Dave Ramsey: "How To Actually Change Their Behavior"

The conversations you've been avoiding rarely get easier—they just get more expensive. In this episode, I sit down with Dave Ramsey to talk about what it really takes to tell the truth with kindness, navigate disagreement without making it personal, and have the conversations most people spend years avoiding. If you want to communicate with more confidence, lead with more clarity, and stop letting fear keep you silent, this episode will give you the tools to do it. Join me on Supercast for ad-free episodes, bonus content, and AMAs: https://jefferson.supercast.com/ Leave me a voicemail to be featured on the show! https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/ask-jefferson Order The Next Conversation Workbook: https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/workbook Thank you to our sponsors: Masa Chips. Get 25% off at https://www.masachips.com/pages/jefferson AG1: Visit https://drinkag1.com/jefferson to get a free Morning Person Hat and free AG1 Flavor Sampler in your Welcome Kit with your first AG1 subscription. BetterHelp. Click https://betterhelp.com/jeffersonfisher for a discount on your first month of therapy. Order my book, The Next Conversation, or listen to the full audiobook today. Like what you hear? Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a 5-star review! Suggest a topic or ask a question for me to answer on the show! Want a FREE communication tip each week? Click here to join my newsletter. Join My School of Communication Watch my podcast on YouTube Follow me on Instagram Follow me on TikTok Follow me on LinkedIn Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' health care to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the HouseMajorityPac.com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 0:31Speaker 01

  Fall never arrives all at once. First the air, then the light. And slowly, the things you love begin to find each other. A jacket meets a dress. A hoodie slips beneath a blazer. An old cap finds a new scarf. Because you don't simply step into the season. You create it, layer by layer, until it finally feels like fall. Find fall your way at Ross.

• 0:59Speaker 02

  An organization that does not have healthy conflict is not being well-run. It's a bureaucrat. It's everybody, it's little robots following rules, and it's a cult. And that's, you're not getting your best ideas.

• 1:13Speaker 03

  It's not healthy.

• 1:14Speaker 02

  Yeah. Healthy, by definition, involves conflict.

• 1:16Speaker 03

  How do you deal with somebody who thinks they're always right?

• 1:19Speaker 02

  Um, like me?

• 1:23Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, obviously, no one's always right.

• 1:26Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:26Speaker 02

  But the, um, but to the extent you're aligned, in my world, to the extent I'm aligned with scripture, I'm aligned with a universal truth of some kind, then, uh, then that thing is always right.

• 1:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:39Speaker 02

  And so, in that case, in that thing, I'm always right. Um, but in terms of every situation or every single nuance in your life, no one, obviously, is. And so, anyone that thinks that has psychological problems. And so, uh, there's a lack of humility or a lack of, um, grasping. But I am, uh, not confused about why I've placed my values where I've placed them, and that they are the truth. That's different than Dave is always right.

• 2:08Speaker 03

  Yeah. And that's, that's what I'm hearing of this, what I called unshakable a minute ago, is you've said, okay, I'm putting this value in a box that it isn't a glass box that is not to ever be removed. This is what I know to be true because this is in alignment with my value. And...

• 2:29Speaker 02

  And I've got social proof, proof text in the marketplace to say, just to back it up.

• 2:33Speaker 03

  For sure. But is, is there a cost to being the person that wants to die on every hill?

• 2:38Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, I, I think that's the, um, immaturity, usually, is what that is, that, um, a lack of experience because you're gonna end up getting the snot beat out of you at some point if you do that. I mean, it's gonna be...

• 2:52Speaker 03

  Life will do it for you.

• 2:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, life's gonna teach you that that's not worth doing. And, um, so, uh...

• 2:59Speaker 03

  How do you do that? How do you not be the person? Well, let me ask. How do you know whether

• 3:07Speaker 03

  that hill is worth dying on? It's worth planting your flag in?

• 3:15Speaker 02

  I think you never know 100%. I don't, anyway. Some people do, maybe, but I don't. Um, uh, what I'm assessing is, is that, you know, how far do you want to take something? How far do you, how far against the law do you want to push this thing? Um, is, for me, it, it's based on what's the cost of, uh, of surrendering that? If you're surrendering that, are you surrendering what you believe to be true? And so, you're being insincere by quitting. You know? But if you're going, you know, I don't know if we're right or not, but, eh, feels right.

• 3:59Speaker 02

  You know, that's a different thing than, um, you know, if you're gonna attack my family, uh, then that's a hill we'll die on.

• 4:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 4:09Speaker 02

  You know, that's, that's a non-negotiable. You're gonna attack my faith, I'm not gonna back off on that. That's not, that's not a, that's a non-negotiable. Uh, my, my freedoms, as an American, you're gonna steal from me? That's a non-negotiable. Uh, but, um, arguing over which color of carpet to put in the bedroom?

• 4:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 4:31Speaker 02

  Or what type of wood floor to put down? This is an argument we might have had at the Ramsey House. That's not a hill worth dying on.

• 4:38Speaker 03

  Right. Yeah, so if you put it like at, at home or, uh, even at work and, and in your business, how do you, how do you determine whether something is worth sticking up for or saying, actually, you know what? I'm just gonna...

• 4:57Speaker 02

  Well, does it change? If we walk away from it, does it fundamentally change who we say we are?

• 5:01Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 5:03Speaker 02

  If it does, then it was, we should have had that fight. We should have stayed in the fight. But if it's like, okay, there's three or four possible ways to execute this business model, and we're just arguing about which play to call to put the ball in the end zone, then that's a good argu, that's a healthy business argument among peers, and we have those all the time. Because, and we respect each other, respect each other's intellect, business acumen, uh, integrity, intent, those kinds of things in our leadership team. And then we just sit there and have this wonderful argument to get to, okay, are we gonna pass? Are we gonna hand the ball off? Or which way are we gonna do this? This entree leadership thing? Which way are we gonna do this, this, uh, you know, this, uh, every dollar thing?

• 5:47Speaker 02

  All the products and things that we're doing in the marketplace? There's, there's all kinds of things there. But if, if something's coming against us that fundamentally is asking us to surrender a value in order to go that direction, that one, you know, that's when you're, that's what your value system is for. It's what your core values are for. It's what your mission statement is for.

• 6:09Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 6:09Speaker 02

  Is you have to, it's describing not only who you are, but more importantly, it's describing who you aren't.

• 6:14Speaker 03

  Ooh, yeah, I hear you. I, I want to go, because I like talking in the big theories. I also love crunching on, like, the very practical. Here's, if I could, if I could type it up, here's what we would do. You use this phrase, and I love it. How would, how do you have a wonderful argument?

• 6:40Speaker 02

  Well, we're arguing about the problem. It's not personal. And if I have to hurl personal insults at you, then that, you know, we've, we've, we've lost the, including, and you teach this. I've watched you beautifully.

• 6:53Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 6:53Speaker 02

  As a matter of fact, I've learned a lot from watching, just watching your reels and stuff. And before, we were friends, even. Um, and so, but that's the thing. It's, okay, how can we navigate this situation in such a way that, uh, the people can retain their dignity that are in the argument? But healthy conflict is organizational conflict. Uh, an organization that does not have healthy conflict is not being well-run. It's a, uh, it's a bureaucrat. It's everybody, it's little robots following rules, and it's a cult. And that's, it, you're not getting your best ideas.

• 7:30Speaker 03

  It's not healthy.

• 7:31Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's, healthy, by definition, involves conflict. It just, good conflict, and good conflict is not a personal insult, not questioning someone's personal value as a human being, like, you're so stupid, you can't breathe. Why'd you say that? That's not, that's not the kind of argument we have, right? But this is like, I can say, that's the dumbest idea I think I've seen this week. I can do that. And I have said that. And people have said that about my ideas, too. And we laugh and talk about it. And, you know, but we trust everyone. You, you've gotta build this extreme trust in the room, and you do that with time and with the quality of humans you have in the room in a leadership team. And we do everything by, uh, consensus. We do everything by, uh, you know, collaboration,

• 8:15Speaker 02

  I think we call it today, more than anything else. And, and so, you know, uh, you know, John Deloney, our mutual friends on our team. And so, it's not unusual for me and Deloney and a couple of other of the big personalities and the leadership team and some of the content people be in a room, and we're talking about, you know, a, a content piece or something, a talk we're building or a, looking at a, a book someone's working on. And we just, we just wear it out together. And no one walks away going, you know, my feelings are really hurt. Because it's like, everybody understands, we love you so much, we want that thing to work. And we're all gonna give everything we got. And the, if you just keep putting the sandpaper to it,

• 9:00Speaker 02

  it'll polish.

• 9:01Speaker 03

  What I'm hearing is, so first, if you want to have an argument that improves, whether it's your work or your life, an argument that improves, what you've called a wonderful argument, the first thing we want to do is attack the problem, not the person.

• 9:14Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 9:15Speaker 03

  The second one I'm hearing is, you have to create an environment of trust. And that also means an environment of safety. That they can lock horns with you and have it out, and knowing that you want the best for them. You love them, you want the best. Your goals are aligned. That's the only way that trust happens, is if the goals are aligned and say, hey, we're creating a sandbox here, and we're gonna have different ideas and see different things. But this is, this is in the good of not only each other, but the other. So I feel...

• 9:49Speaker 02

  And when someone's as over-the-top in-your-face a personality as I am, um, I not only have to invite permission for them to lock horns, it's a requirement to be in the room that you have to be willing to lock horns.

• 10:05Speaker 03

  Tell me more about that.

• 10:06Speaker 02

  Well, because you have to push past that fear thing. Because, I mean, I love to argue. And, and it's a great way to get to a, a solution.

• 10:16Speaker 03

  You're just sharpening.

• 10:17Speaker 02

  But only if everybody in the room is safe, and only if everybody steps in. Because if somebody sits over there and holds their stuff and they don't put it in the middle of the table while everybody else is beating stuff in the middle of the table, the best idea still hadn't made it out yet. And if they're holding it because, you know, like, Dave invited me to Lockhorns, but did he really mean it? And, you know, no, I more than meant it. I require, I mean, if you can't come to the table and, you know, put everything you got in there, then you don't need to be in that room.

• 10:47Speaker 03

  Do you respect people more when they argue with you?

• 10:48Speaker 02

  Oh, absolutely. It's, it's like I just said, it's a requirement. I mean, it's, and, and different personality styles are going to come out that different, and that's fine. You know, so, I mean, you, you know, my daughter Rachel really well, and she more like in a, you know, the family is owns Ramsey, and so the family's sitting in the operating board. And, you know, there's 10 of our top senior executives, including Rachel and Daniel and some of the family members. But she's the one, she's more like me than the other three, than the other two kids. And so, you know, she and I have some fabulous arguments, but we do not, I, I do not use my dad voice on her. And she doesn't roll her eyes like a petulant teenager. She's a grown woman that has very good business acumen and is

• 11:31Speaker 02

  unbelievably articulate. So she's fabulous to argue with.

• 11:35Speaker 03

  Yeah. And how does that feel?

• 11:36Speaker 02

  Oh, I love it. It, it means I'm a great dad that I've built one of those. I mean, as far as I'm concerned, that's just incredible. I mean, she's confident, competent, poised. The other kids are too. They're just different styles. And so they're, you know, my son Daniel's a little bit more like, he's gonna be more like my wife. He's gonna try to make it your idea. Make you think it was your idea instead of his idea. And Rachel's like, no, I'm right, you know. And so, but the different personality styles around the room are the same thing. It's not just the kids, but not just Gen 2 Ramsey, but the, um, these are 40 year old people, so they're not children.

• 12:09Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 12:10Speaker 02

  The, um, but the people in the room are the same thing. I mean, there's some of them that are real loud, like me, or gregarious or whatever. And then there's some that are very detailed and they want to sit and think, they need more time to process before they do it. And that's not emotional fear. It's just they're processors instead of reactors, that kind of thing.

• 12:29Speaker 03

  Before we can go in, I want to take a moment to tell you about masa chips. I don't know about you, but I have certainly eaten my weight in tortilla chips for salsa. And I look down and see just how much tortilla chips I've eaten. And then I see all the stuff that's in them. All the seed oils, preservatives, all that junk that you don't need. Masa chips, this is how good this is, y'all. I'm, I'm, I'm giving an ad for some chips because they're that good. As soon as they go through the door, my kids devour them. Best thing I like about masa chips is that there's no seed oils. It's all 100% organic corn. And it's beef tallow. It's beef tallow. So you know, everything in them,

• 13:11Speaker 03

  everything that's in them is good for you. And you can absolutely crush a bag of these masa chips. And you still feel awesome. My favorite flavor is probably lime. And I would probably like churro, but my kids eat them before I can even really have more than one chip. So they're also awesome. They come in a ton of different flavors. They're wonderful. They are the chip that I go to. And I, yeah, they're, I fully support masa chips. If you are like me, and you enjoy good chips for your salsa that get together and fajita party, go to masa chips.com slash Jefferson, use code Jefferson for up to 25% off. Masa

• 13:53Speaker 03

  chips.com slash Jefferson, use the code Jefferson for up to 25% off. You will not regret it. And now, let's get back to the episode. We've talked about, if you want to have an argument that improves your life, we've talked about attacking the problem, not the person. We, um, meaning the content, not, not their character. And we've talked about that element of trust and how conflict is a requirement. I mean, you respect people more when they're able to actually voice those kinds of things. What, what else creates a, a wonderful argument, an argument that

• 14:32Speaker 03

  improves? I think there's a lot to be said for, um, the ability to disagree the right way.

• 14:44Speaker 02

  Yeah. Um, I get the most value out of these, it sounds like some kind of knockdown hillbilly drag out or something. That's not what I'm talking about. But I get the most value out of one of these healthy discussions, these lively discussions, we can call it.

• 15:00Speaker 03

  Are they loud?

• 15:01Speaker 02

  Um, sometimes.

• 15:03Speaker 03

  They spirited?

• 15:04Speaker 02

  Sometimes. Um, it's good when someone believes something deeply enough that they become spirited about it. Which makes you, that always gives the, everybody else in the room pause and goes, that can move the room. That can tilt the room. When someone actually, that just came out of your belly, not your head. That was good. You know, I like that.

• 15:26Speaker 03

  It came out of your belly. I like that.

• 15:28Speaker 02

  And so that came out of who you are. And, and again, the longer we've walked together, whoever is in the room has walked together, the higher level this trust is, and the higher level of respect is. And one of the things that I've loved about that situation is I've got folks in the room that have these, uh, particular, uh, in, in this case, we're talking about business, but business talents. Um, like, like for instance, our CTO, I mean, technical guy, right? And so he sees things through project management eyes. He sees things through, um, working with developers for 30 years and software engineers, you know, and that's a different mindset. And so anytime we get into something that that

• 16:10Speaker 02

  type of, uh, thinking really adds value, this guy's really talented in that. And so it's like, I love having someone that is just stone cold, lights out, way better than me at something.

• 16:28Speaker 03

  Somebody wicked smart.

• 16:30Speaker 02

  And, yeah, wicked, wicked smart. And they, and their discipline in particular, their thing. And they drop that in there. And it's, they're almost intimidating because they're so stinking good about that thing. And then we land on, you know, what the, the thing we're working on, that adds value to, oh, that's the sweet spot.

• 16:49Speaker 03

  Yeah. Makes me think of the value of having a voice, like you need resistance, not only in your life, but also in the decisions that you make of, I, I know what I'm good at, and what I'm not great at. And that's what Sierra does for me. Her, like you, I mean, I have a counterpart that she thinks three times my speed. I mean, before I could get out a word, she's already thought out eight different scenarios of what I'm about to say. I need that kind of voice. And to where, if we want to talk about an argument

• 17:29Speaker 03

  that improves, of having voices that are different and are more talented than yours.

• 17:36Speaker 02

  That's exactly what I'm saying. Yep, exactly.

• 17:39Speaker 03

  How have you seen that?

• 17:40Speaker 02

  Better way of phrasing it, yes.

• 17:42Speaker 03

  How have you seen that work out?

• 17:43Speaker 02

  Oh, fabulously. Because if everybody in the room is as dumb as me, how are we going to get a better solution than I could have got by myself, right? So it's gotta be some people smarter than me. And that's not hard, really, in a lot of areas. I mean, I don't know anything about the technical stuff. There's two guys that work for me that all they do is fix all the computers I break. So it's like, oh my gosh. I'm zero talent in that area. Details. I'm not a detail person. But, um, reading room, people skills, those kinds of things. Yeah, that, these are things that I've answered questions live on the air, you know, for 40,000 hours or something, you know, it's a lot. I've got, I've got a lot of, lot of, made a lot of mistakes, but I've also had a lot of experience

• 18:27Speaker 02

  sitting there listening to, oh, they paused too long. That's not the truth.

• 18:32Speaker 03

  No. Yeah. Before we get into, I want to talk specifically in your mindset in these calls, the, the show that it's been running how long now?

• 18:41Speaker 02

  Uh, 30, let me think, 90, 92, so whatever that comes out, 34 years.

• 18:46Speaker 03

  Long time. I, um, I want to make sure that we kind of cap this. I love the phrase, having a wonderful argument. I hadn't heard that before. And so, is the attacking the, the problem of the person, being able to create that element of trust, and three, appreciating voices that aren't yours, being able to see those as the asset rather than the, the deterrent. And I think that's a, I think that's a wonderful model.

• 19:19Speaker 02

  And, you know, I'll add one to that, that, that, um, is

• 19:26Speaker 02

  It's not only someone has business acumen or

• 19:32Speaker 02

  an experience level in a particular discipline, but sometimes it's someone that came from a completely different

• 19:40Speaker 02

  culture.

• 19:44Speaker 02

  Or mindset, or, you know, race. Sometimes they did get a completely different view on something that I have zero empathy for because I had no idea existed. You know, and it's like, wow, that's a whole new way of that's a different door of the barn. We can try and go in that door. I never thought of that. And that adds tremendous value too. So, you know, I think diversity has been destroyed and worn out and all of that kind of thing. But diversity in the room is a good way to get the best ideas. Not, not for diversity sake and not for woke or not for political correctness or any of that, but just because

• 20:27Speaker 02

  if you grew up in that neighborhood, thinking that way with that group of people, and I grew up in this neighborhood, you know, I'm a hillbilly from the south. It's a redneck and that doesn't mean I'm dumb, but it just means I don't know about if you grew up in the ganglands of LA or something. I don't, I don't even, my brain doesn't function that way. Or, you know, or you grew up in Argentina, you know, my brain doesn't think the same way. And so it's, it's, that adds some, that adds some color to it.

• 20:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think that adds. I think it,

• 21:01Speaker 03

  I think it speaks to the idea of being willing to listen, to, to understand that you can have, you can, you can still believe what you know to be right in your heart and also know when to say that you're wrong, you know, when to, when to be able to

• 21:20Speaker 03

  not just say that you're open minded, but that practice what it is to be open minded. And that usually is.

• 21:27Speaker 02

  Well, and it's, you know, understand the value of that. It's not just for the sake of virtue signaling or something like that. It's like, this is actually valuable to, to my life and to the other lives we're trying to help.

• 21:41Speaker 03

  When you go into these calls and you've been running your radio show for forever, I feel like it, as long, almost as long as a little bit older more than I've been alive is

• 21:55Speaker 03

  what's your mindset when you first listen into this person? Because you don't see them face to face, you hear them. And that to me is different because you get to kind of paint in your mind what they look like, who they are. You get those very quick snapshots. What, what's the first thing that you, where does your mind first go to when you hear their voice?

• 22:18Speaker 02

  You know, the fact that it is audio only, it's almost as if you've,

• 22:25Speaker 02

  like if you lost your sight.

• 22:27Speaker 03

  Right.

• 22:28Speaker 02

  You know, you'd have to,

• 22:31Speaker 02

  you, you, you, you don't have the disadvantage of judging their shoes, their rings, their makeup, their clothing.

• 22:39Speaker 03

  Their facial expressions.

• 22:40Speaker 02

  Or, you know, you're not misled by, or properly can, the disadvantage is you can't, body language is obviously more powerful than verbal. We all know that, but the, but you don't have the disadvantage of that. So you have, the advantage is you have to hone in on the speech pattern. And the, I didn't know I was doing it for a long time. I've thought about it a lot though, since I've been doing it a long time. But for a while I was just listening and answering the question, listening, answering the question. And I went to a Bible study and the guy gave me a Hebrew word, which I have now forgotten. Shema or something like that, but it means to get behind the words.

• 23:25Speaker 02

  What's really going on behind the words? Cause the, they're giving you, they're presenting almost like they're their social media version of themselves with these words, right? Which is not a true picture of what's really going on. Cause they're, they're trying to give you the best side of their argument, so to speak, or their question. Present themselves in the best light, but what's really going on in these words? And then when I ask a follow-up question is usually where we start the, the dance and it's like, okay, um,

• 23:57Speaker 02

  you know, did they just tell me the truth? Or the way they phrased it, they're passive aggressive and they're, you know, that they're really not, you know, you've told me four times how your sister stole money from you. Okay, I got that. But we seem to be stuck there and we can't even get back to the thing you actually asked about because you're camping over there. And so there's, that's telling me something else is going on here. And so we're just trying to get behind the call, get behind the words, get behind the words, get behind the words, trying to find out what's really happening here. And so, you know,

• 24:41Speaker 02

  you know, a simple example, very simple is a guy will get on the air and this happens almost every week. And he starts,

• 24:50Speaker 02

  in great detail, giving me every stinking, I mean, precision detail of his financial situation.

• 24:59Speaker 03

  Surgical.

• 25:00Speaker 02

  So this guy is obviously a detailed guy, right? And he's obviously an engineer accountant, you know, what do you do for a living? I'm an engineer. No kidding. I'm shocked, you know? And so he's obviously that guy and and then he starts telling me how good he is at saving money. And, and how his, he can't get his wife

• 25:22Speaker 02

  to go along with his plan. You know, to get, he can't get his wife on the Ramsey plan. Cause he's trying to get me to take up for him and tell him how to fix his wife. And I'm like, your wife's not the problem. You're just so completely anal and such a tightwad that she doesn't have a voice in this discussion. And until you give her a voice in this discussion, and so it ends up being marriage counseling, right? A little light version of marriage counseling.

• 25:46Speaker 03

  Funny how everything kind of comes back to that.

• 25:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, until you, but all I'm doing is listening to his speech patterns and his information systems that he's using to throw at me and I'm, you know, you pretty quickly go, this is a good guy. But he sees the world through a very detailed lens and and, and it's very hard for him to sit down and, you know, come to agreement with someone who sees things differently. It's his way or the highway. And he's, you know, if you don't save every dime and if you spent more than 14 cents on something, he's going to lose his mind. And so his wife actually just wanted to buy food and that, you know,

• 26:25Speaker 02

  come on dude. And that, we get that call all the time. But all we're doing there is again, we're listening to the nuance of the language, the pausing, the style, the, the,

• 26:35Speaker 02

  what kind of a personality is he putting forth? And then we go, hey dude, you, you know, and sometimes I just say back to him, when you said that out loud, that it sounded as crazy to use it did to all of us that heard you say it. It's like, no, I never thought about it, but that's just, that is kind of crazy. It's like, okay, there you go.

• 26:54Speaker 03

  You,

• 26:57Speaker 03

  you're somebody who is certainly known to be somebody who

• 27:03Speaker 03

  isn't afraid to tell people how you see it. I think especially on some of the calls, I feel like even at the time, I think I was on one time. Somebody, and I was with you there at the desk and somebody called and

• 27:21Speaker 03

  he said something along the lines of, he's like, they had said something kind of like, I don't know what should I do? And you're like, yeah, that's a terrible idea. And you were just like, I mean, you, you, you weren't afraid to to punch that and they didn't, they took it and they were, just like you said a minute ago of being able to use some of these words that they appreciate the directness. And I'm saying this because I think it's a strength. And there are a lot of people out there who really struggle to say the hard thing. Before we keep going, I want to take a moment to tell you about AG1. I don't know about you, but summers can be just kind

• 28:03Speaker 03

  of weird. Some nights, all, everybody is in bed early, others we say, forget it. And we're staying up late. We're traveling a lot. Or you got crazy jet lag like me. Nutrition is where things start to fall apart. I have been taking AG1 now for several months, brought it with me when we were over in Australia. Why? Because it fills in all the nutritional gaps for me. It helps with my stomach, your gut biome. It helps my brain, gives me energy. It says, hey, I'm doing good things because I'm putting good things in me. And that feels really good. And one thing I really appreciate about AG1 is that all their stuff is clinically researched. Check this out. AG1 Next Gen is backed by multiple gold standard clinical trials and is clinically shown

• 28:48Speaker 03

  to fill common nutrient gaps, improve key nutrient levels within three months, enrich the gut biome and key nutrients. And AG1 were shown to be quickly and easily absorbed into the body. For me, it's really just one less thing to worry about. The taste, I'm not going to say it tastes like candy. But I will say it tastes, it tastes good enough. If I, if I'm taking it, it tastes good. Visit drinkag1.com/jefferson to get a free morning person hat. Hey, I need one of these hats. And free AG1 flavor sampler and your welcome kit with your first AG1 subscription. That's an $82 value. So that's drinkag1.com/jefferson. And now let's keep going. How does someone become a person who isn't afraid to say the hard thing?

• 29:36Speaker 02

  Well, I think if you pulled up tapes from the early days in the show, um, I would be, you'd find me dancing around a lot more than coming straight at it. Um, and so

• 29:49Speaker 03

  Something you've learned.

• 29:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, I've, I've, I already knew in my head what I wanted to say, but I was a little bit more sweet tea southern and just passive aggressive and dance around and try to pull it out.

• 30:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:01Speaker 02

  And sometimes that's not a bad idea. Still, I need to maybe not be quite so forceful today.

• 30:05Speaker 03

  Bless their heart.

• 30:06Speaker 02

  But yeah, it's just kind of bless your heart. And it can mean a lot of stuff in the South, folks. Um, but the, um,

• 30:18Speaker 02

  grace without truth is enabling.

• 30:24Speaker 02

  Truth without grace is, uh, legalism.

• 30:33Speaker 02

  And so I'm usually not always saying, and I make, we make mistakes on the air. We do live three hours a day. So, I mean, we make mistakes. Um, and I still make mistakes, but the, uh, I misjudge, in other words, the situation. But if I can, through the information they're giving me, figure out that they've been with us a while, and then they called, well, they've heard me have these other interactions, hundreds of times, maybe?

• 31:03Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 31:04Speaker 02

  And then they walked into that exact situation. So that tells everyone there, whether you realize it or not, that they're, that they trust me to, that if I'm gonna tell them something that's hard, that I'm not doing it for entertainment value, I'm doing it to help them.

• 31:21Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 31:22Speaker 02

  Trying to help the person that called. And anybody that's listening has got the same situation. I want to tell them the truth. And, um, uh, so if, if they call up and go, you know, my girlfriend told me to call and she listens to you all the time. And I, I don't even, I'm sorry, but I don't even know who you guys are. I'm gonna soft that one. I'm gonna put a lot of padding on that. I'm not gonna punch with a brick, you know?

• 31:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 31:47Speaker 02

  Uh, but if they call up and they go, you know, Dave, I've been listening to you for seven years and, you know, my family's been through Financial Peace University, and I'm thinking about leasing a car. And I'm like, what are you? That's so, that's so against everything you just said. Those two things don't even go in the same sentence.

• 32:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 32:02Speaker 02

  How could you possibly ask that dumb a question? You know, and it's like, and they know that then. I mean, intellectually, but they still, I guess they just want to hear somebody else say it out loud. So

• 32:13Speaker 03

  There it is.

• 32:13Speaker 02

  That, that, they already know that truth and, and I'm just putting it back on them. You know, there's some little voice in their head that's gonna sound a lot like mine. And then when I say it out loud, they go, yeah, I know, but I just had to ask, and I had to get it out of my system because I'm tempted and that helped me wash it away. And, um, but I'm like, I'm aghast that you call me and you tell me all this stuff and then you go do that. Or we're working your system. And then they start telling us what they're doing and they're going, you're not working my system.

• 32:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 32:40Speaker 02

  You're working your system. And, you know, so we've changed then. But again, we'll soft pedal it there, or put a little softness to it, to the extent we need to persuade rather than go straight at it. Then the second thing that goes with that is, um, you said, how do you get over the fear? You need to decide what's helpful. Cause your show, my show, the thing, the content pieces we put out are not for entertainment value.

• 33:07Speaker 03

  Right.

• 33:07Speaker 02

  The compelling parts of them is that they're helpful, that it helps me with my life. I'm, I'm better if I have these tools in my belt because I'll follow Jefferson. I'm better if I have these tools in the belt because we're doing the Ramsey stuff, you know? And so to not give them clarity on that piece of information is cowardice. It's not helpful to them.

• 33:34Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 33:35Speaker 02

  And my reason for sitting in that seat, I don't need money. My reason for sitting in that seat is to be helpful. That's where I get my income from, is being helpful. So I've, I cannot, and the other thing you have to remember is, there's a billion downloads. So there's, on any given time that that microphone's on, there's 40 or 50 million people listening. And so it's not the caller that's the problem. It's that I gave all of them permission also, if I, if I handle this wrong and if I don't tell the truth. So that's tremendous cowardice at that point. And, and so, um,

• 34:18Speaker 02

  it's like my duty then to be helpful, which means I have to tell the truth and I have to do it in such a way. The third piece that goes with it is, we will, and all the Ramsey personalities have been taught this, and you'll, if you listen carefully, you'll hear them do it, because I taught them to, I learned it, is I will come at someone about three times, and the third time they argue with me, each time I turn up the heat and the bluntness and the, uh, even the volume sometimes of the voice.

• 34:52Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 34:53Speaker 02

  First time is, okay, I'm gonna try to persuade you and talk you through this, give you all the reasons and so forth. The second time, I'm gonna go, look, I, this is what we said, and I'm gonna go lean in a little bit harder. The third time, I'm gonna pound it and drop the call.

• 35:09Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 35:10Speaker 02

  Because I'm not arguing with you.

• 35:11Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 35:12Speaker 02

  If I wanted to argue with you, I'd do a different show. That's not the show I'm doing. You called and asked us what, how to help be helpful. We told you how to be helpful. And that, that's what we think. If you want to do something else, that's okay. It's your life. You can do something else. But this is what we said, and we're not really gonna change that by having this long discussion with you, unless you give us a new piece of information or something in the call. But if you come in and we have the information set, we have the data set to make the, make a judgment call on it, then after that, it's just you're asking me to, uh, put a my Dave Ramsey certification on your stupidity, and I'm not doing that.

• 35:48Speaker 03

  Yeah. You have good phrases. You think there's more to that when somebody is

• 35:56Speaker 03

  calling, knowing full well what you're going to say? They just, they need to be told it by somebody, even though they, they're fully aware? Is, is there something to that where somebody has to be told what they already know to be true?

• 36:13Speaker 02

  There's so few places in our life in today's society that we can actually, uh, have faith in the person's character that we're interacting with.

• 36:24Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 36:25Speaker 02

  In, in the quote, old days, you know, you could look and say, that person is a person of character. That person, I could, you know, and you could start, you could talk to your pastor, you could talk to whatever, you could talk to who, you know, your boss, you could talk to whoever. And, and your, your dad and mom were somewhat functional, you know, those kinds of things. In today's world, um, more people grew up without a dad in the household than grew up with a dad. And so they, they've never had anyone, in a lot of cases, that they could ask. Nobody taught them about buying a car. Nobody taught them about, um, whatever. Um, and so a single parent household, and that's not to shame the person that, that did raise them.

• 37:07Speaker 02

  Single moms are warriors. They're, they're, they're heroes. Um, but, but the, the point is there's just a vacuum, um, in our culture today of who you can trust. And, and the more time you spend on, you know, with millennials and Gen Z's, the more time they spend with screens, the more they realize how untrustworthy most of these sources are. Um, because they're not. And they go, I can't trust that. I can't trust that. These are shallow. This is not, you know, these are just influencers. They're not, they're not people of substance or character. And so, uh, who's the person that's got some depth spiritually, got some depth emotionally,

• 37:48Speaker 02

  psychologically, um, got some experience? Who's the, um, you know, they, they didn't sit at their grandpa's feet growing up because grandpa didn't live next door.

• 37:58Speaker 03

  Right.

• 37:59Speaker 02

  And, and so they didn't, they, they never learned how to whittle and they never learned how to talk to grandpa. Cause grandpa would tell you stuff. I mean, he, he'd get on, if you had a grandpa like that, I had one like that. He'd get, he'd get up in your, in your business, you know? Mine did. I drove up in a Jaguar one time of mine and he, he was a, you know, a product of the Great Depression. And, um, he didn't say a lot. He's kind of a quiet guy. And he said, what is that? And I was making all this money in the real estate business right before I went broke and losing everything because of debt. And he said, what's that? I said, that's a Jaguar, grandpa. And he goes, really? That's a good looking car. He goes, well, what'd you pay for that? And I said, told him, and I was like, I don't even remember at the time,

• 38:41Speaker 02

  like 30 grand or something back then. And, uh, which would be 130 now, or 200. But he said, um,

• 38:50Speaker 02

  Well, what's that thing gonna be worth in 10 years? And I said, well, it's gonna go down in value. And I said, but it's a good investment. And he goes, honey, my investments go up.

• 38:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:00Speaker 02

  They didn't have that guy.

• 39:02Speaker 03

  That's awesome.

• 39:02Speaker 02

  They didn't have that guy. A lot of times, whether I'm, I'm not grandpa.

• 39:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:06Speaker 02

  Um, but, but I'm feeling, I'm the guy that they trust, that they can bounce it off of. Or the Ramsey personality, the Ramsey show is the place you can trust. It's a trust brand.

• 39:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:17Speaker 02

  And, um, and, uh, we've earned that trust by being consistent. We haven't changed.

• 39:24Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 39:25Speaker 02

  And, um, uh, and by proving that we, one of the consistency is we prove we actually love you. And we love you enough to tell you the truth.

• 39:34Speaker 03

  I think that, I think that hits the heart of it right there of, do you love this person enough to tell them the truth? Because that, to do the opposite would suggest you don't love them.

• 39:49Speaker 02

  Um, and I've picked up, and I've stolen one from Deloney that is in that same thing. He asks permission.

• 39:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:56Speaker 02

  Can I tell you something hard?

• 39:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:58Speaker 02

  Can I, will you give me permission to love you tough right now?

• 40:01Speaker 03

  Right.

• 40:02Speaker 02

  And just get up on you? And a hundred percent of the time they say, yeah.

• 40:05Speaker 03

  They always say yes.

• 40:06Speaker 02

  They wanna know.

• 40:07Speaker 03

  Right.

• 40:07Speaker 02

  They're curious, even if they're not gonna do it, you know, they still wanna hear what he's gonna say.

• 40:10Speaker 03

  Well, yeah, when you, when you don't catch them off guard and they know it's for their, in their interest, I think they're willing to do it. Um, and go into that with you and more, it'd be a collaborative team thing. I do think there is something too, though, people wanna be told, you know, I, it's something I, I wrestle with this idea of, you know, the, the, the things I talk about, nothing new. I'm not coming up with some new theory.

• 40:40Speaker 02

  Well, we haven't either.

• 40:41Speaker 03

  Right. And so I'm not coming up with, uh, my name isn't added to some new mathematical theorem out there. I'm just telling them things maybe in a way they haven't heard, or maybe they just need to hear it. And that does something to, to people. And I feel like you're certainly a living example of that with this radio show is they know that they need to not have debt. They know that they need to be having better habits. They just feel better when you tell them to.

• 41:12Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 41:14Speaker 03

  What do you think that is?

• 41:15Speaker 02

  I, I think the, um, it's true with your content and ours is that the heart, even if your heart is, uh, even if you've been abused, and even if you're struggling with, you know, finding your way to some kind of psychological, spiritual normalcy, even in those damaged situations, but for sure, people that are in a more normal bell curve, the heart recognizes truth when it hears it. There's a tuning fork that it's like, oh, that's on, that's, that's on tune. That, that's, that's the right note. I feel it. The heart recognizes that. And, um, and so, uh, uh, truth does that. It just, it rings a bell for you.

• 41:59Speaker 02

  And so, uh, when we say something like that, even if they've never heard it before,

• 42:07Speaker 02

  yeah, I think that's true.

• 42:11Speaker 02

  The kind of that light bulb comes on. And that's with, with what you're teaching them, they're like, yeah, maybe I don't need to come at that verbally this way. Maybe I need to just take a half step back and breathe and let's do, you know, you go, that's just so wise. And you go, huh, that's wisdom. And your heart recognizes truth, recognizes wisdom, and it gravitates towards that. And then the more time someone like you or our team, uh, does that, the more trustworthy you become. To where even if you come at them with something later, after you've built a rapport with them, even though you never met them, but you built rapport with them over the, over the platform, um, the, the more you, then when you come at them with something,

• 42:56Speaker 02

  even if it doesn't ring the bell, enough other things have that they will still listen to it. They'll still go, yeah, all the other stuff he told me was right. So I gotta, I gotta really consider this one. You know, and so, um, the example of that is, um, I don't get into politics very often, but I get into it a little bit here and there. Uh, particularly when it's around taxes and stuff, uh, or around, uh, the free enterprise system or those kinds of things, uh, freedom. Uh, but, uh, I have a, I'm a politically conservative. That's no secret. Everybody knows that. But I have a lot of, uh, listeners that are extremely left side of the political spectrum.

• 43:41Speaker 02

  And they know where I am and, and, uh, on that, but we're not having this conversation about that. So it's, it doesn't really enter into it. But I, I, I often get comments or emails come in over the years ago. You know, I really disagree with you on everything. But when you start talking about that, that's the truth.

• 44:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 44:03Speaker 02

  You know, so even though there's this barrier, this thing, this divisive thing, political differences, we weren't discussing that. We're discussing whether or not to, you know, finance a car or, you know, whether or not to be in agreement with your spouse on money. That's apolitical. It's not, doesn't enter into it. So they, they can, they still listen to the show.

• 44:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 44:27Speaker 02

  But they don't listen to a political show that's opposite.

• 44:30Speaker 03

  I like the tuning fork. I like that tuning fork idea.

• 44:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:34Speaker 03

  Of, cause we are, we're, we're all listening, we're trying to tune into the same frequency everybody else. And so whether it's scrolling, whether it's listening to a show, we're waiting for that moment that goes, I hear that. You know, and I think, I think that's what you do. I wanna speak right now for the person who, there is somebody who needs to have a very difficult conversation that they've been avoiding tomorrow.

• 45:02Speaker 03

  How do they work up the courage to say the thing that needs to be said?

• 45:16Speaker 02

  Well, the first thing is, is I wouldn't have the conversation if, um, you're doing it so you feel better.

• 45:27Speaker 03

  I like that.

• 45:29Speaker 02

  Because you're gonna be disappointed.

• 45:33Speaker 02

  It's not gonna work. Cause you're not gonna feel better.

• 45:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 45:38Speaker 02

  You know, i- if your mom's being difficult and you think you're gonna explain to your mom that I'll be difficult anymore, and you think you're gonna leave that conversation and your mom's gonna be, that, that, you're gonna be disappointed.

• 45:47Speaker 03

  Right.

• 45:48Speaker 02

  So if you think you're gonna go in and correct someone and them gonna accept it or, or set a boundary, and they are boundaryless people, and they're suddenly gonna love that because you had one tough conversation.

• 46:01Speaker 02

  But you're gonna feel better. I got it off my chest is what people say, right?

• 46:08Speaker 02

  That's not a healthy conversation. You're doing that for selfish reasons.

• 46:11Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 46:12Speaker 02

  So if you can enter the conversation on how I can serve that person on the other side, how can I serve them? How can I, how can I leave the conversation and them have been helped?

• 46:27Speaker 03

  I like that a lot.

• 46:28Speaker 02

  Then your job is to build a persuasive case. Your job is to form your words in such a way that they're helpful, not just you feel better because you puked on them.

• 46:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 46:41Speaker 02

  You know, and I've done both in my personal life or in a business setting or whatever, where I'm just gonna throw up on you, but I'll feel better and then the person was not helped. So why did I do, I mean, nothing changed.

• 46:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 46:54Speaker 02

  You know, the guy's a crook, he's still a crook. When I finish talking to him, he's still a crook. Why am I, why am I telling him he's a crook? It's, it's, it's of no value, of no value. And, um, you ruminate about, people ruminate about these conversations in their head over and over and over and over on the walking trail. I've done it.

• 47:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 47:12Speaker 02

  And I'm, I'm gonna say this, I'm gonna say this. And then I go, why am I, what's the purpose of this conversation? Is it for me? Is it for them?

• 47:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 47:23Speaker 02

  And if I get my purpose right, then you know what I end up doing? I end up not having some of the conversations.

• 47:29Speaker 03

  Right.

• 47:30Speaker 02

  Because it's, it's for me and it's not gonna end up, the, the actual practical outcome is not gonna be valuable.

• 47:36Speaker 03

  Right.

• 47:36Speaker 02

  And so.

• 47:37Speaker 03

  I find that was sometimes people go, I just have to, look, I just have to say, my first thought is, no, you don't. You don't have to say anything.

• 47:44Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 47:45Speaker 03

  This is, it's for you. It's not, it's not for the other person. And I find that that often is, you know, here's my thoughts, and I'm curious on your thoughts on this idea of like sugar coating. Right? Sugar coating is not for, to make them feel better, it's to make you feel better. What's your policy on that?

• 48:07Speaker 02

  In the, you know, we're, I always said, we're from the south with sweet tea, right? And so we're required to be nice.

• 48:16Speaker 02

  And it took me a long time, especially as a leader, hiring and leading people, to realize that being nice and not telling the truth because you're quote, unquote, being nice, air quotes, is not nice.

• 48:34Speaker 03

  Right.

• 48:35Speaker 02

  And so we've got a phrase around Ramsey that we use in our leadership team all the time. And entre leadership, I talk about all the time is to be unclear is to be unkind.

• 48:45Speaker 03

  It's true.

• 48:45Speaker 02

  It's, you know, and I had to teach myself that because I was like, well, and sugar sweet tea and pecan pie and, you know, and here we go. And, and then we leave the meeting and no one knows what happened because no one said anything. There was a lot of words, but no one said anything of substance.

• 49:02Speaker 03

  Right.

• 49:02Speaker 02

  There's nothing changed from the meeting. Why did we do this? It's like, well, I don't. And, and then I would become, you know, like for instance, someone's not doing their job well.

• 49:13Speaker 02

  Well, maybe they don't know it.

• 49:14Speaker 03

  Right.

• 49:15Speaker 02

  You know, don't do that that way. Here's the way we do it. Do it this way. That's clarity. But like, well, I wish he'd, you know, then I get progress, as a leader, young leader, I would get progressively, uh, increasingly frustrated with the person and they don't even know they're doing anything wrong because I didn't have the backbone to tell the truth in the name of being nice. I was like, well, they'll figure it out. No, they won't. You gotta help them. You gotta train them. You gotta say, honey, don't do it that way. We do it this way. I've done this for 25 years. You're, you're 25 years old. This is how you do it. You know, it's like, there's one way to do this. And at Ramsey, we do it this way. And if you don't tell them, then you don't, you lose the right to be frustrated with them.

• 49:58Speaker 03

  You see a difference between being kind and being nice?

• 50:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh, definitely. Kind tells the truth. To be unclear is to be unkind. So clarity requires kindness, requires clarity, and that's a form of truth.

• 50:11Speaker 03

  So the, for the person who goes, ah, Dave, I gotta have this, you understand, I have this conversation that I know I gotta have with my brother-in-law or at work or whatever. What I'm hearing you say, what they can take from this is, one,

• 50:30Speaker 03

  be rigorously honest about your motive. Is it, is it for you to feel better or is it to serve them?

• 50:38Speaker 02

  Let me ask you something, because with what you teach, does that ring true with what you teach? Does that not change the verbiage automatically?

• 50:44Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. It immediately puts it in, instead of trying to serve my own interests, which means prove I'm right.

• 50:52Speaker 02

  Words will reflect that, I think.

• 50:53Speaker 03

  Yeah. Oh, and it will, you know, what if, what they talk about, what's that quote? I think it's Abraham Lincoln of, if you want to find the bad in someone, you'll surely find it, you know? Um, and if I want to find a flaw in your way of thinking, I can find that too. So if I go exactly what, what you brought up of, how can I be of service to this conversation? So that changes immediately the mindset of, oh, it's almost like a release of a pressure valve. I don't have to prove that I'm right. Instead, I can say, how can I serve this moment? Meaning, how can I share perspectives rather than trying to prove my

• 51:34Speaker 03

  point? How can I be more interested in understanding them rather than trying to make them understand how wrong they are? You know, to, to try and push and push. And usually it's, it's, it's that whole mentality of, it's not the close fist that's going to get the result. It's usually the open hand of how, how can you be able to, um, make space for, for both sides in the conversation. So what I'm hearing is, we, we first have to ask the question, is it for you or, or is it for the other person? If it is for the other person, meaning something collaborative, you next want to think about, um, the goal. I mean, what's, what's the intended goal of, why are you, why are you wanting to tell them this? And then three, what I

• 52:19Speaker 03

  like is, what's the kind thing? Because the whole, that's not nice, isn't going to work. I, I absolutely agree with you of, the kinder thing is usually the thing you don't regret later. Am I, it will, I think it will always be the harder thing.

• 52:35Speaker 02

  If you get angry in the delivery, that's not kind. You say the same thing the wrong way, right? Or if your, um, volume is wrong, or sometimes even your pacing.

• 52:49Speaker 03

  Timing.

• 52:49Speaker 02

  Is wrong. All of those things indicate it's about you.

• 52:54Speaker 03

  Do you find that you are more effective when you are the Dave that's loud and animated? And almost to the point of, let's just say anger? Or do you find that you're effective when you can slow it down and have a little bit more of the, not softness, because I think you can be kind and still be incredibly firm. Um,

• 53:27Speaker 02

  But it's a soft voice.

• 53:29Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 53:29Speaker 02

  Maybe. Um, well, the data tells us on our show, based on viewership of certain clips, or certain, uh, particular episodes or whatever, of Dave, I'll just use myself only, um, is that if I'm loud and animated and passionate at an individual, I get real negative feedback.

• 53:59Speaker 02

  They want me to tell them the truth. The viewer does.

• 54:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 54:04Speaker 02

  And, um, but it feels mean to them if I'm doing all that. And so when I'm individual to individual, if I'm sitting on the couch with, having a private conversation with someone, that's going to sound completely different than a rant about a concept.

• 54:25Speaker 03

  Right.

• 54:26Speaker 02

  That's just stupid.

• 54:28Speaker 03

  Angry Dave comes out.

• 54:29Speaker 02

  And I can do all, I can go crazy about that and those things go through the roof. You know, you've lost your mind, you know, all that stuff, right? And those things go, but, but what I'm doing there is passionately.

• 54:41Speaker 03

  That's passion.

• 54:42Speaker 02

  Telling the truth. It's the same exact piece of information, but it's not delivered directly at an individual. It's delivered at a problem or a societal thing or a cultural thing. This is just out of control. You guys, come on. You know, and it's like, and everybody's like, because nobody thinks that's them then.

• 55:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's always the other person.

• 55:02Speaker 02

  That's not right on their nose. It's not right in their face. And so, but if you're nose to nose with somebody, there's no option. It's, you know, and now it's just yelling at somebody.

• 55:11Speaker 03

  Right.

• 55:11Speaker 02

  And that, that doesn't, that doesn't work. And if you think about it for 30 seconds, it doesn't, it doesn't work. I mean, no kidding.

• 55:20Speaker 03

  Yeah. How, how can you be direct with somebody and not be mean or rude?

• 55:28Speaker 02

  Again, I, I, tone matters.

• 55:31Speaker 03

  Volume.

• 55:32Speaker 02

  And volume matters. Those things matter, uh, in, in the delivery of that, because that's how it's interpreted. Um, establishing a rapport ahead of time, that the reason we're here is to be helpful. And if at any point this becomes harmful instead of helpful, then this conflict is no longer valuable. You might not say it that way, but I mean, we're establishing that, that there's that level of trust in the relationship. And so, uh, you know, uh, back in the, uh, whatever, the nineties, there was the Promise Keepers movement.

• 56:11Speaker 03

  Right.

• 56:11Speaker 02

  And accountability, men being accountable for their behavior to other men and men's groups, all this stuff popped up, accountability, accountability, accountability. And everybody in churches started forming accountability groups with people they'd never met before. That just does not work because of abject failure, because you're not accountable to someone you don't have a relationship with. And so you can't correct someone you're not, you don't have a relationship with.

• 56:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 56:38Speaker 02

  And, and so we, when we were leading Financial Peace University groups, um, over 10 million people now have gone through those groups. So we had the small group discussion after the lesson for accountability and for clarification of the information, right? And the small group leader's job was to hold people accountable, getting on a budget, following the steps. And to the extent they're not doing that, point it out to them in the small group discussion. And, um, but in, but you're, and you're in that class for nine weeks. So once a week. So that, that accountability thing sounds completely different in week five than it did in week one.

• 57:17Speaker 03

  I bet.

• 57:17Speaker 02

  Because, you know, what we would teach them is you can't hit somebody in the back of the head unless you have your arm around the shoulder.

• 57:24Speaker 03

  So the person who says, I'm having a really hard time, because there are, there are people who really struggle with being direct.

• 57:33Speaker 03

  What I hear you telling them is not only do we need to bring down our volume, like people respond to more often than not that softer but firm energy and also is the reasoning, which resonates with me because I like to tell people a very easy intro into saying something direct is I'm telling you this because most of the time it's like opening up the newspaper and their point is you still have to go to see page C8, you know, to get to the point. But if I start with, I'm telling you this because I care about you. I'm telling you this because I know you can handle it. I'm telling you this because we're going to grow stronger from it and I'm going to

• 58:18Speaker 03

  be here with you. People, it helps get right to the, the thing, get to the point rather than the, okay, do you remember when the other day we were, you know, talking about this and people go, I don't.

• 58:33Speaker 02

  Who won the Super Bowl?

• 58:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Like this weather, this weather is awesome.

• 58:37Speaker 02

  And all that is, is we're not clear and, um, and we're afraid still. You're exactly right.

• 58:44Speaker 03

  That's fear.

• 58:44Speaker 02

  Yeah. And the fear is overcome by love. And so you have to set yourself, sitting down in the meeting, do I love this person enough to have this conversation? Otherwise, you're having it for yourself. Yeah. Again, back to motive, right? And so I have, and so now what does involve, what does love involve here? Okay, I have to, son, you're six years old. You have to brush your teeth. There's several reasons. One is your breath stings. And two is you're going to need the teeth

• 59:23Speaker 02

  later. So I'm your dad and I'm requiring that you're going to brush your teeth. Then this is the truth and this is, I don't have to be mean. I'll yell at you. Get upstairs. I'm brushing your teeth. Yeah. It's not that, but it's just that, that isn't for me. I don't need those teeth. He does. Right. So it's like, you know, why are we having this conversation? It's for his good. And, um, and so the funny one I get in this regard is, um, that's kind of the polar opposite of the question you're asking, is people will say, you know, Ramsey, you're just all about tough love. And I'm like, no, that's just love. It's not, it's not like there's a tough love and a not tough love. What does not tough love do?

• 1:00:07Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:00:08Speaker 02

  Not tell the truth? Not be helpful?

• 1:00:10Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:00:11Speaker 02

  What does not tough love look like? Well, it's not tough love. It's, but it's, but people, because it's especially in the South, you know, we're like, you know, anything where you tell something very directly, even if you said first said, you know, we're going to grow because of this and you know, I care about you. And you know, the reason we're having this conversation is for you and for you, I want you to win. And for you to win, you need this piece of information.

• 1:00:36Speaker 03

  There's a mindset I want to tap into because I think what you do is special when you're about to say the thing that's the difficult thing, the hard thing. And where does your mind go in terms of how you're going to handle their feelings? I can tell you, my dad would tell me when I would say, they're going to be disappointed if I say that. He said, yeah, they will be. They get to choose what to do with that after. And so he would always like, you can't carry other people's feelings for them.

• 1:01:15Speaker 02

  I was going to be a little bit more of a crass.

• 1:01:17Speaker 03

  I would love to hear it. Let's hear it.

• 1:01:19Speaker 02

  I don't care about your feelings. I care about your life. Your feelings are going to be gone by morning. Whoopie about feelings. Everybody's all worried about their feelings. You're going to hurt your feelings. Good. They probably their feelings hurt. They're really doing cocaine. They need to stop. I really want to hurt your feelings. It's my goal here. I really want you to be really pissed off by the time we finish this conversation. This is my goal because that's when you're going to quit, put down the cocaine. You know, I mean, I'm not concerned about your feelings. And so that's the crass way of looking at it. But, um, again, are you there in the conversation to make

• 1:02:01Speaker 02

  them like you, which is their feelings? Or are you there to help them?

• 1:02:08Speaker 03

  That goes back to the selfish service.

• 1:02:10Speaker 02

  Again, I just keep, we keep looping back. But I mean, for me, I have to do that. I have to go, you know, this guy's not going to like this. And this, he's probably going to, based on the conversation we've had for the last four minutes on the air, when I do this, he may even hang up the phone. And sometimes they do, you know, and, um, which makes great radio, but it's not a great conversation. But everyone out there listening goes, it's exactly what the guy needed. The listeners all nodding in their car. They're going, yeah, somebody actually said out loud that dad is moronic, you know, someone said that to the guy who's being moronic. You know, you are destroying

• 1:02:52Speaker 02

  your life with this. You've got to stop it, man. This is crazy. I mean, everyone that's listening to this right now is looking at you going, I mean, seriously, man, you're, you're, the way you're even forming yourself. I mean, I'll do this on the air with them. And it, but it's all a pleading with them for the, to hear it for their, for their change. And it's not because I need the entertainment value of it. And it's not because, um, I got in a reality TV thing for about 30 seconds. Thank God it didn't work. Um, but they, the producers were all about making clowns out of

• 1:03:29Speaker 02

  the person I was there to help. And so I was supposed to be the shiny expert is the way they were performing it. And it was the early days of reality TV. And so, but the, the wilder and dumber and crazier, the person I was helping could look, the more they thought the TV was good, you know, and I finally was like, guys, when this comes out, those people are going to be destroyed. Sure. And so your only purpose here is to mess them up for entertainment value. I'm, I'm out. I want to, it's not fun for me.

• 1:04:03Speaker 03

  No, I think, I think you're right in that you, is it, is it, is it at the expense of something greater? I want to use a scalpel here for a second. Cause I, I hear you on the, I don't care about your feelings. I know also that's a, that's a more one way on the spectrum way to even say it. So I know deep down, you do care. You have to care at some extent about their feelings. So I want to, I want to better define that sentence of.

• 1:04:34Speaker 02

  Now, that's pretty blunt. Yeah. Well, no, it's pretty, um, it's not a scalpel, but it's a, it's a.

• 1:04:39Speaker 03

  I mean, that's a hammer. Yeah, yeah, for sure. You took a sledgehammer. And I, but I think that's, there are some people who appreciate the sledgehammer.

• 1:04:45Speaker 02

  I'm less concerned about your feelings than I am your quality of life after we have this conversation.

• 1:04:51Speaker 03

  There we go. It, it is that you don't care. Is that right now I'm having to care more about your life than I am about the current feeling?

• 1:05:02Speaker 02

  In a culture that is more worried about your feelings than telling you the truth. So I'm going to be different.

• 1:05:08Speaker 03

  Right. Because if I, if I truly, if I went to the other end of the spectrum and said, I only care about your feelings, most likely I would never say the thing. That's where we get caught up in the, that's not nice.

• 1:05:20Speaker 02

  It's enabling.

• 1:05:21Speaker 03

  It's enabling. Yeah, that's exactly right. It enables that kind of behavior. If, if you don't, if, if you're not the grindstone on somebody else, um, and, and when it's from a right place. So I hear you on the, to the extent of I, I care more about your life and I care more about you right now than I do about your feelings.

• 1:05:44Speaker 02

  In your momentary discomfort.

• 1:05:46Speaker 03

  That's a great way of putting it is that I think that puts it, makes a condition on the timing of knowing that there is going to be something. I wanted to share something with you of, cause I want to get, it's like my time to, uh, get your opinion on something. I like to talk about this method that I have. I call them cold shower conversations. And this is when I need to have something like a heart to heart moment. And I know it's going to be, it's not going to feel good. I know I'm not going to feel good and they're not going to feel good. It's like a cold plunge or that cold shower. I mean, we're going to be arching our back because it's not going to be fun.

• 1:06:27Speaker 03

  But after a while, you get used to the temperature and you start to, your nervous system starts to catch up and start to regulate itself. And so sometimes I'll say, I need to have a cold shower conversation with you, which is informing them of, it's not going to be comfortable for a little bit, but I'm going to be in it with you and we're going to get through it. Do you find that that's, is that something that is, uh, like is Dave approved?

• 1:06:54Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Yeah. Because what happens is, um,

• 1:06:59Speaker 02

  Your brain trains yourself, the more of those you have, the more of them you'll have.

• 1:07:04Speaker 03

  And it easier, the easier it is to get them.

• 1:07:06Speaker 02

  You didn't die from it.

• 1:07:07Speaker 03

  Right, yeah.

• 1:07:07Speaker 02

  You thought you were gonna die. There's a part of your lizard brain that says you're gonna die from this. You're not gonna die. And actually, good things happen versus if you don't deal with it.

• 1:07:17Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:07:18Speaker 02

  Bad things happen. And so that, you know, it builds your faith, you know. And so, you know, I got a cold plunge and decided I was gonna do all this stuff because all you cool people are doing it. And so.

• 1:07:33Speaker 03

  I'm not one of the cool people.

• 1:07:34Speaker 02

  It's cold, man. And so, yeah, I'm at four minutes at 48. And my son-in-law is laughing. He says, I'm a wuss at that. But, um.

• 1:07:44Speaker 03

  Hey, yeah, my respect.

• 1:07:44Speaker 02

  Anyway, the, uh, but the first time I did it, I thought I was gonna die.

• 1:07:48Speaker 03

  This one, yeah.

• 1:07:49Speaker 02

  Four minutes at 48. And now I'm like, ah, whatever, you know?

• 1:07:53Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:07:53Speaker 02

  It just, because your brain says you're not, you didn't die. And guess what? You do get all the dopamine hits and all the stuff from it, all the benefits of it.

• 1:08:00Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:08:00Speaker 02

  And you come out feeling better and cold shower moment, you come out awake, like it wakens you up.

• 1:08:06Speaker 03

  And you're stronger.

• 1:08:07Speaker 02

  The same thing's true. Yeah, the same thing's true when you have these conversations. So when we decided we were actually gonna start having a conversation and adjusting behavior with a team member that was offline. They were out of line in some way, either the execution of their job or their behaviors or their, I don't know. Whatever it is that I need to help them get better at in order for them to stay.

• 1:08:31Speaker 02

  You know, it was like, uh, I had to kind of work up to it. And it's like, I had to get myself ready and.

• 1:08:38Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:08:38Speaker 02

  All this stuff. And, but now that I've had 80,000 of those conversations in 30 years of leading people. I just like getting in the cold plunge in the morning. It's just not a big thing. It's, yeah. But because I see the, I didn't die from it and the benefits far outweigh the discomfort. And so I just keep doing it more and more and more. And now, again, you have to abide by the rules. And so in those situations, one of the rules is I'm doing it for them, not for me. It ends up being the byproduct is it's for me because the work gets done and I'm paying them. So that's good.

• 1:09:13Speaker 03

  The goal's reached.

• 1:09:13Speaker 02

  But the goal is reached. But, but I'm doing it for them, not for me. It's in other words, I'm not in here, I don't want to feel better because of the conversation. That's a bully.

• 1:09:22Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:09:24Speaker 02

  In that case, when you're the leader having an uncomfortable conversation, we call them. And so.

• 1:09:32Speaker 03

  I like that, though.

• 1:09:32Speaker 02

  The second thing is, um, you start to see the fruit that this builds out. And you just go, I need to do that more often. And when I didn't do it, everybody lost. And so really it becomes my only option to have an uncomfortable conversation. And, and of course, in those cases, the other rule is not only is it not for me, but it has to be in private. We're not gonna call you out in front of your peers or something like that on, on something that you're being, that a corrective thing is being done.

• 1:10:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, unless they're calling into your show.

• 1:10:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, I mean, that, well, they, that's the format.

• 1:10:06Speaker 03

  Correct.

• 1:10:06Speaker 02

  But I'm saying, if I've got a team member working for me, I don't.

• 1:10:10Speaker 03

  Without a doubt.

• 1:10:11Speaker 02

  Have, um, you know, an uncomfortable conversation. And I think your thing where you said, let's set the table as we enter this, why we're doing this. And we do, one of the things one of our guys teaches, and I picked it up from him, is, uh, okay, so and so. This is gonna be an uncomfortable conversation. No one's getting fired today. But we have some things we need to deal with. And so here's what's going on. And here's how we need to see that corrected. And I'm on your side of the table. We're gonna walk together on this. I'm not across the table from you. I'm beside you. And if we can walk together and get this corrected, I get to stay on your side of the table.

• 1:10:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:10:50Speaker 02

  And be your cheerleader. If we don't correct it, I'm gonna end up on the other side of the table. We're gonna have another one of these conversations and it's gonna get more uncomfortable.

• 1:10:58Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:10:59Speaker 02

  And so, and that's kind of the format he uses. And it's a great format.

• 1:11:03Speaker 03

  Well, I like that it's, it's immediately eliminating the worst case possible scenario for the other person, the worst case scenario.

• 1:11:10Speaker 02

  I'm not sitting down here to fire you.

• 1:11:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, which is eliminates that anxiety. And what I hear you saying.

• 1:11:15Speaker 02

  I'm not asking for a divorce.

• 1:11:17Speaker 03

  Right, yeah. You're having to eliminate.

• 1:11:20Speaker 02

  Really upset about this.

• 1:11:21Speaker 03

  Exactly. What I hear you saying is to be better at harder conversations, you have to have a lot of.

• 1:11:29Speaker 02

  And.

• 1:11:30Speaker 03

  Harder conversations.

• 1:11:30Speaker 02

  And end up seeing the benefit of them.

• 1:11:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:11:33Speaker 02

  It's not like they get easier because you become calloused. They get easier because they work.

• 1:11:40Speaker 03

  Yeah. Well, you get to, like you said, use the word fruits of them. To be better at hard conversations, you need to have a lot of hard conversations. And the first one is gonna be hard. It's meant to be difficult because there's only, that's the only way through to reach the truths and the, the bond and the strength and the everything else.

• 1:11:59Speaker 02

  And it's a different kind of thing. But I remember the first time, a thousand years ago, that I had to fire somebody.

• 1:12:06Speaker 03

  How'd you feel?

• 1:12:06Speaker 02

  I was sick.

• 1:12:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:12:08Speaker 02

  Oh, I knew Monday morning, this guy's gone, right? And all weekend, I mean, my digestive system, I mean, I was, I was up half the night.

• 1:12:17Speaker 03

  Couldn't eat.

• 1:12:18Speaker 02

  Sick.

• 1:12:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:12:19Speaker 02

  Because I didn't want to hurt them. But they, there was no way.

• 1:12:25Speaker 02

  The decision had been made. I just had to pull the, I had to do it. And, ah, and I walk in, I sat down with the guy and I said, look, the, the decision's been made. Today's your last day at Ramsey. And he's like, I told my wife this weekend that probably Monday was my last day because you've been talking to me about this. And I figured that that's where we were. And he goes, I want to thank you for.

• 1:12:47Speaker 02

  Oh, my God. Where were you all weekend while I was throwing up, you know?

• 1:12:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:12:51Speaker 02

  But that, that was the first one. And, and, and now I don't, in a situation, I don't personally deal with that anymore at Ramsey. Our organization's too big for that. But the, um, but today, if I'm involved in something like that, I don't spend the weekend upset. Because I know that they're not gonna die. As a matter of fact, they really suck at this job. Which means they probably got us something else for them to do that they can actually be prosperous at.

• 1:13:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:13:17Speaker 02

  And so this could be a learning experience. And so we fired people because they had an alcohol problem and they went and got NAA and got help. And the firing was the bottom that allowed them to change their life. And so, you know, a lot of times when, you know, we release someone, it's as if they've been a captive. And so good things have happened. So it's a little different. But I've now had the experience of people leaving our organization against their will over the years and going on to do much better somewhere else. So we did them, not metaphorically, literally a favor. And so it makes it easier.

• 1:13:58Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:13:58Speaker 02

  That's the parallel. The difficult conversation is you have this conversation and at least you know you love them well, even if they don't change. You did all you could do.

• 1:14:09Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:14:09Speaker 02

  And I can't do anything else. And I'm not gonna hound them about it. I'm not gonna wear them out in a, in a personal thing. Uh, on a team member, I'm gonna, they're, they have to, you wanna have change, option, you're gonna change. But, um, but in a personal thing, you know, your mom's misbehaving, she's probably not gonna change and, you know. But at least you loved her enough to tell her the truth. And then the next time it comes up, we can have a reasonable boundary. Remember, we talked about this, mom, this is where we are. And, you know, you don't have to be, you don't have to revisit it every time.

• 1:14:38Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:14:39Speaker 02

  But, but you can have these conversations because you know you love them well. And, and you many times get to see them do better and prosper because of the conversation, which will encourage the cold showers.

• 1:14:50Speaker 03

  I agree. I, uh, there's a phrase that I like to use.

• 1:14:55Speaker 03

  The conversation you're avoiding is the result that you're choosing.

• 1:14:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:59Speaker 03

  And.

• 1:15:00Speaker 02

  You get what you tolerate.

• 1:15:00Speaker 03

  Exactly. And if you, however you're feeling by avoiding that conversation, that is, then you're making that, you're making that choice. I, um.

• 1:15:10Speaker 02

  And let me ask you this. Do you, do you think that people experience, it just occurred to me when you said this, um, said that because of beautiful insight.

• 1:15:20Speaker 02

  That when you're carrying the entire weight and they don't even know it's there.

• 1:15:24Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:15:25Speaker 02

  That it's probably 10x as bad as if you just sat down and then it's gone.

• 1:15:30Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:15:31Speaker 02

  It just evaporates.

• 1:15:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:15:33Speaker 02

  But it's 10x worse. And the longer you carry it, the heavier it gets.

• 1:15:37Speaker 03

  Yeah. The more you become, um, separate from yourself.

• 1:15:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:15:43Speaker 03

  When it, it's like, how do I, the way I see it is, how do I shorten? If I know without a doubt, like, how do I know to let something go or keep it or address it? It's, am I thinking about it the next day? If I'm thinking about it the next day, that tells me, okay. I mean, I, my hands might be cool right now and open, but inside I'm grasping, I'm still grabbing onto it. So I gotta find a way to not do that. So how do I shorten the amount of time that I'm sharing it? Because the longer I hold it, the more heavier it gets and the more hidden resentment I have. And the less I feel like they know me. And then what does that do?

• 1:16:25Speaker 03

  That, that is meaning there is now a space between us that you didn't put there, I put there. And now there is this inability for me to be authentic. And now there's an inability for me to be vulnerable. Because I am much more concerned, um, about that weight. And yeah, I think.

• 1:16:41Speaker 02

  And when you stack those up, when you stack those up in an individual, the individual has tremendous anxiety. Yeah. It is not, they're not offloading this stuff.

• 1:16:49Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:16:49Speaker 02

  There's the, their peace, the level of peace goes down. If it stacks up too high, it becomes just, um, psychological disorder eventually.

• 1:16:57Speaker 03

  Without a doubt.

• 1:16:58Speaker 02

  They're never offloading. They're never cleaning, they're never cleaning the table. Kitchen table just keeps getting more dirty dishes on it.

• 1:17:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's like, it's as if you, I haven't thought about it this way before. You know, when you skip the gym once. You realize all of a sudden it's three months before you go again. Or maybe you, um, you forget to clean out, delete that, just even archive that one email. And all of a sudden, it's three weeks later and you have 300 emails that you haven't even addressed. If, if it doesn't become part of.

• 1:17:33Speaker 02

  The rhythm.

• 1:17:34Speaker 03

  The rhythm of your life of saying, I'm feeling this, therefore without automatically, that my process is, I'm now saying it. If it serves, if the framework is right, that it serves you more than it serves me and all that's there. And, and that's, that's a beautiful insight. Thank you for calling that out. I, I wanna wrap us up by this idea of there's somebody who's.

• 1:18:00Speaker 03

  Afraid to say something, and you hit on this a minute ago, I want to look at it a different way. There's somebody who is afraid to say something because they are deeply concerned that they're going to disappoint the other person, and they are not sure how in the world they can face that kind of disappointment. What kind of message of hope? First, I want to know, how do you, how do you get over that feeling, that fear, let me ask it differently. One, how do you get over the fear of disappointing someone? And second of all, what's the message of hope that you have for them?

• 1:18:54Speaker 02

  Well, I don't know if you ever get over that fear. It's limited, the more that you value the help that the person receives. Is the help more important than the disappointment? Is the, you know, again, we can use an extreme example, your, you know, your high school buddy, your friend for 20 years was doing cocaine. So, you know, how concerned am I about him being disappointed in me for saying, dude, you're killing yourself. You've lost all your relationships, you've lost your job, you lost your wife, you're doing cocaine. You've got

• 1:19:35Speaker 02

  to get some help, dude. And when you get to some, sometimes if I extrapolate something out to an extreme like that, that's an extreme situation.

• 1:19:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:19:46Speaker 02

  Then it tells me, I'm not really concerned about a disappointment. My fear of him being disappointed, I'm pretty much guaranteed he's going to be disappointed.

• 1:19:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:19:54Speaker 02

  No one likes to be confronted in their drug use. I've never met anybody that I thought, that was wonderful. Oh, thank you.

• 1:20:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:20:00Speaker 02

  I've never heard of that happening. You know, there's an intervention and everybody, and the drugie just loved it. Never, never heard of that happening, you know, so 100% chance they're going to be disappointed. So, but I'm much more concerned about them and their life and their, than I am their disappointment. So, I, I think first is I got to accept that there's disappointment.

• 1:20:23Speaker 03

  Number one is, they will be disappointed.

• 1:20:26Speaker 02

  They will be disappointed.

• 1:20:27Speaker 03

  There's no getting over it.

• 1:20:28Speaker 02

  Now, how much do I care? You know, versus, they're doing cocaine, or versus the situation I'm addressing, right? And so, the situation I'm addressing has to trump the disappointment and minimize my concern about it. And that's helpful. The other thing is, is that if you haven't had a lot of these cold showers, then you, you still live with this mythology in your head, I did in the early days, that, that somebody was going to finally just say, thank you, and they weren't going to be disappointed. Just go ahead and get rid of that one. It's not going to happen. They're gonna, they're not going to understand, they're not going to be self-aware, they're not going to get it. You're going to have to plow through some messiness. They're going to be disappointed, their feelings are going to be hurt, they're

• 1:21:12Speaker 02

  going to be angry, they're going to be sad, they're going to lose their mind, you know, and it's all going to be your fault. Just go ahead and expect all of that, and the secret to happiness is low expectations, right? So, back to the golf motto. The, you know, and once I, okay, that's a given, what your dad was saying, count on it. Now, is the trade-off worth it?

• 1:21:34Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:21:36Speaker 02

  Am I more concerned about their disappointment or their cocaine use? That's so extreme that it kind of becomes a duh. Of course, I'm not concerned about their disappointment, even though it's guaranteed. I'm more concerned because I love my friend and they're killing themselves, and I gotta help them. And their disappointment is part of the equation. But I used to think, well, maybe they'll be not disappointed and they'll change. And no, they're going to be disappointed. They're not gonna, they're not gonna like this. They're not gonna be happy.

• 1:22:12Speaker 03

  And the only way to get over that, that fear is to know that, to me, I think, fear a lot is the unknown. Well, we can eliminate the unknown by saying, it is going to happen. It will be known, you can't expect it. And they also have the agency with what, how, with what to do with it.

• 1:22:34Speaker 02

  They can decide how they want to, well, they want to spend all their energy being disappointed, or angry, or whatever the thing is, or, and continuing to be lacking in self-awareness, which is what we're talking about, really. Or are, your dad's right, are they gonna decide, this guy really does love me, I think I can hear at least a little bit of this, and I need to think about it.

• 1:22:59Speaker 03

  And that was a variable that you can't control anymore.

• 1:23:01Speaker 02

  No, no. I mean, the most healthy response I've ever seen, in practicality, is, they look at me and they go, you're kind of pissing me off right now, but I think you got a point. You know, that's about the best one you can hope for, right?

• 1:23:14Speaker 03

  That's not Dave Ramsey on the, in a nutshell.

• 1:23:17Speaker 02

  That's about the best you can hope for coming back at you. Dave, you know, you're really hurting my feelings, I'm kind of mad at you right now, but, but I think, I think, I think you might be right, and I got to think about this.

• 1:23:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:23:29Speaker 02

  Because I know you love me.

• 1:23:30Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:23:30Speaker 02

  And that's the best you can hope for. But to expect them to go, oh, no, thank you. I've been considering this for four weeks and you, God sent you. No, he didn't. No, that's, that's not how they're going to feel.

• 1:23:41Speaker 03

  Sometimes you need a kick in the pants. Dave, thank you so much for coming on.

• 1:23:44Speaker 02

  I'm honored, honored to be with you, brother. Appreciate it.