Caller: Is Being a Nudist Bad?

❤️ The Marriage Kit is here. Limited kits available to help you reconnect! On today’s episode, we hear about: A man contemplating whether being a nudist is a sin or not A wife wondering how to help her unmotivated husband A couple deciding how to help a friend out of a dangerous situation Next Steps: 💬 Get the free Conflict Game Plan by Dr. John Delony. 📋 Get on the same page before the week begins. Download Dr. John Delony’s free weekly marriage check-in. 🔥 Microhabits for a better marriage. Download the Together app. 📞 Ask John a question! Call 844-693-3291 or send us a message. 📚 Building a Non-Anxious Life 📝 Anxiety Test 📚 Own Your Past, Change Your Future ❓ Questions for Humans Conversation Cards 💭 John’s Free Guided Meditation 🤘🏼 The Dr. John Delony Show Merch Episode Chapters: 00:00 Intro 00:58 I Enjoy Being Naked in Public 21:35 How Do I Encourage My Lazy Husband? 43:05 Is My Friend’s Drunk Husband Dangerous? Connect With Our Sponsors: Get 10% off your first month of BetterHelp. Go to Capstone Wellness to learn more. Get started today with Churchill Mortgage. Equal Housing Lender. NMLS ID 1591. nmlsconsumeraccess.org. Get up to 20% off with code DELONY at Cozy Earth. Get 20% off when you join DeleteMe. Visit Hallow for a 90-day free trial. Visit Helix Sleep for special offers! Explore Poncho Outdoors! Get 25% off your order at Thorne. Visit Zander Insurance or call 1-800-356-4282 for your free instant quote today. Explore More From Ramsey Network: 🎙️ The Ramsey Show 💸 The Ramsey Show Highlights 🍸 Smart Money Happy Hour 💰 George Kamel 📈 EntreLeadership Ramsey Solutions Privacy Policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:05Dr. John Delony?

  All right, the marriage kit is here. This is me sitting with you and your spouse, walking with you for a year in your marriage. There are only a limited number of these available. They will sell out. Get yours now at JohnDelone.com.

• 0:20Speaker 01

  So my question today is whether or not nudity or nakedness is evil or wrong or sinful. So I'm really comfortable not wearing clothing in inappropriate settings. Like we play pickleball, volleyball.

• 0:31Dr. John Delony?

  You play nude pickleball?

• 0:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's pretty fun, man.

• 0:34Dr. John Delony?

  I've never heard of nude pickleball, man. I'm just trying to imagine it and then I keep trying to not imagine it.

• 0:43Dr. John Delony?

  What's going on? This is John with the Dr. John Deloney Show. So glad that you're with us. Pull up a seat and we're going to figure out what's the next right move in your life. We're talking about your relationships, your dating, your marriages, your kids, or your mental and emotional health, your work, whatever you've got going on. Pull up a seat, we're going to figure it out together. I'd love to have you on the show. If you want to be on the show, click the link in the show notes and fill out the form and we will get you on. Let's go out to Indianapolis, Indiana and talk to Ray. What's up, Ray?

• 1:17Speaker 01

  Hey, what's up, Dr. John? How are you doing?

• 1:19Dr. John Delony?

  I'm good, brother. How are you?

• 1:20Speaker 01

  I'm doing well. Thanks for taking my call.

• 1:22Dr. John Delony?

  You got it, man. What's going on?

• 1:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, so my question today is whether or not nudity or nakedness is evil or wrong or sinful.

• 1:30Dr. John Delony?

  Nudity's awesome.

• 1:33Dr. John Delony?

  I mean, it's context, right? Like.

• 1:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, definitely.

• 1:36Dr. John Delony?

  What's your, tell me about your question.

• 1:39Speaker 01

  Sure. Yeah, so I'm really comfortable not wearing clothing in inappropriate settings. In so much that I even modeled at college for an art class. And since then, I've found a few places across the US where like being in a birthday suit is completely acceptable. Like we play pickleball, volleyball, swim, sit on fabric or towels. And we just have a good time.

• 2:00Dr. John Delony?

  You play nude pickleball?

• 2:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's pretty fun, man.

• 2:05Dr. John Delony?

  Bro, I feel like.

• 2:08Dr. John Delony?

  Kelly will edit this out. I feel.

• 2:11Speaker 01

  Nothing hurts. It's not that bad.

• 2:14Dr. John Delony?

  What if you get hit in the goods with a pickleball, dude?

• 2:18Speaker 01

  It hasn't happened so far. I guess that's when else to.

• 2:23Dr. John Delony?

  All right, man. Each his own, dude.

• 2:26Speaker 01

  Definitely.

• 2:27Dr. John Delony?

  So.

• 2:29Dr. John Delony?

  Keep going, keep going.

• 2:31Dr. John Delony?

  I've never heard of nude pickleball, man. I'm just trying to imagine it and then I keep trying to not imagine it. So it's all happening at once.

• 2:37Speaker 01

  It's fun, it's fun. So I've noticed that like in American culture.

• 2:42Speaker 01

  America, oh, North American culture, it could be somewhat puritanical, Buddhist. And my choice of lifestyle didn't really sit well with my former partner.

• 2:50Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 2:51Speaker 01

  And after like a lot of hard conversations. She had a really hard time accepting me being nude socially. Um, even worked out after a lot of conversations that it came down to like a moral feeling for her.

• 3:06Speaker 01

  And I thought that was pretty irrational. More context is that we're both Christian.

• 3:10Dr. John Delony?

  You thought it was pretty rational or irrational?

• 3:13Speaker 01

  Irrational, irrational.

• 3:14Dr. John Delony?

  Irrational, okay.

• 3:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. More context is that we're both Christian and we both know the reason. Um, but I was content to not ask her to participate particularly because she was in the education system. Uh, that's where she works. So I guess my second question is how to approach relationships in the future, particularly like Christian relationships where this might come up?

• 3:38Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 3:42Dr. John Delony?

  I don't really.

• 3:45Dr. John Delony?

  I guess let's, let's, let's, let's work backwards here.

• 3:51Dr. John Delony?

  I don't.

• 3:56Dr. John Delony?

  Okay, so let's don't work backwards. Let me, let me just like clear the deck here. Ask your question again. What's question number one and what's question number two?

• 4:04Speaker 01

  Question number one is whether or not nudity is naked. I mean nudity or nakedness is evil or wrong or sinful. It's just not something to do outside of marriage. And my second question is how do I like approach these conversations and relationships, particularly like Christian relationships, given that I found myself in a really good community right now?

• 4:22Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, so I think number one is that it's a, it's a false way of asking a question because you automatically back the answer of that question into a really tight corner that's, that's, it's, that will force an unfair answer. Ask the question in a more honest way, which is, which it sounds like you're asking me. Is me choosing to be naked around a bunch of other naked people, is that inherently wrong?

• 4:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, thank you.

• 4:50Dr. John Delony?

  If everybody's consensual adults.

• 4:52Speaker 01

  Right.

• 4:53Dr. John Delony?

  Right? And so my question to you would be, what was it about modeling? That was a, felt, felt good? And I'm not saying that in a sexual way, but there was something about that experience that made you feel alive? Or they just paid you 50 bucks and it didn't bother you, so you didn't care?

• 5:13Speaker 01

  I think it was a little both. It was definitely the best paying job I had in college.

• 5:16Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 5:18Speaker 01

  I did feel pretty alive doing it. Like it just felt different and out there and it was like different from my upbringing, which is like pretty conservative.

• 5:25Dr. John Delony?

  Okay, so tell me about, tell me about that.

• 5:28Speaker 01

  I mean, I grew up in a Christian household. Uh, never really approached sexuality in any way, in any terms of conversation or I guess even lifestyle choices per se with outside. I mean, just, I've always wanted to wait till, wait till marriage and I'm still doing that. So maybe this is just one of those ways that I found to like exercise some, I guess, choice or will in that decision, outside of that decision or within those limits, I guess.

• 5:57Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 5:57Speaker 01

  That I put myself or that's been placed on me. It would just feel pretty freeing and new and different, I guess.

• 6:03Dr. John Delony?

  Okay. And so.

• 6:08Dr. John Delony?

  Everybody feels, goes searching for that sense of aliveness in our life, right? There's, there's neurochemicals, like that's, that's a part of the human experience is seeking aliveness, right? And there's the reason we have our forebrain, which helps us not just be hedonic, not just hit the gas at all times, right?

• 6:28Speaker 01

  Right.

• 6:29Dr. John Delony?

  And so.

• 6:31Dr. John Delony?

  It's you being honest about what are you getting out of these experiences?

• 6:37Speaker 01

  I will say now that like that's how it started, but now I just kind of enjoy the community. The people are pretty cool. And then when you do sport without clothing, it's a lot more comfortable. So I'm being honest about that. Like swimming without clothing is also a lot more comfortable.

• 6:54Dr. John Delony?

  I can see swimming with clothing. I just can't wrap my head around pickle, nude pickleball being more comfortable, but I gotta trust you on that because I've never done it, right? I've never done it. I like, I like everything being snug and secure. So.

• 7:08Speaker 01

  Understandable. But no, I think it's, it's stepped down from that a while ago. Like that, that feeling kind of went away pretty quickly. It did pretty, it became to me more mundane, but I wouldn't say entirely. So it's just a lot more, oh yeah, that's cool.

• 7:24Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 7:24Speaker 01

  But also I got to play sport. Like it's fun to me at least.

• 7:30Dr. John Delony?

  I know plenty, almost all, myself included. I have conversations about sex all day, every day and none of it is sexual, right? And I have almost, not almost all, but many of my friends are in helping professions, whether it's in the medical field or whatever. And they're dealing with nudity all day long and none of it is sexual.

• 7:49Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 7:50Dr. John Delony?

  Right? And.

• 7:53Dr. John Delony?

  You add in the social component, you add, you take off any sort of ethical breaks, you take off any sort of, um, what I would call professional training and you, you begin to grease the social, social lubricant. Like I like to hang out with and do things naked with other people. You have to admit that changes the dynamic.

• 8:13Dr. John Delony?

  Is that fair?

• 8:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:17Dr. John Delony?

  Because, because let's flip, let's flip this conversation. And this is a good conversation to me to have out loud because I've never, I've never even thought about this before. So I'm, I'm thinking in real time.

• 8:27Dr. John Delony?

  If it doesn't matter, then why doesn't it, why does it matter?

• 8:32Speaker 01

  If it doesn't matter, why does it matter?

• 8:34Dr. John Delony?

  Right. So if it's just nudity and it doesn't matter, then if you're with somebody and you love them and they say, hey, I feel more comfortable, you put some pants on. Why wouldn't you just put pants on then? Because it doesn't matter.

• 8:48Speaker 01

  Okay, I guess the issue I have with that is I feel like some of those lines are a little bit arbitrary. And yes, very much based on culture.

• 9:00Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 9:01Speaker 01

  But I could see your point.

• 9:04Dr. John Delony?

  All this to say is this, you're gonna have to look in the mirror and make your decision on this.

• 9:09Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 9:10Dr. John Delony?

  And anytime you or me or anyone, Kelly, our friends, our family, anytime a person by themselves looks in the mirror and makes a value judgment, I think this is important to me. I think this matters.

• 9:25Dr. John Delony?

  Every time you make a value judgment, you anchor yourself into bedrock. And by the way, I think beliefs and values are very different things, but if I make a value judgment, boom, I have to live with the consequences of that.

• 9:40Speaker 01

  Right.

• 9:41Dr. John Delony?

  Right? And for you, the consequence may be that you're surrounded by a whole bunch of people who share other beliefs, other value systems that can't reconcile this one.

• 9:51Speaker 01

  Right.

• 9:52Dr. John Delony?

  And so you just have to know going in, it's a value proposition for me that I can go be naked with a bunch of strangers, build community, nobody wears any clothes, we go play together, we go on adventures together, we go hiking together, we play sports together. You, as a person of integrity, you have to also see that that might make other people uncomfortable. And they're not stupid or dumb or somehow Neanderthal because they're not comfortable with it.

• 10:17Speaker 01

  Right.

• 10:17Dr. John Delony?

  Because you have to understand, I am in a very small minority of people who choose to do this thing.

• 10:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 10:26Dr. John Delony?

  And so if you're gonna make a, like a claim, this has, there's nothing sexual about this, there's nothing engaging about this, this is just the way I feel that I need to do my life. You get to make that decision, you're a grown man. But all of those decisions are gonna come at a cost.

• 10:44Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 10:45Dr. John Delony?

  And so to answer your second question, yeah, you're gonna have a tough time, man. You've put some unique constraints on yourself. I wanna be with somebody who has this particular

• 10:57Dr. John Delony?

  viewpoint on the world, which comes with a prepackaged understanding of what sexuality means and what fidelity means and what sensuality means. And I also wanna be a part of this other community that is free for all. When it comes to clothing optional, right?

• 11:17Speaker 01

  Right.

• 11:19Speaker 01

  And that is a bind.

• 11:20Dr. John Delony?

  It's very much a bind, but I want you to own that you are self-selecting, you're choosing to walk into this bind.

• 11:26Speaker 01

  Right.

• 11:27Dr. John Delony?

  Which conversely means I'm choosing to walk in and I might potentially find myself really lonely.

• 11:33Speaker 01

  Right. Okay.

• 11:37Dr. John Delony?

  And so all a relationship is, like when you're meeting somebody and you're dating them and you're potentially looking at a future with them together, you're always seeing, are we sharing values here? Which values, did you think were values that actually you're willing to compromise because they were actually beliefs? Which things will I not, I will not budge on? And so you being honest about what does nudity bring to you? Is it this rejection of, like, everyone telling you what to do? Is it rejection of norms? Have you just worked it all the way out in your head philosophically and cognitively and said, I think that other people's view of nudity is just wrong. I like looking at naked people and I like people looking at me, it feels good, I like it. But there's not sexual, I'm not gonna go sleep with these people, it's not like...

• 12:22Dr. John Delony?

  If you've worked that out in your head and that's where you've landed, you and I can disagree on that. But you're gonna have to be honest with the person you wanna pursue in a relationship, especially if you add this faith component to it. And so you gotta make that decision for yourself, but what I wanna challenge you on is, is it the feeling of aliveness? Is it the feeling of being seen? Is it the feeling of seeing others? Is it the feeling of, I'm doing something, I feel alive because I'm doing a thing that I know other people bristle at?

• 12:54Speaker 01

  Being as transparent as I can, I'd say it was the feeling of being seen when I started off.

• 12:59Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 12:59Speaker 01

  I'd do that, but like as I've grown into it, if you wanna use the word grown, it's more so that, okay, I met these people there, they know me, I know them, we hang out, we play games, we bond, but it's, the aliveness kinda went away pretty quickly. Like, it got the old past, I think, for me at least.

• 13:18Dr. John Delony?

  But I'm saying, is it like, is it, is this your biker gang? Y'all are countercultural in that way. Or I hang out with comics a lot and the conversations we have in green rooms, whoa, right? But it's a bunch of people who are funny, who see the world a little bit obtusely and awkwardly and differently, and everybody who's super comfortable in their own skin. And so, man, the jokes are flying, the insults are flying, the, like, whoa, that was, that was pretty harsh, like, that was too far, like, but it's a, it's a countercultural group. It's a group of people who experience the world differently.

• 13:54Speaker 01

  Okay, I see that.

• 13:55Dr. John Delony?

  Right?

• 13:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:57Dr. John Delony?

  And so if that's the case, you also have, I have to know, if somebody has a video camera and they're recording private conversations of mine in a green room with certain people, I could be unemployable forever.

• 14:10Speaker 01

  Right.

• 14:11Dr. John Delony?

  Right? And you have to know, like, if you're a part of a, and again, I am totally out over my skis here. If you're a part of a Sons of Anarchy gang and y'all all experience the world a little bit differently, and you murder people, you might go to jail.

• 14:28Speaker 01

  Right.

• 14:29Dr. John Delony?

  Right? So if you're a part of a countercultural group and everyone loves doing everything naked,

• 14:36Dr. John Delony?

  there, there might be consequences socially and culturally because it's outside the norm.

• 14:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 14:42Dr. John Delony?

  Right? You might wanna become a teacher one day and all your students are passing around pictures of somebody took of you playing nude pickleball. And the school district says, man, I can't, I can't have, I can't have that.

• 14:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 14:54Dr. John Delony?

  Right?

• 14:57Dr. John Delony?

  It, it's...

• 15:00Dr. John Delony?

  I guess what I want you to get, the place I want you to get to is,

• 15:05Dr. John Delony?

  asking the question, is nudity evil, isn't a fair question. Because of course the answer is context to pay.

• 15:12Speaker 01

  Right. And I would apologize for that mix up earlier.

• 15:15Dr. John Delony?

  No, no, no, don't apologize, I just, I just, like, I'm not being, trying to be antagonistic. I just want you to, like, own the, okay, I can see how I can back somebody in a corner with a question like that and...

• 15:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:27Dr. John Delony?

  But the real question is, is, are people out of their mind because they don't understand that I like playing with other, other adults nude?

• 15:37Dr. John Delony?

  I don't think it's a fair characterization to say other people are somehow less than or dumb or puritanical or stupid because they don't understand that.

• 15:45Speaker 01

  Okay, I agree.

• 15:47Dr. John Delony?

  In the same way that my wife will never understand why me and my friends like to rip on each other's hearts. She's like, I can't understand how friends talk to each other like that.

• 15:55Speaker 01

  Right, well, thank you for that.

• 15:56Dr. John Delony?

  I have to say, I, I get that. I, I, I understand your perspective on that.

• 16:01Speaker 01

  No, it's changing as we talk, so thank you for that.

• 16:03Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah. And finding another Christian nudist, you know what? I'm confident that people will write in and say, I'm one, so best of luck to you on that.

• 16:13Speaker 01

  I'm not even gonna read the comments.

• 16:15Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, don't do that, don't do that. And, and the comments are gonna be roasting me as well, by the way, brother, so it's all good. Um, I've never, ever, ever had this, this conversation before, so I appreciate you letting me have it. And I'll also say this, I've talked a lot. Talk back to me now.

• 16:32Speaker 01

  Hmm, I don't know if there's anything else I wanna push back at or ask about.

• 16:36Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 16:41Dr. John Delony?

  Do I sound crazy?

• 16:44Speaker 01

  No, you don't. I appreciate you pushing back on me using the word puritanical, believing that, like, it's, everyone else is crazy. I guess I've been so seated in my own set of conversations with my ex that I kinda like built up this hedge against what I think was okay.

• 17:06Speaker 01

  But yeah, I guess my, I guess my ideology is that, like, you take your clothes off, you don't take your morals off, so you try to be respectful of people and that, and that, you just don't do anything crazy.

• 17:18Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah. Um... And, and I think, I think it's honest to say,

• 17:23Dr. John Delony?

  there is, there is playing with fire there.

• 17:31Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 17:33Dr. John Delony?

  Do you disagree with that?

• 17:35Speaker 01

  Um, yes.

• 17:38Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 17:39Speaker 01

  I, I think you can play with fire with people who are, like, out and about in just provocative clothing as well.

• 17:46Dr. John Delony?

  A hundred percent, yes, totally agree with you.

• 17:49Speaker 01

  Clothing can make a body more provocative than not clothing.

• 17:52Dr. John Delony?

  That's probably true. That's, that's probably very, very true, actually. You're, you're probably onto something there.

• 17:59Dr. John Delony?

  Yes, some, some of the, yeah, some of the athletic wear is not honest in its presentation. That is very true.

• 18:07Speaker 01

  I fully agree. I know I said it, but like, I, I just can't see, can't see past that being, unless someone else could, like, convince me otherwise. But yeah, that's where I stand on that for now.

• 18:19Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 18:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:20Dr. John Delony?

  Well, I appreciate you having the discussion with me and...

• 18:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:24Dr. John Delony?

  Um, I, I say this often and it's, and people kinda roll their eyes at me. It's one of my favorite things in the world to, A, disagree with somebody and to think through something completely wrong. And maybe somebody will write in and let me know, like, hey, here's another way to see this, that's great and good.

• 18:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, that'd be awesome. I definitely, hopefully, I hear that podcast.

• 18:46Dr. John Delony?

  Well, I appreciate the conversation, brother. I, I...

• 18:51Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, you know what? I'm gonna have to do some deeper thinking on it, but yes, my, my...

• 19:01Dr. John Delony?

  I think nudity is very context specific and I do, I believe that nudity, if you will, in medical context and health-related context with trained experts and clinicians, by the way, that that sometimes violate their ethical standards, man. Like, there's, there's time and time and time again that happens. Is that different thing than romantic nudity?

• 19:33Dr. John Delony?

  And those are, those are different things for me. So going to the doctors and having your prostate checked is different than being intimate with your wife, right? And, but that's largely because of the context we're bringing to that interaction. And so all that to say is, it's a big old messy thing. But as for me, I'm not gonna be playing naked pickleball anytime soon. And as for me, I wouldn't want my wife out playing naked pickleball with a bunch of strangers either, and vice versa. So, there you go. Kelly, on the other hand, may be super into naked pickleball. I don't know, we'll talk about that on another show. Thanks for calling, brother.

• 20:14Dr. John Delony?

  When we come back, a woman asks how to support her husband after learning about his lack of confidence. We'll be right back.

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• 21:49Dr. John Delony?

  All right, let's go to Brooklyn, New York and talk to Sarah. Hey, Sarah, what's up?

• 21:54Speaker 02

  Hi, Dr. John, it's a pleasure to talk to you today.

• 21:57Dr. John Delony?

  It's a pleasure to talk to you. What's going on?

• 22:00Speaker 02

  So I was wondering how to best support my husband after he told me about his lack of confidence.

• 22:10Dr. John Delony?

  Tell me about it.

• 22:12Speaker 02

  So, we've been married for two years and he doesn't open up so much, I would say. And then this time when he was open, I just, like, didn't know what to do. And I think I wouldn't have brought up the conversation had I known about it. But he only brought it up once you're like in the middle of the conversation. And I was just like, oh, my gosh, like, what did, what did I do now?

• 22:40Dr. John Delony?

  So what conversation were y'all having?

• 22:43Speaker 02

  So, he had said no to an opportunity that he was very, very interested in. And it wasn't the first time that something like this has happened. And I had gotten very frustrated because it wasn't the first time. And it ended up, we, we weren't even home. We were in like an unknown setting and it was just like a very crazy time. But I basically had told him, I feel like he just always says no to things that are hard or take effort. And, and he just is very, he might be interested in something, but then the second, like, it comes to either saying yes or going further, he'll just shut it down and just say, actually, I'm not so interested or something like that.

• 23:28Speaker 02

  And his response was that he knows he's lazy, he knows he doesn't like hard things, and he doesn't have self-confidence. And that was his response to what I had said. And I was like in such a place of shock. And I didn't have any idea that he felt that way. And I feel like I tried to support him and be someone that he can rely on and something like that. But it was, it was really hard to hear. And I didn't know what to do, so I wrote it.

• 23:57Dr. John Delony?

  What, what was hard to hear about that? Because I'm trying to figure out is the fact that he said something finally that was going on inside of his heart and mind. Was that the shocking thing? Or was the shocking thing that he acknowledged, I'm lazy? I don't like doing anything that makes me remotely uncomfortable. And I lack self-confidence. Because all three of those things can be very true, too. All, they can all be true at the same time.

• 24:23Speaker 02

  Right, I think the hard part was the fact that he's someone that I, like, rely on and I consider to be someone that will help me in difficult times. And to hear that he was struggling himself made me feel that I wasn't necessarily

• 24:44Speaker 02

  doing enough to help him, or I was doing something wrong.

• 24:48Dr. John Delony?

  Gotcha. So here's one of the, how long, how long have y'all been married?

• 24:54Speaker 02

  Two years.

• 24:54Dr. John Delony?

  Okay. Here's one of the scariest, most empowering, most frustrating, most set-you-free things about being married to somebody.

• 25:08Dr. John Delony?

  And that's this. You can't make somebody else do anything.

• 25:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:17Dr. John Delony?

  And so you can't, my, my buddy Jefferson Fisher, I like the way he phrased this. He said, when you're married, you give each other the nuclear codes. Like, I, I can hurt my wife's feelings, you can hurt his feelings, he can hurt your feelings. Like, he knows the things to say, he knows the buttons to push. And part of being married is not using those codes. Using the nuclear power to power a city with no environmental waste versus blowing the city up, right? And so you know how you can lift him up and empower him, but you can't make him be more confident.

• 25:53Dr. John Delony?

  Strangely, you can't make him be less lazy. You can, you can nag and complain and beat him up and whine, and he might go do stuff, but that's not gonna make him less lazy.

• 26:09Dr. John Delony?

  You can't make him want to do hard things. Do what?

• 26:13Speaker 02

  It's not gonna be good for the marriage either.

• 26:15Dr. John Delony?

  No, it's always a losing strategy, right, right. And so some people push back and say, oh, I can make my spouse do X, Y, Z. And my response is always, for a minute, you're right. But you're gonna lose your relationship in the process. And so, is part of what you heard scary to you? That you realized, oh, this is a guy who's just admitting, you can't really anchor into me. When things get hard, I'm just, I'm not gonna be a part of it.

• 26:43Dr. John Delony?

  Is, is that part of this?

• 26:46Speaker 02

  I, I don't think I've seen it when it comes to, to something that is between us. I think I see it when it comes to the outside world. And let's say, like, but, but my head, my head jumps ahead to, it, it has a lot to do with, let's say, him, him supporting the family or in that regard. So the basis for us to be able to exist as a family feels not threatened, but feels like it would be affected versus our actual relationship in that regard. I don't, because I, it's, I didn't know in the sense that, like, it's not something that appears every day. It's not like I wake up and, and can see, oh, yeah, that, like, he, he doesn't have self-confidence.

• 27:29Speaker 02

  It was, I was, it was, it was something that was new information because it's, it's not something that, that I would have seen based, based on his actions. But now everything else kind of feels like it can be affected by that, just how we live our lives and how the rest of our life will go.

• 27:48Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah. And so I, I think you're right to wor, to be worried about.

• 28:01Dr. John Delony?

  Like, the, the weight of, of responsibility is an actual weight, right? And if somebody, you've seen them repeatedly, when the weight gets even the room, like, a little bit heavy, they're like, no, I'm not lifting that, I'm not lifting. If you've seen that over and over again, and then finally, the person looks at you and says, I'm, I don't like to lift the weight. Um, it's uncomfortable. And by the way, I don't even think I can lift that weight. You're right to be worried about, what happens when we add kids to this? What happens when we add a mortgage to this? Cause that's real weight, right?

• 28:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I, and I don't think he's had the experience of having to work very hard to let they provide for something because, you know, he was in the school system and then, once we got married and he was still learning, I was the one that had a good job. So he didn't have to worry about it. Now it's, now it's mellowed out a little bit where we're both getting paid and, and it's fine, but, but, right now, we're doing something temporary and we know we're not going to be in this specific place long-term. So it's like, what happens when it's long-term and hopefully we have little kids running around that I have to take care of, like, how is he gonna show up to that? And obviously, you never know, in general, how your life's gonna play out, but-

• 29:25Dr. John Delony?

  But he was pretty clear. He was pretty clear with you.

• 29:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:29Dr. John Delony?

  Right? And so, I, I'll, hear me say this, you are not being a bad wife by being worried about, by his admission. You're not being an unsupporting friend, an unsupporting partner, an unsupporting spouse, by seeing him repeatedly shirk responsibilities or not step into the next thing. And then he tells you, I don't like it. It's gonna, I'm gonna have to work extra hard. I don't want to do that. And then follow up with, I don't have any confidence. Cause here's the thing about confidence, confidence is not a cognitive exercise.

• 30:03Speaker 02

  What does that mean?

• 30:05Dr. John Delony?

  That, blustery, guys who are like, dude, yeah, um, if this ever happens, I'm gonna fight this guy. And they've never been in a fight? That's not confidence, that's bluster.

• 30:15Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 30:15Dr. John Delony?

  You get confidence by doing things, hard things, over and over and over again, right at the ledge of whether you think you can do it or not. And it's really uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable, learning-wise, it's uncomfortable, physical-wise, but that's how you gain confidence. Oh, I can do that thing.

• 30:36Speaker 02

  So would it kind of not be crazy if, right now, he doesn't have confidence, but if he shows up to the hard, to the hard situations, or just shows up in general by saying yes to something he doesn't feel comfortable with, that that will change?

• 30:51Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, it becomes, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. I don't, there's a difference between I don't want to and I can't. Your, your question is really important and instructive, because all of us are married to people who have one vice or another, or one challenge or another, or multiple challenges or others. And how do we love them well, right? When they have those challenges? Um, because just hassling them, or nagging them, or whining about it, that doesn't solve the problem. And just disconnecting and creating your own life by yourself, that's not, that's not helpful. Right? So how do you love somebody in this situation? Um, but yes, I would want to ask, like, at some point, he's got to, and here's

• 31:34Dr. John Delony?

  the frustrating thing for you as somebody who loves him, it's gonna happen. The world will shove him underneath a bench press bar, or a squat bar, and I'm, I'm using bench press and squat as life. Somebody will pass away. Somebody will, he'll have great loss. He'll lose a job. He'll, you'll have a complication in pregnancy. Like, life will happen. And the reason you do-

• 31:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, we've experienced some of that.

• 31:59Dr. John Delony?

  There you go. And so, the reason we do small, hard things every day, all the time, is so that, when life happens, there's a strength and a resilience and a confidence that's been earned, not thought through over and over and over and over again, but is lived out in real-life experience. I've done hard things over and over again, forever. And so, now that I'm facing this other hard thing, that maybe I haven't trained for specifically, I know that I can trust my body, I can trust my mind to be still and present, I can trust my emotional responses. I've put in the work on that end.

• 32:36Speaker 02

  Right. So what's my role in that?

• 32:40Dr. John Delony?

  Is A, to be honest. And be honest, not as a, um, like you're sitting up above him, looking down.

• 32:52Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 32:53Dr. John Delony?

  But be honest about, cause, cause when you feel frustrated that he turned down another job opportunity, when you feel frustrated that he won't get off the couch and get a second job, even though he has a bunch of student loans, I'm just making stuff up, by the way. Um, when you know he is unhealthy and doesn't feel good, but also, he just keeps sitting down with two more burritos and a bag of Cheetos, and he's like, I don't wanna, I don't want exercise, ugh. Like, he knows when you're frustrated with him.

• 33:23Dr. John Delony?

  And so, honesty is you saying, here's who you say you want to be, and here's the things you're doing, and I want, as someone who loves you, I'm gonna challenge you on, I see the gap. And-

• 33:35Speaker 02

  How, when does that not become nagging?

• 33:40Dr. John Delony?

  Nagging is about you getting your way.

• 33:43Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 33:44Dr. John Delony?

  Challenging a spouse-

• 33:45Speaker 02

  This is presenting him-

• 33:47Dr. John Delony?

  Right. Challenging a spouse is, I'm gonna, like, we have both agreed on who we want to be. We both have agreed on where we want to go. And if y'all haven't got, like, had a dreamy, like, what do we want our life to look like? We wanna have our own house one day. We wanna live in the city or upstate. We want to have three kids, or two kids. We wanna have three kids and I wanna stay at home. So that means we're gonna have, here's a math problem we have to solve. We need to have this much income. What are you doing now, on the front end, so that, when we achieve these things, when we get to these places, we're ready to rock and roll? And that's where you can look in and say, that's why every team, like, if you take a professional sports team, they write on the board at the

• 34:32Dr. John Delony?

  beginning of the year, we want to be champion. And so, from that, from that vision we have together, we're, that identity we have, future champion, underneath that, we're gonna start putting in work that we all have to do, to, on our own, so that we can all accomplish this thing together.

• 34:52Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 34:52Dr. John Delony?

  Otherwise, you end up with two people running parallel lives.

• 34:55Speaker 02

  Right.

• 34:56Dr. John Delony?

  And so, you're not wrong to demand from your husband that he stand up and be somebody you can anchor into. You're not wrong for that. And demand doesn't have to be a screaming and a pointing your finger in somebody's chest. It can be a gentle, on the couch, looking each other in the eyes, saying, hey, we made a commitment, that we're in this together. How can I love you well, so that you can go do the work you need to do to develop this thing called confidence and strength and emotional maturity?

• 35:32Speaker 02

  Right.

• 35:34Dr. John Delony?

  Cause we both have a dream of me being a stay-at-home mom. We both have a dream of us being a two-income family. And right now, you keep turning down every job opportunity, every opportunity for advancement, every opportunity for, um, extra hours to make more money, so that we can accomplish the dream that we both set in. We both agreed on. And if he says, I'm not doing any of that. I don't like hard things. I'm never gonna do hard things. Then the choice goes back into your court. What am I gonna do next? And that's a scary, scary-

• 36:09Speaker 02

  What can you do? Yeah.

• 36:11Dr. John Delony?

  I mean, you can leave, or you can say, okay, here's the reality I'm choosing to stay in. I have a husband who will not do hard things. That means I'm going to have to be extra strong. My vision of wanting to be a stay-at-home mom will end, cause that will never happen. I will be responsible for the economics of this, of this partnership. I'll be responsible for the childcare in this partnership. And I'll be responsible for a second, third, or fourth kid, which, in the form of a grown man, sit on the couch. But I want you to own all of those choices, not as though they're happening to you. I'm making this choice.

• 36:43Speaker 02

  Right. Yeah, I, I don't envision it ending that way, but I'm happy to know what the tools are, if something like that were to happen.

• 36:55Dr. John Delony?

  Right.

• 36:56Speaker 02

  In any capacity.

• 36:57Dr. John Delony?

  Sure. And I'll tell you, I have benefited greatly, over 30 years of being with the same person. From my wife saying, I see something in you that you, in you that you don't see.

• 37:11Dr. John Delony?

  I'm asking you to go get the help you need, so that you can see what I see.

• 37:18Dr. John Delony?

  And sometimes that help has been in the form of a workout partner. Sometimes that has been in the form of a group of men and women that I go hang out with just to have friends. Sometimes that's been in the form of a therapist. Sometimes that's been in the form of a spiritual guide. But her being as a ride or die, being able to see, we're both driving down the highway on our motorcycles and she sees a big potholes coming. She loved me enough to say, hey, here comes some big potholes and pay extra attention here. That's her loving me well.

• 37:51Speaker 02

  Right. Yeah. And I think being two years in, I very much understand that the marriage is going to change because that's what happens as you spend time with one person for hopefully the rest of your lives.

• 38:06Dr. John Delony?

  That's exactly right.

• 38:07Speaker 02

  So whatever's happening now, I know 10 years down the road, I'll be able to hopefully look back and say like, that was crazy and I'm glad we are where we are.

• 38:15Dr. John Delony?

  Oh gosh. And dude, I'm like nine versions of myself since I was two years in, at least. Thank God my wife's not married to the guy she was married to two years in. Thank God. That guy was a maniac. And so, yes, you have reason for great hope and great dreams for who you're going to become and you're going to change multiple times. He'll change multiple times, which means your marriage will change multiple times. But I want to release you from the burden that somehow you haven't given him confidence.

• 38:55Dr. John Delony?

  I'll also say, I'll counter myself and say, I do believe that in a marriage relationship, generally speaking, partners will rise, spouses will rise to their partner's belief in them. So there's something powerful. You can breathe life into his lungs by looking at him and saying, I believe in you and it breaks my heart that you don't believe in you. I'm asking you for the sake of yourself, for the sake of me, for the sake of our marriage, that you go get the help you need and go put in a series of practices of you regularly doing hard things. If you have reason to believe in him, let him know that. If you have confidence in him, let him know that. If you don't have confidence in him, let him know that. Be honest, because he can feel it if you don't.

• 39:40Dr. John Delony?

  And then don't be afraid to call him to a higher standard and let him know, I'm anchored right in here with you and I'll walk alongside you and I'm going to do my work too. I'm going to keep working to get better and better at this thing too. And then he's going to have some hard choices to make. There's no easy path. Sitting on the couch, eating Cheetos is a hard life. It's a hard life to live and getting out and doing hard things over and over every day. That's a hard life too. It's just choose your hard. One of them, one of those paths is going to get you where you want to go. One of those paths is going to not. That's the algorithm of life. Thanks for the call. Thanks for loving your husband well and wanting to do this right. I want to free you from ownership of what he has to do next and also empower you to

• 40:23Dr. John Delony?

  encourage him, to hold him accountable through seeing and knowing and celebrating him regularly when you can, so that you can challenge him to call him to a higher standard. That's what love looks like. Thanks for the call. We come back, a couple asks how to support a friend and her children who live with an abusive husband without making their situation more dangerous. We'll be right back. This is an ad from BetterHelp. Have you ever had a thought or a moment that replays over and over in your head? Maybe it's a worry that wakes you up at 2:00 AM or that awkward interaction you had with your coworker last week? Or maybe it's some painful or embarrassing thing or things that happened years ago

• 41:05Dr. John Delony?

  that you just keep replaying over and over and over. Whatever it is, we've all been there. I've been there too. There's so much stuff taking up space in your brain that you wish you could just shut it all off. Listen, talking to a BetterHelp therapist can be so, so helpful. It's a great place to process all of these thoughts that just don't seem to stop and it helps you put the weight down. BetterHelp therapists are trained professionals who can help you get to the root of those looping thoughts and stop them once and for all. And now BetterHelp is in-network with more than 100 health plans. Many members pay 15 bucks per session. That's it. Some pay zero. And even if you're not eligible, you can still get 10% off your first month with BetterHelp.

• 41:50Dr. John Delony?

  So start BetterHelp today and stop the endless thoughts from replaying over and over again. Check out your options at betterhelp.com/deloney or just click the link in the description. Again, that's betterhelp, H E L P, dot com slash deloney. All right. Hey, take two seconds and go to johndeloney.com or click the link in the show notes to preorder my brand new book, Building the Marriage You Want. This book is everything I know about what happened to marriages, how we got here, why fewer people than ever are getting married, and for those that are, why it feels harder than ever. Answers this question, is marriage still worth it?

• 42:30Dr. John Delony?

  And if so, answers this question, how do you do it in the chaos of the 21st century? I'm super proud of this book. I took all the nerd stuff, all thousands of conversations with individuals and with couples, and I distilled it down and wrote it in a way that what I would say, regular people like me could actually read it. And it is for couples who are engaged, couples who are thinking about getting engaged, all the way to people who've been married for 20, 30, 40, 50 years, who just want to ride off into the sunset in the best possible way. It's called Building the Marriage You Want. It's available for pre-sale right now. They will ship to your door. They'll be there January 26th. And if you preorder it now, it really, really helps me out. This is you doing me a solid.

• 43:15Dr. John Delony?

  So go to johndeloney.com or click the link in the show notes. Let's go out to Pensacola, Florida and talk to David. Hey David, what's up, man?

• 43:23Speaker 03

  What up, Dr. D?

• 43:25Dr. John Delony?

  What's up? How we doing?

• 43:27Speaker 03

  Bro, so grateful to be talking to you.

• 43:31Dr. John Delony?

  You too, man.

• 43:32Speaker 03

  You're my boy, not in a weird way.

• 43:34Dr. John Delony?

  You're my boy, Blue. All right. So I just, I'm seeing this on the board. Is your wife coming on too?

• 43:40Speaker 03

  She's coming on.

• 43:42Dr. John Delony?

  Excellent. All right. So let me pull her up here. We'll pull up Christina. Hey Christina, what's up?

• 43:47Speaker 02

  Hey, I'm here.

• 43:48Dr. John Delony?

  Hi. All right. So I've got both of you on. Awesome. David and Christina from Pensacola, Florida. So whoever wrote in, go first. What's up?

• 43:58Speaker 03

  Okay. I wrote in. I'll read my question.

• 44:02Dr. John Delony?

  All right.

• 44:03Speaker 03

  My wife and I are close friends with a married couple with five kids and another on the way. The husband is verbally and emotionally abusive and has been physically abusive in the past. He also has a history of becoming aggressive and violent when drinking and he recently started drinking again after several years of sobriety. Outside of the home, he's incredibly charismatic and friendly and right now, he doesn't seem interested in getting help. We love this family and feel helpless watching our friend and her children live this way. We're afraid that confronting him or pushing her to leave could actually make things more

• 44:48Speaker 03

  dangerous. What is our responsibility as their friends? How do we support her and the kids without accidentally putting them at greater risk?

• 45:00Dr. John Delony?

  Man, great, great question. Hmm. I have lots of thoughts here, but I'm going to make sure I'm clear-headed. How close of a friend are you, David, with this guy?

• 45:17Speaker 03

  I wouldn't say we're that close. You know, the, my wife and his wife are really close, but I don't feel like me and him are super close and mainly for the fact that, you know, I kind of, yeah, like just, just hearing everything coming from his wife, it, I'm not, you know, too thrilled to get too close to him.

• 45:46Dr. John Delony?

  Sure. So Christina, tell me about how this wife has communicated her experiences to you.

• 45:55Speaker 04

  Um, it took a couple of years for her to begin opening up that things are not the greatest at home. Um, and started to share a little bit more over time, um, but kind of shares it nonchalantly. Um, like this is, this is the way it is. Um, this is how our life is. And this, it's just the way it's gonna be is the kind of what the way that she expresses it. Um, I share my opinions and how that is not how a happy marriage should be. Um,

• 46:36Speaker 04

  but that leads us to the question of she feels extremely stuck and thinks there's really, there's no way out.

• 46:43Dr. John Delony?

  Okay. So I've got a couple of just first principles that I live by, and that is if I know of a child or somebody who's unsafe, I will get involved in whatever way I, I think is gonna be the most helpful. Sometimes that is confrontation. Sometimes that is having a hard, direct conversation. Sometimes that's calling the police. So first principle number one is safety reigns over everything. Safety reigns over our relationship. Safety reigns over, you promise you won't tell anybody? Safety, especially, especially when kids are involved. Um, safety reigns over everything.

• 47:24Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 47:25Dr. John Delony?

  And so there's something powerful that I've repeated multiple times in my, in my adult life. Hey, I need to tell you about something. All right. If you tell me, I just need you to know that if I know of kids getting hurt, if I know of, if you're getting hurt, I'm gonna get involved. Just know that before you tell me anything. I'm real direct with that stuff.

• 47:46Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 47:48Dr. John Delony?

  The second part of it is, um, I'm really open about people knowing, like, I'll show up in the middle of the night. You're welcome into my house. And so letting this woman know you have an out, you, you choosing to be, like, to be frozen here, and make no mistake, she's, she's in a prison, right?

• 48:09Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 48:10Dr. John Delony?

  It, her leaving would indeed blow up everything.

• 48:13Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 48:14Dr. John Delony?

  She may be very economically, um, under the gun here. Like, it's really easy to be like, you should leave. All right, I got five kids plus one on the way. Like, where am I gonna live? Where am I gonna, who am I gonna, what food am I gonna eat? Right? So that's a, there's very real penalties to, especially in abusive situations like this, to women, just like, it's easy to bark from the sidelines. It's a hard thing to be in the middle of it, right? Um, and so letting her know to whatever you and David decide, whatever y'all decide, we'll be willing to do, like, here is a safe path. And if you ever have to get out, if you're ever unsafe, if you ever come some drunk, et cetera, here's a place for us to

• 48:58Dr. John Delony?

  go. I'm, I'm, I'm interested in, you, you mentioned multiple times, David, about making things worse. What does that mean?

• 49:05Speaker 03

  Well, we just, you know, we're, we're trying to be like really, really safe in that, since he's been, you know, actually, like physically abusive years ago.

• 49:18Dr. John Delony?

  Uh huh.

• 49:19Speaker 03

  Um, due to, due to the drinking. If, you know, basically if we, you know, poke the bear, is he gonna get physically abusive again? Could we be the cause of that? So we're kind of tiptoeing around this, it feels like.

• 49:37Dr. John Delony?

  Hmm.

• 49:38Speaker 04

  Yeah, we don't wanna make the at-home life worse because obviously, yeah, he's different out in public, and we don't see his version when he's at home.

• 49:51Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 49:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, he's completely different behind closed doors from what we've been told.

• 49:58Dr. John Delony?

  Christina, what has she asked you for? Has she asked you for support or help?

• 50:02Speaker 04

  Um, I would say no. I wouldn't say she's actually asked. She will share what's going on, and we just kind of talk about it. Um, but I feel like we never get to a, a resolution of like, okay, now what do we do?

• 50:22Dr. John Delony?

  So I think there's a moment when you begin to start saying, I'm feeling the need to intervene.

• 50:30Speaker 04

  Uh huh.

• 50:32Dr. John Delony?

  What would you like me to do?

• 50:33Speaker 04

  I think she feels very hopeless right now. I don't even think she knows how to ask for help.

• 50:42Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 50:43Speaker 04

  She said it herself. She's like, I have all these kids. I'm not gonna push my kids on other people. They're, they're my responsibility. Um, even though we've reassured her, you can come here, we will help, we will help in any way. Um, but yeah.

• 50:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, you know, we've, we've definitely talked to her about, you know, her, offer her, you know, help in, in the worst case scenarios, but I guess, um, what we're wondering is what would, what would we do if, you know, say she just left the house and she said, I'm gone for good, and then, you know, how can we, how can we support her there? What if she comes here? Like, what, I mean, not to make it all about us, but, you know, yeah, we're just kind of lost as well as her.

• 51:37Speaker 04

  Yeah, and how to still support, um, safely and appropriately from afar while she is at home.

• 51:45Dr. John Delony?

  Right. So I, I mean, the first, the most important thing is, you, y'all two get together and say, here's, here is the limits of our support. Like, we will make room, we have the room to take five, plus one, five kids, plus a newborn, plus a, um, a mom, and we have the ability to, to do that for six months, for a year. And, or we have the ability to do that for 48 hours. We could, we could bunk our kids up and we could figure it out for 48 hours, and then we needed to go to another, like, to a shelter or to a place.

• 52:23Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 52:24Dr. John Delony?

  We are able to give her $10,000, or we're able to give her $100.

• 52:29Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 52:31Dr. John Delony?

  So you coming up with, um, I will pick you up and I will take you to 10 counseling sessions and I will pay for it.

• 52:38Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 52:40Dr. John Delony?

  Right? So you coming, y'all two coming up with, here's the, here's the bounds of how we can support you. Otherwise, it ends up, everybody's really nervous to take a first step, or not a first step, or I don't wanna promise too much, but I haven't talked to David yet, or David's like, we'll do anything, and then Christina, you're like, yeah, but that's not reality, right? So it's y'all two getting together and saying, here is what we would be able to do. And then sitting down with your friend and saying, David and I have talked, here is what our offer is. Take it anytime. And also telling your friend, if I hear that your husband is drinking and becoming physically abusive again, I'm calling in all of the authorities. And I'm gonna be honest about what I've been told, because

• 53:25Dr. John Delony?

  I'm worried about you and I'm worried about your kids.

• 53:27Speaker 03

  Good.

• 53:28Speaker 04

  Yeah, we definitely need to lay the law on that one right there.

• 53:34Dr. John Delony?

  And, and there's something in, it's a really tricky balance. Okay, so I don't wanna minimize it. I've, I've done it so many times that it's, it's become second nature, but in teaching this, it's a very tricky balance, is I want you, as the person who's a victim here, to understand that you are in the driver's seat.

• 53:57Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 53:59Dr. John Delony?

  Because abuse takes away a person's agency, and I want you to know with me, you have full agency. And I'm moving also. I've got full agency too. Right? And so that's, it's a tricky balance to say, to look at somebody, and I'm gonna use a really egregious example, okay?

• 54:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 54:22Dr. John Delony?

  Um, I've sat with somebody, multiple young people, and said, who's, who's acutely suicidal. And I've said, you're not killing yourself today. Here's your two choices. You can go to inpatient here, you can go to inpatient here. And in a way, I've taken away their agency. And in another way, it, when they feel there's only one option, I've taken that option off the table and given them two brand-new options. And also said, I'll be right here with you.

• 54:54Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 54:55Dr. John Delony?

  Right? And so it's a weird, tricky balance of, I'm taking away this agency, but I'm giving you this agency. And that's, in this situation, you looking at her and saying, if I hear this again, I'm gonna, I want you to know, I'm gonna call the police. I can't, I can't keep, you wouldn't say this to her, but you've now become a person that she's holding the cinder block and she hands it to you and says, you carry this for me.

• 55:19Speaker 04

  Well, I get worried that if I say that, she won't share with me anymore, just so we can avoid that conflict.

• 55:27Dr. John Delony?

  But she's, she's an autonomous person. I always assume people are asking for support.

• 55:31Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 55:33Speaker 03

  Right.

• 55:34Dr. John Delony?

  Because, because here's the other, here's the other truth. You can't continue to be her garbage dump. It's impacting your marriage. It's impacting your emotional well-being too.

• 55:46Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 55:47Dr. John Delony?

  And so you saying, here's, I've, because you've got autonomy and agency also. Here's my plan moving forward. If you tell me these things, I've, I've gotta call. I can't let, I can't, I can't know that kids are getting harmed. I can't know that a pregnant woman is getting harmed. I love you enough to have you not like me.

• 56:06Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 56:09Dr. John Delony?

  Right? And let's put it, let's, let's, like, let's play this out. If he comes home drunk and puts his hands on her, and you call the police, and they do a full investigation and arrest him, and she gets put in, in a one-bedroom apartment with five kids, she may 100% blame you. You did this to us. Look what you've done. And you'll have to have the fortitude and strength and support from your husband and your community to say, I didn't do that. I responded to a thing.

• 56:49Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 56:51Dr. John Delony?

  And I'm willing, I've always had to, this is a story I have to tell myself on repeat, I'm willing for you to not like me for the rest of your life, and you be alive to not like me.

• 57:02Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 57:03Dr. John Delony?

  All those are hard.

• 57:11Speaker 03

  Choose your hard.

• 57:12Dr. John Delony?

  That's it. But Christina, no, being a great friend is not, is sometimes intervening. Often it's intervening.

• 57:21Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 57:23Dr. John Delony?

  But it's being really clear and honest and direct about here's what this is gonna be.

• 57:34Speaker 03

  That makes sense.

• 57:35Dr. John Delony?

  But I do believe a hard conversation, not a hard, that's not right, a loving, direct conversation about, hey, you've told me this stuff for the last two years, last three years, last five years, he's drinking again, David and I made a plan, here's the situation, if he puts his hands on you and you let me know that, I'm gonna call the police.

• 57:56Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 57:56Dr. John Delony?

  And she might call you and let you know because she can't stomach calling the police.

• 58:01Speaker 04

  Uh huh.

• 58:02Dr. John Delony?

  But thank God she's got you.

• 58:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 58:06Dr. John Delony?

  And you'll do the dirty work for her. Cause that's what love looks like sometimes.

• 58:14Dr. John Delony?

  And you'll also take all the blowback that comes from having called the police.

• 58:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, that sounds like a good, a good plan.

• 58:23Dr. John Delony?

  None of, and let me, hear me say this, none of this will feel good.

• 58:28Speaker 04

  No.

• 58:30Dr. John Delony?

  Other than her clear eyed knowing, I love you this much, when nobody else surrounds you, not even your husband loves you like this, I'm gonna love you enough to say, I'm gonna prioritize your safety and your kid's safety over you liking me, over our friendship, over everything. I love you that much.

• 58:47Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 58:49Dr. John Delony?

  And I'll just say, I've had that conversation, I can't even tell you how many times I've had that conversation, and I can't remember a time in my mind when it's come back

• 58:59Dr. John Delony?

  in an awful way.

• 59:01Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 59:02Dr. John Delony?

  Not, not two, three, four, five years later.

• 59:06Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 59:08Speaker 04

  Like, you'll think me later, maybe?

• 59:10Dr. John Delony?

  Don't ever say those words, because then you sound like the parent who's like hitting their kid, and they're like, this is for you. Like, don't say that.

• 59:17Speaker 04

  Never like actually say it to their bud.

• 59:20Dr. John Delony?

  But I'm saying, like, I've, I've walked alongside young people who had to get put in psychiatric institutions, and I've met with their families, and they were not happy. And I've received their phone calls two, three, four years later.

• 59:35Dr. John Delony?

  When they get new jobs, when they have their first kid, when they get married, and I, I'm sure there's folks out there that, if you say my name, they hate me, hate me, like, I hate that guy. Great, that's fine.

• 59:47Dr. John Delony?

  But I, I know I went to bed with the intent of keeping people I care for safe.

• 59:53Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 59:55Speaker 04

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 59:56Dr. John Delony?

  And also Christina, you have to reconcile, she's a grown adult, and if she doesn't want your help,

• 1:00:05Dr. John Delony?

  short of violence, right? If he talks to her in an ugly way, or he's, like, talks to his kids in an ugly way, or whatever, she doesn't want your input, it may be that you choose to distance yourself from that friendship. Cause I, cause I, I can't sit here and drink the poison with you, and it's, and it's affecting me as well.

• 1:00:26Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:00:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, but, you know, John, like, we do wanna, like, we don't wanna shut her out completely when it comes to that, like, if she had a, you know, hard night.

• 1:00:36Dr. John Delony?

  Of course.

• 1:00:37Speaker 03

  Because he was just really, really nasty, and she needs somebody to talk to, right? So, that's, that's what it's been up to this point, is verbal. And, you know, we obviously like, even like to help them now, however we can, before it gets to a physical point.

• 1:00:57Dr. John Delony?

  Right.

• 1:00:58Speaker 03

  And we're not really sure, like, how to handle that either, because, again, like, he kinda hides all of this. And if, we don't know, like, what would happen if we even confronted him on his language, or, you know, just his, his behavior at home.

• 1:01:16Dr. John Delony?

  I mean, that's a, that's a tough.

• 1:01:18Speaker 03

  I feel like we're cornering him, you know?

• 1:01:20Dr. John Delony?

  Well, and, yeah, and it's a, it's a, that's a tough, tough place to be, because I've also been in numerous situations where it was, there was two sides to that story.

• 1:01:29Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 1:01:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, that's very true.

• 1:01:32Dr. John Delony?

  And so it,

• 1:01:35Dr. John Delony?

  if you don't have a relationship with him.

• 1:01:36Speaker 03

  She's not, not, but, you know.

• 1:01:38Dr. John Delony?

  I, yeah.

• 1:01:39Speaker 03

  She's not.

• 1:01:40Dr. John Delony?

  No, I, I have an, I have an, my impulse is I'm gonna believe her, that's always my impulse.

• 1:01:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, for sure.

• 1:01:46Dr. John Delony?

  I'm also not just gonna run roughshod over people until I've sat down and had a conversation with them.

• 1:01:52Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 1:01:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:01:54Dr. John Delony?

  And yeah, if he finds out she's telling other people stuff, whether it's true or not true, yeah, that will 100% cause problems in the house, no question about it.

• 1:02:01Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 1:02:02Speaker 03

  He, that's happened a few times, and we've gotten his, well, you know, again, it's coming from his wife, but his reaction, and obviously it really sets him off.

• 1:02:11Dr. John Delony?

  Sure.

• 1:02:12Speaker 03

  Um, but, he won't, he still won't reach out to anybody.

• 1:02:18Dr. John Delony?

  Sure.

• 1:02:18Speaker 03

  Like, he's not remorseful, it seems.

• 1:02:20Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah. So, I mean, I, if you don't really have a relation, neither of y'all really have a relationship with him, so, that, that's not really an entry point, unless it's calling the police. Um, your entry point is with her, and letting her know, here's how we're gonna love you, here's how we're gonna support you, and here's the, here is the, here's how far we'll go, here's how, how well we can love you. And we can't make you walk this path, but we will tell you, we're gonna call the police, if, if we know he's hurting you. And we're gonna tell you, we don't, we don't believe this is how people in a loving relationship talk to each other, but I can't make you leave the house. If you ever want to, here's, here's where, here's where you come, here's

• 1:03:01Dr. John Delony?

  how long you can stay, and here's how we'll support you and your kids. And there is, there is a place where you come up with, this is the best we can do. And if she is an adult, doesn't want any further intervention, it's very difficult for you to insert yourself into that situation without causing all sorts of collateral damage. And that's when I always want people to be careful, there's always other sides to a conversation, there's always different interpretations, yada, yada, yada, it just gets messier, messier, and messier the further you go. And I only know this because I've done it over and over and over and over and over again, for decades. So, here's what we can do, here's what we're prepared to do, here's what we won't tolerate, and here's what we will ask you to do, but we can't make you. And that's when you feel both empowered to put everything down, be

• 1:03:46Dr. John Delony?

  clear with each other, be direct, and powerless. Like, there's only so far our influence can go. Um, and that's heartbreaking. Thanks for the call, thanks for being a couple who loves your neighbor well. And it really wants a pregnant woman and her kids to be safe. Um, that's noble, and we need more people out like y'all two out in the world. We'll be right back.

• 1:04:12Dr. John Delony?

  All right, you've heard me talking about it for a month, and it's official, my brand new book, Building the Marriage You Want, is available for preorder. Picture me, sitting at the table with you and your spouse, helping you both take the next right step in your marriage. That's what this book is, me sitting at the table with you both, walking you through what to do in your marriage. I get into all of it, why marriage is so hard in the 21st century, why I think marriage still matters, and I'll give you a playbook for the stuff that trips most couples up, communication, conflict, sex, money, being married with kids, all of it. Nothing is off the table. If you like this show, you're gonna love this book. Preorder Building the Marriage You Want today for $24.99 and get over $100

• 1:04:57Dr. John Delony?

  in preorder bonus items. Go to JohnDeloney.com.

• 1:05:02Dr. John Delony?

  All right, Kelly, something awesome happened. What is it?

• 1:05:05Speaker 05

  All right, this is from Kyle and Maya in Orlando, Florida. She says, hi, John and team, we met in college, and the first time she saw me, she actually called dibs to her friends. We started dating that summer, but when life, when real life hit, everything blew up. We couldn't communicate, express emotions, set boundaries, or navigate conflict, so we broke up. After several months apart, we ran into each other, and against our friends' better judgment, we started dating again. I listened to your show for years, and I introduced her to it. Together, we used your show and knowledge as a guide to co-create the relationship we wanted. You taught us how to work through trauma, express emotion, serve each other, turn pictures into words, and remember that none of this is an excuse. We just got married

• 1:05:47Speaker 05

  at 23, and I can truly say that we owe you so much of our marriage. You helped change our family tree. We hope to shake your hand someday and thank you in person. Until then, thank you from afar. God bless you all. Fun fact, my mother-in-law, Kinley, Kinley, was Sheila and Hank's guide on their recent hiking trip in Colorado.

• 1:06:06Dr. John Delony?

  No way!

• 1:06:07Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:06:09Dr. John Delony?

  That's pretty wild. It's a very small world out there. Yeah, my wife and son went, my son and I are always taking these wild hunting adventures, and my wife was like, I wanna do something like that, but she doesn't like hunting. So, they went on like a trek or something this summer with a group of parents and teens, and they hiked up to the top of Colorado, and were gone for a long time. But, that's awesome. Very cool. That was the nicest email we've gotten in a long time.

• 1:06:34Speaker 05

  Really was.

• 1:06:35Dr. John Delony?

  Man, that was a lot of nice things all in a row. Especially after a

• 1:06:39Speaker 05

  About you.

• 1:06:40Dr. John Delony?

  Tough show. I know, I know. After a tough show. Thank you so much, y'all, and I wish y'all an amazing, awesome 70-year-plus marriage. Love you guys, bye.