Off the Record With Shawn Johnson and Andrew East

❤️ Preorder Building the Marriage You Want today and get $100+ in bonus items. On today’s episode, John talks with Olympic medalist Shawn Johnson and former NFL quarterback Andrew East about marriage, fame and punctuality. Next Steps: Sean Johnson & Anrew East’s podcast Couple Things 💬 Get the free Conflict Game Plan by Dr. John Delony. 📋 Get on the same page before the week begins. Download Dr. John Delony’s free weekly marriage check-in. 🔥 Microhabits for a better marriage. Download the Together app. ❤️Join Dr. John Delony at Money & Marriage Getaway 📞 Ask John a question! Call 844-693-3291 or send us a message. 📚 Building a Non-Anxious Life 📝 Anxiety Test 📚 Own Your Past, Change Your Future ❓ Questions for Humans Conversation Cards 💭 John’s Free Guided Meditation 🤘🏼 The Dr. John Delony Show Merch Episode Chapters: 00:00 Intro Connect With Our Sponsors: Get 10% off your first month of BetterHelp. Go to Capstone Wellness to learn more. Get started today with Churchill Mortgage. Equal Housing Lender. NMLS ID 1591. nmlsconsumeraccess.org Get up to 20% off with code DELONY at Cozy Earth. Get 20% off when you join DeleteMe. Visit Hallow for a 90-day free trial. Visit Helix Sleep for special offers! Explore Poncho Outdoors! Get 25% off your order at Thorne. Visit Zander Insurance or call 1-800-356-4282 for your free instant quote today. Explore More From Ramsey Network: 🎙️ The Ramsey Show 💸 The Ramsey Show Highlights 🍸 Smart Money Happy Hour 💰 George Kamel 📈 EntreLeadership Ramsey Solutions Privacy Policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

• 0:05Speaker 00

  I have this problem with a lot of our harder arguments that we can't get past. Do I fall back to what I know? Or the athlete side that's obsessive where I'm like, no, I'm fixing this.

• 0:16Speaker 01

  All through our careers, we've had a coach. They look at us and they say, this is not good enough. This needs improved. This needs changed.

• 0:23Speaker 02

  The word that keeps popping in my head is honesty. Do you tell the truth? Everything just changed in this room when you said that.

• 0:37Speaker 02

  What up? Welcome to Off the Record with John and guests.

• 0:45Speaker 02

  Dude, this episode kind of maybe transformed the show. I have my good friends, Shawn Johnson, the Olympic medalist. She won the Navy SEAL show. She won Dancing with the Stars. And her husband, who's a great friend of mine, Andrew East, former NFL player, who I think should have been the other winner in the Navy SEAL show, but we'll leave that to the internets. But here's the thing. This started out as an interview and it ended up a couples coaching session. They brought a lot of heaviness from their own marriage and they were super vulnerable, super open. If you want to see more of this, we've been toying with having actual live couples come in and to a new studio and where I sit down with them for an hour and we go through their challenges.

• 1:30Speaker 02

  If you want to see more of that, write into the show, click the link in the show notes or just leave comments underneath this episode. Check it out. Me and my friends, Shawn and Andrew.

• 1:42Speaker 02

  I want to start with a conversation I heard you guys having on your show. And it was fantastic. There's this research with the Gottmans that there's two types of problems. There's solvable and there's perpetual in a marriage. And I remember hearing that and being like, oh, this is awesome. This is fantastic. And then I was really disheartened when they were like perpetual problems are 69 to 70% of all problems. Meaning in your marriage, this thing that y'all are fighting about will be solved never. And so trying to solve this is not the place to go.

• 2:16Speaker 00

  I know exactly which episode you listened to.

• 2:18Speaker 02

  Well, I listened to the one after that. So I'm interested because the way y'all were dancing around it was like, oh, this is still there. I love it.

• 2:25Speaker 00

  It will forever be there.

• 2:27Speaker 02

  So talk to me about perpetual and solvable problems in the, in the East household. And like maybe an example of a perpetual problem. I have a bunch in my house.

• 2:40Speaker 01

  Here's what I love about marriage. I feel like marriage.

• 2:43Speaker 02

  Such like a.

• 2:44Speaker 01

  To quote.

• 2:46Speaker 02

  Such a Jew.

• 2:49Speaker 01

  To quote John Mellencamp, marriage sometimes can hurt so good. And we have had many confrontations, many discussions where uh, something gets brought to light and you're like, okay, well, how are we going to work through this? And I have one perspective and you have another. And delightfully, we have compromised much in our marriage. And I used to have dreadlocks. I used to wear a Mexican poncho, have one outfit in my closet. I've come a long way.

• 3:20Speaker 02

  Look at you. I know dude.

• 3:22Speaker 01

  I have an outfit on and shoes.

• 3:24Speaker 02

  You've got the, the Bargatze John Crist like kicking right now, man.

• 3:29Speaker 00

  He says all that as you're getting your MBA from Vanderbilt. So like, I mean.

• 3:33Speaker 01

  But you have refined me in amazing ways because we've compromised. But there have been several things where for our 10 years of marriage and 13 years of knowing each other, uh, they have been left unresolved. And it's funny because I look at some of these issues and I'll bring up a specific here shortly. And I think, I think, I feel like this is a great quality about myself. And I actually feel like this is something that Shawn fell in love with in the early days. And now it has been such a cause of friction. And specifically for us, go ahead, go ahead.

• 4:08Speaker 00

  No, no, I would say we have done a very good job. We've worked really, really hard. I would say 99.9% of our problems are solvable.

• 4:17Speaker 02

  Really?

• 4:17Speaker 01

  And no, 30% are according to Dr. John Deloney.

• 4:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:24Speaker 00

  I, I would argue ours are pretty, we're doing a pretty good job.

• 4:27Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 4:27Speaker 00

  We're both pretty good at like brushing things off and be like, I'm so sorry. You know, I can see both sides of it. I can see everything. We've gotten good at that.

• 4:38Speaker 01

  You're good at that?

• 4:39Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 4:41Speaker 00

  Excuse me.

• 4:42Speaker 02

  I have found you to be pretty good at hanging on to things, but that's totally, you're not my wife, so I'll let you speak to that.

• 4:48Speaker 00

  Great, great. But there are a couple of things where.

• 4:51Speaker 02

  Okay, but how much of that is, how much of that is both of y'all are perform, I mean, like, like um, former professional athletes? There's, there's a part of, I have a job to do and I have to be able to shed like extraneous things. I can't, I can't solve this problem. I can't solve this. I can't solve this. I can control this. How much of that training comes into like?

• 5:14Speaker 00

  A lot of it.

• 5:15Speaker 02

  I can't change this, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna go. Does that make sense?

• 5:19Speaker 00

  Yes. I feel like, oh my gosh, I'm gonna rabbit hole myself into feeling like crazy person. I have this problem with exactly what you just asked, with a lot of our harder arguments that we can't get past. Cause I find myself at a crossroads of, do I fall back to what I know? Which is that elite athlete mentality of, to a certain extent, like can't change it, can't deal with it, compartmentalized, don't need you, don't, I'm gonna go do it. It's fine.

• 5:49Speaker 00

  Or the athlete side that's obsessive where I'm like, no, I'm fixing this. We will fix this because it's a problem and we're gonna get, like, I, I have to, I try to balance those scales so much and I never know which way to go. Neither are probably the best because they're both very bull headish. But yeah, it's, I don't know.

• 6:11Speaker 01

  It's amazing hearing, hearing her say that and all that's going in her head. And I'm just sitting there thinking, I want to watch college football. I just want to have a good time. Hey, we're trying to work through some stuff. It's good. It's honestly been so good. But, but I do think, I do think as athletes, we have benefited from a lot of uncomfortable constructive criticism. And all through our careers, we've had a coach.

• 6:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:40Speaker 01

  Who has intimately known us. And it's like, they look at us and they say, this is not good enough. This needs improved. This needs changed. And I, I do think we've benefited from uh, being able to absorb that without having a visceral or immediate reaction of, ah, no, that's not right. You're wrong. I'm doing it right. You know, it's like, we, we kind of do, I think, have a buffer of, from that reaction, which has been really good. So when we give feedback to each other, it's, it's usually met kindly. And we also have this understanding that if I'm the one giving feedback, it is a responsibility on my part to make sure that that is as true and accurate as possible.

• 7:23Speaker 01

  Cause if I'm coming in with selfish motives of, I want to watch college football Saturday. So Shawn, can you do all the kid stuff? Can you do all the meal stuff? Can you do all the house stuff? Can you do all the work stuff? If I'm like, you know, trying to angle my feedback to serve my own desires as opposed to the teams, that's not going to work out well. And that's an irresponsibility to the feedback. So I think both on the giving and receiving side, we've benefited from that. But there has been a topic that has been left unresolved that I do feel like is a, I've, I've had, I have a new perspective on recently. And, and it is the fact that I frankly, as you know, from this morning, am not always punctual. And I, I.

• 8:03Speaker 02

  Shut up, brother.

• 8:04Speaker 01

  I value punctuality. I like being on time. I strive to be on time. I work for it. And I look at the day ahead and I'm like, okay, how can we make sure all this stuff happens? But I also value quality time. And if this podcast goes for seven hours instead of three, because it needs to, because you know, you're in tears or she's in tears and hey, let's just let this simmer a little longer, then the realization that has continued to surface is Shawn with her, I would say militant like discipline.

• 8:34Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 8:35Speaker 01

  Which is a beautiful superpower of hers.

• 8:39Speaker 01

  She has no forgiveness for, we're running late.

• 8:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:42Speaker 01

  We're running late. And I'm like, I have no forgiveness for, you're being rude because we need to finish this conversation because this deserves it, this quality time moment. And so this realization.

• 8:52Speaker 02

  I'm pointing to my producer because yes, yes.

• 8:55Speaker 00

  There's some, there's some major aspects within this.

• 8:58Speaker 01

  I, let me finish. Let me finish first.

• 9:01Speaker 02

  This is exactly what happened.

• 9:02Speaker 01

  Because this is, this is how this has resolved so far. I, it was super helpful for me to explicitly put on the table, the fact that Shawn, you value uh, and commit more to the punctuality of things than to the quality time of things. And I want you to know that I prioritize and value the quality time of things more than the punctuality. And I am sorry, it is a trade off. There is a cost to each of ours. But here's what it is. And I guess it's a perpetual problem because I don't want to, I don't really want to budge on my thing.

• 9:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:37Speaker 01

  And I know she doesn't want to budge on hers. They're both good. So we're a team and you have the punctuality side. I have the quality time and let's, let's dance on this, baby.

• 9:49Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 9:49Speaker 01

  I'm so excited and nervous and nervous.

• 9:52Speaker 00

  Okay. So we have not approached this well. We have not figured out the solvable solution to this because yes, we both come from, I come from very militant background. You come from very flexible background. I agree with 100% of what he just said.

• 10:07Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 10:09Speaker 00

  The little tiny details in here that we're missing are, as we go down this route of, I don't like being late, I like having an expectation, I like being able to feel like there's a controllable um, variable where I'm like, when are you going to be home? You know, is it at one or is it at five?

• 10:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:34Speaker 00

  The compromise that I have tried to pitch is if you are having the most wonderful intimate conversation, that is not lasting an hour, but it's lasting seven, could you pause at some point and send a little text?

• 10:52Speaker 01

  Hold on real quick.

• 10:53Speaker 00

  No.

• 10:54Speaker 01

  Oh, did I just interrupt the whole vibe?

• 10:59Speaker 00

  At some point, and can you text and say, "I'm not gonna make it home by one, it'll be six." To which, we have found out that that is a very not okay solution, and one that we can't do. And that-

• 11:21Speaker 02

  You're using such a hard "we" on that.

• 11:23Speaker 00

  That has led to some unfortunate situations-

• 11:28Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 11:29Speaker 00

  Where maybe I was told, "Let's meet at this coffee shop at noon." And I will be sitting there for a very long period of time.

• 11:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:40Speaker 00

  And I will be calling with no answer. And I'll be texting with no answer. And at some point, I will just have to leave.

• 11:48Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 11:49Speaker 01

  I apologize.

• 11:51Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 11:52Speaker 01

  Do you forgive me for when I've hurt you?

• 11:53Speaker 00

  Yes. And so, we have gone in this circle for 13 years.

• 11:59Speaker 02

  I wish, I wish y'all could feel the room right in the second. It's so good, so good.

• 12:04Speaker 00

  We have gone in this circle-

• 12:05Speaker 02

  No, this is so good.

• 12:06Speaker 00

  For 13 years. And I don't think this is a right solution, but most recently, the podcast. What had happened was, we, we talk a lot about like reps. How if we're approaching it the same exact way every time and it's not working, let's try something new. So I tried something new. And I said, "How about we both operate with our separate schedules? I will be militant, I will arrive by myself on time, and you can arrive at your leisure."

• 12:41Speaker 00

  And that was also met with, "Well, we're a team." And I'm like, "Well, we're not on this." So-

• 12:49Speaker 02

  That's actually the thing that changed my house.

• 12:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:52Speaker 02

  Was when my wife said, "Well, I'll, I'll tell you how it changed in my house, but it, it got to the thing beneath that thing."

• 13:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:00Speaker 02

  If that makes sense.

• 13:01Speaker 00

  I have wanted to call you about this so many times, so I'm glad we're talking about it.

• 13:04Speaker 02

  Here's what happened in my house.

• 13:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:06Speaker 02

  Is, number one, it was opening for me to hear, "Oh, if I roll in nine minutes late, if I roll in 15, 30 minutes late, that, that is felt as this guy thinks his time is more valuable than mine, as a, as a measure of disrespect." That was a shock to me, like, "Oh, no, no, no, no, no." Like, right, I never want to be disrespectful, ever, ever. And it was a shock to her to find out, if I'm walking down the hallway and somebody stops and says, "Hey, I need to tell you about what's going on with my grandma." For me to leave that is the most disrespectful thing in the world. And so, for her, she was like, "Oh, gosh, I didn't, I didn't realize that." And so, getting to a place of neither of us are trying to like, hurt each other.

• 13:48Speaker 01

  Right.

• 13:49Speaker 02

  And my thing's not, it's like, I feel this is disrespectful. And she's like, "This is disrespectful." The thing that changed for me is when she said, "When I walk into church late, and I, everybody looks back at me, that makes me feel small and like, that I'm the center of attention and I don't like that." And then, as a, I was like, "Oh, I don't ever want you to feel that." And so, that hasn't always healed my, hasn't fixed me being on time all the time. But the first morning, she said, "So, I'm gonna start driving myself. If I'm gonna leave at this time, and if you're ready to rock and roll, it's awesome." And the first time she took off without me, they just left. And I got, I was so pissed. I was like, and so then I kind of slow-played it.

• 14:33Speaker 02

  And then I got there and I was, I was met with a smile, like, "Hey, good morning." And I was like, "No, no, no, no, you left me." And, but it was like, no, you, I did exactly what I said I was gonna do. And that, that helped me get better at it. Because it wasn't about the time thing, it was about, I don't want my wife to feel that way. But that's the thing that's changed it. But it was the thing beneath, like, not like schedules versus this, it was that thing beneath the thing.

• 14:55Speaker 01

  Wait, it helped because now you have a system of, hey, she's gonna drive herself and you'll be separate? Or it motivated you to, you wanna ride?

• 15:02Speaker 02

  So we have a new system.

• 15:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:04Speaker 02

  And that is, "I'll go, I'll go." And we also have the thing beneath the system, which is, "Oh, it's not just she wants to be on time because she's a do-gooder. She wants to be on time because she doesn't want people to look at her and feel exposed and feel small and feel like people think she's disrespecting them. I don't ever want my wife to feel that way, right? So, if, if some guy was like disrespecting her, I'd get between the two of them, right? So in this situation, it feels like the same thing for me."

• 15:32Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 15:33Speaker 00

  Mine has always been, and I've tried to explain it to him, of like, the militant side was drilled into me at such a young age with gymnastics of, if I showed up late, it was disrespectful to my team.

• 15:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:45Speaker 00

  And to my coaches. And therefore, if that ever happened, I was not allowed back.

• 15:51Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 15:51Speaker 00

  It was such a violating act of like-

• 15:54Speaker 02

  Wired into you.

• 15:54Speaker 00

  Yes, to where, we talk about like, you, you, one of your favorite things is like humility. How, I, I hate putting myself on a pedestal of any kind. And my worst fear is thinking that I'm positioning myself to be better than in any capacity. And if I show up late, my brain tells me

• 16:20Speaker 00

  that I'm, I'm making myself look like I'm better than everyone. I don't have to adhere to social, you know?

• 16:29Speaker 02

  So you're above the rules.

• 16:30Speaker 00

  Yeah. And then, the other side of it is exactly what like your wife was saying. When, when Andrew's locked in on quality time with someone, in my mind, it's like husband and wife is priority, right?

• 16:45Speaker 02

  So that, that was gonna be my question for you, yeah. Like, does it ever get to a point where you have to decide, the person in front of me's feelings are more important than my wife's feelings? Because that's, that's, that's the, for me, that's where it always distills all the way down to. Who's more important right now?

• 17:03Speaker 01

  So, for context-

• 17:04Speaker 02

  And I wrestle with that.

• 17:05Speaker 01

  Sean and I, if we have 10 commitments in a day, for five days a week, we'll, we'll do all 10 together. And then maybe, one day a week, we'll do nine of the 10 together. We are together all day, every day. And if it wasn't like that, my life would be in shambles.

• 17:23Speaker 02

  Why?

• 17:24Speaker 01

  Because, because I would be constantly fumbling this prioritization. And frankly, I don't know if I trust myself that much. I, and I, yes, she's my priority, but I am also severely irresponsible in so many ways. In a sense where you're like, "Man, I don't know." It tactically, like if we're actually giving a real case scenario, I don't know how I would do if, if that was a more frequent occurrence of, "Am I choosing this or am I choosing my wife?" And it's like, I want to choose my wife, but man, I, I am so glad that we're together all the time, that that's not often a situation.

• 17:58Speaker 02

  Well, but the, the-

• 17:59Speaker 01

  Do you agree with that?

• 18:00Speaker 02

  I think the challenge for you is, your reputation in the city is, "I can count on that guy." That's like, that's behind closed doors, that's how people talk about you. And so, it's not that it's like in shambles. It's not that it's like you have this, like, "I would just be, you know what?" It's like, no, no, no, like, that is the pervasive, when you bring up Andrew, it's like, "Anytime, anywhere, that guy will show up and help you out." Like, that's just the thing. And so, I don't, I, it's balancing, to me, it feels like it's balancing that I will be there.

• 18:38Speaker 02

  And I want you there.

• 18:40Speaker 00

  I have never foundationally thought that you were choosing someone over our marriage. So, I want to like-

• 18:49Speaker 02

  So, no, my wife never thinks that either.

• 18:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:51Speaker 02

  It's a thing I, I wrestle with.

• 18:53Speaker 00

  But it's, it, I do believe in those moments, it 100% is prioritized of, I,

• 19:05Speaker 00

  this person in front of me deserves my undivided attention. My wife is there and is never going anywhere and like, our marriage is never going anywhere. Like, that's such a constant and a solid belief in our, in our marriage, that I don't think it even crosses your mind to say, "I need to let my wife know." Because things are so rock solid. And it's so important for you to invest into the person in front of you, but-

• 19:33Speaker 01

  And I also know we'll be together the rest of the day, you know what I'm saying? Like, we will be together forever and ever. And the rest of our lives.

• 19:42Speaker 00

  But, there's, there's just like other sides to it sometimes, where, can I operate solely, like, on my own with the kids? 100%. But, there's also like a prioritization as your wife, where, say it's dinner. Am I making you dinner? Because like, that's a joy I have in serving you and loving you. And if you've told me you're gonna come home for dinner and I make a plate, and then all of a sudden it's cleared and you get home two hours later and you're like, "You didn't make me dinner?" Not like you would say that in a-

• 20:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:16Speaker 00

  But, you feel loved when I do stuff like that. It's like missing bids to each other.

• 20:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:22Speaker 00

  That all of a sudden become, you, you feel slighted. And I think, what I like is to implement systems to make sure nobody ever feels slighted.

• 20:33Speaker 01

  It's such a fascinating topic for me because it's so loaded with multiple different components in the sense that this is how my dad lived life.

• 20:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:44Speaker 01

  And I'm modeling that. And I love the way my dad lived life. And so many people were blessed, by the way, he interacted with them. And he would get a phone call. And he'd show up to someone's courthouse thing. He was a built houses and so whatever subcontractor. And he'd show up and help them with whatever they needed. And then.

• 21:05Speaker 00

  Someone in prison would call him and he'd be there. And all of a sudden, he'd hire them. And like, he was everyone's guy.

• 21:11Speaker 01

  So fluid with his schedule on the one hand. And he would wake up like 4:00 AM to go hang out with a friend and then go to Bible study. And so it's like, this is what my, the role of my father was. And I aspire to be that way in so many ways. It's like, when you say, I'm dependable, that comes off very much as a compliment. Thank you. But also like a burden and obligation. Where it's like, yeah, I want to be that guy. I hope I am that guy. I have insecurities around being that guy. And so like, there's that part of it personally as well. And then there's like the, when she says, well, I'll just drive separately. To me, that hurts so bad. Because we talk about, we've spent a lot of time trying to figure

• 21:53Speaker 01

  out our values as a family. And togetherness is one thing that like, family vacations, are we dropping the kids off from school? Are we doing sports? It's all, well, how can we engineer this to be as together as possible? And so if she says, I'm leaving without you, I'm like, soul ripped from my, like, no.

• 22:13Speaker 02

  How do you navigate the difference between togetherness and enmeshment, though?

• 22:20Speaker 01

  I don't know. Are we enmeshed? I mean, I.

• 22:23Speaker 02

  What I would say is that, or not a clinical term, but more codependent, like, I need you to be okay, so that I can be okay. And if you're not okay, then I'm not okay. That means it's your job to be okay, because I need to be okay.

• 22:37Speaker 01

  Oh, dude, this is.

• 22:39Speaker 02

  Does that make sense?

• 22:39Speaker 01

  We did a lot of counseling around that. We did a 16 week course around our marriage. After we had our third kid, we went to this biblical marriage counseling and it.

• 22:48Speaker 00

  It was incredible.

• 22:48Speaker 01

  It changed our lives and it changed our marriage. The biggest thing I had to fight through was, he, the counselor looked at me, said, you need to learn how to be healthily dependent, or healthily detached, or healthily attached, however you wanna, however you wanna like, phrase that. And I was like, what do you mean, healthily detached from my wife? I thought she was the one person who could define and morph my identity. I thought that's what her role was. It's, no one else can do that, but she's my wife. So yeah, I have given her the authority to, we're codependent. That's what it is. And I still struggle with,

• 23:32Speaker 01

  what is my role as a spouse, dude? It's such a, I want to go about it responsibly and how it was designed to go. But I struggle with, what is, what does it mean to be healthily attached to my wife? Frick.

• 23:48Speaker 00

  I do think we struggle with that, though, because we spend so much time together. Like, our tone affects how we feel. And it can alter the trajectory of the day.

• 24:00Speaker 02

  Like your speaking tone?

• 24:02Speaker 00

  And just demeanor, everything. Yeah. I mean, if he's having a bad day, it's probably gonna affect me.

• 24:08Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 24:09Speaker 00

  And so I would say, codependent in that sense, yeah, we work on that. I actively have to start, or I actively have to practice a lot. If he's having a bad day, be like, okay, it has nothing to do with me. And I can still have a great day. And I can help him and support him and not be affected by that. But it is difficult.

• 24:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's real difficult, yeah.

• 24:29Speaker 01

  Because on some accounts, it can come off as unempathetic. Or like oblivious, or aloof. You're like, oh, he's having a bad day, that's fine. She's having a bad day, whatever, I'll just continue on. And you're like, I don't want, I want to be so connected with my wife in parallel. And I know that it's not, I don't want to be riding each other's emotions, but I do want to be so in tune with them. And I don't know the line between the two, you know?

• 24:58Speaker 02

  What's your picture of attunement look like? What does that mean? What does that word mean?

• 25:07Speaker 01

  I think about, I can look in your eyes right now, like, okay, how's John doing? And I can get a pretty good picture of like, how's this guy doing? I look at Sean's eyes and I know her so deeply, praise the Lord, that like, if she's off in any way, I like being able to know all the million different signs, the little body language, the little eye twitches, or the way her mouth, like, and just, that to me is attunement, where I, the awareness, it's like, yeah, almost hyper awareness.

• 25:47Speaker 02

  So what I heard her say is, I'm aware, I see it. And I'm gonna choose to feel good in my own skin today. And that feels like it's not attunement.

• 26:01Speaker 01

  What's my role to help her feel good if she's not? What's my role in throwing out the life raft of, hey, you're having a bad day? Let me get down in the bunker with you?

• 26:11Speaker 02

  Has she invited you into the bunker?

• 26:13Speaker 01

  She's my wife. You know what I'm saying? It's a perpetual invitation for that, is how I interpret it.

• 26:19Speaker 02

  Oof.

• 26:23Speaker 00

  This is opening more doors. This is scary. Because you're about to go into our next, our next.

• 26:30Speaker 01

  This is good.

• 26:31Speaker 00

  Perpetual thing that we haven't figured out, which is emotion, the relevancy of emotions.

• 26:44Speaker 02

  What about them?

• 26:45Speaker 00

  So even talking about attunement, and feeling attuned and connected and understanding each other and being too codependent, and it's like, we have also, this might be an irrelevant conversation, might be straying too far. But we try to understand each other so deeply, and we do. Like, I can tell when he's off, and I can tell when something's wrong. But in his brain, and this is maybe what you had to work on more with counseling than I did, because I can see it, and I can feel it, and I can understand it. And I think a lot about emotions. But for Andrew, if he's having a hard day because of something, in his brain, he will tell himself, emotions are fleeting and don't matter. I know this

• 27:30Speaker 00

  will pass, so it doesn't even matter for me to bring it up or acknowledge it. Does that make sense? So as his wife, the like, maybe where we are too codependent, is I can tell something's wrong. And it throws me for a loop, because I'm like, Andrew, I can tell something's wrong with you. Something's bothering you. He's like, no, it's not. Nothing's wrong.

• 27:58Speaker 01

  No, it will be okay. Yeah, maybe I feel.

• 28:00Speaker 00

  You won't even acknowledge that. Like, there's a dip, though. And I'm like, I can literally tell. And then it spirals us to this place where I'm like, well, why wouldn't you even acknowledge something's wrong? Like, I can, I know you well enough to know. And he's like, no, it's not. It's fine. And it won't be until like, days later, he's like, yeah, something actually happened that day and like, bothered me. But like, it didn't matter. Because like, sadness is fleeting. So it's just an emotion. It's not worth stamping of even addressing.

• 28:37Speaker 01

  Let me try to consolidate our, that conversation with the previous one with my perception of what it means to be married. Okay, so like, I do view it as my role as a man, to be resilient. You know what I'm saying? To be more, to be more durable through the emotions. And like, yeah, if she asks me, are you having a tough day? I'll try to say, I'll try to be aware. I don't think about my emotions that much. Like, it's just not top of mind. Like, I feel them, I guess, but I don't know how to put words to it. Like, if she asks me, how you feel, it is a really curveball of a question. Because

• 29:18Speaker 01

  I'm like, I don't even, ah, like, what's, what's the right word for how I feel? Tired? Slash, I don't even want to get into it. It takes effort to think about, and it takes effort to communicate. And then she's like, oh, how, you know, tell me why. And then I'm like, I don't want to do this at all, you know? It's like, it's all, it's still confusing and unintuitive to me. But I do view it as my role as a man to be durable enough, that if she's having a bad day, then I can throw her the life raft and get in the bunker with her. And that way, we're not both treading, like, if I'm, if I'm in a tough spot, and I'm wallowing in that, and she's in a tough spot, and she's wallowing in that, I feel

• 29:58Speaker 01

  like I have failed my role as a man. I just feel like it is my job to be, it's like, yeah, there's pressures and burdens. But dang, I think I can carry them, dude. Let's go. And I got my processes and systems, and I got my God, thank goodness, you know, to help me alleviate those. So let me shoulder as much as I can to take it off of her, so that if she's having a bad day, I can throw her a life raft. And I think, I think when I, when I view a marriage, it's like, yes, she is the one person that can pierce the armor,

• 30:35Speaker 01

  right? And I view that as, it can either be the most crippling thing in the world for me as a man. But thank goodness, thank God, I have this wife, who makes it a superpower instead. And she, despite how we may fumble through it, encourages me in insane ways. And occasionally, she will undermine my identity and really, and you're like, oh, frick, how are we gonna work through this? And it takes years and maybe never gets resolved. But like, if this person, if this person encourages me, like, I'm off to the races.

• 31:19Speaker 01

  I'm unstoppable, baby. Let me, like, let's go. I, you can't, you can't beat that.

• 31:24Speaker 02

  So how does she encourage you? Give me, give me, give me two examples of a way she encourages you. And I'm backing you into a corner here, by the way.

• 31:34Speaker 01

  Oh, man. She.

• 31:37Speaker 02

  Like, if you were to use the word celebrate, what are two ways she celebrates you?

• 31:42Speaker 02

  She knows you enough to know this means something to him.

• 31:48Speaker 01

  I would like to, I'll answer the question by correcting your earlier allusion to humility. And I want to redefine it. Because you are the most, you're the most capable.

• 32:01Speaker 02

  And you're the most avoidant, but keep going.

• 32:03Speaker 00

  Exactly. Oh my god.

• 32:06Speaker 02

  I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take you on. You can't do that. What are two ways she celebrates you?

• 32:11Speaker 00

  So kind.

• 32:11Speaker 01

  In all seriousness.

• 32:12Speaker 00

  Will always turn it around.

• 32:13Speaker 02

  I know, I know. Two ways she celebrates you. Two action steps. She knows you well enough to know he's gonna love this.

• 32:20Speaker 01

  She's amazing and she thinks I'm amazing.

• 32:22Speaker 02

  Nope.

• 32:23Speaker 01

  That's what it is.

• 32:25Speaker 02

  That's hot air balloon, like, what are two ways she celebrates you?

• 32:30Speaker 01

  I think she is legitimately the most incredible person I've met and she's, she'll look at me and say, "Wow babe, you're awesome." And I'm like, "Holy frick, let's go."

• 32:38Speaker 02

  So one of the things she'll, she knows you well enough to know, it's, it's good for Andrew if I stop him every once in a while and just say, "You're the best."

• 32:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:47Speaker 02

  Okay, what's another one?

• 32:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:55Speaker 01

  Similar but different.

• 32:58Speaker 01

  She could do it all.

• 33:01Speaker 01

  And she makes room for me.

• 33:02Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 33:03Speaker 01

  Intentionally. What a kind act of generosity to like,

• 33:09Speaker 01

  include me. You know what I'm saying? And I just, I'm, I grew up middle of five kids. I grew up playing team sports. I like being a part of a team. I like doing stuff with people. I like accomplishing stuff. I like competing. I like building, growing, the whole thing. By golly, I get to do it every day. I freaking love that. That makes me feel celebrated. Like, that makes me wake up every day. This is gonna be a fun day. We're gonna drive down and talk to John Deloney about all our...

• 33:39Speaker 02

  Okay, did you, did you, did you feel the shift when you just said what you just said? Everything just changed in this room when you said that. Did you not feel that?

• 33:51Speaker 01

  I felt it.

• 33:54Speaker 01

  Is it a good way or?

• 33:55Speaker 02

  It's not, it's not, there's no judgment on it. There's no judgment on it. I have a hypothesis, but...

• 34:01Speaker 01

  Talk to me.

• 34:02Speaker 02

  No, you, like, what do you think changed?

• 34:07Speaker 01

  We're in tune. I feel like we're, now we're, now we're, now we're, we can go somewhere.

• 34:13Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 34:13Speaker 01

  Like, what are we gonna do with this? Now we're aligned. There's a softness. There's a humility. There's a, a listening as opposed to a, "I'm attacking my day, you're attacking your, you have your talking points for the show, you have your questions." I think we're all kind of

• 34:30Speaker 01

  in tune.

• 34:31Speaker 02

  I, I heard, tell me if I'm wrong. I heard you say,

• 34:40Speaker 02

  on the scale, there's a less than here. And she invites me in.

• 34:48Speaker 02

  Is that fair?

• 34:52Speaker 01

  That's fair.

• 34:54Speaker 02

  And if I always approach this amazing thing I have called marriage as a,

• 35:01Speaker 02

  "I'm, I'm lucky to even be here." Like, I'm, I'm, I, every day I, I hope she still invites me in. Then there's a, like a natural reaction to say, "When I get in there, I will be the best." Right? And I'm gonna be the best walled up, bro down man ever. The challenge being, I'm gonna bring my version of what that is to this thing. Not, ask her, "What does she need from this thing?" Does that make sense?

• 35:34Speaker 01

  Right.

• 35:35Speaker 02

  So, so, like, like you get, you are like a deep snapper, right? And you get thrown in and all three center, the two centers and one of the guards who played like just third string, they're all hurt. And they're like, "Bro, you gotta hike the ball." And you're like, "Sweet." And they're like, "Dude, we're just, we're just, we're just gonna run shotgun formation." And you're like, and you're ripping them as though it's a field goal every time. That would be your version of, "I'm gonna hike the ball the way I wanna hike it. I'll get it to you." And they're like, "Dude, we don't, we need, we need this hike." And you're like, "Uh-uh. I'm the best deep snapper in the game." And you're ripped. Does that make sense? And so it's bringing, "I'm gonna bring my thing to this" instead of, "Hey, what's the way I can love you?"

• 36:21Speaker 02

  And if you're, if, if you, I, I think a cool, like Instagrammy thing that I love is, a great marriage is both people thinking they're getting the better end of the deal. I like that, like that, I like that sentiment.

• 36:35Speaker 02

  But that's different than,

• 36:39Speaker 02

  "Am I gonna be good enough today to get invited? Please, please, please, please, please, please, please." A deficiency place. Does that make sense? Instead of we're both at the table. Is that fair?

• 36:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:50Speaker 00

  Not, I don't want, I don't wanna like,

• 36:55Speaker 00

  harp on something. But I have to harp on it because it's something we've talked about since the day I met him. Is

• 37:06Speaker 00

  your humility turns to, "I'm not good enough."

• 37:13Speaker 00

  In so many walks of your life. And as your wife, I tell him this so many times. I'm like, "You gotta snap out of it because you're freaking amazing." You're, but like, a lot of ti, a lot of times his insecurities will come up and it's like, "I'm not a good friend." But yet, even just like you said, your reputation within the city is insane.

• 37:34Speaker 02

  And by the way, not just city. That's to, like,

• 37:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:37Speaker 02

  To the guys that have your cell phone number.

• 37:39Speaker 00

  Yeah. But you have 8,000 contacts.

• 37:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. Too many people have your cell number, but...

• 37:45Speaker 00

  To insecurities growing up of like, "I was never as good as my brothers." To,

• 37:54Speaker 00

  "I love that you believe so much in me, but you believe so much in me because sometimes you, you pose it like you don't believe enough in yourself."

• 38:05Speaker 00

  Like, and even on the silly show Special Forces, you couldn't even, you couldn't hear what all the four SEALs saw, which was like, "Bro, you crushed the leadership role. Why aren't you owning it?" And you're like, "No, I didn't. No, I didn't. I didn't do anything. They did it." And as your wife, even talking about the emotion side of like, when I can tell something's wrong, there's no weakness in you acknowledging the fact that something bothered you.

• 38:40Speaker 00

  But

• 38:42Speaker 00

  to see you struggling with something as a wife and you not being able to like acknowledge and be like, "This bothered me today." But I'm, of course you're strong enough to get through it, but also we're stronger together to help you. I don't know. I'm like rambling and losing thoughts. I just,

• 39:01Speaker 00

  you don't understand how amazing you are.

• 39:05Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 39:05Speaker 00

  It's like you don't feel like, yeah.

• 39:12Speaker 02

  So vulnerable. Dude, I, I get, I wish I could feel this room right now. Because I know you want to crawl under the table right now.

• 39:22Speaker 01

  What's, okay. Back to the definition of humility. Because I think one thing I admire from Sean and I've learned from Sean is, you are the most capable, able person I know. And you said that you don't like, you don't like standing on the podium, being in the spotlight. I disagree with the fact. You totally own the podium and spotlight when you know that you've worked and earned that to be there. You know what I'm saying? So it's like, it's a, we all have a role to play. We all have skills and talents and gifts to contribute. And own those. And you own yours. And like, yeah, you don't wanna be isolated or feel like you're above the rules. No, not at all. That's, that's not what it is. But it's like, what is my, what can I own in this relationship?

• 40:06Speaker 01

  And I feel like, one,

• 40:10Speaker 01

  I don't wanna be self-deprecating. I also don't wanna be like, look, if anything, I probably skew overconfident, like, in so many ways. You know what I'm saying? I'm like this, I'll walk into a, I'll, you put me on a pitcher's mound on an MLB game, I'll be like, "Yeah, I'm gonna freaking rock this." Here we go. I'm, I'm ready. Like, put me in any situation, I could probably tackle it.

• 40:33Speaker 02

  Except, except for sitting with a buddy and your wife saying like, "Hey." Right?

• 40:38Speaker 01

  Can I pressure test my, my process for processing emotions? Like, how I think about processing emotions?

• 40:45Speaker 02

  I think you have one, one rule. And that is avoid at all costs.

• 40:49Speaker 02

  Or like a SEAL, like, like, acknowledge and keep moving.

• 40:54Speaker 01

  No, the, the end goal...

• 40:55Speaker 00

  It doesn't matter.

• 40:56Speaker 01

  No, the end goal...

• 40:57Speaker 00

  That's what you say to me. Like, I'll be like, "Are you sad?" And she's like, "It doesn't matter."

• 41:01Speaker 02

  Go ahead. Go, go with your framework. This is gonna be great.

• 41:04Speaker 01

  The end goal, let's just call it tranquility or peace. It's like, I don't know, to use a picture, like, still water.

• 41:09Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 41:10Speaker 01

  Okay? And maybe that's, I got into stoicism at one point in my life and I do think this concept of Christian stoicism would be really fascinating to, to explore, but

• 41:21Speaker 02

  Y'all, y'all should come to my house and we'll bring Arthur over and we'll get Ryan over.

• 41:25Speaker 01

  I can't wait, dude.

• 41:28Speaker 02

  We'll nap it out. That'll be fun.

• 41:29Speaker 01

  My, my thought is, and how I wanna sequence is, thing happens, feel the thing,

• 41:39Speaker 01

  process, step away from how I'm feeling and analyze that almost as like a third party audience member. And then pretty much have like this internal dialogue of, "Oh, okay, well, what's, like, is there, how can I attribute that feeling of anger or sadness or is, is it their fault or is it my fault? Is there something I need to bring up? Is there something I felt violated?" And then it's like, "Oh no, that's a me problem. Okay, sweet." I just, I, I felt anger because they showed up late and dang it, you know what? I show up late all the time, so I'll forgive them in my mind and move on. And that whole sequence happens with as short of a half-life as possible. And so it's like, you can, you try to just flow through that as quick as possible.

• 42:23Speaker 01

  And like, I don't wanna be holding on to things for days and be like, "So angry at this guy." It's like, how can we?

• 42:29Speaker 02

  Think of yourself as a, as a, one of those space heaters, like in a gym, like when it's cold outside. And you flip it on. And electricity comes through this thing. It goes through the whole thing and then it makes its way back to the wall. Right? It closes that circuit.

• 42:45Speaker 02

  The part that is hard, especially for men to understand, is...

• 42:51Speaker 02

  Emotions and feelings are not just a cognitive process. It's an embodied experience. And so the whole room heats up when that plug goes in the wall. And your kids feel it and your wife feels it and your business partners feel it. Even if you're processing it and moving on, there's still this projected heat blast. And so letting everybody in the room know, hey, it's hot in here and that's on me. And I'm, I'm gonna get from here to there. And here's a way you could love me. Here's a way, if you could go unplug that, that'd be awesome, actually. I don't, I, I should be able to do it because I'm the, I'm the man, but it'd be awesome if you could unplug it. But everybody in the room sweating now, right? Even though it's all happening inside that box. Does that make sense?

• 43:30Speaker 01

  I like that analogy.

• 43:31Speaker 00

  Even if it's like the smallest, shortest half-life ever, like we said at the very beginning, we are attuned well enough that I can sense sadness or I can sense anger or I can sense joy. All of it, I can see it in your eyes, I can see it in your face, I can see it in your body.

• 43:46Speaker 02

  So give him an action plan. Use the, we'll use the sentence, you could love me by, or what you could love me is?

• 43:56Speaker 00

  A way you could love me is by just voicing in a sentence,

• 44:04Speaker 00

  this happened today and it made me feel sad. In my mind, that half-life doesn't have, like, that could be the end of it and you could be joyful from that moment forward. To me, that doesn't make you a sad guy. That doesn't like build something bigger.

• 44:20Speaker 02

  What would it make him? What kind of guy?

• 44:24Speaker 02

  I have a word in my head and I don't know if I'm right.

• 44:26Speaker 00

  I mean, the first, the cheesy part of it is like, that would make you a strong person to me. Because in my mind, it's reflective, aware, communicative. I don't know. Because for me, it's like, for you, for you, for me to see something and in my head be like, I'm learning you as your wife. Like, I want to, I want to be learning you better and better every day for the rest of our eternity. Right? And in my mind, I have to have data points to check and file and be like, oh yeah, that is how you process sadness. That is how you process joy. That is, if I can say to you, hey babe, did something happen today? And you're like, nah, doesn't matter.

• 45:11Speaker 00

  To my mind, I'm like, I can't, I can't be collecting data to say, oh, this is a good thing to do when he's sad.

• 45:18Speaker 02

  I got, I got another word that's,

• 45:21Speaker 00

  What is it?

• 45:22Speaker 02

  I don't want to put stuff on y'all, especially publicly. What were you about to say?

• 45:26Speaker 00

  I want you to.

• 45:26Speaker 01

  This is, this is so hard because I want to respond to what she wants. And I'm like, in some ways, it should be gonna try to course her correct back to what I want.

• 45:36Speaker 00

  But I feel like you, even as you speak, you, you want to be unshakable in the sense of like, you forgive so quickly, you can get over emotions so quickly that are disruptive. I see that and I think it's a beautiful quality. But the acknowledgement to me and my brain to hear you say like,

• 45:59Speaker 00

  could, could I be someone else and be shattered by what happened today? Yeah, but it didn't, you know, but this bothered me or this made me happy.

• 46:10Speaker 01

  I hear you and I will strive to do that. I, my gut reaction is, I would love to do that if it's like a in the moment thing. If it's something from the past that almost reminds me from, you ever like heard therapists say, what trauma do you have from your childhood? And I'm like, I don't know, I don't have any, you know? I, I, I'm kind of, I kind of view life as trotting around like Winnie the Pooh. You know, oh, hey, hey, you're giggling, you're having a good time. That's, that's kind of, that's kind of how I'm trying to work through it.

• 46:38Speaker 02

  Must be awesome being six foot four, like a professional athlete.

• 46:41Speaker 01

  But, but you're like, okay, what trauma do I have from my childhood? None? And they're like, no, what trauma do you, you have some trauma, what is it? And it's like, I don't have any trauma. And then all of a sudden now I'm like trying to reframe something. Actually, no, that, I don't want to do that. So it's like, if, if it's a, something happened in the past, I view it as, we don't need to dig up bones, that's water under the bridge, I'm, I'm here.

• 46:59Speaker 00

  What do you define as a past?

• 47:01Speaker 02

  Oh gosh.

• 47:02Speaker 00

  Because this is, this is where we, where you're like, it happened an hour ago, it doesn't matter.

• 47:08Speaker 02

  Okay, can I tell you the word?

• 47:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:10Speaker 02

  I don't want to throw anything, I don't want to throw a grenade in your marriage.

• 47:12Speaker 00

  No.

• 47:13Speaker 02

  Okay? You have to promise me y'all are good, you're good?

• 47:16Speaker 00

  We are good.

• 47:17Speaker 02

  Here's the word I'm hearing in my head and y'all can tell me if this is wrong. I'm gonna put this on you.

• 47:21Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 47:22Speaker 02

  If there's a link between, and by the way, this interview went nowhere.

• 47:26Speaker 00

  I love that.

• 47:29Speaker 01

  Sorry.

• 47:31Speaker 02

  Kelly's like, we're good. So, okay.

• 47:35Speaker 02

  If I was to back all the way up and see the conversation about perpetual and solvable, about being late, about being on time, about, I want to do this nice thing for you. And I, I know this matters, but then you don't even call or whatever. All the way to what we just talked about now. The word that keeps popping in my head is honesty.

• 47:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:56Speaker 02

  Integrity. Do you tell the truth?

• 48:02Speaker 02

  Does that make sense?

• 48:05Speaker 02

  If you say you're gonna be there at six, are you there at six? Because that, to me, integrity, the integer, right? The whole is a bigger, like that to me is one of those in, in bedrock. Like, this is who we are gonna be. We're gonna be people who tell each other the truth, which is different than, ah, I'm just late. Does that make sense? But that also is, you doing okay? Yeah, I'm fine.

• 48:32Speaker 02

  You, you don't trust me enough to tell me the truth, that you're not okay. You're like, no, you just trust me that you don't need to know the truth, right? Does that make sense? Am I wrong here?

• 48:40Speaker 00

  No.

• 48:42Speaker 02

  Well, because it's, there's a leap to say, I can't, I'm, I'm, I'm unable to trust him. But if that's the truth, these things are proxies to, I struggle, when you say you're gonna be home at six, I just don't know anymore. And so I have to make a world where, maybe, maybe not. Or, are you doing okay? I'm fine. I have to make a world where, does that make sense?

• 49:07Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yes. Only with the caveat of like, it's not existential. Does that make sense?

• 49:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I think you're supernatural in that. Because I get, like, I'm getting existential right this second. Does that make sense?

• 49:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I, I agree. I do think there is like, yes, that's even a conversation we've had with the, the late arguments of, I want to be able to count on,

• 49:37Speaker 00

  I value knowing in my head. And we've had this conversation before, they're like, if I call, you know that I'm not calling to waste time, I'm calling because I need my husband to answer. And when I have those inconsistencies sometimes, that makes like a security side of my, my mind feel weird. And I think that's what like the data points of like,

• 50:01Speaker 00

  the more I can trust myself to know you as a husband, it makes, that sounds selfish to say, it makes me feel better that I'm doing what I should do as a wife. Does that make sense? No?

• 50:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:16Speaker 00

  There, I, I,

• 50:19Speaker 02

  I need a roadmap from you and I can't love you well if I don't know where you are.

• 50:23Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I hear so, I hear and see in such beautiful ways, like, you support me and like you do such a phenomenal job. My inputs aren't telling me I'm doing a phenomenal job. Because when I see like the disturbances and I can't help you, I'm like, I, I don't know how to love you better.

• 50:46Speaker 00

  Without the feedback.

• 50:47Speaker 02

  Does that make sense? How's that hit you?

• 50:50Speaker 01

  As a low IQ guy, I'm gonna have to re-listen to this episode. Y'all, I honestly, I think like, I'm still processing the last two minutes of conversation in a way that I, I think it makes sense, but I'll have to double check.

• 51:02Speaker 02

  Let me try this way.

• 51:05Speaker 02

  Do you remember back, were you, I imagine you went to the offensive team meetings?

• 51:10Speaker 01

  Uh, special teams.

• 51:11Speaker 02

  Special teams, okay.

• 51:14Speaker 02

  Do you remember when, and you may have always, I don't know the trajectory of your career, but if they called a defensive meeting, offensive meeting, special teams meetings? And then there was, we're running through, uh, we're going first team and we're running through, and then we're running through drills. Then we have a two-minute drill and then we're gonna run the drill where we gotta get a field goal off, but we don't have a timeout, right? So as soon as the third down is over, we gotta get everybody on and off, right?

• 51:42Speaker 01

  Love this, yeah.

• 51:44Speaker 02

  But you also remember that time when they're like, hey, new first team? And you start to jog and they're like, no, you, you stay over here.

• 51:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:54Speaker 02

  I'm just gonna tell this group this information all by themselves. That sense of,

• 52:01Speaker 02

  you know what I mean?

• 52:02Speaker 01

  Like being an outsider or less than or?

• 52:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, we're on the team, but that person, they get more, they get different information than I get.

• 52:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're saying that's what I'm doing to her.

• 52:13Speaker 02

  What I've heard her say is, I've got, I got it. You stay on the sideline, I'll take care of it. And she's saying, I thought we were on the same team. Fair? And I want us to win this game. And so I guess you can be the coach, it's like, yeah, I'm not having secrets between first team and second team. Everybody get in this room, we're gonna have this meeting here, we're gonna talk about how we're gonna go win this game. And maybe somebody from second team will be like, hey, coach, this guy keeps busting in every time. Can we put another back over here? And they're like, okay, maybe, maybe, probably not, probably not, but maybe. But it's the sense of inclusion, does that make sense?

• 52:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:49Speaker 02

  But the, and here's the, I think the hardest thing for you is, I think you're trying to love a thousand miles an hour. Does that make sense?

• 52:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:58Speaker 02

  I think the hardest behavior for me to change personally is when I think I'm loving well. My wife is like, I see how hard you're trying to love me in this way. I just want you to love me in this way. I'm like, no, no, no, but if I love you like this, it's gonna be incredible. And she's like, I know, but I just want this. I'm like, I know, but, does that make sense? That's that enough conversation we've had.

• 53:19Speaker 00

  This is a fascinating conversation. Cause I have more thoughts, I can keep going, man.

• 53:24Speaker 01

  I just feel like the team meeting, if I'm calling her in, would be, it'd be like 20 minutes of silence. And I'd, you know, put all the X's and O's out there and be like, I actually, I don't know what.

• 53:37Speaker 01

  Are you that emotionally aware? Cause here's, I, I, I received the honesty.

• 53:41Speaker 02

  All the motions for me are just lights on the dashboard. And the men in my life who have taken it to, I'm gonna go buy a can of black spray paint and spray paint over it and just drive. I will fill this car up, I'll listen for it, I'm gonna drive. And it's going, my wife's in the passenger seat, be like, hey, this doesn't drive? And I'm like, we're going. And that I, that is masculine, that that is the most powerful, that's the best way I can love my wife. I've seen that implode every time. I haven't seen that be stable. Either it implodes, you can see that dude's heart attack from space, cause he spends his whole life trying to hold it. Or that guy's got all these side addictions. Or she finally says, I'm gonna get my own car and drive.

• 54:24Speaker 02

  The, being able to see, hey, there's a light on the dashboard.

• 54:29Speaker 01

  And I'm gonna take care of it.

• 54:32Speaker 02

  But I'm also gonna acknowledge, I gotta go get the car checked.

• 54:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:35Speaker 02

  Right? Or, I'm gonna, I'm gonna handle it, or, I'm sad about this thing. You know what, you could really love me if, or what you could love me right now is. And that's inviting to that team meeting, does that make sense? And can I flip the script completely?

• 54:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:53Speaker 02

  Has he learned over a decade that you're not really safe with his emotions?

• 54:59Speaker 01

  Did you just hear the people in the other room?

• 55:03Speaker 02

  Cause there's also, I also know, and again, I'm not putting it on, I know men who have learned over time.

• 55:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:12Speaker 02

  Hey, I'm scared about this, it's not a big deal. Hey dude, I'm kinda nervous about, shut up, you're fine. And they learn over time, oh, that's not, that's not a safe place to go with those. So I'll just, I'll corral them and either drink them away, or just pray them away, or flex them, whatever the way is. Is there, is there a fairness there, or maybe no?

• 55:35Speaker 00

  Probably.

• 55:36Speaker 02

  What do you think when you hear that?

• 55:40Speaker 01

  It makes me wanna step in and speak on behalf of my wife.

• 55:43Speaker 02

  I see, here you go. Don't rescue her, just be, I mean, be on, but is there a sense of that?

• 55:48Speaker 01

  I feel like.

• 55:49Speaker 00

  I have a thought too, yeah.

• 55:51Speaker 01

  One, I feel like the honesty of, the honesty is interesting, cause it's more complicated in the moment than it is. I, I feel like it's also being honest to say, we're gonna be okay. And I think what Sean and I do, and what I felt from you, is like this reassurance that it will be okay. And it might not be right now, but like, it's honest to say that we will, and we can look at each other. And I feel, I don't feel like I've not been invited to share my emotions, I just feel like sometimes we'll just like lock eyes and be like,

• 56:20Speaker 01

  it's gonna be okay.

• 56:23Speaker 00

  I would, I hear that and I would say probably yes.

• 56:26Speaker 02

  Really?

• 56:27Speaker 00

  And the way my brain processes it, going, historically speaking, is my biggest frustration, probably number one frustration in my husband, is that he does not think he's as amazing as I believe.

• 56:41Speaker 01

  I just think self-deprecation is hilarious. I think self-deprecation is the funniest thing.

• 56:45Speaker 00

  No, it goes way past self-deprecation. Because there are so many historical moments in your life that you speak about, that I truly think are embedded in your heart, where you don't feel like you are a headliner, a frontrunner, you're just a support person. My job's here just to support, you're the fixer of your family, you're the, you're always the person people come to, to vent to. You're all, like, you're, you've, you have this part of you. Even with like the NFL, you're like, I was just lucky, I wasn't actually an NFL player. And with Vanderbilt, you're like, I didn't actually deserve that spot, it was just, by God's grace, it was handed to me.

• 57:27Speaker 00

  And I, you got an MBA from Vanderbilt and you'll self-deprecate, and there's a serious tone to it, whether you laugh at it or not, where you're like, well, I just skirted by, I, you know, I didn't get good grades, I failed. And I'm like, you can't get an MBA by failing, and you.

• 57:43Speaker 02

  Or Dr. East now.

• 57:45Speaker 00

  You will make off comments of like, I'm a bad friend, all these things. And I would say that not having safe feelings resonates because I find that so ridiculously false. That every time you say it, I'm like, how could you ever speak about my husband that way? Like, it's so, that's so false. And with each one that brings up, I do believe that there is some belief behind your words and yourself of there, that maybe I brush all of that off way too flippantly.

• 58:24Speaker 00

  But I don't know how to approach it, because to me, I'm like, you are absolutely incredible. I find you, I could not operate. We, we wouldn't have a business, we wouldn't have a home, we wouldn't have a family, if it weren't for you.

• 58:41Speaker 01

  That's my girl right there, you see what I'm saying? That's my girl.

• 58:44Speaker 00

  But do you believe it? And then that's where I'm like, I probably make his feelings feel unsafe, because I just brush all of that off. I'm like, that's ridiculous.

• 58:54Speaker 01

  Honestly, that's pretty much how emotional sharing goes. So, yeah, you're like my, yeah, you do a great job of it, celebrating me.

• 59:05Speaker 00

  But I will also say the hard part is, as you have, as we've all seen. You'll say a comment like that of, I don't feel like a good friend. And I'll say, but why? And then he'll be like, we're here at the John Deloney Show. You are fricking awesome.

• 59:25Speaker 02

  Right, right, right.

• 59:26Speaker 00

  And I'm like, no.

• 59:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:28Speaker 00

  Why do you feel that way? And that, like, you don't wanna address that stuff, so that's where I say.

• 59:33Speaker 02

  So here's my, here's my marriage challenge, ready? Number one, never use the word why. Cause why is, is felt as an accusation. It's inherently a judgmental question. Why do this instead of this? Versus, tell me about why you feel like not a good friend. Can you tell me one situation where you weren't a good friend? And that's just, that's an invitation.

• 1:00:01Speaker 01

  That's the right way to use why?

• 1:00:02Speaker 02

  I, I, like, that's one of the things in like Counseling 101, they drill in your head, never ask why. Or Hostess Negotiation 101, never ask the word why. Because it puts somebody, now we're playing defense versus invitation. Or, I hear you say that and it breaks my heart. Tell me more about what you mean by that. Which is an invitation to say, I just heard and felt your emotions and that made me sad, cause I know this guy differently than you know this guy. Unless it pisses you off, cause you think it's like a move, right?

• 1:00:34Speaker 00

  No, it's never a move. It's not a move.

• 1:00:41Speaker 01

  I feel bad for the people listening to this show. I feel, honestly, we have benefited so much from you as a friend, dude.

• 1:00:47Speaker 02

  No, don't destroy.

• 1:00:50Speaker 02

  Listen, why do you feel bad for people listening to the show?

• 1:00:53Speaker 01

  Because we get the benefit of, of interacting with you.

• 1:00:57Speaker 02

  No dude, they're getting the blessing of y'all being honest. What's, what's a, what's a takeaway from this? Luke, stuff, talk about your incredible book.

• 1:01:07Speaker 01

  The idea of honesty, we gotta talk about your book, dude.

• 1:01:09Speaker 02

  We'll talk about that later.

• 1:01:10Speaker 01

  I'm hyped for that. This idea of honesty.

• 1:01:14Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:01:16Speaker 01

  Is interesting. And the timing of it, I think I've learned about. So just, it matters to her to know all the little bumps in the road that I had that day. So, almost being more intentional with logging those things myself, as opposed to just like being a goldfish and, you know, ah, this doesn't matter to me, but it might matter to Sean to know that this person, I don't know, like, to share the little things.

• 1:01:51Speaker 00

  I would love that.

• 1:01:53Speaker 01

  Thank you for enlightening us with that.

• 1:01:57Speaker 02

  I didn't do anything, she just, she, that, that, for, folks, that's a roadmap. She just gave it to you. She gave you a GPS pin on the map towards this world y'all are building together, which is, I would love the little things.

• 1:02:12Speaker 01

  I'll try not just, I don't wanna be dramatic though, so if he's like, oh, you wouldn't believe what this person said to me today, you know?

• 1:02:18Speaker 02

  And she will promise, she will promise you, I'm putting words in your mouth, she'll promise you. I'm experiencing this as pretty dramatic. She'll let you know.

• 1:02:28Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:02:29Speaker 02

  And now you can be unfettered.

• 1:02:30Speaker 01

  I appreciate that.

• 1:02:32Speaker 02

  Don't appreciate it for me, she's the one there. I don't live by y'all anymore, cause y'all abandoned me.

• 1:02:38Speaker 01

  The idea of, I'm supporting her in the way I want her to be supported? And not supporting her in the way that she wants to be supported, was helpful?

• 1:02:48Speaker 02

  That right there will change people's sex lives, will change their money conversations, will change their tiny things, day in and day out celebrations. Which is, most people default to, I love it when my wife walks through the kitchen and slaps me in the butt, so she's surely gonna love that. Right? And we try to love each other the ways that we wanna be loved, instead of saying, doing the hard work. And y'all talked about this a lot on your show, like, people change so much over time. That means I'm constantly in a state of knowing, how can I love you this month? How can I, what are you, what are you into in the bedroom or not in the bed? Like, what are you into? How can I continue to show up in a way that you feel seen and known?

• 1:03:31Speaker 02

  So that you can show up, and am I clear with you, how you can show up for me? That becomes a, just a game changer of all game changers, I think.

• 1:03:40Speaker 01

  That's a good reminder. And third, I, I'm, I'm leaving grateful with the fact that our life is, whether by design or not, we live in a way that I don't have to say, oh, I'm choosing this conversation over my wife, you know? That happens so very rarely, that if, if we were in any other context, I feel like there would be a lot of mess that I would have to clean up, given my faults that I have, so those are my takeaways.

• 1:04:14Speaker 00

  But it's okay. I know you're not choosing other people over me.

• 1:04:20Speaker 01

  But effectively.

• 1:04:21Speaker 00

  You, I don't want, this, this is going past the podcast. I don't want you to feel like you're on a golf course and I said I'll be home by one, I have to be home by one, because I need to go have more time with my wife. It's like, you can stay out there till, for five days. I think in my mind, it's just like having that trust of, you'll let me know. I'm so excited you're having so much fun. Like, it brings me joy to serve you and serve that and support that. It also helps to know like, should I wait up for you? Would, would you love that? Sorry we turned this into a counseling session.

• 1:05:06Speaker 02

  No, dude.

• 1:05:09Speaker 01

  I got better today, we got better today. Thank you.

• 1:05:12Speaker 00

  We're so excited to hear about.

• 1:05:14Speaker 01

  Glad to call you a friend.