Our Phone Odyssey Begins

Could you live without your phone for a month? 🩵To hear more episodes like this, join A Little More Imperfects! Patreon - www.patreon.com/theimperfects Apple - http://apple.co/theimperfects This week it's just the three of us. And like Odysseus before us, we embark on a life changing epic. Where he fought the trojans, monsters, cannibals, sirens, the oceans, a cyclops and ACTUAL GODS!! We will do something even ‘EPIC…ER’. We’re tackling our phones. Each of us take on a month-long challenge to fix our worst phone habits, inspired by the ‘god of no phones’ - Christopher Nolan and the release of THE ODYSSEY (if that wasn’t obvious already, but we promise this episode isn't an ad). We then share some of our favourite bits from behind the pay wall, from our Patreon/Subscriber community. Ryan has an unplanned, very generous on-air hair donation; Josh shares a bit from a book which changed his life a bit; which leads to one of the most honest conversations he and Hugh have ever had on (or off) the show, about comparison, self-esteem, and growing up idolising your older brother. This is one epic journey. 00:00 — The Phone Odyssey Begins 08:54 — Our Phone-Free Pledges 19:11 — Modelling Better Habits at Home 25:29 — Hairing is Caring 37:57 — A Bit From a Book That Changed Josh’s Life a Bit 48:18 — The Conversation Between Brothers That Needed to Be Had 🫖Imperfects episodes mentioned on this episode Bronte Campbell - Comparison, The thief of joy ****https://bit.ly/49S1S7C Joe Brumm & Hamish Blake - A Bluey Print for Dads https://bit.ly/4w4ohI8 How (and why) Ryan Dumped his iPhone https://bit.ly/3T3xdyM Sam Willoughby - The tragic injury that changed his life (and Ryan’s Finnastride admission) https://bit.ly/4fa5u8p 📖 Things to read The midnight library - Matt Haigh https://bit.ly/4vGgnE0 How Proust can change your life - Alain de Botton https://bit.ly/4dYfCkd In search of lost time - Marcel Proust https://bit.ly/4vt3lJG 📺Things to watch The Odyssey https://bit.ly/4vY8nij Christopher Nolan on 60minutes https://bit.ly/4yjfZgX 💌Join 8,300+ people getting our takeaways and favourite moments from this episode in our weekly newsletter - https://www.theimperfects.com.au/sign-up-to-our-newsletter/ 🩷To host your own Vulnerabilitea House, purchase here - https://www.theimperfects.com.au/shop/ 🩵To purchase our journal (or your novel) My Imperfect Life, click here - https://www.theimperfects.com.au/shop/ The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you’re struggling, please see a healthcare professional, or call lifeline on 13 11 14.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This ain't anything like a normal episode. Because this episode has, wait for it, no guests. That's okay.

• 0:09Speaker 01

  It feels a bit arrogant to me.

• 0:11Speaker 00

  Presented in three vulnerable parts.

• 0:14Speaker 01

  Like something has to give.

• 0:15Speaker 02

  I hope it all comes out right.

• 0:17Speaker 00

  Shit, man. We begin a phone odyssey.

• 0:20Speaker 01

  To break free from our screens. So when do we start? Like, we're starting now?

• 0:24Speaker 00

  We start right now. Josh and Hugh have a pretty big, brotherly conversation they've never had before.

• 0:30Speaker 02

  I'm really glad that we could talk about this.

• 0:32Speaker 00

  And Ryan. That's me. Shares a new hair growth solution. I feel like I've almost got too much hair. With a once in a lifetime opportunity. So Josh, would you like to turn around and show us?

• 0:48Speaker 00

  No guests, just us. Welcome to our trilogy of imperfection. All in one episode. Well, this is shocking. Absolutely shocking episode that we're about to do. Completely different. We're switching things up a little bit. That's okay.

• 1:08Speaker 01

  You won't believe what happens in a couple of minutes.

• 1:11Speaker 02

  So that's some clickbait.

• 1:13Speaker 00

  So today, it's just the three of us.

• 1:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:15Speaker 00

  For a little bit, and then we're gonna play some other stuff. So for those who don't know, yes, we have this podcast, The Imperfects. But over on Patreon, and you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, we have another show that we also do fortnightly called A Little More Imperfects. And it's just the three of us. Usually, sometimes we have Dr. M, sometimes we have Bridge as well. There's lots going on over there.

• 1:42Speaker 02

  So much going on. It's a great place.

• 1:43Speaker 00

  It's a great place.

• 1:44Speaker 02

  So good that we wanted to share it with everyone, or not all of it, but share a little bit of it with everyone. And this episode that we're gonna get to in a minute, there's, I, we've got a little book club called A Bit From A Book That Changed My Life A Bit. I'm gonna be reading a little bit from that book, and it actually evolved into a discussion that is one of the most important, I think, I've ever had on this show with anyone. It was with you, Hugh. And I think our relationship is better for that conversation.

• 2:10Speaker 01

  Definitely.

• 2:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was so good. And hopefully it's helpful for other people because it was very moving for me. And also, Ryan, you have a bit of a hair update.

• 2:19Speaker 00

  Well, long time listeners of the podcast may remember or know that Hugh and I have for a long time been taking hair pingers.

• 2:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, and they work for one of us.

• 2:30Speaker 00

  Well, there's, we spoke about it in the live show a couple of years ago, if you came and saw that. But yeah, finasteride is like a tablet that Hugh and I have been taking for a while to try and reverse the, the hair loss that was drastically happening.

• 2:44Speaker 01

  And I bumped into a friend the other day and he said, oh, have you stopped taking the tablets?

• 2:48Speaker 00

  Oh, no. Is that, is that the male version of saying to a woman, are you pregnant? Yeah, it might be.

• 2:55Speaker 01

  Can I actually, can I go one better than that than are you pregnant? I think I discovered a worse one yesterday than that. I did, I did a worse one. I, is it worse? Listeners can decide.

• 3:04Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 3:04Speaker 01

  I was at a play centre yesterday with my kids.

• 3:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:07Speaker 01

  And there was a lady helping two kids. It was like you had to jump off these like, doesn't matter what it was. But there was a lady helping kids in a play centre. And this child fell and she caught the child and put him back up on the. And I looked at her, I wanted to say, well done. And I looked at her and I went, that's the grandma. And I said, well done grandma.

• 3:30Speaker 00

  Why would you do that?

• 3:32Speaker 01

  Because I was a hundred percent sure.

• 3:33Speaker 00

  Even if it was the grandma, it's such a weird thing to say.

• 3:36Speaker 01

  Well, I think, I like.

• 3:37Speaker 00

  Well done grandma.

• 3:41Speaker 01

  Well, I, I feel like our mum loves being a grandma and I feel like when people call her that, she, she loves that. So I thought it was an, I thought this lady who wasn't the grandma, she was the mum, who was helping the child. I said, no, I said, good save. I said, good save grandma. And she said.

• 3:57Speaker 00

  Oh my God.

• 3:58Speaker 01

  And she said.

• 3:59Speaker 00

  It's such a weird thing to say.

• 4:01Speaker 01

  She said, thank you straight away. And then as she was saying, thank you, she realised she'd been caught. She went, thank you. What? And I said, no, it was a great save.

• 4:08Speaker 00

  Well done, you old hag.

• 4:12Speaker 01

  It was so bad.

• 4:13Speaker 00

  Those brittle bones. Yeah.

• 4:15Speaker 01

  It was so bad.

• 4:16Speaker 00

  Are you all right, old lady?

• 4:17Speaker 01

  It was so bad.

• 4:18Speaker 00

  Oh God.

• 4:19Speaker 01

  It was, and I just wonder, is that worse than pregnant? It was just.

• 4:23Speaker 00

  I don't know if it is worse, but it's, it's up there.

• 4:25Speaker 01

  I was, um, we were there for another hour and a half and every time I looked at it, she looked so sad.

• 4:32Speaker 00

  I mean, technically in your favour, she, she had aged. Every time you looked at her, you're like, she was getting older.

• 4:36Speaker 01

  No, not to the point that I should need to be.

• 4:39Speaker 00

  Yeah. Her daughter, her, her, her child hadn't had a child in that time. So technically you hadn't become correct. Yeah. Okay. So we want it. We, that, thank you, Hugh. Incredible care. What a strange man you are.

• 4:54Speaker 00

  To all of our benefits, really?

• 4:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:55Speaker 01

  Except for that lady.

• 4:56Speaker 00

  Except for that lady. So we'll play this in a moment. Before we play this section of this episode, which was, which, oh yeah. So, oh no, so there is an update on the hair thing. Did I finish that?

• 5:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there'll be an update on the finasteride situation.

• 5:09Speaker 00

  There will be an update on the, on the finasteride situation. There's a very exciting update, which leads to a very exciting moment. Probably one of my favorite moments we've ever had on A Little More Imperfects. Actually, probably one of the funniest things.

• 5:22Speaker 01

  It was pretty amazing.

• 5:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's great. Okay, so before we get there, so The Odyssey, the film is out now.

• 5:31Speaker 01

  Are we doing an ad or?

• 5:32Speaker 00

  No, this is not an ad, actually. It should be, this would have been an incredible ad, but it's not. The only reason I bring it up is because I saw a little clip of an interview with Christopher Nolan, who's the director of The Odyssey and also directed like The Dark Knight and Inception and really great films. He seems like such a distinguished gentleman from what I, he's always wearing a three-piece suit. He's an Englishman. He's just, what a wonderful man.

• 5:58Speaker 01

  He's an ad for Christopher Nolan.

• 6:00Speaker 00

  Well, he should be, he should be. But in this clip, in this interview, he, the interview on 60 Minutes in the States, asked him about the fact that he's never had a smartphone. And this is the crazy part, has never had an email.

• 6:15Speaker 01

  What?

• 6:15Speaker 00

  We've got a clip here. George, I think if you could play it, this is, this is what I'm talking about.

• 6:21Speaker 03

  You don't do email?

• 6:23Speaker 04

  I do not, I never have.

• 6:25Speaker 03

  And why not?

• 6:27Speaker 04

  Oh, no interest.

• 6:28Speaker 03

  Do you get letters? I mean, postal letters with stamps on them?

• 6:33Speaker 04

  I get a lot of, I get a lot of printed emails. People are like, you've got to take a look at this.

• 6:38Speaker 03

  All right.

• 6:39Speaker 04

  But no, I, I've just never been particularly interested in that as a form of communication.

• 6:43Speaker 03

  No smartphone?

• 6:44Speaker 04

  No, I've never had a smartphone. It's getting harder and harder. The return of the QR code has been quite tricky. I carry a flip phone when I travel.

• 6:56Speaker 03

  Is this a way, and I don't mean this in a pejorative sense of any kind, actually in a very complimentary sense. Is this a way of keeping the world at a appropriate distance? And not letting it cave in on you like the rest of us do in the digital world?

• 7:14Speaker 04

  I mean, I think it's more a thing of I haven't let the rest of the world cave in on me. I'm just living the same way that we all used to. So, you know, to me, it's just life as life as normal.

• 7:27Speaker 03

  And I envy you deeply.

• 7:29Speaker 04

  Most people do, which says something about where this has all gone, which is not good. You know, yeah, it's no, I feel very fortunate to not be wearing the digital shackles. But such is life.

• 7:44Speaker 00

  Also, every day he rides a penny farthing to work.

• 7:50Speaker 01

  No, he doesn't. Actually?

• 7:52Speaker 00

  Actually, no. A bit of a joke. But but it did remind me, because again, for people who've listened for a while, some people may remember that a couple of years ago, I went on a bit of a phone journey myself on a phone odyssey. I got rid of my smartphone for it ended up being like 220 days or something, and replaced it with a flip phone, which I called my smug phone. Because every time I was using the flip phone in public, I felt extremely smug. And so that lasted for a while and I ended up going back to the iPhone, but with like restrictions and blocks on it, which is working fine. Now, what I thought we could do, if you guys are up for it, and I think you are, because we have talked about this before the episode.

• 8:36Speaker 00

  But we could go on our own phone odyssey. To try and deal with whatever our weak points are, our vulnerable points of our phone experience. Try and commit to something for a month. And see how we all do it together.

• 8:54Speaker 02

  I think that's the length of the original Odyssey, one month.

• 8:58Speaker 00

  Yeah. So if we, if we can do that, we all choose like one thing or even two things, whatever you want. Something that we're going to commit to, and then people listening can go on their own phone Odyssey, do it at the same time. It can all be on an Odyssey together.

• 9:11Speaker 01

  Oh God, we need this. Everyone, we need this. Let's all do it.

• 9:14Speaker 00

  Hugh, have you, have you thought about what you wanna?

• 9:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. So mine is inspired by the events of this morning. A terrible, just, those are a bad morning this morning. I think anyone who has neurodivergent kids knows that like, your life is about trying to make their world easier. And you spend so much time trying to set up experiences so that they can succeed. And it's very, very difficult to do.

• 9:40Speaker 01

  And our child wanted to do a Lego camp, a day of a Lego camp on the school holidays, which is like, which I was so supportive of, but also know that a lot of work has to go into making sure it's successful. So speaking to the organizers, making sure they understand what our child's like. And then also preparing them with photos of what's going to happen and the structure of the day. Getting a friend to go along that, that is really good with them and getting their parents to book them in on the same day. All that kind of stuff. And so I did all that and I, it was for Friday and I, this coming Friday, so two days time. And I'd said to them the day before, we're going to spend half an hour together going through all the photos of what's going to happen when you're there. I'll tell you who the teacher is. I'll tell you what's going to happen, all this planning.

• 10:23Speaker 01

  And, and I just got a 10 o'clock this morning, got a message from the other dad who I'd booked it in with just saying, where's your child? And it was for today. So I just, cause I'm useless at admin, I'd got the wrong day. And then had to tell our child it was, they'd missed, well, it was, do you want to go? And it was, yeah, of course, but where is it? Who's going to be there? Like there was no preparation, which is an absolute nightmare for a child on the spectrum to have. No, they need like a full 24 hours to prepare themselves once they've learned what's happening. And it was just, we're going to take you there now. I'd left, I'd already left to go to work. So it fell on Penny to deal with. I could just hear tears in the background screaming, I don't want to go, but I have to go.

• 11:07Speaker 01

  Is my friend there? Did they need me there? It was horrific. And I just like, I was just so disappointed. I was just so upset at myself and so upset at. With the position I put our child in through my ordinary admin skills.

• 11:26Speaker 01

  And I just, I was like sitting in the car and I was just, I was just like, something has to, I can't keep like, I do this kind of stuff all the time. Despite how hard I'm trying, I just, I continually stuff things up for people in my life. I feel, I feel like I'm continually letting people down in so many areas. And I just had this feeling this morning of like, something, like something has to give. And then I was looking at all the things in my life, like nothing, there's nothing that can give. And then I was literally, as I was thinking that, I was scrolling, like I was on Instagram to scroll, half thinking something has to give, but also just watching the demise of England cricket on Instagram. Then I was like, no, well, this is, this is what has to give, like this is it, this is the thing.

• 12:04Speaker 00

  What, the phone?

• 12:05Speaker 01

  My phone has to fuck off, like I just.

• 12:07Speaker 00

  The whole thing?

• 12:08Speaker 01

  Well, as far as my kids are concerned, yeah. Because I think the thing that, like, I get down to myself if I let the team down here, the podcast or the Resonance Project or, but when I really, really, really struggle is when I let my family down, which I did this morning so bad. I put Penny in such a bad position, put my child in such a vulnerable position. They're there now, I don't know what the experience is like, I'm checking my phone every two seconds, waiting for a phone call because they are not prepared. Psychologically for this camp that now on for a day. And I was thinking back to the episode we had with, with Joe Brumm when Hamish was on and we were talking about the fact that I was just trying to, I was just thinking like,

• 12:48Speaker 01

  every single time your child looks at you and you're on your phone, the message they get is whatever's on your phone is more important than I am. That's like, that's what they say. And I would say honestly, that's never ever been the case. There's never ever been anything on my phone that I can honestly say, yeah, that's more important than my kids ever. And yet they had that experience hundreds of times a day, they would get the message that that's more important than, than me. Whatever's happening is more important than me. And I'm just like.

• 13:14Speaker 00

  You just, you just wonder whether or not like when humanity looks back on this era.

• 13:21Speaker 00

  Of time, like the smartphone era that will end at some point. You just wonder whether or not we'll look back and go like, what were we doing?

• 13:28Speaker 01

  It's like the photo of cigarettes, like parents smoking cigarettes when they're breastfeeding. Like, it's just to me, I've, but anyway, I'm, I'm letting my kids down at the moment. I'm making bad mistakes and I'm not saying it's all because of my phone, but my phone is something that, that, that can give, I can, I can.

• 13:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's, it's sucking up a bit of time and destruction.

• 13:47Speaker 01

  So for the next month, my pledge to, to everyone, mainly to my kids, to my, mainly to my kids.

• 13:54Speaker 00

  Incidentless now. Yeah. Not an ad.

• 13:58Speaker 01

  My pledge is that my, my kids will not see me on my phone for the next month.

• 14:02Speaker 00

  Oh, wow.

• 14:04Speaker 01

  They will not see me on my phone. So.

• 14:05Speaker 00

  That's amazing.

• 14:06Speaker 01

  That is, I'm already nervous about a few things that we're going on holiday and I feel like catching a plane, everything like the amount of like my admins weakness and you don't have to print out all these things in advance.

• 14:16Speaker 00

  Oh, but that's great. This is, so this is the incredible thing. This is what I remember from when I did my smug phone thing is that you, you, you bound to come up against an obstacle and you'll always find a reason why it's like, oh, actually I can't because I need my phone for this thing. But the best way to imagine it is like, it's like some weird genie's come to you and said like, you're not allowed to use your phone anymore. And then, and then you're like, but, but, and then, and then the genie's like, no, figure out a solution. And so you've just got to figure out a solution.

• 14:47Speaker 01

  And this is wildly challenging for me because that's school holidays, that on school holidays, it's not like, if it was school, I could go without my phone till nine in the morning and then go without it till nine o'clock at night when I get home. This is like.

• 14:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's a challenge.

• 14:58Speaker 01

  This is going to be really hard, but like if I need to remember my phone, I can go on my phone. I just have to make sure that I will literally go in the car.

• 15:04Speaker 00

  True.

• 15:05Speaker 01

  And I'll do something in the car or I'll go to my bedroom and I'll just, but they will not see me with my phone and I'm going to tell them and I need them to, need to think of some kind of penalty. I don't know what it'll be, but.

• 15:16Speaker 00

  Shame.

• 15:18Speaker 02

  Shame's always good. Yeah. If it's anything I've learned from this show, shame is a good.

• 15:23Speaker 00

  Yeah. Hit him with some shame.

• 15:25Speaker 01

  So that's my pledge.

• 15:27Speaker 02

  Beautifully shared here. That's heartbreaking.

• 15:29Speaker 01

  That's awful. It's just awful. I feel very distracted today because I'm just thinking about my child there. And I just, because they felt like they couldn't let their friend down by not going. But for them, it was just their worst nightmare to go to something they don't know what it is. I don't know what's happening. So, yeah.

• 15:43Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 15:44Speaker 01

  That's mine.

• 15:44Speaker 00

  Great. Josh?

• 15:47Speaker 02

  Well, I, I was thinking that I will, I mean, it was last night, it's, it's nowhere near as emotional as what you said. But when we're at your house last night and I was playing with my youngest and he was bringing all these transformers into, I was sitting on a couch in one room. He was going into another room, bring him out to show me. Every time he left the room, I'd get on my phone and then he'd run back in and see me on my phone. I'd put it away. Happened about five times. And I'm like, I'm not playing. Like, I'm not, I'm not engaging in this activity. And I, but I was realising it was wrong, but then I was like, I'll just put it in and just make sure when I hear him coming, I'll put it away. So he doesn't see me, which I was okay at, but it still means that I'm not actually evolving the game.

• 16:29Speaker 02

  He's not getting a proper response from me. There's just, I'm trying to, it's like I'm trying to be his dad with like one hand tied behind my back.

• 16:37Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 16:37Speaker 02

  And there's got to be a cost there. So that was a pretty obvious example of why I can't have a phone on me when I'm around my kids. So my, my plan is to leave my phone at the office.

• 16:49Speaker 01

  Whoa.

• 16:50Speaker 02

  For a month.

• 16:51Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 16:52Speaker 02

  So I can use it during the day.

• 16:54Speaker 01

  That's more extreme than mine, really, because.

• 16:56Speaker 02

  I'm a bit nervous. I haven't, I haven't told Sophie yet. And there's prob, I just don't want it to become a, a mental load thing where the ad like, where a lot of the admin and stuff gets, gets passed on to her. Like I have to say, well, can you be the contact for all this?

• 17:09Speaker 00

  Well, actually, you know, because you mentioned yesterday when you said that you're going to do that and you said you're going to get a home phone, a landline, what you can do, get the landline, but then there's a feature on your iPhone, you can call forward. So you can forward all calls to the landline. So anyone who calls you on your mobile when you're not at work, it'll just go straight to the landline.

• 17:28Speaker 02

  Well, definitely do that. And I, and I think logistically, I will have my laptop. So like,

• 17:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:34Speaker 02

  If I need to contact someone, if I need to do something, I can get my laptop out to do it because that's all synced up. But I just won't have a phone in my pocket around my kids for a month because it'll be at work.

• 17:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm so happy to hear that. That makes me, I love that because I, I know that thing of like, well, I could check my phone quickly before they come back in and then, and even if you do manage to do that, you're not like, so I should reference what I was saying before with the episode with Joe Brahman and,

• 17:59Speaker 02

  yeah, yeah.

• 18:00Speaker 01

  And Hamish, but, but I referenced mum's story about how mum said to me that she saw everything we saw. She smelled everything we smelled, we heard everything we heard because she was properly there with us. And that's, that to me is like that example you gave.

• 18:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:13Speaker 01

  That's not saying everything he says, that's like just convey, yeah, so.

• 18:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'll be interested to see how it goes. I, um, and maybe we should do an episode on Patreon or something to, to report back on our findings and our experience.

• 18:26Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 18:26Speaker 02

  Um, but, uh, I, I'm, I'm looking forward to, because I think I use it as a distraction, but I'm looking forward to, it's not like, I'm still going to need a break from parenting. It's not like I can go from like, no phone to just being a hundred percent present dad. Cause I think we all need breaks from it because it's a big job. But I look forward to saying to them more consciously, like saying, guys, I'm just going to go outside for 10 minutes. Cause I need to, because I know my brain needs a break, but I'm going to, I don't know, pull out weeds or read a book or do something wholesome and good for my brain. And they'll see me actually taking control of that urge rather than,

• 19:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:03Speaker 02

  it being controlled by a phone. I think it'll be a good chance to model to kids that it's okay to say, dad needs five minutes to himself. I'll be back in a few minutes.

• 19:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. And the other thing, the other thing it does is like, we're not far off. And we are, but it's going to come very quickly. Um, it's on the horizon for us, our kids saying, when can we have a phone?

• 19:21Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 19:21Speaker 01

  And then us going, no, you, you can't have one or, or when they have it, trying to put in place guidelines again, them going, you are always on your phone. How can you, so, yeah, just, this is, I don't want people thinking, oh, this is just a parenting, this is because you're going to talk about yours in a minute, Ryan. It's for all of us, for, for, it'll benefit so many people around us, but for us specifically and, and for any parents out there, I, I urge you to, to set yourself for some kind of, um, odyssey challenge for the next month.

• 19:47Speaker 02

  Yeah. Okay. So, um, my, my odyssey, uh, so for people who know, when I had my smug phone, my,

• 19:56Speaker 00

  Part of the plan of how I would sort of like live my life is I would, I bought an iPad mini. So which people laugh at because I was like, why do you just buying another device to replace the other? But the idea was that I'd carry my smug phone everywhere. And then if I ever was going somewhere where I needed access to something, I would put the iPad mini in my bag. Since then, the iPad mini has now become the problem. Like that's now at home and I'm always, because it's small, I can just like take it around with me. It's a big phone.

• 20:25Speaker 01

  You need to buy a smart TV.

• 20:26Speaker 00

  Yeah. And because on my iPhone, I use the brick, you know, the, that blocks all the apps. So I don't have a problem necessarily scrolling on my iPhone. I'm now scrolling on the iPad mini. So, so, so this, this iPad mini, this will stay at work. Yeah. The other big thing that I've heard, I've heard a few people talk about, like experts talk about, and I wish I had like quotes and stats on this, but makes sense. We're never bored anymore. And as someone with no kids, I do have the opportunity to be bored quite a lot. You know, I can just sit there and just do nothing. And also I was thinking about like, when would, when were we bored before smartphones?

• 21:10Speaker 00

  And it's usually like waiting, whenever we're waiting for something. So it's like waiting for our coffee. It's walking somewhere or it's like if you're at a restaurant or somewhere and then your person you're there with goes to the bathroom and you're waiting at the table. All those moments, whenever I sense myself waiting, I'm going to resist the urge to pull out my phone. So I'm going to use the waiting as an opportunity to be bored more. Because, and again, I wish I had a stat on this or something or research, but we do know that being bored is so good for our brains.

• 21:46Speaker 00

  Cause it needs to have a memory of Maria Roberto, psychologist, when she was on saying that like these days we do way more receiving than reflecting. And we should be reflecting more. And so what that means is instead of receiving information on a phone or on a computer or even reading, instead of receiving this information, use that time to reflect on the thing you just did or think about the person you just were with or. And whenever I do that, I just come up with ideas. I give myself like the space to go like, oh, maybe I'll do that. Or you just think about, what do I need to do? And you're just, you're thinking about your life and like, oh, that person's birthday is coming up. I might get them a present or whatever, you know? So that's when you do that.

• 22:31Speaker 00

  And then the other thing, the third thing I'm going to do is I'm going, instead of having my phone on my person, if I have a bag, the phone lives in the bag. And where the phone was, I'm going to put a little notebook in there with a pen. So any ideas I have, I write in the notebook as opposed to inputting it into my phone.

• 22:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:51Speaker 00

  Because the inputting into your phone means that you then you're in. So I'm going to get a, I've looked into this, I'm going to get like a little A6 notebook and I'm going to cut it to the exact size of a phone. So it feels, so it feels like the same size as a phone.

• 23:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:06Speaker 00

  And that's going to sit where my phone would normally sit.

• 23:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:08Speaker 00

  So when I habitually go to pick it up, I'll find my notebook in there.

• 23:12Speaker 01

  Awesome.

• 23:14Speaker 00

  So that's, so the odyssey begins.

• 23:15Speaker 01

  So when do we start? Like, we're starting now?

• 23:17Speaker 00

  We start right now.

• 23:18Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 23:18Speaker 02

  I need to organize a home phone.

• 23:19Speaker 00

  True. But you can, you can, you can go get that today, could you?

• 23:24Speaker 02

  Possibly, yeah. I was thinking today, we're recording this on a Wednesday. We finish work, we don't work on Fridays. I was thinking of maybe I leave my phone at work on Thursday afternoon.

• 23:34Speaker 00

  Great.

• 23:34Speaker 02

  And my, the weekend's the start for me.

• 23:36Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 23:36Speaker 00

  Let's all start then.

• 23:38Speaker 02

  Okay, so tomorrow night, Thursday night.

• 23:40Speaker 00

  Thursday night, what time?

• 23:42Speaker 02

  Uh, well, I'll be leaving work at probably five.

• 23:44Speaker 00

  Five, great. So five P M. Thursday, the odyssey begins.

• 23:48Speaker 01

  Yep. I'm going to start now.

• 23:50Speaker 00

  Oh, wow.

• 23:51Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 23:51Speaker 00

  What a rebel.

• 23:52Speaker 01

  Well, no, it just feels weird to say all that about. And then go home and just go, well, I'm going to go nuts for the next 24 hours.

• 24:01Speaker 00

  That's good. Yeah, good point. Would you, Hugh, out of interest, would you tell your kids that you're doing this?

• 24:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I'm going to say, I'd like that they need to absolutely.

• 24:09Speaker 00

  Hold you accountable.

• 24:10Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 24:10Speaker 00

  Okay, great.

• 24:11Speaker 01

  Because they will love doing that.

• 24:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's fun. Okay, cool.

• 24:13Speaker 01

  They'll do things like grab it and try and push it into my face to try and make me look at it. They'll want me to fail so much.

• 24:20Speaker 02

  That's an odyssey. You've got to have obstacles in an odyssey.

• 24:23Speaker 00

  Exactly. A hero's journey begins Thursday, 5pm.

• 24:29Speaker 00

  Okay, guys. Good luck. Well, let's, let's now play the actual, the, this is part of the episode of A Little More Imperfects.

• 24:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I just want to add to the reason we're doing this. I didn't say anything before just because I was too distracted by how dumber I was in myself for this morning. But like this Patreon thing we started, like, we are genuinely having so much fun doing it and we're so proud of the episodes. And every time we do it, I'm like, God, it's a real pity that everyone doesn't get to hear this. And so that is a big part of us wanting you guys to hear this because we do love these episodes. They mean a lot to us. We're very proud of them. And so we're just like, well, we can put one on the main feed.

• 25:02Speaker 00

  It's kind of, yeah, it's trying to find that balance between like, we want everyone to hear it, but at the same time, we can't, the people who are like paying money for it, it's unfair to them if we give it all to everyone for free. So this is a taste.

• 25:14Speaker 01

  I feel like we know them all personally. They get in touch with us on Patreon and they're so lovely that they'll be okay. I reckon they'll be fine.

• 25:20Speaker 00

  They'll be fine?

• 25:20Speaker 02

  Great. Good to know. Yep.

• 25:22Speaker 00

  That's great to know. That's your call, Hugh.

• 25:25Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 25:25Speaker 00

  All right. Let's now magically transport ourselves to A Little More Imperfects.

• 25:39Speaker 00

  Okay, we move on and we will, Josh, you've got your book and we're going to get to the book really shortly. Before we get to the book though, just want to take us back to the year 2020.

• 25:51Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 25:52Speaker 00

  Now, there was one very significant thing that happened in 2020, but one of the other significant things that happened in the year 2020 was a moment on the podcast. Longtime listeners may remember this. It became an ongoing thing that we talked about a lot and were questioned about a lot. Let's go back and listen to what happened.

• 26:13Speaker 01

  And I went to the doctor and he put me on these tablets that stop your hair falling out. And I didn't really lose hair since then. And then my friends, I can't remember who came up, maybe it's me, I came up with the term hair pingers, these tablets for your hairs, for your hair to stop them falling out. And ever since I had that, like, being able to call it hair pingers and tell people I take these tablets, the shame was gone because I gave it, I got rid of the silence that went with it and the judgment that I gave myself that you're not worthy of connection because you're going bald.

• 26:40Speaker 00

  You know what is like crazy, like my heart is racing at the moment because I take those tablets every day.

• 26:48Speaker 01

  You do?

• 26:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, every day.

• 26:50Speaker 01

  They're working.

• 26:51Speaker 00

  And I, and I've never, and I've never spoken about it ever. And I had the same, like I've been listening to this whole time and I had the same shame, like I was losing my hair. Oh, like years ago. And then someone told me and I, and I was so shameful about it and I hated it and I didn't know what to do. I was panicking. Well, because there's this weird shame around losing hair.

• 27:13Speaker 01

  My gosh, I, well, all I feel like saying is they are definitely working.

• 27:18Speaker 00

  What I did for such a long time is I would, to get my tablets, my hair pingers, I would go to the same chemist. Because I, for whatever reason, felt like I could trust that the chemist wouldn't tell anybody.

• 27:35Speaker 00

  So, okay, we're back in the room.

• 27:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:37Speaker 00

  You can sort of hear the nerves in my voice.

• 27:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:40Speaker 00

  When I was saying that, cause it was, that was a really, in terms of like moments on the podcast for me, that was enormous. Because it was like this secret shame that I'd been hiding for 10 years, probably. So since then, you know, like lots of people have asked, you know, about like the hair pingers and we, the first live show, we did a whole thing about hair pingers. And finasteride is the, are the pingers that Hugh and I have been taking for, what, since we were five, six years old? And so, and so that's, and they've always like worked and, you know, and if you are losing your hair and you're just getting finasteride or don't say about it, go to a GP. You have to get a prescription.

• 28:19Speaker 01

  It's a drug and it's a drug.

• 28:21Speaker 00

  There can be side effects. Yeah, true. So do all the necessary things. So I'd been doing that for a long time and it was sort of working. But the way that finasteride is designed to work is it's designed to stop, it's as soon as like, it's designed to sort of stop it where it's at. So it's to stop the loss.

• 28:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:36Speaker 00

  It doesn't promote new growth.

• 28:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:40Speaker 00

  So anyway, so then I heard about this other product that you could also use, that a lot of people use in tandem with finasteride called minoxidil. And Hugh, you, you, you do minoxidil. So minoxidil, you can do it a few different ways, but it comes in like a drop form. And every night you're supposed to drop, drop it in your, the problem areas and that promotes growth. So a lot of people do both.

• 29:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:03Speaker 00

  So I started doing both and shit, man.

• 29:12Speaker 00

  This shit's good.

• 29:15Speaker 00

  Is this an ad for Menoxdil? Again, speak to your doctor. Yeah. There, you know, all the stuff, you've got to like, you've got to be responsible with it.

• 29:23Speaker 00

  There are side effects. There are side effects, all of that. Yeah. Definitely, but it works. God, does it. I mean, for me, it works. And so for the longest time, up until really only like a couple of weeks, a month ago, for such a long time, even though it looks like I've got lots of hair because I place it very strategically. But whenever my hair gets wet or the wind blows up or I get, I get really like self-conscious about it. But now it's like feeling great to the extent where I feel like I've almost got too much hair.

• 30:01Speaker 00

  I mean, I've got more than enough, more than enough. And so what I thought was like, well, cause I, my heart goes out to guys.

• 30:12Speaker 00

  Or to guys who this is like a, like this is a thing that really affects like men's confidence. And it is a, it's a, it's a tough, it's a tough thing to go through. And so, so there's a part of this which is jokey, but then there's a part of this which is true. I truly sincere, I truly feel for men. But what I thought I could do was like, okay, so, you know, never, for the longest time, this has not been the case, but as of now, I got hair to spare.

• 30:46Speaker 00

  And when you have an abundance of something, it's always good to share. Yeah. So if you are an Almy subscriber or you live, you're an Almy subscriber and live with a man who has similar looking hair to mine and could do with a little bit extra, I'll give you some. Because haring is caring.

• 31:11Speaker 00

  And this is, I know, like, I, I, I'm not kidding myself to think that anyone's gonna like, stick this onto their head or anything, but it's as a gestural token of solidarity. And to say like, hey, bro, I'm with you.

• 31:26Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 31:26Speaker 00

  Have some of my hair. So the logistics of this has yet to be sorted out.

• 31:32Speaker 00

  But what I'm, what I'm thinking at this point, if you wanna be in the draw to win a little bit of my hair, a little bit, like a lock, like, you know, like a, a curl.

• 31:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:42Speaker 00

  Little bit.

• 31:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:43Speaker 00

  Then.

• 31:44Speaker 01

  A little bit more hair.

• 31:44Speaker 00

  A little bit more. A little more hair, that's great. Okay, so this is a little more hair.

• 31:50Speaker 01

  A little more hair.

• 31:51Speaker 00

  Love it, love it, love it. We're building the story.

• 31:56Speaker 01

  Why not?

• 31:57Speaker 00

  So yeah, so a little more hair, that's great, that's the title.

• 32:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:00Speaker 00

  So if you want a little more hair.

• 32:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:02Speaker 00

  From my head, cause I can spare it. Things are going great. Um, contact the show, if you're on Patreon, you can comment on Patreon and make sure you include, I, I could do with a little more hair.

• 32:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:17Speaker 00

  Yeah. That's the phrase, I could do with a little more hair.

• 32:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:21Speaker 00

  And if you're writing an email, make sure the subject heading is, I could do with a little more hair.

• 32:25Speaker 01

  But I think, yeah, I, it, it might not be for you, it could be for your partner who doesn't feel confident.

• 32:29Speaker 00

  Even still, you could do it to gift it.

• 32:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, but that's the, that's the phrase that Bella can then search when she's going through the emails.

• 32:37Speaker 00

  I could do with a little more hair.

• 32:39Speaker 01

  So this is for Almy listeners.

• 32:42Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 32:43Speaker 01

  Who have hair like you.

• 32:44Speaker 00

  This is an exclusive offer.

• 32:45Speaker 01

  What about for Almy hosts who have hair not like you? Can they apply?

• 32:50Speaker 00

  Yes, they sure can.

• 32:51Speaker 01

  Oh, good.

• 32:51Speaker 00

  They sure can, just go to the website here.

• 32:52Speaker 01

  Cause I would stick it to my head.

• 32:53Speaker 00

  Would you? Well, that, great, I mean, if, if it could help you.

• 32:57Speaker 01

  I'm into the competition.

• 32:58Speaker 00

  A, a, a, a, a little black curl.

• 33:03Speaker 01

  In the car park.

• 33:04Speaker 00

  In the desert.

• 33:09Speaker 01

  It's a bit harsh in the car parks, but yeah.

• 33:11Speaker 00

  I would look great. I think it would look great. I mean, your hair does look great, Hugh. I love your hair. I think it's looking excellent. Yeah.

• 33:16Speaker 02

  It's looking really good.

• 33:17Speaker 01

  Would you have it if I had to swap that?

• 33:21Speaker 00

  Sometimes it's nice. You go to an art gallery and you see a piece of art and you're like, that's incredible. Wouldn't have it in my house.

• 33:28Speaker 00

  But I can appreciate it. It's nice to come and visit it every now and again. And that's, your hair is beautiful. I love looking at it.

• 33:35Speaker 02

  I, I have a hair issue at the moment.

• 33:38Speaker 00

  Of course.

• 33:39Speaker 02

  Where, yeah, my, um, I'm just slightly vulnerable to.

• 33:45Speaker 00

  Are we gonna, are we gonna, okay, continue for everyone? Oh my god.

• 33:50Speaker 02

  So my, I don't know.

• 33:51Speaker 00

  This is better, Hugh, so.

• 33:55Speaker 02

  This has only been happening in the last sort of six months and I'm a bit concerned that it's gonna keep going. I really, hmm.

• 34:00Speaker 01

  Sorry, this is a vulnerable thing to share, but it's a lot of things that you really fucked it.

• 34:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. Um, but my, I, I think I've got a form of alopecia happening on my eyebrow. So I'm currently, my left eyebrow is kind of disappearing.

• 34:14Speaker 00

  Which I didn't notice until you pointed it out to me. I think because you've got blonde hair.

• 34:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's kind of like, I've got light haired eyebrows regardless, but eagle eyed viewers will be able to see on the camera that this one is kind of.

• 34:24Speaker 01

  It's like Louis Theroux. I think Louis Theroux has gone through the same thing. Yeah, exact same thing.

• 34:27Speaker 02

  Okay, yeah. And, um, I'm booked in with a, um, dermatologist to get it checked out and doing that kind of stuff. But the waitlist to get into a dermatologist is monumental. It's like months. So I'm worried I'm not gonna have any eyebrows by the time I get in. So maybe.

• 34:47Speaker 01

  Cancel that appointment.

• 34:49Speaker 00

  I mean, for shits and giggles, does anyone have any scissors?

• 34:56Speaker 00

  But actually, all right, we're, we're gonna, we've, we've just taken a quick break to go and find, uh, some scissors and some sticky tape. Now, we, this is, this is all done with respect.

• 35:09Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 35:09Speaker 00

  And Josh, you've, you're comfortable with this?

• 35:11Speaker 02

  And, yeah.

• 35:12Speaker 00

  And this is not to make light of anyone, like, obviously struggling, alopecia is a really. Tricky thing and would affect a lot of people.

• 35:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:20Speaker 00

  This is something really new to you.

• 35:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:22Speaker 00

  We did not plan this, I assure everyone.

• 35:23Speaker 02

  No.

• 35:24Speaker 00

  Um, and yeah.

• 35:26Speaker 02

  And I feel like at the moment, kind of darker eyebrows with lighter hair is, is kind of cool.

• 35:31Speaker 00

  It is.

• 35:31Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 35:31Speaker 00

  It is. It's, it's the Cara Delevingne of it all. Am I right, Belle?

• 35:37Speaker 00

  I reckon that's like a 2012 reference. Let's not worry about timelines. 2012, 2026, all same difference.

• 35:43Speaker 01

  I'm worried about where you want me to cut this hair from.

• 35:45Speaker 00

  Um, maybe take it, yeah, take it from up here.

• 35:48Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 35:49Speaker 00

  But no.

• 35:49Speaker 01

  Josh, how long would you like your?

• 35:50Speaker 00

  We want like a, we want a good ringlet though.

• 35:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, we want a ring.

• 35:53Speaker 01

  Made a curl.

• 35:54Speaker 00

  We want a ring. Here, here, about this one.

• 35:56Speaker 01

  You don't want that one?

• 35:57Speaker 00

  No, I can spare that here. Yeah. Okay, great. So Hugh is currently cutting a little ringlet off my hair because I have, I have hair to spare. Great. Cool. So let's now, let's now, before you do that, Hugh, let's create like a little anchor point for this, so to hold it all together. Just a bit of arts and crafts here at a little more imperfection.

• 36:19Speaker 00

  Um, okay, so that's, that's then, so Hugh, if you now stick this

• 36:26Speaker 00

  to Josh's eyebrow, um, to fill in the space that he needs hair, uh, and bearing in mind that anyone, anyone can write in. Uh, I could do with a little more hair. Uh, Josh could do it a little more hair and he's bravely, um, he's taken a bit of mind to see how it looks, see if it helps. Could be the new look for Josh. How's that look, Hugh?

• 36:49Speaker 01

  I'm pretty happy with it.

• 36:50Speaker 00

  So Josh, would you like to turn around and show us your?

• 36:57Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 37:00Speaker 00

  How's it look?

• 37:00Speaker 02

  It looks good.

• 37:03Speaker 02

  It looks good.

• 37:04Speaker 01

  Looks real.

• 37:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:05Speaker 01

  Probably going a bit high with the placement. He just looks surprised.

• 37:11Speaker 00

  Unfortunately, this sticky tape is doing a lot of the, it's, it's, it's drawing the eye. And I think you have gone a bit high.

• 37:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, it just looks like a surprised.

• 37:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:18Speaker 01

  It just looks like a surprised.

• 37:21Speaker 00

  Cartoon eyebrow. Okay. So, okay. So now that it's.

• 37:24Speaker 02

  So you too could look like this.

• 37:26Speaker 00

  You too. If you need a little bit of hair, if you need a little bit, a little more hair.

• 37:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:31Speaker 00

  I can spare the hair. Haring is caring.

• 37:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:33Speaker 00

  Um, contact us and we'll, and we'll sort you out. I mean, not for everyone though. I'm not giving away like hundreds of pieces of hair because then I will need some of that back.

• 37:41Speaker 02

  A little more hair to spare.

• 37:42Speaker 00

  I've only got a little more hair to spare.

• 37:43Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 37:43Speaker 00

  And so, uh, yeah, we will choose one or two, um, people, uh, who will, will be sent some of my hair.

• 37:50Speaker 02

  Great.

• 37:51Speaker 00

  Thanks. Thank you, Josh, so much. And Josh, that is very, actually very, um, that's a big thing for you to talk about.

• 37:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:57Speaker 00

  I'm sorry.

• 37:58Speaker 02

  I didn't expect the moment I brought this up on the show, no, it fixed so quickly. So that's great.

• 38:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:03Speaker 02

  Good to, when you share something vulnerable, sometimes it, you just need to fix it.

• 38:06Speaker 00

  And you know what? Speak to dermatologists. Maybe this is a solution.

• 38:10Speaker 01

  Go in like that and say, do you know what the problem is?

• 38:14Speaker 00

  Just walk in and go, guess.

• 38:17Speaker 00

  Um, okay. Let's, let's move on, Josh. Maybe you can remove that now.

• 38:22Speaker 02

  Okay. Thank you.

• 38:22Speaker 00

  But that is, uh, very nice. Wow. Uh, Josh, now for those who remember, um, a few episodes ago, we launched a, a new segment that we hope that will run for many years, a competitor to Oprah's Book Club. Slightly different, uh, in the sense that this is a little bit from a book that changed my life a bit. Club.

• 38:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:45Speaker 00

  Correct.

• 38:46Speaker 01

  And I just, and when you shared, you did the midnight library last time.

• 38:49Speaker 00

  Yep. By Matt Hague.

• 38:50Speaker 01

  Yep. And it was the, the premise around when you die, you go to a library and it's got every single other life choice that you could have made and you can go and have the opportunity to live that. I've actually, I was so interested to actually, I'm, I'm nearly finished.

• 39:04Speaker 00

  Oh, really?

• 39:04Speaker 01

  I've been reading it. Yeah.

• 39:05Speaker 00

  Oh, what do you think?

• 39:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. I love it.

• 39:06Speaker 00

  Isn't it great?

• 39:07Speaker 01

  Absolutely love it. Yeah.

• 39:08Speaker 00

  Oh, that's cool.

• 39:08Speaker 01

  So I, I, before I go to sleep, I read it and then I lie in bed and think about, I can't help but think about other choices.

• 39:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:13Speaker 01

  I could have made them, what would happen?

• 39:14Speaker 00

  And you think, what I did as well, I thought about that book. I still think about it, but I often look at other people and like observe people who's like, I don't know them, but I just see them in the street, doing whatever they're doing, working wherever they're working. And I can't help but think, I wonder what your other midnight library books are.

• 39:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:30Speaker 00

  Like what led you to hear, what, how would your life be?

• 39:32Speaker 01

  Do you hope it actually happens in real life? If you died and you ended up in a library of your?

• 39:36Speaker 00

  Oh yeah, I'd love that. All right, let's, um, let's get into the segment.

• 39:55Speaker 00

  Let's revisit that.

• 39:59Speaker 01

  I think if Dracula, if Dracula was our first guest, that would work.

• 40:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't really know why, George, why we got to that opener. Okay, Josh, what is, what's the book? Run us through it.

• 40:08Speaker 02

  The book that I brought is How Proust Can Change Your Life by Alain de Batton. And I'm, I'm quite nervous about this segment for a few reasons. One is that I, to be honest, I don't really read that much. And I, it's been a long time since I've like read a book, which is kind of shameful to say. And so this book changed my life quite a long time ago. And it was really interesting to pick it up and read it because I can't believe what a different person I am now. So reading it now, I don't think it would have really any impact on me. But at that point in my life, it was really profound and it really shaped who I was.

• 40:53Speaker 02

  And now looking back at the lesson I learnt, I can see how many things and how many things through this show can be sort of, um, taken back to the point of reading this book and I hadn't even realised. So it's kind of quite profound for me to say it because I probably read it 10 to 15 years ago, I think.

• 41:12Speaker 00

  I mean, you might, you might even say that one of your midnight library books is the version of your life where you didn't read that book.

• 41:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, true. Yeah, absolutely. And I'm also a bit nervous because a lot of it is about you and me, Hugh. And so I, in going through this, I, I hope that it's not, I hope it all comes out right. Cause it feels like some delicate areas to go. So, um.

• 41:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, but to give a bit of background, I think it's probably best to start with me. And then I can go to the book.

• 41:50Speaker 02

  I was shocked rereading. It put me back in a state that I was was, and I was really surprised at how low my self esteem was in my mid to early twenties. And the kind of things I used to say to myself a lot, being a sort of a waste of potential talent, a sort of perpetual loser.

• 42:09Speaker 02

  I wrote down here the other day, one who overthought everything and under committed to everything else.

• 42:14Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 42:15Speaker 02

  And if there was a way to sort of have a go at myself in my twenties, I would find it.

• 42:23Speaker 02

  Not to say that I didn't have a lot of fun in my twenties as well and had.

• 42:28Speaker 02

  Like I met the love of my life. I travelled. I did so many good things and there were some real, there were so much ups, but there were also a lot of downs. And I think the sort of default state when I was alone was one of. One of low self esteem to say. And in contrast to that, when I looked at you, and I think one of the reasons why I'm nervous to talk about this is because. I think I know so much more about you now as a human, as an adult human being, but I think at the time, even though we were so close, I held. Onto this view of you as just perfect in every way, which I developed, I think, when I was. I've had it in my mind for as long as I can remember.

• 43:12Speaker 02

  I sort of looked at you as the most impressive person I'd ever met. And I worshipped you and I still do, but just in, I think, a more realistic, realistic way. But yeah, I can remember this from back, God, I have this memory when I was sort of eight, I reckon, eight or nine, maybe even younger. At school, telling some kids that you played in the Sheffield Shield cricket. Which is the like national cricket competition for the best cricketers in the country, sort of top hundred cricketers.

• 43:45Speaker 00

  Did you?

• 43:45Speaker 02

  No, because I remember a kid who knew you saying, no, he doesn't. He plays Dowling Shield, which was like the local cricket, like under sixteen comp.

• 43:54Speaker 01

  But I felt Still hard to get into, but yeah.

• 43:58Speaker 02

  But I felt, I can still remember the anger at you, even though I knew immediately I'd gotten it wrong. But the idea that anyone would shatter this image of, that I had of Hugh as the, the perfect person and the most amazing person in the world. I still feel this sort of visceral anger at someone shattering that image, even though he was a hundred percent right.

• 44:18Speaker 01

  I felt anger at the person who said he doesn't play.

• 44:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, because it's like, how dare you question his perfection, my brother's perfection.

• 44:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay.

• 44:27Speaker 02

  And I think as I grew up, I, um, that when you, when, when your role model is perfect, you want to emulate that. And I've sort of talked about this a bit on the show. But I, I made a lot of choices to sort of try and be school captain at the school and try and be really good at cricket. And you, when, when the person you're trying to emulate is perfect, in inverted commas, you have no option but to fail every single time. And so it wasn't until I got into my twenties that I started to sort of think, you've got to find yourself here, as I think a lot of people do in their twenties. And I've talked about this a bit on the show and I drank a lot and partied a lot. And I think I spent way too much of my twenties hungover, which meant that I was in a pretty down state trying to work that stuff out.

• 45:12Speaker 02

  And so that's all kind of background to where I was when I wrote this book. Right. When I read this book.

• 45:21Speaker 01

  What a reveal.

• 45:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm actually a lot, yeah, a London baton. And which will, I think, explain a bit, but what really surprised me in rereading this book is the fact that I actually saw myself in. Marcel Proust, and I mean that not in a grand, grand way, because the way that I saw myself was all his failings. So Marcel Proust was incredibly, as you learn about in this book, incredibly fragile and neurotic. He was, had sort of perpetual feelings of being misunderstood and a failure whose opinions no one liked. He had chronic asthma, he could only eat one meal a day, eight hours before bed, or he just couldn't sleep. He had such

• 46:05Speaker 02

  sensitive skin that he had to use 20 towels after a shower to wash himself, to dry himself. He had fears of mice, he was always cold, he had coughing fits, he had gut issues, sensitivity to any noise, he couldn't leave the house, he had sort of extreme homesickness. Fevers, cold, bad eyesight. He was an extraordinary hypochondriac that thought that any of these above elements could kill him at any moment. He was sort of this incredibly, yeah, fragile, neurotic person. And his brother, on the other hand, Robert, was a, one of the most

• 46:46Speaker 02

  well-known, famous and loved people in France. He was a cutting-edge surgeon who was writing books about new surgeries. I think in, I'm pretty sure, a prostatectomy, which is like a removal of the prostate in France is still sort of a nickname.

• 47:05Speaker 01

  I think they'd call it the Proustate?

• 47:06Speaker 02

  Well, I think in France, they called it a Proustatectomy.

• 47:08Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 47:09Speaker 02

  As a joke, because his brother, a black pioneer, the surgery.

• 47:12Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 47:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think. I'll have to double check that, but I'm pretty, yeah. He was like a war hero and indestructible. He was, there's a story about him being run over by a five-ton coal wagon and just walking away. When he was operating in Verdun in the First World War, a bomb went off and he was hit by shrapnel, took on the shrapnel himself and single-handedly moved his patient to a safe distance and kept on operating. He was this kind of indestructible, charming person.

• 47:39Speaker 01

  Just, I never did anything like that, just for people. That was cool, that was it.

• 47:43Speaker 02

  Yeah. The, the question that is asked in this book, in the chapter in the book is called How to Suffer Successfully. The question that is asked is, who would you rather be? The, this person who's had so much success, so much charm, seems to travel through life with no, no impedance, everything just seems easy for them, or the person that feels like everything is a struggle and everything is hard and doesn't seem to be able to do things naturally or as well as their brother. And the way that the, the way, some of the, I may as well quote a little bit here, and sorry, this is a bit all over the place, but,

• 48:26Speaker 02

  and this is why I don't want, what I think is interesting about this, and I think hopefully we can talk about this later, is how I think wrong my assessment of you was, and also how you've changed and how I've changed since then.

• 48:40Speaker 02

  But it says here, in Bruce's view, we don't really learn anything properly until there's a problem.

• 48:49Speaker 02

  And an area in which Robert appeared, the only area in which Robert appeared to trail his brother was his ability to notice things. But it's worth pointing out that feeling things, which usually means feeling things painfully, is at some level linked to the acquisition of knowledge. And it was at that point in reading this that I thought, I, I feel things and I notice things and I'm suffering here, but this doesn't have to be a problem. There can be real beauty and learning in this.

• 49:20Speaker 02

  And it changed my opinion to, well, maybe Hugh doesn't, maybe Hugh isn't superior to me in every single way in my life. And maybe my, me feeling like this is an opportunity to grow, to learn, to notice more and to lean into it. And it's a tricky area because I don't think you want to be sort of falling into a cult of suffering. Because I think that's quite easy to be sort of lured into this idea that you have to suffer to create. As he says here, before subscribing uncritically to a romantic cult of suffering, it should be added that suffering has on its own never been quite enough.

• 49:56Speaker 00

  Never been quiet enough?

• 49:58Speaker 02

  Quite enough.

• 49:58Speaker 00

  Quite enough.

• 49:59Speaker 02

  Um. In that it's it's easier to lose a lover than than to complete in search of lost time, the book. So you can't just suffer alone. You have to be open to the inquiry that can come with suffering. So it says here, perhaps the greatest claim one can therefore make for suffering is it opens up the possibility for intelligent imaginative inquiry.

• 50:21Speaker 00

  In terms of like how to get out of the suffering?

• 50:23Speaker 02

  Or what you can learn from it. So what can you learn from the human experience? It's he's written here, the stubborn recurrence of misery means that the development of a workable approach to it must surely outstrip the value of any utopian quest for happiness.

• 50:37Speaker 02

  Which I've always felt like that my aim in life is not to be happy all the time, but it's to be able to feel properly and to be able to feel in every direction rather than to just feel happy.

• 50:50Speaker 02

  When I was writing about this the other day, I'm trying to prepare for today. I wrote this and I've I've already reading it before. It's a bit corny, but I think it's sort of sums up kind of what I feel. So not to glamorize my suffering, but perhaps the suffering and low self-esteem is a chance to feel more deeply, to try and understand more about the world. Perhaps this could be a gift. And what I've learned to be true over time is that the more I can accurately explore and define my suffering, the more I can remove judgment from it. The more I see it as a passing cloud from which a greater understanding of life can come down with the rain. And once I've soaked in that rain, I can more beautifully and more fully enjoy the sunshine, too.

• 51:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:34Speaker 02

  So that's kind of how that book changed my life a bit. I hope I've I've kind of explained that that makes sense. And I'm worried that I don't want to be indulged in saying that you have to suffer to learn.

• 51:46Speaker 00

  No, but people people do.

• 51:47Speaker 02

  You do suffer and life's hard. And sometimes you can't avoid all those hard things. Sometimes things happen to you that you can't avoid, but sometimes out of nowhere, you just find yourself in a darker place. But I think there's hope there, too. I think in those dark places, there's a little bit of light that you can grab on to and you can come out of that.

• 52:11Speaker 00

  It's also, I think, I think it's really.

• 52:15Speaker 00

  It's, life's a bit easier when the things, especially as teenagers and at school, if the things that you're naturally good at happen to be the things that are celebrated by most people, being good at sport, or being like a good public speaker, or being funny, or any of those things that generally, if that's what your gift is, then you get, that's that's often valued quite highly. And so that is naturally going to make you more confident. But I think like so many people, their gifts and what is so special about them are often

• 52:57Speaker 00

  not valued, you know, in a big way, like being, being empathetic in high school and feeling a lot and being like kind. It's like, it's, it's, it's not gonna, you're not necessarily.

• 53:13Speaker 02

  You're not going up in assembly with an award for that. No. How did that land for you?

• 53:18Speaker 01

  My first thought is I actually don't know how much it is about me. Like, I feel like this is a lot about you. That's actually not so much. Like, obviously, there's the influence.

• 53:28Speaker 01

  There's an influence there, but I do feel like this is actually more about your journey. And I could be totally wrong, but it feels to me like this is actually more about you.

• 53:37Speaker 00

  The reason I'm kind of was awkward or nervous about reading is out is that I, I feel like I'm referring to a myth, like a myth that I was holding on to. And I think it's so far from my version, my vision of your life, I think that I held on for too long, is probably incredibly inaccurate to what your life is really like. And I think it undermines how, ironically, it actually undermines how brilliant you are in other ways. Like, it, it doesn't give enough respect to your, to how amazing you have, how hard life would have been for you in different spots, and how empathetic and how much you notice things and how caring you are and all that kind of stuff. I think it, it's too much, it's a one dimensional picture of.

• 54:23Speaker 02

  Perfection, I think that a child has that actually is not doing justice to the brilliance of the person.

• 54:31Speaker 01

  Well, it feels a little bit like your, thank you for that, it's very nice thing to say.

• 54:38Speaker 01

  So, so two things, so I feel like maybe for you, for a lot of your life, your metric of how you're doing was like, in all areas, you were comparing them to me.

• 54:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:49Speaker 01

  Potentially, you're looking at like, so like when you choose a computer game character, like you've got their strengths and you choose what strengths you want, it's kind of like you're looking at mine and going, well, I'll try and they're the ones I should do, like specifically cricket, running fast, school captain, friendship or whatever.

• 55:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:07Speaker 01

  And then at some point in your life, you're like, actually, I'm going to choose the ones that he's not good at and I'm going to be better at those, maybe.

• 55:12Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, maybe, yeah, potentially, yeah, as a way of finding who I am, maybe.

• 55:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know, maybe that's sort of what I'm feeling through that, but I could be wrong, you're like, well, I feel stuff heaps and I can do that, that's more of it. And I'm, yeah, maybe at a point you're like, actually, I'm much smarter than you, it's like, I'm much smarter and I'm much more, and then you're just like, I'm going to really try and focus on those now.

• 55:36Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 55:37Speaker 01

  Cause I can be better than that, better in that area, as opposed to like, I'm just going to choose my own, which is what you do now, you're like, well, here's my, these are my computer game character strengths, they're, they're mine, I don't, they're not, they're not influenced at all by you at all, I don't, I don't know if that is too simplistic.

• 55:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I think it's, well, I think that it is simplistic, I think, because I think the, as a kid and growing up, it's as simple as, well, life looks great for him, so I'll do those things and that will make life easy.

• 56:06Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 56:06Speaker 02

  Um, it's much harder to work out, it's much harder to, which is one of the things that's under, that it doesn't appreciate is how much harder it is for, say, you, because there was no one to follow, like you were playing your own field and I had to do that too, but I just did it later in life.

• 56:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 56:24Speaker 02

  It's quite an irony really, that I think I've never been more myself doing something with you.

• 56:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 56:30Speaker 02

  Like doing this show together.

• 56:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:32Speaker 02

  And that's thanks to everyone who, originally Ryan and, Ryan and Hugh, you, originally you guys and the support that you gave me and the love and appreciation, but also everyone who has then worked at Bridge and Bella and George, allowing. Me to be myself through this process, and I think being a parent as well, has meant that I'm now, that's why I feel like such a different person. Like, it's bizarre to me to think, like, when I was reading through the other day and reading about Marcel Proust's life and the way he looked at himself, I'm like, I was never like that. Like, why did I ever think that I was that fragile?

• 57:09Speaker 01

  Because I know Penny's listening to this going, I don't understand Joshua's opinion of himself. Like, what she saw of someone in the year below you was like, this person who's up on stage playing music, wooing every single person in the audience with your beautiful voice and your singing, and then you're incredibly good at sport, very handsome, very smart. Like, I think a lot of people have been like, what? That's not a man who uses 20 towels to dry himself.

• 57:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, it's remarkable. But it also shows how bizarre and how disconnected you're, not to say that that portrayal that you just said was 100% true either, but that it was clearly in the, it was probably somewhere in the middle of the two is reality. But it's ridiculous to think that I saw myself.

• 57:46Speaker 01

  That is the reality of what people saw.

• 57:48Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 57:49Speaker 01

  Red view at school. Definitely, that's definitely the reality.

• 57:51Speaker 02

  I don't doubt it. I think that's the, I can so imagine that. It's like the horrible thing about comparison is that like you, if you're putting yourself directly up against someone or an ideal of someone, and you're falling short, it's like you're just forgetting about all the things that actually, what's the reality here versus like, what am I telling myself?

• 58:10Speaker 01

  Which is why I do that thing about the character strengths. Like, you were in year 12, you were marking yourself, you were measuring yourself against me and what I, what my skills were.

• 58:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:21Speaker 01

  And if you had, and by the way, I'm not saying you should have done it because, God, we're kids and it's like, I have so much empathy for that. Well, I had so much empathy at the time and do now, as well for the 17, 18 year old version of you who was clearly like, I'm not, well, I'm a school captain and, or whatever the things you measured yourself for that. And you weren't able to see the. And I don't know if you, maybe you aren't able to look back and see the incredible stuff that you did at the time, but it was like, yeah, maybe not, but it was.

• 58:52Speaker 02

  I think I'm more, yeah, I think I am a bit more now to, to have, have a bit of compassion and see that, but I certainly didn't at the time. It was just like, yeah, that's good. I can do those things. But what I really want is the things that you had.

• 59:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:05Speaker 01

  And that's, and I hope, nothing I'm saying is coming, I'm not criticizing away at all because I totally, I totally understand what you're doing. My, my story was very different and it, and it's almost, what you've just said tells me I was very good at what I thought my job was to do back then. And that was to, um, with the mental illness in our home and the state our home was, it had an impact on the way you were as a person, but also had a very big impact on me. And that was my job here is to absolutely bring, um, zero friction at all and bring light and energy and happiness. And the image of, um, everything's graded every single possibility. And that was the performance that I did for so long.

• 59:50Speaker 01

  Um, and then it sort of became a little bit of who I was, my personality. And in doing that, and it's the work I'm unraveling right now with my psychologist, Anita and Dr. Edna, my psychiatrist is also on board now. It's like my, my actual voice, what I actually think and what I actually want, what I actually need really comes out very, and I find it very, very, very hard to say. Like Anita would say to me, that voice is so quiet.

• 1:00:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:14Speaker 01

  And it's so quiet that you don't even hear it. And it's because for so many years I was trying to project what you saw and what you, I'm not going to say fell for, because it makes it sound like, but it's what I did so well. So you saw like this very happy person who was succeeding. Because I thought for me, success was like what would make mum and dad really happy and that would distract them from what was happening at home. And so I was on a hell bent mission to succeed. Um, and then when I, yeah, so that's, yeah.

• 1:00:45Speaker 02

  And you succeeded in that mission.

• 1:00:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, until I didn't understand why when I left school, I wasn't succeeding at stuff. That was a.

• 1:00:55Speaker 01

  Anyway, that's another story, but I don't want to make this about me. What the reason I'm saying this is that I completely understand why a teenage version of you saw me and went, yeah, I'm gonna be like that. Because I was before, it was a very good performance of of like happiness and success and what life, what you should aspire towards, because I was just doing that for mum and dad, specifically for mum and dad. And and also to to bring light to your life, because I felt like it was so unfair what was happening to you as a kid. Um, the same thing was happening to me, but I felt like it was more unfair to happen to a twelve year old or thirteen year old. So I was just desperate to project joy to everyone, to try and for obvious reasons, but

• 1:01:36Speaker 01

  I think I was very good at it. And so it makes sense. I understand totally why you saw that as something to copy and复制, because you saw how happy it would have made mum and dad as well. And you're like, well.

• 1:01:46Speaker 02

  Probably, yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, yeah.

• 1:01:48Speaker 01

  Um, you achieving in cricket and school captaincy or whatever.

• 1:01:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, brings joy.

• 1:01:53Speaker 01

  That brings joy. So if I can do that, I can. So I get it. Like, it makes total sense. And I feel I would love to go back in time and like

• 1:02:02Speaker 01

  like be everyone celebrates school captain, I can wink at you and go, this is just a performance, by the way. I'm really doing this for mum and dad. Like, this doesn't, this means fuck all. Like, I have to, I have to tell you.

• 1:02:12Speaker 02

  Because you've got trust, smoking bongs around the back.

• 1:02:13Speaker 01

  Honestly, that would be, yeah, do drugs. Like, that would be so cool. That'd be so much more fun than what I do.

• 1:02:18Speaker 02

  Wish I could do that. Um, yeah.

• 1:02:19Speaker 01

  So I just, I just, I guess I'm saying all that um to really empathize with your teenage self and and to recognize how hard that would have made. It was, I was trying to do it for the opposite reason, but I I acknowledge that it absolutely caused problems for you for the next however long in your life. Like, it definitely did.

• 1:02:39Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:02:39Speaker 01

  There wasn't, obviously, it wasn't my intention. It was like to do the opposite, but I think it sent all of us on a um on a trajectory that was everything about protection, we're trying to protect ourselves and protect the family, but it it it obviously has caused um yeah, it's caused friction internally for all of us at some point.

• 1:02:59Speaker 02

  Well, I, yeah, and I think so. A couple of things to say to that. I think it's really important. I'd like everyone to know, but I know it inherently, but I think it's not maybe obvious that no one in in what you're talking about there, you also, there's no one in my life has ever looked out for me more than you at every step of the way, um, in every point from then till now. Um, and I don't want anyone to miss that part of it because yeah, you were doing these amazing things, but there was the, yeah, no one's protected me more or looked out for me more or tried to do more for me than you. Um, and that's pretty, that's incredible. So maybe that's part of why I worshipped you as

• 1:03:42Speaker 02

  well. Um, and that's a good thing. Um, but also that I think this is just like, I don't think it's, I don't think anyone's at fault here. Like, I don't think you should feel bad or there's any, like, you were a kid too, and we're just doing the best we can. It's a pretty blessed thing to have. Um, like, I sometimes, I sometimes think that seems weird to talk on a podcast or talk about how the problems caused by someone being too great, like to my parents love me too much, or like, so it kind of sounds a bit ridiculous. Um, so I wouldn't have had it any other way,

• 1:04:20Speaker 02

  really. Um, but also that the point of the whole chapter in the book is that, um, me having to question all this stuff and noticing all these things about myself, uh, is a gift, I think, um, and it, and, um, I wouldn't really have it any other way because I think I have learnt so much more about life and have a deeper understanding of life. That's made me a better dad, um, and a better partner to self and a better friend and just a better person because of it. And I think if I hadn't gone through.

• 1:04:54Speaker 02

  Moments of suffering and internal suffering, I should say, I would be lesser for it. Yeah. So I don't have any regrets about it at all.

• 1:05:03Speaker 01

  That's a really nice thing to hear. Cause I, yeah, that's a really nice thing to hear. So, and I, I like the way I feel about you is best summarized by, I was talking to Anita about this the other day, how like, I always mix up you and Benji's name. Like I'm always saying to Benji from when he was a baby, like, just like Josh, I mean, Benji and just like the deep love that I have for you is like, my brain gets confused with my firstborn. Like that's, that's the level of, like intensity of love towards you is like, I'm always mixing your names up. They're interchangeable.

• 1:05:35Speaker 02

  Have I ever told you, I can't remember if I've told you this, or I've just thought I should tell you this about when Benji was born. I said to Soph, that this feels like a strange moment because I feel like this is the first person to get in between you and me.

• 1:05:50Speaker 01

  Ah, right. Yeah. Yes.

• 1:05:52Speaker 02

  I don't know. Have I ever said that?

• 1:05:53Speaker 01

  I don't know, but I felt it. I definitely felt it. There was a, I remember your response wasn't what I was expecting it to be. And I think we have discussed it. I think you did tell me that. Yeah.

• 1:06:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I, yeah, I apologize for that. But I,

• 1:06:05Speaker 01

  Oh, no.

• 1:06:05Speaker 02

  I think it was like in a deep sort of child, it activated something in the child in me.

• 1:06:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:11Speaker 02

  To be like, oh, wow. I'm number two now. And that's the way it should be. And that's fine. But it was like a, I didn't, I didn't see it coming.

• 1:06:18Speaker 01

  Not according to my brain. You're one and the same to my brain.

• 1:06:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, true.

• 1:06:23Speaker 02

  You and me, Benj, and Elsie and Patrick.

• 1:06:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, obviously Ted, Elsie and Patrick, if this one day you weren't born yet when I was filling this thing. Yeah. Well, I've, gosh, it feels like a, I feel very lucky to have this podcast. Cause I don't know this conversation is happening without a podcast. I read that.

• 1:06:37Speaker 02

  I don't think so. Yeah.

• 1:06:40Speaker 01

  Cause my instinct is to say like, gosh, you should, it's encouragement to like have these conversations, but you're not going to if you don't have a podcast. It's too hard to talk and just to bring it up.

• 1:06:48Speaker 02

  Let's not kid ourselves.

• 1:06:50Speaker 00

  You ain't doing this.

• 1:06:53Speaker 02

  No, do, do do it. I mean, I.

• 1:06:55Speaker 00

  Do, do, do it.

• 1:06:57Speaker 01

  I know you're going to.

• 1:06:57Speaker 00

  Give it a go.

• 1:06:58Speaker 02

  I'm really glad I, I feel, to be honest, I feel like I didn't do the, the book part as well as I could have. But for me, what the conversation we've had afterwards was the important bit because I felt like the book bit doesn't apply to me anymore.

• 1:07:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:11Speaker 02

  But the, this, I was really glad that we could talk about this. Yeah.

• 1:07:16Speaker 00

  I think, I think Prest would be happy with that summation.

• 1:07:19Speaker 02

  And a London baton, hopefully as well.

• 1:07:21Speaker 00

  I reckon he would. Yeah.

• 1:07:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, thank you for sharing that. It's a really.

• 1:07:24Speaker 00

  That's amazing. I was able to watch that. I'm just like watching like head to head. So it was incredible.

• 1:07:31Speaker 01

  One will live, one will die.

• 1:07:34Speaker 02

  Reference to our lunch. There's a secondary question I want to ask, the question that we don't have time for, I think, is that I think you're, you've gone through much more hardship and challenges in the last, since I've read that book, in the last sort of 10 or 15 years. And I'd be interested to know if you feel like the, the idea that you can learn, that you've truly learned about life from suffering is, resonates with you.

• 1:08:03Speaker 01

  Yep. So two things from that. The first one is, the first thing that comes to mind is, and I think I've always understood why deep down, but I'm always very forthcoming in telling you about all my struggles and all the things because I constantly want you to know. I constantly want you to know about my affections. I constantly like.

• 1:08:19Speaker 02

  It's interesting.

• 1:08:20Speaker 01

  You hear more.

• 1:08:21Speaker 02

  To sort of undo that work.

• 1:08:22Speaker 01

  My fuck ups, my, even the small things, but I'm always wanting, there's almost like a relief when I tell you things, like when I tell you how hard things are. Like there's a part of me that's like, I really want Josh to know, I want Josh to know this. So I think I've always been, um, not subconsciously, consciously trying to undo your image of me. Like I've always been, not always, in the last 10 years.

• 1:08:44Speaker 01

  And I think, and I think the episode we did with Bronte Campbell really helped with that. When I understood truly that it wasn't that you didn't like me, you're just trying to forge your own path.

• 1:08:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 1:08:53Speaker 01

  Like she did with Kate Campbell.

• 1:08:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:08:55Speaker 01

  That I became more like, well, I really want Josh to know if he thinks I'm perfect. Not that you did then, but I really am gonna, I'm really gonna reiterate to you to make the point that things aren't, I'm not perfect. I'm so far from it. Life is very hard. So that's, I'm always probably too keen to share things that are not going well for that reason.

• 1:09:15Speaker 00

  On the, on the flip side of that coin, then i- is it also hard for you to share the good things?

• 1:09:22Speaker 01

  Yes, yep, definitely, definitely. I don't, I don't, I don't. Um, yeah, I just, to me, I, I feel a bit uncomfortable sharing good stuff.

• 1:09:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:09:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, like the, the really, the one that I really just felt gross about. And it was the main reason, the main reason I was really hoping it was never a chance that was fine. The Australian of the year thing, I was like, fuck.

• 1:09:43Speaker 00

  Oh, really?

• 1:09:44Speaker 01

  I didn't, I, I did not, I just, it just didn't, I was just felt, you know, I want to do very similar work. So, you know, to me, it could have been like.

• 1:09:53Speaker 00

  It's got real school captain vibes, doesn't it?

• 1:09:55Speaker 02

  I was about to say, it's in a real, it's in the same world.

• 1:09:57Speaker 01

  It does. And, and I kept saying, I don't want to win it because I don't want the attention, but I really didn't want it for that reason. That was my main reason. Yeah.

• 1:10:05Speaker 02

  Wow, God.

• 1:10:06Speaker 01

  I felt very uncomfortable, I would feel so uncomfortable in this relationship if that was, if that, yeah.

• 1:10:12Speaker 02

  So, but I was, uh, to be honest, I was, I felt nothing but pride for you being nominated. Um, and.

• 1:10:20Speaker 00

  Victoria only.

• 1:10:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:10:22Speaker 01

  And one of four.

• 1:10:23Speaker 02

  But I was really sad for you when you didn't progress because I'm just so proud of you and I think you're so amazing. And I think, I think I've just got a much more, for me, I feel like I'm, I see it all now. Like I see there are things that you can do that I can't do, that no one I've ever met can do better, you do them better than anyone. Uh, and there are other areas where you are not so good. And I see all of it.

• 1:10:46Speaker 01

  There's plenty of them.

• 1:10:47Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I, and I just, I think it's just part of life is sort of giving, giving up on the childhood version of someone. Or like having the child's view of the world and a person and developing an adult's view of that person. And it's, um, yeah, I, and I would love you to share it all, share the biggest wins and the biggest losses and everything.

• 1:11:09Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:11:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:10Speaker 01

  Thank you for that. Um, and to answer your question, um, yes, the, the pain and struggle and suffering, I wouldn't change it for anything. Cause it's definitely helped me to be a better person. So.

• 1:11:21Speaker 02

  It'd be good.

• 1:11:22Speaker 00

  God, imagine if I was doing herring as caring now.

• 1:11:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, if we can just stick a hair to Josh's eyebrow.

• 1:11:29Speaker 01

  It's had it all. It's, it has gone for four hours.

• 1:11:32Speaker 00

  Belle, good order.

• 1:11:35Speaker 00

  Good order.

• 1:11:38Speaker 00

  Oh, that's amazing, guys. Wow.

• 1:11:41Speaker 02

  All right.

• 1:11:42Speaker 00

  God. Well, I'm here whenever you need more family therapy. Or hair. Yes. Um, wow, that's one of my, separate to the herring is caring, it's one of my favourite, favourite moments or episodes I think we've ever done. That was amazing. Really incredible.

• 1:12:00Speaker 02

  Well done you.

• 1:12:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, all right. Well, um, yeah, if, if you do want a little more.

• 1:12:09Speaker 00

  If you want a little more hair.

• 1:12:11Speaker 01

  You know what to do.

• 1:12:12Speaker 00

  We do need to recap that.

• 1:12:16Speaker 00

  So, yeah, comment or email.

• 1:12:24Speaker 00

  Joking, joking, not joking.

• 1:12:29Speaker 00

  Thank you, Josh. Yes, exactly. All right. See you later, everyone.

• 1:12:36Speaker 02

  If you enjoyed Ryan's abundance of hair and hair loss solutions, as well as my chat with Hugh, there's plenty more like this on our Patreon. So you can sign up at patreon.com/theimperfects or simply just click subscribe on your Apple Podcast app.