Dr Emily - The Phenomenon That Is Imposter Syndrome

Do you live in fear of being found out as a fraud? That despite your years of competency, achievement and high performance someone will uncover the truth? Well, you’re in the right place. Our resident psychologist Dr Emily Musgrove is here to tell you that your imposter syndrome is nothing to be afraid of. In fact, it’s not even a syndrome. 💌 Get practical take-aways from this episode, and join 9,400+ others in our newsletter community - https://www.theimperfects.com.au/sign-up-to-our-newsletter/ To get a little bit meta, Dr Emily explains that knowing that you don’t know everything, is a good thing. Especially if you’re starting a new role, or trying something for the first time. HOWEVER, the long-term consequences of the imposter cycle such as perfectionism, overcompensation, burnout, or even avoidance and procrastination, may impact your willingness to say yes to new opportunities, such as going for that promotion or asking for support. In this episode, Dr Emily asks Hugh, Ryan and Josh to think about the balance of their competence and confidence, and provides them (and you!) with four practical strategies for combatting this pesky phenomenon. And then, a weird amount of chat about Vlad the Impaler. 0:00 – An Emisode! 2:41 – Adam Grant is not an imposter 5:11 – Origins of Imposter Syndrome 6:45 – ‘Syndrome’ is the wrong word 8:19 – It all comes back to belonging 10:39 – How common is imposter syndrome? 12:20 – Fear of being found out as a fraud 15:16 – The evolutionary psychology of belonging and self-doubt 16:35 – Is self-doubt actually healthy? 17:42 – Is your confidence a mask? 18:57 – The Dunning-Kruger Effect 23:15 – The more you know …. 25:12 – Competence vs confidence 26:29 – The Imposter Cycle: anxiety, perfectionism, luck 32:09 – Becoming your own favourite artist 35:55 – Avoidance, procrastination + self-fulfilling prophecies 38:29 – Long term consequences ft. Hugh’s anus 45:26 – Authenticity as the antidote 46:22 – Less growth, less promotions 48:52 – Strategy 1: write down your skills 49:53 – Strategy 2: name your shame 51:40 – Supporting a friend with imposter phenomenon 52:29 – Self-doubt in a new role is a good sign 57:12 – Strategy 3: mentor a near peer 1:00:38 – Strategy 4: celebrate your success 1:02:57 – Creating a good workplace culture 1:04:06 – Belonging is good for business 1:06:25 – Want more on belonging? Dr Em, thanks for joining us. 🫖Imperfects episodes mentioned on this episode Adam Grant - The Potential of Your Potential - https://bit.ly/4jc0DFM Dr Emily - We’re Longing for Belonging - https://bit.ly/4yElLJp Rana Hussain - Belonging for Connection - http://bit.ly/4odhGY8 Esther Perel - It’s Not Them, It’s You - https://bit.ly/4yxgljs 🎧Things to listen to The Curiosity Shop with Brene Brown and Adam Grant - https://bit.ly/4gT05mW 📖Things to read Hidden Potential, by Adam Grant - https://bit.ly/4AemQcv Hardwiring Happiness, by Rick Hanson - https://bit.ly/3T6IhM0 📺 Things to watch Mad Men - https://bit.ly/4cLB6zx 🩷To host your own Vulnerabilitea House, purchase here - theimperfects.com.au/shop 🩵To purchase our journal (or your novel) My Imperfect Life, click here - theimperfects.com.au/shop 🩵To join our subscriber community, A Little More Imperfects, follow this link - patreon.com/theimperfects 🩷 AND you can subscribe to A Little More Imperfects through Apple Podcasts http://apple.co/theimperfects The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you’re struggling, please see a healthcare professional, or call lifeline on 13 11 14. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  If 70% of people are experiencing this thing, it's not abnormal, it's actually normal.

• 0:08Speaker 01

  It's imposter syndrome with Dr Emily.

• 0:10Speaker 00

  This very strong feeling of being a phony or being a fraud, accompanied by a fear that I will be discovered and outed as such.

• 0:21Speaker 01

  What I've experienced is also the fear of being caught, that I think I'm good enough to play in this arena.

• 0:28Speaker 00

  Yes, and it sounds something like, who do they think they are?

• 0:32Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 0:33Speaker 00

  People that are prone to imposterism will often fail to recognise that their skill and their hard work resulted in this achievement or this outcome. They believe that it was just by chance that I made it through this.

• 0:49Speaker 01

  That resonates big time.

• 0:51Speaker 02

  For me, it was a very sore anus.

• 0:54Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 0:56Speaker 02

  Never felt pain like it, and I screamed.

• 1:00Speaker 01

  I can't wait till this comes back to imposter syndrome.

• 1:04Speaker 01

  Quick, is anyone here a doctor? Yes, her name is Dr Emily and she's a psychologist. Please welcome to the imperfect, our very own psychologist. She's back, she's back and psychologist-y as ever.

• 1:22Speaker 00

  Sure am.

• 1:23Speaker 01

  Everyone gets so excited when you're here, Em. Do you get excited when you're here?

• 1:26Speaker 00

  I really do, yes, I'm very excited.

• 1:28Speaker 01

  Really what I wanted to hear.

• 1:30Speaker 02

  Everyone's sitting at home with their pen and pad at the ready, just going, stop talking, just tell me what I need to learn, I'm gonna learn something.

• 1:37Speaker 01

  Give me the facts, change my life, quick.

• 1:41Speaker 01

  No pressure, let's get straight into it. Because this topic that we know that you're going to be talking about today is one that I certainly have dealt with a lot. What are you talking about today?

• 1:55Speaker 00

  I would really like to explore imposter syndrome.

• 1:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, geez, good.

• 2:01Speaker 00

  Yep, yeah.

• 2:02Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 2:02Speaker 00

  Now, I'm aware that you had in 2024, you had Adam Grant come on and talk about, you know, at that time, the book he had written, which is Hidden Potential. And he touched on imposter syndrome in a really eloquent way, of course, which he does. But I thought it would be really useful for us to actually kind of do a bit of a deep dive into this experience that is such a normal human experience to have. And then hopefully to look at some ways in which we can work with that.

• 2:31Speaker 01

  I mean, I already knew Adam Grant was a big deal. But then I found out recently that he's just started a podcast with Brené Brown.

• 2:37Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 2:37Speaker 01

  Really?

• 2:38Speaker 00

  And it's excellent.

• 2:38Speaker 01

  Is it?

• 2:39Speaker 00

  Can highly recommend.

• 2:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I bet, I mean, it's amazing. It's like Michael Jordan and Charles Barkley have started a podcast together. It's like, whoa, okay, that's gonna be great.

• 2:52Speaker 01

  Okay, now, do you have a clip?

• 2:53Speaker 00

  I do, it's actually from that episode. And I thought it was kind of a good platform to start off with, if that's okay.

• 2:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:59Speaker 03

  It's common, are imposter thoughts, which are the everyday pangs of, I wonder if other people are overestimating me? I wonder if I'm up to this challenge? Am I ready for this promotion or this role? Am I as good as other people think I am? The big question that comes out of this is what do you do with the feeling of being an imposter? And I've come to think it's a paradox, that on the one hand, you're saying, I don't know what I'm doing, I don't, I don't believe in myself. And on the other hand, you're saying, but I definitely know that I don't know what I'm doing. And I'm gonna trust my own opinion over the expectations and beliefs of other people. Well, can you, you can't have it both ways. Either you know what you're doing or you don't.

• 3:41Speaker 03

  Anyway, so when, when, when you confront that paradox, what I would say is, it's really tempting to trust your own judgment over other people's. Because you have more information about yourself than any other person will ever have about you. What you're forgetting is that other people see you more objectively. They're more neutral, they have more distance. And that gives them an accurate viewpoint that's, that's just invisible to you. And I think what that means is if multiple people believe in you, it's probably time to believe them. And that when you feel like an imposter, it doesn't necessarily mean that you're, that you're, you're being overestimated by other people. It often means that you're underestimating yourself. Because the people around you, especially if there's more than one,

• 4:25Speaker 03

  they have seen a capacity for growth in you that you cannot see yet. And you should trust that you have that potential and then see what you can do to try to live up to it. That, to me, is a healthy attitude toward imposter syndrome. And Basima goes a step further and she says, look, when you feel like an imposter, you should just say, other people think I'm, I could be pretty awesome. And now let me, let me go and try to make them proud.

• 4:51Speaker 01

  God, smart guy, isn't he? He speaks well, yeah, very well.

• 4:55Speaker 00

  Oh, there were just, you know, really kind of about 10 little nuggets in there about imposter syndrome in such a short space of time. And I think really what he's saying is, you know, in there is that there is actually great potential to arise from this imposter experience that we can have. But I wonder if it might be useful just to start off with even understanding the, you know, what the definition is, and also having a look at the origins. Because the origins quite interesting.

• 5:21Speaker 01

  Great, great.

• 5:22Speaker 00

  Great, yeah.

• 5:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, please, let's do it.

• 5:24Speaker 00

  So this particular phenomenon was, was first observed and named by psychologists Pauline Clance and Suzanne Imes in 1978. And it came through their observations specifically of high achieving women

• 5:43Speaker 00

  not being able to believe that they should be where they are, of feeling very doubtful about their performance and their capacities, despite evidence to the contrary. So there's kind of this key component here is that they were doubting themselves despite factual evidence to the contrary. And they termed it imposter phenomenon. And that's really important because it was seen as an experience rather than a syndrome. Okay, but across time, somehow or another,

• 6:23Speaker 00

  the culture has begun to weaponise this very normal experience to then create it as a syndrome. So in some ways, it's actually really important. Because when we think about a syndrome, it's the medicalisation and creating a pathology of a normal experience. And so when we see it as something that is pathologised, it often means that we internalise that experience to be our fault. Okay?

• 6:58Speaker 00

  So that there's something, if it's a pathology, if it's a syndrome, that means there's something wrong with me. And that the responsibility lies with me to overcome this experience. But what I need to really make very clear with the transition to it being a syndrome as opposed to a phenomenon is that in the very first instance, imposter feelings often arise from very real experiences of being told you don't belong here. So in 1978, when these high achieving women, you know, most often in academia and in the health industry, health professions, they were the minority.

• 7:40Speaker 00

  And they were experiencing overt messages that you don't belong here. That they, in actual fact, what a normal and healthy response to being told you do not belong here. And yet, we have pathologised that experience to then become our fault, rather than the culture that we might have been swimming in at the time. How is that making sense?

• 8:05Speaker 02

  You have started very strong today, madam. Very strong.

• 8:09Speaker 00

  Thank you, thank you.

• 8:10Speaker 01

  It kind of reminds me of, have you seen Mad Men, the show? The Peggy Olson kind of arc, her story is, is a really interesting one to think about in terms of this sort of thing, the feeling of like belonging and not being welcomed. And having that narrative in you, or trying to fight that narrative in your head that is a real thing, like especially in that time.

• 8:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a really great example. And because she was a minority. And we know from the belonging research, of course, that any time you're a minority, you are going to be much more vulnerable to experiencing, you know, a sense of uncertainty, of feeling worried, of feeling doubtful. And this then most obviously can translate into feeling doubtful about your abilities, about your skills, about your ability to complete or perform in this particular job. Um. So I just wanted to emphasise that there are these historical foundations here to this experience. And I guess, you know, for me, in the work that I do, and also more broadly,

• 9:10Speaker 00

  there is a call in some ways to um take away it being a pathologised experience and just to look at this as a normal human experience that we can all have. And what difference might it make if we don't view it as being a problem or something to fix or um or treat?

• 9:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:31Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 9:31Speaker 01

  Or also that the that the problem is is you.

• 9:35Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 9:36Speaker 01

  Because I guess it's got, I'm sure you're going to go into this, but it it seemed very complicated as far as the the what's going on in your mind and in your brain. And then, as you said, the overt signals that you get that you don't belong.

• 9:48Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 9:49Speaker 01

  That I'm sure uh people experience every day and people of different minorities would feel to a more extreme degree in certain scenarios.

• 9:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:58Speaker 01

  So calling it a syndrome kind of makes it like the problem, it kind of puts the problem on you rather than the people around you and the system.

• 10:05Speaker 00

  Exactly. And it minimises the accountability of the institutions and the cultures with within which we work.

• 10:11Speaker 01

  Hmm. Yep.

• 10:12Speaker 00

  Um. So I think that's important just to acknowledge at the start that um from my point of view, when working with this feeling, which is very real and can be very debilitating, that we also want to hold it as an understandable response, that it's okay that this arises.

• 10:29Speaker 01

  Um. It's it's so good and to state the obvious, so helpful to hear that. I've never really thought about it from that point of view. In in my experience of imposter syndrome, which is usually in a work environment, it always feels like the thing that I need to I need to get over. It's like I need to feel comfortable in this thing despite the

• 10:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:49Speaker 01

  environment around me.

• 10:50Speaker 00

  Yeah. The other thing I want to add in there is that there are, I mean, there are varying estimates as to how many people experience imposter, um the imposter phenomenon. Um, or we could call it imposterism. Some some researchers call it that. But there are varying estimates. Mostly they land around seventy percent.

• 11:07Speaker 01

  Seventy percent?

• 11:08Speaker 00

  Seventy percent of people will experience imposter, um the imposter phenomenon at some point in time. Now, if you think about um like uh the normal bell curve and how we identify pathology, it's usually when an experience is abnormal. But if seventy percent of people are experiencing this thing, it's not abnormal. It's actually normal.

• 11:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, I mean, like seventy percent is lower than I would have guessed, actually.

• 11:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:36Speaker 01

  But maybe that's from my own experience. But yeah.

• 11:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:39Speaker 02

  And it's rebrand.

• 11:40Speaker 00

  It needs a rebrand. And it's helpful for a number of reasons. Um. I think it can invite um obviously a a normalising experience. So I'm not alone in this. It's a really normal thing. Other people will have had this too. That's so helpful. Um. It's validating. Um. And I think it takes off this kind of internalised blame that we will hold. But I will come to, I will come to that as well.

• 12:04Speaker 02

  I've got the bloody imposter normals.

• 12:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:08Speaker 02

  You can call it the normals.

• 12:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, good rebrand.

• 12:10Speaker 02

  The normals.

• 12:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, got the got the bloody normals.

• 12:14Speaker 01

  But what is normal?

• 12:18Speaker 02

  That's, yeah, that might, yeah, that could follow. But I think if we just called imposter normals.

• 12:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:23Speaker 02

  You know, just normals.

• 12:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. I'm gonna stick with them for now.

• 12:28Speaker 02

  I'll do the marketing stuff.

• 12:32Speaker 00

  So I guess if we kind of then jump into what is uh the imposter phenomenon or what is imposterism, and at its heart, it's obviously doubting um your competencies. Um. And this very strong, often pervasive feeling of being a phony or being a fraud.

• 12:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:51Speaker 00

  Accompanied by a a fear that I will be discovered and outed as such.

• 12:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. What I've experienced is also the fear of being caught, that I think I'm good enough to play in this arena.

• 13:05Speaker 00

  Yes. There's a really common thought that comes with that. And it sounds something like, who do they think they are?

• 13:12Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly that.

• 13:14Speaker 00

  They think they can do this job? What a joke.

• 13:16Speaker 01

  Can I add another phrase that someone said? Stay in your lane.

• 13:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 13:21Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 13:21Speaker 00

  And that's, you've heard that before?

• 13:23Speaker 01

  Not, not, not actually.

• 13:24Speaker 00

  The internal dialogue is.

• 13:25Speaker 01

  But I know that's what people do say about like the the the example that most people would know is like if an actor starts a singing career.

• 13:32Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 13:33Speaker 01

  And it's like, stay in your line. You don't need to, you know, and then it's the rejection of trying something new that they're not known for.

• 13:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. So you can see even in that how restricting that feeling can become.

• 13:47Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 13:47Speaker 00

  If there are these internal messages, who do they think they are? Stay in your lane. Um, focus on what you can do. You can even feel like in a in a bodily sense, this sense of contraction, um, and even a shrinking feeling, which is very kind of common.

• 14:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I remember when I, my first job uh out of uni was in advertising and advertising splits people up into suits or creatives. And you're like one or the other. I was put in the suits category.

• 14:15Speaker 02

  Really?

• 14:16Speaker 01

  And yeah, and I was terrible at it.

• 14:19Speaker 02

  That's surprising.

• 14:20Speaker 01

  But every now and then, as part of that job, you kind of do have to do something a little bit creative. And it was always, there was so much judgment from the creative path of like, just leave it to us. You you.

• 14:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:32Speaker 01

  Don't, don't even try. You're not supposed to be here. And I think it's, I think it's had a lasting impact on me.

• 14:38Speaker 00

  Hmm. And I think that that's an important point too, that is that um often our experiences of imposterism um are most often informed by our early experiences. And so an experience like that, where there may have been genuinely overt messages that say, stay in your lane, what are you doing here?

• 14:55Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 14:55Speaker 00

  You know, of course, you bring that with you into your next, like into the next thing that you do.

• 14:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:00Speaker 00

  Um. And we can think about this if we go back much, much earlier. If you have had experiences as a kid um that have said things like, um, you're not good enough for this, um, you don't belong here, um, any kind of kind of critical tone voice in there, that message becomes really internalised.

• 15:23Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 15:23Speaker 00

  Um. And again, we carry that with us into adulthood.

• 15:27Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 15:28Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 15:28Speaker 01

  Yep. Hi, it's Ryan from The Imperfects. And I'm reaching out to you now because we need your help, gosh darn it. What, where, why do we need? Sorry, no, we're, I'm just uh making a plea to the listeners and viewers to ask them to subscribe to the show in whichever way they see fit, because it really helps. The more subscribers, the better we can make this show. Am I right?

• 15:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I don't think we need to. I think we could just ask them politely.

• 15:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, but if I use the emotional music. I think the music's a bit much. Is it?

• 15:57Speaker 02

  Who's playing that music?

• 15:58Speaker 01

  It doesn't matter who's playing the music. The important thing is we're pulling at the heartstrings and asking them to do us a solid. Could we not just ask, like, just ask them straight? Like, oh, it'd really help us if you guys subscribed, because we would be able to make more of the show and make the show better. Hmm. Oh, and not use emotional manipulation? Yeah.

• 16:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, I reckon.

• 16:16Speaker 01

  Well, you can give it a go, but I doubt it'll work. How does this intersect with like a a feeling of belonging?

• 16:22Speaker 00

  Hmm. Almost implicitly. They're they're intimately connected. And if we look at, if we kind of zoom back, and I and I always reference this in usually all of the episodes, is that we need to also have an understanding from an evolutionary point of view, why we would be prone to having this experience.

• 16:38Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 16:38Speaker 00

  Um. And because, you know, fundamentally, it is linked to our um our yearning and our need to belong. This being um absolutely crucial for our survival as um as cave people, for example. So if we think about what happens in imposterism is that it's in essence like a checking. It's a checking of um of my performance. Am I doing enough? Am I doing enough to stay connected to this group? Um. Am I doing enough to feel like I am valued for being here? Um, that I won't be ostracised? Because at, you know, at the bottom of the fear of imposterism is that I will be found out and I will be cast out.

• 17:22Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 17:23Speaker 00

  So you can hear in that even like the evolutionary undertones. Um. And so we could also then look at maybe there actually is something healthy and adaptive about experiencing the doubt.

• 17:37Speaker 01

  Hmm. Yeah. What do you mean, experiencing the doubt?

• 17:40Speaker 00

  Okay. So I'll give you an example personally, and this is really um, this is really interesting in the therapy world in particular. Um. And that is that if the moment that I sit in my office with a client or or even here, for example, and believe that I know how to do it all, we have a big problem.

• 18:00Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 18:01Speaker 00

  Hmm. The state of feeling a little bit doubtful, like I don't know, I don't know this part enough, I I'm not entirely sure, or um I could learn more here, that's actually really helpful, because it prompts more learning. It prompts me to go and um gain, for example, in the ther- in the therapy context, it will prompt me to go and gain supervision, to enhance my skills. But the second that I am sitting there from a state of complete expert, there is no space in there for for curiosity. There's no space for um metacognition. So being able to contemplate where I may have gone wrong.

• 18:43Speaker 01

  Hmm. So in a situation where there's a person who, like the the archetype of someone who, you know, always wants to be right, never wants to be wrong, um, wants to be seen to know everything, is that like a protection against like not, like the fear of not belonging? Is there an imposter, imposter phenomenon in there where they're like, I don't want to be found out as not belonging or not being smart enough to be here. So I'm just going to never admit fault or never admit um any flaws or?

• 19:21Speaker 00

  I mean, it absolutely can be that. You know, this kind of protection against vulnerability. Um. And that looks and feels like overt confidence, sometimes even arrogance.

• 19:30Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 19:31Speaker 00

  Um. So it might be protecting against the the, you know, long-held wounds, for example, of feeling a sense of inadequacy, um, of not feeling good enough. So we can have different modes of responding to that core wound there. And that might be um like a narcissistic or entitled um appearance, for example.

• 19:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:51Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 19:52Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 19:52Speaker 00

  The opposite of imposterism or imposter syndrome in that context is what's called the Dunning Kruger effect.

• 19:59Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 19:59Speaker 02

  I knew Sonia was doing more than Dancing with the Stars.

• 20:05Speaker 00

  So this really is, is a sense of having a greater amount of confidence than your actual competence. So confidence that I know this is vastly distinct from your actual levels of competence.

• 20:26Speaker 04

  Yeah. So is, is this just to clarify, so is this people who claim to know the answer even though they clearly don't?

• 20:32Speaker 00

  Yes, yeah. And the interesting thing about that is that the people that are super confident in their abilities and actually lack the skills to do the job, for example, actually lack the capacity to know that they don't have the skills to do the job.

• 20:51Speaker 04

  Oh, wow.

• 20:52Speaker 00

  Right, okay. And I'm going to give you an example. I, I don't have the names of the researchers off the top of my head, but this, this particular phenomenon has garnered quite a lot of attention. It's very relevant in the current political world. I will just leave that there. But in the 1990s.

• 21:14Speaker 04

  God, you're getting so many names there. There's one, there's one big orange one, but yeah.

• 21:19Speaker 00

  Exactly. So I think if you could think about this is the idea that you don't know what you don't know. And this was partly informed, or the rise of this study around this was partly informed by the observation of a man, I think I've told you this story before, but I'm going to tell it again, of a man in America in Pittsburgh who was arrested for robbing two banks in broad daylight.

• 21:46Speaker 00

  And when he was arrested, he was totally baffled as to how they recognized him, like how they knew that he was the robber. Because, you know, to the police, he had walked in with no mask on, completely not disguised in any, in any way, shape or form.

• 22:07Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 22:07Speaker 00

  And so he was really baffled, like this, this guy was really baffled and people were baffled that he was baffled. And what they discovered was that he had believed that if he rubbed lemon juice on his face, that that would make him invisible. Because sometimes you can use lemon juice to erase ink.

• 22:27Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 22:28Speaker 00

  And so he believed that if I rub it on my face, then now I become invisible. So he could walk in with a freedom to rob the banks. And that's an example of Dunning Kruger. You don't know what you don't know and you lack the critical skills to be able to evaluate it.

• 22:48Speaker 04

  God, that's unbelievable, isn't it?

• 22:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. So that's the absolute opposite.

• 22:54Speaker 04

  That's extreme version, I imagine, of Dunning Kruger.

• 22:58Speaker 00

  It is. But we, we are all, again, vulnerable to Dunning Kruger because we can't be, we can't be experiencing expertise across all areas.

• 23:09Speaker 04

  So a, a more day to day example of that, would, would it be someone giving very firm opinions on a, a world issue? Even though they have no knowledge of the details.

• 23:23Speaker 00

  And saying it with great confidence.

• 23:25Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 23:25Speaker 00

  So that's the really important key part in that is that the confidence is way higher than the actual competence.

• 23:32Speaker 04

  Which is really, I mean, it's really common, we all know people who do that. But what's kind of bizarre is to know that they potentially don't know that they don't know.

• 23:40Speaker 00

  They don't know.

• 23:41Speaker 04

  They actually think they have all the information.

• 23:43Speaker 00

  Yeah. And I think, you know, we can, we can have the, have that experience of Dunning Kruger and then recognize like, oh, I really didn't know. And so an example that comes to mind for me would be like making birthday cakes for the kids. And you see a picture and you're like, oh yeah, I can do that. And then you're like, you're like three hours into this birthday cake and it's looking absolutely nothing like the picture. That's an example there of an overestimation of my abilities and a lack of knowledge about the skill that's required to do it.

• 24:17Speaker 04

  That's so interesting. So I don't know if this is Dunning Kruger or this is like my sort of pop psychology, like memes that I've seen, that I've taken. So I don't know if this is the correct reference point, but.

• 24:29Speaker 02

  I haven't seen all the memes yet, so no spoilers.

• 24:34Speaker 04

  But one of the things I find with life in general and getting older is that like, I, I think if I look back at my entire freelancing career, I look at myself and think, God, you tried to cover up for how little you knew with a sense of like, I know the answer's here, when I really didn't know what I was doing and I was trying to make it up. And then the older I get, the more I feel like I don't know things.

• 24:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:57Speaker 04

  Like I am definitely acquiring knowledge, but I move through life. And most of the time, the weird thing about it for me is that it's actually quite freeing to be admitting that I don't know stuff more and more and more.

• 25:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:08Speaker 04

  But then also I, I have this weird kind of like dual thing going on of like, I know less and less. Am I just a big fraud? Have I always been a big fraud and a big fake? Or am I just getting more realistic as to the reality of how little I know about the world?

• 25:25Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, I think in some ways it's, you know, it is this notion that the more you know, the more you realize you don't know. And that's okay. In fact, that, that can invite, it can invite more curiosity. It can invite a letting go of the pressure to know everything. It can be, I think, a very healthy and adaptive response. But I wonder if we kind of come back to the, so this experience of feeling like this imposter. I just want to mention that there are obviously, you know, that there's a spectrum of this experience and also a very opposite experience where it kind of highlights the fact that over an imposterism,

• 26:04Speaker 00

  we actually objectively usually have competency and we actually usually have a bank of evidence to say that you can perform at this job, but our confidence doesn't match it. So we've got a mismatch in our belief with our actual competencies.

• 26:23Speaker 02

  Yeah. I, I think about teaching. So my first year as a teacher and anyone's first year as a teacher, you walk into a classroom, you have your own class for the first time. As a 23, 24 year old, I definitely pretended I knew way more than I did and pretended I was always fine and never really accepted help or support from other teachers.

• 26:44Speaker 02

  Always wanted to look like I knew exactly what I was doing. But I look back and I, and that was absolutely imposter syndrome. But I look back and I just wish so much I had really leant into the fact that I've never done this before. I mean, like, I wish I'd said that. I wish I'd said I don't know all the time. I wish I'd said, um, I don't know, I've never done this before, it was the first time I ever tried it. Then the imposter syndrome wouldn't be there because I would be actually saying, it would, but like my experience would be what people are saying is what I was feeling. Because the amount of times someone would say, oh, are you comfortable to do this and this? And my answer should have been, I've never done it before, I've no idea. We'll find out, I'll have a go, but I'm like, I may not do it very well because this is my first. Everyone knows, all the parents know it's your first time as a teacher, the whole school knows

• 27:26Speaker 02

  it's your first time as a teacher, yet you're trying to pretend that you're on top of everything. You can't be, like, it's impossible.

• 27:31Speaker 00

  No, you can't be. And this is such an example too of how vulnerable new grads are. Or anyone that's entering a new job or new role, that it's actually very understandable and a normal response to new situations with new tasks and new demands. And so, yeah, I want to come to like how we could work with that differently. And I want to, before we get there, just acknowledge the actual experience of imposterism and then also the costs of that too, when it becomes really pervasive. So a lot of the research has documented that there is really a cycle of imposterism.

• 28:14Speaker 00

  And usually it starts with there being a cue to a new task. So you're given this new task or it could be a new job, for example. And what happens then is we get a very quick increase in feelings of anxiety and discomfort. I don't know if I can do this. I'm going to be found out, I don't belong here. So lots of anxious, worried thoughts that show up. And in response to that, we often get one of two behavioural reactions or coping modes. The probably the most common is over preparation and perfectionistic, unrelenting standard.

• 28:56Speaker 02

  I was not guilty of that as a teacher.

• 29:02Speaker 00

  Well, maybe it could be the other one, which is avoidance and procrastination.

• 29:05Speaker 01

  That feels more familiar to me.

• 29:09Speaker 00

  Yeah. So when, when we think about someone that is very, very fearful of being discovered as a fraud, that in order to, to cope with that fear, they will become, they will become over preparing. So I'm definitely prone to that. And so, you know, people will go and like go above and beyond of like doing all the preparation, doing lots of practicing, they're up late night, you know, rehearsing, et cetera, et cetera. And you can feel like even as I'm saying that, you can feel this kind of pressure here to perform. So for those people, and it might be true that they're, you know, going to do extra professional development, they're doing all like the online stuff. So they're really kind of going overboard in some ways, like really kind of

• 29:54Speaker 00

  overcompensating for this fear that's here. And so then when the task arrives or when they've completed the task and they complete it successfully, yes, there's a feeling of relief. Phew, I've avoided, I've avoided the dis- Exactly. And I've like, thank God I've got through this experience. But what is so key in this is that there at that point is a failure to attribute the success to your hard work and to your skill, but to luck.

• 30:26Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 30:27Speaker 00

  So people that are prone to imposterism will often fail to recognize that their skill and their hard work resulted in this achievement or this outcome. Instead, they believe that it was just by chance that I made it through this.

• 30:45Speaker 01

  That resonates big time.

• 30:48Speaker 00

  Yeah. What do you notice with that?

• 30:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've often thought that. I've often thought that I only, only got, you know, yeah, the podcast is going well, but it's because, you know, Hugh, you know, Hugh had the idea to do it and I'm sort of just along for the ride and, and don't, you know, I just sort of dismiss, you know, the, everything else I've done to get to a point where Hugh wanted to do a podcast with me or whatever, you know, all those things. I don't think about those things. I more think like, oh God, this is lucky that I'm, you know, hitched to that train and dismiss all the actual work I've actually done to do a good job or make the thing good, you know, I'm much, I'm much quicker to jump to like, I'm, I'm lucky that I was

• 31:33Speaker 01

  able to get along on that thing. Yeah.

• 31:37Speaker 00

  I think that that will speak to so many people's experience, this sense of, you know, when the job is done or when that particular task is done, there's like a phew of relief. But the tricky thing is that when you get through that particular milestone, task, request, demand, whatever it might be, and you've made it, we then get an increased pressure to keep performing to that degree.

• 32:05Speaker 00

  And an increased fear that now I will be discovered.

• 32:09Speaker 01

  If I don't put in all that effort every single time.

• 32:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'll be found out.

• 32:13Speaker 00

  I will be found out at some point in time. So there's always this sense of time that at some point in time, it's going to come out and it's likely it's going to come out soon. So we get stuck in this really tricky pervasive cycle of fear, over preparation, achievement, and then denial of, of my efforts and my skill level. And then a further pressure to continue to perform to that degree.

• 32:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:47Speaker 00

  And so you can imagine when you get stuck in that cycle, when you're not able to really internalize, this is really important, when you're unable to internalize your own experience of success and your own levels of competence and skill, and you attribute it to luck, we just get caught up in a very overwhelming and very debilitating cycle.

• 33:11Speaker 01

  Just yesterday, maybe the day before, I think it was, where I've been kind of trying to like, you know, I've been doing a lot of like journaling recently, a lot of, lot of writing and a lot of this is coming up for me and like when I'm writing about it. And some people will know that, I've talked about it, but some people will know that last year I did my first like art exhibition. So that was a huge imposterism, imposter phenomenon moment for me because it's the fear of not being accepted by the art world or whoever, you know, people will think it's weird or who do you think you are? Putting yourself out there, yeah. And what do you mean by that?

• 33:53Speaker 01

  So, so, yeah, so that was a real thing. And, and, and like I've always done, I'm judging the success of it based on the feedback. Like, do people like it? So what I thought yesterday is like, maybe from now on, the goal is I want to become my favorite artist.

• 34:13Speaker 01

  So it's like, I want to become, I want to like make things that I love so much. And it kind of seems obvious when you say it like that, but it's actually a huge shift because just naturally my whole life, I'm always looking to other people for the validation that my, the thing that I've done is good. And I'll make something, look to someone that I trust or even like mum and dad who's like from such a young age, it's like, I want them to like what I'm doing. And if they don't like it, I'm like, oh, okay. It's, it wasn't broad enough or it wasn't accessible enough or constantly changing and taking all these bits of information and data

• 34:53Speaker 01

  that are often contradictory because what this person likes and this person likes generally could be very, very different things. And maybe even very different to things that I like.

• 35:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:03Speaker 01

  So it's like the only, why not just be my favorite artist? Cause there's then that's, I'll be so excited.

• 35:12Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, I mean, what do you notice when you step into that idea of me being my favorite?

• 35:18Speaker 01

  It's, it's, it's very relieving because I feel like the pressure's still on, but I feel like in a healthy way. Like there's still pressure, self-imposed pressure, I guess, to make work that I'm proud of. And to do, do it in a way that I'm proud of and to always just be asking myself, do you love this? And I'm the only judge that matters in, in this particular sort of situation. And if, and if I can genuinely, honestly say, yes, I love that, then mission accomplished.

• 35:50Speaker 00

  That's great. And I think that's a really, um, really nice kind of like invitation here to really think about, you know, who it's for, you know, why, why are we doing this? Why are we doing this job? And in fact, if we look at the, the emergence of these imposter feelings, the information that that tells us is that I care really deeply about doing this well. And that speaks to something that's valuable to me, something that is important, particularly with jobs that you may have, you know, worked really hard to get, for example. The fact that this feeling is here actually tells me that I care.

• 36:32Speaker 00

  And there's nothing wrong with that. It's what we do with that then that of, you know, most often counts.

• 36:40Speaker 00

  I mentioned that obviously perfectionistic and unkind of overcompensatory behaviours often show up in response to feeling like an imposter. We can also often move in the opposite direction, which is avoidance and procrastination. That's not an uncommon response to this feeling.

• 36:57Speaker 01

  I've got an example, if you want an example. I've done this my whole life, but I think to close the loop on the thing I mentioned earlier about advertising. The, the way you go from being a suit or one of the ways is there's a thing called award school, which is like the school for advertising creatives. And I was like, that's what I'm going to do that. Then I'll be accepted because I'll get into award school. I'll do well. I'll be accepted as a creative person. I can move into that area. And I, I waited till like three days before the thing was due, like pushing it away, didn't want to do it. And then I finally did it and I showed it to someone who I like respected. And they were like, it's, it's pretty good. When, when's it due? And I'm like, oh, in two days. And he's like,

• 37:39Speaker 01

  people usually spend about six months preparing for award school and trying to get in like, we'll do our best, but like, and I, and I look back then, that's exactly what I was doing. And then when I didn't get in, it was confirmation that you don't belong.

• 37:53Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 37:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:55Speaker 00

  Exactly. And so it works in the opposite ways that the attribution there of an experience of failure is that I'm not good enough, rather than the attribution being that I didn't put the work in.

• 38:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it speaks to your core. It's like, it's who I am rather than the work that I do.

• 38:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. But we can also look at the function of avoidance there. So if there's something, a job that's really important to you, a task that's required, and you know, it's going to bring with it an idea or a yearning to do it perfectly or to do it super well. There's an immense amount of pressure that comes with that, right? And that pressure feels very overwhelming. And the thought of sitting down to create this thing that is a masterpiece or that it is brilliant or that is highly regarded, that feeling is so aversive that we will put it off. I don't want, I don't want to turn towards this feeling

• 38:51Speaker 00

  because it's so deeply uncomfortable. I get exposed to my own, you know, fears of failure there. So I just don't do it. But we can obviously see how self-perpetuating that cycle becomes. Now I have less time, I have more internal judgment. There's more of a threat response that's here and I actually can't produce at that point in time quite potentially the, the quality of the work that I wanted to, you know, at the start.

• 39:18Speaker 00

  So, you know, whether it's overcompensation or avoidance, we can see that there are some potentially really detrimental outcomes there for us. And particularly for our sense of worth, sense of self-worth.

• 39:31Speaker 01

  The cost interests me, like the, the costs of living with imposter syndrome for a long-term point of view, physical, mental, there's a lot, isn't there?

• 39:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, there's a huge amount. And, you know, burnout is one of them, absolutely.

• 39:48Speaker 01

  For me, as a, it was a very sore anus.

• 39:52Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 39:54Speaker 01

  There he is.

• 39:54Speaker 00

  Not on my list.

• 39:57Speaker 00

  It was not on my list of costs, I tell you.

• 40:01Speaker 02

  There'll be a handful of people, a lot of people listening going, yes.

• 40:05Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 40:06Speaker 02

  Definitely.

• 40:06Speaker 00

  Say more.

• 40:08Speaker 02

  You tell if I'm wrong, but my first year as a teacher, I remember waking up in my morning and I felt like my partner at the time had shoved a cricket stump up my bottom. I have never felt pain like it. I just, and I screamed and woke up and she said, what's happening? And I was obvious, obviously she wasn't doing that to me. And I said, I have no idea. And then the pain was gone. And what the hell was that? And then nothing. And then about three days later, I was standing up teaching maths to my class. And I thought someone had stabbed me in the bottom with scissors. And I dropped to my knees and screamed in front of like all the kids.

• 40:51Speaker 02

  I had tears in my face, in my eyes. And I had to like go into the resources room and then it was gone. And then as my mind went to the worst spots, I was like, oh God, this is bad. I've got something very bad here. But anyway, I ended up seeing the doctor and she said, oh yeah, you have very common with medical students, law students, and one primary school teacher, obviously, it's called proctolactophugax. It's where every, out of stress, every single muscle in your anus. Why is that word so funny? Every.

• 41:21Speaker 01

  I can't wait till this comes back to imposter syndrome.

• 41:25Speaker 01

  Can't wait to see how you bring this back.

• 41:27Speaker 02

  Oh no, it doesn't. No, it does. Every single muscle there spasms. And she's, and the doctor said, it is like, that is just stress. And when I think, when I actually think more about it, it wasn't so much stress. It was just, I was desperately trying to pretend that I was like, I knew what I was doing and I was not like, I was comfortable. I'm here, I belong here. And I didn't. And I saw, I was, I was like, if you've just started teaching, you don't belong in a classroom, like, as in you do, but you have no evidence in your brain that you actually belong there. And so that I think it was like, and it's probably the same with when she said medical students and law students going into a stressful

• 42:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:06Speaker 02

  profession and pretending that you know what's going on. When 95% of the time you have no idea what's really going on. And I wonder if that's what led to.

• 42:13Speaker 01

  I wonder.

• 42:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:16Speaker 01

  I think we're all wondering.

• 42:18Speaker 02

  Well, I.

• 42:22Speaker 01

  And I just, I just wonder whether or not it's connected to the episode that we're doing tonight.

• 42:32Speaker 04

  Before I have answers, I feel like I have to, this is not dissimilar to an episode years ago when Ryan, you, you mentioned that you take hair pills when Hugh said he'd take hair pills. I feel like I have to admit that I have that too.

• 42:45Speaker 00

  Really?

• 42:46Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 42:49Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 42:49Speaker 04

  I've had it throughout my life.

• 42:51Speaker 02

  There you go.

• 42:51Speaker 04

  Yeah, at moments of stress. Um, yeah.

• 42:55Speaker 02

  Have you ever known pain like it?

• 42:57Speaker 04

  It's pretty, it, yeah, to me, I get.

• 43:03Speaker 04

  I get images, I like thought, do you know like Vlad the Impaler? Have you ever heard that?

• 43:07Speaker 01

  I know.

• 43:07Speaker 04

  Historical reference?

• 43:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:09Speaker 04

  He's a guy, I think he was a, someone in Europe who killed people by putting them on a spike.

• 43:14Speaker 02

  Oh, that's what it feels like. That's better.

• 43:16Speaker 04

  Fall slowly on the spike.

• 43:18Speaker 02

  That's what it feels like.

• 43:18Speaker 04

  That's to me, what it feels like.

• 43:20Speaker 02

  Getting floated.

• 43:21Speaker 01

  Sorry, Em, if we're taking stuff you're about to go into.

• 43:29Speaker 02

  Look at it, no, it's, oh yeah, it is. It's Vlad's next.

• 43:32Speaker 01

  Vlad the Impaler's next up.

• 43:33Speaker 02

  Sorry, sorry.

• 43:34Speaker 01

  It ruined your flow.

• 43:36Speaker 04

  Yeah. So no, I'm, I know what you mean. And I've experienced it throughout my life.

• 43:40Speaker 02

  And I wrote about him in my book and I've had a lot of people come up to me and go, just, I, I, I had no idea what's happening to me. I just ignored it because it was so awful. And I was like, I can't, I'm too embarrassed to even talk about this.

• 43:50Speaker 04

  But I haven't felt it in years. And I haven't felt imposter syndrome in years.

• 43:53Speaker 02

  Did you have it, did you have it when you were working advertising?

• 43:56Speaker 04

  I reckon I've had it intermittently. I can't pin it, pinpoint it to specific times, but I've had it since my twenties. Yeah, probably since, since full-time employment, every now and then.

• 44:10Speaker 02

  Hugh just did an arm action as if it's to say, case closed.

• 44:15Speaker 02

  What more of it instead of me?

• 44:17Speaker 04

  But I have also experienced a lot of other emotions apart from imposterism over that time. So I couldn't.

• 44:23Speaker 01

  Oh, worth looking into though.

• 44:24Speaker 04

  But I didn't want you to be alone in that statement.

• 44:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:26Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 44:26Speaker 00

  You're not alone.

• 44:28Speaker 01

  Probably love.

• 44:29Speaker 00

  No, like actually, to be honest, in all seriousness.

• 44:33Speaker 01

  Vlad the Impaler.

• 44:37Speaker 00

  If we think about what's happening physiologically, that we're getting activation of the stress and the threat response. So we are going to experience physiological symptoms that indicate and tell us we are very stressed and overwhelmed.

• 44:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, case is closed.

• 44:53Speaker 00

  Yeah. And if you think about it, I don't want to go too much into the detail here, but contraction of muscles is a response to threat.

• 45:00Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 45:02Speaker 00

  So like things like, I, I don't have any information about your conditions, but.

• 45:09Speaker 02

  Do you have any notes on cricket stump?

• 45:12Speaker 00

  But things like, um, when we're feeling really stressed, you will often get really tight neck and shoulders. And that's because your, your muscles are actually contracting in response to the overwhelm. So we start to lift our shoulders, our neck gets tighter, we hunch over. It's a very natural, normal response to a perception of threat. It's there with a good evolutionary purpose and function. But it's an example that our body and our minds are intricately intimately linked. They're not occurring separately. Um, when we're experiencing stress, our body is experiencing it. And so I think that's a good kind of practice in there, just to be able to tune into what are your signs? That you're really struggling with like imposterism, for example.

• 45:56Speaker 00

  How frequently are you having colds and flu? How frequently are you needing to take sick leave? I mean, they're all good indicators, like that something needs to be addressed here.

• 46:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay. Hey Hugh and Josh.

• 46:07Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 46:08Speaker 01

  And Em.

• 46:09Speaker 02

  What?

• 46:09Speaker 01

  This is different because Dr. Emily is here for a bit of an announcement. An announcement.

• 46:17Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 46:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. What have you got? What's happening?

• 46:20Speaker 00

  I have some exciting news to share. If you've been feeling stuck or overwhelmed.

• 46:24Speaker 01

  Tick, tick.

• 46:25Speaker 00

  Or really craving some time to yourself to reconnect. I have just partnered with the Tasmanian Walking Company to create, well.

• 46:36Speaker 00

  They lead amazing, incredible, uh, walking retreats.

• 46:40Speaker 01

  Like out, like not on treadmills, obviously.

• 46:42Speaker 00

  Exactly. Like in the real world, in nature.

• 46:45Speaker 01

  Beautiful.

• 46:45Speaker 00

  And we have created in combination the unstuck walk, which is an intimate five day retreat on Tasmania's spectacular Three Capes track.

• 46:55Speaker 01

  Oh my God, that will be good.

• 46:58Speaker 00

  I'm so super excited. So I'm going, I'm leading the retreat along with the Tasmanian Walking Company guides.

• 47:05Speaker 04

  Have you got your jodhpurs ready?

• 47:07Speaker 00

  Jodhpurs. I'm not on horse.

• 47:10Speaker 04

  Okay. Oh, I thought jodhpurs were, no, I was thinking something else.

• 47:13Speaker 02

  We did say this would be a minute long.

• 47:17Speaker 00

  So just, just so you're aware, we'll be combining lots of the walking, obviously with some reflection, with mindfulness and some really very practical psychological tools, um, which have really been inspired by my book, Unstuck.

• 47:30Speaker 01

  Well, Em, I hope you've got 10,000 tickets available because you're about to be bombarded.

• 47:35Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, this is the, the clincher is that if you are interested, the places are very limited. There are only 12 guests on each walk.

• 47:42Speaker 02

  It's just sold out.

• 47:42Speaker 01

  It just sold out.

• 47:45Speaker 00

  So there are two departure dates in June and July next year. But if you'd like to be the first to know, please add your name to the waitlist, um, which you can find on the Tasmanian Walking Company's limited edition walk website page, or you can just go to my Instagram account and click on the link.

• 48:00Speaker 01

  Beautiful. What's your Instagram? Just for everyone?

• 48:01Speaker 00

  Uh, Dr. Emily Musgrove.

• 48:03Speaker 01

  Great. At Instagram.com.

• 48:06Speaker 00

  Yeah. I'm so thrilled and so excited to get to do this. So I hope that, you know, if you're interested, join me.

• 48:10Speaker 01

  The three of us would come, but I don't think we should take up three of the spots. It seems unfair.

• 48:20Speaker 04

  One of the things I find amazing about imposterism, or I think the feeling of when you're in a group working on something and someone else says that they don't know, or like that I don't know what to do here. And that we don't know.

• 48:34Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 48:34Speaker 04

  It's just the best feeling in the world. And I've kind of wish, when I've seen other people do it, I kind of want to be that person to say that to people.

• 48:43Speaker 01

  To be the first one to kind of put your hand up and say like, I don't know what to do here.

• 48:46Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. Or we've, we don't know, we've, I've never done it before. We've never done it before. Let's see. Let's find out. Like that kind of thing. Cause I feel like it's such a, it's similar to when Esther Perel was on and we, she was talking about apologising and she's saying the person that apologises first has the power. Kind of feel like the person who says, I don't know first has the power.

• 49:06Speaker 01

  Oh, that's cool.

• 49:07Speaker 00

  Yeah. And, and what is so interesting about what you're saying there is that in some ways the antidote to imposterism is authenticity.

• 49:15Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 49:16Speaker 02

  Oh yeah. Okay.

• 49:17Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's great.

• 49:18Speaker 00

  Yeah. That I can freely be myself and show up as myself.

• 49:21Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 49:22Speaker 00

  Because in imposterism, there's a fear of being discovered for who I am and not worthy of being here.

• 49:29Speaker 01

  It's just, it's just being truthful in the moment really, isn't it? Just being truthful about where you're at and what you know, what you don't know. It's so much easier.

• 49:38Speaker 00

  So we'll, we'll get to a little bit more about how we can work with this feeling. I do just want to mention a couple of other costs that come with when this feeling really takes hold. Um, and we can get really pushed around by those internal, um, kind of negative thoughts, predictions and worries. Um, and one of the really obvious ones is that when that experience is strongly or tightly held, it can mean that you're less likely to put your hand up for promotions, for new opportunities, because you're too fearful that I will, I will be discovered even more.

• 50:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:13Speaker 00

  So often when that, that feeling is here, it can mean that you're unwilling to step outside of your comfort zone. And the tricky thing about that is that the less we step outside of our comfort zone, the smaller our well becomes. The thing that promotes confidence is actually action. So, and we speak about this a lot in therapy and this idea that in order to gain confidence, we have to take the action first. So confidence only arrives from doing the thing rather than confidence coming first. Unless you're done in Kruger, but.

• 50:49Speaker 00

  Most often, we have to do the action to have the feeling.

• 50:53Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 50:54Speaker 00

  Um. So that is kind of an invitation in here to say like, well, can I take a risk?

• 50:59Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 50:59Speaker 00

  Can I put my hand up not knowing how I'll go with that? So I guess the question is, well, how are we going to work with this when this shows up? Because we know that there can be a really debilitating cost to, to having this experience really pervasively.

• 51:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:14Speaker 00

  Um. And I think we've kind of already touched on a couple of things. But I think I'm just going to give you some really concrete examples about how to work with this. And I'm going to, um, side note, obviously, therapy and undertaking a therapeutic process is going to be really helpful for those really, um, more deeply held experiences around self-worth. Um, that often sit at the core here of why imposterism is showing up. So I'm just going to put that to the side and I want to come back to some really practical things that can help us kind of in the moment. How does that sound?

• 51:47Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 51:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, okay.

• 51:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:49Speaker 00

  So the first thing is that we actually want to learn the facts. So this might be a very concrete practice that you do where you write down all the skills that you do have. All the, um, like if, for example, uh, like all the qualifications you have, all the professional development seminars you've undertaken, actually just write them all down.

• 52:08Speaker 01

  Achievements you've.

• 52:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:09Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 52:10Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 52:10Speaker 01

  Anything.

• 52:10Speaker 00

  So we then have a look at not interpretations, but simply facts. These are the facts. I have this number of degrees. I've done this number of professional development seminars. I've got this feedback from these supervisors. So we actually just start to then keep a log of all the positive pieces of information and evidence to say, I am skilled enough here.

• 52:34Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 52:34Speaker 00

  Okay, that's just one really practical thing. Um, the, the thing I think that is probably the most profound, and we've already kind of really touched on this, um, is how we share this feeling. So I know we've spoken about shame quite a bit, but most often imposter feelings bring with it a shame. Or that they're kind of running very closely together. So I'm fearful that I'm going to be discovered as unworthy. And that when that feeling arrives, we know that shame tells you to stay quiet. Because why would I want to tell someone that I don't think I belong here?

• 53:12Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 53:13Speaker 00

  Cause they might agree. So we don't ever want to expose this feeling that I'm having, um, for fear that it could be true.

• 53:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:21Speaker 00

  Okay, yeah. But what we actually know is that we need to speak the shame, to speak these fears that I'm holding with a safe enough person.

• 53:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like this hope that you can, if you're feeling the imposterism and you bring it up, the fear is that like, it, it, it's like I'm pulling the wool over everyone's eyes.

• 53:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:42Speaker 01

  And if I say it, then they'll suddenly realise that, oh, yeah, you shouldn't be here.

• 53:47Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 53:47Speaker 01

  What are you doing here?

• 53:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly, exactly. It's kind of like how the mind is, is kind of working to protect us in some way.

• 53:53Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 53:53Speaker 00

  Yep. So there is an invitation, I think, um, to speak to someone about the fact that you're struggling with this feeling. Now, in an ideal world, for me, it would be that you could speak to a colleague or a supervisor or a boss. But we don't always know if they're, if they've earned the right to hear that necessarily, or that they're safe enough, um, to respond to that appropriately. Um, but if you can say, look, you know, I've got to be honest, you know, I'm new to this job. Um, I am struggling a little bit with feeling like a, an imposter. What we often get, and this kind of comes back to Adam Grant's, uh, you know, original clip, is that,

• 54:33Speaker 00

  um, the people around us can most often be really objective, um, observers and, and sources of information about the fact that we are competent. Um, and so really in that sense, we have this opportunity to seek external feedback about the fact that you do belong here and that you're demonstrating that you do belong.

• 54:53Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 54:54Speaker 00

  Um, so that's, there's a great potential for that there.

• 54:56Speaker 01

  Hmm. And as if you're the person, if someone comes to you

• 55:00Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 55:00Speaker 01

  in a workplace and says, and they say to you, I don't feel like I belong, I feel like I'm an imposter. What's the best response?

• 55:08Speaker 00

  Uh, normalising it. Like, for me, it would be, and I, you know, I supervise quite a few psychology, early career psychologists. And I, I mean, I often share like, yeah, I totally get that. I had that too.

• 55:20Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 55:20Speaker 00

  Um, I absolutely understand, like, you know, we, I've had this experience. I was a beginner once as well, because everyone was a beginner once.

• 55:28Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 55:28Speaker 00

  So I think that feels like a really nice, normalising and validating statement of, yeah, I was there too once. I had those same feelings.

• 55:37Speaker 01

  But then, do you then tell them why they do belong or no? Cause if I was, if I had the imposterism and I went and spoke to someone, I'm desperately wanting them to say like, no, no, no, you do belong, because you've done this and you've done this and you've done this.

• 55:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, I think you can as a, as a boss or a leader or a supervisor. I think of course you can provide feedback to say, no, look, I'm really happy with how you're, you know, how you're performing.

• 55:59Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 55:59Speaker 00

  Um, I think we can provide feedback, absolutely. I think that that's very normal.

• 56:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:05Speaker 00

  It's different from, you know, being with a friend.

• 56:07Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 56:07Speaker 00

  Um, you know, we're not, you know, in a employment context. I think it's very appropriate to be giving actual feedback

• 56:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:14Speaker 00

  about someone's performance there. Um, and for the person then that's asking for feedback, you could ask, you know, what do you think I could work on? So we're really starting to promote more of a growth mindset rather than, um, than more of a fixed mindset, which, which, um, promotes kind of like this all or nothing. I'm a failure, I'm, I'm good enough dichotomy.

• 56:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:38Speaker 00

  Okay. So I think kind of going in with a, a curiosity. I'm struggling with this feeling. Is there, you know, could you give me some feedback on my performance? Can you point me in the direction of, um, you know, some further development? Is there anything I can be working on? So it's very, um, curiosity led. Um, and also indicating that this is important to me, which is also so reinforcing for a leader to hear and, yeah.

• 57:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. I imagine, you mentioned the friend thing there.

• 57:07Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 57:08Speaker 01

  I feel, I think, I imagine that'd be difficult, because if like, if someone, I can see a friend coming to me who like, doesn't feel comfortable at their job and they like, you catch up with them for a beer or coffee or something and they're like, I'm struggling at work. Like, I don't know what I'm, I feel like I don't know what I'm doing. I feel like I shouldn't be there. And I don't know what they do, like.

• 57:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 57:28Speaker 01

  And I'm like, well, I don't know, maybe you don't deserve to be there or maybe you do. Like, I, I have no idea about your competency at work. I like you as a person. I think you're great. So I assume you're looking at this poorly. But, um, what do you say there when you have no objective knowledge of the situation?

• 57:42Speaker 00

  Well, I think first of all, there is immense power in that person speaking at first start.

• 57:47Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 57:47Speaker 00

  Um, so I think we, we may often miss that the actual sharing is very helpful and very therapeutic. So just having this, uh, trusting conversation with you and, and naming my experience. You know, we know, I've said a million times, naming to tame, very, very helpful just by itself.

• 58:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:07Speaker 00

  Um, but then of course, as a friend, you can meet that with, again, like validation and empathy. How like that feels really hard. Um, but you also know your friend.

• 58:18Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 58:18Speaker 00

  You know, I think in those circumstances, you can offer some feedback. You're like, I know you work really hard.

• 58:25Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 58:25Speaker 00

  I know that you have qualified in all of these things. Um, I think you're wonderful. What are you going to listen to? Are you going to listen to that internal dialogue or when is it time? You wouldn't say this as a friend, but more of a therapist. When is it time to take in all of the positive feedback that you're actually getting?

• 58:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 58:45Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 58:46Speaker 02

  I think, I think I've, I've had this a lot recently because a very good friend of Penny and mine, Nat, is in her first year as an OT, and she'll often say to us, oh, I just have the worst imposter syndrome today.

• 58:56Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 58:57Speaker 02

  And I just feel like just saying, yeah, because you're a good person, like you're in your first year, first year of a job and you're doing really important work.

• 59:03Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 59:04Speaker 02

  And because you're a good person, you're aware of the things you've not feel comfortable with yet. So like, you feel like, I feel like if you didn't feel imposter syndrome in this position.

• 59:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:13Speaker 02

  And like, well, that's a very big false sense of confidence.

• 59:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:16Speaker 02

  That, and you're doing important work.

• 59:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, you've got a bit of Dunning Kruger's about it, doesn't it?

• 59:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:21Speaker 02

  Big time, the case.

• 59:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:23Speaker 02

  Yeah. So don't be a DK, like.

• 59:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:26Speaker 02

  Have, have the imposter syndrome, because it's like, you're, you're.

• 59:29Speaker 01

  Phenomenal.

• 59:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, sorry, yes, yeah, yeah.

• 59:32Speaker 00

  Hmm. I think that's the thing is that, you know, and for ourselves when we're suffering with it too, is to really, I mean, obviously I'm going to say that we need to hold a compassionate lens here to this. But also just the fact that it's understandable. There is an understandability about this experience. Uh, it tells me that I care very much. Um, it can, with some wisdom, um, help promote growth and connection with other people. And yeah, like responding in that way of like, yeah, of course, I get it.

• 1:00:01Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, the response is like, oh, that's nice. I'm a good person. That's like your first thing. I've just found out I'm a really good person.

• 1:00:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:00:07Speaker 01

  It's kind of like when I've, don't know if you've experienced this or if you've experienced this as parents, but when I've expressed I feel like I might be failing as a dad or something. So often people will say the very fact that you're questioning these things means you're doing a good job.

• 1:00:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:21Speaker 01

  And I kind of feel like it's a similar thing.

• 1:00:23Speaker 00

  I agree.

• 1:00:23Speaker 01

  In that like, if you're feeling like that is indication that it's not as bad as it is.

• 1:00:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. And, and actually what we know is that usually with time, that feeling, that feeling either becomes less, um, or it has less of a grip around us.

• 1:00:38Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:00:39Speaker 00

  Um, and we start to actually, hopefully begin to internalise the real pieces of evidence that say I can do this. Um, so time is a big one that can be most obviously very helpful. Um, I think I want to really put a big shout out to the role of, um, being a mentor. When, this is going to sound weird, when you have imposter feelings.

• 1:01:02Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:01:03Speaker 00

  So let's just say you're a year into your job. Um, so you've had, you've been there for a sufficient amount of time, but you really, you really kind of tuned into this internal experience. Actually mentoring, tutoring, um, assisting, um, someone more junior to you can be a great, great platform to recognise the skills you do have.

• 1:01:26Speaker 01

  Oh, that's so true.

• 1:01:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've, I've, in the, every now and again, when I've done that, when I've met with someone and they've asked to, you know, they're trying to get into the industry or something. And yeah, you can't, you don't, because you're sort of just always in the thick of doing the job or doing what you do and worrying about doing a good enough job. It's very rare that you actually can sit down and like, talk about the things you do know.

• 1:01:48Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:01:48Speaker 01

  It's kind of like the, the times whenever I've been asked to do a talk or something and you have to talk about your work. You can't, or have, you know, people ask you questions about it, it's like, oh, I actually know quite a bit about this.

• 1:02:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:02:01Speaker 01

  I was pretty impressive.

• 1:02:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, so I

• 1:02:05Speaker 04

  It's a confidence boost.

• 1:02:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely. And it is, it's very reinforcing about, oh yeah, actually, I do have this knowledge, I do have this skill. And I have to also acknowledge the, the benefit of the reverse experience. There's some really great research that, that talks about the importance of what's called a near peer mentor. So a near peer is someone that is really only like a year out, like or early enough in their career to you where you're starting. So sometimes when we talk about mentoring, we might talk about finding a mentor that is 20, 30 years your senior. And so they've lived their whole, you know, career already. And they're offering

• 1:02:49Speaker 00

  wisdom, yes. But sometimes with that kind of gap in age and experience, it's very hard for the mentee to see how they got there.

• 1:03:01Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:03:02Speaker 00

  But if you have a near peer, there's a very short gap to demonstrate how it is that they got there. And it's much more tangible for people to see that there is a pathway for me to get to that place of greater confidence and confidence. Yeah. So it works both as the mentee and the mentor.

• 1:03:21Speaker 04

  Is there, I wonder if there's a, if there's not, I'm sure that would be somewhere, but like Tinder for mentors, you know, where you can kind of like you're matched up with like the right.

• 1:03:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03:31Speaker 04

  You know, where it's like, do you want a near peer? Do you want a far peer? Like, um, what age, what industry? That can be really helpful. Yeah.

• 1:03:38Speaker 02

  It's also, it's also a dynamic that we're kind of used to. Cause I think when you go through school, you're like mentors are here, there's only a year or two above you. Like, and you're used to that, like looking up to someone and you see how they've done the year above you, or they see what they've, what they've achieved. And it's like, like, oh, I'll try and do what they've done.

• 1:03:55Speaker 00

  Yeah. The steps feel very concrete and very clear as opposed to nebulous or vague or just way too big. So absolutely, I think that that can be a really helpful way to combat these impostory feelings. Um, there's, I mean, there's so much more that I could go into. Um, obviously being able to hold a compassionate response to this little part that's feeling really fearful is, is really profoundly important. Um, there is, like I said, there's so many more things, but there is one particular practice that I think can be helpful. Um, and that's actually celebrating success. So I may have spoken about this in other contexts,

• 1:04:37Speaker 00

  but so often when we have been working really hard towards a particular goal, when we get there, yes, we may feel relief, but often we just move on very quickly to the next thing. Um, and I so genuinely believe that there, that when we get to the point of success, we need to pause to soak it in. Um, and in that moment, there is a real opportunity to reflect upon what did I do to get here? And how can I also, um, more somatically and psychologically internalize this good feedback? Um, and so there are a number of different practices that you can do. Um, there's a practice called taking in the good,

• 1:05:19Speaker 00

  which is like a meditation practice. Um, Rick Hanson, um, who I have spoken about a billion times, um, he has a beautiful book called A Positive Neuroplasticity. Um, and that in there talks about this kind of notion of being able to really internalize and to take in this feel good feeling of having achieved it. Um, and that when we internalize that, um, we can then use it as a resource for when I feel anxious or worried in the future. Um, but being able to like, some people do things like keeping a, this is gonna sound weird, but keeping a logbook or a little collection of positive feedback from people. And when you're feeling doubtful, you go back and read it. Um, that can be

• 1:06:02Speaker 00

  helpful. Just kind of like really soaking in that, wow, yes, I've done this and I did put in a lot of hard work.

• 1:06:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's a great idea. Yeah, love it.

• 1:06:14Speaker 00

  There's one more thing I wanted to add. And we've spoken a lot about, obviously about how we cope with this feeling as individuals. But if we come full circle back to the beginning, where, where I mentioned the role of the culture in which we work.

• 1:06:27Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:06:28Speaker 00

  And so I have to really emphasize that as companies, as industries, as particular workplaces, we too have a responsibility to onboard belonging. Um, so that, yeah, so that it's not just the onus is on the individual, but actually, how do we create an environment where people feel free to learn, to feel free to come to us when they're feeling unsure or doubtful? I mean, really, ultimately, it's so good for the bottom line in the end. It improves staff retention. It improves absenteeism, sick leave. It actually results in greater, greater performance in general. So there is an imperative here for the organizations

• 1:07:12Speaker 00

  to pay attention to how we cultivate belonging so that people can move through this feeling of imposterism and actually really function at their full potential.

• 1:07:23Speaker 02

  It's also just a really good thing to do for the business as far as, not as far as like encouraging them to feel, yes, you want to encourage them to feel that they belong, but also you will gain so much. Like one of the youngest staff members that was on this project, I'm always asking her what she thinks because her perspective is, it comes from, she's much more, um, out in the world than I am. And whilst she might not have been doing the work I've been doing for as long, she's got a very different perspective. And her perspective on things is so, well, you guys all know that she's amazing, but I just, I love her thoughts on the world. Um, she's a great person and hearing what she thinks is, yes, hopefully it helps her feel more like she belongs, but also it's great for us in providing, um, material that is, that resonates.

• 1:08:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:08:05Speaker 02

  With what we do, with, with, with people in a way that helps. And it doesn't matter she's been doing it for not as long as the rest of us. She's, she's a wonderful person and she's very smart.

• 1:08:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's spot on.

• 1:08:16Speaker 04

  Yeah. I also, I think to assume if you manage people, just assume that a large percentage of them don't feel like they belong there.

• 1:08:24Speaker 00

  Yes, I think that's a great, yeah, it's better to have that assumption than, than the opposite.

• 1:08:28Speaker 04

  Yeah, absolutely. And, and I think also just believing that they'll feel that they belong naturally. I think that's, doesn't really happen. I think you have to put in effort.

• 1:08:37Speaker 01

  It makes me think about when I first started, when I was a kid and I started playing footy for, and like a club football, club, um, as opposed to just the school footy. And going into like my first game, going into the change rooms of a new footy club, like everyone just assumes that you'll figure it out, but it's terrifying, terrifying. And to know where you fit, you know, like these guys have been playing together for a while. It's so scary, but to, to assume that every new player is going to have this feeling of imposterism and to kind of meet that and make them feel welcome would make a huge difference. I would have taken even more speckies.

• 1:09:24Speaker 00

  Exactly, exactly.

• 1:09:26Speaker 04

  Just saying.

• 1:09:28Speaker 02

  That could be the name of your book.

• 1:09:29Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:09:30Speaker 02

  Speckies. I would have taken more speckies. Would have taken even more speckies.

• 1:09:34Speaker 04

  But we, we do actually have, it's probably worth mentioning that we do have some episodes on belonging.

• 1:09:39Speaker 02

  True.

• 1:09:40Speaker 04

  For people that, uh, want to learn more. So.

• 1:09:42Speaker 01

  Speckies, no, no episodes.

• 1:09:45Speaker 04

  Yeah, not yet, not yet. Um, you did an amazing episode, Em, and we also had Rana Hussain on to talk about belonging. So there's two great, we'll put in the show notes.

• 1:09:53Speaker 02

  Yep. I wish so much I had heard this episode when I was, it should be, it should be one of the last things you do in your final year of, of uni is listen to Em talk about imposter syndrome, because it's something that most people will, I feel like it's a thing, you'll probably have it throughout your life, but it's most prevalent throughout sort of twenties and thirties, as you're trying new things and you're even could be in like, I'm just thinking about all the things that you start doing as an adult, that you never did as a kid. You're like, oh my God, I'm doing an adult thing, like even being in a relationship, um, things like that where you're like, oh, this is, I'm doing an adult thing. I don't know, I have to pretend I know what I'm doing. Um, so I feel like this should be part of every uni degree, just like a bit on imposter syndrome, that you'll experience it. And if you do, you're a good person and here's what you can do it.

• 1:10:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:10:35Speaker 02

  Em, you keep saying amazing stuff and we love you.

• 1:10:38Speaker 00

  Oh, we love you guys.

• 1:10:39Speaker 04

  Ditto.

• 1:10:41Speaker 00

  Thanks for having me.

• 1:10:41Speaker 04

  Thanks, Em.

• 1:10:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:10:42Speaker 02

  See you next time.

• 1:10:43Speaker 00

  Excellent. Bye bye.

• 1:10:45Speaker 04

  Stick around after this to hear a little more. If you love Dr. Em and have always thought, God, I'd love to ask her a question, then you should jump across to a little more Imperfects.

• 1:10:56Speaker 00

  And so Lauren says, why am I feeling more overwhelmed and reactive as a second time mum with my newborn? And how can I manage the internalized anger?

• 1:11:07Speaker 02

  We just had a question from a little more imperfect listener, and it's, as a parent who shares custody, I feel crushing guilt if I don't enjoy every single minute during my weeks with my kids. How do I stop the guilt from making the burnout worse?

• 1:11:21Speaker 00

  And she says, I have always struggled with seeking external validation. I would love to hear Dr. Em's perspective on this, along with any advice she may have on managing it.

• 1:11:30Speaker 04

  So come and join the community at patreon.com slash the imperfects, or you can subscribe at Apple Podcasts. If you want a little more but don't want to pay anymore, then you can join our newsletter at theimperfects.com.au. And while you're there, you'll be able to see the names and faces of all the incredible people who help make this show. A show made on the lands of the Wurundjeri, Wurundjeri people, and we pay our respects to elders past and present.