brother, good to see you.

• 0:14Speaker 02

  Good to see you.

• 0:15Joe Rogan?

  So, this conversation was, well, anytime you want to come on, I'm always happy to talk to you, but this conversation was birthed out of that crazy conversation we had in elk hunting camp.

• 0:24Speaker 02

  Which one?

• 0:26Joe Rogan?

  Well, yeah, we had quite a few of them, where you just, you will open up my eyes to some of these, first of all, I never understood the extent of the manfuckery in Afghanistan.

• 0:40Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 0:41Joe Rogan?

  When we were talking, remember we were hanging out in front of the trucks and you were telling me about mumbles?

• 0:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 0:46Joe Rogan?

  There's a few conversations I've had with friends that for the rest of my life, now things are different, like now I look at, that one conversation, that one hour conversation we had, like, okay, the world's different now.

• 1:00Speaker 02

  You know, I always assume people have heard these stories from Afghanistan.

• 1:05Joe Rogan?

  Cheers, you gotta drink that.

• 1:08Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, sorry, you can't have cheers with alcohol.

• 1:10Joe Rogan?

  Buffalo Trace.

• 1:12Speaker 02

  So, yeah, the amount of man-on-man buggerie in Afghanistan is significant.

• 1:22Joe Rogan?

  Did they warn you about it before you went over there?

• 1:24Speaker 02

  No, no, I think there were so many different things about both Iraq and Afghanistan that the learning curve for all of us was so high. Culturally, you don't think about a lot of those things, you just don't, you just, you know, you grow up in America.

• 1:41Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:42Speaker 02

  You assume everybody, every man is basically like an American male, because that's at 26 or 27 years old. You know that there are cultural differences, for sure, but I'm telling you, I was in Kuwait for like the first time, early on, and I...

• 2:02Speaker 02

  The Kuwaitis like to hold hands, like the dudes like to hold hands. And that's not comfortable, like for guys.

• 2:09Joe Rogan?

  Isn't that weird though, because we do shake hands.

• 2:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:12Joe Rogan?

  You know what I mean?

• 2:12Speaker 02

  But you don't walk around

• 2:14Joe Rogan?

  I know.

• 2:14Speaker 02

  Holding another man's hand. It's just not comfortable in any scenario.

• 2:18Joe Rogan?

  But imagine trying to explain that to someone who didn't understand like what makes it gay. Like at what point in time does like holding on to a hand, does it get, you know, like there's like a meter, like you could kind of like hold on to a hot potato for a couple of seconds and it'll burn your hand.

• 2:33Speaker 02

  After a certain point, you're walking around, holding another man's hand and you've never really done it, probably since you were a kid, maybe holding your dad's hand when you're like three or four years old. And in special forces, they tell you, you know, you have to work with the cultural differences. And they're just talking in generals.

• 2:53Joe Rogan?

  Right, right.

• 2:54Speaker 02

  They're not specific because they don't know where you're going. And you're going to have to work by with and through the host indigenous force. So you have to accept some of the things, the cultural differences and just go with the flow.

• 3:07Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 3:07Speaker 02

  So as a new green beret, you know, as you know, SF guys, you're just walking around, holding another man's hand. You're so freaked out about it. You're like, oh man, oh man.

• 3:21Speaker 02

  What the, what the fuck does this mean? Like, you know, you're questioning your, all your reality, like, oh my God, you know, like in, and then after a few years, um, you know, time and repetition and war, whatever, somebody goes to hold your hand and you're like, get the fuck away from me. I'm not, I'm not doing that, bro. Come on. No, no, I'm not doing that.

• 3:40Joe Rogan?

  So you gave up after a while?

• 3:41Speaker 02

  Oh yeah. There's a lot of things you give up, right? You're, you're taught in SF, drink the tea, eat the food, you know?

• 3:49Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:50Speaker 02

  Do everything that they do. Yeah. Just completely assimilate. And honestly, like, a lot of that is really good. Because it does teach you to be a lot more open as far as listening to what they're going through from their tribal plights. Like what are they going through from a combat experience? What do they need? And you want, and you want to build rapport. That's what you want to do. And, but. Rep after rep in a war zone, you kind of get fatigued with that and then you're like, "Yeah, let's just get to the dirt here, man. Like, who do we want to kill? Like, let's, let's get to that." And, "Got it. You don't like that tribe. We don't like that tribe. We don't like this. You don't like that. Cool. Okay, so I'm not going to eat with you because every time I eat with you,

• 4:32Speaker 02

  I can't shit for like, a normal shit for like a year. So, we're just gonna not do any of that and..."

• 4:40Joe Rogan?

  You were telling me you literally didn't shit anything but diarrhea for, you said, more than a year?

• 4:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was years, man. I was, because I was living and working with the Afghans and, and I, I went from Iraq and I did the invasion with special forces from the south. And I did multiple rotations in Iraq, both with SF and then with the, the agency when I went over there. And then, when we did the, when we shut down Iraq in 2009, I turned around and basically went to Afghanistan, 2009. So I went from Iraq to Afghanistan and then went from Afghanistan, kind of finished up my, my CIA combat, I guess, experience and then went back to the States to do a training thing.

• 5:26Speaker 02

  But, by the time I got to Afghanistan, I had lots of time in Iraq. I had like four years on the ground. And Afghanistan was way different, but I was living and, and working with the Afghans. I was eating with them and your job is to not only train, assist, and advise, build rapport, but you're trying to figure it out. So you need to be on the ground with them, living, eating, breathing, sleeping, like the whole thing. And their, what we call the chow hall facilities, aren't the funliest. You're trying, like, you're working with them, you know, you institute different things like soap and water

• 6:09Speaker 02

  is like a good thing. And it doesn't really matter. You're still gonna get sick based on, you know, the water, where is it coming from, where, what type of well source? Like, there's, there's lots of different variables, obviously. But dude, I didn't have a solid shit for two years. And it was just kinda got normalized to the point where, you know, you're... It's such a gross thing to think about, man. You could not trust a fart, ever. I got this great, I got this great story. So I came in off the gun trucks and, uh... And I'm tired, I'm like, went into the embassy and I had a meeting with somebody in Kabul.

• 6:50Speaker 02

  And, uh, I had this like titanium mug that was like the size of a toilet bowl. And I'm filling it up with coffee. And I haven't slept for, I don't know, let's say 20 hours at a time. I'm fucking dirty. And I'm filling up this, uh, this coffee toilet bowl, basically, because I'm getting ready to go into a briefing.

• 7:11Joe Rogan?

  This episode is presented by Searchlight Pictures' Wild Horse 9. Shortly before Chile's 1973 coup, two CIA agents, played by John Malkovich and Sam Rockwell, find their mission on Easter Island spiraling into a web of conspiracies, unexpected alliances, and chaos. Wild Horse 9, only in theaters Friday. Get tickets now. This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. Hook up a better speaker to your TV and your home theater experience is immediately 10 times better. Or add a little extra treat to your dog's food. They get so happy at dinnertime. Sometimes it's worth it to go that extra step, to find people who will do that for your business.

• 7:56Joe Rogan?

  Check out ZipRecruiter. Try it for free at ziprecruiter.com/rogan. ZipRecruiter has what you need to find great candidates fast, like powerful matching technology to help sort through thousands of resumes, and a feature that puts people who are the most interested and most qualified first. Try ZipRecruiter and meet great candidates who'll go the extra step for your job. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Try it for free today at ziprecruiter.com/rogan. That's ziprecruiter.com/rogan. ZipRecruiter, meet your match on ZipRecruiter.

• 8:41Joe Rogan?

  This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. Scams have gotten smarter because criminals use AI to flood you with fake texts, emails, and phone calls that are designed to be more convincing than ever. One wrong click could put your personal information and your identity at risk. So protect yourself with LifeLock. LifeLock helps detect and alert you to threats. And if your identity is stolen, LifeLock will step in to fix it, guaranteed or your money back. Dedicated, US-based, identity restoration specialists will work with you until your identity is restored, backed by the million-dollar protection package, with up to $3 million in coverage for eligible losses and expenses.

• 9:23Joe Rogan?

  Visit lifelock.com and save up to 30% your first year with the promo code JRE. That's promo code JRE. Or go to lifelock.com/JRE for 30% off. Terms apply.

• 9:39Speaker 02

  And I let out a fart, and it wasn't a fart.

• 9:44Speaker 02

  And the dude behind me was like... I didn't even turn around, dude. I knew there was somebody waiting for me. And I shit my pants. And I didn't even turn around. Didn't even blink an eye. Didn't even like lift up the handle because it's normalized. And he goes, "Did you shit your pants?" And I was like, "Yeah." And I just turned around and walked off. It was like, it was the deputy ambassador or somebody. It was like, it was like the ambassador, right? And I was just like, "Whatever, dude. I got shit to do. I'm out of here." Yeah, yeah, that's, that's to the point of which I had a permanent stain in like my combat, my fatigues, right? It was just so bad. But I was like, "You know what, man? You got shit to do." Like...

• 10:25Joe Rogan?

  People adapt.

• 10:26Speaker 02

  You don't, you don't sweat little things like that. And honestly, you're just trying to like get through your... You're trying to get through any and all things and it's not like we're in trench warfare or anything like that. It's just like, dude, I had shit to do. I had people to train. We were going out and I couldn't let that like you can't pull over. If you're, you can at times, but there are just times where you just, you just can't. So you just gotta keep moving and it sucks. It's like the less glamorous side. I don't know if like, there's a lot of, a lot of books out there telling all the cool stories about that.

• 11:00Joe Rogan?

  So when did you find out about the buggery?

• 11:04Joe Rogan?

  Was it something that you need to lie?

• 11:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was. So it started in Kuwait and I had a, I had a Arabic linguist and he was a younger kid.

• 11:17Speaker 02

  You know, he was blonde hair, blue eyes, Mormon kid and he literally joined the army at 18. You know, two years later, after going to the Defensive Language Institute in Monterey, California, you come out and you're speaking Arabic, basically. And young kid, blonde hair, blue eyes, good Mormon kid comes out and he's with us. And the Kuwaitis kept talking about how they wanted to take him camping. We're like,

• 11:46Speaker 02

  why do you want to take that dude camping? Like, what's so special about that guy? You know, and you're like, after a while, you realize like, that's not what they wanted to do, right? They were like talking about it. Like either a joking way or a serious way, but that's the first exposure. Yeah.

• 12:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. And then. Did it take you a while to figure that out?

• 12:05Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. Because you're so naive. Like dude, I'm like, I'm 26 years old. Like, I don't fucking know. I don't, I don't think this is a thing. I, I grew up in Idaho. Like, I know, yeah, it exists, but I'm so, you know, blithely like moving through the world, like, thinking everybody's an, an American male, right?

• 12:25Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 12:25Speaker 02

  Now, this is weird. And then, you know, you go to Iraq or I went, you know, I went to Iraq and multiple, multiple rotations over there. And. You start to assimilate with the Iraqis you're either working with or you're training with. And then it kind of starts to to to fall apart where it's like, oh, this is somewhat normal. For them, now they don't talk about it. And I'm not saying it's like everyone, by the way, I'm saying like it's. It's at least relevant enough culturally where it's somewhat normalized and not talked about.

• 13:03Joe Rogan?

  Is this, is it similar in Kuwait as Afghanistan? Or do they vary? Iraq is different?

• 13:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're all a little bit different.

• 13:14Speaker 02

  The Afghanees, we had to have, depending on.

• 13:21Speaker 02

  Where we were in their barracks, living situation, like you had to put really hard restrictions, like. You know, no buttfucking guys for the majority of this because. This is a health issue. We weren't like, it's not like we were, we were putting bibles on their beds or something. We're just saying, hey, this is really unhealthy. You guys are going to spread a bunch of different diseases to one another and like. We've got a mission to to accomplish here. And every SF guy, every guy that's like been in Afghanistan knows what Man Love Thursday is. And it's kind of a, it's kind of a thing that they do.

• 13:52Joe Rogan?

  Is it just Thursday? Or is it? That's just a thing to say, but it's just they fuck each other.

• 13:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:00Joe Rogan?

  So there's the kid with the blue eyes. And after a while, you're like, hey, they don't really want to camp with them. They're trying to fuck this guy. And then you start thinking like, hey, how much of this is going on?

• 14:10Speaker 02

  That's, it's, it's exactly right. Yeah. And and then you're, as you're exposed to. Not more of it because you don't really see it. You hear about it. So. As you build rapport, build confidence in your friendships and people will start to talk about, but.

• 14:30Speaker 02

  It is fairly pervasive and I it's it's one of those things that you just kind of accept that that's happening from a good portion, a good portion of the guys.

• 14:43Joe Rogan?

  Fifty percent, sixty percent?

• 14:46Speaker 02

  Well, what we talked about, like kind of rewinding, it's it's the more disturbing factor is is it's it's

• 14:56Speaker 02

  socially indoctrinated in the children, like the sexual exploitation of children. So it starts early and then it moves into the adulthood. Bajabazi is a real thing and you know, it's dressing

• 15:12Speaker 02

  boys to look like girls and they have some Afghans, when I say some, I don't know how pervasive it is, but it's very it's it's a big percentage and the adult male stuff, that's like one subsegment of their culture, but it's the

• 15:33Speaker 02

  sexual exploitation of children that when you find that out, that's when things really turn for you psychologically. You're like this, this place is really fucked and it's and it's very pervasive. It's it's very, it's it's you know, if you go back and you read the kite runner, uh, when I read the kite runner when I was in Afghanistan, I realized that, you know, it's not only the story about this kid, but it's also the story of Afghanistan. It's very, very, the stories run parallel because children are sexually exploited regularly and it's mainly the boys, from what I understand, to the point of which

• 16:15Speaker 02

  I was driving out on this op, I guess, from Kabul to Jalalabad. And when I first got to Afghanistan, I used to see these truck drivers and I thought, you know, my dad was a truck driver. It's really cool. These truck drivers take their sons out with them on the road. That's such a really cool cultural thing. And my interpreter turned to me, he's like, those aren't their kids, dude.

• 16:39Speaker 02

  That's how fucking horrible it is.

• 16:43Joe Rogan?

  It's so horrible that they're on display.

• 16:46Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 16:46Joe Rogan?

  They're on parade even, you were saying. The guys would parade around their harem.

• 16:50Speaker 02

  Kandahar and different areas, they'll, they'll have parades. And they're on display as to, this is my harem and they're proud of it. And that was one of the most disturbing things that we would talk about specifically between like the departments, between Department of State, CIA and the militaries, like when you're out with the guys from a tactical and combat role, you see them and you interact with the way they are from a tactical level every day.

• 17:24Speaker 02

  And you'd bring this up to management and they would say, oh, that doesn't, what do you mean? That doesn't happen, that doesn't happen. Or they pretend it doesn't happen. But if you were on the ground in Afghanistan during the times I was there, honestly, from, you know, 2001, we'll say, to the time that we pulled out, everybody uniformly would agree with what I'm saying. I, I, if you, if you spent some time in Afghanistan, you knew that was happening.

• 17:50Joe Rogan?

  Jesus Christ.

• 17:51Speaker 02

  And

• 17:51Joe Rogan?

  Did you see these parades?

• 17:53Speaker 02

  No, no. We, but National Geographic, I believe, did an article on it several years ago.

• 17:59Joe Rogan?

  Chicago.

• 18:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. Vacha Bazi. I, I could be getting the pronunciation a little bit off. But it turns for you emotionally and psychologically, because you're like, okay, now, now I've got some hate.

• 18:18Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 18:18Speaker 02

  Right?

• 18:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 18:19Speaker 02

  Made my, made me, makes your job a little bit easier.

• 18:22Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 18:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:23Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 18:23Speaker 02

  Makes your job a little bit easier.

• 18:25Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 18:25Speaker 02

  It also makes it harder for you not to want to change the entire government system where you, you want to completely rewrite the entire DNA of the cultural infrastructure.

• 18:42Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 18:43Speaker 02

  Uh, because it's sad and it's, it's evil. And it's all of these like really horrible things. So as much as you want to help the Afghans and their plight, Yeah, there you go.

• 18:59Joe Rogan?

  Inside the Lives of Girls Dressed as Boys in Afghanistan. The cultural practice of ba- bacha posh?

• 19:05Speaker 02

  Bacha posh, that's a, I think that's a flip, that's the reverse.

• 19:09Joe Rogan?

  Encourages parents to dress their daughters as sons for a better future, but often it only makes life harder.

• 19:15Speaker 02

  That's a different, so it's boys is.

• 19:17Joe Rogan?

  Oh, so that's the opposite?

• 19:18Speaker 02

  That's the opposite, yeah.

• 19:19Joe Rogan?

  Girls dress as boys.

• 19:20Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 19:21Joe Rogan?

  So this is a different thing.

• 19:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:23Joe Rogan?

  Why do they do that? What's that about? Girls dressing as boys?

• 19:27Speaker 02

  Well, I think because, well, one, there's, there's a very low education rate, and when I come back to.

• 19:32Joe Rogan?

  Oh, so then you get the kids educated if they present as boys?

• 19:35Speaker 02

  Women are, are really seen as, in Afghanistan, I'm, I'm generalizing, right? I'm, I'm taking really big.

• 19:43Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 19:43Speaker 02

  Swaths of the Afghan culture, so I know this isn't every Afghan, I've got lots of different Afghan friends, and I've hired a lot of Afghans, this isn't everybody.

• 19:52Joe Rogan?

  What the, this, this is the dancing boys of Afghanistan? Go back up again, show what's going on, these guys are throwing money at this dancing boy? Back that up, Jamie?

• 20:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was, I just clicked somewhere random, kinda, trying to get back to it.

• 20:05Joe Rogan?

  Oh. What the fuck, man?

• 20:09Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 20:11Joe Rogan?

  But those are like little boys, and they were dancing like strippers, and these guys are throwing dollars at them?

• 20:16Speaker 02

  Yes. Yep.

• 20:19Joe Rogan?

  Oh my god, this is so crazy.

• 20:21Speaker 02

  And they're younger, so they go much younger, this is the, like, this is the thing that people that don't want to talk about in Afghanistan, that we talked about regularly, which was, these are very, what we feel are distinctly, um, wrong. These are very wrong things from a, a, a American support, tactical and strategic intervention, like, we should not encourage this whatsoever. And it made it very difficult at times for us to, uh, trust with the State Department, or somebody else was saying, but I mean, this, this goes back to, you know, Iraq, and honestly, trust in policymakers and the State Department, and their, their entire,

• 21:06Speaker 02

  you know, position, either politically, philosophically, it's, it's just fundamentally flawed.

• 21:13Joe Rogan?

  So when you're hearing about this, and the, the, one of the things about. Um, child molesting is that if these kids are growing up in this culture where they're going to be an adult and they're going to do that to kids as well, which has probably happened to all of these guys, right? Like, this is, you can't, you're not gonna fix that with all these people alive. Like, the culture gets to a point where it's so fucked that it's like, how do you, how can you ever fix that? How many generations would it take before the scars of all those people being abused wears off and normalizes and people can be normal again?

• 21:55Joe Rogan?

  People can be like, well, we would consider a western civilization, like London or or New York. Like, how?

• 22:04Speaker 02

  That the, what we feel is the morally appropriate cultural boundaries. That's, that's like, how many generations would it take? And there's lots of different things that you can talk about because the history of Afghanistan is, we'll say, post eighties and Soviet intervention and then, you know, with the Taliban pushback with the Mujahideen and like, they've completely destroyed the education, the progress and evolution of Afghanistan. I mean, they had decades of war, then you had basically a failed state with Taliban and extremist control.

• 22:49Speaker 02

  I mean, as the Taliban moved in, fundamentally, it, it's an evil organization. I went, there's a soccer field in Kabul where the Taliban used to stone women to death because they weren't wearing their hijab. Or the, the rule of a woman would be raped and she would be accused of infidelity on her husband and they would stone her. Or they would beat her with a stick. And they turned the soccer field into a place where they could have public displays for execution. It, it was completely insane. When you, when you think about it from where we're coming from and then where we're going and we're, we're trying to...

• 23:36Speaker 02

  Nation build, which I have like fundamental disagreement with that as well, but you eliminated the educated portion of your population, you swung to a very extremist fear-based religion, and then it was all based on the Quran as far as their education system. So they completely separated the women away from being able to evolve. They treated them as beasts of burden. You had to be Islamic extremist to be acceptable. It was a completely hegemonic,

• 24:16Speaker 02

  theoretical state, or hegemony as far as like it's the theocracy ran everything and it was a very extremist version of Islam. And as we came in, and I wasn't there in 2001, I came there much later, I came there in 2009 was my first real rotation there. It had been seven years, but really it was almost like going back in time, almost a thousand, it felt like you're going back in time like a thousand years.

• 24:50Joe Rogan?

  That's one of the things we were talking about in camp, that when you hear about Socrates and all these ancient cultures, the Spartans, all these people that like had boys.

• 25:02Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 25:03Joe Rogan?

  And you, you, you see what's going on in Afghanistan, you realize like how old a culture Afghanistan is. It's like one of the oldest civilizations in terms of like the way they behave. It's almost like they never caught up with the Western world. I think it was, Michael Shermer might have wrote a book, a paper about this. He wrote an article about how Islam's the only religion that didn't go through the Enlightenment. And that it's essentially maintains the same values and, you know, the same cultural values as when it was created. So, you know, what, how old is Islam?

• 25:40Speaker 02

  1600, I think, I think it's like 500 years past Christianity. So this called 1500 years.

• 25:51Joe Rogan?

  1500 years old, whatever it is. That, that's how people behaved back then. That's what it is. And when you think about like Alexander the Great, Alexander the Great, who was gay, right, who conquered much of Afghanistan and giant swaths of the world.

• 26:06Joe Rogan?

  He probably like his army and his behavior and what he probably stained that area with like a type of behavior.

• 26:16Speaker 02

  I think you're 100% right. I think that you had portions of the world that were culturally cut off from being able to evolve at the same rate as some of the other places within the Middle East. And those tribes essentially haven't had the opportunity to evolve because they've been very isolated. I mean, you look at Afghanistan, it's extremely isolated area of the world. And if you go back to the 70s, it was relatively progressive, somewhat secular. And then the Soviet intervention, the collapse, the failed state led to the rise of the Taliban because they had eviscerated all of the intellectual and the economic class. And in order to succeed

• 27:01Speaker 02

  or live there, you had to completely capitulate to the theocracy and the fascist state. So you had to go back in time to live. You had to grow a beard. And when I say this, is it everybody is 100% no? I'm saying like, this is the way people live. They lived under tyrannical rules that provided zero opportunity for, you know, if you had girls, sorry, they're a piece of burden. They treat goats and donkeys better than their girls, their children.

• 27:38Speaker 02

  The homelessness of children in a war zone is so heartbreaking. Like, it is, it strips away at the goodness in your soul, watching desperation. And when you see homeless children every day in these cities that are dirty, starving, and there's really not a lot you can do because you have a war to fight. And you not only think about it from the homelessness position, you think about the exploitation position. Like, these kids are so fucked.

• 28:21Speaker 02

  They're homeless, they don't have parents because maybe their fathers were either, you know, killed in the war, their mothers can't, they can't afford to keep them, and they continue to have more kids, and especially if they've been raped, then there's a cycle of not only exploitation and violence, but then it's also, it keeps them down economically. So you have massive amounts of children that were homeless and exploited, and they're starving. And it's, you know, you, from my perspective, when you live in that environment, and you

• 29:05Speaker 02

  can't think about it. Like, you have to shut that stuff out. Because if you think about it, it's like opening the door of the submarine.

• 29:14Joe Rogan?

  All the water's coming in.

• 29:16Speaker 02

  All the water's coming in, and it's gonna fucking sink ya. So you have to, you have to build a, for lack of a better term, man, you have to build a callous on your soul.

• 29:27Joe Rogan?

  Oof.

• 29:28Speaker 02

  Because you can't function and meet and exceed your mission success criteria if you're gonna, if you get steamrolled by depression on what you're seeing every day.

• 29:43Joe Rogan?

  Oh, my god.

• 29:44Speaker 02

  Time and repetition, which is one of the big problems, I think, with the GWOT community, or at least what we've had in the last 20 years. I mean, there's lots of different compounding factors that I think contribute to the acceleration of veteran suicide, which I don't want to, like, launch into some, like, rant about the issues that we're, I think we're all faced, but it's definitely something that I'm extremely passionate about.

• 30:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I'm really hoping, and we've talked about this a bunch of times in this podcast, but I'm really hoping that something's gonna change with RFK and about psychedelics and veterans. I really, really am hoping that they open their eyes to this stuff.

• 30:24Speaker 02

  Well, I was talking to Marcus Capone, and he runs VATS, which, he's the guy, his organization, is the organization that takes the guys to Mexico to do IBAGA, and Marcus is a retired SEAL. I was talking to him yesterday, actually, and...

• 30:43Speaker 02

  We, I'll go off on this, which is, you know, we as a subculture from the global war on terror community, the veterans, we're under an epidemic of suicide and depression. And the VA has not been a help to us, especially the warfighters, like the guys that are, we have rogered up time and time and time again. They've gone overseas, we've done the bidding for the country. We've watched our friends get killed and fucking torn in half in like very ultra violent ways. We've been exposed to overpressure and chemicals and all these other things. And then we come back and within the VA system, their answer is, here's your pills,

• 31:27Speaker 02

  here's your retirement, shut the fuck up. And it's not working. Marcus and I were talking about this yesterday. He was on antidepressants for seven years. Seven years, like antidepressants, they weren't working. And he-

• 31:45Joe Rogan?

  This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Look, it's good to prepare for the future, but when you start over analyzing what's happening around you, dreaming up every hypothetical situation of what could happen, that's when it gets dangerous. You can start to hyper fixate and stress out and all over things that haven't even happened. That's no good for current you or future you. If you're struggling to stay in the present and out of your head, try talking with a quality therapist from BetterHelp. They have psychologists, family therapists, marriage counselors, social workers and more.

• 32:25Joe Rogan?

  Whatever you need to work through, BetterHelp can match you with a seasoned professional with the specialty that you need. BetterHelp is now a network with more than 125 health plans with many copays as low as $15 for eligible members. And if you don't have eligible insurance or live outside the US, you can still get 20% off your first month. Sign up and get 20% off at betterhelp.com. That's better H E L P dot com. This episode is brought to you by Chime. And I know people don't usually get excited about banking, but Chime is doing something different and it's worth paying attention to. In a recent survey, they ranked the number one choice for new checking accounts in America.

• 33:10Joe Rogan?

  That means real people, millions of them, are choosing this over traditional banks. That's because banking at Chime is fee-free. No monthly fees, no overdraft fees, and thousands of fee-free ATMs. But here's the real kicker. If you get their Chime card, it gives you 5% cash back on a category you actually pick yourself. Your savings rate, crazy high. It's nine times the national average. They're calling it the most rewarding way to bank. Go to chime.com/rogan. Takes a few minutes to sign up. Chime is a fintech, not a bank. Banking services and Chime card provided by Chime's bank partners. Terms and limits apply. Go to chime.com/disclosures for more details.

• 33:56Speaker 02

  Just by chance, his wife, I believe, said this might work. We need to go to Mexico and do Ibogaine. This might work. So here's a guy that went, did it one time. He's never been on antidepressants since.

• 34:12Joe Rogan?

  Did he have to get off them before he went there and did it?

• 34:14Speaker 02

  I don't know exactly what the protocol is, as far as like you have to get off and then you have to get back down there. I know that most of my friend group now, they've done it. And...

• 34:27Speaker 02

  They have an extremely high success rate. You know, vets has done a thousand

• 34:33Speaker 02

  former warfighters and they have an extremely high success rate where they're eliminating pharmaceuticals. So they'll go down, they'll do it one time, maybe they've done, you know, subsequent sessions. And they have this really high success rate. And this is Better than anything. Yes, this is part of the issue. Yeah. Is we're under an epidemic of veteran suicide, like more so than we ever have. And the worst thing about this too is it's also affecting our family and our kids. Like our kids are four times higher to commit suicide than our peer set. So it's not just, it's not just the GWOT veteran community. Now it's our families and our, and our children. You have something that has such a proven track record to help heal

• 35:19Speaker 02

  vets. And we can't do it without breaking the law. We have to leave the country. It's insane. So you can send me to Iraq under false pretenses. And, you know, you can have Wolfowitz and Cheney and Rumsfeld and all these, this like orchestra of fucking idiots can send us all to Iraq. But with, for weapons of mass destruction. We can go fight the wars, come back. And now we have to break the law to go fix what's wrong with our, our heads or, you know, our emotions or, or, or not only our psychology, but dude, we're broken. Like we've been beat up and kind of shoved in a closet. And then we're sedated and told to shut, shut the fuck up.

• 36:05Speaker 02

  And meanwhile, you know, Wolfowitz and Bremer and all these other guys, they get to walk around and provide, you know, public speeches about how fucking great they are because they're, you know, strategically important. Whereas my peer set, we're under an epidemic of suicide. Our kids are committing suicide. The, the VA is no help to us and we have to go break the law.

• 36:30Speaker 02

  It's like you get to go flip a fucking coin and paint some paintings and you think that everything's okay?

• 36:35Joe Rogan?

  And that one doesn't make any sense. Out of all the ones, that's one that mushrooms you can do recreationally. No one's doing recreational ibogaine. I've never done it before. Have you done it?

• 36:45Speaker 02

  No.

• 36:46Joe Rogan?

  I've never done it, but everybody that I've talked to, they said it is one of the most ruthlessly introspective journeys in your life. You don't, it's not fun at all. Dakota Meyer told me, he's like, I fucking hated it. I couldn't believe someone made me do it. After it was over, I was like, what the fuck am I doing? It's not a fun time. It's not a recreational drug. It's not a drug of addiction. It's not a drug of dying. It's not... What's the LD, let's find out what the LD-50 rate is for ibogaine. It's probably bananas. It's probably just like psilocybin. Probably can't really overdose on it.

• 37:19Speaker 02

  No.

• 37:19Joe Rogan?

  I don't know that.

• 37:20Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 37:20Joe Rogan?

  Ibogaine might kill you. It sounds really crazy potent.

• 37:23Speaker 02

  Most of my, my close friends have done either ayahuasca or ibogaine. Neither of which they would say is a good time. All of which have said, all of which, 100%. And they've come back and been not only fundamentally changed but better. And these are, you know, my business partner, Jared Taylor, he's gone and done ibogaine. And then multiple other people that probably don't want me to talk about them on the podcast. Guys that have been on 15, 20 different pharmaceuticals can literally scrape them off their dresser into a garbage can the day they get back.

• 38:03Joe Rogan?

  Crazy.

• 38:03Speaker 02

  And the fact that we aren't trying to evolve this section of the medicine, I know that Stanford did a study. I'm not exactly familiar with all the data associated with it. But the fact that we aren't leading the charge as a country to come up with dynamic, out of the box solutions for the guys that have gone overseas and, you know, done the hard and courageous task for this country and then they come back and they can't get help and we're not pushing the envelope? That's a crime. I mean, I've got lots, I've got lots of issues with, you know, Iraq at this point, right? I mean, it's fundamentally...

• 38:47Speaker 02

  I've told this to people, like Iraq is with me every day, right? Afghanistan was was a part of my life, but Iraq fundamentally changed me for the rest of my life. And I think about it every day. It's not going away. It'll never go away. And

• 39:02Joe Rogan?

  What about Iraq that was much different than Afghanistan that changed you?

• 39:06Speaker 02

  Um, well, it's the first war experience I had and,

• 39:14Speaker 02

  you know, for me, I was like hook, line and sinker, regime change, you know, move. We've got to find weapons mass destruction. We've got to eliminate the threat. We got to fight them there so we don't have to fight them here.

• 39:27Joe Rogan?

  Everybody thought it was real.

• 39:27Speaker 02

  Hell, yeah. Yeah. I mean, there is nobody more motivated to go to war than than me, you know? Yeah, I mean, I'm sure there was, but you know what I'm saying.

• 39:36Joe Rogan?

  You were in that group. You were gung ho.

• 39:38Speaker 02

  Oh, 100%. It's not only, hey, we're going to go to war. We're going to do something good for America. These guys attacked the United States. We're we're going to eliminate the terrorist threat.

• 39:52Speaker 02

  And, you know, war is such a strange and surreal circumstance. Because it changes you for good. It changes you for the bad. And I've looked at this a lot. And I looked at like life experience like a radio wave, almost like a band where you have highs, you have lows and most people, we'll call it 90 plus percent of the United States, their their frequency only gets so high and only gets so low. And it basically stays within, we'll say, a fairly small band within the center. Combat, what happens is you go really high and you go really low and it forces you outside of social norms on a second to second basis.

• 40:36Speaker 02

  And then you do that over and over and over again. And so one person might get in a car wreck in their life and that goes really low. So it's a really high adrenaline dump and it goes really low because they have an injury. That's like one thing. Well, going out in a combat zone multiple night, like not only multiple nights a week, sometimes you're doing multiple targets a night. You might go on, you might be getting what the rough equivalent of an adrenaline car wreck. What the rough equivalent of a car wreck from an adrenaline dump and a high and a low. You might doing that three or four times a night.

• 41:13Speaker 02

  And then you're doing that night after night, week after week. And it fundamentally changes you because you have to chop all of this down because if you get too ramped up and too chaotic, you're gonna lose control and you won't be able to complete your mission criteria. If you get too low, you also won't be able to achieve your mission criteria. Your survival instincts kick down. So it chops your ability to feel all the way down to a normal person's bandwidth because it's a survival mechanism. And this is just my own assessment. So from a combat experience perspective, the first time you feel it,

• 41:58Speaker 02

  and I'll tell you, I mean, the first time I was in an ambush, I was losing my shit. I mean, anybody who tells you they're not fucking scared, they're either like fundamentally flawed, they're like Travis Pastrana, he doesn't have like a fear portion of his brain, or they're just lying. Like, you're scared out of your fucking mind. Like, going north, like, driving north into Iraq, you're looking into the deep, dark abyss of the unknown. And you're like, what the fuck? Am I gonna be a coward? You know, am I gonna live? Am I gonna die? I mean, our casualty, projected casualty rates was that we were gonna lose most of our ODA. So you're stepping into a situation where you're going, okay,

• 42:42Speaker 02

  well, I know out of this six shooter that I'm gonna play Russian roulette with, there are four bullets in this.

• 42:48Joe Rogan?

  Oh my god.

• 42:49Speaker 02

  And you're driving north going, okay, let's fucking do it. So you've already capitulated and given yourself up to die, which is, it's actually a very cathartic, and I think personally...

• 43:04Speaker 02

  An experience that you can evolve from because at that point if you're dead, you can live uninhibited. Like everything I do from this point forward is gravy on the steak, man. I'm already dead. Right. I was driving north in Iraq and I like through like the desert and my best friend and I are like driving north and and you have like hours to stare off into the fucking sand, you know, you're you've got night vision goggles or whatever. I had a whole fictionalized funeral for myself.

• 43:43Speaker 02

  I just fucking, what else am I gonna do, right? You're just like driving north, you know, and there's nothing going on. So I had a whole fictionalized funeral. I buried myself. And so I was already dead, or at least I felt like that. And then we get in our first engagement and the world starts cracking apart and your mind can't keep up to what what's actually happening. You'll hear the gunfire. And, you know, I felt I felt the explosion. I looked in the rearview mirror of the Humvee, which just sounds crazy. I looked in the rearview mirror. And I saw this like car sized chunk of fire flying behind the vehicle, like so distinctly remember this.

• 44:29Speaker 02

  And I'm turning my my team leader and I'm like, we gotta get the fuck out of here. You know, I'm like losing it, right? It's so stupid. It's so stupid. We gotta get the fuck out of here. You know, like losing it, dude. I'm just fucking losing it. And he's like, and he's cool, man. He's like calm, cool. He's on the radio, you know, he's like, you know, vehicle one, you know, or vehicle three, this is vehicle one, vehicle three, this is vehicle one. And we're checking to see.

• 44:56Speaker 02

  If we have comms between us and the other vehicles. And I'm fucking losing it. I'm like, "Get the fuck out of here!" You know, it's like, okay. Because, I mean, you know, you're used to like, watching movies or whatever, and it's the first time anything like this has ever happened.

• 45:09Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 45:11Speaker 02

  And, and at this point, you know, the full insurgency hasn't kicked off, that we're hunting Fatahian. These guys weren't the most sophisticated cats on the planet. They weren't that good, so... But, we end up pushing through, and then consolidating at the end of this. And fundamentally, this like changed my tactical experience in combat forever. Because my team leader, who I respect and love, he was killed two years later. He's one of my best friends, was my best friend.

• 45:44Speaker 02

  He turns to me and he goes, "Hey, man.

• 45:48Speaker 02

  If you don't have a solution to the problem, just shut the fuck up."

• 45:56Joe Rogan?

  That's great advice.

• 45:57Speaker 02

  I know.

• 45:58Joe Rogan?

  That's great advice across the board.

• 45:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I... I was like, "Okay, Roger that." You know, I was like, "Okay, fucking Roger that, man." And then it became...

• 46:10Speaker 02

  A practice discipline. When shit's going super sideways, and, you know, bullets are... When bullets are flying. I hate sounding like that. I don't want to say, I don't want to sound like that at all.

• 46:26Joe Rogan?

  But that's what it is.

• 46:27Speaker 02

  Dude, you keep your shit together. And then I became, by the time I, my last ambush in Iraq I was in, was, I'll bookend this experience with ambushes. Yeah, I was in Mosul, and I was in a little BMW, trying to work my way, and I was working as basically a low, like, you're trying to fly under the radar, you're low vis, CIA at this point. So we're trying to blend in, we hit a checkpoint, and they light us up. And, so now I'm alone in a car with another guy, and the CIA chief.

• 47:06Speaker 02

  And, the entire Iraqi army in Mosul, Iraq, is essentially pursuing us through the, from, I mean Mosul is the size of Los Angeles, and I started at the north end of Los Angeles, basically, and had to work my way to the southern end of Los Angeles being shot at. And... And I'm trying to sort through the problem, man. Like, I got a fucking map sheet. And you don't know, I mean, this is, this is Mad Max in the fucking Thunderdome. And Mosul was one of the most fucked up cities in Iraq. Like, it was, it looked like going back to Stalingrad in different sections of this place. It was a complete shitshow.

• 47:46Speaker 02

  And I'm alone with my, you know, the guys with. And I'm trying to navigate through the city and help the driver. We were being pursued from, from literally north to south. Yeah, being shot at, and we're going, okay, right turn, right turn, right turn. And, I mean, I have the, I have, like, the dragons are at the bumper. They're gonna fuck it, they're gonna pull me out of this car and chop my fucking head off. Like, they're gonna turn my car into Swiss cheese, they're gonna fucking chop my head off. I'm dead. We're dead. And I have, like, I brought up, Kyle was, they were on station. We had a really good, really good relationship with these, with these guys.

• 48:27Speaker 02

  And I was like, hey, you know, you, this is me, I'm in a, you know, black BMW, like... And, you know, I'm moving, you know, from north to south. And, uh, and the helicopter came back, so, oh, I know who you are. Fuck, you got the everybody following you. Cause we, and not all checkpoints are created equal. And for whatever reason, they decided they were gonna kill us that day. And, I mean, you don't have time, you're not gonna sit around and be like, why do you guys wanna kill us? Well, we're just good guys, you know? Uh, you're just gonna keep moving. And I had to work my way all the way south.

• 49:05Speaker 02

  To a bridge. And I had like one last, one last fucking Hail Mary, man. Like, we had to get across, we had to get across a bridge into a place called Diamondback. And I didn't have a QRF because they couldn't pin us down at Quick Reaction Force. And, um... Like the Kiwis, like they, they saved our life because they had, they had the roads blocked off on the bridge. And I was basically smoking in at like a hundred fucking kilometers an hour. And the Kiwis came down and like literally dropped their fucking skids on the front of the, on the, on the front of the car. And panned around like, we're gonna kill all you fuckers.

• 49:44Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 49:45Speaker 02

  And I looked over at one of the guys, I looked over and like flipped them off. And I was like, you dead, you know, and then like, uh, like parting the seas like Moses or whatever. They moved the fucking cars and we, we drove back in and that was, that was it. So bookending, my point of that conversation was, I was losing my shit, the first one, right? And I, I came back and I was talking to Kiwis and they're like, bro, we didn't know how bad this was because it sounded like you were ordering a pizza.

• 50:20Speaker 02

  But everything, everything in between was like, like rep after rep after rep after rep was like, like, calm down, keep your shit together. And one of my really close friends, uh, this guy Jeff Kirkham, my first team sergeant, like awesome fucking guy. Like one of the most tactically relevant people in my life. Uh, he's like, psychology is more contagious than the flu. So when you start losing your shit.

• 50:52Joe Rogan?

  Oh, that's so true.

• 50:53Speaker 02

  It infects everybody else around you.

• 50:55Joe Rogan?

  What a great quote. Psychology is more infectious than the flu. That is a great quote.

• 51:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, man.

• 51:04Joe Rogan?

  That's so real.

• 51:05Speaker 02

  So real.

• 51:06Joe Rogan?

  That's so real.

• 51:09Joe Rogan?

  That's so real. With everything.

• 51:12Speaker 02

  Everything.

• 51:13Joe Rogan?

  Everything.

• 51:14Speaker 02

  It controlled every piece of what I would do from that point forward. Like lose your shit in a, in a gunfight. And then you infect everybody else around you.

• 51:26Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 51:27Speaker 02

  Rise to the occasion, be the calm in the chaos. Become, you know, even if you don't feel like it, even if you're, you're wigging out, man.

• 51:36Joe Rogan?

  Of course.

• 51:37Speaker 02

  Internally, you can't, you can barely keep your shit together. But what you do is you're like, okay, but I gotta, I, I gotta project.

• 51:48Speaker 02

  This, because if I infect everybody else with my chaos, I'm injecting more chaos into the equation and we're all, we're all gonna run the possibility of dying because of this, because of my actions.

• 52:00Joe Rogan?

  I think that's why people gravitate towards inspirational figures, is because they're trying to get some of that psychology, they're trying to get it worn off on them. You know, great quotes and great feats and fascinating people, you wanna absorb some of that psychology. That is such a great, great quote though, cuz it's so true. If you're around someone that's freaking out, you're trying to keep your shit together, it's so hard to keep your shit together.

• 52:26Speaker 02

  You can't, but if you're around a bunch of dudes-

• 52:28Joe Rogan?

  Just stoic.

• 52:29Speaker 02

  -that are surgeons and stoic-

• 52:31Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 52:32Speaker 02

  And they, there's no flexion.

• 52:35Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 52:35Speaker 02

  What I would say is like, in the time and repetition in the community, I mean, there's a default emotion that is acceptable, it's, you know, anger.

• 52:46Speaker 02

  Right, so anger and when I say joy, it's like joy from gallows humor typically, right? But it's like, you have to, everybody becomes a stoic.

• 52:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 52:57Speaker 02

  Nothing can faze you, and if you are a guy that is phased-

• 53:02Joe Rogan?

  You're a liability.

• 53:03Speaker 02

  You're a liability, you're gonna get chopped.

• 53:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you're, you're infected.

• 53:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

• 53:10Joe Rogan?

  Phew.

• 53:11Speaker 02

  So Iraq, so going back to what, what I was talking about with Iraq.

• 53:17Speaker 02

  I'm supercharged and my reality started to kind of crumble is, uh, we met up, we went up, we were on the first ODAs and we, we did this joint op with the CIA to go meet this guy, Muqtada al-Sadr. This is early on, this is like March of the war, and-

• 53:39Speaker 02

  McTodder Sodder became a prominent figure later on in the war. He was really relatively well, like not known at all in the beginning of it. And I was working with the CIA case officer at that point, not just me, it was like my entire team. And McTodder's like, he's a bad guy. Like, he's just a real piece of shit. And at that point, on the Jaffa was this town. And we went out, had a meeting with him. And we came back and all of us on the military, paramilitary side, we're like, this guy needs to die. Like, we need to actually go and he has a small armed force. He's basically gonna be the instrument of the Iranians. And we're having this big debate in the team room.

• 54:23Speaker 02

  And everybody that carried a gun, like, we speak...

• 54:29Speaker 02

  We speak animal kingdom. We know when there's a threat.

• 54:33Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 54:33Speaker 02

  And then we had this case officer who was like a, you know, adjunct professor at fucking Georgetown, like I didn't know his ass from a hole in the ground. And we're like, this guy needs to die, we need to go, like, get on him now. And the case officer was like, no, he's gonna work with us, you know? And we're like...

• 54:52Joe Rogan?

  They wanted him to be an asset.

• 54:53Speaker 02

  Yeah. Like, this guy is fucking stupid. Like, this guy's a, he's a Shia, supposedly Shia cleric. You know, if you know Iraq, you got 60% of the country Shia, it's typically gonna answer Iran. You've got 15, 20% is up north, it's the Kurds. And then you've got the rest is Sunni. And we're like, this guy's not gonna fucking work with us. And this guy's a real piece of shit and he's already spinning up a militia. He's gonna be a problem. No, no, no, no. And we're like, okay, like, you're the big brain on Brad, you know? You're the PhD, man, like, sure, you know? So, we acquiesce.

• 55:37Speaker 02

  And years later, I don't know how many guys died going into, going back into Najaf trying to find this fucking guy. I don't know how many, I mean, it was a whole basically surge push of probably a division to try to go find this guy, but we had the opportunity to kill him right there. Like literally, we could have, like, he had less than 40 guys on the compound and we could have like, gone out and got him right, like, that night. And, uh, and then he became a problem. And not only did he become a problem, it was like the, the, the decision makers were so poor at that point in the, early in the war.

• 56:19Speaker 02

  It started to really affect me in the sense of like, I, I was still bought and sold, but I started to really think these guys might not know what the fuck they're doing when,

• 56:33Speaker 02

  it was like Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld and Brennan.

• 56:40Speaker 02

  When they debathified Iraq, so after we invaded, they, they did this thing called debathification, which was basically they fired the military and everybody that was involved in the Baath Party. And we're, we're, once again, we're in the team room. And we're watching CNN and it's Rumsfeld talking about, we're, we're, we're debathifying Iraq. We're, we're, we're firing everybody. And I'm not exaggerating, everybody in the, everybody in the team room was like, what the fuck? Like, you guys, like, you guys are, you guys are gonna create the insurgency. Like, it was on the ground, that moment, that second, like, I wanted to throw, like, I, I wanted to throw a fucking brick through the TV.

• 57:23Speaker 02

  Like, I, I was like, these guys are paint by numbers creating an insurgency. They have no fucking clue what they're doing. And that was like, that moment, which is fairly early, where...

• 57:36Speaker 02

  I lost a lot of confidence in the decision makers. But, okay, you know, the question is, why'd you keep going back? Well, because you want to try to search for meaning and you're trying to find the actual purpose. Like, what is the purpose? Like, are there WMDs here? Like, are there, you know, like legit, um, direct traces back to 9/11? Are there things that we're doing that are going to directly affect and protect America? And you're kind of searching for it.

• 58:20Speaker 02

  And, not kind of, you are. Like, that's what you're doing. Or at least, that's what I was doing. And by the time, by the time I left in 2009, um, I just figured I was gonna die. Like, I was like, fuck this place. Like, fuck, like, like, um, I lived Iraq, right? And then I was like, well, I think time and repetition in thinking that you're dead for that long, and then searching for not only some, some, what I would say is good in the war itself, because there is good.

• 59:04Speaker 02

  You have your buddies. You have the camaraderie. You have the adrenaline. But you also think you're gonna fucking die every day for years on end, and that's not, fundamentally, it turns out, it's probably not good for you psychologically, I guess. And so I went to Afghanistan, thinking, well, and I went to train Afghans for a force up there. And when I went to train those guys, it was, hey, if I can train Afghans to take on the war, uh, maybe I can protect 18-year-old kids from getting their fucking legs blown off.

• 59:43Speaker 02

  You know, maybe I can protect the, you know, the 20-year-old kid from Nebraska from getting a fucking RPG stuff through their face. And I was older and I was also willing to die, so. The kids, when I say the kids, you know, 18, 20 years old, like, man, it's not. You know, it's not fun to watch those, when I say that, that's an understatement. It's so heartbreaking to watch. A kid that's never been to fucking combat, like, die. It, it changes everything in your life.

• 1:00:26Speaker 02

  And so you go from, you know, Iraq. To Afghanistan. You know, and I'm watching all this stuff unfold and there's like, there's, and I don't want to say it's all negative because there's, there's, you know, there were things that were very positive, but. Uh, I'm so jaded by the time I get there. That I'm like, well, if I can save some Americans, I'll save some Americans and. You know, if not, at least this will be an interesting experience. And then, you know, and there's a laundry list of other things that we can talk about. I don't want to get so fucking down, I guess.

• 1:01:07Joe Rogan?

  It seems like it's impossible not to once you're going back on it. And there's, how could you not? And the overwhelming negative experiences, the overwhelming horrific experiences.

• 1:01:20Speaker 02

  Well. I think that's where. I have this massive distrust in politicians.

• 1:01:30Speaker 02

  And I think that's part of the reason they have, they have squandered the courage. Of the American servicemen in these, these forever wars. That we've entered in under lies. So like, you know, Wolfowitz and W and Rumsfeld and.

• 1:01:52Joe Rogan?

  Oh, hell.

• 1:01:53Speaker 02

  Yeah. And. Sorry, man, I don't, I don't have any respect for those guys. Like, I don't, not only do I not have any respect for those guys, I have a, I have a profound amount of hatred for their arrogance. Cause I'm in my twenties, I'm, I'm a, I'm not making excuses, but you know, there's plenty of guys like me. That were not only hook, line and sinker, and I still would, I'd still sign up for this country. I think service is a remarkable.

• 1:02:17Speaker 02

  Courage, it's courage and service back to our community is something we have to cherish, like we do. But when you have an orchestra of idiots that are manipulating the courageous men and women of our country to go into these wars based on a neocon pipe dream. And there's

• 1:02:42Joe Rogan?

  This episode is brought to you by Chime. And I know people don't usually get excited about banking, but Chime is doing something different and it's worth paying attention to. In a recent survey, they ranked the number one choice for new checking accounts in America. That means real people, millions of them, are choosing this over traditional banks. That's because banking at Chime is fee free. No monthly fees, no overdraft fees, and thousands of fee free ATMs. But here's the real kicker. If you get their Chime card, it gives you 5% cash back on a category you actually pick yourself. Your savings rate, crazy high. It's nine times the national average. They're calling it the most rewarding way to bank. Go to chime.com/rogan.

• 1:03:26Joe Rogan?

  Takes a few minutes to sign up. Chime is a fintech, not a bank. Banking services and Chime card provided by Chime's bank partners. Terms and limits apply. Go to chime.com/disclosures for more details.

• 1:03:41Speaker 02

  No consequences. You know, you can pull out of Afghanistan like billions of dollars of, of equipment. Who the fuck got fired? But if I made a mistake, if me and my buddies made a mistake, we, we fucking, we lost our lives. We'd go to jail. Like, we lost our clearances. And I'm not trying to sound like a whiny bitch, I'm just saying like, no consequences for these guys.

• 1:04:05Joe Rogan?

  Nothing.

• 1:04:06Speaker 02

  Nothing.

• 1:04:07Joe Rogan?

  Nothing.

• 1:04:08Speaker 02

  You know, they get to go paint paintings and they think it's okay.

• 1:04:09Joe Rogan?

  Imagine no consequences for lying about weapons of mass destruction. And has there ever been a large scale investigation as to what led them to either believe or to push the narrative that there was weapons of mass destruction?

• 1:04:23Speaker 02

  Well, I think if you, you read, I mean, I, I mean, there's, there's a lot, I think there's a lot of like, um, There's a lot of books out there, obviously, and whether or not you have to kind of sort through the actual documents and figure out like where these guys were at. And I've spent a little bit of my life trying to understand from their perspective. And I honestly think a big part of it is, the guys who are making the decisions, they're hubris, their utopian belief that they were going to be able to rebuild Iraq like Houston, you know, like, "Oh, it's an oil country," you know, and, you know, they really believed that if they

• 1:05:02Speaker 02

  didn't rein in this rogue nation of Iraq, that Iraq was going to eventually contribute to terrorism. And you had guys that were so consumed with their intelligence, when it flipped to not only hubris, but they didn't have wisdom, they had intelligence. Wolfowitz is a smart guy. He's not an idiot. The problem is, he's not wise. These guys weren't wise men. There's a difference between having a high IQ and having the experience and repetition, seeing death and destruction, seeing people's lives fucking torn apart, and then understanding

• 1:05:46Speaker 02

  something from reading a book, or thinking about it from an economics perspective. And, you know, I think Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, Cheney, they had this belief that they could do anything they wanted to validate this. And they did. They had to data mine information and pull and pluck from different analysts that agreed with them. But the most of the intel community didn't agree with them. They're like, "We had defeated the Iraqi army," to the point, when I say defeated it, Like if we go back to the 90s, we say Desert Storm was 91, and then from that point forward,

• 1:06:27Speaker 02

  you can basically say, you know, HW to Clinton administration, Clinton administration with the economic sanctions, and with the integrated bombing campaigns that they had led throughout the 90s, we had essentially stuffed that guy back into a hole where the only thing he could do was sell oil on the black market, and he had a really, he had a fascist state where he and his family had, you know, complete control out of the country, but he wasn't going to be a threat from an international terrorism perspective. That's just false. It's not only false, but it is patently false. And they had to mine the data to validate

• 1:07:09Speaker 02

  it. They had to lie. They had to sift through and find and pick and pull the pieces of information. And they really thought this was going to be a fucking cakewalk. They did.

• 1:07:22Joe Rogan?

  Because of Desert Storm, you think?

• 1:07:23Speaker 02

  They thought because of Desert Storm, and what they, and they were listening to these assets like Talabi and some of these Iraq, former Iraqi exiles, and they were listening to these guys, by the way, were also manipulated by the Iranians and paid for by Iranian intel guys. They were Iranian assets. They were listening to these people, and they were living in their own echo chambers, validating this, this idea that it was better for regime change, for the international, not only the international economy, but it was going to be a stable petroleum-based country where we could integrate democracy.

• 1:08:04Speaker 02

  And none of these guys were Arabists. None of these guys actually understood the Middle East, not one. They didn't have any combat experience. They didn't really have any combat experience from the long-term, low-intensity conflict guerrilla warfare perspective. They were given not only the information, but they were given, most of the information they were given was, was saying, "This is going to be much more complex than you think it's going to be." And they denied

• 1:08:38Speaker 02

  Not only the opinions, but the information, and they went ahead with their fucking plans anyway. Rumsfeld chopped, single-handedly dictated how many people were gonna participate in the war. Like, he was dictating how many divisions it was gonna take, and he's like, "Actually, I think you could do it for half that." Like, he was like trying to negotiate how many guys that Tommy Franks was gonna use to invade Iraq. And Tommy Franks didn't have the balls to say, "Actually, I need two more divisions." So, a lot of this is just like fundamentally, these are professional politicians and bureaucrats drinking their own piss. Like I was saying earlier, you know, like you can drink your own piss once or twice before your kidneys start to shut down and it'll fucking kill you, right?

• 1:09:21Speaker 02

  These guys are all sitting around in their echo chambers, talking to the same types of people, defining how they were going to send servicemen and women to Iraq, and they were wrong. Not only were they wrong, but they were told otherwise by lots of different people to include, I mean, Tony Blair had a lot of different issues with this. Colin Powell essentially sold this and got the dominoes to fall on the entire thing. Because he, they knew that Colin Powell was so respected that if he sat in front of the UN with Tenet, who was the director of the CIA, right behind him, and held up this little thing of, you know, VX or whatever it was,

• 1:10:05Speaker 02

  that they could push it across the line from the international community. I mean, these guys were crooked, man. And not only were they crooked, they were so fundamentally wrong. And there's no consequences.

• 1:10:19Joe Rogan?

  Nothing.

• 1:10:20Speaker 02

  Zero consequences.

• 1:10:21Joe Rogan?

  They put Martha Stewart in jail.

• 1:10:23Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, they'd go after Trump for fucking two years on, you know, Russia collusion. It's like, you spent $7 trillion in thousands of American lives, hundreds of thousands of lives in Afghanistan and Iraq. And you're saying you're gonna put this guy through the wringer for two years because there might be some dossier that was paid for by the Clintons? Like, who's the criminal? And so, for me, I get all wound up when it comes to this, because rep after rep, year after year... My, my two closest friends in the world were, were literally, uh, one torn in half by a, a EFP, which was a direct, a, a Iranian manufactured shaped charge.

• 1:11:10Speaker 02

  You know, my other friend was turned into fucking moon dust. And, I mean, these are my two closest friends in the world. Guys I grew up with, in, in, in the army that I spent every fucking day with. And, uh, I've, I've, since then, I've had obviously more friends, but I mean, those are the two closest friends in the earliest part of the war. So I'm so directly affected by this because it fundamentally changed who I was forever.

• 1:11:42Speaker 02

  It, it gave me a profound amount of mistrust in, in my government. You know, in the decision makers, I don't believe, I actually don't believe what they're telling me anymore. I have, I have a lot of skepticism when it comes to the people that are pulling the, the, the handles in government. And I have to go to my peer set and what I told people is, man, my, my, my currency is courage. Right? It's like, that's what I broker in. So my friends that have gone through the GWAT, which I'm extremely happy for all these GWAT guys that are in like getting appointed to these positions. You know, you've got Pete, you've got Tulsi, uh, JD.

• 1:12:26Speaker 02

  Like they fundamentally know that what war is. And when you have decision makers that have never been to war and their kids will never go to war.

• 1:12:37Speaker 02

  And Chaney's kids never went to war. W's kids never went to war.

• 1:12:40Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:12:41Speaker 02

  Rums, like, and none of these guys, by the way, they're all Vietnam era guys. None of them went to fucking Vietnam. So it's really easy.

• 1:12:48Joe Rogan?

  Trump didn't either, right? You got a bunch of deferments.

• 1:12:50Speaker 02

  But I think the difference is, is that when somebody is saying, "Stop the endless wars."

• 1:12:57Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:12:59Speaker 02

  I am more than happy to go chips in on that narrative than I am to go, oh, we need to invest and put more time, money, energy into creating more chaos and destruction in the American service members' lives or the lives of other people.

• 1:13:16Joe Rogan?

  Did you ever see that speech with Mike Pence and Tucker Carlson?

• 1:13:20Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:13:21Joe Rogan?

  Tucker Carlson essentially ended Mike Pence's political career.

• 1:13:25Speaker 02

  Really?

• 1:13:26Joe Rogan?

  In one speech, yeah. Because this was when Pence was running for president and Tucker was sitting there with him and Pence was talking about getting helicopters and tanks and weapons to Ukraine. And he was explaining how they're being incompetent because they weren't providing them with what they needed. And Tucker went on this rant, see if you can find it. It's probably, I bet you could find it under that, here it is, listen to this.

• 1:13:57Speaker 03

  This is the whole thing, you should make sure the Tucker part, because it's four minutes long.

• 1:14:02Joe Rogan?

  Let me hear what he says, just start right where your cursor is, click where your cursor is.

• 1:14:06Speaker 04

  We'll let somebody transfer some jets.

• 1:14:11Speaker 05

  I'm sorry, Mr. Vice President, I know you're running for president. You are distressed that the Ukrainians don't have enough American tanks. Every city in the United States has become much worse over the past three years. Drive around, there's not one city that's gotten better in the United States. And it's visible, our economy has degraded, the suicide rate has jumped, public filth and disorder and crime have exponentially increased. And yet, your concern is that the Ukrainians, a country most people can't find on a map, who've received tens of billions of US tax dollars, don't have enough tanks. I think it's a fair question to ask, like, where's the concern for the United States in that?

• 1:14:55Speaker 04

  Well, it's not my concern. Tucker, I've heard that routine from you before, but that's not my concern. I'm running for President of the United States because I think this country's in a lot of trouble. I think Joe Biden has weakened America at home and abroad. And as President of the United States, we're going to restore law and order in our cities. We're going to secure our border. We're going to get this economy moving again. And we're going to make sure that we have men and women on our courts at every level that will stand for the right to life and defend all the God-given liberties enshrined in our Constitution. Anybody that says that we can't be the leader of the free world and solve our problems at home has a pretty small view of the greatest nation on earth. We can do both.

• 1:15:39Speaker 04

  And as President of the United States, we will secure our border. We will support our military. We will revive our economy and stand by our values. And we will also lead the world for freedom under my administration. I promise you.

• 1:15:54Speaker 05

  Amen. Vice President Mike Pence, thank you very much.

• 1:15:56Joe Rogan?

  Just that. That's not my concern. That's not my concern. What the fuck are you talking about? Why, how would you ever answer anything that way? That is not my concern. That's not your concern? You don't, you don't think he just made a really good point? That we're, we're really confused as to, first of all, aren't we like a trillion dollars in debt? How do we have?

• 1:16:16Speaker 02

  No, we're 35 and a half trillion dollars in debt. Like, it's crazy.

• 1:16:20Joe Rogan?

  Crazy. How do we have the money? How do we have the money to send to Iraq? And we don't have the money to fix our cities? How, how, and how can you say that's not my concern? That, what that is, is the opposite of what Trump is. That is nonsense talk. Not that he doesn't have nonsense talk, but that is not a person's real feelings. That is just political speech. That's just, we're going to clean up our country? We're going to preserve the right to life?

• 1:16:48Speaker 02

  It's memorizing soundbites.

• 1:16:50Joe Rogan?

  Exactly, exactly.

• 1:16:51Speaker 02

  And that's the entire problem with Washington right there.

• 1:16:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:16:55Speaker 02

  They memorize soundbites. They say one thing, they do the other thing.

• 1:16:58Joe Rogan?

  Exactly, exactly.

• 1:16:59Speaker 02

  Completely.

• 1:17:02Speaker 02

  They've lost the trust of their constituents. They've lost the trust of the American public. And by the way, it's administration after administration. It's politician after politician.

• 1:17:12Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:13Speaker 02

  There's, it's not, it shouldn't be a surprise if people don't like politicians. I mean, look at that guy.

• 1:17:17Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:17Speaker 02

  He's a fucking robot.

• 1:17:19Joe Rogan?

  He's weird.

• 1:17:19Speaker 02

  He's a weird dude.

• 1:17:20Joe Rogan?

  He's weird. You know, they kept trying to say JD's weird. JD's not weird at all. I met that guy. He's fucking cool. He's normal. Smart as shit. I could, I could hang with that guy. He could be my friend.

• 1:17:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:17:30Joe Rogan?

  Like, he's not even a little weird.

• 1:17:32Speaker 02

  No, that guy's weird.

• 1:17:33Joe Rogan?

  I mean, I guess anybody who's that smart is weird. You know, people that go to Yale, people that, like, he's weird in that way. Like, that's an odd dude. You don't see a lot of those. But, normal. That guy's bizarre. Like, his face doesn't move. Did you get Botox at 80? Like, what the fuck is going on? Like, you're weird.

• 1:17:51Speaker 02

  I think they have low IQs and they're pushing that thing to the red. That's why they're actually so afraid to do anything. Cause they're like, I have, they're like, I'm really pushing this thing. I've got like a Hyundai, like a 105, but my parents were rich. So I went to Yale, and if I break outside of my box, actually, people are gonna know that I'm a fucking retard, so.

• 1:18:10Joe Rogan?

  Right. Well, I do also think that if you're that ambition, you have ambition at that level, uh, and you're so driven to become the alpha that you want to be the president, the amount of work that's involved in that doesn't leave a whole lot of room for reading. Doesn't leave a whole lot of room for watching documentaries and having important in-depth conversations with people, expanding your understanding of the world. It's very narrow. They're basically actors. A lot, most of these people exhibit a lot of the traits that I see in actors.

• 1:18:45Joe Rogan?

  This, uh, desire to morph oneself to please the people around you, the saying the things that you think people want to hear because you want to get ahead. It's, it's all, like, very similar. They're actors. And the fact that these actors can rise to a position where they can actually dictate what these military veterans do and don't do, when they have no knowledge or experience in this.

• 1:19:10Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:19:10Joe Rogan?

  That's, the fact that that's a real thing is fucking crazy. It's really crazy.

• 1:19:16Speaker 02

  I, I mean, I think that's, by the time I left, I was so jaded, and the motivating factor was, oh, sorry.

• 1:19:26Speaker 02

  I was like, no man will ever have control over my destiny again. Like, I will not, I will not put a bit in my mouth

• 1:19:38Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:38Speaker 02

  for another man in the government. They will not be making decisions for me.

• 1:19:44Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I don't, I don't think we can recall a time in our history where we did trust the government. But this is, which is such a weird thing to say. You know, I used to think it was the Obama administration. But boy, Obama during this Kamala Harris administration, it changed my opinion of that guy.

• 1:20:03Speaker 02

  Really? Did you have a high opinion of him before?

• 1:20:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I did. Yeah, I did, just as an intelligent person, a statesman. I felt like he's probably like caught up in the system. It's very difficult to make real meaningful change. You know, you think you're gonna do something and then you get into office and you're like, oh god, what a fucking quagmire this place is. But watching him just straight up lie about Trump, the thing that got me was that very fine people thing, the white supremacist thing that just kept trying to say that he was a racist. Which is this thing that I think worked in like 2017.

• 1:20:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:20:37Joe Rogan?

  You know, I think it worked back then. I don't think it works anymore. I don't think people believe it anymore. I think that we've gotten numb to all this stuff.

• 1:20:45Speaker 02

  It's a sky is falling thing, right?

• 1:20:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:47Speaker 02

  It's like, cry wolf or whatever. It's like, you guys can only call, you only called me a fascist so many times. I mean, like, the New York Times wrote that article a couple of years ago, right? Where I'm like, it was the front of the coffee cup where it was like, do you want Trump 2024? Do you want low taxes? Do you want this? And I'm like, I want all that. It sounds good. And you can only call me a fascist, racist asshole. I mean, to be fair, like, I can float into the asshole category relatively easy, but

• 1:21:16Joe Rogan?

  Only when prompted.

• 1:21:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:17Joe Rogan?

  Only when prompted. Yeah, it's, you know what my fucking favorite things of this whole election cycle has been? Yesterday. When Biden and Trump sat down in the White House.

• 1:21:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:21:31Joe Rogan?

  Biden voted for Trump. I guarantee it. I fucking guarantee it. I never saw that dude so happy in his fucking life. He lost. His party lost. He was happy. When Obama had to shake hands with Trump and do the whole transition thing, Obama looked like, Jesus Christ.

• 1:21:55Joe Rogan?

  Look at his fucking smile dude.

• 1:21:58Speaker 02

  Trump's like, uh, whatever.

• 1:22:00Joe Rogan?

  Look at his fucking smile, man. That's like when your kid gets married.

• 1:22:06Speaker 02

  That dude looks like a hairless cat. Look at him.

• 1:22:08Joe Rogan?

  It's great. First of all, what have they done to him? What have they done to his face? Go back to the other picture because it was more high res.

• 1:22:16Joe Rogan?

  Look at his mug, man. First of all. For sure, he's got something going on with his forehead. They botoxed the shit out of his forehead. They gave him a facelift for sure. There was a bunch of different things they did, which very ill advised, by the way, folks. Look at Trump. He looks like shit. No one cares. Everyone loves him. You don't, you don't look better if you get your face pulled back like a lizard. You just more look more like a lizard. Everybody thinks you're a lizard already. But look at that smile. That motherfucker's never been happier in his life. In his life. He's like, that bitch. She went down. You can't tell me he wasn't happy. Like when he put that MAGA hat on, you ever see that?

• 1:22:54Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 1:22:55Joe Rogan?

  He put the MAGA hat on. And he took it with him on the plane.

• 1:23:00Joe Rogan?

  I'm guarantee you, I guarantee you, that motherfucker was happy. He had a giant smile on his face. He said, welcome back to him. I thought it was Hitler. I thought he was dangerous.

• 1:23:10Speaker 02

  That's what they all said, right? It's like, hey, this is the, he's a threat to democracy.

• 1:23:14Joe Rogan?

  I thought he was a Nazi.

• 1:23:16Speaker 02

  And then all of a sudden, it's like, oh, hey. We're gonna have a smooth transition here.

• 1:23:20Joe Rogan?

  This was the guy that you said was sharp as a tack. He was gonna be up until four months ago. Four months ago, that guy was gonna be running again. And now here he is, smiling like a Cheshire cat. How big was his smile? That's a crazy smile.

• 1:23:36Speaker 02

  Oh, man, he looks, he looks like he's wearing a mask.

• 1:23:40Joe Rogan?

  He might be. There was that one fake Biden. Did you ever see the fake Biden?

• 1:23:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:23:44Joe Rogan?

  The tall guy? That guy was so much taller. The guy was like 6'4". He's a giant Biden. It made no sense.

• 1:23:52Speaker 02

  They're gonna smoke that one by us. Like, it's like, dude, this guy's like, you know, 6'7", could be playing in the NBA.

• 1:23:58Joe Rogan?

  He was so much taller. They showed Jill and him together. Jill's like, what happened? That's a different human being.

• 1:24:06Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 1:24:07Joe Rogan?

  It's so nuts, man. It's so nuts. All the different things that happened during this election are wilder than anything you've ever seen in a fucking movie.

• 1:24:14Speaker 02

  It brought, I think it brought so many more people into politics, too. And people, like, the more people pay attention to what's going on with politicians, with the country, I don't think that's a bad thing. Because I think bureaucrats and politicians alike, they directly benefit from people not paying attention.

• 1:24:33Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:24:34Speaker 02

  And so, they only want you to pay attention once a year when they're gonna try to get everybody galvanized around a couple little stupid things and then get them out to the voting booth, but not too many. Like, we don't want a lot of complex thought out of the voters. We don't really want them to think about too much.

• 1:24:48Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:24:48Speaker 02

  Because, you know, we still got, uh, we still got a national deficit that we gotta increase, and I gotta line the, line the pockets of all my buddies.

• 1:24:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:56Speaker 02

  You know, Raytheon, Northrop Grumman, and Lockheed Martin. Like, we don't want them to get in too far.

• 1:25:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:02Speaker 02

  Like, don't, don't start talking about the reserve, or don't start talking about any of that other stuff.

• 1:25:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:25:07Speaker 02

  Like, I think that's what it is.

• 1:25:08Joe Rogan?

  Well, I think that's also why politicians are, some of them at least, are terrified of podcasts.

• 1:25:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:25:15Joe Rogan?

  Because you do have to talk about that. But that's what makes guys like JD and guys like Trump unique, in that they will just sit and talk with anybody. I mean, he sat with Theo Von, and Theo talked to him about doing coke.

• 1:25:27Speaker 02

  That's awesome. It was so funny.

• 1:25:29Joe Rogan?

  Theo's amazing. It was amazing. Theo's an ability to be himself no matter who he's talking to. And him talking to Trump about how he used to love to do coke.

• 1:25:39Speaker 02

  It was like, and Trump's just sitting there, which was super funny, by the way.

• 1:25:43Joe Rogan?

  Sitting there like this poor guy. Like, you see Theo falling apart in front of you, like, Jesus Christ, I thought I was running for president here. I think I might have to help this young fella.

• 1:25:52Speaker 02

  Who do I need to talk to about this?

• 1:25:54Joe Rogan?

  But, like, you know, Kamala didn't have the ability to do that. Or if she did, nobody brought it out of her. I was hoping- I could, I really was. I was hoping I could have a conversation with her. There's all this talk now that the reason why she didn't do it is because of um progressive people in her party, the pushback.

• 1:26:09Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:26:10Joe Rogan?

  Which might have some truth to it, but for the record, they offered me two very specific days. And um in different places in the country to travel and then go do it and do it for an hour. I said I didn't want to do that. And especially after Trump had done it. Here in three hours, I'm like, this is the only way to do it. And Elon said it best. He said, he goes, you could kind of bullshit someone for an hour because hour two and hour three. Like that's, that's when the real you comes out.

• 1:26:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, you're, you're gonna get.

• 1:26:39Joe Rogan?

  It's the real you.

• 1:26:39Speaker 02

  You're gonna, you're gonna tear the layers off the onion, right?

• 1:26:42Joe Rogan?

  Hundred percent. Hundred percent.

• 1:26:44Speaker 02

  It might make you cry.

• 1:26:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:46Speaker 02

  And it, the more you peel it, the more you might be like, oh, this person's fucking stupid as shit.

• 1:26:51Joe Rogan?

  How much are you bullshitting the world, right? And the, the, the quote about Trump or the narrative about Trump has always been that he's bullshitting everybody, that he's a con man. He's definitely very persuasive. You know, Scott Adams has wrote about this pretty much in depth about how, how well uh Trump practices the art of persuasion.

• 1:27:08Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:27:08Joe Rogan?

  You know, the art of the deal. He's great at making people his friend and making relationships. And if you're his enemy, fuck you, scorched earth. You know, it's like this, and there's fear of that. You don't want to get on his bad side. There's all this like, there's this art of like how he negotiates. And it's gone through this years and years and years of business. But, but that's him. That's the, the guy's right there. You could talk to him about everything and anything. He's right there. He's not protecting any of his ideas. He called a girl he's allegedly slept with horse face when he was the president on Twitter.

• 1:27:41Speaker 02

  That's so funny.

• 1:27:42Joe Rogan?

  It's the wildest shit. So you're getting what you get. That's who the guy is. And you love, I like him. I, I've go, I've grown to like him. I, I had a much more negative opinion of him back in the day because it was.

• 1:27:56Joe Rogan?

  There's only so much you can pay attention to and do deep dives on before you lose your fucking mind. And with him, I was always like, oh, that guy, they're grabbing by the pussy guy, like, it's probably not good for the country. That seems crazy. But as time went on, I was like, oh, you need a guy that is completely crazy to expose how corrupt the whole system is. And how they all collude together and how they all, they all say this, there's all these montages of clips of news organizations saying the same narrative outright, over and over, verbatim, word by word. They're getting fed this by someone, some entity, some, they're somehow or another, they're collaborating. And they're all choosing this very specific narrative and they're running with it and they're trying to destroy people with it.

• 1:28:41Joe Rogan?

  And I saw them do it with me. Yeah. I saw them do it with me during the COVID thing. And it was all motivated by the pharmaceutical drug companies and the profits. And they were terrified that someone's gonna come along and somehow or another put a notch in this little thing that they've created. Which is a devious little thing that they've done, where they eliminated all sorts of other remedies. They, they cut out all these generic drugs that possibly could have been used to help people. They denied people the use of monoclonal antibodies. They pushed the fucking shit out of this one thing so they could make money off of it. And they did it in collusion with the media. No one acted like a journalist. No one looked at the excess deaths. No one looked at the instances of myocarditis in young people. No one looked at any of that. There was no journalism.

• 1:29:24Joe Rogan?

  It just showed everyone that the whole system is bought and paid for. It's all corrupt. And the only way you could find out who a person really is, is to listen to them talk for long periods of time. It's the only thing, it's the only truth serum we have left. Right. And even that's not 100% effective. Mm-hmm. But it's pretty good. It's pretty fu- your brain knows bullshit. You know, you ever like met some guy and like he's dating this girl that you know and there's just something about the guy. It's like, what, he's shaking my hand, he's being nice to me. And I'm like, I don't trust this motherfucker. Like, something's gross about this guy. And then you find out he's a piece of shit. But it's always this- Thing like you feel some if you talk to someone long enough.

• 1:30:09Joe Rogan?

  There's patterns in the way they talk, the way they think. The way they consider things. Whether or not they can admit that they're wrong. Or whether or not they could tell you why they changed their mind, whether or not, how did they form their narratives like what? What bad paths were they on and what personal correction did they make and how long did it take before you got to a better place? You learn about people when you hear them talk for long periods of time, you can't fake personal growth. You can't fake like stuff you've learned, you can't fake flaws that you're willing to expose to people so that they they could perhaps see them in themselves. You can't fake that.

• 1:30:45Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:30:45Joe Rogan?

  And all those people like Mike Pence, he's got zero of that, you can't sit that down, that guy down and have a conversation, a real conversation with him.

• 1:30:54Speaker 02

  He's so afraid. Uh, I honestly, I don't think he even knows who he is.

• 1:30:59Joe Rogan?

  Probably doesn't.

• 1:31:00Speaker 02

  Guys like that don't even know who they are.

• 1:31:01Joe Rogan?

  Like an actor.

• 1:31:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, they're they're like actors like. My buddy Dave, um. We were talking yesterday, you met him the other night. And I've known him for 20 years.

• 1:31:10Joe Rogan?

  Great guy.

• 1:31:11Speaker 02

  Like.

• 1:31:11Joe Rogan?

  He was a lot of fun.

• 1:31:12Speaker 02

  Dude. You know, we met in Kabul back in the day. And Dave, Dave and I like we go way back and we.

• 1:31:19Joe Rogan?

  He's good friends with Bruce and with my friend Kevin.

• 1:31:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:31:21Joe Rogan?

  Crazy.

• 1:31:22Speaker 02

  Like, cause he was a team guy, right? So he's like former CL CIA guy. And Dave and I were talking about this. And. When you, when you can just be authentically engaged with people.

• 1:31:35Speaker 02

  Where you can just be yourself. And and that's part of the issue with, I think, a lot of vets is and why they like. Why they can act really well with vets. Is because. You can just authentically engage with people and say, I, this person knows I'm a little bit broken. This person knows that I've probably done shit that I'm not super proud of. And they know that I've got a dark sense of humor. But I can like just kind of open. I I can open my heart and just have a real conversation with somebody. And that's the shit you chase.

• 1:32:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:07Speaker 02

  Where. You can just be yourself and you can talk about stuff and you can like. Try to evolve the way you're thinking and feeling.

• 1:32:14Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:32:16Speaker 02

  In these artificial bullshit conversations that we have throughout our day with people we don't give a shit about are these like, you know, inauthentic, unreal, you know, veneer people. It's like, yeah, I have no interest in having a conversation with a fake person. They're stupid.

• 1:32:30Joe Rogan?

  The best thing that I took out of moving to Texas from moving to LA. I have way less of those conversations. I have almost none of them here. All my conversations here are like with normal people.

• 1:32:41Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:32:42Joe Rogan?

  They're normal. So many people are infected by the rhythm of Hollywood, which is just about people trying to become successful. And the way you become successful in Hollywood is you get chosen because you have to go on auditions.

• 1:32:54Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:32:54Joe Rogan?

  That's the, that's the primary, right? The number one, top of the food chain. Well, I guess rock star. Rock star and movie star are number one and number two. Maybe interchangeable. Maybe they're the same, same. If it's a 10, like biggest stars in the world, it's 10, movie stars and rock stars. And movie stars, everything you do is about your relationships with people and whether or not people think you align with them politically. And whether or not you support the right causes, you wear the bow tie at the Oscars, you act proper. You do all the things that you're supposed to do. And if you do all the things you're supposed to do, then you get into the club. You know, and if you don't do all the things you're gonna do, then they're not gonna use you. They're gonna use Daniel Craig.

• 1:33:36Joe Rogan?

  They're gonna use this guy. They're gonna use that guy. They're gonna use Dave Bautista. They're gonna use The Rock. They're gonna use. There's so many guys that want these roles and there's only so many good roles.

• 1:33:46Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:33:47Joe Rogan?

  Especially if you're gonna be a male movie star, you know, like, so no one can color outside the lines. And Dennis Quaid is like one of the rare few, like male movie stars, who just fucking completely gave up. He's like, I support Trump. I support, I'm a Christian. You know, I sing gospel music. Like, fuck you. I quit. And he did this Reagan movie. It was a Reagan movie, okay? It's about, it's about a 1980s president. They wouldn't let him advertise on certain social media networks because they said it was during the time of the election. And it could affect the election. What was it? Was it Facebook? Like, what, what, what kept him from, was it YouTube or Facebook?

• 1:34:29Joe Rogan?

  Some, one of the social media outlets kept him from advertising this movie, which is a great movie, about Reagan, where he plays Reagan, he does a fucking amazing job. It has nothing to do with today! It's about a guy who's dead!

• 1:34:43Speaker 02

  It's, he's dead. He's dead, he's been dead forever, right?

• 1:34:46Joe Rogan?

  He was dead his last year in office, he was fucking, full on all timers.

• 1:34:50Speaker 02

  I, that's the thing with this, this whole social media, you know, censorship, demonetization, like the way that they've, they've they honestly, and I want to say they, like, there's a big group and you, I mean, you were talking about it the other night, even with your show, with the Trump show, and then it's not trending, you can't even find it. The firearms community on YouTube deals with this all the time.

• 1:35:16Joe Rogan?

  Oh yeah, all the time.

• 1:35:18Speaker 02

  You know, the guys that have the huge YouTube channels from a firearms perspective,

• 1:35:22Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 1:35:23Speaker 02

  They, they're demonetized, they have to upload multiple times, they're in, like a constant battle.

• 1:35:28Joe Rogan?

  My good friend Collins, Colleen Noir?

• 1:35:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:35:29Joe Rogan?

  His fucking show, he can't get it to grow, he can't get his Instagram to grow, he's like completely stifled.

• 1:35:35Speaker 02

  And they're, they're keeping the lid on this, I mean, like, Brandon Herrera...

• 1:35:40Speaker 03

  After he was on the podcast, Facebook acknowledged the mistake and lifted the restrictions.

• 1:35:44Joe Rogan?

  Ah, yeah, you acknowledged it! Look at this, he expressed belief that Facebook labeled the content as an attempt to sway an election.

• 1:35:55Speaker 02

  Like, the, the entire...

• 1:35:57Joe Rogan?

  Thank you, Facebook.

• 1:35:58Speaker 03

  They said it was automated in their defense, but that's what they said.

• 1:36:01Speaker 02

  It was just a mistake, Jamie.

• 1:36:02Speaker 03

  I'm just, that's what they said.

• 1:36:03Speaker 02

  Jamie, it's just a mistake. Yeah, the entire firearms community, and it's weird, because we, when I say we, we talk about it all the time, like, whether it's, you know, the biggest YouTube channels on, for the firearm space, they're constantly battling, trying to keep their channels up, this is a constitutionally protected right.

• 1:36:23Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:36:24Speaker 02

  And because there's a difference in political opinion, they can, they can tip the scale.

• 1:36:32Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:36:33Speaker 02

  Which is completely insane to me, and there, and there's a lot of traffic, I mean, you think about some of these really big channels that are out there, these guys drive millions and millions of views. People obviously want to watch and they can't increase their reach or they get demonetized and they're constantly screwed with over and over and over again. And that's the way that we've, I think a lot of us have felt, we've been living under the thumb of, you know, our, our, our social media oligarchs that are deciding whether or not our information is agreeable to their political opinion.

• 1:37:10Joe Rogan?

  Did I ever tell you the time that I was having a conversation with a Facebook or YouTube executive and my wife had to grab my leg under the table and stop me?

• 1:37:18Speaker 02

  Seriously?

• 1:37:19Joe Rogan?

  In Hawaii, okay, so I'm with a friend and my friend was a, a executive at, at Google, a very nice person, great, no problems with them. We're all having a good time, we're sitting down drinking and talking and I got a couple in me and this lady who's a big wig at YouTube sits down across from me and we start talking. And I said, when it come, so we get into this conversation, it's a very friendly conversation, nothing problematic at all. I don't think she knows, even knows who I am. And this is a long time ago, so this is like 2015, 14? So my podcast is not that big.

• 1:37:58Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:37:59Joe Rogan?

  It's not that big at all. Let's, I can tell you exactly when it was. When did Sam Harris and Douglas Murray have a conversation? When did The Strange Death of Europe come out? Tell me about that. That's Douglas Murray's amazing book that has been proved now to be absolutely accurate in his assessment of what was going to happen to Europe with Muslim integration. Essentially, the guy nailed it and him and Sam Harris. Okay, so you have two public intellectuals who are having a conversation about cultures and about the... What is different about these Islamic cultures? And their desire to impose Sharia law, like at least in certain areas. So they're having this conversation.

• 1:38:44Joe Rogan?

  And it gets labeled, uh, as it gets flagged off this guy's account. So I find out about this video because this guy has an account and he, I don't remember where he posted it, maybe Twitter. But he said, "I got flagged on YouTube for having this in my playlist as something that I watch." Like not even something he hosts on his channel. So, uh, I asked the lady, I said, "Why would someone get flagged for a conversation?" She goes, "It was hate speech." "Just like that, just like that, it was hate speech." I go, "Can, do you remember the conversation?" "Because I watched the conversation, I don't think it was hate speech at all." She was def- it was definitely hate speech. Like, but it's between two public, and then my wife just clamps down on my neck.

• 1:39:27Joe Rogan?

  Cause she sees I'm fucking, I'm rabid. Now, like, it's two public intellectuals having a conversation about a real thing that's happening in the world. And there's, there's no hate speech in that, there's no slurs. There's no degrading of, uh, people, a generalization of people, there's no racism. This is, they're, they're talking about real cultural differences and how they're gonna affect Europe. And this fucking lady just, it's hate speech. The arrogance of the way she said it to me, and she was a big executive. And I was like, "Oh, boy." I was just boiling, I was boiling. And thank God my wife grabbed my leg. She fucking, "Ugh." She grabbed the shit out of my leg, cause I was ready to go. Cause the lady was gonna engage with me.

• 1:40:12Joe Rogan?

  And, and I was like, "Okay, this is a podcast, now you're fucked, you're fucked." "You're fucked, you're just lucky there's no cameras here." Which you're saying is absolutely crazy. Like, who are you to make that distinction? And do you have any idea how that affects us culturally? When a person like yourself who lives in this fucking... San Francisco, this whole bizarre tech cult bubble, that's what you live in.

• 1:40:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:40:37Joe Rogan?

  And you, you want to impose this crazy leftist perspective on everyone in the world to the point where you're not even allowing two world-renowned public intellectuals have a public discussion about this in front of an audience.

• 1:40:52Speaker 02

  Dude, I, I would deal with that all the time where people, I would talk about the Middle East. I spent most of my adult life in the Middle East. I, I was in Iraq, I was in Jerusalem, I was all around the Middle East and Africa. And I would just say, I just don't agree with the way that Saudi Arabia runs, right? I don't agree with the monarchy. I don't agree with Islamic Sharia law. I don't agree, oh, you're a fucking racist. And you're like, what? No, man. I just don't think that it's the best way to go about it, right? Like-

• 1:41:26Joe Rogan?

  There's a bunch of different ways people live.

• 1:41:28Speaker 02

  It, it's like, no, I'm not a racist. I've lived there. I've, I've been there. I've spent a ton of time there. I think this is better, and these are the reasons why. And people didn't even want to have a conversation with me. Oh, you're racist.

• 1:41:39Joe Rogan?

  But this is what's crazy. You have to be able to have those conversations, even if that person's lot, wrong. Like, if someone wants to get on YouTube and tell the world why Sharia law is better, I think they should be able to do that. I'd let them do it and let someone counter it and let them have debates. And Sam Harris has had a bunch of debates like that. There, there, you can watch them online. They're amazing. Let people figure out who they agree with. And if you just shut down discourse and say that it's hate speech, and you're defining hate speech as no slurs, there's no like, we gotta kill all these people. There's none of that. There's no hate in this conversation. You're saying hate speech is disagreeing with a narrative that all leftists must ascribe to regardless

• 1:42:23Joe Rogan?

  of any objective assessment of the facts. And you're just sitting down and looking at it and go, you know, I don't think I agree with this aspect of it. Like, I think that, like, telling women that they have to wear hijab everywhere, that's, you're not giving them the choice. You're not giving someone choices, just fundamentally bad for the race, for humans. It's oppression.

• 1:42:44Speaker 02

  Anything outside of a meritocracy in the context of being able to evolve a conversation based on the best idea wins. And when you're chopping out 50% of your population and saying their beast of burden and where they belong is just essentially for...

• 1:42:57Joe Rogan?

  Basket of deplorables.

• 1:42:59Speaker 02

  Yeah. Like, this is the problem that I have with this.

• 1:43:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:03Speaker 02

  And any time that I've had this conversation around the Middle East where, like, these are the things I don't like about it, and I mean, there's lots of different things. It could be the, you know, the, the, the Arab men will typically wear this very long, open bottom garb, right? It's typically referred to as a man dress. My god, I hate that thing. That thing's stupid. Like, I've had to wear it, you know, and I fucking hate it.

• 1:43:29Joe Rogan?

  Did you wear underwear? Did you wear underwear on it?

• 1:43:31Speaker 02

  Sometimes, you know.

• 1:43:32Joe Rogan?

  You could shit your pants.

• 1:43:33Speaker 02

  I've worn a hijab. Like, we were talking about it.

• 1:43:35Joe Rogan?

  Did you really?

• 1:43:36Speaker 02

  Yeah. Like, I had like a tiny little, like, belt-fed machine gun and I'd have to wear it, because I'm a small guy, right? I'm 160 pounds and so I would often be the woman, because I could, I could, I could be the fucking, I've got a feminine frame, man. Yeah, I've got, you know, birthing hips, of course, but, you know, I could get a little saw with, which is a squad automatic weapon, a little belt-fed machine gun, a couple frags underneath a hijab, and I could sit in the backseat.

• 1:44:04Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:44:05Speaker 02

  It's like, surprise, bitch, I'm not a woman.

• 1:44:12Joe Rogan?

  Picturing you with a hijab and a belt-fed machine gun under your dress is fucking hilarious.

• 1:44:17Speaker 02

  It's so, it's so much fun, man, like...

• 1:44:19Joe Rogan?

  Did you have like a thing where you could pop it up? Like a, like a Loki jacket?

• 1:44:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, so you'd Velcro, so we had, we had a whole department in the agency where they, they would like, design costumes and shit for you. So you could, I had like, I had this fake mustache, I got a picture of it, I'll fucking send it to you, but I had this fake mustache and like, they would put Tanner and fake mustache and, and like sunglasses, so I'd like drive around looking like Saddam half the time. Like...

• 1:44:47Joe Rogan?

  Like that fucking America World Police movie?

• 1:44:50Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Full on.

• 1:44:54Speaker 02

  And it's so funny because like you'd have like uh no shit a person putting makeup on you before you like go out to do something you got a fake mustache and you know or for me I'm like just give me the hijab I already know what I'm doing. Give me the fucking, put me in the lady thing.

• 1:45:11Joe Rogan?

  I would be the fat girl.

• 1:45:12Speaker 02

  Put me in the lady thing.

• 1:45:13Joe Rogan?

  Are we allowed to wear makeup at all? Are Islamic women allowed to wear makeup under their hijab or no?

• 1:45:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, they they can't depending on the on the on where they are.

• 1:45:22Joe Rogan?

  Some parts they don't let them do it?

• 1:45:23Speaker 02

  Some parts, yeah, depending on on how extreme they are, but if you went to Kuwait or something like that, they would flash it, you know, it's like a signify, it signify that they're they're they're like racy, you know?

• 1:45:36Joe Rogan?

  Sassy.

• 1:45:37Speaker 02

  Little, little hussy.

• 1:45:38Joe Rogan?

  These eyelashes.

• 1:45:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:45:41Joe Rogan?

  Oh my god, I saw her nostrils.

• 1:45:43Speaker 02

  I saw her ankles.

• 1:45:44Joe Rogan?

  This bitch is wild. Isn't it wild though that that religion, the absolute most suppressed religion, suppressive religion when it comes to women and gays are the ones that the progressives are so vehemently defending? Like that's the one they defend over all religions. You can be is like a leftist will accuse you readily and quickly of being Islamophobic. It's a great thing, it shut you down. You it's a great pejorative, but no one ever accuses you of being anti-Christian. No one, it never comes up. No one, no one, there's not even a word, right? You can have Islamophobic. Is there a Christianophobic? I've never heard it. What is what is a word, like a disparaging word for someone who is uh is

• 1:46:31Joe Rogan?

  prejudiced against Christians? Does it exist?

• 1:46:34Speaker 02

  I don't know. I mean.

• 1:46:35Joe Rogan?

  It probably doesn't even, it's like honky, you know, it's like a racist term for white people, cracker. It doesn't work.

• 1:46:40Speaker 02

  Like a Caucasian cis male. I don't even know what that means.

• 1:46:43Speaker 03

  It says Christianophobia or whatever.

• 1:46:45Speaker 02

  Christianophobia? See that's.

• 1:46:47Joe Rogan?

  I've never heard anyone utter that.

• 1:46:48Speaker 02

  That's too much garbly gook. You can't say it fast.

• 1:46:50Joe Rogan?

  No, no.

• 1:46:51Speaker 02

  Islamophobia is kind of fun.

• 1:46:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, Islamophobia flows. It sounds like you're intellectual.

• 1:46:55Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:46:56Joe Rogan?

  Well, this podcast is filled with Islamophobia, first of all. Let's just

• 1:46:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:47:00Joe Rogan?

  discuss this. This is really important. We need to direct them to feminism.

• 1:47:04Speaker 02

  But I think that's so funny because when I, when I listen to academics, you know, I'll pull up a YouTube and I'll go down a rabbit hole on a certain thing and I'll listen to an academic and then half of them. I shouldn't say half of them, like a good portion of them, they're talking about things they've never actually experienced.

• 1:47:25Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:47:26Speaker 02

  So for me, I've lived in the Middle East, like I've lived in Jerusalem.

• 1:47:33Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:47:34Speaker 02

  I've lived and interacted and been in these cultures and seen them in a very vivid way.

• 1:47:44Speaker 02

  And when I say this, like tactical and combat experience, specifically in these countries, it's very vivid. And part of the problem with, you know, this differentiation, let's go back to it, but this differentiation between the decision makers and the people actually implementing the tactical execution on the ground is that there's a huge disconnect from the reality. They don't have the wisdom to understand what it is. And what I used to tell people is like, I was almost like a zookeeper where I would usher, depending on the person, I would usher them through the fucking zoo so they could see what's going on, but they would see it from afar. And I kept the lions from eating them.

• 1:48:26Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:48:27Speaker 02

  And there's this very clear differentiation between the people in charge and most of them shouldn't have been in a combat zone, specifically in the agency. They should have not have been in a combat zone. And when you unpack the agency and you look at, you have paramilitary guys and they're more than qualified to be there, and then you have like the cocktail circuit guys. And they, they're just trying to get their combat tour so they can get promoted to another fucking spot, but they actually have no business being there. Meaning they need guys like me to keep them alive.

• 1:49:00Joe Rogan?

  Oh, so they're just like getting in days for

• 1:49:03Speaker 02

  That's all they're doing.

• 1:49:04Joe Rogan?

  The ledger.

• 1:49:05Speaker 02

  There is a very famous, infamous case officer from coast back in the day, and I was on the ground there, not in coast, in Kabul at the time. And she was being groomed to be the assistant director. There's a great book on it called Double Agent, but I was on the ground when it happened. And she had this

• 1:49:30Speaker 02

  Asset that she was trying to get in, which is an agency asset that she was trying to get into a basin coast. Once again, this person has no... They should not be here. They should be in Germany going to a cocktail party, like pretending like they're really cool because they have high intellect, but they have no context to you. Going down to the basis of reality, and these are like rules of the jungle. Like this, like this power is the only language they speak. Like you can't intellect your way out of this thing. Like a fucking bullet is a bullet. A bat is a bat. Like it will win over your articulation every time. If you want to win a debate,

• 1:50:15Speaker 02

  and you just put an ax handle through somebody's fucking head, that's how you win, right? That like, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. So like they bring in this asset and she's like, oh, you know, this asset is the guy, he's gonna give us the coordinates to bin Laden. We've been working with him for a long time. He's an amazing guy. It's his birthday. He wants us to bring him a cake.

• 1:50:39Speaker 02

  So she bypasses all the security systems, bringing in a guy from Pakistan.

• 1:50:46Speaker 02

  So she gets him, because he's like, I don't want to go through any security. I'm your trusted guy. I don't want to go through first, I don't want to go through any security.

• 1:50:55Speaker 02

  So she tells security, stand down. She doesn't tell anybody about it. She brings this guy in through the gate, like blows him through. Now the security guys, mind you, are like, what the fuck did you just do? They're running down to this situation to try to get ahead of it. He steps out and he looks like the Michelin tire man and fucking clacks off.

• 1:51:16Joe Rogan?

  Oh, God.

• 1:51:19Speaker 02

  And three of my friends were killed in that suicide bomb. She was killed ultimately. And but that's a perfect example, and I mean, there's like multiple different examples of there's a different cadence mindset and capability associated with what I would say is the paramilitary guys versus the case officers, the spies. They're just totally different guys. And

• 1:51:47Speaker 02

  They tried to intermingle because of capabilities and more importantly promotions to try to get people like promoted. Which is another reason why like some significant things have to change over there. And they got guys hurt.

• 1:52:03Joe Rogan?

  Send people to you just to you were supposed to protect these people.

• 1:52:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it so they could be collection officers on the ground. I mean, like time after time, example after example. I had this guy in this town called Lashkagar on the middle of fucking nowhere. And before we go there, so let's rewind to Iraq.

• 1:52:27Speaker 02

  I had a I had a I had a spy that we were working with and they're called case officers in the agency. And and we go out to pick her up from the airfield and we're like bringing her to where she needs to go. And we pick her up and she gets in the car behind she she gets in in the car behind me. And she takes out her pistol. She points it and I'm in the passenger seat. She's right behind me. She takes out her clock. She puts a magazine in it racks the slide right behind my head, like directly into the back of my head.

• 1:53:02Joe Rogan?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:53:03Speaker 02

  And I turn around and I'm like, and I'll tell you exactly what I said. I'm like, what the fuck are you doing? As I turn around, I'm like, give me that thing like, and I called her. I called her some like very rude, very rude things, right? So I'm like, what the fuck are you doing? Don't take your pistol out. I go if both of us are dead, then think about it. But I'm gonna keep this. You just don't have it anymore. So I gave her back. I actually gave her back the empty pistol. I was like, listen, if both of us are dead, feel free. Take one of their take one of our guns, take both of our guns. I don't give a shit because I'm dead. But I get back in and the chief of base at the time pulls me in. It's a fucking super good dude.

• 1:53:48Speaker 02

  And he like. Calls me, he's like, "Hey, man. Heard you had quite an exchange with somebody and, you know, we don't really appreciate, you know, this and, you know, I might be, I might have to send you home." And I was like, "Did she tell you what she did?" He was like, "No, I just thought she got in the car and you told her, like, you know, you fucking dumb, whatever, and give me your gun." I was like, "No, she racked her slide into the back of my head." And he's like, "Oh, God, get out of here, I'll talk to her." It's like, "Oh, God, get out of here, I'll talk to her."

• 1:54:24Joe Rogan?

  Oh, Jesus Christ.

• 1:54:26Speaker 02

  But it's, it's like...

• 1:54:28Joe Rogan?

  Do they even have to show competency in weapons use?

• 1:54:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, but it's, it's...

• 1:54:34Joe Rogan?

  Do they go through the same sort of program?

• 1:54:35Speaker 02

  Everybody thinks there's like this Jason Bourne type person, you know, like spies are Jason Bourne or something like that. It's like, it's just not fundamentally correct. Like, any soft guy, any soft guy is so more, much more proficient in firearms. I taught a selection and vetting course for former soft guys that wanted to come into the, the agency. And I taught it for a couple of years and I was one of the main architects behind the selection criteria. And, um, and we would have to go out and train spies. And I would shoot their qualification course with my left hand, like, on two hours of sleep,

• 1:55:19Speaker 02

  still half in the fucking back. Like, it's just so, like, ridiculously...

• 1:55:24Joe Rogan?

  Ingrained.

• 1:55:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, and more importantly, it's, that's not their job, right? They're, they're, they're collection people and I'm, I'm defending them to a certain degree because they're very high IQ, their selection criteria in their courses is very difficult.

• 1:55:37Joe Rogan?

  They're not prepared for that.

• 1:55:38Speaker 02

  No, they, they don't belong in those places. Like, when you go into the, when you go into a combat zone and when it's a very complex, because there's different, different areas in combat zones and some of them are more dangerous than others. You can't have some of those people there. It's too dangerous, man. You gotta have collection people that are on the military side that can handle themselves unilaterally. And you can't have like your regular hum drum spy. This isn't Jason Bourne. They're not competent. And more importantly, that's not their thing. It's the thing of proficient artisans in combat

• 1:56:22Speaker 02

  collection in the art of war. And that is a very subset niche profession of guys that are extremely competent and very dangerous.

• 1:56:32Joe Rogan?

  Why do we want to believe in a Jason Bourne?

• 1:56:34Speaker 02

  I think it's a-

• 1:56:36Joe Rogan?

  People love that narrative.

• 1:56:37Speaker 02

  They love it.

• 1:56:38Joe Rogan?

  They love that narrative. Some super spy, 007 dude that can fuck everybody up.

• 1:56:42Speaker 02

  It's fun, right?

• 1:56:44Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:44Speaker 02

  It's like, "Oh, we noticed you're a really good boxer in your local gym and you went to Yale. We're gonna recruit you." Like, get the fuck out of here. That's so stupid.

• 1:56:54Joe Rogan?

  He's a judo champion.

• 1:56:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's a judo champion. They'd always start the same way.

• 1:57:00Joe Rogan?

  Recruiting him into the CIA.

• 1:57:01Speaker 02

  "Oh, man, we noticed you were hitting the bags and you're a political science major in Yale."

• 1:57:07Joe Rogan?

  There's a guy with glasses and a hat on watching you run around the track. I think we found our man.

• 1:57:14Speaker 02

  If they only knew the bureaucratic steps that it took to like get into it where it's just like so much paperwork and interviews and it's like, "Who is this guy? What has he done?"

• 1:57:26Joe Rogan?

  Well, what's wild to me is the spies that infiltrate terrorist organizations. Like, there's people that are in the IDF that have infiltrated Hamas. They live with them. They're in there.

• 1:57:40Speaker 02

  Lots.

• 1:57:40Joe Rogan?

  They're in there.

• 1:57:41Speaker 02

  Lots.

• 1:57:41Joe Rogan?

  Isn't that crazy?

• 1:57:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's so respectable.

• 1:57:44Joe Rogan?

  Can you imagine that life?

• 1:57:45Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 1:57:46Joe Rogan?

  That life is nuts, man. Worried you're gonna be found out and these guys knowing, Hamas knowing that a certain percentage of these people have to be Israelis?

• 1:57:56Speaker 02

  Well.

• 1:57:56Joe Rogan?

  That is so crazy that they do that.

• 1:57:59Speaker 02

  When you have those guys, and we need those guys, like I'm not.

• 1:58:03Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:58:03Speaker 02

  Like, we need those guys.

• 1:58:04Joe Rogan?

  Must be so exciting.

• 1:58:05Speaker 02

  The non-official cover, the Knox.

• 1:58:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:08Speaker 02

  Like, that's, that, I, I, I mean, that, there's so much respect.

• 1:58:12Joe Rogan?

  Well, you were explaining that one guy, that's a professor?

• 1:58:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, yeah, so. I mean, out of all the guys, like, I, I had such a unique ride in history and times, right, where, you know, looking out the window, kind of just being a passenger in history, and then being able to talk to some of these guys. And I would sit down, and I would always find, like, the older guy that's in the, you know, the, we, we have, like, dining halls, or the agency has their own separate dining halls and bars and shit like that. And I sat down with the guy one day, and I was just like, hey, man, what's your story, you know? And he was telling me, he was a, he was an anthropology professor, the University of Washington.

• 1:58:55Speaker 02

  And he was, he was, he was finishing his PhD, and he was crossing the Mackenzie Traverse in Canada. And he did it in era-appropriate clothing, in a canoe, and the whole fucking thing. Right? It's, it's completely insane.

• 1:59:09Joe Rogan?

  Oh, my god.

• 1:59:10Speaker 02

  It's, like, so insane. And I was like, oh, how'd you get in, you know? And that's, so he's making his way across, he gets to a cabin, he's starving, he's gonna die. He, he's, he's explaining this to me, he's, he's like, I'm going to die, I break into this trapper cabin, I find a bunch of old, like, old canned food, I gorge, I, I just, like, engorge myself. And now I have the screaming shits. And

• 1:59:42Speaker 02

  I'm, like, wiping my ass with this National Geographic.

• 1:59:47Speaker 02

  And I pull out this ad and the agency used to have ads in National Geographic. And he thought to himself, wow, that's, that's really interesting. I should apply. So he applied. When he got back.

• 2:00:01Joe Rogan?

  Imagine this scenario. You're fucking starving, then you're eating botulism filled cans of beans with pork and shit. Wiping your ass with a National Geographic. You see an ad. I mean, it's a fucking scene in a movie.

• 2:00:13Speaker 02

  It's, it's insane.

• 2:00:14Joe Rogan?

  That's a scene in a movie.

• 2:00:15Speaker 02

  So.

• 2:00:15Joe Rogan?

  Right?

• 2:00:16Speaker 02

  It goes back to University of Washington, becomes a professor, the agency, he goes through the entire process. The agency recruits him. He goes through training, but still he, he has to keep his, his double life going. And.

• 2:00:29Joe Rogan?

  So he starts a life as a double life, in fact.

• 2:00:31Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 2:00:33Joe Rogan?

  Becomes a professor while he's in the agency.

• 2:00:35Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 2:00:36Joe Rogan?

  Wow. So from the jump, he's got a double life. It's not like he gets recruited. He's some Nobel Prize winner and they say, we need you to be for America.

• 2:00:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:00:45Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:00:46Speaker 02

  In his first job, I'll never forget him describing this to me because I didn't know, I didn't know any of this. Is, so it's part history, part just agency history. And he goes, my first job was I flew to Angola. And I just had a suitcase full of money and they dropped me off in the middle of nowhere and they're like, go kill Cubans. That was his job.

• 2:01:15Joe Rogan?

  Jesus Christ. Just a bag of money.

• 2:01:18Speaker 02

  That was it.

• 2:01:18Joe Rogan?

  One straight directive.

• 2:01:20Speaker 02

  Okay. And so in defense here, that's cool as shit.

• 2:01:25Joe Rogan?

  It's pretty wild.

• 2:01:26Speaker 02

  Yes, it's wild.

• 2:01:27Joe Rogan?

  They trust that guy.

• 2:01:28Speaker 02

  Here's a bag of money.

• 2:01:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:30Speaker 02

  Go kill some Cubans because you had, uh, you know, it's, it's a proxy war, right? Between, uh, South Africa and, um, that it was Soviets and the Cuban by proxy. They were both supporting each other. They were both supporting the communist revolution in Angola. So we are pushing back as from the state's perspective, we're pushing back against the, um, Soviet intervention, which was driven from the Cubans. So he had a huge, you, you, huge Cuban intervention, which is something most people don't realize. And I just thought it was fascinating because it was the first time I heard about it. And here's this guy that his job was, here's a bag of money, go kill Cubans.

• 2:02:15Speaker 02

  That's your job.

• 2:02:17Joe Rogan?

  While he's a professor.

• 2:02:18Speaker 02

  While he's a professor, so he'd be like going, so he'd go back to, you know, whatever university and go, "Okay, kids, um, I know I've been out on a dig, you know, and I've been building, you know, "Atlantis in Australia, trying to do this, but really we was in Angola, hunting Cubans."

• 2:02:37Joe Rogan?

  Holy shit.

• 2:02:39Speaker 02

  That's pretty badass. I'd say that's way better than Indiana Jones, as far as I'm concerned.

• 2:02:43Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah. Writing on a chalkboard and shit, thinking about gunning dudes down.

• 2:02:51Joe Rogan?

  Okay, and then plus the five.

• 2:02:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:02:54Joe Rogan?

  Who here can answer this?

• 2:02:58Speaker 02

  Nobody, nobody, nobody can know.

• 2:03:01Joe Rogan?

  That's so.

• 2:03:02Speaker 02

  He never tells anybody.

• 2:03:03Joe Rogan?

  Anybody.

• 2:03:04Speaker 02

  No, and he's still, I mean.

• 2:03:06Joe Rogan?

  So I guess with a guy like that, if you can find a guy who's willing to wear era, uh, uh, "era equivalent quote clothing," would you say an era correct?

• 2:03:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:03:15Joe Rogan?

  Clothing and make his way through a trek that was most likely gonna kill people in the 1800s? You know who did something like that? Didn't do the whole thing, but Rinella, "The way I met him was he, he had a first, he had a show before Meat Eater. "It was called The Wild Within, and I got really addicted to it."

• 2:03:34Speaker 02

  Seriously?

• 2:03:35Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I used to love, way before I ever went hunting, I still love watching hunting shows. I used to watch like Ted Nugent's Spirit of the Wild. My wife was always like, "What the fuck are you watching?" But I was always obsessed with hunting shows and wilderness shows, people in the wilderness. Cause every time I'm in the woods, I feel like I have a vitamin. I'm like, "Oh, I'm getting this vitamin." So I was like, I wanted to like, experience more of that in my life, so I was watching on TV. So there was a show called The Wild Within. And what Rinella did was, he like, I think he used like, error correct weapons too. I think he used like a musket and he shot a bison. And he turned the bison into like, uh, I think it was a bison.

• 2:04:15Joe Rogan?

  Whatever the animal was, he turned it into a boat. He made a boat out of it and drifted down this river. He did like all these things that these pioneers did. Back in the day when they were making their way across the country.

• 2:04:25Speaker 02

  That sounds awesome.

• 2:04:26Joe Rogan?

  It was pretty dope. That's how I got to meet him. That's how I got him on my podcast. Before Meat Eater was ever a show.

• 2:04:31Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:04:31Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. He was super dismissive of podcasts. Now he's got one.

• 2:04:36Speaker 02

  I feel like there's a lot.

• 2:04:37Joe Rogan?

  What am I doing here? I'm in this comedy club with this fucking dude who's smoking weed. Like, this is ridiculous.

• 2:04:42Speaker 02

  I feel like there's a lot of people that probably dismissed it. They're like, oh, what the fuck is Joe doing?

• 2:04:47Joe Rogan?

  But now he's got a great podcast of his own. I love that guy to death.

• 2:04:49Speaker 02

  Oh, he's awesome.

• 2:04:50Joe Rogan?

  He's, he's such a smart dude too. He knows so many things. He's a fascinating guy to talk to because he's super well read. And he, he can talk to you about all kinds of shit that you would not expect from a guy who's a professional hunter.

• 2:05:04Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:05:05Joe Rogan?

  You know, he, he talks like a PhD. It's very, but also like a hunter. Very unusual dude. And like, one of the very best guys to explain hunting. Like I saw a debate that he had. It was like a, I think it was a book that he had released. And he was doing one of those talks they do at bookstores and this guy was a vegan and the guy in the audience was a vegan. The guy got upset with him. And Rinella handled it so perfectly. They were just the way he communicated with the guy and explaining his perspective. And you have a different perspective and I'd love to have a conversation with you. Didn't do with any bullshit. Ted Nugent's like, ah, you pussy, grow another vagina. But Rinella's like the, the perfect answer to people that objectively, they look at it, they go, wait a minute, I do eat meat.

• 2:05:50Joe Rogan?

  Like, I am a hypocrite. I am hiring a supermarket hitman. Like, why am I upset at this man who not only hunts his meat, but cooks it and writes cookbooks?

• 2:06:00Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:06:00Joe Rogan?

  And cooks it on television?

• 2:06:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:06:02Joe Rogan?

  And like, this is the same thing. Like, what are we doing here? This is so stupid. You know, and then you've got the people that really believe that you shouldn't eat anything but plants. And my problem with that is I think plants are smart. I think they just move real slow and I think they have a way of interacting that is noticeable, measurable. I think there's probably a consciousness to plants. I think life eats life and I think that's the only way it survives. And I think that's just the way it goes. That is just the way it goes. And you can choose to just eat plants, but I don't think you're gonna be as healthy. I just, I think it's too hard. I think people can kinda survive on vegan diets and do well on vegan diets. There's athletes that are on vegan diets. I don't think they hit peak performance and thrive.

• 2:06:46Joe Rogan?

  I think that's all people who are consuming nutrient-dense meats. Meats and fish and eggs. Those are the people that, when you look at athletes, the predominant, the, the best athletes in every sport are all consuming protein. They're all consuming animal protein. There's so few that are vegans that, that hit elite status and maintain. A lot of them get injured when they switch to vegan too. There's just so much in there. Collagen and B12 and fucking, there's so many different aspects to different amino acids. You could have this ethical thing in your head and I get that ethical thing. Like, I don't wanna see a thing suffer. I think plants suffer, you just don't feel it. Right. I really do.

• 2:07:30Joe Rogan?

  I think there's a communication with them that's probably similar, but different to the way we feel about animals getting killed by other animals. I think it's just a part of this whole process. I mean, they've shown that you can take the recordings of beetles eating leaves and play recordings of beetles eating leaves near a tree. And the tree will experience distress to the point where it changes the profile, the, the flavor profile of the leaves. It releases chemicals, these phytochemicals into the leaves that makes it disgusting for the bugs. And they do it with giraffes, like when giraffes eat, I think it's acacia trees.

• 2:08:14Joe Rogan?

  When giraffes eat acacia trees, the trees downwind all become disgusting. To the point where the giraffes will starve, cuz they, they won't eat it. They, they change their flavor profile to protect themselves. They release some sort of chemical that makes them inedible.

• 2:08:31Speaker 02

  Well, I think that's so interesting, because you can see it with, um, who's that? Paul Stamets has, like, you know, when the fungi is like talking and communicating, and the health benefits to like fungi and different plants, like, I think anytime you have this edict where no meat, no plants, no, I think that's just another version of religious extremism, where if you were just to say, what makes sense, what's it, morally, what am I going to have to coalesce? And from me, I don't want to be a hypocrite, so I hunt, like, that's the way it is.

• 2:09:15Speaker 02

  And we eat a ton of wild meat, I'm not a hypocrite, we eat meat, I love fish, I love, I love fruits and vegetables. But I think if you're making this determination where there's no meat, this is the only thing I'm going to eat, well, one, you know, that's a lot of time and effort and energy that you're spending specifically on your diet constraints that could be allocated to

• 2:09:43Speaker 02

  being a better dad.

• 2:09:45Joe Rogan?

  Well, maybe they could do all those things too.

• 2:09:46Speaker 02

  Maybe, I don't know.

• 2:09:47Joe Rogan?

  I think their philosophical point is a good one. I think their, their ethics, the morals, their perspective is that I want to live a life of, with the least suffering possible. I think that's noble, I really do. I think the problem is life eats life, and I think that's the real problem. And I think the problem is if you're buying just vegetables in the store, boy, you need to take a good look at monocrop agriculture, because it's fucking bananas.

• 2:10:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:10:17Joe Rogan?

  You know, there was a Taylor Sheridan in Yellowstone, there was a scene where Kevin Costner was talking to the hippie lady, was trying to like shut down ranches and shit, I forget what her, her thing was. But, um, he was explaining how if you're on a vegan diet, you want to kill the most things, become a vegan. Because you don't understand, like, if one life is one life, okay? If the life of a gopher and the life of- An elk are the same thing and why wouldn't they be right? You have no idea how many things have to fucking die to make monocrop agriculture. It's it's a bloodbath. They kill everything. They kill groundhogs, ground squirrels. You fucking name it, ground nesting birds, fawns.

• 2:10:59Joe Rogan?

  Everything gets gobbled up by combines. It's an enormous industrial operation. It's not natural. So now you're limited to organic plants. Okay? So if you're growing all of your own food and you know, you're growing a lot of soybeans, a lot of different things like. If you go hemp, if you're in a place where you can grow it legally hemp is actually a really good source of proteins. It's actually got a really complete amino acid profile. You can, you know, you could survive. You could do it that way. But if you're a regular vegan, if it's a person like I get vegan pizza at the supermarket. Shut the fuck up. You you're contributing to this mass slaughter of small animals. You're just not aware of it.

• 2:11:38Speaker 02

  Have you have you watched that Netflix docu-series on it's basically vegan propaganda. I forget what it's.

• 2:11:46Joe Rogan?

  Is it the game changers? That's the one.

• 2:11:48Speaker 02

  Did you watch that?

• 2:11:49Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I know the guy did it. I had him on.

• 2:11:54Speaker 02

  I thought it was fascinating, like from a wide variety of reasons, but more importantly, so. I went and got some vegan cheese. And he's like, tried it. I was like, okay, it's not bad. But I mean, dude, it's it's a laundry list of ingredients associated with making this. Which is seems pretty insane to me versus what's the ingredient on a good cheese?

• 2:12:18Joe Rogan?

  Milk.

• 2:12:21Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:12:23Speaker 02

  This thing's like a like a dissertation of ingredients.

• 2:12:26Joe Rogan?

  And it's so processed. That is literally what it is. If you want to be, I said that a million times. You want to be a vegetarian, eat Indian food. They make delicious, delicious vegetarian food. You don't have to eat fucking vegan cheese. Stop pretending, stop lying, stop eating tofu to you, whatever the fuck that shit is. Get out of here.

• 2:12:46Speaker 02

  Get out of it.

• 2:12:46Joe Rogan?

  Get the fuck out of here. That's nonsense. What are you eating? Also eat mollusks. People should look into that. Those things are so primitive. They're way more primitive than plants. We just have a problem with them moving. That's all it is. If if people like, they don't even have nerves. They don't feel pain. They're fucking the simplest of organisms, yet their protein is like animal protein. It's really good for you.

• 2:13:10Speaker 02

  Do you eat oysters?

• 2:13:11Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah. Eat the fuck out of oysters. And every now and then I hear about some dude dying. Yeah, I eat escargot. But every now and then I hear about a dude dying from oysters.

• 2:13:18Speaker 02

  So we are in Normandy. This is a super funny, funny story. So I I went out to the 80th anniversary for the Normandy invasion. Took a bunch of dudes out there and my kids and I are out on this beach. And I'm taking my pocket knife out and I'm just chopping the oysters off the rocks and eating oysters straight out of the ocean.

• 2:13:40Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow.

• 2:13:41Speaker 02

  And my girls are running away from me. They're like, this is the grossest shit I've ever seen. And then pretty soon they got into it. So then they're trying to find me the oysters to bring them back and show me where they are. My wife was like, you're gonna fucking die. Like, you're gonna, you're gonna poison yourself. You're eating these like right out of Normandy. Like, the, the, it's one of the beaches out there.

• 2:14:03Joe Rogan?

  All the munitions are in the water.

• 2:14:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't give a shit. And then I had to, when I'm eating them, I quickly searched, hey, are there, are there any toxins? After I've eaten like three.

• 2:14:17Speaker 02

  Are there any toxins in the oysters in Normandy? Thank God, it was like, you know, 99.9%. I'll live, I'll live on the edge here.

• 2:14:27Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, when I lived in San Francisco, you could collect mussels. There was like mussels that were on the rocks. But then I, I think I brought them home once, but then I found out that there's like a couple of months out of the year that they're poisoned. You get like red tide, right? So I was like, like I dodged a bullet, but I was like, what's that bullet? Cause you could just go find mussels and pluck them off of things.

• 2:14:50Speaker 02

  Let me, let me ask you this, like, so. If you were to move back to California, okay? But to take Texas politics with you.

• 2:15:01Joe Rogan?

  That's not really possible.

• 2:15:02Speaker 02

  But if it were, I'm taking you on an imaginary journey.

• 2:15:06Joe Rogan?

  Would I move?

• 2:15:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:15:07Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 2:15:07Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:15:07Joe Rogan?

  I like it here.

• 2:15:09Speaker 02

  You like the weather?

• 2:15:10Joe Rogan?

  I like everything. I like the size of it. I like the way people behave. People are super friendly. I like the scene here. The restaurant scene's amazing. The comedy scene's amazing. Live music. Bunch of cool people now. Like so many of my friends moved here. I love it here. I just love the vibe. I love that it's, you know, it's, I love that we're not connected to the Hollywood machine. There's like a pull of deals and shows and things that you get roped into doing because you think about the money they'll pay you.

• 2:15:45Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:15:46Joe Rogan?

  And then you wind up like becoming one of those people. Like you have to say what they say. You have to be, if you're not politically aligned with them, you're gonna lose gigs. You change your behavior. I see it with so many comics. They're really good comics coming up. They're like, wow, this guy's gonna be good. He's really good. He's getting better all the time. And then they get a fucking show. They get a show and then they tone everything down and everything gets softer. And everything, you know, you start seeing some like bullshit jokes in there like, oh, you decided to cover this joke, cover this subject just for like, just for like, street cred, progressive street cred. Like you see it happen. You're like, ah, you got called into the rocks.

• 2:16:31Joe Rogan?

  The sirens, they called you into the rocks. That's what it is, man. They call you into the rocks. You stop, you stop being you. You stop being you because they dangle that carrot in front of your face. And there's no carrot out here. The carrot is just podcasts and other comics.

• 2:16:46Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:16:46Joe Rogan?

  So that's way better. There's no control. There's no manipulation. There's no, someone's dangling this over you. You have to agree with what I agree with. No one cares at all about any of that stuff here.

• 2:17:01Speaker 02

  It's, it's freedom. And like, and we were talking about it the other, I think it was today, right? Where it's like, you know, another comic was like, oh, can you believe they're a Democrat? And I'm like, no, it's weird. Like, or whatever, right? You know?

• 2:17:15Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:15Speaker 02

  But it's- It's fine in the context of, I think, being a conservative, because I don't necessarily say like, I'm a Republican, I'm like, I just believe in less government. Like, I don't like bureaucrats at all. I have a high degree of skepticism on anything that they say, and I typically will question anything an elected official will say. So, for me, I'm like, I don't care if the guy next to me is gonna vote for, you know, whatever alternate politician. I care about, like, what are their ideas? Why do they think a certain way? What are they doing? What kind of a human are they? And what is the character

• 2:17:57Speaker 02

  of the individual? Am I gonna disagree with them? Yeah, but who the fuck cares? Like, it's kind of fun. Like, it's kind of fun to disagree with people and debate them and have a different opinion versus being in an echo chamber where people all agree and they're all kind of lack step in their belief system. It's kind of fun to have some wing nut talking about socialism half the time. You're like, what the fuck are you talking about? You believe in that? It's like some Orwellian nightmare, man.

• 2:18:23Joe Rogan?

  And if you could have a conversation with someone where you're friendly with each other and completely disagree, it's a beautiful dance. It's a fun dance to talk to people that have just completely different perspectives, but you're not rude to them. You just ask them, well, why do you think that? Well, did you ever consider this? And you have conversations, like, two normal two people just having a conversation. Okay, all right, so that's what you think. Huh. What was your childhood like? Just get into it. Like, what are we dealing with here? Like, why do you have this perspective? You know, and you have to be able to talk to each other. And there's a bunch of people that we hang out with that have totally different opinions on all kinds of things. Like, my friend Josh, who was here the other day, loving to death, he told me he voted for Jill Stein. Said he voted

• 2:19:08Joe Rogan?

  for Jill Stein, just like a protest vote. I think the two-party system's stupid. I'm like, yeah, okay, right, yeah, I get it. Look, I voted, I voted for, for two libertarian candidates in a row. So, I voted for Gary Johnson, and then I voted for Joe Jorgensen. Why? Because I was like, this is, this whole thing's gross. But that's like California, I knew it was gonna be blue anyway. California's always blue. It was like a legitimate protest vote. And I guess he was in Florida, so that's a legitimate protest vote, if you want to put it that way. It's gonna go red anyway, whether you like it or not.

• 2:19:43Speaker 02

  It's gonna go red.

• 2:19:44Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, Florida goes red, hard. When they saw Miami go red, they were like, oh, boy. Oh, boy. And one of the things that they were saying, it is like, the whole, uh, like, what goes red and what goes... Like, if you look at the country, like, California is way more red now than it's ever been in the last four years.

• 2:20:03Speaker 02

  I didn't know that.

• 2:20:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's a big difference. If you look at, there's a map of California, how it voted from 2020 to 2024, it's a giant swing. It's like, it's, the red's going like this. See if you can find it, Jamie? It's very interesting.

• 2:20:20Joe Rogan?

  And that's not because people have been radicalized. That's because the left has gone fucking cuckoo. You guys have gone crazy, and you're authoritarians. You want everybody to behave and believe and think and talk the way you do, or else.

• 2:20:36Joe Rogan?

  Look at that, look at the difference.

• 2:20:38Speaker 02

  Holy shit.

• 2:20:39Joe Rogan?

  Holy shit, dude.

• 2:20:41Speaker 02

  That is wild.

• 2:20:42Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's most of California by landmass, by far. It's probably 70% by landmass, or 60%.

• 2:20:49Speaker 02

  What is that blue up there on the east side? Like, what is that close to? Is that like Tahoe?

• 2:20:53Joe Rogan?

  That's probably where they grow the weed, son.

• 2:20:55Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:20:57Joe Rogan?

  What is that?

• 2:20:59Speaker 02

  Where, where, where are you guys at? You guys gotta be like Tahoe.

• 2:21:02Joe Rogan?

  What is that one?

• 2:21:03Speaker 02

  Like, that's gotta be like Truckee or something.

• 2:21:05Joe Rogan?

  You gotta shut off that blocker? These fuckers. There it goes. Oh, these fuckers. Oh, you have to get a signal.

• 2:21:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:21:14Joe Rogan?

  Go to the other, just the image, just the image real quick.

• 2:21:16Speaker 02

  See, I've thought about this because I always tell people, California is my, my favorite climate in the nation.

• 2:21:23Joe Rogan?

  It's the best. Yeah, that's it. So, what's the one in the upper... Well, it's not the one that's blue. Yeah, I guarantee you that's where they grow the weed.

• 2:21:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:21:34Joe Rogan?

  They want to keep everything nice and quiet up there. Shut the fuck up. Everybody shut the fuck up.

• 2:21:40Speaker 02

  Hey, man, we don't want these guys to like criminalize weed again.

• 2:21:44Joe Rogan?

  Where's Humboldt, Jamie? Where's Humboldt?

• 2:21:47Speaker 02

  It's up north.

• 2:21:47Speaker 03

  It's up here somewhere.

• 2:21:48Joe Rogan?

  Up there. That's where they grow all the best weed. That's where they have problems with the cartel, too. Cartel grows weed up there, too.

• 2:21:54Speaker 02

  The cartel grows weed in California?

• 2:21:56Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:21:57Speaker 02

  That's what I was gonna, that's what I wanted to ask you, was about the cartel. Do you think that they're really gonna?

• 2:22:02Speaker 03

  That one was Humboldt, when you guys were at it.

• 2:22:03Joe Rogan?

  There was Humboldt?

• 2:22:04Speaker 02

  Oh, shit, okay, there we go. You're right.

• 2:22:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, they grow all the weed, son.

• 2:22:09Speaker 02

  Yep, there you go.

• 2:22:10Joe Rogan?

  Um, yeah, there's a dude named John Norris who's been on the podcast. He wrote a book called Hidden Wars. And he was a, uh, game warden. So he's just thinking he's gonna go around checking fishing licenses and shit like that. And then one day they find a creek that's been diverted, so they have to follow the creek. They thought maybe a farmer had like dammed the creek somewhere and done something to get water illegally. He goes up there and he finds these PVC pipes and all, and they reach this giant grow op. And it's all cartel guys. And so, this guy's job changes. From being a game warden, let me check your fishing license, to running a fucking tactical unit. They had attack dogs. They had attack dogs. They had fucking shootouts with the cartel in the woods over weed.

• 2:22:52Joe Rogan?

  Cause here's what happened. California made weed legal in the state. But made growing it a misdemeanor if you grow it illegally.

• 2:23:01Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:23:01Joe Rogan?

  So if you are a person who's doing it legally, you can grow it and you can sell it if you have a license. You can open up a shop and you can sell it. They tax the shit out of it, it's great for everybody. But, the problem is, you made growing it illegally a misdemeanor. So then the cartel just starts growing it everywhere in the national forests, because even if the guys get arrested, nothing happens. It's a misdemeanor, so it's nothing. So they're using these crazy toxic poison pesticides, all this shit that's totally illegal to use on regular crops in America. And ninety percent of the illegal weed that's being bought around the country is coming from them.

• 2:23:39Speaker 02

  Holy shit, I didn't know that.

• 2:23:40Joe Rogan?

  And they're doing it all in national forests, and they're doing most of it in California. Dude, they find these grow- my friend found one. You know him, Cody.

• 2:23:49Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:23:50Joe Rogan?

  He found a fucking grow out on Tahone Ranch.

• 2:23:53Speaker 02

  Really?

• 2:23:54Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:23:55Speaker 02

  Oh my gosh, that's right. Yeah, yeah.

• 2:23:57Joe Rogan?

  Yes, he found a cartel grow up on Tahone Ranch. Where they had- this guy carried in pipes on his shoulder.

• 2:24:06Speaker 02

  And diverted a stream.

• 2:24:08Joe Rogan?

  Deep into the woods, diverted a stream. And then there was this whole field of weed that these guys had planted out there. They were camping out there. They had little religious symbols and shit they kept by their bed to protect them, like the Virgin Mary and shit.

• 2:24:21Speaker 02

  What do you think- I- I've heard this, is what I want to talk to you about, because it pertains to the cartel. It's like, what do you think about releasing SEAL Team Six and Delta Force on the cartels? What do you think that looks like?

• 2:24:31Joe Rogan?

  Well, I think you've solved one problem.

• 2:24:33Speaker 02

  Okay, what's the problem?

• 2:24:35Joe Rogan?

  You have- you no longer have distribution, but you still have a demand.

• 2:24:39Speaker 02

  You still have a demand?

• 2:24:40Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. The- the real problem is there's always gonna be a demand. The real problem, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that idea, by the way.

• 2:24:47Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:24:47Joe Rogan?

  I like that idea.

• 2:24:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:24:48Joe Rogan?

  But the problem with that idea is you're always gonna have a demand. And if you're gonna have a demand, someone's gonna fulfill that demand. And who the fuck is that gonna be? How are they gonna get the coke in? You're not gonna just not have coke. So here's the question. By having prohibition of alcohol in the United States, it's widely- widely agreed that that led to the rise of the mafia.

• 2:25:08Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:25:09Joe Rogan?

  Bootleggers, the mafia, criminal organizations that were organized crime, that went on to do a bunch of other horrible things inside our country, and they were built up with money because alcohol was illegal. The moment alcohol stopped being illegal, you still have these people with all this money now. You fucked up. Now they're organized gangsters, and now, you know, okay, alcohol's legal now, so they're just gonna sell it legally.

• 2:25:30Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 2:25:31Joe Rogan?

  And they have millions and millions of dollars from a life of crime. You've already done that with the cartel. You gotta do- you just gotta- you gotta do something. You gotta do something. And you probably also should legalize drugs. I don't think you should take drugs. I think coke is probably terrible for almost everybody. I think meth is probably terrible.

• 2:25:48Speaker 02

  Do people still do cocaine?

• 2:25:49Joe Rogan?

  Absolutely.

• 2:25:51Speaker 02

  Really?

• 2:25:51Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:25:52Speaker 02

  Like, it's really a thing still?

• 2:25:53Joe Rogan?

  I know people who do it. The grown Chinese investment in illegal American weed. Of course! Why wouldn't they get in on it?

• 2:25:58Speaker 03

  Check out this number that it says here. Of the 2,000, or sorry, of the 800 farms, the Obiens in Oklahoma, the Oklahoma Bureau of Narcotics has shut down in the last two years, 75% were linked to China.

• 2:26:11Joe Rogan?

  Oh my god, China's growing weed here. They're growing weed here. Oh my god.

• 2:26:16Speaker 02

  I was thinking about that from a, I was thinking about this from a thought exercise, where I'm like, because I, you know, I, I know these units, I'm intimately familiar with them.

• 2:26:26Joe Rogan?

  Uh huh.

• 2:26:28Speaker 02

  Bro, if we did clear war on the cartel, like these, these dudes are not gonna understand what the fuck is going on.

• 2:26:38Joe Rogan?

  No, of course not.

• 2:26:38Speaker 02

  They are, they are gonna be, because, God, God bless those guys.

• 2:26:43Joe Rogan?

  You'll stop the distribution. That's gonna be, yeah.

• 2:26:47Speaker 02

  They, they are in for a world of like ultra violence they've never actually felt before, because you know, obviously this is a very capable ultra violent organization, they have fucking no clue. If we organize these tier one units against them, this is gonna be, what I would be doing if I was down there, like, I know all those shoeboxes in my fucking, you know, my walls that I'm gonna have to collect up, I'd be getting ready to retire right now, that's what I would be doing. Because if Delta Force is hunting me, bro, I would be so terrified.

• 2:27:18Joe Rogan?

  Is that a real thing that they, they've proposed doing?

• 2:27:21Speaker 02

  Yes, that is a real thing.

• 2:27:23Joe Rogan?

  Who proposed that?

• 2:27:24Speaker 02

  Ah, I, I'm almost positive either JD or Trump had said something with the new guy from ICE, like, we're gonna mobilize tier one units against the cartel. I, the only thing I thought was like, retire. If you, if you guys, you guys got some money, man, I would like, put that away, you know, like, maybe move Jamaica, I don't know, go somewhere.

• 2:27:45Joe Rogan?

  Open a restaurant.

• 2:27:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, buy a restaurant, like, try to go legit, because, dude, if those guys are hunting you.

• 2:27:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:27:53Speaker 02

  By the way, like you're done. You're fucking done.

• 2:27:57Joe Rogan?

  And it's a weird thing that that's going on right at our border.

• 2:28:00Speaker 02

  So strange.

• 2:28:01Joe Rogan?

  Thing. Cause it's so close to us and it's so ultra violent and dangerous and it's just completely shaped the way the entire economy of the country works. You know, they're they have so much power and control and it's a criminal organization that is entirely, almost entirely, at least funded by us. By our desire. Trump declares war on cartels. President-elect said notorious crime syndicates and drug kingpins will never sleep soundly again. Once he launches his plans to tackle the issue.

• 2:28:31Speaker 02

  I I thought about this for a long time where I'm like, if they if they turned loose Delta Force and SEAL Team Six on cartels and pedophiles, we could just kind of like erase the problem in about two years. It's be gone.

• 2:28:47Joe Rogan?

  He wants to send troops to Mexico. He said we make appropriate use of special forces, cyber warfare, and other over and covert actions to inflict maximum damage on cartel leadership, infrastructure and operations. Oh, Jesus. Bro, it is going to get wild come January 20th.

• 2:29:03Speaker 02

  It's gonna get wild, man.

• 2:29:04Joe Rogan?

  It is gonna get wild. Very interesting. But the thing is like people inaction is action as well when it comes to this. Like you're just, you're gonna continue to prop them up. They're gonna get more and more power and more and more money. And we gotta figure out why everybody wants coke. What the fuck is it?

• 2:29:20Speaker 02

  You think it's coke?

• 2:29:21Joe Rogan?

  I think that's the big one. I'm pretty sure it's the big one. I'm sure a lot of it is pills. They have fake pills. Like they sell like street pills, street, you know, different like anti-anxiety medications, Molly. There's a lot of stuff they sell that's also laced up with fentanyl. Which is responsible for, you know, who knows how many tens of thousands of

• 2:29:40Speaker 02

  It's like 200,000 people is what they're what they're saying. Is it fentanyl responsible for that?

• 2:29:45Joe Rogan?

  Crazy high, crazy high.

• 2:29:46Speaker 02

  It's insane.

• 2:29:47Joe Rogan?

  It's it's a horrific thing and it's gotten to the point where people are scared to try any kind of drug because they're thinking fentanyl. They found fentanyl and weed. You know?

• 2:29:55Speaker 02

  What?

• 2:29:55Joe Rogan?

  Yes. They've found fentanyl laced weed. Yeah. People are dumb as shit, man. You don't think they'll try putting fentanyl in weed? People are dumb as shit. They'll try all kinds of things. People are retarded.

• 2:30:09Joe Rogan?

  I know people that have mixed MAO inhibitors and mushrooms and acid all together. Like, what are you doing? Are you trying to go to space? Like, what are you doing, man? Jesus Christ, you're just experimenting on your brain.

• 2:30:22Speaker 02

  Was that MAO inhibitor, what'd you just say?

• 2:30:24Joe Rogan?

  An MAO inhibitor, monoamine oxidase inhibitor. It's the ingredient in ayahuasca that makes DMT orally active. So monoamine oxidase breaks down DMT in the gut. That's why when you eat like, if you eat a salad, that's why you don't trip balls.

• 2:30:40Speaker 02

  Got it, okay.

• 2:30:41Joe Rogan?

  Cause otherwise like, most plants, some crazy number of plants have DMT in it. So, like how many plants have DMT in it? I think it's like a thousand or something nutty like that.

• 2:30:52Speaker 02

  When you think about the legalization of psilocybin.

• 2:30:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:30:57Speaker 02

  So, Texas, and this is what I know about Texas because they're leading, I think, a lot of research specifically related to vets.

• 2:31:05Joe Rogan?

  Apparently the former governor Rick Scott is really into this.

• 2:31:07Speaker 02

  Rick Perry.

• 2:31:08Joe Rogan?

  Rick Perry, excuse me.

• 2:31:09Speaker 02

  Rick Perry, because of his relationship with Marcus, Luttrell, and some of the other guys in the community, he has been leading the charge on this. Do you think that from psilocybin being legal in the United States, do you think it would be an issue? Do you think it'd be an issue at all?

• 2:31:27Joe Rogan?

  I don't know, because you're gonna get people trying it they wouldn't try it before. You're gonna get people that use it irresponsibly, just like you get people that drink irresponsibly. I think that's the situation that we find ourselves in if we're gonna give people personal freedom. They're gonna make bad decisions. You know, you can buy a Corvette, right? You can go to the Chevrolet dealership, buy a Corvette right off the lot that goes zero to 60 in four seconds. And you're flying around corners, you could be a fucking maniac and kill people in a Corvette. Or you could just enjoy it on the highway and be responsible. And say, wow, what a great car, this thing's awesome, I love it.

• 2:32:04Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:32:04Joe Rogan?

  And you don't cause any problems for anybody.

• 2:32:06Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:32:06Joe Rogan?

  Both things are possible. That's what's gonna happen if we make drugs legal. You're gonna have people try those drugs that probably shouldn't be trying those drugs. You're gonna have people get addicted to those drugs that maybe wouldn't have gotten addicted if those drugs weren't available to them, especially if they weren't legal, if you could just buy it somewhere. But if you don't rip the fucking Band-Aid off of this like infatilization of society and let people know that there are things out there that they're telling you you can't do. And the people who are telling you you can't do them haven't even experienced them. And when it comes to things like psilocybin and psychedelics, like if you haven't experienced them, you really shouldn't be talking about them. You have no idea what you're talking

• 2:32:50Joe Rogan?

  about. You just, you can't possibly know. You can't know. And if you do, if you have experienced them, then you're probably gonna agree with me. You're probably gonna agree that there's some, like some serious benefits to it. Fifty. God, I thought it was a lot more than that.

• 2:33:07Joe Rogan?

  At least fifty. I had read something that was like in the hundreds.

• 2:33:11Speaker 02

  I can't find a solid number. I mean, it's in a lot of stuff, but.

• 2:33:14Joe Rogan?

  So the point is, like, I know phaleris grass is like really rich with DMT. And that's also the acacia tree. That's what, when they connected, there's like a university in Jerusalem that connected this idea of Moses and the burning bush to a DMT trip.

• 2:33:29Speaker 02

  Oh, right.

• 2:33:30Joe Rogan?

  Because the acacia tree is like rich in DMT and the idea of burning it. You see God and God gives you this message and tells you what to do and what the rules of behavior are. These, I think, anybody telling you that these things should get you locked up has clearly never experienced them.

• 2:33:46Speaker 02

  No, they never have. Like, I spent all of my life with a top-secret security clearance. Like, most of my life, like from my twenties to like my forties, right? And my personal experience with them, this is before, you know, before we went public, but my personal experience with them was my, you know, my, my problems were rep after rep, cycle after cycle of.

• 2:34:18Speaker 02

  Combat after like relatively high stress scenario after scenario after scenario. And I was having a really, really hard time trying to directly connect with love. I actually could not connect with that experience. It was really difficult. And my wife and I were going, we were going through this, this ongoing debate and dialogue with it. And she's like, you need to try it. And we tried it. It fast forward probably 20 years of talk therapy for me personally.

• 2:34:58Speaker 02

  And it gave me this, this like direct connection with this, this feeling that I hadn't felt for years. And this is the feeling, and this is my point with, with, with vets and especially from the combat vets. The guys have got rep after rep after rep with over pressure and explosions and a lot of violence. Is that they lose context with this really important feeling that you have to have, which is you have to have direct love for your family, for your spouse, for yourself. And if you've, if you've killed that by all of the things that you've done, you've built a scaffolding, this artificial scaffolding on top of this, it creates a callus.

• 2:35:43Speaker 02

  And you gotta be able to break through that. From a, from a psychological perspective, an emotional perspective, it accelerates that back and you can kind of reset. You, you really can. Yeah. I can't imagine, I, you know, I was thinking about this when like my dad's like 80 years old, right? Like, man, if, if he's got, he's got lung cancer now. And I'm like, gosh, if he could like coalesce around.

• 2:36:17Speaker 02

  Killing ego and past and try to understand himself from a different, more introspective way. This would take decades, maybe, of talk therapy or a session. Where you could, you could really accelerate your growth as an individual. And I think that's for, for GWAT vets and for vets in general, I mean, I think that's what they're, they're missing this key component is being able to retouch what their emotional strength and be able to balance these things out where you can evolve and live your life. I, do you think, you've said it before, I don't know if you said it on a show, but do you think society would benefit from it?

• 2:37:02Joe Rogan?

  I think a lot of people would benefit from it, but I think a lot of people wouldn't. I don't think people with real psychological disorders should be doing it.

• 2:37:13Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:37:14Joe Rogan?

  You know, I think people that are really fucked up and having a hard time with schizophrenics, people, you know, I don't know, I think it's probably dangerous for you. I think it's probably a bit of a stress test for your psyche. You know, you hear about these stories, like the guy from Pink Floyd that dropped acid and freaked out and never came back. There's those stories, like we hear those stories of guys who just go out there and kind of, you lose them. I've kind of seen it with some people. I've seen it with one, one kid who was just like smoking a ton of weed and just lost his mind and became schizophrenic. And you don't know, like, did he have a tendency towards schizophrenia already? Did he fall prey? Was it just his unique biochemistry and how he interacted with weed? Was it just inveterate weed? I mean, he was, every day, he was smoking weed constantly.

• 2:37:59Joe Rogan?

  What is it? Like, what, what caused him to crack? You know? I don't know. I don't know. But I don't, I don't have that problem. And I, I think it's very beneficial. And I don't like when people tell me that because someone has a problem with something that I shouldn't do it. I don't agree with that. I think you should be allowed to take chances as a person. I think if you want to do BMX jumps and fucking do flips on your bike, you should be allowed to do it. You want to do jujitsu and have grown men try to kill you? Go ahead, go do it. Do whatever the fuck you want to do. I don't think anybody should be able to tell you what you can and can't do. But why does that change when you talk about substances that someone puts in their body? Well, because those people could do those and then they could commit crimes, but those are already crimes. Like you already go to jail for those crimes.

• 2:38:40Joe Rogan?

  So if you do something violent because you're on a drug, you're going to jail because you did something violent. Hmm. Like there's a crime, you committed that crime, you go to jail. So like we already have laws to fix, like that address all the problems. And you're assuming that more problems would occur. We don't know that. We don't know that. We don't know that more people won't chill the fuck out and wouldn't have a dramatic decrease in violence across the country. Imagine that. Imagine you have a few people that lose their fucking mind, but you have a dramatic increase in consciousness through the entire country. Where people develop like a mushroom culture and people start like microdosing all the time.

• 2:39:15Joe Rogan?

  And people get way more comfortable with talking to each other, way more creative, way more like community oriented and love oriented. That's not a bad thing. No. That's, that's a real possibility with something that exists right now. There's a happy pill, it's out there and it's illegal. And it's, God made it. God made it. And it's probably the source of most religious experiences. There's probably some sort of a connection to a lot of those religious experiments, or experiences rather, and what was probably some sort of a psychedelic adventure that they went on. And who's to say that that's not even how you talk to God in the first place? We don't know because it's been, it's been held back from us.

• 2:40:01Joe Rogan?

  It's been kept from us like we're a bunch of babies. It's something that human beings have used for thousands and thousands of years. The Greeks used psychedelics to start democracy. And yet here we are in the greatest democracy the world's ever known in 2024 with full access to the internet. All the data that's available, all the anecdotal stories, and it'll get you locked in a fucking cage. That's nuts. That's really crazy. It's completely insane. That doesn't make no sense. I've tried to look at it from all different ways. I do agree with you if, and when people say if you make cocaine legal, people are gonna die. Unfortunately, I agree with you. But if you don't make cocaine legal, people are also going to die. I don't know which one is more.

• 2:40:45Joe Rogan?

  And I don't know if it was just real cocaine versus cocaine mixed with a bunch of other horrible shit. If like the real cocaine wouldn't kill as many people. I don't know how many people are dying just of cocaine and how many people are dying of fentanyl-laced cocaine. I bet it's way more fentanyl-laced cocaine. So if you had just pure cocaine and the same amount of users, you're gonna get way less deaths. So that's a net positive. Then, you take taxes from that sale of that legal cocaine and you use it to sell it rehabilitation centers where you give them ibogaine. Give people the ability to break addictions. It's possible people do it. They go to Mexico, kick opioids. People do it all the time. My friend Ed Clay did it. That's how he got into it. He started his own clinic.

• 2:41:28Joe Rogan?

  Because he went down there because he had a pill problem. You get an injury, you're doing jujitsu, you're always fucking hurt. These guys get a disc problem, their arm's all fucked up. They take a little pill, huh. You feel better. But then you need three pills. Then you need four. Then now you're fucked. And now, there's nothing to help you other than ibogaine. And that's illegal. So you make that legal too. So with those two together, who knows? You might have way less deaths. And then you would have taxes that you could take from that stuff and use for all sorts of things. It would be horrible for taxes from cocaine sales to fix the schools. But what if that's what did it? What if that's what did it? And what if the exact same amount of people buying cocaine are still buying cocaine?

• 2:42:12Joe Rogan?

  What if that is the fix? And what if responsible use of drugs, all kinds of drugs? Sure, don't drive a car when you're coked up. Don't take heroin and fly your plane. No, and responsible use. Just like responsible use of alcohol. Why is that so crazy for us? Why is that so alien? Because we've been turned into babies. Been turned into babies where you're allowed to take pharmaceutical drugs that make you high as fuck. Whether it's high as fuck on Adderall or high as fuck on opioid, that's fine. But you can't go out and get yourself some mushrooms. That's just crazy. And for these people that are the ones in charge that are making all the money from these decisions to keep up with this insanity.

• 2:42:56Joe Rogan?

  In the internet in 2024 in this tide of change, I feel the same way about them as you feel about those poor cartel members. Like, you probably should be doing something else.

• 2:43:10Joe Rogan?

  What is this?

• 2:43:12Joe Rogan?

  What weed and fentanyl? Short answer is they're false. There's no solid evidence that marijuana is being laced with fentanyl. Here's some of the reasons why. His, um, didn't someone get caught with it though?

• 2:43:24Speaker 03

  It said this, at the bottom, it says that there's been a few publicly stated like media stories that have said it's, that's what the case was.

• 2:43:32Joe Rogan?

  I think we were talking about one, then they said there was weed that was laced with fentanyl that someone got arrested for.

• 2:43:37Speaker 03

  This is lab test claims that they were errors and then the corrections don't make the headlines.

• 2:43:42Joe Rogan?

  Hmm, how do you get an error? How much fentanyl is out there that's an error? Oh, it was just contamination. It wasn't the weed that had fentanyl. Fentanyl's all over the place.

• 2:43:51Speaker 03

  It could've just been a field test. They could've just been like, does this have fentanyl on it? They rub the weed and the weed comes back like, yep, someone touched fentanyl and they touched the weed and now you've got fentanyl laced weed.

• 2:44:00Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:44:01Speaker 03

  It could be that easy.

• 2:44:02Joe Rogan?

  That actually does make sense, right? Because if you think it's some cracked out dude working in the weed fields for the cartel. He's probably gonna be doing fentanyl.

• 2:44:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's gonna be doing fentanyl. He's gonna be, he's gonna be all on everything, basically. So it's gonna pop positive on everything.

• 2:44:15Joe Rogan?

  He's in a tent. He's on a tent in the fucking woods with a little Virgin Mary statue. Like, for real?

• 2:44:21Speaker 02

  I know. He's gonna get candles.

• 2:44:23Joe Rogan?

  Bro, having shootouts with the fucking, the cops. It's so crazy that that's going on. And that there's hundreds of them and that the Chinese are running them.

• 2:44:32Speaker 02

  Like, this is the most insane part, where it's like, everybody knows what's going on.

• 2:44:36Joe Rogan?

  How crazy is that?

• 2:44:37Speaker 02

  All these chemicals are coming from China, they're being offloaded in Mexico and South America, they're being, like, produced and then crossed, and then they're pushed across the border. Everybody knows.

• 2:44:47Joe Rogan?

  Do you ever talk to Mike Baker about any of this stuff?

• 2:44:50Speaker 02

  No, I, I've never actually talked to Mike Baker.

• 2:44:53Joe Rogan?

  Do you know him? You've never met him?

• 2:44:54Speaker 02

  No, I've never met him.

• 2:44:55Joe Rogan?

  Oh my god, I gotta bring you two guys together. I love that dude. But what he, one of the things that he was telling me was about the Chinese sell cellphone towers, like, cheaper.

• 2:45:04Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:45:04Joe Rogan?

  They're like, "You just buy ours. We're not gonna listen to you." And they put them all around military bases.

• 2:45:09Speaker 02

  "We promise, we're not gonna listen to you. Hey, guys, the Chinese said they're not gonna listen to us." I mean, that's good enough for me.

• 2:45:15Joe Rogan?

  They're around this nuclear weapons facility.

• 2:45:18Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 2:45:18Joe Rogan?

  They're all over the place. And then they buy land, like, Dr. Phil was highlighting that. And they buy land right next to military bases, like, how fucking silly are we? This is so, we're so silly. Like, someone's moving our chess pieces around, like, "Oh, this isn't happening." This isn't even happening.

• 2:45:35Speaker 02

  People don't think like that.

• 2:45:35Joe Rogan?

  There's no way they'd be buying up all the weed. There's no way they'd be buying up all the farmland right next to the military.

• 2:45:41Speaker 02

  There's no way they would be exporting chemicals so they could manufacture fentanyl to come in and basically eviscerate 200,000 fucking people. There's no way they would, the Chinese, there's no way they would do that.

• 2:45:52Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy to even think. Meanwhile, the only way you get those chemicals is from China. The only way you get it is from China. They send them to Mexico, they cook it up, they send it our way. Whoo.

• 2:46:03Speaker 02

  But no, there, there's no way the Chinese are thinking that maliciously.

• 2:46:06Joe Rogan?

  There's no way. There's no way. Well, aren't they still mad at us for, like, the opium wars?

• 2:46:13Speaker 02

  I think the Chinese are not necessarily mad at us, they're just thinking about themselves from a hundred-year vision. And they're saying, "Okay, where do we, where, where, where and how do we ascend to..."

• 2:46:27Speaker 02

  Being able to take place, take America's place as the, the international superpower.

• 2:46:34Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:46:34Speaker 02

  So, I don't know if they necessarily have an opinion-based ax to grind. It's more about how do we put the pieces together to take the pole position away from the United States?

• 2:46:45Joe Rogan?

  I'm sure that's their primary goal, but I do remember reading something where they were talking about, was it British? Who, there was people that introduced opium to the Chinese, like on purpose? It was like a campaign, the first opium war, 1800s, okay. Uh, Britain, the war was triggered by China's efforts to enforce its ban on opium. The British responded by sending a naval expedition to force China to pay reparations and allow the opium trade. Yeah. So, the British wanted to keep that fucking dope flowing. Isn't that wild? They went to war to keep the dope flowing.

• 2:47:27Joe Rogan?

  This is what people have to recognize about Afghanistan too.

• 2:47:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:47:31Joe Rogan?

  This is something that, it sounds so conspiracy theory that no one even wants to touch it, but the troops had to guard the poppy fields. Afghanistan heroin went way up when we went in there, went way, way up. Their production went way up. They were supplying at one point in time, what was the number, Jamie?

• 2:47:50Speaker 02

  Seventy percent.

• 2:47:51Joe Rogan?

  Was that what it was? Seventy percent of the world's heroin was coming out of a place that we had occupied.

• 2:47:56Speaker 02

  Well, and the other, the other issue is that, um, you know, the Taliban was using the opium and essentially to fund their growth in the, their militia. So, the DEA was out there. So, you had the DEA out in Afghanistan doing direct action ops. And you had soft guys that were going out, walking through poppy fields and marijuana fields and all these other things. Then you'd pass it off to the DEA.

• 2:48:25Joe Rogan?

  Ninety percent.

• 2:48:26Speaker 02

  Oh, ninety-five, yeah.

• 2:48:27Joe Rogan?

  In 2021, ninety percent.

• 2:48:30Speaker 02

  Ninety percent.

• 2:48:30Joe Rogan?

  Holy shit. Holy shit.

• 2:48:33Speaker 02

  You destabilize the entire country, you deter everyone from actually focusing on the opium. You focus on terrorism and the Taliban, and then you allow it to flourish and... The dirty secret nobody wants to talk about from that perspective is that we've, we as a country have dealt with a lot of shady opium dealers, like drug lords that were essentially exporting opium. And if they weren't part of the Taliban and/or if they were anti Taliban, you'd do business with them. It's the same story.

• 2:49:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:49:09Speaker 02

  What's your triage of priorities? So, you know, how, hey, we need to get, you know, we need to fund our army in South America. So, hey, how do we do that? Let's like, let's import some coca. You know, let's invent a market because we gotta get, you know, we gotta push back against the commies in Nicaragua. It's the same story. It's deter.

• 2:49:34Joe Rogan?

  I've had freeway Ricky Ross on like three times. I had him on recently. I had him on recently. Yeah. And he was the guy. He was the guy who was making millions, millions and millions and millions of dollars. He couldn't read. He was making millions of dollars selling coke for the fucking government. Myanmar overtakes Afghanistan, the world's top opium producer. Violent political turmoil in Myanmar in the years since 2021 coup has contributed to production increase. Wow. So they took over. That quick? What's that?

• 2:50:05Speaker 03

  Check this out. Meth is cheaper than beer there.

• 2:50:08Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 2:50:10Speaker 03

  There's a lot of drugs going on there.

• 2:50:11Joe Rogan?

  Whoa. 25 cents each? That's all? Imagine for a quarter, you could do meth?

• 2:50:17Speaker 02

  The golden, the golden triangle.

• 2:50:20Joe Rogan?

  Imagine doing meth, imagine doing that quarter meth. What kind of judgment do you have? You pop that 25 cent meth and fucking chug it down with a Budweiser. What are you doing, man? What kind of life are you living?

• 2:50:31Speaker 03

  This guy said he took 10 pills his first time.

• 2:50:33Joe Rogan?

  Oh, boy. How did it work out?

• 2:50:35Speaker 03

  I took 10 pills and I was totally lost. Didn't recognize my family. Didn't recognize my children.

• 2:50:39Joe Rogan?

  Son. Couldn't sleep at all. I didn't drink. I didn't eat. I felt powerful.

• 2:50:48Joe Rogan?

  The last one's so perfect.

• 2:50:50Speaker 02

  I felt powerful.

• 2:50:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, look, I don't think that should be legal, but, well, here, I don't think you should do it, but I think it should be legal. I think if it's not legal, the cartel sells it. You just have to figure out what to do with the money that you're gonna make from it. Because that's devil money. Like, you're selling meth money. Like, that's devil money. You're ruining people's lives. So there's gonna be a bunch of slippery people that are kinda hanging on, but doing their best, and you're gonna meth them down the road to oblivion. That's true. That's true. That's true, but that's not gonna happen to me. I'm not gonna get methed out. I'm not gonna try it. I haven't even tried Adderall. I'm scared of it. So, some people are gonna figure it out, just like most things in life. Just like drinking, just like driving, just like doing jujitsu, just like riding a BMX bike. Some people are gonna get hurt.

• 2:51:40Joe Rogan?

  So, we have to decide, what's more valuable to you? Nerfing the whole fucking world? Or, people figuring out what's best for everybody? And the only way to do that is to give people freedom. That's it. It's the only way that works. We figure out what works, what doesn't work, by successes and failures, and we all adjust along the way. But you gotta give people freedom. Freedom and information, those are two very important things. When you're suppressing either one of them, you can't be the good guy.

• 2:52:08Speaker 02

  No, no, no, you're not the good guy. You're not the good guy. Freedom has to be sacred.

• 2:52:14Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:52:14Speaker 02

  Across the board. Which, freedom comes with accountability, which means responsibility. And that's the problem, is that when freedom, I think when you can distill it down and you can create control, then you can create profit. So, power, control, and profit, those things, like, they directly have this confluence where people in power obviously manipulate that, and they'll restrict our freedom.

• 2:52:38Joe Rogan?

  Yes, especially if they can make more money.

• 2:52:40Speaker 02

  A 100%.

• 2:52:41Joe Rogan?

  Have more control. Have more power.

• 2:52:45Speaker 02

  And if COVID taught us anything, it taught us that we can't... forfeit freedom to low IQ, power hungry bureaucrats that want to affect our life because they're stupid. So, why would we ever give away our freedom to a bunch of stupid bureaucrats?

• 2:53:03Joe Rogan?

  Exactly.

• 2:53:04Speaker 02

  That to me is the fundamental difference between the entire election process. It's like, how do I maintain or increase my individual accountability, which comes with freedom, right? And how, if we want to capitulate that, that's the other side. I think that's a referendum on freedom.

• 2:53:22Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:53:23Speaker 02

  I don't want to oversimplify it, but that's kind of where I think it is.

• 2:53:27Joe Rogan?

  It's where it is. You're not oversimplifying it. If you don't have that, you don't have any of these things.

• 2:53:31Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:53:32Joe Rogan?

  You don't have any growth. You don't. You're gonna have people that are in power that stifle discourse, they're gonna stifle debate, they're gonna stifle it because they only want their side to be heard. It's that lady at the table telling me that Sam Harris and Douglas Murray was hate speech. It's those people. You're gonna have those people dictating what you can and can't talk about, based on their own morals, and you don't even know how they think about things. You don't even know them. They don't do podcasts, they're not hanging out with you at the bar, you're not going to dinner with them, you don't fucking know them, so you don't know if they're making good judgment calls. You don't know if their assessment of something is something you agree with, or if it's even rational. You don't know. You just, these weird strikes you get on your account. You get like this fear-based letter that comes to you, "If you do this again, you're fucked."

• 2:54:17Joe Rogan?

  You're like, "Oh no, now what do I do? Well, I better self-censor and go along with the machine and stop misgendering people and stop doing this and stop doing that and stop saying this." And then you're fucked. And then you're fucked. And then you might as well be living in any other country that's controlled by a dictator. It's just a dictator by a different name.

• 2:54:36Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:54:37Joe Rogan?

  That's all it is. It's fascism, but it's not right-wing fascism, it's left-wing fascism. It's adherence to the state. They want you to go along with the mandate. The way they talk about things is the way you have to talk about things. And to think if anything, this election was a giant fuck you to all that, where everyone was like, "Fuck, you guys are fucking crazy, we see where this is going." You're going right off a cliff and you're running. And if anything that showed you about that, the Harris budget, which he spent a billion dollars, 580 million of it or something like that was for staff?

• 2:55:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:55:13Joe Rogan?

  580 million?

• 2:55:17Joe Rogan?

  And there's all this money that went to all these outreach groups and all these different and celebrities and what the fuck is this? And then there are 20 million dollars in debt at the end of it? And you want to manage the economy? This sounds crazy. This is a... What did you do? Like, what happened here? Who went crazy with the checkbook? Yeah. Who went hog wild? Who went hog wild? Nobody in the administration has ever been business, right? I mean, like, nobody. Find out what the numbers were to staff. Because I want to be accurate about that, but I think I am. I think it was 580 million. And I was watching this on Fox News, and they don't lie. No, they don't. No.

• 2:56:01Joe Rogan?

  They never lie. Didn't they get... They had a giant lawsuit, right? The Dominion lawsuit? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that was a big one. They got hit. I had a piss. All right, let's take a little break here, ladies and gentlemen. We'll be right back. Yeah, they said it on Fox News, Jamie, so it has to be true. It has to be true.

• 2:56:19Joe Rogan?

  Man, that's way better. Oh. Fuck. No, better than Fox News. Patrick Bet David.

• 2:56:24Speaker 03

  I know, I know. I'm telling you, I see the tweets that say that, but Fox News's website says the campaign spent 56 million dollars on payroll and payroll taxes.

• 2:56:33Joe Rogan?

  So what's that other money? But wasn't there all the money that they had spent on activism?

• 2:56:39Speaker 03

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 2:56:41Joe Rogan?

  Didn't they count that in staff?

• 2:56:42Speaker 03

  But this... No, I don't know. This all comes from, like, Twitter. I don't know where they get the number from.

• 2:56:47Joe Rogan?

  Well, if it comes from Twitter, Jamie, it's real.

• 2:56:49Speaker 03

  I'm just telling you.

• 2:56:50Joe Rogan?

  Stop being a fucking party pooper.

• 2:56:52Speaker 03

  There's people asking for their sources.

• 2:56:54Joe Rogan?

  Scroll up, and let me see what this says. It says... But no, I'm sorry. Scroll down a little. I just want to see what all it says. So, it says Kamala raised 1.003 billion. She spent 1.37 billion. She spent 582.53 million on staff.

• 2:57:14Speaker 03

  That doesn't add up, because I saw she spent 680 million on ads. So those two numbers, you know, there's no money left over for everything else.

• 2:57:22Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:57:23Speaker 03

  So one of the two isn't correct.

• 2:57:24Joe Rogan?

  One of them's... How much did she spend on ads?

• 2:57:26Speaker 03

  680 million or something.

• 2:57:27Joe Rogan?

  Oh, my God. That's like the... She could have done my podcast for free. Dude, that is like the...

• 2:57:34Speaker 02

  The secret, it's not even a secret. When it's campaign time and you have all these ads, these ad guys that are out there.

• 2:57:43Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:57:44Speaker 02

  They're buying up all the ads and it's a wash in money.

• 2:57:47Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:57:49Speaker 02

  Hundreds of millions of dollars and they're just pipelining campaign donations into ads. And it's like loading up their money guns and just shooting it into space. That's what they're doing.

• 2:58:06Joe Rogan?

  That is what it's like, right?

• 2:58:07Speaker 02

  I know.

• 2:58:08Joe Rogan?

  And they've been telling people that this is effective.

• 2:58:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:58:11Joe Rogan?

  And so they have this, this business going.

• 2:58:13Speaker 02

  It, it, it's just complete absurdity. Which, don't get me wrong, I, I actually, politics is so fun for me because I think it's, it's really interesting. And it's like, it's, I, I can't get into football or anything else because I, I like the data associated with things. And I, if I got into football, I'd be like one of those fantasy football dorks and I can't get into it. And so politics is one of the things where I'm like, I follow it, I love it, it's interesting.

• 2:58:42Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:58:43Speaker 02

  Just trying to understand the strategy behind it.

• 2:58:46Joe Rogan?

  I've changed my opinion of it a little bit since the election.

• 2:58:50Joe Rogan?

  I don't think, um, the, the control, the grip of the control of the country is as strong as I thought it was. I thought, I thought this concept, so everyone has a concept of they, they don't want you to know things. They're controlling things. I have a feeling that in times of crisis, like what we find ourselves currently in, it's like when the lights come on and roaches scatter. That's what I have a feeling. I have a feeling there's no way that they can trust each other. And that they all know that a certain percentage of people are going down for corruption. There's a certain percentage of people that did some dirty shit.

• 2:59:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:59:26Joe Rogan?

  There's a cer- there's some connections with organizations and corporations and some emails, save your emails. It's one of the things that Rock, RFK said, yeah.

• 2:59:36Speaker 02

  That was one of the best.

• 2:59:37Joe Rogan?

  Preserve your records and pack your bags.

• 2:59:38Speaker 02

  Dude, so epic.

• 2:59:41Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's epic. Preserve your records because we know. You're all a bunch of liars.

• 2:59:45Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:59:45Joe Rogan?

  We, we, we've caught you already on emails, lying about stuff. So this is, you've all perjured yourselves. Like Fauci perjured himself.

• 2:59:52Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:59:52Joe Rogan?

  There's no, there's just the, just the definition of gain of function. Like, shut the fuck up. You don't change the definition and make it ultra, super nuanced so that it fits in your little excuse box of why you didn't fund gain of function research. The fuck you didn't. That's what you did. That's what it is. And when Rand Paul was confronting him with it, that was like one of the craziest moments. You, sir, do not know what you are talking about. It's like an evil villain.

• 3:00:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:00:18Joe Rogan?

  An evil villain that just lied to everybody and got away with it. And no repercussions.

• 3:00:26Speaker 02

  Well, I think that's, I think that's like the story over and over for these guys that are in power. There's no repercussions.

• 3:00:32Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:00:33Speaker 02

  There's no accountability. I oftentimes think of Dick Cheney as a guy sitting back in, in like a high back leather chair in a, in a, in a big, in a big, uh, black tile office that's completely shiny with a white cat on his lap, like just petting it. That's the way I think about that fucking guy. Like fuck that guy. Like, how, like, these guys, you know, to keep flashing back to this, but it forever fucking changed me, right? Where I'm like,

• 3:01:05Speaker 02

  these guys fucked up so many people's lives. Like countless, countless lives. And the fact that they still think they have public trust with zero accountability?

• 3:01:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:01:20Speaker 02

  Man.

• 3:01:22Joe Rogan?

  How wild was it when Dick Cheney was endorsing Obama, or excuse me, was endorsing Kamala?

• 3:01:27Speaker 02

  Of course he was.

• 3:01:28Joe Rogan?

  And everybody was like, yeah, look at that, right wing people.

• 3:01:31Speaker 02

  Yeah. Like, you might as well have painted, if, if you would have been a NASCAR driver, he would have had a Lockheed Martin fucking jersey on right then, at that point.

• 3:01:40Joe Rogan?

  Or Satan.

• 3:01:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Satan, Lockheed Martin.

• 3:01:44Joe Rogan?

  Sponsored by Satan.

• 3:01:47Speaker 02

  It's good. Patches on his uniform like that Chappelle. You remember that fucking Chappelle skit where it's like politicians. Where NASCAR drivers.

• 3:01:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:01:57Speaker 02

  I like the bash.

• 3:01:58Joe Rogan?

  Satan would be amazing. Just all caps on the back Satan. And the liberals would still find a way. That's not, you know, it is not, it's like Satanism in the classical sense. It was just like a rejection of the norm.

• 3:02:12Speaker 02

  I mean, think about it. He's a fallen angel. You know, I mean, think about how, how bad that is. You know, we have to, we have to think about it.

• 3:02:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, Dick Cheney's basically a fallen angel.

• 3:02:20Speaker 02

  Have you seen those Babylon Bee skits where it's like Satan talking to the, the Democrats about like, dude, you guys fuck. You guys, you guys jumped the shark on this. What are you doing? It's, it's so good.

• 3:02:32Joe Rogan?

  Did you see the Babylon Bee's one recently where they're talking about criticizing Trump's new appointments in comparison to Biden's appointments? Have you seen it?

• 3:02:41Speaker 02

  No.

• 3:02:42Joe Rogan?

  It's just images.

• 3:02:43Speaker 02

  I can, I can fucking see it.

• 3:02:44Joe Rogan?

  See, you can find it on their Instagram.

• 3:02:46Speaker 02

  It's that one dude.

• 3:02:47Joe Rogan?

  It's the bald dude with the dress. It's the other dude who's the first female admiral. It's the first female admiral. Imagine if you're a woman and you're trying to become an admiral. This motherfucker just jumps the line.

• 3:02:59Speaker 02

  It's like, okay, yeah, cool.

• 3:03:02Joe Rogan?

  Have you seen it? You find it?

• 3:03:03Speaker 02

  That whole thing with like the, it's like the Avengers United.

• 3:03:07Joe Rogan?

  Here it is.

• 3:03:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:03:08Joe Rogan?

  Biden administration declares Trump cabinet picks unqualified. Oh, God.

• 3:03:14Speaker 02

  Yeah. Like, if you just look at that thing and then you look at, like, and when I say things, right? It's just like, you look at this thing and then you do a direct comparison. Like, okay.

• 3:03:24Joe Rogan?

  You know who scares the fuck out of me?

• 3:03:25Speaker 02

  Who?

• 3:03:26Joe Rogan?

  That new borders are.

• 3:03:27Speaker 02

  Oh dude, he's a bad motherfucker.

• 3:03:29Joe Rogan?

  He scares me. He scares me. I imagine myself with a backpack, sneaking across the Rio Grande. That fucking guy's there.

• 3:03:35Speaker 02

  No.

• 3:03:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:03:37Speaker 02

  Like, what did he say? He was like, ah.

• 3:03:39Joe Rogan?

  About families? Is there any way to not separate families? Yes. You deport them together.

• 3:03:44Speaker 02

  Deport them all. You know what it reminded me of? You remember that, um...

• 3:03:49Joe Rogan?

  It's just like, he said, and I was like, whoa. Well, this is getting dark.

• 3:03:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:03:54Joe Rogan?

  See, I'm like a bleeding heart. Like, I want people from another country that are poor to make their way here and make a better life. I want that. I just want to be scanned. I want to know who the fuck is coming over.

• 3:04:04Speaker 02

  Right.

• 3:04:05Joe Rogan?

  I want to make sure they're not cartel members. I want to make sure they're not terrorists. But I'm all for people that want a better life, because I would do it. It'd be, I'd be a complete total hypocrite if I said I lived in Guatemala in some village and there's no power. And I found out that I could walk to America. And if I did it, it'd take three days. And then I can get a job in the fields. And then I make way more money. I could send money home and everybody could have clean water. I'd fucking do it. You would do it? We'd all do it. So I get.

• 3:04:28Speaker 02

  We'd all do it.

• 3:04:29Joe Rogan?

  That's so, part of me is like, man, I don't want to send anybody back. But the other part of me is like, what about terrorists? Like, what about, what about checking for cartel members? What about the fentanyl that's coming through? Like, you can't have an open border.

• 3:04:42Speaker 02

  I, I believe in it, like, I believe in a meritocracy, right? It's like, may the best idea prevail, may the hardest workers prevail. The problem is, is when we export all of our manufacturing to China, when we have a, like, South American, we have a border crisis. Yeah, yeah, obviously, I'm a coffee guy, so I think about coffee all the time. And I think about Nicaragua, El Salvador, and like, all of the South American, Central American countries that grow coffee. And I talk to farmers, and all we have to pay them is five or 10 cents more a pound, depending on the coffee. And most of the time, when I'm talking about coffees, I'm like, yeah, no problem, 10 cents more, who cares?

• 3:05:22Speaker 02

  What that allows them to do is build schools, pay a livable wage, all the things that they need to do to be successful in Guatemala, Nicaragua, wherever they're going, wherever we're talking about. So I think about this, like, okay, so we're exporting these manufacturing jobs to China. And if we're just concentrating on economic policies in this hemisphere, where from a national security perspective, if we're exporting jobs to South America, we're creating economic opportunity and mobility in South America and Central America, we're creating jobs, economic stability, generational wealth,

• 3:06:07Speaker 02

  and we're also solving one of the issues that we're having, which is a border price, a border crisis. It just doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me to say, hey, we want to export. And I know this started with the Nixon administration. And you know, you have essentially slave labor, which I'm 110% against, which I don't think in any way, shape or form, we should support economically. So if we're to export and look at this from a manufacturing and industry perspective from this hemisphere. How do we align ourselves around strategic stability? How do we protect against our border crisis? How do we still import? Because I mean, I know Americans love their cheap goods, like they love their shit. You know what I mean?

• 3:06:53Speaker 02

  They still want to have this decreased labor cost. I think investing in South and Central America is just not a bad thing. If we're not going to invest in America because of the cost, then we have to invest in this hemisphere.

• 3:07:08Joe Rogan?

  Well, it makes sense that if you want to make the world a better place and you want less people trying to sneak into our country. One of the best ways to make their country better.

• 3:07:16Speaker 02

  Right.

• 3:07:17Joe Rogan?

  But we got to do it ethically. The crazy thing, and this is we've beaten this horse a thousand times, is that everybody has a phone and everybody's phone is made by slaves.

• 3:07:25Speaker 02

  Right.

• 3:07:26Joe Rogan?

  And if it's not made by slaves, the cobalt that's in it, it's a, there's a real high chance that it came from someone with a fucking stick poking it into the ground and digging it out for you.

• 3:07:36Speaker 02

  Right.

• 3:07:36Joe Rogan?

  And that's everybody. We have to take a hard look at all this stuff. We should be making our phones in America. We should be making our phones in America with American minerals. They're a source for people to get paid a fair labor rate wage. They get health benefits. There's OSHA, people check on things, make sure that regulations are in place. Make sure that people get like, make sure that they're making enough money to make a living, to live, a livable wage. That you, you have to do that in America if you want to do it legally. The only reason to do it somewhere else is so that you can do something legal. Because it's legal there, but it's not legal where you live. It shouldn't be legal to have people working in another country for you for fucking fifteen cents an hour.

• 3:08:18Speaker 02

  No.

• 3:08:18Joe Rogan?

  It's too crazy. It's too crazy that you just, you cross this dirt path and now you're allowed to be a piece of shit. Like, it seems crazy. But if you're doing it the right way and you're paying people well and you're allowing people to like thrive in a place where there was nothing before, yeah. You can, you can give people a pathway to do a lot of different things. Economic success opens up a lot of fucking doors. Especially with education, especially with safety, with schools, with better communities. People have money. There's not so much tension. Yeah, it's good. It's good to have a thriving industry. It's good to have a thriving economy. It's good for everybody. It's just not good for everybody, everybody. There's always gonna be people that suffer in every kind of economy, in every, every kind of situation in the world.

• 3:09:01Joe Rogan?

  There's gonna be people that suffer. And like we were talking about on the way here, like some of it's just luck. There's a lot of luck.

• 3:09:08Speaker 02

  There's a lot of luck.

• 3:09:09Joe Rogan?

  Luck is, luck's a real thing, you know? Good and bad. And it's, there's, you know. That's one of the most important things about having some success in this life, you know, is having the humility to understand that you just got lucky as fuck. You're lucky as fuck if you're alive. Especially you, right? You're lucky as fuck you're alive.

• 3:09:28Speaker 02

  You know how lucky I am is like tenfold order. I got, I got all my fingers and toes. It's, it's, it's so incredible.

• 3:09:36Joe Rogan?

  Incredible business.

• 3:09:38Speaker 02

  I think.

• 3:09:38Joe Rogan?

  Good friend of mine.

• 3:09:39Speaker 02

  God, man. Like, it's so incredible when you think about like the birthplace lottery of, of hitting the jackpot. Like, holy shit.

• 3:09:48Joe Rogan?

  I think in this time too.

• 3:09:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:09:50Joe Rogan?

  I think we're so lucky in this time. I think I'm particularly lucky because I grew up before the internet was at all. Like, how old are you?

• 3:09:57Speaker 02

  Forty-seven.

• 3:09:58Joe Rogan?

  So I'm ten years older than you. So when I was like thirty, no, I think I was twenty-seven when the internet became like a normal thing to have in your house. And you had to dial up.

• 3:10:10Joe Rogan?

  And you turn on America Got Mail, or You Got Mail?

• 3:10:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:10:13Joe Rogan?

  You've got mail on AOL. So, from that point on, the fucking world changed so wildly and so quickly that we weren't even really noticing it while it was changing. And now here we are. Here we are in 2024 where it seems like the most chaotic, the most weird. Trump just won again. Somehow or another, I helped him. Like, all this fucking crazy. Like, this is the wildest timeline ever.

• 3:10:42Speaker 02

  This is the most, we're talking about, this is the most optimistic.

• 3:10:45Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:10:45Speaker 02

  I've been in, in our country.

• 3:10:49Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:10:49Speaker 02

  This is the most optimistic I've been in my adult life.

• 3:10:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, the moment that he won like that in a landslide, I was like, maybe they don't have such a grasp. And maybe this will open up the door to making things more rational and balanced. And we could stop a lot of this fucking awful corruption that's just intertwined, like the mycelium that's under the soil.

• 3:11:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:11:12Joe Rogan?

  The corruption is just intertwined, and a lot of it's legal corruption.

• 3:11:15Speaker 02

  Dude, it's, it's insane. When you think about, yeah, obviously, I'm super interested in the military industrial complex, but when you think about, you know, we had, we'll say, 50, 60 military industrial contractors at the start of 9/11, and then now we're down to five. And we think of $860 billion of annual debt associated with the defense budget, which has gone up since our height in the world on terror, or the war on terror. And we have five guy, or five big companies that are basically taking 50% of that 860,

• 3:11:59Speaker 02

  and then 50% of that is profit.

• 3:12:04Speaker 02

  And how is it, how is it happening? When you think of this triangular effect between the military industrial complex and, okay, you have the revolving door between the Pentagon. So every star that comes out of the Pentagon goes back into the military industrial complex with X amount of years of disassociation, blah, blah, blah. It's okay. Then you go back in the military industrial complex. So you go into like Lockheed, Raytheon, one of the top five. Then you have congressmen and senators that are making decisions specifically related to the budget in the military, the defense budget. They're lobbying to increase defense spending, but then they also have factories that are

• 3:12:49Speaker 02

  related to like the F-35 or some big military contract where they're making 40, 30, 40, 50% in profit. So they're the guys that are lobbying to increase the defense budget. Their campaigns are being paid for by the military industrial complex. They're directly increasing the military budget. It's, it's a self-licking ice cream cone. It's insane. It's completely insane. And the fact that we don't have any strict firewalls and separation from ethics and, and I'm, I'm not against people creating jobs in their state. That's not what I'm saying.

• 3:13:33Speaker 02

  Saying the fact that there are not strict firewalls between the fact that you're going to directly profit and/or your campaigns are paid for by the people that you will lobby to go in and increase the taxpayers' liability. I was thinking about this the other day. I was like, if, if the taxpayer had an itemized...

• 3:13:56Speaker 02

  Look at where their taxes go. They just like came out annually or once a month or whatever it is. And they looked at what they were paying for. I'm pretty sure they might have a more vested interest into how much they're paying, what they're paying for and saying, you know what, maybe we shouldn't be asleep at the wheel. Maybe we should probably pay a little bit more pay, more attention to this.

• 3:14:18Joe Rogan?

  Isn't that amazing that you don't get an itemized list, but you're required to give an extraordinary percentage of your money to the government? Like, what is the tax bracket of someone who makes a million dollars a year? What is that?

• 3:14:30Speaker 02

  Forty percent.

• 3:14:31Joe Rogan?

  Forty percent?

• 3:14:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, forty-three percent, probably.

• 3:14:33Joe Rogan?

  Okay, let's imagine you're paying forty percent in income taxes. Then, if you live in California, you pay another fourteen point four, I think it is, something like that? And then I think it's another one percent if you live in the city of Los Angeles.

• 3:14:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:14:48Joe Rogan?

  So now, you're down to thirty, what, thirty-four percent? What do you get there? Somewhere in the high thirties? So then, you have sales tax on everything you buy, you have property tax, you have insurance, you have whatever your house costs. You don't have a lot of money left over. And the government doesn't even have to tell you what they're spending it on. Like, you probably get less than they do. If you really think about it, if they get forty percent, and let's just say you don't have tax shelters and all that good stuff. But if you get, if you pay forty percent in income taxes, and then, after all the shit, like, after all, property tax and state tax and this tax and sales tax, like, what do you have?

• 3:15:33Joe Rogan?

  How much did you get? What did you get? Well, how much did you, how much money did you actually get? Like, I bet the government got more than you got, bitch.

• 3:15:41Speaker 02

  Seventy percent of your time at work is, is working for the Fed.

• 3:15:45Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. That is so bananas that you don't even get an itemized list of what they spend it on.

• 3:15:50Speaker 02

  I have to file my audited financials, right? I think about this all the time.

• 3:15:56Speaker 02

  I have to. It's a requirement. I have to pass them.

• 3:15:59Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 3:16:00Speaker 02

  The Pentagon hasn't hasn't passed an audit in decades. They have like 60%, we'll just say 50% of the Pentagon's expenses. They're like, I don't know. I don't know where it went. Sorry. Shit out of luck, taxpayers. So how is it, it's this rules, rules for thee, not for me? That's the rule.

• 3:16:21Joe Rogan?

  Always miss their audits? How bad, how many times they miss their audits?

• 3:16:27Joe Rogan?

  The Pentagon.

• 3:16:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, Pentagon.

• 3:16:29Joe Rogan?

  How many times?

• 3:16:33Joe Rogan?

  I think it's like, it's crazy numbers too, like whoopsies.

• 3:16:36Speaker 02

  Oops. I just forgot about that $300 billion.

• 3:16:40Speaker 03

  Article 12021 says they've never passed an audit.

• 3:16:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, there we go. There we go. There we go. So it's rules, it's rules for thee, not for me. They've never passed an audit.

• 3:16:50Joe Rogan?

  There's never?

• 3:16:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:16:51Joe Rogan?

  Come on, never?

• 3:16:53Speaker 02

  Never.

• 3:16:54Joe Rogan?

  Never?

• 3:16:57Joe Rogan?

  Pentagon's accounting records are so convoluted that billions of dollars cannot be accounted for, charges a new government report. Oh my God. Oh my God. That is so crazy. Never?

• 3:17:09Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, and, and you'll go to jail if you don't pay these. You'll go to jail if you're not paying your taxes. You haven't survived an audit.

• 3:17:18Joe Rogan?

  Funny. That's so funny. Despite having trillions of dollars in assets and receiving hundreds of billions in federal dollars annually, the department has never detailed its assets and liabilities in a given year. For the past three financial years, the Defense Department's audit has resulted in a disclaimer of opinion, meaning the auditor didn't get enough accounting records to form an assessment. Like, sorry, we don't have any paperwork.

• 3:17:44Joe Rogan?

  Where'd the money go? I forgot. Gotta go.

• 3:17:47Speaker 02

  I'm just a, I'm just a military guy.

• 3:17:50Joe Rogan?

  We are just trying to keep America safe.

• 3:17:53Speaker 02

  Yeah. Like, that's what it is, man.

• 3:17:55Joe Rogan?

  What if all of it's going to UFOs? What if it's all of it's going to UFOs? What if all of it's going to some propulsion research thing that they're doing? They got UFOs, they're just not telling us. What are they spending it on? How much of it is getting greased into the side pockets of people?

• 3:18:11Speaker 02

  But even then, from a transparency perspective, does it not shake out for us? Because if we're saying, hey, we're gonna spend, I don't know, let's just call it a hundred billion dollars on like, black fund experimental technology to maintain our strategic hegemony.

• 3:18:28Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. I like how you wrote and said it like that. That's not official.

• 3:18:32Speaker 02

  Do you think that we would all be like, no? I mean, it's better than not passing a fucking audit where you're like, ah, I don't know where it goes, man.

• 3:18:40Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I'd rather you tell me that you can't tell me than tell me you don't know.

• 3:18:43Speaker 02

  Right.

• 3:18:43Joe Rogan?

  Tell me you can't tell me.

• 3:18:44Speaker 02

  Tell me you can't tell me.

• 3:18:45Joe Rogan?

  Despite costing more than 1.7 trillion in its estimated life cycle, attempts to audit the program have run into major hurdles. Oh, the F-35. So this is just the F-35?

• 3:18:57Speaker 02

  The F-35 is just-

• 3:18:58Speaker 03

  That could hide some propulsion money.

• 3:18:59Joe Rogan?

  It could. 1.7 trillion, it probably-

• 3:19:02Speaker 03

  Just for one program.

• 3:19:02Joe Rogan?

  I'm sure. Look, if Area 51 exists, and now we know it does for sure, it was a real base. They said it wasn't a base forever, and then during the Obama administration, they had to expand the boundaries. Because surveillance equipment and binoculars and telescopes are getting better and more sophisticated, and they were filming things that were flying around that shouldn't have been filming. So they expanded the boundaries. They had to say that Area 51 existed.

• 3:19:25Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 3:19:26Joe Rogan?

  So what was that? Where'd you get the money? What'd you do? What are you doing down there? Why do people say you have UFOs? What the fuck are you doing? Why do you have a base in the middle of fucking nowhere that's built into the side of a mountain? Like, why are you guys acting like this is an Avengers movie? What are you doing out here?

• 3:19:44Speaker 02

  Once again, it goes back to just transparency.

• 3:19:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, or you can't tell me. Because you think I'm a fucking baby, like the same reason why you think I can't have mushrooms.

• 3:19:51Speaker 02

  The same reason why we can't have full disclosure of the JFK assassination, right? There's 4,000 documents. We even, have we talked about the JFK assassination on this thing yet?

• 3:20:00Joe Rogan?

  I think we have.

• 3:20:01Speaker 02

  Have we, like, gone down the rabbit hole?

• 3:20:03Joe Rogan?

  I went down the rabbit hole with multiple people, including Oliver Stone.

• 3:20:06Speaker 02

  Have you heard my theory?

• 3:20:06Joe Rogan?

  No, maybe not. I don't know. What's your theory?

• 3:20:09Speaker 02

  So my theory is, like- It all goes back to the Bay of Pigs. It's all Bay of Pigs. It's all Cuba. It's all Bay of Pigs. And so I'm looking at it from a paramilitary CIA perspective. And thinking about it from Alan Dulles, which obviously like he's in charge of the Warren Commission after Kennedy fired him. So I'm giving everybody a kind of a summary. Dulles Airport? Explanation. Yeah, Dulles Airport, which is the Dulles Brothers, the single most powerful fucking people in Washington, even during the Truman administration. But either way, so.

• 3:20:43Speaker 02

  What happened, I think, was so Operation Zapata, which is also George H. W. Bush's first oil company that he supposedly left fucking Connecticut and went out after his Yale, you know, his Yale tenure after World War Two was like, I'm gonna be an oil guy. And start fucking Zapata Oil. Yeah, of course, right? Even though his dad's best friend with Alan Dulles. Sure. Anyway, so.

• 3:21:11Speaker 02

  So.

• 3:21:13Speaker 02

  Operation Zapata, which it turns into the Bay of Pigs. And Kennedy gets read in on this. He says, yes, let's go. And then when it comes down to the day, like, I mean, you've built uh, 1,400, let's say, you know, 12, 1300 man force that's a CIA former Cuban exile army.

• 3:21:40Speaker 02

  You've built it and Alan Dulles has been the main architecture. He's been the main architect behind this. You've got all these guys. So let's even go back. These are all OSS, World War Two, World War Two guys that let's, let's create a clear delineation between what they're doing and what they, what they think the president is doing. The president's like, yeah, yeah, he's elected. Fuck that guy. We're the agency. Like, that's the way Alan Dulles actually ran things. He wouldn't, half the time, he wouldn't even brief the president on what he was doing. So he puts together this thing, clears it through Eisenhower. Eisenhower says, yes, let's go take those fucking, you know, Cuban commies out.

• 3:22:23Speaker 02

  They put together a 1,100 man force. They've been training on this. They've got secret bases in Guatemala. They've got all these paramilitary CIA guys. They're ready to take the beach. They're expecting air support because without air support, that changes the entire tactical equation. Like, if you don't have air support, there's a lot of things you just don't fucking do. Period. So, the morning of, Kennedy denies air support for the Bay of Pigs. So, the morning of. So, these dudes are taking the beach. These are hardcore, like CIA-trained, paramilitary guys, Cuban exiles,

• 3:23:08Speaker 02

  and WWII hardcore regime change combat veteran. Like, these are the hardest motherfuckers on the planet that we have. He pulls air support. He left 1,100 guys on the beach to die, basically. These guys all get rolled up. So, they lost about 60 guys. 2406 is the name of the brigade. 60 guys died. 1,000-plus got put in Cuban prisons. Now you got an ax grind. You just pissed off the entire CIA, paramilitary organization. I don't know if I'm the president.

• 3:23:52Speaker 02

  I don't know how I don't end up with a moonroof, to be honest with you. Like, I just pissed off the guys that are actually in charge of assassination, paramilitary, all of the dirty deeds around the planet. I fire Allen Dulles for this catastrophe of the Bay of Pigs. I've got 1,000-plus guys that are in prison in Cuba. I've got the entire former OSS hardcore, anti-communist, anti-Castro organization of the CIA pissed off.

• 3:24:27Speaker 02

  If you don't think they're not gonna tee a guy up like some pro, you know, commie Oswald guy in a, you know, in a

• 3:24:38Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:24:39Speaker 02

  multi-story building in Dallas, if you don't think you're gonna end up with a hole in your head, you're crazy, to be honest with you. That's the way I'm looking at this. So they end up getting these guys out, but man, he pissed off a lot of super capable guy, means opportunity intent. Means opportunity intent, which is now you left me and my buddies on a beach in Cuba.

• 3:25:03Speaker 02

  Bro, you are not gonna get out of here unscathed. I'm just

• 3:25:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:25:08Speaker 02

  That's my theory.

• 3:25:09Joe Rogan?

  I think that along with all the other stuff means there was probably a bunch of people that did not want him around.

• 3:25:19Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:25:20Joe Rogan?

  He wanted to get rid of the CIA.

• 3:25:22Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 3:25:22Joe Rogan?

  He, he had his eyes on the Federal Reserve. There was a lot of crazy talk about secret societies and, you know, you've seen that speech about secret societies.

• 3:25:31Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:25:32Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. And there was, he's a real threat. And as soon as you can get those killers to want him out too, well, now you got a problem solved.

• 3:25:40Speaker 02

  Well, you had a bunch of guys that thought he was soft on Q, he, he was soft on Russia. They had a bunch of dirt on him because he was, he was banging a bunch of chicks. All of which, okay, well, you know, maybe it's true, maybe it's false. I don't fucking know, but I'm, I think it's fairly validated at this point.

• 3:25:57Joe Rogan?

  I think it's pretty true.

• 3:25:58Speaker 02

  And you've got a, you have a, a, a collection of people that are, are thinking this is a zero sum game. This is a cold war. If you're weak on Russia and you think that the guy's gonna bend his, you know, he's gonna bend a knee to the bear.

• 3:26:21Speaker 02

  You've got a lot of, you, you gotta, you've got this confluence of interests where

• 3:26:28Speaker 02

  It's inevitable.

• 3:26:30Joe Rogan?

  And he was also not universally loved. We think of him as being universally loved because he's dead.

• 3:26:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:26:35Joe Rogan?

  But when he was alive, like, there's a lot of people that were not fans of his in the red states. Probably particularly Dallas, he's driving through Dallas.

• 3:26:45Speaker 02

  He had LBJ that's from...

• 3:26:48Joe Rogan?

  What's amazing about it really is how sloppy the whole...

• 3:26:52Speaker 02

  Sloppy as shit.

• 3:26:54Joe Rogan?

  The whole thing, from autopsy to the fucking magic bullet laying on the gurney to having to come up with the magic bullet theory because of the ricochet in the underpass. Like, the whole thing is so clunky. It's like such a shitty explanation. You couldn't kill one extra guy and say there was another guy over here, we killed him too?

• 3:27:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:27:13Joe Rogan?

  You guys are... This is such a shit job, you guys. You don't have one other idiot that you can get out there, one other idiot, give him a bad rifle and just fucking shoot him?

• 3:27:20Speaker 02

  But they don't have any... They don't have the context of what we have, which is social media.

• 3:27:27Joe Rogan?

  Right, of course.

• 3:27:28Speaker 02

  You know, I mean, when did the Zapruder film?

• 3:27:30Joe Rogan?

  It was like 12 years later.

• 3:27:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:27:32Joe Rogan?

  And it was on the Geraldo Rivera Show.

• 3:27:34Speaker 02

  Which is completely insane.

• 3:27:36Joe Rogan?

  Dick Gregory, who is a stand-up comedian, brought it on the Geraldo Rivera Show.

• 3:27:41Speaker 02

  Are you serious? I didn't know that.

• 3:27:43Joe Rogan?

  Dick Gregory, who is a stand-up... He was a lot more than that too. He was an activist, but like a real one. You know, not in any way some sort of a social value grifter, which I think a lot of people like gravitate towards activism because it gives them a chance to be really shitty because they're right. He was a brilliant guy. But he was also a guy who like was a truth seeker back when it was really hard to get to the truth. And this guy had to acquire a copy of the Zapruder film when In Time Life got a hold of it, apparently like right after the assassination. And they just kept it.

• 3:28:15Speaker 02

  They just kept it.

• 3:28:16Joe Rogan?

  They just kept it. And when you watch it, you realize why they kept it. Because you see his head go back into the left. And it looks like he does get shot in the neck from the front. He holds his fucking neck like this. He doesn't hold it back with him.

• 3:28:28Speaker 02

  No, no.

• 3:28:28Joe Rogan?

  He holds his neck like this. Like, that's impact. That's where it hit him. And then his fucking head goes back into the left. And we're supposed to think that this fucking guy did all this for me. The school depository. Maybe he did take a shot or two from the schoolbook depository. I, I don't think he was innocent. I'm not of the camp like it's a binary thing. Like is either Lee Harvey, Lee Harvey Oswald was a patsy and the CIA killed him or Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. That's a stupid way to think. I think for sure they used him. They, they probably gave him a rifle. He might've been in that window. He might've just been in the building. He might've been in the area. Who knows? I think he probably did shoot that cop. Like when they were chasing after him, it seems like he did kill that cop. I think he was an asset. But I also think there was a bunch of people shooting at the president. And if you look at that area, you've been to Dealey, you've been there, right?

• 3:29:13Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's a weird, it's a weird treat to drive down, right? It feels weird. It's like, oh shit, this is where, it's a lot smaller than I thought it was.

• 3:29:19Speaker 02

  It's tiny.

• 3:29:20Joe Rogan?

  It's really little. Like when people say he couldn't have made those shots, like shut the fuck up.

• 3:29:24Speaker 02

  He's right there. He's like right up, like literally you look up in the buildings right there.

• 3:29:28Joe Rogan?

  He had a scope. At least he had a scope. That's what's crazy about the kid that tried to kill the president, but tried to kill Trump. He didn't even, he had iron tights.

• 3:29:36Speaker 02

  Which is insane.

• 3:29:37Joe Rogan?

  But it's not if you just go in center mass, but this dude's doing it for a headshot, 140 yards. And he's probably never shot anybody before. He's a 20-year-old kid that they just somehow or another Operation MKUltra mind fucked him into shooting at him, or he's on some crazy medication, or China, or who knows? Who knows what they did? There's a chip in his head, who knows? Who knows what the fuck happened, but you know?

• 3:30:01Speaker 02

  And then some mobster, some like happenstance mobster is so passionate about Kennedy, he's like, I'm gonna kill.

• 3:30:09Joe Rogan?

  I'm gonna shoot Lee Harvey, and people are letting him in with the pistol. Bang! It's so dumb.

• 3:30:14Speaker 02

  Dude, it's, it's.

• 3:30:16Joe Rogan?

  Then you know what happens to him, right?

• 3:30:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, he dies of cancer, like hardcore.

• 3:30:20Joe Rogan?

  Before that, before that.

• 3:30:20Speaker 02

  No, huh?

• 3:30:21Joe Rogan?

  Jolly West visits him in jail and he goes crazy. Jolly West, who's the head of MKUltra.

• 3:30:26Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 3:30:27Joe Rogan?

  Jolly West, who's the guy who got Charles Manson in the acid allegedly, from the book Chaos, he goes into it. Jolly West went to visit Lee Harvey Oswald, or excuse me, Jack Ruby. And Jack Ruby's on the, the ground underneath his bunk crying in the fetal position that they're, they're murdering the Jews with fire and he's tripping balls. This guy dosed him up with acid, blew his fucking brains out, and then they probably injected him with cancer.

• 3:30:50Speaker 02

  Hundred percent.

• 3:30:51Joe Rogan?

  See you later, fuckface.

• 3:30:53Speaker 02

  I think you have this.

• 3:30:57Speaker 02

  Outside, so if we want to go all the way back and you want to just know my like

• 3:31:01Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:31:02Speaker 02

  Two cents on this?

• 3:31:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 3:31:03Speaker 02

  Okay, so Dulles knows that eventually the president is gonna like, they're gonna snuff him out, they're gonna fire him.

• 3:31:11Speaker 02

  Dulles decides that he's gonna have this whole separate CIA, that's CIA guys, but they're all really very trusted in, in, in internal, external guys. And I think those guys are essentially his guys.

• 3:31:34Speaker 02

  And they get hung out to dry in the Bay of Pigs. They're not attributable to the CIA other than loose affiliated documents. I think Dulles gets fired and they're like, okay, let's go. Let's, like, Alan Dulles didn't want to be answering to the president because he didn't answer to the people. He was answering to a bigger call in his mind. He's answering to, this is an imminent threat. The big communist bear is gonna come and eat our lunch. So he's answering to the greater good, which is a reason for like, the backdrop of the Cold War is a reason for a lot of this nefarious activity.

• 3:32:17Speaker 02

  Like Angleton, like all these directors, everybody looks at these guys as like really nefarious characters. But you have to paint everything in the backdrop of the, the Cold War. Like, we're doing all this stuff to save America, right? And I'm not validating them, I'm just telling them, they have-

• 3:32:37Joe Rogan?

  We have to understand that perspective.

• 3:32:39Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 3:32:39Joe Rogan?

  Cause that was a big thing even when I was in high school.

• 3:32:41Speaker 02

  This is the Cold War, they're going to fucking kill us all.

• 3:32:44Joe Rogan?

  They're gonna nuke us.

• 3:32:44Speaker 02

  They're gonna nuke us.

• 3:32:45Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:32:45Speaker 02

  So we will do, it's very Machiavellian, the means justify the ends.

• 3:32:50Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 3:32:50Speaker 02

  Anything and everything to save the nation at any point in time. So you have guys that are baptized in extreme patriotism and their belief is that they are doing things for the best of the nation. And that if they have an elected official, they can't be trusted.

• 3:33:12Speaker 02

  They can't be trusted. And they're, these are guys that are, and you know, I went out to Omaha in, in, uh, for the 80th. These are, it's so interesting for me to think back on this because these are guys that are World War II vets that, that like, they saw everybody die. You know, I mean, the, the Soviets lost tens of millions of guys in World War II. They were defeating fascism, which is, you know, they were defeating the Nazi party, you know, the Japanese army. And they've seen thousands of men die. And they're serious guys. They're not, they're not lighthearted, they're not full of love.

• 3:33:56Speaker 02

  Like, these are guys that are baptized in ultra-violence to the point of which this is a zero-sum game. And we have everything to lose and nothing to gain by being nice. And nobody will get in our way to being able to maintain the sovereignty of the nation. Once again, I'm not justifying it. I can just get into the mind of them because if I'm jumping into Nazi occupied France in, you know, 1940 X, because a lot of the OSS teams went in there. And I'm get, watching my friends get fucking mowed down by Nazi machine guns. And I'm killing Nazis and I'm moving my way to overthrow Hitler.

• 3:34:38Speaker 02

  And now I feel like Stalin is the next thing that I have to defeat. But the American public just doesn't understand.

• 3:34:48Speaker 02

  I'm like, I'm 1945, man. I've, I have been quite literally baptized in blood and I'm not going to let it happen. Now, you think about a high intellect, type A driven ultra-violent guy that may be, um, semi-coherent based on their, their copious consumption of alcohol.

• 3:35:10Joe Rogan?

  Probably, right?

• 3:35:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:35:11Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:35:12Speaker 02

  Okay, well, old, you know, um,

• 3:35:16Speaker 02

  A lot of these programs start to make sense because these guys are like, they're fucking serious guys and they think that we're gonna die in a nuclear holocaust.

• 3:35:25Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 3:35:25Speaker 02

  And everything, the means justifies the ends. They're very Machiavellian. I don't necessarily, once again, I'm not trying to say that like every evil deed is justified. I'm just saying like, I've seen the beaches of Normandy. I understand greater than a lot of, a lot of people would combat and the direct psychological and emotional effects, what it'll do to people. And I can, I can kinda see myself going like, hey man, if I'm a 26-year-old guy that just went and fought the Nazis and I think that the, the big bad bear is coming after me.

• 3:35:57Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 3:35:57Speaker 02

  Man, you're a pretty serious character.

• 3:36:00Joe Rogan?

  That, that feeling of the big bad bear coming after us got lifted with the fall of the Berlin Wall, with the fall of the Soviet Union. All that stuff went away. The fear. When I was a kid, that fear was everywhere. You know, I've talked to so many people that are like my age or around my age that remember being a child and being worried about a war with nuclear bombs with Russia. It was constant. It was in the air. When Khrushchev banged his shoe on the, the table and said, "We will bury you." I watched that video on YouTube just like a month ago and it's still scary. The two fucking banging his shoe. And when he said, "We will bury you."

• 3:36:42Joe Rogan?

  Was that a direct quote or was that propaganda? Let me, that one feels fishy. I bet that's one where it's like a little bit

• 3:36:49Speaker 02

  Well, that, I think that was-

• 3:36:50Joe Rogan?

  more slippery than "we will bury you" because you know what I mean? Like when you're getting your translations.

• 3:36:54Speaker 02

  That was a direct response to when we agreed, we, we have this mutual agreement between the Soviets and Khrushchev wasn't, like, Khrushchev wasn't actually-

• 3:37:06Speaker 02

  A Stalinist. He was making very big reforms in the Soviet Union. And so he felt betrayed by the U-2 spy missions that were taking place when we, after, you know, after they shot down the U-2 spy plane in Russia. And because we lied, he was like, bang, bang, bang. And I'm fairly certain that's what that whole thing was about because I think Khrushchev was a man of honor. Oh, I see. These fucking guys are lying to me. Oh. And, I mean Stalin was a shitbag. Don't like, I'm like, but Khrushchev was like making significant reforms

• 3:37:47Speaker 02

  within the country. He was an anti, he was broadly condemned by a lot of the old, the Stalinists as...

• 3:37:56Joe Rogan?

  Here it is.

• 3:37:58Speaker 03

  I think, I don't see him banging a shoe in the video. He's banging his hand.

• 3:38:01Speaker 02

  Oh, he's banging his fist, yeah.

• 3:38:01Joe Rogan?

  I thought he banged his shoe.

• 3:38:03Speaker 03

  The video says, did he bang his shoe?

• 3:38:17Joe Rogan?

  That's a scary language when they're yelling it.

• 3:38:19Speaker 02

  I know.

• 3:38:22Speaker 02

  Put that under a couple pints of vodka.

• 3:38:25Joe Rogan?

  Someone was saying this, but it's so true. There's nothing scarier than Russian Muslims. Like the fighters.

• 3:38:31Speaker 02

  Tchatchya.

• 3:38:31Joe Rogan?

  Fucking bad motherfuckers. Fighters, Russian Muslims are the fucking scariest fighters, dude. I think if there's like one group that I would categorize, like what's the scariest? It might be Russian Muslims.

• 3:38:42Speaker 03

  From the CIA's website?

• 3:38:44Joe Rogan?

  "We will bury you" threat widely attributed to Khrushchev in Western press was reported to have been made at a send-off reception to Poland's Gomukha in Moscow, November 1956. According to Time Magazine, Khrushchev was overheard to say at the final reception for the Polish leader, "If you don't like us, don't accept our invitations and don't invite us to come to see you. Whether you like it or not, history is on our side. We will bury you." So he said that to Poland.

• 3:39:16Joe Rogan?

  But that was a, wasn't that in a police song or a Sting song? The Russians Love Their Children Too? Wasn't that?

• 3:39:24Speaker 02

  Scorpions?

• 3:39:25Joe Rogan?

  No, no, no, no, no, no. I think it was a Sting song.

• 3:39:27Speaker 02

  Really?

• 3:39:28Speaker 03

  Sting's song called The Russians.

• 3:39:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:39:30Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 3:39:32Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it was saying Khrushchev said he will bury you. So, they probably, it was probably some fake news, just like how they said about Trump saying the very fine people on both sides.

• 3:39:41Speaker 02

  It's always been, it's been fascinating to me because I think about the Russians and how many tens of millions of people they lost in World War II.

• 3:39:49Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:39:49Speaker 02

  And I think about

• 3:39:52Speaker 02

  very empathetically how they got fucked. They really did. You know, I think, and I'm not saying we, we did anything bad, I'm just saying like, what we did was we delayed the invasion of Normandy and we felt like, a lot of people think this, was that we were trying to soften up the Soviet Union because we felt that they were a follow-on threat in World War II. But

• 3:40:20Speaker 02

  we, we delayed the invasion intentionally, essentially, to let you know, a lot of Russians, millions of Russians essentially die on the eastern front. And

• 3:40:33Speaker 02

  when, when you really think about it, when, you know, from, you know, those men, from my context in, in, you know, combat, from uh, how I think about combat, how I think about death, like, those guys had a significant axa grind, because they're like, "We need fucking help, we need you to open up the western front." I'm not validating Stalin, because, once again, I think he's a complete piece of shit.

• 3:40:59Joe Rogan?

  I know what you're saying.

• 3:41:00Speaker 02

  But

• 3:41:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:41:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, is a Russian

• 3:41:03Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 3:41:04Speaker 02

  Population knowing that we delayed the, opening up the western front to

• 3:41:14Speaker 02

  Go and take over essentially Hitler Nazi Nazi Europe because at that point obviously it wasn't just one person. Yeah, we have a significant amount of mistrust with you guys because we lost, you know, 20 million people plus the civilian population. I mean, some estimates of 30 million fucking people and you guys opened up Normandy, came through, and then you're telling everybody that you won. You're the reason you won World War II and you're not even giving us any validated credit. They had invaded Japan before we dropped the bomb and the Japanese were just as terrified of the Russians as they were

• 3:41:59Speaker 02

  the Americans. However, I can see from the Russian perspective going, man, we sacrificed millions of people to defeat the Nazis and you guys are basically giving us no credit. So I think back like, man, 1945, like where these guys were at because they're all about my same age. We went to combat roughly the same same age. And there were a lot of people that were debating all of these issues back then. 1945, 1946, they were talking about, you know, not only Stalin, but you know, Patton was talking about like, we need to

• 3:42:41Speaker 02

  just keep going, right? Patton was talking about like going, we need to keep going. We need to defeat Soviet Russia. And Eisenhower was like, actually, no, you're crazy. Fuck, dude. I think that's what he said. You know, I think that's what he's like, hey, fuck dude. Like, what are you talking about, Patton? You're crazy, man.

• 3:42:58Joe Rogan?

  That's what he said when he addressed the nation, right? That was right after that.

• 3:43:02Speaker 02

  So I keep thinking about myself and that, like those guys, I think about myself a lot of times too, where, you know, 20 plus years after the fact, like this is 1968. This is 1968, man, from our war. So from 1945 to 1968, give or take, you think about all these GWOT guys that are being appointed. It's kind of a cool revolution, but 68 was a very important year in American history. I think 24 was a really important year in American history.

• 3:43:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. 24 is a big one.

• 3:43:39Joe Rogan?

  The one we're in right now is a big one.

• 3:43:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:43:41Joe Rogan?

  I think when, when people look back at history with these great moments of change, I mean, think about how, you know, people look back at the Reagan administration, like when Reagan got elected, what a landslide. Like they look back at those days, like we look back at like these historical moments. But I think this one is crazier than any of them. This guy gets kicked out, they try to put him in jail multiple times, he gets shot at, he says, fight, fight, fight. He, he, and then he wins. He wins in a landslide when they were all saying that it was a close race. And the, the whole thing is just wild to watch. It's like, this is nuts. Like this, this show's nuts. If you're watching this show on TV, like these writers are fucking amazing. Whatever they're doing, like keep doing this. This show's crazy. There's twists and turns.

• 3:44:26Joe Rogan?

  You got your crazy billionaire character who doesn't even seem real. Doesn't even seem real. This guy's making rockets and electric cars. He's fucking, there's no way. Buys Twitter because he wants to save free speech. What?

• 3:44:37Speaker 02

  It's insane.

• 3:44:38Joe Rogan?

  And the people that used to love him now hate him. The people that are driving their Teslas around, like, god damn it. They're angry, but you still have a lease, you know? You still have your Tesla. You hate Elon, you hate X, and Don Lemon said, I'm leaving X. There's, there's no good discussions to be had here.

• 3:44:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's fucking boo hoo.

• 3:45:00Joe Rogan?

  Oh, you don't like criticism. You don't like criticism. If you want to get into this game, okay? You want to get into the, the online game? The online game's different. And in the online game, you, you get judged by who you fucking actually are, dude. It's not about your producers and your teleprompter and shut up. You're on your own. And if people think you're stupid, you're gonna hear it. And it might be because you're stupid. It might be. Look, people say, a lot of people are stupid that are not stupid. I've seen people say brilliant people, I've seen people say Elon Musk is stupid. I have seen that.

• 3:45:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, I've seen that.

• 3:45:32Joe Rogan?

  I've seen, there's, you're gonna get it, no matter what, you're gonna get it. Everyone's gonna get it.

• 3:45:37Speaker 02

  Everybody's saying you're stupid.

• 3:45:40Joe Rogan?

  Maybe. You might be stupid. You might be stupid. You might have been protected from that stupid by these network shows. If you want to exist online and you don't like criticism on Twitter, or you think there's disinformation on Twitter. Community notes on Twitter is the greatest fucking thing that's ever been created. Because people get to look through the community notes and find out, oh, that is bullshit, and here's why it's bullshit. Or, oh, that actually is true, even though it sounds crazy and people are protesting, it's actually true. That's fun. That's good.

• 3:46:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:46:07Joe Rogan?

  We learned something. If you can't handle that. Well, you can go wherever. Where do you go now? Where do you go? Where do you go, Threads?

• 3:46:15Speaker 02

  What?

• 3:46:15Joe Rogan?

  Do people go to Threads?

• 3:46:16Speaker 02

  Nobody goes to Threads.

• 3:46:17Joe Rogan?

  But they worked for a while.

• 3:46:18Speaker 02

  Are you crazy? Seriously?

• 3:46:19Joe Rogan?

  For a while, yeah. It's not gonna work, I don't think.

• 3:46:21Speaker 02

  No. Have you ever had, I don't know, have you ever had Zuckerberg on?

• 3:46:24Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I like Zuckerberg a lot.

• 3:46:26Speaker 02

  Yeah?

• 3:46:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I like him a lot. I think he's a weird guy, but you have to be a weird guy if you're a super genius. Hundred billionaire who's into jujitsu. He's a weird guy, but he's cool. I like him. I've had fun with him. Yeah, we played a fencing game together with virtual goggles.

• 3:46:40Speaker 02

  What?

• 3:46:40Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. We both put on, he fences.

• 3:46:43Speaker 02

  You got on line when he was like in Hawaii or San Francisco?

• 3:46:46Joe Rogan?

  No, we did it in the same room.

• 3:46:46Speaker 02

  Oh, okay.

• 3:46:47Joe Rogan?

  It was fun.

• 3:46:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:46:48Joe Rogan?

  The new Oculus is fucking cool, and you gotta wonder where that's gonna be, because when I first tried the first, very first Oculus, it was kind of cool, but kind of crude in a way. And with each new version of it, you get like, it's much smaller now. It used to be, we had a cable and the cable was attached to the ceiling on a wire so that you can move back and forth through this, all these wires connected to you when you had the Oculus. So you had to be plugged into the computer, actually. But now you're not. Now it's just on your head. And now it's fucking resolution's pretty goddamn good. It's, and it's weird. Like, you do things, like you can go to a comedy club and you sit in the audience and there's all these other people in there, there's a comedian on stage.

• 3:47:29Joe Rogan?

  It's fucking strange. There's all these little online games you can play with other people, 3D shooters and shit, and you get goggles on, you feel like you're in the game. It's real weird. And most people are kind of freaked out by it, so I don't think it's, like, they went with that whole meta thing. They thought everybody was gonna dive into the metaverse, but I think there's this uncanny valley between like, you put the goggles on and you're in the world and you kind of feel it, you feel uneasy. Like, this is weird. This feels weird. VR feels strange. Like, a lot of people make them dizzy. They want to take it off.

• 3:47:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, my wife is like that.

• 3:48:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, mine is too. But I think they're gonna get to a point where it's not gonna feel weird. Like, there's some commercial applications, like, there's a company called Sandbox, and they have this fucking amazing game called Deadwood Mansion. And in Deadwood Mansion, you go into like, there's a warehouse space, they have one in Austin, they have one in Woodland Hills, where we used to go, it was right down the street from the studio. You put goggles on, and all of a sudden, you're in a mansion, you got a shotgun, and zombies are running at you from everywhere, and you're boom, you're blowing their heads.

• 3:48:30Speaker 02

  Seriously?

• 3:48:30Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah. It's fucking amazing. Dude, no one in my family wants to play it anymore.

• 3:48:36Speaker 02

  Why? Is it too intense?

• 3:48:38Joe Rogan?

  I get very intense.

• 3:48:39Speaker 02

  Oh, fuck yeah.

• 3:48:39Joe Rogan?

  Very intense when I'm killing zombies. They don't like it, they don't think it's gross, it's like, I'm like, come on, let's kill zombies. Like, for Father's Day, I made them come kill zombies with me. I fucking love it.

• 3:48:48Speaker 02

  That was your Father's Day present?

• 3:48:50Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 3:48:50Speaker 02

  You told your parent, yeah, yeah, your family?

• 3:48:52Joe Rogan?

  Daddy wants to kill zombies with everybody.

• 3:48:53Speaker 02

  That's fucking awesome.

• 3:48:54Joe Rogan?

  It's fun. You got a shotgun, and they're running at you, you're blasting their heads off, and you get attacked from behind.

• 3:48:59Speaker 02

  That's fucking awesome.

• 3:49:00Joe Rogan?

  And you have a haptic feedback vest, and you see red when they're attacking you. You see splatters of red in front of your face when they're attacking you, and you're shooting them in the face.

• 3:49:06Speaker 02

  Everybody wants to do that, dude.

• 3:49:08Joe Rogan?

  Oh, it's so fun!

• 3:49:10Speaker 02

  Everybody wants to, I mean, if we were like, oh, we're in a zombie apocalypse, how many dudes do you know that are like, "Oh my god, awesome, awesome."

• 3:49:17Joe Rogan?

  This is gonna be fun. They're so slow.

• 3:49:19Speaker 02

  They're so slow, like, oh.

• 3:49:21Joe Rogan?

  But these ones are pretty fast. The ones in this, some of them run at you. They run at you.

• 3:49:24Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 3:49:25Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:49:25Speaker 02

  It makes it more fun.

• 3:49:26Joe Rogan?

  Remember that movie 28 Days Later, where the zombies were running?

• 3:49:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:49:29Joe Rogan?

  That's the scariest zombie movie, yeah. Running zombies are, that's the, that's the real zombie. The Walking Dead zombies, get the fuck out of here, bitch. You ain't getting me.

• 3:49:37Speaker 02

  So disappointing. Like, the first like, five seasons were great.

• 3:49:41Joe Rogan?

  How are they not all dead?

• 3:49:42Speaker 02

  But...

• 3:49:43Joe Rogan?

  How are not all the zombies dead?

• 3:49:45Speaker 02

  They just keep going. It's just more and more zombies.

• 3:49:48Joe Rogan?

  How's that possible? Kill them all. It's so easy to kill them.

• 3:49:51Speaker 02

  I can't get enough zombie movies.

• 3:49:54Joe Rogan?

  Oh, I love them. I love them.

• 3:49:55Speaker 02

  I love the post-apocalypse zombie movies.

• 3:49:56Joe Rogan?

  You know what I don't like?

• 3:49:57Speaker 02

  What?

• 3:49:58Joe Rogan?

  Daryl using field tips.

• 3:50:00Speaker 02

  So stupid.

• 3:50:01Joe Rogan?

  Why is he using field tips on his crossbow? That drives me crazy. That drives me crazy.

• 3:50:06Speaker 02

  And he's like pulling them out, loading them back up, and you're like, dude, come on, man, like.

• 3:50:11Joe Rogan?

  You're making me angry. You don't lose any fletchings? You don't get any pass-throughs?

• 3:50:16Speaker 02

  No pass-throughs. It's all just like sticking in their heads. Like, what the fuck are you talking about?

• 3:50:21Joe Rogan?

  What the fuck are you talking about? This is the dumbest weapon ever.

• 3:50:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, Daryl.

• 3:50:26Joe Rogan?

  That fucking field tip's gotta go, son. You don't have any broadheads?

• 3:50:29Speaker 02

  You gotta put like a, a, a solid like tri-blade or something on there.

• 3:50:33Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 3:50:34Speaker 02

  Like, get a really good.

• 3:50:36Joe Rogan?

  A Muzzy Tro car. Yeah. That's what you want.

• 3:50:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 3:50:39Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, like a Montec. Those Montec Carbon Steels.

• 3:50:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:50:43Joe Rogan?

  Send it.

• 3:50:44Speaker 02

  What was that one? The Hyde? What was that?

• 3:50:47Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, the Hyde.

• 3:50:48Speaker 02

  God, dude.

• 3:50:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, man. That did a lot of damage. I'm very impressed with that one. Cause that one, uh, I got the 125 grain one, which has the steel ferrule.

• 3:50:57Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 3:50:58Joe Rogan?

  And it, uh, it's got a two-inch cut with the mechanical blade and a three-quarter inch cut with the fixed. So it doesn't make a big hole opening going in.

• 3:51:05Speaker 02

  See, two and three quarters?

• 3:51:06Joe Rogan?

  This is all technical talk, ladies and gentlemen. Yeah, two and three quarters. Um, it's a broadhead for archery. It, it's a, the, when it goes in, that's when the blades open. So the Rage, which I used to use, or the, the T2 now, the Dudley version, that opens up on the way in. So it leaves a big hole all the way in.

• 3:51:22Speaker 02

  Right.

• 3:51:22Joe Rogan?

  But this one opens up inside. So really, you're penetrating with the fixed head and then, once you're passing in, the pressure is what makes the other two blades go. So it really makes a pretty small entry hole, but the exit hole's a crime scene. The exit hole was a crime scene because you're going out with two and three-quarter inches. It's just instant death for the animal. It's like, super ethical. I think when it comes to like the amount of damage they can do, those mechanical, they put animals down so quick. So quick.

• 3:51:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:51:55Joe Rogan?

  There's something to be said for that giant cut that they make inside. It's just so different. Like Cam's, Cam's, he's using a catapult. It's basically a catapult.

• 3:52:04Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 3:52:05Joe Rogan?

  That four-blade carnivore thing?

• 3:52:07Speaker 02

  That's insane. It, it, but Cam changed my life. Like, like he really did. He was like, create a bit, really big hole.

• 3:52:13Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:52:14Speaker 02

  He goes, I don't care what you do, just create a giant hole. And that's because you're, you're going to put the arrow in the right spot. If you create a giant hole, then you're gonna have a great blood trail.

• 3:52:27Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:52:28Speaker 02

  And you're gonna find your animal. He rewrote my entire hunt sequence this year.

• 3:52:34Joe Rogan?

  Cause you were, before that, you were penetration.

• 3:52:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:52:38Joe Rogan?

  Right. Which is another way of looking at it, right? If you're thinking about a cut, a cut that goes through the entire body is a very long cut. And is always lethal if you get them in the vitals.

• 3:52:46Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 3:52:47Joe Rogan?

  But you don't get a blood trail and it does, they don't die as quick.

• 3:52:50Speaker 02

  No.

• 3:52:51Joe Rogan?

  The, the dying is quick thing is, the one in Tahoma last year, that bull died in like, less than 10 seconds. I mean, how many seconds was it?

• 3:52:58Speaker 02

  Seven, if that, maybe five.

• 3:53:00Joe Rogan?

  Ran up to the top of the hill and just fell down.

• 3:53:03Speaker 02

  I've never, I've never seen anything die, I've never seen anything die that fast.

• 3:53:06Joe Rogan?

  And that's those big mechanicals.

• 3:53:08Speaker 02

  Like, and I'm not saying that because, yeah, it's, you know, you're Joe. Like, you're just the dude on the side of the mountain that was shooting the elk, or that I was watching. Like, it fucking died faster than anything I've seen even shot with a rifle. And the, and the chest cavity, right?

• 3:53:24Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 3:53:25Speaker 02

  So, clearly differentiating between like, yeah, a headshot and a chest cavity. I've never seen anything die that fast from an animal. It was dead.

• 3:53:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I think there's something to be said for those giant holes. Because it's just, if, especially if you have a strong bow. So if you have a bow that has a lot of kinetic energy and a lot of speed, and you're shooting a heavy arrow and it's hitting that rib cage, like, there's something for that big cut. It just stops them dead.

• 3:53:49Speaker 02

  Are you at 80?

• 3:53:50Joe Rogan?

  84 with this new bow. Yeah. The new bow's 84. Oh, the new Hoyt is so smooth.

• 3:53:56Speaker 02

  Like, that's...

• 3:53:56Joe Rogan?

  Oh, it's so smooth.

• 3:53:58Speaker 02

  I gotta, so, they just came out yesterday.

• 3:54:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:54:01Speaker 02

  I gotta go, I, I gotta go find the new one.

• 3:54:04Joe Rogan?

  I felt so special. I had one for a couple of months and I had to blur it out when I took pictures.

• 3:54:08Speaker 02

  I know. I felt like such a chump. I was out there at Tahoma. So I just got the old one. It's not a big deal, man.

• 3:54:16Joe Rogan?

  Well, I used to think that when I saw Cam shoot his, I'm like, how can it be better? These are so good. How can they be better? And then you shoot the new one, you're like, god damn it, it's better. It's just super accurate, like so dead in the hand, like the, the way the shot breaks, it's just like, they keep making it smoother, smoother draw cycle, it's faster.

• 3:54:33Speaker 02

  Which, so you're doing 84.

• 3:54:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:54:36Speaker 02

  What are you garmin, what's your, what's your feet per second on it?

• 3:54:40Joe Rogan?

  Oh, it's 293 or 294.

• 3:54:43Speaker 02

  So what are you shooting, 450?

• 3:54:44Joe Rogan?

  475.

• 3:54:45Speaker 02

  475?

• 3:54:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I bumped it up because I went to those 125 grain heads, but my, my bow went from 80 pounds to 84 with the new one and it kind of made up the difference. So the 25 grains, and it was basically the same kind of speed as with the, the last one, which I had a 450 grain arrow. So this like, uh, I think there's probably like a number you shouldn't go below. I don't know what that number is, you know, like grains. Like some people, they'll hunt elk with like a 300 grain arrow and a lot of people are like, don't do that, don't do that. You can get away with it. Because like, well, my daughter shot an elk and it was a pass through and she's got a 50 pound bow. Okay, she got lucky. She got lucky. You need some force to get in there.

• 3:55:25Speaker 02

  Like if you're shooting 500 on an 84, on a, on an 84 pound, 85 pound bow, so let's say you're doing, even if you're doing 270.

• 3:55:34Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 3:55:35Speaker 02

  That's still.

• 3:55:35Joe Rogan?

  Boom.

• 3:55:36Speaker 02

  Massive penetration.

• 3:55:38Joe Rogan?

  Massive kinetic energy, especially if you have carbon arrows.

• 3:55:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:55:42Joe Rogan?

  I love those carbon arrows with the, the victories with the slick outside because you pull them out of target so much easier.

• 3:55:48Speaker 02

  Who's making those?

• 3:55:49Joe Rogan?

  The VAPS, the, uh, what are they called? The TKOs?

• 3:55:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, I love those things.

• 3:55:53Joe Rogan?

  Rip TKOs, that's it.

• 3:55:54Speaker 02

  Rip TKOs, those are great.

• 3:55:56Joe Rogan?

  Their, their coating that they have on it is like, it's so easy to pull out of things.

• 3:56:00Speaker 02

  I got like a Teflon or some shit on it?

• 3:56:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but you gotta think that's, that aids in penetration too, it has to, right?

• 3:56:05Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 3:56:06Joe Rogan?

  I mean, isn't that why guys like the thin diameter? Like Cam shoots those, I don't know if he's doing it now, but he was for a long time. He was shooting those four millimeter arrows.

• 3:56:15Speaker 02

  Right.

• 3:56:15Joe Rogan?

  Those real skinny ones, but.

• 3:56:18Speaker 02

  The 4mm.

• 3:56:19Joe Rogan?

  I like lighted NOX and the 4mm with the lighted NOX make me nervous.

• 3:56:23Speaker 02

  Why?

• 3:56:23Joe Rogan?

  Because NOX breaks sometimes and they're more vulnerable because they got that little light inside of them. Instead of being a big, solid piece of plastic.

• 3:56:30Speaker 02

  Right.

• 3:56:31Joe Rogan?

  You know? Like I always change them before hunts. I always put fresh ones on. I never trust ones that have been sitting around. Never trust ones that are shot already. I'll shoot them a bunch of times like for practice, but they break sometimes. And especially I'm not paying attention, so I might be accidentally touching arrows.

• 3:56:47Speaker 02

  I do the same thing. Like I have fresh arrows for hunting.

• 3:56:49Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:56:49Speaker 02

  But they're the exact same setup.

• 3:56:51Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:56:51Speaker 02

  For practice. So that's why I like, like the Sever or something like that. Because the Sever's, you can pin them.

• 3:56:59Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:56:59Speaker 02

  And then I can just shoot the shit out of those. And then just not, not use the pin.

• 3:57:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. No, that's huge.

• 3:57:07Speaker 02

  That's why I like them because I can shoot the same exact weight and dimensions. And I know the flight characteristics are going to be the exact same. Versus, sometimes when you get those, um...

• 3:57:17Joe Rogan?

  Practice heads?

• 3:57:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're different.

• 3:57:19Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:57:19Speaker 02

  They actually have different, uh, uh, flight characteristics. Because the way that they're put together is not exactly the same. And I believe in the fact that it's like, hey, man, if you got a slight fin on the front and it's a different fin on the back, even though it's only an inch, you still have to be 100% consistent to maintain the same flight characteristics.

• 3:57:38Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's why when guides get real nerdy about like what helix, like what kind of helical you have on the veins. And like what kind of twist you put in your veins. And you have to have the, uh, you know, a single bevel blade that twists for the broadhead in the exact same direction. Don't get a right twist with left veins. Then you'll get all fucked up. But their idea is that you're trying to get the, the broadhead to spin through the animal. That's the whole idea behind the single bevel.

• 3:58:05Speaker 02

  Is that, do you think that's true though?

• 3:58:07Joe Rogan?

  There's something to it. Yeah. There's something to single bevels because of the cut, the way the edge is cut. So for people listening, single bevel means the edge angles in on one side. Double bevel means it comes together as a point. Right? So think of a blade, but a blade with only one side that you can, you know, you see like where the steel is. Is ground down to the edge. The other side doesn't have that. So the idea is that that creates this angle. And that when you're spinning, your arrow is spinning because the helicals of your vein, it goes into the animal's body cavity and the bevel in the broadhead accentuates that spin. And it continues that spin through the body, causing like a whirlwind of trauma inside the animal.

• 3:58:52Joe Rogan?

  And that, you know, it almost effect acts as multiple blades because it's kind of spinning around. It's not just cutting a straight line, it's twisting. But the question is like, how much twist? And is it more effective to have like a four blade thing? Like a four, like a tooth of the arrow, like one that you could, you know, those are-

• 3:59:08Speaker 02

  See, I don't think it's true.

• 3:59:09Joe Rogan?

  You don't think the spin, the bevel spin?

• 3:59:12Speaker 02

  No, I don't think it does.

• 3:59:13Joe Rogan?

  I think it does a little because there's a guy named Lusk Archery and he does these tests on these things. And he actually shoots them into ballistic gel and you could see them spin. So some of them do spin, but the old-

• 3:59:25Speaker 02

  I think it's too complex though, once you, because once you have a rib cage-

• 3:59:29Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 3:59:30Speaker 02

  And let's just say-

• 3:59:31Joe Rogan?

  You go through the ribs and stops it.

• 3:59:32Speaker 02

  Even the consistency of the rib cage. So let's just say perpendicular shop in the, in a perpendicular shop from the rib cage.

• 3:59:38Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 3:59:39Speaker 02

  At forty yards. So we'll just keep all of the variables basically the same. Even then, there's no nicking of the rib. There's no variation of the actual animal skin. There's no slight courting ways, are courting towards, there's no... So ballistic gel, I think there leaves a lot of questions for me. So even though it's twisting in the ballistic gel, because it's consistent. You're shooting it directly perpendicular into a very consistent-

• 4:00:12Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 4:00:12Speaker 02

  Uh, format.

• 4:00:14Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 4:00:14Speaker 02

  And you're getting a consistent result. You're not going to get a consistent result. I just don't believe you're going to get a consistent result through a rib cage.

• 4:00:20Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's the reason why a lot of people like mechanicals. It's one of the things that they say is that the cut is so large when you get into the body cavity that you take out all the other variables.

• 4:00:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:00:30Joe Rogan?

  It's going to do so much more trauma than something that's just a slit blade. That let's say you do hit that rib cage and it does slice and only hit one lung. Because it deflected off of it and it doesn't spin at all and now you lost the animal.

• 4:00:43Speaker 02

  Right.

• 4:00:43Joe Rogan?

  Whereas you get a mechanical, it goes in there, it creates this massive fucking hole. It does all this trauma going through two and three quarter inches of trauma. The odds of that animal surviving are gone. If you get him in the body cavity, they're gone. And I've seen people hit people with really good shots with small broadheads and not do much damage. To the point where the animal runs off, they have a hard time blood trailing it. Even if the animal dies thirty minutes, sixty minutes later, you might have a hard time finding it, especially if you bumped it.

• 4:01:12Speaker 02

  Hundred percent. I've had that exact experience like multiple times.

• 4:01:16Joe Rogan?

  With those little broadheads.

• 4:01:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, man.

• 4:01:17Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 4:01:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. Cam, like I said, he changed the entire.

• 4:01:24Joe Rogan?

  What do you thought about it?

• 4:01:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, because he's like created a big hole.

• 4:01:26Joe Rogan?

  Well, he changed his thought about it too. He was always a fixed blade guy, always.

• 4:01:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:01:31Joe Rogan?

  And then, uh, um, who told him to do that? Oh, Wayne did from, uh, the bow rack. Yeah, Wayne said, you gotta try these carnivores. So just trust me, just try them. It's like, these things are crazy.

• 4:01:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:01:43Joe Rogan?

  It opens up these four blade catapults.

• 4:01:45Speaker 02

  It looks like, it looks like one of those, uh, turkey broadheads.

• 4:01:50Joe Rogan?

  Crazy. And because of the design, it's just like the hides, it opens up from the front.

• 4:01:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:01:55Joe Rogan?

  So once it's inside, then it's doing all its damage. So you don't have to worry about it getting destroyed, going in through rib cages and stuff. As much as you do with other things. Cause it's really just gonna get a little hole going in and then, once it's in, then it's opening. It's kind of a perfect idea. The only thing that's, that people don't like, like Dudley doesn't like, it doesn't leave a big hole in the outside. Like I talked to Dudley about it. He's like, I want extreme trauma. I just want extreme, I want it one big giant cut with all that energy. Just going through the, like, he is, think of it like sticking a samurai sword.

• 4:02:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:02:28Joe Rogan?

  Like through the, the animal's body.

• 4:02:30Speaker 02

  Right.

• 4:02:31Joe Rogan?

  And, you know, obviously he's one of the best bow hunters on earth too. So like, there's a bunch of different philosophies on it, but I think the idea of the mechanical blade. Is legit. And I like the hybrid idea the best because then you always have a fixed blade, no matter what.

• 4:02:44Speaker 02

  I like the, I like the hybrid. Obviously this year was great because I like the hybrid a lot more than. What going either pure mechanical or pure fixed.

• 4:02:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you feel like you got a little insurance policy.

• 4:02:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:02:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 4:02:57Speaker 02

  It's like the best of both worlds. You're like, okay, cool. Let's, uh, let's, let's keep consistent with this. And everybody I talked to, you know, they have. Well, throughout, or at the past year, several years, they have all different opinions, which is, broadheads are like, you know assholes, everybody has a fucking different opinion, you know what I mean? And, you know, John has his opinion, Cam has his opinion, everybody has their opinion, like, my buddy Dan, Elk Shape, do you ever watch that?

• 4:03:26Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 4:03:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:03:27Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, he's got his opinions.

• 4:03:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's got his opinion, all these guys have opinions, so I'm just trying to like,

• 4:03:31Joe Rogan?

  And they're all successful too.

• 4:03:32Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 4:03:33Joe Rogan?

  That's the crazy thing, it's like you're trying to sort it out, like who's right?

• 4:03:36Speaker 02

  And so I'm just trying to like, create the data, and put it down into, what works for me, and I don't have any sponsorships, so I'm just,

• 4:03:47Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 4:03:47Speaker 02

  Which allows me to be fairly empirical in the way that I'm actually selecting the criteria. But I also don't have the reps these guys do either, so you have to kind of rely on their, their data, and then collect all of it, and then kind of put it in one, one, one case, if that makes sense.

• 4:04:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely, I'm always fucking around with things, that's one of the cool things about archery, it's all the tinkering. You know, there's like so many different things you could try, like this year's the first time I tried a 15 inch front bar. You know, I went to a 15 inch front bar with a 12 inch back bar, ooh, I like it so much better.

• 4:04:20Speaker 02

  Really?

• 4:04:20Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, because I was using that equivalizer, and the problem is with wind, it's a sail. That sail just pushes your pin around too much.

• 4:04:28Speaker 02

  Bro, I love that guy though.

• 4:04:29Joe Rogan?

  Oh yeah, it's a great, look, the equivalizer, I used it for years, it's a great invention. But I find that with wind in particular,

• 4:04:36Speaker 02

  I know.

• 4:04:37Joe Rogan?

  On a long, the, the balance that I would get from that equivalizer, I can get from the, I'm using a cutter stabilizer, with a 15 inch front bar and a 12 inch back bar.

• 4:04:44Speaker 02

  Right.

• 4:04:45Joe Rogan?

  And it's perfect, it holds so good, it holds so nice, it's just, it feels so dead on. And this year I went with a 10 degree downward angle of the front bar.

• 4:04:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was gonna ask you about that, why, why did you go with it down versus what, what matters whether or not it's,

• 4:05:02Joe Rogan?

  I know, it doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make any sense, but I was talking to these archers who do it, and Levi Morgan does it. His goes at a downward angle too, and I was talking to this archer, and he said it actually, for some reason, it helps you hold better. Like you, it locks. In better.

• 4:05:16Speaker 02

  Really?

• 4:05:17Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, the slight downward thing with when you're pulling back, there's something about the slight downward angle of it that it lets you hold better with the same amount of weight.

• 4:05:24Speaker 02

  Right.

• 4:05:25Joe Rogan?

  Because it's going in a different direction than just straightforward. It doesn't totally make sense, but I really believe in it. Like when I started doing, I was like, ooh, there's a little different feel to this. I love that. I love all the tinkering.

• 4:05:38Speaker 02

  No, that's.

• 4:05:38Joe Rogan?

  I love the tinkering.

• 4:05:39Speaker 02

  That's my favorite thing.

• 4:05:41Joe Rogan?

  It's so much fun because it's, it's like,

• 4:05:45Joe Rogan?

  there's all these different ways to do it. You know, there's all these different releases, there's all these different styles of releases. There's so many different things you can fuck with. You could just go down a rabbit hole after rabbit hole. You know?

• 4:05:57Speaker 02

  That's what I did. You and I, I would say like 90% of their texts are around.

• 4:06:03Joe Rogan?

  What release were you?

• 4:06:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, like what release am I doing? And I went, I think I bought 20 releases this year. Like over the course of 23, 24 after, you know, the, the hunting season.

• 4:06:17Joe Rogan?

  Mm hmm.

• 4:06:18Speaker 02

  And it's fun. It's just pure fun. Because, okay, dude, I know, I got it. It's like 250 bucks. Sure, you buy a release. And I, I fuck with it for, you know, a couple of weeks. I get the pros and cons about it. And then I pass it over to, uh, what the guy that runs, uh, my, my little bow shop there at Black Rifle, Isaac. I pass it off to him, like, sell it on eBay. I don't give a fuck about those things. And.

• 4:06:46Joe Rogan?

  I got a box of them.

• 4:06:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, I got.

• 4:06:47Joe Rogan?

  I got a box of different releases. I've tried everything from four finger releases to two finger releases. What I really like is that one with the clicker, that Onyx with the clicker. It's got this little click and then. I feel like I can shoot that as good as I can shoot a hinge. So you get the best of both worlds. You get like the ability to make it go off if you have to. You know, if there's some weird situation where, you know, there's, you have like a literal a split second to make a very close shot. You can get away with that. Or you could shoot at a long distance target and feel just as comfortable as you do with a hinge. You know, because you have, there's something about having that little click and that Onyx clicker.

• 4:07:24Joe Rogan?

  Like, once you feel that little click, you know it's about to go off, you just pull through it.

• 4:07:27Speaker 02

  It's so funny, I'm, I'm the exact opposite. I hate that fucking click.

• 4:07:33Speaker 02

  Like, when I'm, when I'm on the click, I'm like, click, ah!

• 4:07:38Speaker 02

  I just want it to go off.

• 4:07:40Joe Rogan?

  It does fuck with your head. But one thing it does is it puts all your concentration in the shot process, instead of like, hammering the trigger.

• 4:07:45Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 4:07:46Joe Rogan?

  It just, you hear that click, you know it's right there, bop bop!

• 4:07:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 4:07:49Joe Rogan?

  You just pull through it. And it's so, it's such a delicate little click, that once you get it in your head, and you shoot with it a bunch of times, you like, welcome it, like, there we are, click. Come on!

• 4:08:00Speaker 02

  Oh, okay. So you're, you're like, looking forward to it?

• 4:08:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and then the click is like, settle in, we're right there, plop! It's like that one extra step, that gives you this one extra little piece of concentration. Joel Turner talks about it in that whole shot IQ process, and he developed it, he developed that Onyx Clicker.

• 4:08:18Speaker 02

  Oh, he developed that?

• 4:08:19Joe Rogan?

  He developed it, yes.

• 4:08:20Speaker 02

  Oh shit, okay, cool.

• 4:08:21Joe Rogan?

  So that one little thing, that one little click, is what separates it from a regular trigger, and then, bop bop! And then you get all your thought process into the shot process, and just making sure you do a good shot.

• 4:08:34Speaker 02

  Huh. Okay, alright, I've used it.

• 4:08:37Joe Rogan?

  It's a thing you gotta get used to, like everything else, like, but then you talk to Cam Hanes, he just fucking hammers that trigger.

• 4:08:41Speaker 02

  I know.

• 4:08:42Joe Rogan?

  He shoots everything, so it's like, some people can't do it that way, it's weird, everybody's got a different way they like to do it.

• 4:08:48Speaker 02

  It pisses me off so bad, cause I see, like, some of my buddies, like, um, do you know who Chris Jensen is, the country music singer, have you ever, like, uh, he and I have hunted together a few times in Colorado, he just hammers the trigger. It's the craziest thing you've ever seen in your life, it's just like, pow! Like, he's...

• 4:09:09Joe Rogan?

  That's kinda how Cam does it.

• 4:09:11Speaker 02

  And I look at him...

• 4:09:12Joe Rogan?

  He does that, touches off the trigger.

• 4:09:13Speaker 02

  I look at him every time, like... Oh my god, man, how are you like hitting the target? But he's like, just center mass, just over and over again.

• 4:09:23Joe Rogan?

  But it's, I think it's a mindfuck that a lot of people put their head into that you're gonna get target panic and that you can't control your emotions during a shot process to the point where you could command trigger. But that doesn't make any sense to me.

• 4:09:35Speaker 02

  No.

• 4:09:36Joe Rogan?

  Doesn't make any sense from like, I can understand the psychological aspect of target panic, but I have a feeling that it comes from two different things. It comes from buck fever, which is like you're freaking out, you never shot a buck this big before, oh my god, he's right there and you're ah! And you freak out. That's normal. But that's an experienced thing and you have to learn what that is and if you do it a bunch of times, then you get to the point where like, oh, I know how to control myself. I know what this is. And the more often you do it, like if you can go on a couple of pig hunts and then go on an elk hunt, you're way more in the groove. You're way, you're like right there, you know what to do, you know how to do it and you could touch the trigger off. 100%, Cam does it every goddamn time. I think it comes from the target archery community. Cause I think those guys are staring at these fucking little tiny X's from 20 yards and they gotta shoot 30 of them in a row.

• 4:10:21Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 4:10:21Joe Rogan?

  And I think you're, you get mind fucked. And that's why those guys have hinges and all these crazy and 40 inch fucking stabilizers and Vs that come out the back and it's all about not moving, plop, plop, but that's not bow hunting. And we were talking about this, that I think the difference between bow hunting and target archery is like the difference between doing free throws and playing basketball.

• 4:10:43Speaker 02

  Right, right. Yeah, yeah.

• 4:10:44Joe Rogan?

  Free throws, nobody's fucking with you, you're on the line, you can measure it, you can sit there and you can throw it.

• 4:10:50Speaker 02

  Different sport.

• 4:10:51Joe Rogan?

  Basketball, you're running around, you gotta, people are trying to block.

• 4:10:54Speaker 02

  Different sport, same, same sub-skillset.

• 4:10:56Joe Rogan?

  Right, that's hunting. Hunting is basketball. Target archery is free throws. That's what I think.

• 4:11:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:11:03Joe Rogan?

  That's what I think. And I think you can't tell a guy like Cam Haynes is doing it the wrong way. That if the best guy does it that way, you have to go, okay, why do we think you can't do it that way? Well, it's psychological, it's all psychological, it's all panic, it's all not being able to control your nerves. If you can shoot perfectly that way at a target, you should be able to shoot perfectly at an animal. You should be able to. The difference, it's not, the animal isn't like some fucking invulnerable thing that like you have to do it a certain way or the frequency is not correct. No, it's an animal, it's like, just like a target.

• 4:11:36Speaker 02

  The army marksmanship team is not Delta Force. Like that's

• 4:11:40Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right.

• 4:11:43Speaker 02

  Very different, very good shooters, army marksmanship team, probably extremely proficient shooters, maybe even better so than Delta. However, it's a different scenario based activity, completely different.

• 4:11:56Joe Rogan?

  Yes, yeah. Yeah, just because you shoot accurate at a stationary target, doesn't mean you understand how to freak out.

• 4:12:04Speaker 02

  When you have a

• 4:12:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 4:12:06Speaker 02

  A horse coming in with swords on its head.

• 4:12:10Joe Rogan?

  The freak out.

• 4:12:10Speaker 02

  It's a fucking different thing, man.

• 4:12:11Joe Rogan?

  And screaming.

• 4:12:12Speaker 02

  It's like, "Ah, I'm super horny, I'm gonna fuck you, I'm gonna kill you, I don't know." And you're like

• 4:12:18Joe Rogan?

  Could you imagine if you came over from Europe and there was no elk over there? And you were camping in the woods, you were one of those first guys, you're stupid fucking burlap tent? And you hear

• 4:12:32Joe Rogan?

  You'd be like demons.

• 4:12:33Speaker 02

  This fucking, you don't know, you're like, is this thing gonna

• 4:12:36Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 4:12:37Speaker 02

  Is it gonna run me through? Am I gonna die?

• 4:12:39Joe Rogan?

  100% gonna kill you.

• 4:12:41Speaker 02

  I would be more scared of that than a bear.

• 4:12:43Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 4:12:43Speaker 02

  It has giant swords on its head.

• 4:12:45Joe Rogan?

  Well, if it runs straight at you and just impales you and

• 4:12:49Speaker 02

  I had one come in this year.

• 4:12:50Joe Rogan?

  I'd be more scared of a bear, though. Because I feel like I'd grab an antler.

• 4:12:53Speaker 02

  If I hadn't seen any one of these before, and like, something comes in and it's got giant pointy things on its head? And I'm like trying to be completely blank slate? And I've got this other fuzzy thing that I can't really see, it's like claws and teeth? I'm like, my god, I'm way more afraid of this thing with swords on its head.

• 4:13:11Joe Rogan?

  Depends on the size of the bear. Depends on what kind of bear we're talking about.

• 4:13:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, like if it's a little black bear, I don't give a shit about those things. I don't care, I don't care about those things at all. Like it's, it's so, they're, they're kind of obnoxious.

• 4:13:24Joe Rogan?

  Did you see that one that got shot in New Jersey that's 880 pounds? 770 pounds dressed?

• 4:13:29Speaker 02

  It's fucking crazy.

• 4:13:30Joe Rogan?

  In New Jersey? In New Jersey, that's a bus.

• 4:13:33Speaker 02

  In the east coast. How is that possible?

• 4:13:35Joe Rogan?

  They have the most. They have the most black bears per capita in the whole country. We've played 100 times the video of the bears wrestling in the middle of a neighborhood and far rockaway. Big fucking black bears, just going to war in the middle of the street.

• 4:13:50Speaker 02

  I had a, I grew up in this middle of the like logging community out in the middle of nowhere. And there was this dude that used to keep, it, it, we I fight out, it's out in the middle of nowhere dude. It's like so hilljack, but it's awesome. And my grandfather, everybody, they're all hardcore loggers, but I'm not exaggerating. We had a guy just outside of town that had a pet bear, a pet black bear.

• 4:14:18Joe Rogan?

  How old was it?

• 4:14:19Speaker 02

  I mean, it's a full grown fucking black bear dude.

• 4:14:21Joe Rogan?

  Oh my god.

• 4:14:22Speaker 02

  And he would just, this is the sad part, like he had like defanged it because it would slobber on people.

• 4:14:28Joe Rogan?

  Oh god.

• 4:14:29Speaker 02

  And, but he had a full on black bear that would suck on his arm, basically.

• 4:14:38Joe Rogan?

  Oh Jesus.

• 4:14:39Speaker 02

  And uh, yeah, I mean.

• 4:14:40Joe Rogan?

  He fanged a couple of people accidentally?

• 4:14:41Speaker 02

  He what?

• 4:14:42Joe Rogan?

  He fanged a couple of people accidentally, playing with them?

• 4:14:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 4:14:45Joe Rogan?

  Oh god, so he made them gummy.

• 4:14:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, gummy.

• 4:14:48Joe Rogan?

  What did he feed it?

• 4:14:49Speaker 02

  Who the fuck knows, man?

• 4:14:51Joe Rogan?

  Donuts.

• 4:14:52Speaker 02

  Like, when I see this, these are loggers, yeah, yeah, these are, these are.

• 4:15:00Joe Rogan?

  How long did he have this bear?

• 4:15:01Speaker 02

  Probably 10 years, I would imagine, man. Like, like, you know, I, I, I tend to like, you know, um.

• 4:15:11Joe Rogan?

  What a crazy fuck.

• 4:15:12Speaker 02

  Turn down the volume on my like redneck upbringing.

• 4:15:15Joe Rogan?

  But hold on, how did he, did he keep this thing in his yard?

• 4:15:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:15:18Joe Rogan?

  Or did it just run loose?

• 4:15:19Speaker 02

  We would drive by it on our way to another town and he had a fucking bear in his front yard in a cage. It was insane dude.

• 4:15:26Joe Rogan?

  In a cage? Oh no, I thought it was just running around.

• 4:15:30Speaker 02

  No, no.

• 4:15:30Joe Rogan?

  Oh, he kept it in a cage?

• 4:15:32Speaker 02

  Big cage, just imagine.

• 4:15:34Joe Rogan?

  He never let it out?

• 4:15:35Speaker 02

  No, he'd let it out all the time. He'd like fucking walk it around. The guy was a complete insane person.

• 4:15:41Joe Rogan?

  Oh my god.

• 4:15:42Speaker 02

  And my uncle, my great uncle, he's like 80 years old, cra- complete crazy person too. Taught himself how to, how to fly back in the day. Came back from World War II. He was on um, Navy, he was a, he was a Navy ship, ship guy. Taught himself how to fly.

• 4:16:02Speaker 02

  He would fly around this Piper Super Cub and back in the day, you, you get a bounty for Cougar Tales. So he had a Walker Hound and he would put him in the front seat of his Piper Super Cub. And fly around looking for tracks, land his plane in the middle of fucking nowhere, kick his dog out. So he'd tell me these stories and I mean, I hunted with this guy forever.

• 4:16:24Joe Rogan?

  And the dog would find the bear?

• 4:16:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. Punch him out on the bear or the cougar or whatever it was.

• 4:16:29Joe Rogan?

  Tree it.

• 4:16:30Speaker 02

  Tree it, shoot it with a 22 Hornet because his whole thing was you let him bleed out in their lungs and then they'll fall out of the tree. You don't want to shoot them with too big of a caliber because it knocks them out of the tree and they run around. If you shoot them with small caliber and penetrates both lungs, their lungs fill up.

• 4:16:47Joe Rogan?

  Oh, God.

• 4:16:48Speaker 02

  They drown and they fall out.

• 4:16:49Joe Rogan?

  Jesus Christ.

• 4:16:51Speaker 02

  This is what like my Cecil Ball, was my, my uncle back in the.

• 4:16:57Joe Rogan?

  Did he have a backup gun?

• 4:16:59Speaker 02

  Oh yeah. Like this guy was completely insane. He had like, by, when I was hunting with him.

• 4:17:03Joe Rogan?

  Comfortable with a cougar and a 22.

• 4:17:05Speaker 02

  Dude, this guy was 80 years old when I was hunting cougars with him back in like the Panhandle Idaho. And he was telling, he would tell me stories and I would only go hunting with him to listen to the stories because they were the best fucking stories on the planet. He crashed his plane. He got fired from the sawmill. He was buzzing the tower, buzzing the tower, crashed his fucking plane into his boss's office. And he's like, fuck you. I'm out of here.

• 4:17:36Speaker 02

  He was a complete insane person and he was telling me this other story and these are like the summarized version, the, the, the, the cliff notes of it. But dude, he would bay cougars in the middle of the mountains by himself. He's fly his plane, land at the middle of the snow, find a spot for him, bay cougars. And he had this cougar up in this log jam above a creek. And he was telling me this, this cougar had tucked himself underneath the logs above the creek. And there's snow on top of the logs, there's logs, and then he was like crawling in underneath in the middle of the mountains with like a 357 snub nose.

• 4:18:17Speaker 02

  He climbed into the cougar den? Cause he's like, these, this cougar is eating my dogs and he's like, reaching around, my uncle, who had like, three strokes by the time that I was talking to him. He's like, and he'd stutter a little bit. He's driving like, 80 miles an hour, around like, like crazy logging roads in the middle of nowhere. I'm white knuckling, the, his Toyota Tacoma with cougar hounds in the back of the Toyota going, "Oh my god, I'm gonna fucking die any moment." And he's like, "Yeah, and I got my..." You know, he's like, he, he had a, he had a slight stutter. And pull out his snub-nosed 357 like a gangster, and reach underneath the logs,

• 4:19:00Speaker 02

  and start pulling the trigger once he found the right fur, between the cougar and his dogs.

• 4:19:07Joe Rogan?

  Oh my god.

• 4:19:08Speaker 02

  This dude was completely insane when it came to doing things. This is my uncle. This is like, the guy that I'm like, hanging out with.

• 4:19:20Joe Rogan?

  He reached into the logs and felt his way to the cat?

• 4:19:25Speaker 02

  Yes. With a snub-nose, whatever, you know, 357.

• 4:19:30Joe Rogan?

  Oh my god.

• 4:19:31Speaker 02

  To kill the cougar, cause he was, he's pulling up his dogs and eating his dogs.

• 4:19:35Joe Rogan?

  Oh my god.

• 4:19:36Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm, yeah.

• 4:19:38Joe Rogan?

  Holy shit.

• 4:19:39Speaker 02

  Like, when you talk about where I grew up, and like, the guys I grew up with, cause I, you know, I'm a green beret, you know? It's like, "Oh, you fucking pussy."

• 4:19:51Speaker 02

  "Oh yeah, oh, you're not like, walking around in the woods with a saw on your back, you know?" And I'm like, "Yeah, just jumping on planes, I guess, you know."

• 4:20:01Joe Rogan?

  That's hilarious. They look down on it? Like, that's an easy job.

• 4:20:05Speaker 02

  You're not a fucking lumberjack like us. You're not a fucking lumberjack. You're kind of a pussy.

• 4:20:09Joe Rogan?

  That's so crazy.

• 4:20:10Speaker 02

  I'd go home, my dad would make fun of me. Like, oh.

• 4:20:13Joe Rogan?

  Isn't it interesting that there's like... Levels of Discipline and hard work in the world. Like there's like, if you want to be a logger, there's no easy logger job. They don't exist. That is a hard fucking job. Those are hard men.

• 4:20:32Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 4:20:32Joe Rogan?

  You want to be a logger and you're gonna do it for thirty years? You're gonna chop and carry trees for thirty fucking years? You're gonna be living in the woods chopping and carrying three trees for thirty fucking years?

• 4:20:45Speaker 02

  And like falling trees, wrapping

• 4:20:47Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 4:20:48Speaker 02

  Big cables around them and they'd be like, oh, you carried a backpack through the woods? And that's pretty cool. Man, that's

• 4:20:56Joe Rogan?

  I mean, you think about the different like groups of people that live these extreme lives. And how many people are at the coffee shop with blue hair that are totally oblivious? And they think hard work is like, you know, I'm dealing with my trauma and I'm going I'm going to Starbucks today to protest.

• 4:21:15Joe Rogan?

  It is a guy with a log on his back and he's seventy-five years old. And he can't wait to get off work so he can kill cougars.

• 4:21:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:21:23Joe Rogan?

  With a pistol.

• 4:21:24Speaker 02

  With a fucking three fifty-seven.

• 4:21:26Joe Rogan?

  And we all exist on the same landmass.

• 4:21:29Speaker 02

  Yeah. Some dude that looks like he's like Building bikes in the eighteen hundreds with the fucking curly coat mustache. It's like waxed up and you've got another guy. That's like eighty years old. It's had three strokes. It's driving around in the mountains. It's running up a mountain at a six-minute mile. Chasing his dogs to go kill a cougar.

• 4:21:52Speaker 02

  Nah, not the same person. Not the same order of priorities, you know what I mean?

• 4:21:57Joe Rogan?

  There's probably a lot of those guys back in the day. I bet that was a common type of human in like eighteen twenty.

• 4:22:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:22:03Joe Rogan?

  But you ran it all. That was like how you had to stay alive. You know, you lived to be about forty, then you had a stroke. Everybody died. Nobody got any vitamins. Eating fucking cornmeal and gruel and trying to eat squirrels.

• 4:22:23Joe Rogan?

  You're barely getting by.

• 4:22:26Speaker 02

  Bear, like you're eating, you're eating a bear. That's how fucking nasty.

• 4:22:31Joe Rogan?

  They preferred bears.

• 4:22:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:22:32Joe Rogan?

  That's what's crazy. Apparently, they, they thought it tasted like beef. They cooked a lot of bears.

• 4:22:37Speaker 02

  God.

• 4:22:38Joe Rogan?

  It's fucking gross. Some of them were gross. The grizzlies apparently are super gross. I asked, Cam just released a new video, Redemption, a grizzly bear hunt.

• 4:22:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I saw it.

• 4:22:47Joe Rogan?

  And it's good, great video. But he ate the bear. I was like, how did it taste? Like, it was okay. And then I talked to James, he's like, it was fucking horrible. It's horrible. It tastes disgusting. But black bear didn't taste that bad if you get it from a good spot. Apparently, like Rinella says, the, the blueberries, bears have been eating blueberries are the best tasting meat ever.

• 4:23:06Speaker 02

  But that, I think that's also relative to bear meat. So they're saying.

• 4:23:11Joe Rogan?

  No, he says it's like a great tasting meat, period.

• 4:23:14Speaker 02

  I don't believe him.

• 4:23:15Joe Rogan?

  You don't think if it was like flavored with like, all they ate was blueberries? I think the problem is they eat so much rotten shit.

• 4:23:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:23:21Joe Rogan?

  And that affects the way they taste. But I think if they're eating only blueberries, like, did you ever see his video?

• 4:23:26Speaker 02

  Hmm?

• 4:23:26Joe Rogan?

  With the blueberry fat? It's like purple fat. It's crazy. He said that's delicious. He said it's so delicious. I believe him.

• 4:23:34Speaker 02

  I'd, I love Steve.

• 4:23:35Joe Rogan?

  You think he's a fucking liar.

• 4:23:37Speaker 02

  I love Steve. He's awesome. He's so much fun to hunt with and he's so, but I just firmly disagree with him on this one. I'm like, bro, like, no.

• 4:23:46Joe Rogan?

  What is the best tasting game animal for you?

• 4:23:50Speaker 02

  Moose.

• 4:23:51Joe Rogan?

  Moose?

• 4:23:52Speaker 02

  Moose.

• 4:23:52Joe Rogan?

  Interesting.

• 4:23:52Speaker 02

  Hundred percent.

• 4:23:53Joe Rogan?

  It's a good one.

• 4:23:54Speaker 02

  And for me, for my kids, moose is the only game animal my kids are like, yeah.

• 4:24:01Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 4:24:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. They are one hundred percent chips in. They look forward to it. Not only do they look forward to it, they request it. It's the only game meat.

• 4:24:09Joe Rogan?

  That's interesting. That's very interesting.

• 4:24:12Speaker 02

  Like, I can eat elk. But I'm the only one at the table eating elk.

• 4:24:16Joe Rogan?

  Interesting.

• 4:24:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:24:18Joe Rogan?

  I only shot one moose ever and I ate it and I remember it was good. But that was with Ben O'Brien, like 10 years ago. But I haven't had a lot of experience with it. For me, it's Axis deer and elk are the two best ones. Elk first, Axis deer second.

• 4:24:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:24:35Joe Rogan?

  Do you like Axis?

• 4:24:36Speaker 02

  I love Axis.

• 4:24:36Joe Rogan?

  It's crazy what it tastes like, right? It doesn't taste like a deer.

• 4:24:39Speaker 02

  No, it's.

• 4:24:39Joe Rogan?

  Like, this is a totally different kind of animal.

• 4:24:41Speaker 02

  It's not even, it's not even beef. It's like a clean.

• 4:24:43Joe Rogan?

  It's almost sweet.

• 4:24:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a clean beef.

• 4:24:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's an interesting flavor. And the fact that, you know, they have so many of them in Hawaii. Like that Maui Newey Venison Company, for people who want to buy wild game, you can get actual wild game from Maui Newey Venison. They'll ship you Axis deer. Frozen, they have meat sticks. It's fucking great. I'm not affiliated with them. I know the owners, but I don't have anything to do with them. But it's a great company. And they're doing something that you actually have to do. There's no natural predators on Maui. So they have to shoot these Axis deer. They're fucking everywhere.

• 4:25:14Speaker 02

  They're like, they're rodents, basically.

• 4:25:17Joe Rogan?

  And they're delicious rodent. It's a crazy animal to hunt, too, because they grew up with tigers. So they evolved with tigers, so they move so fucking fast. They're the fastest animal I've ever hunted.

• 4:25:27Speaker 02

  I shot a doe at 30 yards, bedded. And she dodged the arrow.

• 4:25:35Speaker 02

  It doesn't even make sense.

• 4:25:37Joe Rogan?

  They move so fast.

• 4:25:38Speaker 02

  It doesn't even make sense. I started shooting them at longer distance away. Because the arrows quiet and they can't hear the string slap.

• 4:25:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 4:25:49Speaker 02

  So they can't hear the bow. So I started just shooting them a little bit further away.

• 4:25:53Joe Rogan?

  They still hear that. If you, we stopped hunting them in the day. Because in the morning, there's no wind. We started hunting them only in the afternoon because there's more wind and the wind at least covers a little bit of it. But Dudley got video of me shooting this Axis deer at 80 yards. And it's a perfect shot. Perfect. It's going right to the vitals at 80 yards. Perfect break. And then 10 yards, the arrow's 10 yards from him, he goes and he's gone. Within 10 yards, he was gone. He was nowhere near where the arrow hit.

• 4:26:19Speaker 02

  What?

• 4:26:19Joe Rogan?

  He moved out of the way. He heard the arrow coming and he moved out of the way. 10 yards from him. There's a video of it, slow-mo video. Because it's a lighted knock. You see a perfect line, headed straight for his vitals and then gone. Gone.

• 4:26:34Speaker 02

  Not even, not even close.

• 4:26:36Joe Rogan?

  Not even close. Like a bullet. I missed him by like a whole quarter.

• 4:26:41Joe Rogan?

  He was gone. He just ran away. They, they, they, they hear things. They think a tiger's coming.

• 4:26:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:26:48Joe Rogan?

  They just go. They just go. It just makes you feel so slow. When you watch how they move, you're like, people suck. We're so fucking clumsy and soft and we're so vulnerable. My back hurts. Ow.

• 4:27:01Speaker 02

  My, my arrow that's moving at, you know, 300 feet per second.

• 4:27:05Joe Rogan?

  It has no chance.

• 4:27:06Speaker 02

  No, no chance.

• 4:27:07Joe Rogan?

  No chance. Yeah. Especially if they see the bow go off or they hear the bug go off. They're gone. And they're delicious. And they're everywhere in Texas, too. That's the wild thing about Texas. You could just bring whatever you want in. Well, you want zebras? You can bring zebras. You had zebras?

• 4:27:22Speaker 02

  I know I did.

• 4:27:25Joe Rogan?

  You can have fucking zebras. My wife saw a zebra one day when she was driving the kids to school.

• 4:27:29Speaker 02

  I know. We had.

• 4:27:30Joe Rogan?

  I saw a zebra. I think I saw a zebra. I said, you probably did. Some asshole probably has a zebra. The zebra got out.

• 4:27:37Speaker 02

  My kids would be like driving around like, let's go look at the zebras. Okay, let's go look at the zebras.

• 4:27:43Joe Rogan?

  You could have zebras in Texas, but I love it. I love it that you can go to like, when we went to that place down in, uh, South Texas, that ranch that my friend owns. We went down there like, there's African animals here.

• 4:27:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:27:54Joe Rogan?

  You have these crazy black bucks and all these different animals that are not from anywhere near here. And there's thousands of them. Like, this is nuts.

• 4:28:02Speaker 02

  Well, you shot that, um.

• 4:28:04Joe Rogan?

  Neil guy.

• 4:28:05Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 4:28:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 4:28:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, but everybody says that's the best meat ever. So put it on the scale associated with everything else.

• 4:28:14Joe Rogan?

  It's really good. It's all really good. All wild game from a healthy animal's delicious. I've, I find, at least, uh, undulates. They're all delicious. I've never found one that I didn't like. But, uh, I still think elk is the best. That's just my, I like the flavor. Also, I like elk hunting so much. It means more to me when I'm eating a piece of elk. I think I'm just biased. I think if there's anything, it's, I just like eating them. I like eating them. And I also think, it's gonna sound crazy, but I think you get their spirit. I think there's something about these super potent wild animals that you kill with an arrow and then you're eating it. Like, you get the, you're. The spirit of that experience, the spirit of that animal. I think it it empowers you in some very strange physiological way.

• 4:28:58Joe Rogan?

  I really do. I think it's they're so vitamin rich. Like they're such athletes. The way they run up a mountain, like you're getting these nutrients from that animal that I don't think is like any other animal.

• 4:29:09Speaker 02

  No.

• 4:29:10Joe Rogan?

  Because they're so much stronger than all those other animals. They just run. They have nine hundred pounds. They run. Right up the top of a mountainside like it's nothing. You're like, this is crazy. You watch them when they get winded and they fucking run over the top of a hill that takes you forty minutes to to crawl up. They just run up it. When you eat that thing, you're like.

• 4:29:30Joe Rogan?

  You just feel it. You know, you feel it and your your body feels it. You get like a little boost.

• 4:29:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's it's electric.

• 4:29:38Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 4:29:39Speaker 02

  I feel the same way.

• 4:29:40Joe Rogan?

  I've given it to people that don't even hunt.

• 4:29:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:29:42Joe Rogan?

  And they go, dude, I feel so good after I ate this. I go, yeah, there's something to that. It's superfood.

• 4:29:48Speaker 02

  It is a superfood. My neighbors. When I gave them, you know, elk. Or whatever it is, they're like. Dude, this is amazing.

• 4:29:57Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 4:29:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is what it feels like. To be a hunter. This is what it feels like to. Go out, kill something. Process it, put in a package. And it's special. It's meaningful. It's it's the whole. Celebration, and I hate to say it like that, but it is. It's like this is. You said it earlier, and actually I wanted to.

• 4:30:23Speaker 02

  What you call it, like a an assassin for your food or something like that?

• 4:30:27Joe Rogan?

  Supermarket assassin.

• 4:30:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, supermarket assassin.

• 4:30:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 4:30:30Speaker 02

  This is the difference is over here. You think this is. One, it tastes different. Two, there's. A definitive meaning you're associating with it. So there's no way that you can tell me that there's not a psychological nutrient. Connection between those two where it makes. Something more meaningful and beneficial specifically for you. There's just no way you can tell me that's not better.

• 4:30:51Joe Rogan?

  Right, like a good meal with people you love. I feel like almost gives you extra nutrients.

• 4:30:56Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 4:30:56Joe Rogan?

  Almost like there's an extra good feeling about it. It's why people like eating together.

• 4:31:00Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 4:31:00Joe Rogan?

  You know, eating good food with people you care about, having fun. The whole experience is better for your overall being.

• 4:31:07Speaker 02

  It's the difference between like jacking off in a porta potty and eating a meal with your fucking family, right? It's like, there's like a huge difference. Like, one is like gross and a little bit shameful and disgusting. And just like a...

• 4:31:21Joe Rogan?

  One's a jacked to the box cheeseburger. This is an elk that you cooked on your own grill.

• 4:31:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 4:31:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's a big difference, man. Yeah, it's, um, I'm glad I found it, I'll tell you that. It's, uh, it's also, it's so hard to do. You know, we've both had our trials and tribulations, uh, elk bow hunting. And it's just, it's so difficult to do that the people that do it well, you, you know, the people that are successful, you know how hard it is to do. You're like, god damn, you pulled it off. Like, that, that's a, hunting elk with a bow in the wild is a real thing. Even, you know, the places we go are better, they have more elk and stuff. It's always hard, folks, it's hard.

• 4:31:58Speaker 02

  It's always.

• 4:31:58Joe Rogan?

  The, the problem with the public land thing is the public. This fucking, I have so many friends that have terrible stories about guys winding elk on purpose, blowing elk out, they're all competing against the same packs of elk or the same, uh, groups of, uh, of hunters are competing against the same, uh, elk groups. It's like, it's crazy. It's like, you, you, these, these herds of animals are getting like winded on two and three sides because people are like moving in, trying to get them.

• 4:32:25Speaker 02

  Right.

• 4:32:26Joe Rogan?

  You know, it's just, the, the ideal situation would be that, I think the ideal situation... Would be like, you know, they're trying to do that, um, that American, what is it called? The American Serengeti project? They're trying to like rewild a whole section of the country. They're buying up land and they wanna like bring back buffalo and bring back all these animals. If everybody like at one time in their life could have like some sort of a hunt where they're like, someone shows them how to do it, someone takes them out, they get an animal and they cook and eat that animal. If you're a meat eater, I think at one time in your life, you should try to do that.

• 4:33:11Joe Rogan?

  I think that may be the solution for people to understand what it's all about. Just one time in your life, or even go with someone when they're doing it. One time, just know what that's like, cause it's a, it ignites a little part of your DNA that you didn't even know was in there. There's like a little part of us that for tens of thousands of years, the only way we survived is hunting.

• 4:33:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:33:33Joe Rogan?

  Thousands and thousands and thousands of years, just baked into our DNA. And when you're in there and you're in those woods and you got that rangefinder and that elk is 52 yards away and you see him walking through the bushes and you know you got a window. And it's like a part of your DNA that just goes, yeah, this is what we're doing. This is what we're doing now. Lock in, lock in, get the animal, bring it back. There's like some crazy like ancient primal code. And I tell people the same thing when you catch a fish. When you catch a fish, it's like, oh, oh, oh, this excitement, you catch a fish, that's built into your code. Because now you're gonna live, you're gonna live, you got food for your family. It's in there, a human reward system. And that's how we're supposed to get food.

• 4:34:17Joe Rogan?

  We're supposed to appreciate the food, cause it's hard to get. That's what it's supposed to be. It's not supposed to be going to the supermarket and look, there's a ground beef, it's five dollars a pound and fucking.

• 4:34:29Joe Rogan?

  You never chase anything, you never go kill anything, you're just sitting there eating your fucking bowl of pasta, watching TV.

• 4:34:37Speaker 02

  It's so easy, it's so easy, right? It's just, it's not supposed to be that easy.

• 4:34:43Joe Rogan?

  It's not supposed to be easy to live. If it is, you're gonna get anxiety. You're not designed for that. You're designed for like, trauma and testing. You're designed for struggle. You're designed to overcome things. And if you're not ever overcoming anything, you're filled with anxiety.

• 4:34:58Speaker 02

  Yeah. I don't deserve this.

• 4:35:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 4:35:00Speaker 02

  Like, how do I deserve this majestic fucking animal that I just consumed?

• 4:35:06Joe Rogan?

  I didn't earn it.

• 4:35:07Speaker 02

  No.

• 4:35:07Joe Rogan?

  I just paid for it. Which is weird.

• 4:35:10Speaker 02

  What?

• 4:35:10Joe Rogan?

  Doing some weird job and then you got these hitmen out there, whacking cows.

• 4:35:15Speaker 02

  Supermarket hitmen. That's like the best, that is one of the best quotes I've got.

• 4:35:18Joe Rogan?

  It is. I mean, if there's anything that's, there's nothing grosser in this country than factory farming. It's the grossest thing ever. They have laws where you're not even allowed to film it because it's so gross.

• 4:35:28Speaker 02

  No, it's disgusting.

• 4:35:29Joe Rogan?

  Ag gag laws, where you go to jail if you filmed horrific acts.

• 4:35:35Speaker 02

  Which is completely insane when you think about it.

• 4:35:38Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 4:35:39Speaker 02

  When you think about how easy it is to go get your food and if people knew, especially meat eaters, I, I've never quite understood meat eaters that are anti-hunting. That makes no sense to me, by the way. Like, zero sense. How can you think that this is a better way, where you're caging an animal, filling it full of like, hormones and supplemental nutrition, and corn and all these things, and then you're putting a bolt through its head?

• 4:36:06Joe Rogan?

  But I'm not there, and then, I'm at Starbucks protesting.

• 4:36:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, but you're anti meat.

• 4:36:15Joe Rogan?

  Got in my, my hand, but now I'm putting it in my mouth.

• 4:36:18Speaker 02

  Just because I wanna actually feel the significance of this event in the context of like, I don't have any bloodlust, I just don't wanna be a hypocrite.

• 4:36:26Joe Rogan?

  Right. It's also one of those things that like, if you haven't experienced it, you really don't understand it. And when you're trying to explain it to people, they're looking at it from like, the cartoon Disney version of Hunters, and movie version of Hunters where they're all cocksuckers. Dude, we should wrap this up because we gotta go meet Cam for dinner. It's almost 6 o'clock. We've done like,

• 4:36:43Speaker 02

  Shit, dude.

• 4:36:44Joe Rogan?

  How many hours do we do? Almost five. Bro, almost five hours.

• 4:36:49Speaker 02

  Holy shit.

• 4:36:49Joe Rogan?

  Like that. Alright, appreciate you, brother.

• 4:36:51Speaker 02

  See you, brother.

• 4:36:52Joe Rogan?

  Alright, bye.