The Two Intruders | Irma Palasics killers sentenced

Irma Palasics's family hoped her killers would die in prison. Now Joseph Vekony and Steve Fabriczy have been sentenced, and it seems likely at least one of them will. Elizabeth Byrne and James Vyver return to the pod to reveal the length of the sentences Justice Mossop delivered and describe the intergenerational effects the crime has had on Irma and Gregor Palasics's family. You can catch up on earlier episode of The Case Of The Two Intruders here https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/the-case-of/the-two-intruders/106846586 If you have any questions for Liz, James or Stocky you’d like answered in future episodes, please email [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. The Case Of is the follow-up to the hit podcast Mushroom Case Daily, and all episodes of that show will remain available in the back catalogue of The Case Of.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Politicians don't usually get assassinated in Australia. I say usually because in the mid 1990s, an Australian politician became the first MP to be assassinated while still in the job. John Newman, the MP for Cabramatta, was gunned down in the driveway of his home. Cabramatta was having a big problem with heroin and drug gangs at that exact moment. The Assassins podcast brings you the full story on YouTube, ABC Listen and wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:29Speaker 01

  ABC Listen, podcasts, radio, news, music and more.

• 0:44Stephen Stockwell?

  Two men who killed Irma Palasics in a brutal home invasion in 1999 have been sentenced. And as well as explaining how long they will spend in prison, we'll have all the details to explain how the judge made that decision. I'm Stephen Stockwell, this is the case of the two intruders.

• 1:02Speaker 03

  Irma Palazik's brutal murder rocked her family and has haunted them for 24 long years.

• 1:08Speaker 04

  This wasn't the average robbery.

• 1:10Speaker 05

  The brutality of the attack shocked the community.

• 1:13Speaker 06

  They were virtually tortured that night.

• 1:16Speaker 07

  Violently assaulted before the two men ransacked the premises and stole cash and jewellery.

• 1:21Speaker 04

  My grandparents were beaten and my grandmother was left to die on the lounge room floor.

• 1:28Stephen Stockwell?

  We're stepping back from the case of Alan Jones today to bring you an update in the case of the two intruders. In 1999, two men broke into the home of Irma and Gregor Palasics. While searching for money hidden in the kitchen, they tied up the couple and beat them so badly that Irma died. For decades, this crime went unsolved until a DNA breakthrough and a police sting involving a fake criminal network led to the arrest of Steve Fabrizi and Joseph Ficconi. That led to this trial where those two men were found guilty of killing Irma and now they have been sentenced. There throughout all of this, following the trial, bringing us updates on the case of the two intruders has been veteran ABC Court reporter Elizabeth Byrne. Welcome back to the case of Liz.

• 2:11Speaker 03

  Thanks, Stocky.

• 2:12Stephen Stockwell?

  And as well as Elizabeth, we're also very lucky to have ABC investigative reporter James Vyver joining us as well. James, welcome back.

• 2:19Speaker 05

  Thanks, Stocky.

• 2:20Stephen Stockwell?

  It has taken two and a half decades to get to this point. The family of Irma had been waiting while Steve Fabrizi and Joseph Ficconi had been living their lives. Liz, how long will they be spending in prison?

• 2:33Speaker 03

  Well, substantial periods. The judge has sentenced Joseph Ficconi to a total of 20 years jail with a non-parole period of 12 years. And Steve Fabrizi has been given 16 and a half years jail with a non-parole period of 11 years. Joseph Ficconi's sentence is a tad longer because remember, he wasn't just charged over this incident when Irma Palazik was killed. He was also charged and found guilty of an attack on Irma at an earlier burglary in 1998.

• 3:12Stephen Stockwell?

  Hmm, yeah. I'm looking forward to unpacking the different elements of all this because as well as that, you've mentioned Liz, there's also burglary charges as well that have been included in that sentence. It has taken us a long time to get to this point though, as well as I've mentioned. Liz, why, why did it take so long to track down Joseph Ficconi and Steve Fabrizi and hold them accountable for these crimes?

• 3:34Speaker 03

  Well, as we know, the critical evidence was the DNA found in the Palasics fridge on a milk bottle and on a water container. And although they had these two discreet bits of DNA, they were never able to put a name to them until of course, technology improved. Eventually, Steve Fabrizi had been in jail for something else. His DNA had been collected and eventually a match popped up. And so they were able to identify him, but of course it wasn't enough to charge him and run a trial. They, they had to find out what else had gone on.

• 4:16Speaker 03

  So they set up an elaborate undercover operation. In fact, a Mr. Big operation where a person is drawn in over months into a fictitious criminal group, which he was. And eventually they told him that his DNA had turned up in a murder investigation. And he made some partial confessions to them, but more importantly, he also identified Joseph Ficconi as the other person who was there. And from there, the, the investigation took off. There were further undercover operations. The DNA of both men was tested again and, and then we arrived at the result where they

• 5:00Speaker 03

  were tried and found guilty of killing Irma Palazik.

• 5:04Stephen Stockwell?

  Hmm, the, the story is kind of incredible, the, the way that the police tracked these men down, the, the work done over decades to get the result that we're talking about here in, in this episode. And if you're just joining us for the case of the two intruders, we'll pop a link to the entire series in the episode description so you can go back and follow from the beginning. If you've already listened, you can refresh yourself and remember how we got to this point, but the detail of the, the DNA in particular is kind of wild that they were prepared enough to get that result and store that in a way that meant they could use it in this trial. And the Mr. Big as well, Liz, the details of that that we go through in the case of the two intruders were just kind of, you know, something out of a movie.

• 5:44Stephen Stockwell?

  James, how much interest was there in court for this kind of final stage?

• 5:50Speaker 05

  It was the fullest I've seen the public gallery at any point during this entire thing. At times there were about 30 of the family there, really big family group, John Makita, Elizabeth Makita, all of the relatives and descendants, grandchildren, cousins, you know, in-laws that have all kind of become part of the family were all there watching on. Friends of the family too. We had Clifton Frost, who was that forensics officer who collected the DNA, that fateful evidence all the way back in 1999, along with so much else as well. Of course, the police were there, Craig Marriott, the lead investigator on the, the Monday when we had the sentencing hearing.

• 6:33Speaker 05

  Bob Peters, the original investigating officer was there. A member of the jury was there on both days. There were law students, of course, a big media contingent. So it was pretty packed.

• 6:45Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah. And the way you describe that as well, talking through the generations of police that have been involved in this and that were coming to, to see this resolution just points to the impact this has had over such a long time. In deciding the sentence that these two men got, Justice Moser has listened to Irma's family, a big part of the sentencing process is the victim impact statements where a family talks through the impact that a crime has had on them. And then the judge considers that when handing down his sentence. I mean, we know this had such a deep impact on them, James. What did they tell the court?

• 7:17Speaker 05

  This part of the day on, on the Monday of last week when we had the sentencing hearing was really full on, as you might imagine. Now, there was a range of impact statements and we'll go through them. Probably the two most impactful and the most powerful were John Makita. So this is Irma's grandson, who as we've described through the series has, has long been the advocate for keeping this cold case going. The Who Killed Irma campaign that just ran for years and years and years. So once we sort of had got the, the housekeeping out of the way, he slowly walked up to the stand, you know, you could hear a pin drop. It was really intense.

• 7:57Speaker 05

  I started taking notes at this point as, you know, diligently sort of doing the court reporting. And I looked up at one point and I realised that John Makita was looking straight at these two convicted men, like he was looking, almost as though he was looking deep into their soul. He had obviously, you know, gathered himself and decided what he wanted to say. And he was delivering it not to the court, but to these two men. So that was a really full on moment. In terms of what he said, there was so much power to it, Stocky, and he talked about things like, you know, the family's life having changed forever, them living a life sentence of grief. At this point, he was, he was holding back tears he gathered himself.

• 8:42Speaker 05

  He talked about the impact on Gregor, who of course, whilst had some really serious injuries, he did survive. He said that I watched my grandfather slowly lose the will to live, I watched him drink himself into oblivion, the unbearable weight of what happened to his wife. And then he sort of went on to talk about the intergenerational trauma. He, he said that, you know, these offenders have, had lived as though they were free. They had had birthdays and Christmases and they've had the chance to watch their family grow, not something that was given to Irma. And that it reached into the lives of children who weren't even born. So, you know, the trauma that John has lived with impacted his children that weren't even born at the

• 9:23Speaker 05

  time of the incident. Elizabeth Makita also took the stand, so this is Irma's daughter, John's mother. If you're sort of following along, obviously that Makita is Elizabeth's married name. She's quite an outgoing person. She's very gregarious and is always willing to have a chat. She was very quiet and her voice was very small. She'd obviously really dug deep to get on the stand and, and sort of, again, deliver what she wanted to say to these two men. She sat down, she gathered herself, she checked that everyone could hear her, she took a deep breath and then she went for it. She described the acts as atrocious

• 10:05Speaker 05

  and inhuman. She said that the trauma had affected who she was. She had pleaded to Justice Mossop to not give these two men any leniency. She says, "When I look at them, I don't see remorse, I only see darkness." She also said, "This will continue to torture me beyond the grave." And then she wrapped. And so that was, again, really full on, really intense. The court was so, so quiet, even though it was packed.

• 10:33Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, it just points to the impact that this crime has had on not just, you know, Irma and Gregor, her husband, but the entire family and how, how wide that has spread. I mean, there were other family members as well who had the opportunity to speak. Was there anything else that stood out to you, James?

• 10:52Speaker 05

  Yes, there was. It was almost that these victim impact statements were given in a couple of dimensions. One was this, you know, really powerful, full-on emotion and this long period at which these emotions have been felt. But there was also, you know, almost as tellingly, the practical effect that it had had on this family's lives. Every single one of them who either wrote a statement or got up there and read their statements, or it was read in the court, all talked about every single night. They 'd check every single door, they'd check the car door, they'd check the windows. That even right now, today, they do, they do that. There was also John Makita Senior, so that's

• 11:37Speaker 05

  Elizabeth's husband, John Makita Junior's father, he talked about the way in which it affects his sleep and his mental health because of that. He said, "Some days I hope I don't wake up, some days I'm grateful that I have." There was one other person that stood out. His statement was, was read in court, and that was Warren Makita. Now, people might remember that he, for a time, particularly early on in the investigation, was in the frame. There were some links because he had knowledge of the secret compartment where this $30,000 that was stolen on, on that night was kept, because he had worked on the kitchen, he'd worked for the family business, and he'd worked on the kitchen when the family

• 12:19Speaker 05

  moved from Red Hill to McKellar to the two suburbs in Canberra. He talked about the impact of the investigation and this implied guilt that the investigation had on him and his links with the family, and that, as you can imagine, created friction in the family. And I think that's putting it lightly. It made him very angry, he's had to deal with the anger. He says, "I still have nightmares about what happened. I'm angry. I spent 23 years being treated as a suspect rather than a grandson. Even today, I carry that anger with me." So, it's affected everyone in the family differently, but it's affected them profoundly.

• 12:55Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, absolutely. And something that we talk a lot about on the case of is that, you know, victims can kind of get lost a little bit in the judicial process. It's a deliberately very sanitised approach and it's supposed to be kind of unemotional. I mean, Liz, did you, in listening to some of these, learn a bit more about the, the impact of this crime?

• 13:14Speaker 03

  Well, having spoken to the family quite a bit in recent weeks, I know they've been preparing these statements. It's been a very tense time for them. The anticipation has been quite something. It's interesting to note that both Elizabeth Makita and her sister Irma came to the sentencing hearing, but they didn't come to the sentencing because they were so stressed about it. The one thing I would say about, about the victim impact statements is, it left no one in any doubt about the long, dark shadow that a crime like this leaves.

• 13:58Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, yeah, very, very powerful statements read in, in court over the last week. Then we have, after these victim impact statements, the submissions from both of the parties. So you have the prosecution talking about the reasons that someone should have a harsher sentence, you have the defence barristers arguing the reasons that the sentence should be commuted for any reason here or there. Liz, what points did Joseph Vacconi's barrister put forward for, you know, him to, to not receive, you know, the harshest penalty that he could?

• 14:27Speaker 03

  Well, the thing we were interested to hear about with Joseph Vacconi is just how sick he is. We know that he had liver cancer, or has liver cancer, and is undergoing treatment. So, this time around, we did learn what his life expectancy is, and that's about 12 months. And his lawyer asked that this and some other health issues that he's been having, for instance, falls and things like that in the jail, be taken into account in sentencing. His lawyer acknowledged that there could be no findings of remorse or

• 15:06Speaker 03

  acceptance of guilt, which would normally yield a discount of some sort. But he did ask that there might be some leniency recognised, perhaps, in a shorter non-parole period. But of course, he's received quite a long non-parole period. One of the things about Joseph Vacconi's case is that he never made admissions to anything. He's just stuck to the basic narrative that he gave police, never in Canberra. And so that he says, "The only evidence against me is the DNA and Steve Fabrizi's account." And he's made no

• 15:47Speaker 03

  contribution, and not in the way that his co-accused did, in admitting that he was actually there.

• 15:55Stephen Stockwell?

  Hmm. Yeah, and I want to talk a bit about Steve Fabrizi as well. He, you know, says he was at the house in Canberra. What points did his barrister, Sky Jerome, offer to Justice Mossop?

• 16:06Speaker 03

  Well, in some ways, this was a more interesting set of submissions. One of the things raised by Vacconi's lawyer was that in sentencing, there should be some care taken, because no one can say who did what in the house. So, Sky Jerome, who was Steve Fabrizi's lawyer, has said this as well, that the absence of evidence about his role in the house means that some caution should be taken in sentencing. She said that the court should remember that he did plead guilty to the burglary and to being there, even

• 16:48Speaker 03

  though he always denied any involvement in the violence. One thing Sky Jerome did raise is, she said that her client was entitled to reduce sentence because of the help he gave police. She said he'd lived a crime-free life for a long time, and it was only because of him that the police were able to identify Joseph Vacconi. So she asked for some leniency there.

• 17:15Stephen Stockwell?

  Liz, you mentioned there that Steve Fabrizi has kind of lived a crime-free life, but, I mean, when he was talking to police, he was talking to police through what he thought was a criminal syndicate, that was a fake criminal syndicate set up by police. And also, his DNA ended up in the national DNA database after he'd had been involved in some other criminality as well, had it not?

• 17:37Speaker 03

  Yes, that's right. And we know that he was jailed after an incident in 2008, when he was found guilty of conspiring to steal a truckload of cigarettes. He went to jail for that, and that is, of course, how his DNA turned up on the national database, because he was jailed for an appropriate length of time. Sky Jerome was really referring to the years after that and before this all came to light. But the irony of him then

• 18:17Speaker 03

  taking up with this fictitious criminal syndicate wasn't lost on anyone, and especially the judge, who said that he'd been actively participating in what he thought was a criminal syndicate. So it was, it was something that was noted by others in the court.

• 18:35Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, I mean, as well as, you know, the, the reaction of Justice Mossop to that, I mean, James, we also have family, we have investigators in the public gallery as, you know, these arguments are being made. How were they taken by, by that group?

• 18:48Speaker 05

  With various levels of incredulity, often humour, exacerbation, you know, we're at the really, sort of, outer limits of, of the legal arguments here, as Liz has just described really well. And so, yeah, the reaction from the gallery at times was, let's say, mixed, stocky.

• 19:11Stephen Stockwell?

  Okay. Very, very diplomatic response, James. Appreciate the, the descriptions of the, of the room and how those arguments were received. And I think we can all interpret how they would have been received in our own way. We do hear all of these arguments from the defence barristers. Then we have the prosecution, who makes their case for why these two men should receive a harsher sentence. James, how did Prosecutor Trent Hickey respond?

• 19:35Speaker 05

  Well, perhaps picking up on, shall we say, the tone of that mixed reaction from the public gallery. This was the most animated, I think, Liz, and anyone in the room, you and I had seen him, he- Clearly had a lot to work with. He was in full flow in, he was very unequivocal. He was definitive. It felt as though to me, he thought he had a lot of open goals in which to put the ball, legally speaking, based on what he had heard from the other side of the bar table. That's my lay interpretation of it. He talked a lot about the character of the two men, the lack of remorse that they had shown from the perception of the prosecution, beginning chronologically, started with Vicconi and the 1998 incident and describing

• 20:19Speaker 05

  that night. And your people will remember, Irma was out getting lemons from her lemon tree. She liked to put a slice of lemon in her tea. He said, you know, upon being disturbed during that burglary, instead of running away, he chose to assault Irma really violently. It's a little old lady, you know, then in sort of around 70 years of age, instead of choosing to run away, he chose to punch her in the face. And then when she was on the ground, punch her again. So he said that that should form, you know, that was serious. He talked about that the, they had, the two men had made a pact in 1999 to steal from the Polacix and that goes to that sort of joint criminal enterprise that we heard about. Trent Hickey's response went for quite a while. We had the lunch break in the middle.

• 21:04Speaker 05

  And then we sort of reached the crescendo of what he had to say. This is around the sort of the key charge of manslaughter. And he said that manslaughter ranges legally speaking, from a joke gone wrong to just short of murder. And that this instance of manslaughter falls in the latter. He said, they didn't care about the occupants. They just wanted the money. He also spent a lot of time talking about the seriousness, or rather recapping the seriousness of Irma and Gregor's injuries, particularly of course, given that we're talking about manslaughter, Irma's injuries, how many they were, how serious they were, how violent the assaults must have been to cause them. He also talked about Irma's death being degrading, that she was at home in her night dress with her

• 21:49Speaker 05

  husband nearby, who was unable to rescue her. And that, yeah, that definitely really hung in the courtroom. That was right at the end towards, or at least towards the end of Trent Hickey's arguments in this sentencing hearing.

• 22:02Stephen Stockwell?

  Liz, what stuck out to you from Trent Hickey's, you know, final submissions, you know, the final case that he's making to Justice Mosse for a, for a harsh sentence for these two men?

• 22:12Speaker 03

  One thing that stuck out was that he really tackled this whole idea that Fabrizi had been helping the police and that he should have a lower sentence because of it. He said he'd been helping himself by revealing the details. And of course, some of those details were revealed to an undercover officer. But his lawyer had argued that in the police interviews at the jail after his arrest, he had given further details. And Trent Hickey said that was self-serving, basically. The other thing that was interesting is, remember how the others have talked about, there should be a question over who did, who did what

• 22:57Speaker 03

  in the house? And that that question can't be resolved. The, the position of the prosecution was that it doesn't matter who did what in the house. They were jointly responsible. And so both should have this maximum sentence that Trent Hickey asked for.

• 23:16Speaker 05

  And it's important to remember the mechanics of why we don't know exactly what happened in the house. The only two men that know exactly what happened in the house are the those convicted of what happened in the house. Irma has died on that evening. Gregor has since died. They were the only other two human beings in that house on the night. And so the only reason that we don't know the exact details of who did what is because the two men have not, have chosen not to say so.

• 23:40Stephen Stockwell?

  Yep. Yeah, absolutely. We then came back for the sentence on Friday last week. Liz, as you mentioned, Joseph Vicconi sentenced to 20 years and Steve Fabrizi for 16 and a half years. What did Justice Mosse have to say when, when sentencing them for that time?

• 23:57Speaker 03

  Well, Justice Mosse endorsed the jury's findings, of course. He found each was equally responsible for the crime. So who did what in the house was irrelevant, that their acts had caused Irma's death, that going in with cable ties, duct tape and a weapon was a dangerous act and revealed the planning that must have taken place beforehand. He said that the motive was greed. He also said one interesting thing, this was raised by Trent Hickey as well. He said that Vicconi must have had knowledge of the 1997 burglary, the first of the three,

• 24:38Speaker 03

  where $102,000 cash was stolen from under the couple's house. Now, no one was home, so no one was hurt or anything, but the money was taken. And then Vicconi showed up in 1998 with someone else. And that's when he assaulted Irma and he's been found guilty of, of that assault. Now, no one's suggesting he was involved in the 1997 burglary. Nobody knows who did that. But the judge said that he must have had knowledge of the success of it. And that made it worth travelling from Melbourne to Canberra to carry out a burglary on this particular couple. So he's attributed some significance to that first burglary,

• 25:23Speaker 03

  which, which was interesting in the scope of the case. He also rejected suggestions that Fabrizi had been crime free, talking about him being actively participating in what he thought was a criminal syndicate. He also rejected the prosecution's call for a maximum sentence. So he said, it didn't really meet the threshold for that, for manslaughter. But he did reflect on the gravity of the crime, you know, carried out on an elderly couple in their own home, minding their own business. And, and he reflected also on what it's done to the family, the devastating impact it's had on the family.

• 26:08Speaker 05

  Yeah. The other thing that stuck with me on that is Justice Mosse described them as life-defining events and that the impact statements were made for difficult listening. And in coming to a characterisation and a legal definition of, of the sentences that were being handed down, he said that these crimes were obviously very serious and that they should be denounced, punished, and that others needed to be deterred. And that neither man had shown acceptance nor remorse. And so they, these were the things that were going into sort of his decision-making matrix as he was coming, coming to his ruling.

• 26:43Speaker 03

  So one of the other things Justice Mosse found was that far from being the lookout outside, Steve Fabrizi and Joseph Vicconi were inside the house. Any notion that Steve Fabrizi didn't know Irma was lying on the ground where she was, he rejected. You know, no cupboard doors were open, blocking his view or anything like that. He said the two were communicating as they searched the house. And they would each have had to have stepped over Irma to get into the rest of the house. So all of that was thrown out the window as well.

• 27:20Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah. And I mean, Liz, you say that, you know, this doesn't meet the bar for the, the maximum sentence for, for manslaughter. But 20 years for, for Joseph Vicconi and 16 and a half years for Steve Fabrizi are still significant punishments for that, that act. And I suppose that comes down to the fact that it's, it's not just the manslaughter that they are being sentenced for. It's the, the other acts, the, the assaults, the, the other robberies and the like.

• 27:46Speaker 03

  Yes, that's right. So they were each charged with aggravated burglary, armed robbery, forcible confinement from when they tied up the couple, and a charge of actual bodily harm. And Joseph Vicconi, as you'll recall, was involved in the earlier burglary and found guilty of two charges there as well. That, that was burglary and actual bodily harm for that. So they were given years for each of those crimes as well. Now, when you're sentencing someone, not, it's not all added up in one go. Some things are concurrent, some things are cumulative. But the, the formula that the judge used came out to 16

• 28:31Speaker 03

  and a half years for Steve Fabrizi and 20 years for Joseph Vicconi. Now, one interesting point is that for the manslaughter, Fabrizi got 14 years, but Vicconi only got 13 years and six months. And the reason for that is that Joseph Vicconi is expected to do his time much harder than, than Steve Fabrizi. And that's because he's so ill. And as the judge said, he's almost certain to die in jail because doctors have given him only about 12 months to live.

• 29:11Stephen Stockwell?

  Thank you for breaking that down for us, Liz. James, we've talked a lot about the family through this episode, also through the entire series that we've done here. Did they have much to say following the sentence that was handed down to these two men?

• 29:26Speaker 05

  John Makita has been always very giving. And if you've done any to you on this pod, he's done, will always do a press conference, will always chat to you. You know, he has really carried the sort of public face of all of this, right from the who killed Irma campaign, right until Friday afternoon, when the sentences were handed down. It felt to me as though this was just another point in time, a significant one, but a point in time on the continuum of this life sentence of grief, as he described it. He spoke very well and very powerfully. And he'd obviously thought deeply about what he'd wanted to say, as he has all the way through outside the courts. He held a picture, a framed picture

• 30:07Speaker 05

  of his grandparents. A lot of the family were there. And, you know, there's a, there's a sort of a sadness that comes with it. You might think, oh, this is a, you know, a real inflection point in terms of, well, finally there's justice and there's a sentence. But let's not forget the length of time, you know, as we have said so much in covering this, that it's taken to get here. So yeah, I got the real sense in, in listening to what he had to say and the weariness that they all feel, having gone through this. And this is John speaking outside the court on Friday afternoon.

• 30:41Speaker 04

  So today's sentence can't undo what has happened to my grandparents, but we believe it recognises the seriousness of the crimes and devastating impact that they had on our family. For 26 long years, we asked the one thing, that those responsible be found and be held accountable. Today, this has finally happened. There is no celebration. There is relief and gratitude, but also a deep sadness for everything our family has gone through and lost along the way.

• 31:18Speaker 04

  Today belongs to Irma and Gregor. After 26 years, they finally have justice.

• 31:26Speaker 04

  Our deepest thanks go to ACT policing, the investigators, the forensic experts, the prosecutors and everyone who has refused to give up on our case. And thank you to the Canberra community for standing up with us, for keeping Irma and Gregor's story alive, and when hope was sometimes hard to find.

• 31:50Stephen Stockwell?

  That is Irma's grandson, John Makita, speaking outside court on Friday afternoon following the sentencing of Steve Fabriczy and Joseph Vacconi for the manslaughter of his grandmother in 1999. Liz, is this finally over, or is there a chance of appeal from these men?

• 32:07Speaker 03

  Well, we know that Joseph Vacconi has already lodged an appeal against his conviction. Of course, he has a lot at stake because, as we've just heard, the judge said that he expects him to die in jail. So he's having a last ditch bid to have this overturned. We don't know about Steve Fabriczy yet, that's also entirely on the cards though. So I don't think that it's over, and I think the family recognises that as well.

• 32:40Stephen Stockwell?

  It's so hard for the family to, you know, potentially continue to wait for a conclusion to this saga that's already been running for 25 years. And James, I can really kind of relate to that feeling of, you know, I was imagining this as a real kind of closing chapter in their lives, but it's been going for so long, I suppose it is just this kind of continuance and, you know, hopefully at some point they do get some peace. I'd just like to thank you both for talking us through this. This has been such a long trial, it has been such an interesting story that you've taken us both inside as well, the details of the investigation, the drama of the trial that you've taken us through, and also the insight that you've given us into what the family has been dealing with throughout has been invaluable.

• 33:25Stephen Stockwell?

  So I really appreciate everything you've brought us for the case of the two intruders. Liz, you have officially retired now with the end of this trial, so thank you so much for spending your last working days with us on the case of.

• 33:38Speaker 03

  Oh, thank you, Stocky. And thank you for letting me bring this story to your audience because it's such an important story in Canberra, but also it's a universal story, a story that anybody would be interested in, and also, you know, a terrible story that people should know about.

• 33:58Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, absolutely. It's an awful story, but it's a story of kind of dedication and hope in a way. The way that police kind of carried this on for so many years and, you know, brought this resolution to the Palasics family is really, almost, you know, quite impressive, really. And James Vyver, thank you so much as well for joining us for the case of the two intruders. You have really taken us into the room for this trial, painted an incredible picture of what's unfolded, and also brought a wonderful turn of phrase to the case of.

• 34:28Speaker 05

  Thanks, Stocky. And if I can just finish with a line from one of the family members who gave their impact statements, which I think is a fitting way to end. In looking at the two offenders directly in the eye and sitting in the stand delivering this, he said, "Mr Vacconi, Mr Fabritzi, we refuse to allow the memory of Irma and Gregor to be defined by your violence."

• 34:54Stephen Stockwell?

  James, Liz, thank you so much for joining us for the case of the two intruders. We'll be back in your feed on Thursday with the case of Alan Jones. You can catch that on ABC Listen, the best place to listen to all of the ABC content. And if this is your introduction to the case of the two intruders, I highly recommend going back and checking out the entire series, including a chat with John Makita, Irma's grandson, that Liz and I had. So I would recommend jumping back into that. We'll put a link in the show notes, so you can check that out.

• 35:24Stephen Stockwell?

  The case of the two intruders is produced by ABC Audio Studios and ABC News. It's reported by Elizabeth Byrne and James Vyver, and presented by me, Stephen Stockwell. Our supervising producer is Greg Muller, and our executive producer is Claire Rollinson. This episode was produced on the land of the Nunawal, Namby and Wurundjeri people.