Top 5: How to Act Like an Extrovert

It's Happiness Lab's fifth birthday - so as part of the celebration we're playing some of Dr Laurie's favorite episodes. The final selection attracted a lot of downloads when it went out. but also made some people mad. The Introvert's Guide to Extroversion. Jessica Pan hated social gatherings - she cried when her friends threw her a surprise birthday party, and was even too scared to give a speech at her own wedding. Jessica was a hardcore introvert - and it was making her sad. Extroverts find it easier to experience the joy that comes with social interactions - but that doesn't mean introverts are doomed to lives that lack such fun. Jessica read some research that suggested introverts can learn to enjoy being more outgoing - so decided to turn her social life around. You can read more of Jessica's story in her book: Sorry I'm Late, I Didn't Want to Come: One Introvert's Year of Saying Yes. She is posting updates from her year of extroverting at her Substack, "It'll Be Fun, They Said" (https://jesspan.substack.com/). See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:04Speaker 01

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• 0:32Laurie Santos?

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• 1:16Laurie Santos?

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• 1:32Laurie Santos?

  Pushkin.

• 1:41Laurie Santos?

  We've been celebrating five years of the Happiness Lab by resurfacing five of my favorite episodes of the show. We've already gone all the way back to when we started out in 2019, but this final episode brings us nearly up to date. And my producer, Ryan Dilly, has it ready to go. Ryan, what's episode number five?

• 1:57Speaker 03

  So this is from 2023, and it's called "The Introvert's Guide to Extroversion." So why do you want me to get this one out?

• 2:02Laurie Santos?

  Oh, this is one of my favorites because it's also about the benefits of social connection, even for people who might not think they get a lot of benefit out of social connection.

• 2:10Speaker 03

  It was a really popular episode, as I remember, and did really well in terms of downloads. But it also prompted lots of complaints. Why do you think that was?

• 2:17Laurie Santos?

  Well, I think introverts really felt that we were attacking them. But that wasn't really the case. All we were doing was showing the benefits of social connection, even for folks who have personalities that might not really resonate with social connection. We got to interview this lovely guest, Jessica Pan, who talked about her book, Sorry, I'm Late, I Didn't Want to Come: The Introvert's Guide to Extroverting. And she did this lovely experiment where, as an introvert, she tried engaging in a little bit more extroverted activities for a whole year. And she found there were many more happiness benefits than she expected.

• 2:48Speaker 03

  I mean, this is a subject really dear to my heart. I've always been quite nervous about talking to new people. And I don't even like doing this recording now. But I worked really hard to try and overcome some of that. I think it's been really good for me.

• 2:58Laurie Santos?

  Yeah.

• 2:59Speaker 03

  I was wondering if, you know, your behavior has changed because of this episode at all.

• 3:02Laurie Santos?

  Oh, for sure. As you know, I'm not the kind of person that tends to talk to people. But in part because of this, I've realized that, like, there are many more benefits than even I expected. And so it's definitely been something that's affected how I act in the world. And I hope it might give our listeners some food for thought as well. And so here is the last episode in our Birthday Celebration reruns, The Introvert's Guide to Extroversion.

• 3:29Speaker 04

  I feel like college was a real struggle for me. This is author Jessica Pan. I always felt like when, you know, college kids would go out and party or go to clubs, I thought we were all secretly waiting to like, come home and then, you know, get our pajamas.

• 3:44Laurie Santos?

  Jessica had many close friends in college. She couldn't always relate to how outgoing her buddies were. Her besties seemed to seek out noisy parties and busy dance floors. But Jessica was much more at home with small gatherings and intimate conversations. Jessica's friends adored her, but they couldn't always relate to her preferences. Just assumed Jessica would want to go big to celebrate when she turned 22.

• 4:06Speaker 04

  They threw me this surprise birthday party.

• 4:09Laurie Santos?

  Friends and family members gathered secretly and waited in Jessica's dark bedroom, ready to pop out and scream as soon as she got home.

• 4:16Speaker 04

  And I walked in, there was like 50 people staring at me. And I burst into tears. It was my worst nightmare. That's one of the times I felt very much like, okay, I am slightly different from my extroverted friends.

• 4:32Laurie Santos?

  But it wasn't just those extroverted friends. Jessica also felt different from the people she grew up with.

• 4:37Speaker 04

  I often say that my parents are like the two chattiest people in America because they absolutely love talking to strangers to the point where it is embarrassing. You'll be in line for a restaurant, or you'll be on the plane, or anywhere. And my mom is talking to someone and then my dad's joining in and they're, it's just, I don't know. They're the complete opposite of me.

• 4:56Laurie Santos?

  Jessica knew her social needs differed from the people around her, but she wasn't sure why.

• 5:01Speaker 04

  So when I was growing up, the labels introvert and extrovert, they were not these buzzy terms that everybody knew about. So I'd never heard of them. And I think I found out in my twenties what an introvert was, and I immediately recognized myself.

• 5:13Laurie Santos?

  The American Psychological Association defines introversion as an orientation towards the internal, private world of one's inner thoughts and feelings, rather than toward the outer world of people. Compared to extroverts, introverts are more withdrawn, reserved, quiet, and deliberate.

• 5:28Speaker 04

  Someone who concentrates really well, is a good listener, likes to be alone, gets exhausted, overstimulated by lots of people. And I felt really seen by that definition. I would never raise my hand in a class. That would never happen. I would fake sick if there was a presentation I had to give. I think I got a solo to sing in a choir and I didn't tell my mom about it. And I just pretended that I had a fever. I don't even think she knows about that to this day.

• 5:54Laurie Santos?

  And so Jessica began referring to herself as an introvert with a capital I. It quickly became a badge of honor.

• 6:00Speaker 04

  But I began to use that label of introvert as an excuse to say no to anything that gave me any sort of social anxiety.

• 6:08Laurie Santos?

  Jessica sat out important social events, even ones that she knew might be good for her or for her career.

• 6:15Speaker 04

  I didn't want to give speeches, I didn't want to host parties, I didn't want to lead workshops, because I thought to myself, no, I'm an introvert. Introverts don't do things like that. And I was completely limiting who I was and who I could become.

• 6:27Laurie Santos?

  At times, Jessica did question what she was passing up, like the time she went to a friend's wedding.

• 6:32Speaker 04

  The bride stood up and she gave this amazing speech and she was crying and her parents were crying and I felt like, why didn't I give a speech at my wedding? And I didn't do it because I was too anxious. I was scared I would not sound articulate, I was scared that I wouldn't look good, I was scared that I'd embarrass myself, when actually, I wish I had done that because I think the benefits could have tremendously outweighed the negative consequences.

• 6:53Laurie Santos?

  But the negative consequences of Jessica's introversion became even clearer when she and her husband moved to London.

• 7:00Speaker 04

  It's notoriously not the most friendly place in the entire world and it's hard to make friends as an adult. And also, I was a freelancer, so I was working from home, so it seemed absolutely impossible to make these connections and get out of my shell.

• 7:13Laurie Santos?

  And that was when Jessica decided to embark on an innovative, personal experiment, one that wound up changing her life forever.

• 7:20Speaker 04

  I was thinking, if I really want to commit to this, I have to do this.

• 7:25Laurie Santos?

  If you've listened to other episodes in this new season on Getting More Social, then you've probably already heard about the benefits of connecting with other people. Pretty much every study ever done on the relationship between well-being and social interaction shows that more people time makes us happier. But what if you, like Jessica, dread parties and crowds and spontaneous conversations with strangers? Are you doomed to less happiness than your more talkative friends? Or is there a way that the introverts among us can also get the happiness benefits that come from more social connection?

• 8:00Laurie Santos?

  Our minds are constantly telling us what to do to be happy, but what if our minds are wrong? What if our minds are lying to us, leading us away from what will really make us happy? The good news is that understanding the science of the mind can point us all back in the right direction. You're listening to the Happiness Lab with Dr. Laurie Santos.

• 8:23Speaker 05

  Hi Lori, I'm having trouble connecting my mic, so give me just a sec.

• 8:27Laurie Santos?

  I wanted to unpack what psychologists have learned about the science of introversion and the unintended consequences it can have for our happiness. And that meant there was one person in the field I really needed to call.

• 8:37Speaker 05

  My computer's rejecting the Bluetooth connection.

• 8:40Laurie Santos?

  Sonia Lubomirsky is a professor at the University of California at Riverside. She's the author of "The How of Happiness: A New Approach to Getting the Life You Want." Sonia is a world expert on the science of happiness, so not surprisingly, she's very much in demand.

• 8:55Speaker 05

  I've been crazy busy, so I'm like, this is like, I don't even have time to say hi. Like, I'm going from one meeting to another.

• 9:01Laurie Santos?

  I was super grateful that Sonia made time for us and that she put up with a few technical problems.

• 9:06Speaker 05

  Can you keep talking? It's working great.

• 9:09Laurie Santos?

  In order to share a key finding from her decades of work in positive psychology.

• 9:13Speaker 05

  After many years of research, we landed on this cliche, which is that the key to happiness is really connection. And so if you want to increase happiness, you want to make people feel more connected.

• 9:24Laurie Santos?

  It really is that simple. You will be happier if you interact with more people, even if you're an introvert.

• 9:30Speaker 05

  What's interesting is quite a few studies have shown that actually both experts and introverts benefit by more social interaction.

• 9:38Laurie Santos?

  Most introverts predict that social interaction will feel exhausting, anxiety-provoking, and crummy, so they don't engage in this activity nearly as much as extroverts do. And the science shows that this choice can have big negative consequences for introverts' happiness. Research since the 1980s has shown that, on average, introverts are less happy than extroverts, presumably because they consistently miss out on the well-being benefits that social connection provides. But that leads to an even bigger problem, because introversion isn't just some flippant label we throw on when we don't feel like going to a party. Introversion is one of the five core dimensions that make up our personalities, the other four being openness, conscientiousness, agreeableness, and neuroticism.

• 10:21Laurie Santos?

  Psychologists have long assumed that these so-called "big five" personality traits are stable. They don't change all that much across our lifetimes or across different situations. If you were outgoing and the center of attention is a teenager, then psychologists would assume that you're still likely to be extroverted decades later. But if you spent your teen years, like Jessica Pan, wishing you could run home to be alone, well, most psychologists would probably assume that you're unlikely to be a social butterfly today. But does that mean that introverts are doomed by their personality, destined never to share the joy of connection that extroverts take for granted? Sonia didn't think so.

• 11:00Speaker 05

  What is a trait is basically behavior, you know, like when you do something over and over again. If I'm like always making my bed and I'm organized and I'm always on time, people say, oh, Sonia is high in conscientiousness. But if you're not high in conscientiousness, theoretically, you can try to make your meetings on time and make your bed every morning. And so the same thing for extroversion.

• 11:19Laurie Santos?

  Sonia reasoned that introverts could engage in what she called volitional personality change. If they simply behaved in a more extroverted way, maybe they could reap the happiness benefits that come with having a more extroverted personality. To test this theory, Sonia teamed up with her graduate student Seth Margolis and recruited over 100 college students to take part in a new study. Some of these students were naturally introverted, whereas others were more extroverted. But all of the subjects were randomly divided into two groups. The first group was told that for the next week, they needed to be as talkative, assertive, and spontaneous as possible. Essentially, they had to act extroverted. But the second group was told to do just the opposite.

• 12:01Laurie Santos?

  They were asked to act as deliberate, quiet, and reserved as possible. They were going to be more introverted.

• 12:09Laurie Santos?

  Both groups then filled out surveys to measure their overall well-being and how much positive emotion they experienced over the week. So what did Sonia find?

• 12:17Speaker 05

  We found that both introverts and extroverts, during the week that they were asked to act more extroverted, got hugely happier.

• 12:24Laurie Santos?

  Sonia says the boost in happiness she observed in this be more extroverted condition was one of the largest effects she's observed in decades of studying happiness interventions. But just as acting more extroverted had a significant upside, Sonia also observed an effect of doing the opposite. Subjects who were asked to act reserved and shy showed statistically reduced levels of well-being. Acting introverted for a week appears to significantly reduce our happiness. But Sonia says the most shocking finding from her study, especially for researchers in the field of personality psychology, was that subjects were able to do what she asked them to. People could change their personality traits if they tried, at least for short periods of time.

• 13:09Laurie Santos?

  And that finding was very good news to author and introvert Jessica Pan.

• 13:14Speaker 04

  I was like, oh, so we can change. We don't always have to be the same. And yeah, I found that really freeing.

• 13:21Laurie Santos?

  When we last left Jessica, she was sad and lonely in her new life in the UK. And that's when she began reading about the psychology of introverts and happened upon Sonia's new study. Learning that people could volitionally change their personality traits led Jessica to try something radical.

• 13:36Speaker 04

  I thought, look, I'm not that happy right now in my life, and I'm a hardcore introvert. What would happen if I lived like the other half of the world? What could I gain from that?

• 13:45Laurie Santos?

  Jessica decided to begin her own experiment. But rather than behaving more spontaneously and assertively for just a week, as Sonia's subjects had done, Jessica pledged to act like an extrovert for an entire year. Her 12-month journey turned into a new book, Sorry, I'm Late, I Didn't Want to Come: One Introvert's Year of Saying Yes. And Jessica's big year of saying yes didn't just involve becoming a bit more talkative. Jessica committed to trying out some of the most terrifying social encounters possible.

• 14:13Speaker 04

  Talking to strangers, public speaking, doing improv comedy, things like that that were my nightmares.

• 14:19Laurie Santos?

  And, as you'll hear when we get back from the break, Jessica found that pushing herself to make every social connection possible required getting more vulnerable than even she expected.

• 14:28Speaker 04

  I would need to just go for it and embarrass myself again and again and again.

• 14:33Laurie Santos?

  The Happiness Lab will be right back.

• 14:38Laurie Santos?

  There's nothing quite like having pieces in your closet you love and know you can count on for any occasion, except maybe giving someone else that same feeling. And I have to tell you, when it comes to my go-to gift this season, I think this might be the year of the hoodie. Specifically, Quince's Mongolian Cashmere Full Zip Hoodie, which I bought for myself and absolutely love. You know when you get something that's so comfortable, so soft, and so easy to throw on that you suddenly want to wear it every day? That's where I am with this hoodie. And I started to think that instead of agonizing over what to get everyone on my holiday list, I might just buy them all one of these. I mean, who on my list wouldn't love a gift of perfect coziness? But it's not just hoodies. Quince makes elevated everyday

• 15:19Laurie Santos?

  Essentials using premium materials like Mongolian cashmere and organic cotton. And if a cashmere hoodie isn't quite right for someone on your list, Quince has so much more. From leather bags and jewelry to cozy scarves, down outerwear, and even hotel-quality bedding. Give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns, now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks you where you heard about them, let them know it was the Happiness Lab. It's the best way to support the show. Flu season is here, and with everything we have going on, it's easy to put getting a flu shot on the back burner. But taking a few minutes now can help protect you and your family.

• 16:04Laurie Santos?

  That's why I'm headed to CVS Pharmacy to get my flu shot. And honestly, I was really impressed by how easy it was to schedule. With CVS, you can schedule appointments for up to four family members at once, so you can take care of everyone in one go. Just visit CVS.com/flu or use the CVS Health app to find an appointment that works for you. So make protecting yourself this flu season one less thing to worry about. Did you know that flu shots are free with most insurance plans? Visit your local CVS Pharmacy for your flu shot and get a $5 off $20 coupon with any vaccine. Schedule today at CVS.com/flu. Flu shots are no cost with most insurance. Eligibility varies by patient and insurance plan.

• 16:48Laurie Santos?

  Coupon offer not available in select states and is subject to availability. Restrictions apply. Visit CVS.com/flu for details. Okay, quick pop quiz. Ready? What's your daily routine for fueling your gut? If your brain immediately went, "Ah, that's fair." We spend a lot of time thinking about what fuels our body, but when it comes to gut health, things can start to feel surprisingly complicated. The good news: it doesn't have to be. That's why Kashi Gut Health Granola is such an easy win. It's a straightforward, delicious way to help fuel your gut, made with prebiotics, fiber, and gut-activated cultures. Plus, it tastes good. Wait, let me rephrase that. Kashi Gut Health Granola is delicious.

• 17:33Laurie Santos?

  Their blueberry almond granola, for example, starts with whole grain oats and combines them with, well, blueberries and almonds. It's right there in the name. But it's so good. And Kashi Gut Health Granola makes a great breakfast. It's also the kind of afternoon snack that's just so satisfying. I mean, it's straightforward. It fuels your gut and it tastes great. Gut fuel is in the bag. Say hi to new Kashi Gut Health Granola.

• 18:02Speaker 04

  So I had this massive fear of talking to strangers. I just couldn't do it.

• 18:06Laurie Santos?

  Introvert Jessica Pan was ready for an entire year of extroverting. But where should she start? Jessica figured that some expert advice might help. Her first call went out to psychotherapist and Boston University professor Stefan Hoffman.

• 18:21Speaker 04

  He specializes in exposure therapy. So he'll have his patients do really humiliating things, like stand on the street and just sing, or ask someone on the subway for like $200, things where they are guaranteed to be rejected.

• 18:37Laurie Santos?

  Jessica explained to Stefan that she was terrified of putting herself out there, especially with people she didn't know.

• 18:43Speaker 04

  If I was approaching a stranger, my heart would race. I'd feel like I was going to throw up. I just had so much anxiety around it.

• 18:50Laurie Santos?

  Stefan didn't advocate baby steps. He wanted Jessica to dive headfirst into the social deep end.

• 18:57Speaker 04

  And he said, okay, so you live in London and you're scared of strangers. So what I would have you do is I would have you ask a really stupid question to a stranger. I would have you go up to somebody and say, excuse me, is there a Queen of England? And if so, what's her name? And as soon as he said this, I wanted to throw up and I was thinking, there's no way I'm going to do that.

• 19:19Laurie Santos?

  Stefan was making Jessica ask strangers pretty much the dumbest question you could pose to a Londoner. Because back then, everyone knew that there was in fact a Queen of England and her name was Elizabeth. It was an encounter that was set up to make Jessica look as stupid as possible. But as Stefan explained, that was kind of the point.

• 19:37Speaker 04

  Look, you know, no one's going to fire you. You're not going to get arrested. Your husband's not going to leave you. You're not going to get thrown in jail. So you're just going to look a little bit stupid.

• 19:47Laurie Santos?

  And to compound her discomfort, Jessica headed to one of London's least welcoming locations.

• 19:54Speaker 04

  So I think one of the most awkward places to talk to a stranger in London is on the underground because people, they don't want to be bothered.

• 20:01Laurie Santos?

  Jessica was ready to push herself, just like Stefan had advised. So she sought out the least approachable stranger she could find. She picked a busy-looking businessman in an expensive suit.

• 20:11Speaker 04

  I was like, um, excuse me. And he was like, what? And I said, is there a Queen of England? And he was like, the Queen of England? And I said, yeah, who is she? And he said, it's Victoria. And then he walked off.

• 20:26Laurie Santos?

  That wasn't the answer she was expecting. Victoria hadn't been queen for over 100 years. Was the man mocking Jessica? Giving a stupid answer to her stupid question? Jessica wasn't sure. So she flagged down another scary-looking businessman and posed the same question again.

• 20:42Speaker 04

  And he also said Victoria. And I didn't know if it was they were just messing with me or what was happening. But then I flagged down a few more women and they told me it was Elizabeth.

• 20:50Laurie Santos?

  Looking idiotic in front of total strangers in a noisy, dirty subway station might not sound like fun, especially for an introvert. But the experience left Jessica feeling elated.

• 21:01Speaker 04

  I felt like I could fly. I felt insanely exhilarated because it was so embarrassing and there were other people listening. It was my worst fear. And Stefan was right, nothing bad happened.

• 21:15Laurie Santos?

  To take her extroverting to the next level, Jessica tagged in yet another expert, one who may sound kind of familiar if you've listened to other episodes in this special season.

• 21:25Speaker 04

  Should I call him Nick or what should I call him?

• 21:26Speaker 01

  I'm Nicholas Epley, you can call me Nick.

• 21:28Laurie Santos?

  Nick is a professor of behavioral science at the University of Chicago's Booth School of Business.

• 21:33Speaker 04

  I had read his research that said that when two commuters are forced to talk to each other, they are happier than they would have anticipated.

• 21:41Laurie Santos?

  You might remember this study from an episode we ran in our very first season, entitled "Mistakenly Seeking Solitude." In the experiment, Nick found passengers who were about to hop on a train from the Chicago suburbs on their way to work.

• 21:53Speaker 01

  We gave them an envelope that had a $5 Starbucks gift card in it, which turns out to be the most valuable incentive that we know on the planet. People will do anything for a $5 Starbucks gift card, including talk to strangers on trains.

• 22:05Laurie Santos?

  Nick then told one group to spend the entire train ride enjoying their solitude. They weren't allowed to talk to anyone, which is pretty much what most of us usually do.

• 22:14Speaker 01

  And almost nobody talks to strangers on the train.

• 22:16Laurie Santos?

  But Nick asked a second group of commuters to do something a little more radical. They had to spend the entire train ride talking to someone.

• 22:24Speaker 06

  We asked them to try to make a connection with the person who sits down next to you this morning on the train, try to get to know something about him or her. So they were going to have a conversation.

• 22:34Laurie Santos?

  After the ride, Nick surveyed the commuters to find out how they were all feeling. The results were striking. People who were forced to spend their entire train ride talking to strangers felt happier than the ones that were told to enjoy their solitude.

• 22:47Speaker 04

  When I first read that research, I was like, what is he talking about? That sounds insane to me.

• 22:52Laurie Santos?

  Nick says that Jessica's not the only one with that reaction.

• 22:55Speaker 06

  I get a lot of pushback on this because the expectations are so strong.

• 22:59Laurie Santos?

  Nick has even tested these mistaken expectations directly. In a second study, subjects were asked which would feel better, talking to some random stranger on the train or just enjoying the ride in silence. People overwhelmingly thought that being in the talkative condition would suck. They predicted the exact opposite of what Nick's results showed. Like Jessica, most of us think that connecting with strangers will feel awkward, but we're wrong.

• 23:25Speaker 06

  That's not what people's experience actually is.

• 23:28Laurie Santos?

  Nick's subjects also mispredicted how much the stranger they chatted with would enjoy the experience of being talked to.

• 23:34Speaker 06

  That is, they underestimated how social other people were. And notice that belief then becomes a kind of self fulfilling prophecy. If I think, Lori, you don't want to talk to me, then I'll sit down next to you at a conference say, I won't talk to you, you will sit there and will not talk to me, you'll look to me, and because I'm not talking to you, you will infer that I'm not interested in talking to you either, and we'll both then sit there in silence next to each other. And we will both then confirm our expectations that talking to you would have been unpleasant. We don't ever get data that would tell us that those beliefs are wrong because we don't try it.

• 24:09Laurie Santos?

  But author Jessica Pan was ready to try it. She met with Nick and quickly realized that he really practices what he preaches.

• 24:16Speaker 04

  Nicholas has no issue talking to strangers.

• 24:18Laurie Santos?

  Nick talks with people on trains and planes and buses. He chit chats with waiters and baristas in cafes and cashiers at his local grocery store.

• 24:28Speaker 06

  We know all of them now, often by name. They know our kids and that's fun. Once you start the conversation, it's pretty easy to make it go. That's not hard. It's starting it that's hard. It's like a speed bump at the top of a hill and you have to get over this speed bump to actually get things going.

• 24:44Laurie Santos?

  Speed bump? What Nick thought of as a bump in the road felt like a mountain to an introvert like Jessica.

• 24:50Speaker 04

  I felt like he could not relate to my anxiety at all and I couldn't relate to his total nonchalance about chatting with people.

• 24:57Laurie Santos?

  But Nick did share one fact about social connection that put Jessica a little more at ease. He said,

• 25:03Speaker 04

  Look, Jessica, nobody waves, but everybody waves back. Like you have to be the first person to make a move. And if you do that, almost 100% of the time, people will. If you wave to someone, they'll wave back. You say hi to someone, they'll say hi back.

• 25:17Laurie Santos?

  Jessica began to realize how rarely she put in the work to make that all-important first move.

• 25:23Speaker 04

  So I feel like in the past, I'd go to a party and I'd linger in the hallway or the doorway. I wouldn't want to go fully in. I would hover near the cheese board or the drinks and the kitchen or look at my phone and then I would probably leave.

• 25:38Laurie Santos?

  But if Jessica was committed to being the one to open a conversation, what, she wondered, should she start talking about? Are there particular topics that are more effective for really connecting people? In the rare cases in which Jessica did talk with someone new, she usually stuck to the easy stuff, what Nick calls shallow or surface talk.

• 25:57Speaker 04

  Surface talk is like we talk about our commutes or what we had for dinner or the weather and deep talk is our hopes and our dreams and our fears. And so much of our life is rooted in just doing surface talk. You know, you could see the same person every day for 10 years and you might not actually know what's going on with them because you literally just talk about very topical things.

• 26:16Laurie Santos?

  But Nick has found that there's a much more effective style of conversation. If your goal is to truly get to know someone, to truly connect, it's what he and other researchers have called deep conversation.

• 26:26Speaker 04

  It's sharing our human experience of struggling and loneliness and things that actually bring us together.

• 26:32Laurie Santos?

  In one study, Nick asked people to engage either in shallow talk, talking about the weather or their favorite TV shows, or in deep talk. And the deep talk conversation starters were pretty heavy. Things like, can you describe a time that you cried in front of another person? And if you could undo one mistake you've made in your life, what would it be?

• 26:52Speaker 06

  And these deep conversations go much better than people expect they will, and they're much less awkward than people expect. People pretty dramatically underestimate how much they are going to enjoy deep conversation.

• 27:06Laurie Santos?

  Armed with all of Nick's advice, Jessica threw herself into the conversational deep end. She signed up for a professional networking event. And rather than hiding away in the corner like she'd normally do, she immediately headed over to a group of people, started chatting, and going against all her instincts, took the conversation deeper.

• 27:25Speaker 04

  I felt like people really responded to that and they would sort of go, oh, this person's here to be real, to be honest, to actually, you know, make a connection.

• 27:35Laurie Santos?

  Jessica went from feeling like a shy wallflower to the life of the party.

• 27:39Speaker 04

  I could visibly see the difference in people's faces. They were having that dopamine hit too, because we were connecting, we were laughing, we were bonding over something. And I realized that we all have the power to steer the conversation into something deeper.

• 27:54Laurie Santos?

  But Jessica knew that talking was only half the battle. She had succeeded in initiating deeper conversation, but it couldn't be a one-way thing.

• 28:01Speaker 04

  You need to make a person feel like they're being listened to, not just waiting for my turn to talk or my turn to share my story, but actually listening to them and being a part of what they're saying. People like feeling paid attention to. It really is this underrated magic skill that we can all have and that really transforms how they treat you because they like being treated that way. But they like being treated special.

• 28:24Laurie Santos?

  Jessica left the event feeling over the moon. She had proven to herself that she could not only talk to strangers, but also that it felt great. Her experiences inspired her to go even more hardcore in her quest to extrovert.

• 28:36Speaker 04

  I'm very much an all or nothing person, so I thought if I'm gonna do this insane year of torture and extroverting, then I'm not gonna leave anything out.

• 28:46Laurie Santos?

  Exactly what torture was Jessica planning for her introverted self?

• 28:50Speaker 04

  It felt like, okay, if I can survive that, then I can survive anything.

• 28:54Laurie Santos?

  You'll find out when the Happiness Lab returns in a moment.

• 29:02Laurie Santos?

  There's nothing quite like having pieces in your closet you love and know you can count on for any occasion, except maybe giving someone else that same feeling. And I have to tell you, when it comes to my go-to gift this season, I think this might be the year of the hoodie, specifically Quince's Mongolian Cashmere Full Zip Hoodie, which I bought for myself and absolutely love. You know when you get something that's so comfortable, so soft, and so easy to throw on that you suddenly want to wear it every day? That's where I am with this hoodie. And I started to think that instead of agonizing over what to get everyone on my holiday list, I might just buy them all one of these. I mean, who on my list wouldn't love a gift of perfect coziness? But it's not just hoodies. Quince makes elevated everyday essentials using premium materials like Mongolian cashmere and organic cotton.

• 29:47Laurie Santos?

  And if a cashmere hoodie isn't quite right for someone on your list, Quince has so much more, from leather bags and jewelry to cozy scarves, down outerwear, and even hotel-quality bedding. Give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns, now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks you where you heard about them, let them know it was the Happiness Lab. It's the best way to support the show. Flu season is here, and with everything we have going on, it's easy to put getting a flu shot on the back burner. But taking a few minutes now can help protect you and your family. That's why I'm headed to CVS Pharmacy to get my flu shot.

• 30:31Laurie Santos?

  And honestly, I was really impressed by how easy it was to schedule. With CVS, you can schedule appointments for up to four family members at once, so you can take care of everyone in one go. Just visit CVS.com/flu or use the CVS Health app to find an appointment that works for you. So make protecting yourself this flu season one less thing to worry about. Did you know that flu shots are free with most insurance plans? Visit your local CVS Pharmacy for your flu shot and get a $5 off $20 coupon with any vaccine. Schedule today at CVS.com/flu. Flu shots are no cost with most insurance. Eligibility varies by patient and insurance plan. Coupon offer not available in select states and is subject to availability.

• 31:16Laurie Santos?

  Restrictions apply. Visit CVS.com/flu for details. Okay, quick pop quiz. Ready? What's your daily routine for fueling your gut? If your brain immediately went, "Ah," that's fair. We spend a lot of time thinking about what fuels our body, but when it comes to gut health, things can start to feel surprisingly complicated. The good news: it doesn't have to be. That's why Kashi Gut Health Granola is such an easy win. It's a straightforward, delicious way to help fuel your gut, made with prebiotics, fiber, and gut-activated cultures. Plus, it tastes good. Wait, let me rephrase that. Kashi Gut Health Granola is delicious. Their Blueberry Almond Granola, for example,

• 31:59Laurie Santos?

  starts with whole-grain oats and combines them with, well, blueberries and almonds. It's right there in the name. But it's so good. And Kashi Gut Health Granola makes a great breakfast. It's also the kind of afternoon snack that's just so satisfying. I mean, it's straightforward. It fuels your gut, and it tastes great. Gut fuel is in the bag. Say hi to new Kashi Gut Health Granola.

• 32:29Speaker 04

  I think I always thought that to be a good public speaker, you need to have total confidence when you get on stage and before you even do the thing.

• 32:36Laurie Santos?

  Author and introvert Jessica Pan had always hated speaking in public.

• 32:40Speaker 04

  When actually, it's so obvious, but you have to be scared to do it. And then when you survive, that's where that confidence comes from, because you survive doing the scary thing.

• 32:50Laurie Santos?

  So for the pinnacle of her year of acting like an extrovert, she decided to push herself to the limit.

• 32:56Speaker 04

  And I thought, OK, so the final step in this is to perform for an audience where they're often encouraged to heckle you.

• 33:04Laurie Santos?

  Jessica was going to try stand-up comedy. She signed up for a comedy course. But when it came time for the first class, she was terrified. So terrified that she climbed into bed and assumed the fetal position.

• 33:16Speaker 04

  Is that not what other people do? That feels really natural to me.

• 33:20Laurie Santos?

  Hoping somehow to muster the necessary courage. But that first comedy class went well. And in a few weeks, it was time to perform for real.

• 33:28Speaker 04

  The first show I did was with my other fellow classmates and our friends and our partners at this pub downstairs in central London. And I was so nervous, I felt like, I don't know, I felt like I was on fire or something.

• 33:42Laurie Santos?

  And in a way, Jessica was on fire. She got a ton of laughs.

• 33:46Speaker 04

  The first performance went really well. My friend and I decided, let's go to the Edinburgh Fringe Festival, which is like the epicenter of comedy, and let's perform on an open mic night.

• 33:57Laurie Santos?

  Performing in front of a small crowd of friends and supporters at a low-key gig isn't quite the same as getting up on stage at the premier comedy festival in the world.

• 34:06Speaker 04

  It did not go as well.

• 34:09Laurie Santos?

  Jessica now admits that she was a bit unprepared for Edinburgh.

• 34:12Speaker 04

  In that particular act, I talk about living in England and loving living in England. And I forgot that Edinburgh is in Scotland. And I was like, yeah, I love England, I love it here. And it was like an audience full of Scottish people who were like, Boo, like, get off the stage, you're not in England. And for a delicate, shy introvert, that's enough to kill you. But I didn't actually die.

• 34:36Laurie Santos?

  Jessica had made it through her year of living extrovertedly. She'd embarrassed herself on a tube train, talked candidly with strangers at parties, taken a comedy class, and had bombed in front of an angry crowd at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival. But in spite of it all, she'd still emerged, unscathed.

• 34:54Speaker 04

  The lesson from the year is that I learned a lot and nothing really bad happened to me.

• 34:59Laurie Santos?

  Jessica hasn't quit her day job to become a stand-up regular, but she does still practice many of the social skills she learned during her year-long experiment.

• 35:07Speaker 04

  I would say one of the biggest lessons from the year was to go deeper and be vulnerable and be willing to do it first. Most people want to talk to you, and most people are nicer than we imagine in our heads because I think we build up these big scary judgments that oftentimes don't even exist.

• 35:25Laurie Santos?

  Jessica now uses a series of go-to social hacks to overcome her introversion, little rules that she puts into effect whenever she feels daunted by a scary situation. The first involves breaking her usual cycle of avoidance. If she's invited to a party, she goes, and she even tries to show up early.

• 35:43Speaker 04

  If you show up late, everybody looks like they're already in those little cliques and circles, and you feel like you can't join in, and it's so intimidating. But if you're the first person there, like the second person there, it's not as scary.

• 35:54Laurie Santos?

  But Jessica also warns that you shouldn't underestimate the discomfort you might initially experience doing something new. And this means you need to give yourself a little self-compassion and patience.

• 36:04Speaker 04

  You know, when you go swimming and you get in the water, it's absolutely freezing, but then your body adjusts to it and it doesn't feel so bad. I mean, that's a cliche metaphor, but I think it really works. Like, after you break the ice with one person, it's not as scary with the second one, and it's not scary with the third one, and by the fourth, you know, you're the life of the party.

• 36:21Laurie Santos?

  Jessica has learned to appreciate the benefits of social connection, but the extroverted habits she now engages in regularly haven't fully dismantled her true personality.

• 36:30Speaker 04

  I'm definitely still an introvert. Like, I definitely prefer to be at home or in a small group of people, but I now know I can give a speech, I can talk to a stranger.

• 36:39Laurie Santos?

  And that hard-won social confidence that came from this year-long experiment has had a big impact on Jessica's well-being.

• 36:45Speaker 04

  I had more friends. I had less anxiety. I, you know, in my neighborhood now, I talk to tons of people. I recognize lots of people. It feels like this small, little village in central London. I was a lot happier by the end of the year.

• 36:58Laurie Santos?

  When Jessica first encountered the extroverted psychologist Nick Epley, she was floored by the ease with which he talked to complete strangers, and how quickly he struck up friendships with the workers he met in stores and cafes. Jessica didn't think she'd ever be that comfortable in getting to know strangers herself. But a year into her experiment, she had really changed. A barista in her local coffee shop was one of the first to notice.

• 37:21Speaker 04

  And he said, "I remember when you used to come in here, like, a long time ago." And I was like, "Yeah, I remember that, too." And he said, "You didn't talk to us ever, like, anybody." And I was like, "Yes, that's correct." And he's like, "Now you're, like, friends with each other." And I was like, "Yeah, exactly." And, you know, I didn't say, "Here's the book, and here's why," but he had noticed it. And it was really strange to be perceived as an extrovert. And by the end, I just thought, "I don't even recognize myself." And I don't mean, like, that I was pretending to be someone else, or that I wasn't being true to myself, but it was more like, "I haven't let these fears and anxieties shackle me to the person I've always been. I felt like I had grown and I had changed."

• 38:02Laurie Santos?

  The science shows that we can all enjoy the well-being boost that comes from social connection, no matter what our personality type is. But to get those social connection benefits, we need to actually connect with the people around us, whether we know them well or not. So why not push yourself and get a little more social? You could talk to a local cashier, or a barista, or the person sitting next to you on your commute. And when you dive into conversation, try to push past the shallow stuff and get to topics that feel a little deeper. And remember psychologist Nick Epley's insight, that not everyone waves, but people usually wave back. I hope this episode has given you some tips on how to extrovert a bit more, even and perhaps especially if it doesn't come to you naturally.

• 38:46Laurie Santos?

  And I hope you'll join me again next week for more in our series on getting more social. Next time on The Happiness Lab, with me, Dr. Laurie Santos.

• 38:56Laurie Santos?

  The Happiness Lab is proudly sponsored by Amica Insurance. You know what they say, "If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together." So go with Amica and get coverage from a mutual insurer that's built for their customers, one that looks after what's important to you together—auto, home, life, and more. Amica helps you protect what matters most. Visit amica.com and get a quote today.

• 39:23Laurie Santos?

  Life is full of transitions—a new job, a new routine, a new season you didn't quite plan for. So when things shift, it's worth asking, does your car still fit your life? The right choice won't change everything, but it can make daily moments smoother and a lot less stressful. Cars.com makes it simple. With over 2 million new and used cars, you can use powerful filters to narrow your search by price, mileage, features, whatever matters most to you. And their deal badges highlight when a car is a great price, so you can shop with confidence. Whatever is next, find the right fit at cars.com. Where to next?

• 40:06Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.