How OCD Hijacks Your Brain with Angie Greene

Angie’s OCD obsessions are that she has committed her worst, most insidious, fears. 💌 Join 9,500+ others in our newsletter community - https://www.theimperfects.com.au/sign-up-to-our-newsletter/ Officially diagnosed with obsessive compulsive disorder (OCD) when she was 19, some of Angie’s earliest memories are of obsessions, compulsions and seeking reassurance. Joining us in the studio, Angie talks to Hugh, Ryan and Josh about the reality of living with OCD, how she navigates particularly bad episodes with her partner, and why she wouldn’t wish it on her worst enemy Angie explains false memories, and the lengths she has gone to seek reassurance, and finally, why it is so important to her to create something that helps people feel less alone. In amongst all of the OCD chat, Hugh asks Angie about her anti-discrimination work and the beautiful story of where that passion came from. Chapters 00:00:00 – Trailer 00:01:27 – Angie + Hugh don’t do small talk 00:03:46 – Why Angie accepted an ARIA on behalf of Sia 00:05:45 – Growing Up in Sporting Royalty 00:07:45 – Why Angie’s Brother Came Out To Her 00:10:41 – “I’m Crying Because I Could Have Helped” 00:13:21 – Why Feeling Safe To Be Yourself Matters 00:15:02 – Angie’s Moral Compass: Where Does It Come From? 00:18:17 – OCD: Obsessions, Compulsions + Reassurance 00:20:45 – OCD Stereotypes vs Reality 00:22:52 – Feeling Like A Bad Kid 00:24:52 – Why OCD Makes Your Excruciatingly Self-Aware 00:28:02 – Examples of Intrusive Thoughts 00:30:23 – Invisible Compulsions: Kissing, Hugging, Incest 00:32:19 – Relationship OCD: Constant Fear of Cheating On Your Partner 00:34:37 – OCD False Memories: How The Brain Builds ‘Evidence’ 00:36:10 – Why Reassurance Seeking Never Brings Relief 00:39:13 – What It’s Like Loving Someone With OCD 00:41:40 – What OCD Has Cost Angie: Peace, Presence + Precious Moments 00:50:08 – Why Getting The Right Treatment Was Lifechanging 00:54:52 – What Exposure Response Prevention (ERP) Actually Looks Like 00:57:02 – How To Support Someone With OCD 00:59:01 – How Angie and Her Husband Manage OCD Episodes 01:02:53 – Finding Your People Through OCD 01:05:15 – How To Respond When Someone Tells You They Have OCD 01:08:24 – Tips for Supporting Someone Who Has OCD 🧠If you, or someone you know, has been diagnosed with or thinks they may have OCD, these are some great resources. In an emergency, always call 000. OCD BOUNCE - https://ocd.org.au OCD WA - https://www.ocdwa.com.au International OCD Foundation - https://iocdf.org The Joy Thief, by Penny Moodie - https://bit.ly/3VJaKZ4 It’s Not What You Think podcast - https://bit.ly/4iZppcj LifeLine - 13 11 14 🫖Imperfects episodes mentioned in this episode Penny Moodie - Obsessive compulsive disorder (OCD) - https://bit.ly/4jxTPTd Penny Moodie’s New Book - OCD & Finding Joy Again - https://bit.ly/4rGXkJa Rick Davies - Living with OCD - https://bit.ly/4hxuLZY Issac Humphries - Coming Out On Court - https://bit.ly/3VZDHQA 💻Things to check out Andrea Wallace’s Website - https://wonderpsychology.com Angie Greene’s Website - angiegreene.com.au 🩷To host your own Vulnerabilitea House, purchase here - theimperfects.com.au/shop 🩵To purchase our journal (or your novel) My Imperfect Life, click here - theimperfects.com.au/shop 🩵To join our subscriber community, A Little More Imperfects, follow this link - patreon.com/theimperfects 🩷 AND you can subscribe to A Little More Imperfects through Apple Podcasts http://apple.co/theimperfects The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you’re struggling, please see a healthcare professional, or call lifeline on 13 11 14.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  It's cost me peace. It's cost me some of like the best moments of my life.

• 0:13Speaker 01

  Angie Green has obsessive compulsive disorder.

• 0:15Speaker 00

  There's not one part of OCD that's enjoyable or like a fun little quirk or that you would choose.

• 0:21Speaker 01

  But it wasn't until hearing Penny Moodie's episode on the imperfects.

• 0:25Speaker 00

  Penny literally saved my life.

• 0:28Speaker 01

  But Angie finally felt some relief.

• 0:30Speaker 00

  I was like, oh my God, there's one other person like me. And if there's one, awesome.

• 0:38Speaker 01

  Angie invites us into her brain to help us understand what it's like for her every day.

• 0:43Speaker 00

  I get intrusive thoughts that I obsess over and they're usually very much my worst fears. Maybe I do want to kill my dog. Maybe I actually don't love my family at all. Was it the cheek? Or did I get the corner of their mouth? Maybe this is intuition. Maybe it's not. Maybe I did fuck my cousin. Maybe I didn't. Maybe I, really? Right? And there cannot be any doubt. And the scariest thing with OCD is we doubt the doubt itself. Before going into labour, this is how fucked it is. I was like, I'm gonna get a break.

• 1:27Speaker 01

  I, I think before we get into it, this is a really interesting, so Angie Green, hi Angie.

• 1:33Speaker 00

  Hi.

• 1:33Speaker 01

  Hi. Um, we've known each other for a long time, but, um, but I was fascinated. You were just saying before that you don't do small talk.

• 1:41Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:43Speaker 01

  Probably like, but how, like, how did you find the weather today?

• 1:47Speaker 00

  Oh, no.

• 1:50Speaker 01

  You can't, you actually can't do it.

• 1:52Speaker 00

  No, no, like it's, it's literally like my, my brain, it, it, it's like viscerally brain, everything just goes nut. Like, because I think I'm also very nervous that if I'm pretending to be interested, I don't want to come across as.

• 2:08Speaker 01

  Disingenuous.

• 2:09Speaker 00

  Or disingenuous. So it's more like.

• 2:11Speaker 02

  So are you more comfortable saying to someone, I'm not doing this?

• 2:14Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 2:15Speaker 01

  So you'll say that to people?

• 2:17Speaker 00

  I, I have said it to people and I think I say it in a, in a very kind and warm.

• 2:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, you do. You said that's before when we came in, it felt very, you were just like, no, I just, I can't, I can't do it. And I just think, I think a lot of people would like to be able to just not do small talk. Like you, you don't do it anymore, do you?

• 2:35Speaker 02

  I retired.

• 2:36Speaker 01

  You gave up.

• 2:36Speaker 02

  I retired.

• 2:37Speaker 01

  You retired.

• 2:38Speaker 02

  I used to be.

• 2:39Speaker 01

  Can you remember your last small talk?

• 2:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:41Speaker 01

  Really? Really? What was it?

• 2:43Speaker 02

  I've done a keynote at a real estate agent company and a really big one. And I, um, and they went, oh, we'd love you to hang around and chat to people. And then the guy who goes, yeah, he'd love to. And then he left and I was like.

• 2:55Speaker 01

  Oh, hang on. The guy that you're doing with said that you.

• 2:58Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I don't, I don't want to dob him in, but he said, yeah, I'm.

• 3:01Speaker 01

  Just abandoned you and.

• 3:02Speaker 02

  I'm gonna head off. Um, but yeah, he would love to stay and talk to you guys.

• 3:06Speaker 01

  And what did you think?

• 3:07Speaker 02

  I thought, no. At that point I was still, I was still a small talker. And so I went, ah, this feels like a really tiring thing to do. But I did it for half an hour and I was exhausted afterwards and thought, I'm not doing that again. And.

• 3:18Speaker 01

  And you didn't.

• 3:19Speaker 02

  No, I retired. I hung up my vocal cords.

• 3:22Speaker 01

  So, so the next time, so since then.

• 3:25Speaker 02

  I don't think I've done.

• 3:26Speaker 01

  No, I actually have seen it because we've been at events together and we've been like talking to people that we're just meeting for the first time. And it's sort of a corporate environment. And after a few minutes, I just noticed that you're just standing there. You're not talking.

• 3:46Speaker 02

  So Angie Green is an anti-discrimination advocate. Is that the best? Yeah. I was trying to work out the best way to describe it, but let's just, you are so good at it, at anti-discriminatory ambassadorship. That Sia in 2017, when she won her ARIA, the best female artist, asked you to go and accept it. On behalf of her. That's how good you are.

• 4:11Speaker 01

  I didn't know that.

• 4:12Speaker 00

  So, so what is amazing about this?

• 4:16Speaker 02

  This is not true.

• 4:16Speaker 00

  I'm Sia. No. What's amazing about this is, so yes, that, that is incredible. And I'm just as shocked and surprised as anyone else. But what was the best part about it is, you know, there was like the Kylie Minoots and the Ian Thorbs and Hugh Jackman, like all these amazing people that a lot of people really, really know and universally know.

• 4:44Speaker 01

  That were at the event?

• 4:45Speaker 00

  Oh, just, you know, to represent Australia, like for, for the, for the ARIA award. And so when I got asked by the campaign and they said, oh, Sia has, Sia has chosen you. And I've gone, but nobody knows who I am. And they go, that's why.

• 5:03Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 5:05Speaker 00

  And I was like, that is perfect. Like, like it was actually like.

• 5:10Speaker 02

  That's why.

• 5:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. She, she, I, my understanding is that she wanted someone.

• 5:14Speaker 01

  We wanted to complete nobody.

• 5:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, literally. And you know, wanted someone who was really passionate about this space, who was an ally. Because research and what have you shows that allyship is one of the most, uh, biggest factors when it comes to change. And, you know, there was, there was a bit behind the thought process, but she's like, that one, I don't know her.

• 5:35Speaker 02

  But you've also been doing years and years of work.

• 5:37Speaker 00

  Yes, yeah.

• 5:38Speaker 02

  As an ally for queer folk. What, what led you down the path of, um, anti-discrimination work?

• 5:45Speaker 00

  Yeah. Great question. I've just always felt as a little person, um, no matter what it was, whether it was like bullying or, you know, people getting singled out or what have you. It just really affected me. Um, I, I think I've always kind of been pretty passionate about social justice. And especially, you know, minority groups and, and groups who don't have certain, or the same rights as everyone else. But, and I obviously couldn't articulate that as a little person or as a teenager. But that became a little bit more clearer to me when, like, I, I grew up in a professional sporting family.

• 6:24Speaker 00

  Like my, my oldest brother, he played AFL, um, for five years and VFL for three. My dad, uh, is in the Hawthorn Hall of Fame.

• 6:34Speaker 02

  Russell Green.

• 6:35Speaker 00

  And Frank Sedg, my pop, who's still with us at 98, um, went, won tennis grand slams.

• 6:41Speaker 02

  22 of them.

• 6:41Speaker 00

  And so.

• 6:42Speaker 01

  22?

• 6:43Speaker 02

  22.

• 6:44Speaker 00

  And so.

• 6:45Speaker 01

  Jesus, what?

• 6:46Speaker 02

  So he's like behind Rob Byrnes.

• 6:48Speaker 00

  And I literally can't fucking walk in a straight line. So like I lost, I literally have no sporting ability.

• 6:55Speaker 02

  What was that like, growing up in a, in a, like sporting royalty family?

• 6:59Speaker 00

  Well, well.

• 7:00Speaker 01

  Did you love sport?

• 7:01Speaker 00

  No, I hated it. And, and this is, I guess, like what comes back to my reasons and personal reasons of being so passionate. About fighting against sexual and gender discrimination, especially in, you know, very male heteronormative cultures. Cause I grew up in that environment and without, you know, being able to articulate it when I was younger, I was like, I just found it racist, homophobic, sexist. I just, I just didn't like it. And, uh, a few things were kind of happened, uh, at once at around like the age of 13. My middle brother, who is also a freak athlete, uh, he came out to me when I was 13.

• 7:46Speaker 02

  And how old was he?

• 7:46Speaker 00

  As gay? 15.

• 7:48Speaker 02

  15, okay.

• 7:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, nearly six, yeah, 15, 16.

• 7:50Speaker 02

  Do you remember it? Do you remember that conversation pretty well?

• 7:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:53Speaker 02

  How did it go? What was the?

• 7:55Speaker 00

  Um, he pretty much just told me that, that he, that he was gay. And I had like no type of reaction and because I knew. Anyway, and he was like, do you, do you understand what I'm telling you? And I'm like, yeah.

• 8:14Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 8:15Speaker 00

  I don't do small talk. Shut up. No, I was just, I, you know, so I, I.

• 8:20Speaker 01

  That is pretty big talk.

• 8:21Speaker 00

  So from, from that were the kind of things that I saw and then what other people saw. So people would have seen both of my brothers go to school, private schools, be very good at athletics and sport. And, you know, happy, smart people, very brave, very brave face. But I kind of saw all the behind the scenes stuff, which I, I found really heartbreaking because just as a human being, I could not understand why. You know, anyone would, would feel shame for being who they are or who they love or who they're attracted to and, and what have you. So, and then, yeah, just as you do when you grow up, I just notice little things here and there.

• 9:06Speaker 00

  And like my brother flinching in certain social situations when certain things would be said. Like a lot of gay and bisexual men, he intentionally excluded himself from male team dominated sports at around the age of 15. Because of the homophobic language and behaviour, whether that was intentional or not, it has exactly the same impact. I learnt a lot more just through growing up about sexuality, about gender, identity. And there was not one part of me that could understand how this was a, a thing. Like why people getting bullied for this? Why people ashamed of themselves because of who they are?

• 9:45Speaker 00

  Why? I could not fathom it. And I finished school in 2004. And, you know, I went to Melbourne Girls Grammar and I remember like doing an art piece of love. And it was photography and in one of the things, two men were holding hands. And mine was the only piece that couldn't be shown in the art exhibition because it was controversial. And, and we're, and we're not even speaking like, no, but wait, we're not even.

• 10:17Speaker 01

  Wow, that's one for the video.

• 10:19Speaker 00

  No, sorry.

• 10:22Speaker 00

  So, so meaning.

• 10:23Speaker 03

  That's an action that's never been done on this show before.

• 10:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I suspect will never be done again.

• 10:28Speaker 02

  She was doing a sexual act.

• 10:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:31Speaker 00

  I won't have demons about that at all. Don't worry.

• 10:34Speaker 03

  You shouldn't.

• 10:35Speaker 02

  That was wonderful.

• 10:37Speaker 00

  Anyway, when Brent was 18, he.

• 10:41Speaker 03

  So Brent's your.

• 10:42Speaker 00

  Sorry, yeah, my middle brother. Yes. He came out to my dad at the end of year 12. And this is the thing, like, even though I knew that Brent was part of a, and we all are, part of a very loving family and safe family. For him to feel that way, I was like, oh my, like, imagine if other people didn't have support systems or, you know, they didn't feel safe to, to be around people and what have you. So, but yeah, when, when he came out to my dad, I knew it would go well. But this was a real highlight to me of like, the impact that words and behaviour have.

• 11:25Speaker 00

  Brent, yeah, told dad that he was, he was gay and dad turned around and said, because he was bawling, like, he was.

• 11:33Speaker 03

  No, dad was.

• 11:33Speaker 00

  My dad was, sorry. My dad was absolutely bawling. And, but then he turned around and he said, Brent, I'm not crying because you're gay. I'm crying because I could have helped and I, and I didn't know. And why I share that story and I share it with permission, because it's not part of my whole story, is in that moment, and dad has spoken very publicly about this, in this moment, dad was like, the, the amount of times that he unintentionally used those type of homophobic slurs around Brent, around his friends, around, you know, just, and not even thinking about it. And, you know, he has openly said that not knowing how many

• 12:16Speaker 00

  people he potentially hurt during the process, growing up, being a teenager and then a young man in footy and in society, it's one of his biggest regrets, not knowing how many people he hurt. And he was saying it unintentionally. I've always been really fascinated by sociology, psychology, counselling, like, why, why certain things intertwine and don't, and cultures and environments and what have you. And that's my background as well. Like, my background is six years of studying in counselling, sociology and psychology. And the other reason why I'm so passionate about, especially this community

• 12:56Speaker 00

  is, and I focus a lot of my study around this, is that the LGBTQ plus community are four to five times more likely to take their own lives than straight people. You know, 14% more likely to attempt suicide, with that first attempt being around 16, with 50% of the transgender community attempting suicide at least once in their lives. And.

• 13:22Speaker 01

  50%.

• 13:23Speaker 00

  50% attempted. This is why when homophobic slurs are happening in the AFL, this is why it's such a big fucking deal. And the, the stats around, yeah, mental health, especially around LGBTQ youth, is, is terrifying. And as someone who, yeah, has also lost friends to suicide at a, at a younger age, I, from a personal level, but then also like from a research level, I was just like, what the, like, what is going on? People are literally taking their lives because they don't feel safe to be themselves in every room that they walk in.

• 14:06Speaker 00

  And that's just, it's not, that's not okay. It's not acceptable.

• 14:12Speaker 01

  Hi, it's Ryan from The Imperfects, and I'm reaching out to you now because we need your help, gosh darn it.

• 14:18Speaker 03

  What, why do we need?

• 14:20Speaker 01

  Sorry, no, I'm just making a plea to the listeners and viewers to ask them to subscribe to the show in whichever way they see fit, because it really helps. The more subscribers, the better we can make this show, am I right?

• 14:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I don't think we need to, I think we could just ask them politely.

• 14:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, but if I use the emotional music.

• 14:38Speaker 03

  I think the music's a bit much.

• 14:39Speaker 01

  Is it?

• 14:40Speaker 02

  Who's playing that music?

• 14:41Speaker 01

  Doesn't matter who's playing the music. The important thing is, we're pulling at the heartstrings and asking them to do us a solid.

• 14:47Speaker 03

  Could we not just ask, like, just ask them straight? Like.

• 14:49Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 14:50Speaker 03

  It'd really help us if you guys subscribed, because we would be able to make more of the show and make the show better.

• 14:55Speaker 01

  Oh, and not use emotional manipulation.

• 14:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 14:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, I reckon.

• 14:59Speaker 01

  Well, we can give it a go, but I doubt it'll work.

• 15:02Speaker 03

  I'm intrigued by your upbringing. I am kind of fascinated by this sort of two things happening at once, the way you described that this very sort of, it sounds like a childhood dominated by big male sporting figures. And a lot of the, as we've just discussed, the, the general, not to point the finger at them generally, but that traditionally has come with a sort of, a, I guess, a bubble of homophobia that sort of surrounds that world of male sport. But then you clearly grew up in a family where, when push came to shove, the, your dad's response was, was nothing but love and support for your brother.

• 15:47Speaker 03

  And that you grew up with this feeling and your brother obviously saw it in you, that this feeling of like, why is this a big deal? And why is this, and a clear, a very clear moral compass on this issue. I'm kind of, I'd love to get your read on where you think that moral compass and that sort of sense of right and wrong came from.

• 16:08Speaker 00

  Um, that's a great question. I think my brain is a little bit different. And I, I know what it feels like to live in shame and to be really scared about opening up, about things that you experience. And, and I, I don't know whether that's a level as well of like, once you can put yourself in someone's shoes of like, God, I just, I hope someone understands me. I hope someone respects me. I hope someone doesn't question

• 16:48Speaker 00

  me in my experience and existence. I think it's a lot easier to, to be able to want that for other people as well.

• 16:58Speaker 03

  Beautiful answer.

• 16:59Speaker 02

  So you're the co-host of an incredible, incredible, incredible podcast, It's Not What You Think. And I, and you've just sort of touched on your brain there. And so it might be a nice segue to talk about your experience with OCD, because it is a huge part of who you are.

• 17:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:16Speaker 01

  And that podcast, just to make it clear, is, is co-hosted with Hugh's wife, Penny Moody.

• 17:21Speaker 00

  We're trying to get rid of her, actually. She just drags the whole team.

• 17:26Speaker 01

  Oh, I'm so sorry. That's, that's really hard. I've, I've heard the podcast and I can, I know what you mean. I know what you mean.

• 17:36Speaker 03

  We were joking.

• 17:38Speaker 02

  I assumed so.

• 17:41Speaker 01

  Just to make it super clear.

• 17:44Speaker 02

  I went to an event the other night that you guys hosted, and it was, you, you described, I heard you say, after, it's the best thing I've ever been a part of in my life, that event. And it was extraordinary for so many reasons, which I'm happy to elaborate on, but I might sort of throw to you to talk about that. Not so much the event, but your experience of OCD. And I feel like what you've done with your experience of OCD is kind of what you've done with your experience with your brother is like, okay, this is what's happening. And now how can I create, with Penny, how can we create a community where people belong?

• 18:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, totally. So Penny, yeah, my co-host, she, I think people say this and they don't really mean it, but Penny literally saved my life. And I mean that in the sense of actually being able to live a life how I envisioned or how I had always hoped for. Meaning OCD is, to me, one of the most misrepresented disorders that, that there is.

• 18:58Speaker 00

  It stands for obsessive compulsive disorder. Obsessions are just what they sound like. So we get, or I get intrusive thoughts that I obsess over, and they're usually very much my worst fears. And they really scare me. And in order for people with OCD to try and get rid of their fear and doubt and anxiety.

• 19:24Speaker 02

  And their thoughts.

• 19:25Speaker 00

  And their thoughts, yep. They will do compulsions. Now, the idea of a compulsion is to do something to reassure themselves that that didn't happen, or I'm not that person, or this thing isn't real, or whatever it might be. And that could be internal or external. A lot of my compulsions are internal, so they're invisible to other people. But, you know, other people will do external compulsions to try and get rid of a, a thought or a feeling. It doesn't matter what they are, whether, whether they're internal, external or a mix of both. It's all to try and get rid of these thoughts and these feelings

• 20:08Speaker 00

  that OCD brings up. However, the agonizing and debilitating part of OCD is, all that compulsions do is make it grow, make the obsessions grow, make it worse, make it deeper, make it stickier.

• 20:24Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 20:25Speaker 00

  And growing up, like, my, my first memories is OCD. And that's really scary in a small brain, in a small body. And even scarier when you continue to grow up and you don't know what's going on. You think that you might be wired a bit differently to the people around you. But then also, when you look at examples of OCD, it's the stereotypes of washing hands and matching socks and all that kind of stuff. And anyone that knows me is like, I'm a mess, like a, like a disaster. And before I got diagnosed, I was like, oh,

• 21:10Speaker 00

  I don't have OCD because I'm not that. And then when I finally did get diagnosed with it, it was, uh, it was both a relief and really liberating. However, um, the loneliness was still exacerbated because I'd never ever heard anyone present the way that I did. And it's, I hate it. I fucking hate it. I wouldn't wish it upon anyone. And up until hearing Penny's episode on the imperfects, the reason why I say she saved my life is

• 21:47Speaker 00

  because that was the first time in thirty-three years that I was like, oh my God, there's one other person like me. And if there's one, awesome. Like that's, that's all. I just need to know that that people like this exist. And slid into her DMs and I just like thanked her so much for being visible and brave because it's not, it's not super comfortable to, to speak about. And to be honest, if, if this was five years ago, I, I wouldn't. There, there's no way I would speak openly about having the types of OCD that, that I do.

• 22:30Speaker 00

  However, Penny and I and Alison, the reason why we do what we do is because knowing that other people feel that lonely and alone in this disorder is gut wrenching. And we just want people to know that they're, they're so not alone.

• 22:52Speaker 03

  So can you give us examples as a, as a little girl, your memories of it? What, what were your first thoughts or?

• 22:57Speaker 00

  One of my first memories is writing fuck on a big piece of paper, like fuck, you know, like I'm gonna get him. But who, you know, like, so, you know, but just like felt like a real.

• 23:08Speaker 03

  Stick it to them.

• 23:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It felt like a real badass and whatever. And then I felt sick. Like I was like, oh my God, I'm the worst. I'm, oh my God, I'm the worst person in the world. This is so bad. This is bad. And ripped it up into like, you know, millions of different pieces and placed it strategically around the bin because I thought if they were placed in the bin next to each other, just like as a scrunched up piece of paper, that the bin person would of course go through the bin and find the evidence and then would call the police. And every Wednesday for a few months, I think,

• 23:49Speaker 00

  um, before I just latched onto some, some other type of theme or obsession. Um, every week I was really paranoid that the, that the bin person had put all of the evidence together. They knew my handwriting. They were going to come to my house and they were going to take me away from my family and I was going to go to jail because I was the worst kid in the world. And it wasn't just that every Wednesday or whatever it was, when the bin person was coming. It was every day. I was like, is it gonna be, like, is it gonna be this week? And how can I prevent it? Is there any way I could go through the rubbish? Like, how would I know where my rubbish is if I could?

• 24:29Speaker 00

  And a lot of OCD always comes back to essentially being a bad person, feeling like you're responsible for any type of pain, whether it's your own or someone else's. And as I grew up, it just got more and more insidious by nature, which I'm really happy to, to speak about because like I know how many people now, since starting the podcast, like experience some of the themes that, that I have. And it is really hard to talk about, but again, like this is what OCD can look like. And

• 25:09Speaker 00

  yeah, I just really don't want these beautiful people to feel alone because OCD people are some of the most generous, beautiful, trustworthy and kind people that even the mere thought of what they're thinking and the way that their body is reacting makes them feel physically sick.

• 25:34Speaker 03

  Yeah. It, it seems like from the way hearing you describe it and hearing some of the things Penny has told me, that it, you would have to have such a strong, uh, moral compass, um, strong empathy, ability to empathize other people and notice sort of, I guess, and a, and a sort of extreme sort of social awareness and intelligence to be able to have that visceral reaction. Cause if you didn't have that at your core, you wouldn't, like, how could you, how, how, how could you care? If you didn't, if it wasn't contrary to something that you truly believe was the right thing to do in inverted commas. Does that make sense?

• 26:12Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 26:12Speaker 03

  It speaks to a.

• 26:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:14Speaker 03

  Yeah. It's kind of a, it's, I don't know. It's a kind of curse.

• 26:19Speaker 00

  Absolutely. At like, it, it's an, it's an absolute curse. And we're not idiots. Like we're actually insanely lol. Self-aware, like to the point where I think it would be, and, and again, I don't want to like discredit any other type of mental disorders and what have you, but like, if I was genuinely crazy, I think that that would be easier. Cause there would be no like logic to, to certain things or like an understanding of like where this is coming from and why this is so haunting for me. It would just be like, I'm fucking crazy. Rock on. Like it, you know, instead of like, wait, I, I actually know how ridiculous this, this is, but it is like.

• 27:02Speaker 03

  But I can't stop it.

• 27:03Speaker 00

  But I can't stop it. And it is like, it feels like I'm constantly in like inception. It, it's like OCD is on my face. It's in my bones. It's trying to get out of my skin. Like the thoughts that I'm having, all the visualizations I'm seeing, it's like, well, this has to be real because this is what my body is showing me and I can, you know, did I, did I kiss that person at my wedding in front of my husband? Like it, like again, like that is just, that just sounds absolutely bat shit. But it's like, well, I know what it feels like to kiss someone. And I've just had this false memory of, but was it a false memory? Or is it a false memory built on a real memory? And it's just, it just goes on and on. And I've done the most embarrassing

• 27:49Speaker 00

  stuff, like some of it now is really, like it is, it is actually really funny. But then I was like, this is the only answer. This is the only answer. How am I gonna get? Oh, so, so, uh, two, oh my God, so, okay, three. We'll do three. Um, because it'll also weave into like how insidious it can also be. So one of them would be, uh, I was a sexually active young woman. Um, I was single, meaning no matter what I did out there, I wasn't, you know, hurting other, like a partner or, you know, other people around me or, you know, whatever it might be. But because of my intrusive

• 28:33Speaker 00

  thoughts and I was just like, sex is off the, like it's, it's off the table at the moment. Um, I, I'm, I'm not having sex with anyone. I can kiss people, but I'm not having sex with anyone.

• 28:48Speaker 03

  Because of a thought, a thought you were having. Yeah.

• 28:50Speaker 00

  Yeah. So many people suffered during that year. No, but, no, no, but I, you know, and, and so I was like, oh, I, I, that, that was like my rule. However, during that, I don't know, what, what ten months or a year or whatever, I, I did a pregnancy test almost every month. And.

• 29:10Speaker 03

  Even when you weren't having sex.

• 29:12Speaker 00

  No sex. But then, and so don't worry, like anyone listening or, you know, you guys listening, just going, that just, that is so outrageous. Like it's so ridiculous. But in the moment, you don't find reassurance with anything. So it's like, oh, actually I didn't wee on the stick properly. Or what if someone else weighed in the toilet under me? And then when I weed it, weed up and you know, like, or it's someone else's DNA and like all that kind of stuff. And, you know, things like, oh, but maybe the last person I slept with, maybe their sperm's just like waiting to grow. Like as if it just lives in your body.

• 29:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 29:53Speaker 00

  You know, like it's just in storage. Like seriously, like it just.

• 29:56Speaker 03

  Hold, hold.

• 29:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wait till she's obsessing. We were, yeah, totally. Like it's, it's, it's absolutely bat shit. And also it's like, I would, I'm not religious, but like, I would actually have to be Mother Berry, I assume, to fall. Right. And then it's like, well, am I Mother Berry? You know, like it's fucking, it's bat shit.

• 30:16Speaker 03

  But you have to go through all of these possible scenarios because you can't accept that you're definitely not pregnant.

• 30:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:23Speaker 00

  And there cannot be any doubt. And the scariest thing with OCD is we doubt the doubt itself. So it, there is no end. There is no end to the doubt. Another one would be, I'm quite an, an affectionate, um, person, like love hugging people. And this is how also invisible compulsions can be. I, for, there was about a year where I didn't drink like an ounce of alcohol, which is, isn't a bad thing, but like because I was too scared of what my brain could do when it was under the influence. And I wouldn't kiss, uh, family members and relatives, um, on the cheek.

• 31:08Speaker 00

  Cause I would convince myself that I was incestuous. And yeah.

• 31:13Speaker 03

  Just from a kiss on the cheek?

• 31:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, okay.

• 31:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, because.

• 31:17Speaker 00

  Ryan, was it the cheek or did I get the corner of their mouth? And if I got the corner of the mouth, did I get their tongue? Did I get, and it ju, like it, my brain goes from zero to one million in less than a second.

• 31:29Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 31:29Speaker 00

  And I, it's really scary. Um, and so what I would do as a compulsion, which again, of course, didn't work, is when I went to go and kiss them on the cheek. I'm trying, I'm remembering I'm on a podcast, but I would put my lips.

• 31:43Speaker 01

  You'd hide your lips.

• 31:45Speaker 00

  Hide my lips and almost go as far as the ear, right? So I was like, my, I'm literally biting down on my lips inside my mouth. I'm going for the ear. So there is absolutely no possible chance that I am kissing this relative on the lips. But then it would be like, but your tongue can feel lips, cause my lips would be inside my mouth. And so it's like, oh my God, so did I kiss, wait, hang on, did I kiss someone? Cause I felt lips, but they were my own and like it just.

• 32:19Speaker 01

  And they, and these, I imagine are, are their thoughts that you, you probably feel too embarrassed or whatever to, to sort of ask for reassurance, or you can't say to your auntie or whatever, hey, I know this is a weird question. Did we, we didn't just kiss on the lips or, you know, you can't, you can't ask for reassurance.

• 32:40Speaker 00

  I know, and this is where OCDs get really clever. Say if it was my auntie, for example, you'd scan their reaction anytime that they were near you. And it would be like, oh, they do seem a bit distant today. Is this because I tried to kiss them or I did kiss them last week? Or, you know, do they think I'm inappropriate? Like there's just, it, it is really, really never ending. And one of my biggest ones has been, um, cheating and relationship OCD. Now I want to say as well that like, I know really beautiful and great people who have made mistakes and cheated on their partners and what have you. So like, I'm not saying that if you cheat, you're a bad person and that's a life sentence, what have you, not saying that at all.

• 33:24Speaker 00

  However, OCD tricks you into like, how can the most important thing for me get taken away? And how can it be all my fault? And it's no one else's fault. I'm responsible for everything. Again, speaking about being nervous about sharing it, like I've been with my husband now for 13 years. And I've had, like, uh, you know, I've had conversations with him where I'm like, I think this happened. But when I say I think it did, I know that it didn't, but I'm so scared it did. And I need you to know that I am aware of the thoughts and feelings, even though he's just like, oh, what is, you know, confessing to him as well.

• 34:06Speaker 00

  It's like, I have, I've even just had the thought that I kissed someone else, but I didn't. And I didn't, you know, and like, like literally could have done anything from being in a nightclub to being at village cinema movies. Like it, it doesn't matter the context, like I will find a way to cheat on him. Like, you know, and it's just, and, and it's all false and it's all.

• 34:28Speaker 01

  But in that situation, if it's like cheating, the, are you picturing the person that you think you've cheated on him with?

• 34:37Speaker 00

  That's a great question, cause it, it depends, but this is where, um, false memory comes in. For example, like we're all here, aren't we? No, we're all here. And it'd be like, if, um, Ryan, like, when I walked in, you were the first person that I kissed on the cheek and gave you a big hug. Um, an example of a false memory would be as soon as that happens, me going, I put, like, I put my hand up his shirt. Or I, you know, I pulled him into the room and, so it is actually.

• 35:18Speaker 01

  Oh, so in terms of even like separate to, cause the hand up the top, I guess is that was in the embrace. That could have accidentally happened, but the pulling into another room, you're even misremembering, or it's a false memory of the fact that we've gone into another room.

• 35:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, totally.

• 35:34Speaker 01

  That happens as well.

• 35:35Speaker 00

  Cause you were like, oh, come, like come in the room. And so that all happened, right? But with false memory, that is the memory, but it will facade it around the last thing I would want to do, which would be to hurt my partner. This is why it does, it's so debilitating. This is why it does so much to your own self-worth and like dignity. Because I have called like friends of friends the next day who like, probably didn't even know that I was like at the party.

• 36:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:11Speaker 00

  And I'm like, hey, um, I'm just wondering, like, I know that this might sound, but, um, did we, you know, like, and I've asked them, like, did we kiss last night or whatever? And they're literally like, I, I don't know what you're talking about. But then of course I'm like, well, of course they're gonna say that because, um, they don't want to tell me the truth and blah, blah. And, but we, I already know that it's.

• 36:35Speaker 01

  Will you tell them that you have OCD and this is where it's coming from?

• 36:38Speaker 00

  Well, so it got to a stage where the, the funniest one with the cheating one is I called a venue and I was like, could I please have your CCTV footage?

• 36:47Speaker 01

  CCTV footage?

• 36:50Speaker 00

  And they were like, I know, right? This is the depth.

• 36:53Speaker 01

  Can you do that?

• 36:54Speaker 00

  No, you absolutely cannot, which I found out by the way, so no one, no one try. I called and I was like, hi, I was there from, you know, whatever, like nine till 12. If I could just get that and, um, I can't remember the exact words. It was a venue in St Kilda and the person was like, I'm sorry, what's this regarding? And are you with the police? And I was like, no, but I just really liked the footage. And they were like, absolutely not. But the thing is, if I got that footage, Ryan, which I, I know already sounds bonkers, but if I got that footage and I watched it, watched it, watched it, re-watched it. By the way, a lot of these times that I have these cheating, like horrific thoughts, I'm with my partner.

• 37:39Speaker 00

  I'm with my husband, like we are in the same room.

• 37:43Speaker 01

  Room.

• 37:44Speaker 00

  Haven't left each other's side, like it's, yeah, but I would have watched that and watched that and then been like, oh no, there was a glitch. That's when it happened.

• 37:52Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 37:53Speaker 00

  That's when it happened. So you, you can never find any type of relief with, with the compulsions and the reassurance seeking.

• 38:02Speaker 01

  Obviously the great fear there is that you jeopardising your marriage and, but is it, it sounds like it's, you said, relationship OCD. Is it like, is this fear of hurting someone or hurting people?

• 38:19Speaker 00

  Totally. How OCD represents in me, there's, the mistrust is always, so OCD feeds off mistrust. It feeds off doubt, it feeds off, you know, your worst fears coming true. And it'll find in any capacity, the way to do that. Like I've had the experience with my children as well. And that's horrifying. No, no parent ever wants their child to feel pain or hurt. And so OCD will show me the exact ways of convincing me

• 39:04Speaker 00

  that I'm a monster and responsible for any and all of their present or future pain.

• 39:13Speaker 02

  I feel like for people with OCD, they're the most incredible people, because I look at how much they manage to achieve day to day in their life with this going on all the time. And when Penny gets into a spiral, I have this image in my head of like her brain. If you were to do some kind of scanner and if OCD was visible, it would be like 99% of her brain is like this red kind of cloud. But she's still, she's still getting by each day. Sometimes it's, it is too much for her, but, and I'm, I'm just so, like the exhaustion, like the fatigue with trying to battle through, like a regular day to do, especially if you're a parent, you're trying to parent

• 39:56Speaker 02

  or you're trying to work, but you've got these demons, well demons is probably an unfair word, but just like this.

• 40:01Speaker 00

  It is a fair word.

• 40:02Speaker 02

  Um, your, your 99% of your brain is battling something which feels just ridiculous, but you can't stop it. The, when we were, um, when we were away on holidays, I, I'm always trying to think of like what it would be like. And we, I was holding our four-year-old next to the pool and he can't swim. And I had a, and I had a thought of what would happen if I dropped him in and I sort of imagined it for like two or three seconds. Like, oh, that's a horrific thought, get it out of my head. And it came back again and it was probably like, probably for 10 seconds, like, oh, get out, that's an awful thought. Oh my God, that's horrific. So I kind of literally pictured him instead of drowning and that I'd done it. And then I went, oh no, that's fucked. I don't want to think about that. And it was gone.

• 40:44Speaker 02

  And then I thought, gosh, for Penny, offering with OCD, that, that awful 10 seconds I had, that could be two weeks. It could be a month and it just, and that's, you can't get rid of it. There's nothing, in fact, the more you try and get rid of it, the more it, it clings on.

• 40:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:59Speaker 02

  Um, almost like quicksand, like the more you're fighting it, the more you.

• 41:02Speaker 00

  The bigger it.

• 41:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. And so I just think of a, I, I just think how amazing the OCD brain is that you can continue. Like you look at all the stuff you've done, you know, in your advocacy work and your activism, to be able to do that whilst you're dealing with this brain, which is like, attacks the thing you care most about. That's what it kind of feels like to me with Penny, whatever she cares most about, it'll attack that. And so I just think people that said it, extraordinary for getting through each day. We spoke to Rick Davies about his experience as well and I, I, it's quite amazing what you're capable of.

• 41:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, thank you. Well, yeah, I don't really know how to respond to that, cause there's no other choice. But Bree, Bree, your producer, who was so beautiful, um, said something really simple, but beautiful when we had our, you know, pre-interview speaking about what we might chat about. And I told her about the story of not having sex for a year and whatever. And she was like, oh, Angie, that's such a cost to you. What else has OCD cost you? And that was really fascinating to me because I didn't even think of that being a costly thing, like not having sex for a year, whatever, like,

• 42:26Speaker 00

  whatever, when it dawned on me how.

• 42:31Speaker 00

  Consuming this is, when I heard Penny, when I got onto Andrea, our psychologist, when I started getting the right help and therapy for OCD, that's how my life changed. And I'll never forget, I think I was thirty four, thirty five, I'm now thirty nine, like, trying so hard with my homework and then walking, and it may have only been like a minute, but just walking down the street and I, I felt something on my face and I realised like, it was wind. And I was like, this is one of the first times in my entire life where I've been present in the moment.

• 43:12Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 43:13Speaker 00

  Like, that's how fucking horrific and consuming it is. And so when speaking to Bridge about it, I was like, it's cost me peace, it's cost me some of like, the best moments of my life. And whether that's just like, the best family barbecue ever, or, you know, the birth of children and everything in between, being with my best friends who are like my soulmates, wedding day, achieving things with the charity, like all this kind of stuff. It, it's not that I'm not capable of feeling those things in the moment, but like, say if it was excitement

• 43:58Speaker 00

  and joy, and it was meant to be at a hundred, it'll be at a ten, I imagine. I, I was having obsessions when I was in labour. That is the worst physical pain I have ever been in. And before going into labour, this is how fucked it is. I was like, I'm gonna get a break. I literally was looking forward to labouring, cause I was like, oh my god.

• 44:23Speaker 01

  Okay, my brain will let me out.

• 44:25Speaker 00

  My, my brain will quieten down. But that's how, yeah, that's how powerful it is even through the most horrendous physical pain I've ever experienced in my life. And when people do kind of say to people like me, and I know it's well intentioned most of the time, but you know, like, oh, just don't think about it, or, you know, like chill, or whatever. I need people to understand, that is, that is literally like saying to an asthmatic, mate, there's so much air, just, just breathe. Like how patronising. Or, you know, saying to a blind person, just open your eyes.

• 45:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:03Speaker 00

  Like, look, look, just look. And it's like.

• 45:05Speaker 01

  Trust me, I would if I could.

• 45:06Speaker 00

  Oh mate, I would love to, you know, it, it, it really is the same thing. Or I can work around recovery, being the best version of myself and healthiest version I can with OCD. Um, however, yeah, it's stolen decades of my, of my life. And there's, so there's a lot of grief in that as well. And Hugh, just really quickly going back to your story. I want people to know as well that it is very normal to have intrusive thoughts. Our brains are actually designed to, to have intrusive thoughts. The difference between, I assume without knowing everything about you Hugh, but like,

• 45:49Speaker 00

  I assume the difference between you and I is you can get that thought and be like, that yuck, I, I didn't like that. You might get reassurance once or twice and it's done. With OCD, there's no doing, there's no done, it's just constant until you, yeah, get the right help.

• 46:12Speaker 01

  When people do say like, just flippantly like, sorry, I'm a bit, bit OCD, like if they, you know, they want a tidy desk or something like that. When they do say that and they just ignorantly don't understand and they don't know what OCD truly is or can be. Is that, is it really offensive? Like, how does it, how does it land?

• 46:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's really interesting, cause it also depends what mood I'm in. So when people, and I know it's, I know it's not intentional, I know that. However, it is my core belief that if they knew what OCD was, you would never, ever use it as a punchline or a joke. To me, it's literally like the same as being like, oh, sorry, I spilled that, that's just my cancer.

• 47:02Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 47:02Speaker 00

  And again, it's, I, I know people aren't trying to be offensive and you don't know what you don't know. However, I just wish that they would know because, I mean, there were three months of my life where I'd start the day vomiting in the shower, cause of how sick my obsessions and my body reactions were to them. And it's like, yeah, if you're comparing that with, I've got to have my pen clicked off or what have you, I just can't, I can't resonate with that. But then there's also like, a bit of humour in, in it as well, where this beautiful school mum that I go to school with, who is so put together and she's so lovely.

• 47:45Speaker 00

  And she said to me once in a, um, in a school play yard kids' party.

• 47:54Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 47:54Speaker 00

  Great. And goes, oh Angie, I just actually heard that, um, you do a podcast. And I'm like, oh yeah, I do. And she's like, yeah, but like, it's about like, you know, like OCD and, you know, is it just you? Or, you know, who do you, who do you interview, blah, blah? And why do you, why OCD? And I said, oh, I do it with, um, my co-host, Penny Moodie, and also another person, Alison Koska. And it's actually about, yeah, living with, with OCD and we interview experts and, you know, shared experiences, guests, you know, blah, blah, what have you. And she goes, I could only imagine you with a co-host, you know, about being like, mums being organised

• 48:37Speaker 00

  and like getting their days or whatever. And usually I'd be like, oh, we'll let that slide. And I went, yeah, no, it's more like, um, a couple of Christmases ago, I had a false memory that I raped my cousin.

• 48:54Speaker 00

  Which obviously we're not laughing about the co-

• 48:56Speaker 01

  No.

• 48:57Speaker 00

  But, but, but, and this poor bitch was like, she, this, she, no, but like, bless her. Cause she was speaking about scanning reactions, she was like, oh my god. But she knew I was dead serious, cause I was like, you know, like, that's what OCD is. And she goes, this is, she had the best reaction, she goes, oh, was the cousin, um, male or female?

• 49:24Speaker 00

  And I go, I go, oh, don't worry, Tenille, um, female. So then, enter all the thoughts of, am I actually gay? Am I incestuously gay? Like, it, you know, like, there's no answer or whatever. And she, I just loved that that was her reaction, cause she was like.

• 49:38Speaker 01

  What's a question?

• 49:39Speaker 00

  Where would you, where would you go with that? But the reason why I went hard and heavy and very just quickly is cause I'm like, that's just a snapshot of, of what some people go through. And, and I know it's a hideous thing to, to say out loud and there was a shock factor to it and, and what have you. But I, I really, just in that moment, I just wanted her to know how, what it actually is for people.

• 50:08Speaker 01

  And did, did it improve at all when you started getting help? Like?

• 50:13Speaker 00

  Yeah. And this is, again, this is why I'm like, Penny did save my life because I got onto her psychologist, um, Andrea Wallace. I call her the wizard, um, because she's, she's just amazing. And this is where a lot of the grief, um, Ryan comes in as well. Cause I was like, I've been in, I've been in therapy since I was nineteen years old with diagnosed OCD. And I saw people who were wonderful, but also on their website were like, specialising OCD and, and what have you. So I thought that what my therapy was doing was right for me.

• 50:54Speaker 00

  But we are, we need a whole different strategy. Like you, you cannot beat or manage OCD with talk therapy. We need a specific set of skills. And we really have to do our homework. And once I saw Andrea and I was like, if I could have been doing this, this whole time, I wouldn't want anything in my life to, to have changed. But I, I would have wanted to be present in, in all of those moments. And so again, like with the right help, uh, it has been absolutely game changing. And my, yeah, my episodes, I still live with OCD

• 51:37Speaker 00

  every day. Um, is it less severe? Yes. And my, are my episodes less as well? And the duration of them, yes. But it's still something I have to, I have to do an incredible amount to feel even remotely.

• 51:57Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 51:59Speaker 00

  Normal.

• 51:59Speaker 01

  Hmm. So was there something that, I'm just thinking for people who are like, looking for a specific type of therapist, is there something that they should be like looking for? Or is it just the fact that Andrea's just really good?

• 52:13Speaker 00

  Andrea's incredible, but I would, if I had my time again, so I'd just been diagnosed and I was going to ask. A psychologist, if they were right for me, I would be asking the questions of, do you do ERP?

• 52:30Speaker 02

  What's ERP?

• 52:31Speaker 00

  It's exposure response prevention therapy.

• 52:37Speaker 02

  Which looks like, what are you doing there?

• 52:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, so, well, it'll, it'll be different for everyone depending on their compulsions. However, pretty much all of my compulsions are internal. So I scan a lot of previous memories that I've found really difficult to digest. And someone actually asked this the other day. They were like, so what does it look like? And I was like, yeah, so there was once I had to record my own voice like on a loop.

• 53:09Speaker 00

  Saying the most fucked up shit like.

• 53:13Speaker 00

  You're like.

• 53:18Speaker 00

  Maybe I did fuck my cousin, maybe I didn't. Maybe, really, right? And like, oh, maybe I, maybe I do wanna kill my dog. Maybe I don't. Maybe I actually don't love my family at all. Maybe I do. Maybe this is intuition, maybe it's not.

• 53:32Speaker 02

  So it's exposure to whatever the obsession is. Like you're actually feeling what it might feel like if that, yeah.

• 53:38Speaker 00

  Yes, this is just one example. There are so many examples. This is why, like, it's not just strictly this, but for me, and it was doing maybe and maybe not, surrounding it to kind of desensitize.

• 53:50Speaker 02

  And playing it back to yourself.

• 53:51Speaker 00

  And, and playing it back to myself. So not only am I having these thoughts, but I'm listening to them as well. And sitting and looking at a blank wall.

• 54:00Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 54:00Speaker 00

  That was my, that was, that was my homework. Couldn't do it while I was, you know, like on a pram, whatever. I had, like, just had to really focus on it and, and, but I'm also someone who feels things very, very viscerally as well. And I think that's the other misconception about OCD. A lot of people think that the thoughts start first, whereas for me, a lot of the time, it's like, I feel, I, like, I feel guilty. Why do I feel guilty? I must have done something. And then, you know, it just fucking goes haywire. So in terms of asking for a psychologist, I would say ERP, I would say, do you do EMDR and somatic work? Somatic work is working with the body

• 54:42Speaker 00

  to kind of release traumatic feelings and belief systems. So I've had to do like a real, like holistic approach, not just with the brain.

• 54:52Speaker 02

  Just to jump in quickly on the, on the exposure therapy. I can't remember where I heard this story. It might have been through Penny's research for her book. I can't remember, but she told me a story about, I think it was Penny told me about someone who had this intrusive thought that they were gonna kill their baby with a knife and they couldn't go in the kitchen. For fear, because they're like, well, I might grab a knife and I might kill my baby. And so when they had to go in to have their exposure therapy with their psychologist, they had to take their baby in and the psychologist gave them a knife. And said, there you go.

• 55:23Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 55:24Speaker 02

  Jesus. And they just sat there holding the knife. That was their exposure. So exposure, it could be saying, it could be doing things. But it is actually exposing you to the thought.

• 55:33Speaker 00

  Yes, and absolutely. And also,

• 55:37Speaker 00

  I know it sounds, but people who have pedophilia OCD, for example, which is even hard to say out loud, but it's very common and it's very taboo. So these people feel even more unwell. A part of their ERP might be like as simple as walking past a school.

• 55:55Speaker 02

  Fuck.

• 55:56Speaker 00

  And.

• 55:56Speaker 02

  This is the hard, this is incredibly hard to explain to anyone because you're like, it is such a sensitive thing where people are like, what the fu, what do you mean?

• 56:04Speaker 00

  I know. And here, this is, this is the other thing, like when I, I'm, I am really nervous to speak about this, not because like, I don't, I don't care what people think. I only care about the people within the community and you know, them feeling validated and visible and what have you. But it's also, it's like even every story or everything that I've said today, I, I know that I haven't even scratched the surface of what it is like to experience OCD, because with every layer, there's like a million ripple effects that go in eighteen billion different ways. And so it's like, I'm someone who has it and I find it hard to explain. I can't imagine what it is like for

• 56:49Speaker 00

  loved ones around someone with OCD being like, I just don't understand this, or it's so illogical, or of course you wouldn't do that. Like, of, of course you would not do that.

• 57:02Speaker 02

  I do think for people listening who love someone with OCD and are supporting someone with OCD, it's a really hard balance to get right because you're taught very early on, you're not meant to reassure at all, but the person will come to you seeking reassurance. And Penny will come to me with the most outrageous things. And Sam was worried I did this. And I know she didn't, but I'm not allowed to say like.

• 57:25Speaker 03

  Oh, why is that? Why can't you do that?

• 57:26Speaker 02

  Well, because, because when you.

• 57:27Speaker 00

  That's reassurance.

• 57:28Speaker 02

  Because when you give reassurance, it becomes stronger.

• 57:30Speaker 03

  Of course. Okay, yeah.

• 57:31Speaker 02

  I remember Penny telling me a while ago that she was having a memory that she'd read a book a long time ago. And in the book, there was a sex scene. And she read it. And when you read a book, you're sort of picturing it. And she just realized, like a decade later, that one of the people in the book was seventeen years old. And she said, but I was picturing that. So that must make me a pedophile because I was picturing a seventeen year old doing what was in the book. So I'm a pedophile. And I remember going, what? No, that's not. And I went, oh no, hang on. Um, yeah, like it's possible. And she went, what, really? And I went, oh no, um, I, oh God.

• 58:08Speaker 03

  It's hard to answer, isn't it?

• 58:10Speaker 02

  But you might, like, oh, and I was just trapped with like, I'd like, this is, I can't reassure her, even though I know one hundred percent. But just to say to people with OCD, Penny won't always share with me what's going in her brain because even with the person closest to her, it's too hard to share. It's so shameful what she's thinking and she just doesn't wanna say it out loud. Whenever she does, it, it always is such a good thing for us. Like, it's always a good thing. It's never been a bad thing. It's always been, it's always brought us closer. And so I think when you find the right person to share it with, I understand why you, I mean, I totally get why you don't feel comfortable doing it. But in our experience,

• 58:51Speaker 02

  it's always, for me, I always feel like I'm being invited into what's going on, rather than being left on the other. And that always feels like a, like a good thing.

• 59:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think, and that's what's really hard about supporting someone that you love with OCD, because it, it really does almost go against every human instinct that you, you know, you see someone in distress, especially someone that you love, you wanna soothe them, you do wanna reassure them. You want to tell them how much you love them and that, you know, that, that wouldn't have happened and it won't happen and what have you. But of course, yes, that makes the compulsions and the obsessions grow. So I'll never sit here and be like, it, it must be so easy for people because it's, it's, it's not to support someone with something that you can't understand or comprehend. And almost like, because it's invisible being like,

• 59:46Speaker 00

  are you choosing to think these thoughts? Or do like, like if you know that they're not real, why on earth would you? Like, what's, what's the point? Like, what's, and so it kind of goes against everything. Um, but yeah, Sam, my husband has been incredible. And like, yeah, we kind of like have codes of when I'm in a really bad episode. Instead of reassurance seeking, I will say to him, I really wanna tell you something. And I really wanna get reassurance. I just need you to know, I'm in a really bad episode at the moment.

• 1:00:24Speaker 00

  Don't know how long it's gonna last. I just need you to know that I'm in an episode. So if I'm doing things that might seem a bit off or not being myself, that's why. But also you, and this is an agreement that we have. I'm like, you can't, you cannot budge. And all I want to be is like, no, just this once, give me like, you know, just this once, give me, I promise you this time it's different. Reassurance, done. I'm done. But it's never done.

• 1:00:49Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's like a shocking relationship with certainty. Like from my experience with Penny, any uncertainty, even the smallest bit of uncertainty is just like hell.

• 1:01:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, totally. Sitting with any type of question mark, like the puniest type of question mark.

• 1:01:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:10Speaker 00

  Yeah. Doubt, questioning, uncertainty, it's, that, that's all we need. Like, that is all we need. And I think just quickly going back to the event, Hugh, that the reason why I said it was, and I mean this wholeheartedly, it was one of the best nights of my life.

• 1:01:28Speaker 02

  So it was, it was an event for the podcast.

• 1:01:29Speaker 00

  Oh, sorry.

• 1:01:30Speaker 02

  It was in Melbourne, you had a night where, where it was like, you're on stage, Rick Davies interviewed you guys.

• 1:01:35Speaker 00

  Yes. And Rick is another one of my heroes because he was the second person after Penny that I heard, you know, speak the way that I think and feel. And, but so, yeah, Penny Allison and I were like, we're, we're gonna do an event. It's gotta be about OCD. So the reason why it was one of the best nights of my life is because I, I never ever thought that I would A, meet one person that could validate my experience. It, it's something that I can't really describe, like these, these beautiful people. It was like a universal language. So usually when you're someone who tells people that they have OCD, we're scanning, we're seeing your response and we can see in your eyes if you're kind of like, what?

• 1:02:20Speaker 00

  You're like, what? And rightfully so, right? But like, what is this person speaking about? We know that we've already lost you. And we're kind of like, of course I can't explain this because fucking how, like, how could I? It's not worth it. Can't be bothered. Whatever. In this room, it was like, no one had to say anything. The people in that room, like if anyone's listening, like you, you literally made one of the best memories for me. And, and it really then again, just showcased how important community is.

• 1:02:53Speaker 03

  You said something there that's fascinating and kind of remarkable. As someone who has spent most of their professional life fighting for a space and for communities for people to feel welcome. But you said then something like you didn't realize how special it was to have a community.

• 1:03:13Speaker 03

  What did that open up for you? I guess in, in reflecting on the work you've done for other people, as, as well as for the work you're doing now.

• 1:03:20Speaker 00

  I guess I've got a deeper understanding of how important feeling free to be yourself, yeah, unapologetically, like actually really being yourself and, and having people around you with the same experience. I, I guess through the, the work with the charity, I knew how important it was because I met so many people.

• 1:03:46Speaker 00

  Queer, non-binary, trans, bisexual, gay, lesbian, asexual, you know, like everyone under this beautiful umbrella. The very common story is like, oh yeah, I, you know, I swim with a

• 1:04:00Speaker 00

  all-gay swimming group and it's just changed my life because I've found my people. Like I could always see how important community was. However, yeah, I'd never personally experienced that until we, yeah, had that event on a Thursday night and I,

• 1:04:23Speaker 00

  I can't, I can't explain how powerful it, it really is.

• 1:04:29Speaker 03

  Hmm. I just see this like, maybe I'm creating a narrative where there isn't one, but I'm just seeing this like little Angie when you were like five, who had such a visceral reaction to people not being allowed to be themselves and being bullied. And then it took you thirty to thirty-nine years to experience it yourself?

• 1:04:49Speaker 00

  Yeah. I had, yeah.

• 1:04:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, I know. I don't know what the question is there.

• 1:04:53Speaker 00

  No, no, it's a, no, it's a, it's a very real observation of finally

• 1:05:01Speaker 00

  finding my people.

• 1:05:02Speaker 03

  Yeah. Hmm. When, when you said earlier, um, that when you tell people that you've got OCD is kind of scanning to see the response. Um, and I'm wondering, did I respond correctly? Probably wasn't a mo-, I knew before you walked in. Yeah, we had, we had some clues. Yeah. Um, but, uh, I think about when your brother told you, came out to you. I'm, I have no doubt that you responded in the most incredible way.

• 1:05:32Speaker 03

  What is, what is the right way to respond?

• 1:05:36Speaker 00

  I guess also when I was speaking about scanning, it was around people getting misdiagnosed because they can't be completely honest with their GP because the GP doesn't understand it. And the medical system is still quite behind with OCD. So if you are going to someone as a man and saying, I promise you, I don't want to do this, but I have these really scary thoughts that I'm going to stab my wife in her sleep.

• 1:06:09Speaker 03

  It could trigger the wrong reaction.

• 1:06:11Speaker 00

  You would, and but you would also, this is where it's so tricky. Like you would be right to be like, oh, that is a very alarming thing to, to hear. But all I would say is, and it's not, it's not getting anything perfect. And it's not asking the right questions or what have you. It is in your being, being a safe space. So I'm sure that there's been lots of secrets or things that people have told someone else being like, oh, I hope that this is how they react. And I think what is the most important is literally respecting the space in a, in a really, it's not about getting it all right.

• 1:06:53Speaker 00

  It's even acknowledging it going, look, I don't, I don't understand this, but I absolutely promise you, you can, you can speak to me about it. I'm not, I'm not judging. Um, I want to understand more. So what, what do you mean by that? Like I, I do think we all fear about getting those moments like, you know, bang on. And you know, it's got to be perfect else we might make someone else's memory a certain, you know, X, Y and Z. But I think people in the first place, if they are, especially, especially with OCD, if they are coming to you, it's because you're safe.

• 1:07:28Speaker 03

  Hmm. Yeah.

• 1:07:29Speaker 00

  You, you don't have to have all the right sayings. You just have to be there.

• 1:07:34Speaker 03

  Mm hmm. Great.

• 1:07:35Speaker 02

  Well, you've done an amazing job creating a community for so many people in Australia. I mean, obviously there's the, all the work you did inspired by your brother's story. But I think now to actually see, and I hear all, I see all the messages that, that Penny and you guys get through your DMs for the podcast, it's, it's amazing. So, um, thanks for sharing your story today, but also just for the work that you've done in this space is, um, it's very inspiring and you, I, you should feel so, um, you should feel so proud of yourself for everything you've done.

• 1:08:06Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 1:08:09Speaker 03

  Thanks, Angie.

• 1:08:11Speaker 02

  And if you, someone who is interested in OCD or maybe thinks potentially this is you, um, highly recommend it's not what you think the podcast, because that is where you share both the, like the horrors, but also the hilarities of, of what it's like living with OCD. Probably more horrors than hilarities, but there is definitely hilarities.

• 1:08:28Speaker 00

  There's some laughter.

• 1:08:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. Um, thanks, Angie.

• 1:08:31Speaker 00

  All right. Thank you.

• 1:08:34Speaker 03

  Stick around after this to find out what else is happening on The Imperfects.

• 1:08:39Speaker 03

  Well, I'm very excited to be joined by Bella. Bella, for those who don't know, she is the producer of A Little More Imperfects, our very special subscriber only show. And Bella, you've got a pretty exciting episode out this week.

• 1:08:50Speaker 04

  Yeah, well, I have the absolute pleasure to tell all of you that if you loved that episode with Angie Green, and if you love the episode with Penny Moodie, Hugh's wife, we have an extra bit in our A Little More Imperfects episode this week that's out now, where Hugh shares the most important lessons that he's learnt, living, loving and supporting someone with OCD.

• 1:09:12Speaker 02

  So validate the feeling, not the fear, looks like. If you imagine a mum has OCD and is plagued by the intrusive thought, what if I stab my child? Um, she loves a child desperately, which is exactly why the thought is there in the first place. It attacks the things you love the most. And she becomes terrified of being in the kitchen with her child if there's a knife nearby. So if you're supporting someone in that situation, your natural instinct is to reassure them and just say, you would never stab your child. You're a wonderful mum. Um, I promise you, you'd never do that. And that's what I did very early on with Penny, with her different obsessions, not understanding that actually makes the obsession grow stronger because their brain questions them again. They go, well, I'll go back to that person and ask for reassurance. So instead, validate what they're feeling. So in this case, it would be, um, you're not trying to resolve the OCD issue.

• 1:09:55Speaker 02

  It's just, I can see how terrifying that thought is for you. That must be incredibly distressing. I'm here with you.

• 1:10:02Speaker 03

  Roughly one in forty people have OCD. So you probably know someone, even if you're not aware of it. So I think it's such a useful episode and some really helpful tips from Hugh. And you can find them all at patreon.com/theimperfects. And if you're someone who feels you'd really benefit from hearing this episode, but can't afford it right now, please do get in touch through theimperfects.com.au and we'll help you out. And while you're there, you'll be able to see the names and faces of all the incredible people who help make this show. A show made on the lands of the Wurundjeri, Wurundjeri people, and we pay our respects to elders past and present. The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you're struggling, please

• 1:10:47Speaker 03

  see a healthcare professional or call Lifeline on 13 11 14.