Sex for Normal People with Ita O'Brien

Sex is sometimes a taboo topic. Not today! Intimacy expert Ita O’Brien tells us all about the new normal in the bedroom, and how she’s introduced it to Hollywood. 💌Join 9,000+ people getting our takeaways and favourite moments from this episode in our weekly newsletter - http://bit.ly/45NyQDy In 2017, Ita O’Brien changed how Hollywood approached sex scenes when she pioneered intimacy co-ordination on the hit Netflix show, Sex Education, by introducing the framework, “Intimacy On Set Guidelines”. She went on to on productions for Netflix, BBC, HBO, Hulu, Amazon, including Sex Education and Normal People, founding her own company Intimacy on Set. And now she’s here. Ita chats with the guys about what sex scenes were like before Intimacy Co-ordination, and all the lies movies taught us about sex. She explains the mysterious orgasm gap, why consent is the foundation of all intimacy, and maybe most importantly of all… the male and female anatomy of arousal! That bit’s at the 16min mark if you’re really in a hurry. 😉 00:00 – Meet Ita O'Brien, the World's First Intimacy Coordinator 01:32 – Inside Her Work on Normal People, I May Destroy You & Sex Education 04:17 – What Intimacy Actually Means (It's Not Just Sex) 07:34 – The Untold Story of the First-Ever Intimacy Coordinator Job 09:35 – What Sex Scenes Were Like Before Consent Guidelines Existed 12:27 – Why On-Screen Intimacy Shapes How We See Ourselves 14:33 – The Hidden Lie Movies Taught Us About Sex 16:00 – The Male Anatomy of Arousal, Explained 18:33 – The Female Anatomy of Arousal, Explained 23:17 – Why Desire Fades in Long-Term Relationships 25:59 – The Power of Touch (and Why We're Losing It) 30:39 – How Screens Are Rewiring Kids' Ability to Connect 34:08 – The Truth About the Orgasm Gap 40:30 – Why Consent Is the Foundation of All Intimacy 43:10 – Filming the Iconic Birth Scene in We Live in Time 49:52 – How to Talk to Kids About Consent and Bodies 52:24 – "Consent Is Sexy": A Call to Writers and Filmmakers 54:33 – Sex, Menopause and Intimacy at Every Life Stage 📖Things to read Intimacy: A Field Guide to Finding Connection and Feeling Your Deep Desires by Ita O’Brien - https://www.penguin.com.au/books/intimacy-9781529954043 📺 Things to watch Sex Education (Netflix) - https://www.netflix.com/title/80197526 Normal People (BBC/Hulu) - https://www.hulu.com/series/normal-people I May Destroy You (BBC/HBO) - https://www.hbo.com/i-may-destroy-you Catastrophe - https://www.amazon.com/Catastrophe-Season-1/dp/B00YGB8UYK We Live in Time (Film4/A24) - https://www.a24films.com/films/we-live-in-time 🫖Imperfects episodes mentioned on this episode Esther Perel — Let's Be Better Lovers - https://open.spotify.com/episode/1BantQso5Ef3xPn4PWNG2I 🩷To host your own Vulnerabilitea House, purchase here - http://bit.ly/4lyuuWz 🩵To purchase our journal (or your novel) My Imperfect Life, click here - http://bit.ly/4lyuuW 🩵To join our subscriber community, A Little More Imperfects, follow this link - http://bit.ly/4mqunxu 🩷 AND you can subscribe to A Little More Imperfects through Apple Podcast http://apple.co/theimperfects The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you’re struggling, please see a healthcare professional, or call lifeline on 13 11 14. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Let's talk about sex.

• 0:02Speaker 01

  There's a picture here of the clitoris and the penis. Golly gosh, they look similar.

• 0:06Speaker 00

  This is really fun.

• 0:09Speaker 00

  With Hollywood's go to intimacy coordinator, Eda O'Brien.

• 0:13Speaker 02

  I truly believe that our art reflects humanity back to itself.

• 0:18Speaker 00

  And Eda noticed that Hollywood's been teaching us about sex and intimacy all wrong.

• 0:22Speaker 02

  When you're seeing after like 30 seconds of kissing and suddenly taking clothes off and then you're into penetration, that makes people think, oh, that's how I should do it.

• 0:29Speaker 00

  So Eda changed the industry forever.

• 0:32Speaker 02

  The very first production that called me in was sex education.

• 0:36Speaker 00

  Now she's here to give us some much welcomed sex education.

• 0:40Speaker 02

  From the journey to erection, you then actually have a plateau, which I didn't know that that's natural and normal. It's a falling off of the erection.

• 0:48Speaker 00

  I didn't know that. I didn't know that either.

• 0:49Speaker 02

  And then the erection comes more fully again through to orgasm and then to the resolution phase.

• 0:55Speaker 00

  Obviously like communication's important, but it's not important. We don't need to communicate every single phase. Honey, the resolution's happening.

• 1:03Speaker 01

  I've just dropped off a little bit here, but don't worry, I will be back.

• 1:05Speaker 00

  Plateau, plateau, plateau. Don't freak out. It's just plateau.

• 1:14Speaker 00

  Every now and again, we have these episodes where we're about to have this conversation with a guest and I've got a, you know, there's a lot of things that we have planned to talk about and we know the topic we want to talk about. We want to talk about intimacy. But I think because of the subject matter, I go into a chat like this with a little bit nervous because I'm not sure what might come up or what, I mean, I don't mean that literally. But, um, but I didn't, I didn't plan for that to happen. Um, I don't know what might come up. And so I don't know what stories I might tell or what might happen. So.

• 1:49Speaker 01

  Have we said who our guest is?

• 1:50Speaker 00

  Not yet.

• 1:50Speaker 01

  I think we should. We're joined by Eda O'Brien, which is such a thrill. Welcome, Eda. I'm all the way over in London. So very excited to be chatting with you.

• 1:59Speaker 02

  I'm absolutely delighted to be chatting with you and I'm really excited for this conversation.

• 2:04Speaker 01

  For those people who don't know Ed's work. So today's guest pioneered a job that didn't exist a decade ago. She's helped choreograph some of the most intimate moments ever put on screen. From the beautifully vulnerable relationship in Normal People to the confronting exploration of consent in I May Destroy You, to the frank honesty of sex education. Eda O'Brien is an intimacy coordinator. Like a stunt coordinator who choreographs fight scenes, Eda choreographs the intimate scenes we see in movies and TV shows. She also pioneered the field and created the intimacy on set guidelines where previously there were none. Today, her work has helped reshape the way the world's biggest film and television productions

• 2:43Speaker 01

  approach intimacy. But I think what fascinates us for this conversation, Eda, isn't just what you've taught actors, but it's might actually be what you've learnt from your work professionally, how it relates to us in our relationships, intimacy, sex and connection. So yeah, we're very excited.

• 3:02Speaker 02

  Wonderful. Yes. I'm really looking forward to, um, yeah, to opening out. And um, I just have to say, um, I really honour you guys and what you share in the world. You know, because there's three men and what you explore and the vulnerability that you bring is such a fabulous antidote to this idea of toxic masculinity. And you are doing something that is so wonderful. And that's what I'm so delighted to be having this conversation with you three.

• 3:26Speaker 00

  Oh, wow. That's lovely. Thank you, Eda. I mean, like vulnerability is such a big part of what you do. Do you want to just talk a little bit about how the importance of vulnerability in what you do?

• 3:36Speaker 02

  Well, yes. You know, what the intimacy guidelines have brought to the industry is this flip. And it really was before the expectation of you're an actor, you know, we expect you to be able to be naked, to perform a new form of intimate content, to be touched anywhere because that's your job and that's what you should do. And if you say no in any way, shape or form, then you're considered a troublemaker, a diva. And truly, truly, before the intimacy on set guidelines, people absolutely lost their jobs if they did try to call their boundaries in any way. And the flip is going actually saying to the industry, if you want your actor to be able to show up and actually serve character and create the best physical story in this intimate content, the best way you can do that is making sure that they

• 4:18Speaker 02

  are personally listened to and heard so that they feel empowered and autonomous. And then, and, and then you seek consent. It's absolutely akin to stunt coordination or to a good dance. You know, a stunt coordinator is going to come along and go, okay, the character runs along the roofs, jumps roof to roof and does a somersault. And the actor might go, I'm really happy for that character storytelling, but I'm afraid of heights and I can't do somersaults. And they're going, fine, we'll get a stunt double in. So that kind of normality of the professional journey through how to create a really good stunt or fight is just exactly the same as what we're bringing into the industry regarding intimate content. And again, the idea of consent, your yes is your yes, your no is your no, and a place

• 5:01Speaker 02

  of maybe is also a no. And that consent is continuous, you know, something that was a yes can become a no, something that wasn't, was a no, might become a yes. So you go, actually, now that I see the choreography, I'm really happy that no has become a yes. And then also, if you listen to your boundaries, if you listen to your requirements, that's a vulnerable place to be. That undone place of listening to yourself and trusting and knowing that you can feel into your vulnerability, be able to call those requirements, that that will be listened to and heard, to understand your no is a gift. Because once you, we know that we trust that you are really listening to yourself and able to offer your no, then then we trust that we can work freely with your freely given yes.

• 5:46Speaker 00

  So well said. Yep.

• 5:48Speaker 01

  So before we get right into it today, what, what's your definition of intimacy? And also, how do you describe the role of an intimacy coordinator?

• 5:59Speaker 02

  It was lovely that you asked that. So this is, as an intimacy coordinator, of course, we're going to be dealing with the scenes that involve simulated sexual content. But also we're looking at the very beginning, any time that it's just a kiss. And people say, oh, it's just a kiss. But actually it's never just a kiss. A kiss actually lip to lip is as much, if not more intimate for two actors to portray than a full on simulated sex scene. So intimate content. And then of course, any time there's nudity, if there's a bath, if there's a shower, parent child connection, having play so that you can develop that kind of familial intimacy of an adult actor with a child actor. And then any time

• 6:39Speaker 02

  that there's medical procedures. So for example, there's an operation or childbirth is a biggie where it's incredible vulnerability. And of course, we're working then not just with the actor playing the person in childbirth, but also the person playing the midwife or the doctor. So it's quite all encompassing.

• 6:59Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 6:59Speaker 02

  And then intimacy for ourselves has all those qualities and aspects of it, how we, how we talk to each other, our intellectual intimacy, how we might spar off each other, what we experience together, eating a meal together, going for a walk in the woods together, as well as our physical intimacy, hugs, touch, massage, and then obviously into our sexual intimacy. And I think it's really beautiful to, to really have that whole rainbow of understanding. We can nurture our intimacy as a whole in all those different ways.

• 7:30Speaker 00

  It's so interesting that it's, because I think most people just assume intimacy is always romantic or sexual.

• 7:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:37Speaker 00

  But it's, but I guess you can have, you know, I can have an intimate moment with my best mate, you know, which is just like, it's a very kind of like, um, uh, raw, emotional, sensitive moment, which, which is, which is intimate, but it's, but it's sort of like not what we usually think of as intimate.

• 7:57Speaker 01

  I feel like I, for many years, when you'd see a sex scene on TV, I'd often think, how is that? Like, have they just, have they just said to them, okay, just pretend to have sex and we'll film, we'll all stand around watching and we'll film you do that? What a ridiculously like vulnerable thing that is for someone to do.

• 8:17Speaker 00

  Is that what, is that what 13 year old Hugh was thinking, watching a sex scene?

• 8:22Speaker 01

  Well, this is ridiculous.

• 8:27Speaker 00

  I don't know about this. We're going to fix this in the industry somehow.

• 8:31Speaker 01

  No, but I bet my question for you is, when you first started doing this work, I'm just, I'm so curious to know, the first set you're on and you're there, this is a completely new role. So there's directors who have not worked with someone like you before. It's not a job. You're coming in and you're saying, okay, so this scene, I'm actually going to talk to the actors about consent and what this is going to look and feel like, what they're comfortable with. Was it, was it a really tough scenario to be in? Or was everyone open to, to this is what it should be like?

• 9:05Speaker 02

  So actually, the very first production that called me in was Sex Education.

• 9:11Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 9:12Speaker 00

  Oh, the show, wow.

• 9:13Speaker 02

  And in that very first conversation with John Jennings and Ben Taylor, so Ben Taylor was director and John Jennings producer, you know, I said, look, I've developed this work since 2015 in drama schools, been teaching workshops in the industry, but this is the first time that I'll actually be, you know, implementing it in the flow of a TV series. And we need to work together to work out how it works. But they absolutely knew that the, the quality of the content needed, you know, really clear choreography in order to be able to really serve the absolutely brilliant writing. And actually, what we did was a groundbreaking day, 25th of April, 2018. I said, the best thing we can do is actually, I deliver the workshop day that I do. And so that's what happened. And I

• 9:55Speaker 02

  always ask, when's it been done well? When's it not been done well? And what do you want to get out of the work? So we had that open conversation. And then I'd picked out particular scenes that, that were sort of key scenes. And that's what we did in the afternoon. We actually choreographed those scenes. But all of those actors bounded out of that day, really understanding the process of the intimacy guidelines, knowing how they created those scenes. And everybody was on board. As opposed to, just as you had said, how it was in the past, which was none of those conversations, none of that prep and that confusion. And this is where in the, in the past, it was like, oh, well, if these two actors are gonna look like they, you know, really fancy each other as characters,

• 10:38Speaker 02

  and they've got to really bring that chemistry, it's got to be real. That's mad. These are characters. You don't expect them to really hate each other if they're, if they're doing a fight. You know they're acting. So, so that was the joy, just having the work understood. And then it means you can all get on having a really good process. And everybody feel that they're all focused on creating this beautiful, physical storytelling in a creative and professional way.

• 11:06Speaker 00

  I, I did a, like a small independent film. And I was in a scene where it's, it's like the morning after a big party. And the scene is I've woken up and I'm in bed with a woman and that she's topless and the sheets are down below her breasts. And, and there was no real discussion about, like in the lead up to this scene, it was just like, oh, well, that's, that's the scene. And I don't know the right term, but she was like an exotic dancer or whatever you might. So she was extremely comfortable without her top on, extremely comfortable. So I felt fine about that. Like she felt absolutely fine. She was walking around without her top on. That was all good. But there's obviously

• 11:48Speaker 00

  a crew, like you're, we're in the bedroom of an apartment. And then there's like this crew and they were good enough that they said like, okay, like only stay in here if you absolutely have to be in here. And the scene was, is that like, I forget what I said, but I have to kiss her. Like I have like this full make out with this topless woman who I'm in bed with, who I'd just met like an hour or two before that. It just felt a bit off. Like it's just like, this feels, this feels wrong in some way.

• 12:15Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 12:16Speaker 00

  But I can only imagine, like, if you were there on that film, it would have been such a different experience to the extent where I would have probably really, like, looked forward to it and, and enjoyed it. And we would have been able to laugh about it. And it would have been such a better scene.

• 12:29Speaker 02

  Absolutely. The important thing is to put in place the guidelines, which is that you should absolutely not be confronted with day on set, no communication beforehand, next to someone who's, you know, topless. You know, that nakedness is for the camera and only for the camera. And as you mentioned, this is everybody's day of work. So that includes all the crew. This is their day of work and their choices that they're working in a place of drama, not in the adult community. So that's where again, part of the protocols is that nudity is only from action to cut. And all other times, you should be covered. And that's not just for you as the actors, but it's also for the crew. So again, the intimacy guidelines would have meant that. You'd have spoken to the director way before the day on set. I speak to the director to find out their vision. Then I say, director,

• 13:13Speaker 02

  you speak to both cast. So that all the intention and creativity is coming from the director. So it gives trust that the intimacy coordinator isn't at all coming in and taking over. So you journey through, you feel empowered, you feel comfortable, you know, there's agreement and consent that you're happy with where you're touching, that they're happy with where they're being touched, they're happy where they're gonna touch you. And then everybody's comfortable, everybody's happy. And then when camera rolls, you know that everything is agreed. And you wouldn't have that weird feeling of like, this is somehow all degrees of confusedness. Yes. And as you can see and hear, it means that actually you can really know what the character's storytelling is, really know what the relationship is, and create a really zinging brilliant scene.

• 13:59Speaker 01

  That's a really nice description of why it matters to get it right for the people involved in the TV show or, or the film that you're working on. Why do the intimate scenes we see on our screen matter for, for us as the viewers? Why does it matter for us watching at home?

• 14:16Speaker 02

  Well, as Dr. Ordna Gorilnik coined, you know, she said, you know, for the audience goes to Hollywood in order to learn how they think they should be as a human being. I truly believe that our art reflects humanity back to itself. So right now, we're consuming our art on our theater, on our stages, but so fundamentally on our screens. So our TV, our film, but also just, you know, really acknowledging how particularly our young people are consuming this, you know, their entertainment through TikTok and YouTube. So that's where we go to learn. And then when what we see on our screens is not showing us something that's authentic as to who we are as human beings, then it's sort of reflecting

• 15:00Speaker 02

  to us a lie about ourselves. You know, when, when you're seeing spontaneous penetration after like 30 seconds of kissing and suddenly taking clothes off and then you're into penetration, that makes people think, oh, that's how I should do it. When you see somebody having an erection, you know, this is more, I suppose, with, with the adult industry, you know, they're, they're the myth of someone staying erect for 20 minutes. Again, that makes people think this is how I should be. This is, this is the truth of how humans are. And then feel that they're doing something wrong. When actually, you know, that journey from, from erection through to ejaculation is something like, you know, five to nine minutes, that's normal, you know? And, and so our screens tell us who we think we should be.

• 15:44Speaker 02

  And when that's not portrayed in an authentic and truthful way, then it's actually telling us something that makes us feel that we're wrong. And when the body image that we're constantly being shown is making we feel that we're lesser than and we're not good enough. And all of that is, is not really serving us to feel that who we are fundamentally as human beings is okay.

• 16:05Speaker 00

  In sort of preparing for this, I've been reading a lot of the book. And something occurred to me that I, I can't believe I've gotten to nearly 40. And I never realized it because throughout my life, I've known that, like intellectually, I've known porn is not real. Like that's a fantasy world that is all a performance. And that's not what real life is like. And I got that. But what I hadn't realized is that, like in the night, so pre-internet in the nineties, this feels a bit weird to confess. So there was late at night on TV, something like 10:30, they would put on like, sort of, I would describe this kind of B nineties, like B movies, that were kind of like, very over

• 16:50Speaker 00

  the top sex, but not porn. It was this sort of like middle ground between like, normal movies and porn. It was this kind of romantic sex movies. That's the best way I could describe them.

• 17:01Speaker 01

  I was watching David Attenborough documentaries.

• 17:04Speaker 00

  That's cool if you're watching that.

• 17:06Speaker 03

  But I'd probably sneak into the front room at home and I thought everyone was asleep and turn it on.

• 17:11Speaker 01

  I was watching Sports Tonight in the other room, so I don't.

• 17:14Speaker 00

  But, but what I hadn't realized until thinking about this is that I knew porn was fake. But I think I'd, I absorbed these sex scenes from films like that and mainstream films and thought that was real. And had faced this pressure on myself that like, oh, that's what it's supposed to look like. Yeah.

• 17:32Speaker 02

  This is it. Absolutely. And it just seeps into our psyche. And then it's so, it's so lovely you sharing that because that's exactly right. You know, that, that when things aren't anatomically really telling you the true story about yourself or about what, how it should work, then you're exactly, you're thinking that's how it should be. And as I say in the book, working with a wonderful couples therapist, Lindsay Blair, you know, her saying that she had couples coming to her saying, you know, we're doing things wrong. And when they describe what's happening, they're saying, you are normal. You know, that is natural and that's normal. But you're thinking it's wrong because of what's been portrayed to you on, on camera. Lindsay Blair came and taught myself and my practitioners, actually, the correct anatomy of arousal. And you say you were 40s. Well,

• 18:14Speaker 02

  I was mid 50s when I had that training with Lindsay. And it's mind blowing.

• 18:19Speaker 01

  Can we go through that now? That's, I think that'd be really interesting for people to, I mean, you don't have to read both chapters in full, but like, I think they're both really good things to, yeah, yeah, to learn and to talk about.

• 18:29Speaker 00

  Do you want me to take this either? Or do you want to do it?

• 18:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, go for it.

• 18:33Speaker 00

  No, no, I forget bits and pieces, but you, I reckon you'll have a more up to date version of it.

• 18:39Speaker 02

  So, so obviously, we tend to know what the anatomy of arousal for a man is. One, because the penis is outside the body and it's more seen. And, and two, it has sort of more of a linear journey. But actually, you have, from the, from the journey to erection, you then actually have a plateau, which I didn't know that that's natural and normal. It's a falling off of the erection. And then the erection comes more fully again through to orgasm and then to the resolution phase. So even just knowing that detail was really wonderful.

• 19:07Speaker 00

  I didn't know that either.

• 19:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 19:11Speaker 01

  I didn't also know it called the resolution phase either. Now it's the resolution phase. I hope you've enjoyed it.

• 19:18Speaker 02

  That's a, yeah, it's the post orgasmic bit where if you, if you want to have your, your fag, that's the point that you'll have it.

• 19:24Speaker 00

  Because I know, like, you know, obviously, like, communication's important, but it's not important. We don't need to communicate every single phase of what's happening. All right, honey, the resolution's happening.

• 19:37Speaker 01

  I've just dropped off a little bit here, but don't worry, I will be back. Wait and tell me.

• 19:41Speaker 00

  Plateau, plateau, plateau. Don't freak out, don't freak out. It's just plateau.

• 19:49Speaker 02

  But it's good to know, isn't it? It's good to know that that's actually a lovely journey. Cause like, hey, if you want more of a full on orgasm, perhaps that plateau phase is very important.

• 19:57Speaker 00

  It actually is a true, a true hero's journey.

• 20:02Speaker 00

  It actually is.

• 20:05Speaker 02

  But anyway, yes, but laughter is wonderful and also education is wonderful. The more you understand, then this is it, the more you can be free and play and, and have fun. Anyway, the anatomy of arousal for a woman, of course, one is the clitoris has as much, if not more erectile tissue. But of course, what you see is just the, the head of the clitoris and, and actually understanding this beautiful Y shaped organ that comes around. That the vulva, but of course internally. So first of all, that's great to understand. And then from there, actually understanding that in an unaroused state, that womb lies flat over the bladder. And gradually as it becomes aroused, the womb, the womb gets engorged and lifts. And as it lifts, it opens the vagina until it's practically vertical.

• 20:47Speaker 00

  It's, it's, it's like a terrible thing to say, but I forget the wombs down there. Like, you know what I mean?

• 20:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's an interesting point though.

• 20:55Speaker 00

  Cause it, it's like, in my mind, it's like, well, you talk about the womb when you're talking about like pregnancy and children. But like to talk about the womb in terms of like a sexual conversation, it feels like they're, they're separate things in my mind, you know? It's just, it's maybe.

• 21:13Speaker 03

  Bizarre cause they're like, it's the whole point.

• 21:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:16Speaker 03

  Like that's all, yeah, yeah, that's the whole point, but.

• 21:19Speaker 01

  It needs to be closer.

• 21:20Speaker 00

  Yeah. It's true. And, and weirdly, maybe I don't have kids, maybe not surprising, but I've never thought that. I've never thought that like, oh, of course it has to be there because I've only ever thought of like sex as like a, a, a leisure, as an activity, as opposed to like a mission.

• 21:35Speaker 02

  But, but again, I was just saying, understanding sort of like the, the all encompassing aspects of what's happening inside. A woman's body and someone with a womb is, is just both one fascinating. And as you say, just that image of that, but also the understanding of that and the understanding of, of, of, um, not, oh goodness, she's, you know, she's got a low libido because she takes this amount of time. But actually understanding that's the journey, that's what's happening and working with it. So you can enjoy that journey and knowing you're at the point of which then it's peak time for a woman to come to orgasm and then having that resolution phase. And again, education is wonderful because, because then it gives understanding and then, and then you can understand and play with that.

• 22:16Speaker 00

  This is really fun.

• 22:19Speaker 00

  Like, and I mean that, like, it is like, it's really fun. We're allowed to talk about this.

• 22:26Speaker 02

  But this is absolutely fabulous. And in a way that's part, a big part of the inspiration of what the intimacy guidelines brought into the industry is exactly that. Oh, we can lift the lid off this.

• 22:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:38Speaker 02

  The intimate content doesn't have to be the elephant in the room that's not considered, that's not spoken about because there wasn't a professional process and procedures by which we could engage with it. And when it lifts the lid, look at the fun we're having. Of course, we don't want every intimate scene that we see in our TV and films to take 20 minutes before they get to penetration. But we can indicate, you know, a passing of time, we can indicate the need for lubrication so that, as you were saying, um, that, that the intimate scenes that you're watching, somehow you just feel. That, that you just stay more comfortable in watching it because there's a true sense of it being, you know, reflecting our humanity. And then it helps us understand ourselves better because hopefully then you, you are seeing something that is something that you could take into your own personal life.

• 23:22Speaker 03

  And you said in, so you were saying then that there's the, the male, sorry, I'm going back to anatomy of arousal. Is a line, is a linear journey.

• 23:31Speaker 01

  You've plateaued, you, you, you need a resolution on that.

• 23:35Speaker 00

  Am I understanding correctly that the female journey isn't just a linear thing? It, it's a bit different.

• 23:40Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 23:41Speaker 00

  So.

• 23:42Speaker 02

  Yes, that, that, that is more cyclical, that, that there's aspect that a woman can get into, um, the need for intimacy. But if you've got a baby and you're hearing it crying, it's easy for them to, to, to break off and, and go and deal with that and then come back and then come back on that journey. So, so, so the sense that the female journey to full arousal, it has more of a cyclical quality. Yes. And then, and then also particularly, um, post menopausal, that desire for arousal can come after you initiate, you know, intimacy with, with your partner. So also to, to, to understand that journey of the female hormones, um, is also really important.

• 24:17Speaker 00

  When you say cyclical, do, do you mean just to talk like practically here? Like, do you mean like, if, if, if it gets around to the moment where it's going to happen and then it doesn't happen, it needs to restart? It's like, it needs to go back through the process again. Is that what you mean?

• 24:34Speaker 02

  Not restart, but it's easier for a woman to, to, to, to break off and be distracted by something else and then come back and jump back on, as it were, and come back into that place. Yes.

• 24:45Speaker 00

  Yeah. One of the things that I find, yeah, this is, this is a tricky episode because I don't know how much to share of mine. And also it's not just my story to share. But I, one of the things I find that I think is a myth that I've taken on from Hollywood is this idea that you both meet each other at this moment of passion. And it's just like, we're all on together here. And I think when you're in a long-term relationship, you realise that you have different pressures and stresses in your life. And that you're not always both in the same boat of like, I think we should have sex and the other person's like, I don't want to. I have to be honest that it, when the model is the Hollywood model, I find it hard to not feel like a failure sometimes.

• 25:30Speaker 00

  It's easy for this dialogue to creep in of like, oh, maybe I'm just not desirable to you anymore.

• 25:36Speaker 02

  This is it. And absolutely, that's not the case, you know, when we got all the distractions and particularly when you have kids. And as I, you know, in the chapter, a lifetime of intimate, um, you know, relationships, our desire shifts and changes throughout life. And, and throughout all the different pressures and, and demands on us that we have. And again, this isn't shown clearly enough, you know, in our TV and it's great when it is like catastrophe was a brilliant TV series. Absolutely. Oh, isn't it? Absolutely amazing. So we need more of that to understand that actually that desire to have, have intimacy, it what's sold to us so completely is sort of, I would say 20 something, you know, with where you see someone. Can't, can't wait to, to, to get each other's clothes off and then it all just happens spontaneously.

• 26:16Speaker 02

  But actually as you journey through life, that's where that aspect for some people, you know, that idea of clear choreography. So in contemplating that, the choreography is, is twofold. One, one is actually considering, you know, what, what do we do? What works for me? What perhaps doesn't work for me anymore? What else might I need? And actually to go and seek and look and explore, you know, sort of either through, you know, books or YouTube or whatever. And then the other thing that I really learnt from Lindsay Blair is also that thing of not end gaming it, just to know that that time together and that intimacy together is being intimate. And then not end gaming it. So perhaps just, you know, sort of having a nice meal, perhaps offering each other a massage and then to see where it goes, see what happens.

• 26:58Speaker 02

  And that was a big part for me is opening out as you get into, you know, your older years is looking at actually all those different forms of intimacy. There's, um, emotional intimacy, intellectual intimacy, experiential intimacy. So nurturing all of those parts of intimacy and then of course sexual intimacy and physical intimacy. So yes, going your normal, when it's really hard to find time and find the desire to suddenly just step into sexy time. So you make it an important and, and, um, and valued part of your whole aspects of intimacy with each other.

• 27:31Speaker 00

  Well, what, um, like what about, what about, I mean, this might seem like an obvious question, but if we want to create more intimacy or intimate moments, how important is like touch?

• 27:42Speaker 02

  So it's lovely that you bring that awareness because of course as a child, for, for a baby to be touched, to be hugged, to be held close, to feel that heartbeat. Of, of their parents is, um, just so vital to that nervous system, you know, nurturing and being known that they're safe. And then also just, you know, a, a person's development is, is so nurtured by, by touch and connection. And then to remember that as we, um, sort of separate out rightly from our parents to know that, you know, just touch a hold of a hand or a hug. Is an absolutely vital part of, of, of keeping that connection with our loved ones, particularly if there's illness and, and you know, sort of the bodies sort of perhaps not available,

• 28:27Speaker 02

  you know, to, to, to a partner in a sexual way because illness is, is, is taken over. Just to know that a touch of a hand or to, to be held or a hug or perhaps a massage of the feet, you know, it's absolutely vital to, to keep that intimate connection. Back in, in the late eighties, I used to, I work as a massage therapist as well, giving therapeutic treatments to people who had HIV and AIDS. And that was such a wonderful thing, dependent on, on where they were in their body, you know, so somebody who had skin cancer, so his whole body was too delicate to touch. But I would give him reflexology or give, or you know, another practice, another person giving them onsite massage. And those sorts of human to human connections are absolutely sort of wonderful for helping someone

• 29:10Speaker 02

  to feel connected and seen and nurtured and cared for.

• 29:13Speaker 03

  It's not exactly what you're talking about, but it, it, it, what you've said has made me think about something. We, um, we had Esther Perel on the podcast and had a wonderful chat with her. And I was talking a little bit about when you've got two young kids and you put, get them both to bed and you both, both me and my wife are exhausted and we are flicking through our phones on the couch and not really talking or connecting. And I was saying, and I asked her, what's the cost? And she had a brilliant answer about what the cost to a relationship can be if you let that to persist. One of her suggestions has always stuck with me. She said, it's really important. There's an intention for you to connect. So she said, it can be a, a minute of you lying in the dark together, holding hands, but you have to create that time and that moment.

• 29:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:58Speaker 03

  And I, and it's really always stuck with me how important it is for us as a couple to, when life's busy and you've got young kids and how hectic life can be, to have little moments that are intimate, but not in a sexual way, but just holding hands at a certain point. Or if you're watching TV, like legs are touching or something like that. Just a moment of intentional connection that I'm still here and how important that is. And it's a, it's a beautiful lesson that I feel is relevant to this.

• 30:31Speaker 00

  Hmm. Do you think, um, I mean, do, well, do you think like we're in a time at the moment where people are, I don't know if it's the right way to say it, but like a reluctant to, or maybe even on the greater end of the spectrum, like afraid of touch?

• 30:50Speaker 02

  So I think there's a few things that are going on, um, leading us to this point in time. So again, spoken about time on our screens. So particularly our young people, the way they can meet up, the way they can socialize with their friends is more and more disembodied. So it doesn't necessarily mean that they're socializing less, as in connecting with their friends less, but they're doing it through their screens, you know, so they're meeting up with their friends, perhaps playing Call of Duty or whatever it might be, but then they're, you know, meeting up on Discord with their friends and that's their form of, of, of connection. And what I'm so aware of as a body practitioner is what's happening in the body is that they're talking and then they're playing with their friends and they're all being the avatars, sort of as a gang going through,

• 31:32Speaker 02

  you know, the streets with their guns and, but what's actually happening is the fingers are doing this. And, um, and all of that energy cursing through their bodies and then not actually coming to touch. Our kids are going, going to pubs less and meeting up in person less. And that absolutely is having an effect on how they're engaging with each other, how they're having that, you know, connections with each other, that physical camaraderie is absolutely getting less and less due to how they're able to socialize.

• 32:00Speaker 00

  So is that, is that because like, so, so when they get to an age where they want to be sexually intimate with someone, that they don't have the sort of just the same maybe experience or, uh, examples of, of just like non-sexual touch when they're a younger?

• 32:16Speaker 02

  That's right. There was a report out just a couple of days ago here in The Guardian about how, you know, our babies are being given screens or, you know, the screens being put in their baby players. So they're so instantly just watching a screen and in that place, um, the passivity of receiving an image, um, rather than outputting, you know, it used to be that you'd had a felt thing and a crunchy thing and a squeaky toy. So that they're reaching out and they're engaging and they're discovering through their nervous system. And what's happening right from our babies is it's thinning, they're not experiencing the world, having a physical experiential, um, exploration of the world. And it's thinning their cerebral cortex by, you know, sort of millimeters.

• 32:57Speaker 00

  Whoa.

• 32:57Speaker 02

  Exactly. So it has a really serious impact. And then, um, particularly all of our kids in that experience of COVID and, you know, the, the lockdowns, again, I feel has had such a, um, more profound impact on, on all of those, um, you know, from the babies that were born during that time, right the way through to the teenagers. You know, when lockdown finished and we were back out and I was back out on the tube, but my daughter was going, oh, this feels like it's just too overwhelming. So, because in, in their arc of lived experience, for me, sort of like, there was only sort of one, you know, a few months out of, you know, 50 odd years, whereas, you know, for someone who's 20 and they've got a, a whole year of that time

• 33:41Speaker 02

  spent in lockdown and exactly that sense of your body could, you know, kill somebody if you share the virus. So, so that vilification of a body has had a real impact. Then the rise in, um, anxiety, panic attacks and self harming. That's the overwhelm that's happening with our young people. So again, it's just having those conversations with your kids and navigating and negotiating for themselves how they want to be and what they want to do. And also helping to, to meet up in person, because I think we, there had, there needs to be an antithesis, um, to, to, to what is unconsciously happening if we don't consciously, you know, offer, offer a, a lived life alternative.

• 34:22Speaker 01

  Hmm. Back to, um, the anatomy of arousal, just sorry.

• 34:27Speaker 01

  No, you just, I think it's, you mentioned time before and the time differences. I think the analogy I had in my head, this may not work, there's this new running shoe that's come out and I'm very excited to get it. And I, and my shoe, the place I get my running shoes from said, we'll email you when it's in. And I said, the shoe's arrived. And I was so excited, I didn't even think, I just got in a car, went straight there and I head down, wasn't even looking at the shop. I just walked in, tried to open the door and the door was closed because they weren't open yet. Um, and so the analogy, I'm just thinking, my analogy is-

• 34:55Speaker 00

  Please land this plane.

• 34:58Speaker 01

  My analogy is like, for men, when they get excited and they get an erection, they're like, okay, they're ready for penetration. And it's like, they could do it straight away. But a bit like the shoe shop, like it's not, it's a little bit like my running shoe shop. For a female, they might send a message saying, the shoes are in, they're definitely here. But it doesn't mean you just walk in and get them straight away because we're not exactly open yet.

• 35:23Speaker 00

  We're not open 24/7.

• 35:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, but they were, they were going to be open, actually it turned out half an hour later. We're probably not talking half an hour time difference, but what I'm trying to say is,

• 35:35Speaker 01

  like time wise, men are ready straight away, women are not.

• 35:39Speaker 02

  Yes, exactly.

• 35:45Speaker 02

  No, but actually I realized I hadn't fully answered your question before. Actually, that is the case, that female orgasm through penetrative sex is, um, is probably the exception rather than the rule. And to know that, you know, and actually a woman does need clitoral stimulation and, and, um, well, you need to check out with your partners, but, um, but that is more, that's more than normal. And then go and educate yourself. And again, for me, that's particularly post, post-menopausal, you know, going things shift and change again, you know, things shift and change after you have babies. Things shift and change if there's been illnesses. So that's the important thing is going, actually the connection with my body, the sensuality and the, um, that the loving that I get, you know, through my body with my partner is a gorgeous thing.

• 36:29Speaker 02

  And actually is a beautiful part of our lives to, to be nurtured and to be considered right the way through with the whole of our life.

• 36:37Speaker 03

  In, in what you said there, I think there was a, a point that I don't think is necessarily discussed or thought about from men enough. I, I don't know if you guys agree with this, but I think that there's a myth that I took on as a teenager, that part of being a man is that you should just know what to do.

• 36:54Speaker 02

  Hmm. Yeah.

• 36:55Speaker 03

  Part of what you sort of smuggled in as part of that was that chat, talk to your partners, like-

• 36:59Speaker 02

  No, it's so lovely that you, that you raise that. The thing is, you know, how do we ever know anything unless we learn or are taught? And again, that's a big, um, myth and, you know, so, so damaging for all of us in our, in our lives around intimacy. So first of all, for our kids, as they're learning and opening out to their sexual awakening, this feeling that they should just know. And of course, just like you have beautifully shared that you don't know. Of course our kids don't know and shouldn't know. If you want to learn how to be a brilliant tennis player, you're going to go to have tennis lessons and you're going to practice and you'll learn. But that's where I'm advocating, you know, that idea of really nurturing our, our young people.

• 37:43Speaker 02

  Um, first of all, to listen to themselves, to give them a language, to, to ask for what they want. Um, and to respect themselves and then respect their relationships. And I believe, you know, sort of for our young boys and girls right from the get-go, that if we, if we have that openness with them, ask them what they want, ask them what they feel, give them a language to, to be able to, to, to ask for what they want and call their boundaries. So for me, that's a given, that's a, you know, um, a baseline that I really invite for everybody. And then I hope we get away, you know, sort of, you know, particularly our young boys, I really feel for them that sort of what they're shown is, is just so confused. Pornography is so easily accessible that that's where they're going to learn in a void of, of positive sex education

• 38:27Speaker 02

  that's easily accessible. And it's got to be easily accessible online in the right places. And also there's brilliant books and that's where I'm really proud in the, in the sex education chapter, that there's a really fabulous, um, list of books.

• 38:39Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 38:40Speaker 02

  And, and also some videos and podcasts at, at the end.

• 38:44Speaker 01

  I've just, I'm just flipping through the book here and I've just, I've, I've, I've just opened up a part-

• 38:49Speaker 00

  Your, your, your book, your book.

• 38:52Speaker 01

  Not a book, your book, your wonderful book. And I, um, I was like in a hangover from being like a kid where you just flip to the pictures, like you just go straight to the pictures. I've done that.

• 39:01Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 39:01Speaker 01

  And there's a picture here of the clitoris and the penis. Golly gosh, they look similar.

• 39:07Speaker 02

  This is it. This is it. Isn't it a wonderful image? And that's done by the incredible Hazel Mead. It shows that in utero, the cells for the penis and the clitoris come from exactly the same few cells. And one becomes a penis and one's becomes a clitoris. And exactly that's where you can see they're absolutely the same sort of, um, arrangement of cells. They're just in different places. And that's where the female clitoris is. You can see it's as much, if not more, um, engorging tissue as the penis.

• 39:36Speaker 01

  So, so what should we as men know about the clitoris, do you think? What's a really important thing for us to understand?

• 39:42Speaker 02

  So I'm not a sex therapist, but it's just give it time, stay connected, check in, ask your partners what arouses them, have a play, explore, and then let yourself be guided by that connection between the two of you.

• 39:56Speaker 01

  Would it be good to say like, gosh, this looks like Martinez?

• 40:00Speaker 00

  You give it a go. You can try it out, see what happens.

• 40:06Speaker 02

  Of course, of course, the issue is that more of that, the clitoris is internal. You don't see it.

• 40:11Speaker 01

  It doesn't quite look, yeah.

• 40:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, but no, great question.

• 40:14Speaker 01

  I could say like.

• 40:16Speaker 03

  Maybe show the picture.

• 40:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, I can draw a picture.

• 40:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, you could try. Yeah.

• 40:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:21Speaker 03

  Because you're a sexy man.

• 40:23Speaker 02

  The other pictures that are really lovely in there are, one, the things that you don't see in mainstream porn, than going, this is all normal, like running to get tissues after there's been an orgasm or, you know, pimply bottoms or farting and just fabulous illustrations, bringing some more normality and openness to, both to ourselves and in particular for our young people, so that they're really well educated, journeying through to their sexual awakening, teaching our kids about the anatomy of arousal, the anatomy of dysfunction, about the cycle of periods, about what happens in menopause. We need that for our, our boys and girls, you know, invariably you might have a, you know, your teenage boy whose mum's going through the menopause.

• 41:06Speaker 02

  It's not as if this is something, it's like, oh, they don't need to know that then, no. Let's lift the lid, open out and share all of it. And then it means that our young people then can journey into their sexual awakening, being informed and then also having that, um, understanding about respect for themselves, listens to themselves, that intimacy is not just about a physical thing, but it's another human being that you're interacting with and communicating with, be it a love relationship or just both consenting teenagers, you know, journeying through to having a lovely sexual time with each other. But for all of us to understand about consent, intimacy is about consent. And anything that isn't with consent is not actually about intimacy, it's about power.

• 41:46Speaker 02

  Listening, not just to what someone says, but how they say it, what the languages that they're using and what's happening in their body, having positive conversations, making who we are in our intimate lives a normal part of how we talk to our, our kids and for ourselves, so that actually everybody can have more enjoyable and more healthy sexual expression.

• 42:07Speaker 03

  Hmm. It's funny what you said before, Ryan, about, um, that the womb is involved. Because I agree with you, before I had kids, it just hadn't, before we had kids, me and my wife, I had never really, I'd kind of forgotten that part. And then suddenly it was, became very obvious that that's a big part, part of it. But it makes me also think that our bodies change after birth and therefore intimacy changes after you have kids, not just because there are kids that are, take up a lot of your time and distracting, but people's bodies change. I think that can be a very challenging thing for many people to navigate that successfully.

• 42:48Speaker 02

  That's right, especially with your first child and, and for the, um, the, the woman who's gone through the act of being pregnant, feeling this, you know, being, moving inside them, you know, having that connection of, of, um, building that relationship. But then the journey of, um, of birth, so suddenly areas that have been fundamentally private and or just something that you're sharing with you and your, and your loved one, um, suddenly become this public, um, functional things when you're giving birth, you know, with the midwives and the doctors and delivering, um, a baby. And then suddenly that shift to the breasts that, um, that again have been, you know, source of purely sensual pleasure, suddenly become this functional aspect.

• 43:33Speaker 02

  If you, you know, if you choose to breastfeed and even if you're not choosing to breastfeed, you know, the, the, the colostrum will come in and then the milk. And so that sudden shift to the body as a function, in a way, a very animalistic function of, of nurturing, first, first of all, having grown a baby and then nurturing a baby and, and breastfeeding. So, so, so that takes again, just really being present and care and then understanding. And then that journey to how you, how you journey back to, to being a sexual body and sensuality again. You know, you talked about touch, um, earlier. That's where all those kinds of things are, the other ways of being intimate and sensual with each other.

• 44:14Speaker 02

  So certainly massage and, and holding each other's hands and, um, and, and doing, you know, beautiful, caring things for each other that keeps that nurturing of intimacy while you're having this onslaught, particularly if it's a first time baby of how you, how you both care for this lovely, um, bundle that's suddenly, you know, so precious between both of you.

• 44:34Speaker 03

  Hmm. You mentioned there that your, what was once private can become public to, uh, nurses and doctors, but in a film that you've coordinated can also become public to, um, petrol station attendants. Which I have to say, this is, I'm referencing We Live in Time and the birth scene in that. I, I don't know if there's a question here, but I just want to commend you and Florence Pugh and Andrew Garfield and the other actors and people involved, because for me, I, I watched that at work for, for the first time. I was very emotional very quickly because I, I remember how much the first, the first time

• 45:15Speaker 03

  that we had, uh, my wife gave birth, I couldn't, it, it was really hard to describe. And I still struggle to describe what a, um, what an intimate moment that is in that it feels like there's nothing else in the world happening except for this.

• 45:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:33Speaker 03

  And that this is the most remarkable thing to have ever happened in the world, even though it's probably happening in the room next door. And somehow you managed to capture that feeling in a petrol station toilet in that film. Not just you, I guess everyone involved, but it's the most accurate and realistic. Our child did not, was not given birth in a petrol station, but it was still one of the most accurate thing I've ever seen on screen that took me back to that moment.

• 46:02Speaker 02

  Um, it, it was the most amazing scene to, to support and it's so lovely hearing your response to it. Because it was, is, um, obviously beautifully written, but the care of, um, John Crowley, the director. And then I work closely with the expert midwife lady called Penny Taylor, and that's so important again. So Penny bringing the, um, you know, the sounds of, of, of, um, labour. And, and then for me, just offering sort of some of the physicality in that journey through the spine and, you know, of, of that sense of, of birthing a baby. And then of course, so important, the agreement and consent of touch between, um, um, Andrew and Florence.

• 46:42Speaker 02

  And then the, the two wonderful actors who play, playing the, um, the, the petrol attendants.

• 46:50Speaker 02

  So all of that duty of care went into, you know, making sure that each and every step of that was choreographed. And then of course, the amazing woman who offered her newborn baby, you know, to, to be part of, part of that. And then we had a whole day of performing that scene. And, um, and as Florence has, has spoken about, it's like this hallowed sacred space. And it's lovely that you do get that from it, you know, you know, while every single one of us have been born of someone's womb, and yet each and every time it is a miracle, it is so special, it is so sacred. And that was one other aspect. I actually was writing the comment on a woman's body is so often, a naked body is so often seen disembodied and ethereal and floating and not realistic,

• 47:32Speaker 02

  while then also going to set to film this where Florence in all of her glory, she's so embodied, she's so powerful in her body, she's so free, she's so on her impulse. And, um, and she just gave her absolute all to that.

• 47:47Speaker 03

  And also, um, that the, the birth was kind of taken seriously, I think, in as strangely as that sounds, that it wasn't, uh, either, either a comedy bit or, or shameful. I think one of the beauties of your work is that when you tell things accurately, they get, are given the respect that they deserve. And there's, and there's beauty in that. And that really came through.

• 48:13Speaker 00

  So, cause, cause I, I mean, I've, you know, not seen a birth, you know, in real life. But I was watching that, cause in the, in the scene Florence Pugh's character is on all fours when she gives birth. And I thought, and I thought like, well, that, that, is that a normal way to do it? Cause in my mind, it is just like in the hospital bed, on your back, legs apart.

• 48:34Speaker 03

  There's only one way to do it.

• 48:35Speaker 01

  Man faints.

• 48:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:36Speaker 01

  Man faints.

• 48:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Man with the old camcorder faints backwards and it's, but it's, that, that's.

• 48:41Speaker 03

  Or a gynecologist, that's it.

• 48:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:44Speaker 03

  But is, but. Obstetrician, I should say.

• 48:46Speaker 00

  Is that a common, is that a common way to give birth? Is it on all fours like that?

• 48:50Speaker 02

  Um, so again, you know, it's a natural, it's a normal thing and a woman, you know, you know, if it's, if a birth is all going, you know, to, you know, naturally so that it's not needing intervention, then yes, that's a, that's a position where a woman is empowered. And I'm not saying anything's right or wrong, but what was wonderful about that is seeing, you know, Alma's character just following what her body needed to do was so glorious and so empowering.

• 49:19Speaker 03

  When I was reading your book, I was listening to it, I should say. I don't know whether you're supposed to say listening, if it's a cheat to say I was reading when I was really listening, but I was listening to it. But having said that, listening to the book is so good. Ada reads it. I hope you don't mind me talking about you in front of you like this. Ada reads it. So it's her talking to you, but also at the end of every chapter, which I would be harder to do, I think, in the written form. You get the opportunity to do breathwork exercises, which I've done a few of them.

• 49:47Speaker 01

  And there's also music like in the background. It's like, yeah, just makes it so, yeah.

• 49:51Speaker 03

  It's a really, really, really good experience to listen to it. And I found myself getting so much more, I wasn't expecting to get emotional, but I got really emotional to the point of, well, like tears, because I was remembering what it was like to be a teenager and how much I didn't know and how terrified I was. And the experiences that I had with girls that I just was thinking back of how scared we both were and how little we knew. And I just felt so sad for the two of us, for what it could have been a beautiful moment. I don't know what their experience of it was, but to me, I just look at a kid fumbling

• 50:36Speaker 03

  around and not knowing what they're doing and feeling so much pressure to not do the wrong thing, to not upset them, to not do anything that would, just total fear. And I had never realised that that was what it was like for me, even though it was, there was, obviously, it was enjoyable as well at moments and it was like exciting and it was thrilling and all that kind of stuff. But also, it didn't need to be so fucking terrifying. And then I think of, this might sound like a strange link, but I think there's, I think it gives me real hope. My three-year-old came back from kindergarten the other day and he had a sticker on. And I couldn't see exactly what the sticker said, but my wife

• 51:20Speaker 03

  said, oh, Augie, you had a, people come to kindergarten today to talk to you. And I said, oh, really, Augie? What was the, what was the incursion today? And he said, oh, we learned about our private parts. And I was like, oh, wow, what did you learn? And he said, I shouldn't look at my penis. And I said, no, no, you're allowed to look at your penis. It's other people's penises that you shouldn't be looking at. And he's like, oh, okay, great.

• 51:44Speaker 01

  Josh's son's 19.

• 51:50Speaker 03

  I just, it made me so happy that he'd, that we were able to have that conversation around the dinner table, that we were able to have a very, like, no stigma, no, from a three-year-old.

• 52:01Speaker 02

  That's right. And actually, Australia has been amazing at, you know, sort of bringing in positive sex education. Again, as part of the research in the book, actually finding out that Australia fundamentally has been one of the first places that has brought in really positive sex education across the board. And Josh, hearing that, that, you know, your son's school has got people coming in. And again, that's what is so important, that you could have those conversations and you have it. It is natural and normal. It's the most basic, fundamental desire, who we love and how we love is, is, is just the core of our humanity and our relationships. And, and it's wonderful, Josh, that you're absolutely aware of that. You can have this conversation around the dinner table. It

• 52:44Speaker 02

  is natural and normal. You know, I was born in mid, the mid 60s, you know, we come from that place of shame and secrecy. And then therefore, sort of those fumbling first encounters, you know, that leave us with that sense of, oh, you know, it wasn't as good as it could be. And, and just feeling back and how you weren't equipped to sort of possibly have a, a positive journey together. And also, that's one of the aspects of, of that scene that I start the book with, from Normal People, Marianne's sexual awakening with Connell and, you know, her asking for protection, them having that constant dialogue, him saying this, you know, this might, you know, be uncomfortable, we can stop at any time, keep letting me know how it feels. And that constant dialogue and to knowing that constant dialogue

• 53:29Speaker 02

  can be sexy or is sexy. Consent is sexy. And I really have a call to arms for all writers, write up, you know, writers out there, write the intimate scenes better. Don't just like get off the hook and go, they have sex, you know, write, dream into who these characters are in their sexual expression. Let's have more of that in there. So that, so that again, we have more fun-filled intimate content and content that really, you know, sort of lets us see who these characters are, but, but also lets us lift the lid and, and be more realistic.

• 54:01Speaker 00

  That scene in Normal People, I mean, I loved that show when it came out, like my partner and I jammed, like, we just watched that and loved it. And this is the whole show, not just this scene. But I guess this scene in particular, because we're on the topic, it just felt so real. I think watching something like that, I felt very, I felt very seen in, in the sense that it's like, oh, what, what, what I do and how I go about it, in all its fumbling and it's like, it's not necessarily always romantic and it's not smooth. You know, it, it felt like, okay. But it's just two people trying to just, I guess, just be there for each other and be very present, like in the moment. I'm,

• 54:45Speaker 00

  I'm, I'm not quite as cool and smooth as Paul Merschel, but still, it's still, it's kind of quite, it's quite inspiring, I think, to watch it.

• 54:54Speaker 03

  And maybe liberating.

• 54:54Speaker 00

  And liberating. Yeah. Yeah.

• 54:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 54:56Speaker 02

  Intimacy is about being present and first of all, with yourself. If you want to, again, just keep being present with what's good for you, what do you like? Is that sense of connecting with yourself, listening to your own body, and then also just keeping the body alive. And then, you know, a big part of just becoming consciously conscious of the effects of our screens and how much we're just on our screens and how much we sort of be disembodied people in how we operate. And it's not to vilify our screens, but to stay conscious about, actually, we are bodies on an earth where fundamentally are the elements of earth, air, fire and water. You know, go and walk barefoot in the morning, go dancing

• 55:39Speaker 02

  together so that you keep yourself alivened in your body. Yeah, just present in yourself and then, and then bring that presence to your partner. And then, and then it's so lovely what you're saying, just be in the moment. Just trust, you know, if you've explored yourself, perhaps you've found some different things you want to offer, perhaps you're going to bring in toys, perhaps you're going to bring in lubrication, you know, have those conversations with your partner. And then, like you say, just be in the present moment, be just, you know, in that sense of gaze of listening to your body, listening to their body, and then just go with the flow, be in the zone. Absolutely. You're absolutely spot on.

• 56:18Speaker 01

  Are these principles that, I mean, you mentioned before about menopause and the changes that take place, both physiologically and also sociologically, having kids, how do you keep that intimate connection throughout all that life throws at you?

• 56:34Speaker 02

  Open communication is the beginning, the communication with yourself and then how you share that with your partner. Because of course, I'm not pretending that leap to open communication transparency around our intimate and sexual desires is easy because we come from a world, isn't it? Just as you were saying at the beginning of this, wow, it's just so nice that we can just talk openly about this part of our lives. That's the beginning of going, whoa, ah, it doesn't have to be something that's secret of secrecy or I bring my lifetime of shame to it. Actually, I can just shift the idea about what it is for us and how it is between us and to know that, that you shift and change all the time. And then you mentioned about menopause. So I'm really excited to share about that. It

• 57:19Speaker 02

  happens to half the world's population. And yet, you know, how much it's just been shrouded in secrecy and just something that you just get on with. A woman post-menopausal is not suddenly an old person. In fact, it's an incredibly beautiful and sensuous and sexy and vibrant time. We have energy, we have sass, we have sexuality, we have experience of life. And actually, once a female cycle isn't brought on that journey of menstruation, actually, there's a freedom to that and a freedom that, that our, our experience of our sex and our sensuality with our partners is just for that, for pleasure and for loving and for enjoyment. And there's a real ownership of that and to enjoy all the energy and the

• 58:03Speaker 02

  gorgeousness that we have to bring in this part of our lives. You know, our sensuality, our sexuality and our juiciness with ourselves, you know, can go on right the way through till the end of our days.

• 58:13Speaker 03

  It's such a wonderful message. I, because I do think that there is a really sort of old school idea that I think you kind of alluded to earlier, when you said that there's this sort of myth of, that the peak of sort of, the, the peak is sort of your 20, like 19 or 20s, and then it's just downhill from there for the rest of your life. And then you're going to have less sex and all that. And it's just, you've reached the peak already. I, I think, I love the way you described, not just, because we're not just talking about, I guess, penetrative sex, but like all the different ways you can be intimate with your partner, that you can explore throughout your whole life and develop a deeper connection that you ever had with someone when you were 19.

• 58:55Speaker 02

  That's right. And as, you know, just as anything that you've practised for a long time, you can get better and better and better. So it's the same with how you experience both your intimacy, as you say, and that was a big, you go, oh, I'm into it, we're in this way and this way and this way. And how all of those, all of the awarenesses of how you are, how you develop and nurture intimacy then leads and into both your physical and sexual intimacy.

• 59:19Speaker 00

  I feel like, I feel like so many, you know, lots of episodes that we, different topics we talk about, we, we obviously need to put like particular trigger warnings on the start of each episode, depending on the topic. I feel like the trigger warning for this episode needs to be for our parents. Just terrifying for my parents to listen to this.

• 59:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I might work out a way to make it hide, just disappear from their feed.

• 59:45Speaker 02

  No. Can you imagine if they listen to this? And they, yeah, you know, as, as I say, you know, the exciting aspect is, you know, as our people, our older people are perhaps going into an old people's home, that, and that awareness, again, in the research is someone's sexual expression is as much a part of their human rights as the exercise that they get and the food that they want to eat. And that's a really exciting thought for me. Like I say, that we keep that, that understanding of who we are, right into our older years. So, but I, but I'm aware that that could be quite a challenging conversation to have with your parents possibly. Okay, mum and dad, you know, do you need a vibrator going into?

• 1:00:25Speaker 00

  My, my, my sister listens to these episodes quite regularly, so bags not.

• 1:00:35Speaker 02

  But wouldn't it be lovely if, if, if in time to come, that we can embrace our sexual selves as a beautiful and gorgeous and open part of our fundamental conversation in life?

• 1:00:46Speaker 01

  It's interesting to consider.

• 1:00:50Speaker 01

  Thank you so much for your time today, Ada. The book is called Intimacy. This has been so educational today and so much fun as well. Thank you.

• 1:00:59Speaker 02

  It's amazing. Thank you so much for your care and your interest.

• 1:01:02Speaker 03

  Thanks, Ada. Thank you.

• 1:01:05Speaker 03

  If you enjoyed this episode and want a little more, you might enjoy our subscriber-only apps, available on Patreon and Apple Podcasts. If you want a little more but don't want to pay anymore, then you can join our newsletter at theimperfects.com.au. And while you're there, you'll be able to see the names and faces of all the incredible people who help make this show. A show made on the lands of the Wurundjeri, Wurundjeri people, and we pay our respects to elders past and present. The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you're struggling, please see a healthcare professional or call Lifeline on 13 11 14.