Pod Insights The Happiness Lab with Dr. Laurie Santos Reducing the Stress of Parenting with Dr Vivek Murthy About this episode Too many parents feel “exhausted, burned out, and perpetually behind” according to the former US Surgeon General Dr Vivek Murthy. He says more needs to be done to protect parental mental health.
Vivek talks to Dr Laurie about his experience as a dad and the loneliness, guilt and shame parents can feel as they struggle with the challenges of raising children.
This series on parenting coincides with Dr Laurie's new free online class, The Science of Wellbeing for Parents which is available now at Coursera.org https://www.coursera.org/. You can sign up at drlauriesantos.com/parents http://drlauriesantos.com/parents.
See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
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1:17 Laurie Santos? Pushkin.
1:24 Laurie Santos? What makes some people happier than others? What allows some people to radiate joy even in the face of adversity, while other people can't feel satisfied even in the best of circumstances? Well, like most human traits, happiness is a very complex combination of nature and nurture. At least some of the variance we see in people's well-being is due to their genes, but a lot of it is also due to environmental factors. And few environmental factors, especially early on, are as powerful as a person's parents. From the way a parent responds to a child's big emotions, to the values they model in daily life, caregivers can have a lasting impact on a child's happiness, shaping the way children handle stress, how they form attachments, and the mindsets they bring to tough problems. If you're a parent yourself, you're probably very aware.
2:10 Laurie Santos? of this fact and very worried about it. It's kind of terrifying to feel like every little choice you make has the potential to either empower your child or set them up for a lifetime of expensive therapy. That kind of pressure has always been there for parents. But these days, things feel even more fraught. In addition to the usual stresses, moms and dads today need to figure out how to navigate screen time, how to help their kids stay safe online, how to protect their families from the loneliness and mental health crises currently plaguing so many people, and how to help the next generation face a future that feels more precarious than ever. It's gotten so bad that government officials have begun taking action. Last summer, the former U.S. Surgeon General Vivek Murthy
2:52 Laurie Santos? published a public health advisory entitled "Parents Under Pressure." That advisory called attention to the fact that parental mental health is on the decline. So much so, the Surgeon General argued, that caregiver stress has become an urgent public health issue, a problem just as impactful as the opioid crisis or gun violence. The report advised that something needs to be done right away to support parent well-being, to help prevent caregivers from feeling, as the advisory put it, "exhausted, burned out, and perpetually behind." Here at the Happiness Lab, we wanted to answer this important call to action. And so we've put together an entire season on ways that parents can protect their mental health while doing the important work of raising another human while being human. Over the next few episodes,
3:36 Laurie Santos? I'll be speaking with some of the world's top scientists and parenting experts about strategies modern caregivers can use to protect their own mental health while taking care of the next generation. We'll be exploring questions like, how can parents help their kids to become happy, healthy, and productive adults without losing sight of their own well-being along the way? How can adults and kids use screens and social media in healthier ways? And how can we all model more effective ways of handling tough emotions? If you're a parent, this series will give you actionable tips for navigating the stress of being a caregiver. And if you're not a parent or caregiver, not to worry, because you'll still find lots of happiness strategies that everyone can use in this series. Like how to manage your time better to feel less overwhelmed, how to achieve a healthier work-life balance. What counts as true self-care?
4:21 Laurie Santos? And how to work through your big feelings without hurting the people around you? And since I really wanted to go big on my goal of fixing this parent mental health crisis, this new season of the Happiness Lab will also coincide with the release of a new version of my free online Yale Happiness course. It's called The Science of Well-Being for Parents. Think an entire class filled with actionable strategies that parents can use to feel less stressed, reduce their burnout, and protect their mental health. And it's completely free of charge. You can sign up now on my website, drlorisantos.com/parents. That's drlorisantos.com/parents. So yeah, we are going big on helping families this season. And that's why I was so excited to bring in a very special guest for our first episode,
5:06 Laurie Santos? the guy who first sounded the alarm on the crisis facing our nation's parents.
5:10 Speaker 03 So hi, everyone. I'm Vivek Murthy. I'm a dad of two young kids from Miami, Florida originally. And I served as the 19th and 21st Surgeon General of the United States.
5:21 Laurie Santos? I began by asking Dr. Murthy what led to his decision to flag parent mental health as part of one of his official Surgeon General advisories.
5:29 Speaker 03 These are not commonly issued. They're typically reserved for when there are critical health issues that people need to be aware of, and they lay out a series of actions that we can take to address that issue. So they're meant to highlight a problem and offer a solution. And during my tenure, I've actually issued a number of these advisories. During my work on the youth mental health crisis, I came to see that we can't address youth mental health if we're not also addressing what's happening to the mental health of parents.
5:55 Laurie Santos? And so you mentioned this a little bit in your last answer, but I was just curious how you got interested in parent stress. When did you start seeing this as a big issue? And how much of it was the Surgeon General? And how much of it was you reflecting on your own parenting and friend parents and so on?
6:08 Speaker 03 Before I was a parent, I really did not understand very much about what parents were going through. I experienced what a lot of people probably do during their lives, which is once their friends get married and have kids, it almost feels like sometimes you're in a different world, right? And I myself didn't make as much of an effort perhaps as I should have to like, understand that world. And so our lives sort of grew apart a bit. It was when I became a parent that I started to realize, wow, this is hard. And I knew it was going to be hard, but I didn't know like the ways in which it was going to be hard, like how profoundly lonely and challenging it could be to parent. I didn't know that I'd be up till three AM most nights trying to Google what kind of like diapers are good for my kids or what kind of wipes are going to be safe for them. You know, all of these things which occupy our lives as parents, I just didn't know the extent
6:53 Speaker 03 to which that would take a toll on well being. But it was actually when I became surgeon general and started working on the youth mental health crisis. That's actually where what was happening to parents became even more clear to me. Cause as I was going to communities to talk to people about what was happening to their adolescents and to their young adults in their lives, I started hearing these stories of real stress and hardship that parents were undergoing, start to realize these parents are, they're not getting sleep, dealing with more and more stressors, the old ones, you know, that parents have always had to deal with, like worrying about your kid's safety, but also new ones, like how do I manage social media in my child's life? How do I deal with the epidemic of gun violence that has become so prevalent in our country?
7:35 Speaker 03 And how do I prepare my kids for a future which seems to be changing every hour? And I also realized as I dug into the science behind it, Lori, that mental health of parents really does in measurable ways affect the mental health of their kids. And I say this not to make parents feel worried that, oh my gosh, that their struggles are going to hurt their kids, but more so to say that not surprisingly, parents and kids, they have a symbiotic relationship with each other. They have interdependencies and when we help one, we help the other. And so I came to see as I dug into the data, which was really surprising to me on what's happening to the mental health of parents, you quickly come to the conclusion that we've got to invest in caring for parents, not only because they matter, but because they are a part of the solution to ultimately addressing the youth mental health crisis.
8:19 Laurie Santos? And so give me a sense of some of the statistics, like when you actually survey parents, what are the kinds of things you see in terms of the stresses they're going through and the sort of magnitude of those stresses?
8:28 Speaker 03 So there are a couple of things that really popped out to me. The first was that forty eight percent of parents, nearly half, say that on most days, their stress is absolutely overwhelming.
8:38 Laurie Santos? Wow.
8:39 Speaker 03 Like, that is not normal. We shouldn't think of it as normal. And when you compare it to the general population, it's about a quarter of the general population, about twenty six percent that says that, of adults who are not parents. The other thing that really struck me was that parents struggle with loneliness at a higher rate than adults who aren't parents. Now, this is counterintuitive, right? Most people, and I thought this before I was a parent, would think that, wow, when you're a parent, you've got a family around you, you're probably less lonely than somebody who doesn't. But it turns out that it can be quite a lonely experience, you know, especially if you find yourself raising kids without family or close friends around, and you find yourself struggling in the middle of the night to figure out how to console a child who's really upset, you know, if you have a young child, or if you've got an older child worrying about where
9:23 Speaker 03 they are in the middle of the night and there's something going wrong with them, how do you manage that? There are a lot of struggles that parents contend with on their own. And I think part of what has made it even more challenging, Laurie, for parents is, we talk a lot about, and you and I have talked about, the comparison culture that has been dramatically accelerated by social media in particular, and how that's impacting our kids. It turns out that's impacting adults too, right? And they too are subject to the comparison culture and are looking at what other parents are posting online. And it seems like every parent kind of has things figured out, that somehow they figured out how to manage social media, how to keep their kids safe, how to make sure their kid's eating and sleeping, how to make sure their kid's learning three languages, four sports, and doing six other extracurriculars, including five instruments, you know, whatever it is,
10:07 Speaker 03 like, it seems like everyone has got to pull together. But in reality, it's profoundly different. A lot of parents are struggling, but it doesn't seem like that. So the experience of being online can often make you feel that you're falling short and make you feel that somehow you're alone in your struggles. So these are some of the things that I was noticing in terms of the statistics, and they were really borne out, Laurie, by the stories that I was hearing from parents on the road. And after our advisory came out, and after the op-ed that I wrote to summarize the advisory that came out of the New York Times, I've just been overwhelmed with feedback from parents all across the spectrum, wherever I travel, who say, wow, I felt so seen. The truth is, I've really been struggling.
10:47 Laurie Santos? So you brought up some of the parent reactions when you, you know, released this report. I'm kind of curious, like, other people's reactions. I mean, I saw some news articles that were almost a little bit flippant about this of like, oh, parenting is a public health crisis now. It's like, you know, it's just as bad as smoking and obesity.
11:02 Speaker 03 Yeah, well, I think that what's happening with parents' mental health now really is a real challenge that has significant and concerning public health ripples that affect parents, affect kids, that affect parents in the workplace and their role in society. And just keep in mind, like, parents aren't a small group, right, in society. We're talking about millions and millions and millions of adults in America who are quietly struggling behind the scenes, trying to make it all work, but having a really hard time. Is some of the reactions that we got, overwhelmingly, it was a very positive reaction from not just parents who felt more seen and heard, but from doctors and nurses who have been seeing these struggles in their clinics and saying, wow, yes, something really needs to be done about this. There was a small minority, though, of people who we heard from who said, why is this my problem?
11:47 Speaker 03 Like, I didn't choose to have kids. If you chose to have kids, then you should deal with the stresses and consequences of that. And while I understand where some of those folks may be coming from, one of the points we wanted to make in this advisory is that the health and wellbeing of parents actually matters to all of us because parents are actually doing an extraordinarily important and invaluable job for society, which is they're raising the next generation. And this is one of the reasons why we invest in public schools, for example, because we know raising the next generation well matters. We all pay into making sure that schools can educate our kids. Similarly, parents are a critical piece of that. And so their wellbeing actually really does matter to all of us. And that was one of the points that we wanted to make in this. Like, whether you're a business leader who's trying to figure out,
12:32 Speaker 03 how do I recruit talented, healthy, mentally strong young people to come into the workplace? Or whether you're somebody who wants to make sure that the neighborhood is full of young people who are responsible and thoughtful and healthy and well. Regardless of whether you have kids or not, you have a vested interest in parents' mental health and wellbeing.
12:48 Laurie Santos? It's a big burden to shape the next generation of our planet's neighbors, leaders, and colleagues. And it's pretty frightening to think that the people doing that right now are in a mental health crisis themselves. But Dr. Murthy thinks there's reason for hope. He'll share the concrete steps he thinks we need to take to fix things when the Happiness Lab returns from the break.
13:10 Laurie Santos? There's nothing quite like having pieces in your closet you love and know you can count on for any occasion, except maybe giving someone else that same feeling. And I have to tell you, when it comes to my go-to gift this season, I think this might be the year of the hoodie. Specifically, Quince's Mongolian Cashmere Full Zip Hoodie, which I bought for myself and absolutely love. You know when you get something that's so comfortable, so soft, and so easy to throw on that you suddenly want to wear every day? That's where I am with this hoodie. And I started to think that instead of agonizing over what to get everyone on my holiday list, I might just buy them all one of these. I mean, who on my list wouldn't love a gift of perfect coziness? But it's not just hoodies. Quince makes elevated everyday essentials using premium materials like Mongolian
13:53 Laurie Santos? cashmere and organic cotton. And if a cashmere hoodie isn't quite right for someone on your list, Quince has so much more, from leather bags and jewelry to cozy scarves, down outerwear, and even hotel-quality bedding. Give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns, now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks you where you heard about them, let them know it was the Happiness Lab. It's the best way to support the show.
14:26 Speaker 01 This is Jacob Goldstein. With ChatGPT, you can do more than get answers, you can get things done. When you're running a business and looking to expand, you need a clear view of the landscape before making any decisions. ChatGPT can help you prepare. Connect your Google Drive, point to relevant files and reports, and ask it to research competitors, industry forecasts, and market signals. It can turn the findings into a strategic deck in your team's template that you can review before presenting to your leadership team. Growing a business is ambitious, and ChatGPT can help you do it with confidence. Get started today at chatgpt.com.
15:04 Laurie Santos? Flu season is here, and with everything we have going on, it's easy to put getting a flu shot on the back burner. But taking a few minutes now can help protect you and your family. That's why I'm headed to CVS Pharmacy to get my flu shot. And honestly, I was really impressed by how easy it was to schedule. With CVS, you can schedule appointments for up to four family members at once, so you can take care of everyone in one go. Just visit CVS.com/flu or use the CVS Health app to find an appointment that works for you. So make protecting yourself this flu season one less thing to worry about. Did you know that flu shots are free with most insurance plans? Visit your local CVS Pharmacy for your flu shot and get a $5 off $20 coupon with any vaccine.
15:49 Laurie Santos? Schedule today at CVS.com/flu. Flu shots are no cost with most insurance. Eligibility varies by patient and insurance plan. Coupon offer not available in select states and is subject to availability. Restrictions apply. Visit CVS.com/flu for details.
16:12 Laurie Santos? In his advisory "Parents Under Pressure", former Surgeon General Dr. Vivek Murthy writes that nearly half of our nation's mothers and fathers are so stressed out that they have difficulty functioning. That's really bad. But Dr. Murthy also argues that it's possible to turn things around. I asked him to break down what we need to do to help families not only cope, but thrive. His first suggestion is that we need to recognize that caregivers need care too.
16:37 Speaker 03 It's important because if the people who are doing the caring aren't also cared for, they burn out. And we have seen that not just with parents. We've seen that with doctors and nurses in hospitals and clinics across the country, made worse by COVID, but this is a problem even before COVID. We see that with people who are caring for elderly relatives at home who are ill or for children who are chronically ill. When you've got a sick loved one and you're caring for them all the time, that can be very stressful. If we don't end up caring for the people who are in fact doing the caring for others, what happens is not only that they burn out, but the people they're caring for ultimately suffer too. Just to use a healthcare. Example for a moment, when I issued in two thousand twenty two, a surgeon general's advisory on health worker burnout.
17:20 Speaker 03 One of the things I noted was that nearly half of nurses and a quarter of doctors were saying that they were so burned out, they were thinking of leaving the clinical profession. And just imagine for a moment if a quarter of doctors and half of nurses leave, what happens to emergency care, primary care? Our ability to take care of people when they have health issues are craters, right? And so this is why these issues really affect all of us, and it's why I think we should look at parenting again as a sacred responsibility that parents have taken on and one that we all have to ultimately pull together to support them in.
17:51 Laurie Santos? I think this is such an important spot to start because I think an awareness that parenting is hard is sometimes hard for parents to admit. You know, as I thought about kind of the types of topics to share with parents as part of this podcast. One of the things that kept coming up over and over again was this idea that parents feel guilty, like they feel guilty for feeling like they're lonely or that they're struggling or that they don't like parenting sometimes they have a hard time admitting it. And it seems like just this awareness is really contributing to the guilt factor, right? You don't have to feel bad. You can have some compassion for yourselves for the fact that like this is a hard important job and it's okay if you feel like you're struggling.
18:25 Speaker 03 Oh my, I'm so glad you mentioned that, Lori, because the amount of shame and guilt that I hear from parents all over the country is really profound. And it really saddens me because I look at these parents who are just sacrificing everything in some cases to just make sure they're there for their kids and dealing with all of the challenges their kids may be facing and feel like even just raising the fact that they're burning out or struggling means that they failed as parents. And what has really happened are really two critical things that we have to keep in mind. One is that parenting actually has become harder in a lot of ways. It's not that every generation doesn't have its own challenges. They do. But what parents say routinely on surveys is that tech and social media in particular are the top two reasons why they feel parenting is so much harder now than it was a generation ago.
19:10 Speaker 03 My parents, when I was growing up, didn't have to deal with how to manage technology in my life in terms of not just social media, but also cell phones, right? They didn't have to worry about me having portable cable service and internet in my pocket at all times. Staying up late at night and worrying about what I was getting into them, I put my safety at risk. So the nature of parenting has really changed. But the other thing that has changed over time, Laurie, is that parenting went from what it has been for millennia, which is a team sport, to an individual endeavor, right? And that is just not how we have evolved and been built, you know, as a species over time. And for generations, when people were living in extended families or in communities that they had known for a long time, when they had a child, people would come to help, not just relatives, but neighbors and friends.
19:55 Speaker 03 If you had to run out somewhere, you could ask a neighbor to just watch your kids or drop your kids off at the neighbor's house, or all the kids would just play together, you know, at somebody's house for an afternoon, and then parents could go and do their thing. What you find when you look at the data, which is really interesting, is compared to just a couple of decades ago, parents are spending, and these are moms and dads, are spending more time at work. That may not surprise you, but what is surprising is that moms and dads are also spending more time in childcare. Right? So if moms and dads are spending more time working and more time caring for their children, the question is, what are they not doing? Time that they have to sleep, to recuperate, to socialize with others, to take time just to care for themselves. That time has become much more squeezed.
20:39 Speaker 03 And so when you look at this all together, you realize that parents are really having to contend with even more than maybe a generation or two ago in terms of challenges, challenges they never grew up with. And they're having to do it with less time and with less support. And that really is a recipe for struggle and burnout.
20:57 Laurie Santos? And so let's talk about some strategies that parents as individuals can take to kind of make things better. One of the things you talk about a lot is sort of fighting this idea that parenting has gone from a team sport to an individual sport, that parents need to connect with other parents. What can parents do to do that? What are some more specific strategies they can use to reach out and connect?
21:16 Speaker 03 Yeah, so I think the first thing is just to recognize that if you're struggling as a parent, you are not alone and to not necessarily believe what you see online or on social media. That's not representative of reality. The second is to start conversations with other parents about what they may be struggling with or you may be struggling with. I have two small kids, they're six and eight, they're in first and third grade, and we have discussion threads and texts with the parents in each class. These are invaluable, right? When people talk about all kinds of things, what are you wearing for Spirit Day? What are people doing for the holiday? If someone's late picking up their child, they'll say, hey, can anybody just, you know, look out for my kid? Like, these are wonderful things to use a joint thread for. But what we need to start talking about more are other struggles like, hey, is anybody having a hard time like managing the iPad for your child?
22:00 Speaker 03 And we know that that is true for many parents. How are people thinking about phones? Is anyone's kid asking for a phone? And how are you managing that? These are some of the conversations we need to start initiating and having. When we do, it's like opening the floodgates. We start to realize, wow, everyone is really struggling with it. They just didn't feel comfortable like sharing that or thought they were the only ones. The third thing I would recommend for parents is to do small things in your own life, to actually try to help and support other parents. Now, this is going to be counterintuitive because you might think, hey, hold on, I'm the one who needs help here. You know, I'm struggling. Like, what are you asking me to help somebody else for? But here's actually why this is so magical. Because when you do even a small thing to help another parent, it could be, for example, telling them, hey, you know, I'll just watch your kid on the playground for the next 10, 15 minutes if you need to go make a call.
22:45 Speaker 03 If you just want to go sit down somewhere and just take some deep breaths. These small things help other parents feel like they're seen, help them feel like they're not alone. And they also can be incredibly empowering for you as a person doing the helping. It helps forge a bond between you and other parents as well that help you feel like you're not alone. My wife, Alice, is a master at this. I'll give you an example, something she just did recently. She sent a message out to the text thread and said, hey, I know that the holidays are coming up and people are probably shopping for gifts. Are there any parents out there who have businesses that you'd want us to know about? So maybe we can shop and support your businesses, you know, like as we're looking for gifts. And all these people responded like, well, what a great idea. Yeah, yeah, this is a great way that parents can support. Support other parents and it just helped it feel like more of a community.
23:29 Speaker 03 But we also for a long time like hesitated to have people over to our house because with two kids like our house is constantly in chaos. It's like it's it's a mess. It's never like as tidy or neat as it should be. And it's also small and we thought, gosh, well, we're not really set up to really entertain that well. And then at some point, Alison and I just sat down. We're like, if we're feeling this way, other parents are probably feeling this way. So why don't we just have people over and just tell them it's chaotic, it's messy. We're not sure what, you know, we have in terms of who, but we'll pull something together and just come over. We'll just hang out. Our kids will play together. And I'll tell you, once we started doing that, not only was it tremendous fun, but we realized something really important, which is that fundamentally, people, when they come over, what makes the biggest difference in their experience is the other people there. It's not like how fancy your house is, was everything neat and tidy?
24:14 Speaker 03 And in fact, a lot of parents said, oh, well, thank you for having us over. Our house is always in chaos, but you kind of make us feel like it's okay to have people over too. So maybe we'll start doing that. So these are some small things as parents that we could start to do in our day to day lives. But most of all, I just want parents to know that again, if you're struggling out there, do not feel like this is a reflection of your failure as a parent or somehow you have something to be ashamed of. You are part of a larger generation of parents who are collectively struggling with a whole bunch of new challenges that prior generations didn't have to deal with. And the more we can talk more openly about what we're dealing with, the more we can find support and ultimately get through parenting, do well by our children and do well by ourselves.
24:54 Laurie Santos? So mothers and fathers can work to create their own proverbial village to combat the loneliness and stress of modern parenting. But Dr. Murthy doesn't think that caregivers should be responsible for taking care of themselves by themselves. After the break, we'll talk about the big structural changes that are needed to protect parent mental health. The Happiness Lab will be right back.
25:17 Speaker 01 This is Jacob Goldstein. With ChatGPT, you can do more than get answers. You can get things done. When you're running a business and looking to expand, you need a clear view of the landscape before making any decisions. ChatGPT can help you prepare. Connect your Google Drive, point to relevant files and reports, and ask it to research competitors, industry forecasts, and market signals. It can turn the findings into a strategic deck in your team's template that you can review before presenting to your leadership team. Growing a business is ambitious and ChatGPT can help you do it with confidence. Get started today at chatgpt.com.
25:55 Laurie Santos? Flu season is here, and with everything we have going on, it's easy to put getting a flu shot on the back burner. But taking a few minutes now can help protect you and your family. That's why I'm headed to CVS Pharmacy to get my flu shot. And honestly, I was really impressed by how easy it was to schedule. With CVS, you can schedule appointments for up to four family members at once, so you can take care of everyone in one go. Just visit CVS.com/flu or use the CVS Health app to find an appointment that works for you. So make protecting yourself this flu season one less thing to worry about. Did you know that flu shots are free with most insurance plans? Visit your local CVS Pharmacy for your flu shot and get a $5 off $20 coupon with any vaccine.
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28:05 Laurie Santos? When it comes to improving parental happiness, there's only so much that moms and dads can do on their own. Former Surgeon General Dr. Vivek Murthy thinks that modern society isn't set up all that well for parents to reduce their own stress.
28:17 Speaker 03 It's absolutely the case that making parenting more sustainable has to be a societal priority and requires societal action. And so if we want to talk about workplaces to start with, having policies and programs that support caregivers in the workplace is vital. And that can look like flexibility and hours so that if a parent needs to be there for a school event, they can do that without feeling guilty that they are somehow harming the workplace. The other thing that workplaces can do is ensure that parents have sick leave. One of the most painful decisions parents have to make sometimes is what to do when their child is sick with regard to work. In those moments, if you can help a parent feel like, you know what, your child is sick. It's OK if you are with them. It's OK if you work from home. The other things that workplaces can do
29:02 Speaker 03 is actually to ensure that when you're picking an insurance plan for your employees, that you're finding one that actually has strong mental health care coverage as well. Because keep in mind, we are living in the midst of a youth mental health crisis when many parents have children who are struggling with anxiety or depression or maybe even attempted to take their own life. This has tragically become all too common. And being able to have at least strong mental health care coverage, that's really vital. And finally, I would just keep in mind, and this is something that doesn't necessarily cost any money, but being able to bring parents together in a workplace, to even talk about their experiences, not just with other parents, but with other colleagues in the workplace, talk about your family life. You know, like tell people about your kids, help them understand some of the things you contend with. That can be immensely helpful.
29:46 Speaker 03 A lot of parents go to work and feel like they have to completely check their parent identity at the door and feel like if they talk about any of the challenges they have as parents, that'll be somehow seen as they're weak or unreliable or not somebody who should be promoted or depended on in some way. And the reality is that everybody, whether you're a parent or not, has challenges outside of work, right? And the more we can just be a little bit more human and open about sharing those non-work dimensions of our life. It doesn't mean we have to divulge our deepest and darkest secrets to everyone at work. But what it does mean is that when we can come into work, knowing that, yeah, people know that we have children, or they know we have small kids, or they know that, hey, maybe this month is going to be a little challenging because my child has a lot going on that I need to be there for.
30:28 Speaker 03 That can actually really help a lot to reduce the stress and anticipatory anxiety that many parents feel.
30:34 Laurie Santos? I think this is so critical because people just spend so much time at work, right? A third of your time is at work. And you know, study after study shows that for a lot of people, the social connection in the community to develop at work is their main social connection and community. And so if parents aren't connecting through other parents at work, that leaves a big hole. And so I love the idea of using the workplace to find kind of connections among parents. And sort of maybe as a manager, even supporting building that over time to protect parental health.
31:00 Speaker 03 And I'll tell you one thing, Laurie, when I first began my tenure as Surgeon General, I remember I was looking to hire in new staff. And one of the staff members I was looking to hire, I could tell there's something she wanted to talk to me about, but like she wasn't quite bringing it up. Finally, I said, well, what is it? It feels like something's on your mind. And she said, well, thinking about maybe having a child, you know, in the next few years. And I just need to kind of know, like, is that going to be okay here? And the way she said it kind of broke my heart, right? You could tell that she was worried that if she had a child, that somehow she would be looked at as a less desirable candidate or somebody who wasn't contributing as enough to the office. I obviously told her, I was like, we want this to be a place where everyone feels welcome. And you have a child whenever you want. It's our goal and our priority and our responsibility is a workplace to support that.
31:43 Speaker 03 But the fact that she felt that way, you know, initially, you know, before we had a conversation about it, I started to see that pattern again and again, that many people worry. And so I think as workplaces, if we can be proactive about signaling to people that we don't look at parenthood as somehow a handicap in any way, or something that is going to make you less desirable in the workplace. I think that's really important. What I have found in my experience now over two terms as Surgeon General, having many people in the office who have come in as parents or who have become parents. I don't find that like parents are somehow a drag in any way in the office. If anything, I find they add invaluable perspective. They work incredibly hard. I mean, anyone who's a parent knows that it forces you to have to figure out how to manage time in pretty efficient and effective ways. So the parents in our office bring so much.
32:27 Speaker 03 But I do think that there is this fear that many of them have coming in, that somehow that's going to be a strike against them. And as employers, it's our job to ensure that they know from the outset that we're creating an environment that's hospitable to everyone, including parents.
32:41 Laurie Santos? And so that's what workplaces can do to sort of protect parent health. What are things governments can do to reduce parent stress?
32:48 Speaker 03 Well, governments can recognize, I think, a couple of things. One is that the financial challenges for parents are quite significant. And that's why strategies like having a child tax credit, which has been one of the most powerful strategies in recent years in lifting kids and families out of poverty. Making sure that we establish a sort of more long-term child tax credit is really vital. I think also making sure that people have paid sick leave so they can be with sick kids. This is a policy governments can consider as well. And we know that childcare is just extraordinarily expensive for many parents across the country. And this is a place where I think policymakers can also make a difference. It's just important also for governments to recognize what is driving some of the stresses in addition to finances.
33:33 Speaker 03 We talked earlier in this conversation about tech and social media as being really important contributors to the stress many parents are contending with. Governments actually have a role in making social media safer. And this is something I called for in a cert. edil's advisory I issued in 2023 on social media and youth mental health. I laid out a series of steps that government can take to put in place safety standards to ensure that kids are protected from harmful content, that addictive features, to ensure that we have transparent access as parents and as scientific community to the data that companies have, social media companies, and the impact of their platforms on our kids. And finally, we've spent a lot of time over the last couple of years when I was in office, talking about the loneliness crisis in America
34:16 Speaker 03 and the profound impact that has on physical and mental health. And that is affecting kids, but it's also affecting parents. And so government can make important investments in what we think of as social infrastructure. These are the policies and programs and physical structures that actually enable and allow people to come together, that support existing programs in our communities that help people build relationships. And we might have taken that for granted over the years because those always existed. But in the last few decades in particular, we've seen a real decline in that social infrastructure, where fewer people are participating in recreational clubs, service organizations, faith organizations. And so we are fewer places to actually come together in person.
34:56 Laurie Santos? We had my Connecticut Senator Chris Murphy on, who talked a lot about the kinds of things that governments can do to build these so-called third places. Thinking particularly about parents and supporting their communities. Do you have any specific ideas about how governments could intervene, specifically maybe local governments, and what they could do to build these support systems?
35:14 Speaker 03 Yeah, look, I think in addition to the broader policy actions we talked about, I do think that when local communities have places and spaces where parents can gather at hours that are actually manageable, compatible with a parent's schedule, that makes a huge, huge difference. Like, I'll just give you some examples. Like, sometimes when there are music concerts that are taking place, but they're late in the evening or at night, that makes it challenging for parents to be able to go. Doesn't mean you shouldn't have nighttime concerts, but keep in mind that from time to time, you also have some concerts that are, like, in the late afternoon on weekends. These make it feasible for parents to actually take their kids and families and come together. I also want to just underscore something that parents know, which is that parks actually are really helpful for parents. They're a place where you can take your kids,
35:59 Speaker 03 where they can play, entertain themselves, get physical activity. It is invaluable to have parks. But there are many communities where there aren't parks around, or they've been taken over by housing developments, or they've sort of fallen into ruin and they're not safe or habitable anymore. These kind of green spaces and places where parents can come together and play is really invaluable. And so, as local communities and governments think about the festivals, events, places that they build and develop, keep parents in mind. Keep in mind that they are often desperate for places to gather, but that they need to be able to do it, you know, during daytime hours, because that's when their kids are up. And when parents can come together with other parents at these kind of places, it can really help forge really powerful bonds. I'll maybe give you one last idea,
36:44 Speaker 03 which is actually building on something that we just released during my last few months as Surgeon General, but it was a product called Recipes for Connection. It's actually not recipes for food dishes. It's recipes for how to have gatherings around food. And the reason that we did this is because a lot of people were telling us that they were struggling with loneliness. They wanted to gather people, but they weren't sure how. And they worried if they did so, that maybe... People wouldn't come over, maybe they didn't know how to cook, they wouldn't have anything to offer people. They had all of these worries and anxieties around gathering. So we put together recipes for connection to help people find ways to gather. There are all kinds of fun ideas in there. For example, you can have a childhood favorites potluck, right? Where everyone can just bring a dish that they loved when they were a kid.
37:26 Speaker 03 I just did this actually recently and we not only got to eat the food that our moms made and dads made when we were kids, but we got to tell the story of our parents and we got to learn about each other in the process. These are the kind of events that you can imagine, not just local government, but local organizations, helping to sponsor in a neighborhood or helping to organize. But when we come together around food, around physical activity, around entertainment like music, and in spaces like green spaces that are hospitable for it, we can really help foster community and support for parents and that can make a big, big difference in their lives.
38:01 Laurie Santos? And so I imagine this syndrome general where you put out reports like this, it really is, you know, hoping that we're really going to see these changes. Now sometime after you've put out the report, are you still feeling hopeful that we can make these changes and reduce parent stress?
38:13 Speaker 03 Actually, I'm feeling a lot more hopeful than even when I put out the advisory because of the response we've seen to it. But the bottom line is if we can see parenting as a societal priority, if we can monitor the wellbeing of parents, the way we do the wellbeing of kids with just as much importance. My hope is that we can make a lot of progress because the truth is when I was putting together this advisory on parents, I'll tell you, I was shocked by how little high quality data there is out there on the mental health and wellbeing of parents. It's almost like we somehow decided it didn't matter that much and didn't study them. But the data that is there, it paints a concerning picture, but one that we can actually address and ultimately get to solutions.
38:59 Laurie Santos? If you're a parent listening right now, I know that things may seem impossibly challenging at times, but keep in mind that you're not alone. There are lots of caregivers struggling with many of the same challenges you are. And the good news is that there are actionable strategies you can use to feel better. To summarize some of the quick tips we've heard from Dr. Murthy, remember that what you're doing day in and day out is important and difficult. Take time to give yourself some self-compassion. Commit to recognizing that social media is not real. And find ways to connect with other parents in as many small ways as you can. If you're an employer, remember that you need to protect parents in your workplace. Especially now, it's crucial that management offers flexibility, comprehensive health insurance, and sick leave. And if you're a community leader,
39:43 Laurie Santos? don't forget that accessible and inclusive public spaces are invaluable to families. That toddler eating sand like it's a Michelin star delicacy, one day he might be the person who solves climate change or cures cancer. Let's make sure his parents have the support they need today, so they can raise the kind of person who will shape a better tomorrow. Big thanks to Dr. Vivek Murthy for sharing his insights on how we can help parents protect their mental health. And this initial conversation is just the start of all the advice I'll be sharing on happier parenting. As I mentioned at the start of the show, I've just launched my new free online class, The Science of Wellbeing for Parents, which is available now on Coursera.org. You can also sign up on my website, drlauriesantos.com/parents.
40:28 Laurie Santos? That's drlauriesantos.com/parents. In next week's episode of the Happiness Lab, we'll tackle some ways that well-meaning, deeply-loving parents can inadvertently mess their kids up if they're not careful. And we'll learn how to do better, not just as a parent yourself, but also when you parent yourself. We'll explore the topic of healthier reparenting with two of my favorite champions of doing hard things to feel happier.
40:52 Speaker 04 We are a lesbian couple. We don't need to just understand each other. We need to overstand each other. So Laurie, this is something that we spin around constantly because we do have a moment where we kind of wake up and we go, wait, is this who I really am?
41:06 Laurie Santos? We'll hear from Glennon Doyle and Abby Wambach of the hit podcast, We Can Do Hard Things, next time. Until then, don't forget to head to drlauriesantos.com/parents for more happier parenting advice. And be sure to return for our next episode of the Happiness Lab with me, Dr. Laurie Santos.
41:29 Laurie Santos? The Happiness Lab is proudly sponsored by Amica Insurance. You know what they say, "If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together." So go with Amica and get coverage from a mutual insurer that's built for their customers, one that looks after what's important to you together—auto, home, life, and more. Amica helps you protect what matters most. Visit amica.com and get a quote today. A business gift should do more than check a box. It should reflect your brand and show someone they're appreciated, recognized, and truly seen. That's why teams trust For Imprint. With thousands of high-quality, customizable products like premium apparel,
42:11 Laurie Santos? drinkware, tech, and more, it's easy to create a gift that feels meaningful and on-brand. And with For Imprint's expert support and their 360-degree guarantee, you can be For Imprint certain your order will arrive exactly as intended. Explore gifting with confidence at forimprint.com. For Imprint, for certain. Here's something the happiness research shows time and again: small moments matter more when we take time to savor them. And I think the best gifts are ones that make it easier to be present so that we can savor those small moments. Think the kinds of pieces you notice every time you use them. That's why I've been recommending the Woodstock Red Wine Glass from Simon Pierce. Hand-blown, one at a time, with the kind of character
42:54 Laurie Santos? you only get from a human hand. Something made with that much intention has a way of getting you to notice it, which makes being present and savoring things even easier. Find yours or theirs at simonpearce.com. That's S-I-M-O-N-P-E-A-R-C-E dot com. Simon Pierce, made by hand, one at a time.
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