The Life-Changing Power of a Sabbatical

It’s hard to focus on wellbeing when we’re expected to work nonstop until retirement. Taking a break from time to time should be a given, not a privilege. Dr. Laurie works in one of the few industries that recognizes the importance of extended time off. As she begins her own year-long sabbatical from Yale, we’re revisiting her conversation with DJ DiDonna, author of Big Time Off https://www.amazon.com/dp/1668060892?lv=shuf&hvlocphy=9004400&hvptwo=&hvnetw=g&mcid=&hvext=374045105006&hvadid=812900695866&language=en_US&hvpone=&hvlocint=&hydadcr=10514_13903615_2508665&hvpos=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvocijid=6488983478029249963--&hvqmt=a&hvexpln=0&tag=smgglusdsadts-20&hvtargid=kwl-2484167636399&adgrpid=195298708937&hvrand=6488983478029249963&channelId=500&ref_=&plpRedirect=mhFallback, about what can happen when we step away from work for more than just a vacation. DJ breaks down how to manage the biggest barriers to taking a sabbatical, from money and workplace optics to family responsibilities. He also explains why extended time off can help us recover from burnout, rethink our routines, and experiment with different versions of ourselves. Whether you’re contemplating months away or just fantasizing about turning off your email, this episode makes the case that sometimes the best way to move forward is to stop for a while. Experts Mentioned: DJ DiDonna https://djdidonna.com/, Senior Lecturer of Business Administration at Harvard Business School Resources Mentioned: Big Time Off: The Transformative Power of Sabbaticals and How to Take One https://www.amazon.com/dp/1668060892?lv=shuf&hvlocphy=9004400&hvptwo=&hvnetw=g&mcid=&hvext=374045105006&hvadid=812900695866&language=en_US&hvpone=&hvlocint=&hydadcr=10514_13903615_2508665&hvpos=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvocijid=6488983478029249963--&hvqmt=a&hvexpln=0&tag=smgglusdsadts-20&hvtargid=kwl-2484167636399&adgrpid=195298708937&hvrand=6488983478029249963&channelId=500&ref_=&plpRedirect=mhFallback, by DJ DiDonna (2026) Recover, Explore, Practice: The Transformative Potential of Sabbaticals https://journals.aom.org/doi/full/10.5465/amd.2021.0100, by Kira Schabram https://journals.aom.org/doi/abs/10.5465/amd.2021.0100, Matt Bloom https://journals.aom.org/doi/abs/10.5465/amd.2021.0100, and DJ DiDonna https://journals.aom.org/doi/abs/10.5465/amd.2021.0100 (Academy of Management Discoveries, 2023) The Sabbatical Project http://www.thesabbaticalproject.org/ Related Episodes: “You Can Change https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/the-happiness-lab-with-dr-laurie-santos/you-can-change” “Happiness Lessons of the Ancients: The Day of Rest https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/the-happiness-lab-with-dr-laurie-santos/happiness-lessons-of-the-ancients-the-day-of-rest” “How to be Happier at Work (with Dan Harris) https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/the-happiness-lab-with-dr-laurie-santos/how-to-be-happier-at-work-with-dan-harris” “Burnout and How to Avoid It https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/the-happiness-lab-with-dr-laurie-santos/burnout-and-how-to-avoid-it” See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:04Speaker 01

  This is Jacob Goldstein from Business History. When the internet arrived, most people used it to look things up. Others saw what it could really do. The same is true with ChatGPT. ChatGPT work goes beyond answering questions. Give it a goal, plus things like notes, files, feedback, data, or project plans, and it can help create a brief analysis, deck outline, tracker, or workflow. You stay in control, reviewing the work and choosing the final result. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started at chatgpt.com by selecting Work Mode, available on Plus and Pro Plans.

• 0:43Speaker 02

  This is a paid message from Apple Card. It's easy, I think, in the hubbub of our lives to lose track of our spending. We pay the bills and move on and don't understand the deeper patterns in our spending, the many different decisions we're making knowingly or unknowingly. You have to understand where your money is going in order to make better decisions about it. That's one reason Apple Card stands out to me. You can earn unlimited daily cash back on every purchase you make. I also appreciate the simplicity. Apple Card doesn't have annual, late, or over the limit fees. No fees ever. There's even an option to open a high-yield savings account through Apple Card. And while I haven't done it yet, if I do, my daily cash can grow automatically over

• 1:28Speaker 02

  time without any extra effort. When you better understand your spending habits, it's easier to make your money work harder for you. Apply in the Wallet app on your iPhone today. Subject to credit approval, variable APRs for Apple Card range from 17.74% to 27.99% based on credit worthiness. Rates as of October 1, 2026. Existing customers can view their variable APR in the Wallet app or card.apple.com. Savings is available to Apple Card owners, subject to eligibility. Savings and Apple Card by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City Branch, Member FDIC. Terms and more at applecard.com.

• 2:12Speaker 03

  This episode is brought to you by Choiceology, an original podcast from Charles Schwab, hosted by the amazing Katie Milkman, behavioral scientist and author of the bestselling book, How to Change. Choiceology is a show about the psychology and economics behind our decisions. Each episode shares the latest research in behavioral science and dives into themes like the power of self-control, shaping your mindset for success, navigating new beginnings, and why starting over can feel so hard. Katie talks to authors, athletes, Nobel laureates, and everyday people about why we make irrational choices and how to make better choices to help avoid costly mistakes. You'll learn about tools and strategies to help improve your decision-making and a

• 2:55Speaker 03

  ton of other fantastic things about the mind. Listen and subscribe at schwab.com/podcast or find it wherever you listen to your shows. Did you know that stress actually shows up on your skin? Tatcha formulates their skincare around this insight, starting with HADIS-A3, their proprietary complex. HADIS-A3 helps to synchronize skin's renewal cycles and boosts your skin's resilience to daily stressors for visibly firmer, smoother, breathtaking skin. It's science-backed skincare that works with your skin, not against it. Visit tacha.com and use code HAPPINESS for 15% off your first purchase. That's T-A-T-C-H-A.com and use code HAPPINESS for 15% off.

• 3:46Speaker 03

  Pushkin.

• 3:51Speaker 03

  Hey, Happiness Lab listeners. Happy August. This time of year means that our show will be going on a little bit of a summer break, and that's quite fitting because I'm also just about to begin my own long break. You see, this entire academic school year, I'll be on sabbatical for my role as a professor at Yale. It's super exciting to get a break, but if I'm being honest, I'm also a little worried that my time away from my teaching could be more challenging than I expect. Will it be weird to make a sudden shift from all my usual to-dos? How can I make the most of this privilege of a little bit of time away to recharge and reflect? Luckily, there are great answers to these questions in an awesome new book called Big Time Off: The Transformative Power of Sabbaticals and How to Take One.

• 4:35Speaker 03

  It's by my good friend and colleague, DJ DeDonna, a professor at Harvard Business School and an expert on why time off is so essential. DJ and I had a chance to talk about the transformative power of time off last year during a live episode at South by Southwest. I decided to share that episode with you again this week, mostly because I need to remind myself about all of DJ's great advice. And if you've been feeling a bit overwhelmed in your own work life and are thinking of looking into a break, I'd very much recommend checking out DJ's new book, Big Time Off. It's on sale now. Okay, here's me and DJ back in the day at Happiness Lab Live at South by Southwest.

• 5:17Speaker 03

  Work. It consumes a lot of our time and a lot of our mental bandwidth. I bet you've had moments where you've longed for a vacation or even fantasized about hitting retirement age. But there's another option for taking a break from the grind, a decision that can help you recharge and reassess. It's called a sabbatical. As a professor, I've had the opportunity to take an academic sabbatical every few years, and I've been very open on the show about just how rejuvenating and important those breaks were. But what if you aren't a professor? Can you still take a months-long break from your job? It may sound like a pipe dream, but more and more workplaces are coming around to the idea that extended employee leaves are a good thing. So to discuss the rise of the sabbatical and its many benefits, I recorded a live

• 6:02Speaker 03

  edition of the Happiness Lab at the 2025 South by Southwest Festival in Austin, and I got to talk with one of the leading advocates of the modern sabbatical. Hello and welcome to the Happiness Lab Live here at South by Southwest.

• 6:19Speaker 03

  I am here in front of a fabulous live audience, and we're going to be talking today about the importance of sabbaticals and taking some rest. And I'm excited to introduce my guest today, DJ DeDonna. DJ is senior lecturer at Harvard Business School. In his former career, he was co-founder of EF Global. These days, DJ spends his time thinking about sabbaticals and their transformative effects. He's most recently become the founder of The Sabbatical Project, a nonprofit aimed at creating a world where extended leave is the norm rather than the exception. Sounds like a world I want to live in, for sure. DJ's work on the transformative benefits of sabbaticals has been labeled Harvard Business Review's New Idea for 2025. So I think we're going to be seeing a lot more of sabbaticals this year than before.

• 7:03Speaker 03

  DJ's work has appeared in The Atlantic, Time Magazine, Fast Company, Fortune, The Wall Street Journal, and lots more. And today, we're going to be talking about the research behind why an extended break can be so important and what you can do to convince yourself and your employer that you might need one. Please join me in welcoming DJ DeDonna.

• 7:30Speaker 03

  So DJ, I'm curious how you became such a fan of sabbaticals. As I understand it, this started with a time when you yourself needed a sabbatical, a moment that you call your ice cream sandwich moment. What was that?

• 7:41Speaker 04

  So I entered sabbatical land, as I call it, as most people do, which is unintentionally. So if you don't take a sabbatical, a sabbatical will take you, likely. You know, I'd run my company for seven years, and I was feeling lower and lower energy, tough to get out of bed, and I was growing even worse facial hair than I have now. And my co-founders were like, are you okay? And I think at some point, you know, when it was your dream job and you can't get out of bed to do your job, there's a problem. It brings up all certain types of emotions around, like, if this won't make me happy, what will? The ice cream sandwich moment was on a particularly sad kind of weekend. It was Friday, had no plans. I was watching a very depressing Netflix series, and I was like, I just really want an ice cream sandwich.

• 8:26Speaker 04

  I lived in Cambridge, and so there's plenty of like late-night mistakes you can make. And but I didn't want to like walk into the cookie place, you know, late at night on a Friday by myself. So I was like, I'll just place an order for this. And I didn't want the delivery driver to think that I was a loser, so I was like, I'll place two orders for ice cream sandwiches. And so I went down, got the sandwiches, you know, hey, I'll be right down. And I come back, I eat one of them, thankfully, not two. And then I go to put the kind of pizza box-sized thing into the fridge. And I woke up the next morning and my fridge had defrosted and ruined my floors. And I was like, okay, this is the sign that I needed to take a sabbatical. So that's how I entered into sabbatical land.

• 9:05Speaker 03

  So you made this decision to take the sabbatical, like, but you were the head of this company that you were loving, like, was that scary? What went through your head as you made that decision?

• 9:14Speaker 04

  You know, one of the reasons why folks call it a sabbatical is because it's this tidy term for something that like feels like your life is ending, right? And so I think for me, you know, I talked to my co-founder, and he was feeling a little bit burnt out as well, especially from the perspective of entrepreneurship. I think if you can't build up an organization that can survive without you after seven or 10 years, you haven't done an awesome job. And so we were both, you know, acknowledging, hey, let's, let's give some time to step away. But honestly, I had no idea what was on the other side. I started it with the pretense that I was going to come back to the company, but I just, I couldn't really continue anymore as it was going. So decided to step away, said four months, feels, you know, like the longest time I've ever taken off by a factor of eight.

• 10:00Speaker 04

  But yeah, so that's, that's what I decided to do.

• 10:02Speaker 03

  And so what happened?

• 10:03Speaker 04

  So when I think about how I describe my sabbatical, because everyone's sabbatical is different, and I don't want to intimidate folks that might not be able to do or want to do the thing that I did, there's like the marquee events. So I did this 800-mile pilgrimage in Japan. I really wanted to investigate on the spiritual side, something that I felt was important but rarely urgent, right? So that was kind of like the marquee event. But really, some of the more impactful moments on the sabbatical were things that I don't put up on the billboard. So I was nursing one of my parents back to health. So I moved back home, you know, at age 32, cooked a lot of meals. I helped a cousin of mine move and another cousin of mine build a deck. So I hung cabinets myself and got to have that experience.

• 10:47Speaker 04

  And, you know, I wrote my first song. I bought a ukulele on Amazon, which is super embarrassing, and I brought it along on the, on the trip. And so I wrote and performed my first song in a place where definitely no one would know me. So that was, that was helpful.

• 11:14Speaker 00

  So I think we're going to talk about what you learned from this and some of the benefits soon, but I want to start with some definitions because I'm a nerdy professor and that's where I go. And so, how do you define a sabbatical?

• 11:25Speaker 04

  So, the definition that I think about is an intentional extended leave from your routine job. So intentional, not that you have to have made the decision to take it because most sabbaticals kind of happen to you, but that once you're on sabbatical, you stay there, right? And so, as soon as we leave a job, our new job is to find another job, right? It's like very hard to be in that kind of liminal state between careers, between jobs. So, in order for it to be a sabbatical, you gotta like create space, not look for another job. Extended, so it has to be measured in months, not weeks. I think we like to say at least three months. I took four. I wish it would have been six. Most people, I think, would like to take between six and 12. Nine is very symbolic

• 12:08Speaker 04

  because you're kind of like creating something anew. And then, from your routine job, so most folks, especially type A achievers, probably some in this room, will say like, "All right, I'm gonna go off work and then I'm gonna learn how to be fluent in a foreign language," or "I'm gonna like write a book," or something like that. And what we found in the research is actually that, that active rest, so doing a job that is not your job can actually be fulfilling and healing, as long as it's not similar to your routine job at all, right? So, don't do like consulting projects to make a little bit more money, like really switch out of your routine job, routine work, into something that feels fulfilling. So, write that book, like become a yoga teacher certified, right? But it has to be very different from what you're doing.

• 12:49Speaker 00

  It's kind of a funny word, right? You use this term extended leave. It's not a vacation, it's a sabbatical. It kind of sounds almost like old school, like in the Bible, like a sabbatical, right? I mean, is that intentional? Where did this concept come from?

• 13:02Speaker 04

  Yeah, so the root of the word is ancient, comes from Hebrew scripture, Shabbat, right? And so, this concept that you work for six days and on the seventh day, you devote that to worship. That also expanded out into, you're supposed to till the fields for six years and then let them lie fallow for one year. And so, that's the notion of the rest, right? That you have to have rest in some sort of period of time. Then it was kind of taken on by academia. So, late 19th century, the president of Harvard, I went through and looked up the notes, like the minutes, the meeting minutes, which is fun. They had done research on like how much breaks do faculty need in order to replenish themselves and also to do research. So, they would have to go over to Europe to figure out like what's

• 13:44Speaker 04

  actually going on in the academy. And the funny thing about that was that, in the definition there, it talked about rest and recovery, and also pursuit of science and knowledge. And if you look now, like the rest and recovery piece is totally dubiously absent from, from all these kind of academic sabbatical leave policies. But, that's the, the basic history of the terminology.

• 14:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, as a professor, many people in academia get something like a sabbatical. I think it's going away. But, this is really rare in other fields, right?

• 14:14Speaker 04

  Totally rare. And it's increasingly rare in academia, right? Folks that are, you know, are not getting paid for it, or it's shrinking down into a semester, maybe we can talk about your sabbatical later. But, it's, you know, about 5% of companies offer this policy. It's much more prevalent, you know, in kind of like tech and, and companies where they're really trying to recruit talent and retain talent. And it's increasing, so it's doubled since 2019, and it seems to be increasing over time, but still definitely the minority, especially like a paid sabbatical with some sort of benefits and that sort of thing.

• 14:46Speaker 00

  And so, you've done this cool project where you've been studying sabbaticals scientifically. You've done hundreds of interviews, dozens of different academic studies. From your research, I'm curious, who is taking sabbaticals and why are they taking them?

• 14:59Speaker 04

  So, when I first started out, I thought I was the customer. And so, people who are in their mid-30s and 40s who burn out, take sabbaticals. And then, what I started to realize is that folks are starting as early as kind of gap years, they're tagging along with their parents' sabbaticals. So, when I thought about the research and the book, it's kind of going from gap years to twilight careers. So, kind of like pre-retirement type age. So, it's really anyone that either has something forced upon them, or takes this opportunity to take time off. I think gap years are a great example of that.

• 15:31Speaker 00

  And so, why are they taking them? Like, what happens?

• 15:33Speaker 04

  Yeah. You know, 2/3 of sabbaticals are catalyzed by a very negative event. So, either a personal health crisis, or you get fired, or, you know, let's say like a global calamity or pandemic forces you to think about work totally differently. And then there's also positive catalysts, right? So, you sell your company, you know, you get like a kind of employment leave, things like that. And then, I like to say this neutral catalyst of, if you have a company, if you work for a company with a sabbatical policy, then you get to take that time off and you don't even have to think about it. And, you know, there are a lot of companies that offer that. And then also, countries that enable people to do it. Like, in Sweden, you can take six months off to try to start a business. In Australia, if you're a civil servant, you get six months off every seven years.

• 16:17Speaker 00

  Man, I didn't realize there are countries that were doing this. That is exciting. And that also reminds me that your research has shown that there's lots of misconceptions when it comes to sabbaticals. So, let's, let's go through some of these. I think when I think of sabbaticals, I first think, maybe we're just dealing with like a longish vacation. How is a sabbatical different than that?

• 16:35Speaker 04

  So, everyone who has taken a sabbatical has also taken a vacation, and they're saying that something profoundly different is going on. When you're on vacation, all the things you're on vacation from are piling up in the back, right? Your inbox is piling up, you know that you have to come back to work and get things done. When you're on sabbatical, you're gone long enough so that those things are off of your plate, so you can actually kind of deepen into what's going on, and you don't have to worry about like what's happening at work.

• 17:02Speaker 00

  And so, different misconception is this idea that sabbaticals are basically a midlife crisis. It's your freak out, you don't know what you're doing, you're burning out. Like, I guess that's maybe part of some sabbaticals, but that doesn't define it.

• 17:13Speaker 04

  Yeah. So, we talked about the times when people take the sabbaticals over the course of their life. And we talked about whether or not you take a sabbatical or a sabbatical takes you. So, that can certainly be the case, where you're living a life that doesn't feel authentic to you long enough, that you feel like you have to kind of burn the boats and like cast off lines. I think I was a little precocious in my midlife crisis, like a little bit earlier than midlife, hopefully. Think about it like a dental cleaning appointment. Like, you want to take these like cleaning appointments, right? We don't love them, but you try to take them every six months, so that you don't have like a root canal emergency. So, the whole goal of this is, can you identify inflection points in your life to take them off, as opposed to waiting for some big crisis to pull you into sabbatical land?

• 17:54Speaker 00

  All right. Here's another misconception that I think comes on the employer's side. The idea that a sabbatical is basically just a golden parachute. Like, you take a break from a job that you're thinking about basically getting the heck out of anyway. Is this the case?

• 18:06Speaker 04

  So, what we found in the research is that the super majority of people that take a sabbatical that's enabled by their company, come back. So, over 80% come back to their job. So, it's not really a golden parachute. Now, people do leave, but the difference, and we can get more into this around kind of what's in it for companies, the difference is, you're spending a bunch of time preparing the company to do all the tasks that you're doing, before you leave on sabbatical. And so, you're kind of like preparing the company for you to be gone. And you're also like allowing the company to see like, what are all the things that you do? Who else could be doing it? Who could be stepping up in your midst? Things like that. So, not really a golden parachute, but people do leave. I think the argument is, if someone's gonna leave as soon as you let them out of the door and off the leash, like, were they doing great work?

• 18:51Speaker 00

  Yeah. And but, do we have data on it? Like, how many people actually take off after a sabbatical?

• 18:55Speaker 04

  About 20%, yeah.

• 18:57Speaker 00

  So, it is, it's non-zero, but it's not like 80% or 100%?

• 19:00Speaker 04

  And, you know, 100% of the people who don't have a sabbatical policy at work are taking off to take a sabbatical.

• 19:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's fair. That's fair. And that gets to a different misconception, which is this idea that sabbaticals are sort of costly for businesses. But, but you've argued a better way to think about them as an investment. What do you mean?

• 19:17Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think, listen, as I was saying about an entrepreneurial company, if it, if it can't survive without you leaving it as a leader, that's a problem. Similarly, turnover is just something that happens. Like, how many people here have left a job, right?

• 19:30Speaker 00

  That was a lot of hands for the listeners at home.

• 19:32Speaker 04

  Yeah, some of them haven't left a job. So, people are gonna leave anyway, and as a company, you have to be prepared. You have to be resilient to survive turnover. People are gonna quit, they're gonna go on parental leave. And so, it is practice, it's like building a muscle of figuring out what tasks you have, offloading them onto other people, and really kind of investing in that muscle of, as a company.

• 19:52Speaker 00

  So, when we get back from the break, we're gonna see why a sabbatical can be such a helpful investment, not just for the person taking it, but even more for the company that allows it. The Happiness Lab will be back in a moment.

• 20:09Speaker 03

  You know those pieces in your closet that you find yourself reaching for over and over again? The sweater that somehow works with everything? The jeans you know will always fit just right? Those are the pieces that earn a permanent place in your wardrobe. And that's exactly what Quince does so well. I recently pulled my fall clothes out of storage, and I was so excited to see my black Mongolian cashmere full zip hoodie that I got from Quince. It's soft and warm and perfect for cozy nights. I love it so much that I now have a gray one in my quince.com cart right now. And when I buy that new gray hoodie, I know I'll feel good about my choice because everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. And as the weather gets colder, Quince has everything you need to round out your wardrobe,

• 20:53Speaker 03

  from warm, reasonably sourced down jackets and cozy cashmere scarves and gloves to beautiful 14 karat gold jewelry. Find the fall pieces you'll reach for most at Quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns, now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was the Happiness Lab. It's the best way to support the show.

• 21:21Speaker 01

  This is Jacob Goldstein from Business History. Imagine Henry Ford trying to create the assembly line. He had factory plans, production schedules, supply information, research, and ideas coming from all directions. His team spent years studying how to make the process work. Now imagine having ChatGPT work. ChatGPT work can help with big projects that have lots of steps. You give it the goal along with real information like notes, files, reports, feedback, and project plans. It can use approved apps, connected tools, and files to help turn all of that into something useful. A plan, an analysis, a tracker, a presentation outline, or a workflow you can keep improving. And you stay in control.

• 22:04Speaker 01

  You give direction, review the work, approve actions, and choose the final result. Would Henry Ford have built the assembly line faster with ChatGPT? We'll never know. Ford didn't have ChatGPT. You do. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started at chatgpt.com by selecting work mode, available on Plus and Pro plans.

• 22:27Speaker 03

  I just moved into my new sabbatical house, and I've been trying to make it feel more me. The living room is already furnished with a boho vibe, but it lacked the perfect rug to bring the room together. That's why I turned to Wayfair. I bought Wayfair's washable, distressed, vintage floral oriental rug in blue. That rug is so soft and cozy, and I was able to find it in a vintage-looking blue color that perfectly matched the rest of the items in the space. And with Wayfair, you can get rooms that look great at every price point. I'm only staying in my sabbatical place for a short time, so I didn't want to spend a lot on a new rug. But with Wayfair, you can shop thousands of products across every style and budget, whether you're simply replacing an appliance or transforming your home from top to bottom for the holiday season.

• 23:11Speaker 03

  And now that the weather's getting colder, I gotta say that I'm especially loving the coziness of my new rug. Find pieces made for real life and get even more value with Wayfair Rewards. Join Wayfair Rewards today to get 5% back on every purchase. Head to wayfair.com to shop all things home. That's W A Y F A I R dot com.

• 23:31Speaker 05

  Wayfair, every style, every home.

• 23:34Speaker 03

  This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. There are plenty of reasons we put off getting support, and for a lot of people, cost is one of them. With BetterHelp, insurance options may now be available nationwide with an average copay for eligible members of just $23 per session. And while we're reconsidering old assumptions, maybe there are a few others worth questioning too. Women these days inherit a lot of unwritten rules. Be ambitious, but not too ambitious. Be there for everyone, but still make time for yourself. Have it all together, but don't look like you're trying too hard. I've been trying to unwrit the unwritten rule that I'm never allowed to say no, that it makes me a bad person. I've been trying to give myself the grace that I would give other people and to remember

• 24:18Speaker 03

  that no one has the bandwidth to do everything all the time. If you're trying to work through your own unwritten rules, therapy may be of help. If you've been waiting to start therapy, BetterHelp works with more than 125 health plan networks, and eligible members have an average copay of just $23 per session with insurance. Don't have insurance or live outside the US? You can still get 10% off your first month. Visit betterhelp.com/laurie to explore your payment options. That's better H E L P dot com slash Laurie. You're listening to a live edition of the Happiness Lab, recorded at South by Southwest 2025 with my friend, the sabbatical expert, DJ Dedana.

• 25:03Speaker 03

  I started this next section of the show by asking DJ to give us a breakdown of the average sabbatical and to explain how the benefits of taking a break tend to unfold.

• 25:12Speaker 04

  Yeah, so from a personal perspective, I think you can expect a lot of things. And if you're coming into the sabbatical super burnt out, then you probably need to heal, and that's going to be the first thing that you get. So in the research in my interviews, I talked to a ton of people that had some sort of physical ailment, whether it's ulcers, stomach, gastro stuff, and they've been told by doctors, this is stress-related. But until they actually stepped away from work long enough for that to heal, they couldn't kind of grok that, right? So I think healing is one of the first things. Creativity is one of the next things. So you're taking time off and you're doing whatever you want to do. And that ends up like kind of reigniting a lot of creativity. For me, it was writing silly songs on a ukulele, but like whatever you would like to do.

• 25:57Speaker 04

  We think about like working on ourselves as work as opposed to play. So there's this concept of identity play as helping you kind of like run little experiments, figure out what you want to do next. And then I think confidence is a huge one. No matter if you have a sabbatical policy at your company or not, it's pretty scary to launch off for an extended period of time. Like I'd never taken more than a couple of weeks off work since, I don't know, middle school. And so to take four months off, that's scary, especially if you're leaving your job. What are you going to do on the other side of it? That sort of thing. And so being able to do something that seems scary and then come back and say, actually, I'm fine, really builds up people's confidence to take big steps and big leaps. It's also hopefully running experiments on your sabbatical to say like, oh, I thought

• 26:41Speaker 04

  that I wanted to write and I actually like writing, and so that builds up confidence in the ability to do it.

• 26:46Speaker 03

  And it seems like from your research, when you talk to people, these benefits are really common. Like this is just what you hear everybody who takes sabbaticals saying.

• 26:53Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, it's funny because I came back from my sabbatical and I said, that was, it really changed who I was as a person. So this kind of identity was enmeshed with my company, and if the company was successful, I was successful. If it wasn't, I wasn't. And so I was able to kind of break free from that. But I wanted to check to make sure it wasn't just my experience. And so the more folks that I talked to, the more you just kept hearing these terms like peak life experience. It's up there with like having a child, like getting married. So you're creating an event for yourself that will be one of the most important events of your entire life.

• 27:27Speaker 03

  It also seems like you take time to notice the things that you're not doing. You've talked a lot in your work about this idea of functional workaholism and how a sabbatical can help you penetrate into that a little bit. What do you mean?

• 27:38Speaker 04

  Yeah, so we talk a lot about burnout. I view burnout as a spectrum. So you're kind of like, you're like burning out, right? You're existing on a spectrum where you're not doing your best, not feeling great. That's kind of hard to realize unless you step out from it. And stepping out, I'm assuming you've all had the experience where you go on a vacation for a week and right at the end, you're like, oh, man, I was just sinking into it. And then you have to plop back into work. So stepping out long enough to say, wow, the way that I was working and the way that I was living was actually not serving me. And I wanted to just step out of that for a little bit. I might want to make a big change, but obviously people's experience of COVID varied widely. But I think a lot of folks saw, oh, man, now that I'm back at home with my family, I actually want to do that more. And like the way that I was kind of returning back to my family or, you know, even how I was working was not really great.

• 28:23Speaker 04

  So you needed like some perspective and like a long enough break from the norm to understand that.

• 28:29Speaker 03

  And also this seems connected to this idea you've talked about called regret insurance, right? Maybe like a benefit that comes later in life. What's that?

• 28:36Speaker 04

  Like imagine you're, you know, the age of your grandparents and you're telling your grandkid a story. Like what do you want to have in that story? Bronnie Ware, who is a palliative care nurse, talks about the five regrets of the dying and this notion that you have not lived a life authentic to yourself. If you close your eyes real quick and think like, what would I want to do with my life if I could do anything? Can that happen in the life that you're living now? Maybe, but probably not. Like it takes a little bit of time. And taking six months off in the scheme of working for 40 years is just not that much time. It's less than, it's like 2%.

• 29:09Speaker 03

  I mean, if you knew then what you knew now, would you still choose the sabbatical? Would you do it differently?

• 29:14Speaker 04

  Yeah, actually, one of the things that spurred me into taking my sabbatical was advice from a mentor. I went into that mentor's office and I was complaining, you know, hey, like this is hard, this is tough. The company's not working as much as I would like it to be or whatnot. And he said, DJ, if you knew then all the things you know about your life and your company now, would you join that company again tomorrow? And it was very clear. I was like, absolutely not. And so I think like the tough part about our lives is it's lived kind of with this inertia. You've made a bunch of small decisions and all of a sudden you find yourself in this path. And so I guess encouraging you to think about would you want to return to this exact life? And if not, how are you going to run experiments to figure out what other track you need to be on? So long way to answer your question, but I look back at that time and it's the most dense

• 29:59Speaker 04

  period of memories in my entire life. It was eight years ago, right now, I was walking in Japan. And so that will serve me, I think, for the rest of my life.

• 30:06Speaker 00

  So it seems like sabbaticals are serving the people who take them. But now I really want to jump into these benefits that employers can get. Cause I think this, this is one of the reasons that sabbaticals aren't this equal for everyone, that not every company is doing this, right? Is I think employers are really worried about whether this is going to be incredibly costly for companies. We talked a little bit about some of these benefits, but I want to do a deeper dive. Like what are companies really getting out of this when they set up sabbatical policies?

• 30:30Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think it's a great point in the sense that the best case scenario is that a sabbatical that doesn't require you to like blow your life up, doesn't require you to save up for 10 years is possible because your company values you enough to do it. And so all of us who work at companies who are managers are also people. So we're taking our like people hat off and putting our company hat on. So this resilience is just a huge piece. Like having a company be able to withstand what they call key person risk. One of the interviewees was like the principal and founder of this boarding school in South Africa. And, you know, he'd been there from day one, it was 10 years in, and he stepped aside for six months because his spouse was doing a degree in Europe. And by stepping away, he was able to see that like some of the things ran really well

• 31:15Speaker 04

  in his absence, maybe even like a little bit better, right? The operations side. And then other stuff like fundraising fell off an absolute cliff, right? And so the organization got to see what it was like when he stepped away and, you know, junior folks got to step up into roles and have kind of career stretch experiences. But also he got to figure out like, okay, if I get hit by a bus tomorrow, like this thing is going to fail and that's not great. And so like really developing like the resilience to say, okay, if I do want to transition out, what kind of skills do I need to kind of manage inside of the organization? So I think tenure and loyalty to the company. We talk a lot about people finding meaning at work, but at the end of the day, I'm sorry, like most companies cannot provide a ton of like meaning and purpose. And so, yeah.

• 31:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:00Speaker 04

  And that's fine, that's fine. But I think what the company can do is they can give you time to yourself to do the thing that's meaningful for you. And I think the impact of that is that people have more loyalty to the company. One of our interviewees was from the US Treasury, but they had this long service leave policy where you can take six months off. And she got to go and do like mountaineering and trekking in Latin America. And it was long enough to say, I like trekking, I like being on vacation, but I also really like the work, you know, international development work. She was not planning on having a family. She's like, I appreciate the ability to step outside of my work for a stretch and become kind of appreciative of that work again. And I know I can do it every seven to 10 years. So that kind of like loyalty. And I also think that creates authentic company culture because there's a financial advisory

• 32:45Speaker 04

  firm in Seattle called Breitling Jones that has these sabbaticals every 10 years. And people come back and they're doing like a slideshow of their sabbatical and everyone's excited for those folks because they know they get it as well. And so the company values you as a whole human being. And also like they get to celebrate your experience because they know they get to take it, which is different than someone being like, I had a great honeymoon. You're like, oh, man, I didn't, you know.

• 33:10Speaker 00

  You've also argued that it can help employees like increase their innovation over time. And it's not necessarily that their skills building, although that happens in some cases with sabbaticals, it's more just that like time off builds this innovation.

• 33:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, so one of the interviewees was a CTO of a tech company, stepped away and was engaging this kind of identity play I talked about. So, you know, was a developer in college, but had really not played around with like mobile app development. And so was like futzing around and created this app to help text to speech folks, right? And so that turned into being a company that he started. Started from just wanting to learn and play. I think this like play muscle is really underutilized. And I think it's really important to have folks like step away and regenerate their ability to solve problems creatively, because you don't know what's coming around the corner as technology kind of accelerates. So you have to be, you know, able to see outside of the box.

• 34:03Speaker 00

  And that's helpful for companies when people come back too, I assume.

• 34:06Speaker 04

  Totally, yeah. I mean, you have to solve problems inside of companies, right?

• 34:09Speaker 00

  And so it's starting to seem obvious that the sabbaticals are a good idea for workers, they're a good idea for companies, probably a good idea for like society and us as people, right? Right, right? But only 5% of non-academic companies are doing this. And so DJ, this is now your life's mission, your dream to make sabbaticals more equitable. But to do that, we have to overcome all the barriers that we and our employers feel when it comes to giving us a sabbatical. And we're going to get to those barriers when we come back from the break. The Happiness Lab live from South by Southwest. We'll be right back.

• 34:51Speaker 01

  This is Jacob Goldstein from Business History. Imagine Henry Ford trying to create the assembly line. He had factory plans, production schedules, supply information, research, and ideas coming from all directions. His team spent years studying how to make the process work. Now imagine having ChatGPT work. ChatGPT work can help with big projects that have lots of steps. You give it the goal along with real information like notes, files, reports, feedback and project plans. It can use approved apps, connected tools and files to help turn all of that into something useful. A plan, an analysis, a tracker, a presentation outline, or a workflow you can keep improving. And you stay in control.

• 35:34Speaker 01

  You give direction, review the work, approve actions and choose the final result. Would Henry Ford have built the assembly line faster with ChatGPT? We'll never know. Ford didn't have ChatGPT. You do. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started at chatgpt.com by selecting work mode, available on plus and pro plans.

• 35:57Speaker 03

  Life has a funny way of changing when we're not even looking. One day your routine feels set and the next something shifts. A new job, a move, or maybe just a quiet realization that what used to work doesn't quite fit anymore. On this show, we talk a lot about how the little things in our daily lives shape our wellbeing, often more than the big flashy milestones. And that includes what we drive. Because when something you use every single day feels aligned with your life, it removes friction. It makes ordinary moments smoother, less stressful. That's where cars.com comes in. They have over 2 million new and used cars and powerful filters that let you narrow your

• 36:40Speaker 03

  search by price, mileage, features, whatever actually matters to you. And their deal badges highlight when a listing is a great price, so you can feel confident you're making a smart choice. It's not just about buying a car, it's about choosing something that truly fits your routine and your next chapter. Start your search at cars.com, where to next? I'm in the market for a new mattress upgrade for my guest room. I want my friends to actually look forward to staying over. And that means a mattress that makes my friends feel welcomed. That's why I'm going to turn to Helix. Helix has over 20 different mattress models, so whether you're shopping for yourself, a guest room, or even someone with a very specific sleep preference, there's a good chance that

• 37:24Speaker 03

  Helix has something that's a great fit. And if you've got guests that complain about being too warm, Helix even has cooling options on select models. And with Helix, buying a mattress online doesn't have to feel like a gamble. Helix gives you a 120 night sleep trial, so you actually get to sleep on the mattress in your own home, instead of laying on one in a showroom for five minutes and hoping for the best. If you've been putting off replacing your mattress, or you're finally ready to give your guest room the upgrade it deserves, check out Helix. Go to helixsleep.com/happiness for 30% off site wide. That's helixsleep.com/happiness for 30% off site wide. Make sure you enter our show name after checkout so they know we sent you.

• 38:08Speaker 03

  helixsleep.com/happiness. A business gift is never just a gift. It's a thank you, a milestone, a moment of appreciation. It's a message about how much someone matters and what your brand stands for. At 4imprint, you'll find thousands of customizable options like premium apparel, branded drinkware, tech totes and more, each chosen not just for function, but for meaning. You can tailor every detail, your logo, your message, your presentation, so your gift feels personal and on brand. And with expert support, dependable service and thousands without a setup fee, creating something thoughtful doesn't mean making it complicated.

• 38:49Speaker 03

  Every order is backed by 4imprint's 360 degree guarantee, so you can be 4imprint certain it'll arrive exactly as expected, on time, and with the care your brand deserves. Because when the moment matters, the right gift speaks volumes and the right partner makes it easy. Explore gifting with purpose and certainty at 4imprint.com. 4imprint, for certain.

• 39:17Speaker 00

  Sabbaticals seem like a good idea, but let's go through some of the worries that people have when considering a sabbatical, or just like the actual barriers that come up when you detonate your life for six months in some ways. One of these barriers is the optics. I think people are really worried about what this is going to look like. Is that something that you experienced?

• 39:36Speaker 04

  When I first thought about what the barriers were, you know, around seven years ago, optics was one of the biggest ones. So what are people going to think about the fact you took time off? That has changed significantly since then. I think one of the enabling features is that LinkedIn introduced a career breaks role that you could put in, which is tremendous. Like hundreds of thousands of people now proudly kind of talk about their career breaks. The other thing is just like this story about a successful business and a successful life is also changing. So people are starting to hear, in addition to the CEOs running multiple companies sleeping under the desk thing, they're starting to realize that folks like Steve Jobs was studying calligraphy for a year. And you have the CEO of Impossible Foods figured out his company on sabbatical.

• 40:19Speaker 04

  Like, there's actually a lot of roles for you to kind of find that creative energy when you step away. The other thing I think about, if you're interviewing for a job and you tell them that you took a career break and they disqualify you for the position, that's a great sign that maybe you didn't want to work at that company. It's like a kind of a revealed preference.

• 40:38Speaker 04

  And also, I've also found that in interviews, people want to talk about, oh, you traveled for six months, like, what did you do? What was your favorite? Like, that makes you an interesting person. And it also shows that you had the courage and self-confidence to take time off and do something for yourself, which I think the majority of people are going to be like, that's awesome. Like, I want this person on the team.

• 40:57Speaker 00

  So it seems like the story is changing, but it also seems like we need to change the story in our own heads. Like, part of the problem of optics seems like it's what we think other people are going to judge us about, but it also is a lot about what we're judging ourselves about, too.

• 41:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, I did a study of my Harvard Business School classmates 10 years out, and 90% of people were concerned about how a career break would look. And less than 5% of people actually cared whether or not someone took a career break. So it's this weird dynamic where you assume that people might take you less seriously, but it's just not the case. And the way to kind of solve that in our research, we identified this concept called exemplars, which is fancy for examples. So like, find an example in your life, someone that looks like you, someone that has a similar job to you, who has taken this time off, so that you can actually see for yourself, like, oh, I'll be fine on the other side.

• 41:46Speaker 00

  I love that example because it seems like part of the problem with sabbaticals is like, for many people, this is just going to be the first time you're letting yourself do something that's not like work for any, like, any stretch of time whatsoever.

• 41:57Speaker 04

  It's very uncomfortable. It's not a natural feeling. It kind of creates a vacuum, right? Because you had all these responsibilities, and even though you want to not be checking email, when all of a sudden you're cut off from email and your calendar, like, the first part of sabbaticals can be difficult. And that's one part I think folks don't get. Like, you're on sabbatical, must be amazing, and you're actually beating yourself up about leaving, not knowing what you're going to do next. And so it is like an identity transformation. And in order to transform yourself, you got to really do some, you know, like, some thinking and some breaking apart of who you are.

• 42:30Speaker 00

  Okay, so that's the optics, like internally and externally. Another big one, just practically, is responsibility. Like, we have professional responsibilities, personal responsibilities, we're parents, there's like logistical challenges. How did you navigate this stuff? And what are some suggestions?

• 42:47Speaker 04

  So I think that almost no one can throw all of their responsibilities off tomorrow, right? And so if you treat it like an emergency root canal, like, that's difficult. If you say, what is everyone here in this room doing in 2031? Like, no one has any idea, right? So if you say, like, in 2031, I'm taking six months off, and you work towards that, man, 2031 is coming up, actually.

• 43:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, 2031 is not very far away. But it's going to be awesome for the folks in this room because everybody started nodding when you said that, 2031, right?

• 43:15Speaker 04

  So if you can set some time in the future and say, like, I'm committing to take six months off, then all of a sudden you can save up for it, you can signpost it with your employers, and it's not a big deal. This is just part of who I am. I take six months off six years from now. The other thing is, you hear a lot about responsibilities. I have kids, like, they have, like, how am I going to pull them out of school, put them back in school? Time and time again, it's difficult, but the people who have children who take sabbatical have the most inspiring stories, hands down. Because they'll say stuff like, I just had begun to think about my kids as a set of responsibilities and tasks, like, take them here, pick them up from here. When in actuality, what's happening is people are showing their kids, what is astronomy? Oh, you're seeing the stars from Patagonia.

• 43:59Speaker 04

  Seeing them and getting excited about that. Like, what is zoology? And you're going to the Serengeti and you're seeing like animals up close. What is geology? You're in like the Grand Canyon. And so it enables you to see the world through their eyes and actually give them an experience that will sit with them for their entire life. There's a movie called Blink that we saw, I don't know if you've seen it, but distributed by Nat Geo. And it's this family in Quebec where they have, I think, three or four kids that have this kind of ocular degeneration disease. And so they only have a certain amount of time that their kids are going to be able to see the world. And so they decided to like take a year off so the kids could like absorb as many images about the world as possible. So I think about that, like, taking it from a responsibility that you have to take care

• 44:42Speaker 04

  of to a responsibility to allow your kids, or you and your spouse, or yourself, to get to experience the world in a different way than our just routine life.

• 44:51Speaker 00

  I also think that it's probably really great for parents to show kids and to model, like, be that exemplar for taking some time off, and also just like not be so burned out around their kids. Like, I do worry with some of like my adult friends with kids that those are kids that have only ever seen their parents super stressed out. And I feel like it must just be rejuvenating for kids to see parents taking time off, too.

• 45:11Speaker 04

  Absolutely. You have to model this behavior, right? And I actually have two good friends who are on sabbatical in Kenya right now. And just seeing them kind of go from having groceries delivered, meals delivered, like, no time to do anything, into like teaching their kids how to ride bikes, you know, it's really inspiring. And life is too short, right? Again, a silver lining of the pandemic for many people is that you realize that life is fragile and it's short, and you just can't bet on 2031 even. Who knows? So maybe you should set it to 2029 when you take your sabbatical.

• 45:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, we got to get it in as soon as possible. Okay, so we've talked about optics, we've talked about responsibility. I think the elephant in the room when it comes to sabbaticals is cost, right? Just financially, I think if you survey most people, my guess is most people are going to say, that sounds awesome, but it's just completely out of reach. How do we solve for this?

• 46:02Speaker 04

  So, I mean, the first and obvious answer is that if this is supported by companies, countries, like our culture, then it's not a problem at all. And if you can plan it in advance, right? So a couple of people from the study were teachers. They had taken a sabbatical right before they got married and backpacked around the world. So it's like, we want to do this when our kids are a certain age. So they saved up for 10 years because it was important to them. And they did it, and it turned out, actually, they drove a Land Rover across to the tip of South America from Arizona. And it turned out that there was so much maintenance with the Land Rover that the guy got really good at it. And he came back and he was like, I actually want to start a Land Rover business. So now he like refurbishes Land Rovers and takes people on tours.

• 46:46Speaker 04

  But yeah, so if you're thinking about it as something that has to happen tomorrow, very few people can afford it. If you're planning it out and saying, this is important to me, I'm going to save 5% a year, then it's not that big of a deal. The other thing I would say is that, I've heard this over and over again, where when you're at a company, your raises are kind of on a schedule. It's like, you get a 5% raise, or here's what you're eligible for. When you switch jobs, you actually get paid a lot more because you're being valued at the market rate for your skills. And so lots of folks are saying, I quit my job, they wouldn't give me a sabbatical. I joined another company and I got a raise, so it essentially made the sabbatical free. So your mileage may vary, but that's a dynamic that we kind of get trapped in as we've been at a company for a long time.

• 47:29Speaker 00

  You've also noted that it's also just worth asking, because lots of companies have policies that are like this, that might be hidden or not talked about, too.

• 47:36Speaker 04

  Yeah, there's these secret policies. I think that if you want to do it and you're kind of set on it, and you're like, listen, I'm either leaving or they're giving me a sabbatical. Like, at that point, you're going to leave. And so you can talk frankly with your manager about this, and I've seen this many times where someone says, all right, let's like, let's work this thing out. Can we wait a year so we can prep the team? Okay, cool. How about, like, we're not going to give you full pay, but how about partial pay? Or how about just retaining benefits? And what we find is that most people, if you just retain benefits, because that's the scary thing, they can save up for it. And so, again, like, how far in advance are you planning on doing it? But I would talk to people who aren't your manager first and try to find an exemplar, and then you can kind of approach that subject. And one of the reasons why we have like a kind of a support group on Facebook and LinkedIn,

• 48:21Speaker 04

  where you can ask other people what their best practices were in doing it. You can find people who maybe worked in your industry or in your company who have taken it, so that's helpful.

• 48:30Speaker 00

  Okay, so this is how kind of personally we can sort of fight some of the barriers. Let's talk about maybe some of the structural barriers. Hopefully, there are folks in the room who are themselves employers, maybe big CEOs of companies who are hearing about these benefits and want to start offering sabbatical policies, or want to develop a company policy that can help folks do this. What do employers actually need to make sabbaticals a thing?

• 48:50Speaker 04

  So in order to make it equitable for folks, it's got to have to be paid, right? So allow people to be able to take it and not take a huge financial hit. I think in order to make it successful, like, the worst thing that can happen is you roll out a sabbatical policy and it's too short, or you don't allow your employees to disconnect, and then you've had people who are gone from the workplace and then also haven't gotten the benefits. And so give folks enough time, ideally months. You know, what we found in the research is that it takes about six to eight weeks for you to really like become yourself again. Think about that. You take a two-week vacation, up to two months to really feel like, oh, I am me. I'm not just this collection of jobs and responsibilities. So give them enough time and ensure disconnection.

• 49:34Speaker 04

  So best practice, disable the email. Auto respond. You'd be surprised if you have an auto response that says, I'm coming back to the office in September, I'm deleting this entire inbox, like emailing me in September. Folks will just email you in September. It's not the end of the world. So disconnection, I think, duration and support.

• 49:51Speaker 00

  So you've also talked about some ways that companies can make this the norm, or make this seen as like not a bad thing to do. What are some ways that companies can do that?

• 49:58Speaker 04

  Yeah, so the norm that exists is this so-called work devotion norm, where people are kind of like, feel like they have to be devoted to work, they can't be seen as taking time off. This is why things like unlimited vacation, which is a total boondoggle, like, doesn't work, because you don't see people taking time off, and so then you don't feel like you can take it. So I think the first thing that leaders can do is take the breaks themselves to kind of model this. So Sweden also has, man, Sweden's getting a lot of love for this episode. Sweden also has like kind of world-leading paternity leave. And what they've found is that, like, even though you get paid paternity leave, fathers wouldn't take it unless their bosses took it. You got to model that behavior, you got to celebrate it inside the company in order for folks to take it.

• 50:39Speaker 00

  What are some examples of positive impacts on organizations for their leaders? Like, is it just the people at the top that benefit from this? Or do you also see like frontline workers taking these things and benefiting?

• 50:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, so it's a lot more rare to have folks across the spectrum of the organization just because of the financial responsibilities and things like that. So I talked to this startup called Skylight. At the beginning stages of a startup, if you've ever worked for one or started one, no one's taking a sabbatical at the beginning. But if you can get through the first like four or five years, then you can make some space. And so the CEO, Michael, their first employee was just really burnt out. And so allowed her to take two months off, come back. And then during that time, it's a little bit cheating on the sabbatical, but she had investigated a bunch of AI tools and like got trained up. And so she was able to bring that back, which was integrated into the product and actually made it quite successful and kind of changed the trajectory of it.

• 51:32Speaker 04

  The other example that I like to tell is there's a CEO, Sheryl Johnson, of this organization in Detroit, so like the Coalition to End Homelessness. And there's funders that fund nonprofits in places like Detroit, LA, San Francisco, Boston. They convince the boards of nonprofits to allow their leaders and their employees to take time off and they fund it, right? And so the point of that, again, to prevent this key person risk at a nonprofit, where the leader is super important and charismatic. And so they're like convincing these boards to let these nonprofit employees leave because like burnout started in the care sector, right? I'm on like nurses, healthcare workers, nonprofit leaders. If you really care about your job, you don't want to leave it because you feel like you're letting people down.

• 52:15Speaker 04

  And so I think in the nonprofit industry, actually, you see that a lot as well.

• 52:19Speaker 00

  You've also seen some of these creative solutions that some like jobs have come up with. You talked about this idea of a pre-batical, which I think is actually kind of clever one. What's that?

• 52:27Speaker 04

  Yeah. So this came from the Great Resignation. Everyone is like, I quit my job. It's amazing. And then a lot of people got really, you know, nice offers at other companies and other jobs. And so like, actually, I'm just going to start this other job. And I think it's kind of foolish to think that your burnout from a job is going to like end just because you joined another job.

• 52:46Speaker 00

  Yes, you take your box and by the time you get to the car, the burnout's over, right?

• 52:50Speaker 04

  You're running on adrenaline, right? So you're bringing like the adrenaline over. But I think companies actually benefit from ensuring that people take time off. And the easiest sabbatical to take is if like you have a job. So I teach at a business school, like you get a job at a consulting firm and you can push your offer. So you know that you have a job coming out of it and you don't have to worry about money. And so I think like allowing folks to make sure they come into your organization, not burned out, excited to hit the ground running is a great one.

• 53:19Speaker 00

  All right, so let's say somebody's listening right now and they're convinced it's time. They're ready to overcome all these barriers. The extended break is what they want to do. What are some practices for the sabbatical curious who are ready to go on actually taking a break?

• 53:32Speaker 04

  So I think the first thing is you got to ask around. So try to find an exemplar. I think setting the container for a sabbatical is super important. So I don't really want to give people guidance on their particular sabbatical, but you got to like set enough time. You have to ensure that you are disconnected enough. And partially that means traveling if you can. So getting out of your like geographic space. And partially that just means getting out of your routines. Because that's a vacuum at the beginning of your sabbatical, when you subtract all of your responsibilities, it can help to have some structured things, especially at the beginning of your sabbatical. Like you want to do something that gets you out of your head and into your body. Yoga teacher training, pottery, like stuff where you're using your hands, hiking.

• 54:13Speaker 00

  Building cabinets, we heard.

• 54:14Speaker 04

  Yeah, exactly. Do not suggest going to IKEA. It's not stressful. Getting out of your head and into your body and thinking about the phases of a sabbatical as healing at the beginning and then experimentation in the middle and then integration at the end. So really like finding these, what they call like counterfactual experiments. Like what would my life be like if I did this versus what I'm doing now? One of my favorite stories was a consultant who would take a sabbatical every four years. And he was like, when I retire, I want to run an eco lodge. And so he spent a sabbatical volunteering, like working in the kitchen, working in the back office of eco lodges. And was like, this is actually not for me, right? And so like running these experiments so that you don't have regrets later in life.

• 54:57Speaker 00

  You've also talked about the importance of using your sabbatical to focus on relationships. I know why this is so important from the Happiness Lab. The science just shows that social connection is so critical for happiness. But why can this be so important and transformative in a sabbatical specifically?

• 55:11Speaker 04

  A, I think you can go too far inwards. And so I think about sabbaticals as having like three archetypes. There's like the achievers that really want to get something done, kind of type A folks. B, the explorers, so people that just want to like see the world and explore outwards. And also like more seekers that want to find out, like I wanted to do that spiritual journey. So like, and then there's like folks that need kind of healing. And so, you know, one of the tough things is that you spend so much time thinking about yourself and what you want because like you're parched. You want to like go out and do all the things that you end up just focusing solely on yourself. For happiness, like focusing on relationships is important. It gets you out of your head and into more like, what do we actually care about? Like, what are we doing here? And then second, I think as you, as you get older, right?

• 55:54Speaker 04

  Like everyone has their own schedules and you're trying to like align stuff. And so this allows you to take the scheduling hassles of one side of that equation and take it away so you can actually plug into someone else's life in their convenience. So it can kind of like spur and catalyze and refresh these relationships that might have like run a little dry.

• 56:14Speaker 00

  That's so interesting. As some of the Happiness Lab fans know, I quite famously took this, my own sabbatical when I was feeling really burned out. And I think one of the unexpected benefits was this sort of relationship building, mostly because of that schedule issue that you just mentioned, right? I wanted to see a friend or catch up and they were like, when can you meet? I was like, anytime, like I got nothing, I got nothing going on, right? You know?

• 56:35Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 56:35Speaker 00

  And that was just transformative, right? Because it meant that those meetings and those relationships actually got built and that those connections actually happened.

• 56:42Speaker 04

  Yeah, there's all these things that we say are important, we know are important, but we don't make time for. I talked briefly about this urgent versus important kind of dynamic. So I'd urge you to think about like, what are important relationships that you haven't given a lot of love to? Like what are important things that you want to do in your life? And take stock, be like, how old am I? Like, how many years have I been working? How many times have I taken the chance to do some of those things? And I'm guessing the answer is like pretty, pretty rarely. And so figure out like, okay, like you have to make the time to do it. So relationships are one of those.

• 57:14Speaker 00

  And so any advice for how to pick what to do? Because I think especially if you're entering the sabbatical for that period of healing, if you're feeling really burned out and you're thinking like, now is my time to find my passion. That can kind of feel a little bit exhausting. But you've talked about we shouldn't be going for passion. We should focus on tiny curiosities. How does that work?

• 57:31Speaker 04

  Yeah, so full disclosure, I took this from Elizabeth Gilbert. Like she talked about like chasing your passions is stressful. What if you don't know what your passion is? What if your passion doesn't fulfill you? And instead just thinking about what, what you're curious about. And so if you're like, I've always wanted to be a master potter. And then you like spend your entire time trying to find someone to like apprentice with. That can be devastating when it turns out you're not good at pottery. As opposed to saying like, you know, what is it like to travel in this part? Or for me, like what would it be like to hang cabinets, even though I have no idea what I'm doing? And it was okay.

• 58:04Speaker 00

  It seems like it's kind of getting back to that play mindset. Like you don't, you don't have to do your sabbatical perfectly to kind of get some huge benefit out of it.

• 58:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, and I think actually this is going to sound trite, but the mistakes are part of the thing, right? So there was a person from our study who was like, I really want to learn backcountry skiing. And so they moved to British Columbia for a couple of months, like got these lessons, got certified, and then they eventually found themselves tracking, like how many vertical feet have I skied each day? And they had like a spreadsheet and then they realized like, oh, like I'm the problem here. Like the way, the way I attack things is the problem, not like the job. And so even if you sub out of that job, do you want to work on yourself? Or do you want to just take who you are and say like, okay, I want to actually attack some other problem I'm passionate about with the same energy and vigor?

• 58:52Speaker 00

  And so as folks are thinking about sabbatical right now, in the middle of 2025, when we're having this conversation, I think there's also an interesting question about not just how do we take sabbatical, but should we be taking sabbatical when the world feels like it's like literally on fire? You know, what's the advice for that?

• 59:08Speaker 04

  I think this goes back to the burnout and caretaker piece, right? So like put your oxygen mask on before, before your kids. Like you need perspective as to like what's actually going on, what's important for you? And to get the resources to kind of like take a different tack, right? And so I think it's an opportunity to step back. And I think it's a great opportunity in a time of like where you're feeling not so great to say like, who do I want to be in this next phase of my life? And what skills or like direction do I need to take in order to get there?

• 59:38Speaker 00

  Okay, and so I'm watching the clock tick down in like an extreme way, which means we've got to get to our parting thoughts. So parting thoughts on why we need this life and career investment and why we should take sabbaticals more seriously.

• 59:50Speaker 04

  I mean, back to the regret insurance, I would just really think about, what are some things that you would like to have as a part of your life story? And actually document those, like write them down in a journal. And then think about like, when are you going to actually be able to do them? I think often we live in this inertia, oh, well, this is the life. I'm looking two weeks ahead, right? But really trying to take a step back and say like, what are things that are important to me that, that I won't be able to do? A stat that I looked up that was kind of surprising was if you're like a 40-year-old male, which is what I am, I use male because our stats are worse. Your chances of making it to retirement age are five and six. So your chances of not making it are one in six. If you're a 50-year-old couple, you have a less than 50% chance

• 1:00:32Speaker 04

  of both partners reaching retirement age and being able mentally and physically to travel. Yeah, I'm great at dinner parties.

• 1:00:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:42Speaker 04

  And so like this, we're going to wait till retirement thing, this bucket list thing, is not guaranteed. And I hope that like the pandemic gave us this like touch of like life is precious. But like waiting until you can retire is just not guaranteed. Both what are the things you wish you could do? And then also, oh my gosh, like I might not be able to do them. Hopefully we'll like spur you all into action. 2031.

• 1:01:04Speaker 00

  2031. Who's putting in their Google Calendar today, right?

• 1:01:09Speaker 00

  Thank you for joining us for Happiness Lab Live at South by Southwest. Thank you so much.

• 1:01:16Speaker 00

  The Happiness Lab is proudly sponsored by Amica Insurance. When it comes to taking care of their customers, Amica goes the extra mile. From listening to your insurance needs to following up after a claim, Amica provides coverage with empathy. Because as a mutual insurer, Amica is built for its customers and prioritizes you. It's the way insurance should be. Amica, where your priority number one. Visit amica.com and get a quote today.

• 1:01:44Speaker 06

  Hey, it's Lunchbox from the Bobby Bones Show. Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability and it starts with a great deal on an all-wheel-drive Camry, Corolla Cross, or a Corolla sedan with the latest features in tech. Or test drive a spacious Grand Highlander or an adventure-ready RAV4. And with so many hybrid models available, you can enjoy longer trips without all the stops. While Toyota's legendary resale value means you could get more at trade-in. Get a deal today and great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for deals and details. Toyota, let's go places.

• 1:02:21Speaker 02

  For I don't know how long, maybe 12, 13 years, I've worn a Whoop band on my wrist. I started doing it because I met the founder of Whoop at a conference. He heard that I was a runner and he said, oh, you'll love this. It's perfect for athletes. And he was right. I've worn one ever since. Every time I work out, I see how hard I worked, how long I need to recover. I wake up in the morning and I get a complete picture of how my sleep went, which helps me understand the kinds of things that lead to a bad night and the kinds of things that lead to a good night. It's sleek, long-lasting battery, and now with AI looking at all my numbers and coaching me. Whoop is a winner. New members can try Whoop with a 30-day free trial before committing to a membership.

• 1:03:06Speaker 02

  That's whoop.com for your free month of Whoop.

• 1:03:10Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.