The childhood struggle that inspired the world’s greatest fish chef - for reel!

How does having cancer as a child impact the way you live as an adult? Uber successful chef and restauranteur Josh Niland doesn’t do things in halves (no, literally, have you read his book The Whole Fish?). From opening a restaurant at 26, to becoming the first Australian to win the James Beard Book of the Year award when he was just 30, Josh’s creativity came from a place of desperation to explore every opportunity presented to him. 💌Join 9,400+ people getting a Dr Emily values worksheet and takeaways from this week’s episode in our newsletter - http://bit.ly/45NyQDy Diagnosed with cancer 2 days after his 8th birthday, Josh’s childhood transformed in a matter of hours into hospital hallways, chemotherapy and facing his own mortality. In this episode, Josh joins us in the Vulnerabilitea House to talk us through an experience which profoundly changed him, which he is now grateful for. Hugh, Ryan and Josh (our Josh), also ask about where his drive and ambitious creativity comes from, and just how close to failure Josh’s culinary career came. We wish this chat could have gone on longer, If you want to watch this full episode on YouTube, follow this link - 🫖Other Imperfect’s episodes mentioned on this episode Nathan Cavaleri - The Ups & The Blues - https://bit.ly/468HE7l 📺 Things to watch Josh’s Australian Story - https://bit.ly/4giDtKR 📚Things to read Saint Peter: Chapter & Verse, by Josh Niland - https://bit.ly/4bVM0SN The Whole Fish, by Josh Niland - https://bit.ly/4bVM0SN 🍽️ Places to eat Saint Peter - https://bit.ly/4qrs4gv 💻Things to check out Starlight Children’s Foundation - https://bit.ly/4hHDkmM Josh Niland’s Website - https://www.mrniland.com 🩷To host your own Vulnerabilitea House, purchase here - theimperfects.com.au/shop 🩵To purchase our journal (or your novel) My Imperfect Life, click here - theimperfects.com.au/shop 🩵To join our subscriber community, A Little More Imperfects, follow this link - patreon.com/theimperfects 🩷 AND you can subscribe to A Little More Imperfects through Apple Podcasts http://apple.co/theimperfects The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you’re struggling, please see a healthcare professional, or call lifeline on 13 11 14.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  That was the engine that fuelled the creativity.

• 0:05Speaker 01

  Chef Josh Niland revolutionised cooking.

• 0:08Speaker 00

  You know, I came up with the fish eye chip. I came to work one morning, I was like, you know those prawn crackers you get at the Chinese restaurant? Like, let's do that out of fish eyes, because it should work.

• 0:17Speaker 01

  Obviously. But Josh hasn't got to where he is without his struggles.

• 0:22Speaker 00

  Two days after my eighth birthday, I was diagnosed with a Wilms tumor. And then I just turned and looked at mum and I said, mum, I'm gonna die.

• 0:31Speaker 00

  And I think that was the first time I ever saw mum cry.

• 0:34Speaker 01

  It's a tough thing to have to leave your childhood a bit early.

• 0:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 0:39Speaker 01

  Then, like some sort of genie, the Starlight Foundation showed up.

• 0:44Speaker 00

  They literally come and knock on your door and say, your son's able to have a wish. What would you like to do? And at that point in time, there was no parameters around what that wish looked like.

• 0:55Speaker 01

  What was the wish?

• 0:56Speaker 00

  So the wish was that, uh...

• 0:58Speaker 01

  Oh, no.

• 1:00Speaker 00

  Was it? Yeah, yeah.

• 1:01Speaker 01

  That's proper magic, isn't it?

• 1:04Speaker 01

  This is the Vulnerability House. For so long, there's been a huge question that so many of us have had, like since growing up, I think. And hopefully today with Josh Niland, we can find out which fish has fingers.

• 1:26Speaker 00

  It's a great question, right?

• 1:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've always thought that.

• 1:29Speaker 00

  Okay, funny story, like when I worked at Fishface in Darlinghurst with a chap named Stephen Hodges, who's arguably the best fish cook in the country. He changed Fishface to become Fish and Chips by Fishface. And so then we tested out all these secondary cuts of fish, like all these bycatch fish.

• 1:49Speaker 01

  What's a bycatch fish?

• 1:50Speaker 00

  Well, it's a fish that comes up with what you wanted, but there's a couple other ones over here. And what are we gonna do with these ones?

• 1:56Speaker 01

  I thought it might have been two people caught it at the same time.

• 1:59Speaker 00

  Mine.

• 2:01Speaker 00

  No, so, you know, Steve started saying, we're gonna get a few different species through the door. It's less fancy restaurant and more fish and chipper vibe. So let's, let's have a look at some things. Anyway, we got a gummy shark, so a little tiny shark. And it came in, it had like these two arms, like either side of it underneath its fins. And I'm like, what's that?

• 2:21Speaker 01

  Two arms?

• 2:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, like there's these two rods basically coming down out of its, its fins on the underside. I'm like, what is this? And he's like, I don't know. And so then went home, tried to read up a bit about it, look online. Turns out they're claspers. And claspers are a shark's penis. And they have two.

• 2:40Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 2:41Speaker 00

  There you go.

• 2:42Speaker 01

  That's why it's a bycatch.

• 2:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's right. And so the next day then, I've cut them off and, you know, gone and cooked them and then crumbed them in breadcrumbs and then deep fried them and put crumb shark, clasper on the menu. But called it crumb shark cutlet.

• 2:58Speaker 01

  Really?

• 2:59Speaker 00

  Gummy shark, not shark dick. Yeah, well.

• 3:02Speaker 01

  Shark.

• 3:05Speaker 00

  Wow. Podcast for another time.

• 3:08Speaker 01

  Wow, we're right into it.

• 3:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:11Speaker 02

  I don't know how many species have two penises? And which one I would prefer to use?

• 3:15Speaker 01

  Guilty.

• 3:20Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, this is obviously people know, but Josh, Josh Niland, you are like really in the, in the food world. I mean, Hugh, I know you probably want to give a little bit of a, bit of context here, but you are one of the, the big dogs in the chef.

• 3:36Speaker 00

  The big fish.

• 3:36Speaker 01

  One of the big fish, it's true. And it is like.

• 3:39Speaker 02

  You're a big fish in a big, in a big pond, that's how big he is.

• 3:41Speaker 01

  And I, I mean, I love going to restaurants and I just really, I'm very excited to talk to you today. And I'm gonna try not to make it too much about just food and food things. And I'm sure Josh is the same, because Josh loves food. Hugh loves fish fingers so much.

• 3:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I mean, chef, restaurateur, author, your book, in 2019, The Whole Fish Cookbook. So you'd end up being the first Australian to win the James Beard Foundation's Book of the Year Award. That's amazing.

• 4:11Speaker 00

  It is, yeah.

• 4:12Speaker 01

  That's kind of the Oscars of cookbooks, isn't it?

• 4:14Speaker 00

  Yeah. And it's, I think internally in, in the chef world or in the food world, that there is that reverence towards that body that, that hands out. It's like Michelin and things like that. And, and I think for a lot of cooks here in Australia, we, we know about it, but it's not necessarily out, like within our spectrum of, oh, hopefully I'll win that one day. Because it's not like in America, it's like that's their chef of the year, that's their restaurant of the year. That's, you know, that's what they're kind of chasing. And then to get a nomination for The Whole Fish, I was like, wow, that's serious. Somebody over there read it, that's cool.

• 4:47Speaker 01

  But it must have been so, at the time, I remember when you first sort of came on the scene, so to speak, or when I first heard about you, it was, it was quite revolutionary, what you were doing.

• 4:59Speaker 00

  Yeah. We, we set out with the task, like we really wanted to showcase the quality and diversity of Australian seafood. That was the primary objective. And I suppressed my desire to make it anything more than that by putting the little heading underneath, St Peter and Australian Fish Eatery. And so by using the word eatery, it was kind of like this, okay, it's, it's all right. It's just a really nice little spot where you can come in. You can have an entree and a glass of wine and go, or you can come and have some cheese and then go. You don't have to do anything, just, just use it. And it's a 34-seat restaurant. And we opened, and I think getting the first fish bill, like first invoice for fish, and it was come, it came in at like four and a half thousand dollars worth of fish. I was like, bloody hell, this is.

• 5:45Speaker 00

  Like I knew the money we were spending on fish at Fishface and I knew in restaurants, it was always that premium, don't mess this up kind of product. And I think to get on with the story, there was probably six or seven months into doing what we were doing. And I hadn't been home, like I, I was working so much, like, and you know, every chef would say the same thing. Like you just work your guts out until you get it right. But it's never gonna be right, so you just keep working.

• 6:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:12Speaker 00

  And I think in that period of time, my wife had had another child and, you know, I hadn't really, you know, seen, seen the kids. I hadn't seen her and it was just a lot.

• 6:20Speaker 01

  How, how old were you when you opened it?

• 6:22Speaker 00

  26.

• 6:23Speaker 01

  26. Is that young to open your own restaurant?

• 6:26Speaker 00

  I think so.

• 6:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:27Speaker 00

  And in that period of time, getting into that six-month mark, where I was broken and tired and I was kind of, I need to change something. The solution was let's throw people at it to fix it. So I'll get more chefs and I'll get more staff and go, go, go. And so I put all these bodies at it and then I'm like, okay, I can, I can take a day off. You know what I mean? But then winter hits and you're less shiny and less wonderful than you were when you first opened. And all these other cool restaurants have opened and Vivid in the cities just started. So we're gonna go over here. And then all of a sudden, your wage costs has ballooned. The food costs has remained constant at 35% that, you know, because you're never gonna budge on the quality of product you're buying.

• 7:09Speaker 00

  And with all the costs rising and revenue plummeting, then the accountant's in the air most mornings going, you know, what are you gonna do? Because you're not, like, it's not gonna work. You're gonna have to sort it out. And so we got to the point where I said, I'm not gonna lose anyone. I'm not gonna get rid of anybody because they've all come because they're excited to work for us. And so I started putting trays on top of all the garbage bins. And, and any, anytime anybody wanted to throw anything away, that it had hit the tray. And then I'd catch it and then we'd pack it away at the end of the night. And I'd come in the next morning and try to come up with something to do with all this stuff that we were casting aside.

• 7:44Speaker 01

  How much of the fish was cast aside?

• 7:47Speaker 00

  About half.

• 7:48Speaker 01

  Wow. Oh, okay, sorry. I thought that the whole fish philosophy was from the very start, but it wasn't.

• 7:53Speaker 00

  No, it was from the very beginning, it was obviously, like I said, just buying great Australian fish and diversity. Because there's so much wonderful fish here, rather than just barramundi and salmon and all this sort of stuff that you constantly see. You know, we had sardines, we had, you know, wild kingfish, all these lovely fish. And that was the priority, show people how good it is. But then it was that moment where it was, you know, what are we doing with the other half? Like what are we doing with the hearts and spleens and the actual stomach and the eyes and all the actual heavy stuff? Like what are we doing with that? And, you know, that original fish bill of four and a half thousand dollars, that's 2,250 bucks that's going in the bin.

• 8:37Speaker 00

  And so rather than, rather than stripping great people who are attracted to working for you out of it, then let's fix the problem that we can actually solve and let's creatively try to work this out. And so. Literally, I was getting, you know, my wife talking to me constantly like, what are we gonna do? Like, you know, this is really bad. And like, accountant's like, you're not gonna make it. And, and I just said, I've just got to get to September. And I know that sounds silly. I just kept saying September, just because that's the restaurant awards and all this sort of stuff. And I thought, if we were to get there, then we might be able to get enough steam up to get through summer.

• 9:12Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 9:13Speaker 00

  And, um, you know, I came up with the fish eye chip. I came to work one morning, I was like, you know, those prawn crackers you get at the Chinese restaurant? Like, let's do that out of fish eyes, because it should work.

• 9:23Speaker 01

  Obviously.

• 9:24Speaker 00

  So I blended them up into this porridge and then added some tapioca flour to it, spread it out on a tray, steamed it, dried it and deep fried it. And it was this almost chicharron, puffy pork rind thing. And I was just like, that's pretty cool. And I ate it. And I was like, that's delicious. And doesn't really taste like anything. It's like, a little bit anchovy-esque. And, and then what we did for that is we started putting it down on everybody's tables when they sat down. We didn't tell them what it was. It's just, here, try this. And then they're like, oh, yum. Drink. And off they go. End of the meal. What did you think of dinner? Oh, we had a great time. Thanks so much. And they're like, what did you think about the, the chip that you had? And then they're like, yeah, yeah, that was great. What was that? And you're like, fish eye. And that was the response. It was that little giggle and the bit of like, oh, wow, that's fun.

• 10:09Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 10:09Speaker 00

  And then they'd leave. And I think that really narrow point of view and that unique approach to utilizing the whole fish wasn't born out of clickbait. Like, that's not what it was. But it was to say, how do I get a Western audience, um, to consume the entirety of a fish with deep comfort? And, and like, that's delicious. I want another one. Because all throughout Asia and Middle East, everybody's eating everything. Because that's what they've grown up enjoying.

• 10:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:37Speaker 00

  And we, I mean, I grew up knowing that salmon lived in a tin.

• 10:40Speaker 01

  Well, there's a lot of, I mean, I guess like, when people also think of, you know, fancy restaurants, or like restaurants of like a high quality, it's very rare, and understandably, it's very rare that you also think of like, play and fun. There's sort of like, it's like a sense of fun in a fish eye chip.

• 11:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:00Speaker 01

  It's just like, oh, what? It's like, I didn't think you could do that. It's sort of like, breaking conventions in a fun way.

• 11:06Speaker 00

  Well, it was fun because it's deep fried, it's crunchy and it's salty. So the, the, the deep comfort you feel upon that arriving to the table is removed of the anxiety of slimy eyeballs in a bowl. Like, I don't want to eat that. And so I was always trying to find those little things. As a group, we're always trying to find these things that made people more comfortable and to remove the trepidation and fear out of what seafood is to a lot of people. Uh, it usually comes with a connotation of odor and cold and wet and slimy and bony. So. Anyway, September came. And fortunately, St. Peter won best new restaurant in the country and, uh, for the good food. And, and yeah, very, very cool. And that spurred on a really good amount of bookings for, for the rest of the year.

• 11:50Speaker 02

  It's a great story.

• 11:51Speaker 01

  It's incredible, isn't it?

• 11:53Speaker 00

  But yeah, that's the, the first six months were pretty gnarly. Like, it was like a lot of days and nights where, you know, I, I tried to write about it as best I could in my new book. Um, just to kind of go, yeah, there were nights where you're there at three o'clock in the morning and you're kind of, you know, trying to clean up after everything had happened. And you sent the chefs home because it's like, you guys can't be here. Like, go home. Like, go sleep. And then you're there. And I, I wrote one particular little bit saying like, I'm there scrubbing and then like, I'm on the ground. I'm like, scrubbing out. I knocked this pot and then all, like, all these pots like hit me on the head. And I'm just sitting there like, this sucks. Like, when does this actually get better?

• 12:31Speaker 01

  Get cool.

• 12:31Speaker 00

  Or is it, yeah. When, when will it get better?

• 12:35Speaker 01

  Hi, it's Ryan from The Imperfects. And I'm reaching out to you now because we need your help, gosh darn it.

• 12:41Speaker 00

  What, why do we need?

• 12:43Speaker 01

  Sorry. No, we're, I'm just, uh, making a plea to the listeners and viewers to ask them to subscribe to the show in whichever way they see fit. Because it really helps. The more subscribers, the better we can make this show. Am I right?

• 12:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I don't think we need to, I think we could just ask them politely.

• 12:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, but if I use the emotional music.

• 13:01Speaker 00

  I think the music's a bit much.

• 13:02Speaker 01

  Is it?

• 13:03Speaker 02

  Who's playing that music?

• 13:04Speaker 01

  Doesn't matter who's playing the music. The important thing is, we're pulling at the heartstrings and asking them to do us a solid.

• 13:10Speaker 00

  Could we not just ask, like, just ask them straight? Like, oh, it'd really help us if you guys subscribed, because we would be able to make more of the show and make the show better.

• 13:18Speaker 01

  Hmm. Oh, and not use emotional manipulation.

• 13:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, I reckon.

• 13:22Speaker 01

  Well, you can give it a go, but I doubt it'll work. This is a vulnerability house episode. And because you, I mean, you're a chef. And, and I think, you know, the whole, the big part of what this show is, I guess, is finding out like who people are outside of what people actually know publicly. Um, so there's a, we've got our vulnerability house cards in front of you, Josh. Uh, and on each of these cards, um, some people don't know, but on each of these cards is a question. And if you just pick the top three cards and read them out. And if one of those questions sparks like a memory or a story about you or your life or something, um, then, and you're comfy to share it with us.

• 14:03Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 14:03Speaker 01

  That would be great.

• 14:08Speaker 00

  All right. What have we got here? So, how do you celebrate success? And do you feel like you've achieved it?

• 14:14Speaker 01

  Well, that's an easy one.

• 14:17Speaker 01

  Second one is, how do you cook fish?

• 14:20Speaker 00

  What moment from your life are you grateful for that profoundly changed you? And then what do you find yourself spending money on when you're feeling emotional? Food? No. Um, uh, I like the middle one.

• 14:33Speaker 01

  Which one's that one?

• 14:34Speaker 00

  What moment from your life are you grateful for that profoundly changed you? Um, I mean, yeah. The, I suppose the first thing that springs to mind is, um, probably more a feeling of hindsight more than anything. Uh, there's, there's a level of gratitude that I feel towards my, uh, mum and dad, uh, towards, yeah, my family and my sister. Um, and only in sort of, I won't say now, of course, it was probably a little earlier than now, but only now at thirty seven and being a father of four and, and married and, you know, house and, and business and stuff like that. Do I now respect and appreciate

• 15:16Speaker 00

  deeply what they did at the time when I was eight? Um, so I'm, two days after my eighth birthday, I was diagnosed with a Wilms tumor. Um, so I had a, uh, stage two tumor develop on my right kidney, um, as, as a kid. And.

• 15:32Speaker 02

  Was that, sorry, when you, what, what's Wilms?

• 15:35Speaker 00

  So Wilms tumor. So it's a, what do they say? It's one of the more common, uh, tumors. So it's different to leukemia.

• 15:42Speaker 02

  Right.

• 15:42Speaker 00

  This tumor, the Wilms tumor attaches itself to the kidney. It has a usually a fairly high success rate of, of recovery. Um, but given that this one was found in stage two, it was already kind of rapidly starting to develop in size and stuff. So in, in that year, um, it was in, uh, I was seven and I think I remember around being in June for my sister's birthday, I had glandular fever. And I was quite crook. And then throughout the year, I had quite a few colds and flus. And I was just a little bit off the boil for the whole year. And then I had my eighth birthday, the Maccas party, which was pretty cool. Uh, did the limbo and, you know, had the ice cream cake.

• 16:20Speaker 01

  The limbo, the Maccas party?

• 16:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:22Speaker 01

  Really?

• 16:22Speaker 00

  Yeah. East Maitland and, uh, near the green hills there.

• 16:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:26Speaker 00

  Um, the, yeah, so I had, I had the Maccas party. Uh, and then the next day I didn't go to school. Just because I was, I was pretty wiped out. And mum scheduled a, a doctor's appointment for the next day. And so I, I took the day off sick and we all put it down to a bit of a sugar hangover. And then the next day, then I remember getting up in the morning. And I lifted my pajama t-shirt up over my head. And then as my arms went up, then a physical lump dropped down out of my rib cage. And, and mum, mum saw it straight away.

• 16:57Speaker 01

  Dropped down? How, how does that work? What do you mean?

• 16:59Speaker 00

  Pretty much just this softball-like sized mass became apparent upon my arms being up and then down. And, um, I felt it physically, but then mum saw it. And then I looked down and there's a little bump there. And I was like, I hadn't seen that before. And, uh, so then we went to the eight o'clock appointment, uh, at the local, um, GP that we'd all gone to since we were kids, had little kids. And then, um, they said, okay, we're gonna have to do a few tests. So a few tests turned into from eight AM till about four thirty in the afternoon worth of blood tests and pokes and prods and MRIs and CAT scans and

• 17:41Speaker 00

  ultrasounds and all of that. And then we get to four thirty in the afternoon and we're sitting in this office together. I'm starving. Cause like, they just said, can't eat for the day. And, um, I just remember, yeah, the, the doctor said, um, your son's got a, a Wilms tumor. You got to get him to the hospital as quickly as you can. Um, he can either go in the ambulance with us now, or you guys can, um, you can get him there.

• 18:07Speaker 02

  So I said it in front of you, you were there for that?

• 18:09Speaker 00

  It was my mum and I in the office. And I straight away was like, yeah, can we go in the ambulance? That sounds pretty cool. Like, you know?

• 18:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:16Speaker 00

  And, um.

• 18:16Speaker 01

  Can you remember your mum's reaction?

• 18:19Speaker 00

  I, I was, you know, from all accounts in my mind, this like stoic kind of, not necessarily unfazed. She was very like, emotionally kind of charged about it, but she, she didn't cry. She didn't react. She was just taking information in and, and needing then to go and do what needed to be happened.

• 18:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:42Speaker 00

  So we leave, we get in the car, we're driving back. Um, and I can remember getting about halfway home. And it's funny that the things that you actually remember, because you're sitting, you're sitting halfway from home in the car. It's a pretty nice day. Right? Sun's coming into the car. It's, it's a pretty nice day. And, um, you're at the traffic lights. And then I just turned and looked at mum and I said, mum, I'm gonna die.

• 19:08Speaker 01

  Am I gonna die?

• 19:09Speaker 00

  Yeah. And now in hindsight, like it's pretty heavy chat like to to throw out and say, but at eight, the only context you have of cancer is I'm old and I'm going to die. That's it. Like, so at that point, and only at that point, then did mum cry. And I think that was the first time I ever saw mum cry. Um, and that that was that was super hard because then the severity of the situation became very real. Um, and we got home and it was pretty well.

• 19:44Speaker 01

  So did she have an answer to that question?

• 19:47Speaker 00

  No, I think that's what made her cry.

• 19:49Speaker 01

  Right.

• 19:49Speaker 00

  And she, you know, I I just kind of, I got upset as well and we kind of just pushed on with it and we drove home. But I didn't need an answer, I don't think. But yeah, I would have done the same thing. So I got home and it was about five o'clock and I can remember it was Wednesday. And five thirty was always when we went to swimming and my sister was in her swimmers, ready to go. She had a cap on, I think. She was like, ready. And she's like, why are you so late? And I've got to get to this. And, you know, she was, yeah, pretty intense. And and then mum and I came in and we we said about everything. Everybody got changed, all the bags got packed from swimming gear to hospital gear.

• 20:31Speaker 00

  And everybody got in the car and we went to the John Hunter Hospital in in Newcastle, which was about thirty minutes away. Doctors there, again, this is from my memory, mum probably listening to this is going, that didn't happen. But in terms of timeline from my memory was, we went to, went to John Hunter, they poked and prodded and they said, you've got to get to Sydney. And so then another two hours in the car down to Sydney. Sydney Children's Hospital had just opened in Ramwick and it was a brand new thing, you know. And so we went there and I remember getting out of the car and walking into the lobby and the whole thing smelled like fresh paint. Like I could just smell paint.

• 21:08Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 21:09Speaker 00

  And um, it's amazing that you can remember everything.

• 21:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:12Speaker 00

  And then I remember everybody being super chipper, like everybody was really lovely. And they kind of came over, hey, how are you going? And, you know, come on through and and we got, we got settled. And then this chap named Professor Vowles, um, he was the surgeon who was going to do everything. Anyway, he came in, he had a Sharpie and he's drawing all over my stomach. We're gonna do this and check out this. And he's, you know, he's trying to make it as comfortable and not necessarily exciting, but just he's being very kind.

• 21:39Speaker 01

  Um, how, how long is this since you first found out from the GP?

• 21:44Speaker 00

  Hours, like.

• 21:45Speaker 01

  Hours.

• 21:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:46Speaker 01

  Whoa. So you're still in shock and your mum's in shock.

• 21:48Speaker 00

  Yeah. And um, yeah, and so then from there, just getting me prepped basically for for surgery. Um, and that was pretty much the following day. Um, and yeah, they, they, uh, there was some complications prior to the surgery. And they said to mum and dad that part of the tumour has broken off and now it's sitting on his venercava, uh, which is what sits next to your aorta. Um, and they then put heart bypass surgery on standby, just because they said that it might get complicated. And anyway, went into surgery. I can't remember how long it went for, but it was, it was quite a long surgery, just because there was some details to it.

• 22:29Speaker 00

  Um, the tumour they took off my uh, venercava was the size of a thirty watt light globe. And then the size of the tumour on my right kidney was the size of a twelve month old baby head.

• 22:41Speaker 01

  What?

• 22:42Speaker 00

  And um, the tumour was that big that it had pushed my kidney, my right kidney around to the front, which is why then I had this mass at the front of my stomach, when really your kidneys are at your back.

• 22:53Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 22:54Speaker 00

  So, um, so they basically opened me up from here, here and one at the top. So it's, I've got a triangle scar, basically. And they've opened that way and then kidneys come out. They've got to the, the, the reason they had to go up was because it was sitting close to my heart. And um, yeah, and and successful in the sense that the tumour came out, both tumours came out, the whole kidney came out. And then I went into intensive care. And yeah, throughout that time, I I think because the the Children's Hospital was so new, they had all these, you know, celebrities and sort of things going through the place. And uh, you know, at one point, there was a photo of me with the bananas in pyjamas, which was pretty cool.

• 23:38Speaker 00

  And another one with Scooby Doo and Shaggy over my bed. And then, you know, the Ramwick Rugby Union team, like David Campezi shorts, they're like holding up like, you know, they're getting all these great, you know, these great shots of me just like this. And I'm just like out of it with tubes and wires and things coming out of me and um, yeah. So I'm in there for quite a while, uh, like the best part of a week. And then after that.

• 24:02Speaker 01

  In intensive.

• 24:02Speaker 00

  In intensive care. And I can remember when I woke up, I'd felt like I'd been hit by a bus. Like the, the pain of just everything having moved and like just pulled and stretched and all that. That was, yeah, so that was, that was intense. And the gratitude now that I feel, not only for my mum for just sitting, sitting in the hospital room by herself on a chair, like just waiting, you know what I mean? And and hoping, you know. But then my dad, who's running, you know, his own business, like at the back of our house, he's a tax agent accountant back then. And getting my sister to and from school and making sure that that, the normality of a ten year old girl's life continues and, you know.

• 24:48Speaker 00

  Yeah. So all of that, the, it's only something now that I can look at and go like, unbelievable. Unbelievable people that are still married and happily married. And yeah, just how, how much you're able to take from what that experience must have been like for them. And then you take it forward to to how then you you approach your own relationships and your marriage and and and the kids. And yeah, it's, it's pretty amazing. Yeah.

• 25:17Speaker 01

  Do you have a memory of um, when you were like trying to get back in, so so going back to school, for example?

• 25:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:25Speaker 01

  Um, what, what that was like?

• 25:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, I can remember um, getting, like dad came down, it was pretty exciting that I was able to leave the hospital. And I think I was leaving the day of Melbourne Cup. Because I remember them putting up all the horseshoes and the little foil ponies around everywhere in the ward that I was in. And um, and I can remember there was a really lovely guy who was a painter, an artist. And he was finishing the walls of the Sydney Children's Hospital, he was doing murals and stuff. And I can remember walking past there a few times with mum and I had a frame and I was walking along and, you know. And I saw this guy at the end and he was finishing off the sneakers on a koala, like on the wall, like it was koala wearing sneakers. And it was like this cool purple and yellow shoe, I think it was a Nike or something.

• 26:11Speaker 00

  And he'd written my name in the cell, like in the air cell of the back of that thing. He goes, check out this. And I'm like, that's so cool. I think I went to the Starlight Room a few years back before we did the Starlight Dinner at the Four Seasons. But I think I remember seeing that was still there.

• 26:28Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 26:28Speaker 00

  So, um, but that was, you know, leaving the hospital was really nice. Everybody was super excited when you get to leave, you know what I mean? And the Starlight Foundation in particular at that time were really great. Um, because, you know, PlayStations and all that stuff was so amazing to have like in a special room and it was a bit of a breakout. And I remember getting into the car and it was relatively late in the evening. And I just, I can remember the pain of the um, seatbelt. I, I couldn't, like, I had like two and a half hour trip home with my seatbelt just held away from my stomach. Because it's like, if it goes that way, then it's just literally across where I've, you know, had all my operations. So it was an uncomfortable trip home.

• 27:09Speaker 00

  But then I said to mum and dad, I'm going to school tomorrow, like a hundred percent. Like I, I want to see my friends, I want to, you know, get back to normal. And so I remember walking across the um, the big playground, like it's a big slab of concrete.

• 27:26Speaker 01

  Quad drangle.

• 27:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, quad drangle. Um, and I was walking across and always the naughty kids of the class get sat in the front of the class. And there was one particular boy, Adam, he, he was always in the front chair. And uh, I can just remember him looking outside the door of me walking across the quad. And he yells out, Josh is back and he's got no hair.

• 27:46Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 27:47Speaker 00

  And um, I come into the classroom, yeah, no hair, chemo had started.

• 27:51Speaker 01

  Oh, chemo had started, yeah.

• 27:53Speaker 00

  Chemo had started, no hair, eyebrows, eyelashes, just a shadow of myself.

• 27:59Speaker 01

  I mean, that's, I mean, I'm, I'm, it's quite amazing that you were so keen to go back to school. I guess you're only eight.

• 28:05Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 28:06Speaker 01

  But like, were you, do you remember being self-conscious about the fact that you?

• 28:10Speaker 00

  Uh, no, I, I don't, I don't think I felt overly self-conscious. I was very like cautious about how I was moving. I didn't want anybody to touch me or or kind of knock me or anything. So I was a little bit like sensitive in that sense, but I was just excited to see everybody. And also, like, there was a level of like, that's pretty cool, like, you know, this, this happened and, you know, they did all this. And you're at the class and you're telling them what what's going on.

• 28:34Speaker 01

  It's a decent show and tell.

• 28:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, and and then you're just desperate to to find some rhythm again. Like you just want to get back into it, like, oh, when can I start doing soccer and when can I, you know, yeah.

• 28:48Speaker 02

  Hey, Ryan and Josh.

• 28:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:49Speaker 02

  Permission to advertise my own thing.

• 28:52Speaker 00

  Oh, what is your thing?

• 28:53Speaker 01

  Yes, please.

• 28:53Speaker 02

  The Resilience Project.

• 28:54Speaker 01

  Oh, cool. Oh, I mean, permission to get excited about your thing.

• 28:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:58Speaker 01

  You know what I love? When people come up to me and go like, hey, I just want to say the Resilience Project has completely changed my kid's life. It's saved us. Thank you so much. And I just choose not to tell them that's got nothing to do with me.

• 29:09Speaker 00

  I'd do the exact same thing. Oh, thanks. Yeah.

• 29:12Speaker 02

  Well, that, that makes me very happy to hear that. We have now partnered with fourteen hundred schools around Australia. So I think for a lot of people, it's like, yeah, we would love to do a wellbeing program. But my first question, as a principal in a school, do we know it's going to work? And Monash University found that after six years of doing the Resilience Project, um, the chance of a child developing an anxiety disorder is, has decreased by thirty four percent. And the chance of developing depressive symptoms decreased by forty seven percent.

• 29:39Speaker 00

  It's so incredible, not surprising, but amazing to have the numbers.

• 29:43Speaker 02

  So if you want to see how the Resilience Project Schools Wellbeing Program could work for your school in two thousand twenty seven, please head to our website, theresilienceproject.com.au and you'll find um, everything you need to know about our wellbeing program there.

• 29:57Speaker 01

  Was there a sense of, um, at that age of how potentially lucky you were? Like, did you feel like there was a chance you wouldn't make it at any point? And you immediately had gratitude for being alive? And did you feel like it was like you were getting another chance or?

• 30:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, yeah, I think there was that certain, that the aspect of reminiscing on when I asked mum, you know, whether I was gonna die or not, and then I'd come kind of through it a little bit. Even though at that point in time, you're only just starting because you're on, you're on the precipice of this 18 months of chemo in front of you. And you've just finished the radiotherapy and, you know, you start doing this rhythm of chemo, which was intense, like it was, you know, you'd have two doses a week, one that took half an hour to administer, and then the other one took three hours. And the one that took three hours was orange and it was wrapped in foil and it was always kept in the fridge. And when it was dripping into you for three hours, that's all, like you could feel every inch of where it was going and what it was doing.

• 30:59Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 31:00Speaker 00

  And it was just.

• 31:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, I used all for that.

• 31:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, and, you know, you're there and they're finding the vein on your arm every time. And it's really uncomfortable, like just as a, you know, it's one thing to have chemotherapy, but then just the needle, like and doing the arm every time. And then they said, oh, we think your son should have a portocath. And I'm like, okay, cool, what's that? And then they said, it's basically like a Coke bottle lid and we'll put it in his chest and that attaches to a tube that goes up into, you know, the main, you know, jugular in your neck. And then that dispenses the chemo out, so that'll be good.

• 31:36Speaker 01

  So no more needles?

• 31:37Speaker 00

  No more, no more finding, you know, veins in your arm. So, okay, we'll do that, put the portocath in. Then the, the needle changes from being a traditional one to then what looks like a little white rectangle with like a crooked key kind of shaped needle. And then they put that into your chest, which just goes straight into the portocath. So it is essentially a port for the, for the needle to hit. And then the chemo goes in, so it's a little less stressful, still full on, but less stressful. Get to about, however long it might have been, eight months or something after starting chemo. They put the portocath in, they start to administer the three hours of chemo. I'm screaming for the first 20 minutes, like in complete agony, pain.

• 32:21Speaker 00

  And everybody, I think at the time, felt like I was being dramatic, like and I was kind of having a bad day. But then it turned out that the needle had missed the portocath. And then the best part of the first period of dosage of the chemo had gone into my left armpit and burnt all the muscle fibers under my, my arm. And so, um, so then, yeah, they, they took it out and, yeah, mum's there trying to hold me together. And, yeah, we're just, I get, it did feel like two steps forward, like 10 steps back. And, and then I got really worried, like, does this mean that I've got to do all this? And, you know, I think there's even footage of the, the Australian story where it actually shows that

• 33:05Speaker 00

  kind of happening and, and it just, it was incredibly traumatic and it was really.

• 33:09Speaker 01

  That happening to you?

• 33:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:10Speaker 01

  There's footage of it?

• 33:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think so, like, because the MBN, on Channel Nine, kind of parent, kind of company in Newcastle, they, they were doing a documentary called One Day at a Time. And they were following the stories of half a dozen kids that were crook and leukemias and brain cancer and all this sort of stuff. And I was one of those kids. And, um, yeah, they, yeah, they were watching, um, this, this chemo happen. And I was just, I was in pain, you know? And, um, and, yeah, that was it. And then they basically said, look, your son's gonna have to undergo some hydrotherapy to start rebuilding the muscle under his arm. So then I start doing, um, hydrotherapy, which, you know, was another couple of hours out of school, which is always annoying.

• 33:57Speaker 00

  Um, I get there and there's this wonderful woman named Anne and, um, she was my, my instructor. She would bring me date and walnut loaf that she would make. Um, and it was the most delicious thing. And, um, she definitely helped me put a few kegs on at that time. Um, and.

• 34:14Speaker 01

  And at the end she goes, guess what? This is made of fisheye.

• 34:18Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 34:20Speaker 00

  And it's, and it's not for making the story incredibly horrible, but, um, I, you know, you do that for a couple of months and it feels like things are getting better and all of that. But then the hydrotherapy causes you to get, you know, ear infections and then you get your ears drained, um, a couple of days a week, which is miserable for anybody that's had that before. And then turns out that then Anne goes away for a, a family camping trip. And, um, she, she was camping near, near the river and she, she rolled in. And so she, she died and it was another just blow at a time where all this stuff

• 35:03Speaker 00

  is either seemingly getting better or getting significantly worse. And, um, then you become less enthused to wanna go do hydrotherapy anymore because the lady who's.

• 35:14Speaker 01

  So, so Anne was the teacher, the hydrotherapy teacher?

• 35:17Speaker 00

  And she went camping with her family and she was in a, a sleeping bag and she's rolled out of the tent.

• 35:22Speaker 01

  While she was sleeping?

• 35:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:24Speaker 01

  Oh, oh, God.

• 35:25Speaker 00

  So, um, yeah, yeah, so heavy.

• 35:29Speaker 01

  Did you, I mean, at this point, like this is obviously in a short amount of time, relatively speaking, for your life at that point.

• 35:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:37Speaker 01

  That's a lot of tragedy.

• 35:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:40Speaker 01

  And like scary things and near misses and.

• 35:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:44Speaker 01

  Okay, maybe you're not thinking it, but maybe your parents are thinking like, you know, like this is too, this is too much, like how does it get better from here? Like, how do we, are you thinking that?

• 35:57Speaker 00

  Well, to put it, perhaps in the light of mum and dad, they've always had a very strong faith. Um, my, my father, upon me going into Sydney and, and becoming a chef and, and moving from home uh, at, at 17, I, well, 17, 18, I, I moved to, um, Sydney by myself, I was 17. And, um, at that point, um, I think my sister was well and truly at uni and studying and stuff. But then dad decided to stop being a tax agent and accountant, sold his business and then decided to become a minister in the Anglican Church. So now he's a minister.

• 36:36Speaker 00

  Uh, and I think perhaps for, for mum, she, she said to me, um, when I was at the hospital, like in intensive care, there was a night where she felt there was, somebody came into the room, uh, a presence of a figure came into the room and told her that everything's gonna be fine and your son's gonna be fine. Um, and, uh, from, from that point, I feel like mum, she, she managed to keep a really firm grip on the fact that everything will be fine. And, um, dad, dad was the same.

• 37:17Speaker 00

  He was, you know, focused on making sure that, you know, business was fine and, you know, kids are fine and we're, we're okay. At no point in time did the wheels ever feel like it came off. There was, there was always stability and there always felt like there was a clean, safe and happy home to go home to. Um, and at no point in time did mum and dad come home from work. They were at home, like the business was at home.

• 37:41Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 37:41Speaker 00

  So mum would pick me up from school, she'd drive me to the hospital, she'd sit with me for however long and have chemo, she'd drive me home before taking me back to school to make sure that she cooked me lunch. She'd cook me lunch, whether it was a sandwich or whatever, she'd just make sure that I was fed and then drive me back to school, where then she'd do one last lap around the bank, the post office and any other trips she had to do, and then come back, pick my sister and I up and then get us home. And that, that was the rhythms of the week. And so, yeah, all heavy and, and moments of feeling like everything's doom and gloom. But at no point did I ever lose any kind of, uh, any, any feeling that it's all gonna be fine.

• 38:25Speaker 00

  Like, I genuinely was like, it's gonna be fine, like, keep going.

• 38:32Speaker 01

  As an, as an adult of you, because that's incredible for them to, what an amazing, I see your, I, I totally understand that your answer is there, grateful for them as part of this story when you first started, hearing the way that they, um, sort of shepherd and guided you through this awful time.

• 38:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:54Speaker 01

  But as an adult, have you ever had a conversation with them about any moments of doubt or fear that crept in for them that it might not work out?

• 39:04Speaker 00

  No, I don't think so. Only for mum not really enjoying talking about it that much. I know she'll probably be either avoiding listening this or um or listening to it with, you know, I don't, we don't need to go through that again, you know what I mean? But, you know, they're super proud of me for for the work that I've done. But also, you know, they love that I've got, you know, beautiful family and and there's a focus in life. And there's a, there's, you know, we're off, you know what I mean? Like, it's all good. And it's not for just like, all right, cut him out, see you later, you go do you. Although I do feel like I do, I I I need to be more communicative in terms of how I.

• 39:48Speaker 00

  When you decide to be a cook, when you're when you're fifteen, when you decide to leave home after finishing your ten and you go off and you you cook, you kind of decide to go all in. Like, it's a fairly obsessive career choice and and a fairly like you. You either let it completely consume you or or you choose what you wanna do within it. And for me, it was just complete consumption, like just OTT, like anything to do with it, I want it. And you want me there early? Cool, I'll be there. You know, I can remember working for Luke Mangan and he came over and said, do you wanna, do you wanna organise a few of the things for my my morning show on on Tuesdays at Channel Nine? And I'm like, absolutely. Like, what time do I need to be at work? Five o'clock?

• 40:29Speaker 00

  Okay, great. And I'll organise all those ingredients for you, make it all look like the TV show. Here's all the little bowls. Right. And that meant that then I could have twenty minutes in the car with Luke, driving from the city to Crowsnest, so that I could ask him, oh, how's Japan going? And what are you doing over there? And how how can you be in the air with Virgin and then be on the on the boats with P and O? But here with us at Glass, like, how does that work? You know, you just like, you've got this unfiltered conversation where if you're able to, like, if you tried to do that in the kitchen, like, it wouldn't, I'd be like, get your head down, like, let's go. Like, we've got people coming and it's busy. Whereas that was kind of like this access of, you know, hearing the stories. And that was really, that was amazing.

• 41:13Speaker 03

  Like, it sounds like, and I don't know if the two are connected, but wanting to go back to school so quickly after the surgery and after being in hospital, after being in intensive care. I mean, I can only imagine, I mean, you just described that it is the case, but I can only imagine the drive and ambition that you naturally have. I feel like anyone who's done it, who's innovated anything in any way or had any sort of success in an industry, industry particularly like yours, has to be like, have this blind ambition to just at all costs do it and get it done. But do you, like, was that a, was that exist, did that exist in you from like a young age?

• 41:56Speaker 00

  I think the facing of your own mortality acts as an accelerant towards everything that you do. Um, and and that's probably, you know, I don't know. You you don't wanna say that it's the reason or the excuse for doing things in life, but, you know, I met, I met my wife Julie when I was nineteen and she was eighteen and we were both in a cooking competition together. And she was a first year apprentice, I was a fourth year apprentice, we both won. And then at the end of it, I asked her to have dinner with me, we had dinner. And then the next day after that, there was no day after that for probably the best part of a year that we were apart. Every single day we're together. And then three years later, we got married, you know?

• 42:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 42:37Speaker 00

  And so, you know, we got married when I was twenty two. You know, we had my my son, uh, when we were twenty, I I was twenty five. Um, and we opened St. Peter when I was twenty six, like, there's just.

• 42:50Speaker 03

  Don't waste time.

• 42:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, and but but also at no point in time was I like, come on, let's go. Like, we were partnership, like, best mates, like, and like, you know, it's it's a really important partnership, like, cause we we love what we do, love having the family and and we make decisions because they they make us feel good and and that's what fills us up. But um, I I think playing sport as a kid, there there's a certain drive and motivation of like wanting to train to then get a better result on the weekend. There's that, there was, that's always been a very distinct characteristic of me personally. And I think that became then how I managed to navigate the completion of chemotherapy, the beginning of puberty.

• 43:36Speaker 00

  And the, you know, we need to give your son some steroids to get him back to weight and back to size cause he's kind of, you know, a shell of a kid. And then that balloons the other way. And so then you're a fat kid and then you're just kind of like, well, what are you gonna do about it? And I can remember mum just saying, well, you're probably gonna need to do a bit of roadwork. And I'm like, well, okay, what does that look like?

• 43:58Speaker 03

  What's roadwork?

• 43:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, just get out on the on the track and run, you know what I mean? So, yeah.

• 44:04Speaker 03

  When we had um Nathan Cavalieri on, um, he spoke about his experience of having childhood cancer and that there was a lingering for him, there was a sort of, I guess, not to paraphrase him, but my sort of um interpretation of it was this sort of delayed aftershock that he experienced later of a sort of anxiety from living in this state for a long period of time of not knowing whether he was gonna be okay or whether he was gonna survive.

• 44:34Speaker 00

  Interesting, yeah.

• 44:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, I wondered if you've had any experience where there's been a sort of delayed kind of trauma or grief or.

• 44:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think maybe two occasions sparked to mind quickly is the when I was at the hospital and I got out of intensive care and I was in this ward with mum where she'd now gotten a slightly comfier chair to sleep in. And I was in a slightly comfier bed and, you know, things things were starting to get a little bit better. She was able to take me out in the wheelchair to kind of go to a coffee shop and go see outside for a little bit, and that was nice. And then I remember the doctors coming and go, oh, we've we've got you a a spot now down at Ronald McDonald's house. So you'll be able to stay the night down there, mum will have her own bed, you'll be, you know, a lot more comfortable. And so we got down there and I just remember I freaked out. I I'm like, I'm too far away from the doctors, I can't do this, I've got to go back.

• 45:26Speaker 00

  So mum missed out on the bed and back we go. So there was that. And then I can remember when we opened the restaurant in Singapore. Um, I was over there and it was after, like, it was a good few months after opening, but I I was in the hotel room. And I remember getting sent the message saying, oh, your your Australian story's on tonight, like, you should you should watch it. And I'm like, okay, you know, it's like the best part of, you know, twelve weeks worth of filming all consolidated into twenty eight minutes worth of content. I'm just like, wow, this is, let's see how this goes. And I watched it in my hotel room away from my family and I was a mess.

• 46:08Speaker 00

  I was in tears. I I I had to turn it off close to the end, it was just, it was so much. Cause there were snippets in there from when I was a kid and stuff. And at the same time, like, my kids are little and, you know, you start thinking about everything and it's just, yeah, that was, that was a time where I was kind of look back and thought, well, I was pretty lucky. And also then mum and dad are pretty amazing.

• 46:32Speaker 03

  So, yeah, I wanted to ask you about that actually, because I I remember hearing from a psychologist once, um, when I was thinking about something that I went through when I was younger. Like, when your kids get to that age, it's gonna be really hard for you to.

• 46:47Speaker 00

  Totally.

• 46:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 46:48Speaker 00

  I remember being worried on my son's eighth birthday, like, for best part of a week, either side of it.

• 46:54Speaker 03

  Yeah. Is it really hard to be a a present? To not let that fear overtake your parenting at points?

• 47:04Speaker 00

  No, yeah, I I don't let that, I I don't think about that at all, to be honest. It was it was only specifically on my son's eighth birthday that I really was like, oh, my goodness. Like, this is what I looked like or what I was, I was having a great time, playing with my mates, going to school. Everything's great, cool sisters, like, you know, play PlayStation, hang out, like, all this sort of stuff. And it's um, yeah, and then all of a sudden, then it all changes. Um, and and so there was that, there was that feeling, um, definitely. Um, but even watching the footage of when I was that age, I could, I could see, yeah, I could, I could see his eyes as well, and that was messed up, like that.

• 47:47Speaker 00

  So, but I I don't, I don't think about those things, not for suppressing it, but just for, I don't fear it, I don't, I don't have discomfort with it, I'm completely resolved in it all. I don't worry about necessarily, I don't, I don't think about my health or like, I hope everything's okay. Like, it's, you know, what, twenty, I don't know, it's a long time ago, thirty, thirty years ago.

• 48:10Speaker 03

  Oh, that's wonderful.

• 48:12Speaker 03

  It's a tough thing to have to leave your childhood a bit early.

• 48:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 48:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, definitely. And I think the things that helped you maintain a state of normality or a feeling of being a child with camp quality, where you're able to go off to camp and have great times, you ride a horse and, you know, do claywork and go, you know, on a hot air balloon, like do all these amazing things that you, as a normal kid, you probably wouldn't even get to do, but then, you know, you're fortunate then to get to go and do. And then as well, then Starlight Foundation give you a wish and they come, they literally come and knock on your door and say, your son's able to have a wish, what would you like to do? And at that point in time, there was no parameters around what that wish looked like. And so I feel like I really-

• 49:03Speaker 01

  I wanna be on Kitchen Nightmares.

• 49:04Speaker 00

  Yeah. I feel like I rinsed their budget at that time and I apologize. And that's why I've continued to do the Starlight Five Chefs dinners every year to raise money. So I can pay all the money back.

• 49:16Speaker 01

  What was the wish?

• 49:17Speaker 00

  So the wish was that I wanted to go and watch the Chicago Bulls play basketball. So-

• 49:23Speaker 01

  So what year was that?

• 49:24Speaker 00

  Ninety-seven.

• 49:25Speaker 01

  Oh, no.

• 49:26Speaker 00

  Was it? Yeah, yeah. So-

• 49:28Speaker 01

  So that was Michael Jordan.

• 49:30Speaker 00

  Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Dennis Rodman, Steve Kerr, Ron Harper. Yeah, like ridiculous. And we went there-

• 49:39Speaker 01

  Bill Paxton.

• 49:40Speaker 00

  Bill Paxton, yeah. Went there the week before Christmas. We got flown over. I remember like, again, crazy times. I remember getting taken up to the front of the plane and get to have a look at the cockpit while the pilots are flying. And then, which is ridiculous.

• 49:57Speaker 01

  Could have flown her for a bit as well back then.

• 50:00Speaker 00

  And then getting off the plane and then the limo driver comes and picks you up and then drives you to the Ritz Carlton. And then, you know, you're there with the family and, you know, we got to see Chicago snowing, you know, Christmas Eve, Miami Heat versus Chicago Bulls. You get there, here's the jersey, here's the hat, here's, you know, all the merch and stuff. Let's take you down courtside and we'll see them warm up.

• 50:22Speaker 01

  So Alonzo Mourning as well for Miami.

• 50:24Speaker 02

  Would have been Harold Minor, I reckon.

• 50:26Speaker 01

  Harold Minor, maybe.

• 50:26Speaker 00

  I can't remember the names. That was not in my concern at all.

• 50:31Speaker 01

  You didn't say to Starlight, I'd love to go and see the Miami Heat play.

• 50:35Speaker 02

  Who are the Bulls playing against before we go on the plane?

• 50:38Speaker 00

  Is Barclay gonna be there? No, so I, yeah, so we got there, come courtside, we'll have a look. And then Luke Longley's there waiting on the courtside and he goes, you must be Josh. And, you know, this towering seven foot Aussie giant that was just the most lovely, sweet, kind, awesome guy you've ever met. And I remember just, I was literally up to his belly button and I just remember looking up. I'm like, my God, this is awesome.

• 51:05Speaker 01

  Did you meet Michael?

• 51:06Speaker 00

  No. No, we, like proximity, sure, but he, like, I mean, that, that limited access to him, there was like a certain charity that he was very attached to that went and did. But to become so close to it, that was enough.

• 51:23Speaker 01

  That's amazing.

• 51:24Speaker 00

  And for Luke to be so, so kind and generous as well. And then we went and sat in our seats and I can remember my dad took a photo on his very new Canon camera that he was very proud of at the time. And he got a shot of Jordan at the free throw and then they ended up winning by 12. And I can remember NBC or whoever it was, they came over to me mid-game. And they're like, oh, you must be Josh from, you know, Sydney and you're here with the Starlight and, you know, how do you feel? And so like I'm doing this interview, I'm like, yeah, yeah, this is great and everything's awesome. And then I get home and then we turn the TV on, it's quite late and then there I am. And for like the way American TV, it's like for the next 24 hours, I'm like looping on their

• 52:08Speaker 00

  like sports kind of channels. I'm like, that's pretty cool. And given that was Christmas Eve as well, we got back and there was a tree like in the room. And I'm like, wow, that's amazing. And then we said to mum and dad on, like before we went to bed, I'm like, do you reckon Santa's gonna find me? And they're like, oh, he'll be waiting for us when we get home.

• 52:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:26Speaker 00

  And wake up, presents, like unbelievable. And that was the year, I think the Toy Story came out. So it was like, you got your Buzz Lightyear doll. It was like, it was crazy.

• 52:36Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 52:37Speaker 00

  And it snowed and it was just one of those experiences where you're like, I never had, like in your brain, I never was sick and this is the greatest day ever. And I don't feel sick at all and everything's great. And even though I've got no hair and, and things are still pretty rough ahead of us, this is awesome. And so I'm completely indebted and always will be very, yeah, I'll do anything for Starlight.

• 53:01Speaker 01

  That's proper magic, isn't it?

• 53:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's unbelievable.

• 53:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:05Speaker 02

  Just to hear that description of how it made you feel.

• 53:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:08Speaker 02

  And forget about, cause I've heard about Starlight Foundation, know what they do, but I've never actually thought about properly, like what it actually means to a child going through, what you're going through.

• 53:17Speaker 00

  And I was very fortunate to, to do a lot of these dinners now every year, this annual kind of Starlight dinner. And you're up, you're up on stage and, you know, you're trying to auction some prizes and stuff. And then one year they sort of said, Josh, can you tell your story to everybody? So I recounted the whole thing and yeah, everybody was like, wow, it's amazing. Like full circle thing and-

• 53:36Speaker 02

  Just don't tell them how we flew to Chicago, cause we don't quite do that anymore.

• 53:39Speaker 00

  Well, this is like now, it's like, yeah, yeah. So Johnny's going to Movie World and I'm like, fuck. Well, really sorry guys.

• 53:49Speaker 01

  This year it's just gonna be a Tupac super house. Yeah. There's one, there's one like thought I had when I was looking through your, your book, your new book, but also just thinking about just your whole, the philosophy that you have, using the whole fish. And it's just, and I, I might be like reading into this too much and there might not be a connection, but there was something really nice about it. It's sort of like a metaphor for life in terms of making the most of every part of your life. There is sort of a nice parallel there in terms of like going through what you went through as, as an eight-year-old and how that's clearly, you know, like you say, it kind of supercharges basically your want to do things quickly and you don't wanna wait.

• 54:35Speaker 01

  And there's, there's something, there's an, there's some sort of cohesion with those two ideas. I don't know if you've ever thought about that.

• 54:41Speaker 00

  Yeah. I, I mean, I can remember, yeah, there's always been a feeling of impatience. And I remember being sat down by a gentleman named Simon Marney, who's a brilliant, brilliant journalist, but also communicator. He was on ABC Radio for a long time. But I remember he sat me down in a coffee shop and I was trying to talk to him about, oh, so I wanna go and work for this guy and, you know, this is what I'm gonna do. And then by the time I'm 24, I'm gonna have this and then 26 will be this. And then, you know, I was telling him year for year, what's gonna happen and how it's gonna go down. And he goes, Josh, just, it's not a sprint. You gotta learn how to be a marathon runner.

• 55:22Speaker 01

  And you were like, bullshit, watch this.

• 55:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, like, yeah, but it was, it was an interesting point in time when he said that. And I took it on board, of course, and, but there is that, that kind of parallel between using the entirety of something and, and making the most of every experience you get. Of course, I, I, I do think like that a lot. I think to me, the aesthetic that the book carries, the way that I put food together on a plate, the way that I think about food and fish and all that sort of stuff comes from just the romance of craftsmanship and doing things with your hands and doing something that didn't exist before and now it does.

• 56:06Speaker 00

  Like that, I love that. Like, and, you know, the, the breakdowns and the compositions of fish, like when you start with a whole fish and then you take it apart into every single thing that it could be and lay it out back together again like a puzzle.

• 56:21Speaker 01

  Well, there's literally in your new book, there's literally a fold out.

• 56:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:24Speaker 01

  Like it's like a centerfold. Like a centerfold where it's like, when it's closed, you see the full fish. And literally you've, it's photographed like a flat lay of all the, every single element.

• 56:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:36Speaker 01

  And it's quite incredible to see how much you can get out of what is just, what people do. Oh, that's just a fish.

• 56:42Speaker 00

  Yeah. That fish was nine kilos and it cost $600.

• 56:47Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 56:48Speaker 00

  And yeah, it cost a fortune. Like I'm of course adding the logistics into it and, you know, all of that. But then, yeah, if you, if you look at that, it's 300 bucks that might end up cast aside.

• 56:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:00Speaker 00

  And if perhaps you look at it in terms of restaurant value and, and you look in the old terms of how you would mark up something, it times four to kind of recover, you know, the labour and rent and all that sort of stuff. So you're looking at the potential of $2,400 worth of restaurant value within that single fish. But if you start with 300, then it's $1,200 worth of potential. And it's just, it's one of those things that I constantly think about. And a lot of the work that we've ever done at St Peter, whilst seemingly stems from a mindset and framework of ethics and sustainability and save the planet and save the oceans and all of that, which I'm a hundred percent all behind.

• 57:41Speaker 00

  But 100% from the very first moment of trying to start to work out what I could do with a fish was born from fear of the restaurant closing. And the kids being on the street, Julie leaving me, lose the house, business closes, the most hyperbolic, ridiculous things that you could possibly think of. They're all gonna happen if you cock this up.

• 58:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:04Speaker 00

  And so that was the engine that fueled the creativity. And I don't believe that you can have innovation and creativity without a problem. And for me, the solution wasn't to then buy cheaper fish or to remove people from the system. It was to look at what we have and make the very, very best of it and apply ourselves creatively, emotionally, intelligently to our, our-

• 58:36Speaker 00

  Our product and, and then from there be generous with, with how we, we share it in terms of how we, how we orientate it on the plate, how we, how we communicate it on social media and things. But as well, even if it's not perfect, share it because I believe in it and, and I care about it. Um, so yeah, if you're out there and you're toying with the idea of maybe starting something or thinking about, oh, I don't know whether I should, or it's pretty risky and I'm not sure. I'm not saying to go just shoot from the hip and give it a crack. Like there needs to be a bit of intelligence and thought behind it. But yeah, stop overthinking it. Like just if you believe in it, you're passionate about it and the desire is there to want to do it over and over and over and over again,

• 59:19Speaker 00

  even if it, you know, even if it drives you a little bit loopy.

• 59:24Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 59:24Speaker 00

  Then it's worth doing. Like you boys show up and do this podcast, even on days where you probably maybe would maybe do something else perhaps.

• 59:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:33Speaker 00

  You know, but you put the reps in. Now all of a sudden you've got a body of work that is, is really valuable to people and people's lives. And when you're sitting in a very small little studio and you're just, you know, having a yarn.

• 59:46Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 59:47Speaker 00

  Like this is a, this is an important conversation that's happening in somebody's car right now. And, and you're, the voices that you have in your head and, and your, yeah, your self chat changes upon hearing and reflecting of what this is. So yeah, I think it's interesting.

• 1:00:08Speaker 02

  On your list of things to do was there create the most beautiful book. I've got it here.

• 1:00:14Speaker 01

  This book is.

• 1:00:15Speaker 00

  Unbelievable.

• 1:00:15Speaker 01

  So this is your new book, Josh.

• 1:00:18Speaker 02

  Even if you're like, that is, where's the camera? That one there?

• 1:00:22Speaker 00

  There's about 18.

• 1:00:26Speaker 02

  That's, that's it. It's the most beautiful book you'll ever see. If you're listening and not, um, do just get onto YouTube, watch it on YouTube. Cause it's, it's incredible.

• 1:00:35Speaker 00

  I mean, even like you guys got this, I think yesterday you said, and then I only got it two days ago. So I'm still looking at like, oh, it's pretty good.

• 1:00:42Speaker 01

  It was in here and Josh, our Josh, Josh, Josh looked at it and Josh, he said, surely we can't have this for free. It seems too good.

• 1:00:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:51Speaker 02

  So what is the book? Just.

• 1:00:52Speaker 00

  So St Peter, chapter and verse, um, published again by Hardy Grant. So Hardy Grant backed me in the very beginning when I, I sat through a couple of, uh, meetings for like, I think it was 2018. I was like, oh, I kind of think it'd be cool to write a book. Cause I think there's a lot of things that we're doing at the restaurant that I'd like to put into pages and, and just kind of put a stamp on and go, we did that and that was great. And now I can do the next thing.

• 1:01:18Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:01:19Speaker 00

  And even, and I, I saw the whole fish cookbook as this perfect imperfect product that I wrote on my phone in eight weeks. And I, I just, I literally, I was on my mobile like for eight weeks and I, I got it done. And, and you know, that was born from earlier in the year, sitting through different publishing houses, interviews, kind of going, okay. So what do you want to do? And you're like, well, I want to write a book. And what's the book about fish? You know, like I'm, I've got a restaurant in St Peter and I want to do this. Okay. Well, fish books don't sell that well. And you're just kind of like, okay, sure. Um, and then they're like, oh, but maybe we could do it like, and I'm like, okay, yep. And so you're listening to all this stuff and you're like, mm, that's, that's not

• 1:02:02Speaker 00

  it. And then finally I meet this wonderful woman, Jane Wilson, who, you know, she, her background in food journalism and stuff. So she, she kind of gets it. And she was really, she was great to talk to creatively. And, and you know, she said, we hear you want to write a book. Um, we're all behind you. You do you, we'll do us. And I'm like, okay, great. Um, I said, so she goes, when do you want it out? And I said, September 1. And then they're like, how much of it have you written? And I said, I haven't started. And then they're like, well, you know, you know, a book's like, it's got, it's quite big and it's got recipes and photos. I'm like, yeah, yeah.

• 1:02:35Speaker 01

  I've seen them in the shops.

• 1:02:37Speaker 00

  And so then they say, I said, well, when's the deadline? And they said, well, for a book like that and coming out, it'd need to be with us January 14. I say, great. No worries. And this was kind of mid October. And, um, you know, Julie was pregnant with our third child at that time and, um, summer and busy. And so then I, I literally, the reason for doing it on the phone was one, because I didn't have a laptop, but also because I was just, I was literally any opportunity. I was like, I'd get out of the car and I'd be at the back of the restaurant. I'd be like typing on my way up the stairs into the restaurant. All right. Start work, working. And then I'd be in the cool room trying to write the menu, but also go, oh yeah, I forgot about that. I'll write that in. And then at the end of the night, you'd be up there punching that in. And then, yeah.

• 1:03:19Speaker 02

  James Beard Award.

• 1:03:21Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. And, but this book is really, it's not the whole fish. It's not take one fish. And it's not fish butchery that I wrote previously. This book is meant to be his 10 years between covers and all the hard things, all the great things. Uh, and, and it's not trying to be a book specifically written just for hospitality professionals. This is meant to be so that you boys can pick it up and go, huh, like that's, that's interesting from a leadership management point of view.

• 1:03:54Speaker 01

  It's like the whole picture of running a business. And yeah, interesting. Oh, amazing.

• 1:03:58Speaker 00

  So it's, there is a very heavy narrative to it in the sense that I, I really wanted to unpack everything that we did and how we went about it and some decisions and hard decisions that we had to make. But it's, it's meant to show what we do on a day to day and, and all of the people and all the efforts they go to on a daily basis to, to do something that hopefully is of value to, to people that, that come to the restaurant. Yeah.

• 1:04:23Speaker 01

  I cannot wait to come to your restaurant.

• 1:04:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04:26Speaker 01

  Or one of them.

• 1:04:28Speaker 00

  Yeah. No, we've got some rooms there now. So you can sleep with the fishes upstairs and.

• 1:04:32Speaker 01

  Oh, true. It's a little hotel.

• 1:04:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04:34Speaker 01

  Gee.

• 1:04:35Speaker 00

  That's great.

• 1:04:35Speaker 01

  That's where we're staying. And all the sheets are made of fish eye.

• 1:04:38Speaker 00

  That's it. And, um, the fish fat soap that you wash your hands with and the fish fat candles.

• 1:04:42Speaker 01

  Actually.

• 1:04:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, actually. Yeah. No, no fish eye linen, but yeah, that's, but, but some of the, we, we did manage to get a lot of those nice things that we'd worked out from a culinary perspective. We'd managed to modify that and drop it into the room. So fish bone coffee mugs and, um, you know, fish fat soap is, is pretty fun.

• 1:05:02Speaker 01

  Uh, Josh, thank you so much. It's such, it's, I mean, I'd met you once before, but it's such a pleasure to hang out with you. I hope we've become very good friends.

• 1:05:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:11Speaker 02

  Sign off.

• 1:05:14Speaker 01

  No, I won't settle for just friends. Just very good friends.

• 1:05:17Speaker 00

  First time.

• 1:05:20Speaker 00

  No, I appreciate it. Really, um, what this podcast is brilliant. And, and I mean, there's so many people that listen to this in, in different, you know, periods of, I don't know, whatever their life is showing them right now, uh, whether it's good or bad. Um, this is a nice escape or it gives insight into maybe helping them solve problems for themselves. Uh, and hopefully I've been able to give some insight into my world and, and, um, yeah, I think long story short, you just enjoy yourself. Try to, try to relax. Take, don't, just take a second. It's fine.

• 1:05:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:54Speaker 00

  Like take a deep breath and you can keep going. You don't, don't need to, uh, catastrophize everything.

• 1:06:00Speaker 01

  Love that.

• 1:06:01Speaker 02

  Beautiful. Thank you, mate.

• 1:06:02Speaker 00

  What a great end.

• 1:06:02Speaker 01

  Pleasure.

• 1:06:03Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 1:06:05Speaker 03

  If you enjoyed this episode and want a little more, you might enjoy our subscriber only apps available on Patreon and Apple Podcasts. If you want a little more, but don't want to pay anymore, then you can join our newsletter at theimperfects.com.au. And while you're there, you'll be able to see the names and faces of all the incredible people who help make this show. A show made on the lands of the Wurundjeri Wurundjeri people, and we pay our respects to elders past and present. The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you're struggling, please see a healthcare professional or call Lifeline on 13 11 14.