How To Have Hard Conversations With Friends ft. Bobby Bones

What can one of the world's best interviewers teach you about communication? In this conversation, I sit down with Bobby Bones to break down the habits that have helped him interview thousands of people, build lasting relationships, and lead a team that's worked together for more than 20 years. We talk about asking better questions, building trust, handling difficult conversations, and the simple shifts that make every conversation stronger. Order The Next Conversation Workbook: https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/workbook Want a FREE communication tip each week? Click here to join my newsletter. https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/newsletter Thank you to our Sponsors: Square. Get up to $200 off Square hardware when you sign up at https://square.com/go/JEFFERSON Cozy Earth. Upgrade Your Every Day. Get 20% off at cozyearth.com/jefferson or use code JEFFERSON at check out. https://cozyearth.com/pages/jefferson BetterHelp. Click https://betterhelp.com/jeffersonfisher for a discount on your first month of therapy. Like what you hear? Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a 5-star review! Order my new book, The Next Conversation, today! https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/book Suggest a topic or ask a question for me to answer on the show! https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/topic Join my School of Communication. https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/membership Follow me on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/jefferson_fisher Follow me on TikTok https://www.tiktok.com/@justaskjefferson?lang=en Follow me on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffersonfisher/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:30Speaker 01

  How do you have those harder conversations with friends, especially when you're working with them, to make sure you're not damaging? Like, you need to make a decision, and sometimes you need to be, I need to say, the boss thing, but you also don't want to damage that relationship?

• 0:44Speaker 02

  The boundaries have to be discussed

• 0:49Speaker 02

  many times over, just to be even reinstated.

• 0:54Speaker 01

  I remember, I think, I don't think I've won a day in high school where I didn't listen to Bobby Bones' Amy and Lunchbox, by the way.

• 1:04Speaker 02

  What town? In Beaumont?

• 1:05Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 1:06Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:07Speaker 02

  Our pop days?

• 1:08Speaker 01

  94.1, Top 40. That was like, that was the first time I was ever introduced. But I don't think I ever had a morning that it wasn't Bobby, Amy, and Lunchbox. What is it like to be able to, even now, have like really close, I would imagine, very close friends, the people you've done a lot of life with, and Eddie, your best friend, and you have, you do the music and everything, that you're still, to this day, are able to have really awesome conversations with, and just do it for a living?

• 1:40Speaker 02

  I think one of the coolest things that I've been able to do is hire all my friends, just generally speaking.

• 1:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44Speaker 02

  I've been with the whole show now for over 20 years, which is crazy. But also, I did the math. It means I'm getting older, too. Like, my mortality comes out whenever I start thinking about how long we've been together.

• 1:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:56Speaker 02

  But it's awesome because my goal was to always just, like, work alongside people I liked.

• 2:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:04Speaker 02

  Because I saw, like, my stepdad, he worked in a mill. He did not really like the job that he had. He really did not like the people. He didn't have a close bond with them. So I always wanted to have something that I, like, enjoyed with people I enjoyed. But it was kind of a weird way that it all happened, because it was never my strategically, you know, grandiose plan to have all my friends come into the show. We had no money. And so you just call the people that you know to come in and jump in with you. And so when I started that show, and I was by myself, and I had no co-host, it was, who can I hire for cheap? And who do you hire for cheap? Well, your friends. They'll come do it for free.

• 2:40Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:41Speaker 02

  And so it was such an odd way to build that show. And at the time, I resented it a bit, because the company wouldn't give me money to hire professional co-hosts.

• 2:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:53Speaker 02

  Because they didn't know if they believed in the product. So I just grabbed all the people that I liked and that made me better. And now we've been together for a long time, made a long time. It's crazy to think about when you think about, like, thinking of the numbers. It's been over 20 years with pretty much all of them, even Eddie and I. He's my best friend. And we've done the radio show together for 13, 14 years. But we did television for another three or four before that. So we've been together, you know, 17, 18 years.

• 3:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, and now, not only do you have that close relationship, but, I mean, they're also really professionals, like, at a craft. Now, I think that that's, that can be really easily overlooked of, I think, just any radio, or television, for that matter, of there's a certain craft to making sure that you keep kind of the ball in the air? Or do you find that it's just pure friendship that you're able to keep things rolling?

• 3:43Speaker 02

  Oh, I think they've gotten really good at what they do. I also think it's a couple of hats. Like, I have to wear the hat of being the boss sometimes. And then I have to wear the hat of being the friend sometimes. But I think, over the years, there's been a great understanding of when I have to switch those hats.

• 3:59Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:59Speaker 02

  Because, number one, I gotta make sure the ship is taken care of.

• 4:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 4:03Speaker 02

  And there are some difficult decisions that have to be made at times. So they are great at doing their job, but they're also great at knowing when they have to do their job at a higher level, because it needs to be done that way. So I think that's been the hardest part about working with your friends, is you gotta be their boss, too. And that ain't comfortable sometimes. But at this point, we've done it for so long. It's a well-oiled machine. It works, and nobody's left. You know, sometimes people will message in and be like, man, sometimes you guys sound like you hate each other, because we're literally arguing about something.

• 4:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:35Speaker 02

  Man, do you think we'd all be here 21, 22 years later together, if anyone really hated each other?

• 4:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:41Speaker 02

  I mean, to have the freedom to actually communicate openly and honestly with millions of people listening through radio or podcast, that is something that I don't really take for granted, because we've worked hard to be able to do that. And the relationship is what really allows that to happen. Because I've worked on other projects with other people, and you can't really do that unless there is a complete trust and comfortability.

• 5:05Speaker 01

  And that has to do, like, it reminds me of, hearing my grandparents argue, you know? And like, you go, God, I think they hate each other. It's like, no, they just, it's a morning thing.

• 5:16Speaker 02

  They had the freedom to say how they feel and not worry that the other one's gonna run away or leave.

• 5:21Speaker 01

  Exactly. Oh, my grandmother will look at me and just insult my grandfather about something. You know, he doesn't take his medicine, you know? He never, and he's just, he's in a different world, you know? Because there's just been such that, that bond. But I, my audience, Bobby's somebody who really cares a lot about how they show up in communication. And what really just inspires me so much about what you've built and where you've come from, is you get to have, and you've cultivated a show, that does model real conversation. And I find that can be lacking sometimes in the way we model relationships. I wonder if you're, not all the details of your childhood, but simply a smaller town, right?

• 6:06Speaker 01

  In Arkansas, of like, do you find that that has influenced the way that you approach conversations, handle small talk, or ask questions? Do you find that that's been something that's driven that?

• 6:20Speaker 02

  I think being from where I'm from, maybe a small town, a rural area, and maybe from the south even, I feel like that is a part of it with, like, just a warmness. Because I have friends that are way nicer than me, and they're from the northeast, and they are not near as warm.

• 6:39Speaker 01

  Right.

• 6:39Speaker 02

  Like, you understand how, like, how genuine they are after a, after a bit of time with them. Yeah, I think, you know, coming from where I come from in rural Arkansas, everybody talks to everybody.

• 6:50Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 6:51Speaker 02

  So if you didn't wave when someone drove by, that was weird. And, you know, when I go back home, if I'm driving through and people are waving at me, I'm like, wait, what? Who is that? And I forget, that's just, when you drive by a car, you wave at them.

• 7:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:05Speaker 02

  And if you don't, that's weird, even if you don't know who it is.

• 7:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, I definitely think that in the south, from getting a haircut to ordering at a cafe, like, they're gonna learn your life story, one way or another. Haircuts, yep. Yeah, church, whatever it is, you're gonna find out everything about everybody. For me, I know that is, that has been helpful in terms of being able to keep conversation. Because a lot of people struggle keeping conversation in the air, kind of passing the ball back and forth.

• 7:36Speaker 02

  I feel like I'm just genuinely curious, though. Like, I think I see someone, I kind of wonder, you know, if you cut a tree and you see all the circles, I kind of just wonder, like, what their circles are. Like, I genuinely am curious about folks. And so I think that's where a lot of mine comes from. You know, I also sometimes feel like I don't want to bother people. So there's that, because it's kind of a, it's a weird juxtaposition of being, like, wildly insecure and very confident, because I have them both.

• 8:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:05Speaker 02

  Like, I feel like I don't want to bother people, yet I'm very curious. But it's like, even with my job, like, I don't think I would be good at my job if I was the most secure person ever. Like, I'm wildly insecure. But to do my job, I've got to be really, I gotta think I'm really good at doing the job. So it's been, it's a, it's like an odd mix, or like, I got a screw loose, but it's the right screw.

• 8:26Speaker 01

  Right.

• 8:27Speaker 02

  It's kind of how I feel about where I'm from as well. But I, sure, I think that helps with communication. Everybody talks to everybody all the time. I, if someone talks to me randomly, especially if they, like, don't know what I do for a living, because that happens a lot, but if it's just somebody random, I'm never annoyed. But I always feel like I'm annoying everybody.

• 8:43Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 8:44Speaker 02

  It's a weird, if someone's like, hey, you know, how's your day going? And even in an elevator, I'm like, oh, this is nice, someone's talking to me. But I would never, like, randomly, like, bother somebody. But I do like it when someone does it to me.

• 8:55Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 8:56Speaker 02

  So.

• 8:56Speaker 01

  So what's the, what's the lesson there?

• 8:58Speaker 02

  The lesson, well, the lesson is...

• 9:02Speaker 02

  In my comedy act, there was kind of an inspirational talk too. I talk about whenever you want help with something, like ask people for help. And then I say, it was always weird for me to ask people for help because I thought people didn't really want to spend time with me. They didn't want to be bothered. But then when people ask me for help, I love to help. Cause I would say, hey, tell people your goals. If you tell people your goals, they are more likely to help you. And it's the same thing where I never wanted to ask for help because I thought they were bothered by someone asking for help. But when I would, people ask me for help, I love it. I can't wait to give people help or advice or tips.

• 9:44Speaker 02

  So yeah, we just worry too much about how people look at us and view us and it's kind of counterproductive.

• 9:51Speaker 01

  Do you think, and I find this very interesting because I love talking about this. Like this is my nerdy talk of like, how does this, how does this happen? So if somebody in the elevator approaches you and strikes up conversation, you almost get like a boost from it when you leave of like, hey, I've connected with another human in the world, I'm here. But when it's, you, you have the chance, it's very difficult because it comes to a point of like, why would they?

• 10:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't want to bother them.

• 10:18Speaker 01

  So what do you think like the script is that's, that's preventing that of like, is it that nobody would care?

• 10:25Speaker 02

  I think it's rejection. Yes, rejection is what keeps us from doing anything and everything. It's rejection and failure. And if I do try to connect and they don't connect, what does it say about me that I'm not good enough? That I'm not, you know, strong enough? I'm not good looking enough? I'm not, and it's not that at all, actually. But yeah, it's, it's complete fear of rejection, complete fear of failure. But again, when someone does it to us, we love it. Yet we're afraid to do it to anybody else because we feel like if they don't react the way we want them to, that's on us. And it's really not, it's on them. They could be having 10, 100,000 things, it's not a real number, that's happening in their day that's keeping them from, from reacting the way that we want them to.

• 11:02Speaker 01

  Before we keep going, I want to take a moment to tell you about Square. Bet you didn't know that when I was a young attorney, I also owned a coffee shop. And one of the point of sale systems that we used was Square. And in fact, this morning, I'm out of the country right now with my family, we hopped into a little Australian cafe and you know what they used? Square. It was a nice little full circle moment for me and they're using it for good reason, for the same reason I did. Because everything about business that you don't like becomes that much easier so you can focus more on the things that you love. It's not just a point of sale system. It adds all the things up that you don't like to do, like payment processing, invoices, everything all into one to make everything organized, smooth and easy. So if you are looking to start a new business or maybe wanting to run a business with better

• 11:46Speaker 01

  tools, people who use, businesses who use Square online earn up to 36% more revenue, which is awesome. Right now you can go to square.com/go/jefferson and sign up to get $200 off your Square hardware, which is awesome. That's square.com/go/jefferson. So run your business better with Square. And now let's keep going. Have you always been somebody who's excellent at questions?

• 12:14Speaker 02

  Oh, I don't know if I'm even that now. I just am like genuinely and generally curious. I think it being true about me makes my questions better, even if they're not good questions, because you know, I'm coming from a place of that's how I, I really want to know. And so even with like my interviews, I don't, I kind of just ask the things that I want to know. And even if it's at a place with someone where it could be something that's a little personal or it kind of hits a nerve, I feel like for the most part, they don't take offense to it because they know I'm coming from a place of curiosity or caring and not coming from a place to get a click.

• 12:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:54Speaker 02

  Both can be true.

• 12:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 12:55Speaker 02

  But I, I feel like it's not so much my questions, but my intent, because sometimes my questions are bad. But my intent is good. And yeah, I just, I like, I like connecting with people. I feel like even, even doing this, I've made so many friends from doing this and you would think that this is very surface, it's professional, nothing really matters because cameras are on, you do your thing, cameras are off. And it doesn't happen with most, but there, I've made some great friends that have started in this environment because you get really intimate doing this.

• 13:27Speaker 01

  Big time.

• 13:27Speaker 02

  I mean, it's, you're depending on me, I'm depending on you.

• 13:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:31Speaker 02

  It's only us doing this.

• 13:32Speaker 01

  We're doing this together.

• 13:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:33Speaker 02

  And so, yeah, I feel like my questions are fine, but I feel like my curiosity is high, but I think in normal life, I think that counts too. Like, you know, when you talk to people.

• 13:44Speaker 01

  Well, people, I think more people than you think, at least the people I hear from, really struggle a lot with questions. And you're somebody who does it as a, I mean, a master of the craft. I know you could say, all right, my questions aren't, aren't that good. Well, to me, my brain sees that as, okay, well, there's some element of this that's also a skill because it might be self-deprecating. It might be like, hey, I know I'm going to get a lot of this wrong. And what that's doing is saying, I'm no more important than you are and I'm lowering myself. Or maybe it's a joke or maybe it's humor. It's one way to like break the ice because every interview that you give, you're looking

• 14:28Speaker 01

  for that way to kind of remove that polish. I imagine when you, when you're talking to some of the biggest stars, country stars out there, do you find that you have to ask a few questions to kind of get a layer deep? Like it has, it has to be like, you're like, that's a canned answer.

• 14:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm looking for what we have in common that can kind of put the guard down.

• 14:48Speaker 01

  In like a jokey way?

• 14:50Speaker 02

  Not always. Sometimes it can be like real trauma. Sometimes it can be a television show we both like. Sometimes it can be, and I tell you what's worked for me the last past few years is I did that Dancing with the Stars, the dance show. And if somebody comes in and has done that show, and I mentioned to, to you before we started recording, like there's real like trauma bonding in that show.

• 15:09Speaker 01

  I believe it.

• 15:09Speaker 02

  And so I can kind of find our, our like-minded entity and focus on it. And also people, when they don't feel like they're trying to get got, they open up. I'm not trying to got anybody.

• 15:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:26Speaker 02

  You know, sometimes people will give me great stuff, sometimes they won't. But my questions, I don't feel like they're good though. I just feel like, again, I feel like I am genuinely curious. And if something doesn't hit, I have no problem, one, sitting in silence with someone. That's the best trick in any sort of communication. If you have no fear of sitting in silence with someone, they will just talk. And so that works. I've, I've done this so many times that I also know what it's like for things not to go well and I know I can always get it back. So, but I've done it wrong so many times that I know that even if it's going terribly wrong, I can get it back. I've been through some terrible ones that have turned out great. So just doing it so many times.

• 16:09Speaker 02

  But it's also helped in, in like real life as well, like human conversations, like just talking to folks. Cause a little bit I can just turn on the, hey, I'm curious, just going to ask some questions. And I find the like, the thing we have in common, it works like if I'm being, let's say interviewed for a, not even interviewed, but like I'm doing a job interview for a TV show, I'm doing it, I'm in auditioning for something. I can just find like a sports team they like, a shoe they're wearing, something with their kid that I understand. Man, that is the real key to any sort of relaxed conversation is to find what you have in common with that person.

• 16:47Speaker 01

  So I've heard finding something separate from the person is actually a key to that commonality. If it's actually maybe separate from, it's like the third person in the room. For example, Dancing with the Stars could have been something, or maybe I had seen something on your shelf that you were, I don't know, a Houston Astros fan or something where you see it and then that's where you're able to kind of create that bond with.

• 17:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, especially if I know enough about it.

• 17:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:12Speaker 02

  You know, if I'm just like, hey, look at that fish, but I'd never fished, right?

• 17:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:16Speaker 02

  But if you got a fish and I go, hey, I see you caught that fish. Like my stepdad was a striper guide for many years.

• 17:22Speaker 01

  Very cool.

• 17:23Speaker 02

  I can find that thing that puts us in the same place, that allows us to go to the same place together, because I probably didn't come here to talk about fishing.

• 17:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 17:31Speaker 02

  But we can get there much easier if we kind of feel like we're in the same boat.

• 17:33Speaker 01

  Now, I think that then goes into upbringing, what you've been around and how much you just talk to ordinary people. I, I think that, that's where I see it. So I, my background Bobby is a, is a trial attorney. And so the best way I can relate the cases to the jury relating to just human elements of every day, or the ways that maybe I want to get a person, I'm taking their deposition, get them more relaxed, is to use a little bit of humor and know that, yeah, I'm going to get a lot of things wrong. So don't, that, that kind of lowers the, the temperature of it. You said something a minute ago, I want to make sure and pull back on is, you said, I know I can get it back. How, how do, how does somebody correct course and get them back?

• 18:17Speaker 02

  Just keep going. There's no magic, you just keep going.

• 18:21Speaker 01

  People feel like there's magic.

• 18:22Speaker 02

  If you don't quit, it's over.

• 18:24Speaker 01

  Right.

• 18:24Speaker 02

  It's not, if you don't quit, it's not over. And so, yeah, there have been a lot of interviews or just situations that don't go well at the very beginning. But I know I can get it back, just stay in. It's just staying in and trying to find, you know, whatever you have in common with that person. It can be in a professional setting, it could even be, you know, you know, when I was dating my wife, you know, I don't think she wanted to go out with me immediately. I don't know if you've seen us beside each other, it kind of doesn't match. But it, you know, I, and I don't think I was super smooth with her when I first met her, but I just kept trying. And so, yeah, as long as you stay in, regardless of the situation, I think you can get it back. It's just that when it doesn't go well early, we tend to go, this ain't going good, abort mission.

• 19:10Speaker 02

  But I think that's the key, well, I think that's the key to pretty much any success that I've had is just figuring it out as I go, having the confidence to go in and know that it may not work at the beginning.

• 19:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:20Speaker 02

  And then just staying in when it's uncomfortable. So yeah, in this situation, a lot of times, because most people come in, it could be like this, it could be a job interview, people are tight. As soon as it starts, everybody's tight. People are like,

• 19:33Speaker 01

  Oh, they're tense.

• 19:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm about to do a job interview, about to have a job interview, I'm about to do an interview, about, you know, one of these. And so people come in and they're tight. So it's how do we get each other to kind of be on the same place so we can actually get the most out of it? And it's finding whatever it is you have in common.

• 19:48Speaker 01

  Do you think that having, when you're having conversations with like multiple people, if you have Eddie or Amy or Lunchbox in there, that helps?

• 19:56Speaker 02

  Nah, not really. I mean, it depends on what we're trying to do. If I'm trying to like be super sincere, or, or if I'm sad, or I'm, I would rather just do it by myself.

• 20:09Speaker 02

  Certain dynamics, it works wonderfully. Certain, not so much. But, you know, it's, if you're trying to have a real connection, it's hard to do it with seven people sitting around you. Generally speaking, it's much easier if it's, you know, one-on-one, and that one-on-one can be me talking through a microphone to the person listening, or even like to me talking to Amy.

• 20:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:34Speaker 02

  You know, whenever you have people chirping in your ear from the side, it gets to be a little bit more difficult.

• 20:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I can imagine. I wanna, I wanna pause, I wanna bring this back for a moment.

• 20:44Speaker 01

  How would, based on your experience, in the 20-plus years you've been having this, this show, how do you have those harder conversations with friends, especially when you're working with them, to make sure you're not damaging, like you need to make a decision, and sometimes you need to be, I need to say the boss thing, but you also don't want to damage that relationship?

• 21:06Speaker 02

  The boundaries have to be discussed

• 21:11Speaker 02

  many times over, just to be even reinstated, because there are boundaries. The boundaries are, when we're at work, in a work situation, I'm going to be the boss, there's certain, you can, when we're performing, you can do whatever you want to do. But it mostly, it comes to like, everybody else is putting in their time and their effort, you just gotta match that. I mean, that's really what everybody's job is, match everybody else's effort, don't be late, have a good attitude, those type. Other than that, you're good, right? Show up, do your best. If for some reason you're not performing, I will tell you. If I feel like

• 21:52Speaker 02

  someone else having to pick up your slack, I don't like that, and I will tell you. So they understand that I'm going to communicate with them the things that are good and things that are bad, when I'm the boss.

• 22:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:04Speaker 02

  When I'm the friend, who knows? Like, you know, we, Eddie and I go a lot of places together, and we're able to switch back and forth. But if there's something wrong with some content, it's never weird anymore for me to go in and go, hey, this isn't good. Also, I want to be super efficient. I'm not gonna, you know, kind of dance around it. But I think generally speaking, I just kind of operate that way, because we all have things we want to do outside of work, so let's get all the work things done first, and let's do the best that we can do for each other, so we can go be the best we can for our families. Not only that, it's, you know, there's an open rule on our show that if anything is affecting you or bothering you, don't come in. Just, just don't, because if you can't be, you can't be good for me if you're not good for you at home.

• 22:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:48Speaker 02

  So.

• 22:49Speaker 01

  If home's not good, the conversation's not gonna be good.

• 22:51Speaker 02

  Nope.

• 22:52Speaker 01

  It's impossible to not carry.

• 22:53Speaker 02

  Nothing's gonna be good. Yeah, so if you're not good at home, you do not need to come in at all. And I think that's where being a friend

• 22:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:59Speaker 02

  kind of, you know, creeps back into play. Because when you come in, you've gotta be great.

• 23:05Speaker 01

  Right. And it makes you really attuned to the other people if something's off. Because I mean,

• 23:09Speaker 02

  And I can tell when something's off with them immediately, but I think that's the 20-plus years of working together.

• 23:14Speaker 01

  Well, but it also, I think, highlights the significance of, if something's off in the conversation, that's something to take care of first. Usually, when you try and just push through and act like everything's fine, I tend to find that that makes things worse than improve what's about to happen.

• 23:31Speaker 02

  The only person who can come in, sick or affected, is me. Everybody else, stay home. If you're affected, you need to unaffected yourself. If you got.

• 23:39Speaker 01

  Why can't you?

• 23:41Speaker 02

  Oh, I gotta lead the thing.

• 23:42Speaker 01

  You're the captain?

• 23:43Speaker 02

  I gotta, it doesn't, it doesn't move without me. And that's okay. Like, I know my role. They're all depending on me in that, that way. So, yeah, we have a rule, if you're not feeling good, mental or physical, you gotta take care of you before you can come in, because you're not gonna be good for me if you're not good for you.

• 23:57Speaker 01

  Well, what do you do when you don't feel good?

• 23:59Speaker 02

  I feel good.

• 24:01Speaker 01

  Oh, so you just,

• 24:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:03Speaker 01

  is it just a thing?

• 24:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. I gotta be the leader. So, I will find time to feel bad.

• 24:09Speaker 01

  Okay. Hmm, all right, got it. That's harder.

• 24:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's hard.

• 24:15Speaker 01

  Because then, then, if you're not doing it there, your, your outlet's somewhere else.

• 24:20Speaker 02

  It is, but you know, I do a great job of making sure that I'm taking care of myself outside of that room. I'm in therapy twice a week.

• 24:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:31Speaker 02

  Or, or, my wife, I have a therapist that my wife and I go to, a couple of therapists, I have my own therapist, so I'm not going to two different therapists.

• 24:37Speaker 01

  Preach, man, same.

• 24:38Speaker 02

  I'm a big, big therapy guy, so I, I'm doing the things, hopefully, to keep myself mentally ready. I'm also doing the things physically, meaning I know that my diet matters. If I don't eat good, I'm not gonna perform well.

• 24:51Speaker 01

  Right.

• 24:51Speaker 02

  I know that if I'm not exercising, I'm not gonna perform well. I know if I'm not working my brain, and going to therapy, and talking about what's bothering me, and if I'm not reading books, I'm not gonna perform well. So I'm doing all that work ahead of time, that if something does come up, I think I can get through it until my next break. But they're, they're counting on me. I have a staff of like 15, 16 people, that if I don't go, I let down 15 or 16 families. So, I don't take that for granted, and at times, it can be extremely difficult, but in that part, I am the leader. Back home, though, in the home dynamic, my wife is that. My wife is exactly to

• 25:26Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 25:26Speaker 02

  me and our family that I am to that show.

• 25:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:29Speaker 02

  She doesn't feel good a lot of days. We have a new baby. Baby's

• 25:32Speaker 01

  About to say, congratulations.

• 25:34Speaker 02

  nine weeks old. And I know she doesn't feel good sometimes. And, and I'm there and I try to help, but she freaking dials it in and does it. So, you know, in every organization, you gotta have a couple of those. My wife is that at home, I'm that when we're out. I think everybody's that in some, some version, some part of their life.

• 25:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would definitely, just to like, cover you and me, what they do is much harder. I'm just, that's like way harder. This episode is sponsored by Cozy Earth. And for all of you listening, if you are adults, I need to, I need you to lean in and have this conversation with me. It is time. Yes, this is the time in your life, you may not have expected it, that you need to take bedding and towels seriously. Because when people come over to your house, are you as, as an individual human, you deserve nice bed sheets and nice towels. Stop using the stuff that you had in college, or when you were first married, or anything, like, you, you, you deserve some of

• 26:36Speaker 01

  this nice stuff. Because Cozy Earth makes some of the most premium products when it comes to bamboo bed sheeting, and towels that make you wish and think that you're sleeping on a cloud. So, if you are like me, and that is, I'm in this season too, or I gotta take this kind of stuff seriously, you, you cannot ask for any better than Cozy Earth, for both bedding for your bed, and towels for your bathroom. That's all I need to say about that. CozyEarth.com/jefferson, used to go Jefferson, for up to 20% off. That's CozyEarth.com/jefferson, used to go Jefferson for up to 20% off. And now, let's keep going. We handled questions, so we talked about the power of silence. Usually, you get a whole

• 27:21Speaker 01

  lot more. We talked about have a genuine curiosity, maybe even sometimes when you don't feel like it. We talked about some ways that you can kind of get below the surface. When it comes to hard conversations as a leader, not just friends that you've been forever with, I'm talking just anything that there's some kind of crisis, and you guys say, I have to be really direct,

• 27:44Speaker 01

  and not apologize for it. Because I know people will go, look, I'm sorry, I gotta say this, but I gotta, how have you found to be direct in your communication?

• 27:55Speaker 02

  I, I've found that the quicker we can get to the problem and get it solved, the better it is for everybody, even if it's wildly uncomfortable at the beginning.

• 28:02Speaker 01

  Without bringing personality into it?

• 28:03Speaker 02

  No personality at all.

• 28:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, none. How I will do it if there is something uncomfortable to talk about, is, hey, you're not gonna like this, but,

• 28:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:13Speaker 02

  because just by me saying that, it, it, it almost braces them for a few words. Like, this is not gonna be fun to talk about, but, even that, you know, 0.7 seconds of setup allows them to go, okay, we're getting into something that is not comfortable, I'm ready. And sometimes it's not near as bad as they think by me saying that. But that's kind of the precursor, and then I just try to get to it and say it immediately, because neither one of us wanna dick around with trying to figure out what I'm trying to talk about.

• 28:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:42Speaker 02

  So let's figure out the problem, let's address it, let's get through it and get to the other side of it as fast as possible, so we can get back to doing the right things.

• 28:49Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 28:50Speaker 02

  It's very uncomfortable, but it's very uncomfortable for a limited time.

• 28:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 28:53Speaker 02

  And I prefer it to be very uncomfortable for a limited time, than kind of uncomfortable for a long time. Because you can do either one. I've, I've had people that I've worked for, that love to dance around it, I'm gonna, we're gonna talk about three things, the first two are gonna be positive, and then the whole time, I know the third thing's about to be bad, let's just do it.

• 29:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:10Speaker 02

  I don't, I don't really, I don't need the syrup, because I want to figure out what's wrong, fix it, and get back to the good spot. So, there's not a lot of buffer.

• 29:21Speaker 01

  That's how I know you're southern, is you say, I don't need the syrup. That's, that's how I know.

• 29:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, no syrup, and there's no buffer, because I don't feel like, for me, that's healthy, to either hear it or give it. So, it can be uncomfortable, it should be uncomfortable, because whatever it is, is an uncomfortable thing that we're talking about.

• 29:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 29:37Speaker 02

  So, let's get to the point, and then let's get off of it, because we just fixed it. How awesome is it that we can fix it? And I think now, too, my people know that. They know I'm not gonna come in and, hey, how's the dog? And then hit them with some bad news. If I'm really asking about the dog, they know I'm curious about the dog.

• 29:54Speaker 01

  Right.

• 29:54Speaker 02

  That I'm not setting them up for something where I'm gonna be like, well, your performance has been bad, we might have to fire you.

• 29:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:59Speaker 02

  So, that's how I do it. It's like, all right, this is not gonna be comfortable to talk about, and then I say it immediately, because once it's out there, it's easier to fix.

• 30:07Speaker 01

  More than you know, I love that approach. Because I, what I preach is, the kindest thing you can do is be as direct as you can be. Like, the more I string you along, the more painful it's going to be.

• 30:20Speaker 02

  For both of you.

• 30:21Speaker 01

  Oh, without a doubt. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you, do you mind if I share the version that I use?

• 30:25Speaker 02

  I would love to hear it.

• 30:27Speaker 01

  So it's very similar to yours. It's, I know this is, I know this isn't gonna be fun to talk about, and we're gonna do it together. That's what I add. Whenever I add the, and we're gonna do it together, instead of the but, it tells them that, hey, you and me, we're gonna like lock in for a moment. There's gonna be an end, there's gonna be a beginning, and this is not me leaving you to say, Bad you, good me. I'm saying I'm separating out the problem from both of us. This is gonna be uncomfortable to talk about and we're gonna do it together. That's what I have found, at least. So this from my two cents.

• 31:04Speaker 02

  I have found, and I mean it when I say it, is that when I'm done saying what the issue is, because if I were to say, uh, this is not gonna be fun, Russ Jefferson, but A, B, and C is happening. That is not good. We need to fix it, but I believe in you.

• 31:21Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 31:22Speaker 02

  Like, and it may sound hokey, but if I didn't believe in you, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. We would just move on. I'd move on to somebody else that I think could do a better job, a quicker job.

• 31:32Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 31:32Speaker 02

  Make it easier for me.

• 31:33Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 31:34Speaker 02

  But the fact that I'm having that conversation means that I do believe in you. So this wasn't good, but I believe in you. So let's make it good.

• 31:42Speaker 01

  So good.

• 31:42Speaker 02

  That, that works a lot.

• 31:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:44Speaker 02

  Because again, everybody, everybody's kind of feeling like they don't want to be there.

• 31:49Speaker 01

  Oh, no doubt. I like, I'm telling you this because I believe in you. I'm telling you this because I know you can handle it.

• 31:55Speaker 02

  Oh, that's a good one. I know you can handle it.

• 31:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, that type of stuff is like, it empowers them to go, oh yeah, okay, whatever he's about to say. He said, I can handle it. So, so I am.

• 32:05Speaker 02

  That's a good one. That's a good build up.

• 32:06Speaker 01

  To be able to kind of like push that a lot. But I think it, um, what we're talking about hits the very home of a lot of small businesses, a lot of families, uh, anybody listening that can apply these kind of frameworks to very difficult conversation. The other thing I wanted to make sure and hmm, push a little bit is when it, when you don't have, you don't feel like there's any chemistry with that person you're asking questions to. Let's say you're having an interviewer, you're having an interview. Let me rephrase that. You're taking an interview, you have somebody across from you and there's just no compatibility.

• 32:47Speaker 01

  Are there certain like tethers? You're trying to like, please let me find something that we can tackle along with.

• 32:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, I just take over and start talking myself. Especially if we're, if we're doing like one of these and

• 32:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:59Speaker 02

  let's say I'm getting nothing from you, or you may not be feeling good. Like, I don't know the reasons that we're not connecting. Um, I will then just start talking and entertaining myself and you're just now part of the audience.

• 33:10Speaker 01

  That's smart.

• 33:10Speaker 02

  And then it's do a lot of

• 33:12Speaker 01

  That's business too. I mean, you have to, yeah.

• 33:14Speaker 02

  You know, we got an hour, we gotta fill and you're not giving me much. I know the person that's watching, you know, they're not liking it or they're

• 33:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 33:20Speaker 02

  So I'm just gonna tell stories. And so you're, you're welcome to hop in, but that happens occasionally. If like you're like, if you're watching my podcast ever, or listening to my podcast and I'm interviewing somebody.

• 33:30Speaker 01

  Which is Bobby Cass, by the way.

• 33:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, thank you. Um, and you hear me just start to just talk and tell stories. It means for whatever reason, we're not connecting right then.

• 33:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:40Speaker 02

  A lot of times though, it does turn into

• 33:42Speaker 01

  It'll pick up.

• 33:42Speaker 02

  Yep. Because the person will then hear me talk about something and find something that they want to talk back about and go into it.

• 33:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:48Speaker 02

  So yeah, that's been a technique that I've learned.

• 33:50Speaker 01

  I think that's really smart because sometimes you're just not vibing. You go, hey, let me tell you a story. You know, the other day I was doing this and and they go, well, I, I didn't have anything to say back then, but I do have a story because it's much easier to relay stories a lot of times than it is to give the back and forth kind of small talk. And I think conversation can be really hard for people, but telling stories, I think is kind of timeless. So it's a lot easier to hit that default.

• 34:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's what we do. If like, we're just sitting around with friends too, right? We're just telling stories and everybody jumps in. So if someone is not giving me what I feel like is good for both of us, I'm just gonna entertain for a while until you like something in my story and you're gonna hop in and give me your version of it. Or you're just gonna sit there quietly.

• 34:34Speaker 01

  Or not.

• 34:35Speaker 02

  And, and that doesn't, doesn't happen often where they just want to sit there quietly.

• 34:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I can imagine. I think that, you know, when I think of radio hosts, which when I was a kid, uh, that's who I wanted to be actually when I grew up. Cause I was like, how awesome. They just get to talk all the time. I think that radio hosts have to have a different gear. Like they have to be able to put conversation in a different gear because you can keep the ball in the air totally by yourself. Does, if something were to go wrong or you realize somebody's, nobody's giving you anything to go, okay, I need to lock in and fill 20 minutes or whatever it is and to talk nonstop really with hardly any likes or ums or ahs. Is that a skill that you've learned over time or you always felt like?

• 35:20Speaker 02

  It's helped with improvisational work.

• 35:23Speaker 01

  Improv?

• 35:23Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, just it's all improv, right? So lots of likes and ums still, but

• 35:31Speaker 02

  I went to American Idol, you know, I was over there for four years and I think one of the things that allowed me to stay there for more than a year was the fact that they knew if something broke down, they could just go, hey, throw it over to Bobby. And I think that was developed through doing long form content with, you know, having to fill five, seven, 12, 18 minutes at a time.

• 35:51Speaker 01

  That's hard.

• 35:52Speaker 02

  It's hard. It's now pretty natural for me. Like if everything crashed around here and you're like, hey, can you kill 12 minutes? I got like four stories I can go to immediately that I've just naturally got, you know, saved up to, to go to. But it has helped me in that way. I mean, there was a time, I think it was my second year on American Idol. And again, that's really why they kept me around. Um, it was the week where everybody comes to Hollywood and you're just like, it's just cutting people left and right like crazy. It's literally called Hollywood week. And the celebrities then come in and they, they sing as part of that. And we're like seven minutes from going on the air.

• 36:34Speaker 02

  And I'm not the main guy. I'm like fourth string. I'm on every episode, but I'm just like helping like the the young people pick songs and mentoring them. And they were, they said, hey, Ryan is sick. He's not gonna be able to come and do the show. And I was like, oh yeah, cool. So we punting till next week? Like, no, we need you to host the show. And from what I've learned is the only people to ever host that show are Ryan and Brian Knocman from the first season. But it was so close to the show starting. They were like, hey, we need you to hop up there and host the show and be able to fill, there was no rehearsal. But like I was, I don't want to say born to do that, but I've trained to do that. I think doing live

• 37:15Speaker 02

  long form content on the radio has trained me to be put in those situations and be fine. Even, you know, doing standup and I toured pretty, pretty hard for like three years where if things broke down and they did often, I'm fine. Like I've been through it and been put in situations that were really uncomfortable and I've gotten out of them. This is only mildly uncomfortable. So I'm fine. I'll get out of this one.

• 37:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:41Speaker 02

  So yeah, the, the improvisational gear is pretty easy to switch into at this point.

• 37:48Speaker 01

  I find that a lot of anybody's improv or comics that just have no, no fear at all of bombing or because they've just done it enough where they can just roll.

• 37:58Speaker 02

  I think there's a lot of fear, but we've learned, I've learned

• 38:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:04Speaker 02

  that it's not good to, it actually affects performance if you're so fearful. So you're deathly afraid at first, but you survive.

• 38:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:14Speaker 02

  It's like life. Crap happens.

• 38:16Speaker 01

  Right.

• 38:16Speaker 02

  You survive. So you feel like when crap happens again, you could probably get through that too.

• 38:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 38:21Speaker 02

  Like that, that's a metaphor for, for life.

• 38:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, for everything.

• 38:26Speaker 02

  So yeah, it's, everybody's afraid. I don't know a single person in the creative space that isn't wildly insecure and completely scared.

• 38:33Speaker 01

  That's probably true.

• 38:34Speaker 02

  It's just

• 38:35Speaker 01

  Welcome to the club, y'all.

• 38:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, we've done it for so long, so many times that we're still that, but we've gotten through really hard things. So we're really not scared of those, those medium hard things anymore because we've gotten through it and done just fine.

• 38:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. And you still, you're still here.

• 38:49Speaker 02

  We're still here.

• 38:50Speaker 01

  You think that, um, when you go, okay, I, I know that

• 38:57Speaker 01

  I, I have to fill this X amount of time. Has there been any trick that you've learned outside of just doing it forever that you know, okay, I'm gonna keep maybe at all times. I just have stories locked and loaded that should I need to, I gotta do it. Because I can only imagine when you're running your show, you have, you're thinking of eight different things. Not only the question you're going to ask, but how this is looking or how they're performing. And because at some, some level, you're having to think about the, the output and to know, okay, I have to, it's like you're, you're producing it in your mind.

• 39:30Speaker 02

  I'm producing it at the same time.

• 39:32Speaker 01

  Constantly.

• 39:32Speaker 02

  Yep. I, I feel like to do an I story, if everything goes wrong, helps me all the time. Cause that's what I know about I. So if it all breaks down, the first thing I'm gonna go to is I see or feel this and here's why. Um, if I'm just describing things generically, that never works. But if I go right to the I, that's the one thing I do know about.

• 39:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:53Speaker 02

  Me. So I'm good. I can I you all day in any situation. It may take me five, seven seconds to get my bearings, but you know, once I'm on, I, I think generally the most comfortable thing is to talk about ourselves. We know it. We know ourselves in any situation. If you're like, I don't really know what to talk about here, talk about I because you know it. You're comfortable talking about it. You're not guessing.

• 40:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. Is there something that you find hard that kind of turn off in your brain?

• 40:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, all, I have trouble sleeping.

• 40:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:23Speaker 02

  I've

• 40:26Speaker 02

  For a couple of reasons, I think everybody says, you know, my thoughts spin. I go to sleep with a podcast in my ear. Because if I just lay in silence, I tend to spiral out.

• 40:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:41Speaker 02

  So I will listen to a podcast when I go to sleep. I have trouble sleeping. I also have like some PTSD. You know, when I started to have any success in this job, it was weird. Cause I think for me, I've been able to start at the bottom and I worked in a really small town in Hot Springs, Arkansas, and nobody knew or cared. But then, once I started to have a little more success and people would kind of care, then people were kind of weird. There's a couple, then there's a couple weirdos. It's out of none. And then when I got a little, a little more popular and the show started to branch out nationally, then it wasn't that the percentage of weirdos went up, but there's just more people.

• 41:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:20Speaker 02

  And so I, you know, I got jumped outside of work. I had my house broken into while I was on the air. I got held at gunpoint outside of an event once. I've had multiple death threats. So I had some really bad PTSD for a long time.

• 41:36Speaker 01

  That makes complete sense.

• 41:37Speaker 02

  And I tried it all. I mean, I, I don't drink, never had alcohol or tried a drug or anything because of my family's addiction problems. So I'm always really nervous about taking anything with, that could trigger any sort of addiction or dependence.

• 41:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:56Speaker 02

  And so my doctor knows that. My doctors, and I remember I was really struggling with sleeping after I, the last time I got jumped at work. And we tried everything. We tried all the holistic, didn't work. I need chemicals, man.

• 42:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:12Speaker 02

  And we tried, finally he was like, you know, we can finally go, we can do sleeping pills. I'd never tried a sleeping pill before. And I was like, man, I don't know. He said, you're right. But I was getting so sick because I wasn't sleeping.

• 42:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:24Speaker 02

  You don't sleep, you don't drink water.

• 42:25Speaker 01

  Oh, it's the worst.

• 42:25Speaker 02

  You break down.

• 42:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:27Speaker 02

  And so I took sleeping pills for a little bit. And man, they work, but there were full nights. I would look at my phone. I had FaceTimed like seven people. I don't remember any of it.

• 42:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:40Speaker 02

  I drove off with my gas, the gas pump in my car once, you know, like, just like in TV.

• 42:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. So this isn't good.

• 42:46Speaker 02

  This, yeah, yeah, it wasn't good. So I've tried a lot of things. I've tried MDMA, you know, a lot of therapy.

• 42:54Speaker 02

  It's hard to shut off at night for a couple of reasons. One, safety, but also like I just have this constant fear of everything crashing down that I've built.

• 43:07Speaker 01

  At any moment.

• 43:07Speaker 02

  At any moment.

• 43:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:09Speaker 02

  My wife is great because she constantly reminds me that if I'm fired today and I never work again, we're good. But my mind doesn't work like that.

• 43:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:18Speaker 02

  My mind is if we're not going as hard right now, I could end up back where I was.

• 43:23Speaker 01

  That's where I was, like, is it a, what they call kind of a scarcity mindset where it's like I'm, I could lose it all and I'm gonna, I don't want to go back there.

• 43:33Speaker 02

  That's for sure what it is. Like we have a rule in our show, you can't be late. Meaning if you're one minute late, you should go home. You get sent home. It's, it's happened on our show for 10 years at this point.

• 43:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. Guests too?

• 43:45Speaker 02

  I've sent guests home. I have sent guests home. I give them a little bit more.

• 43:50Speaker 01

  Grace.

• 43:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's a little more flexibility. Yeah, that gets to, but I've sent guests home if they're really late.

• 43:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:57Speaker 02

  But we have that rule and I, I've never been late to my job once in my entire life.

• 44:01Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 44:02Speaker 02

  But it's not a bragging thing. I'm so scared of being late because if I'm late, the show will struggle. If the show struggles, I will lose my job. If I lose my job, I will have no money. If I have no money, I end up back in the trailer park where I started.

• 44:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:15Speaker 02

  Right? Like it's all.

• 44:16Speaker 01

  Safety seeking.

• 44:16Speaker 02

  All rooted in that. Yeah.

• 44:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:18Speaker 02

  It's not rational.

• 44:19Speaker 01

  No, but that's, but, but that doesn't make it any less real.

• 44:22Speaker 02

  And I can look at it and identify it as irrational, but again, it doesn't make it any less real.

• 44:28Speaker 01

  No.

• 44:29Speaker 02

  And I can go to therapy twice a week.

• 44:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:32Speaker 02

  But at least I can acknowledge that it exists now where I don't think I could for a long time.

• 44:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, that's, I mean, for anybody listening, like this is, that's what triggers are like, I mean, to bring your nervous system back to, back in Arkansas.

• 44:45Speaker 02

  I have complete fear-based success.

• 44:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:48Speaker 02

  That's all my success is. It's completely fear-based. It's, it's a superhero. It's a super, super power.

• 44:54Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 44:55Speaker 02

  At the same time.

• 44:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:56Speaker 02

  So I'm not saying like anybody should feel sorry for me. Like I am so grateful that I have been able to develop that superpower instead of any of the others that like my family went through.

• 45:05Speaker 01

  Easily could have been. Yeah, for sure. It's definitely that it's the, the thing that you got, found success is also the thing that saved you. Kind of that there's that paradox of it because you wouldn't be the same person without it. Thanks for coming on the show.

• 45:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. Thanks for having me.

• 45:20Speaker 01

  Thanks.

• 45:21Speaker 03

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